Michael Gourrier interview recording, 1994 August 04

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Kate Ellis	Will you state your name and when you were born?	0:02
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Michael J. Gourrier, born New Orleans, Louisiana. February third, 1940.	0:06
Kate Ellis	Okay. The first school you attended?	0:12
Michael Joseph Gourrier	The first school that I attended was Blessed Sacrament Elementary School.	0:16
Kate Ellis	Let me just get a little bit, usually what I do is I start at the beginning and get—	0:23
Michael Joseph Gourrier	You want some background?	0:27
Kate Ellis	I want some background.	0:28
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Okay. Well, I guess the most noticeable person as far as my family, Chris, is concerned, is a great uncle, my maternal—I'm sorry, my paternal grandmother's brother had a band here in New Orleans around the turn of the century. He was one of the society bands that were real common here in New Orleans during that particular period. His name was John Robshow and he played the violin and he was the lead of his band and was one of the popular bands that were here in the city. And I guess as a result of this type of association, a seed of music appreciation was planted in our family because from my earliest remembrance, we've had an exposure to music in the family in the house, and then also having the opportunity to be exposed to music in the community. One of the assets of coming up here in New Orleans was having a resource of the Xavier University Opera Association.	0:29
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Xavier has had a reputation for some time as a real fine music school, and during the forties, fifties, and sixties, their music department would put grand opera on. And from a small kid we got exposed to, shall we say, that particular type of music. And this is over and above the normal music that you would be exposed to here in the New Orleans area. On a personal note, I was a member of the church school choir for a number of years, and there's a popular picture that had been circulated on a regular basis during the tenure of the former mayor who served two terms, Sydney Bartholomew. He was a member of the choir and also a musician named Deacon John Moore, who's a real popular local performer. He was also in that same choir with me as we were kids coming up.	1:55
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And as I said, we were always exposed to music of a variety of types. I can remember everybody from the Ink Spots and Nat King Cole to Guy Bardo and Fred Wearing and everybody in between. And I mean, this is from a structured point of view, and we always did have an oversaturation of our local artists. New Orleans, as you know, is one of the real hotbeds as far as musical evolution from a historical perspective. So this kind of music to us was a regular occurrence, whereas some of these other forms that I mentioned were something different. And so it added variety to the spice of life.	3:15
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I first started off as far as my personal music appreciation was evolving in the—I guess I could say the middle fifties where I started to listen to other types of music with a little more intent than the regular rhythm and blues in the city. And I guess during that particular period, it was like people like Amai Jamal and Ramsey Lewis and what I call cocktail musicians. And I had a job working in the quarter. And one of the records that they had on the jukebox was attuned by a gentleman that I'm a real fond admirer of, Horace Silver.	4:12
Michael Joseph Gourrier	It was a composition of his called Senor Blues. And this broadened my horizon as far as my music appreciation as before I told you had been listening to the small trio groups but Horace Silver opened my ears to a wider perspective. And shall we say, that set the course for the style of music that I'm most appreciative of today. And that's called, was generally accepted as bebop and post bop, which was the next generation of that particular type of music.	5:05
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And with that type of background, I felt I had a good foundation to explore other types of music. And over the years I've had the opportunity to travel and actually hear a lot of musicians live and go to other places in and out of the country and have the opportunity to listen to that particular type of music. I've been doing a radio show here in New Orleans for the last twelve years, and I had worked in radio in Texas for seven years before I came here. And the main thrust of my presentations on the radio has been in the jazz venue. The main focus being on the bebop period, but then also subsequent artists who emulated and perpetuated that particular style. I do other types of music, big bands, blues, blues jazz and the like. I'm not a real big advocate of free jazz, avant garde jazz, and I'm very selective as far as vocals are concerned because it's not really one of my big favorites. Although I do have some favorite vocals. I'm a real big fan of Common McElroy and Betty Carter.	5:46
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And the stuff that Johnny Hartman did with John Coltrane, and anybody has a similar sound that's a new artist out of Kansas City. And I think I can predict big future for him. His name is Kevin Mahogany. He's shown me that he has a strong enough voice and has the ability to deliver a good jazz performance. And he's done a couple of albums. And as I said, I think that he's well on his way to being somebody that will be known in the future as one of the premier male jazz singers on the scene.	7:30
Kate Ellis	All right, let me ask you some questions.	8:13
Michael Joseph Gourrier	All right.	8:15
Kate Ellis	I want go back. Well, one of the main things I'm interested in finding out as it pertains to your life and as it pertains to this sort of music scene in New Orleans is how race relations, how Jim Crow kind of may have in some ways shaped your life, shaped the music scene in New Orleans?	8:17
Michael Joseph Gourrier	From that perspective, and you have to realize that I'm giving my own opinion of the situation.	8:46
Kate Ellis	That's all I would ask.	8:56
Michael Joseph Gourrier	New Orleans was a segregated society to an extent. It still is today. But from my perspective, music is a language that transcends all races, ethnic backgrounds and laws, whether legal or illegal. And my recollection of the particular period that you are referring to, I can say that the Kota Oakley shared about separate but equal. Well, the other areas of activity around the city as far as the housing and the general accommodations and all, they might not have been able to live up to that particular adage. But as far as music is concerned, I think that it is definitely one of that you could say was really separate but equal, if not better. In fact, a lot of the White musicians just died to have opportunity to play and set in with the Black musicians.	8:56
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Going back to the historical development, the basic innovators and originators of the idiom that we know as jazz today were people of African-American heritage. And even back before that, when you can say it was in a pre-incubatory period, during the colonial period where you had these illegitimate children that were born between unions of the current day gentry and the local women. And the majority of them were of mixed race, or as the legal limits said, one 10th to 1% Black. But there would be kids born of these unions. And in a lot of instances, these kids were afforded the opportunity to go to Europe and receive formal musical training.	10:13
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And when they came back, they encountered this problem of mixed race situation. And in order to have an avenue to vent their talent, they formed the Philharmonic Society. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but that's an organization of formerly educated musicians of African American ancestry that was active in New Orleans around the middle of the 1800s. And as the music evolved, the Civil War sort of acted as a catalyst because prior to that time, New Orleans was living in, I guess you could say the closest thing would be like a caste system.	11:23
Michael Joseph Gourrier	We had your variety of terms that they used to were assigned to people of the different racial structures. They had the Grifts, the [indistinct 00:12:36] males, the Mulattos, the Octoroons, the Quadroons, and all of these terms. And in my perspective, it's like a caste system. And each one of these caste had different stations and they provided different services, and this was their call. And you had members of these groups, like I said, that were formerly trained and they kept their own individual station. But then when the Civil War came, all that went aside and it was either one thing or the other, you were either Black or White. So there was no more variance as far as the cast were concerned. And so in effect, what you had then was you had a group of newly freed Black slaves, and then you had the group of formerly trained Blacks that had European training.	12:20
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And it was an amalgam of these particular groups, the free Black slaves and the formerly trained African Americans that evolved into what originated as the brass bands. And then subsequent to that, the further evolution of the genres. In New Orleans, in the '30s, '40s, '50s, there was no racial intermixture on a general public basis of musicians or even the people that liked the music. The Black musicians would play for the White artists. During that particular period there was out on a lakefront, there was a resort area called Milneburg, and a lot of them would play out there.	13:39
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Now, regardless of how they want to put it to you, as far as the quarter, French Quarter never really did provide that much of a setting, nor did the fabled Red Light District Storyville, because if you look at it objectively, the people in Storyville, I mean this was legal—This was prostitution. They weren't there trying to promote any bands or anything or entertain people. The most they might have is say a player piano or a solo piano player just to background music. My transactions were made and people were killing time and the like. So a lot of people are under the misconception that Storyville was a place where the bands really got started, but it wasn't actually in Storyville, but more so in the neighborhood clubs and also in the fraternal organization clubs.	14:47
Michael Joseph Gourrier	The genres, I mean, the France, these were originally organized as burial societies to make sure that when you died you had a proper barrier and you might pay anywhere from three cents a nickel to a quarter a week to belong to these organizations. And they had halls in the different neighborhoods and bands would play there. But then here again, I mean this was within the Black community.	15:56
Kate Ellis	Which is—	16:36
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And these same bands would also play at White clubs and also at the resorts on the lakefront. But it wasn't until I'd say the 1960s that you had just outright real integration as far as the musicians were concerned.	16:37
Kate Ellis	You would playing together.	17:02
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Playing together, right. You would in private establishments, if people wanted to sit in with one another, they wouldn't have to worry about the Jim Crow laws that were in effect. But as far as public places, they would always have to run the risk of somebody complaining or the police just being in a bad mood and running people in for mixing of the races.	17:04
Kate Ellis	This is something— I mean, I'm curious about that there was more of a sort of restrictions against Blacks and Whites playing in bands together, say prior to the 1960s.	17:39
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, it was just an extension of the current laws, which prohibited any type of racial intermingling.	17:58
Kate Ellis	And that did extend into bands.	18:03
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Everything. It even went into the churches.	18:06
Kate Ellis	Well, this I have heard. I mean you talk about your church.	18:15
Michael Joseph Gourrier	The churches, well, I mean, I'm a Catholic and the majority of the people here in the city are Catholic. And we have a rich Catholic tradition not only from a personal perspective, because I have a cousin that's the bishop of Baltimore. Another one of my cousins is the principal of the grammar school that I went to. After I left Blessed Sacrament, I went to Corpus Christi and she's currently the principal at Corpus Christi. And then I have a brother who is a Josephite brother. He's been in an order for twenty-five years.	18:17
Kate Ellis	Which church did you attend?	18:54
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Corpus Christi. It's down in the Seventh Ward.	18:55
Kate Ellis	Okay. Well, we haven't even talked about your coming up time, which I wanted to real quick.	19:02
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well—Oh, I was going to tell you about the churches. The churches were segregated. I mean, it wasn't a written type thing, it was just a unwritten thing. If you went to a church that wasn't in a Black parish, you just sat in the back of the church. And even the Catholic schools were segregated. And the sixties was the era of revolution and change and everything just turned around 360 degrees. And the first integrated band that I can remember was Al Belletto was the musical director at the Playboy Club. And he had Ellis Marcells and Richard Payne playing in his band down there. And from then on, it sort of just took hold and evolved.	19:12
Kate Ellis	Let me ask you something though. You had said a few minutes ago, and that it was certainly White musicians who would go to Black musicians for their innovations. It was often them turning to the house. In what venues, where could they do that? You mentioned in private now what is called—What is private, what would be a place?	20:29
Michael Joseph Gourrier	A membership type club.	20:54
Kate Ellis	In other words, where could Whites go? White musicians go to seek out Black musicians to play with them, learn from them?	20:57
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, at night, some of the White musicians would come down to some of the Black clubs. And I mean, I'll give you a classic example. Dr. John used to hang around at the Dew Drop as a kid, but it wasn't anything that anybody would make a big production about because it would cause problems. There was a potential for the people to lose their liquor license. So it really wasn't publicized. But White musicians would come to the clubs where the Black musicians played, and not specifically to play with them, but to maybe pick up techniques and phrasing and style and just general deliverance. And like I say, on occasion, the situation presented itself where this one might pull his horn out of that one might pull his horn out of it might be, like I said, at a private gig. And private property is a different situation as opposed to public performance.	21:03
Kate Ellis	So do you know how Black musicians felt about White musicians coming in to hang out? I mean, I asked them—Well, go on them and respond. I ask them, because some Black musicians I've talked to expressed a bit of resentment that Whites might pick up some of this stuff and then they might be the ones on some level that will get the credit for it.	22:21
Michael Joseph Gourrier	From my perspective, I've never met a musician who I felt would object to sharing any of his talent or art form with another musician. Personalities surely enter into these type of things. But from an objective observation, I've never felt a scene where this would be so. Now you can have the situation where you got to a poor, as they said, no playing musician, where that you don't want to be associated with. But any serious performer or advocate of the art, I've never seen where anybody would object to that. And as far as the credit. This is something that's taken for granted. I mean, people have had all types of stuff stolen from them. So it's just a thing that occurred and it has occurred, it is occurring, and it will occur. So I mean, it's not anything that you can guard against. I mean, they have the copyrights and the trademarks and all, but people can copy all they want.	22:49
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And the old cliche about mimicry is the highest farm of flattering. And when somebody is playing something and when they copying it, you can actually hear that particular performance. And I mean, if I'm a bad saxophone player and somebody wants to copy my style, and I feel very elated that they chose me to be their motto. And I think this is so in a lot of instances and situations. As far as the legal aspect of the music, and when I'm talking about legal aspect, I'm referring to copyrights and trademarks and that type of stuff. There has been a lot of injustice suffered by African American musicians. And for one thing, they had no formal knowledge in procedures and protocol in documenting their particular contributions. And then there was a lot of unscrupulous people who gave them the impression that they had their best interests at heart. And actually their motors were more greed than anything.	24:20
Kate Ellis	So these might be record producers, managers.	25:46
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah. Well, the whole gamut, whatever title that you want to ascribe to them. But those things have caused problems, bit of feelings. And to this day, there's still a lot of people that have bad taste in their mouth, not only for these charlatan type people, but also for other musicians who shall we say went along with them in the program that they were putting on over the rest of the musicians.	25:49
Kate Ellis	So you mean there might be, in other words, like a band member might be in some sense co-opted by the unscrupulous.	26:23
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Right.	26:32
Kate Ellis	So you've sort of seen that?	26:33
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I'm not going to call any names or anything like that.	26:34
Kate Ellis	Okay. You don't have to. That's the kind thing that's going way back mean as far as—	26:37
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, it's more of a contemporary. Well, I'd say in the last twenty years.	26:42
Kate Ellis	That's the thing.	26:47
Michael Joseph Gourrier	But there was a lot more trust in brotherhoods, shall we say. Times have changed and people have changed.	26:48
Kate Ellis	Well, tell me about a lot them questions. I want to hear this. Well, tell me about the trust in brotherhood. I mean, obviously the period I'm interested in mostly is before integration and all of that, that obviously bears on what we're talking about. But I mean, what do you mean by the trust in brotherhood?	26:56
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, a man's word was his bond. You didn't have to have a written contract to do a gig, a performer gig or make a performance. If I told you, okay, I want you to be here and this is what the gig pays, then that's it. And it wasn't till I guess the unionization was the main proponent of this particular type of thing. But the old cliche of a man's word is this bond, this is what was the motivating factor for a lot of associations here in New Orleans. And you always did have people that took advantage of human nature and took advantage of situations that were presented to him. But for the most part, the musicians were such that you didn't have to have anything written. And that's why a lot of times, as far as the music itself, other people have taken credit for writing songs that they actually didn't write, or it has been attributed to other people who started playing them and they weren't really the originators of the music.	27:12
Kate Ellis	Well, this is what's just one thing that's interesting to me. I also talk about unionization, but you started by saying music transcends all boundaries. And that's something that on some level I have believed in. I have felt that in some sense is one of the powers of music is that so many people can respond to it on such a deep level.	28:34
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Music has no color. I mean, it's not black, it's not white, it's not red, it's not green.	28:59
Kate Ellis	But this is the thing, and what's curious to me, because you can say that and I wouldn't contradict that. And yet it seems that as far as race issues are concerned, and the stuff we've just been talking about, we're talking in the past, Black musicians being exploited by in the music business. And I guess you could say the music business is something wholly different from music itself, but it seems like there would be some— I could see how it would get complicated.	29:04
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, I mean, you not only had unscrupulous White promoters and managers and the like, but you had unscrupulous Black promoters and managers too. So I mean that particular problem extended everywhere.	29:40
Kate Ellis	What do you think about those that say that it's the White, it is mainly White people who exploited Black musicians?	30:01
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, you have to look at it from the perspective of how long has it been that Black musicians have had the opportunity to have either themselves or somebody with training to a point where they knew what to do to protect the musician as far as the copyrights and this type of stuff. Blacks have always been at a disadvantage as far as the educational system in the United States is concerned. And music business is an area that one has to be educated in order to acquire the necessary information to become prosperous in it or to even avail oneself of the—Well, what can I say. The benefits of the knowledge of the inner workings and the fine points of the music business. And I mean, like I said, plain is one thing, but dealing with the business aspect is a whole different thing. And it was a long time before Blacks were privy to the actual process of how to go about dealing with music with really.	30:22
Kate Ellis	When would that have started to take place in this area.	31:48
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, it's a difference—That now that was a good point. This area, because you have to qualify because now say in up north and in the northeast, just information and the process I would imagine started in the twenties. But because for lack of another term, the backwardness of the South, they were always behind and they were just slow in evolving. And then because of the segregation, Blacks were extra slow in being exposed and afforded the opportunity to be involved in this particular aspect. So I think this was one of the big factors as far as why everything here was, and shall we say, a later stage of development than it were other places. Because I mean, if you go back and you look at the period called the Harlem Renaissance. What were we doing down here? I guess you could say we were just one step past the menstrual shows during that particular period down here.	31:51
Kate Ellis	Although jazz—	33:32
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Right. We came of age, but our progress and development wasn't as great as it was because we were limited by the legal and social aspects of the society in which we live.	33:33
Kate Ellis	Which is one of essential interests of the project in the sense is how were Black musicians limited by things like the Jim Crow, that was everywhere. And also how did they get around those limitations as far as their own development and prosperity?	33:50
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, it was difficult to get around because the whole south practiced segregation. So unless you went to the north where these legal issues were not debated as heavily as they were here, then you didn't have to contend with it up there. Whereas here, everybody's heard of the old stories of the chiding circuit where the Black musicians would crowd in a bus or crowd in a car and go from one town to another and they'd stay at the Black motels and boarding houses because they couldn't stay in the major hotels. And I can remember another little point that I'd like to throw in from—This is something that I picked up in my research gathering, and that's something I'm constantly doing. I'm massing a real nice library because when I retire from being a psychologist, I plan to devote my time to being a jazz historian in lecture.	34:12
Kate Ellis	Oh really? I can hear that.	35:34
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And I'm in the process of getting my material together because I hope to in the next seven, eight years max, I will be doing that on a full-time basis. But this was in the fifties, it was all women's band called the Sweethearts of Rhythm, and they did have some White women that traveled with them as musicians and they were referred to as mulattos or albinos.	35:36
Kate Ellis	The White women?	36:11
Michael Joseph Gourrier	To get by the local customs relative to.	36:11
Kate Ellis	Staying separate.	36:15
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah.	36:16
Kate Ellis	Oh, I see. So they would be like, what are you all doing together? And I see.	36:17
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I'll give you the example. They used to say that Charlie Parker said that Red Rodney was albino to get him in clubs.	36:24
Kate Ellis	I see.	36:36
Michael Joseph Gourrier	But people would try all kind of subterfuges to try and accomplish an end, which actually shouldn't have been made so difficult to accomplish.	36:36
Kate Ellis	And I mean, I agree with you. And that's one of the things again, I mean that we're really interested in is what kinds of subterfuges were used. I mean, there are so many often in genius ways, often to sort of—	36:48
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, one thing as a result of the racial intermixture here in the South and New Orleans especially, that we have African-Americans roughly all shades of the rainbow. So I mean, somebody wanted to claim to be Black and say, well, hey, my grandfather was White, or whatever ingenuity you could come up with to get your situation completed with as little hardship or inconvenience as possible, then that was up to you.	37:04
Kate Ellis	Well, let me ask you something about that. And you don't have to respond if you don't want, but you're fairly light skinned. And I understand that a number of people, I mean everybody I've talked to put it this way in this who have interviews, but everybody I should say who's really light at some point has almost needed to pass as White in order to get food for their friends or to do this or to do that.	37:40
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, I'm not light enough. I'm definitely not light enough.	38:12
Kate Ellis	Really? So you've never had that?	38:12
Michael Joseph Gourrier	No, I've never had that.	38:14
Kate Ellis	Do you know people who did?	38:15
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I mean, well, of course. And like I said, they're African Americans of all shades of the rainbow. And from their features, you could never tell. My wife is from Texas and we moved down here in 1982, and she's still amazed to this day that she cannot discern fair-complected, some fair-complected Blacks from Caucasians. And I mean, they have some that you can look at them and you'll say, well—And I can remember when I was in undergraduate school, I saw this lady across the quadrangle and I asked somebody, I said, I thought this was a school for Black and Indians.	38:16
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And they say it is. I said, well, look at that woman over that. She ain't Black. They said, yes, she is. And it's a small warehouse. She subsequently came to be my brother's sister in law because one of my brothers married her younger sister. And to this day she still looks White to me. And in her state of age, she looks like a typical old White woman. Her skin is wrinkled and she's got gray hair. If I didn't know who she was, I'd say, well—But from the aspects of genes, they got some people that there's no way that you could tell what their roots or heritage were.	39:02
Kate Ellis	But as far as musicians are concerned, if they did want to play, if they did want to bring a White guy in or somebody or a White woman in, they may just sometimes say, well, whatever. Their ancestors—	39:54
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Whatever. Yeah.	40:06
Kate Ellis	That's actually been a really interesting thing about New Orleans is hearing about that kind of range.	40:12
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, I think that Mr. Dejan will be able to give you a far greater insight into that, Harold Dejan. Because his health has not been too good in recent years, but his band is one of the original bands from the late 1800s, the Olympia Brass Band, and he's been playing a long time. It's unfortunate that you didn't get the opportunity to talk to one of our real unique individuals, Mr. Danny Barker, who just died a couple of months ago. But Danny was a walking encyclopedia. He could tell you—And he would punctuate his stories with little anecdotes about situations and occurrences that he had encountered over his life in music.	40:17
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And it was really a joy just to listen to him, relate experiences that he had been associated with over his life, because he lived up in New York for a number of years, and then he moved back home and he became real active in the movement to educate young kids. And he was one of the real strong advocates of the Renaissance of the Brass Band because it was really going down because there were less and less people following that particular style. And now there are anywhere from fifteen to twenty brass bands and the majority of them are traveling throughout the world. And there's been—As I mentioned before, a Renaissance, there's been a rebirth of interest in the brass bands and the New Orleans Jazz Heritage Foundation, of which I'm a board member, sponsors the Heritage School of Music, which is under the directorship of Sir Edward Kid Jordan.	41:24
Kate Ellis	Oh, yeah.	42:39
Michael Joseph Gourrier	And it's a project that we wholeheartedly support because what it does is take inner city kids and offers them the opportunity to have formal music instruction and thereby plant a seed for potential development of our next generation of musicians.	42:42
Kate Ellis	I want to ask you a little bit about your own growing up. And then actually stuff that you've been saying, but before I do that, let me finish something with you about this. I'm curious about what you were saying about the benevolent organizations and I know that they have been many Black communities, a real central part of the community as far as helping to provide healthcare and things like that, that weren't—	43:06
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, not so much healthcare. Like I said, these were benevolent. They actually took care more. I cannot say just burial societies, but they eventually evolved into I guess a more contemporary term would be social and pleasure club, but these evolved from the burial societies that were common here in the 1800s and early 1900s.	43:34
Kate Ellis	Well, can you tell me a little bit more what you know about how bands or music within them, what evolved out of them, out of the benevolence as well?	44:07
Michael Joseph Gourrier	No, no, I didn't say they evolved. The bands would perform at their halls. That was one of the venues that the bands would perform at.	44:18
Kate Ellis	And thereby they would gain more exposure.	44:30
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Right.	44:32
Kate Ellis	Okay. I see. That was the kind of place where they could do that. And so that's interesting. Okay. As far as your own background, where were you raised? What community did you come up in?	44:40
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, I was born in the 13th Ward. It's a section of uptown New Orleans. It's near the Mississippi River, and it's also the spawning place for the New Orleans's most famous contemporary musical family, the Neville Brothers. They come from that neighborhood. And when I was eight years old, we moved downtown to the Seventh Ward. And the Seventh Ward was—I guess from going back to that caste system type thing we were talking about, it was the central area where there was a high concentration of what were called Creoles during that particular period. And I can remember that there was a lady that lived on the corner of our house actually established an organization called the New Orleans Creole Fiesta Association.	45:00
Kate Ellis	The New Orleans—	46:12
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Creole Fiesta Association.	46:14
Kate Ellis	What was that about?	46:20
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, it was a— Guess you could say it was a glorified social club, but the people, they would dress up and they would—	46:32

Michael Joseph Gourrier	Black southern belles in their southern attire, the wide hoop skirts, and they would do the dances that had been passed on, the Bamboula and the Kalinda and the other folk dances that had been brought over from Africa and had developed here in the States. And basically the primary objective of the organization was to maintain that particular tradition and keep it from going the way of a lot of things like the dinosaurs just going by the wayside. There's no memory, no recollection or no reminder of it.	0:04
Kate Ellis	In a sense, to preserve what they would consider their cultural heritage.	0:56
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Exactly. Exactly.	1:00
Kate Ellis	Now why was it Creole?	1:04
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Okay, the Creole, that term is a very bandied term. Everybody uses it. Everybody's got a definition. But from the Black perspective, a Creole was an African-American that had a cast, C-A-S-T skin color.	1:07
Kate Ellis	With a cast?	1:38
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Of a paper bag or lighter.	1:38
Kate Ellis	Oh okay. (laughs) Is that what a Creole is to you?	1:47
Michael Joseph Gourrier	That's my perspective, yeah. Because I'm not going to going delve into the racial heritage about whether you one thirty-second or two-thirds or one-eighth or one-fourth or fifty percent.	1:49
Kate Ellis	For you, it's about skin color.	2:03
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah, that's basically what it is.	2:06
Kate Ellis	Well, let me ask you what you call yourself.	2:08
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I've never really had to answer that, but I guess from a heritage point of view, I'm a Seventh Ward Creole. That would be what I would be categorized as. Anybody ever told you about the Paper Bag and Fan?	2:11
Kate Ellis	I heard about the— did the Autocross Club put the paper bag up there?	2:32
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah, the Paper Bag and Fan Club.	2:37
Kate Ellis	What's the fan? I'm not sure.	2:37
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, the fan had to be able to blow through your hair and you had to be the color of the paper bag or brighter.	2:39
Kate Ellis	I'm not sure I knew about the fan part. That's interesting.	2:47
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah, fan and paper bag.	2:50
Kate Ellis	Do you think this Creole Fiesta Association, would that have been a group that might have—	2:54
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, actually I think it was more of just a little local organization because if you broaden it out, and I mean with my interests in just not only music but the genealogical development of situations, I've seen Creoles and, like I say, the term can be used any way that you want to use it. If you look in the dictionary, they say one thing. People have their own perception of things. I've seen Creoles that were black as my shoes and had, say, hair like Indians, straight, coal-black hair. There was no African features to their hair. These people, from my perspective, they could be considered Creoles. Over in western Louisiana, they do have what you can consider Black Creoles. These are people with African features and they have these, or at least African colorings, but they have non-African features, even from a keener nose and straight hair, as opposed to coarse hair. That's a term that I say its time has come and gone.	3:00
Kate Ellis	Right, yeah. Actually it's interesting because that's one of the first things that we learned when we got here was just this question, what is a Creole?	4:30
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah, and everybody's got a different definition.	4:36
Kate Ellis	Right. For some people, for some, it's like, who cares? I don't want to bother with the labels.	4:45
Michael Joseph Gourrier	For some people, it can be an embarrassment, because they can get red in the face. "I don't know," this type of stuff.	4:46
Kate Ellis	Really? So it can be a sensitive topic sometimes.	4:51
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yes. Well, racial conversation, depending on the intent of the people conversing about it, can be quite sensitive. Whereas if you objective and you just garnering general information, there should be no problem. But like I said, the intent, and that intent means a whole lot as far as everything is concerned.	4:54
Kate Ellis	You mean the intent of the people in the conversation?	5:32
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Right. If they have ulterior or derogatory motives in their racial discussion.	5:32
Kate Ellis	I see. It can almost be a political question, when you say to somebody, "How do you identify yourself racially?"	5:40
Michael Joseph Gourrier	It's like, you don't discuss sex and politics because they're too controversial and some people can get highly emotional. It's the same way, I think that race can be included in that particular situation also.	5:46
Kate Ellis	Yeah. Okay. So Seventh Ward—	6:03
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Can we start wrapping it up?	6:07
Kate Ellis	Okay. You want to—Okay. Let me just get a couple things about as far as, actually we can start with the family history, and I'll get it that way, as far as you came up in the Seventh Ward. Well, let me ask it this way with these questions. You have to answer these anyways. Okay. First of all, how do you want your name to appear in written documents?	6:08
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Michael J. Gourrier.	6:37
Kate Ellis	Okay, so J. You're married. What is your wife's name?	6:49
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Eloise. E-L-O-I-S-E.	6:53
Kate Ellis	What's her maiden?	6:58
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Chinn, C-H-I-N-N.	7:01
Kate Ellis	Did she take your last name?	7:04
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yes.	7:05
Kate Ellis	And her date of birth?	7:09
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Five fourteen, '37.	7:12
Kate Ellis	Where was she born?	7:17
Michael Joseph Gourrier	She was born in Galveston County, Texas.	7:17
Kate Ellis	And what's her occupation?	7:17
Michael Joseph Gourrier	She's a registered nurse. This is the same thing. It's the city and the county is the same name.	7:26
Kate Ellis	That's fine.	7:34
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Okay.	7:34
Kate Ellis	Yeah, that's fine. Your mother's name?	7:39
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Edna Ricard. R-I-C-A-R-D. Oh, you want her—	7:39
Kate Ellis	Her maiden? Ricard is her maiden?	7:39
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Her maiden name, right. R-I-C-A-R-D.	7:48
Kate Ellis	And is that, well, does she have a middle name that you know?	7:51
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Miriam.	7:53
Kate Ellis	M-I—	7:53
Michael Joseph Gourrier	R-I-A-M.	7:53
Kate Ellis	Okay. When was she born?	8:02
Michael Joseph Gourrier	November the seventeenth. I have to figure the age of her. 1916.	8:05
Kate Ellis	Is she still living?	8:19
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yes.	8:19
Kate Ellis	Where was she born?	8:22
Michael Joseph Gourrier	She was born here in New Orleans.	8:33
Kate Ellis	Okay. Her occupation?	8:33
Michael Joseph Gourrier	She's a retired schoolteacher.	8:33
Kate Ellis	Okay. Where did she teach?	8:33
Michael Joseph Gourrier	She taught in Orleans Parish public school system.	8:39
Kate Ellis	Which school, or all over?	8:47
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I think that she spent the longest period of time at Valena C. Jones Grammar School.	8:47
Kate Ellis	Okay. Your father's first—	8:55
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Alfred James.	8:56
Kate Ellis	His—	9:10
Michael Joseph Gourrier	May the seventh 19—Seven years, '09. 1909.	9:10
Kate Ellis	1909. Is he still living?	9:12
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yes, he's still living.	9:17
Kate Ellis	Where was he born?	9:17
Michael Joseph Gourrier	He was born here.	9:17
Kate Ellis	So y'all go way back there.	9:20
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Right.	9:21
Kate Ellis	His occupation?	9:21
Michael Joseph Gourrier	United States Navy, retired.	9:21
Kate Ellis	Navy retiree. Okay. Do you have any siblings?	9:21
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Nine. Eight, well, there's nine of us total. I have eight brothers and sisters.	9:43
Kate Ellis	Can you tell me their names, and if you remember when they're born or if you know how old they are, that's great.	9:47
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Alfred George. Maycarol. M-A-Y-C-A-R-O-L. C-A-R-O-L.	9:52
Kate Ellis	C-A-R-O-L. Okay.	10:05
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Ann Marie, A-N-N. Ricardo, R-I-C-A-R-D-O. Maurice, M-A-U-R-I-C-E. Assunta, A-S-S-U-N-T-A. Kevin, and Francis.	10:10
Kate Ellis	Do you know, if you tell me their ages, I can figure out the years that they were born. Oh, before I ask you that, what order are you in this?	10:38
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I'm the oldest.	10:47
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay. Number one.	10:53
Michael Joseph Gourrier	They're in order. That's the order. I said them in order.	10:54
Kate Ellis	Okay.	11:26
Michael Joseph Gourrier	He was born two ten, '43.	11:26
Kate Ellis	And these are all in New Orleans, right?	11:26
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Right. I think she was born one ten, '45.	11:26
Kate Ellis	If you don't remember the birthday, but you think you know the year.	11:26
Michael Joseph Gourrier	She was born in '46.	11:27
Kate Ellis	Okay.	11:27
Michael Joseph Gourrier	He was born September of '48. September of '48. He was born in '50. '52, '54, and '57.	11:35
Kate Ellis	Okay. Do you have any children? What are their names?	11:49
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Steven, S-T-E-V-E-N. Christopher, Jonathan, and Joseph.	12:02
Kate Ellis	Oh, four boys.	12:18
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Joseph Michael. Right.	12:19
Kate Ellis	When were they born?	12:22
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Steven was born November the first, 1965. Chris was born January the fifteenth.	12:23
Kate Ellis	Not sure?	12:38
Michael Joseph Gourrier	May the sixth, 1971 for the last one.	12:41
Kate Ellis	If they're somewhere between there, that's fine. [indistinct 00:12:52]	12:49
Michael Joseph Gourrier	He was born—	12:52
Kate Ellis	Okay. From New Orleans in 1962, where did you go?	12:56
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I moved to Columbus, Ohio.	13:04
Kate Ellis	Why?	13:07
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Went to graduate school.	13:07
Kate Ellis	Okay, so from 1962—	13:11
Michael Joseph Gourrier	To '64.	13:11
Kate Ellis	Okay. And then?	13:14
Michael Joseph Gourrier	From '64 to '69, I moved to Indianapolis.	13:15
Kate Ellis	Why did you go to Indianapolis?	13:19
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Job related. My ex-wife was stationed there in the Army at Fort Benjamin Harrison. That was the closest duty station she could get while I was in graduate school.	13:25
Kate Ellis	Oh, okay.	13:35
Michael Joseph Gourrier	From '69 through '82, I lived in Texas.	13:39
Kate Ellis	In Galveston.	13:46
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, I lived in a variety of cities.	13:46
Kate Ellis	In Texas. What were you doing in Texas?	13:46
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Job.	13:46
Kate Ellis	And the job you're talking about is—	13:46
Michael Joseph Gourrier	In the allied health science area. Well, I was working, doing laboratory work. My undergraduate degree was in medical technology. The main job that I had when I was in Texas was with the United States Federal Government. I worked with the department of what was called the Health, Education, and Welfare. I was the laboratory supervisor for the United States Public Health Service Hospital. Yes, I was recruited from the civil service roster to move from Indianapolis to move down to Texas and take that position. Then in '82, I moved back here to New Orleans because the hospital closed up as a result of Reaganomics, and I just got, the door closed up.	13:56
Kate Ellis	And you've been here ever since.	14:44
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Right.	14:45
Kate Ellis	Wow. You've really had, it sounds like to me, two careers.	14:45
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Oh, yeah.	14:51
Kate Ellis	That's like, it's not just your day job, obviously.	14:51
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, I wish I could, I enjoyed doing the medical work that I do, but I wish that I could derive sufficient enough remuneration from doing the music, anything in the music aspect, to devote full time to it. But it's like the musicians here, and that's something that I would like to mention here. There are more starving musicians than you can shake a stick at here. The music appreciation here in the United States is very low. I've had the opportunity just to travel overseas, and music appreciation over there is very high. It's considered as an art form as it should be. I think one of the reasons that it's not relegated to such a status here is because of a racial aspect. As I mentioned earlier in the conversation, the Blacks were the innovators and originators of this particular art form. To keep from giving them their just due and credit, it has always been relegated to an outcast or clandestine type of performance.	15:00
Michael Joseph Gourrier	In effect, that's not what it was. But that's how it was pigeonholed to keep from giving the actual acknowledgement and accolade to individuals who perpetuated and have maintained the heritage of the only original performance art form that was originated here in America. I qualified, I say performance art form because it was an original performance. The reason I do that is because I defer to the American Indian because their jewelry is an original creative art form, but it's not a performance art form per se. But jazz originated right here in America, in the United States, and it was a Black thing. It's been like every other thing that Black people have had to deal with. They've been pushed aside. They never have gotten their just due and credit. Overseas other people have had the opportunity to experience this particular art, and they appreciate it and enjoy it. It has actually been relegated to the proper and due level of appreciation and enjoyment over there, where it has not been here where it originated.	16:15
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I can't remember the quote exactly, but he's not known in his own country, something similar to that. The Europeans and the Asians are ardent jazz enthusiasts. American, or shall I say African-American jazz musicians are held in high revere and regard over in Europe and in Asia. The people are highly respective of those performances. Like I say, from my perspective, it was a racial thing. I'm real disheartened that these vestiges of racism are still prevalent. I can point to something more contemporary. I can remember a few years back when Marsalis made the cover of Time magazine, and here he was what I considered the new Messiah and the new disciple of idiom. And he's going to carry the music on into the twenty-first century.	17:45
Michael Joseph Gourrier	As a result of the interest that was generated by his performance and the exposure of new artists, I had a real strong feeling that jazz was on its comeback. But to show you how the racist society in which we live in has come up to counteract that, they have spent millions of dollars in what I call, it's not the proper term, but for lack of a better term, alternative music. They have invented this genre of music that they call rapping. To me, it's not anything of any social redeeming value, because from my perspective, rap is nothing but a debasement of people, females specifically. From my perspective, it has no social redeeming value. But I think that this was a ploy to keep the interest from continuing that had been sold by the advent and the big splash on the scene that Wynton Marsalis and his disciples had made.	19:05
Michael Joseph Gourrier	The man has made a whole lot of money, not only in the jazz venue, but also from his classical performances. He was an ideal role model where he stimulated a lot of people. We were well on the way, but then there's no interest because everybody is turned the other way because millions of dollars have been spent. I'm speaking from the insight that I have with my radio background about the money that's spent promoting this, what I call junk music as opposed to American classical music, that idiom we know as jazz. If this is not a racist type of situation, I'd like to know what it is. Because the millions of dollars that they spend on this bumpty-bump and noise and hoopla and the small amount of money that's spent for jazz, I'd like to know what it is.	20:25
Kate Ellis	Mm-hmm, yeah.	21:28
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Okay. With the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage Foundation, we have several projects that we do on a regular basis. Our biggest thing is our jazz festival, which is actually the biggest jazz festival in the country, and from a lot of sources, the best one in the world because of its multifaceted format and diverse types of presentations. We also sponsor the New Orleans Heritage School of Music, which as I mentioned earlier, is for the education of inner-city kids to give them the opportunity to have some formal musical training. We have a grants program. These are revenues that are derived after the expenses of the festival are paid off, that we use the funds to fund the Heritage School of Music, to fund the grants program. We also have what's called the Congo Square Lecture Series, which is a series of formal presentations of different types.	21:32
Michael Joseph Gourrier	It's not just limited to music. It might be a historical lecture or an author or it's some type of interesting topic that would be of general interest to the community. Then we also sponsor what's called the Neighborhood Music Festivals. In fact, we have one coming up the last Sunday the month. It's going to be the Carrollton Festival. It runs, it's going to be in uptown New Orleans in the Carrollton section, and it'll be from eleven to six, and it'll feature a day of free music in that particular part. We have other parts of the city where we have the Uptown Street Festival, and we have the Treme Street Festival, and we have the Downtown Street Festival. These are other ways that the foundation puts the money that we get from the festival back into the community.	22:52
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I'm also on the board of the New Orleans, the Louisiana Jazz Federation. Our biggest project is Jazz Awareness Month. That occurs here every October. During that particular month, we have thirty-one days of musical events to try and expose the idiom to a broader group of people than would normally have exposure to. Our programs include concerts in halls. We have a school program where we have concerts in the schools to help to expose the kids. Then we have performances. We usually get several major national artists to come in and perform. The rest of the year, we offer a referral and informational service. When I say referral and informational service, we are a resource for general musical, current and past knowledge. We have a library of musical periodicals and the like. We offer referrals for people looking for bands and groups and stuff like that. We act as a social service informational agency for musicians. If a musician is down and out and he needs to be referred to somewhere where he can get medical care, food stamps, or other social service needs, we make referrals for that.	23:51
Kate Ellis	How long has that been available?	25:49
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Ever since the foundation started.	25:52
Kate Ellis	Which was what year?	25:55
Michael Joseph Gourrier	We are in our tenth year. Also we have a jazz calendar, it's a telephone service where you can call 5-2-2-J-A-M-S, that's 5-2-2-5-2-6-7, and have a current updated listing of jazz performances around the city. Basically that's what the Louisiana Jazz Federation does.	26:07
Kate Ellis	All right. Let me get some, I want to [indistinct 00:26:32].	26:31
Michael Joseph Gourrier	All right. Go ahead.	26:32
Kate Ellis	This just came up a few minutes ago. As far as the work that you're doing, and again, the devotion you have to documenting the history of jazz music and spreading the word, do you feel that that work is helping to teach African Americans as well as Whites about their history?	26:34
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Oh, most definitely. In my radio programs, I try and, not to a point where it becomes boring or dull, because I have a motto, my motto is "more platter and less chatter." But when I do—	26:53
Kate Ellis	More platter, less chatter?	27:15
Michael Joseph Gourrier	More platter, less chatter. But when I do chatter, it's informative and informational, because I'll give you information about the artists, maybe where he was born or who he had as a role model or who caused him to play the way that he played or all types of little pertinent information and the like relative to the musicians that I play on my show. It's something that, like I say, it's really ingrained in me because if for no other reason than there's a lack of people doing it. That's why I feel I want to do it. That has been one of the motivating principles and guiding reasons why I've done this radio show for the last twelve years to afford people the opportunity to hear America's original performance art form and have the opportunity, to have a choice to listen to it as opposed to being fed nothing other than a diet of the current pulp stuff that's played on commercial radio.	27:16
Kate Ellis	All right. I know that you want to wrap this up soon, but let me just ask you something about your growing up. I know that your family, you said, you grew up with a musical appreciation, you had musicians in your family and you had exposure to music. But do you feel that around you in your community or in the general New Orleans area, was that same exposure available? I guess what I'm saying—	28:43
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Oh, most definitely. Most definitely. New Orleans is a musical city. You hear music from the time that you woke up in the morning until the time that you go to bed. Depending on where you were and what the context was, from street performers or during the day, the brass bands might parade through the street if you had a funeral. It was just constant. There was never a time when there wasn't music. Music is something that goes with everything, whether it be sorrow or whether it be joy. There's always a place for music in any of those situations. I use those as the two parameters and everything in between. Music can be tailored to accommodate any situation,	29:11
Kate Ellis	Yeah, I agree with you. I guess all I'm saying is that one of your missions is to teach about the history of this particular genre, which is an enormous genre. Again, in teaching—	30:16
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah, we didn't even talk about the influence that we had, say, Kansas City or Chicago or St. Louis. As you say that it's so broad that in order to do a better job, I think that that's one of the reasons why I have limited myself to this particular region and the things that happened as the music evolved right here.	30:27
Kate Ellis	When we talk about history, what we have talked about in our project is the invisibility of African-American history. That's one of the reasons we're doing what we're doing, to document that African-American history. Although music suffuses this whole community and has all through your upbringing, do you feel that the musical history of African-Americans in this country is on some level still invisible or invisible in some way?	30:58
Michael Joseph Gourrier	It's not "in some ways." It is, period.	31:25
Kate Ellis	Okay.	31:26
Michael Joseph Gourrier	As we spoke about it off the record earlier, I think it definitely can be attributed to racism because the bottom line would be that you would have to acknowledge it as an art form that had a Black origin. To keep from doing this, other alternative forms have been invented and perpetuated to keep this from taking its place. As I mentioned, I feel that Duke Ellington was as great a composer as Mozart was in his particular genre of music, but he doesn't get the credit that is due him, nor do a lot of the other innovators and originators of the various styles and types of music were concerned.	31:30
Michael Joseph Gourrier	It's a nationwide thing because you can go from one area to the other, and the level of knowledge is no greater in one area than it is in another. Maybe a little bit, if it's specifically with a local artist. I would feel that more people in Washington, D.C., would know Duke Ellington than in Houston, Texas, because that's where he was from. As a Black musician who had a great impact on an art form, his name should be known across the country and by anybody that is dealing with music per se. Even to the point where people that are not dealing with music at least can relate that name Ellington, "Okay, yeah, he was a musician."	32:25
Kate Ellis	In this project, as I said earlier, one of the things we do is look at the way, in spite of the Jim Crow laws, enactments, everything that were around, we look at the ways that African Americans formed organizations, communities, support networks, whatever, to help one another, to support one another to create strong communities. Do you see music playing a role during the Jim Crow era in particular as far as helping to strengthen communities?	33:31
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Okay, you remember back, we talked about how the benevolent associations eventually evolved into the social and pleasure clubs. It was not uncommon for, and even to this day to have museums—Museums. Musical groups that have been playing for functions for these different social and pleasure clubs for dozens of years. Like Houston's Orchestra and Tommy Ridgley and Dooky Chase used to have an orchestra. Clyde Kerr, Senior, used to have an orchestra. There used to be the Royal Dukes of Rhythm, Wardell Quezergue, who's an arranger for Allen Toussaint. He used to have a band. The reason that a lot of these bands had their organization was because there was a need. Because these social and pleasure clubs constantly have functions and desire music. As I mentioned before, music is very inherent in all activities here in New Orleans. You just can't take the music out of the city.	34:07
Michael Joseph Gourrier	So there's a need. Even nowadays with the large population that we have, there is quite a few musicians who derive good money from playing at these social and pleasure club functions. But in I'd say the last twenty, twenty-five years, there's been a decline in—Now I can't say that this is a racist thing, but it did have a big impact on the development and nurturing the music. The disco period, because disco knocked out a whole lot of live musicians, because it was cheaper to just go ahead on and buy a sound system and some records and not have to pay the musicians. The United States has never rebounded from that particular era. It affected not only Black musicians, but White musicians too. They were displaced. As a result of that particular era, there has been, it never really has rebounded to the point where there is a big demand or support for live musical performances.	35:26
Michael Joseph Gourrier	It's unfortunate because this is how, shall we say, the word is spread by people having the opportunity to come out and hear and personally experience the performances of these musicians. If there are no venues for them to perform, then the people don't have anywhere to go. It's a two-way street, because what came first, the chicken or the egg? Did they have a club that had a band and people came out, or the band was there, nobody came out, because the people didn't know that they were supposed to come out, or it was a problem with the money. So he had a band this week and then they didn't have one next week. So nobody knew when they were going to have the band. You couldn't get on an established pattern as to when you could actually come out. I mean, there's a whole bunch of different factors.	36:56
Michael Joseph Gourrier	I can say that the 1970s was the era that really sounded the death knell of live music and clubs. We just have a few here in New Orleans, and as you travel across the country, there's not as many live music clubs as there were before that particular period. It's unfortunate because it's a big difference between listening to recorded music and live music. You can be in communion with the artists when you there and they performing their art. I do a lot of emceeing around town, and I have a little promo that I like to put in to try and get people to pay attention and tell them that the musicians are going to play according to the degree of response that they get from the audience. If you're going to sit out there and go to sleep, then the musicians are not going to be fired up, they are not going to get that energy that you're emitting and interject it into their performance and in turn give back to you a performance of a high quality or caliber.	37:49
Michael Joseph Gourrier	But if you show them that you are interested in their performance and you're enjoying their performance by your attention, lack of talk, and enthusiastic applause and response, then this will drive and spur them on to the hilt of their capability. But if you're going to be a lackluster audience, then that's the type of performance you're going to get. So let's see if we can start these fellows off on the right track and get them out. That is an actual fact. I have observed this over the years. There is a certain chemistry between the performer and the audience. If the audience is a real good audience, then the performer will perform admirably, but if the audience is a ho-hum audience, then hey, that's going to be the manner in which the performer performs. That also transcends race, that can be a Black artist or a White artist. That same chemistry is present in the performance setting regardless of what color the artist or the audience is.	39:26
Kate Ellis	I was struck by that, and what you say makes me think of a musician that I talked to who used to perform I think in the fifties. Occasionally, well, many times, it would have to be for all-White audiences, who might be hostile. Besides the appreciation for the music but beyond that, there was this basic racism there. I was like, how did you do that? And he just said, "Well, we had a job to do and we did it." Do you think that's the case for a lot of—Given what you're saying about the musicians in some sense need the audience's support in order to spur them on, to have those kinds of transcendental musical experiences. But in their case it was like, "Look, they're just sitting in front of us. We're paid to be here. We'll do what we've got to do."	40:48
Michael Joseph Gourrier	The era, the financial motivation, this might have been the only source of income that this person had. That's another thing that we didn't talk about, but I think needs to be noted, that there are very few African-American musicians here in the city that derive their sole support from playing music.	41:39
Kate Ellis	Really?	42:05
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Very few.	42:06
Kate Ellis	Has that always been the case?	42:06
Michael Joseph Gourrier	For the most part. I guess you could say it reached a peak back in, I'd say just before integration.	42:16
Kate Ellis	It reached a peak as far as the most musicians—	42:26
Michael Joseph Gourrier	As the number of musicians doing a lot of work and making money. Because right now, I'd say nine, actually, it's more than that. I don't want to fool with percentages, but nine out of ten musicians that are playing here in New Orleans, they got other jobs because you would starve if you were waiting around to get a gig.	42:30
Kate Ellis	But why would that have changed? What was going on before integration [indistinct 00:42:58]?	42:54
Michael Joseph Gourrier	There were more, hey, there were more venues. See, when you had integration, you had, well, when you had segregation, you had your Black clubs and you had your White clubs. Then when they were combined, it was just a matter of business. The business couldn't support, you had more places than you had people that were going to come out and support them. So you had a loss on both sides. That cut down on the number of locations that had live music. Each one of those particular topics can be discussed and debated at length.	42:59
Kate Ellis	Which you mean?	43:46
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, just about everything that we've talked about. You know what I mean? Because this is a very general discussion. Like I said, right now, and as far as money is concerned, it might be the root of all evil, but if you don't have any money, you can't buy any groceries. If you're a musician and you don't have a gig to play at, then where you going to get the money to buy the food for your family if you got a family? So like these fellas here, they're part of the one out of ten.	43:50
Kate Ellis	Oh, really?	44:29
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah. All of these fellas here, that's all they do is play music. The people across the street, that's all they do is play music. But then on the other hand, fella I ran into at Atlanta airport Sunday, Alvin Red Tyler, he's a saxophonist with Dr. John's band. Red has been playing music since World War II, since after World War II, when he came back and he went to music school on GI Bill. Red Tyler was a liquor salesman up until about four years ago. But this is how he made sure that he had money to keep his family clothed, housed, fed, and sent his kids to school and the like. Because if you waiting around for a gig and they ain't no gig, what you going to do?	44:29
Kate Ellis	You think it's been worse for Black musicians than White musicians?	45:26
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Most definitely. When the musician unions merged—Now I'm not going to go into this, somebody else will have to talk about that.	45:29
Kate Ellis	Okay, yeah.	45:39
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Since the merger, Black musicians have gotten the short end of the stick. Because the White power structure is such that they're going to cater more to White musicians than Black musicians. Just like all of the, say, all the convention work, all the tourist work—	45:39
Kate Ellis	It's goes to White?	46:06
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Yeah.	46:12
Kate Ellis	You don't want to talk about the union stuff?	46:12
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Nah, uh-uh. Because I really good warm around the—	46:15
Kate Ellis	Really? That makes you hot?	46:16
Michael Joseph Gourrier	Well, it's inequitable and the system stinks, and it should be abolished and let people either by word of mouth or have some other method of getting employment. Because it's not equitable at all. I mean, they do—	46:21

Item Info

Title:

Michael Gourrier interview recording, 1994 August 04

Date:

August 4, 1994

Creator:

Gourrier, Michael Joseph

Contributor:

Ellis, Kate

Description:

Name: Michael Joseph Gourrier; Date of birth: 1940-02-03; Place of birth: New Orleans, LA; Occupation(s): cytologist; musician; Residence: New Orleans, LA
Informant ID: 538; Interviewed by: Kate Ellis.

Occupation:

Location:

Format:

Language:

English

Digital Collection:

Behind the Veil

Source Collection:

Behind the Veil: Documenting African American Life in the Jim Crow South interviews, photographs, and project records, circa 1864-2011, bulk 1990-2004

Series:

Related Resources:

See below

Provenance:

The David M. Rubenstein Rare Book and Manuscript Library acquired the Records of the Behind the Veil Oral History Project from the Duke University Center for Documentary Studies in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2002.

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC 4.0

Rights Note:

Copyright for content created by the Behind the Veil project is held by Duke University and made available to the public using a Creative Commons Attribution / Non-commercial (CC-BY-NC) license.

Identifier:

RL00170-CS-1212
0433d22a-4574-4bd7-a676-a7f9a35a9b64
behindtheveil
99636c42-54dc-44f8-ae60-a25f2a646c31
ark:/87924/r4c252x2z
99636c42-54dc-44f8-ae60-a25f2a646c31

Permalink:

https://idn.duke.edu/ark:/87924/r4c252x2z

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Michael Gourrier interview recording, 1994 August 04

Transcript

Item Info

1. Michael Gourrier administrative file, 1994

John Hope Franklin Research Center

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Michael Gourrier interview recording, 1994 August 04

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center

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