Marcus Lyons (primary interviewee) and Alma Lyons interview recording, 1994 June 28

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Michele Mitchell	This is Tuesday, June 28th, 1994, and I'm at the home of Mr. Marcus and Mrs. Alma Lyons. Your middle name is Spencer?	0:03
Marcus Lyons	Marcus Spencer Lyons.	0:24
Michele Mitchell	And could you spell the last name?	0:26
Marcus Lyons	L-Y-O-N-S. Lyons.	0:29
Michele Mitchell	And you were born in New Orleans?	0:33
Marcus Lyons	Yes, I'm a native New Orlenian.	0:35
Michele Mitchell	And what year were you born, sir?	0:37
Marcus Lyons	February the 24th, 1914.	0:46
Michele Mitchell	If you could just tell me just a little bit about growing up and what you remember about the neighborhoods, places that you went to.	0:51
Marcus Lyons	I grew up in what it's called the Garden District in York, Louisiana. And during that time we had probation and things of that nature, such as they used to have the distillers or things of that nature where you would— Sometimes they were called bootlegging if you were caught making home brew, things of that nature. And sometimes we'd have situations where those drums would explode at night and you'll see the beer all running across the streets and things of that nature. But as time passed on, that was cleared up. Because we didn't have any saloons or things at that particular time, but now they begin to have speakeasy and then we have places, what they call a ballroom, where you could go and take a drink, get those who love to drink. Anything else you'd like to know?	1:01
Michele Mitchell	Was it— Yeah.	2:11
Marcus Lyons	I was a member of the first African Baptist Church, the oldest Baptist Colored church in the state of Louisiana.	2:14
Michele Mitchell	The oldest one. When was it established?	2:22
Marcus Lyons	The year [INTERRUPTION]	2:25
Marcus Lyons	I can't go to the [indistinct 00:02:37].	2:39
Michele Mitchell	Got to cut it off.	2:39
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, cut it off till I—	2:40
Michele Mitchell	When was it established then?	2:46
Marcus Lyons	1817.	2:47
Michele Mitchell	And it's on 3rd Street?	2:50
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, 2216 Third Street, New Orleans, Louisiana. That's pastored by the Reverend E. Darnell Jones. He's the present pastor of the Old Baptist Church.	2:51
Michele Mitchell	And what was it like going, did you go there as a child often?	3:03
Marcus Lyons	I grew up as a child in that church. We had what is known as the Cadet Corps that was similar to the Boy Scouts and the girls also had their particular group. And we would have our regular training and be promoted to our various positions as we grew up and were able to command those different positions, which helped tremendously in helping to develop character. And most of those boys and girls, they developed and they went their various ways of receiving their training throughout the United States. Then too, we were able to expand, and some of us had the opportunity to return to the church where we received our background, which has been an inspiration to us. And I can remember some of the selections that we would sing and play or Come to the Church in the Wildwood, the Little Brown Church in the Vale, There is Sunshine in my Soul Today. And little things that really had been an inspiration to me.	3:08
Marcus Lyons	I was baptized at the early age, then I accepted Christ. And from that time and on I have been attempting to walk in the Newness of Life. Also became a deacon of that church and later became the chairman of the Deacon Board at the first African Baptist Church. We would go out and visit the sick and administer to them on the first Sunday and serve them communion. And you'd be surprised to know how the sick members would be waiting for us so that they could think till their what was known as their testimony or determination. And that meant so much to them, give them a lift. And it even strengthened us to be better Christians. I held a position as chairman of the Deacon Board for 14 years. My mother happened to be a student at that particular church. In fact, my—	4:29
Michele Mitchell	Your mother?	5:33
Marcus Lyons	My mother and father, they were members of that church. My father's name is on the cornerstone of that church.	5:33
Michele Mitchell	Your father's name is on the cornerstone?	5:41
Marcus Lyons	Yes. The cornerstone of Old Baptist Church, First African Baptist Church. My father was a deacon and my mother was a deaconess. My middle sister, Mildred Lyons Reese, served as a superintendent for a number of years. And I have a other brother, George Lyons, who was a few years after me, but he also became a minister and moved to California, Los Angeles, California, where he's doing tremendous work out there in California, doing religious work.	5:42
Michele Mitchell	It really— Oh, I'm sorry. Please.	6:42
Marcus Lyons	And he also happen to have a— He's married to Dolores Lyons and they have a son who's also a minister. We have many ministers in our family. Right here in New Orleans, we have my first cousin, Christus S. Gard, the late Christus S. Gard, happens to be a member of the First African Baptist Church of the 6th District. He's deceased now, but he happened to have two sons who are ministers of very prominent churches, New Sion Baptist Church happen to be the name of one. And Friendship Fellowship Baptist Church happen to be the name of the other church. And they are doing tremendous job. And they're sincerely spiritual filled men and God is faith in their lives.	6:43
Michele Mitchell	It must have been, you talked about the inspiration in the church and some people who are Catholic in the city have told me about the segregation they faced going to church, but it doesn't seem like that would've happened with this church. It was—	7:43
Marcus Lyons	At one time this church was all White, then it began to integrate later. And then farther became all Black when people far and near would visit the First African Baptist church because they have heard so much about it. And the type of membership that they have would lend itself to develop because of a large number of the people were highly trained at that particular time and they didn't mind trying to serve and help others to become outstanding Christians too.	7:59
Michele Mitchell	And you said that it became all Black. When was this? Do you know about when that was?	8:42
Marcus Lyons	No, not exactly. I don't know the exact year.	8:46
Michele Mitchell	Okay. Well, I'd like to ask you a question about schooling, since you've taught in the school system here. In terms of where you went to school, I know that you and your wife went to McDonald 35, but where did you go before that?	8:46
Marcus Lyons	I went to Thomy Lafon Elementary School. From there I went to J. W. Hoffman School, known as Willow School that one time. And then from there to McDonald 35 senior high school, where I participated in football. And they were state champions in 1933. And I happened to be a member of that team.	9:09
Michele Mitchell	1933.	9:43
Marcus Lyons	From there I went to Straight College located on Canal Street, where I met my wife, Elma W. Lyons. I also played football there for two years and ran track and became a red letterman. Each year I'm invited back to Dillon University because of the athletic program where they invite off their outstanding athletes to their annual banquet.	9:50
Michele Mitchell	[indistinct 00:10:27]. That you were quite an athlete. How did you find time to sort of balance being an athlete and taking coursework too?	10:31
Marcus Lyons	It was very hard to do that because many times I had to get up 4 o'clock in the morning and walk to school. And sometimes I'll be stopped by the policeman, ask me where am I going this time of the morning? I would tell him. He says, "School is not open now." I say, "Yes, but I have to work before going to class." So he would watch until he sees that I had entered the school ground. And then I would proceed to do the work that I had to do before class time. Then after my class, they had been completed. I had to prepare myself to practice football. Then after practice some football, I had to walk home again. This was a pretty long distance. Sometime on the empty stomach because we didn't have the opportunity and privilege of having the type of services that are rendered to athletes today. And it was hard and we had to make a tremendous sacrifice to do this. And we didn't even have the type of equipment that they use on the football field like they use today.	10:43
Marcus Lyons	But we were determined to try to do the best that we possibly could. So we had a chance to play against various outstanding schools at that particular time. Sometimes we traveled to Jackson, Mississippi, to play [indistinct 00:12:27] College. And then we played against Florida A&M, and we met meet them sometimes at the halfway point at Tallahassee, Florida. And we would play other nearby teams that were outstanding at that particular time.	12:12
Michele Mitchell	Sir, this is really interesting. No one's talked to me about being an athlete, going to all these colleges. What was it like going on the road? Was it easy?	12:47
Marcus Lyons	It wasn't very easy. We couldn't afford going by a plane, but most of our trips would either be by bus or either by train, and that's the mode of transportation that we had. And even in high school, sometimes during that time of interrogation at the [indistinct 00:13:17] high school level, they used to have a White official officiating the game. And that was unusual. But then finally that subside fast on where you had men of color officiating the game. See, now you have a different situation all together where it doesn't matter who officiate, as long as it's fair. And then, they're much better organized in that particular areas or sections, than in those particular days. Then sometimes we play teams that were not as organized as the teams, all they did, but they have their respective conference and they also have stipulations about academic training and their age level.	12:57
Marcus Lyons	But in those days, you didn't have, most anybody could play regardless of their weight or size or color or whatnot, as long as they thought that they could win the game and it wasn't nearly as strict as it is today, that you play at your respective levels and things of that nature.	14:15
Michele Mitchell	Yes. When you were on the road going back and forth, did you stop? Did you go straight through?	14:36
Marcus Lyons	Sometimes we could go straight through, but if we were not committed to go straight through, we had to go to get our meals and other things through the back window, because we were not allowed to go to the main entrance of the particular certain places of that nature, because of segregation. And we had to do the very best that we possibly could under those conditions or circumstances. And that's even in the bus stations, you were separated. And even where the train was concerned too, they had a section in the back for the Blacks, and they had other sections for the White. That was the mode of transportation on the train. And you couldn't allow to board the train until after all of the other groups had boarded. Then you were permitted to board the train. But under segregation laws, the divider that they had to separate the different passengers. And also in departing from the train, the same procedure was carried out. The other groups were permitted to get off first. Then those of color would get off later. That is the mode of transportation that we had in that particular time. Anything?	14:43
Michele Mitchell	Just, I think it's really— I haven't talked to anybody who's an athlete.	16:28
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yeah.	16:31
Michele Mitchell	And it sounds like it was a really good opportunity to go to other schools and just to meet people and travel.	16:36
Marcus Lyons	Traveling is very educational. It rather meant a lot to us because that was a part of our educational training to see how different people are, and the different methods that they use in separating people and the techniques and how the conductor, at the gate, would give you a ticket that automatically separates you. He wouldn't have to tell you. But the ticket that they gave you automatically separated you. You might be at the waiting gate together, but after that you were [indistinct 00:17:13]. And that's how the separation would take place. Those are facts.	16:44
Michele Mitchell	That's amazing. That really is in terms of going different places and just seeing so many different customs, but it all has the same result.	17:24
Marcus Lyons	And that sometimes we would in traveling by the bus or the street car, you were permitted to go to the front of the car or the bus and give you transportation and get off the bus and go to the back when they open the door for you. And that's the way it was throughout the south. Even Atlanta, Georgia, I had that experience, where many times you'd go to the football games and you would be dressed extremely well, but sometimes the police would see things differently. They would just roughly hound males and females in a unbecoming manner. Later, those the method were changed.	17:25
Michele Mitchell	I would also like to find out about what led you into being a barber.	18:21
Marcus Lyons	What is that?	18:29
Michele Mitchell	The things that led you into deciding to be a barber, I think that would be really interesting.	18:30
Marcus Lyons	What caused me to become a barber is that when I had completed my course in cosmetology, there was a clause which said that one was not complete in work in cosmetology, unless he was a expert in haircut cutting. And so I reminded veteran administration that I had not been properly trained because I was not committed to cut hair on account of a state law. And Louisiana said that one could not cut hair unless he had a barber license. So they decided that they will permit me to have this barber training, provided I knew where I wanted to go or what school. The barber that I knew at that time was from Memphis, Tennessee. He was outstanding. And so he directed me to Barton's Barber College in Memphis, Tennessee in the heart of Beale Street.	18:34
Marcus Lyons	When I first arrived there, I didn't know anyone, but I remained there and received my training. And after completing the barber course, I was immediately consulted concerning becoming a barber college dean, to open up the head of credentials for the school to open. So I was persuaded to stay a while longer if I would help to open this particular school known as Lumpkins Barber College.	19:47
Michele Mitchell	This is 1940s.	20:30
Alma Lyons	1946.	20:30
Michele Mitchell	And you were telling me that it was the largest barber college of it kind in the country?	20:38
Marcus Lyons	It was. And all the veterans would attend this particular school in this particular area. And people would come from different sections to this barber college. And I became dean of this barber college and remained there for a number of years. Then I attended Le Moyne College. And after completing my course in 1953, I was appointed in the public school system as a teacher.	20:43
Michele Mitchell	In Cosmetology, right?	21:43
Marcus Lyons	No, not this school.	21:44
Michele Mitchell	Which school did you teach at?	21:54
Marcus Lyons	This was, yeah, Kansas Street School.	21:54
Michele Mitchell	Kansas Street?	22:01
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, Kansas Street Elementary School.	22:03
Michele Mitchell	Was this here in New Orleans?	22:05
Marcus Lyons	No, Memphis, Tennessee, Kansas City.	22:05
Michele Mitchell	This is before Brown versus Board of Education, so it was an all Colored school.	22:23
Marcus Lyons	Oh yes, all Colored school. And this is this the public school system CFO.	22:28
Michele Mitchell	Were you happy with the sort of materials that the students had?	22:32
Marcus Lyons	Yes, I was to a certain degree because the students were very enthusiastic. They wanted to learn. They were eager to learn. And they could learn. They were so thrilled. We worked together as a unit. And they also won several prizes for being outstanding at a school and for their participation. And it was probably one of the most outstanding thrills that I had in teaching school because of the ability of the students to be a tenant and wanting to learn and to achieve. I directed the traffic for the school and we did a tremendous job and we didn't have any serious accidents or things of that nature. Later, I received an appointment to come to New Orleans, Louisiana, to the Booker T. Washington Senior High School in the cosmetology department, in 1954.	22:42
Michele Mitchell	There you taught cosmetology and this is—	24:29
Marcus Lyons	Before I accepted the appointment at Booker T. Washington Senior High School, I had to break my contract in Memphis, Tennessee, with the public school system because that was the proper way to do things because they used a year by year contract and I had signed, so I had to break and they had to do things in a proper manner. And then I accepted the position at Washington School after that. That superintendent didn't want to relieve me from that system because he said he thought I had done so much for the system there and I was much needed there. So I told him I was still needed in New Orleans too, and I would be with my family. And so he finally consented to relieve me or release me to accept the position at Washington School. And I remained there, and also became the chairman of the cosmetology department for a number of years before my retirement from the public school system of New Orleans, Louisiana.	24:32
Michele Mitchell	And which year did you retire yourself?	25:45
Marcus Lyons	1980.	25:48
Marcus Lyons	We were committed to take our students to take the state board examination at Baton Rouge, Louisiana. And we had a tremendous assessment. Most of all of our students would pass the state board of cosmetic therapy, some with their practical course and their theoretical course in the teacher's training course.	25:58
Michele Mitchell	I'm wondering, since you both taught so long here in New Orleans, what was it like in the '60s when the school started to desegregate? Did that affect either one of you?	26:29
Marcus Lyons	No, it did not.	26:41
Michele Mitchell	The enrollments didn't change, the schools— They did change. Did they shrink a little bit? Did they?	26:51
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:27:10].	26:59
Marcus Lyons	Predominantly.	26:59
Alma Lyons	Predominantly Black. So we were not [indistinct 00:27:23], except that the district was city wide. [indistinct 00:27:31]. But as the population grew and the city grew, the district became small. But it still [indistinct 00:27:42].	26:59
Michele Mitchell	And you told me it was open in 1942?	27:45
Michele Mitchell	If you don't mind, I'd like to, there's one question that ever since you showed me the yearbook from barber's college, I was wondering why so many veterans went there? That's interesting, a lot of veterans got out of the Army Ann went to barber college.	27:54
Marcus Lyons	Memphis, Tennessee was centrally located for the veterans in that particular area such as Tennessee and Mississippi and surrounding states. And it was predominantly for veterans. And it was on such a high level that we were able to maintain such high standards, and that's why we were able to expand and serve so many people in that particular area, both male and female. But it was predominantly male.	28:14
Michele Mitchell	Where was the school located?	28:54
Marcus Lyons	Located in Memphis, Tennessee, on Mississippi Boulevard.	28:56
Michele Mitchell	Mississippi Boulevard.	29:01
Marcus Lyons	Yeah. In Memphis, Tennessee.	29:02
Michele Mitchell	Was it located in— Because when I was in Durham, I found out about this beauty college called [indistinct 00:29:12]. That was in a really thriving Black business district. Was Mississippi Boulevard—	29:06
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yes.	29:18
Michele Mitchell	— a Black business district.	29:18
Marcus Lyons	Yes. One of the main one district that they had in Tennessee in that particular, Memphis, Tennessee, that area. Not too far from where Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated.	29:19
Michele Mitchell	Oh, I know that area.	29:36
Marcus Lyons	Yeah. See, Lamont College too, all that's in that particular area. This Lorraine Hotel. And not too far from Beal Street. I can see it in there.	29:36
Michele Mitchell	Because it's just sort of right off Downtown.	29:50
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, that's frightening. That seemed like a gate where sit here. The Memphis, Tennessee at that time was called a Bluff City because it sits on the hill and that's what they call it, the Bluff City.	29:52
Michele Mitchell	Did both of you enjoy living in Memphis? Was it something that you liked more than New Orleans? Or about the same?	30:09
Marcus Lyons	I loved living in Tennessee at that particular time because it meant so much to me to change my life and it helped me to receive the type of training that I needed to go forward, and having the kind of wife and family relationship. Then later we were able to be together as husband and wife in New Orleans, Louisiana to become teachers at the same school. And we were able to work together harmoniously. And I could help to train my family because the way I was living at that particular time, my family didn't know me because of having to travel. The only time we could see each other is by use the transportation of the Panama Unlimited. My wife would come to send me on various holidays or vice versa. That's the way we could see each other.	30:20
Marcus Lyons	And we had to use that method until I was appointed to Booker T. Washington Senior High School, which made a tremendous change. I have enjoyed it immensely because it brought me closer to my family and better relationship. And we were able to achieve more to train our children. I have three girls, three daughters, and all have received their elementary, junior high school, high school training and also complete their college work. And one of them have a master's in social work from Tulane University.	31:24
Michele Mitchell	You must very, very proud of all of them. Their names are, Liolet, Elma and Marcellina.	32:11
Alma Lyons	No, Liolet, Alicia.	32:11
Michele Mitchell	Alicia?	32:11
Marcus Lyons	Yeah. Liolet, Alicia and Marcellina. Marcellina is the last, just came in two weeks ago. [indistinct 00:32:41]. So all three of them completed their college work.	32:11
Michele Mitchell	What year were they born?	32:11
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:32:59].	32:11
Michele Mitchell	I know that you had a—	32:11
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:33:29].	32:11
Marcus Lyons	Yes, please.	32:11
Alma Lyons	I had a [indistinct 00:33:40].	32:11
Alma Lyons	And some of the other accommodations, well, he were concerned. For instance, [indistinct 00:33:53].	32:11
Michele Mitchell	Was it Overton?	32:11
Marcus Lyons	Over-T-O-N.	32:11
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:34:28]. And we could use later on they did. But even in Memphis, Tennessee, that whole day that was given, I noticed they always clean the pool on the day that we [indistinct 00:34:48]. During the same period that we were not able to ride on the [indistinct 00:34:57].	34:35
Marcus Lyons	You were permitted to do so.	34:56
Alma Lyons	To ride [indistinct 00:35:12].	34:57
Michele Mitchell	At least one day. Do you feel the same way about shopping indoors between Memphis and New Orleans or—	35:22
Alma Lyons	We didn't have much money to shop. We went to the grocery and I would always ask, "How much? Is this a pound?" [indistinct 00:35:44]. People are opening the eyes of other people. They just pick up what they want and tell them, [indistinct 00:35:53]. You coming here asking, "How much? Is this a pound? What does this weigh? And all of that." He didn't like it.	35:28
Marcus Lyons	No. They didn't like him either.	35:28
Alma Lyons	He said, "Let me go, let me do the shopping." Because I didn't get a damn thing.	35:28
Marcus Lyons	They would become—	35:28
Alma Lyons	Because I wanted to know what I was getting for my money. "What does this cost?" That would determine whether or not I could afford it. And if I thought it cost too much for what I was getting, I didn't buy it.	35:28
Michele Mitchell	What you do.	35:28
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:36:35].	35:28
Marcus Lyons	I'll probably add this, in Tennessee that the educational system is much stricter than it is in the New Orleans public schools, the requirements and the standards are much higher.	36:36
Michele Mitchell	Really? Even back in—	36:52
Marcus Lyons	Oh yeah. The things they do here now. They shouldn't do it in Tennessee. They wasn't permitted. Some were even higher. They're very strict about it. They don't care how good you supposed to be in your work, you had to maintain those high standards.	36:52
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:36:54]. A lot of churches were local. I did visit [indistinct 00:36:54] from home. People were very highly trained, they were well-trained. And I had [indistinct 00:36:54] off the wall.	36:53
Marcus Lyons	The president of Universal Life Insurance Company, well, he was a member of this church Simple Life, I was affiliated with while I was there.	36:53
Alma Lyons	Also, the minister on Mississippi Boulevard.	36:53
Marcus Lyons	Exactly. Mississippi Boulevard.	36:53
Alma Lyons	Church of Christ.	36:53
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, Church of Christ.	36:53
Alma Lyons	Church of Christ. He was—	36:53
Marcus Lyons	Excellent.	36:53
Alma Lyons	I mean [indistinct 00:38:36]. Different atmosphere [indistinct 00:38:47].	39:00
Alma Lyons	"Stop your whining," because he knew he was back from the White camp. But he treated us with dignity.	39:00
Marcus Lyons	That's right.	39:03
Michele Mitchell	That's appropriate.	39:03
Alma Lyons	And the membership is very long. It's very tiring and [indistinct 00:39:22]. If it was a new family, he was [indistinct 00:39:26]. A brand-new family, they just sit down.	39:03
Marcus Lyons	Ant that they'd accept us.	39:03
Alma Lyons	And I've been very well. I've done well. It wouldn't have been very comfortable. We were in back of it. But I had my mother here and my father passed and he only left [indistinct 00:39:46]. She would've been alone and I couldn't get her to come near Memphis. She never would visit. She never visited until we come here right in her home. [indistinct 00:40:04]. So I couldn't leave her alone after my father passed.	39:36
Marcus Lyons	My wife has been honored by her sorority for being outstanding and making outstanding contributions at [indistinct 00:40:37] University. Very largely attended.	40:20
Marcus Lyons	She has been an inspiration to me and to my entire family. That is one of the causes or reasons why I was able to be as successful as I think I've been, because of her supporting me to the fullest extent. Permitting me to go back to school after being married until, get to maintain a degree. They have helped to elevate me and to lift me into high levels of the field of cosmetology. Sometimes I'm called Mr. Cosmetology because of the type of accomplishment that I have made and used throughout the United States, even in Nassau, Bahamas and other places.	40:38
Michele Mitchell	When did you travel to The Bahamas?	41:45
Marcus Lyons	I traveled to The Bahamas on three different occasions. And each time it was an inspiration to me because I was able to— I went by boat the first time. The second trip I went by a plane. On the third trip, I went by motor. I leave my car and go to The Bahamas because it was just about— Go over to my go to Miami, Florida and then we take the plane out of the boulevard. It was interesting to see how the people live, and how the mode of transportation, and how the small children would swim the Atlantic Ocean. We throw the money into the water and they would dive, get the money. And they do the calypso for you as a matter of entertainment. But they were expert swimmers. And this was enlightening to me to see how they would use whatever they could in order to entertain you. They got some money. And at the same time it was outstanding to see how they develop their skills and how they commercialize on them too.	41:55
Michele Mitchell	You belong to lots of organizations. You're incredibly busy.	43:38
Michele Mitchell	Yeah, you. You're member of several fraternal, professional and [indistinct 00:44:07] organizations.	43:38
Marcus Lyons	Yes. I happen to be a member of Sigma Fraternity. I'm also a member of Sigma Nu Theater Fraternity.	44:08
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:44:33].	44:27
Marcus Lyons	Huh? Sigma Nu Theater happened to be [indistinct 00:44:36].	44:32
Michele Mitchell	I see.	44:35
Marcus Lyons	Sigma Nu Theater Fraternity I happen to be probably one of the [indistinct 00:44:52].	44:36
Michele Mitchell	And this looks like, was this for a big—	44:50
Marcus Lyons	Well, this was the National Institute of Cosmetology. See, they have a sorority and a fraternity.	44:58
Michele Mitchell	Okay.	45:03
Marcus Lyons	Yes, I was in here.	45:11
Michele Mitchell	For the National—	45:11
Marcus Lyons	Institute of Cosmetologist.	45:11
Michele Mitchell	I had no idea about that.	45:11
Marcus Lyons	Oh yeah.	45:12
Marcus Lyons	Now this picture was taken at the, I'm not in this picture, but this at the Sherman Hotel Chicago, Illinois Institute, July 20th to August 3rd, 1963. This was in that particular era. And the fraternity was organized just a little bit before that because I happened to be one of the advisors for that fraternity. [indistinct 00:45:48].	45:12
Michele Mitchell	This is a historian dream of people saying things that are meaningful in their life. This is really wonderful. (laughs)	45:51
Michele Mitchell	And Mrs. Lyons, your husband said that you belong to a sorority.	45:56
Alma Lyons	Alpha Gamma [indistinct 00:46:14].	46:13
Michele Mitchell	Alpha Gamma.	46:22
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:46:23].	46:22
Michele Mitchell	And this is in [indistinct 00:46:25].	46:22

Michele Mitchell	But not tomorrow, right?	0:02
Alma Lyons	Why? He [indistinct 00:00:04].	0:04
Marcus Lyons	Here's one of the graduating classes that are— This is 1962. This was held in Chicago, Illinois, but this picture was taken, we were I think within Los Angeles, California because it was an opportunity that I directed their graduation for a number of years.	0:08
Michele Mitchell	And the NBCL—	0:31
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, National Beauty Culturists' League, Incorporated. These are some of the activities and some of the classes and we see the boys all do the hat making. You can do anything that you wanted to do. It was complete, there's millinery.	0:31
Michele Mitchell	Millinery too?	1:39
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yeah. Weaving hair, [indistinct 00:01:40] this is the most I've seen in all the room. We used models and things of that nature. I don't know no other organization that seen something like that.	1:39
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:01:40] whatever they seen.	1:39
Michele Mitchell	The fashion center?	1:39
Marcus Lyons	That's right.	1:39
Michele Mitchell	I had no idea.	1:39
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yeah this is it.	1:39
Michele Mitchell	And you said that you've got a representative from Ultra Sheen here?	1:39
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yes from all— In other words, from everything. Revlon and everything.	1:39
Alma Lyons	Just go to hotels and it's, you know, [indistinct 00:01:40].	1:39
Marcus Lyons	They did all your styles and everything. You have people who really were in those particular fields and see wherever the convention was going to be here, they always used to go to the outstanding universities and get their instructors from there. At first, there was another thing that used to take place. At first when we first started out, we used to bus our students to the university, but they changed that. They changed that so that they let the instructors come to the hotel and we have classes in the hotel so that they wouldn't have to transfer them back and forth like that, see? It was better than nothing and we would use all part of the largest type of hotels. So there couldn't be no, sometimes we use two and three hotels. And the schools to host, you know what I mean? So, that was a big difference that took place.	1:39
Marcus Lyons	It seems that when it would come here, they wouldn't send out students out to Tulane University. Let the instructors come to the Belmont Hotel or to whatever hotel was there. And I mean, we used the whole hotel as our classroom, you know, for things of that nature. And Lord, it's not no little— I mean, at that time it was—	2:28
Michele Mitchell	Major event here?	2:47
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yes. It set the tone for periods for, I would say cosmetologists. They'd send me national students of cosmetologists and they'd say that she wanted the field of cosmetology here. And they would just, regardless of what— I would stand there, I don't care what country you were from, whatnot. You can still get the hair weaving and whatnot.	2:51
Marcus Lyons	So, I don't know anybody in this particular area or anywhere in the country that's [indistinct 00:03:20] because I'm Colored, but White or Black who had that type of experience that I've had working with a national organization. I worked with them on a local level. See, I've been the president of beauty; I'm a member of Beauticians Local Number One, that happened to be an affiliate of the Louisiana State Beauticians Association Incorporated that is a member of the National Beauty Culturists' League. Incorporated.	3:07
Michele Mitchell	Is it like a union? No?	3:50
Alma Lyons	It's just like, people of the Beauticians Local, that's local, local. Like you all.	3:50
Michele Mitchell	Oh, okay.	3:50
Marcus Lyons	It's just like a fraternity, in other words.	3:50
Alma Lyons	And then there's the state, the state of Louisiana—	3:50
Michele Mitchell	And then the national.	3:50
Alma Lyons	The national.	3:50
Marcus Lyons	It's just like the fraternities that you have your chapters and you have the, the way it was, I was at the local level, state level. I been a register for the state, and I been the president of Beauticians' Local Number One. I've been the president of that organization. And I've also been the dean of the Louisiana State Beauticians, and also the registrar. I served as the registrar for them. Now, for the national I've served as an advisor, assistant dean, a dean, and director of graduation. I served in most capacities. That's why there's so many throughout the United States because we see the travel around and all of them are members. I guess I've graduated with—	4:12
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:05:12]. He was the secretary, registrar. Yeah, I just been going to college and can't get along that way.	5:17
Marcus Lyons	And I directed the graduation, see the people would fly in from different parts of the United States and those who were eligible for graduation, well they would come under my administration and that's what I had to get them ready for them to seat, their seating arrangement and get the degrees ready and everything. You see, everything is all set. In other words, I was charge of the whole thing; seating arrangement and seeing if the diplomas were in their respective areas like the BS degrees, the Masters degrees and the Doctorate degrees. And to see that, arrange for the faculty, where they're going to sit. And where the National Institute, the teachers who taught in that particular institute are going to sit. And then well the public sit anywhere, but that's my job to all, you know.	5:22
Michele Mitchell	Since we've been coming, there's a lot of wisdom, seeing a lot of the stuff of those times.	6:05
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yeah.	6:05
Michele Mitchell	I'm sort of stunned at how large it is.	6:05
Marcus Lyons	Oh, yes. It's large. You see pictures and that's not really it. I mean it's not no [indistinct 00:06:31].	6:30
Michele Mitchell	And these are different states?	6:33
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, that's right. They're people of different states and different countries, yeah. See, you see people all over the United States. They have their different chapters and whatnot, they have their different classes and whatnot. See how those who are going to graduate and these are working through to graduate here.	6:35
Alma Lyons	[indistinct 00:07:24].	6:54
Marcus Lyons	Dedicated.	6:54
Alma Lyons	And you know, people seem to be more selfish than what he is, so.	6:54
Marcus Lyons	Yeah, personal.	6:54
Alma Lyons	He represents to this.	6:54
Marcus Lyons	To expand in it.	6:54
Alma Lyons	Yeah, take care. And give out the outreach. It used to be very small and niche.	6:54
Michele Mitchell	Why do you think that is?	6:54
Alma Lyons	A lot of people, they love—	6:54
Marcus Lyons	And they're certainly not as dedicated.	6:54
Alma Lyons	I was talking to someone yesterday, and he's telling me about— Oh, I told you, I said I went to a funeral yesterday morning and I sat by one of the masons. You know, and I was in there by myself and [indistinct 00:08:21]. And he was saying the same thing. He was observing the same thing. Yes, I complimented him on the lecture that he gave and he said, "You know, I did that because the lady [indistinct 00:08:41]. And most of the time when we are closing up the [indistinct 00:08:52], when we talk about Black history, we feature a man most of the time." He says, "But I like to reach out and get some of our great women." And that's, I think you know, the wonderful things that he said about Harriet and he says, "She was such a strong, powerful woman. Yes, she walked with a limp, but it never stalled her in her activities and movement. She handled it, she walked up [indistinct 00:08:52]. That was her purpose walk, you see?"	8:51
Michele Mitchell	Mm-hmm.	8:51
Alma Lyons	But she was really a strong woman, and with a brilliant mind, you know? And he said, "I've learned so much talking with her, and inspiring other women to use their talents, use their strengths to help others." He said, "There are older women who are more concerned."	8:51
Alma Lyons	And I thought about my grandmother, because I remember two separate generations through my great-grandmother, to our great-grandchildren, you see? And I know how my grandmother was, my great-grandmother. All of us were close to our great-grandmothers and still. And whenever my grandmother cooked, she cooked a whole lot of food. And it was her pride and her joy. We'd be playing under the pecan trees— This is in Mobile, Alabama I'm talking about now. But my grandmother, it was her pride and joy to feed all of us. She didn't have any picks, she didn't have any choosers. Nobody she was going to omit or leave out. She wanted everybody to eat and everybody could have a plate.	9:40
Alma Lyons	And that was just proof of our people like, during slavery, our children. As my uncle said, "I'm going to feed you a feast." And we came up like that in my neighborhood.	10:15
Michele Mitchell	This was in Mobile?	10:46
Alma Lyons	What I just told you, but I'm saying here, right here in New Orleans, I grew up in the [indistinct 00:10:55] of New Orleans and we were the same way. Now, my neighbors, I had Baptist neighbors on one side of our house, and on the other side, we had Catholic neighbors. But we all were like one family in that block and on that square. So much so, some had gates cut through the fence so you didn't have to go outside to go the neighbors. You just went through the side fence, or you went to the back fence.	10:48
Alma Lyons	For an instance, my neighbor whose side yard formed the boundary for our backyard had a stable right at the end of their lot. They had a key lot, those were narrow lots. We called them key lots. 25 feet wide and 100 feet deep or maybe 114 feet deep. We used to call them key lots; 114 feet deep. So it ran all the way from the front of the street, to halfway the block. But it was so narrow; it's just 25 feet wide, but it was long.	11:26
Alma Lyons	Well, right at the back was this gate. I had a neighbor round on the other corner, on the other street, he knew how to play. And that stable, when his horse would put his head out through the window, his head would be up in our backyard. Because you didn't have to observe staying so many feet from the boundary line of your neighbor then. You could build right on the line. You see? But the neighbors were close.	12:11
Alma Lyons	When our first child was born, the one in '48, we came home on Christmas Eve. She was born on the 19th and they let us come home on Christmas. 19th of December and they let us come home for Christmas. And my husband walked all the way— Now, we lived up in Carrollton, 8500 Block. He walked all the way to Canal Street trying to find milk.	12:39
Michele Mitchell	All that way?	13:15
Alma Lyons	Yeah, yeah. Every drug store he got there, he'd walk and he'd walk.	13:16
Marcus Lyons	That's right.	13:16
Alma Lyons	They told me, we have to give the bottle every two hours or give breast every two hours, but I had to alternate. Well, I didn't know that and I was in misery pain from the milk in the breast, and had to pump the milk out of the breast. And the baby was calmly staving, waiting for him to come back with the evaporated milk, which he couldn't find because he couldn't find a drugstore open.	13:30
Alma Lyons	Finally when he got to Canal and Rampart, I think [indistinct 00:13:52], he found some milk that he brought home for the baby. And the baby had cholic so bad, but the baby was so glad to get the milk. I never thought just feed the baby, just feed the baby. I was following a schedule, trying to follow a schedule. But when my neighbors came home, [indistinct 00:14:17]. When they came home, it was about 4:00 in the evening and the turkey was still standing up on the drain in the kitchen, by the sink. They said, "Oh, man. No. Alma, you had your dinner?"	13:46
Alma Lyons	"Not yet." And they were out that house so fast. The neighbor that lived next door and her sister-in-law that lived around the corner, and they came back home with dinner for all of us, Christmas dinner. Everybody had dinner, but they said, "Alma, no. What time you going to eat?" Because my mother couldn't get to come to dinner, the turkey, but she said, "You going to have your Christmas dinner."	14:18
Alma Lyons	And we were little children, those same neighbors— Nothing was just so small you couldn't have any. "Oh, yeah. You can have a taste." Take that spoon and go around back, from one spoon to another, giving everybody a taste. And one had as much as the other. Now, the same man that had the horse and you know, the stable that I was telling you about, had a vegetable. That's how he made his living. He'd sell the fruits and vegetables during the week and on Saturday evening, he had fish. So, fish and potato salad and the children used to make. That was our pride and joy, was make that potato salad for him, for Saturday night.	14:45
Alma Lyons	Now, what he would do, all the pennies that he got on Saturday night— You know pennies were popular then. Pennies and nickels, too. Pennies, nickels, and dimes. All the pennies he got, he saved them until Sunday. And every Sunday evening, all the pennies he had, he would call us all together, all around there, and he'd give each person all those pennies until the pennies ran out. And he went in a circle and everybody got a penny until the pennies ran out.	15:35
Alma Lyons	And then another highlight in our life was to ride that horse he had. He had a horse named Cora.	15:54
Michele Mitchell	What was the name again?	15:54
Alma Lyons	Cora, C-O-R-A, that you know, drew the wagon with the vegetables during the week and when he would come home, unload, take the vegetables off and fix the horse with the harness and everything. We stood up on the porch, got on the horse's back, and rode the horse from the front yard back to the stable. Oh! That was riding in the city. That was plenty happening and plenty for us.	15:55
Alma Lyons	You see now, my father and mother, they didn't have professional people, but they all put their children to college now. This same man that I'm telling you about, every one of his five kids— No, one did not go, but four of his kids went to college. He's got the one son that didn't go. And how they sent us to college, my father, I can remember at one time— I don't know if it increases now, but at one time he salvaged up $15 every two weeks. And they would be right there every two weeks because they made the money on it every year.	16:55
Alma Lyons	But every two weeks, he got $15. And how I ever went to school, they'd [indistinct 00:17:53] money.	17:33
Marcus Lyons	Let's pause. Can I offer you something to drink? I don't want you—	17:52

Item Info

Title:

Marcus Lyons (primary interviewee) and Alma Lyons interview recording, 1994 June 28

Date:

June 28, 1994

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Contributor:

Mitchell, Michele

Description:

Name: Marcus Spencer Lyons; Date of birth: 1914-02-24; Place of birth: New Orleans, LA; Occupation(s): educator; barber; Residence: New Orleans, LA. Name: Alma Williams Lyons; Date of birth: 1912-12-29; Place of birth: Mobile, AL; Occupation(s): educator; Residence: New Orleans, LA
Informant ID: 557; Informant ID: 556; Interviewed by: Michelle Mitchell.

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English

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Behind the Veil

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Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

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The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

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Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

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657faa12-261b-49e5-b3ce-93cfac0d328b
behindtheveil
bc381242-9dba-4480-88eb-67d85eafbda2
ark:/87924/r4xp76c69
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Marcus Lyons (primary interviewee) and Alma Lyons interview recording, 1994 June 28

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1. Marcus Lyons and Alma Lyons administrative file, 1994

2. Marcus and Alma Lyons slides: "Grandmother Made 100 Years Old": Grace Butler Carter is in the center, left to right is Marcus Lyons, Bessie Carter, "Mama Lou," Martha Smith, Althea Lyon and Leahlette Lyons, 1958 January 01

3. Marcus and Alma Lyons slides: 'Mrs. A. W. Lyons," faculty photo, Lion Yearbook, 1965

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Marcus Lyons (primary interviewee) and Alma Lyons interview recording, 1994 June 28

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