- Turning on the tape recorder now. This is Rose Norman and I'm interviewing Joan Garner by phone on April 13th 2013. And now I'm gonna turn this phone on speaker so that the tape recorder can hear you as well as me - Okay - Okay - I'll try to remember to project - Okay, well, I've got the phone right next to the tape recorder Okay, I have a little brief bio that I've put in front of these interviews and I wrote it based on what I found in your resume and so on. - Okay - I said you were born and raised in Washington DC, is that correct? - That is correct. - Okay. And you've lived in Atlanta since 78 You majored in English at the University of the District of Columbia - Uh huh - And then earned a Master's Degree in Organizational Communication from Howard University. - That's correct. - Currently County Commissioner for Georgia's District 6. - Yeah Fulton County. - Fulton County. - District 6 - District 6 and at the time when you were one of the co-founders of SONG, you were a director of the Fund for Southern Communities. - That's correct. - Okay. All right. Well, I'd like to start out by asking what made you a social justice activist? If there was an aha moment? Mandy talks about the American Friends Service Committee person who - Sure I grew up in the 50s and 60s in Washington. And it was actually during the height of the civil rights movement. And it was actually the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. I was in the 11th grade. That really was the aha for me. I was attending, I was part of a high school sorority, and I was attending an annual conference of our girls from New York to Virginia, we were meeting in Washington DC that weekend, April 4th at the Washington Hilton Hotel. we got word that Martin Luther King had been assassinated. There was a curfew put on the city, so we couldn't leave the hotel. And we were about 150 African American girls and the rest of the hotel was completely white, except for the, you know, the maids and the service staff. And we were just petrified about the assassination. And the curfew. It was just, you know, we didn't know what was going on. So our sponsors that weekend said, we're going to, since we can't leave, we're going to go ahead with our conference that we're gonna dedicate it to Martin Luther King Jr. And we're gonna make sure that you understand the history, your history as black people, and you understand the social justice movement of Dr. King. And so that's what we did that weekend. And when I left there, I else, the other thing that was traumatic was that we could go to our hotel rooms and look out the window and start to see New Street in Washington DC starting to burn as a result, and that was very impactful. And so when I left that weekend, I knew that my purpose was about social justice. I didn't quite know how I would fulfill that purpose. But I knew that what motivated me was working for my people and working for justice. And so, you know, fast forward ahead, years later, it wasn't until I came out actually, as a lesbian in the early 80s and then got involved with the lesbian gay movement in the late 80s, that was, oh my goodness, here's my opportunity to work for social justice. As an African American, lesbian woman, there were very few of us at the time who were willing to work publicly, or to acknowledge ourselves publicly, as being gay and to work for the cause. And so that's how I actually got involved as an activist. But I was always, you know, justice was always a motivating factor for me and everything that I did. - Well, that's a good story. Sounds like an amazing weekend. - Thank you. - God, whoa. So that's interesting that it was a lesbian and gay activism. Were you Atlanta by then? I guess you were - I was in Atlanta, and when I came to Atlanta I was married, and had been married for a few years, so I really didn't, you know, understand. I didn't know anything about the gay movement. I didn't realize there was a gay movement. There was an AIDS epidemic happening. And it was really, I got involved in it. So, when I came out, I got involved in and this was after I had divorced my husband. A few years later, I got involved with the first HR, Human Rights Campaign Fund dinner committee here in Atlanta. And it was at that point that I said that I would get involved. But I didn't realize that there was a whole, I got involved and it was a focus on AIDS I didn't realize there was a whole lesbian and gay movement that I didn't know about. And so when I learned about the lesbian gay movement through working with the HRC dinner committee And trying to piece all this together, you know, cause it's like, okay, I'm doing this, why am I doing this then? If I'm doing this I'm publicly stating that I am a lesbian, which means that, you know, there's no hiding it I've gotta be out, but I've gotta understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. And it was about, you know, it was about here we are another group of people that are being discriminated. Because for me growing up, if you were gay, that meant you had a mental illness. Even though there were several gay people in my family. - Really? Did you know them? - There was something wrong, it was not spoken. You know, everybody knew it, but you know, you just didn't discuss it. I have a cousin and an uncle. And when I came out, and told my mother and she said, Joey, that's no problem. She said, you know, growing up, my best friend was a gay man. We go to his house for parties one side of the house would be for gay people the other side would be for straight people and by the end of the night, we were all going back and forth. - All right. That's amazing. That was in Washington or where was that? Where'd your mother grow up? - Washington. - Wow. - When did feminism come in? 50 what - Well, the feminism piece, again, I wasn't active in it because, but I knew about the women's movement because after the civil rights movement and the height of it in Washington, I was a young adult when there was the women's movement the feminist movement was burgeoning, and the anti war movement. So I saw all of those things happening in Washington, and while I wasn't, I didn't actively engage in them, they made a mark on me. You know, they had an influence on how I began to think. And so it wasn't until I actually started working with the Fund for Southern Communities and realized that there is a whole, there is so much unfinished business, from civil rights and other movements that came out of civil rights, the modern Civil Rights Day left to address and it was through funding social justice, that I decided to continue to be active in my community on a number of fronts. One was, you know, looking at the women's movement and coming in contact with lesbian feminists - Who were they? Who were the lesbian? - That's when I met Suzanne Pharr, Jill Gomez, Mandy Carter, Mab Segrest people, my cohort, they were the ones that I really learned a lot about, that I learned from as it relates to feminist theory and feminist Barbara Smith, you know, Audre Lorde just reading about, I never met Audre Lorde, but reading about her and hearing about her from these women. I realized that, you know, what I am working to help mitigate, you know, these are my beliefs as well. This is what I bring as part of my experience growing up as a black person in Washington, DC. - So, did you run into Suzanne and Mandy and Mab through the Fund for Southern Communities or? - I did, I did, I did, I actually did. I was the Director, actually, I started off as the Development Director. That was actually my entree to social justice actual social justice work. Because I started meeting community activists from around the country, as part of the Funding Exchange network, and particularly here in the South, you know, living I live in the community where Martin Luther King grew up. - Wow. - And so, I started learning about this work through social justice funding, and started meeting the activists. And here in Atlanta, I was working on another front. I got involved politically by working on political campaign. And so I worked on former mayor Jackson's political campaign and he then appointed me as a liaison to the lesbian and gay community in his second administration, And that's how I became politically involved in Atlanta as an African American lesbian. He appointed me to a number of boards and commissions. And I also got involved in my neighborhood work. So I was doing that at the same time that I was funding social justice and learning, you know about it. And I met Mandy Carter and Mab and Suzanne and Pam McMichael You know, I met them all. They had all attended the Creating Change conference in North Carolina. I didn't attend that conference, but that's when you know, they sought of birthed the idea of a group. That would be you know, bi-racial group, looking at, really focusing on the interconnection of race, class, gender, sexual orientation. They brought the idea to me because I was you know, funder and I said, hey, I wanna be part of this. Like I wanna be part of it You know, and I think what I brought was, you know, the whole piece of, you know, the funding piece to it. - Well, that is a huge piece. I think that means oh my goodness. Can you hear me? Cause I think a call is trying to come through I don't even know how you get rid of this call waiting thing. - We'll just wait, We'll just wait - Yeah, eventually. It's my mother. I think I'm gonna have to - You wanna call me back? - Yeah. I'll call you right back. - Okay. Sure, sure. - It was no problem, okay. Alright. We were talking about, oh, they can be used for funding. Because you had that expertise - Well yeah, they came to me to talk about the idea. And I think the initial conversation may have been about funding but not necessarily - Well, they came to you because you were with the Fund for Southern Communities and knew how to find money for social justice issues. In fact, when I was reading about the Fund for Southern communities, it sounds a lot like what SONG does I was trying to, It's not specifically for lesbian and gay, but it's for social justice issues. - Yes, yes. The Fund for Southern communities actually is part of what used to be called the Funding Exchange Network. And that was a network of, the Funding Exchange was the headquarters in New York. They just recently closed their doors, unfortunately. But there were 15 sons across the United States that had a mission of funding social justice work. Advocacy as opposed to service. And so the Funding Exchange was one of the southern members of the Funding Exchange. And so the focus was to basically fund social justice work in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia. So essentially it was a public foundation, we raised our money to give our money away. And what was unique about the foundation is that it really was the concept of funding social justice was to really challenge the status quo of power dynamics. So grantees, as well as donors served on the governing body to make decisions about where its money would go. - I don't really know anything about that. This still exists, right? The Fund for Southern Communities. Or did it go away with the Funding Exchange - No, it still exists. Alice Jenkins is the executive director. But yes, yeah, it should Yeah, I guess that noticed you know, within the last six months that the Funding Exchange was closing its doors I was sorry to hear that. - Yeah, well, it sounds like the things that - So it was also one the first funds in the southeast to fund lesbian and gay issues. - Oh, so the Fund for Southern Communities was already funding lesbian and gay? - Yes, oh yes. - Okay. so that really is a very good match for what SONG was wanting to do. SONG. How is SONG different, of course it's not just about raising money and I guess that's what you were mainly doing is raising money. - Right. - And then giving it away. - Right. - And what does SONG do that's different from that. - Well, I think SONG is more program, SONG actually provide programs. The Fund for Southern communities was not an operating foundation were it actually, you know, administered programs per se but SONG does. SONG is a programmatic organization. So you know it raises money to, unless their mission has changed and I don't know, but it actually goes in and provides the services or provides the program management that's needed to administer the program better so that's part of its mission. - So did the Fund for Southern Communities fund any SONG project? - It did fund SONG initially. I think we did give SONG a grant - Let's see there's a question about lesbian feminist activism. We already talked about it before. You were working for the Fund for Southern Communities. You met all these women who were lesbian feminists and activists and your feminism it's hard to be a social justice activists and not a feminist, I guess at this point. - For me, you know, my thinking and actions, you know are progressive. You know, and that's always challenged you know, but I have always considered myself a feminist. I mean, I read about feminist when I was in college. - Right. - And so you know, women who are independent thinkers, women and men who are independent thinkers, men who support women in their initiatives I consider you know, and call themselves feminists. I don't have an issue with that. But I have always seen myself as an independent woman. An independent thinking woman. And of course, I'm speaking out for justice. That's how I look at it. I never identify myself with the white feminist movement. - But you did identify with Audre Lorde and Barbara Smith - Yes. - Yeah. There's a new book out by Carol Giardina about the early feminist movement. It starts in, I think 1952. It starts with Simone de Beauvoir, and it ends - Oh yes, and I've read a lot of her - Good. Well, this talks about, it makes a big argument for the black feminist movement there was a lot more than people acknowledge because we're kind of aware now that it was perceived as a white movement. - Right. Well, see you know, I grew up, my mother, you know, was primarily a single mother and she raised us and I saw her work I saw her refuse to take welfare. And she raised us you know, with the help, with support from my dad, but my dad wasn't in the house with us. And, so I saw her all her life, take care of us. And advocate for us and advocated for herself. And so that's my role model you know, of a feminist. Someone who, you know, had her own mind and did what she needed to do, and, you know, did the best that she could. And instilled in us to always be able to have a place to live, have a job, career and be able to take care of yourself and not depend on anyone else. So that's where I got my feminist values. - Yeah, in the home. And so many white women were getting it from, you know, the movement because they weren't seeing that in their homes. So SONG is really, is unique in the way it brings together what they call an intersectionality particularly feminism and racism and gay rights and focuses on not just single identity issues that's what - Right, right, right the thinking there was that we did not want to marginalized that work because there was so many intersections of it, you know, and that's why we have white women, black women, oh, you know we were all chasing that but we brought in younger people we brought in men at one time and I think men are participating now. But you know, we did not want to marginalize our work because, you know, there was no hierarchy of oppression and we wanted to make sure that you know, if I were to go to a table that I know that I have a lot of issues to represent that I'm gonna bring all of those issues with me and not forget. And I would want that to happen if somebody else were invited to the table and I wasn't at that table, but I can rest assured that I know that whatever it is, that was the main concern to me was gonna be represented. And building allies. You know, it's like, again, there was no hierarchy of oppression, or there is no hierarchy of oppression, and we really need to build allies across movements. That makes our case a lot stronger. And we catch more people that way. So we were deliberate in making sure that because we didn't often wanna be pitted against each other because I think at the time that we were forming SONG, there was a lot of controversy going on around the gay rights movement being compared to the civil rights movement. And black people did not wanna be compared to white gay people, because the gay movement was white gay men, primarily. And that was not the civil rights movement. So we wanted to break down some of that, break down those barriers and get to the root causes of why there is so much hatred and discrimination. - Had you already gotten to that place in your thinking when Mandy and those others who had been at Creating Change came to you about SONG? - I had because I realized it was the aha moment of realizing that oh my goodness, we have a gay movement going on here. It's sorta clicked for me, that even while I was working with gay rights at the time, going from one meeting to another, thinking about how you know as a black woman you think about how do you present yourself in the world? A lot of people take that for granted. We were taught that when you're in public, you have to present a certain way. When you are with, you know, whoever you're with, you need to be conscious of who you are, and where you are because you know, you're taught place in this culture. And so I realized, hey, I'm a woman. I'm African American, I'm now lesbian. I'm still having to face some of the same challenges that I faced being one or the other. So all of it I am a political, my being is political. My total being is political. And now I'm a senior. And I had foot surgery that went wrong. So that could possibly be a disability. You know, so it's like all of these things that happened to, that encompass who I am, I realized that early on, I'm one person with all of those issues, I could either segment them out, or I could bring them all to the party with me. And that was the connection for me on a personal level, that was my life. My personal life is political, because of who I am in this society. And so I came to that before I met, before I got involved with SONG. So it's on a practical level. And I tell you this thing I can remember, sitting on my bed one morning, having to go to a meeting and trying to figure out what I was gonna wear that day. My hair was in, I was starting to grow locks, And I thought, my goodness, the mayor has appointed me to serve on this committee. And now I have to go, I must sit with people that are you know, movers and shakers of this city. And how do I present myself and I thought, my God, you know, why do I have to deal with people telling me how to be? And it sorta clicked. It's like the same thing that I went through as a black woman I'm now having to deal with it as a lesbian. And so it's like, okay, so there is, you know, so for me, that's what it was about. And when I met the SONG girls, that kind of put it all in, you know, an intellectual context. - That's interesting, the SONG girls. - Yes, yes. - They put it in a intellectual context. - Yes. In a you know, intellectual activists context. Yeah. But for me it was a practical thing. It was like why am I carrying these burdens? Why are people telling me how to exist? I didn't like that. - Why are people telling me how to exist? A very good line. So your story of the founding of SONG is gonna be different from theirs because of not being and Creating Change when they were So they come to you. Did they come in person? Did they call you on the phone? What's going on? - Oh they did, no, no, I actually had a phone call that, you know. Several folks wanted to sit and talk with me. In fact, it was Pam McMichael, it might have been Mab Segret. I'm not quite sure if Suzanne was at that first meeting, she may have been because they decided to meet in a glance I think, they were all just passing saying they all wanted to sit and meet with me and they wanted to tell me about this idea. That they has thought about while they were at Creating Change, and started describing what it is that they wanted to do. I said, well count me in. I am like, really, and you know, I wanna be a part of this and I used that and I was in awe of them because they had been out there working in the trenches on this for years. And I wanted to be a part of it, because I could see that this was something that the movement needed at the time. And that it was, you know, we could really have an impact on the social justice work and really working to forward the movement by making sure that there was an interconnection with other social justice movements and issues. - So this was an idea that really clicked for the six of you at one time and how did it get from being an idea that you were enthusiastic about to an entity? Do you? - As we continued to meet with you know, we had a number of meetings moving forward. And we thought well, you know, if we really want this to last, you know to sustain itself then we need to create an organization. Which means that we have to incorporate we have to have bylaws. We have to, you know, hire staff to make sure that the work is moving, we have to raise money. And so we would have retreats periodically. And you may already have this information but the way that we came up with the name SONG - I don't have this - we were at a retreat and we were thinking, okay, if we're an entity then we have to have a name. And I felt well you know, we're in the South. And when you think about the South, you know, culture, music, food you know, it's gotta have a cultural ring to it. And so, we came up with SONG and it's like, okay, so what does SONG mean? - You thought of the word first and then you made up the acronym? - Yeah. And it's like how about a song? And it's like okay, and so what could SONG mean? And it was like okay, Southern, Southerners On New Ground - Yeah. I love that. - I mean it wasn't that easy but you know after fooling around with it it was like, okay we like that. - That's great. I love that too. Were you always in Atlanta? Where would you have these retreats? - No. We would go. We would either go to you know, like up towards the mountains outside of Atlanta, we went to Kentucky a number of times. You know, we try to move around, we go to North Carolina. So we go wherever the women were. So Pam McMichael was in Kentucky. Suzanne was in Arkansas. So we you know, I think we went to Delaware Mab and Mandy, we're in North Carolina and Pat and I were here in Atlanta. So we wanted to make sure that we, you know, because this was gonna not just be an Atlanta thing. We moved around, we would go to the beach, we would go to a retreat center, you know, we would find places to go off. And be. - And you were just doing this on your own out of pocket, it was your personal money you were spending on this? - Yes. - And who was the ringleader? I mean, somebody has to - I mean that's interesting I'm gonna say that if grant either came from the Funding Exchange or it came from Funds for Southern Communities. When we got our first grant, we brought on Pam McMichael and Pat Hussain as co directors, Pat being here in Atlanta, Pam being in Louisville, Kentucky. And they sort of organized everything and then the rest of us were the founding board members and they were also board members but they were also staff. - So they did the nitty gritty work of filing for incorporation and stuff. - Yes, yes. - We have not got those interviews yet. - Oh, okay. - I'm having trouble getting in touch with Pam and she may be out of the office this week or something. And Pat with Lorraine Fontana lives in Atlanta - Oh yes, I know Lorraine - She sees Pat a good bit and is planning to. She was just recently interviewed by this what's it called Touching Up Our Roots? - Oh okay. - It's a gay project. So we were just gonna I have sent some money to that group and asked to have a copy and permission to excerpt from those interviews. But I really wanna hear her story of SONG especially since she and Pam were the ones who you know the ones on the ground. - Yes, they were, they were. - So everybody else, Did Pam and Pat become full time on SONG or was this just? - They did, yes they did, they did. - And so the rest of you were still with your regular jobs? - Yes. - With SONG as a board. - Our regular jobs and we were a board we were the founding board. And we would meet be either here in Atlanta or we would meet in North Carolina well we went to Louisville a couple times. And then I think I'm trying to remember when because when Pat was no longer able to fulfill that role, Mandy Carter came on as director. And then we had a number of folks who joined the staff because by then we were starting to receive funding from a number of places. We were able to, you know, create staff and, you know, get the work going. - It's a very young staff now, I was looking at the website. I think Suzanne said she's the only one over, she's working half time for SONG now. - Oh, okay. - And she she's the oldest person and the next eldest is 40. And then everybody else is under 40. - Yeah, you know, for a long time, we would have discussions about opening it up to men. And for the first couple of years, we were adamant whenever we brought that topic up, we were all ended up at very adamant, no, we did not want men at this point. Because we felt that we had more work to do, in establishing it as an organization. - Well, that's interesting, because that's also very true of, you know, most women's organizations, and I guess now and even the American Association of University Women admits men now. But in those days that was - I think and you know, SONG does too but you know, at first, it was just a little touchy for us. You know, it's like, you know, we're just not there yet. We still have some work to do in building the foundation of this group. And we really want to make sure that we have a solid foundation, which meant that because, you know, we were getting to know each other because we knew of each other, but we didn't really know each other. We had to build the bonds of trust. And we had to learn each other. And, you know, make sure that the organization was not just dependent on one person or one personality, that it was about all of us and our collective wisdom, which is when you ask the question who ran things, you know, who was the ringleader? There really was no ringleader per se. We all had a role. And it was a collective role. Even though we knew that we had to designate you know, some key people to run the organization. And we wanted to make sure that our dynamics could be sustainable. Before we opened it up, to the others to come in. - That's a good point. Who of those other five women did you know the best? you said that you - I knew Pat Hussain because we worked in the same community here. So I knew Pat Hussain. I didn't know Pam McMichael at all. She was new to me. I had heard of Suzanne Pharr, but hadn't really met Suzanne. I knew Mab a little because her partner Barbara was on the board of the Fund for Southern Communities. So I knew Mab but I didn't know her well. And I knew of Mandy and had met Mandy because we funded a group that Mandy was part of as well. So I knew, you know, Mandy and Mab through the work of the Fund for Southern Communities but I knew Pat because of our work here in the Atlanta community, you know, being one of several outblacks, as we called ourselves outblack radical blacks at the time and I knew of Suzanne because of her work and her writing. - I think that's really interesting that you all came together you found each other and then it worked so well. So many organizations you know, you had these good ideas and it just you know, it doesn't survive the initial enthusiasm. - Exactly, exactly. - And how would you account for that that SONG did survive the initial enthusiasm and did live on to pay - I think that you know, when I look at the women that, I was just so in awe of them because of the work that they had had and this is a serious group of women. I thought I brought some you know, comic relief. From a different perspective. my commitment was just as strong. but I didn't have the activist experience that they had And so I think, you know, on an individual level, each of us brought a certain level of commitment to this work. And, we're very serious about making sure that whatever our vision was for how we want to be in society, we've had to demonstrate that in our work. So when things got tight or hard, we took time out, to really get wisdom. That was very important. And to really understand, you know, what was happening to a person or where a person was coming from. Hello, - I'm here, I'm still here. - Oh, okay, - I'm just nodding my head. - Okay, no, I think that was my cell vibration but that's okay. So I think it was the commitment that each of us brought to this work to make sure that you know, we want this to withstand the test of time. And that if we run up against issues, we are committed to staying in it to work through those issues. - I wonder also this has been the last question I think, unless there's something you thought of. Have you thought of anything that you needed to say? - No, no. This is good. - I've been trying to sort of, I'm seeing this chapter, the SONG chapter is the last chapter of the Sister Wisdom issue. We're gonna start with Gainesville because there was a lot of early stuff in Gainesville. Byllye Avery she was a co founder of the Gainesville Women's Health Center. There was just a whole lot going on there. So we're starting with Gainesville. And we wanna end with SONG, and that's 68 is when we begin and 94 is when we end. So SONG is 93. And I guess it's 93 is when the Creating Change was and then that started then. And I'm looking at, I'm trying to get a sense of I see SONG as a new beginning, that a lot of things had run their course. A lot of, you know, revolutionary ideas and separatism and a lot of people had burned out and moved on to other things. And SONG was like a breath of fresh air in a way. What do you think? You all came to it from different places, activism and social justice, but you came to it with different histories for you why was SONG the right thing at the right time? Where was it historically for you? How did it fit? - Where was it historically for me? - Yeah. Why was it the thing to do then? - You know, well for me, I think because there was so much that I saw that was unfinished with the civil rights movement. Like I said, I wasn't that actively engaged in the feminist movement, but there were all of these movements that were still working. And it's like, okay, so where are we? Where are we, in terms of, I saw them as separate movement. And so I think, for me, it was how do we make a connection here? Because again, I had to go back to myself. It's like, when I walk into a room, I tell you what it was that question that would come up sometimes, are you first a lesbian? Or are you first African American? If I'm sitting in a room. And I would say, what do you mean am I first African American or first lesbian? I am an African American woman, lesbian. That's the total of me. I can't separate myself. And so for me, I think you know, for me, it was alright, so if we're gonna do something, it can't be business as usual. We have to continue to move this forward. And so how we make the connection so if I'm gonna go in a room and say, I'm here as an African American first, or I'm here as a lesbian first. The total of me is in this room, dealing with all of the issues that I have to deal with as a person. And so, you know, for me, it was if we're going to do this, we've gotta to be about making sure that we stay in the future and moving this forward. Without the separation, we can no longer can continue to separate ourselves. Because there is a connection. - That's good, we can no longer can continue to separate ourselves. Well, this is very good. I think I'm gonna be able to use a lot of this. I'm gonna type my notes. And I'll listen to the interview so that I can correct where I didn't transcribe it right. - Yes, yes, yes. - And then what I'll do is email you those. And if you need me to I could, I could just go ahead and snail mail at the same time, the email will give you an electronic copy in case you want to get in there and write things. - Sure, sure. But you don't have to write anything. You just have to correct anything I get wrong. - Okay, sure. - And I'm hoping to do this quickly. But I've got another set of interviews coming up and it helps if I do it right away. So I might get it turned around very fast. But you will be hearing from me. - Okay, well thank you. I've enjoyed talking about it. - Well good, I've enjoyed listening to you it's very different from the other interviews I've done Suzanne and Mandy, I've talked with Suzanne and Mandy so far. And it's completely different stories not difference in opinion - I hope that our recollection of how we came together is similar but yeah, completely different stories. - Yeah, there's no contradiction. It's just interesting how the puzzle pieces fit together. Very very interesting. - Great. Well, I look forward to seeing it and thank you so much for doing this work. - Sure I love doing this work. It's really great. - Alright - Alright well have a good weekend I appreciate the interview - You too.