Tunga White: You said that you [indistinct 00:00:15].
Roosevelt Cuffie: Yes, sir. I think I stated back that it was too different. Good and a bad one. Okay. I was—if you would call him good, and I think he was happy. I won't call his name, but I can, if anybody ever want to know. But this is a true story.
Roosevelt Cuffie: He had children the same age he was and my father and him—my father was a little older than he was, but not much. And he had White boys and White girls, and we played together. It wasn't, and it made the problem came up between us. We even had some fight together, but it was still between us and each family, Black and White would not get into any vow.
Roosevelt Cuffie: In fact, we had our home. They was [indistinct 00:01:30], but when they would go some weekend, they would leave their children at my father's house, and they slept there.
Tunga White: How many [indistinct 00:01:42]?
Roosevelt Cuffie: It was about five. It was two girls and three boys. And I changed to work with some of them after I had children our age, and we talked about it. So this was a man that we could get along with. I mean, he trusted my town, and I can say this. Anybody came out, whether you were White or Black, you had to respect and stay in your own place.
Tunga White: Did your father or your mother, at early age, [indistinct 00:02:31]?
Roosevelt Cuffie: Well, let me say it like this. They were very religious, and they believed in you on an honest doubt. So this what they would say when we would go and work at other sites where it was White and Black. White, most only, they would say this: If something came up, you know the way home. Okay? They said, long as nobody don't hit you, whatever they call you that don't make you be that. This is the kind of instruction they gave. But if somebody hit you, to then let them know that they're wrong. Tell them don't hit you no more, and that they perceived you defend yourself.
Roosevelt Cuffie: They were very strict about us not introducing violence, to flee from it. And the statement I'll never forget. My father told me. He said, You're not fleeing because you're a coward. He said, Takes a better man a lot of the time to walk away from row than to do to stir up. So I feel that most of them, and to my knowledge I haven't had the first brother, our sister, to be [indistinct 00:04:26] for anything except one. And it wasn't a crime. A friend, one of his friends, he was a [indistinct 00:04:36] and he told us why I have to tell him to come down to jailhouse. He wanted to talk with him. So when he got down there, he locked him up, and he hadn't even—he was a commoner. He hadn't even had his stuff. So, of course, yeah, we went on to get him, but at that time, they wouldn't release him because to get a bail it was too late to get somebody to sign it. So he had to stay there that night. That was [indistinct 00:05:05], so my brother told him.
Roosevelt Cuffie: So why didn't you tell me it was a check that he had written? And which [indistinct 00:05:16], but not intentionally. Okay. And what I mean by bounce, insufficient funds, somebody you thought done already turning a check, and you didn't keep up with it, so this was the kind of thing. So he paid it off the next day. He said, well you could have paid it for, but this was some little thing that they would do. And I can say if he had been a White man, he'd have never had to stay in jail. He'd never been arrested. He just called him and told him, say, you got a check here. Come pick it up. I've known this to happen.
Roosevelt Cuffie: So these are the same. And back to my mother and father instruction and regards of White, they said, Well, we are here and they are here. Said they have their place, and we have ours. Said, but that don't make us any lesser than they there. So they had trial in the cell. They say, you don't have to get into trouble unless it's essential necessary. I said, defend yourself. They didn't want nobody to just beat on, but they wouldn't stand for that. And I think the White people knew that.And yet there was those that were fighting, and you just had to let them know that you didn't want to. [indistinct 00:06:53] trouble or have a fight. But if they sensed that you going to stand up for yourself, there some of the boys said around the summertime when you'd be [indistinct 00:07:13], they would see who would be the best man and stuff like that. Some of them would get angry but never nothing ever big come out of that.
Roosevelt Cuffie: And I have three brothers that was very good men and spent, and I had a cousin, didn't weigh 155 pounds, but I assure you, in his lifetime, if he got a hold to you, it would take two men to get him whatever he had. He had the grip in his hand. I never seen anyone that small had that grip. But once he caught anything you couldn't—one man—I never seen one man could shake it loose.
Tunga White: That reminds me you talking about [indistinct 00:07:58]. You Black, and you try to defend themselves [indistinct 00:08:17]. Did they rally around the people that something happened to the community and help them out or—
Roosevelt Cuffie: The way I see it, it feels a thing we never have control of. And when you look at the situation, that's what makes you feel. That was those that did what that would have a way out. And some would do it by just putting their life on the line, and say if I'm going to die, I'm going to die for a good cause. And I might have said just since I've been talking long, but I do know how I left here and to stand up for my [indistinct 00:09:09] where I worked to that on the base. I taken home legal style faith to defend for my family. I was public relation in the movement here. And I think the biggest headline that it was from the story, all the movement involved after so much had been done, mace had been sprayed on this particular day. And some of the organization and the vision phase, the belt buckles had been cut, and it was just almost unbelievable.
Roosevelt Cuffie: So as public relation, I released the news. I was one of those. So Benny had been locked up, and we went after this incident happened, Phil was so much among the organization. So when we got back to the center where we met at, I said, We got to live here. I said, So I'm going down to keep police office and let them know what they did that we still was going to have another month. So my mother came home and break, and it was about four of us. [indistinct 00:11:02].
Roosevelt Cuffie: We went our [indistinct 00:11:05], and they told us if we march that they would shoot us down, let our blood run down the street as if we was dog. But we had to alternate things. When we got back, we had told them why we had been, somebody had to keep the movement alive because we had to go and make speeches and collect whatever we could to keep the movement going. But what I'm—refer me, you just have to do what you have to do, and I really believed them when they said that they would shoot us down like dogs.
Roosevelt Cuffie: But if it had to be done, this was time for me to do it. So when I got back, they said, No. I said, Yeah. My brother said he wanted to go. I said, No. I'll go. So behind that there was three of us [indistinct 00:12:20], bricks, and little bit of cuffing myself. We left out and we said marching. And we saw the police car come. I was thinking of mine. I said, Well, you know what cause this is for. When they got there, they didn't [indistinct 00:12:44] really, other than Samuel said, Well, y'all stayed out as long as you could. My reply was to them. Somebody had to stand up for justice. So they locked us up.
Roosevelt Cuffie: The news went out [indistinct 00:13:07] march, and that kept it alive. And from that a lot of things was [indistinct 00:13:15]. A lot of things, even today, we pan and fight for. I don't mind saying this and don't care who know it. I know my phone was tapped, and it stayed tapped at least ten or twelve years after that.
Tunga White: [indistinct 00:13:37].
Roosevelt Cuffie: During the movement. I'm not for sure just what year. I could take the time and get it, but rather than [indistinct 00:13:48] year, I put it like this. I believe it was in early '60. I believe it was somewhere right there.
Tunga White: You think a lot of people have their phone tapped during the movement?
Roosevelt Cuffie: I do know. Yeah. It's quite a few, but some of them—well, they said that they could tell when they pick it up. You can tell. And people get your phone numbers that you don't know and pretend they hang up, and it don't be hung up. You understand what I'm saying? They have a way that they can listening on.
Tunga White: [indistinct 00:14:34].
Roosevelt Cuffie: I don't know what would be the greatest question for me to relate to, and this way because I don't want to accuse nobody of something. But I will say this. Your fisher in each city and town, they know what's going on. They just won't to admit it to it. And they, as a majority, whoever called the shots, and this is from the mayor now, they can stop anything, start up if they want to. There's a ways of doing it, and I've told them that, but they don't like for you to say that.
Roosevelt Cuffie: And I said to the president today, if he don't have the fear, he has the power to speak up for things that are unjust that he know. And the world knows, not only just the United States know or so unjust for Black still. There's a different level. And a lot of Blacks, you cannot tell them this, but I can't help but say experience wrote the book. When you experience and know these things. For instance, my house is paid for. Okay. There's a White man house don't cost half as much as mine. I can go and require for a $20,000 loan, and he'll ask me what collateral you have, and I'll tell him what it is and what have been appraised for. And I'll get denied of the loan, and the White man that don't have half as much as I am, he can get loan. That is today. Right on.
Roosevelt Cuffie: So what I'm saying is this, they can always say, it ain't me. It's not my bank. I have to go by these laws. See? But I grant you this. It ain't the law so much. It's who you know, and what they'll do for you first. So when you become a White man, and I say become a White man. If you turn every way they want you to turn, then you can get by what you want and [indistinct 00:17:22]. You see what I'm saying?
Tunga White: Yeah.
Roosevelt Cuffie: But if you stand on your own feet as an individual with dignity, they see you as a Black person, and they will deny you of your human rights by saying that this can't be done this way. And by the same token, I have got favored or I've seen other blacks could get favored, and that made her feel White. But I don't say this is just. I say if we're going to have democracy, let it be for all, not for color, not for who you are.
Roosevelt Cuffie: Yes. We need to recognize the law. Yes. We need recognize the mayor. But the voter elect, that's what they supposed be for the people, by the people, and for the people as a whole and not [indistinct 00:18:20]. So yeah, but it will be here a long time as far as man got to do with it because it's so have been embedded. It has been so stabilized that it's hard for you as a Black person to achieve.
Roosevelt Cuffie: There were few that do, but see, you don't need a few. You need it open for all. Then everybody have a chance to be somebody. Men would be somebody, but they don't have the opportunity and the chance. They're denied of—when we look back, the cost has been there. The price we're paid is still there, but what people don't realize, while we haven't accomplished more, it's not because we didn't want to. A lot of people say, Well you didn't want it. I can say, Yes, in some case because you didn't know how to want. You got to know how to want before have a reason.
Roosevelt Cuffie: They said, Well, you will have plenty of reasons. We still know we need more doctors, more lawyers. So we going to education school and college, but that's not all of it. And I'm referring the thing that I've experienced.
Roosevelt Cuffie: My son, he graduated from college, and this is what—see, they always got something to, for [indistinct 00:20:14]. Many jobs he applied for. One of the two situations was of this: you don't have that experience—
Tunga White: Or you're overqualified.
Roosevelt Cuffie: Or you're overqualified. Now how can this be just? We know the bottom line of that. If a person come in and have more qualification, then they become the aggressor in many ways that the other person can deny, cannot deny him achieving in his aggression. He become manager. He become owner. So you are more qualified. If I let you in here, okay, and not have an experience. So let's look at that. That explains itself. When you won't let me work—when you won't give me what I'm qualified for, why can't I get experience?
Tunga White: [indistinct 00:21:18].
Roosevelt Cuffie: And again, the jailhouse is not going to solve the problem here. They're going to cost the United States and whoever funding more the tax payer for Black and White. See. But when we come of a unity, then we can have that love that we can tear down many jails. What I mean—I mean literally tear them down and morally tear them down and socially tear them down, and we can do things that everybody can feel proud, but I can't see how the White man or the Black man can feel proud of it because we don't have the unity. I know—
Tunga White: I don't want to cut you off.
Roosevelt Cuffie: Go ahead.