Habib,Mamdouh - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Cameraman

Okay, we're rolling.

0:06

Interviewer

Okay, okay.

0:07

Good afternoon.

0:08

-

Good afternoon.

0:09

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:11

for participating in the "Witness to Guantanamo" project.

0:12

-

I appreciate that.

0:17

Interviewer

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:19

at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba.

0:21

We are hoping to provide you an opportunity

0:24

to tell your story in your own words.

0:26

We are creating an archive of stories

0:30

so that people in America

0:33

and around the world

0:35

will have a better understanding

0:36

of what you and others have endured.

0:38

Future generations must know what happened.

0:42

And by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:44

We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us.

0:48

If at any time during the interview,

0:53

you'd like to take a break, just let us know.

0:54

And if there's anything you say you'd like to remove,

0:57

let us know and we can remove it.

0:59

-

No problem, it's all right.

1:00

Interviewer

And I'd like to begin

1:01

by asking some questions

1:02

like your name and where you're from

1:04

and your, where you're living today,

1:07

and your age and birthdate.

1:10

-

Okay.

1:13

You want me to start with my name?

1:14

My name is Mamdouh Habib.

1:17

M-A-M-D-O-U-H, second name is Habib, H-A-B-I-B.

1:19

Born in Egypt.

1:25

And my age over 50.

1:27

(chuckles)

1:30

My early background, it's too too far, from Palestine.

1:33

My mom from Turkish, Turkish back background so far as well.

1:39

I was told my mom's side was rich people,

1:45

but now, when I born was no one rich, was poor.

1:50

I think they lost money I don't know how.

1:55

Maybe gambling. I don't know.

1:57

But anyway, when I born, wasn't very good money.

1:59

As family we was seven people.

2:03

My family were around, five sisters, two brothers.

2:08

We can afford to survive in a small house.

2:12

And I was study to the high school.

2:16

I left the country.

2:19

I left Egypt and I start to build my life,

2:22

to get married and to be as a human being,

2:25

look after his life by himself.

2:29

I went to too many different country around the world.

2:32

Most of the Arab country

2:36

and most of the Europe countries as well.

2:37

And I stayed in, I was in India and Italy.

2:40

I love Italy.

2:48

I used to train horses.

2:49

I love horse, better than the human being.

2:51

Then I ended to come in Australia

2:56

and I start the different life as I get married.

2:58

And I got on my wife and I have four kids.

3:02

And this how I start in Australia.

3:06

Interviewer

Can you tell us when you came to Australia?

3:09

-

Actually, was a big decision to come in Australia.

3:11

I was in Italy in the same time,

3:16

Australian, Italy government give me a good opportunity

3:18

to have Italian citizen and I have American guy,

3:22

who buy a horse from my boss,

3:25

his name Angelo Bazolin.

3:28

I never forgot his name.

3:30

And he was a nice man.

3:31

And, I have opportunity to go, I think Chicago

3:32

to (indistinct) the horse and the guy,

3:37

he bought it from the United States.

3:41

He offered me to give me a job

3:43

and citizen in the United States

3:44

if I train his horses well.

3:46

And my sister, she asked me to come in Australia

3:49

because I have my sister and my brother here.

3:52

And I decided to come Australia,

3:54

see my sister.

3:57

The money I spend it all the way.

3:58

It's very hard.

4:00

This country the soon you come

4:01

you can get out of it.

4:02

And you're lucky if you came out because it's big,

4:04

big amount of money to come.

4:06

If you are a person to come for visit,

4:08

and people were working all his life,

4:11

a ticket and life is expensive.

4:13

And I buy the ticket and I came and I couldn't go back

4:16

because I spent all the money I have.

4:20

And I met with my wife.

4:22

Interviewer

You met your wife in Australia?

4:25

-

Yeah, actually her sister, she was married

4:26

with my brother and, and they divorced and we continue.

4:30

(chuckles)

4:37

Interviewer

And when did you come to Australia?

4:38

-

'82

4:40

Interviewer

And where do you live now?

4:43

I live in Guernica.

4:45

And I start, actually around Australia,

4:47

I was Sydney,

4:50

only first, I used to live in an area called The Bright,

4:51

then Meadowbank.

4:55

Then I moved to Greenville.

4:57

Then I went to area called Blacktown.

4:58

Then I came to Guernica area.

5:02

And this is where I am now.

5:05

Interviewer

And, do you know when you were first

5:08

picked up, what day that was?

5:13

When you were first arrested?

5:15

-

Oh, I never been arrested totally.

5:17

I don't like the word if arrested

5:19

because arrest is someone done something wrong.

5:20

Give the police or give anyone a chance to put him in jail

5:23

or take him away.

5:29

And I never been given anybody a chance to arrest me.

5:30

I haven't done anything wrong.

5:36

I call this, a kidnapping.

5:38

First time I been kidnapping Pakistan, I was in bus

5:39

and the people kidnapped me wasn't for me.

5:43

It was two young boys from Shaman.

5:47

I was in my way back to Australia.

5:50

And was the bus was a stopped

5:53

by

5:57

civilian people.

6:00

I think agencies and these people

6:01

working for United state

6:06

and the other country agencies.

6:08

They point people,

6:10

buying European and buy Middle Eastern and Arabs.

6:13

They decide like,

6:21

I believe this has happened long, long time ago

6:24

when people, stealing people make them as a slave.

6:27

Now, the time has come back again as in

6:31

the new it's 2004,

6:35

when 2001, they start kidnapping a human being,

6:40

make experiment.

6:44

And that's what they did to me.

6:46

And wasn't this time it's not only me.

6:48

They, a lot of people being kidnapped

6:51

and I'm aware of it because this is not first.

6:53

I was in, in Pakistan.

6:56

And I was seeing it's a big issue

6:59

in front of my own eye.

7:02

Pakistan tried to kidnapping someone

7:04

who is rich person is named Gatony

7:06

and they shoot him front of my own eye.

7:09

This is,

7:12

it's a big story.

7:13

I don't wanna go with you so much because

7:14

it's gonna be long.

7:17

This is in my book.

7:18

I think you can read it, make you more clear

7:19

what is about try to give you short of my experiences.

7:21

That's what I'm telling you experience

7:26

has stood up for these boys,

7:27

because I see the Pakistani agency

7:28

killing someone in front of my own eye

7:31

and stealing the money and to try to do a lot of issues,

7:34

not legal.

7:39

And that's why I stood up for this young boys,

7:40

to help them out.

7:42

And-

7:44

Interviewer

You know what the date it was?

7:46

-

The date I supposed to take the flight

7:47

1st of October, 2000,

7:52

2000, 2000, I think first 2001, 2001.

7:58

Yeah, it's supposed to have the fly,

8:05

1st of October, 2001.

8:07

This, no my fly, 1st of October,

8:12

4th of October, the tickets, all right?

8:15

I've booked for 4th of October to catch the fly.

8:18

And I got a copy of the ticket and all this,

8:22

but I have a three days to stay and catch it.

8:25

We catch the bus from a quite

8:30

I think the 1st of October or the end of November.

8:36

Interviewer

September?

8:44

-

It's September. Yeah, September.

8:45

This is before October anyway.

8:47

And they,

8:49

one day wake me up,

8:52

it's a three or four days missing.

8:54

And until today in the government,

8:56

they never mentioned what day I was kidnapped.

8:58

And this is to, to make you,

9:01

if you go on the records and this, I know that,

9:03

but people doesn't know that,

9:07

but I know that very well because the three days

9:08

from the 1st of October to three of October,

9:12

what the government here in Australia said,

9:15

"We are aware of Habib, has been arrest."

9:17

And 5th of October,

9:22

and some of the documents say four of October,

9:23

some of the cones say two October,

9:26

but then very national national security say two October

9:29

or three October.

9:33

The three days, because this agency

9:34

is work separately in Pakistan.

9:38

The three days I was in the secret jail,

9:41

and this is where the market of the human being to sell.

9:44

Now where I was, it's a market, like auction.

9:50

The sitting auction for me and the two boys,

9:55

and appliance before they release me out.

9:58

They make sell for American, Australia whole country.

10:01

I got this three boys.

10:06

I got that is very nice European people.

10:08

You can sit him up, whatever you want.

10:11

This is Habib.

10:14

This Ibrahim.

10:15

This is Bakim.

10:16

Say what you want.

10:17

Now they check it up our record.

10:19

My record was America is nothing.

10:22

I was until in 93.

10:24

I was in America because I have my family there.

10:27

I was protest for one guy,

10:31

his name Said Mossein,

10:34

the one he was accused for (indistinct).

10:35

This the leader of the Jewish Wilson Inate.

10:38

I was stood up for this guy and the camera got me

10:41

when I was in the, in the case running in court.

10:45

And they tried to set me up and this time

10:49

put me in a good position to find

10:52

as this person is a big thud worth how much now?

10:57

Now-

11:00

Interviewer

How much were you?

11:01

Do you know how much you were sold for?

11:02

-

I was, by Egyptian told me I was they paying,

11:04

the American paying the Egyptian 10 million.

11:07

Interviewer

10 million?

11:10

-

10 million.

Interviewer

For you?

11:12

-

For me to take me to Egypt

11:13

This is America.

11:17

This not Pakistani,

11:18

Pakistani is from different money.

11:19

Now,

11:23

every Asian take his money.

11:24

Now there is you have the Pakistani,

11:25

the first Asian they took me.

11:27

They paid the Pakistani to take me from Pakistani.

11:30

Now the Egyptian to do the second job,

11:35

for torture, coaching,

11:38

to keep me there for few months,

11:39

the America pay him to some amount of money, to get some...

11:42

Interviewer

And do you know why that happened?

11:45

-

The guarantee I know why.

11:49

The situation is,

11:53

it's very clear to the world.

11:54

America wanna accuse every single country,

11:55

they are against United state.

12:01

And America have to protect themselves from the world.

12:04

Now to protect themselves from the world,

12:08

they have to accuse everyone in the world,

12:10

to try to bombing United State.

12:13

All right, and this is what happened.

12:17

Now to do this,

12:19

how they gonna do it?

12:21

There have to be something big happen in United State,

12:22

and some people have to give evidence.

12:26

We yes we wanna blowing up America.

12:28

Yes we gonna do this to United State.

12:32

Yes we done that.

12:36

All I am, who is Habib?

12:37

Habib is a person from Australia,

12:39

he is, have a community,

12:41

he have a lot of people listen to him,

12:44

he helping people refugee in Australia, is important person.

12:46

He's been aggressive in an Anti-American for sometimes

12:50

in Australia,

12:57

he's too dangerous for us

12:59

and who's behind Mr.Habib?

13:00

Who know?

13:01

And now this guy is in our hands, he try,

13:02

he involve was, September 11.

13:06

It's not only me,

13:10

I got a lot of people

13:11

from different countries same situation.

13:12

Interviewer

What kind of work did you do

13:14

in Australia before?

13:15

-

well I was,

13:17

I was, I have a company, a security company,

13:19

and I have a restaurant in

13:22

Lakemba area and I have a cleaning business.

13:26

I was going very well.

13:33

I was helping the community.

13:34

I was helping people refugee,

13:36

come from, they put him in the detention center.

13:38

I was against the

13:41

discrimination and I was against

13:44

the people is doesn't do the right thing

13:47

with the human rights.

13:49

Interviewer

And did any Americans speak to you

13:51

before you were sent to Egypt?

13:53

-

Oh yeah.

13:55

The people done interview with me

13:56

and nothing to do with Australia.

13:58

Australia haven't been done anything.

13:59

That's why I'm saying, in the beginning,

14:02

cause this is in the film, it's different.

14:05

What I try to tell you in the beginning,

14:07

when I was kidnapped, I was sold by Pakistani.

14:11

They hand me over and-

14:15

Interviewer

To who?

14:17

-

To who I don't know.

14:18

Who paying the full amount to the Pakistani,

14:19

I have no idea.

14:22

But, so until now I have no idea.

14:23

But there is, I was informed,

14:26

I was by the Egyptian

14:29

they paying $10 million to keep me there for sometimes

14:31

and torture.

14:35

So the Pakistani, when I went Pakistani,

14:37

this is because they taken time.

14:40

They transfer us,

14:42

it's not transferring, like someone is stealing drugs

14:44

or transfer something is not legal.

14:49

We are covering all the time,

14:53

they put us in a van,

14:55

they put us, driving and like hiding something

14:57

from place to place for 25 days.

15:01

They keep moving us from different places.

15:04

Interviewer

In Pakistani?

15:05

-

Yes.

Until they take us in a place Islamabad,

15:07

and Australian Council, I saw him.

15:11

His name Alistro Adam.

15:13

He come in and he didn't see me first time.

15:15

This Australian cause he gave me his business car,

15:18

And I tell him "I am for Australia,

15:21

I come in to see a set up.

15:23

Why I'm here.

15:26

You should not come in to see me.

15:27

You should come and take me out of this corruption place."

15:29

And he laugh and he say,

15:34

"You're never gonna get out of here.

15:35

You're gonna go back to Europe where you come from before.

15:38

You go to back to Egypt."

15:40

I wasn't believing what he saying.

15:42

And I said this I say,

15:45

now the world is being,

15:46

because in 25 days, a lot of things happen.

15:47

The war starts in Afghanistan,

15:50

I wasn't know the war start.

15:52

And a lot of sinkers after September 11 and all this time,

15:53

I was under secret jail,

15:57

I have no idea what's going on in the world.

15:59

Interviewer

What did you do during those 25 days?

16:01

-

I didn't see nothing.

16:02

(indistinct) is, was a winter at first issue,

16:04

was...

16:07

(sighs)

16:09

Is a crime.

16:11

Say I was in the cells underground.

16:12

It's a torture

16:17

Interviewer

There's something called a dark prison.

16:18

Did you ever hear of that?

16:20

-

Dark prison is too many different dark prison.

16:24

They have dark prison to keep you just for some time,

16:28

until you come interrogation.

16:31

They have dark jail, they just use the torture.

16:32

They have a dark jail just reducing the lights,

16:37

and they have a dark jail, they using the sounds.

16:41

They have a dark jail to brainwash you.

16:45

All right?

16:50

And I've been through all this, I know all this.

16:51

They have some of them in Pakistan,

16:53

they have some of them in Egypt

16:55

and I've been through all this stuff.

16:57

It's too many different of dark jails.

16:59

Interviewer

And when you were sent to Egypt,

17:02

did you know you were going to Egypt, somewhat?

17:04

-

I wasn't believe this is gonna happen.

17:07

I say to be honest,

17:09

like say if you sit down

17:11

and you're home and you find somebody,

17:15

come in and you find yourself as like a

17:19

it's a dream is no,

17:25

I say it's a bad dream.

17:26

No way is gonna happen but it happened.

17:29

I wasn't believe it, he says no chance.

17:32

Interviewer

Had you met any Americans by that time?

17:34

-

Oh yeah, well what happened is the first time,

17:36

when we come to Islamabad,

17:38

they promise us all the time to remove me

17:40

from place to place,

17:43

because they doesn't want me to fight them.

17:44

'Cause I'll fight for my life.

17:46

Because these people is kidnap me.

17:47

I wanna run away, I wanna do something

17:49

to get rid of these people to go home.

17:51

And every time they promise they say,

17:53

"We could be for some reason for your safety,

17:56

American kidnapping people

17:59

would try to protect you from American."

18:00

They lying to us.

18:02

Until we go Islamabad they say,

18:03

we going home now,

18:05

because we talk with your ambassador,

18:07

and he came in to see you,

18:09

and he gonna send you home.

18:11

And I wonder and I see the guy,

18:13

his name Alistro Adam,

18:15

from Australian embassy in Islamabad,

18:16

and he give me his business card then he say,

18:21

"This is what we going to do."

18:23

Interviewer

What questions did the Americans ask you?

18:30

-

Alright,

18:32

now that's the first day that guy he come and told me

18:33

And he told me, "You have to cooperate

18:36

because America control the world."

18:38

As I said in the beginning.

18:39

And I was believing because

18:41

there's no way what happened has happened.

18:42

And I say, "You cooperate with American,

18:46

there's a way, no way out."

18:49

Then the next day have two female,

18:53

and one man is still female.

18:56

I think one of them is CIA

18:58

sorry for the language is a bitch criminal.

18:59

She is a criminal.

19:03

She's a CIA a woman,

19:04

that's how I was informed by Australian,

19:06

and by the Egyptian about this woman.

19:08

She's speak very good Egyptian,

19:10

and she's American 100%,

19:13

her accent is 100% American.

19:16

And she is the one asking me.

19:19

It's not really questions,

19:21

is they try to set me up.

19:24

They try to say, I am a terrorist,

19:25

and I'm going to hijack fly,

19:28

and I am going to do this, I wasn't.

19:32

I wasn't agree with anything, I was laughing.

19:34

And,

19:38

but they have everything, they have my luggage,

19:39

they have my document,

19:43

they been already in my house,

19:44

they been...

19:45

The way she talking to me,

19:47

like she know everyone in my family.

19:49

That's means during the 25 day they keep me there,

19:52

there was already,

19:55

done good search about my life

19:58

from my family in Egypt and my family in America,

20:00

and my family in Australia.

20:02

Interviewer

Could you just confirm,

20:05

are you a citizen are you an Australian citizen or?

20:06

-

Yeah.

20:08

Interviewer

Or a citizen.

20:09

-

since 82.

Interviewer

And did, why did they,

20:13

why did they say that about you?

20:15

-

What do you mean?

20:18

Interviewer

That you were involved in 911,

20:18

Why did they say that?

20:21

-

They have to find something to keep me, all right?

20:25

Now I didn't admit anything to them,

20:30

and that's why in the time I was in Pakistan

20:34

I was laughing at that people,

20:39

because I said there's gonna be end.

20:40

There's no way they're gonna keep me here for nothing.

20:43

And it's no way.

20:46

Because I am guarantee myself,

20:51

I haven't done anything wrong to anybody.

20:52

And I was really believe something's gonna happen,

20:56

they're gonna release me because

21:03

they can only way to do it,

21:05

to get rid of me to kill me,

21:07

or they gonna release me,

21:10

because I haven't done anything wrong.

21:12

But if they wanna get rid of the evidence,

21:14

the only way they're going to kill me

21:16

and I had to face that I'm innocent person

21:17

if I die I will be in heaven.

21:19

That's what I believe.

21:21

And the time in Pakistan,

21:23

they can't get anything from me

21:24

because I haven't done anything to get through.

21:26

But they try to accuse me,

21:29

or they give me case to say up myself say,

21:31

"Now with that mistake was you."

21:34

But when you go back Australia what you're gonna say,

21:36

is that I gonna say you what you did,

21:38

you kidnap me, I've been tortured for months.

21:40

I haven't done anything wrong say now,

21:44

no good.

21:46

It's not gonna work with these people.

21:47

Now I know the people's faces and I know the names.

21:50

What they try to do they try to brainwash me

21:53

to get me out of what I have,

21:56

to get me a new person as a terrorist,

21:59

or a bad person,

22:02

to send me back with bad record.

22:05

Because people are gonna believe,

22:07

oh I'm don't have baby,

22:08

it wasn't Australia,

22:09

it was helping refugee people.

22:10

And in this time, they try to set up case

22:12

against me here because all agency,

22:16

they work together.

22:19

Now in Australia, we Egyptian

22:20

but Egypt cant do much about it because

22:22

I left Egypt a young boy he's,

22:24

yeah a guy he was 16 year old,

22:27

he left the country, terrorists?

22:29

They can't do anything they accuse me

22:31

I was trying to kill Sadat.

22:33

It's not gonna work

22:37

because when the Sadat die, I was young person.

22:38

Who bought this guy he gonna kill Sadat?

22:41

Who's he?

22:43

And I was this time in Italy as well.

22:44

Now it's nothing to set me up and Egypt,

22:47

and now in America,

22:51

or what I did is nothing I was protest.

22:52

And I was just visit United States.

22:55

I have a family in New York and I just visit

22:57

and people make protest against

23:00

what happened in a court case.

23:02

Wasn't any terrorism anything to do with this.

23:04

And, they couldn't find anything.

23:08

But my reputation is,

23:10

shoot him as, give me bad person,

23:12

because he been was Omar, Abra, Amanda, the blind Sheikh.

23:16

He was this, he training gunfire in Australia,

23:20

he has trained people,

23:23

he went Afghanistan for few times,

23:24

he being trained secretly and they make names.

23:27

But they want me to admit it,

23:31

they want a witness about it,

23:33

but they have to set up all this,

23:34

but how they going to set it up?

23:36

And that's why they keep me longer

23:38

to try to set up all this.

23:40

Interviewer

And why do you think they sent you to Egypt?

23:42

-

Well because,

23:45

they have, what they gonna do to me?

23:46

They have the only corruption country

23:49

was as a leader and running Islamabad agencies,

23:54

only Egypt or someone else I can't say

24:00

but Egypt is more secure because

24:02

they can't take me to show them because I'm not sure the is.

24:05

The end of story is they find me there

24:08

or they trying to set me up in Egypt.

24:10

The end of story in Egypt.

24:13

Well they gonna say "Oh he was..."

24:14

And this what they try to set it up.

24:16

He tried to do a terrorist attack in Egypt

24:19

and we pick him up.

24:21

We shoot him.

24:23

He's dead.

24:25

But doesn't work, because what happened

24:26

the guys,

24:29

the the two young boys from Germany,

24:30

has been released.

24:32

And they released some information to the media

24:34

in Germany and say,

24:36

"This guy he was with us in a bus."

24:37

And I haven't done anything wrong.

24:40

And he disappeared.

24:42

And how come if I was in Pakistan,

24:45

and the same time America say,

24:47

"I will go on to do a terrorist attack in Egypt."

24:49

Or in the same time he say,

24:52

"Oh he was in Afghanistan fighting."

24:53

It's not gonna work.

24:55

Interviewer

Could you describe

24:57

how you were sent to Egypt?

24:58

-

It's really stressing, but I'll tell you it's,

25:01

a really really stressing, all right?

25:08

They sent me naked and it was nappies.

25:11

They closed my mouth,

25:16

they put some cotton in my mouth.

25:17

Put a stick tape across my eye, it was a stick tape.

25:19

They put it, cover was a black bag

25:23

and they put (indistinct)

25:26

and on top of it they put something in my ear

25:28

to not listen to anything.

25:30

I was like a spring roll, they all around chain around me.

25:31

I can't say much.

25:36

Interviewer

Were the Americans involved in this?

25:36

-

Three country, this country Australia, America,

25:38

Pakistan, Egyptian.

25:42

Interviewer

And when you got to Egypt

25:43

do you know where you were taken?

25:45

-

No but I know it's Cairo, when I was inside

25:48

because the people work inside the bag they carry

25:54

but for some time I wasn't believe,

25:57

I was thinking I'm in drugs.

25:59

And maybe they try to make me believe I'm in Egypt.

26:02

Because I wasn't believe, is long say,

26:05

because I was like shocked when they take me in the fly

26:08

and the way they done it to me

26:11

and why they transfer me is incredible.

26:13

It's not human.

26:16

This people I'm not call them as a human being,

26:18

is the way they done it to me and they move me to the fly.

26:20

And I wasn't believe it to be.

26:24

Interviewer

When you were injured,

26:27

were the Americans present?

26:28

-

Oh yeah, the American

26:30

like the leader the people they, in control.

26:32

It's not, it's not, it's not, it's not Egypt.

26:36

Interviewer

How do you know that?

26:39

-

The people when American, say Egyptian is not in control.

26:40

Australia is not in control.

26:47

But they have to be there.

26:49

Like now you are in charge of this group.

26:52

Like you're filming and you tell these people what to do.

26:56

You pay him to do this for you.

27:00

You make a contract to tell him what to do.

27:03

And these people they have to work as what they're told.

27:07

They know everything they do it.

27:11

They are in the hotel, he pay and he give you the room,

27:14

the man who have the camera,

27:18

he do what you told him to do.

27:19

The lady she's clean up

27:21

to put the chair and set up everything,

27:23

they know about.

27:25

They know they doing like their job.

27:26

But who employed them to do it, is the United States.

27:30

It's America.

27:33

Interviewer

Did Americans talk to you

27:34

while you were in Egypt?

27:35

-

Yeah, it's all in them they talk to me.

27:36

Interviewer

And do you know what questions they ask you?

27:38

-

There's no questions.

27:39

They have no questions to ask.

27:41

They tell me what to say.

27:43

Interviewer

What did they tell you to say?

27:46

-

They tell me, I have to be a witness against people,

27:47

to protect myself to go home.

27:52

Or I have to say, "Yes I was a stupid,

27:56

and I tried to do something wrong

28:01

and I'm sorry for what I did."

28:03

There's two way, to be a witness against somebody,

28:07

or to be accusing yourself,

28:11

and it was a stupid in this time and that you agree.

28:14

Interviewer

And do you know what agencies were involved?

28:19

-

Listen, its too many.

28:21

The CIA and FBI is just both of them they all involved.

28:23

But the man the main the run the business is CIA.

28:29

They fly by CIA,

28:33

they own the control of all this things

28:34

because now I discover all this stuff recently too,

28:37

because the people working together,

28:42

the more in control the CIA.

28:45

FBI they have a limit,

28:48

but the CIA because all the dirty business,

28:51

the fly to go and country to country, the kidnapping,

28:53

the torture, all the CIA business.

28:58

Interviewer

Could you...

29:01

-

FBI is just to come to take his right information.

29:02

He have a limits.

29:08

Interviewer

And I know it's stressful,

29:11

but can you tell us a little bit

29:13

about how you are treated in Egypt?

29:14

I know you've written about it and you've talked about it.

29:20

-

Egypt it's not mercy, all right?

29:27

That's why some of the CIA official is,

29:29

they given evidence to I think one of DVD,

29:35

they've given evidence.

29:40

And they say it's a free country,

29:42

the American youth, Syria, Jordan, Egypt.

29:44

They say America use this Jordan to take information.

29:50

If you want a good information, good result of information,

29:56

take your victim or take your whoever, whatever you call it.

29:59

Take him to Jordan to take information.

30:07

If you wanna a good torture and result from torture,

30:09

take him to Syria.

30:15

If you want somebody and they want him back again,

30:17

send them to Egypt.

30:20

And is it true, since I have forgot the name of the guy.

30:23

He is from CIA official.

30:25

Interviewer

Did you see See,

30:28

-

American.

30:29

Interviewer

other Americans in Egypt?

30:30

-

Oh yeah. Plenty.

30:31

Say it's American. (sighs)

30:32

I know a lot of American.

30:35

And until, until today,

30:37

this people go and Egyptian agency

30:41

and they have really communication.

30:44

And I was until before last time I go to Egypt

30:46

and saw in the Egyptian government.

30:50

I wasn't from truly Australian agency

30:52

to not suing Omar Suleiman,

30:56

the head of the agency in Egypt,

30:58

because he's a good relation between him

31:01

and the United State.

31:04

And then in the United States this mean Australia aside.

31:06

The agency, the biggest head for,

31:09

for America use is Omar Suleiman his agency.

31:12

And I saw him.

31:15

Now I put him, excuse me,

31:16

I have a case against him in Egypt.

31:19

Interviewer

And how long were you in Egypt?

31:23

-

I have there, they keep me for six months.

31:26

Interviewer

And did you think you'd ever get out?

31:29

-

I wasn't believed we're gonna be survive.

31:31

Interviewer

You didn't?

31:34

-

Noway?

This is why I was fighting say six,

31:36

six months of my life in Egypt, I was every day, a fight.

31:39

Interviewer

Why is it?

31:47

-

A fight was a god to die, say a fight to them, to,

31:48

I want him to take his life or he take my life.

31:52

Because I believe it's, it's not, it's no way out.

31:56

Interviewer

And how did you, how did you endure?

32:01

How did you cope between those six years?

32:03

-

This is, is to believe in God.

32:06

This is, is,

32:09

is I had the faith

32:10

and I believe God is very close to everybody.

32:14

And if you're innocent person, is God protect you.

32:18

And I did, I did protect from God.

32:22

Interviewer

What religion are you?

32:24

I'm Muslim.

32:26

Interviewer

And you, did you get a Quran

32:27

while you were injured?

32:29

(scoffs)

32:30

-

You believe in it or not.

32:31

The first time I'm alive,

32:35

I believe some people,

32:37

they, doesn't put the Quran per place.

32:39

They have a missing words of the Quran.

32:42

They want to give it to people inside.

32:46

They make fun, if they are Muslim as a name,

32:48

but they never even,

32:51

I believe this people as a Muslim.

32:52

They bunch of criminal,

32:56

they don't respect any religion

32:57

and everyone they're Omar, Ahmed, Mohammed

32:59

but who care?

33:02

It's doesn't matter.

33:05

It doesn't matter what religion I am,

33:06

the matter is, what do you belief?

33:08

Are you honest belief?

33:12

What's your belief or you don't believe in?

33:14

I say,

33:17

if you are a human being, a Jewish, a Christian or Muslim,

33:18

a Buddhist, whatever you believe for your own benefit.

33:24

But the benefit is, I get it from you the treatment.

33:28

When you treat me well,

33:34

you present your religion and in a way who you are.

33:37

A lot of Isis, what's is it?

33:42

It's so many people as a hypocrite Muslim.

33:44

If David Hicks, he gone in Islam.

33:47

For how long?

33:50

It's sometimes he learned,

33:51

he know Quran better me.

33:54

He know the Quran three quarters of the Quran by heart.

33:56

But what he's saying now, he say the Osama Bin Laden

34:01

he's an idiot.

34:05

He was next door and he loved him.

34:06

He was leaving with him until today.

34:09

I'm not gonna say Osama bin Laden

34:12

is a bad person or is a good person.

34:14

Nobody know what is attention until you listen,

34:17

you hear from himself.

34:21

What he tell you,

34:23

you have to believe what he's doing himself.

34:25

I have to present it.

34:29

But because the government said that I have to follow it.

34:30

You a man, I live with these people.

34:33

You're being pay by the his home.

34:35

They call it is, like here in Australia.

34:39

They have center link.

34:42

You know what center link, the people paying you.

34:45

If you can't afford to work all this,

34:47

they have a similar thing in Afghanistan.

34:50

Who pays this people in Afghanistan?

34:53

They come from Osama Bin Laden's money.

34:55

People will not work on employment.

34:58

David Hicks was paying every week or every month.

35:00

I see with my own eye under his pillow.

35:04

He can say, you're a lawyer.

35:07

I want to face him.

35:08

He'd tell me your lying.

35:10

This is all his money.

35:11

And he came in with a story,

35:13

he say Osama Bin Laden I am he is gone.

35:14

He used to pay you for years.

35:16

Don't be hypocrite.

35:19

Islam as person is not acceptable the Islam to be hypocrite

35:20

or two faces.

35:26

I believe you are a good person until you prove you wrong,

35:28

you are not good person.

35:33

I can't accuse you for bad person

35:36

until I see you do something.

35:39

You done it.

35:41

Interviewer

And how do you know about David Hicks?

35:44

-

Ah, David Hicks.

35:46

I was,

35:49

I saw him first time in 2000.

35:51

What happened?

35:55

I've been harassing by Australian as you

35:56

and the Federal Police.

35:58

Because America was planning to sometimes ago to,

36:02

to attack Afghanistan and they want a people advertise it.

36:07

They want a people opinion.

36:12

All right.

36:15

They wanna know what's going on around the world

36:16

because America doesn't disturb anyone wanna go war.

36:18

Doesn't disturb you just to jump in

36:22

like I gonna across the river.

36:24

I don't know how far I've got my neck.

36:25

I have go down there,

36:27

no they wanna check up what's before they start,

36:31

what's gonna happen.

36:36

And now they've been looking around what happened to me.

36:37

I know too much.

36:42

And that's why David Hicks when I left Australia,

36:44

I have a business to looking for.

36:49

I used to try to find any in the beginning

36:51

to get out of Australia because I feel fully racism.

36:55

To me I feel the stress,

36:59

I was sick, I lost my business.

37:01

They make me look.

37:04

They put me in pressure and I was really sick

37:05

and tired of it.

37:07

And I wanna find my life.

37:09

And I want, I told my wife, we're gonna go anywhere.

37:11

I go to Asia, I went to Egypt.

37:15

Egypt is the same system.

37:16

We try to find the,

37:19

you see someone sick and tired of people around him.

37:19

They wanna go somewhere else fresh.

37:22

And I've been in a process to do it.

37:25

I went first time Pakistan,

37:29

and I went Egypt.

37:30

I went Emirates and different countries

37:32

to step first step.

37:34

And when I was in Pakistan, because by myself,

37:35

I tried to find the cheapest way to live.

37:38

They have a house as they call (indistinct)

37:42

this houses like a Dow,

37:44

where people didn't know what is.

37:46

They have a people advertising the Islam.

37:48

They have houses,

37:51

so many of these houses in Pakistan.

37:52

And this (indistinct) run by Pakistani government.

37:55

All right.

38:00

These houses, they doesn't,

38:02

you know pay a cent to live there for food or sleep.

38:04

And people advise me say,

38:10

"Oh, if you wanna go Pakistan free."

38:11

Because people would go from mosque to mosque say,

38:13

you don't have to go mosque, just to go in the house.

38:14

So this house is,

38:17

they feed you and they give you the room to sleep.

38:18

Laying out once the area was the hole.

38:24

And I went to one of these houses,

38:28

was David Hicks stay in this house in 2000.

38:31

And it was his (indistinct)

38:37

And on me, it was him.

38:41

He was to study Quran.

38:44

I saw him for about six, seven hours on my time.

38:48

Because I went there about to in the afternoon

38:51

or maybe mid-day.

38:53

And I sit with him was the one guy from Saudi Arabia

38:58

his name Ahmed, until at night 10 o'clock.

39:01

He lift his sleigh bed because next day

39:05

he was sent to study, university Islam in (indistinct)

39:07

the (indistinct) to study.

39:14

And he was like against fully Afghanistan.

39:17

He called him a stupid, not religious.

39:21

And he's against Osama Bin Laden, against Taliban.

39:26

And he have really give a lot of comment about Afghanistan.

39:30

They said this, these people Kafir non Muslim.

39:35

And I was against what he said,

39:42

because so why you have decided about somebody

39:43

you never believe was sinner,

39:47

I live with, I was there and come back,

39:49

he doesn't like the life and came back to

39:51

(indistinct) because he feels (indistinct)

39:54

is a good people and they didn't do anything

39:57

And he, he wants to fight for Kashmir,

40:00

the Indian people.

40:04

And I wasn't really believe I was thinking

40:07

his as official or he worked for some Asian things.

40:12

Cause the way he talk is openly,

40:16

and he gets too much different issues.

40:18

I was for him in 2000, I saw him in this house.

40:24

About 10 o'clock,

40:28

he went to sleep and I want to see this guy.

40:29

We went for a coffee and I wasn't really

40:32

have a good feeling about him.

40:33

But he mentions this day about some people in Australia,

40:39

one of them, they call Balal Ghazal.

40:42

This guy is being accused here in Australia

40:45

for the tried to blow it up McDonald and Lebanon.

40:47

But some make you say it's, that's what I say.

40:50

In the beginning of this show,

40:55

the government love a terrorist.

40:59

They want a terrorist business running,

41:01

because this guy is named Balal Ghazal,

41:03

he's been protected even

41:05

by Australian agencies as you,

41:08

he was accused for attacking McDonald and Lebanon

41:11

and blew it up.

41:15

Now he's out of jail.

41:16

The, as you go in in 2009 or seven, given evidence, he said,

41:18

he's a good friendship with us the officials.

41:25

And-

41:33

Interviewer

Was Jack Thomas around at that time too?

41:34

-

Jack Thomas.

41:36

What I find out from David first time,

41:40

when I come back in Australia, I got so much,

41:42

they mentioned about some people,

41:46

but he doesn't give me names,

41:47

but the name, he gives it to me Balal Ghazal.

41:48

And Balal Ghazal, he's here in Lakemba in Sydney,

41:54

said this guy from different city

41:58

and how come he knows Balal Ghazal,

42:01

but Balal Ghazal he was with him in the house

42:05

and had promised he wanted to send him

42:10

to get married at his sister.

42:11

That's what David Hicks thinks told me.

42:13

And when I asked Balal Ghazal,

42:15

people know him in Lakemba, I don't him much.

42:17

And they say they have a different one, but I was,

42:21

I was believed it's this day, if it takes over Jack Thomas,

42:24

I wasn't know Jack Thomas.

42:27

But when I go a second time in 2000, in Afghanistan,

42:29

I see Jack Thomas, myself.

42:34

He's a bigger mama, he look at taller Benny, he's a leader.

42:38

He have a group of people behind him security.

42:42

And he didn't wanna talk to me.

42:47

And David Hicks said, Oh, he said, "Do you know these guy?"

42:49

I said "No."

42:52

Now is this guy, but he looks white.

42:53

It's not really Afghan.

42:56

He said, this is Australian.

42:58

And I said, "Can I talk to him?"

42:59

He said, "No."

43:01

He said he doesn't trust you.

43:02

And for his protection, he can't talk to you.

43:05

And i say, "Why he talked to you?"

43:09

He said, "Because I know him, even from Australia."

43:10

And said, well, what's,

43:14

what's the protection.

43:16

I said, well, he doesn't want to talk to you.

43:18

And for security.

43:21

So, all right.

43:24

And when I noticed,

43:26

because as you went to try to employ me in Pakistan,

43:29

he showed me his photo and another lady,

43:33

her name Robbie Hutchison.

43:37

She was Australian lady.

43:39

She was in Afghanistan for maybe six years or 10 years.

43:40

She's dead.

43:44

And her kids and everything makes sense after it.

43:45

Interviewer

What was she doing there?

43:51

-

She was a nurse.

43:53

Interviewer

Working for who?

43:55

-

I think you should read her book, "Arabi Hatchson."

43:58

What do they call her book.

44:03

I don't remember her book.

44:05

What they call it is it's, "Hidden Australia."

44:06

It was her book she has been released.

44:08

And this, this light as you given me her photo and her son,

44:10

his name Mustapha.

44:15

And also a guy, his name, Matthew Stewart.

44:16

Why? Why are you always after me?

44:23

Because they give me information

44:27

and that's why they send me in Egypt too.

44:28

They give me a lot of information.

44:30

Cause they're tried to employ me and I had I refuse

44:33

and I recorded when I talk with Andrea,

44:36

I record what they asked me for.

44:40

And they scared if I go back and I release this information,

44:42

they're going to be in trouble.

44:45

Interviewer

Any information you've got from David Hicks

44:46

and Jack Thomas.

44:48

And would you like to help us.

44:49

-

That's the information I got at later on.

44:50

Now from Jack Thomas,

44:53

Jack Thomas, I got his information from David Hicks.

44:55

But the,

44:58

what matters to you were the guy,

45:00

he's still now, until today.

45:01

He's a military officer from Australia.

45:03

He fighting now until now in Afghanistan

45:06

against United States of America and he's Australian.

45:09

He's a military.

45:11

His name Mathew Stewart.

45:13

When I came in Australia,

45:16

they showed him a photo, someone released in video.

45:18

And I say, I stood up for Afghanistan.

45:22

And I gonna fight against America.

45:25

And I gonna fight against every single American,

45:27

coming Afghanistan and Australian official said,

45:29

"Oh, this sounds like a Britain."

45:33

But this, his photo, give it to me.

45:37

When I was in Afghanistan and Pakistan

45:40

by as the official when they tried to employ me,

45:43

they gave me this photo and I was surprised as you

45:46

and the Australian media.

45:50

So this guy, he looks like he is a Britain.

45:51

And now we have no idea about him.

45:58

If you ask Australian official now

45:59

or Australian government about Mathew Stewart,

46:01

they're going to say,

46:03

"We'll have no idea."

46:04

But this guy he's in a military official.

46:06

He went to Afghanistan in 2001,

46:09

he fight against United States and Australia,

46:12

he was a military who was in Indonesia,

46:15

what they call as Estimo.

46:18

And because the corruption of the military

46:23

and what happened, sexual stuff, and all this,

46:25

he left and he ran away.

46:28

He went up Afghanistan.

46:30

Interviewer

Did you ever meet John Walker Land?

46:33

He was the American (indistinct)

46:36

-

Yes. The white guy.

46:39

The big one. Yes.

46:41

Interviewer

Where did you meet him?

46:42

-

In Kandahar.

46:44

Interviewer

How did you meet him?

46:46

-

In the kitchen.

46:47

He doing food.

46:50

Interviewer

He was doing?

46:51

-

Yeah.

46:52

When I went Afghanistan,

46:53

it was really people to me is they accuse as a stranger.

46:55

Because David Hikes he may give me better protection

47:02

as I'm a spy.

47:05

Interviewer

David Hicks called you a spy?

47:08

-

Yeah, he told people,

47:09

he doesn't tell me myself

47:10

but he tell the people in Afghanistan, I'm a spy.

47:12

I'm a CIA or as the official.

47:15

My life wasn't risking it in Afghanistan.

47:19

But everybody talking to me I was very careful with me.

47:22

All right.

47:25

Now to my position,

47:26

because actually, maybe you got confused.

47:32

Why I'm being in Afghanistan in the beginning when I was,

47:35

and I want to Pakistan and someone is being killed.

47:41

And because of me, they, his name Gatony.

47:48

And because this man, he won my employer,

47:52

he take me to Saudi Arabia.

47:55

I'm going to work for him, as a contractor.

47:58

And when we did record them for assay to try to employ me

48:03

and I went to him, I said,

48:07

"I'll be in under pressure of the Australian officials.

48:09

They want to employ me."

48:12

He said, don't worry just to go meet with them, recording.

48:13

And we filming him and we make him look bad in the media.

48:17

We protect you.

48:21

And what it did, I did what he said.

48:24

And I take the photo of the Azure official.

48:26

And I record the conversation.

48:28

And when did tell me about Trabia

48:31

and the guy from Manchester woods

48:33

and Jack Thomas and all this stuff,

48:36

all this in my tape recording,

48:38

he take all this with me and he gave it to his lawyer.

48:41

One in Saudi Arabia and one in Pakistan lawyer,

48:44

and photo in some of this, and say,

48:48

This is why, when they picked me up,

48:50

they find this stuff in my bag.

48:53

And this why they scared to send me back in Australia.

48:55

And this one of the reasons too, to me release,

48:58

was I would admit any crime I did.

49:01

Interviewer

And what-

49:05

-

What happened,

49:06

we try to go through the media when he was killed.

49:07

I tried to find way back to Australia,

49:12

but I didn't know where to go.

49:15

I have one left over from these guys.

49:17

One, his name, Abdul Ilah this guy from Saudi Arabia.

49:19

He go with me and is the only a way,

49:25

we go through Iran to go back home.

49:27

Because now they know you in Pakistan,

49:30

they gonna go every airport,

49:32

they gonna stop it for you.

49:34

Then we went to Iran, we said,

49:36

we go to the Al Jazeera and Afghanistan.

49:38

They have a Cabo,

49:41

they have an Al Jazeera office.

49:41

If you're aware of that,

49:44

that's the first one is being a shop by American,

49:45

when they have war, I think that's what I said.

49:51

We try to go to the Al Jazeera.

49:55

This guy we meet with, he's now in his span,

49:57

under house arrest.

50:01

Everyone, they know he's a threat,

50:03

because of me, he's been house arrest until today.

50:06

Because he have my tape,

50:10

he have my story,

50:12

he have the name of the agencies,

50:14

and he's been arrest when he had this stuff.

50:16

That's what I believe.

50:18

And now, I have no evidenced to bring it.

50:20

They say, "This is all my evidence."

50:23

Because when they asked me, I was, I was honest,

50:25

in the beginning and I told them the truth.

50:28

And they asked me,

50:31

who do you think have the tape?

50:33

Who you think have the evidence?

50:34

Who you think have got the tape?

50:36

Who you think got the photo?

50:38

And I told him, I said, "I haven't done anything."

50:42

They asked about, "No, the Australian."

50:44

But who know?

50:47

Maybe the Australian asked me, and I wasn't know

50:48

that I've been asking by the Australian.

50:50

I've been honest with the Egyptian from the beginning.

50:52

Cause I said what to do is in Egypt.

50:56

I wasn't, I haven't done anything wrong.

50:58

The agency that tried to employ me.

51:00

"So why are you here?"

51:03

I said, "I have, I brought for you, I never been in there."

51:04

I haven't done anything wrong.

51:07

When they've been tried to employ me,

51:09

I done this and I got the tape, bring my bag.

51:10

Until today, I didn't have my bag.

51:14

Interviewer

Why did you finally center out of Egypt?

51:17

Why do you think they sent you out of Egypt?

51:21

and then to Guantanamo.

51:24

-

This is what I'm trying to tell you because now

51:27

to try to set me up was any cases I told them, the old,

51:31

every single I told them, they find is the truth.

51:35

Now, I'll told him about the video and the what's it called?

51:37

The film, the camera I've been filming the Azure.

51:42

I got the recording tape recording about Azure

51:45

and I had talked to try to employ me.

51:49

And if they send me back in Australia,

51:51

they have to give me every single have.

51:55

And that's why I went the case here to Australia

51:58

because it doesn't give me what is my bag?

52:01

And they gave me a $100, like $200.

52:02

Where is the rest of my luggage?

52:06

Where is all my stuff?

52:08

Where's the document I have?

52:10

What is this?

52:12

They said, they have a list.

52:13

Where is the list I have?

52:13

They said, they have a (mumbles) tape.

52:16

What is this tape?

52:18

We wanna see it,

52:20

but they take it because the tape are recording

52:21

the conversation between me and Azure,

52:24

how they tried to employ me to send me in Afghanistan to,

52:26

to find Jack Thomas and Matthew Stewart.

52:30

Interviewer

And so when you were sent out of Egypt,

52:35

did you really going to Guantanamo

52:39

-

No I never know, even Guantanamo bay,

52:41

I don't know what it is.

52:43

Interviewer

You never heard of it?

52:44

-

I heard about it when they send me back to Afghanistan.

52:46

Interviewer

And when do you hear of it, in Afghanistan?

52:49

-

Because what happened they take me to Egypt now in Egypt

52:53

in the beginning, I said,

52:57

I've been honest, that's what I'm listening.

52:58

I haven't done anything wrong, I'm very confident,

53:00

this is the issue. I've got this guy.

53:03

And I give the tape to this media guy from this.

53:06

I was Afghanistan because this reason said,

53:10

because we bring you here because he was in Afghanistan.

53:12

I said yes, I'm not denying I was in Afghanistan,

53:13

but I tried to run away from the Azure.

53:17

The agent is trying Asia since.

53:19

They tried to get me.

53:23

And-

53:24

Interviewer

So when you were taken back to Afghanistan.

53:25

-

They took me from Pakistan because I was become disabled

53:27

because in Egypt, they gave me a lot of drugs.

53:32

I become paralyzed.

53:35

And my left side.

53:36

Yeah, yeah, I was in my left side is gone.

53:37

Yeah.

53:42

From the drugs and electric shocks.

53:43

Yeah, I was and-

53:47

Interviewer

Do you know what kind of drugs

53:48

they gave you?

53:49

-

I don't know.

53:51

Until today, maybe you see my body

53:51

has become I will become itchy

53:55

or I'll got a lot of itching, I'll go swore,

53:57

but no one knows.

54:04

They gone and come back.

54:06

They gone and come back and no much we can do.

54:07

Doctor think is a skin problem,

54:12

but it's not true because someone does say you have eczema,

54:15

eczema.

54:20

And some of them, they say I don't know.

54:21

Someone say from stress,

54:24

but this is kinda my hands look like fluid.

54:28

They come like and start itching my body.

54:32

Interviewer

Were the drugs given to you as injections-

54:36

-

Everything, everything, drugs, sniffed, rink,

54:39

food, needle, everything.

54:44

Interviewer

And when they send you to Afghanistan

54:49

you know who you were?

54:52

-

No, no I never, know.

54:54

I never know my life since they kidnapped me,

54:57

where are they gonna take me.

55:00

I've been transferred more than 10 times or 12,

55:02

they keep transferring me.

55:08

Interviewer

Where did they change from the Afghanistan?

55:10

-

Well, the first they take me from Egypt

55:12

and they say they gonna be released because I was very sick.

55:16

They try to make me sense for us.

55:19

I know something happened because I know people,

55:21

I had the feeling and I have all the time.

55:26

I have a vision,

55:28

something going on and trust me or not.

55:29

I see myself, where I go before I go

55:32

they come and I was in this time,

55:38

maybe you hear a program, was one from Qatar country.

55:40

And he, he, he did talk about me and say,

55:45

they call him for help because I was dying in this time.

55:48

I remember before I left Egypt,

55:53

they have a lot of people

55:54

they come in to see me I was paralyzed

55:57

and they try to tell me, "Are you're going home,

55:59

you're finish? what you gonna tell about Egypt

56:02

and all this setup?"

56:04

Oh, this one, I go in Australia,

56:05

I'm gonna say Egypt is a corrupt and criminal.

56:07

They done this and this.

56:10

So you still send us a (indistinct) until I die,

56:12

I was paralyzed in this time.

56:15

When they take me in Afghanistan,

56:18

they take me to Pakistan and they transfer me from Pakistan.

56:19

I have one guy from Pakistan.

56:24

He can tell you the story too.

56:26

His name's (indistinct) he's paralyzed,

56:28

but now he's have a problem with his name.

56:30

He's been released too.

56:33

His name Sadik but he being kidnapped

56:35

from Indonesia, Jakarta.

56:37

Interviewer

He was in Afghanistan with you?

56:40

-

Yeah, he was no.

56:42

He'd been kidnapped from Jakarta by the American.

56:45

And he's now back in Pakistan.

56:50

Interviewer

When you went to Afghanistan,

56:51

how long were you there before you were sent to Guantanamo?

56:54

-

Well, he,

56:57

I was released with this guy from Egypt in the same car.

56:58

What he told me, I'm being contact with him.

57:04

So if you wanna one day,

57:07

I let him talk to me in the phone, you can hear him.

57:09

Interviewer

Okay.

57:11

-

And maybe I can try him now if you want to.

57:13

Interviewer

No, lets finish

57:15

-

It's what happened?

57:16

He was kidnapped and sent to Egypt.

57:19

He'd been on torture similar as mine.

57:22

Then he was sent in the same time back to...

57:25

He told me in Bagram,

57:29

but I was told I was in Pakistan and from Pakistan,

57:32

take us to Bagram and they keep me in Bagram.

57:36

I wasn't able to an airport, in Bagram.

57:40

I wasn't able to walk, to stand. Sorry.

57:42

Interviewer

Why not?

57:47

-

I was already disabled.

57:48

Interviewer

Your legs were-

57:51

-

I was gone.

57:52

It's not mentally it's.

57:53

I go head spin, I can no balance.

57:54

If I stand up, I go back or go front.

58:01

I can't.

58:05

Interviewer

What caused that?

58:07

-

The, the electric shock,

58:08

some of the doctors said someone was saying this drugs.

58:10

And that's what I always to bleed

58:14

from my nose and my ear and all the time.

58:16

But I can understand when they take me

58:20

to Guantanamo they used to...

58:22

Something like a machine and my hands metal

58:24

to make me stand in the beginning.

58:29

I wasn't believing we're gonna be survive,

58:33

since I wasn't believing, I'm healthy

58:35

and I do exercise around again and again.

58:37

And I'll be clothes.

58:41

This is a mercy from my (indistinct)

58:42

I can't deny that and says,

58:44

and that's what I fighting until now.

58:46

And this is why I accept your interview because

58:48

I say I gonna fight to the last drop of my blood.

58:52

And last minute of my life to tell the world

58:55

how criminal this people is.

58:59

Interviewer

So how long were you in Afghanistan before?

59:02

-

They sent me in to Bagram for 15 days,

59:06

I think, or 11.

59:10

And what the game is,

59:12

is a bloody game because the media follow me.

59:13

Some of the media fine about ma may I'm in Egypt.

59:16

And when they meet,

59:21

that's all we discover all this wouldn't have a case against

59:22

Australia in a court paper document.

59:25

What happened?

59:28

And the media find out someone in Egypt Habib

59:29

and what he's doing there and where he is

59:34

when the media stopped,

59:36

put the hand where I am in Egypt,

59:37

they release me and they find out I'm sick person

59:40

is not able to even stand up

59:42

and say how will they get this guy?

59:44

I got to meet with people, they're going to say, it's,

59:46

it's being killed in Egypt.

59:48

They tried to make me admit something

59:51

and I refuse again.

59:53

And they find out that I'm gonna die.

59:54

And Egyptian government doesn't wanna put themselves

59:56

in a responsible for killing him.

59:59

Have to tell him, take him out of the country.

1:00:03

Let him die in Pakistan or somewhere else.

1:00:04

Not in here.

1:00:07

Interviewer

Did you see any doctors

1:00:08

while you were in Egypt or Afghanistan?

1:00:09

-

The doctor is a criminal.

1:00:13

He say, what doctor is say is a doctor is a criminal

1:00:16

who's doctor gonna come in a secret place

1:00:20

or the torture place?

1:00:22

What's type of doctor he entry in a place like this.

1:00:25

He is a criminal.

1:00:30

You have to be criminal.

1:00:31

Interviewer

Why, why would they do?

1:00:32

-

Because it's a torture there.

1:00:33

People try to kill you slowly.

1:00:36

How what doctor is going to see a person,

1:00:40

and people try to kill him.

1:00:43

If this doctor try to make him survive,

1:00:45

this mean he try to make him get more take more torture.

1:00:47

I'd rather to let me die not make me survive.

1:00:52

Interviewer

Did doctors examine you

1:00:56

to see that you were surviving?

1:00:58

-

Examine every place I go from transfer.

1:01:01

When to transfer me from place to place,

1:01:05

they get the doctor see me.

1:01:07

They filming me fully.

1:01:09

Photograph inside my mouth every part in my body naked.

1:01:12

They filming everything

1:01:16

and to transfer me and the other one take me.

1:01:17

They do the same thing.

1:01:20

Every time they remove me.

1:01:21

Interviewer

And did the doctors examine you?

1:01:23

-

It's not a doctor is a government business.

1:01:25

Like give you Basel

1:01:31

and they used to call me is anyways Basel sometime,

1:01:35

and sometime they call me what they call it? Baggage.

1:01:40

I'm a Baggage sometime call me Basel,

1:01:47

sometime they call me different name I forgot the name.

1:01:50

They call it

1:01:53

And we find the name and the meaning of it Like,

1:01:54

I don't know the word but something like that.

1:02:00

They say something Baggage they calling us.

1:02:03

Interviewer

And when you were disabled in Afghanistan,

1:02:07

did American doctors see you there?

1:02:11

-

Was worst to see in Afghanistan

1:02:18

to see a doctor or to be in a place there

1:02:21

because is no such a doctor.

1:02:23

And Afghanistan is no such American doctor.

1:02:26

If anybody tell you they have a doctor there,

1:02:30

they lie to you.

1:02:32

The doctor only for military people

1:02:34

and this is different area.

1:02:38

We have a doctor his name Amon,

1:02:40

he used to help the American.

1:02:42

He is a doctor but he'd been picked up from Afghanistan,

1:02:44

Now he's a crazy.

1:02:47

He's still in Guantanamo Bay.

1:02:49

His name Amon.

1:02:52

He's a doctor.

1:02:53

He got two few doctors,

1:02:54

they used to help him because they have no doctor.

1:02:56

They have no doctor.

1:03:00

Interviewer

And when you were centered Guantanamo,

1:03:03

did you know about Guantanamo then?

1:03:05

-

No

1:03:07

Interviewer

Could you describe?

1:03:08

-

What happened they take me in Bagram,

1:03:10

in Bagram they keep me because

1:03:12

I think they'd been rushed to send me because

1:03:14

they sent me with three people disabled,

1:03:18

one two one one guy from Tunisia,

1:03:20

his name and Lotfi,

1:03:24

and one guy his name Nur from Algeria they disabled.

1:03:26

And they take all the disable people in one fly.

1:03:33

I remember I've been transferred with these guys

1:03:39

from Bagram to Kandahar.

1:03:42

They keep me in Kandahar for another 11 days,

1:03:45

and they come and they take me straight away

1:03:48

to Guantanamo Bay.

1:03:50

Each time when the red cross come to me

1:03:52

and I find next day I fly.

1:03:56

Interviewer

The red cross came to you and-

1:03:58

-

And they come to me in Bagram,

1:03:59

and another part what we said here

1:04:03

when we come to Australia they say,

1:04:05

they informed the council in Islamabad,

1:04:08

I am in Bagram.

1:04:11

And they waiting for the council reply.

1:04:14

And (laughs) that transfer suddenly a transfer to...

1:04:20

Interviewer

And when you was transferred to Guantanamo

1:04:25

did your wife know where you were?

1:04:27

Could you speak to her at all?

1:04:29

-

No, No, no.

1:04:30

I said, as I told you,

1:04:31

even when I come talk with the lawyer,

1:04:34

what's his name?

1:04:37

Yeah.

1:04:39

No What's his name? (indistinct)

1:04:45

Interviewer

Kenny?

1:04:48

-

Steve Kenny.

1:04:49

Because David Hicks was in Guantanamo Bay.

1:04:52

Australian government doesn't wanna help me with anything.

1:04:55

Doesn't wanna, they show me no mercy.

1:04:58

You can say that they doesn't interested for me

1:05:04

to be even survive all right?

1:05:08

Because they just cross on me.

1:05:10

They doesn't what to do with me,

1:05:16

they want me to be disabled and mental.

1:05:17

I was one year and a half in a dark room

1:05:22

I never see.

1:05:26

Interviewer

In Guantanamo?

1:05:28

-

In Guantanamo Bay first year and a half,

1:05:29

I was in a room not seeing nothing

1:05:31

for a cell dark 24 hours,

1:05:33

just someone Chinese I never forgot that.

1:05:37

Chinese military woman she go in,

1:05:40

she give me one shot.

1:05:42

And I found myself naked in the floor all the time.

1:05:43

This as memory until 2003.

1:05:46

First time I say,

1:05:52

they take me out of this cell

1:05:53

they brought me next day with Hicks.

1:05:55

After in 2000 train,

1:05:59

they brought me the next day with Hicks

1:06:02

and they would say to me to me,

1:06:03

please me and you this exact words.

1:06:05

When they brought me next to him

1:06:09

he was in the first level one.

1:06:10

You know what's mean level one.

1:06:12

Level one one because in Guantanamo Bay

1:06:15

they had level one, level two, level three, level four

1:06:16

I was level four,

1:06:19

and was what do you call,

1:06:20

I see lost no item all my life in there.

1:06:24

This mean naked all the time.

1:06:30

David Hicks he was a level one extra

1:06:34

this mean he have everything

1:06:37

and have a magazine in his cell,

1:06:40

and they try to tell me see how we treat him?

1:06:41

Cooperate and he told me,

1:06:45

man I know you I see on in Pakistan in 2000.

1:06:47

And I see in Afghanistan and say, yeah,

1:06:52

they'd see in Afghanistan

1:06:55

but I'm not there to do anything wrong.

1:06:56

I didn't see you in Pakistan.

1:06:59

I didn't dare to make anything wrong

1:07:00

well if you done something it's up to you say

1:07:02

just let him release you.

1:07:04

Just tell me and you in the same ship.

1:07:07

They not gonna let me out without you.

1:07:10

And they not gonna let you out without me

1:07:13

I said I don't give you shit sorry for language.

1:07:14

But I haven't done anything wrong

1:07:17

but you was fighting there.

1:07:19

You have a gun.

1:07:21

You released a video tape

1:07:22

to attacking the world.

1:07:25

Interviewer

David Hicks released the video tape?

1:07:26

-

Yes.

1:07:29

The tape of Osama bin Laden,

1:07:30

when he had ban his arm he say gonna shoot the world

1:07:32

and all this.

1:07:36

He is Jack Thomas and David Hicks and is preaching guy.

1:07:37

That's what David Hicks said in his message.

1:07:41

Interviewer

They are in the tape?

1:07:43

-

They one covering the face and kicking the door

1:07:44

and shooting the statue.

1:07:47

This them.

1:07:49

And that's the tape is been released by these people.

1:07:50

And the end of the story Jack Thomas,

1:07:54

they find, the court find him is innocent person.

1:07:56

I don't believe that,

1:08:00

are you gonna believe that?

1:08:02

Because he say Osama bin Laden is a terrorist.

1:08:04

But you live with him for for six easy idiots.

1:08:06

And he coming out after six years because he's being killed.

1:08:08

So he's a terrorist?

1:08:11

What about you? Your honest?

1:08:12

Hypocrite.

1:08:15

And they was there.

1:08:17

And they released it too,

1:08:19

I haven't done anything.

1:08:20

And David Hicks he's been treated in Guantanamo Bay,

1:08:22

like a King I'll tell you that.

1:08:25

He's suffering today saying Oh I haven't been treated.

1:08:28

He's a lawyer and I can give you 100 of people

1:08:31

It's being released from Guantanamo Bay

1:08:34

they can tell you on the phone,

1:08:36

how David Hicks is been treated like a King.

1:08:38

He have a walkie talkie in his cell.

1:08:41

He called the guy any time he want to go out for rec.

1:08:43

Anytime.

1:08:48

He smoke in the cell.

1:08:49

He give me smoke.

1:08:52

And he say you cooperate you and me in the same ship.

1:08:53

I said no I'm not.

1:08:57

(indistinct) shit ship I'm not a there.

1:08:58

I haven't done anything wrong.

1:09:01

I haven't done anything let him kill me,

1:09:03

but I'm not gonna say I done anything wrong.

1:09:05

And I haven't done it let him kill me.

1:09:07

I already been killed in Egypt from the beginning,

1:09:09

but he being cooperate as a lie

1:09:13

and he can do this all the time.

1:09:15

Interviewer

What did he say to you when you said that?

1:09:18

-

He say it's up to you,

1:09:19

you're losing I said I lose I don't care.

1:09:21

I lose.

1:09:24

Say ain't gonna be here all life.

1:09:25

And if we not released by this

1:09:26

in this time can was around Ramadan I believe

1:09:28

said if we're not released by this from Ramadan,

1:09:31

we never gonna get out.

1:09:33

I said I never be out.

1:09:34

I never gonna go out with a charge of this place.

1:09:36

Because I haven't done anything wrong.

1:09:39

I was kidnapped and this is exactly the truth.

1:09:41

I haven't done anything,

1:09:45

I haven't carried a gun,

1:09:46

I haven't carried bomb.

1:09:47

I'm not trying to do anything to harm nobody.

1:09:48

These people done kidnap me and put me in torture

1:09:51

for no reason.

1:09:54

You being picked up in Afghanistan,

1:09:55

with your gun in your hand you done something wrong,

1:09:58

your enemy combating after them to do to you.

1:10:01

You broke the law broke up to you,

1:10:04

but you on him.

1:10:06

But I stood up for you.

1:10:07

And I say yes I done that

1:10:09

because and I haven't done it.

1:10:11

I don't have to do this,

1:10:12

because on the same ship,

1:10:13

I don't wanna go with this ship.

1:10:15

Let this ship go.

1:10:16

Interviewer

What happened to you

1:10:18

when you told them that?

1:10:20

-

They take me back to the isolation and done finish.

1:10:21

They start torture again.

1:10:25

Not allow me to sleep.

1:10:27

They move me from cell to cell.

1:10:30

I was through the hell.

1:10:32

Interviewer

Did you see the red cross

1:10:34

while you were in Guantanamo?

1:10:35

-

Yes I see red cross.

1:10:36

Is it corporation to the United States?

1:10:38

It's a corporation.

1:10:41

I don't believe in red cross it's rubbish.

1:10:43

America doesn't give red cross permission to go in

1:10:47

until to be quiet.

1:10:50

That's the deal and this what I was taught.

1:10:52

And even the letter until today,

1:10:55

the red cross scare especially with me,

1:10:57

because I know the red cross very well.

1:11:00

Red cross even they report the lying report.

1:11:03

They say we contact the Australian council in 2000,

1:11:07

and when they pick me up when I come to Bagram,

1:11:10

it's not true.

1:11:14

If they contact the council,

1:11:15

we say who you did talk with?

1:11:17

They say no they can't say it.

1:11:19

Why not saying who you did talk with in Australian council?

1:11:22

When you're saying in Bagram,

1:11:26

the same we say in Kandahar.

1:11:27

Why council background and doesn't wanna put dates?

1:11:29

It's all corporate

1:11:34

Interviewer

Did the Australian government

1:11:36

come in and interview you while you were in Guantanamo?

1:11:38

-

I'll tell you what?

1:11:41

Australian government is every single thing they done

1:11:43

is lie, dishonest, they corrupt.

1:11:47

They fully lie from the prime minister,

1:11:50

to every even to the small Sergeant or officer

1:11:54

in a department of foreign affairs or federal police,

1:11:58

or as you is all lie.

1:12:01

Interviewer

Why do you say that?

1:12:03

-

Because this lie, fabricated.

1:12:03

Everything is been fabricated about my case.

1:12:06

Interviewer

Did they speak to you

1:12:10

while you were in Guantanamo?

1:12:11

-

They say they meet with me in their own document in court.

1:12:11

They say they speak to me in Pakistan intricate me.

1:12:15

I never see official in Pakistan.

1:12:19

The American came to see me but they're Australian.

1:12:23

They make a statement.

1:12:27

This one, they come in giving evidence in court.

1:12:29

They see me and the guys tell me I did see you in Pakistan.

1:12:32

I see him in Pakistan only see me

1:12:36

Let's try (indistinct) Australian ambassador

1:12:39

his name (indistinct).

1:12:41

He say no as your official official

1:12:43

give you his card but they give you card of the ambassador.

1:12:45

Why the ambassador send his business card?

1:12:49

Was is it official?

1:12:52

Why not Why?

1:12:53

Why he give it to agency?

1:12:56

Oh, what do you call it as official

1:12:58

to give me his business card?

1:13:01

Because they know in business card in here

1:13:03

and I go what's in there

1:13:06

They put electric shock and the drugs

1:13:08

to make me brainwashed and forgot his name

1:13:10

And I still until today

1:13:14

if you check up in 60 minute program,

1:13:15

the first issue I remember that come in my memory,

1:13:17

when I see Alistro Adam's photo

1:13:22

I say this the one I saw him in Pakistan

1:13:24

and this is the one he sent me in Egypt.

1:13:27

It's all a lie, it's corrupt.

1:13:30

Interviewer

Did you see any doctors In Guantanamo?

1:13:32

-

No

1:13:37

Interviewer

No?

1:13:38

-

They didn't take me in hospitals.

1:13:40

Even and their report they lie about it.

1:13:43

They said done operation for me in my tummy.

1:13:45

They been planning to do something for me,

1:13:49

but doesn't work out.

1:13:52

They say they have operation,

1:13:53

they done operation for me in my legs.

1:13:55

They give me medicine.

1:13:58

They tell me I had a cancer prostate.

1:14:00

And the Australian official,

1:14:05

he give it to me the bottle,

1:14:08

and the bottle said "A medicine of Habib."

1:14:10

In Guantanamo Bay alright?

1:14:16

Australian didn't already give me medicine for cancer,

1:14:19

and I still until now I have it in my hand.

1:14:23

And the guy is say you have a cancer.

1:14:27

They try to make me believe I had a cancer prostate.

1:14:28

Interviewer

Did they try to help you

1:14:33

with your disability?

1:14:34

-

Australia?

1:14:36

Interviewer

No, American doctors.

1:14:37

-

They love to me to be sick.

1:14:39

I used to dying at day every day they love to have me sick.

1:14:42

Interviewer

Why?

1:14:47

-

Because this is part of suffering.

1:14:48

I was hunger strike.

1:14:51

You know what they do to me because

1:14:52

they used to give me drugs in my food, alright?

1:14:53

And I stopped eating.

1:14:59

I done hunger strike because I feel myself,

1:15:01

I'm doing something.

1:15:03

I'm not feeling I'm normal to do it.

1:15:05

When I done hunger strike I find myself.

1:15:08

I know where I am I know who I am.

1:15:11

I wasn't know everything.

1:15:13

Interviewer

Did they force feed you?

1:15:15

-

They force me feed me that's why I have ulcer.

1:15:17

They used to bend the the nose,

1:15:20

they brought it through my nose a hose,

1:15:22

and the guy make it like a plumber in and out

1:15:27

until today I got ulcer.

1:15:31

I didn't think I ate as burning.

1:15:34

Interviewer

How long many days did you get force fed?

1:15:37

-

Oh, I was, for some time I was sick and this time

1:15:40

I was really sick.

1:15:45

Interviewer

Why didn't you stop?

1:15:46

-

Stop what?

1:15:47

Interviewer

Why didn't you start eating

1:15:48

so you could stop being force fed?

1:15:49

-

I wasn't scared to it because they gave me drugs in food.

1:15:51

Because I wasn't normal.

1:15:55

The soon I ate they gave me something.

1:15:57

Even the guy I have a witness.

1:15:59

They his name Mohammed.

1:16:02

He's now from what's it called?

1:16:03

They released him from what country is,

1:16:06

Chad.

1:16:13

He's Saudi Arabian by background his Chad.

1:16:14

He's seeing the guards because they mark my fruits.

1:16:17

Because they have a special people to give them drugs.

1:16:22

And the guard had told me

1:16:25

he told me that he used to call me Abahmed the name.

1:16:26

Faizal Abahmed.

1:16:29

Say don't eat your food, I say why?

1:16:31

He say I see the guy outside,

1:16:33

he had a Mark in your plate.

1:16:37

-

Interviewer] How do you know they didn't put drugs

1:16:40

in the food When you were forced fed in the liquid?

1:16:42

Could they have done it?

1:16:46

-

Well, I can't do much about it.

1:16:46

What they do is when you force him,

1:16:49

you can't do much.

1:16:52

Did you say my photo in the book?

1:16:53

Interviewer

I haven't opened the book.

1:16:55

-

All right open the book show me the photo.

1:16:56

Interviewer

I can look at the photo later.

1:16:58

-

Yeah it's I was 50 kilo.

1:16:59

Interviewer

You weighed 50 kilos?

1:17:02

-

I was my weight was 50 kilo when I come in Australia.

1:17:03

Interviewer

Because you wouldn't cause you-

1:17:06

-

I'm not eating I can't eat.

1:17:08

I'm not eating because I wanna die,

1:17:12

but I'm not eating because the drugs,

1:17:15

and I'm not trusting the food.

1:17:19

The guy give me plate he urinates in it.

1:17:21

And he told me you want it or not.

1:17:27

I don't want it I don't want this food.

1:17:31

They said they respect religion,

1:17:34

they never respected religion.

1:17:35

Interviewer

And where were you force fed?

1:17:37

In the clinic?

1:17:38

-

Well they have a special people they take him.

1:17:40

They have a clinic a different clinic.

1:17:42

They have their clinic outside.

1:17:44

They have they brought me in a freezing area.

1:17:46

Is air conditioned very freezing.

1:17:50

And they brought you're naked.

1:17:52

They have a level of say like I used to sleep in bed,

1:17:53

was handcuffed like this.

1:17:57

One handcuff in right one in other side,

1:18:00

my legs open as well was handcuffed as well.

1:18:03

And this one he had gone to hospital for a hunger strike.

1:18:07

Interviewer

When you were force fed

1:18:13

where you put in that chair that they used?

1:18:14

-

No in bed.

1:18:16

Interviewer

You were in bed when they force fed you?

1:18:18

-

They give you this one that's it.

1:18:19

You can't do much about it.

1:18:21

Because he had been tied up says.

1:18:23

Interviewer

How many times a day do they force feed you?

1:18:27

-

Oh I don't remember they bend.

1:18:28

They have like food cans,

1:18:32

they just to come and put it in this

1:18:35

this straw in and they go.

1:18:38

Interviewer

Did you see other people?

1:18:40

-

There's no first food.

1:18:40

Is they put you some in your nose,

1:18:42

like a cup and a tap,

1:18:44

they just to put him in and it goes that's it.

1:18:46

They go through in your body.

1:18:49

It's not forced into in Egypt they do this,

1:18:54

in Egypt they put you in the floor,

1:18:57

and the two people open your mouth,

1:19:00

and they feed you by force.

1:19:02

Interviewer

They do that to you?

1:19:04

-

Yes they done it so many times.

1:19:05

Interviewer

Did you see other people being force fed

1:19:06

in Guantanamo?

1:19:09

-

Oh yeah.

They have one guy who was Palestinian,

1:19:10

who was over two years.

1:19:14

They have Kuwaiti guy but sometimes too.

1:19:15

So many people yeah.

1:19:20

Interviewer

Did you get to be friendly

1:19:22

with anyone in Guantanamo?

1:19:24

Were you friendly with anyone in Guantanamo?

1:19:26

-

Like who?

1:19:28

Interviewer

I know did you get to-

1:19:29

-

Guards or you talk about the detainee?

1:19:30

Well detainee it depend,

1:19:35

because the detainee even America making rooms inside,

1:19:37

they make people the detainee hate each other.

1:19:41

They make rumors this they work for us,

1:19:45

and this guy work for us and people start

1:19:47

not trusting each other they stupid.

1:19:50

Even play with the peoples mind

1:19:52

and some people believe it and some people say

1:19:54

America said we have a 300 people now,

1:19:57

Well maybe 200.

1:20:00

I don't believe that.

1:20:02

To me believe now in Guantanamo Bay not less

1:20:04

in at least 900 people there.

1:20:08

Interviewer

You think today?

1:20:10

-

Today not less I'm guarantee that,

1:20:12

not less than 900 people there with my guarantee.

1:20:15

And I know every place see they think am stupid,

1:20:20

but I've been every single place in Guantanamo Bay.

1:20:23

They remove me every single place.

1:20:26

Before I come was the building camp called camp six.

1:20:29

I know camp six before the building

1:20:34

I see the map of it.

1:20:36

I see the plan of it because

1:20:37

what the Australian done,

1:20:39

they put me Guantanamo Bay as Egyptian.

1:20:41

No one no know I am a Australian.

1:20:46

And that's why the guard to used to talk in English

1:20:48

and no one believe I understand English

1:20:51

because they think I'm an Arab.

1:20:54

And that's what the America this Australia did.

1:20:56

They put it as I am Egyptian.

1:21:00

What they gave me for my hand that they put the names,

1:21:04

they say E and G, Egyptian.

1:21:09

Interviewer

And so you could listen to,

1:21:12

-

I listened to them I say,

1:21:14

I know what the world...

1:21:17

I'm saying the world doesn't know.

1:21:22

And from Egypt, from Pakistan,

1:21:25

from that's why I broke a Australian,

1:21:28

I'm saying I'm glad of it,

1:21:29

I'm proud of it,

1:21:33

I'm a strong of it.

1:21:34

I'm saying, I know what's the broke Australian government.

1:21:36

I broke the Australian government because everything

1:21:41

I know it's truth.

1:21:45

And what the government involved with

1:21:49

is the biggest corrupt in the world

1:21:52

I see people die,

1:21:55

I see people killed,

1:21:56

I see people stealing money for no reason,

1:21:58

I see innocent people,

1:22:01

people from FBI and CIA was killed American.

1:22:03

They killed them in Egypt because

1:22:08

they changed their religion to Islam

1:22:10

and they was a CIA official and he become Muslim

1:22:14

and stay in Afghanistan his name Henry,

1:22:18

he was killed in Egypt.

1:22:22

He was with me.

1:22:24

I know leaders,

1:22:26

there's been kidnapped from different country

1:22:27

are being killed in Egypt in front of my own eye.

1:22:29

I know how the agency work.

1:22:32

Interviewer

When you were in Guantanamo

1:22:35

did psychologists ever come to talk to you?

1:22:36

A psychologist?

1:22:39

-

Where?

1:22:40

Interviewer

In Guantanamo.

1:22:41

-

That's a funny question.

1:22:44

Psychology is the business is running in Guantanamo Bay.

1:22:48

America sold Guantanamo Bay for all the doctors,

1:22:54

American doctor in America or different country

1:22:59

is the biggest business.

1:23:04

Call it experiment in Guantanamo Bay.

1:23:06

In Guantanamo Bay is a doctors.

1:23:10

It's not interrogator it's the doctors.

1:23:13

The doctor have a few detainee he want a surge.

1:23:15

He wanna make his study in this few people.

1:23:22

What's Habib story?

1:23:27

What's Bini Amin story?

1:23:29

What's this guy story?

1:23:31

I'm not interested people in Afghanistan,

1:23:32

I'm not interested.

1:23:35

I want people to have a brain.

1:23:35

I wanna study good case.

1:23:37

And this guy he sent his interrogator,

1:23:41

his interrogator work for his experiment.

1:23:45

And this guy he asked me the question he's been told to ask.

1:23:49

Interviewer

What kind of question would he ask?

1:23:54

-

The band what the experiment go

1:23:55

what the guy the doctor wants him to do,

1:23:57

because he's got him make a say,

1:23:59

make a surge and make a course like what you're doing now.

1:24:03

Study what torture study about how to treat him.

1:24:06

Because they try to make the American,

1:24:11

when they go into the war this one,

1:24:14

some of the people I was told

1:24:16

to hear the military themselves said

1:24:17

when they try to make that Spanish people say, they said,

1:24:20

"When American get in a war and they taken for torture,

1:24:23

they have to know what way they think people can talk."

1:24:29

And this was the practiced

1:24:36

What's the worst torture to it?

1:24:38

And that's what happened it's experiment place.

1:24:42

It's not a doctor

1:24:45

the hospital for temporary business

1:24:46

They doesn't care people get killed.

1:24:48

They put him there for that.

1:24:50

What's a big deal.

1:24:52

How many people do you know how many people been,

1:24:53

how many people America admit is been killed

1:24:56

in Guantanamo Bay did you know any?

1:24:59

Is America admits of anybody being dying

1:25:01

in Guantanamo Bay?

1:25:05

Interviewer

Yes, they do.

1:25:06

-

How many?

1:25:07

Interviewer

I think six.

1:25:08

-

Six, are you believe yourself?

1:25:09

Since 2001 until today six people die in Guantanamo Bay?

1:25:12

Interviewer

How many do you think died?

1:25:21

-

I believe my own eyes.

1:25:22

I see no less than 10 people die in front of my own eye.

1:25:24

Interviewer

How did they die?

1:25:29

They die by kicked and hitting

1:25:30

and someone draining the water.

1:25:33

Oh man.

1:25:36

Interviewer

You saw people.

1:25:37

-

I saw a guy, I was in the cell,

1:25:38

this area next to camp four ask about camp four.

1:25:41

David Hicks know came before very well.

1:25:47

Camp four is a place, they have a few...

1:25:50

I used to tell people they have a woman in Guantanamo Bay.

1:25:53

People say, "No."

1:25:56

I say, "I hear a woman."

1:25:57

I see a woman, When they remove me inside.

1:25:59

I see a woman and young shield

1:26:02

10 months old, no one believed me, until the recently.

1:26:06

America admit they have a guy now his age is nine years old.

1:26:10

Does mean how hold he was when he was in Guantanamo Bay?

1:26:15

He's a gamey guy and the woman,

1:26:18

the one what's her name?

1:26:21

Afya.

1:26:23

She was there after how long?

1:26:25

Yeah, I saw her there in Guantanamo Bay

1:26:28

and I bought him my book

1:26:30

and no one believed me,

1:26:32

but I seen it because I've been removed.

1:26:34

They remove me every hour,

1:26:36

every single place in Guantanamo Bay I've seen it.

1:26:39

I seen it in my own eyes, they think I'm gonna be crazy.

1:26:44

And this is what the Australian government tried to say.

1:26:47

When I come back to him, Mr. Habib he is gone.

1:26:50

But doesn't work because I'm not crazy, I'm normal.

1:26:54

And this mercy from our last panel, the Alla from God,

1:26:57

it's not mercy from the America,

1:26:59

it's not mercy from Australia.

1:27:01

Australia doesn't feel for me.

1:27:02

And doesn't give me money because I'm a good boy.

1:27:05

I've been punished for no reason.

1:27:08

Now they give me money to shut me up, to keep me quiet.

1:27:10

But the money they give it to me.

1:27:14

It's not even one of my rights until today.

1:27:16

Australian government haven't been apology for me.

1:27:19

I've been harassed, they try to...

1:27:22

Since I was released and I come in Australia one week,

1:27:24

they not even leave me to rest with my family.

1:27:28

They tried to arrest me for double murder.

1:27:31

I see people get killed.

1:27:33

Even people innocent or whatever it is.

1:27:35

I called the police.

1:27:38

They come and they tried to set me up for murder case.

1:27:39

Interviewer

When you were released can tell us how,

1:27:42

how you felt when you were released court?

1:27:45

Did you expect-

1:27:48

-

I wasn't believe it.

1:27:48

Even ask, if you go back to Joe Maguli ask him.

1:27:50

Joe Maguli, he told him, listen,

1:27:54

I don't wanna see your face anymore.

1:27:56

I don't wanna even to say listen Habib

1:27:58

maybe one year, he take him to come back to get me out.

1:28:00

I said, don't come back because I don't wanna see you.

1:28:07

Before I've been released We was planning,

1:28:12

took it out of Guantanamo Bay.

1:28:14

And my plan, maybe you hit what

1:28:16

somebody after I left,

1:28:18

they tried to run away from Guantanamo Bay.

1:28:20

This is my plan was.

1:28:22

Interviewer

To run away.

1:28:24

-

Yes.

1:28:25

To get out of Guantanamo Bay because we know the system,

1:28:25

I was planning to do it.

1:28:29

We don't care if somebody have to die

1:28:32

to get the people released

1:28:33

and all after I left someone done it, I think.

1:28:35

Interviewer

To try to break out?

1:28:37

-

Yes we tried.

1:28:39

Interviewer

How would you have done?

1:28:40

-

I was in camp India, right?

1:28:42

I know every single thing We're changing Guantanamo Bay.

1:28:48

As my information, they take you in the room

1:28:50

outside in the shower area sometimes.

1:28:55

In the shower area, they have a small window.

1:28:59

They only release your hands.

1:29:04

When you go inside the shower, they have a window.

1:29:07

You give him hands to take the handcuff to take the legs off

1:29:10

from the down the bottom, down the bottom in camp India

1:29:16

is very high, you can take your head out.

1:29:19

I've been trying me and another two guys.

1:29:22

I don't want to mention names.

1:29:25

And, and one of Tony's in he's very tough person.

1:29:27

And one was Arabian and two people and three of them

1:29:33

I think that they been released.

1:29:39

Another two I don't know what happened to them.

1:29:41

When he got in the shower, the two shower was the same.

1:29:45

We're done already making

1:29:48

as some plan to do it.

1:29:52

But after are done this plan,

1:29:56

I think that they hear us

1:29:59

and I've been removed to camp five.

1:30:01

All right and sometime I was hitting

1:30:06

some people was trying to get this

1:30:09

and Cambodia to get out of.

1:30:12

But I wasn't even believe I've been gonna be release

1:30:15

but I was prepared to die any time.

1:30:19

Interviewer

Before you were released,

1:30:21

could you send letters to your wife?

1:30:23

-

Australian government and American government

1:30:27

they were sending a letter in my behalf.

1:30:31

I never write a letter.

1:30:35

Interviewer

You never wrote a letter to your...

1:30:37

Why not?

1:30:38

-

Because I don't wanna make my wife believe I'm surviving

1:30:39

because I wasn't even believed my family survive.

1:30:43

I was thinking all died already.

1:30:48

Interviewer

Why?

1:30:51

-

And even I wanna tell them my mind, even the survive,

1:30:52

because that's what I was told.

1:30:56

That's what they show me in Egypt that my family was killed.

1:30:58

Interviewer

So you thought they had...

1:31:04

-

And I want to tell myself is the truth.

1:31:05

That's what they told me.

1:31:08

And I told myself,

1:31:09

I have to believe that. And it's good for me.

1:31:10

Make me keep going.

1:31:13

Interviewer

And you never got a letter from your wife,

1:31:15

from the red cross?

1:31:16

-

They used to give me a letter.

1:31:17

I didn't accept anything.

1:31:19

Even in the reports say,

1:31:20

Habib doesn't accept anything.

1:31:22

Even the guy come from Australia,

1:31:24

his name Taca, Australian official.

1:31:26

He's talking to me and I don't accept anything from him.

1:31:29

I know even talking to him.

1:31:32

Interviewer

And when you left Guantanamo

1:31:35

you came home,

1:31:37

What did you feel when you saw your wife and children?

1:31:40

-

To be honest was for nearly one year.

1:31:42

I'm not believe it's the truth.

1:31:45

I wasn't believed this is my wife and this my kids not true.

1:31:47

I was thinking I'm not drugs

1:31:51

or it's a brainwash or something not real.

1:31:53

And sometime until today, or sometime happened to me again.

1:31:58

Interviewer

Wait, who was on the plane with you

1:32:02

When you left Guantanamo?

1:32:05

-

The plane with me was alternant general.

1:32:08

Australian official is from the alternant general,

1:32:11

the same person he's saying never Habib,

1:32:14

he gonna have a dollar from Australia for bullshit,

1:32:19

the same person he is assigned for me now recently,

1:32:22

to pay me some amount of money for apology,

1:32:27

the same person he fly with me from Guantanamo Bay to here.

1:32:31

I had to talk with this guy,

1:32:35

and I just to try to make my wife believe

1:32:37

what I said is the truth, in front of him.

1:32:39

I said, is did Australia torture me?

1:32:42

I say, yes, but this is off record.

1:32:45

Say why off record,

1:32:48

that Mr. Habib. We settled the case with you today.

1:32:50

Send this money and give it to me.

1:32:53

It's not settling the case, but give me my dignity.

1:32:54

But I want you to tell in front of my wife,

1:33:00

did you see me, I am fear?

1:33:03

Say now, that when you was in the fly with Joe Maguli

1:33:06

was Joe Maguli next to you

1:33:10

and the fly was a private fly because that's why

1:33:12

they put me in the past because I was kidnapped.

1:33:16

They can't take me in the military ones.

1:33:18

Like David Hicks and the others.

1:33:21

All right, now he was inside the flight.

1:33:23

He even scared to come out the door of the flight.

1:33:27

I have two guard behind me and another one was sniper.

1:33:31

And one right in the back was a sniper.

1:33:35

And say, if you turn the face, we shoot you in the head.

1:33:38

And I did tell my face, he doesn't shoot me in my head.

1:33:41

And I told the, I asked him this question from my wife said,

1:33:44

"The guy told me if you turn your face,

1:33:48

you're going to shoot me in my head."

1:33:50

Say yes.

1:33:51

And I said, "Did I turn my head?"

1:33:52

He say "Yes."

1:33:54

So you say, you think I fear? I'm not fear.

1:33:55

Interviewer

Were you shackled on the plane going home?

1:33:58

-

No, no way in the world.

1:34:01

This is Magalia asked if I'd done any crime in shackled.

1:34:03

That's mine say, this is my dignity.

1:34:06

That's what I got a dignity for me

1:34:10

because I haven't done any crime.

1:34:12

They can shackle me because I have no case against me.

1:34:13

And this is what Australia until today suffering.

1:34:16

They was trying to say Habib done crime,

1:34:19

but I haven't, they done crime, I haven't.

1:34:24

Interviewer

When you landed with your wife,

1:34:27

she'll be waiting for you there?

1:34:29

-

Yeah, it was a lot of media coverage and people white.

1:34:30

But this story, because Australian say, oh,

1:34:34

it doesn't mean Mr. Habib came in

1:34:37

and having been a charge.

1:34:39

This mean he's not guilty, bare rubbish.

1:34:40

But now we find out the old corrupt from the Prime Minister

1:34:43

to everybody, they are corrupt criminal.

1:34:47

They lot of people, victim of the corruption,

1:34:50

but did there this to honest people.

1:34:53

Interviewer

If I was going to ask you

1:34:55

if it's possible and might not be,

1:34:57

but if it's possible, we ask,

1:34:58

if we form a detainee is question,

1:35:00

what might've been the worst experience

1:35:03

you had in Guantanamo?

1:35:06

Is it possible for you to pick something that

1:35:07

shows the worst of what you experienced?

1:35:12

-

In Guantanamo Bay, to me it's a second experience.

1:35:16

Cause the first experience was Egypt, I think was Pakistan.

1:35:22

But Pakistan as is, is a beginner.

1:35:27

And I was believing Pakistan is not gonna be longer.

1:35:32

But when I went to Egypt, this, I forgot all about itself.

1:35:37

Now I'm there and that other person,

1:35:40

and this is what I count myself,

1:35:42

I die in this time, I did die in this time.

1:35:43

Then when I finish and to tell you experience

1:35:48

is worst experience to give you

1:35:55

is playing with your mind, brainwashed.

1:35:58

It's the worst.

1:36:02

It is because there's a mentally

1:36:03

or your life stick with you.

1:36:06

Cause they did play with my mind.

1:36:08

And it's, it's a,

1:36:11

I don't know what they did with others,

1:36:13

because in Guantanamo Bay a lot of people,

1:36:15

they get distressed because with a darkness,

1:36:17

no sleep and is no sleep,

1:36:21

make you a really aggressive person.

1:36:23

It's until now I am.

1:36:26

Sometime I get angry because for no sleep

1:36:28

sometime I couldn't sleep

1:36:31

because I feel myself as it's not the same,

1:36:32

it's come back for me, but it's not the issue.

1:36:35

But the brain wash to make you different person who you are.

1:36:39

This is harder that to get your person back, it's not easy,

1:36:44

it will take you all your life.

1:36:48

And that's what they did.

1:36:50

They brainwash, brainwash is not easy

1:36:51

and they give you different.

1:36:55

They try to put you and a different person

1:36:56

than what you are.

1:36:59

Interviewer

I understand you have

1:37:01

to leave in about five minutes.

1:37:02

-

Yes thank you.

1:37:04

Interviewer

Is there something you'd like

1:37:05

to say in closing or something I didn't ask you

1:37:07

that you would like to share with us.

1:37:09

-

Well,

1:37:11

what I've tried to tell you or not tell the world,

1:37:12

is any government, as my experience,

1:37:16

they're not interested about public,

1:37:21

they're interested about themselves,

1:37:22

they're criminal, they do crime.

1:37:25

They doesn't mean the crime.

1:37:27

How much cost or how much worse, much harm,

1:37:29

main thing they make money

1:37:32

and to make it as what they wanna do

1:37:34

for their own benefit.

1:37:38

They doesn't believe in the humanity.

1:37:40

And as I said in the beginning,

1:37:43

Jack Thomas has been in a country in Afghanistan.

1:37:45

He is a fighter.

1:37:48

He was a leader of the Column Amir.

1:37:49

And the same council, Alistro Adam

1:37:52

the same one he order

1:37:55

and he had me over to the Egyptian

1:37:59

and hand me over to the Guantanamo Bay.

1:38:02

The same person he done the birthday party

1:38:05

for this guy and he was wrong.

1:38:07

He was threatened the world,

1:38:10

he make him birthday party and make him contact his lawyer

1:38:13

in Australia.

1:38:16

And they send him back in Australia,

1:38:17

not in Guantanamo Bay, say, see what the issue is?

1:38:18

A dive he takes to make them as an Australian hero.

1:38:23

It doesn't matter, are you white or black, or whatever.

1:38:25

Maybe all you have a worry about the Australian people

1:38:28

more than these people, I did not believe.

1:38:32

Or that's what I believe myself, because I ate in this hand,

1:38:34

this country, in this land, I live with these people.

1:38:39

I don't have to be do any crime, doesn't mean

1:38:43

I have nothing against you until you harm me.

1:38:46

But if you touch me, I broke your arm.

1:38:51

If you go to me, I kiss your hand.

1:38:54

That's what it is.

1:38:57

You touch my family, I'm not gonna let you go.

1:38:59

But if you go to me, whatever you want from me, I give you,

1:39:03

I don't know what religion are you.

1:39:07

They're not interested to my religion ever you believe

1:39:08

and anyone fight behind the religion is a liar.

1:39:13

Religion, till you fight for your land, for your home,

1:39:17

for your wife, for your kids.

1:39:20

Does until you fight because

1:39:23

you want something from somebody.

1:39:26

All right, respect.

1:39:29

I respect the land where I am because this land keep me,

1:39:30

and I respect the law of this land

1:39:37

because I live in this land.

1:39:40

But if this land doesn't respect me,

1:39:42

I'll have to fight back in a law what the play with.

1:39:44

I say play because it's not true, it's not law.

1:39:49

Australian country playing is a law,

1:39:52

but they don't have the law.

1:39:55

The playing game with the system, they kidnapped me.

1:39:57

They tried to accuse me.

1:40:01

But I win, in the end of the story,

1:40:03

because of you and the other people, they believe

1:40:06

I haven't done anything wrong.

1:40:11

After how long I prove myself now is over 10 years,

1:40:13

I've been fight for it.

1:40:17

The guy in Canada, only for nine months,

1:40:19

they get $10 million for just few months torture.

1:40:21

I've been for four years and God know how torture I have.

1:40:26

They know themselves.

1:40:32

They admit what I've been through.

1:40:33

They make me paralyze,

1:40:35

but I'm not about the money, about the dignity.

1:40:38

Dignity never is a waste of money.

1:40:41

They waste anything,

1:40:44

you can't get it with dignity.

1:40:46

And that's what it is, the truth.

1:40:49

And this is what we after the truth.

1:40:52

And that's why I'm saying,

1:40:54

I must stand up with a very loud voice,

1:40:55

and I tell the world,

1:40:57

I can fight any government because I'm honest

1:40:59

and I'm better on the Prime Minister even Obama himself.

1:41:02

I call him as a liar sometimes ago, we would say,

1:41:05

why not give him a chance?

1:41:08

He's the guy who started saying no,

1:41:09

because he know he is not gonna do what he say.

1:41:11

He signed agreement where soon he stepped in the government,

1:41:14

he said, "Close Guantanamo bay."

1:41:17

I said, he can't close Guantanamo Bay

1:41:21

because he can afford it,

1:41:25

because whatever, come from Guantanamo Bay the make people,

1:41:27

fight against America, all their life.

1:41:30

Because if the guy 10 months old,

1:41:33

he's taken in Guantanamo Bay accusing as a terrorist,

1:41:36

this guy, he gonna come back out of Guantanamo Bay

1:41:41

he gonna fight again for his life.

1:41:44

Cause he lost his life.

1:41:45

And he sees mom in Guantanamo Bay raped

1:41:48

for no reason because America want that

1:41:51

or the Prime Minister want that.

1:41:54

And he close his eye

1:41:55

he turn his face and say, yeah, yeah,

1:41:57

the terrorist and not truth.

1:41:58

People is not gonna let him go.

1:42:01

That's why he can't close Guantanamo Bay.

1:42:03

And I'm honest I said the truth.

1:42:05

This is why they media respect me.

1:42:07

He is a liar, did he close Guantanamo Bay?

1:42:09

Checkup in the media checkup Habib what he say about Obama.

1:42:13

When he start say Obama never gonna close Guantanamo Bay

1:42:16

because he can't afford it to close Guantanamo Bay.

1:42:19

I know better than him.

1:42:22

I know the world, I see too much,

1:42:25

but the world doesn't know much.

1:42:28

You doesn't know.

1:42:30

That's why I'm talking to you today.

1:42:31

That's why I come all the way.

1:42:33

It doesn't matter cost,

1:42:34

but how much to release for you and for us,

1:42:36

people still believe because that's me and you.

1:42:39

We not live in a jungle.

1:42:42

We call ourself a human being is different between

1:42:44

the human being and the animal, big different.

1:42:47

The animal they get his, what he wants by fighting.

1:42:52

You take what he wants by tongue,

1:42:57

because animal can't express his feeling by tongue.

1:43:01

It could express his feeling by hand.

1:43:05

We not use our hand until we need our hand.

1:43:09

And that's what I tried to tell the world is

1:43:13

it's not really, as my issue,

1:43:15

people have to decide who's right and who's wrong

1:43:17

for themselves and the end of the story,

1:43:20

America never believe any Prime Minister,

1:43:22

who try to help you out.

1:43:25

He tried to help himself.

1:43:26

He tried to help his pocket to try to get a much,

1:43:27

much good time for himself

1:43:31

the soon he stay in the parliament house

1:43:33

or in the state in a house of the government

1:43:37

under the money of the government.

1:43:40

He tried to enjoy himself.

1:43:42

He doesn't care about what anybody else they lie.

1:43:43

Interviewer

Wow! I wish we could go on

1:43:47

but we have to end so I wanna thank you.

1:43:49

And you need to take 20 seconds of quiet for Johnny,

1:43:51

the filmmaker to just have room tone.

1:43:57

So if you wouldn't mind.

1:43:59

-

All right.

1:44:01

Film maker

Picking room tone.

1:44:02

(indistinct)

1:44:15

Interviewer

Thank you, sir.

1:44:17

Habib,Mamdouh - Interview master file

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