William Clement interview recording, 1993 May 28

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Bill Crumpton	Testing one, two, three. This is an interview with Mr. Bill Clement.	0:01
Bill Crumpton	Mr. Clement, are you originally from Durham?	0:09
William Alexander Clement	No, I'm not. I was born in Charleston, South Carolina, May the 6th, 1912. I lived in Charleston for a long period of time. In fact, my early life, my mother was a native of Charleston. Her name was Sadie Clement. And my father was Arthur John Howard Clement, who was a native of North Carolina. He came to Charleston in 1906. He graduated from Johnson C Smith in 1905 and started working with North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance Company. North Carolina Mutual had just been licensed to do business in South Carolina in 1904. When he came to Charleston, he was single and he married my mother. She was a clerk in the office that he established in Charleston. And they married in 1908. And they had three children. I have one brother and one sister. Both are now deceased.	0:12
William Alexander Clement	My early education was at the Catholic school at Charleston, in Charleston, and I went there until the eighth grade and then went to Avery Institute. Now, that's a very interesting secondary high school. It was founded by the American Missionary Association. The American Missionary Association has a tremendous history, and that's another subject altogether, but they were responsible for establishing a lot of schools in the South, not only secondary schools, but also colleges. For example, Talladega College in Talladega, Alabama was established by the American Missionary Association. Atlanta University in Atlanta, Georgia by the American Missionary Association.	1:12
William Alexander Clement	Fisk University. Tougaloo in Mississippi. And many other schools. So, they had Avery Institute was founded right after the signing of the—well, right after the end of the Civil War. My mother, incidentally, finished Avery Institute in 1891. I have a program of her graduating class. So, after I finished Avery Institute, I went to Talladega and spent four years there. So, therefore, I'm the product, really, of a private education background: the Catholic school, the American Missionary Association at Avery Institute, and Talladega College and in Talladega, Alabama. So, that's my educational background.	1:59
Bill Crumpton	Do you remember your grandparents at all?	2:52
William Alexander Clement	I remember my grandparents particularly on my father's side. My grandfather was Alexander Clement, Rufus Alexander Clement. He was born in 1850 a slave. My grandmother was Emma Ellis Clement. She was born in 1857 following the Emancipation Proclamation and the ending of the war, they migrated from Hickory, North Carolina, which is in the western part of North Carolina, to a little town called Cleveland in Rowan County. Salisbury is the county seat. In 1874, he bought a track of land in Cleveland, North Carolina, which is in Rowan County. That was our home place. That property was, what, 13 acres of land. How he paid for it and acquired it, I really don't know, but I have the, in my file, in my possession, the deed that he assigned. He did not sign. He marked X and his wife X. But he worked as a farmer in Cleveland in Rowan County.	2:54
William Alexander Clement	And then in the winter times, he went to Pennsylvania and worked in the coal mines. He actually paid for this property and deeded a part of it to the Board of Education of Rowan County, and they established a school for Blacks or newly emancipated slaves, and that was done about 1875 or '76. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents. I used to go up there in the summertime and work with them on the farm following the graduation of my father from Biddle University, which was the original name of Johnson C. Smith. He bought 100 acre land, 100 acre farm located in a little town called Mount Ulla, Bear Poplar, which is between Cleveland and Mooresville.	4:09
William Alexander Clement	And so, we spent a great deal of time up there, my brother and I, working on the farm. We got there in time to lay by the crops and particularly saw wood. He had a nice timber and he furnished logs and firewood for many of the leading White persons in the community of Cleveland. I plowed and fed the hogs and milked the cow. Had a wonderful experience. And I did that until I was about 15 years of age and then I started working with my father in the Charleston District as an agent in the summer for North Carolina Mutual Life Insurance.	5:00
William Alexander Clement	My grandfather was a unusual person. He didn't have any formal education, but he was a good businessman. He was a religious man. He was a ruling elder in the Presbyterian church for about 65 years. In fact, he deeded a portion of the land to the Presbyterian church, Allen Temple, and that church is still in existence. It's on the end of our property in Cleveland. And that was in 1905, that happened, and he was there. I went to services at Allen Temple. They met once a month at the Presbyterian church. Another Sunday they met at the AME church and they moved around and then came back. When the services were going to be held at Allen Temple, which was my family's church, my grandmother started preparing and cooking on Thursday for Sunday, and the spread was on our front lawn there in Cleveland adjacent to the church. My grandmother operated a kind of a cleaning place in her home. First time I've seen spots removed with kerosene and magnesium salt. You ever seen that happen?	5:38
Bill Crumpton	Oh, that's a new one on me.	6:59
William Alexander Clement	Right. Anyway, she used to get the spots out of the pants and coats and so forth, and you had to hang it up outside overnight so the odor could get out of it. On Saturdays, the men would come by for their suits and for the laundry and so forth. My job was to take it from the house to the cars in the front yard. So, I remember them very well. My grandmother on my mother's side, I remember her very well. She died when I was nine years of age. She was living with us in Charleston. And I remembered her. But I know a little bit more about my paternal grandparents.	7:02
Bill Crumpton	What type of crops did your grandfather grow on his farm?	7:39
William Alexander Clement	Cotton, primarily. Potatoes particularly. But cotton was the big crop at that particular time, if I recall. And wheat. If I remember, we would take cotton after we picked it to the gin to be ginned. And then the wheat, if you have a mill, have it grind for flour. On the property, we had a whale house, a wheat house where we would—hogs, we had hogs. And they would kill hogs and store in the whale house. The whale house had bins where we'd put the wheat and so forth and then we'd get the flour. But he had a very interesting business at that time. And really, the family, he supported the family from the produce that he raised on the farm.	7:43
William Alexander Clement	My grandmother had a beautiful grape arbor, also a vegetable garden where she got all of the produce that she needed for household eating and so forth. Sunday mornings was a big day because we had to go into the parlor, they used to call it, to pray. It was a family prayer. Then come into the kitchen, the dining room to have breakfast and so forth. But they had a lot of utilities that they used around—Milk, clabber, churn—You know anything about churning milk?	8:35
Bill Crumpton	Yeah. Making butter.	9:13
William Alexander Clement	Absolutely. Buttermilk. So, it was a wonderful experience. It really helped me to get focused, I think, as far as my work habits are concern because he was a good disciplinarian, and when he told you to do something, he meant for you to do it.	9:16
Bill Crumpton	Oh, yes. Can you remember your childhood in Charleston going to school?	9:30
William Alexander Clement	Yes. I had some very good friends in Charleston, and one of the experiences that I had in Charleston was at Avery Institute was about two or three miles from where I lived on Rutledge Avenue. And we used to have to walk by all the schools, the public schools, the White schools, going down to Avery, which was really—I didn't maybe realize how distasteful it was, but I knew it was wrong. The block in which we lived on 517 Rutledge Avenue where I was born was across the street from the city playground. The Mitchell Park. Charleston was a little unusual in that Blacks in Charleston lived almost all over the city of Charleston back then at the turn of the century. And it meant that in our block, we were the only Black family in that block. So, everybody else could go across the street to the park except me because I was Black. And that was very disgraceful. I remember when the theatre, they were showing the first talkie, Al Jolson and the Black-something. I can't remember that in detail but anyhow—	9:35
Bill Crumpton	The Minstrel, I think, was the name of it.	10:53
William Alexander Clement	Huh?	10:55
Bill Crumpton	I think the name of that was The Minstrel Show or something of that nature.	10:56
William Alexander Clement	Yeah. But anyhow, it was a talkie. We wanted to go down to the theater to see this first talking movie. And we did. It was segregated. And that was very distasteful. I don't think I went back many times. Segregation was pretty strong in Charleston. Although. If you read the history of Charleston, there were many free Negroes in Charleston. In fact, I just got through reading a book by a man who was born in Charleston. His father's name was Jones. I can't think of the first name. But he owned a hotel in Charleston, and his became very famous. A lot of people traveling throughout the country came to live at the Jones Hotel.	10:59
William Alexander Clement	He had three sons and they went to—One of the boys, Edward Jones, went to Amherst. He did not return to Charleston because I understand if you left Charleston as a free person, when you came back into the city, you had to come back in as a slave during that period. So, Charleston was an unusual town, but it was a very deeply segregated, and I grew up under a segregated system, which was very distasteful.	11:47
Bill Crumpton	Now, you said you were the only Black family in the neighborhood, and you mean that the neighborhood was integrated?	12:16
William Alexander Clement	We had a block. The block was integrated. We were the only Black family in that block between—	12:28
Bill Crumpton	This was about what year?	12:29
William Alexander Clement	This was around 1912, 1914, 1915. It stayed like that until the early part of the 1920s. And another family moved next door to us. I remember they moved, that was in the '20s, the Leslie family. But for a long period of time, we got along very well, my mother and father did, with the neighbors, but no social interaction, or any social interaction. But it was deeply segregated.	12:33
Bill Crumpton	That's interesting.	13:06
William Alexander Clement	Now, another thing in Charleston, now, the Blacks who worked for the White people in Charleston, they were the persons that you got your messages and to the White people. I remember a man by the name of Sam Faber. He was a butler for one of the leading families in Charleston. And if young people want to get a job in the school system, or if you want to get some favor done that would require some political pull, if you told Mr. Faber while he was working around the house and talking with Mr. Stoney and some of the leaders and so forth, he would tell him, say, "By the way, a friend of mine wants to finish school and he wants to get a job, or she wants to get a job." "Sam, write that name down and give it to me and see what we can do about it."	13:08
William Alexander Clement	But that was the way you really dealt with the White people in Charleston as far as getting advancement, getting political favors, and so forth. You never went direct. You had to go through someone else who had a connection, and the usual connection was the fact that he was a servant in the home.	13:58
Bill Crumpton	Do you remember some of the things that you did for recreation growing up?	14:24
William Alexander Clement	Oh, I had some very fine playmates. Carl MacFool, Frank DeCosta. Eric Carr eventually became an outstanding doctor who practiced in Charleston. Frank DeCosta became an outstanding educator. He worked at Avery Institute. He became principal of Avery at one time. He went to Lincoln University in Chester, Chester, Pennsylvania. He became an outstanding athlete. Herman Robinson, who became an outstanding social work in New York. We grew together in Charleston.	14:27
William Alexander Clement	And what I didn't learn how to do in Charleston, and most of them did, and that was how to swim. Because we used to go down to the swimming hole. But they would learn how to swim. And I was always fearful of the water. We had a good baseball team. We had a nice place. We played baseball. We played baseball, basketball. We had a basketball court in my backyard. I can recall some of the neighbors, not neighbors, but some of my friends had—Actually, courts, I'm talking about a rim, but usually was a rim from a fruit—	15:04
Bill Crumpton	Fruit basket?	15:39
William Alexander Clement	Fruit basket. And that was our basketball rim. So, we had a lot of activities we created ourselves, and we had a good time and certainly had involvement in athletics and recreation. But we could not participate in any of the organized recreation facilities in the city of Charleston during that particular period, which was wrong and distasteful.	15:40
Bill Crumpton	Was there any place in town that you weren't allowed to go either by your parents or-	16:13
William Alexander Clement	Were not allowed to go?	16:19
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	16:20
William Alexander Clement	I don't know, but we went to programs and things of that nature. We went with our parents, my parents. My father was very much interested in the YMCA, and the YMCA was really a big outlet. The YMCA under his leadership sponsored concerts. For example, I can remember Marin Anderson, I can remember Will Hayes. I can remember Hazel Scott. I can remember the William Singers, the William Jubilee Singers, the Johnson Brothers. Now, I'm listing some names that I haven't recalled in 50 years. But they came to Charleston under the auspices of the YMCA, and they gave their performances at the churches in Charleston. There was several churches. Morris Street Baptist Church, Morris Brown. Morris Brown is a very historical church. You need to check that out because—What's the fellows name where they had the uprising? Denmark Vesey.	16:25
Bill Crumpton	Vesey.	17:38
William Alexander Clement	Right. That was its name. That church is still in existence in Charleston on Morris Street. Emanuel. Those are the big churches and these performances, and these artists up here. My father was really responsible for a lot of those programs. My mother was very much involved with the YWCA. I can recall going with her to YWCA meetings. She became chairman of the YWCA board, and she would take me as a youngster. You know, we didn't have any babysitters at that time, and give me a book to read or something to color while she was in the meeting. They were very much involved. I don't recall of any restrictions. Think about it, in those days, they weren't many places you could go without proper supervision. So, I don't recall of any place where I just could not go.	17:39
Bill Crumpton	Okay. I remember you said you went to Avery Institute.	18:37
William Alexander Clement	Oh yes.	18:40
Bill Crumpton	After you finished Avery, where did you go?	18:41
William Alexander Clement	I went to Talladega. I finished Avery Institute in 1930. And I was really chose to go to Talladega because of the teachers that taught at Avery. Most of them came from Fisk, from Talladega, Atlanta University. And there were several teachers who taught me my senior year who were graduates of Talladega. Ruby Conwell, for example. She's still living. Incidentally. She's in her 90s living in Charleston. She married Dr. Conwell, and he died many, many years ago, but she continues to live there. There was a lady by the name of Anna Lauren Derek Hart who was a graduate of Talladega. Maud Smith, who was a graduate of Fisk University. Clarence Sharp was a teacher that taught me in high school who was a graduate of Talladega. Andrew Simmons, who was a graduate of Fisk University, was a dynamic teacher. So, I was influenced by going to Talladega because of the teachers.	18:44
William Alexander Clement	And I went to Talladega in the fall of 1930, spent four years there, majored in mathematics. I wanted to go into business, but they had it published in the catalog that they had a business department. But after I got there, they found out they didn't have it. They planned to put one in, but they never did put it in. And I remember my father wanted to suggest that if I wanted to change, go to Morehouse, which they had a strong business—Fisk University had a very strong business—But by that time, I'd fallen in love with a young lady at Talladega so I didn't want to leave. I stayed there. (laughs)	19:45
Bill Crumpton	While you were in college going back and forth from home, did you have any problems with segregated transportation? Trains, buses?	20:22
William Alexander Clement	Oh yes. We went by train, on the segregated train out of Charleston. We went from Charleston to Atlanta, and then from Atlanta we switched and went to Anderson, Alabama. Anderson was located about 20 miles north of Talladega. So, these were segregated trains, and everything was Jim Crow. We were operating then under Plessy v. Ferguson, the decision that came down in 1896, which incidentally, that was a result of a train ride by a mulatto going into Louisiana. And that case went to Supreme Court and Supreme Court ruled that you could separate Blacks and Whites and races, but long as the facilities were equal. The Supreme Court stated in 1954, the Brown case rule that was not true. You couldn't have it separate and equal. So, yes, I'm very familiar with segregation on transportation.	20:30
Bill Crumpton	Can you remember the appearance of some of the Jim Crow cars?	21:39
William Alexander Clement	Remember what?	21:43
Bill Crumpton	Can you remember the appearance of some of the Jim Crow cars—	21:44
William Alexander Clement	Oh, they were—	21:47
Bill Crumpton	—conditioned they were in?	21:48
William Alexander Clement	Bad. They were right next to the usually the baggage, because you had the engine, the baggage cars, and then the car segregated for Blacks. And then behind that was for the Whites, and then the Pullman cars on the end. At that time, they were using coal and no air condition. You put the windows up to get some air. All of a sudden black smoke and so forth came into the car. It was very unsatisfactory. But then, everything is relative. You couldn't compare it with air condition of cleanliness and so forth. But it was very unsatisfactory.	21:50
William Alexander Clement	But we endured it because it was necessary. My attitude on segregation has always been things that you had to do to advance yourself to make yourself a better person, an individual, then you have to accept it even though you dislike it. Riding on the bus, for example, trolley car, anything, education, you had to accept it because that was all available. All available. And when I got to Talladega and at, well, at the Avery Institute, you had White teachers and Black because they were private schools and they were missionary school started by the congregational church. So, the same thing is true. A lot of my teachers at Talladega were New Englanders who came down from New England to teach and to work with these young Black, energetic, bright young people, giving them an opportunity to go.	22:30
William Alexander Clement	So, then, the campus, even though it was located in Alabama, but Talladega was almost an island unto itself where you had this integrated community where the faculty—president of Talladega was a White man. His name was Sumner. And following Dr. Sumner was Gallagher. I was elected president of my freshman class and remained president for each year while I was there until I became a senior and the elected president of the student body. In fact, the president of the senior class was the president automatically of the student body.	23:26
William Alexander Clement	So, I was really involved with the selection of Gallagher when he became president of Talladega. I'll never forget that experience. We had to go to chapel. We had to go to religious services. In fact, we had a rule book. If you missed your seat, you were marked absent and you were subject to any sort of disciplinary action because you did not attend religious services. But going to Talladega was a wonderful experience because it gave me an opportunity to expose myself to, really, persons regardless of race, of color.	24:09
Bill Crumpton	What were some of the things that you did recreation or entertainment while you were—?	24:45
William Alexander Clement	At Talladega?	24:54
Bill Crumpton	Right.	24:54
William Alexander Clement	Well, I got involved in football. Well, I say with modesty, I was very good at football. I was elected and have my letter as a center. I played the all Southern—Talladega College was a member of what was known as the Southern League Conference there. We played Clark, Atlanta University, Morehouse, Tuskegee, Bama State. Very good school. In fact, Tuskegee was the national champion during that period for many, many years. South Carolina State. So, I was a varsity football player, that's number one.	24:56
William Alexander Clement	I was also involved in the little theatre. We had a little theatre group. Ms. Voorhees was our teacher. We put on plays and usually I played mostly the leading part. I had a young lady who always played the opposite role. Her name was Elaine Bethel. Gosh, I haven't recalled that name in 40, 50 years. I can see right now. She was a very good actress. I did not participate in the choir. I did not participate in varsity basketball, but I played what they call intermural basketball. And we had a nice gym.	25:33
William Alexander Clement	And I never did learn how to swim at Talladega, although it was a requirement. But I had an incomplete and physical ed up until the Friday before I graduated. The rule was before you could graduate from Talladega, you had to swim the length of the swimming pool, and I never did learn how to swim. So, the rule was if I jumped in, they would pull me the length, and that's what really happened. My parents were there on Friday for commencement on that Sunday, Monday, and the physical ed teacher had his rule book, and when they pulled me the length, he removed the I and I became a, counted for graduation. So, those were some of the extracurricular activities that I engaged in at Talladega.	26:14
Bill Crumpton	Did you ever go into the nearest town?	26:59
William Alexander Clement	Well, the nearest town was Anderson, Anderson, Alabama. I had a very good friend who came to Talladega from Anderson, and we would go up there periodically and visit with his parents. They were fine people. The name was Charlie McCaroll. Birmingham, Alabama was about 50 miles south of Talladega, and we went over there to some recreational activities. Montgomery was about 120 miles about southwest of Talladega, and those are the places, Anderson, Birmingham, Talladega. Occasionally, we got to Atlanta. Atlanta was 123 or 24 miles north of Talladega, although we went up there to play football because we played all the schools in Atlanta. Clark had a very powerful team back in those days. This was in the mid '30s.	27:03
Bill Crumpton	Okay. After you graduated from Talladega, did you start to work right away?	28:05
William Alexander Clement	I started to work right away. My father, as I told you, was connected with North Carolina Mutual, and there was no question about what I wanted to do. I really wanted to go into the business world and work with North Carolina Mutual Mutual. The agency director at North Carolina Mutual was a gentleman by the name of George Wayne Cox. He was in charge of the agency department. He was a very good friend of my father's. I remember Mr. Cox came to Talladega in May of 1934. He said, "Bill, you'll be graduating in a couple of weeks, and what I want you to do, I want you to come to Durham, North Carolina. Soon after you go buy a home and come up there, I want you to be in the home office and work on the Durham District for a few weeks, and then we'll assign you. I want to get you away from Charleston and away from your father. I think you need this exposure.	28:12
William Alexander Clement	So, that's what I did. When I finished Talladega in June of 1934, I came to Durham and I stayed in Durham six weeks. I worked on the Durham District, and Mr. Al Goodlow was the district manager. His son, Joseph Goodlow, eventually became a president of North Carolina Mutual. I worked there for six weeks. I worked with a gentle by the name of James Bailey who's [indistinct 00:29:35] among the first agents at North Carolina Mutual had in the city of Durham. Then I worked with another gentleman by the name of Moses. And after about six, seven weeks, about the middle of July, the latter part of July, Mr. Cox had made a trip to Tennessee and Georgia and Mississippi and so forth. He came back and said, "Bill, I think I want to send you to Memphis, Tennessee." Said, "We have a new manager there. And I said, "That's fine, Mr. Cox. I'm glad to go." I got the secretary to get me a ticket and I went down to Memphis by train out of Durham, North Carolina to Memphis.	29:04
William Alexander Clement	When I got there, my manager's name was Dan Hancock, and he opened the letter of introduction that Mr. Cox had prepared for me to give him, and I can recall Mr. Hancock said, "Bill, did Mr. Cox talk with you about compensation?" I said, "No, I didn't even ask that question." He said, "In this letter tells me that he wanted me to recommend that you would start on the Memphis District at $12.50 a week." I said, "Thank you very much." Well, that was 1934. We were in the midst of the Depression Then. Roosevelt had just been elected President of the United States in '33, was installed in '33. You remember? Well, you wouldn't remember, but the banks, he closed the banks down immediately.	30:17
William Alexander Clement	Things were pretty rough. But $12.50 a week was more than what the teachers were getting. The teachers in South Carolina and Tennessee and mostly Georgia were earning about $37.50 a month. $37.50 a month. And to get $12.50 a week, that was the equivalent of almost $50 a month. But my room and board was $7 a week. I stayed with the assistant manager and his wife in Memphis. $7 a week for room and board. I gave the cashier—and she paid me off $12.50. I gave her back $2 every week to put an envelope to save for me. That left me with about $3.50 which was my spending change, which is adequate. It was adequate. I stayed in Memphis about, oh, not quite a year. Believe it or not, I got sick in Memphis. I got a bad cold, and I just couldn't get rid of it.	31:02
William Alexander Clement	And so, finally, I went back to Charleston in the spring of '35, and then I started working on the Charleston District. So, I stayed in Charleston. I worked with my father. My brother then was working probably in Savannah, Georgia. He had left Charleston and went to Savannah. And so, I worked in Charleston from 1935 to 1940, and in 1940, Mr. Cox then assigned me to the regional office in Atlanta, Georgia.	32:08
William Alexander Clement	During the time that I was in Charleston, I married. I married a young lady that was my high school sweetheart. We met at a Sunday School convention in 1927 in Charleston, and we became friends and stayed friends off and on. Unfortunately, that was the saddest and the darkest period of my life was the fact after five years of marriage, she died. Had died from breast cancer. I had a four year old daughter, Lexine. So, that was a calamity. I was 29, she was 28. In fact, I was 28 and she was 29. She was a year older. Beautiful woman. So, that was a calamity.	32:48
William Alexander Clement	But in the meantime, I was leaving Charleston and going to Atlanta. That summer in 1941, I was traveling with Mr. CC Spaulding. We were celebrating our 30th anniversary in Georgia. The company opened up in Georgia in 1911. And Ed Merrick, the son of the president and founder, John Merrick, came to Georgia to open up that state. And so, we were celebrating our 30th anniversary in 1941, and Mr. Spaulding, Mr. Wheeler, and I, and I was driving them across the state, holding these conventions—	33:35
Bill Crumpton	Speaking up.	34:22
William Alexander Clement	—holding these meetings, public meetings in schools and churches. When we got to Savannah, I met two young ladies in Savannah. One was Dorothy Scott and the other one was Josephine Dobbs. They were young teachers at Georgia State. It's known today as Savannah State. So, we became friends. That's a long story there. Well, not too long either. But anyhow, I started going out with Dorothy first. In the meantime, I wanted to get with Josephine, so finally we got together. Dorothy went off to summer school at the University of Havana in Cuba. By the time she got back, Josephine and I were going together. We became engaged around Thanksgiving of that same year and married in December the 24th, 1941. One of the greatest turnaround and changes in my life. And Lexine, our daughter came with us, grew up within the home the very day we got married. And so, that was how I met—We've been married now—It'll be 52 years this year, but—	34:22
Bill Crumpton	Congratulations.	35:36
William Alexander Clement	Huh?	35:36
Bill Crumpton	Congratulations.	35:38
William Alexander Clement	Well, thank you. We had a big 50th anniversary celebration here in 1980—In '91, pardon me. 50 years. So, that's how really I got to Atlanta. Then stayed in Atlanta until '46. We had two sons to be born in Atlanta. Bill Jr was born in 1943. My next son was born in '46. In fact, we had to wait until my wife gave birth because they invited me to join the agency department in the home office in [indistinct 00:36:18] the first, January one. By that time, Josephine was pregnant with Wesley. And so, then [indistinct 00:36:25] and just stayed put until the baby came. Now, they would go from the job to the hospital and deliver and come back to the job in two, three weeks.	35:39
William Alexander Clement	But anyhow, we came to Durham. Lexine, Bill, Bill was three, and Wesley was about, well, he was just, well, less than a year old. We actually moved to Durham in October the 27th of '46, but after—He was born on April the 18th in '46, and I was commuting back and forth from Atlanta from April until October. And so, we moved to Durham in '46 and I became an agency officer, what they called regional supervisor was my first title. And by that time, Mr. Wheeler in Atlanta was getting up in age, and when he died, they decided to close the regional office in Atlanta and combine it all in Durham.	36:34
William Alexander Clement	We had the northern region was located in Richmond and the southern region. So, then, I became involved with managing the southern region which comprised of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and Tennessee. And so, I worked in the agency department first as a region supervisor, assisting director, agency director. I was elected agency director in 1960, and then in 1975, I was named executive vice president in charge of our field operations. And I retired in '78 as the executive vice president.	37:33
Bill Crumpton	And so, you had a long and prosperous career with—	38:14
William Alexander Clement	Oh, definitely—	38:15
Bill Crumpton	North Carolina Mutual.	38:15
William Alexander Clement	Only job I ever had in my life.	38:21
Bill Crumpton	What were some of the things that North Carolina Mutual worked on other than insurance within the community? What were some of the programs?	38:22
William Alexander Clement	When I came to Durham, the Durham committee on the Affairs of Black People was organized in 1935. CC Spaulding was one of the co-founders of the Durham Committee. George Cox was very much involved with the Durham committee. And they directed these young people who were coming into Durham to become involved with the Durham Committee. About two weeks after I was in Durham, I was going to the Durham committee meetings. They were very much involved with that. Mr. CC Spaulding was very much involved with the Mechanics and Farmers Bank. He was president of Mechanics and Farmers Bank. He was also very much involved with the Mutual Savings [indistinct 00:39:26]. He was president of Mutual Savings and Loans. He was very much involved with North Carolina Central. It was North Carolina College for Durham—For Negroes and Black—What was it?	38:36
Bill Crumpton	For Negros.	39:36
William Alexander Clement	Negros in Durham. He and James Shepherd were very good friends. Incidentally, James Shepherd was one of the original founders of North Carolina Mutual. I imagine you've heard that story. There was John Merrick, Aaron McDuffie Moore, and five other persons in Durham, and James Shepherd was one of them. When they called a meeting on October the 20th, 1898, that seven met, but they didn't start doing business until the following February, which was in '99. And by that time, James Shepherd and some of the others decided they didn't have enough faith and confidence and felt that it wasn't going to work. So, he had some other interests like education and so forth.	39:37
William Alexander Clement	But anyway, going back to the question about what—North Carolina Mutual was always interested in the total community, and I got involved in the total community of Durham because of their leadership. The first board that I was a member of was the Scarborough Nursery School.	40:25
Bill Crumpton	Yes, I've heard of that.	40:44
William Alexander Clement	You've heard of that? The Scarborough Nursery School. That's an interesting story in itself. You ought to talk with Skeepie. I don't know whether Skeepie knows that story or not. But his grandfather, JC Scarborough, was an undertaker who came to Durham from Clinton, I think, North Carolina and formed an associated with Hargett. He married into that family. His first wife died, Mrs. JC Scarborough, Daisy I think her name was. He did something I've never heard done before.	40:46
William Alexander Clement	He established a foundation, the Daisy C. Scarborough Foundation, and he funded that foundation with assets which produced income, and he created the Scarborough Nurse School really in her honor, his deceased first wife. Mrs. [indistinct 00:41:52] Scarborough, who is now his wife, was from Talladega, Alabama, incidentally, she graduated from Talladega in 1923. She became the principal and the moving spirit of that nursery. I stayed on that nursery board for 30 years. It was finally taken over as an United Way Agency, but it raised its money from the foundation and from a sliding scale of tuition.	41:26
William Alexander Clement	The next was the Durham Committee, I got involved. The Durham Committee assigned me—This is going back to North Carolina Mutual involvement. By the time I got involved, Shag Stewart, John S Stewart was the chairman of the Durham Committee. Shag served as chairman of the Durham committee until he is elected a member of the city council in '56. And all these dates I'm giving to you, the person who's reading this or listening need to verify these dates. I'm just popping these dates. But it's close enough to—If you want to do some additional research to be verify, you ought to be sure and do that. But John Stewart became a member of the city council in '56. And John Wheeler became then the president of Durham Committee. John Wheeler had been chairman of the Education Committee. You know the Durham Committee? You know much about the Durham Committee?	42:27
Bill Crumpton	I've read some on it. What were some of the issues that you recall?	43:31
William Alexander Clement	Well, the Durham Committee was divided into subcommittees, a committee on education, a committee on economics, the civic committee, the health committee, and these committees were assigned, these issues to follow up and to be authority on an event of anything should happen. I was on the Durham Education Committee working with John Wheeler. My wife and I were plaintiffs in the Brown case. I don't know whether you—Not the Brown, the Blue case.	43:35
Bill Crumpton	Blue.	44:14
William Alexander Clement	The Blue case, which was filed in federal court in 1949. Our daughter, Lexine, was a student at Hillside High School. And that suit was based on separate but equal. We were suing the Board of Education, the City of Durham certifying and claiming that these Black schools were not equal to the Whites and we were plaintiffs. That case was known as the Blue case. NAACP became involved. The law firm for the NAACP came down from Richmond. Thurgood Marshall, first time I saw Thurgood Marshall. He was with the Legal Defense Fund of the NAACP. At that time, the Legal Defense Fund and the NAACP were under one umbrella. It was later on that they separated and became two entities. But he came down, just observed that day— I never— Johnson Hayes was the federal judge who heard that case.	44:15
William Alexander Clement	By the time the case came to trial, it must have been, what, 1941. I mean, 1951. Now, that was an interesting case. You need to check that out, whoever's going to do an additional research. The Brown case—Pardon me, the Blue case. Keep saying the Blue. Blue. I have in my papers in Chapel Hill—	45:16
William Alexander Clement	Incidentally, I must mention this, all of my papers were turned over, had been turned over to the University of North Carolina Southern Collection, historical collection, and I'll come back and tell you about that. But anyhow, I'm talking about the Blue—I have all of the clippings beginning in 1949, the minutes of the Durham Committee on education in my file in Chapel Hill, through and inclusive of 1959. The decision in the Blue case came down about 1952, close to '53. We won that case. Incidentally, Judge Johnson Hayes ruled that the City Board of Education was liable, that the schools were not equal, and directed that the facilities be made equal.	45:38
William Alexander Clement	Just one thing, sideline, Alec Rivera, who was the photographer and just retired at North Carolina Central, we used him to take pictures of the White schools. We had to get subpoenas from the federal court to go into these schools. That's when we discovered that at Durham High—	46:38

William Alexander Clement	Back in those days, the White schools got the new furniture and they transferred the old furniture to the Black schools.	0:02
Bill Crumpton	Can you recall any incidences of textbooks?	0:13
William Alexander Clement	Textbooks the same way. Now, I can't prove it. But all these were exhibits that we used to develop the case and the lawyers aides presented them in evidence at the trial. Johnson Hayes, the judge, ruled that the schools were inadequate and not equal.	0:17
William Alexander Clement	In the meantime, the Brown decision and the decision—See, there was about six cases that went up to the Supreme Court, one from South Carolina, Kansas City. The NAACP were bringing these cases up and consolidating them. The one that was tried was known as the Brown case. That was the one that came from Topeka, Kansas. They ruled that not only was it separate but equal, but they had to, what? Integrate, with deliberate speed.	0:38
William Alexander Clement	That was in 1954 when the Brown decision, so that made our decision null and void. Well, it became a moot question then because we were trying to sue, and won the case on separate but equal. But now separate but equal's outlawed and they had to integrate. Well, that was a long story.	1:14
William Alexander Clement	A lot of the Southern states did not want to accept the ruling of the Supreme Court, and many of them started setting up separate laws on how they were going to deal with this new decision. In North Carolina, there was a representative in the state legislature by the name of Pearsall from Rocky Mountain, and his plan became known as the Pearsall Plan and it was a pupil assignment. You're familiar with that?	1:35
Bill Crumpton	Right.	2:06
William Alexander Clement	The Pupil Assignment Law. Virginia had another law, but it still put the burden on the parent, our parents, to integrate the schools because those parents who were interested had to, what? Had to apply for reassignment into the various schools.	2:07
William Alexander Clement	Now this is my committee now. I'm involved in this. I'm chairman of the Durham Committee in Affairs of Black—the Education Committee. So our committee, and I have all this in my files and you see the reports that we made at the annual meeting of the Durham Committee, we started going into Walltown. Walltown is a section here in Durham. Have you ever heard of it?	2:29
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	2:51
William Alexander Clement	Okay. The reason we dealt with Walltown is because the children from Walltown had to pass Durham High, Carr Junior High, Brogdon Elementary School, to come across town to attend Black schools. So, we had meetings in Walltown and met with the parents, trying to get them to apply, let us submit reassignment forms. The forms were all prepared. I got a copy of the files. Conrad Pearson, you've heard that name?	2:52
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	3:30
William Alexander Clement	Right. MU Thompson?	3:30
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	3:33
William Alexander Clement	Barry? All of those were lawyers in Durham who assisted the Durham Committee in drawing up these forms and interpreting the procedure for us under the state law people of reassignment. One time, we filed with the Board of Education in the city of Durham more than 250 applications for reassignment, and they would not reassign these kids.	3:34
Bill Crumpton	Can you recall what reasoning they gave?	4:06
William Alexander Clement	They didn't want to integrate. Richard Harris, have you heard of that name said?	4:09
Bill Crumpton	Yes. I've heard.	4:14
William Alexander Clement	Okay. Richard Harris was on the school board there. You go down and review the records at the school board meeting, which I've done. He made the motion to accept and to reassign. Couldn't get a second. Couldn't get a second. Finally, in August of '59, of the 251 applications that they had on file, they agreed to assign eight, eight Black students to previously all White schools: Durham High, Carr Junior High, and Brogden.	4:14
William Alexander Clement	Floyd McKissick Jr's sister, Andre, was in that group. Now, Jocelyn was not one of the original. She's given credit of being among the first. They didn't assign Jocelyn. But Floyd Sr. brought an injunction against the Board of Education, and two or three weeks after school opened, they admitted Jocelyn to Durham High. That's all documented and so forth.	5:15
William Alexander Clement	One of the fellows who was assigned left town or was moved away from Durham, so there were actually six. That's the headline in the paper the next morning. There were six who attended these previously all White school. They had pictures. There were no incident.	5:57
William Alexander Clement	Lee Frazier, he's still living. Noah Bennett, who's dead; and myself, we were all members of the Durham Committee on the Committee of Education. We took two of the students the first year to Brogden Elementary School. Anita Banes was one, and Jones, I don't recall their first name, but they lived in Walltown, and we alternated. One week, I would take them. Next week, Lee Frazier. Next week was Noah Bennett. We took those kids because they were the only White—I really felt for them. They were brave. We dropped them off and they would walk down that sea of Whiteness. But we had no serious incidents as far as his side was—	6:17
William Alexander Clement	Now, the actual integration on the court order didn't get started until later on. That was in the late 60s. Julius Chambers' firm out of Charlotte was involved with that, the integrating of the city schools and also the integration of the county schools. Now, that was done later by court order, but I'm talking about under the Pupil Assignment, the first assignments were made in '59, so that was during my involvement in Durham Committee.	7:10
William Alexander Clement	I became very much involved in scouting through Mr. Cox's in the North. I'm usually very much involved in scouting. At that time the Troop 55, which was located in White Rock Baptist Church, was organized in 1932. '32. We celebrated our 60th anniversary last year. We had three boys, and I became very much involved with scouting because I wanted them to get that training. That's here again the segregation.	7:47
William Alexander Clement	What the scheme was to keep them segregated, the scouting troop was a member of a division. The Occaneechee Council is made up of districts now. When you become a district, then you are automatically a part of the council and you're not segregated. But we had in Durham what was known as the Boy Scout Division. The scout executive was Henry Gillis. Have you ever heard that name?	8:24
Bill Crumpton	I think I have.	9:00
William Alexander Clement	Gillis was very much involved. Nat White, you've heard that name, I'm sure.	9:03
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	9:07
William Alexander Clement	He was Scout Master for 25-26 years. How about Carrington? Jim Jr., James Carrington?	9:07
Bill Crumpton	I think I met him.	9:16
William Alexander Clement	He was the Eagle Scout in Troop 55. Well, in 1958, Bill, my son, was 15 years of age then. He became an Eagle Scout. I'll show you that in a few minutes. In 1962, my second son, Wesley, became an Eagle Scout. In '61, and Arthur John in '62, all three of them became an Eagle Scout.	9:16
William Alexander Clement	In the meantime, those of us who were involved in scouting in Durham, Nat White, Jame Scula, R. Kelly Bryant, were fighting for integrating the scouting program. We'd go to Raleigh. Nello Teer. Have you heard that name?	9:49
Bill Crumpton	Yes—	10:09
William Alexander Clement	Nello Teer—	10:10
Bill Crumpton	—he did construction.	10:10
William Alexander Clement	Right. He was very much interested in scouting. I remember he called me to come up to his office. I was at the old Parrish Street. He said, "Bill, I know you're struggling." By that time, the '60s movement was getting started then, and they were afraid of a big outburst and a big movement protects them, and so forth. He said, "I'm going to become president of the Occaneechee Council in the next year." He said, "One of the things I want to do, the first thing I want do is going to eliminate this matter of divisions, and integrate the council, and Durham division will become a Durham district, and you'll automatically become a member of the Occaneechee council," which he did, and I can't think of the name. It's Cheyenne Leaf, or something like that, district. I became vice president of the Occaneechee Council office in Raleigh, North Carolina. And that was his county.	10:11
William Alexander Clement	Well, I could go on, I'm talking—Give me another what you—	11:20
Bill Crumpton	Okay. How did you become involved with the Masons?	11:23
William Alexander Clement	Oh, that's a very interesting story. My father was a Mason in South Carolina. He was a member of Nehemiah Lodge in South Carolina. I didn't join the Masons until I married John Wesley Dawes' daughter. That's his picture right there. John Wesley Dawes. He was a Masonic scholar. He became Grand Master of Prince Hall Masons in the '30s in Georgia. He had no sons. He had six daughters.	11:29
William Alexander Clement	After Josie and I got married, he said to me, he said, "Bill," said, "I know you are interested in business and dedicated in all economies," he said, "but a little Masonry will not hurt you." Said, "I'd like for you to think about joining a Masonic order." So I went ahead in 1942. I was raised as a Master Mason in Atlanta, Georgia, HR Butler #23.	12:10
William Alexander Clement	I left Atlanta in '46, and I transferred my membership from the Grand Lodge of Georgia to the Grand Lodge of North Carolina and became a member of Doric Lodge #28. Now, believe it or not, if you go back into history, you'll find that CC Spaulding, Ed Merrick, all of the leading movers in North Carolina and Durham were Masons.	12:49
William Alexander Clement	Now, the reason we have to say Prince Hall is because that identifies the legitimacy of Black masons. You have a lot of clandestine Masonic groups, but there's only one authentic Black Masonic organization in this country.	13:27
William Alexander Clement	Prince Hall was born in Barbados in the Caribbean. He migrated to Boston in about 1865. While he was in Boston, there was a British regiment there protecting the harbor of Boston because of the taxation and so forth. Prince Hall and 14 others were made Master Masons by this British regiment. They were operating under the authority of the Grand Lodge of England. To have a Masonic order and to operate, you have to have a charter. That charter has to be displayed even today at every meeting.	13:53
William Alexander Clement	The regiment left Boston. Prince Hall and these newly-made Masons could not meet because they didn't have a charter. So, Prince Hall took it upon himself to apply to the Grand Lodge of England for a charter, and that charter was granted in 1784—	14:53
William Alexander Clement	Let me back a minute. Prince Hall and this associate were made Master Masons in 1775. That was one year before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. All of the signers of the Declaration were Masons. That charter was granted in '84, and it took five years before it reached Boston. I've seen it, the written charter. I've been to Boston. That charter now is kept in a safety deposit box and is only brought on special occasions and at the beginning of every new decade.	15:24
William Alexander Clement	Now, Durick Lodge is one of the oldest lodges in North Carolina. I may have already mentioned it's from North Carolina. North Carolina got involved in Masonry in 1866. Paul Trayton, who served as a Grand Master of the jurisdiction of North Carolina, came down from the jurisdiction of New York, came to North Carolina in 1866 and established a Masonic Lodge in New Bern, North Carolina. The name of that lodge is Solomon Lodge #1. It's still operating today.	16:10
William Alexander Clement	That same year, he founded another large in Wilmington, North Carolina. Giblem Lodge #2. He went on back in New York. Then in the next year, in '67, he deputized James B. Hood. You've heard that name?	17:04
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	17:32
William Alexander Clement	He became a bishop. He's the first Grand Master of Prince Hall Masons. He organized a lodge in Fayetteville. That was his hometown. He's buried in Fayetteville right now. That was Eureka Lodge #3. Later that year, he organized another lodge in Raleigh, North Carolina, Widow Sun Lodge #4.	17:33
William Alexander Clement	In 1870, the four lodges came together and organized the Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of North Carolina. We are now getting ready and planning for our 123rd. That's not it. One just got the communication the other day. 121st annual communication with the Grand Lodge, which would be September 9, 10, 11. We have missed a year in meeting. We've had 16, 17 Grand Masters. James E. Shepard is the only person in North Carolina who has served as Grand Master on two different occasions. He became a Grand Master in the latter part of the '20s, served into the middle of the '30s, and largest fraternal organizations went down in the '30s because of the economic situation. He was called back to the Grannies, and he died a Grand Master in '47, and I attended his funeral in '47 in Duke Auditorium.	18:00
William Alexander Clement	Now, when I became Worshipful Master of my lodge, Doric Lodge, in '49, I served for two years as Worshipful Master. When you become a Worshipful Master of a lodge or a senior warden or a junior warden, you become a official member of the Grand Lodge. I attended my first Grand Lodge meeting in 1950. By that time, Bishop Carnes, C-R-N-E-S, he succeeded Shepherd as Grand Master. He wanted to buy a Grand Lodge building, a headquarters building, and they bought the donut shop in Logan Building on Pettigrew Street. You ever heard of that building?	19:37
Bill Crumpton	I think I vaguely remember that.	20:41
William Alexander Clement	That was next to the Regal Theater.	20:44
Bill Crumpton	Oh, yes. Now I know where it was.	20:46
William Alexander Clement	It was owned by Mr. Logan, George Logan. Ge built this nice, beautiful office building on the first floor. It was a donut, had this café. Judge Pearson, William Bill Pearson, he had difficult time passing the state bar. In the meantime, he had married Jessie, Mr. Logan's daughter. So they operated the donut shop. His other son-in-law was David Cook. David died. He had his office. We bought that building. Masons of North County bought that building. I was there the day they bought it, $95,000 or $96,000. Soon after he bought it in the early '60s, then urban—	20:48
Bill Crumpton	Renewal.	21:39
William Alexander Clement	It was one of the last buildings to go down. The man who really saved us and really protected our interest was John Willow. John Willow was a Master Mason, and he was on the Durham Public Housing Authority. We bought it for 95,000. We finally sold it for 135,000. It was one of the last buildings to be torn down there.	21:41
William Alexander Clement	Well, the reason I got into that was because Bishop Carnes, our Grand Master Carnes, appointed me chairman of the trustee board. When you have real estate property like that, you have to have a trustee board. Therefore, I became very much involved with the Grand Lodge as chairman of the trustee board of the building in Durham. After he finally sold it, Clark Brown—You've heard that name, Clark S. Brown in Winston-Salem?	22:11
Bill Crumpton	Yes. Yeah, I've heard it.	22:45
William Alexander Clement	He's a powerhouse. He's the man who helped Jim Hunt first time he went around. He built the Bert Branit. You've heard Bert Branit? But anyhow, that's another story.	22:46
William Alexander Clement	Clark Brown became Grand Master after the death of Carnes. He appointed me to go on as Specialty Deputy Grand Master, and I served in that capacity until Bishop Herbert Bell Shaw—You heard that name? Herbert Bell Shaw?	23:00
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	23:19
William Alexander Clement	He became Grand Master, and he died suddenly in Indianapolis attending a church meeting, January the 3rd, 1980. I'll never forget that day they called me. I was then Deputy Grand Master. When a Grand Master dies in office under our constitution, the Deputy Grand Master rises to the office of the Grand Master. The only reason you can be a Grand Master, you have to be elected. But I became the Grand Master at the death of Bishop Shaw in January. But I was a duly elected in October of that year and served as Grand Master of Prince Hall Masons from 1980 to '87, seven years. Seven of the best years of my life.	23:20
William Alexander Clement	Masonry's a great organization, unusual, different from any other organization you've been a member of. We gave away annually about $80,000-$85,000 a year.	24:20
Bill Crumpton	What were some of the organizations that you donated money to?	24:38
William Alexander Clement	$20,000 went to the orphanage in Oxford, for the orphanage. $10,000 went to the NAACP; $2,500 went to the United New York College Fund. $25,000 in scholarship, every district. We had 25 Masonic districts in North Carolina. Every district received $1,000 dollars to be used for a scholarship for a student finishing high school, going to college. Then we had a lot of Urban League [inaudible 00:25:23] $1,500. Their total came up around $75,000-$80,000 every year.	24:41
William Alexander Clement	We also paid a benevolent—Now, the dues are very nominal. Will Parker, you met W. Williams Seversy Parker?	25:29
Bill Crumpton	I think so.	25:36
William Alexander Clement	He's the Grand Master now.	25:39
Bill Crumpton	Yeah.	25:40
William Alexander Clement	Yeah. Things are not going as well as they should be going because of the direction he's taking. But be that as it may, that's another subject. So that's my involvement in Prince Hall. It was a great involvement.	25:41
Bill Crumpton	What are some of the qualities that the Masons look for?	25:55
William Alexander Clement	Oh, character.	25:58
Bill Crumpton	Character?	25:59
William Alexander Clement	You see, Masonry got started as a result of the Gills. These were actual operative masons. Using their hand, they built the pyramids, the Sphinx, the Obelisk, Solomon's Temple, Jerusalem. These are what we call operative masons. They were great builders. In 1712, a group of men in England said, "We ought to take this operative art of building and convert it into a speculative art to build character in man." So, Masonry is symbolic. The plumb line—You know what a plumb line is?	26:00
Bill Crumpton	Right.	27:07
William Alexander Clement	Right. A plumb line is what to prove the correctness of the corner of a building. The square. You know what the square is?	27:08
Bill Crumpton	Yes. Check your 90 degree—	27:19
William Alexander Clement	Absolutely.	27:21
Bill Crumpton	—angles.	27:22
William Alexander Clement	The level. So, we are taught as Masons, we meet a brother on the level; we part on the square, and we walk by, what? The plumb line. You've heard this same—You already know what it means. "I'm going to take this on the square." You shake a fellow's hand?	27:24
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	27:50
William Alexander Clement	That's a Masonic term. That's a Masonic term.	27:50
Bill Crumpton	That's interesting that gets into common knowledge.	27:55
William Alexander Clement	Right. Right. So you meet on level, everybody's equal. The Masons believe in equality. You parked on the square and you walk upright.	27:59
Bill Crumpton	Lovely.	28:15
William Alexander Clement	Huh?	28:16
Bill Crumpton	Right.	28:16
William Alexander Clement	You meet a brother on the five points of fellowship, foot-to-foot and knee-to-knee, breast-to-breast—These are terminologies that you learn as symbolically. Help you become a bigger man, understand life. You've got to believe in the, what? God. You've got to believe in a supreme being, that someone is in control of the universe. We refer to them as the Grand Master of the Universe. You've heard that, too?	28:18
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	28:53
William Alexander Clement	Well, that's another subject. That's a lesson in Masonry. But it's a great organization. Character. So we say this: In ancient days, operative masons were builders of buildings. Speculative Masons today are still builders, but they're builders of, what?	28:54
Bill Crumpton	Character.	29:16
William Alexander Clement	Character in man.	29:16
Bill Crumpton	Well, one of the requirements for a Mason to be a registered voter, especially during the times that—	29:17
William Alexander Clement	Well—	29:29
Bill Crumpton	—African Americans were expunged from voting.	29:29
William Alexander Clement	I tell you what. Clark Brown, I mentioned his name while ago, he was an outstanding civic leader. Clark Brown had never run for public office to my knowledge. But he's had more to do with the electing of public officials than any Black man in North Carolina, I'm going to bet you.	29:32
William Alexander Clement	When he became Grand Master, he required every candidate to be a registered voter. Now, they just made that by decree almost. So not only did you believe in God, but you had to be, what? A registered voter. John Wesley Daws did the same thing in Georgia. That caught on because, you see, Mr. Dawes in Georgia developed what he called the Atlanta Voters League. Blacks were not even registered in Georgia and North Carolina either. The reason they weren't registered, most of them, they had to pay a poll tax. You remember that?	29:51
Bill Crumpton	Right.	30:38
William Alexander Clement	The White man paid his poll tax because it was attached to part of his real estate. When he got his real estate tax notice, poll tax, a dollar, whatever. If you didn't own any real estate, you didn't get a notice. So that was one means that they used to discriminate and keep Blacks from registering. You had to be a registered voter. You had to pay your poll tax. If you paid your poll tax, then you had to interpret the Constitution.	30:41
Bill Crumpton	Backwards and so and so and so.	31:11
William Alexander Clement	Absolutely. You see, you had a period there from 1865 to about 1880, they call the Reconstruction period, and they had certain laws, you see? They kept the federal regiments in the South. But when you remember the Rutherford case, when he became president. He was a candidate.	31:13
Bill Crumpton	Rutherford B. Hayes. Yes.	31:40
William Alexander Clement	Rutherford B. Hayes. That case, that election was one of the few elections that was decided by the electoral college. One of the deals was that you withdraw this last regiment that you had in the South. And they did, and he was elected. He got enough electoral votes. If you think that they were voting in November, they are voting for what? Electors.	31:44
Bill Crumpton	Electors.	32:12
William Alexander Clement	Normally, there's no problem. But it can become so close until it goes into the electoral college.	32:14
William Alexander Clement	Then after they did that, then the Ku Klux Klan took over, primary took over, Democratic primary. Who could vote in the Democratic primary?	32:24
Bill Crumpton	Landowners, mostly.	32:36
William Alexander Clement	Yeah. Only White people who were members of the Democratic Party. The primary became what? Tantamount to the general election. When you go through with the primary and the candidates, the general election ain't nothing. You're never a Republican Party. It was very slim. It wasn't effective in the South. They still trying to build it. You've heard of Judge Wearing in South Carolina?	32:38
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	33:08
William Alexander Clement	He was the one that outlawed the what? The primary.	33:09
Bill Crumpton	The primaries.	33:12
William Alexander Clement	That was around about '45, '46. That was a big opening for Blacks. Going back to Clark Brown and Mr. Dawe, they started, what? Getting Blacks registered. Mr. Dawes had a program in Georgia where if you owed any poll tax, they paid it up. They paid it. Then what they would do in some counties and state law, if you were delinquency 10 years, if you paid the last 3 or 4 years, you could become a registered voter. So anyhow, to answer your question, Masons in North Carolina even today must be a registered voter to be considered as a candidate for a Masonic order.	33:12
Bill Crumpton	Did the Masons have any voter registration drives?	34:02
William Alexander Clement	Well, we have to be very careful. See, Masonry is an exempt organization. Therefore, you can't get too involved openly in politics. But we talk about it, and men who are Masons usually head up drives or get involved like I did in the Durham Committee. John Wheeler, Shag Stewart, all of these are Masons.	34:07
Bill Crumpton	Okay. Did the Masons ever work with any other fraternal or civic organizations?	34:40
William Alexander Clement	Oh, yes. Yeah. We—When you say work with them—	34:47
Bill Crumpton	Well, cooperate. That might be a better word.	34:57
William Alexander Clement	We would say that the Colored Orphanage is an organization we cooperated with. The Urban League is another one we cooperate with. The NAACP. Now, the legal defense, after they split the Grand Lodges of the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of the United States, supported Thurgood Marshall and the Legal Defense Fund in their cases. They would send thousands and thousands of dollars to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. Personally, it was unfortunate that they split, but that was a big hassle. So, they finally split. They had to go to court so The Legal Defense Fund was able to maintain the name NAACP Legal Defense. But when Thurgood Marshall got started, he was with NAACP all was under one umbrella.	35:01
William Alexander Clement	But the Masons took that on as a project and funded a library, the books and things. They furnished it. Thurgood Marshall was the 33rd active—I'm an honorary, see. You only have 33. That ring is almost worn off. My wife gave me that in '43 when I was elevated. That's the only ring I wear. It's about to— you can only see the 33. But I'm a 33rd degree Mason, but I'm not an active. You only have 33 Masons who elected to be active Masons and actually run the Southern Scottish Rite Masons jurisdiction. The third demargin was one.	35:54
Bill Crumpton	Okay. To your knowledge, did the Masons ever work with any White organizations during the segregated period?	36:42
William Alexander Clement	No. No. No. Just recently, in recent years, we were having some communication with White Masons. There's a fellow by the name of Walks, Phylaxis Magazine. He's Kansas City. This his publication, and they are reporting in this publication now some communication with White Masons. Now, you remember we used to have a program by the name of Reflections?	36:52
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	37:35
William Alexander Clement	When I was Grand Master, they had a program and had the Grand Master of the White Masons of North Carolina. They interviewed him. Then they interviewed, not together, but separately—But that was a big step forward. It's difficult for a White to accept you as a brother. It's much better now. Much better. But I've had limited experience. But the state of Washington, for example, I understand that they're doing some things there together on the West Coast.	37:36
Bill Crumpton	Okay. Is there any cooperation with women's organizations?	38:29
William Alexander Clement	Oh, yes. The Eastern Stars are affiliates, auxiliary with Masons. You cannot have an Eastern Star chapter unless you have a Masonic Lodge. Now, naturally, we are running into some problems. I started encountering that. But you see, I believe in equality myself. Women want to be on the same footing. They don't want to be an adjunct. But to answer your question, yes, you have the Daughters of Isis that's affiliated with the Shriners; the Grand Chapter of Eastern Stars affiliated with the Grand Large. You have the Consistory. You have an auxiliary to the Consistory. That's the 32nd, 33rd degrees. But that's your question. Yes, we have affiliated groups of females.	38:31
Bill Crumpton	Okay. Do the Masons help people with their personal problems such as finding employment?	39:47
William Alexander Clement	Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Definitely. We are interested in the total wellbeing, and we are pledged to the widows and orphans. Yes.	39:57
Bill Crumpton	Okay. That's about all the questions I have prepared. Was there any other incident or anything you can recall?	40:14
William Alexander Clement	Well, this has been a very interesting interview. We've talked about over an hour-and-a-half, talking about things and life and conditions. We've made some progress, and we got to still keep fighting. I think we need to learn from whence we came and get our plans and program for the future because there are a lot of obstacles still confronting Black people in America. You know that.	40:23
Bill Crumpton	Yes.	40:55
William Alexander Clement	I was reading the morning's paper about Eva Clayton's interview in regards to the president's economic package, and how the Black Caucus had to really make it plain to the president that there were some things that had to be included in that bill. They were getting ready to work on a lot of programs, and because of their solidarity, because of their unity and because of their political power, there's no question in my mind that the power for Blacks in this country is through politics. The White man doesn't mind you getting some money, wealth. We've developed millionaires over the years. Madam CJ Walker was a millionaire. But when you start controlling that ballot, that's when they respect you, and that's why they fought so hard to keep it from you. They don't want you to vote.	40:57
Bill Crumpton	They remember Reconstruction.	42:02
William Alexander Clement	Oh, yes, yes. So, we can't go to sleep. We got to be ever mindful of the fact that there's still a lot to be done, in the city of Durham, the state of North Carolina, and the nation. So we've got to keep on pushing. You need organizations. I'm not involved now as I was at one time, but I realize the power of Black organizations and working through a unit and an organization sometimes is better than working as individuals. There were times that the White man didn't mind dealing with you on one-on-one, and you had your leaders in the community where they could call and tell you so on and so on and so on. That was it. But you need to be organized, working together, have common goals and objectives. But this matter, the ballot—	42:04
William Alexander Clement	Education is another important thing. You see, you can leave your children and you can accumulate wealth and all that, but that's not education. Mel Watts spoke our church last Sunday. Young man didn't even know he was going to be a lawyer. He said the man asked him when he was in eighth grade, said, "What are you going to be?" "I don't know." He said, "You going to be a lawyer." It's the first time he ever heard the word lawyer. Kept on, went on to University of North Carolina. Not only did he finish there, but he was a Phi Beta Kappa. Went there to Yale Law School. Can remember the law review board.	43:08
Bill Crumpton	Can you think of any way that your life is different now as compared to segregated times?	43:57
William Alexander Clement	Oh, yes.	44:05
Bill Crumpton	[crosstalk 00:44:07].	44:06
William Alexander Clement	Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Big difference. And I say it with modesty. I'm not overwhelmed or intimidated by being in a all White group. Fortunately, I've been able to acquire a little education. I've continued to pursue by reading, travel. My wife and I have visited every continent except South America. Went to Africa. The last big trip, we went to the Middle East, been to the Far East, to Europe, Caribbeans. We haven't been down to South America.	44:06
William Alexander Clement	But you know what's going on. You sit up an when have knowledge and information and you being able to carry on a conversation—I'm reading a book, a very interesting book right now by Paul Kennedy. Preparing for the Year 2000. This helps to build your confidence. You don't have to just go around and display what you know or push your—But when you get in a conversation and somebody start talking, kind of nice. You can almost feel them saying, "Well, gosh, he knows a little bit about something."	44:54
William Alexander Clement	Fortunately, Lord has blessed me with good mind, memory, dates and things that somehow this—And I know that I'm going to lose it at 81; you can lose a lot of things. But I've been fortunate. I'm grateful to my parents, my grandfather. They gave us a lot of encouragement and support and back up. A lot of Black kids have been ruined for life. "Shut up. Get back. Don't do this. Don't do—" Well, you know. [indistinct 00:46:16].	45:30
William Alexander Clement	That's nine year old, my grandson, just got this letter today. He's in camp up in Pennsylvania, a science camp for four weeks. He's nine years of age. Ain't that something?	46:16
Bill Crumpton	That's really interesting.	46:37
William Alexander Clement	Now, his mother and father addressed the envelope. But we've been writing him once a week because he sent us the address. He's to be there four weeks. First time he'd been away from them.	46:38
Bill Crumpton	From home.	46:47
William Alexander Clement	From home. "Dear Grandpa and Grandma, how are you? I'm fine."	46:48

Item Info

Title:

William Clement interview recording, 1993 May 28

Date:

May 28, 1993

Creator:

Clement, William Alexander

Contributor:

Crumpton, Bill

Description:

Name: William Alexander Clement; Date of birth: 1912-05-06; Place of birth: Charleston, SC; Occupation(s): insurance agent; managerial; Residence: Durham, NC
Informant ID: 330; Interviewed by: Bill Crumpton.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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Related Resources:

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Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

Interview number: 312
83d4d4f3-bf8a-4e07-a952-e55f94b43703
behindtheveil
btvnc03008
ark:/87924/r4g44p557
b9b02510-6f34-4a51-8000-cb214eb9ee84

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William Clement interview recording, 1993 May 28

Transcript

Item Info

1. William Clement administrative file, 1993

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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William Clement interview recording, 1993 May 28

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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