Garner, Joan - interviewed by Rose Norman / Southern Lesbian-Feminist Activist Herstory Project / Duke Digital Repository

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Turning on the tape recorder now.

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This is Rose Norman

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and I'm interviewing Joan Garner

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by phone on April 13th 2013.

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And now I'm gonna turn this phone on speaker

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so that the tape recorder can hear you as well as me

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Okay

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Okay

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I'll try to remember to project

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Okay, well, I've got the phone

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right next to the tape recorder

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Okay, I have a little brief bio

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that I've put in front of these interviews

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and I wrote it based on

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what I found in your resume and so on.

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Okay

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I said you were born and raised in Washington DC,

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is that correct?

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That is correct.

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Okay.

And you've lived in Atlanta since 78

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You majored in English

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at the University of the District of Columbia

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Uh huh

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And then earned a Master's Degree

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in Organizational Communication from Howard University.

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That's correct.

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Currently County Commissioner

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for Georgia's District 6.

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Yeah Fulton County.

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Fulton County.

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District 6

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District 6

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and at the time

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when you were one of the co-founders of SONG,

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you were a director of the Fund for Southern Communities.

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That's correct.

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Okay. All right.

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Well, I'd like to start out by asking

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what made you a social justice activist?

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If there was an aha moment?

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Mandy talks about the

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American Friends Service Committee person who

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Sure I grew up in the 50s and 60s in Washington.

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And it was actually during

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the height of the civil rights movement.

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And it was actually

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the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King.

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I was in the 11th grade.

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That really was the aha for me.

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I was attending,

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I was part of a high school sorority,

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and I was attending an annual conference

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of our girls from New York to Virginia,

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we were meeting in Washington DC that weekend, April 4th

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at the Washington Hilton Hotel.

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we got word that Martin Luther King had been assassinated.

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There was a curfew put on the city,

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so we couldn't leave the hotel.

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And we were about 150 African American girls

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and the rest of the hotel was completely white,

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except for the, you know, the maids and the service staff.

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And we were just petrified about the assassination.

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And the curfew.

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It was just, you know, we didn't know what was going on.

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So our sponsors that weekend said,

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we're going to,

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since we can't leave,

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we're going to go ahead with our conference

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that we're gonna dedicate it to Martin Luther King Jr.

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And we're gonna make sure that you understand

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the history, your history as black people,

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and you understand the social justice movement of Dr. King.

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And so that's what we did that weekend.

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And when I left there,

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I else, the other thing that was traumatic was that

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we could go to our hotel rooms

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and look out the window

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and start to see New Street in Washington DC

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starting to burn

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as a result, and that was very impactful.

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And so when I left that weekend,

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I knew that my purpose was about social justice.

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I didn't quite know how I would fulfill that purpose.

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But I knew that what motivated me

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was working for my people

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and working for justice.

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And so, you know, fast forward ahead,

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years later, it wasn't until I came out actually,

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as a lesbian in the early 80s

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and then got involved with the lesbian gay movement

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in the late 80s,

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that was, oh my goodness,

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here's my opportunity to work for social justice.

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As an African American, lesbian woman,

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there were very few of us at the time

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who were willing to work publicly,

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or to acknowledge ourselves publicly, as being gay

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and to work for the cause.

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And so that's how I actually got involved as an activist.

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But I was always,

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you know, justice was always a motivating factor for me

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and everything that I did.

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Well, that's a good story.

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Sounds like an amazing weekend.

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Thank you.

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God, whoa.

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So that's interesting

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that it was a lesbian and gay activism.

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Were you Atlanta by then?

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I guess you were

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I was in Atlanta,

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and when I came to Atlanta I was married,

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and had been married for a few years,

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so I really didn't, you know, understand.

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I didn't know anything about the gay movement.

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I didn't realize there was a gay movement.

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There was an AIDS epidemic happening.

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And it was really,

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I got involved in it.

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So, when I came out, I got involved in

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and this was after I had divorced my husband.

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A few years later,

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I got involved with the first

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HR, Human Rights Campaign Fund

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dinner committee here in Atlanta.

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And it was at that point

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that I said that I would get involved.

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But I didn't realize that there was a whole,

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I got involved and it was a focus on AIDS

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I didn't realize there was a whole lesbian and gay movement

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that I didn't know about.

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And so when I learned about the lesbian gay movement

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through working with the HRC dinner committee

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And trying to piece all this together,

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you know, cause it's like,

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okay, I'm doing this, why am I doing this then?

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If I'm doing this

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I'm publicly stating that I am a lesbian,

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which means that, you know,

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there's no hiding it

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I've gotta be out,

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but I've gotta understand what I'm doing

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and why I'm doing it.

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And it was about, you know,

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it was about here we are

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another group of people

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that are being discriminated.

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Because for me growing up,

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if you were gay, that meant you had a mental illness.

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Even though there were several gay people in my family.

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Really? Did you know them?

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There was something wrong,

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it was not spoken.

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You know, everybody knew it,

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but you know, you just didn't discuss it.

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I have a cousin and an uncle.

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And when I came out,

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and told my mother

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and she said, Joey, that's no problem.

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She said, you know,

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growing up, my best friend was a gay man.

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We go to his house for parties

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one side of the house would be for gay people

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the other side would be for straight people

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and by the end of the night,

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we were all going back and forth.

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All right. That's amazing.

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That was in Washington or where was that?

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Where'd your mother grow up?

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Washington.

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Wow.

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When did feminism come in? 50 what

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Well, the feminism piece,

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again, I wasn't active in it because,

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but I knew about the women's movement

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because after the civil rights movement

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and the height of it in Washington,

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I was a young adult when there was the women's movement

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the feminist movement was burgeoning,

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and the anti war movement.

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So I saw all of those things happening in Washington,

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and while I wasn't,

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I didn't actively engage in them,

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they made a mark on me.

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You know, they had an influence on how I began to think.

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And so it wasn't until I actually started working

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with the Fund for Southern Communities

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and realized that there is a whole,

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there is so much unfinished business,

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from civil rights

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and other movements that came out of civil rights,

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the modern Civil Rights Day

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left to address

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and it was through funding social justice,

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that I decided to continue to be active

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in my community on a number of fronts.

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One was, you know, looking at the women's movement

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and coming in contact with lesbian feminists

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Who were they?

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Who were the lesbian?

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That's when I met Suzanne Pharr, Jill Gomez,

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Mandy Carter, Mab Segrest people, my cohort,

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they were the ones that I really learned a lot about,

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that I learned from

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as it relates to feminist theory and feminist

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Barbara Smith, you know, Audre Lorde

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just reading about,

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I never met Audre Lorde, but reading about her

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and hearing about her from these women.

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I realized that, you know,

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what I am working to help mitigate,

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you know, these are my beliefs as well.

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This is what I bring as part of my experience growing up

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as a black person in Washington, DC.

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So, did you run into Suzanne and Mandy and Mab

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through the Fund for Southern Communities or?

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I did, I did, I did, I actually did.

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I was the Director,

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actually, I started off as the Development Director.

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That was actually my entree to social justice

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actual social justice work.

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Because I started meeting community activists

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from around the country,

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as part of the Funding Exchange network,

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and particularly here in the South,

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you know, living

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I live in the community where Martin Luther King grew up.

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Wow.

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And so, I started learning about this work

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through social justice funding,

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and started meeting the activists.

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And here in Atlanta, I was working on another front.

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I got involved politically by working on political campaign.

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And so I worked on former mayor Jackson's political campaign

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and he then appointed me as a liaison

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to the lesbian and gay community

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in his second administration,

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And that's how I became politically involved in Atlanta

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as an African American lesbian.

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He appointed me to a number of boards and commissions.

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And I also got involved in my neighborhood work.

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So I was doing that at the same time

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that I was funding social justice

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and learning, you know about it.

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And I met Mandy Carter and Mab

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and Suzanne and Pam McMichael

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You know, I met them all.

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They had all attended the Creating Change conference

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in North Carolina.

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I didn't attend that conference,

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but that's when you know,

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they sought of birthed the idea of a group.

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That would be you know, bi-racial group,

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looking at,

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really focusing on the interconnection of

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race, class, gender, sexual orientation.

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They brought the idea to me

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because I was you know, funder

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and I said, hey, I wanna be part of this.

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Like I wanna be part of it

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You know, and I think what I brought was,

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you know, the whole piece of,

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you know, the funding piece to it.

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Well, that is a huge piece.

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I think that means oh my goodness.

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Can you hear me?

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Cause I think a call is trying to come through

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I don't even know how you get rid of

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this call waiting thing.

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We'll just wait, We'll just wait

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Yeah, eventually.

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It's my mother. I think I'm gonna have to

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You wanna call me back?

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Yeah. I'll call you right back.

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Okay. Sure, sure.

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It was no problem, okay.

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Alright. We were talking about,

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oh, they can be used for funding.

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Because you had that expertise

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Well yeah, they came to me to talk about the idea.

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And I think the initial conversation

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may have been about funding but not necessarily

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Well, they came to you because you were with the

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Fund for Southern Communities

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and knew how to find money for social justice issues.

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In fact, when I was reading about

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the Fund for Southern communities,

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it sounds a lot like what SONG does

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I was trying to,

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It's not specifically for lesbian and gay,

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but it's for social justice issues.

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Yes, yes.

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The Fund for Southern communities actually is part of

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what used to be called the Funding Exchange Network.

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And that was a network of,

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the Funding Exchange was the headquarters in New York.

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They just recently closed their doors, unfortunately.

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But there were 15 sons across the United States

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that had a mission of funding social justice work.

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Advocacy as opposed to service.

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And so the Funding Exchange

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was one of the southern members of the Funding Exchange.

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And so the focus was to basically fund social justice work

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in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.

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So essentially it was a public foundation,

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we raised our money to give our money away.

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And what was unique about the foundation is that

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it really was the concept of funding social justice

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was to really challenge the status quo of power dynamics.

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So grantees, as well as donors served on the governing body

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to make decisions about where its money would go.

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I don't really know anything about that.

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This still exists, right?

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The Fund for Southern Communities.

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Or did it go away with the Funding Exchange

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No, it still exists.

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Alice Jenkins is the executive director.

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But yes, yeah, it should

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Yeah, I guess that noticed you know,

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within the last six months that

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the Funding Exchange was closing its doors

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I was sorry to hear that.

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Yeah, well, it sounds like the things that

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So it was also one the first funds

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in the southeast to fund lesbian and gay issues.

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Oh, so the Fund for Southern Communities

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was already funding lesbian and gay?

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Yes, oh yes.

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Okay. so that really is a very good match

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for what SONG was wanting to do.

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SONG. How is SONG different,

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of course it's not just about raising money

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and I guess that's what you were mainly doing

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is raising money.

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Right.

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And then giving it away.

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Right.

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And what does SONG do that's different from that.

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Well, I think SONG is more program,

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SONG actually provide programs.

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The Fund for Southern communities was not

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an operating foundation were it actually,

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you know, administered programs per se

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but SONG does.

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SONG is a programmatic organization.

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So you know it raises money to,

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unless their mission has changed and I don't know,

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but it actually goes in and provides the services

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or provides the program management that's needed

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to administer the program better

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so that's part of its mission.

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So did the Fund for Southern Communities

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fund any SONG project?

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It did fund SONG initially.

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I think we did give SONG a grant

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Let's see there's a question about

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lesbian feminist activism.

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We already talked about it before.

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You were working for the Fund for Southern Communities.

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You met all these women

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who were lesbian feminists and activists

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and your feminism

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it's hard to be a social justice activists

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and not a feminist, I guess at this point.

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For me, you know, my thinking and actions,

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you know are progressive.

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You know, and that's always challenged

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you know, but I have always considered myself a feminist.

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I mean, I read about feminist when I was in college.

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Right.

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And so you know,

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women who are independent thinkers,

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women and men who are independent thinkers,

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men who support women in their initiatives

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I consider you know, and call themselves feminists.

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I don't have an issue with that.

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But I have always

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seen myself as an independent woman.

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An independent thinking woman.

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And of course, I'm speaking out for justice.

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That's how I look at it.

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I never identify myself with the white feminist movement.

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But you did identify with Audre Lorde and Barbara Smith

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Yes.

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Yeah. There's a new book out by

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Carol Giardina about the early feminist movement.

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It starts in, I think 1952.

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It starts with Simone de Beauvoir, and it ends

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Oh yes, and I've read a lot of her

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Good. Well, this talks about,

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it makes a big argument for the black feminist movement

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there was a lot more than people acknowledge

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because we're kind of aware now

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that it was perceived as a white movement.

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Right. Well, see you know, I grew up,

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my mother, you know, was primarily a single mother

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and she raised us

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and I saw her work

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I saw her refuse to take welfare.

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And she raised us you know, with the help,

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with support from my dad,

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but my dad wasn't in the house with us.

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And, so I saw her all her life,

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take care of us.

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And advocate for us and advocated for herself.

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And so that's my role model you know, of a feminist.

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Someone who, you know, had her own mind

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and did what she needed to do,

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and, you know, did the best that she could.

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And instilled in us to always be able

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to have a place to live,

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have a job, career

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and be able to take care of yourself

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and not depend on anyone else.

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So that's where I got my feminist values.

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Yeah, in the home.

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And so many white women were getting it from,

20:40

you know, the movement

20:44

because they weren't seeing that in their homes.

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So SONG is really,

20:53

is unique in the way it brings together

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what they call an intersectionality

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particularly feminism and racism and gay rights

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and focuses on not just single identity issues that's what

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Right, right, right

21:16

the thinking there was that

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we did not want to marginalized that work

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because there was so many intersections of it, you know,

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and that's why we have white women,

21:27

black women, oh, you know we were all chasing that

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but we brought in younger people

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we brought in men at one time

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and I think men are participating now.

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But you know, we did not want to marginalize our work

21:43

because, you know, there was no hierarchy of oppression

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and we wanted to make sure that

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you know, if I were to go to a table that I know

21:54

that I have a lot of issues to represent

21:58

that I'm gonna bring all of those issues with me

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and not forget.

22:06

And I would want that to happen

22:08

if somebody else were invited to the table

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and I wasn't at that table,

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but I can rest assured that I know that whatever it is,

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that was the main concern to me was gonna be represented.

22:18

And building allies.

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You know, it's like, again,

22:25

there was no hierarchy of oppression,

22:27

or there is no hierarchy of oppression,

22:29

and we really need to build allies across movements.

22:32

That makes our case a lot stronger.

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And we catch more people that way.

22:41

So we were deliberate in making sure that

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because we didn't often wanna be pitted against each other

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because I think at the time

22:53

that we were forming SONG,

22:54

there was a lot of controversy going on around

22:56

the gay rights movement

23:03

being compared to the civil rights movement.

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And black people did not wanna be compared

23:07

to white gay people,

23:12

because the gay movement was white gay men, primarily.

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And that was not the civil rights movement.

23:20

So we wanted to break down some of that,

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break down those barriers

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and get to the root causes

23:30

of why there is so much hatred and discrimination.

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Had you already gotten to that place in your thinking

23:39

when Mandy and those others

23:42

who had been at Creating Change came to you about SONG?

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I had because I realized it was the aha moment

23:48

of realizing that oh my goodness,

23:52

we have a gay movement going on here.

23:54

It's sorta clicked for me,

23:59

that even while I was working with gay rights at the time,

24:01

going from one meeting to another,

24:09

thinking about how you know as a black woman you think about

24:12

how do you present yourself in the world?

24:15

A lot of people take that for granted.

24:18

We were taught that when you're in public,

24:20

you have to present a certain way.

24:23

When you are with, you know, whoever you're with,

24:25

you need to be conscious of who you are,

24:29

and where you are

24:31

because you know, you're taught place in this culture.

24:33

And so I realized, hey, I'm a woman.

24:38

I'm African American, I'm now lesbian.

24:42

I'm still having to face some of the same challenges

24:45

that I faced being one or the other.

24:49

So all of it I am a political,

24:52

my being is political.

24:54

My total being is political.

24:57

And now I'm a senior.

25:00

And I had foot surgery that went wrong.

25:03

So that could possibly be a disability.

25:06

You know, so it's like all of these things that happened to,

25:09

that encompass who I am, I realized that early on,

25:12

I'm one person with all of those issues,

25:19

I could either segment them out,

25:21

or I could bring them all to the party with me.

25:24

And that was the connection for me

25:28

on a personal level,

25:31

that was my life.

25:33

My personal life is political,

25:35

because of who I am in this society.

25:38

And so I came to that before I met,

25:43

before I got involved with SONG.

25:47

So it's on a practical level.

25:50

And I tell you this thing I can remember,

25:51

sitting on my bed one morning,

25:53

having to go to a meeting and trying to figure out

25:57

what I was gonna wear that day.

25:59

My hair was in,

26:03

I was starting to grow locks,

26:04

And I thought, my goodness,

26:08

the mayor has appointed me

26:11

to serve on this committee.

26:14

And now I have to go, I must sit with people

26:16

that are you know, movers and shakers of this city.

26:19

And how do I present myself

26:25

and I thought, my God, you know,

26:27

why do I have to deal with people telling me how to be?

26:29

And it sorta clicked.

26:33

It's like the same thing

26:34

that I went through as a black woman

26:36

I'm now having to deal with it as a lesbian.

26:39

And so it's like, okay, so there is, you know,

26:42

so for me, that's what it was about.

26:45

And when I met the SONG girls,

26:50

that kind of put it all in,

26:53

you know, an intellectual context.

26:55

-

That's interesting, the SONG girls.

27:00

-

Yes, yes.

27:02

-

They put it in a intellectual context.

27:04

-

Yes. In a you know, intellectual activists context.

27:07

Yeah. But for me it was a practical thing.

27:12

It was like why am I carrying these burdens?

27:16

Why are people telling me how to exist?

27:23

I didn't like that.

27:29

-

Why are people telling me how to exist?

27:33

A very good line.

27:34

So your story of the founding of SONG

27:38

is gonna be different from theirs

27:40

because of not being and Creating Change when they were

27:41

So they come to you.

27:46

Did they come in person?

27:47

Did they call you on the phone?

27:49

What's going on?

27:50

-

Oh they did, no, no,

27:51

I actually had a phone call that, you know.

27:52

Several folks wanted to sit and talk with me.

27:55

In fact, it was Pam McMichael,

27:58

it might have been Mab Segret.

28:02

I'm not quite sure if Suzanne was at that first meeting,

28:04

she may have been because they decided to meet in a glance

28:07

I think, they were all just passing saying

28:10

they all wanted to sit and meet with me

28:13

and they wanted to tell me about this idea.

28:15

That they has thought about

28:19

while they were at Creating Change,

28:20

and started describing what it is that they wanted to do.

28:23

I said, well count me in.

28:26

I am like, really, and you know,

28:29

I wanna be a part of this and I used that

28:32

and I was in awe of them

28:34

because they had been out there

28:35

working in the trenches on this for years.

28:36

And I wanted to be a part of it,

28:41

because I could see that this was

28:44

something that the movement needed at the time.

28:47

And that it was, you know,

28:50

we could really have an impact

28:52

on the social justice work

28:54

and really working to forward the movement

28:56

by making sure that there was an interconnection

29:05

with other social justice movements and issues.

29:08

-

So this was an idea that really clicked

29:16

for the six of you at one time

29:19

and how did it get from being an idea

29:25

that you were enthusiastic about to an entity?

29:28

Do you?

29:31

-

As we continued to meet with you know,

29:35

we had a number of meetings moving forward.

29:38

And we thought well, you know,

29:42

if we really want this to

29:44

last, you know to sustain itself

29:49

then we need to create an organization.

29:52

Which means that we have to incorporate

29:56

we have to have bylaws.

29:57

We have to, you know, hire staff

30:00

to make sure that the work is moving,

30:03

we have to raise money.

30:06

And so we would have retreats periodically.

30:09

And you may already have this information

30:14

but the way that we came up with the name SONG

30:18

-

I don't have this

30:21

-

we were at a retreat

30:23

and we were thinking,

30:26

okay, if we're an entity then we have to have a name.

30:27

And I felt well you know, we're in the South.

30:31

And when you think about the South,

30:35

you know, culture, music, food

30:37

you know, it's gotta have a cultural ring to it.

30:46

And so, we came up with SONG

30:52

and it's like, okay, so what does SONG mean?

30:58

-

You thought of the word first

31:01

and then you made up the acronym?

31:02

-

Yeah. And it's like how about a song?

31:03

And it's like okay,

31:06

and so what could SONG mean?

31:08

And it was like okay, Southern,

31:11

Southerners On New Ground

31:13

-

Yeah. I love that.

31:17

-

I mean it wasn't that easy

31:20

but you know after fooling around with it

31:21

it was like, okay we like that.

31:22

-

That's great. I love that too.

31:25

Were you always in Atlanta?

31:29

Where would you have these retreats?

31:31

-

No. We would go.

31:33

We would either go to

31:34

you know, like up towards the mountains

31:38

outside of Atlanta,

31:42

we went to Kentucky a number of times.

31:44

You know, we try to move around,

31:48

we go to North Carolina.

31:49

So we go wherever the women were.

31:51

So Pam McMichael was in Kentucky.

31:53

Suzanne was in Arkansas.

31:56

So we you know, I think we went to Delaware

31:57

Mab and Mandy, we're in North Carolina

32:02

and Pat and I were here in Atlanta.

32:04

So we wanted to make sure that we, you know,

32:07

because this was gonna not just be an Atlanta thing.

32:10

We moved around,

32:14

we would go to the beach,

32:16

we would go to a retreat center,

32:18

you know, we would find places to go off.

32:20

And be.

32:24

-

And you were just doing this on your own

32:26

out of pocket,

32:28

it was your personal money you were spending on this?

32:29

-

Yes.

32:32

-

And who was the ringleader?

32:36

I mean, somebody has to

32:39

-

I mean that's interesting

32:39

I'm gonna say that if grant either came

32:47

from the Funding Exchange

32:49

or it came from Funds for Southern Communities.

32:50

When we got our first grant,

32:54

we brought on Pam McMichael and Pat Hussain as co directors,

32:57

Pat being here in Atlanta,

33:03

Pam being in Louisville, Kentucky.

33:06

And they sort of organized everything

33:10

and then the rest of us were the founding board members

33:15

and they were also board members but they were also staff.

33:18

-

So they did the nitty gritty work

33:23

of filing for incorporation and stuff.

33:24

-

Yes, yes.

33:26

-

We have not got those interviews yet.

33:31

-

Oh, okay.

33:34

-

I'm having trouble getting in touch with Pam

33:35

and she may be out of the office this week or something.

33:37

And Pat with Lorraine Fontana lives in Atlanta

33:41

-

Oh yes, I know Lorraine

33:45

-

She sees Pat a good bit and is planning to.

33:47

She was just recently interviewed by this

33:51

what's it called Touching Up Our Roots?

33:55

-

Oh okay.

33:57

-

It's a gay project.

33:58

So we were just gonna

33:59

I have sent some money to that group

34:02

and asked to have a copy and permission

34:04

to excerpt from those interviews.

34:06

But I really wanna hear her story of SONG

34:08

especially since she and Pam were the ones who

34:10

you know the ones on the ground.

34:12

-

Yes, they were, they were.

34:15

-

So everybody else,

34:21

Did Pam and Pat become full time on SONG

34:22

or was this just?

34:25

-

They did, yes they did, they did.

34:26

-

And so the rest of you were still with your regular jobs?

34:31

-

Yes.

34:33

-

With SONG as a board.

34:34

-

Our regular jobs and we were a board

34:35

we were the founding board.

34:36

And we would meet be either here in Atlanta

34:41

or we would meet in North Carolina

34:42

well we went to Louisville a couple times.

34:45

And then I think I'm trying to remember when

34:48

because when Pat was no longer able to fulfill that role,

34:51

Mandy Carter came on as director.

34:59

And then we had a number of folks who joined the staff

35:03

because by then we were starting to receive funding

35:07

from a number of places.

35:09

We were able to, you know,

35:12

create staff and, you know, get the work going.

35:14

-

It's a very young staff now,

35:22

I was looking at the website.

35:24

I think Suzanne said she's the only one over,

35:27

she's working half time for SONG now.

35:30

-

Oh, okay.

35:32

-

And she she's the oldest person

35:33

and the next eldest is 40.

35:35

And then everybody else is under 40.

35:36

-

Yeah, you know, for a long time,

35:41

we would have discussions about opening it up to men.

35:43

And for the first couple of years,

35:48

we were adamant whenever we brought that topic up,

35:50

we were all ended up at very adamant,

35:54

no, we did not want men at this point.

35:57

Because we felt that we had more work to do,

36:03

in establishing it as an organization.

36:05

-

Well, that's interesting,

36:12

because that's also very true of,

36:13

you know, most women's organizations,

36:15

and I guess now and even

36:18

the American Association of University Women admits men now.

36:20

But in those days that was

36:23

-

I think and you know, SONG does too

36:26

but you know, at first, it was just a little touchy for us.

36:28

You know, it's like, you know, we're just not there yet.

36:31

We still have some work to do

36:34

in building the foundation of this group.

36:36

And we really want to make sure

36:38

that we have a solid foundation,

36:40

which meant that because, you know,

36:42

we were getting to know each other

36:45

because we knew of each other,

36:47

but we didn't really know each other.

36:49

We had to build the bonds of trust.

36:51

And we had to learn each other.

36:55

And, you know, make sure

36:58

that the organization was not just dependent on one person

37:00

or one personality,

37:04

that it was about all of us

37:07

and our collective wisdom,

37:11

which is when you ask the question who ran things,

37:13

you know, who was the ringleader?

37:16

There really was no ringleader per se.

37:18

We all had a role.

37:23

And it was a collective role.

37:25

Even though we knew that we had to designate

37:29

you know, some key people to run the organization.

37:34

And we wanted to make sure that our dynamics

37:40

could be sustainable.

37:43

Before we opened it up,

37:46

to the others to come in.

37:50

-

That's a good point.

37:53

Who of those other five women did you know the best?

37:56

you said that you

37:59

-

I knew Pat Hussain

38:00

because we worked in the same community here.

38:01

So I knew Pat Hussain.

38:04

I didn't know Pam McMichael at all.

38:07

She was new to me.

38:10

I had heard of Suzanne Pharr,

38:12

but hadn't really met Suzanne.

38:14

I knew Mab a little

38:17

because her partner Barbara

38:20

was on the board of the Fund for Southern Communities.

38:22

So I knew Mab but I didn't know her well.

38:26

And I knew of Mandy and had met Mandy

38:29

because we funded a group that Mandy was part of as well.

38:33

So I knew, you know, Mandy and Mab

38:36

through the work of the Fund for Southern Communities

38:41

but I knew Pat because of our work here

38:43

in the Atlanta community, you know,

38:46

being one of several outblacks,

38:49

as we called ourselves outblack radical blacks at the time

38:51

and I knew of Suzanne because of her work

38:56

and her writing.

38:59

-

I think that's really interesting

39:05

that you all came together

39:07

you found each other and then it worked so well.

39:10

So many organizations you know,

39:14

you had these good ideas

39:16

and it just you know,

39:17

it doesn't survive the initial enthusiasm.

39:19

-

Exactly, exactly.

39:22

-

And how would you account for that

39:24

that SONG did survive the initial enthusiasm

39:27

and did live on to pay

39:31

-

I think that you know,

39:33

when I look at the women that,

39:35

I was just so in awe of them

39:39

because of the work that they had had

39:41

and this is a serious group of women.

39:42

I thought I brought some you know, comic relief.

39:45

From a different perspective.

39:49

my commitment was just as strong.

39:51

but I didn't have the activist experience

39:55

that they had

40:01

And so I think, you know, on an individual level,

40:03

each of us brought a certain level of commitment

40:08

to this work.

40:11

And, we're very serious about making sure

40:13

that whatever our vision was

40:20

for how we want to be in society,

40:24

we've had to demonstrate that in our work.

40:27

So when things got tight or hard,

40:30

we took time out, to really get wisdom.

40:33

That was very important.

40:41

And to really understand, you know, what was happening

40:42

to a person or where a person was coming from.

40:47

Hello,

40:49

-

I'm here, I'm still here.

-

Oh, okay,

40:51

-

I'm just nodding my head.

-

Okay, no, I think that was my cell vibration

40:53

but that's okay.

40:56

So I think it was the commitment

40:58

that each of us brought to this work

41:02

to make sure that you know,

41:03

we want this to withstand the test of time.

41:05

And that if we run

41:11

up against issues,

41:14

we are committed to staying in it

41:16

to work through those issues.

41:19

-

I wonder also this has been the last question I think,

41:26

unless there's something you thought of.

41:30

Have you thought of anything that you needed to say?

41:31

-

No, no. This is good.

41:34

-

I've been trying to sort of,

41:38

I'm seeing this chapter,

41:39

the SONG chapter is the last chapter

41:41

of the Sister Wisdom issue.

41:43

We're gonna start with Gainesville

41:44

because there was a lot of early stuff in Gainesville.

41:46

Byllye Avery she was a co founder

41:52

of the Gainesville Women's Health Center.

41:56

There was just a whole lot going on there.

41:58

So we're starting with Gainesville.

42:00

And we wanna end with SONG,

42:01

and that's 68 is when we begin and 94 is when we end.

42:04

So SONG is 93.

42:08

And I guess it's 93 is when the Creating Change was

42:09

and then that started then.

42:13

And I'm looking at,

42:17

I'm trying to get a sense of

42:17

I see SONG as a new beginning,

42:22

that a lot of things had run their course.

42:24

A lot of, you know, revolutionary ideas and separatism

42:28

and a lot of people had burned out

42:32

and moved on to other things.

42:35

And SONG was like a breath of fresh air in a way.

42:38

What do you think?

42:42

You all came to it from different places,

42:45

activism and social justice,

42:49

but you came to it with different histories

42:51

for you why was SONG the right thing at the right time?

42:53

Where was it historically for you?

42:57

How did it fit?

43:00

-

Where was it historically for me?

43:03

-

Yeah. Why was it the thing to do then?

43:05

-

You know, well for me,

43:09

I think because there was so much that I saw

43:14

that was unfinished with the civil rights movement.

43:19

Like I said, I wasn't that

43:24

actively engaged in the feminist movement,

43:26

but there were all of these movements

43:29

that were still working.

43:31

And it's like, okay, so where are we?

43:33

Where are we, in terms of,

43:36

I saw them as separate movement.

43:39

And so I think, for me,

43:42

it was how do we make a connection here?

43:44

Because again, I had to go back to myself.

43:47

It's like, when I walk into a room,

43:50

I tell you what

43:53

it was that question that would come up sometimes,

43:54

are you first a lesbian?

44:01

Or are you first African American?

44:02

If I'm sitting in a room.

44:05

And I would say, what do you mean

44:07

am I first African American or first lesbian?

44:09

I am an African American woman, lesbian.

44:12

That's the total of me.

44:17

I can't separate myself.

44:19

And so for me, I think you know,

44:22

for me, it was alright, so if we're gonna do something,

44:24

it can't be business as usual.

44:27

We have to continue to move this forward.

44:30

And so how we make the connection

44:33

so if I'm gonna go in a room and say,

44:34

I'm here as an African American first,

44:38

or I'm here as a lesbian first.

44:40

The total of me is in this room,

44:44

dealing with all of the issues

44:48

that I have to deal with as a person.

44:50

And so, you know, for me,

44:55

it was if we're going to do this,

44:58

we've gotta to be about making sure

44:59

that we stay in the future and moving this forward.

45:01

Without the separation,

45:07

we can no longer can continue to separate ourselves.

45:08

Because there is a connection.

45:13

-

That's good,

45:15

we can no longer can continue to separate ourselves.

45:16

Well, this is very good.

45:21

I think I'm gonna be able to use a lot of this.

45:23

I'm gonna type my notes.

45:27

And I'll listen to the interview so that I can correct

45:30

where I didn't transcribe it right.

45:33

-

Yes, yes, yes.

45:35

-

And then what I'll do is email you those.

45:37

And if you need me to I could,

45:39

I could just go ahead and snail mail at the same time,

45:41

the email will give you an electronic copy

45:44

in case you want to get in there and write things.

45:47

-

Sure, sure.

45:49

But you don't have to write anything.

45:50

You just have to correct anything I get wrong.

45:52

-

Okay, sure.

45:54

-

And I'm hoping to do this quickly.

45:55

But I've got another set of interviews coming up

45:57

and it helps if I do it right away.

46:00

So I might get it turned around very fast.

46:03

But you will be hearing from me.

46:08

-

Okay, well thank you.

46:10

I've enjoyed talking about it.

46:14

-

Well good, I've enjoyed listening to you

46:15

it's very different from the other interviews

46:18

I've done Suzanne and Mandy,

46:22

I've talked with Suzanne and Mandy so far.

46:23

And it's completely different stories

46:26

not difference in opinion

46:30

-

I hope that our recollection

46:33

of how we came together is similar

46:35

but yeah, completely different stories.

46:38

-

Yeah, there's no contradiction.

46:39

It's just interesting how the puzzle pieces fit together.

46:42

Very very interesting.

46:46

-

Great. Well, I look forward to seeing it

46:48

and thank you so much for doing this work.

46:50

-

Sure I love doing this work.

46:52

It's really great.

46:55

-

Alright

46:56

-

Alright well have a good weekend

46:58

I appreciate the interview

47:00

-

You too.

Garner, Joan - interviewed by Rose Norman

Transcript

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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