WEBVTT
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Turning on the tape recorder now.
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This is Rose Norman
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and I'm interviewing Joan Garner
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by phone on April 13th 2013.
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And now I'm gonna turn this phone on speaker
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so that the tape recorder can hear you as well as me
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Okay
Okay
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I'll try to remember to project
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Okay, well, I've got the phone
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right next to the tape recorder
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Okay, I have a little brief bio
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that I've put in front of these interviews
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and I wrote it based on
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what I found in your resume and so on.
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Okay
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I said you were born and raised in Washington DC,
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is that correct?
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That is correct.
Okay.
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And you've lived in Atlanta since 78
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You majored in English
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at the University of the District of Columbia
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Uh huh
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And then earned a Master's Degree
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in Organizational Communication from Howard University.
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That's correct.
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Currently County Commissioner
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for Georgia's District 6.
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Yeah Fulton County.
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Fulton County.
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District 6
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District 6
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and at the time
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when you were one of the co-founders of SONG,
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you were a director of the Fund for Southern Communities.
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That's correct.
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Okay. All right.
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Well, I'd like to start out by asking
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what made you a social justice activist?
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If there was an aha moment?
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Mandy talks about the
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American Friends Service Committee person who
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Sure I grew up in the 50s and 60s in Washington.
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And it was actually during
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the height of the civil rights movement.
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And it was actually
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the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King.
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I was in the 11th grade.
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That really was the aha for me.
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I was attending,
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I was part of a high school sorority,
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and I was attending an annual conference
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of our girls from New York to Virginia,
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we were meeting in Washington DC that weekend, April 4th
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at the Washington Hilton Hotel.
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we got word that Martin Luther King had been assassinated.
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There was a curfew put on the city,
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so we couldn't leave the hotel.
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And we were about 150 African American girls
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and the rest of the hotel was completely white,
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except for the, you know, the maids and the service staff.
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And we were just petrified about the assassination.
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And the curfew.
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It was just, you know, we didn't know what was going on.
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So our sponsors that weekend said,
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we're going to,
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since we can't leave,
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we're going to go ahead with our conference
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that we're gonna dedicate it to Martin Luther King Jr.
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And we're gonna make sure that you understand
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the history, your history as black people,
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and you understand the social justice movement of Dr. King.
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And so that's what we did that weekend.
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And when I left there,
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I else, the other thing that was traumatic was that
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we could go to our hotel rooms
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and look out the window
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and start to see New Street in Washington DC
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starting to burn
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as a result, and that was very impactful.
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And so when I left that weekend,
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I knew that my purpose was about social justice.
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I didn't quite know how I would fulfill that purpose.
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But I knew that what motivated me
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was working for my people
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and working for justice.
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And so, you know, fast forward ahead,
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years later, it wasn't until I came out actually,
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as a lesbian in the early 80s
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and then got involved with the lesbian gay movement
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in the late 80s,
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that was, oh my goodness,
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here's my opportunity to work for social justice.
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As an African American, lesbian woman,
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there were very few of us at the time
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who were willing to work publicly,
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or to acknowledge ourselves publicly, as being gay
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and to work for the cause.
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And so that's how I actually got involved as an activist.
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But I was always,
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you know, justice was always a motivating factor for me
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and everything that I did.
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Well, that's a good story.
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Sounds like an amazing weekend.
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Thank you.
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God, whoa.
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So that's interesting
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that it was a lesbian and gay activism.
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Were you Atlanta by then?
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I guess you were
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I was in Atlanta,
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and when I came to Atlanta I was married,
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and had been married for a few years,
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so I really didn't, you know, understand.
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I didn't know anything about the gay movement.
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I didn't realize there was a gay movement.
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There was an AIDS epidemic happening.
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And it was really,
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I got involved in it.
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So, when I came out, I got involved in
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and this was after I had divorced my husband.
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A few years later,
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I got involved with the first
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HR, Human Rights Campaign Fund
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dinner committee here in Atlanta.
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And it was at that point
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that I said that I would get involved.
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But I didn't realize that there was a whole,
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I got involved and it was a focus on AIDS
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I didn't realize there was a whole lesbian and gay movement
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that I didn't know about.
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And so when I learned about the lesbian gay movement
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through working with the HRC dinner committee
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And trying to piece all this together,
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you know, cause it's like,
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okay, I'm doing this, why am I doing this then?
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If I'm doing this
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I'm publicly stating that I am a lesbian,
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which means that, you know,
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there's no hiding it
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I've gotta be out,
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but I've gotta understand what I'm doing
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and why I'm doing it.
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And it was about, you know,
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it was about here we are
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another group of people
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that are being discriminated.
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Because for me growing up,
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if you were gay, that meant you had a mental illness.
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Even though there were several gay people in my family.
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Really? Did you know them?
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There was something wrong,
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it was not spoken.
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You know, everybody knew it,
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but you know, you just didn't discuss it.
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I have a cousin and an uncle.
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And when I came out,
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and told my mother
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and she said, Joey, that's no problem.
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She said, you know,
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growing up, my best friend was a gay man.
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We go to his house for parties
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one side of the house would be for gay people
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the other side would be for straight people
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and by the end of the night,
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we were all going back and forth.
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All right. That's amazing.
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That was in Washington or where was that?
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Where'd your mother grow up?
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Washington.
Wow.
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When did feminism come in? 50 what
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Well, the feminism piece,
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again, I wasn't active in it because,
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but I knew about the women's movement
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because after the civil rights movement
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and the height of it in Washington,
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I was a young adult when there was the women's movement
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the feminist movement was burgeoning,
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and the anti war movement.
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So I saw all of those things happening in Washington,
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and while I wasn't,
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I didn't actively engage in them,
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they made a mark on me.
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You know, they had an influence on how I began to think.
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And so it wasn't until I actually started working
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with the Fund for Southern Communities
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and realized that there is a whole,
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there is so much unfinished business,
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from civil rights
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and other movements that came out of civil rights,
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the modern Civil Rights Day
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left to address
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and it was through funding social justice,
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that I decided to continue to be active
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in my community on a number of fronts.
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One was, you know, looking at the women's movement
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and coming in contact with lesbian feminists
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Who were they?
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Who were the lesbian?
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That's when I met Suzanne Pharr, Jill Gomez,
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Mandy Carter, Mab Segrest people, my cohort,
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they were the ones that I really learned a lot about,
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that I learned from
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as it relates to feminist theory and feminist
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Barbara Smith, you know, Audre Lorde
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just reading about,
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I never met Audre Lorde, but reading about her
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and hearing about her from these women.
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I realized that, you know,
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what I am working to help mitigate,
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you know, these are my beliefs as well.
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This is what I bring as part of my experience growing up
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as a black person in Washington, DC.
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So, did you run into Suzanne and Mandy and Mab
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through the Fund for Southern Communities or?
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I did, I did, I did, I actually did.
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I was the Director,
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actually, I started off as the Development Director.
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That was actually my entree to social justice
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actual social justice work.
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Because I started meeting community activists
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from around the country,
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as part of the Funding Exchange network,
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and particularly here in the South,
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you know, living
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I live in the community where Martin Luther King grew up.
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Wow.
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And so, I started learning about this work
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through social justice funding,
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and started meeting the activists.
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And here in Atlanta, I was working on another front.
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I got involved politically by working on political campaign.
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And so I worked on former mayor Jackson's political campaign
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and he then appointed me as a liaison
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to the lesbian and gay community
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in his second administration,
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And that's how I became politically involved in Atlanta
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as an African American lesbian.
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He appointed me to a number of boards and commissions.
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And I also got involved in my neighborhood work.
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So I was doing that at the same time
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that I was funding social justice
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and learning, you know about it.
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And I met Mandy Carter and Mab
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and Suzanne and Pam McMichael
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You know, I met them all.
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They had all attended the Creating Change conference
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in North Carolina.
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I didn't attend that conference,
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but that's when you know,
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they sought of birthed the idea of a group.
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That would be you know, bi-racial group,
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looking at,
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really focusing on the interconnection of
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race, class, gender, sexual orientation.
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They brought the idea to me
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because I was you know, funder
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and I said, hey, I wanna be part of this.
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Like I wanna be part of it
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You know, and I think what I brought was,
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you know, the whole piece of,
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you know, the funding piece to it.
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Well, that is a huge piece.
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I think that means oh my goodness.
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Can you hear me?
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Cause I think a call is trying to come through
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I don't even know how you get rid of
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this call waiting thing.
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We'll just wait, We'll just wait
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Yeah, eventually.
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It's my mother. I think I'm gonna have to
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You wanna call me back?
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Yeah. I'll call you right back.
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Okay. Sure, sure.
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00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:39.277
It was no problem, okay.
275
00:12:41.753 --> 00:12:43.931
Alright. We were talking about,
276
00:12:43.931 --> 00:12:45.857
oh, they can be used for funding.
277
00:12:45.857 --> 00:12:48.045
Because you had that expertise
278
00:12:48.045 --> 00:12:52.378
Well yeah, they came to me to talk about the idea.
279
00:12:54.724 --> 00:12:56.380
And I think the initial conversation
280
00:12:56.380 --> 00:12:59.400
may have been about funding but not necessarily
281
00:13:01.550 --> 00:13:04.050
Well, they came to you because you were with the
282
00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:06.820
Fund for Southern Communities
283
00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:10.950
and knew how to find money for social justice issues.
284
00:13:10.950 --> 00:13:12.580
In fact, when I was reading about
285
00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:14.370
the Fund for Southern communities,
286
00:13:14.370 --> 00:13:17.160
it sounds a lot like what SONG does
287
00:13:17.160 --> 00:13:18.003
I was trying to,
288
00:13:19.150 --> 00:13:21.100
It's not specifically for lesbian and gay,
289
00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:26.100
but it's for social justice issues.
290
00:13:26.371 --> 00:13:27.290
Yes, yes.
291
00:13:27.290 --> 00:13:30.550
The Fund for Southern communities actually is part of
292
00:13:30.550 --> 00:13:34.050
what used to be called the Funding Exchange Network.
293
00:13:34.050 --> 00:13:35.980
And that was a network of,
294
00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:38.680
the Funding Exchange was the headquarters in New York.
295
00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:42.760
They just recently closed their doors, unfortunately.
296
00:13:42.760 --> 00:13:46.070
But there were 15 sons across the United States
297
00:13:46.070 --> 00:13:49.620
that had a mission of funding social justice work.
298
00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:52.113
Advocacy as opposed to service.
299
00:13:53.670 --> 00:13:55.520
And so the Funding Exchange
300
00:13:55.520 --> 00:14:00.520
was one of the southern members of the Funding Exchange.
301
00:14:00.607 --> 00:14:05.590
And so the focus was to basically fund social justice work
302
00:14:05.590 --> 00:14:09.293
in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.
303
00:14:10.817 --> 00:14:14.310
So essentially it was a public foundation,
304
00:14:14.310 --> 00:14:16.210
we raised our money to give our money away.
305
00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:18.610
And what was unique about the foundation is that
306
00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:23.540
it really was the concept of funding social justice
307
00:14:23.540 --> 00:14:28.540
was to really challenge the status quo of power dynamics.
308
00:14:30.890 --> 00:14:35.890
So grantees, as well as donors served on the governing body
309
00:14:36.170 --> 00:14:39.423
to make decisions about where its money would go.
310
00:14:42.484 --> 00:14:44.680
I don't really know anything about that.
311
00:14:44.680 --> 00:14:45.670
This still exists, right?
312
00:14:45.670 --> 00:14:47.030
The Fund for Southern Communities.
313
00:14:47.030 --> 00:14:48.968
Or did it go away with the Funding Exchange
314
00:14:48.968 --> 00:14:50.343
No, it still exists.
315
00:14:51.420 --> 00:14:54.323
Alice Jenkins is the executive director.
316
00:14:57.180 --> 00:15:00.120
But yes, yeah, it should
317
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.040
Yeah, I guess that noticed you know,
318
00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:04.530
within the last six months that
319
00:15:04.530 --> 00:15:06.630
the Funding Exchange was closing its doors
320
00:15:08.710 --> 00:15:10.070
I was sorry to hear that.
321
00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:13.530
Yeah, well, it sounds like the things that
322
00:15:13.530 --> 00:15:15.950
So it was also one the first funds
323
00:15:15.950 --> 00:15:19.133
in the southeast to fund lesbian and gay issues.
324
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.780
Oh, so the Fund for Southern Communities
325
00:15:25.780 --> 00:15:28.266
was already funding lesbian and gay?
326
00:15:28.266 --> 00:15:29.270
Yes, oh yes.
327
00:15:29.270 --> 00:15:34.230
Okay. so that really is a very good match
328
00:15:34.230 --> 00:15:36.200
for what SONG was wanting to do.
329
00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:39.030
SONG. How is SONG different,
330
00:15:39.030 --> 00:15:41.370
of course it's not just about raising money
331
00:15:41.370 --> 00:15:43.100
and I guess that's what you were mainly doing
332
00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:44.220
is raising money.
333
00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:45.190
Right.
334
00:15:45.190 --> 00:15:46.661
And then giving it away.
335
00:15:46.661 --> 00:15:47.730
Right.
336
00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:50.280
And what does SONG do that's different from that.
337
00:15:51.370 --> 00:15:54.610
Well, I think SONG is more program,
338
00:15:54.610 --> 00:15:56.473
SONG actually provide programs.
339
00:15:57.650 --> 00:16:00.120
The Fund for Southern communities was not
340
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:02.923
an operating foundation were it actually,
341
00:16:04.210 --> 00:16:06.520
you know, administered programs per se
342
00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:07.723
but SONG does.
343
00:16:12.051 --> 00:16:13.197
SONG is a programmatic organization.
344
00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:23.000
So you know it raises money to,
345
00:16:23.000 --> 00:16:25.874
unless their mission has changed and I don't know,
346
00:16:25.874 --> 00:16:30.860
but it actually goes in and provides the services
347
00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:34.730
or provides the program management that's needed
348
00:16:34.730 --> 00:16:37.250
to administer the program better
349
00:16:39.050 --> 00:16:40.550
so that's part of its mission.
350
00:16:40.550 --> 00:16:42.460
So did the Fund for Southern Communities
351
00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:43.560
fund any SONG project?
352
00:16:44.909 --> 00:16:47.943
It did fund SONG initially.
353
00:16:51.050 --> 00:16:53.783
I think we did give SONG a grant
354
00:17:02.711 --> 00:17:05.940
Let's see there's a question about
355
00:17:07.340 --> 00:17:09.800
lesbian feminist activism.
356
00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:11.500
We already talked about it before.
357
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.860
You were working for the Fund for Southern Communities.
358
00:17:16.860 --> 00:17:19.320
You met all these women
359
00:17:19.320 --> 00:17:21.360
who were lesbian feminists and activists
360
00:17:25.030 --> 00:17:26.640
and your feminism
361
00:17:27.790 --> 00:17:30.687
it's hard to be a social justice activists
362
00:17:30.687 --> 00:17:34.130
and not a feminist, I guess at this point.
363
00:17:34.130 --> 00:17:39.130
For me, you know, my thinking and actions,
364
00:17:39.530 --> 00:17:40.913
you know are progressive.
365
00:17:41.790 --> 00:17:44.710
You know, and that's always challenged
366
00:17:45.928 --> 00:17:50.928
you know, but I have always considered myself a feminist.
367
00:17:51.340 --> 00:17:55.150
I mean, I read about feminist when I was in college.
368
00:17:55.150 --> 00:17:56.580
Right.
369
00:17:56.580 --> 00:17:58.810
And so you know,
370
00:17:58.810 --> 00:18:02.720
women who are independent thinkers,
371
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.130
women and men who are independent thinkers,
372
00:18:05.130 --> 00:18:10.130
men who support women in their initiatives
373
00:18:11.270 --> 00:18:14.920
I consider you know, and call themselves feminists.
374
00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:16.520
I don't have an issue with that.
375
00:18:17.710 --> 00:18:22.240
But I have always
376
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:26.053
seen myself as an independent woman.
377
00:18:27.270 --> 00:18:29.913
An independent thinking woman.
378
00:18:30.810 --> 00:18:34.393
And of course, I'm speaking out for justice.
379
00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:41.510
That's how I look at it.
380
00:18:41.510 --> 00:18:44.923
I never identify myself with the white feminist movement.
381
00:18:47.770 --> 00:18:51.151
But you did identify with Audre Lorde and Barbara Smith
382
00:18:51.151 --> 00:18:52.743
Yes.
383
00:18:55.191 --> 00:18:57.880
Yeah. There's a new book out by
384
00:18:59.760 --> 00:19:04.470
Carol Giardina about the early feminist movement.
385
00:19:04.470 --> 00:19:07.730
It starts in, I think 1952.
386
00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:10.420
It starts with Simone de Beauvoir, and it ends
387
00:19:10.420 --> 00:19:13.400
Oh yes, and I've read a lot of her
388
00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:15.700
Good. Well, this talks about,
389
00:19:15.700 --> 00:19:20.700
it makes a big argument for the black feminist movement
390
00:19:22.211 --> 00:19:24.810
there was a lot more than people acknowledge
391
00:19:24.810 --> 00:19:27.330
because we're kind of aware now
392
00:19:27.330 --> 00:19:29.800
that it was perceived as a white movement.
393
00:19:29.800 --> 00:19:32.635
Right. Well, see you know, I grew up,
394
00:19:32.635 --> 00:19:37.635
my mother, you know, was primarily a single mother
395
00:19:39.040 --> 00:19:40.400
and she raised us
396
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:41.700
and I saw her work
397
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:44.143
I saw her refuse to take welfare.
398
00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:47.640
And she raised us you know, with the help,
399
00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:49.200
with support from my dad,
400
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.673
but my dad wasn't in the house with us.
401
00:19:53.553 --> 00:19:58.200
And, so I saw her all her life,
402
00:19:58.200 --> 00:19:59.550
take care of us.
403
00:19:59.550 --> 00:20:03.410
And advocate for us and advocated for herself.
404
00:20:03.410 --> 00:20:07.273
And so that's my role model you know, of a feminist.
405
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:12.270
Someone who, you know, had her own mind
406
00:20:12.270 --> 00:20:15.060
and did what she needed to do,
407
00:20:15.060 --> 00:20:18.410
and, you know, did the best that she could.
408
00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:22.010
And instilled in us to always be able
409
00:20:22.010 --> 00:20:25.163
to have a place to live,
410
00:20:26.490 --> 00:20:29.480
have a job, career
411
00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:31.420
and be able to take care of yourself
412
00:20:31.420 --> 00:20:33.033
and not depend on anyone else.
413
00:20:35.910 --> 00:20:38.208
So that's where I got my feminist values.
414
00:20:38.208 --> 00:20:39.875
Yeah, in the home.
415
00:20:40.847 --> 00:20:44.230
And so many white women were getting it from,
416
00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:45.820
you know, the movement
417
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.653
because they weren't seeing that in their homes.
418
00:20:53.290 --> 00:20:54.873
So SONG is really,
419
00:20:56.460 --> 00:21:00.630
is unique in the way it brings together
420
00:21:00.630 --> 00:21:02.470
what they call an intersectionality
421
00:21:03.526 --> 00:21:08.257
particularly feminism and racism and gay rights
422
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:14.720
and focuses on not just single identity issues that's what
423
00:21:16.290 --> 00:21:17.980
Right, right, right
424
00:21:19.030 --> 00:21:20.350
the thinking there was that
425
00:21:20.350 --> 00:21:23.480
we did not want to marginalized that work
426
00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.100
because there was so many intersections of it, you know,
427
00:21:27.100 --> 00:21:28.580
and that's why we have white women,
428
00:21:28.580 --> 00:21:32.890
black women, oh, you know we were all chasing that
429
00:21:33.867 --> 00:21:35.700
but we brought in younger people
430
00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:38.280
we brought in men at one time
431
00:21:38.280 --> 00:21:41.563
and I think men are participating now.
432
00:21:43.384 --> 00:21:46.900
But you know, we did not want to marginalize our work
433
00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:51.520
because, you know, there was no hierarchy of oppression
434
00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:53.280
and we wanted to make sure that
435
00:21:54.582 --> 00:21:58.430
you know, if I were to go to a table that I know
436
00:21:58.430 --> 00:22:03.230
that I have a lot of issues to represent
437
00:22:03.230 --> 00:22:06.130
that I'm gonna bring all of those issues with me
438
00:22:06.130 --> 00:22:07.223
and not forget.
439
00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:10.460
And I would want that to happen
440
00:22:10.460 --> 00:22:12.840
if somebody else were invited to the table
441
00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:14.420
and I wasn't at that table,
442
00:22:14.420 --> 00:22:18.730
but I can rest assured that I know that whatever it is,
443
00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:23.480
that was the main concern to me was gonna be represented.
444
00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.470
And building allies.
445
00:22:25.470 --> 00:22:27.280
You know, it's like, again,
446
00:22:27.280 --> 00:22:29.830
there was no hierarchy of oppression,
447
00:22:29.830 --> 00:22:32.227
or there is no hierarchy of oppression,
448
00:22:32.227 --> 00:22:37.180
and we really need to build allies across movements.
449
00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:41.580
That makes our case a lot stronger.
450
00:22:41.580 --> 00:22:44.097
And we catch more people that way.
451
00:22:46.702 --> 00:22:49.860
So we were deliberate in making sure that
452
00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:53.190
because we didn't often wanna be pitted against each other
453
00:22:53.190 --> 00:22:54.730
because I think at the time
454
00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:56.810
that we were forming SONG,
455
00:22:56.810 --> 00:23:01.810
there was a lot of controversy going on around
456
00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:04.620
the gay rights movement
457
00:23:04.620 --> 00:23:07.940
being compared to the civil rights movement.
458
00:23:07.940 --> 00:23:12.450
And black people did not wanna be compared
459
00:23:12.450 --> 00:23:14.190
to white gay people,
460
00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:18.773
because the gay movement was white gay men, primarily.
461
00:23:20.170 --> 00:23:22.533
And that was not the civil rights movement.
462
00:23:24.210 --> 00:23:27.480
So we wanted to break down some of that,
463
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:29.020
break down those barriers
464
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.400
and get to the root causes
465
00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:37.343
of why there is so much hatred and discrimination.
466
00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:42.270
Had you already gotten to that place in your thinking
467
00:23:42.270 --> 00:23:44.810
when Mandy and those others
468
00:23:44.810 --> 00:23:48.010
who had been at Creating Change came to you about SONG?
469
00:23:48.010 --> 00:23:52.700
I had because I realized it was the aha moment
470
00:23:52.700 --> 00:23:54.340
of realizing that oh my goodness,
471
00:23:54.340 --> 00:23:57.993
we have a gay movement going on here.
472
00:23:59.100 --> 00:24:01.090
It's sorta clicked for me,
473
00:24:01.090 --> 00:24:06.090
that even while I was working with gay rights at the time,
474
00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.240
going from one meeting to another,
475
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:15.270
thinking about how you know as a black woman you think about
476
00:24:15.270 --> 00:24:17.320
how do you present yourself in the world?
477
00:24:18.410 --> 00:24:20.670
A lot of people take that for granted.
478
00:24:20.670 --> 00:24:23.360
We were taught that when you're in public,
479
00:24:23.360 --> 00:24:25.167
you have to present a certain way.
480
00:24:25.167 --> 00:24:29.020
When you are with, you know, whoever you're with,
481
00:24:29.020 --> 00:24:31.660
you need to be conscious of who you are,
482
00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:33.760
and where you are
483
00:24:33.760 --> 00:24:38.560
because you know, you're taught place in this culture.
484
00:24:38.560 --> 00:24:42.200
And so I realized, hey, I'm a woman.
485
00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:45.610
I'm African American, I'm now lesbian.
486
00:24:45.610 --> 00:24:49.460
I'm still having to face some of the same challenges
487
00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:52.300
that I faced being one or the other.
488
00:24:52.300 --> 00:24:54.603
So all of it I am a political,
489
00:24:54.603 --> 00:24:57.610
my being is political.
490
00:24:57.610 --> 00:25:00.480
My total being is political.
491
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.883
And now I'm a senior.
492
00:25:03.580 --> 00:25:06.060
And I had foot surgery that went wrong.
493
00:25:06.060 --> 00:25:09.480
So that could possibly be a disability.
494
00:25:09.480 --> 00:25:12.932
You know, so it's like all of these things that happened to,
495
00:25:12.932 --> 00:25:17.932
that encompass who I am, I realized that early on,
496
00:25:19.300 --> 00:25:21.970
I'm one person with all of those issues,
497
00:25:21.970 --> 00:25:24.440
I could either segment them out,
498
00:25:24.440 --> 00:25:27.313
or I could bring them all to the party with me.
499
00:25:28.270 --> 00:25:30.120
And that was the connection for me
500
00:25:31.290 --> 00:25:33.040
on a personal level,
501
00:25:33.040 --> 00:25:35.500
that was my life.
502
00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:38.850
My personal life is political,
503
00:25:38.850 --> 00:25:41.863
because of who I am in this society.
504
00:25:43.630 --> 00:25:46.693
And so I came to that before I met,
505
00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:49.563
before I got involved with SONG.
506
00:25:50.410 --> 00:25:51.837
So it's on a practical level.
507
00:25:51.837 --> 00:25:53.960
And I tell you this thing I can remember,
508
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:56.013
sitting on my bed one morning,
509
00:25:57.010 --> 00:25:59.820
having to go to a meeting and trying to figure out
510
00:25:59.820 --> 00:26:01.993
what I was gonna wear that day.
511
00:26:03.860 --> 00:26:04.693
My hair was in,
512
00:26:04.693 --> 00:26:07.373
I was starting to grow locks,
513
00:26:08.857 --> 00:26:11.150
And I thought, my goodness,
514
00:26:11.150 --> 00:26:12.790
the mayor has appointed me
515
00:26:14.492 --> 00:26:16.480
to serve on this committee.
516
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:19.270
And now I have to go, I must sit with people
517
00:26:19.270 --> 00:26:24.270
that are you know, movers and shakers of this city.
518
00:26:25.780 --> 00:26:27.550
And how do I present myself
519
00:26:27.550 --> 00:26:29.380
and I thought, my God, you know,
520
00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:32.130
why do I have to deal with people telling me how to be?
521
00:26:33.509 --> 00:26:34.910
And it sorta clicked.
522
00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:36.960
It's like the same thing
523
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.330
that I went through as a black woman
524
00:26:39.330 --> 00:26:42.130
I'm now having to deal with it as a lesbian.
525
00:26:42.130 --> 00:26:45.980
And so it's like, okay, so there is, you know,
526
00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:48.767
so for me, that's what it was about.
527
00:26:50.700 --> 00:26:53.810
And when I met the SONG girls,
528
00:26:53.810 --> 00:26:55.270
that kind of put it all in,
529
00:26:55.270 --> 00:26:57.203
you know, an intellectual context.
530
00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:02.840
That's interesting, the SONG girls.
531
00:27:02.840 --> 00:27:04.500
Yes, yes.
532
00:27:04.500 --> 00:27:07.250
They put it in a intellectual context.
533
00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:12.010
Yes. In a you know, intellectual activists context.
534
00:27:12.010 --> 00:27:16.240
Yeah. But for me it was a practical thing.
535
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:20.773
It was like why am I carrying these burdens?
536
00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:27.073
Why are people telling me how to exist?
537
00:27:29.977 --> 00:27:31.560
I didn't like that.
538
00:27:33.143 --> 00:27:34.670
Why are people telling me how to exist?
539
00:27:34.670 --> 00:27:35.583
A very good line.
540
00:27:38.320 --> 00:27:40.690
So your story of the founding of SONG
541
00:27:40.690 --> 00:27:41.910
is gonna be different from theirs
542
00:27:41.910 --> 00:27:44.960
because of not being and Creating Change when they were
543
00:27:46.719 --> 00:27:47.573
So they come to you.
544
00:27:47.573 --> 00:27:49.137
Did they come in person?
545
00:27:49.137 --> 00:27:50.410
Did they call you on the phone?
546
00:27:50.410 --> 00:27:51.243
What's going on?
547
00:27:51.243 --> 00:27:52.076
Oh they did, no, no,
548
00:27:52.076 --> 00:27:54.360
I actually had a phone call that, you know.
549
00:27:55.650 --> 00:27:58.681
Several folks wanted to sit and talk with me.
550
00:27:58.681 --> 00:28:00.913
In fact, it was Pam McMichael,
551
00:28:02.060 --> 00:28:03.763
it might have been Mab Segret.
552
00:28:04.970 --> 00:28:07.630
I'm not quite sure if Suzanne was at that first meeting,
553
00:28:07.630 --> 00:28:10.664
she may have been because they decided to meet in a glance
554
00:28:10.664 --> 00:28:13.610
I think, they were all just passing saying
555
00:28:13.610 --> 00:28:15.780
they all wanted to sit and meet with me
556
00:28:15.780 --> 00:28:19.290
and they wanted to tell me about this idea.
557
00:28:19.290 --> 00:28:20.915
That they has thought about
558
00:28:20.915 --> 00:28:23.320
while they were at Creating Change,
559
00:28:23.320 --> 00:28:26.480
and started describing what it is that they wanted to do.
560
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.953
I said, well count me in.
561
00:28:29.530 --> 00:28:32.180
I am like, really, and you know,
562
00:28:32.180 --> 00:28:34.340
I wanna be a part of this and I used that
563
00:28:34.340 --> 00:28:35.173
and I was in awe of them
564
00:28:35.173 --> 00:28:36.800
because they had been out there
565
00:28:36.800 --> 00:28:40.243
working in the trenches on this for years.
566
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:44.310
And I wanted to be a part of it,
567
00:28:44.310 --> 00:28:46.200
because I could see that this was
568
00:28:47.190 --> 00:28:49.753
something that the movement needed at the time.
569
00:28:50.770 --> 00:28:52.264
And that it was, you know,
570
00:28:52.264 --> 00:28:54.700
we could really have an impact
571
00:28:54.700 --> 00:28:56.940
on the social justice work
572
00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:01.940
and really working to forward the movement
573
00:29:05.300 --> 00:29:08.840
by making sure that there was an interconnection
574
00:29:08.840 --> 00:29:13.043
with other social justice movements and issues.
575
00:29:16.530 --> 00:29:19.840
So this was an idea that really clicked
576
00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:24.840
for the six of you at one time
577
00:29:25.294 --> 00:29:28.100
and how did it get from being an idea
578
00:29:28.100 --> 00:29:31.410
that you were enthusiastic about to an entity?
579
00:29:31.410 --> 00:29:32.243
Do you?
580
00:29:35.786 --> 00:29:38.467
As we continued to meet with you know,
581
00:29:38.467 --> 00:29:42.520
we had a number of meetings moving forward.
582
00:29:42.520 --> 00:29:44.700
And we thought well, you know,
583
00:29:44.700 --> 00:29:47.380
if we really want this to
584
00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:52.550
last, you know to sustain itself
585
00:29:52.550 --> 00:29:54.863
then we need to create an organization.
586
00:29:56.010 --> 00:29:57.750
Which means that we have to incorporate
587
00:29:57.750 --> 00:30:00.180
we have to have bylaws.
588
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:03.980
We have to, you know, hire staff
589
00:30:03.980 --> 00:30:06.230
to make sure that the work is moving,
590
00:30:06.230 --> 00:30:07.563
we have to raise money.
591
00:30:09.390 --> 00:30:14.390
And so we would have retreats periodically.
592
00:30:14.560 --> 00:30:18.720
And you may already have this information
593
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.100
but the way that we came up with the name SONG
594
00:30:21.100 --> 00:30:22.190
I don't have this
595
00:30:23.055 --> 00:30:26.060
we were at a retreat
596
00:30:26.060 --> 00:30:27.470
and we were thinking,
597
00:30:27.470 --> 00:30:30.303
okay, if we're an entity then we have to have a name.
598
00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:35.030
And I felt well you know, we're in the South.
599
00:30:35.030 --> 00:30:37.750
And when you think about the South,
600
00:30:37.750 --> 00:30:42.010
you know, culture, music, food
601
00:30:46.660 --> 00:30:51.660
you know, it's gotta have a cultural ring to it.
602
00:30:52.670 --> 00:30:56.120
And so, we came up with SONG
603
00:30:58.010 --> 00:31:01.030
and it's like, okay, so what does SONG mean?
604
00:31:01.030 --> 00:31:02.040
You thought of the word first
605
00:31:02.040 --> 00:31:03.415
and then you made up the acronym?
606
00:31:03.415 --> 00:31:06.653
Yeah. And it's like how about a song?
607
00:31:06.653 --> 00:31:08.943
And it's like okay,
608
00:31:08.943 --> 00:31:11.561
and so what could SONG mean?
609
00:31:11.561 --> 00:31:13.640
And it was like okay, Southern,
610
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:17.460
Southerners On New Ground
611
00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:20.455
Yeah. I love that.
612
00:31:20.455 --> 00:31:21.288
I mean it wasn't that easy
613
00:31:21.288 --> 00:31:22.597
but you know after fooling around with it
614
00:31:22.597 --> 00:31:25.999
it was like, okay we like that.
615
00:31:25.999 --> 00:31:27.687
That's great. I love that too.
616
00:31:29.420 --> 00:31:31.220
Were you always in Atlanta?
617
00:31:31.220 --> 00:31:33.670
Where would you have these retreats?
618
00:31:33.670 --> 00:31:34.710
No. We would go.
619
00:31:34.710 --> 00:31:35.830
We would either go to
620
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:41.010
you know, like up towards the mountains
621
00:31:42.520 --> 00:31:44.330
outside of Atlanta,
622
00:31:44.330 --> 00:31:46.943
we went to Kentucky a number of times.
623
00:31:48.219 --> 00:31:49.320
You know, we try to move around,
624
00:31:49.320 --> 00:31:51.540
we go to North Carolina.
625
00:31:51.540 --> 00:31:53.530
So we go wherever the women were.
626
00:31:53.530 --> 00:31:55.623
So Pam McMichael was in Kentucky.
627
00:31:56.460 --> 00:31:57.850
Suzanne was in Arkansas.
628
00:31:57.850 --> 00:32:00.997
So we you know, I think we went to Delaware
629
00:32:02.537 --> 00:32:04.630
Mab and Mandy, we're in North Carolina
630
00:32:04.630 --> 00:32:07.670
and Pat and I were here in Atlanta.
631
00:32:07.670 --> 00:32:10.830
So we wanted to make sure that we, you know,
632
00:32:10.830 --> 00:32:14.760
because this was gonna not just be an Atlanta thing.
633
00:32:14.760 --> 00:32:16.350
We moved around,
634
00:32:16.350 --> 00:32:18.150
we would go to the beach,
635
00:32:18.150 --> 00:32:20.505
we would go to a retreat center,
636
00:32:20.505 --> 00:32:24.550
you know, we would find places to go off.
637
00:32:24.550 --> 00:32:25.383
And be.
638
00:32:26.340 --> 00:32:28.227
And you were just doing this on your own
639
00:32:28.227 --> 00:32:29.430
out of pocket,
640
00:32:29.430 --> 00:32:32.650
it was your personal money you were spending on this?
641
00:32:32.650 --> 00:32:33.483
Yes.
642
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.020
And who was the ringleader?
643
00:32:39.020 --> 00:32:39.853
I mean, somebody has to
644
00:32:39.853 --> 00:32:41.280
I mean that's interesting
645
00:32:47.490 --> 00:32:49.450
I'm gonna say that if grant either came
646
00:32:49.450 --> 00:32:50.810
from the Funding Exchange
647
00:32:50.810 --> 00:32:53.433
or it came from Funds for Southern Communities.
648
00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:57.170
When we got our first grant,
649
00:32:57.170 --> 00:33:02.133
we brought on Pam McMichael and Pat Hussain as co directors,
650
00:33:03.460 --> 00:33:06.550
Pat being here in Atlanta,
651
00:33:06.550 --> 00:33:09.573
Pam being in Louisville, Kentucky.
652
00:33:10.980 --> 00:33:15.352
And they sort of organized everything
653
00:33:15.352 --> 00:33:18.920
and then the rest of us were the founding board members
654
00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:22.043
and they were also board members but they were also staff.
655
00:33:23.520 --> 00:33:24.900
So they did the nitty gritty work
656
00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:26.038
of filing for incorporation and stuff.
657
00:33:26.038 --> 00:33:28.763
Yes, yes.
658
00:33:31.930 --> 00:33:33.880
We have not got those interviews yet.
659
00:33:34.791 --> 00:33:35.624
Oh, okay.
660
00:33:35.624 --> 00:33:37.730
I'm having trouble getting in touch with Pam
661
00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:40.383
and she may be out of the office this week or something.
662
00:33:41.260 --> 00:33:45.350
And Pat with Lorraine Fontana lives in Atlanta
663
00:33:45.350 --> 00:33:47.070
Oh yes, I know Lorraine
664
00:33:47.070 --> 00:33:50.203
She sees Pat a good bit and is planning to.
665
00:33:51.120 --> 00:33:53.290
She was just recently interviewed by this
666
00:33:55.070 --> 00:33:57.040
what's it called Touching Up Our Roots?
667
00:33:57.040 --> 00:33:58.310
Oh okay.
668
00:33:58.310 --> 00:33:59.390
It's a gay project.
669
00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:00.710
So we were just gonna
670
00:34:02.630 --> 00:34:04.670
I have sent some money to that group
671
00:34:04.670 --> 00:34:06.370
and asked to have a copy and permission
672
00:34:06.370 --> 00:34:08.190
to excerpt from those interviews.
673
00:34:08.190 --> 00:34:10.430
But I really wanna hear her story of SONG
674
00:34:10.430 --> 00:34:12.980
especially since she and Pam were the ones who
675
00:34:12.980 --> 00:34:15.517
you know the ones on the ground.
676
00:34:15.517 --> 00:34:17.850
Yes, they were, they were.
677
00:34:21.600 --> 00:34:22.810
So everybody else,
678
00:34:22.810 --> 00:34:25.790
Did Pam and Pat become full time on SONG
679
00:34:25.790 --> 00:34:26.695
or was this just?
680
00:34:26.695 --> 00:34:31.150
They did, yes they did, they did.
681
00:34:31.150 --> 00:34:33.920
And so the rest of you were still with your regular jobs?
682
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:34.815
Yes.
683
00:34:34.815 --> 00:34:35.648
With SONG as a board.
684
00:34:35.648 --> 00:34:36.710
Our regular jobs and we were a board
685
00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:38.213
we were the founding board.
686
00:34:41.310 --> 00:34:42.950
And we would meet be either here in Atlanta
687
00:34:42.950 --> 00:34:45.180
or we would meet in North Carolina
688
00:34:45.180 --> 00:34:47.363
well we went to Louisville a couple times.
689
00:34:48.930 --> 00:34:51.500
And then I think I'm trying to remember when
690
00:34:51.500 --> 00:34:56.500
because when Pat was no longer able to fulfill that role,
691
00:34:59.030 --> 00:35:01.973
Mandy Carter came on as director.
692
00:35:03.980 --> 00:35:07.020
And then we had a number of folks who joined the staff
693
00:35:07.020 --> 00:35:09.010
because by then we were starting to receive funding
694
00:35:09.010 --> 00:35:10.453
from a number of places.
695
00:35:12.543 --> 00:35:14.340
We were able to, you know,
696
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:18.983
create staff and, you know, get the work going.
697
00:35:22.700 --> 00:35:24.203
It's a very young staff now,
698
00:35:24.203 --> 00:35:26.343
I was looking at the website.
699
00:35:27.200 --> 00:35:30.330
I think Suzanne said she's the only one over,
700
00:35:30.330 --> 00:35:32.211
she's working half time for SONG now.
701
00:35:32.211 --> 00:35:33.330
Oh, okay.
702
00:35:33.330 --> 00:35:35.047
And she she's the oldest person
703
00:35:35.047 --> 00:35:36.880
and the next eldest is 40.
704
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:39.373
And then everybody else is under 40.
705
00:35:41.410 --> 00:35:43.160
Yeah, you know, for a long time,
706
00:35:43.160 --> 00:35:48.050
we would have discussions about opening it up to men.
707
00:35:48.050 --> 00:35:50.100
And for the first couple of years,
708
00:35:50.100 --> 00:35:54.670
we were adamant whenever we brought that topic up,
709
00:35:54.670 --> 00:35:57.110
we were all ended up at very adamant,
710
00:35:57.110 --> 00:35:59.213
no, we did not want men at this point.
711
00:36:03.290 --> 00:36:05.536
Because we felt that we had more work to do,
712
00:36:05.536 --> 00:36:08.433
in establishing it as an organization.
713
00:36:12.690 --> 00:36:13.523
Well, that's interesting,
714
00:36:13.523 --> 00:36:15.770
because that's also very true of,
715
00:36:15.770 --> 00:36:18.903
you know, most women's organizations,
716
00:36:18.903 --> 00:36:20.660
and I guess now and even
717
00:36:20.660 --> 00:36:23.912
the American Association of University Women admits men now.
718
00:36:23.912 --> 00:36:26.908
But in those days that was
719
00:36:26.908 --> 00:36:28.210
I think and you know, SONG does too
720
00:36:28.210 --> 00:36:31.262
but you know, at first, it was just a little touchy for us.
721
00:36:31.262 --> 00:36:34.740
You know, it's like, you know, we're just not there yet.
722
00:36:34.740 --> 00:36:36.330
We still have some work to do
723
00:36:36.330 --> 00:36:38.560
in building the foundation of this group.
724
00:36:38.560 --> 00:36:40.350
And we really want to make sure
725
00:36:40.350 --> 00:36:42.480
that we have a solid foundation,
726
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:45.380
which meant that because, you know,
727
00:36:45.380 --> 00:36:47.670
we were getting to know each other
728
00:36:47.670 --> 00:36:49.560
because we knew of each other,
729
00:36:49.560 --> 00:36:51.940
but we didn't really know each other.
730
00:36:51.940 --> 00:36:55.320
We had to build the bonds of trust.
731
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:58.580
And we had to learn each other.
732
00:36:58.580 --> 00:37:00.240
And, you know, make sure
733
00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:04.480
that the organization was not just dependent on one person
734
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:06.303
or one personality,
735
00:37:07.230 --> 00:37:11.120
that it was about all of us
736
00:37:11.120 --> 00:37:13.810
and our collective wisdom,
737
00:37:13.810 --> 00:37:16.750
which is when you ask the question who ran things,
738
00:37:16.750 --> 00:37:18.270
you know, who was the ringleader?
739
00:37:18.270 --> 00:37:21.703
There really was no ringleader per se.
740
00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:24.563
We all had a role.
741
00:37:25.600 --> 00:37:28.113
And it was a collective role.
742
00:37:29.300 --> 00:37:33.180
Even though we knew that we had to designate
743
00:37:34.540 --> 00:37:37.743
you know, some key people to run the organization.
744
00:37:40.656 --> 00:37:43.600
And we wanted to make sure that our dynamics
745
00:37:43.600 --> 00:37:45.853
could be sustainable.
746
00:37:46.830 --> 00:37:48.623
Before we opened it up,
747
00:37:50.122 --> 00:37:53.900
to the others to come in.
748
00:37:53.900 --> 00:37:56.497
That's a good point.
749
00:37:56.497 --> 00:37:59.650
Who of those other five women did you know the best?
750
00:37:59.650 --> 00:38:00.483
you said that you
751
00:38:00.483 --> 00:38:01.630
I knew Pat Hussain
752
00:38:01.630 --> 00:38:04.680
because we worked in the same community here.
753
00:38:04.680 --> 00:38:06.443
So I knew Pat Hussain.
754
00:38:07.410 --> 00:38:10.510
I didn't know Pam McMichael at all.
755
00:38:10.510 --> 00:38:12.250
She was new to me.
756
00:38:12.250 --> 00:38:14.900
I had heard of Suzanne Pharr,
757
00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:17.850
but hadn't really met Suzanne.
758
00:38:17.850 --> 00:38:20.620
I knew Mab a little
759
00:38:20.620 --> 00:38:22.580
because her partner Barbara
760
00:38:22.580 --> 00:38:26.140
was on the board of the Fund for Southern Communities.
761
00:38:26.140 --> 00:38:29.990
So I knew Mab but I didn't know her well.
762
00:38:29.990 --> 00:38:33.630
And I knew of Mandy and had met Mandy
763
00:38:33.630 --> 00:38:36.410
because we funded a group that Mandy was part of as well.
764
00:38:36.410 --> 00:38:39.440
So I knew, you know, Mandy and Mab
765
00:38:41.062 --> 00:38:43.880
through the work of the Fund for Southern Communities
766
00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:46.175
but I knew Pat because of our work here
767
00:38:46.175 --> 00:38:49.190
in the Atlanta community, you know,
768
00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:51.560
being one of several outblacks,
769
00:38:51.560 --> 00:38:54.710
as we called ourselves outblack radical blacks at the time
770
00:38:56.459 --> 00:38:59.810
and I knew of Suzanne because of her work
771
00:38:59.810 --> 00:39:00.733
and her writing.
772
00:39:05.540 --> 00:39:07.175
I think that's really interesting
773
00:39:07.175 --> 00:39:10.720
that you all came together
774
00:39:10.720 --> 00:39:13.293
you found each other and then it worked so well.
775
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:16.190
So many organizations you know,
776
00:39:16.190 --> 00:39:17.120
you had these good ideas
777
00:39:17.120 --> 00:39:19.570
and it just you know,
778
00:39:19.570 --> 00:39:22.190
it doesn't survive the initial enthusiasm.
779
00:39:22.190 --> 00:39:23.713
Exactly, exactly.
780
00:39:24.680 --> 00:39:27.690
And how would you account for that
781
00:39:27.690 --> 00:39:31.370
that SONG did survive the initial enthusiasm
782
00:39:31.370 --> 00:39:33.676
and did live on to pay
783
00:39:33.676 --> 00:39:35.200
I think that you know,
784
00:39:35.200 --> 00:39:37.543
when I look at the women that,
785
00:39:39.340 --> 00:39:41.040
I was just so in awe of them
786
00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:42.830
because of the work that they had had
787
00:39:42.830 --> 00:39:45.220
and this is a serious group of women.
788
00:39:45.220 --> 00:39:48.023
I thought I brought some you know, comic relief.
789
00:39:49.160 --> 00:39:51.100
From a different perspective.
790
00:39:51.100 --> 00:39:55.940
my commitment was just as strong.
791
00:39:55.940 --> 00:40:00.940
but I didn't have the activist experience
792
00:40:01.490 --> 00:40:02.760
that they had
793
00:40:03.750 --> 00:40:08.150
And so I think, you know, on an individual level,
794
00:40:08.150 --> 00:40:11.250
each of us brought a certain level of commitment
795
00:40:11.250 --> 00:40:12.333
to this work.
796
00:40:13.977 --> 00:40:18.977
And, we're very serious about making sure
797
00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:24.720
that whatever our vision was
798
00:40:24.720 --> 00:40:27.810
for how we want to be in society,
799
00:40:27.810 --> 00:40:30.520
we've had to demonstrate that in our work.
800
00:40:30.520 --> 00:40:33.750
So when things got tight or hard,
801
00:40:33.750 --> 00:40:37.793
we took time out, to really get wisdom.
802
00:40:41.170 --> 00:40:42.890
That was very important.
803
00:40:42.890 --> 00:40:47.070
And to really understand, you know, what was happening
804
00:40:47.070 --> 00:40:49.940
to a person or where a person was coming from.
805
00:40:49.940 --> 00:40:51.670
Hello,
I'm here, I'm still here.
806
00:40:51.670 --> 00:40:53.930
Oh, okay,
I'm just nodding my head.
807
00:40:53.930 --> 00:40:56.210
Okay, no, I think that was my cell vibration
808
00:40:56.210 --> 00:40:57.043
but that's okay.
809
00:40:58.517 --> 00:41:02.090
So I think it was the commitment
810
00:41:02.090 --> 00:41:03.940
that each of us brought to this work
811
00:41:03.940 --> 00:41:05.980
to make sure that you know,
812
00:41:05.980 --> 00:41:10.573
we want this to withstand the test of time.
813
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:13.710
And that if we run
814
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.650
up against issues,
815
00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:19.630
we are committed to staying in it
816
00:41:19.630 --> 00:41:21.537
to work through those issues.
817
00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:30.350
I wonder also this has been the last question I think,
818
00:41:30.350 --> 00:41:31.253
unless there's something you thought of.
819
00:41:31.253 --> 00:41:34.788
Have you thought of anything that you needed to say?
820
00:41:34.788 --> 00:41:35.830
No, no. This is good.
821
00:41:38.180 --> 00:41:39.810
I've been trying to sort of,
822
00:41:39.810 --> 00:41:41.140
I'm seeing this chapter,
823
00:41:41.140 --> 00:41:43.060
the SONG chapter is the last chapter
824
00:41:43.060 --> 00:41:44.840
of the Sister Wisdom issue.
825
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:46.430
We're gonna start with Gainesville
826
00:41:46.430 --> 00:41:50.663
because there was a lot of early stuff in Gainesville.
827
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:56.620
Byllye Avery she was a co founder
828
00:41:56.620 --> 00:41:58.290
of the Gainesville Women's Health Center.
829
00:41:58.290 --> 00:42:00.180
There was just a whole lot going on there.
830
00:42:00.180 --> 00:42:01.900
So we're starting with Gainesville.
831
00:42:01.900 --> 00:42:03.653
And we wanna end with SONG,
832
00:42:04.592 --> 00:42:08.250
and that's 68 is when we begin and 94 is when we end.
833
00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:09.617
So SONG is 93.
834
00:42:09.617 --> 00:42:13.773
And I guess it's 93 is when the Creating Change was
835
00:42:13.773 --> 00:42:16.023
and then that started then.
836
00:42:17.049 --> 00:42:17.882
And I'm looking at,
837
00:42:17.882 --> 00:42:19.430
I'm trying to get a sense of
838
00:42:22.110 --> 00:42:24.350
I see SONG as a new beginning,
839
00:42:24.350 --> 00:42:27.173
that a lot of things had run their course.
840
00:42:28.109 --> 00:42:32.850
A lot of, you know, revolutionary ideas and separatism
841
00:42:32.850 --> 00:42:35.800
and a lot of people had burned out
842
00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:38.290
and moved on to other things.
843
00:42:38.290 --> 00:42:41.983
And SONG was like a breath of fresh air in a way.
844
00:42:42.970 --> 00:42:44.023
What do you think?
845
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.380
You all came to it from different places,
846
00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:51.060
activism and social justice,
847
00:42:51.060 --> 00:42:53.590
but you came to it with different histories
848
00:42:53.590 --> 00:42:56.663
for you why was SONG the right thing at the right time?
849
00:42:57.760 --> 00:42:59.663
Where was it historically for you?
850
00:43:00.870 --> 00:43:01.853
How did it fit?
851
00:43:03.720 --> 00:43:05.810
Where was it historically for me?
852
00:43:05.810 --> 00:43:07.810
Yeah. Why was it the thing to do then?
853
00:43:09.790 --> 00:43:12.353
You know, well for me,
854
00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:19.020
I think because there was so much that I saw
855
00:43:19.020 --> 00:43:22.463
that was unfinished with the civil rights movement.
856
00:43:24.660 --> 00:43:26.520
Like I said, I wasn't that
857
00:43:26.520 --> 00:43:29.360
actively engaged in the feminist movement,
858
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:31.360
but there were all of these movements
859
00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:33.580
that were still working.
860
00:43:33.580 --> 00:43:36.480
And it's like, okay, so where are we?
861
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.280
Where are we, in terms of,
862
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:41.103
I saw them as separate movement.
863
00:43:42.050 --> 00:43:44.490
And so I think, for me,
864
00:43:44.490 --> 00:43:47.600
it was how do we make a connection here?
865
00:43:47.600 --> 00:43:50.260
Because again, I had to go back to myself.
866
00:43:50.260 --> 00:43:53.870
It's like, when I walk into a room,
867
00:43:53.870 --> 00:43:54.703
I tell you what
868
00:43:54.703 --> 00:43:59.307
it was that question that would come up sometimes,
869
00:44:01.430 --> 00:44:02.720
are you first a lesbian?
870
00:44:02.720 --> 00:44:04.563
Or are you first African American?
871
00:44:05.860 --> 00:44:07.837
If I'm sitting in a room.
872
00:44:07.837 --> 00:44:09.970
And I would say, what do you mean
873
00:44:09.970 --> 00:44:12.850
am I first African American or first lesbian?
874
00:44:12.850 --> 00:44:16.083
I am an African American woman, lesbian.
875
00:44:17.358 --> 00:44:19.740
That's the total of me.
876
00:44:19.740 --> 00:44:22.200
I can't separate myself.
877
00:44:22.200 --> 00:44:24.660
And so for me, I think you know,
878
00:44:24.660 --> 00:44:27.310
for me, it was alright, so if we're gonna do something,
879
00:44:27.310 --> 00:44:30.460
it can't be business as usual.
880
00:44:30.460 --> 00:44:33.340
We have to continue to move this forward.
881
00:44:33.340 --> 00:44:34.860
And so how we make the connection
882
00:44:34.860 --> 00:44:38.000
so if I'm gonna go in a room and say,
883
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.950
I'm here as an African American first,
884
00:44:40.950 --> 00:44:43.073
or I'm here as a lesbian first.
885
00:44:44.600 --> 00:44:47.253
The total of me is in this room,
886
00:44:48.590 --> 00:44:50.940
dealing with all of the issues
887
00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:53.383
that I have to deal with as a person.
888
00:44:55.410 --> 00:44:58.090
And so, you know, for me,
889
00:44:58.090 --> 00:44:59.860
it was if we're going to do this,
890
00:44:59.860 --> 00:45:01.860
we've gotta to be about making sure
891
00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:05.183
that we stay in the future and moving this forward.
892
00:45:07.200 --> 00:45:08.520
Without the separation,
893
00:45:08.520 --> 00:45:11.923
we can no longer can continue to separate ourselves.
894
00:45:13.030 --> 00:45:15.600
Because there is a connection.
895
00:45:15.600 --> 00:45:16.433
That's good,
896
00:45:16.433 --> 00:45:18.767
we can no longer can continue to separate ourselves.
897
00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:23.830
Well, this is very good.
898
00:45:23.830 --> 00:45:27.030
I think I'm gonna be able to use a lot of this.
899
00:45:27.030 --> 00:45:30.034
I'm gonna type my notes.
900
00:45:30.034 --> 00:45:33.230
And I'll listen to the interview so that I can correct
901
00:45:33.230 --> 00:45:35.595
where I didn't transcribe it right.
902
00:45:35.595 --> 00:45:36.428
Yes, yes, yes.
903
00:45:37.348 --> 00:45:39.500
And then what I'll do is email you those.
904
00:45:39.500 --> 00:45:41.750
And if you need me to I could,
905
00:45:41.750 --> 00:45:44.410
I could just go ahead and snail mail at the same time,
906
00:45:44.410 --> 00:45:47.310
the email will give you an electronic copy
907
00:45:47.310 --> 00:45:49.919
in case you want to get in there and write things.
908
00:45:49.919 --> 00:45:50.752
Sure, sure.
909
00:45:50.752 --> 00:45:52.250
But you don't have to write anything.
910
00:45:52.250 --> 00:45:54.090
You just have to correct anything I get wrong.
911
00:45:54.090 --> 00:45:55.790
Okay, sure.
912
00:45:55.790 --> 00:45:57.980
And I'm hoping to do this quickly.
913
00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:00.000
But I've got another set of interviews coming up
914
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:03.391
and it helps if I do it right away.
915
00:46:03.391 --> 00:46:06.683
So I might get it turned around very fast.
916
00:46:08.130 --> 00:46:10.940
But you will be hearing from me.
917
00:46:10.940 --> 00:46:14.120
Okay, well thank you.
918
00:46:14.120 --> 00:46:15.853
I've enjoyed talking about it.
919
00:46:15.853 --> 00:46:18.303
Well good, I've enjoyed listening to you
920
00:46:18.303 --> 00:46:22.270
it's very different from the other interviews
921
00:46:22.270 --> 00:46:23.500
I've done Suzanne and Mandy,
922
00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:26.230
I've talked with Suzanne and Mandy so far.
923
00:46:26.230 --> 00:46:28.540
And it's completely different stories
924
00:46:30.950 --> 00:46:33.104
not difference in opinion
925
00:46:33.104 --> 00:46:35.830
I hope that our recollection
926
00:46:35.830 --> 00:46:38.000
of how we came together is similar
927
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:39.906
but yeah, completely different stories.
928
00:46:39.906 --> 00:46:42.850
Yeah, there's no contradiction.
929
00:46:42.850 --> 00:46:46.557
It's just interesting how the puzzle pieces fit together.
930
00:46:46.557 --> 00:46:48.920
Very very interesting.
931
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:50.490
Great. Well, I look forward to seeing it
932
00:46:50.490 --> 00:46:52.739
and thank you so much for doing this work.
933
00:46:52.739 --> 00:46:53.572
Sure I love doing this work.
934
00:46:55.030 --> 00:46:56.626
It's really great.
935
00:46:56.626 --> 00:46:57.459
Alright
936
00:46:58.552 --> 00:47:00.710
Alright well have a good weekend
937
00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:03.287
I appreciate the interview
You too.