Roosevelt Cuffie: [indistinct 00:00:01] calm down. After they get elected, that [indistinct 00:00:07] today. We have never been a race to deny anyone from associating, affiliating, with whatever organization as a whole, church as a whole, business as a whole. We never put a sign up. You cannot [indistinct 00:00:34]. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: So if we then, as the minority, can accept whoever will, then what do they have really to lose, that they really rightfully deserve. That's what I put to them, and that confused them, because they can't look you in the eye and tell you, say, "I have nothing to lose." Because they're [indistinct 00:01:05], that's what I tell them. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: But the bottom truth is, when it all come out, they really have nothing to lose, they have so much to gain, but when you think of losing what you have, that you feel you control, then that's the fear that they have. But when I look at it, you're not free, until you can love your brother and your sister, regardless of what's the race or color. 

Tunga White: You talk about truth, [indistinct 00:01:41] you said the Klan burned down some churches [indistinct 00:01:48]— 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Right. 

Tunga White: Do you remember the names of the churches that were burned down? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: There was the Methodist church that burned down. They burned down [indistinct 00:01:58], that was a church. 

Tunga White: What's the name again? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: [indistinct 00:01:58]. And they burned down Gum Creek. All these churches was in that neighborhood. 

Tunga White: [indistinct 00:02:21]. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: It was [indistinct 00:02:25] and around about. They burned down, actually, New Hope, [indistinct 00:02:33], Davis Grove, and another church. I don't know just the name of that church, but there were several church burned down, throughout that community. I would say within ten miles around, some of them. Maybe was ten miles from the other ones. 

Tunga White: About how much time [indistinct 00:03:01]? Was it years or was it— 

Roosevelt Cuffie: My understanding [indistinct 00:03:02] is that this was done within less than a month. See what was happen is, I said, they was looking for this person that defended himself and killed a White man. 

Tunga White: But do you recall [indistinct 00:03:35] or businesses, or [indistinct 00:03:35]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: After that incident something happened, that I think I put fear in their mind, not in that community, but other communities. You could go and see the signs in the day, and especially at night. And they were mean. They would burn things like maybe a [indistinct 00:04:00] just to actually scare you, or burn a cross in the yard, or set one up. If you didn't have help, then you were on your own, in a way, that it was so disadvantaged, I think self-preservation is the first law of nature. And who can blame anybody for looking out for self, when you don't have communication. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Because many of the homes in the rural, you had to go several miles before you got to somebody. You didn't have a telephone. So you could be left open. 

Tunga White: When you said they [indistinct 00:04:51] burning crosses and different things, do you remember anybody [indistinct 00:04:58]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Yes. I believe it was one of the [indistinct 00:05:06]. Some of the [indistinct 00:05:08] out in our neighborhood. And some of the young in that neighborhood. 

Tunga White: [indistinct 00:05:25]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: The young, they had land too. The [indistinct 00:05:37] still have land. We have land out where a cross was in front of our house. And we taken it down that morning. We taken it down. So these things did happen. We wasn't leaving. We planned to fight, whatever fight we had to fight. And a fight is not always violent. And I think this is where we as blessed, that we didn't have to get violent, but sometimes the message got around that if it taken that, that's what they would do. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: And I think that's today, both on a large scale and a small scale, whoever [indistinct 00:06:37] if they find out that you will defend for yourself, many times they will not be as aggressive. 

Tunga White: You said they burned you all's yard. Were you there when they burned the cross [indistinct 00:06:56]— 

Roosevelt Cuffie: They put a cross there. They didn't burn that cross. 

Tunga White: Oh, they just put it there. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: It could have been one individual, or it could have been several. This was to scare you, see what you would do about it. Things like that. And sometimes they would burn it, burn the cross. But this one, that was— 

Tunga White: This one [indistinct 00:07:17]. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: It was sort of like a warning, you know? Maybe something you did it. Things like that. 

Tunga White: Now, when you see the movies, when you see the Klan coming in, in their cars, or on horseback, and they burn a big old cross, was it a really big cross [indistinct 00:07:38]? Or was it like ten feet tall or something [indistinct 00:07:42]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: When they did that, my understanding, most of the crosses was about man high, that they would set in your yard, from three foot to man high. They would be large enough where you wouldn't miss them. You know? 

Tunga White: Mm-hmm. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: [indistinct 00:08:04]. Now, when they burn a cross, it would be a little higher than man, when they would burn a cross, or when they would have a hanging, and put that cross there. It was pretty huge sometimes. So I never witnessed a hanging, but I've been told from relatives and friends. 

Tunga White: About [indistinct 00:08:33]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Right. 

Tunga White: Do you recall any of those stories about [indistinct 00:08:39]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: The story that I can tell that was told to me, that when they would lynch a person, they would mostly do it at night. And they would get a large tree. Sometimes they would drag him before they lynch him. And just from [indistinct 00:09:15], that's what I was told. I never witnessed one, but this was from people that was alive and did tell the truth, and regardless of what was happening, and what has happened. But I think the big turn of the South was that a lady, they had come to her house, and this was [indistinct 00:09:45], but we finally got the news, she left three of them dead in her backyard. That's right. And that slowed down a lot of the cross burning. That actually happened. 

Tunga White: [indistinct 00:10:05]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: I will do this, since they didn't have much time, but since you and I first met I wanted to get her name and make sure who she was, because it was in the paper. It did make headlines. 

Tunga White: Which year was this? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: This was in the '50s, I believe. Late '40s or the early '50s. 

Tunga White: When you [indistinct 00:10:43] or what [indistinct 00:10:45]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: This was around, I'd say, about '32. About '32. 

Tunga White: So you said this was the first individual that [indistinct 00:11:02] happen? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Not to my knowledge. Because she was defending herself. The evidence was [indistinct 00:11:09]. 

Tunga White: [indistinct 00:11:09]. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: See, they had broke in. They were breaking in on her. She was ready for them. So she just dropped them right where she found them. That's what I was told. 

Tunga White: Was she warned [indistinct 00:11:29]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: I feel this, like I said, they do things, like for us, they put a cross there. They may not burn it, but they put a cross there. And they may not have much action left, but just [indistinct 00:11:51] see it. Then if they keep putting crosses there, they're going to do more. So I'm told that they had put crosses there before. Okay. So evidently, she had made up her mind to defend herself, and she really did, because the lady did. So they would come by in white sheets, or ride in white sheets, to scare you off. Then some places, whoever that they thought was out of line, then would pick up a cross there, they wouldn't burn it, but that's to let you know— 

Tunga White: [indistinct 00:12:28]. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Yeah. So you would have had so much time to refrain from whatever you thought that they was angry with you about. Whether it was right or wrong. Then if you didn't do it, they would go further. 

Tunga White: So did you ever know [indistinct 00:12:50]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Yes, this was known. Some of them was brave enough to yell that they was the Klan. And some of them, as there is today, but it wasn't as present back then. You could be working for them. And that was found out. But they did have, those sheets were for disguise. But for an instance, if in your community there was one large person, and you saw him, and his size, because the cover sheet would hide some of it, but it don't take as much for a small one as do a large. And if you're real tall, this— 

Tunga White: Or if you're heavy [indistinct 00:13:44]— 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Right. You could tell people everything. They know who you were. And even they would deny, but there's just so many people in a community, and then the Klan, then sometimes if they come [indistinct 00:13:59], there would be so may of them, then you could tell. But a group of fifteen to twenty, a lot, you could tell. This is what I was told. And it makes sense to me. 

Tunga White: So they would ride in groups [indistinct 00:14:19]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Well, that depend on how much pressure they wanted to enforce or get your attention to. If you heard several horse and you looked out there and you see five, that's not as fearful, but if somebody come around there's fifteen or twenty horses, and they got these torches, that's enough to get your attention. That's the way that is. 

Tunga White: So you said sometimes there's two crosses in your yard, and they burn as a warning. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Warning. 

Tunga White: [indistinct 00:15:05] the cross in your yard and burn them as a warning. Do you have any incidences that you was going [indistinct 00:15:16]? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Sure. This was what they would do. When they get you afraid so much, and you didn't defend yourself, they would come in there, and call you out. And if you didn't come out they would say they were going to burn you down. So— 

Tunga White: So they wouldn't be after anybody in the house, it was just to get one person [indistinct 00:15:37]— 

Roosevelt Cuffie: One person, whoever, they want him to come out. So if he didn't come out, then they would, whatever message it take to get in the house, kick the door down, or force their way in there, or you open the door for them, they come and search. This was a fight. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: So many times a person would be [indistinct 00:16:05] somebody else would hide them away. Or they had to get—that's how many of them was forced to leave, because if they stayed there, eventually, they was going to find them, and hang them, or kill them, or do something. Now, they didn't kill all the time. They just did things that I don't want to even mention, like your own privates, your tongue, stuff like that. [indistinct 00:16:36]. Or a hand, you know? These are true stories, like I heard, one of our leaders, I won't call his name, and I could, but I'll say it like this, I listened to him. We have some good [indistinct 00:17:00]. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: He said, "Now, you want me to give credit for White people that I don't even know. And when you're constantly depressing us. People are starving, whom you will not give [indistinct 00:17:25] to set them free, or give them a chance to not starve to death. You have went in their cities and killed them by great numbers." 

Roosevelt Cuffie: And his point was, basically what mine is in many ways, to help them ones that most need it. And I think the Blacks most need it, but Whites don't see it that way. And when I say, not that they don't know it, but there's difference in knowing and seeing. When you see a thing you can do something about it. You look at it. You take time and look at it. But to go along and just like you was a dog, and see a dog, but you don't notice it. He's just a dead dog out there. And you have no compassion on him. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: So this is the way I see, even today, there are not answers in [indistinct 00:18:42] between the races, as far as Black and White. I don't mean all Whites, but as a whole. You see, because if it was so, or we wouldn't have these private schools, we wouldn't have these churches that if you went there you was an alien, somebody out of space, or "Why are you here?" There's only one God, there's only one Son, there's only one Holy Ghost. Now why? 

Roosevelt Cuffie: And the ignorant part about it, and I tell them, you may separate me now, but God is going to separate you. 

Tunga White: How do you think Whites feel [indistinct 00:19:36] talking about [indistinct 00:19:38]? How, just in general, do Whites feel about Blacks? [indistinct 00:19:45] back then. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: Back then I didn't know as much about them, but I did have enough concern to ask myself, I wonder how they would feel to be treated the way the treat me. Somehow that haven't never left me. And it's just like this. And I'll tell this story shortly. Before I had a toothache, many people told me how bad it was, what it do to make you want to butt your head, scream. I heard this. And look what happened. Until it happened, I just heard it. And what I replied when it happened to me, I said these same words. I didn't know a toothache would make you feel like that. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: My point is I had been told that, but when it happened to me then I customer say that I didn't know what you were telling me was true. You see the point? So as I get—again, [indistinct 00:21:05]. So I could tell anybody, as I have been told, how a toothache will hurt.And then the other thing [indistinct 00:21:09] that people have been telling, our mothers, and our fathers, and our leaders, we hear, but when we experience it, it becomes a reality. So when the White man have not experience what we experience, they are ignorant, as I was. I was told, but I was ignorant, because I hadn't had the feeling. And I actually wanted to butt my head. I didn't care how that tooth come out and that pain be relieved. 

Roosevelt Cuffie: So I think if they knew what it was to be denied to come to the front door, and get what you want, you got to pay the same price, they wasn't lowering the price, because some of them had to face going to the back, waiting until one line get out the way. Giving you a [indistinct 00:22:33] look, you just got to wait. They could tell you that any—