Charles Gratton interview recording, 1994 June 22

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Tywanna Whorley	What is your name, sir?	0:04
Charles Austin Gratton	Okay. My name is Charles Gratton.	0:05
Tywanna Whorley	Where were you born?	0:09
Charles Austin Gratton	I was born July the 16th, 1932, Birmingham, Alabama.	0:10
Tywanna Whorley	Okay. Where did you live?	0:17
Charles Austin Gratton	I was born and raised in Norwood. That's a neighborhood just about eight miles out of downtown Birmingham.	0:19
Tywanna Whorley	Was it a predominantly Black neighborhood?	0:35
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, actually it was a White neighborhood and we were on the back side of the White neighborhood.	0:35
Tywanna Whorley	Can you describe it?	0:40
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes. Norwood was the upper middle class White neighborhood. And like all neighborhoods back in the 30s and 40s, they had Black people living on the out of edge of the White neighborhood. So, that's where I was born and raised.	0:44
Tywanna Whorley	How was the area that you lived in, in terms of compared to the White neighborhood?	1:08
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, it was typical practically of all Black neighborhoods. We had an old saying that goes, "You can tell where the White neighborhood ends and the Black neighborhood began," because usually that's where the pavement run out. No paved roads, no sidewalks. All dirt roads. So basically, that's the way I grew up in Birmingham.	1:14
Tywanna Whorley	Did you have street lights?	1:39
Charles Austin Gratton	No street lights. Matter of fact, it was in the probably 40s before we even had electric lights. We used lamps. You know what a lamp is? Okay. And somewhere in the early 40s, we were able to get electricity and we had to walk something like a block and a half to pick up our mail. We didn't even get mail delivered to our doors. And that was typical in all Black neighborhoods. It was more or less like a rural route when it came down to us. But right at the edge of the Black neighborhood and the White neighborhood, the Whites would get their mail delivered to their door. But they had one particular area with just a rural mailbox. And the postman would just come by and put all your mail and those boxes. And then you had to go a block and a half to collect your mail.	1:40
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember the house that you lived in?	2:45
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes, it's still standing now, but it had been remodeled. The old original house was torn down back in '59. Mother and father lived there until they passed. And my brother, I guess about four years before my mother passed, my brother had the old house torn down and built my mother a new house. But that particular site is still there.	2:48
Tywanna Whorley	Can you describe the house?	3:17
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes. It was, again, typical of Black family homes. Had a [indistinct 00:03:28] tight front porch on it and wooden steps come up to the porch. You would enter into the house and into a bedroom. And then it was another room to the left as you enter that we used for a bedroom and living room combined. And there was a little small dining area and a kitchen with a little stove in it. And that was it.	3:18
Tywanna Whorley	Did you have any brothers and sisters?	3:58
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes, I have, what? Well, it was seven boys and three girls. One boy is deceased. They all weren't born in that particular house. Myself and two other brothers were born in this particular house. The rest of my family were born in that vicinity. Norwood vicinity.	4:01
Tywanna Whorley	Where are you in the 10?	4:21
Charles Austin Gratton	I am the 10th.	4:21
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, you the baby?	4:21
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes.	4:21
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your parents?	4:31
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes. My father's name was Joe Gratton. My mother's name was Charlotte Gratton. They migrated here out of Montgomery, Alabama. And down in Montgomery, it was more or less just farming. And my father came to Birmingham, I'm not sure what year, but he done mostly public work, foundry, pipe shops, until his health started getting bad on him. And then he more or less resulted to farming and gardening. He had hog, cows, chickens, all this right on the backside of Norwood over there. So, he did that up until his death. He died in 1948.	4:32
Tywanna Whorley	What did your mom do?	5:27
Charles Austin Gratton	She had a full-time job raising 10 children, just a housewife. And she passed in 1968.	5:30
Tywanna Whorley	You said that your father grew a garden. Did the kids help out in terms of—	5:41
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes, I guess that was one advantage of having so many children. They could help out with the farming chores, and that's basically what we done. Just helped dad out. He had a pretty good plot of land over in Norwood. And he would raise corn, sweet potatoes, peanuts, had a nice sized garden there in the back. Like I say, hogs, cows, chickens. And he done very well.	5:47
Tywanna Whorley	Was that typical of the neighborhood?	6:20
Charles Austin Gratton	No. And see, that that particular section was real scattered. It wasn't a lot of Blacks. I guess total you could say maybe seven or eight families lived on the backside of Norwood.	6:22
Tywanna Whorley	Did they own? I mean, in terms of—	6:38
Charles Austin Gratton	No, we were renting. But later on, in '46, my daddy started buying with the help of his sons that they went to Chicago and they were doing very well. So, they, in turn, helped him buy the place back in '46. He was able to buy the house we were living in and 12 additional lots for $1,300. And I know that doesn't sound like much now, but back in the 40s that was a lot of money. And like I say, my brothers, his sons, they helped him by sending money back and help pay for it.	6:38
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember your grandparents?	7:32
Charles Austin Gratton	No, I don't know anything about it. But grandparents, no more than what I was told by my parents and my sisters and brothers.	7:37
Tywanna Whorley	What'd they tell you about them?	7:49
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, my granddaddy Jake Gratton, I understand, I don't know exactly if he were born in Atmore, Alabama, which is pretty close to 100 miles outside of Montgomery, south. And he had quite a bit of land in that Atmore. And they were mostly farming. It was all farming land. And I really don't know what actually happened with all the land that he had in Atmore, but for some reason, my daddy, he decided he would come to Birmingham. And this is where he got his start, here at Birmingham.	7:51
Tywanna Whorley	I don't know if you remember, but when he came to Birmingham, what did it start off with?	8:36
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah, I think he was working with the railroad. And I don't know if it was Southern Railroad or what the name of it, but he kept that job for a while. And then he left it and went to a steel foundry called American Radiator back in those days. And he worked there for several years. And then he went to American Cast Iron Pipe Company, known as ACIPCO. He worked there for years. And last job I remember, public work that he did, was with a foundry called [indistinct 00:09:27] and Goslin. And they were doing more or less what we called back then in World War II, was a defense plant. And they were making shell casing for these big cannons and all that they were shooting in the army. And basically, that was about it. And from that he went back to the farming over in Norwood.	8:49
Tywanna Whorley	Where did the kids go to school at?	9:50
Charles Austin Gratton	I went to school at Hudson Elementary School in Cottageville. And that was approximately six miles from where I lived. And yet there were a White school a block and a half from where I lived, but I couldn't go. And I had to walk every day, five days a week, those six miles to school and back. From Cottageville back to Norwood. Wasn't any buses. We had to walk. Rain, sleet, or shine. We went to school.	9:55
Tywanna Whorley	Did you have your siblings with you? I mean, did y'all walk together?	10:30
Charles Austin Gratton	There were maybe two or three kids that had to make this journey going to school each day.	10:37
Tywanna Whorley	Where did you go for high school?	10:46
Charles Austin Gratton	I went to H Parker High School after finishing Hudson Elementary. That was in, I'm not sure of the year, but by the time I graduated from Hudson, we were riding the bus from Norwood downtown, get a transfer, and go to Smithfield to Parker High School.	10:47
Tywanna Whorley	Did you have to pay for the bus or was it with the schools?	11:18
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah, they had what was known, and you could go to the Alabama Power Company, which was in charge of the buses at that time, street cars. And through the school, they would issue what they call a coupon book. You would've passes. And by the way, the car fare at that time was seven cent. And instead of paying the seven cents, you could get this book of coupons for like, three cents. Half price for school children. And they would last probably a month. And this is the way we had to go to school.	11:22
Tywanna Whorley	Could all the children afford to pay to ride the buses?	12:02
Charles Austin Gratton	As far as I know, I've never known of any problems. And I guess if they did, I guess the schools would make some type of arrangement if a parent was unable to afford those coupon books. I suppose that the school and the electric company worked out some type agreement.	12:07
Tywanna Whorley	How was it going to Parker High?	12:29
Charles Austin Gratton	Oh, it was nice. But still, like I described about Hudson School and Norwood Elementary School, there also was school that the bus had to pass by, an all-White school in Norwood. That was Phillip High School. We had to pass that and go probably another three miles to Smithfield in order to get to Parker High School. Of course, in later years during the transition and right now, Norwood is, I say 99% all Black. So, naturally the elementary school, Norwood Elementary School is Black. Same thing with Phillip High School that I had to pass by. It's now I guess 99.5% Black, if not 100%. So, this is the change that have taken place since the 60s, when the school desegregation and all that came out. But the strange part about it, it really didn't solve the problem totally. Because when these schools started integrating, then you had what is known as the White flight. White people started leaving the city. They went to the suburbs, built better schools, and in turn, the schools that they left had a downward trend. And even as now, the better schools are located out in the suburbs. What was the better class of schools here then for Whites, have really declined.	12:33
Tywanna Whorley	How was it going to Parker High?	14:24
Charles Austin Gratton	It was nice. It was one of the better schools for Blacks in the entire city. They had a school by the name of Erma High School. It only went to the 10th grade, I believe. And you went two years to Erma. The students that were living on the south side of the city, they went two years to Erma and then they were transferred to Parker. Parker was the school, it always have been the top school for Blacks, back in the 30s and 40s and 50s. Then, somewhere during the late 50s or early 60s, they started building new schools for Blacks in different communities. Like, now for instance, they have a high school in Cottageville where I went to the elementary school. They still have Hudson High School, but they have Carver High School out there too. They have Fairfield High. They have an Ensley High. So, now it's just been spreaded out. Back in those days, there were just the one high school, other than Fairfield. Fairfield had a high school, but it really wasn't up to par with Parker. Parker was the top high school in the city of Birmingham.	14:31
Tywanna Whorley	In terms of the classrooms, were they all [indistinct 00:15:57]?	15:53
Charles Austin Gratton	Not really. They were comfortable. We didn't have to bring in extra seats in any class. It was average, it was pretty much standard.	15:59
Tywanna Whorley	Did they have the uniform?	16:12
Charles Austin Gratton	At that time they did. The boys were required to wear khaki pants and the girls were in blue and white. Blue skirts with white blouses. Yeah.	16:17
Tywanna Whorley	Could everyone afford that?	16:27
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes, they did. It's a strange thing that when you come up the hard way, you have a tendency of finding out how to do certain things. As far as the boys were concerned, we would go to the Army surplus store and buy the khaki pants, the soldier uniform, and you could get them at a discount price. So, buy your being in uniform, basically all you would've to do was keep them clean. And it wasn't a matter of being in style or out style, because everybody was in the same thing. And I don't know how the girls fared. I guess some of their mothers were talented enough to sew and they bought this blue material and made their blue skirts and all. So, really, actually, it was more economical than it is now. Because that material and what we were wearing, it wasn't expensive. But now you have children with these designer jeans and the $150 sneakers and all this kind of stuff. So it really wasn't a burden. I think it was the best way to go back in those days.	16:30
Tywanna Whorley	Did they ever give you a reason why they had the dress code?	17:49
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah, well, that was the reason why. For fear that some of the parents were better off and could dress their kids better than others, and then this kid that couldn't afford expensive clothes or better looking clothes, it would have a bad effect on them. So, if you put them all in uniform, regardless of what your standard was or was income-wise, we all look the same. So, that eliminated that problem.	17:51
Tywanna Whorley	So, I guess there were kids who'd come in from different backgrounds.	18:17
Charles Austin Gratton	Right. Right. Right, because like I was telling you a minute ago, Parker High School was the central school. So basically, everybody had to go there. I don't care how well off a Black family was, it didn't qualify him to go to a White school. He had to go to the Black school. So, if the family was a little financially better off, naturally they could afford to dress the kids better. But the uniform took into play, it just negated that kind of thing.	18:20
Tywanna Whorley	How were the teachers?	18:54
Charles Austin Gratton	Pardon?	18:54
Tywanna Whorley	The teachers?	18:54
Charles Austin Gratton	How were they?	18:54
Tywanna Whorley	Yeah. In terms of, I guess, what they were teaching the students.	18:54
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, I think the teachers were very efficient. That's about the best—It's almost like a person saying that, "Mama, she cooked the best biscuits, nothing in the world like Mama's cooking." That was simply because I hadn't had nothing else but Mama's cooking. So, when you asked me about the teachers, I would have to say, because they knew more than I did. Now, if there was some teachers better, I didn't know anything about it. So, basically, I think I got a good education.	19:00
Tywanna Whorley	How would you describe, I guess, your family's economics? Were they, in terms of middle class or?	19:35
Charles Austin Gratton	Mine? I would say they were just barely above the poverty line. Just barely. We had to really make out with a lot of things, especially being a large family, too. And me being the 10th child, naturally I got a lot of hand-me-downs. And my daddy, he was very industrial. He had a lot of get up about him and he knew how to do a lot of things. For instance, he would buy his shoes, and I know this might sound new to you, but the name of those shoes, we call them Brogans. I don't know if you ever heard of that, but when we wear those out, he would have soled them shoes himself. He'd go up in Norwood in some of those alleys and find some automobile tires that the White people have thrown away. And he'd bring them back home and cut out soles for our shoes. And had a little gadget there that he called a shoe last. And he would cut the sole out and nail it to those shoes and they would last you a lifetime. You wouldn't wear out that automobile tie. So, this is the kind of thing that we came up in.	19:43
Tywanna Whorley	Did they ever talk about, I guess, the Depression?	21:02
Charles Austin Gratton	I was born right at the verge of the Depression, back in '32. I think the Depression was from '29 up to about '31. So, I don't have a lot of memory about the Depression, but I do know that my sisters and brothers, they nicknamed me as being the Red Cross Baby. Had what they called the Red Cross that was helping take care of families, large families, that were in need. They would issue food stamps, something similar to what they got now. And the families could go to this central place and get certain types of foods, like flour, meal, canned meats, and this kind of stuff. So, that's about as much as I can remember about the Depression.	21:06
Tywanna Whorley	In terms of, I guess when you were in need, how were your parents able keep your family, I guess, together during difficult times? Like, morale or whatever.	22:07
Charles Austin Gratton	State it again, because I may be losing you.	22:21
Tywanna Whorley	I'm sorry. Was it a close family?	22:23
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes, very close. And my father, he was deacon at the church and we were raised up going to Sunday school and church every Sunday. And we'd always have prayer in the home. And most of the times, whenever possible, we would all eat together, have family meals together. That time it wasn't any television or radio. So, we would all sit around the fireplace, and basically the discussion was just about the Bible. That's the way we were brought up.	22:26
Tywanna Whorley	Did y'all do anything fun? I mean, the whole family?	23:04
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah, we played with each other and made our own toys. We would make wagons and skateboards and go swimming in the creek. And by the time we got through doing all of the chores around the house, there wasn't a whole lot of time left for playing.	23:08
Tywanna Whorley	Did y'all ever travel to downtown or?	23:31
Charles Austin Gratton	Probably maybe once a month. And that was a walking experience. We had to walk from Norwood downtown.	23:36
Tywanna Whorley	How long would that take?	23:46
Charles Austin Gratton	Not too long. You could do that walk in about 20 minutes. Taking shortcuts. Yeah. The closest grocery store was at least a mile, mile and a half. And that was another walking trip for the weekly groceries. We would go and help bring groceries back. And that'd consist of maybe 50-pound sack of flour, meal, and lard to cook with. Just basic things, because by we having this mini-sized farm and big garden, we raised most of the things that we needed to eat. So, we done very well. We never had to go hungry. Yeah.	23:46
Tywanna Whorley	Were there families in the area that wasn't as, in terms of [indistinct 00:24:43]?	24:38
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah, there were. And my daddy, he was generous enough to share some of the things he had with the other families. It was a lot different then than they are now. People seemed to really care about one another and if you didn't have something, your neighbors would gladly chip in to help. And that's something I would like to see today. People being more concerned about their fellow man.	24:42
Tywanna Whorley	The store that you traveled to when you'd get your groceries, was that White-owned?	25:23
Charles Austin Gratton	Oh, yes, yes. That was in the middle of Norwood, on 12th Avenue. And matter of fact, we didn't have any Black grocery store owners. The only thing that we had then were just little small operations, like mom and pop, and a lot of those were operating out of portions of their home. And the story that's almost go untold about 4th Avenue here, which is known, and have been known down through the years, as the Black business district of the city of Birmingham. During the hay days of the late 30s and early 40s, you couldn't hardly pass out there on the street for Black people. This was the only place they had to come shop. They could go in the front door and come in restaurants, have a seat. Didn't have to go on the backside of somebody handing what they wanted, ordering from a little handout window.	25:23
Charles Austin Gratton	But the saddest part of that story is although there were a lot of traffic and Black shoppers up and down 4th Avenue, the business itself was owned by Whites, still. And they just had Blacks working in there as waitresses. And sometimes you would find a Black person on the cash register, but the Whites were sitting somewhere close by to watch over the operation. Now, this was the hay days of 4th Avenue that were known as the Black business district, simply because this was the only place that Blacks could come and go in the front door. These establishments were set up specifically for Blacks. It was the only place that they had for a movie theater. I think we had two or three at the time. And no other place in the entire city could you go? Not unless you went to a back door and went up to the balcony. Even some of the big department stores downtown, you couldn't sit at the lunch counter. They had a handout place where they wanted your money, but they didn't want to give you the service. They'd have a little section where they could just hand it to you and you could get it and keep going. But to go in a restaurant to sit down and order your food, this was the only place you could do it. 4th Avenue.	26:29
Tywanna Whorley	When did you first become aware of the fact that there was these type of conditions, or actually segregation?	27:49
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, actually, when I got old enough to know myself, to really know I existed, I mean, I was born into this thing and raised in it. I can remember very close in my mind when my mother would have the occasion to send me to this grocery store I told you about that was approximately a mile away, which was the only grocery store in Norwood. She would give me instructions before I leave home and tell me, say, "Son, now you going up to the store and get this or that for me. Say now, you pass any White people on your way, say you get off the sidewalk, give them the sidewalk. You move forward. Don't challenge White people." And so I was just brought up in that environment. They also had a park, it was about about a block from where I was born and raised, or where I lived.	27:58
Charles Austin Gratton	And it was known as the White people park. They had a tennis court there and nice park, trees. And Blacks wasn't allowed in that park. I mean, we just couldn't go there. And it's just one of those things. Coupled with the school thing, like I say, some days that I would be sick and I could hear the school children playing during the lunch hour down at Norwood Elementary School, which was all White. And that's what really stuck in my mind. I say now, "That's a shame that I have to walk so far to school every day," when I hear those schoolchildren playing. And I say, "Here I am, a block and a half from an elementary school and I've got to walk six or seven miles of school every day." And it really, even now, I can almost hear those kids, those White kids, out at this elementary school playing and the noise and laughing and playing. And I'm at home, sick, because I guess, basically, most of it might have been from exposure, walking those six and seven miles of school every day, whether it was raining or not. I had to go. So, those are some of the memories that I have of my childhood, growing up in Norwood.	28:58
Tywanna Whorley	Did you ever ask your parents why things were as they were?	30:19
Charles Austin Gratton	I don't know if I ever just specifically came out and asked that question, but it was one of those things where you had been programmed all along, from ever since, I guess, maybe you got old enough to know right from wrong and this kind of thing. And to challenge White people just the wrong thing to do. And you just automatically grow up inferior. And you have the feeling that White people were better than you. And it just really wasn't any question to ask them about why. I mean, that was White people thing. That was a White people's school. And I just didn't feel that I had any right to go there. It basically just never entered my mind. And it's not strange for me. I mean, most Blacks in the South felt that way until the late 50s and 60s when Dr. King come along with his philosophy and started giving Black people some hope that the way we were being treated wasn't right, and this thing can change.	30:26
Charles Austin Gratton	And it was just some hope that we were waiting on. And the way it affected me is whenever I would hear Dr. King talk, it seemed like he was touching me from the inside. He could touch your feelings from the inside, things that you would want to say, but you just didn't know how. Things that were right and wrong, but you kept it inside of you, because you didn't know how to express it. So, he was really a great leader and a great man. I think he done a wonderful job in what he'd done for our people as a whole.	31:38
Tywanna Whorley	When you finished high school, what did you do?	32:21
Charles Austin Gratton	I worked for a Coca-Cola Bottling Company for about six years. And—	32:26
Tywanna Whorley	In Birmingham?	32:32
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes. Birmingham Coca-Cola Bottling Company. And I got married at the age of 17, had my first child at 18, and then I left the Coca-Cola Company and went to American Cast Iron Pipe Company, known as ACIPCO, and I stayed there 28 years. And I retired on disability in 1980. But in 1959 I went into business for myself, Green Acres Cafe. And I was doing two things, working at ACIPCO and operating Green Acres Cafe. And I did them both until 1980 and came off on disability from ACIPCO, and then I were able to put full-time into what I'm doing now.	32:37
Tywanna Whorley	How was it working for Coca-Cola back then as a job?	33:41
Charles Austin Gratton	Typical of all jobs that were issued out to Black people. You always done the hardest and the deadliest work for less pay. I had the opportunity for a while, during my tenure with Coca-Cola, to work on what they call a route truck. And that's the truck that deliver Coca-Cola, the drink, the pop, to the different stores. And my job was, after the White salesman come in and take the order, he'd come back and tell me how many cases of pop to bring in the store. So, I had to pull them off the truck, load them on a dolly or hand truck, take them in the store. First thing I would've to do when we reach a store was go in and start separating the empty bottles. Get all Coca-Cola product. And I would tell the White salesman how many empties he had and in turn they would get those many full cases to replace. So, that was a job that the helper on the truck, that's what I was at that time, a helper on the pop truck. And the helpers done all the work and the White driver, he just went in and wrote the ticket up and collected the money and stood around. Drank him a coke while the helper was doing all the work. No help from him at all. He was making maybe five times of what his helper was making.	33:46
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember how much you was making?	35:18
Charles Austin Gratton	I was making?	35:19
Tywanna Whorley	Mm-hmm.	35:19
Charles Austin Gratton	I was making 26.50 a week.	35:19
Tywanna Whorley	I've heard that, I guess, I don't know if it was just—That Coca-Cola was a White man's drink. Was that—	35:23
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, that was the say so. Do you know the rationale why it was called that?	35:31
Tywanna Whorley	No.	35:36
Charles Austin Gratton	Okay. That was because it was a small drink. It only had, what, six ounces or eight ounces. And that wasn't enough for a Black person. He wanted the 12 ounce drink, same price, but you get more drink. And so, Coca-Cola was more or less a pleasure type drink for White people that really wasn't hungry, not thirsty, they just did it for just entertainment. But I had one of the helpers on the truck and the strange thing about that, Coca-Cola I had a policy that when the driver and the helper were out on trucks and going into these stores, with your own money, you wasn't allowed to buy another product. You had to drink a Coca-Cola. If you went in the store and on your job and say you was hot and thirsty and wanted a cold drink, you couldn't buy a Royal Crown Cola, or RSC as we call it, or a Town Hall. And you had to drink a Coca-Cola or the salesman on the truck would report you and probably get you fired.	35:37
Charles Austin Gratton	But that was way back then. But recently, we had a similar situation, somewhere not too far from here about, little suburb. Coca-Cola actually fired one of their helpers for drinking a Pepsi-Cola, I believe. And they made a big issue out of it. So, when they fired him, Pepsi-Cola said, "Well, send him on over here, we'll hire him." (laughs) They made a publicity thing out of it.	36:42
Charles Austin Gratton	But back to your other question about the Coca-Cola being called a White person drink. Well, basically that was it. It just wasn't enough for your money. And we were buying it to either help fill us up, when White people were buying it just for pleasure. They wouldn't even drink all of that little six ounce, or maybe eight ounce, whatever it was. But the 12 ounce wasn't enough for us. Because actually, this was part of our survival. This was pleasure for White people. So, that's the rationale behind Coca-Cola's a White men drank and all the other big drinks we used to call the bigger drinks, belly washers. It would actually fit you up, because you could buy you what we call a deck of cinnamon rolls and a 12 ounce drink. And that was your lunch. You full. So, that is the reason that Coca-Cola was labeled as being a White man drinking and this kind of thing.	37:09
Tywanna Whorley	What do you remember the year that you got married?	38:19
Charles Austin Gratton	1949.	38:19
Tywanna Whorley	So, when you went to work for the steel company, what did you do there?	38:26
Charles Austin Gratton	Basically, I was a pipe grinder.	38:29
Tywanna Whorley	What's that?	38:33
Charles Austin Gratton	See, they have this 18-foot mold that they put this hot metal in. It's maybe 17 to maybe 18,000 degrees Fahrenheit in order to melt this metal. They line this mold with sand and they put it on some rollers that spins, and they pull this hot metal into it and that forms the pipe. Well, after it cooled down and they pulled this pipe out of this mold that's been lining with the sand, then some of the sand would stick to the outside of the pipe. And we had hand grinders with a grinding wheel on one end, electrical outfit. And we had to grind this sand off the outside of those. It wasn't a whole lot, but it was some. See the pipe had to be clean. And then they would take it and dip it in hot tar and coat it, paint it, put the numbers on it and it was ready to be shipped.	38:38
Charles Austin Gratton	So, I did that for about six years. And I was transferred out of that unit into the steel foundry. And instead of grinding the outside, I was grinding the inside. I was operating what they call the OD grinder. See that same process of cleaning the outside, the inside. You wouldn't have sand on it, but it would have what they call a flux in it, where they throw this flux up in it while it's still hot and that would help make the inside smooth. So, I worked on that particular job for about another seven, eight years. And then I was moved up to a overhead crane operator, and I stayed in that capacity until I came off on disability.	39:46
Tywanna Whorley	And do you remember how much you made?	40:41
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah, I think I started off at ACIPCO back in '56 and I started off making a $1.25 an hour. And that was a long ways from $26.50 a week. And constantly we got raises. And when I retired from ACIPCO on disability, I was making pretty close to $9 an hour.	40:48
Tywanna Whorley	Did you belong to a union?	41:19
Charles Austin Gratton	No, no Union. It was a fairly good company to work for, because by not being unionized, we never was really bothered with layoffs or strikes. And the company was fairly decent. We had our own medical program, whereas to go to the doctor and your medicine didn't cost you anything. And along with that, we were on a, I guess you might call it an incentive program, whereas every three months, depending on how much profit the company made, they would in turn pay us a bonus. And the percentage they paid us would be determined by how much profit that the company made. So, that was real nice. It helped a lot of people above and beyond their regular salary. Most times the average worker would probably come out with the extra $400, $500, maybe $600 every three months in bonuses, so. It was real good.	41:23
Tywanna Whorley	So, in terms of treating Black males that work there, that was [indistinct 00:42:36]?	42:30
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, when you compare to how Black males were being treated in other industries, plants similar to what we were doing, I would say that we probably had the best treatment, because basically it was all the same. Even the ones that had unions, about all they got above what we were getting out ACIPCO was they had to pay union dues and we didn't. Companies now and back then, they pretty much controlled the unions. The representative that supposed to be representing the men from the union, they would meet with the top executives of the company and they'd cut deals and it's just so much they was going to give you, whether you had a union or not. Because they had the representative in the pocket, you know? They'd pay him so much under the table and he'd be in negotiating, he'd come back out and tell you, say, "Well, it's the best we can get. Y'all going to have to accept this." SO.	42:35
Tywanna Whorley	When you went to go get your job for the steel company, how did you get it?	43:48
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, just went to the employment office and filled out application. See, usually word spreads around when certain place are hiring. And at this particular time I heard that they were doing hiring out at ACIPCO. So, I went out and put my application in and in a couple of days they called me and told me to come out for my physical. And another day or two I went to work.	43:48
Tywanna Whorley	Where did you live in Birmingham?	44:18
Charles Austin Gratton	Still lived in Norwood.	44:20
Tywanna Whorley	Norwood?	44:20
Charles Austin Gratton	Uh-huh.	44:22
Tywanna Whorley	Did you own your house or would you rent?	44:24
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, no. When I first got married I stayed in the house, family home with my mother, for about four or five years. And after getting this job out at ACIPCO, if we back up, you remember I told you my father bought the house and 13 lots? Well, before he passed, he had this property separated. He gave so many to the brothers that were able to send money back and help him pay for it, they had their investment in it. So, some of those got three lots, some of them got two, this kind of thing. But I got one, because I was the baby. So, on that lot that was mine, I think it was about in '57, somewhere along in there, didn't take me too long, but I built me a house on that lot. So, I never actually paid the rent in my life for a home, because I stayed there in the home house until I was able to build mine.	44:25
Tywanna Whorley	And did you build it yourself?	45:34
Charles Austin Gratton	Partially. I had found me a old carpenter that knew how to frame and advised me what to do, and he more or less just told me how to do certain things and I pretty much built the house myself.	45:38
Tywanna Whorley	What, was it a two bedroom, three bedroom?	45:54
Charles Austin Gratton	It was two bedrooms. Mm-hmm. Had two bedrooms. It was a real nice house. It's still there now. Of course we've had some additions put on it and I'm not living there. I live out in other side of Irondale now. I've been out there about 20 years. I had me a home built out there. But this particular house, it was the house of Norwood at that time. It was brick, two bedrooms, bath, kitchen, dining room and living room. Real nice house. And now it have three bedrooms to it. Like I say, I don't live there. Back in '67, I suppose, somewhere in there, my wife and I divorced and I gave her the house and she stayed in it for several years and then she moved out and have it rented out now. It's a rental property now.	45:54
Tywanna Whorley	Oh, okay. One other question I want to ask you is about business that you started, you—	47:02

Tywanna Whorley	I noticed the pictures out there that this was named something else before Green Acres. Can you tell me your name?	0:01
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah. To go back, when I first went into business was in 1957/58. That was on 16th Street and Sixth Avenue North in other words. Right across from 16th Street, Baptist Church, diagonally across the street from where the Civil Rights Institute, on the northeast corner. There's a parking lot there now. Big two story building, and that's where I first went in business. I stayed there for three years. I really didn't make any money, but I got a lot of experience. But in not making any money I had to close down. I stayed out of business then about a year, and the place came available here on Fourth Avenue, and I located over there in '63, opened up in '63. Same name, doing the same thing.	0:13
Charles Austin Gratton	But like I say, I got a lot of experience those first three years that I was on 16th Street. So, the minute I opened my doors here on Fourth Avenue, I started making money. Not a whole lot, but I wasn't going in the hole and I could see a return. I stayed there in that location across the street, the Federal Courthouse is there on that particular spot now. I stayed there until 1970, and that's when the building were condemned and they actually were tearing the building down while I was still in there trying to operate. It was a big decision to make, whether to just close down or try to relocate in the Fourth Avenue area. My thinking was this. I had established a fairly good business, and I felt like a lot of my customers were depending on me for the product I was selling.	1:22
Charles Austin Gratton	I started looking around, I found a place two doors down from where I am now. It was vacant. It was condemned also, but a Black person owned the building, so I talked to him about it and he said, "Well, yeah. I'll rent it to you," and I had to go and do all the renovation, inside renovation, and all the remodeling, plumbing, everything. I stayed there until 1990. The city of Birmingham at that time, under the leadership of Dr. Arrington, Mayor Arrington. This Fourth avenue had always been, and these are words that he told me himself, he always have had a special interest in Fourth Avenue simply because it always have been known as a Black business district and he would like to see it stay alive. So, through the help of an agency that he formed, it's still in existence, known as Urban Impact.	2:33
Charles Austin Gratton	I think Lillian Hill works for them now, referred you to me. Their job was to help revitalize Fourth Avenue. Along with that, he helped put in effect the program known as The Land Bank Program, and how that operates is this. Through the agency of Urban Impact, they would identify a site that a merchant was in, a Black merchant was interested in, then the city would buy that property, and in turn sell it back to this merchant at a low cost interest rate, same price that he paid for it, but a low cost interest rate. They would negotiate with you and make it as reasonable as possible so you could survive. I've known cases where they deferred interest for maybe a year and a half. You just pay the principle back, no interest. I've known of cases where they would give you a real, real low interest rate, something like 2% or 3% for maybe the first two years.	3:37
Charles Austin Gratton	Then after that it'd go up to 4%, max out at six. So, the city really played a big part in helping redevelop Fourth Avenue. Because maybe what I left out was that during '63, rather when the big riot was, all of this was demolished, fire-bombed. This was done by Black people, because like I told you, remember now, this ties back in that although it was a Black business district, White people actually was operating the business. So, during the riot, Blacks in Birmingham and downtown, they knew that these business was White owned, so they just came by and threw fire-bombs and busted out windows. All of these White owners, I mean operators down here, they just closed up and left. So, Fourth Avenue was just left in a ghost town, seemed like a battlefield, war zone had been through here.	4:47
Charles Austin Gratton	There were just a few Blacks then started coming in and trying to put it back together, and with the aid from the city, we were able to get this back on track. So, now, 99% of everything in the Fourth Avenue area, from 18th Street down to 16th Street, is Black owned. Black owned, Black operated. So, that's the big difference. You don't have the crowd that we once had, being close to Civil Rights Institute have been a boosting arm, because we get a lot of tourists and we get some of that business up here. The Jazz Hall of Fame, it reopened, that have helped some. With the improvement that the merchants and the city have done to the area, people feel more safer and comfortable in coming back to this area shopping. We have, the Black merchants in this area, we have a nice percentage of White customers.	5:49
Charles Austin Gratton	You take lunch hour, it'll start maybe the next hour. I'll have call-ins from Alabama Power, South Central Bell, the banks, and a lot of these be White people. They come in, pick up the order. Let's do it. Today we have quite a few Whites that trade with us at night, and it all because of the effort that we put together to try to destroy the negative image that was projected on Fourth Avenue. Some was true, some had some validity to it, but not all of it. Merchants have said we've done a lot, by banding together we have what is known as the Fourth Avenue Merchants Association, and the board president, we meet once a month, discuss things in the area and what affecting us, and if we have any problems, we discuss that, and ideas for improving on situations, and things are looking real bright.	6:52
Tywanna Whorley	Back then, did it bother Blacks that, even though this was a place they had come, that it was White-owned?	8:01
Charles Austin Gratton	Not really. It was very few were concerned and very few that actually knew what was going on. They were so elated over the fact that they could come in the front door, and in some places they could see a Black person on the cash register. That just tripped them out. I mean, it's almost like saying they were in hog heaven. I mean, they wasn't looking any further than what they could see. They thought this was the utmost, this was the height that anybody would want, just to be able to work in a place like this, or being able to come in the front door. I mean, it was really just that. That's just the way most of us thought.	8:08
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember any racial incidents that took place in Birmingham?	8:57
Charles Austin Gratton	Racial incidents, how?	9:02
Tywanna Whorley	In Birmingham, between Whites and Blacks that took place?	9:03
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah. Well, I remember all of it. The racial incidents that went on back in the '60's, '59, the struggle actually started in Montgomery with the bus boycott. That was under the leadership of Dr. King. We had a movement. He also, by the name of Alabama Christian Movement for Human Rights, Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth was over this, I think they have a statue of him out here. I was very active in the Christian Movement. His house was bombed once. He was in it, his family, and they had made another attempt to bomb the church. But that bomb was found in time, and it didn't do a lot of damage to the church. But after his home was bombed, I took an active part in being one of the guards at night, we had to guard his house every night. I had a shift one night a week of being a guard, to look out, keep that from happening again.	9:07
Charles Austin Gratton	Prior to that, we had The Freedom Riders to come in one Sunday morning. If I'm thinking clearly, I believe it was on Easter Sunday morning, down at the bus terminal that we had on 19th Street, about two blocks up, called Trailway Bus Station. When they arrived at the Trailway Bus Station, the Ku Klux Klan was waiting on him. When they got off of that bus, they had been notified by—Police department had been notified to stay away, that the Klan was going to take care of it. They beat those Black people something terrible. I mean, some, they were on the bus, and some they wasn't even on the bus. After they beat them as long as they wanted to, then the police came in and arrested them and took them to jail. Now, this incident took place way before the main struggle started here in the city of Birmingham. Of course, Reverend Shuttlesworth, he was beaten, his wife was stabbed trying to enroll his daughter up at Phillip High School. The same high school as I told you about, I had to pass on the bus.	10:17
Charles Austin Gratton	He was jailed many times for sitting in the front of the bus. We had to ride in the back, Whites in the front. Reverend Shuttlesworth challenged that and he was put in jail many times for that. The biggest turning point of all was in '63, when Dr. King came here, and attempted to march uptown to integrate the lunch counters. They had a commissioner by the name of Eugene Bull Connor, and he was determined that he wasn't going to let Blacks cross Kelly Ingram Park to come up in town to integrate the lunch counters. So, this is when the fire hoses and the police dogs and all that took place out in the park. As much stress and force that they had, it still didn't stop a lot of this. At this particular time, a lot of the school kids had took part in it. With all that force the police department had out there, a lot of the children still broke through and made it uptown to those lunch counters.	11:41
Charles Austin Gratton	After that, Governor George Wallace, he sent his state troopers up here for reinforcement, and they circled the whole entire park, standing there with the bayonets on their shoulders. They were determined that incident wouldn't happen again, wouldn't anybody escape through. They had a mass arrest that particular night. They arrested so many school children until they ran out of space in jails, and they took them out to Fair Park and booking them in out there, at the Fair Park, holding them inside a fence. Shortly after that, I guess the next incident was when was bombing of 16th Street Baptist Church, when those young girls lost their lives. That was basically the turning point in making things better in the city.	12:53
Tywanna Whorley	In the 50's, when you heard about the bus boycott, did you think things were about to change now?	13:59
Charles Austin Gratton	No, I didn't. All I've ever known, all of my life, was segregation. As far as I was concerned, it would always be. But I had hope that it would be different. But I didn't know how it could be going about to get it changed, because it just seemed like you were up against the impossible. Along came Dr. King with the vision, and he just could see far enough to know what it would take. Even, not trying to discredit him, but I think a lot of other Blacks probably knew what it took, but they wasn't willing to pay the price. See, Dr. King knew that somebody was going to lose their life. It was going to be a lot of bloodshed, and which in most transitions that's what always takes place.	14:06
Charles Austin Gratton	Freedom is not cheap. By him knowing that, he was willing to pay that ultimate price, which eventually cost him his life. Probably other leaders that probably could have done the same thing, but they wasn't willing to take that risk and pay the price that—So, I really didn't have any hope. Everything Dr. King was doing, like I say, was attention thing from the inside, and it had my prayers and all that it would work, but actually knowing that it would, step by step, I mean you just continued to think that this was impossible to do. But it just worked out gradually.	15:15
Tywanna Whorley	Do you remember a place called Dynamite Hill?	16:01
Charles Austin Gratton	That was in Smithfield, that's where Dr. Shores was living. They bombed over there constantly. Number one is because that was the upper class section of the city of Birmingham for Blacks. That's about five blocks, four blocks from Park High School. But you had your teachers, your doctors, and your lawyers, the high upper class of Blacks, they had got real nice homes over there. They had some of the nicest—Well, the nicer homes in the city was Smithfield, known as Dynamite Hill. So, when the Blacks started talking about integrating and all this kind of stuff, equal employment and all that, so the only retaliation that the White people could see, the Klan, that was causing the most problem, they all of a violent nature. They believe in hanging and lynching and this kind of thing, bombing.	16:05
Charles Austin Gratton	To retaliate, or to scare or shock Blacks, and see Dr. Shores, he was instrumental in handling lawsuits, him being at that time, it wasn't but probably three Black attorneys in the city, and he was one of the Civil Rights lawyers. So, they figured, well, if we can scare him off or kill him, then they won't have no lawyer to represent them. So, that's why they bombed over there so much. They were trying to kill out the leaders, scare them or run them off or whatever they could do. They had constant bombings over there. So, that's why it was known as Dynamite Hill.	17:15
Tywanna Whorley	Did a lot of people move out, do you know?	17:58
Charles Austin Gratton	I don't think so. I don't recall of any action. Dr. Shores's house is still there. He stayed in the same house. He was bombed and attempted to be bombed many times. That was one of the strangest things about this whole struggle. I guess we had been in it so long, and a lot of us had been under so much pressure till we felt like that it really couldn't get any worse, it had to get better. With the kind of philosophy that Dr. King had, we just decided we didn't have too much lose.	18:01
Tywanna Whorley	When his house was bombed, did he just keep rebuilding every time?	18:49
Charles Austin Gratton	It actually wasn't completely destroyed. They would—Maybe the dynamite they were using would probably blow out most of his windows, and maybe destroy maybe a wall or two, knock a hole in the wall. It wasn't in a position where they could get enough dynamite in one section to actually blow up the whole house, because if they had it would've killed him. Some of those times when the house was dynamited, he were in there. Same thing with Reverend Shuttlesworth's house. Now, his house was a little bit different constructed than Dr. Shore's. They were able to get this dynamite over Reverend Shuttlesworth's house between his house and the church. Some of it, I guess when they threw it or placed it, some of it did go under the house, and this house was destroyed.	18:52
Charles Austin Gratton	It was a miracle Reverend Shuttlesworth got out of there alive without being inched in anymore than it was. Because that dynamite, it might have been more and it was put in a better place to do damage. So, during all of the bombing attempts in Smithfield or Dynamite Hill, those houses, most of those houses were so constructed that they would really have to almost take enough time to try to get that dynamite underneath the house to do enough damage. It wasn't close enough together. Even if they put enough out beside a wall, by the houses being spaced like they was, a lot of that force would go that way because it didn't have anything to hold it together to do a lot of damage. But they made a lot of attempts over there.	19:54
Tywanna Whorley	You said there was a church, what was the name of the church?	20:47
Charles Austin Gratton	Reverend Shuttlesworth's Church. Bethel Baptist Church. That's in Collegeville.	20:48
Tywanna Whorley	The last question I wanted to ask you. Do you see any, I guess comparing what you lived through, through the 40's and 50's, any changes now that you would like to see now, or some things that you wish stayed the same?	20:59
Charles Austin Gratton	Well, I would like to see our people as a whole start facing reality, and try to look to the future rather than being satisfied with the accomplishments that we've already made. That's the downside I should say, of a little progress. We have a tendency of being satisfied with just part of the pie, rather than going for the whole thing. Now, my philosophy is this, and I've said it many times to different people that I've talked to. It is good in a sense, but we've got to get that long range view. Most people, most of our people, Blacks I should say, they stress education, which education is good. But the bottom line, they more or less put emphasis in the wrong place. For example, they'll tell the children, say, "I want you to go to school. I want you to get a good education, where you can come out and get you a good job."	21:20
Charles Austin Gratton	They missed the point. I mean, go to school, get you a good education, come out of school and try to own a job. Not going, looking for somebody to give you a job, learn some trade in school, get in some kind of profession, and you go to own the job, not to be hired at the job. You see it's a lot of difference in standing in a pay line, waiting on a paycheck, and sitting behind a desk where you own the business so you issuing out the paychecks. So, that's what we tell our people, and they go and get these jobs, and get this education. If they going to come out to be specialists in repairing computers and technicians and all this kind of thing, well, it's all right maybe to go ahead and get a job for a continuous climb.	22:45
Charles Austin Gratton	But don't be satisfied at being that. If you go in there and learn how to work on that computer, learn how to make it, and from that, set you up with shop and start selling computers and hire some of your own people that work and service the computer. Come up the same way. But see, we get on these jobs and when we do start doing 25, 30, $35,000 a year working on somebody's job, we got it made. But when you should be shooting for with that 25 or $35,000 a year job, the knowledge that you acquire in making money for somebody else, say, "Well, I can do this for myself." But I think it ends there, when we as parents, when we tell our children to go to school, get a good education where you can come out and get a good job. Once they get that good job, that's the end of it. I think that's where we are settling right now. Of course, what I just described may be at the higher level, but you can back it on down and come down below.	23:50
Charles Austin Gratton	The better some of us have done, the more satisfied we've become, and say, "Well, you know. I'm doing well. I can pay my bills, I can do this." They don't want to go any further. This is what I see integration and equal job opportunities and all this have done for us, it has helped us to a point but then it's hurting us too because we're satisfied. We don't want to do any—Excuse me. Let see who this is. Okay. I think I was about finished with what I was saying, telling you.	24:47
Tywanna Whorley	Just one more thing. Back then, was there any businesses on Fourth Avenue that were Black owned?	25:24
Charles Austin Gratton	About three. The Magic City Barber Shop. Of course, it's been Black as far as I know, and this was probably back in the 50's, early 50's. I can't go beyond that, I was too young to know. That was one. Nelson Brothers Cafe, and what else? There probably was another one. But I know those two and that's about all come to my mind right now.	25:34
Tywanna Whorley	Okay. Because I'm trying to figure out, back then, how was it that they were able to have their own businesses? I mean, I'm sure they had to go to the city to buy them.	26:12
Charles Austin Gratton	No. It was just a few—It'll just show you how few Blacks think or look to the future. Now, there were many more that probably could have done the same thing, but that wasn't our trend of thinking. As long as we was working for somebody else and operating a business with someone else, and getting maybe a little bit of money above what the average person would get, Black person would get, we were satisfied. But these particular people that I'm talking about, the man that somehow, and I don't know how he managed to do it, at one point, somebody somewhere was renting, operating this for a White man. But this guy was thinking far enough ahead and was able to negotiate a deal with this White man and buy him out, get him to sell it to him. Well, it goes back again to, like I was telling you about the land and the house that my daddy bought over in Norwood, he wasn't financially in no shape to do it, but he took a chance.	26:24
Charles Austin Gratton	He wanted it and he took that first step negotiating with the people, the White people that owned this land and a deal was worked out. He just had faith that someday somehow he would pay for it, and it came to pass. It's not enough for us to have that kind of vision and have that kind of faith. It's not an unusual thing. They going to answer that. It's not an unusual thing. I mean, it happens every day. It's just like people go and purchases a car. They get the down payment, they don't know whether they going to actually pay for the car or not. But they have enough faith to go and put their down payment down, and take it on a monthly thing. If they pay for it long enough, one day they'll own the car.	27:25
Charles Austin Gratton	But cars are nothing, is not important. If we would use that same kind of theory on tangible things that meant something, leave the cars alone because see, when you drive that cars a loss, you done lost value on it already. You couldn't go round the block and come back and get the same price that you paid for it. But when it come down to land and going in businesses, if we would use that same principle in doing that, then there would be more Blacks in business. There'd be more Blacks doing better, there'd be more Blacks able to help other Blacks. But we don't think that way. So, that's why it's just a few of us. We put our prizes in the wrong place, and we got a system that encouraged that. You can go and buy a car, but [indistinct 00:29:02] can go and buy a house. You can go to buy a house, then you've got to have all kind of qualifications.	28:16
Charles Austin Gratton	But one thing you need to buy a car is a down payment, most of the time. So, the system is geared up to make us think a certain way, and it's just going to take somebody with a little bit more vision above the average in order to succeed. Because things have not changed a whole lot. They've changed more or less in the way things were presented. But the bottom line is still there. Other words, there was a saying that goes that, the Ku Klux Klan had pulled off his robe and put on a three-piece suit now. What I mean by that, instead of having a robe and cone on, coming out to lynch you, he took that off and threw it away. He got the three-piece suit on, but he's sitting president of the bank, loan officers in the bank, so they lynching you that way now, economically and financial and still there.	29:08
Tywanna Whorley	Did Mr. Gaston serve as a role model for a lot of Blacks here?	30:18
Charles Austin Gratton	Yes. Mr. Gaston, he done a wonderful job when you consider where he came from, and how he had to make it. He faced some of the same oppositions that I just described. But he had that stamina to stay on in there. Although he's successful and multimillionaire and all that kind of stuff, it didn't come easy for him either. I mean, he had to deal with the same type problems that I've previously described with you, but he had that determination and willpower, and he believed in himself and what he was doing. That's just what it takes for any person to be successful in whatever they do. They've got to believe in theirself first and they've got to believe in what they're doing. Along with that, you stick with it, and it'll eventually work.	30:19
Tywanna Whorley	I just want to get on record, what was the name of this place before I see on the pictures out there?	31:19
Charles Austin Gratton	It was The Silver Sands.	31:24
Tywanna Whorley	Was that similar as to what—	31:29
Charles Austin Gratton	No, no. It all together different. Silver Slipper. I'm sorry. Silver Slipper. Now, they more or less were serving dinner type foods, what some describe as soul food. It was at a reasonable price, real cheap. See, my thing is more or less fast foods. Something similar to Church's Chicken, McDonald's, things on that nature. I just have a little service counter there for them to stand and eat if they want to. But mine primarily is just takeout.	31:31
Tywanna Whorley	That was also White owned?	32:11
Charles Austin Gratton	Yeah.	32:12
Tywanna Whorley	Okay.	32:12
Charles Austin Gratton	Black operated, White owned.	32:14
Tywanna Whorley	Okay. Thank you.	32:18
Charles Austin Gratton	Okay.	32:19

Item Info

Title:

Charles Gratton interview recording, 1994 June 22

Date:

June 22, 1994

Creator:

Gratton, Charles Austin

Contributor:

Whorley, Tywanna

Description:

Name: Charles Austin Gratton; Date of birth: 1932-07-16; Place of birth: Birmingham, AL; Occupation(s): self-employed; Residence: Birmingham, AL
Informant ID: 741; Interviewed by: Tywanna Whorley.

Occupation:

Self-employed

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

Interview number: 171
d4a3573c-6cbb-451a-9245-2c3d49866bf7
behindtheveil
btvct02026
ark:/87924/r4hm5708k
54d6691f-f4be-4da7-b1a0-f15c49c0c4aa

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Charles Gratton interview recording, 1994 June 22

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1. Charles Gratton administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Charles Gratton interview recording, 1994 June 22

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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