Kwok, Pui Lan

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-	Thank you very much.	0:01
	If you could, I'd just like some background information.	0:03
	If you could say your name.	0:05
-	My name is Kwok Pui Lan.	0:08
-	Yes, and are you lay or clergy?	0:09
-	I am lay.	0:12
-	Yes, and denominational affiliation, if any?	0:13
-	I am Anglican.	0:16
-	Anglican.
	And when and where were you born?	0:18
-	I was born in 1952 in Hong Kong.	0:19
-	Mmmm.	0:22
	And where did you go to school?	0:24
	Graduate or of any school?	0:25
-	I went to the Chong Chi Theology Division	0:27
	at the Chinese University of Hong Kong for my undergrad,	0:30
	and also for my masters degrees.	0:34
	And then I pursued my Doctorate from Harvard Divinity School	0:36
	graduating in 1989.	0:40
-	Mmhmm, thank you.
	And how and when did you first become aware	0:45
	of feminist theology?	0:47
-	Um, that was back in the '70s.	0:49
	Because when I was an undergraduate, I had the fortune	0:51
	of having a visiting professor who, at that time,	0:55
	was studying for his Doctorate from Union in New York.	0:58
	And so he introduced the works of Mary Daly	1:03
	and Rose Mary Woods to me.	1:07
	Years later, when the three of us,	1:09
	this is Doctor Raymond Whitehead from Canada and I	1:12
	and Rose Mary, were all attending a conference,	1:16
	and then I told Rose Mary, I said,	1:19
	hey, this is Doctor Ray Whitehead,	1:22
	and Doctor Whitehead introduced your book to me.	1:25
	So that was a very good reunion.	1:29
-	Oh, yes!	1:31
	Do you recall, what was it about feminist, how did you react	1:34
	to feminist theology when you first encountered it?	1:37
-	I was very open to it for several reasons.	1:39
	One, personal reason, I came from a very large family,	1:42
	and a family of seven kids,	1:44
	and we have seven girls	1:48
	before the two boys arrived.	1:52
	Needless to say, I come from a patriarchal family,	1:54
	and my parents were waiting for the sons to be born.	1:57
	And so that was the first thing that I know,	2:01
	women must struggle for ourselves, because in our societies,	2:03
	boys and girls are not treated equally.	2:08
	And then the '70s was also a time of student protest,	2:12
	you recall, the demonstrations in Berkeley	2:16
	and also in New York.	2:19
	And it was also the same in Hong Kong.	2:20
	And during that time, and then we became concerned	2:23
	about social issues, and also,	2:26
	look at China, again, because China was then,	2:29
	during the Cultural Revolution time,	2:33
	advocating equality between the sexes.	2:36
	And that is why it was this wider social situation	2:39
	that prompted me to engage with feminist theology.	2:44
	So when I read Mary Daly and also Rose Mary Woods as well,	2:48
	I became aware that women in other parts of the world	2:52
	were beginning to articulate an alternative vision	2:56
	about God and also about the future of Christianity.	2:59
-	Mmhmm, thank you.	3:03
	That was helpful background.	3:07
	I'm wondering if you could talk about your relationship	3:08
	to the Re-imagining Community?	3:10
-	I had participated in the Re-Imagining Conference	3:12
	because I was one of the panelists on that panel	3:17
	that talks about re-imagining Jesus Christ.	3:22
	And, except for that, I did not have very close relationship	3:25
	to the community, because I know that afterwards,	3:28
	women have been meeting because of the backlash,	3:32
	but I did not have opportunities of participating	3:35
	in any of those events.	3:38
	I certainly was aware of the kind of controversy and debates	3:40
	that the conference had brought out in the churches.	3:44
-	Yes, now I know it's been quite a few years now.	3:49
	What are your recollections of that 1993 conference?	3:52
-	I think that, when we had the conference,	3:56
	we were in a mode that is very celebratory.	3:59
	That is, not only were the speakers great, and I recall	4:03
	the liturgy and also the variety of people there.	4:08
	And then they thought that women were gathering	4:13
	to imagine what the future of Christianity would look like.	4:16
	That is very challenging and interesting.	4:19
	So I did not perceive or forecast that there will be	4:24
	that kind of very strong reaction.	4:29
	And especially targeted at some of the speakers.	4:32
	For example, Delores Williams, who served	4:36
	on the same panel with me.	4:38
	So I think that, because of the backlash,	4:41
	that really heightened my awareness that the Church,	4:45
	at that time, in '93, are different,	4:49
	though we had been talking about	4:52
	inclusive language in the Church	4:54
	or feminist theology for that case.	4:56
	And the Church was not quite ready.	4:59
	Not only that, there was a very strong group of people	5:02
	who really criticized the conference and also wanted	5:06
	to censor, if not harass some of the speakers	5:11
	and also some of the organizers.	5:16
-	Were you directly affected by any of that?	5:19
-	I was not very affected for several reasons.	5:21
	Because I know that Delores Williams	5:24
	and the colleague from the Presbyterian Church	5:27
	who was also one of the organizers,	5:31
	they had been criticized much more severely.	5:33
	I think, for several reasons.	5:37
	I do not think the Episcopal Church was a heavy supporter	5:39
	of the conference, that is, not giving so much money	5:43
	or promoting it among the parishioners.	5:47
	That is one reason.	5:50
	And then so there was some, I think, publications	5:52
	in the Episcopal circles talking about	5:57
	the Re-Imagining Conference.	5:59
	But by and large, there was not as much	6:02
	criticism or discussion as in other denominations.	6:05
	I had only one incident that recalled that happens to me.	6:10
	After the Re-Imagining Conference, I was invited	6:14
	to lead a workshop in some place, I think, in New York.	6:17
	And then there was a reporter or whatever,	6:22
	from a conservative journal who came.	6:25
	Days later, I became aware that he came to sort of	6:28
	monitor or to check me out,	6:33
	what I was speaking at that workshop.	6:35
	So that was only one concern.	6:38
	So there were other colleagues within my school,	6:42
	Episcopal Divinity School, who also became aware	6:44
	of the controversy.	6:48
	So they asked me about it, and because my colleagues	6:49
	are much more open-minded, and then, at that time,	6:52
	pro-feminist, and so, they were saying that this	6:56
	is the more conservative wings of the Church	7:01
	trying to accuse the women who were speaking	7:04
	as either heretics or out of bounds.	7:07
	So they did not take that criticism very seriously.	7:12
	So in general, I did not have any particular,	7:16
	that is, harassment or the kind of criticism	7:20
	that some of my colleagues who participated,	7:25
	and who were speakers, they had experienced.	7:27
-	How would you account for that backlash?	7:31
	What do you think motivated it?	7:34
-	I think that's for several things.	7:36
	One, and some of the people might think	7:38
	that this is a women's gathering, and they're going to	7:42
	change the Christianity as they have come to know it.	7:45
	And this is always frightening, because this is not just	7:49
	about inclusive language, this is re-imagining	7:53
	what Christianity would be, or can become.	7:56
	So this might be one of the reasons.	8:01
	Secondly, I think some criticize the conference,	8:03
	especially, regarding the liturgy.	8:08
	Because in some of these liturgical expressions,	8:10
	there might be Sophia.	8:13
	And I recall that the pressing that was introduced	8:15
	by the native people, that talks about	8:19
	the coming of Sophia and then pressing us.	8:22
	And so I think some people, they criticized the conference	8:27
	as deviating from this traditional understanding of God.	8:31
	And instead, talking about the Sophia, or Goddess.	8:35
	So then, it is a gathering of women who want to subvert	8:39
	the Church by propagating a new doctrine,	8:43
	or a new understanding, using the feminine expression	8:46
	of the Divine, and they are not accustomed to it.	8:50
	So I think it has all these ramifications, and so	8:55
	then it stirred up peoples' anger and frustration.	8:58
	And some people who have not been there,	9:02
	they have just heard this hearsay, and thinking that	9:04
	this group of progressive women, they're just going too far.	9:08
	And I think that power may be an issue.	9:12
-	Could you say a little bit more about that,	9:17
	the power of women, or?	9:19
-	Yes, I think that because
	whenever women gather and want to reclaim our power,	9:22
	that is when we look at history, then we can see,	9:26
	there is always this counter force.	9:29
	Because they just cannot allow women to have their voices	9:34
	in the Church and more specifically,	9:39
	they do not want women to be theological subjects.	9:42
	That is, women are supposed to be subservient,	9:46
	or obedient, and we should be consumers of religious goods	9:49
	given by men, and we should not be the ones	9:54
	telling ourselves what we should believe,	9:56
	or what we should practice.	10:00
	So I think this subverting the traditional roles	10:02
	in the Church was very alarming	10:06
	to these more conservative people in the Church.	10:09
-	Yeah, thank you.	10:14
	What aspects of Re-Imagining were most significant	10:16
	to you and why?	10:18
-	I think that it is significant that we have leaders	10:20
	who work across the board together,	10:25
	and then to share our different perspectives	10:29
	and stretching our comfort zone.	10:33
	And that is one dimension.	10:35
	The other dimension, I think, I would say,	10:38
	will be the holistic experience at the conference.	10:40
	Meaning that I recall at the opening ceremony,	10:45
	that is, one of these plenaries, that we have	10:49
	these white papers, and then we have crayons,	10:54
	and then we can draw, or there are those little eggs	10:59
	that you shake, you know?	11:03
	And then, so, you can respond in multiple ways.	11:05
	Not just purely listening.	11:08
	And you can also sing, there are also rituals	11:12
	that you can engage, and so it is not just about the head.	11:14
	It is also about the body.	11:18
	And so I had learned from that experience.	11:21
	When, last year, I taught a course on Eros sexuality	11:24
	and the spirit,	11:29
	so then, in the beginning, I also then created something	11:30
	that is similar, a mini-version.	11:34
	So then they can draw and then each class, they can pick up	11:37
	a musical instrument,	11:41
	and then they can do	11:44
	their little, create.	11:49
	So this is from that class.	11:52
	And so then, now, they did, they made	11:54
	all these wonderful things, and then, so,	11:56
	that is multi-sensory.	11:58
-	Yes!
	And how did the students respond to that?	12:01
-	I think they responded very well!	12:03
	And because we are talking about Eros,	12:06
	I said Eros should be expressed in multiple ways.	12:08
	Not just, "I speak, you listen."	12:11
	And then, so, they engage, and then in their journals,	12:15
	they have to write their journals,	12:18
	I encouraged them to compose poetry, to draw pictures,	12:20
	to take photos, because I said, again,	12:24
	the Spirit works in many different ways,	12:28
	there are many modalities of learning, and you should use	12:31
	the medium that you feel most comfortable with.	12:34
	I used that because I was reminded	12:38
	of the Re-Imagining Conference, because last fall,	12:41
	we had a visiting proctor scholar.	12:45
	So she was with the Presbyterian Church.	12:50
	She was hired after this Imagining Conference,	12:54
	because there were people fired, right?	12:58
	So she was hired, and then,	13:01
	in her job, she had to sort of deal with the aftermath.	13:03
	So in her sermon, she talks about her own journey,	13:09
	and how she was in that situation,	13:12
	and then talk about her own work.	13:16
	And so then I was reminded of, oh!	13:21
	At the Re-Imagining Conference.	13:25
	So I said, what was I most impressed by at the conference?	13:27
	And then I said, oh, it was what we have learned	13:32
	in that was that way we have engaged our full bodily self.	13:35
	And so I thought, in teaching this Eros class,	13:39
	I must introduce a little bit of that.	13:42
	In some years back, when I was teaching	13:46
	the class on Christology,	13:48
	I also asked the students to listen to the tapes,	13:51
	because our library had the full set of the tapes.	13:54
	And so sometimes they also listened to what happened.	13:58
	And then, because some of them might have heard	14:03
	about this Re-Imagining Conference.	14:06
	So I think some of those things that I have learned,	14:09
	the kind of fellowship, the kind of liturgical expression,	14:12
	the kind of multiplicity in terms of learning modalities,	14:16
	I used in some of my teaching.	14:21
-	Oh, that's really wonderful to hear.	14:24
	These questions might be related, so you can choose	14:28
	which you respond to.	14:32
	But, did your,	14:35
	your involvement in Re-Imagining changed your perspective	14:37
	on feminist theology and/or the church.	14:40
	And it sounds like it made you aware that the church	14:42
	is more resistant.	14:44
-	Yes.
	I especially recall that Delores Williams was challenged	14:45
	because she was really bold in saying that,	14:49
	in her writings too, that she did not think	14:53
	that the kind of traditional atonement theories	14:56
	are helpful for men or for women.	14:59
	And that she insists that this Christ,	15:02
	that is dripping blood, this Christ portrayed	15:06
	as a victim, certainly,	15:10
	is not the only way we can think about atonement.	15:14
	And in her presentation she also was insisting,	15:17
	it is not the death, but the life and ministry of Jesus	15:22
	that liberates, that saves.	15:26
	And I think many people did not find that	15:29
	within the traditional framework of atonement theory.	15:32
	And insisted that she was heretical	15:37
	and out of the parameters or the kind of diversity	15:40
	we can accept as Christians.	15:45
	So I think that some of these issues,	15:48
	or some of those people, some of the things	15:51
	that people were concerned, that prompted me to think	15:55
	more deeply about the meaning of atonement,	15:58
	the meaning of the cross,	16:01
	and then why people have this kind of	16:04
	obsession in thinking about	16:09
	the suffering of Christ helps.	16:12
	And certainly, we also had a plenary by Rita Nakashima Brock	16:15
	who argues against this more traditional	16:19
	understanding of atonement.	16:22
	So in my own work, in my post-colonial theology,	16:24
	I began to be much more aware	16:28
	of the range of options the feminist theologians,	16:32
	including the womanists,	16:36
	that they have portrayed about Christ,	16:38
	and also the different theories about atonement.	16:40
-	I don't know if you remember this,	16:44
	but you were at that panel with Dolores Williams.	16:47
-	Yeah.	16:49
-	Do you remember
	thinking at that time that this was going to erupt	16:51
	the way that it did?	16:53
-	No, I must say that,
	because I, even at that time, knew the work	16:57
	of Dolores Williams.	17:00
	So for me, it was not as shocking.	17:02
	And not only that,	17:05
	but I think that there are people who agree with her.	17:08
	Because there is also the subjective theory of atonement.	17:12
	Basically, it's not what Christ has accomplished	17:15
	outside us, it is Christ's model that prompted us	17:20
	to be followers of Him, and so that we will be	17:25
	as loving and caring and compassionate as Jesus.	17:29
	So then within, even, the so-called mainstream	17:34
	of Christianity, you do not just have	17:37
	that gruesome sacrifice of "Jesus atones".	17:40
	There are also other theories.	17:44
	So then, for me, it was not shocking,	17:46
	because I knew her work before then,	17:49
	and also, I think that there are other people	17:51
	within the Christian circles who think, no,	17:54
	it is Jesus' love as a model for us.	17:57
	Since 19th Century a lot of liberal Christianity	18:00
	talks about that.	18:04
	The ritual,	18:08
	and others, they also talk about the same thing.	18:10
	And so I do not think that it is completely off-the-wall.	18:13
	But there might be people who have heard this	18:17
	for the first time.	18:19
	Who think that, wow, in the Church,	18:21
	it's always the suffering and the blood of Christ,	18:23
	especially those from traditions	18:27
	that emphasize Jesus' sacrifice.	18:29
	Then they think, oh, without Jesus' sacrifice	18:32
	there will not be atonement for you.	18:35
	So I think that there might be people	18:38
	who would find that very jarring.	18:39
	But for me, I did not think it was completely off-the-wall,	18:42
	and therefore, I did not expect	18:48
	that kind of backlash against her.	18:50
	Because you'll recall that, oh, there were people	18:53
	that criticized her, and said that Union	18:55
	should not hire her,	18:56
	she should not be a professor in theology,	18:58
	because she really did not believe	19:01
	in what Christianity's saying.	19:03
-	That's right, yes.	19:06
	What do you think is the greatest legacy,	19:09
	now that you look back on it,	19:10
	the greatest legacy of the Re-Imagining Community?	19:12
-	I think that, to have a group of women that continue	19:14
	to meet and then to work and then to say to the Church	19:18
	that this Re-Imagining Conference is not a one-time thing.	19:23
	Because, it is a symbol that women really want	19:27
	to do our own theology, and to have our voices heard.	19:30
	And then, periodically, this group of women	19:34
	will then, I think, produce pamphlets or bulletins	19:36
	or literature or resources to keep on	19:41
	with the work, I think that is very important.	19:45
	Because as you know, now, feminism is even a bad word	19:47
	in colleges!	19:53
-	Exactly, yes.
-	Many young women will say, "No, to call yourself feminist	19:56
	"is so outdated, this is our parents'	19:59
	"or grandparents' generation.	20:03
	"This is all gone, we are much more liberated."	20:05
	I think my daughter belongs to that.	20:09
	When she was a teenager, two things she will not	20:11
	discuss with me.	20:14
	One was feminism, one was theology.	20:15
	Why?	20:19
	Because, she said, "You talk about this all the time."	20:21
	Because of the teenage rebellion.	20:24
-	(laughing) Yes!	20:26
-	And then!
	She thought, okay, feminism belongs to my generation.	20:28
	But then, different incidents change her mind.	20:33
	When she was a teenager, one summer,	20:36
	she went to an interview for a job in a store	20:38
	that sells these groceries.	20:42
	And then they said, oh, you are a woman,	20:45
	you cannot lift the heavy boxes.	20:47
	So they didn't hire her.	20:49
	Then, she said, "Oh, wow, it is not all equal, right?	20:51
	"It is not that my parents' generation,"	20:56
	now that she experienced that.	20:58
	Now, she is a mother of two kids.	21:00
	And then she just posts on Facebook, "Oh, wow,	21:04
	"it's difficult to juggle having two kids	21:07
	"and sending both of them to daycare before my work.	21:10
	"I woke up last night, yesterday, at 4 a.m.," okay?	21:14
	Her husband, my son-in-law, helps a lot.	21:20
	But still, you have this idea that as mothers	21:24
	you have to do more to take care of your kids.	21:28
	So then, I think, when they have experienced	21:31
	the kind of difficulties, if not discrimination,	21:34
	as a woman, then they think feminism may not be	21:38
	their grandmother or their mother's problem.	21:40
	That they will face this glass ceiling	21:45
	or all the things that women experience	21:47
	as a working parent.	21:50
	So I think that, by keeping this up,	21:53
	by saying that feminism is not dead,	21:57
	not only not dead, that the Church had a long way to go.	21:59
	And recently I had a conversation with my students	22:04
	about Pope Francis.	22:09
	Because Pope Francis just visited the United States,	22:11
	and my students, they listened to	22:14
	his speech to the Congress,	22:17
	and then they were mesmerized by his visit.	22:19
	And then suddenly, Pope Francis had changed a lot	22:23
	in terms of putting out a new face,	22:28
	a new kind of direction for the Catholic Church.	22:31
	But many of my colleagues within the Catholic Church	22:35
	are saying, even though Pope Francis may be very vocal	22:38
	about the climate change or about social justice,	22:42
	had already issued statements,	22:46
	or his work on this.	22:49
	But during his tenure,	22:53
	he may not be able to change	22:57
	the kind of discrimination against women.	22:59
	And if Pope Francis is really keen	23:03
	on changing the situation of the poor,	23:06
	without changing women's situation,	23:10
	then the poor, because the majority of the world's poor,	23:14
	they are women, and then Pope Francis	23:18
	is not dealing with the root problems.	23:22
	So I believe that we still have a long way to go,	23:26
	both in the Mainline and the Catholic churches.	23:30
	And so, I think the Re-Imagining Community carrying on	23:33
	with the work, and that is, stimulating discussions	23:38
	or organizing events to promote a kind of continuing	23:42
	discussion and dialogue will be very helpful	23:47
	for the health of the Church community.	23:51
-	Thank you.	23:56
	We are developing a Re-Imagining website,	23:58
	and I'm wondering if you have thoughts	24:02
	about who would benefit from it and why,	24:04
	and how could they find out about it,	24:08
	any thoughts about that?	24:10
-	There are several websites	24:12
	that might have the same purpose,	24:14
	that is, to promote this conversation,	24:18
	that I know of.	24:20
	One is the Journal of Feminist Studies in Religion,	24:21
	their website, and now they have some blogs,	24:24
	because I know that Mary Hunt	24:27
	and my colleague, Grace Kim,	24:31
	sometimes they write for that.	24:34
	And then the other is the,	24:37
	one that is called Religion and Feminism.	24:39
	And then that one was founded	24:41
	by a group of younger feminists.	24:45
	So every day, I think, they would have a person writing.	24:49
	Some years back they asked me to be a contributing blogger.	24:53
	I said, I just don't have time.	24:58
	But I have read some of their blogs,	25:00
	and these younger women, they're doing quite a good job.	25:03
	So, then, the Re-Imagining website	25:07
	can also try to see, in what way	25:11
	are the materials in that website	25:14
	can compliment what we have in the other two.	25:17
	First, the other two are not for Christians only.	25:21
	Because they are the studies of religion,	25:25
	and they welcome people who are Buddhist,	25:28
	and who are Muslim, and who are Post-Christian,	25:30
	and who belongs to the Goddess movement to contribute.	25:35
	So then, the Re-Imagining Conference can be particularly	25:42
	for Christians, because originally,	25:45
	it was mostly attended by Christians.	25:48
	So they can talk about particular issues facing the Church,	25:51
	and what are the frontiers of some of the work,	25:55
	and how we can share ideas of what other churches are doing	25:59
	and the success stories, as well as,	26:04
	what are some of the avenues for continuing the work?	26:08
	So I think that it has a particular role to play.	26:12
-	Mmhmm, thank you.	26:16
	One last question, before I ask you	26:18
	if there's anything else you want to add.	26:19
	I appreciate what you're saying about where we are now,	26:21
	and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about	26:26
	what Re-Imagining should look like now?	26:29
	What should it talk about, what should its concerns be?	26:32
-	I think that, at that time,	26:35
	we were more interested in re-imagining the categories	26:37
	of Christianity, and that is why we organized	26:41
	a conference in that way,	26:44
	re-imagining God, I think, re-imagining Christ,	26:46
	and then, maybe re-imagining something else.	26:49
	So it is more according to the Christian categories.	26:52
	I think this focus is still needed.	26:56
	Because, I think it is an ongoing theological reformulation	26:58
	and it's continuing work.	27:05
	But then, I think some new directions,	27:08
	that is, issues that we face today,	27:12
	for example, climate change is a big thing.	27:16
	And then, not only that, now, with what has happened	27:19
	in France last week, in Paris,	27:24
	and then how can women in the Church,	27:27
	or Christian communities, contribute to a dialogue	27:30
	with people of other faiths.	27:33
	And then, the whole notion of peace-building	27:35
	and peace-keeping.	27:37
	So some of these more current issues	27:38
	should be in the purview.	27:41
	I'm not saying that these are all left out.	27:43
	I'm just saying that, given, now, we have come to a stage,	27:47
	that is, the polarization between the so-called	27:51
	"western" nations and the Muslim nations,	27:55
	became so profound,	27:58
	so I think that more effort needs to be on	28:00
	how can we build a coalition across religious boundaries	28:03
	to talk about peace and justice?	28:08
	So I think those are very important issues now.	28:13
	Maybe more urgent than in 1992.	28:16
-	Yeah, yes.	28:19
	Is there anything we haven't discussed	28:21
	that you would like to say?	28:22
-	I think that, how to, then, generate interest	28:24
	among the younger women would be important.	28:29
	Because I know, I observe one thing.	28:32
	Because many of my students, that they are interested	28:34
	in the Emergent Movement.	28:38
	That is, as you know, this Emergent Movement	28:40
	is forming new communities.	28:45
	Not just traditional Mainline Church communities.	28:47
	But this may be students, it may be professionals,	28:52
	it may be younger people together at home,	28:56
	they gather in bars, they gather in other arenas	28:59
	to talk about their faith.	29:04
	Because all the Mainline denominations are suffering	29:06
	from membership decline.	29:10
	And this Re-Imagining is already ahead of its time,	29:12
	that is, you imagine what would happen.	29:18
	I did not remember, I think we might have	29:21
	a Re-Imagining Church or something like that,	29:24
	but I did not remember that particular session now.	29:26
	And so I think much more can be done or can be said	29:31
	in this new form of ecclesial communities	29:35
	that are emerging not only in the United States,	29:40
	but also in Britain.	29:43
	They call themselves First Expression.	29:45
	And surprisingly, in both situations, there is certainly	29:49
	a revival of the monastic expression of Christianity,	29:54
	and a more disciplined weight of prayer	29:58
	and then, and also, it is not so much tied to denomination	30:02
	and so this kind of new expression,	30:06
	or new ecclesial communities, would be something,	30:10
	I hope, the Re-Imagining community will also	30:14
	have conversation or dialogue with.	30:17
	Certainly, many younger women, they are very attracted	30:20
	by this, because it is less hierarchical,	30:23
	and then,	30:26
	there is no clear boundaries between what is sacred	30:27
	and what is profane.	30:32
	And then as laypeople they can participate more fully.	30:34
	And also, they are more rooted in the community.	30:37
	And I think that this might be something	30:42
	that the Re-Imagining Community might be interested	30:45
	to explore deeper, or to have more conversations	30:48
	with these younger folks.	30:52
-	Excellent, thank you so much!	30:55

Item Info

Title:

Kwok, Pui Lan

Date:

November 16, 2015

Creator:

Jordon, Sherry E. (Sherry Elaine)

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Re-Imagining Collection

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Re-Imagining Collection, 1993-2023

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Oral History Interviews

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f5943cec2ad079f102e4e34457303c2d
reimagining
duke:461834
ark:/87924/r4rx95g99
0614307e-1d3d-4379-bb44-c914e473c5a4

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Kwok, Pui Lan

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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