Roosevelt Cuffie interview recording, 1994 June 29
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| Tunga White | Mr. Cuffie, before I begin my questions about your life, can you tell me, do you remember your grandparents? | 0:00 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I remember my grandmother. I never had a chance to know my grandfather in life. Her name was Ella Harvey, and she passed away in Detroit, Michigan. That was the mother. My grandmother was the mother of my mother, on my mother's side. | 0:12 |
| Tunga White | Did you know your paternal grandparents on your father's side? | 0:46 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I knew they talked about them, sure, but they had passed. His name was Mason Cuffie. | 0:46 |
| Tunga White | Do you know where they lived? Your grandparents on either side, lived? | 1:01 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. They lived in the sixteenth district of Worth County. And they had a plantation there, and it's still—the chain has been from [indistinct 00:01:33] to a cooperation. It's the Cuffie Cooperation now. | 1:23 |
| Tunga White | And on your grandmother, Mrs. Harvey, where was she? Would she live in Detroit all her life? | 1:37 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Not all of her life. She was originally from, I think, Still County. I'm not for sure, but I think it was around that way somewhere. And then she lived quite a few of her years in Worth County, and later she went to Detroit with one of her daughters. Stayed there for quite a few years. | 1:58 |
| Tunga White | So she spent her childhood and the majority of her adult life here in Georgia? | 2:16 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | In Georgia. | 2:16 |
| Tunga White | Can you tell me about your family? How many brothers and sisters do you have? | 2:16 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I have six brothers and four sisters. Five are living, and five are dead. Two sisters passed away and three brothers. | 2:16 |
| Tunga White | What did your parents do for a living? | 2:16 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | There was basic farming. They cleared up land, and bought it. So that was back in the 1800s, last part of the 1800s. And at that time there was quite a few Cuffies, and they named the settlement Cuffie Town, which is on the map, now, of Worth County. | 3:07 |
| Tunga White | Now were is Cuffie Town? | 3:48 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Cuffie Town is in Worth County sixteenth district, about fourteen miles east of Sylvester on the 33rd highway going to Cordele. Our land, that highway is our land line. | 3:49 |
| Tunga White | Would you say that this land has been in your family for generations? | 4:30 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | For generations since 1900, somewhere like that. | 4:31 |
| Tunga White | Do you know how the land—who originally got the land and how it's been worked? | 4:31 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I would say the original was Mason Cuffie, and he had, to my knowledge, about six sons and two daughters. And somewhere along the line there was many of his sons and daughters had opportunity to purchase it, but it was in debt to the [indistinct 00:05:19] Evan's land bank. And whoever paid out or paid so much on the land got according to what they paid in regards of equity. So my father, Boston Cuffie, paid more than two-thirds of the land. Those that didn't stay there and didn't desire to had moved away or no long cared to farm. But it was free for whoever wanted to pay, and they got according to what they paid. So my father, Boston Cuffie, bought and paid for the land that is now the Cuffie Cooperation. | 4:37 |
| Tunga White | Do you know exactly how many acres? | 6:09 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Now, at that time there was more than 300 acres, so there was two different lots. And present, it's 180 acres. | 6:18 |
| Tunga White | You said your father's brothers and sisters didn't seem interested in purchasing the land and did some of them move? | 6:47 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I said my grandfather's children. They didn't—all of them [indistinct 00:07:04] that was on the street. One boy, which is my father, Boston Cuffie, two daughters was Daisy Bradly and Hettie Hammer, they purchased about what we would call then one acre land. I mean one horse farm. Back then you call it one horse farm which was approximately thirty to thirty-five acres, and one of them had enough for that. Then the other, my father give them a part of his land. Just gave it to them so they would have enough to have a one horse farm.At that time the farming was done by mule, and if you had a one horse farm, that's what the amount of acres one mule could tend, would be about 30 acres. | 6:56 |
| Tunga White | Where did the other brothers move to [indistinct 00:08:28]— | 8:10 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Some of my father's brothers was, most of them was in Florida. Okay. And St. Petersburg, there was two there. And some, I'm not for sure where they went because they was passed. But I chanced to see the oldest brother. One was Mansfield Cuffie, another was Charlie Cuffie, another was Red Cuffie. I chanced to talk with them. And on my mother's side, she had one brother and one sister. | 8:27 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | The son, my uncle, his name on my mother's side was Charlie Pace. And his sister, which is my aunt, lived in—Charlie Pace lived in Terry, Florida. My uncle and my aunt, whom I have chanced to visit several times, and just before she passed in Detroit, Michigan. Her name was Sally McKenzie. | 9:19 |
| Tunga White | And the family farm, what kind of crops were planted? | 9:50 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well, let's say in the 1930s. I can remember that. Your major crop was corn, peanuts, cotton, and tobacco. Those the major things that you would plant yearly. I would say secondary, watermelon, wheat, and there were beans. Of course, she had the garden, stuff like that, but those are the primary things that were planted. | 11:03 |
| Tunga White | The major crops would be corn, peanuts, cotton, and tobacco. [phone ringing] Which crop had the most acres out of those four major crops? | 11:05 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | At that time it was first planting for allotment. If it was in allotment, it was on tobacco, but that was on allotment. The rest of the crop you planted according to your judgment. For instance, that you wanted to put as many acres as you wanted of your farm in corn. There wasn't a limit to it. But the most progress or beneficial was cotton and peanut. So corn was a thing, a must to feed the livestock such as your mule and your hogs. | 11:27 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But basically it was not controlled as it is today, or restricted as it is today. And I think that is because of many small farmers have to get out of it because of such a demand for the crop to be planted different ways in such short time. And the base of price did not afford enough unless you had five or 600 acres because the machinery now would cost fifteen times as much as it cost back then. In fact, the whole system has changed. Practically everything. In the '30s, you did it with your hands or some type of handmade tool but now—and it's taken quite a bit of work from—as to the manual labor, but now it's been replaced by machinery to the extent that you can plant and gather your crop without having to do much labor, physically. | 12:17 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | In fact, you could wear now and gather you crop what people wore to church in the '30s, and gather your crop. In other words, one man can work the equipment, now could do as much as twenty persons could do. So you see the difference that is. With the right machine and one man could pick more cotton today than let's say a 100 people. Right? And that has caused a great—don't base everything on that scale, but basically the time you spend on the farm now with the machinery, if you spend two hours with machinery that would be equivalent of twenty men, eight hours, that you could do. | 13:47 |
| Tunga White | Were any other areas only Black families lived in the area? Do you remember any? | 14:58 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | At that time there was a fellow by the name Clyde, I believe that was the last of the names, and quite a few families, but I'm not sure of the name. But most of them the land got taken by some trick. And what I mean by that, I was told by my father, and whom was a very religious man, and not only by him but it was known by White and Black. I've taught with how the land where many Black was taken for nothing. And the things that I can truly say, he told me of those true stolen, about how the land would be taken. | 15:07 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | That was such thing as quick claim deed. And if some of the Whites would have them made up and take them to the courthouse. But before that, they would find out what district and what land lot it was and get those quick claim needs and put them in stoves and brown them, make them look like they've had them for a long time. That was like they had purchased the deeds from the real landowner and by ways of mean they would get that land for little or nothing. | 16:08 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And right now you may be wondering why we maintained ours and it didn't happen. Well, so it was about to happen and I value right and truth, and we found that in all—I have found that in all nationalities of people. I think basically it has a lot to do with who you are. I teach the preacher. So my father was fortunate enough to have a White friend and he told him what was about to happen to his land and these people had did several Black people that way. So what my daddy did was had his land put in our property and he put three of his niece on that.And this is the way he preserved it. They didn't have anything, the children wasn't quite old enough, all of them. | 17:00 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But he put them on there so that they couldn't legally get a clear title, quick claim deed. So as they was coming in the courthouse in the front, my father, Boston Cuffie, was going out the back. So that's how we know that was truly and it had not been for this, the Cuffie Estate Will, which is now, we have some acreage that is still in the Cuffie Estate. But I say ninety-five percent of it is in the Cuffie cooperation. And for that reason we've been able to maintain it and it will be always and as long as that is a Cuffie blood, it will be there for monumental and whatever reason that we can continue maintain it and develop. | 18:14 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So it was very hard trying to make it through the struggle where you had a precedent that been kept for you to have land or anything. The White man wanted be in control by owning the land where they could work you as, not necessarily slave, but the money paid to you. You could call it slavery, the money that you got. Even at my age, which I'm sixty-eight years old. Back then when I got old enough to work, I can remember working for fifty cents a day. And we not talking about an eight hour shift, we're talking about from sun up to sun down, which would average it out, I think, based around a year, a little better than the time was added to around, I'd say thirteen hours, twelve to thirteen hours. In the summertime you have about, you said fourteen hours. I don't mean sunlight but you would work, be in the field at light. You didn't wait until sun up and they would be that light and it would be dark. So I was thinking this is in June. | 19:26 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And We noted that it's about pretty close to thirteen hours in summer. It be more in daylight more or less close to fourteen hours that we'd be right there. So that way I look at it as I've applied to struggle to overcome my suppression and many hardship, but I have to give the credit to God most then some of it to my parents because it was true in my thought, had integrity enough to work and make an honest dollar so that we could advance and not have to go through the things that they did. because it was very hard. | 21:09 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | We managed, and I give them credit to this today, they was able to tell us when we would go off and wait for the White man, if there's anything was too rough, not to be wrong but we know the way home and to me what this was saying that we were take care of. So not bragging by no means, but I can be thankful that we didn't have to go through what some of the things that Blacks that didn't have a farm and didn't have a good town. To be fortunate enough to have a home or their own where they could build on. | 22:18 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And even today my heart goes out to them because and as much as it is them, it's also me today. And I desire that we have more unity among all brothers, races. But most so for this reason among the Black because Lord have brought us from a long ways and we know that pressure is something very hard to deal with. | 23:11 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | The White man know this today and as I talk now, and as I remember them when it got so up to many of the small farmers, White farmers I'm speaking about, hasn't been twenty years ago when they could not go to the bank and get the farms that they run the crop on. Many of them committed suicide. | 23:48 |
| Tunga White | And when was this? | 24:23 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I say this was around the early part of seven and I've talked with some of them personal. I'm still talking with some of them today that let our farm and other farms so that the government, if they don't make a way, something, they thinking about suicide. What struggle that they're going through with. I don't wish any grief on them but I think if that story was known, then I believe the hearts and the minds of leadership, whether they are White or Black would understand how far the Black man have come under the conditions and would not blame him for if we call it ignorant. | 24:24 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I don't call it ignorant, I call it not experienced, not having the privilege. But when I look back over it, I said that I don't feel some other nation could have, or would have, accomplished what we have the way we have under the conditions because our true identity was not recognized, it was not taught in the schools. | 25:23 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And my thought, I would like to say this, which is not critical in our colleges, our schools, because the White man designed that and it's time for a change. This statement is that experience wrote the book and it doesn't become a fact that you can base anything on that has true value, unless it has been experienced. And when anyone comes to the reality of experience, that's something that you do. And that credit was taken from the Black man. But when I look back, the Black man was the one that invented, I would say in my opinion, over seventy-five percent of our equipment, for he was under pressure to make a change so he wouldn't have to work so hard. | 26:03 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But when he invented, not having the money, not having the education, we were deprived of our privilege to bring it to attention that we was the reason. If you use the word creator of this, if you would use the term invention, you would find it that the Black man was the one did it by experience. | 27:29 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | It stands out greatly my life that I come to think of a professor who, from physics, to war cause, to even life in general today, so many things out of [indistinct 00:28:27] and so was told and who stole, that he was offered much money to give his farmer all various things. And I can really understand the reason he did when he looked back over the history, the Black man didn't get what he'd do. And he was, it's in my knowledge that he said that he wouldn't put it on paper so it could be stolen away. But he had it in his head and the 300 and more plus things that he made from the peanut, each one had a farmer and that tells us that we wasn't and we are not a dumb race. We never have been, but the privilege has not been there. So experience didn't write the book in many case because we didn't have that experience of education, we didn't have that experience of having money to do it. | 28:10 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But look, let's look at today to verify this. We said we'll come a long ways and I said yes and yet we have a long ways to go. But if it was to be tested or equal, when I say equal, I mean a great change would have to be made and the Black man wouldn't have to ask any White man for anything. | 29:41 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | If you put him out there on a team with not only the White or let's say Caucasian or any other race, I feel that he wouldn't be bringing up the rear. I think he would be leading the pack and ninety percent or whatever it would be. It has been proven that we can excel. We have the ability. Even being oppressed, we have came through by the grace of God and what we endeavor to accomplish. And I look forward to seeing a brighter light. I know that by much darkness yet to the Black, to the White and to the world and the [indistinct 00:31:07] of truth or the bibles of the truth makes you free. We're not free and the White man is not free. I realize that and that was a great consolation to me.Reason we're not free, we are fearful of what the Blacks can do and what others can do. So he have a problem with his own self. But in my thought, we need unity because it is enough of God provision for all man and all man. | 30:10 |
| Tunga White | You see a lot [indistinct 00:31:44] in the Black community. Did you tell me that? | 31:44 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Let's say yes in many ways, let's say no in many ways. As I've stated, experience wrote the book. We were deprived of getting together, many times we desire to. So that was not our fault. But as I stated, I'm sixty-eight years old and fortunately I was able to be one of the few that I had a chance to continue in school. But listen, most of the Blacks, when they got eight and ten years of age, they had to, when school opened after car, the farm, which was the major trade and the rule. And the town didn't have many industries to work at, they would have to gather their crop or start it off. So they only, most of them didn't go three fourths of the term, about half of the school term. So this was a breakdown in communication. I use the word communication because if you don't have the education, you cannot communicate to the necessity. So that's what we was lacking as you— | 31:52 |
| Tunga White | Do you think that the majority of the school age children and just Black kids missed out most of the school year or the minority? [indistinct 00:33:46] most of them did. | 33:45 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Most of them, especially if they was boys. The girls got a chance to be at school [indistinct 00:33:58] more than the boys because the boys could plow the mule and they would be [indistinct 00:34:06] before the girls had to stay out to help gather the crop. They would be there after be done planted and the crop go up and then it would need hoeing. That could be done with less time. So they had a chance to stay in more. | 33:54 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Another thing that was very touching, even the schools at that time wasn't adequate. The Black children and the Black teacher, they got the secondhand books which the White had used. And sometime it wasn't up to date. Not only that, when anything is not on the plus side, then you have pressure. So this pressure started, I say greatly like this. Most of the rural was [indistinct 00:35:21] and the children, all Black back in the '30s, early '30s, had to walk to school and the Whites would ride by them in a bus they rode to school. And segregated schools. That time we didn't have the proper equipment such as typewriters, instruments. So this foot, it were put in a race behind,Not that you look down on yourself with pity, but it's a stigma that you know that you wasn't recognized as a first class of a human being. So this had to be, even now, psychologically, a defect that is a strike against you. And yet, a lot of us have overcome to an extent, to look over that. But when you sum it all up from back there to now, it is effective. | 34:35 |
| Tunga White | You're talking about the inferior quality, like the inferior books, lack of things in Black school. What about the building, the school itself, how inferior quality was the building, things like that? | 37:01 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well I'd say I was about ten years old when I can relate to some of the conditions. In the Black school, there were very few schools as a place to go and get education for the Blacks. The places that you had to go was in homes, but mostly in churches. And in those churches, it was inadequate for school. You had one heater, this was the majority of the stick house where they had school at. And some of the places, it would be couple hours before you could be comfortable or maybe many days if it was cold you was never comfortable because just only so many could get around a small heater. | 37:17 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And the quality of teachers, you did not get what was required in regards of your education, to the extent that they was qualified to do an adequate job in the same as it would have if you were White. What I'm saying then if you had sixth grade education, you would be more likely qualified to teach in the Black school. But in the White, they was higher educated, they had special classrooms. For all our classes, we didn't have any. All classes had to be taught openly. | 38:36 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And for that reason it was, I don't understand how we came and got the education that we did get under those conditions. One teacher would sometimes have as many as sixty and more, maybe a hundred students to teach them. And it would range from the first grade, what we call the primer, through the sixth grade. That was by the highest you would, they weren't in the room. And sometimes if you had a teacher that could teach the seventh grade, had been through seventh grade, then you wouldn't have to go off to just a few of schools that was open to Black. So that's where we lack. | 39:43 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And the question that she put to me was we unified, so to speak, did we have a understanding of unity? Yes, we did. And this way if somebody got sick, it wasn't no expense. The community would go down and do for them what they would do for themselves with. No charge. So I said that was a great unity. And [indistinct 00:41:39] was the main person of the house got sick and the farm declined, they would pull together one day or how long it takes and plow on his farm. Then at other times it would be the same way. | 40:57 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Okay, back then you grow probably everything you use, except the clothing. And a lot of that was made from the mothers and daughters because the fertilizer sack, they made a lot of the clothes out of that. And yes, they would come together at hard times to reuse the work, then kill the hog or whatever the meat was. Your next door neighbor, that meaning the people living next door to you, two or three different families would come and help you preserve your meat, your hog killing. And there wasn't any charge because we always give some of what we had to share, whether it was hog or creek, whatever it was. So that was a great deal of unity and everybody in my opinion got along very good. There wasn't a whole lot of misunderstanding. | 41:57 |
| Tunga White | Let me ask you this, Mr. Cuffie. You said that around your family-owned farm, there were other Black farmers and you said that the White could do different techniques to try to take the land. Did the Black farmers, knowing that this was happening and had been happening, try to rally together in some kind of way to prevent this? | 43:14 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well, let me say it this way. Sometimes it's too late when you awaken to what was happening. As I said that, and always there are some part of the people. So by not having Black lawyers, by not having Black people in the office of the courthouse, they didn't know what was taking place. And this White friend told my father what was taking place. I would say like this, yes, if they had known what would happen then they would have prevented this, as my father did. But the problem was, and as like it is today, many things are happening, happened to us that we don't know about. | 43:37 |
| Tunga White | Like for instance, you said your father learned about how to do it, an heir. Heir and [indistinct 00:44:39] | 44:30 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Right. | 44:39 |
| Tunga White | Did he tell any of the other farmers that this could be a way— | 44:39 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Sure. | 44:39 |
| Tunga White | That they could keep their land in the family? | 44:39 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Right. This was told out, but this is what happened, see. Many of them, well we were pretty much like a settlement and they had the news. See you didn't have the news meter like you did now. So something could happen today and you may be six months and not live twenty miles before you know about it. So this is what I'm saying. I don't see how we accomplished, but somehow we did. So, that was a milestone to preserve that land. Sure. | 44:42 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But see that was fear for you to even tell somebody else as a Black man. But all this, we had to do it some way and somehow, but by the time it happened to him and our area, frankly all the land was taken. Okay. So then if you go to another area and tell them, a lot of that happened. Then as I say, you didn't have all low down people that was in charge. But in Worth County, we have several Blacks still have land. So I'm sure this was the way, was one of the ways and means that they could not, they did not take the land. I know the Fowlers still have land in Worth County. I know the, and this is from way back, I know that the Youngs still have land in Worth county and they have a lot of land, different land. So yes, that is unity but a let down of communication can stop you from breath and wherever you are trying to endeavor to do. | 45:30 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I was saying that we said he was mother-whipped. I don't [indistinct 00:00:07] with that. But I think that we all have been blessed with knowledge. It's just having the opportunity to let it be known, to give it a chance to focus and come forth. And this can be deprived. You can be deprived of this, when you're just not calling the shots, so to speak. | 0:00 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But once you get a opportunity where you can feel free, and we'll be it so much not feeling free, even as I speak today. In many ways I know I'm free, because I don't have the fear. But there is a fear, because of others that don't understand that we must pay the price. Because if you're in an environment, and you're getting treated bad, so you have to pay the price, that someday, somehow, we really will be free. | 0:33 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So, I feel you're not free until, as I stated to you about Colin, he let them know that he wouldn't make his feet going in the front door, until his brothers and sisters could go in there. So, what door we are going in, we ought to want everybody to go in that same door. So I say this, yes, I am fearful for the Black. Because not only Black, for the White. Because without unity, we are destroying what we have here that can be a superior nation, United States. But we can destroy our own self. | 1:12 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Much of this is happening today, as I look at it. [indistinct 00:02:03]. And let me reflect on this. It's been too much blame put on the youth. They are not to blame. The system, the town. And I don't mean the just born town. I mean parents, and Him. We have let go, and act as children ourselves. I thank to God that I prayed for Him to give me a family that I could love. And He gave me that. And I can say truly they love me. And I'm thankful they're not taking credit for myself, but thanking God that He supplied my request. | 1:56 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | They're all living. And every Father Day and Mother Day they make their self known. And many more days I could mention them. And this is not patting myself, or any of my family, on the back, but just thanks to God that they listened. And I'm telling people today to listen, not just here, but listen. We've always heard it, but I don't feel that we have really listened. | 3:00 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | When we listen, then it is effective that we will hold what we heard. And then we become concerned about our condition, as I am today. It's not the children's fault, basically. For the Bible says, "If we train up a child in the way he should go, he will not depart from it." So, I'm saying, the way the Black man was trained up, a lot of them that they haven't departed from it. | 3:33 |
| Tunga White | Let me ask you a question. We hear so much these days about Black on Black crime, and violence. Back when you were coming up, was that ever a problem, when you were [indistinct 00:04:32]? | 4:32 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well, to this extent, I'd say not near as much of this today. You had to lose—let's say that you were in the country. And at night there would be something, well, don't be caught over here. I don't want to make you wrong. But that didn't last, or there was nothing really serious about that. You might get a rock thrown at, but that was about the extent of it. | 4:38 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But when you mention the word, "kill," this is what we're having today. And basically, I think it's because we haven't been taught to love. We've got away from that, see? Not only the Black, but White, and all other nature. If somebody just love us, then we can feel that here, to not to become violent. Because love will stand up and speak for us, that we shouldn't do this. We should love this person. | 4:52 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So, I'm saying today that we have, as adults, as leaders, that in different positions, it's not that they are ignorant, but we have acted ignorant, and are ignorant, to let this vast knowledge that we have be used the wrong way. I can go on record, and it has been on record, and regardless of the things that are destroying our people, such as drugs, such as gangs. | 5:28 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And everybody in the office, if they would tell the truth, I'm a strong believer they know what it takes to get rid of the drugs, to get rid of the violence. But, as I said, that fear is the thing that I feel that has prohibited this. They are afraid to pay the price. | 6:16 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I was watching on TV this morning, police had turned in evidence against their own police [indistinct 00:06:56]. But the truth is, the saying that's what's going to count, see? And we just haven't learned that. I mean, Black haven't learned it. White haven't learned it. Other nations haven't learned it. The people from the President on down is ignoring this fact of proof. And I said that to all the previous Presidents. They haven't lived it up to their promise. And they do not face the truth. | 6:45 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And it's because I feel a fear. We know what it is to bring about a change. If the truth just start coming out, but I hate feeling, I tell you I hate you. Well, the truth feels that I hate you, but let's get together now since you know I hate you, or this not going to help you. It's not going to help me to become a hundred percent unity. And we cannot deny this. For their unity, that is spent. So, you and I wants to be strong. So it should be with all concerned. That for cars to move, or in a machine, whatever it possess, it must have unity. | 7:26 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And it's more so with the living who made the car, to have Him. Whether you're Black, White, or what. But there are such a gap in the Caucasian and the Black man. And when I ask myself why, I've come to two major things. First we was told the untruth. As the truth is brought up by the White man today, the majority of them will tell you, if you get the money, if you get the education, then I'm a nobody. That's what it amount to. | 8:16 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And that's it, what I mean a nobody. I cannot control you. So, yeah, there's enough for us all, but I want to be in control. And not being in control, this is what he look at, when we come to genes. And if you take time and listen, or take time and think about it, if there is a Black man and 10 White, whatever, Black is wrong, whether he be a male or a female. | 9:07 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Vice-versa is going to become Black. So, that tell us we are strong. And this is nothing, too, that he should be ashamed of, because whatever race you are, whatever, it's not the race, it's the person that you are. And we have good persons in all races. But there is such thing, I think, as heritage, culture. Yes, we're different from that. | 9:48 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | For an instance, we was taught in our school, that Columbus discovered America. And when we come to face the truth, we know that is a lie. He discovered someplace he had never been. Americas have always been here. And there was Black before him, there was Indians first, to my knowledge. I think that is on record now. | 10:21 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So, we've been brainwashed about a lot of things. But I'm looking, and I'm depending on God's word, that we will all get our just dues. Maybe a lot of people don't realize it, and they've been ignorant. And one thing I can feel proud of saying this, it's no time to be a fool now, as I was tasked to preach. And being a fool that says, what does it profit a man that gain the whole world and lose his soul? | 10:48 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And the thing about the truth that will make you free is this. They have a slogan on TV about cars and whatnot. You can pay me now, or you can pay me later. So, if I don't do right now, I will know about it later. | 11:26 |
| Tunga White | Mr. Coffey, you mentioned fear. When you were born, was White oppression and violence really prominent in your area [indistinct 00:12:01]? | 11:42 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes, that was, double-check it. Like the church I'm attending now, it was a Methodist church. And this was in the twenties, in the early thirties. No. I believe that I was right, in the twenties, because this was before my time. There was an incident happened. And it concerned some of my family and others. But they were trying to find out, and my father was a Mason, my grandfather was a Mason. | 12:18 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And in self-defense it was told that he killed a White man. We are not a family that is afraid to say county, but we don't have a history of violence. We have a history of integrity and love. But if you try it that way today, I'll let you know where I stand. I'll give you room to back off. I'll let you know where I stand. So, the question you ask, yes. They burned down churches. They looked for him, but they did not find him. As I said, there was some good people in all races. | 12:49 |
| Tunga White | Was this, the people who burned down the churches, was this Klan? Or was this just citizens, White citizens in the area, or— | 13:43 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was Klan. They was claiming they'd go with the White sheets, and they were threatening the churches that they didn't burn down. They would burn a cross, the whole of their meeting. And it was very fearful for us. Many of these churches are closed down, or was not built back that they burnt. And the people moved away. | 13:53 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | My church, it is under the name of Davis Gold Baptist Church, that land was given by the same man, Major Cuffing. Mason Cuffing. And it was given, it was a Methodist church there. They had [indistinct 00:14:40] a very nice church, for it to be a Black church, I understand in those days. They had a hall there, a Mason hall, so sure that they was oppressed. And as it is today, many incident that happened, should not have happened. Wasn't any reason. | 14:21 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | For an instance, I tell you a person contact that I had when I was about 14 years of age. There was a White neighbor, who lived, one eye was so good, and one was bad. The one was bad, if you could so call it good, I said, I'll refer back to that. He was better than this one, in my opinion. But I have a hog tore into his fence, or somehow. We done never found the place. But he said it did. So, and that add that up, maybe, let's say, a half a little peanut, rooted it up. | 15:12 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So my father told him that he would pay him for that. And get the hog shot up. He wouldn't sell it for the pay, he denied that. So, we had a jersey cow, that the little cats, and we was milking them. And that's the way we survived with having milk, and stuff like that. So, we was about the same distance, and this happened on the church grounds. And my father told him he'd see him. | 16:04 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So, we met up there on the church ground, because my dad said that he had said he was going to take the milk cow. I said, "No dad, you will not do that." So, sure enough, we was tying our cow out. Long and then you would tie your cow out for them to eat, or for a change, a long rope. So, when we saw him going to get the cow, my daddy got, that's why I did, and asked him not to. And he said, yes, he was. | 16:45 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So, when he didn't help my daddy, I made way and got there. So, my father said, "Don't." And I said, "Yeah, dad. I'm going to tell him he not carrying that cow." And I faced him. I told him, I looked him in the eyes and I said, "You will not carry that cow." I said, "I won't let you." I said, "My father offered to pay, and that's what we'll do. We'll certify you." Said, "The cow didn't help to hog the other day." I said, "This cow, we have to have it for our milk cow. That's the only one that we have for milk." We didn't need but one for that. | 17:21 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So, he looked at me. And I looked at him. And I repeated again, I said, "You will not take this cow. I'm going to take her home. I'm taking the cow home." Every day I would watch her. So, we paid him for the more than what the damage was. But the thing of it is, they would go farther than they had a means to. So you was oppressed. Few ever see it. But, as I said, since I've been living here thirty, forty years now, and I'm at [indistinct 00:18:49], like I've been told about that it started here, that if I marched on the movement, they would shoot me down like a dog, and let my blood run down the street. | 18:01 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:19:04]? | 18:59 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well, what I said that to, it was a movement here. I was working for civil service. So, I could not legally take a position to march in it. But what I did, I requested for thirty days without pay from the civil service. And that right is given to you, to protect your family. And that was mine to use, because we used the word, "hot." The atmosphere around here was hot. And I feared for the utmost.Because we let know what movement means. And the reason was, I had a right to do so. So, I did so. But many time I left this same home I'm living at in Iron City, I didn't tell my wife and didn't tell my family. I told the mountain, "This could be my last time. I never want to give my life up for one worthy cause, but if it come to that today, I feel that's the price I must pay." | 19:04 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And I'm thankful for that, because somebody had to give their life for the freedom that I have, that I know of. And yet I know I'm not free. To the total package. Yeah, you can go vote. Yes, you can put people in office. But you're not free, because you don't have control. If it's six up against four, the six has got the control. So, it's out of proportion. And we don't have that ratio of four and six. And I said ninety-five percent of control of anything. So, when they is unity, what we need is love, enough for us all. | 20:37 |
| Tunga White | Let me backtrack one second. And you had talked about the incident [indistinct 00:21:42]. Whatever happened to him? You said that they burned the churches or [indistinct 00:21:52]. | 21:31 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | When they had searched and couldn't ever find him, then that's when after they sit a period of time, they ceased to burn churches. But I feel today, that those who are living, could know his whereabout, which is already there. At any time he was yet living, they would have not seeked to give him justice for defending himself, but would have literally abused, killing him, in a derogatory way. | 22:01 |
| Tunga White | Yeah. You mentioned the Klan was notorious for burning churches and houses, and were they involved in [indistinct 00:22:52]? | 22:45 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Not only that, lynching. I don't know of anybody personally at the time I was. But there was a place not far from us, and there's a Colored man came down, FBI from Atlanta, in secret, and worked on this farm. Which I'm not calling it a name, because I know he have a family. But this is the truth. And they didn't know that he was a secret investigation. | 22:55 |
| Tunga White | He was Black. | 23:24 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | He was Black. So, he worked on this man's farm. And he got evidence from the man, and from the people who lived there. And there was a well that he had dug. And many Blacks was said, "That's the last time they saw them." Yeah, that well. Where bottles and bone were found in it. | 23:28 |
| Tunga White | Now what year did the FBI agent come down? Do you know when any of this happened? | 23:47 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was, the story was told to me, I think this was in 1922 or three. I think that's what it was. Somewhat like that. A few years before I was born. I was born in '26. But I had a minister, I told him about it. My father talked about it. And this was, see, like I said, communication, where you get it today, all over the United States. Then communication over this one county would take some time longer than six months, or maybe six years after it actually happened. But after so many people were missing, and [indistinct 00:24:56] when they found out the last place that they was. So, there was silent consent. Something happened there. | 23:47 |
| Tunga White | Now this White farmer who owned— | 25:04 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | A lot of land. | 25:05 |
| Tunga White | Now what was he, was he like a Klan person? Or just a racist? Or who was he? Was he a deputy, or what? | 25:05 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | He owned land. He's a large man. And he was a racist. And not only did the Black and Whites did, too. So, he had a lot of power. And frankly, the way that he sort of think of except being in office, but in the country, he didn't need no office out there. | 25:21 |
| Tunga White | What county was this in? | 25:43 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | It was in Wood County, some—I'm talking about the things that I know. Okay? | 25:43 |
| Tunga White | Testing one, two, three. Talk about professional life or— | 0:02 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This is on now? | 0:23 |
| Tunga White | Yeah. | 0:25 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Okay, well really and truly, it's a shame that so many things happen that we cannot undo. But what we can do now, as I look at life—try to bring love and peace among our tall wall of hatred and misunderstanding. I do think racial, is a great necessity to be solved. In this way, that everybody deserves what they are capable of accepting and doing for themself. But that can be prohibited by not having the privilege, and there are so many people oppressed to Black, until we have such a struggle to function in the capacity that we're able to. So I always said to them, Black friends, that, "Never say no to yourself, in regards of your goal." | 0:25 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Okay? It's just a thing that I think about, that from my experience with Whites, you cannot expect them to give you justice, accept you on equal base with them. Though we all created with minds and able to think and have the ability to achieve and excel in all the ways that are respectable. And yet, when you are denied that opportunity, and many times it seems like you are just dumb, but you're not. It hurts to think about, "Why did this happen?" I don't think no one has a complete answer, other than just to say this, "I think it's selfish." And so, why? What can you really gain? I don't think many people are asking theirself, "What can I gain by being really selfish?" Or an instance, if we think about it, if we had a whole state to ourselves, we could only be in one place at one time. So if we had all the money, we couldn't spend it all. So what I'm saying we need to hear, and for the South and even the North where I traveled and spent time, I can see a vast difference in race, Caucasian and Black. | 1:50 |
| Tunga White | Let me ask you— | 3:52 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. | 3:52 |
| Tunga White | You said had relatives [indistinct 00:03:52] | 3:52 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Right. | 3:52 |
| Tunga White | Did they ever tell you stories or how it was better being in the North was compared to living the South? | 3:52 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. At that time, some time ago. | 4:07 |
| Tunga White | [Indistinct 00:04:10] | 4:10 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I said this was in the early forties that I had brothers that left here and went there— | 4:13 |
| Tunga White | Mm-hmm. | 4:21 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And they was amazed at how the different world and yet it wasn't a complete awareness of the fullness that we have today. And even there, I think that what I'm really trying to say, the main difference was, the story that they told of me, that they didn't look at you as Black to the extent that they do here in regards of segregation. | 4:22 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | For instance, there wasn't places where you had to go and sit at the back, had signs that "Negro," or the word "nigger" which I hate. That they have labeled the Black man as "nigger" because anyone can be a nigger and many people don't understand that today. But that's the difference where, we came to a period for and I had spent to see—this was west of Sylvester and I believe at the time was Holland. If it wasn't Holland, it was—I wish I could think of just to be sure, but it was west of Albany and it was about three somewhat miles from Albany and we was coming back from a church and we stopped at a little place that said "Nigger, leave and run." I didn't want to believe that but that's what it had on the sign. | 5:03 |
| Tunga White | What year was it? | 6:42 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was in the late '40s maybe around '46 to '48. This was—time was still there. That's what got me so | 6:42 |
| Tunga White | Now, what kind of place was this? | 6:55 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was a little place, a little town or settlement, but it had a post office there, it had sheriffs there. So that sign was at one of the cafes and that's about as direct I've seen something segregated to the extent that they published in that time. I remember here another small town at a time where you wasn't allowed during the work hour through the week to be uptown. This is true. And this town and in the adjacent town surrounding town like Cardell, Ashton and Tifton—Albany said from like eight o'clock, if he wasn't saying you just could not walk around. | 6:58 |
| Tunga White | He was talking about the city ordinances. | 8:07 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yeah. Right. Oh okay. What it was like if you was uptown didn't have a job, they could arrest you and they were, if you didn't get off the street. In other words they had a name for it. It wasn't like a curfew, but no loitering or standing around you know. You couldn't go uptown like you can now and stand on the corner and talk with somebody. They would approach you if you don't have, and if you got a job, why are you uptown? So basically back then the Black went to town on the weekend, what we call the weekend last Saturday. Okay, Saturday you was allowed to be up there all day because that's when you had to go get grocery and stuff like that. But they wanted you to have a job or they would give you a job or something. So this was depression too. | 8:12 |
| Tunga White | Did this go around or was that just for Black [indistinct 00:09:43] | 9:29 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I never seen any White was approached. It was the Black. This was the segregation. It was just so one-sided and that was the hate that we had to look back at and expect those of us that was here and I was one at that time. And of course if you went uptown you never stopped walking. If you was going to the drug store, you had to have a valid reason for being going there. But just to say "I'm uptown looking around," then you couldn't do that. | 9:50 |
| Tunga White | Can you recall some of those businesses that [indistinct 00:10:49] | 10:40 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. At that time there was very few—There are three business that we know that the Blacks did have, at most times the size of this, that they had their own barbershop, their own funeral service and somewhere to cook. A restaurant. That was the three main business that they had. Other than that back in the cities and [indistinct 00:11:47] they were all White. It was like illegal for anybody to have anything besides in those categories. You have a little restaurant or some kind of a place to dance, it would be in a restaurant and cafe or something like that. That's what they call it. | 10:55 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Many people and most of know that the Black was across the railroad most of the time, that was the South and the time you went there you see that they—most town in the South has more Black than they have White. So when you go across the railroads, it was more or less you go cross and you'd be heading towards South. So that's what was happening back there. Cause that was something that had other business. | 12:14 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | As the years passed on, they began to launch out into other fields and the one that come to my mind now is they would have places to sell stuff, not necessarily grocery store but that would be added on to the cafe to sell those things like drinks and you could buy maybe [indistinct 00:13:37] and things like that. But we didn't get into the real money line of hardware and your clothing stores. Only Nichols had that as a whole. | 12:53 |
| Tunga White | Can you remember some of the names of these barbershops you had, and restaurants you had here in the forties and at this point and the people who might have owned them? | 13:47 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes, I can remember. When we come to the restaurant I can think of the Davids. And they're still here and some of them still have the business. Okay. | 14:13 |
| Tunga White | Okay. | 14:38 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And the barber shop was Lumpkin. It was George C. Lumpkin, who was a very strong man for the Blacks. He would speak up for the Blacks. One of the ladies—one of the men was Bar Davis. She was some relation, I think it was Miss—the old lady, I think her name was Elsa. But she run the cafe there, just across the railroad. Okay. And the funeral home was Dr. Seth. That's still existing now. The barber shop is no longer in the Lumpkin name, but the funeral home is still existing. | 14:45 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And that's about the—so at the time that I was in, that's who owned those kind of business. | 16:04 |
| Tunga White | Do you recall the treatment of Black and White businesses? | 16:20 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. The treatment was like this. When you go there and say you was going in a clothing store, if you went in a clothing store by yourself, I mean let me rephrase that. If you went in a clothing store and it was only you, you got waited on immediately. But say it was five White in them, I don't care if you was the next in the line after five White, then five more White came, you would be the last person most of them waited on. What I'm saying in plain words, they didn't wait on you being fresh. Many times this would happen in the business and you would know, sometimes you would speak out, but a lot of the Blacks didn't have the, I said the—enough design, or freedom, on account of the pressure that they was in. What I mean, enough to tell them that I was here first because they was working for White people, and if they did so, they would say, "You crazy?" Or, "You stepping out of line when you get back, I'll call so and so and let them know just what you said." | 16:29 |
| Tunga White | And you'd probably [indistinct 00:18:17] | 18:12 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes I can call some that are yet living. That's what kind guess and come to my mind is Walker, Leila Walker. She was here at that time. As I said, the Lumpkins. He spoke out again. At that time my father bought some cotton. He spoke out again. And as, acting as a whole—I think of it now. Okay, and one more important one, the New Kert. The New Kert. N-E-W-K-E-R—wait a minute. New Kert. N-E-W-K-E-R-T. I mean, I think that's the way it's in. | 18:21 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I could look in the book but I think that's what it is. Anyway, that was a family and they still live here. Their relatives. And, great fact it was they had a shootout, they owned some land and the Whites had planned to come and the Ku Klux and do them in. But they were, when they got the word, they just prepared for an [indistinct 00:20:22]. I have to adore them for standing up for what they felt. | 19:42 |
| Tunga White | And what then did they do? | 20:29 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was the New Kert family, | 20:30 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:20:31] | 20:31 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Other words, when they found out they had those high power lines, they turn around because they had the White for a while, day and night, and they had support, but it wasn't a movement support and organization support. As I stated before, that was unity. But there was a lack of communication. I think that was the thing. And we all know that from the ground on their attempt and also others that hope to free the Black people, the way they had to communicate it wasn't that they didn't want to, but they wasn't even allowed to come to gate so they had to pass the message. | 20:36 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And so, some of our religious song came from that to get domestic caught. And the White man really thought we were just singing the song. But it's amazing. And I want to write now how they really feel in their heart when they read the Bible. Like Caucasian here in the United States, here in the South say for the years, and this is one of the problems I have with them now that in a small town they go to—you go to school from—that's—I don't say it's a hundred percent but let's say it's a lot better than it was back then. | 21:25 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But to be fully free, to be fully aware of what's need to be done, then you got to be in on the decision. Okay then I said first, from my point of view, at first you start from the church. If you don't have unity at the church, you really cannot build. It's just going to have a dam, a breakdown. And I know this to be a fact that here, the truth, they don't love the truth in this respect that we all are created by the same God and we are special people. And this has been kept here. Of course, I have a lot—not the—I have a lot of White religious friends that talk to me. We bring up the issues sometimes. | 22:25 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And the results of it still haven't brought about us together. You have some—I've never been a hindrance at the church I attend. I can say that it has never been a—whoever had—whoever would come, we was open and acceptable to them and for them and the [indistinct 00:24:11] to express ourselves. And what was so amazing to me how at voting time, Whites that you never seen before would come to your church for a large congregation and make speeches, when if they can come now to get ready to vote, to get people to vote for them, then I wonder why they don't think it's necessary to come down after getting elected. That [indistinct 00:24:49] them today. We have never been a race to deny anyone from associating, affiliating with whatever organization as a whole, church as a whole, business as a whole. We never put a sign up, "You cannot attend." | 23:39 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So, if we then, as the minority, can accept whoever will, then what do they have really to lose that they really rightfully deserve? That's what I put them and that confused them because they can't look in eye and tell you say, "Well I have nothing to lose," because they're selfish. That's what I tell them. But the bottom truth is, when it all come out they really have nothing to lose. They have so much to gain. But when you think of losing what you have that you feel you control, then that's the fear that they have. But when I look at it, you're not free until you can love your brother and your sister, regardless what race or color he is. | 25:17 |
| Tunga White | You talked about church [indistinct 00:26:29]. | 26:28 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | It was a Methodist Church they burned down. They burned down [indistinct 00:26:36] Charity Church. | 26:29 |
| Tunga White | What's the name again? | 26:35 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Charity. They burned down Gum Creek. All these churches in that neighborhood. It was out in West County, sixteen and around about. They burned down—that's new whole category [indistinct 00:27:15] and another church, I don't know just the name of that church, but it was several church burned down throughout that community out there within ten miles around some of them. Maybe it was ten miles. | 26:39 |
| Tunga White | About how much time was between these churches on this side of town [indistinct 00:27:44]? | 27:43 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | My understanding was that was done within less than a month. See what was happened, as I said, they was looking for this person that defended himself and killed a White man. | 27:43 |
| Tunga White | But you don't recall the other incident? | 28:12 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | After that incident, something happened that I think put fear in the mind, not in that community but other communities. You could go and see the signs and they inspect it at night. And they would meet, they would burn things like maybe your farm stuff just to, as an escape, or burn a cross in the yard or set one up. And if you wasn't, you know, if you didn't have help, then you was on your own in a way that it was so disadvantaged. | 28:19 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I think self-preservation is the first law of nature. And who can blame anybody for looking out for stuff when you don't have communication? Cause many of the homes and the rule, you had to go several miles before you got to somebody. You didn't have a telephone so you could be left open. | 29:04 |
| Tunga White | So you said that you stayed up burning crosses. Do you know anybody who [indistinct 00:29:36] | 29:28 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes? I believe it was one of the governors, some of the good out in our neighborhood and some of the young in that neighborhood. | 29:41 |
| Tunga White | What was [indistinct 00:30:05]? | 30:01 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well, the Youngs, they had land too. Okay. The building had land. Still have land. We have land up were a cross was put up in front of our house. And we taking it down that morning, we taking it down. So these things did happen. We wasn't leaving. We planned to fight, whatever fight we had to fight. And a fight is not always violent. And I think this is where we was blessed that we didn't have to get violent. | 30:10 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But, somehow, the message got around that if it came to that that's what they would do. And I think that's today with on a large scale or a small scale, whoever oppress you, if they find out that you will defend for yourself, many times they will not be aggressive. | 30:57 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:31:24] | 31:24 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. They put a cross that they didn't burn that cross. That could have been one individual, it could have been seven. This was the skill. See what he would do about it, you know. Things like that. And some of them, sometimes they would burn but this and that, it was just put it, the sort of warning, maybe something you did is—things like that. | 31:34 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:31:49] | 31:49 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Hmm. But when they did that, that's my understanding, most of the cross was about man height. That they would sit in the yard from three foot to man height. They'd be large enough where you wouldn't miss it. You know that right, and when they burn a cross, it would be a little higher than man height, and they would run across. So when they would have a hanging and put that cross there, it was pretty huge, sometimes. I was told, I never witnessed any, but I've been told from relatives and friends. | 32:27 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:33:14] | 33:14 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | The story that I can tell that was told to me, that when they would lynch a person, they would mostly do it at night. And they would get a large tree. Sometimes they were dragging for them, and it's just a mockery. That's what I was told. I never witnessed one, but this was from people that was alive and did tell the truth in regards of what was happening and what anything. But I think the big turn of the South was that lady. They had come to her house and this wasn't spread too rapidly, but we finally got the news. She left three of them dead in her backyard. That's right. And that slowed down a lot of the cross burning. That actually happened. | 33:22 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I will do this since I didn't have much time, but since you and I first met, I wanted to get her name to make it sure who she was because it was, and the place. It didn't make headline | 34:48 |
| Tunga White | What year was it? | 35:05 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was in the fifties, I believe. Or late forties or the early fifties. | 35:10 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:35:16] | 35:16 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was around I'd say about 32. About 32 | 35:16 |
| Tunga White | So you said her shooting, did anything ever happen to her? | 35:17 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Not to my knowledge. Cause she was defending herself. The evidence with there and her was that. | 35:47 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | See they had broken in, so they wasn't breaking in on her. She was ready for them. So she just drop them right where she found them. That's what I was told | 35:53 |
| Tunga White | Was she the only one [indistinct 00:36:06]? | 36:03 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I feel this, like I said, they do things. Like for us, they put a cross there. They may not have burnt it, but they put a cross there. And they may not have much action on this but just for you to let out to see it. Then if they keep putting crosses there, they going to do more. So I'm told that they had put crosses there before. Okay. | 36:09 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So evidently she had made up her mind to defend herself and she really did. Cause the lady did. So they would come by in White sheet, a ride in White sheet to scare you. Then some places, whoever was that they thought was out of line, then they would stick up a cross that they wouldn't burn it. But that to let you know. Yeah. So you'd had so much time to refrain from whatever you thought that they was angry with you about. Well, right or wrong. And then if you didn't do it, they would go further. | 36:40 |
| Tunga White | Would you know if everybody knew this? | 37:30 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes, this was known. Some of them was brave enough to say, yeah, that they claimed and some of them as they used to be, what is was preference back then you could be working for them. And that was fine now. But they did have those sheet was for disguise. It was for a lesson.If in your community there was one large person, well and you saw him and his size cause the cover sheet would hide some of it. But it don't take as much for a small as you large. And if you are real tall this height, you could tell people out there, they know who it was and even though they would deny it. But there's just so many people in a community and then plan then some of them sometime if they come far off, it would be so many of them then you could tell. But a group of 15 or 20, a lot, you could tell. This is what I was told and it makes sense to me. | 37:30 |
| Tunga White | So they would ride in a group? | 38:50 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well that depend upon how much pressure they wanted to enforce, get your attention to. So if you heard a single horse and you looked out, and you say fine, you don't—that's not a spirit. But if somebody come out there, they fifteen or twenty horses and they got these, lantern, not lantern, but torches. Well that's enough to get your attention. That's the word that | 38:57 |
| Tunga White | So you said sometimes they put a cross in the yard and they burned sometimes as a warning. | 39:35 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Warning. | 39:35 |
| Tunga White | Sometimes they put a cross in the yard and burned it as a warning. Did you ever hear any of these incidents [indistinct 00:39:49] | 39:35 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Sure. This what was they would do. When they get you afraid so much and they didn't—you didn't contain yourself, they would come in there and call you out. And if you didn't come out they'd say they were going to burn you down. | 39:58 |
| Tunga White | They wouldn't be after everybody in the house. It was just the one person. | 40:19 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | One person, they want him to come out. So if he didn't come out, then they would—whatever method it take to get in the house, kick the door down or force their way in there. Or you open the door for them, they come and search. This is a fact. So many times the person would be known, nobody else, somebody else would hide them away. You see that they had to get, that's how many of them was supposed to leave. Because if they stayed there eventually they was going to find him and hang or kill them or do something. Now they didn't kill all the time. They just did things that I don't even want to even mention. Like your own father, your tongue, stuff like that. Or hand. | 40:23 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | These are the stories. These are true stories. Like our hood, one of our leaders, I won't call his name and I could, but I said like this, I listen to him and we have some good and everything. He said, Now you want me to give credit for two White peoples that I don't even know. And when you are constant depressing us, people are starving, whom you will not give justice to set them free, or give them a chance to not starve to death. You have went in their city and killed them by great numbers. | 41:22 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And his thought was, this is what mine is in many ways, they helped the one that most needed. And I think the Blacks are most needy, but Whites don't see it that way? And when I said, not that they don't know it, but it's different than knowing and seeing. When you see a thing, you can do something about it. You look at it, you take time and look at it. But to go along and just like you was a dog and see a dog, but you don't notice it. He's just a dead dog out there and you have no compassion on it. Okay? | 42:21 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And so this is the way I see it even today. There are not answers in unity between the race as far as Black and White. I don't mean all White, but as a whole you see. Because if it was so, or we wouldn't have these private schools. We wouldn't have these churches that if you went there you's a alien, somebody out of space. Of what? Why are you here? It's only one God. It's only one Son. It's only one Holy Ghost. Wow. And the ignorant part about it. And I tell them, you may separate me now, but God going to separate you. | 43:08 |
| Tunga White | How do you think Whites feel [indistinct 00:44:14]? What is in general, Whites feeling about Blacks? | 44:12 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Back then I didn't know as much about them, but I did have enough concern to ask myself, wonder how they would feel to be treated the way they treat me. Somehow that has never left me. And it's just like this. And I'll tell this story shortly. | 44:26 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Before I had a toothache, many people told me how bad it was. What it do, make you want to, butt your head, scream. I heard this and look what happened. Until it happened, I just heard it. And what I replied, when it happened to me, I said these same words, "I didn't know a toothache would make you feel like that." My point is, I had been told that. See? But when it happened to me, then I kept saying that "I didn't know what you was telling me was true." You see the point. | 44:52 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So as I get—again, I experience wrote the book, so I could tell anybody, as I has been told, how a toothache will hurt and many other things we experienced in life, that people been telling us, our mother and our father and our leaders. We hear it. But when we experience it become a reality. So when the White men have not experienced what we experience, they are ignorant as I was. I was told, but I was ignorant because I hadn't had the feeling and I actually wanted to butt my head. I didn't care how that tooth come out as long as it could come out and that pain be relieved. | 45:51 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So I think if they knew what it was to be denied, to come to the front door and get what you want, you got to pay the same price. They wasn't lowering the price. If some of them have to face going to the back, waiting until one line get out of the way, giving you a difficult look, you just got to wait. They tell you that in— | 46:40 |
| Tunga White | You said that you [indistinct 00:00:15]. | 0:14 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes, sir. I think I stated back that it was too different. Good and a bad one. Okay. I was—if you would call him good, and I think he was happy. I won't call his name, but I can, if anybody ever want to know. But this is a true story. | 0:19 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | He had children the same age he was and my father and him—my father was a little older than he was, but not much. And he had White boys and White girls, and we played together. It wasn't, and it made the problem came up between us. We even had some fight together, but it was still between us and each family, Black and White would not get into any vow. | 0:43 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | In fact, we had our home. They was [indistinct 00:01:30], but when they would go some weekend, they would leave their children at my father's house, and they slept there. | 1:21 |
| Tunga White | How many [indistinct 00:01:42]? | 1:40 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | It was about five. It was two girls and three boys. And I changed to work with some of them after I had children our age, and we talked about it. So this was a man that we could get along with. I mean, he trusted my town, and I can say this. Anybody came out, whether you were White or Black, you had to respect and stay in your own place. | 1:42 |
| Tunga White | Did your father or your mother, at early age, [indistinct 00:02:31]? | 2:19 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well, let me say it like this. They were very religious, and they believed in you on an honest doubt. So this what they would say when we would go and work at other sites where it was White and Black. White, most only, they would say this: If something came up, you know the way home. Okay? They said, long as nobody don't hit you, whatever they call you that don't make you be that. This is the kind of instruction they gave. But if somebody hit you, to then let them know that they're wrong. Tell them don't hit you no more, and that they perceived you defend yourself. | 2:41 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | They were very strict about us not introducing violence, to flee from it. And the statement I'll never forget. My father told me. He said, You're not fleeing because you're a coward. He said, Takes a better man a lot of the time to walk away from row than to do to stir up. So I feel that most of them, and to my knowledge I haven't had the first brother, our sister, to be [indistinct 00:04:26] for anything except one. And it wasn't a crime. A friend, one of his friends, he was a [indistinct 00:04:36] and he told us why I have to tell him to come down to jailhouse. He wanted to talk with him. So when he got down there, he locked him up, and he hadn't even—he was a commoner. He hadn't even had his stuff. So, of course, yeah, we went on to get him, but at that time, they wouldn't release him because to get a bail it was too late to get somebody to sign it. So he had to stay there that night. That was [indistinct 00:05:05], so my brother told him. | 3:42 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So why didn't you tell me it was a check that he had written? And which [indistinct 00:05:16], but not intentionally. Okay. And what I mean by bounce, insufficient funds, somebody you thought done already turning a check, and you didn't keep up with it, so this was the kind of thing. So he paid it off the next day. He said, well you could have paid it for, but this was some little thing that they would do. And I can say if he had been a White man, he'd have never had to stay in jail. He'd never been arrested. He just called him and told him, say, you got a check here. Come pick it up. I've known this to happen. | 5:08 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So these are the same. And back to my mother and father instruction and regards of White, they said, Well, we are here and they are here. Said they have their place, and we have ours. Said, but that don't make us any lesser than they there. So they had trial in the cell. They say, you don't have to get into trouble unless it's essential necessary. I said, defend yourself. They didn't want nobody to just beat on, but they wouldn't stand for that. And I think the White people knew that.And yet there was those that were fighting, and you just had to let them know that you didn't want to. [indistinct 00:06:53] trouble or have a fight. But if they sensed that you going to stand up for yourself, there some of the boys said around the summertime when you'd be [indistinct 00:07:13], they would see who would be the best man and stuff like that. Some of them would get angry but never nothing ever big come out of that. | 5:54 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And I have three brothers that was very good men and spent, and I had a cousin, didn't weigh 155 pounds, but I assure you, in his lifetime, if he got a hold to you, it would take two men to get him whatever he had. He had the grip in his hand. I never seen anyone that small had that grip. But once he caught anything you couldn't—one man—I never seen one man could shake it loose. | 7:23 |
| Tunga White | That reminds me you talking about [indistinct 00:07:58]. You Black, and you try to defend themselves [indistinct 00:08:17]. Did they rally around the people that something happened to the community and help them out or— | 7:56 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | The way I see it, it feels a thing we never have control of. And when you look at the situation, that's what makes you feel. That was those that did what that would have a way out. And some would do it by just putting their life on the line, and say if I'm going to die, I'm going to die for a good cause. And I might have said just since I've been talking long, but I do know how I left here and to stand up for my [indistinct 00:09:09] where I worked to that on the base. I taken home legal style faith to defend for my family. I was public relation in the movement here. And I think the biggest headline that it was from the story, all the movement involved after so much had been done, mace had been sprayed on this particular day. And some of the organization and the vision phase, the belt buckles had been cut, and it was just almost unbelievable. | 8:32 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So as public relation, I released the news. I was one of those. So Benny had been locked up, and we went after this incident happened, Phil was so much among the organization. So when we got back to the center where we met at, I said, We got to live here. I said, So I'm going down to keep police office and let them know what they did that we still was going to have another month. So my mother came home and break, and it was about four of us. [indistinct 00:11:02]. | 10:02 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | We went our [indistinct 00:11:05], and they told us if we march that they would shoot us down, let our blood run down the street as if we was dog. But we had to alternate things. When we got back, we had told them why we had been, somebody had to keep the movement alive because we had to go and make speeches and collect whatever we could to keep the movement going. But what I'm—refer me, you just have to do what you have to do, and I really believed them when they said that they would shoot us down like dogs. | 11:04 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But if it had to be done, this was time for me to do it. So when I got back, they said, No. I said, Yeah. My brother said he wanted to go. I said, No. I'll go. So behind that there was three of us [indistinct 00:12:20], bricks, and little bit of cuffing myself. We left out and we said marching. And we saw the police car come. I was thinking of mine. I said, Well, you know what cause this is for. When they got there, they didn't [indistinct 00:12:44] really, other than Samuel said, Well, y'all stayed out as long as you could. My reply was to them. Somebody had to stand up for justice. So they locked us up. | 11:57 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | The news went out [indistinct 00:13:07] march, and that kept it alive. And from that a lot of things was [indistinct 00:13:15]. A lot of things, even today, we pan and fight for. I don't mind saying this and don't care who know it. I know my phone was tapped, and it stayed tapped at least ten or twelve years after that. | 13:03 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:13:37]. | 13:30 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | During the movement. I'm not for sure just what year. I could take the time and get it, but rather than [indistinct 00:13:48] year, I put it like this. I believe it was in early '60. I believe it was somewhere right there. | 13:36 |
| Tunga White | You think a lot of people have their phone tapped during the movement? | 14:08 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I do know. Yeah. It's quite a few, but some of them—well, they said that they could tell when they pick it up. You can tell. And people get your phone numbers that you don't know and pretend they hang up, and it don't be hung up. You understand what I'm saying? They have a way that they can listening on. | 14:11 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:14:34]. | 14:34 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I don't know what would be the greatest question for me to relate to, and this way because I don't want to accuse nobody of something. But I will say this. Your fisher in each city and town, they know what's going on. They just won't to admit it to it. And they, as a majority, whoever called the shots, and this is from the mayor now, they can stop anything, start up if they want to. There's a ways of doing it, and I've told them that, but they don't like for you to say that. | 14:34 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And I said to the president today, if he don't have the fear, he has the power to speak up for things that are unjust that he know. And the world knows, not only just the United States know or so unjust for Black still. There's a different level. And a lot of Blacks, you cannot tell them this, but I can't help but say experience wrote the book. When you experience and know these things. For instance, my house is paid for. Okay. There's a White man house don't cost half as much as mine. I can go and require for a $20,000 loan, and he'll ask me what collateral you have, and I'll tell him what it is and what have been appraised for. And I'll get denied of the loan, and the White man that don't have half as much as I am, he can get loan. That is today. Right on. | 15:27 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So what I'm saying is this, they can always say, it ain't me. It's not my bank. I have to go by these laws. See? But I grant you this. It ain't the law so much. It's who you know, and what they'll do for you first. So when you become a White man, and I say become a White man. If you turn every way they want you to turn, then you can get by what you want and [indistinct 00:17:22]. You see what I'm saying? | 16:46 |
| Tunga White | Yeah. | 17:22 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But if you stand on your own feet as an individual with dignity, they see you as a Black person, and they will deny you of your human rights by saying that this can't be done this way. And by the same token, I have got favored or I've seen other blacks could get favored, and that made her feel White. But I don't say this is just. I say if we're going to have democracy, let it be for all, not for color, not for who you are. | 17:24 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. We need to recognize the law. Yes. We need recognize the mayor. But the voter elect, that's what they supposed be for the people, by the people, and for the people as a whole and not [indistinct 00:18:20]. So yeah, but it will be here a long time as far as man got to do with it because it's so have been embedded. It has been so stabilized that it's hard for you as a Black person to achieve. | 18:02 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | There were few that do, but see, you don't need a few. You need it open for all. Then everybody have a chance to be somebody. Men would be somebody, but they don't have the opportunity and the chance. They're denied of—when we look back, the cost has been there. The price we're paid is still there, but what people don't realize, while we haven't accomplished more, it's not because we didn't want to. A lot of people say, Well you didn't want it. I can say, Yes, in some case because you didn't know how to want. You got to know how to want before have a reason. | 18:52 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | They said, Well, you will have plenty of reasons. We still know we need more doctors, more lawyers. So we going to education school and college, but that's not all of it. And I'm referring the thing that I've experienced. | 19:44 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | My son, he graduated from college, and this is what—see, they always got something to, for [indistinct 00:20:14]. Many jobs he applied for. One of the two situations was of this: you don't have that experience— | 20:01 |
| Tunga White | Or you're overqualified. | 20:25 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Or you're overqualified. Now how can this be just? We know the bottom line of that. If a person come in and have more qualification, then they become the aggressor in many ways that the other person can deny, cannot deny him achieving in his aggression. He become manager. He become owner. So you are more qualified. If I let you in here, okay, and not have an experience. So let's look at that. That explains itself. When you won't let me work—when you won't give me what I'm qualified for, why can't I get experience? | 20:26 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:21:18]. | 21:14 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And again, the jailhouse is not going to solve the problem here. They're going to cost the United States and whoever funding more the tax payer for Black and White. See. But when we come of a unity, then we can have that love that we can tear down many jails. What I mean—I mean literally tear them down and morally tear them down and socially tear them down, and we can do things that everybody can feel proud, but I can't see how the White man or the Black man can feel proud of it because we don't have the unity. I know— | 21:18 |
| Tunga White | I don't want to cut you off. | 22:03 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Go ahead. | 22:04 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | [indistinct 00:00:01] calm down. After they get elected, that [indistinct 00:00:07] today. We have never been a race to deny anyone from associating, affiliating, with whatever organization as a whole, church as a whole, business as a whole. We never put a sign up. You cannot [indistinct 00:00:34]. | 0:01 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So if we then, as the minority, can accept whoever will, then what do they have really to lose, that they really rightfully deserve. That's what I put to them, and that confused them, because they can't look you in the eye and tell you, say, "I have nothing to lose." Because they're [indistinct 00:01:05], that's what I tell them. | 0:35 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | But the bottom truth is, when it all come out, they really have nothing to lose, they have so much to gain, but when you think of losing what you have, that you feel you control, then that's the fear that they have. But when I look at it, you're not free, until you can love your brother and your sister, regardless of what's the race or color. | 1:09 |
| Tunga White | You talk about truth, [indistinct 00:01:41] you said the Klan burned down some churches [indistinct 00:01:48]— | 1:35 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Right. | 1:35 |
| Tunga White | Do you remember the names of the churches that were burned down? | 1:35 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | There was the Methodist church that burned down. They burned down [indistinct 00:01:58], that was a church. | 1:53 |
| Tunga White | What's the name again? | 1:54 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | [indistinct 00:01:58]. And they burned down Gum Creek. All these churches was in that neighborhood. | 1:58 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:02:21]. | 2:18 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | It was [indistinct 00:02:25] and around about. They burned down, actually, New Hope, [indistinct 00:02:33], Davis Grove, and another church. I don't know just the name of that church, but there were several church burned down, throughout that community. I would say within ten miles around, some of them. Maybe was ten miles from the other ones. | 2:21 |
| Tunga White | About how much time [indistinct 00:03:01]? Was it years or was it— | 3:00 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | My understanding [indistinct 00:03:02] is that this was done within less than a month. See what was happen is, I said, they was looking for this person that defended himself and killed a White man. | 3:02 |
| Tunga White | But do you recall [indistinct 00:03:35] or businesses, or [indistinct 00:03:35]? | 3:32 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | After that incident something happened, that I think I put fear in their mind, not in that community, but other communities. You could go and see the signs in the day, and especially at night. And they were mean. They would burn things like maybe a [indistinct 00:04:00] just to actually scare you, or burn a cross in the yard, or set one up. If you didn't have help, then you were on your own, in a way, that it was so disadvantaged, I think self-preservation is the first law of nature. And who can blame anybody for looking out for self, when you don't have communication. | 3:38 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Because many of the homes in the rural, you had to go several miles before you got to somebody. You didn't have a telephone. So you could be left open. | 4:35 |
| Tunga White | When you said they [indistinct 00:04:51] burning crosses and different things, do you remember anybody [indistinct 00:04:58]? | 4:50 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes. I believe it was one of the [indistinct 00:05:06]. Some of the [indistinct 00:05:08] out in our neighborhood. And some of the young in that neighborhood. | 5:03 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:05:25]? | 5:13 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | The young, they had land too. The [indistinct 00:05:37] still have land. We have land out where a cross was in front of our house. And we taken it down that morning. We taken it down. So these things did happen. We wasn't leaving. We planned to fight, whatever fight we had to fight. And a fight is not always violent. And I think this is where we as blessed, that we didn't have to get violent, but sometimes the message got around that if it taken that, that's what they would do. | 5:31 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And I think that's today, both on a large scale and a small scale, whoever [indistinct 00:06:37] if they find out that you will defend for yourself, many times they will not be as aggressive. | 6:28 |
| Tunga White | You said they burned you all's yard. Were you there when they burned the cross [indistinct 00:06:56]— | 6:46 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | They put a cross there. They didn't burn that cross. | 6:55 |
| Tunga White | Oh, they just put it there. | 6:58 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | It could have been one individual, or it could have been several. This was to scare you, see what you would do about it. Things like that. And sometimes they would burn it, burn the cross. But this one, that was— | 6:59 |
| Tunga White | This one [indistinct 00:07:17]. | 7:10 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | It was sort of like a warning, you know? Maybe something you did it. Things like that. | 7:18 |
| Tunga White | Now, when you see the movies, when you see the Klan coming in, in their cars, or on horseback, and they burn a big old cross, was it a really big cross [indistinct 00:07:38]? Or was it like ten feet tall or something [indistinct 00:07:42]? | 7:20 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | When they did that, my understanding, most of the crosses was about man high, that they would set in your yard, from three foot to man high. They would be large enough where you wouldn't miss them. You know? | 7:42 |
| Tunga White | Mm-hmm. | 8:02 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | [indistinct 00:08:04]. Now, when they burn a cross, it would be a little higher than man, when they would burn a cross, or when they would have a hanging, and put that cross there. It was pretty huge sometimes. So I never witnessed a hanging, but I've been told from relatives and friends. | 8:04 |
| Tunga White | About [indistinct 00:08:33]? | 8:29 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Right. | 8:33 |
| Tunga White | Do you recall any of those stories about [indistinct 00:08:39]? | 8:35 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | The story that I can tell that was told to me, that when they would lynch a person, they would mostly do it at night. And they would get a large tree. Sometimes they would drag him before they lynch him. And just from [indistinct 00:09:15], that's what I was told. I never witnessed one, but this was from people that was alive and did tell the truth, and regardless of what was happening, and what has happened. But I think the big turn of the South was that a lady, they had come to her house, and this was [indistinct 00:09:45], but we finally got the news, she left three of them dead in her backyard. That's right. And that slowed down a lot of the cross burning. That actually happened. | 8:42 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:10:05]? | 10:03 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I will do this, since they didn't have much time, but since you and I first met I wanted to get her name and make sure who she was, because it was in the paper. It did make headlines. | 10:09 |
| Tunga White | Which year was this? | 10:29 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was in the '50s, I believe. Late '40s or the early '50s. | 10:29 |
| Tunga White | When you [indistinct 00:10:43] or what [indistinct 00:10:45]? | 10:38 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | This was around, I'd say, about '32. About '32. | 10:51 |
| Tunga White | So you said this was the first individual that [indistinct 00:11:02] happen? | 10:52 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Not to my knowledge. Because she was defending herself. The evidence was [indistinct 00:11:09]. | 11:08 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:11:09]. | 11:08 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | See, they had broke in. They were breaking in on her. She was ready for them. So she just dropped them right where she found them. That's what I was told. | 11:08 |
| Tunga White | Was she warned [indistinct 00:11:29]? | 11:24 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | I feel this, like I said, they do things, like for us, they put a cross there. They may not burn it, but they put a cross there. And they may not have much action left, but just [indistinct 00:11:51] see it. Then if they keep putting crosses there, they're going to do more. So I'm told that they had put crosses there before. Okay. So evidently, she had made up her mind to defend herself, and she really did, because the lady did. So they would come by in white sheets, or ride in white sheets, to scare you off. Then some places, whoever that they thought was out of line, then would pick up a cross there, they wouldn't burn it, but that's to let you know— | 11:30 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:12:28]. | 12:26 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yeah. So you would have had so much time to refrain from whatever you thought that they was angry with you about. Whether it was right or wrong. Then if you didn't do it, they would go further. | 12:27 |
| Tunga White | So did you ever know [indistinct 00:12:50]? | 12:50 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Yes, this was known. Some of them was brave enough to yell that they was the Klan. And some of them, as there is today, but it wasn't as present back then. You could be working for them. And that was found out. But they did have, those sheets were for disguise. But for an instance, if in your community there was one large person, and you saw him, and his size, because the cover sheet would hide some of it, but it don't take as much for a small one as do a large. And if you're real tall, this— | 12:51 |
| Tunga White | Or if you're heavy [indistinct 00:13:44]— | 13:43 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Right. You could tell people everything. They know who you were. And even they would deny, but there's just so many people in a community, and then the Klan, then sometimes if they come [indistinct 00:13:59], there would be so may of them, then you could tell. But a group of fifteen to twenty, a lot, you could tell. This is what I was told. And it makes sense to me. | 13:43 |
| Tunga White | So they would ride in groups [indistinct 00:14:19]? | 14:18 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Well, that depend on how much pressure they wanted to enforce or get your attention to. If you heard several horse and you looked out there and you see five, that's not as fearful, but if somebody come around there's fifteen or twenty horses, and they got these torches, that's enough to get your attention. That's the way that is. | 14:19 |
| Tunga White | So you said sometimes there's two crosses in your yard, and they burn as a warning. | 14:56 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Warning. | 14:56 |
| Tunga White | [indistinct 00:15:05] the cross in your yard and burn them as a warning. Do you have any incidences that you was going [indistinct 00:15:16]? | 15:15 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Sure. This was what they would do. When they get you afraid so much, and you didn't defend yourself, they would come in there, and call you out. And if you didn't come out they would say they were going to burn you down. So— | 15:15 |
| Tunga White | So they wouldn't be after anybody in the house, it was just to get one person [indistinct 00:15:37]— | 15:31 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | One person, whoever, they want him to come out. So if he didn't come out, then they would, whatever message it take to get in the house, kick the door down, or force their way in there, or you open the door for them, they come and search. This was a fight. | 15:37 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So many times a person would be [indistinct 00:16:05] somebody else would hide them away. Or they had to get—that's how many of them was forced to leave, because if they stayed there, eventually, they was going to find them, and hang them, or kill them, or do something. Now, they didn't kill all the time. They just did things that I don't want to even mention, like your own privates, your tongue, stuff like that. [indistinct 00:16:36]. Or a hand, you know? These are true stories, like I heard, one of our leaders, I won't call his name, and I could, but I'll say it like this, I listened to him. We have some good [indistinct 00:17:00]. | 16:01 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | He said, "Now, you want me to give credit for White people that I don't even know. And when you're constantly depressing us. People are starving, whom you will not give [indistinct 00:17:25] to set them free, or give them a chance to not starve to death. You have went in their cities and killed them by great numbers." | 17:00 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And his point was, basically what mine is in many ways, to help them ones that most need it. And I think the Blacks most need it, but Whites don't see it that way. And when I say, not that they don't know it, but there's difference in knowing and seeing. When you see a thing you can do something about it. You look at it. You take time and look at it. But to go along and just like you was a dog, and see a dog, but you don't notice it. He's just a dead dog out there. And you have no compassion on him. | 17:43 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So this is the way I see, even today, there are not answers in [indistinct 00:18:42] between the races, as far as Black and White. I don't mean all Whites, but as a whole. You see, because if it was so, or we wouldn't have these private schools, we wouldn't have these churches that if you went there you was an alien, somebody out of space, or "Why are you here?" There's only one God, there's only one Son, there's only one Holy Ghost. Now why? | 18:31 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | And the ignorant part about it, and I tell them, you may separate me now, but God is going to separate you. | 19:17 |
| Tunga White | How do you think Whites feel [indistinct 00:19:36] talking about [indistinct 00:19:38]? How, just in general, do Whites feel about Blacks? [indistinct 00:19:45] back then. | 19:26 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | Back then I didn't know as much about them, but I did have enough concern to ask myself, I wonder how they would feel to be treated the way the treat me. Somehow that haven't never left me. And it's just like this. And I'll tell this story shortly. Before I had a toothache, many people told me how bad it was, what it do to make you want to butt your head, scream. I heard this. And look what happened. Until it happened, I just heard it. And what I replied when it happened to me, I said these same words. I didn't know a toothache would make you feel like that. | 19:47 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | My point is I had been told that, but when it happened to me then I customer say that I didn't know what you were telling me was true. You see the point? So as I get—again, [indistinct 00:21:05]. So I could tell anybody, as I have been told, how a toothache will hurt.And then the other thing [indistinct 00:21:09] that people have been telling, our mothers, and our fathers, and our leaders, we hear, but when we experience it, it becomes a reality. So when the White man have not experience what we experience, they are ignorant, as I was. I was told, but I was ignorant, because I hadn't had the feeling. And I actually wanted to butt my head. I didn't care how that tooth come out and that pain be relieved. | 20:58 |
| Roosevelt Cuffie | So I think if they knew what it was to be denied to come to the front door, and get what you want, you got to pay the same price, they wasn't lowering the price, because some of them had to face going to the back, waiting until one line get out the way. Giving you a [indistinct 00:22:33] look, you just got to wait. They could tell you that any— | 22:02 |
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