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Interviewer	Okay, good afternoon.	0:06
-	Good afternoon.	0:07
Interviewer	We are very grateful to you	0:09
	for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo project.	0:11
-	(indistinct)	0:14
Interviewer	We invite you to speak of your experiences,	0:16
	involvement with David Hicks,	0:19
	who was held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.	0:20
	We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity	0:23
	to tell you a story in your own words.	0:26
	We are creating an archive of stories	0:30
	so that people in America and around the world	0:32
	will have a better understanding of what you experienced,	0:36
	or future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo.	0:42
	And by telling your story, you're contributing to history.	0:45
	And we appreciate your courage and willingness	0:49
	to speak with us today.	0:51
	If there's, if at any time,	0:55
	if you'd like to take a break, just let us know.	0:58
	And if there's anything you say you'd like	1:01
	to have withdrawn, we can withdraw it,	1:03
	just let us know too.	1:05
	And I like to begin by having you introduce yourself	1:07
	with your name, and where you're living,	1:09
	and perhaps where you grew up,	1:13
	and your age and birth date, if you don't mind.	1:15
-	Now?	1:20
Interviewer	Sure, please.	1:21
-	My name is Beverly Hicks.	1:22
	I was born in Melbourne, in a suburb called Yarraville	1:24
	and I came to South Australia in 1971.	1:28
	I now live at Salisbury Park with my husband, Terry Hicks.	1:33
Interviewer	Do you mind telling us your age?	1:38
-	I was born of the 26th of the 12th of '42.	1:40
	So I'm now 69 years old.	1:44
	(laughter)	1:47
	Don't want to go into that one.	1:49
	(laughter)	1:50
Interviewer	Well you don't look it.	1:51
-	Thank you.	1:52
Interviewer	And can you tell us a bit	1:54
	about your children and what work you did earlier?	1:56
-	I had three boys.	2:03
	Terry has a boy and a girl.	2:05
	When I first come to South Australia, I've done many	2:08
	many sorts of jobs.	2:11
	Worked in factories, and in retail,	2:13
	and in delicatessens, and I've done house cleaning,	2:16
	and I worked for Woolworths for 18 years	2:21
	here in South Australia.	2:24
	Now I'm retired.	2:25
	I sit back and relax now.	2:27
	(chuckle)	2:29
Interviewer	And I guess we'd like to begin	2:31
	by talking a little bit about how it was an experience	2:33
	for you when you first heard about David being arrested.	2:38
-	Frightening, unbelievable,	2:45
	exasperating.	2:50
	We first thought we heard through a friend	2:54
	who'd seen the news on telly about a boy being arrested	2:56
	in Australian letter.	2:59
	Why he thought it was David,	3:01
	goodness only knows, but he rang to say	3:02
	he thought it may have been David.	3:04
	He knew he was in the area.	3:05
	And a couple of days later, that was on a Sunday night,	3:08
	and then on a Tuesday night, they knocked on the door.	3:11
	And how I know that is because Terry does football	3:14
	and on the Tuesday, he was always at football.	3:17
	They knocked on the door at nine o'clock at night,	3:21
	they waited till Terry got home.	3:25
	They'd been out there for quite a while	3:26
	very frightening experience	3:31
	to have burly men walk	3:33
	in the door with their piece of paper,	3:38
	saying they can do whatever they like,	3:42
	search whatever they like.	3:44
	And you're frightened and intimidated,	3:47
	you don't know what you're thinking	3:51
	because all thoughts stops.	3:53
	It's just, I can't do anything	3:55
	to make these people angry.	3:58
	Or we know nothing, you know.	4:01
	Do what you want, look what you want.	4:05
	Yeah. So rather a very upsetting time,	4:08
	your heart pounds.	4:13
	And you just have, it's fear I suppose.	4:16
	Fear of the unknown.	4:18
Interviewer	Did you see them waiting outside.	4:21
-	No, but because I actually,	4:24
	they obviously knew that Terry was out of the house	4:30
	and picked their moment.	4:34
	They gave him time to get in the house and settle	4:35
	before they knocked.	4:40
	He got in about half-past eight.	4:40
	They knocked on the door at nine.	4:42
	They also knocked on the door across the road	4:43
	because David had lived there for a while.	4:45
	And they knocked on his mother's door	4:48
	exactly the same time as they knocked on our door.	4:49
	And on his ex-partner's door, all at the same time.	4:54
	It was very well orchestrated.	4:59
Interviewer	When you were notified	5:02
	by a friend that David might've been picked up,	5:04
	did you believe that? What were you thinking?	5:06
-	Oh, could he be? Well, perhaps.	5:08
	Nah, nah, nah	5:12
	That's just, you know, he just no.	5:15
	Deep down you didn't want it to be, oh my God no, no.	5:20
	He's out of the country by now, no.	5:24
Interviewer	And were you worried for David	5:27
	when you said you had fear and you were frightened,	5:29
	were you worried for yourself?	5:32
-	Worried for everything.	5:33
	Worried for, what the hell's going on here?	5:36
	What the hell has he done that is so bad	5:38
	that people have to come to our house.	5:41
	Fear of the unknown, not knowing what was happening to him.	5:46
	Where he was, or they gave us a story	5:49
	that he was caught in the mountains	5:52
	and that wasn't true.	5:53
	They had all this paperwork that we had to sign	5:56
	our statements of where we thought David was	6:00
	and what he was doing.	6:03
	Then they had to come back later on, they come back	6:06
	I don't know, two months down the track and have to	6:09
	redo those statements because they did the statements wrong.	6:11
	This is how very professional these people were.	6:14
	Sorry, I'm getting angry	6:18
Interviewer	Statements of what?	6:20
Woman	That's fine, you can be angry.	6:22
-	Statements of what we thought David was doing.	6:24
	What was he doing in the country and all that sort of thing.	6:27
	When did we last hear from David, and I had diaries.	6:32
	And being in a shock state,	6:36
	and I guess that's what I was in, in a shock state.	6:38
	And now we're talking about dates.	6:42
	When did he last ring, whatever, whatever	6:43
	And, oh, I keep diaries.	6:46
	I was working at the time and I had to have diaries	6:49
	of all the money I brought in for taxation purposes.	6:52
	And occasionally I wrote	6:55
	in my diary, if anything specific happened	6:56
	and me and my mouth said oh well,	6:59
	I've got the last time when David rang,	7:01
	I've put it in the diary.	7:04
	Well, out of four years of diaries that they took	7:06
	out of this house, there was four entries.	7:09
Interviewer	How did they know to take your diaries?	7:13
-	Because I'd said to them	7:15
	when we've spoken to David, I've written it down.	7:17
	Well, I hadn't really written it down at all.	7:20
	The last entry that I had put	7:22
	in was it David rang on November the third,	7:23
	and I'd written twice other times he'd rung.	7:27
	And his father was at football	7:30
	and David said he would ring back when he could.	7:32
	There was about four entries in the years	7:35
	of the diaries that they took, nothing was nothing.	7:38
	Wouldn't let me have those diaries back.	7:41
	In the end, Stephen Kenny was very good.	7:43
	He got those back cause I had...	7:45
	He didn't get them back, they ripped them all apart	7:47
	and photocopied every page,	7:50
	and sent it back in a pile like this.	7:51
	Stephen Kenny got them back	7:56
	because I had to have them for my tax, to do my tax.	7:57
	Otherwise, I would still have been waiting for them.	8:02
	But the government actually did give them back eventually	8:07
	because David's wife sent a parcel	8:09
	that the AFP had given her, middle or late last year	8:12
	of the diaries put back together again.	8:18
	And I've been through every page	8:20
	of those four or three years that they took.	8:22
	There was nothing incriminating on David whatsoever.	8:26
Interviewer	Did you get your computers back?	8:30
-	Yes. We got our computers back.	8:32
	It was about a week or two weeks later.	8:35
	They took the man across the road's computer as well.	8:37
Interviewer	And that evening what did you do,	8:41
	was the media gathering then or?	8:44
-	No, as Terry said, they promised us	8:45
	that our names would not be released	8:49
	and it wouldn't be in the paper.	8:51
	And there was a snippet in the paper the next morning.	8:53
	And as Terry said we had our first phone call,	8:56
	it was either six-thirty or seven o'clock in the morning.	9:00
	And it was a New South Wales, Sydney radio station	9:02
	wanting to know all the news.	9:07
	And then the next breath, they're all hammering on the door.	9:09
	Wanting to know all the details and...	9:13
Interviewer	What were you thinking?	9:16
-	Oh, what are you doing in our ass?	9:17
	We both had to go to work.	9:22
	It's very, very distressing.	9:24
	I had to ring a friend and say, how the hell am I going to	9:26
	get out of this house?	9:29
	How am I going to get out of this yard?	9:31
	Are they going to follow me?	9:33
	Which they did.	9:34
	You know, just the media	9:36
	were a pack of mongrels, sorry.	9:41
	That's what they were, a pack of mongrels.	9:43
	One woman shoved her mouthpiece in front	9:46
	of Terry's face when he was getting into the car and said	9:49
	well now what do you think of your son as a terrorist?	9:54
	This is on the first day.	9:58
	Nobody knew anything.	10:00
	Just...	10:03
Interviewer	What happened when you came to work?	10:05
-	Took me a long time to get out.	10:08
	At the time I was doing house cleaning and my employer,	10:09
	very good man, just you know.	10:12
	Oh, don't worry about it.	10:15
	Don't come or just go home, do what you want,	10:17
	but you have to keep doing a normal day's work.	10:19
	But they did follow me for a little way.	10:23
	No need to do that.	10:26
	You know, and they were here about a week on and off.	10:28
Interviewer	Did you feel you would like	10:32
	to give a statement too?	10:33
-	No, I didn't want to follow them?	10:35
	I didn't want to talk to them.	10:36
	I get...	10:39
	As you can already tell, a little bit heat up.	10:40
	And when I get angry, anything could come out of this mouth.	10:45
	So, I didn't want to be involved with the media.	10:51
	Never trust the media.	10:55
	And then, in the end, they ended up	10:57
	being very friendly, very helpful.	10:58
	It was a few of them that were very,	11:01
	well mind you I suppose...	11:03
	They're all very nice people, but just doing their job.	11:05
	And a couple of them used to say to us, look, we're sorry	11:09
	but our editor wants blah, blah, blah.	11:12
	We got to do our job.	11:14
	And you have to understand	11:16
	that from their point of view too.	11:18
	But, and some of them become very friendly	11:20
	but I still would never trust them.	11:23
	Never trust the media.	11:25
Interviewer	And did you have any indication	11:28
	from anyone at all?	11:31
	What was going on with David?	11:32
	Or did you think about what really was going on with David?	11:34
-	Do you know thoughts flying out of your head.	11:37
	You can't think about anything, it's just so jumbled.	11:41
	You try to deal with this situation here.	11:45
	You're trying to think, well, where the hell is he?	11:48
	What are they doing to him?	11:50
	Is he safe, is he not safe?	11:52
	And at the time all that Afghanistan stuff was happening.	11:54
	And I cannot remember the name of the place with it.	11:59
	Mazar-i-Sharif, where they're captured there,	12:02
	going down that hill where they captured them	12:07
	and put them on the ground.	12:10
	We didn't know if, cause that Walker was in amongst that.	12:12
	And the state that lad was in	12:18
	just looking at him on the TV.	12:20
	All the coverage they had, it was nonstop coverage.	12:22
	And then all the reports of them being put in	12:25
	those containers and bullets shot through.	12:29
	And you're thinking, dear God is he in one of them?	12:32
	Where the hell is he? What's happening?	12:35
	You know, it's just, it was not good.	12:37
Interviewer	Did you think the Americans	12:42
	would be treating them?	12:43
	I mean, when they told you the Americans had them,	12:45
	that didn't give you any comfort?	12:48
-	Well, you thought he would have been treated decently.	12:50
	It's not like these other countries where you hear	12:54
	of all the horrific things that go on.	12:57
	It's a democratic country	12:58
	And you think, oh, well, he'll be fine.	13:01
	They'll look after him.	13:03
	The Australian government will look after him.	13:05
	He is an Australian citizen,	13:06
	after all, they will look after him.	13:08
	But no, they didn't look after him.	13:12
Interviewer	So you managed to just	13:19
	go to work each day and kind of hold up.	13:22
-	We had to, you have to do that.	13:24
Interviewer	And at night when...	13:27
-	Very sleepless nights,	13:31
	because at night everything goes around	13:34
	and around and around your head.	13:36
	You're trying to think what has this boy done that's so bad?	13:39
	And then they brought out this pack of 52 and,	13:43
	but David's name wasn't on that pack of 52.	13:45
	So how did they come out saying	13:48
	he was one of the worst 20 in the world.	13:50
	This is what our government was saying.	13:52
	One of the worst 20 in the world.	13:54
	He's harmless and he's still harmless.	13:57
Interviewer	And when you found out	14:01
	he had gone to Guantanamo, what did you think about that?	14:03
-	Worried, because we didn't know	14:07
	what Guantanamo was really.	14:09
	And then everything we learned	14:13
	was mainly from the media.	14:18
	The government hardly ever was in touch with us.	14:19
	When they were, it was just an official document saying	14:24
	well he's now being removed to Guantanamo or whatever.	14:27
	It was the media on the television, in the papers.	14:30
	Photos of them getting off the plane and, you know,	14:33
	in that cage, in their orange overalls and you know.	14:38
	People, media saying, oh definitely David Hicks	14:42
	in that photo, there was one where they had him,	14:45
	there was a detainee, such a lot in the papers	14:49
	and on the telly where this detaining was walking along.	14:54
	Short stature, thin.	14:57
	Oh, that's definitely, that's definitely David Hicks.	14:59
	I wouldn't have had a clue who it was, you know but.	15:02
	It gets to you.	15:07
Interviewer	Did you think he	15:10
	was being mistreated when you saw those photos?	15:11
-	After seeing those photos, where they had the hats	15:14
	over their heads and putting them in that cage.	15:17
	And then the photos	15:20
	of Chinese so-called prison cells.	15:22
	The containers or whatever they were, you're thinking	15:27
	oh my God, what the hell is happening over there?	15:30
	And it was, oh no they're only going	15:35
	in them until we build proper accommodation.	15:38
	And then we were getting the photos	15:42
	on the telly of where they would take the tours through,	15:44
	the media, and show them where they cook their meals.	15:49
	Now, this is the cell all beautifully clean	15:53
	and lined up and neat.	15:56
	And we saw all that on the television.	15:57
Interviewer	And how did your friends,	16:02
	besides your employer, how did your friends	16:04
	treat you in your this?	16:06
-	Very good, wonderful.	16:07
	We never had any.	16:10
	All our family and our friends stood by David and by Terry.	16:13
	And neighbors, absolutely wonderful.	16:18
	They got shot shit from the media,	16:21
	the media got shot shit from them.	16:23
	Knocking on their doors, saying, what can you tell us?	16:25
	What can you tell us?	16:28
	You know, going down as far	16:30
	as the end of the road, who don't even know us.	16:31
	What can you tell us about David Hicks?	16:34
	You know, they got shot shit, which was wonderful.	16:35
Interviewer	And did you think of reaching out	16:39
	to the Australian government asking them to help you?	16:40
	With what you were seeing on the television.	16:44
-	Well, Terry tried so many times.	16:46
	We were floundering until Stephen Kenny came on the scene.	16:51
	When Stephen Kenny come on the scene, everything started to	16:55
	become normal in our lives.	16:59
	And thank God there's someone who can direct us	17:01
	and who knows what to do.	17:04
	And you know, can point us in the right direction and	17:05
	get in touch with government officials	17:11
	and government departments.	17:13
	Up to then, we had no idea what to do.	17:16
	Had no idea what to do, who to approach, or anything.	17:20
Interviewer	Were you there when you met with	17:24
	Mr. Kenny and helped make the decision about hiring?	17:27
-	Yes he come here.	17:29
Interviewer	And you felt more confident?	17:32
-	He's a wonderful person.	17:36
	He just walked in the room and you felt completely at ease	17:38
	and you felt that he cared and he, you know, you felt	17:41
	that he thought our government was wrong by not helping.	17:46
	He just made us feel, yeah, I can do this job.	17:50
Interviewer	And in the meantime, did you have any more	17:54
	inklings that maybe David is being mistreated or?	17:57
-	No, I cannot really remember the first time we	18:00
	really understood when it started with David.	18:04
	And you have to forgive me because my memory	18:08
	is not good anymore.	18:10
	But perhaps I really thought about it more	18:13
	after that first trip to Guantanamo, and thought right,	18:19
	well perhaps this is happening, perhaps this has happened.	18:24
Interviewer	Why, what made the trip	18:27
	make it real for you?	18:29
-	Just the way they.	18:32
	I can't explain it, it was so well, right.	18:35
	We're in a military compound.	18:38
	So I guess if I'd looked at it from that aspect	18:40
	but I wasn't looking at it from that aspect.	18:45
	I was looking at it more from a mother's and wife's aspect.	18:47
	It was so over the top, it was ridiculous.	18:53
	That's how I felt, it was just.	18:57
	Mind you, they were very nice to us.	19:00
	Could never say they were not nice to us.	19:04
	They were very, very nice to us all the time we were there.	19:06
	It was just, you know,	19:11
	the security on this island.	19:15
	Where the hell did they think anybody was going to go	19:18
	off that island anyway.	19:21
	We weren't allowed to see where the prison was.	19:23
	That was way, way down in the valleys.	19:26
	Couldn't see that.	19:28
	You could barely see it from the plane.	19:29
	You could just see little rooftops.	19:32
	The amount of weapons and guns for a commission.	19:38
	When they picked us up and took us in the bus	19:45
	from the place where we were staying on the island	19:47
	to the courthouse on the top of the hill.	19:52
	We're in this bus it was signaled with magnetic, you know	19:56
	detector things and snipers on the roofs.	20:02
	How ridiculous. That is so far.	20:07
	I'm sorry.	20:10
	It's just so far over the top.	20:11
	And then when we were allowed	20:14
	as Terry said to go into that room to see David	20:17
	they were armed guards, that whole passage.	20:19
Interviewer	And what was your sense of David	20:25
	when you first met him?	20:27
-	Lost, a lost soul.	20:36
	I don't know how to describe that.	20:43
	It wasn't good.	20:46
	A lost soul, frightened.	20:49
	And very anxious, anxious what his outcome was going to be.	20:56
	You know, 10 minutes or 15 minutes	21:04
	whatever the hell it was we had,	21:08
	that's a lifetime in that little time.	21:10
Interviewer	How did he look to you?	21:14
-	Very overblown.	21:16
	Very, what's the word?	21:17
	I don't know how to explain that.	21:25
	Is it beefed up or?	21:27
	Yeah, not healthy looking.	21:30
Interviewer	What would cause them not to look healthy?	21:36
-	I don't know.	21:38
	Well, he was always shut inside, wasn't he?	21:41
	I don't know.	21:48
	I don't know.	21:48
	But he just did not look healthy and he just looked...	21:50
Interviewer	Bloated?	21:54
-	Bloated, that's the word.	21:55
	Yeah.	21:57
Interviewer	How about what he said,	21:59
	his speech, and things he said.	22:01
-	You know, very quiet and,	22:04
	he couldn't say much, you know.	22:08
	I asked him a question	22:12
	and I can't even remember what it was.	22:13
	And he said I've got to be careful.	22:15
	Okay. So you don't ask nothing.	22:18
Interviewer	So when you left that cell that changed	22:23
	your opinion of what might've happened to him.	22:27
-	Yeah. I think that, you know,	22:30
	that they did something to him.	22:33
	You know, even now	22:36
	10 years down the track	22:40
	and he's been out of prison what three years or something,	22:41
	he's become very militarized.	22:46
	Everything is gotta be written down and ticked off.	22:50
	And everything's gotta be in its set place and,	22:52
	all organized, and don't do one thing out of place.	22:57
	That's very militarized.	23:03
Interviewer	Well, I want to back up just a little bit	23:08
	because Terry was talking about	23:10
	the red cross and the letters.	23:11
	What did you think of those letters you received	23:13
	and that you sent?	23:16
-	Very distressing,	23:18
	because just about every second word was blacked out.	23:20
	So you have no idea what he's trying to tell you anyway.	23:26
	You weren't allowed to, there was no, you know	23:29
	I love you or anything that's all blacked out.	23:32
	So most of the letters there wasn't hardly worth sending	23:34
	but you have to, you know, and it was the same with his.	23:37
	In his letter that he got from us, all the I love you's	23:40
	and we all care about you, all blacked out.	23:43
	So it's mind, just playing with his mind.	23:47
Interviewer	Why would they blackout I love you?	23:53
-	Because they don't want people caring about you, do they?	23:56
	They don't want him to think, well hang on a minute,	23:59
	someone at home does care about me enough	24:02
	to worry about me being in here.	24:04
	Why else would you blackout message of love?	24:07
	Loves all, isn't it?	24:12
Interviewer	Did you know what the government blacked	24:15
	out from your letters or not?	24:16
-	He just said that nothing come through	24:19
	with a love you or any caring phrases.	24:21
Interviewer	And during this time	24:26
	did you begin to have a different impression	24:27
	of the US or Australian government?	24:29
-	The Australian government I've come to detest,	24:33
	in the end.	24:39
	And all my life from voting age,	24:40
	I've been a liberal supporter.	24:43
	I'll never vote liberal again, ever.	24:45
	I'm very careful who I vote for now.	24:48
	I voted liberal because that's what my parents did	24:51
	how they traded an Australian citizen, you know,	24:57
	not good, not good at all.	25:02
	I would like to have seen how its children	25:05
	or any of those politician's children in that situation,	25:09
	and see what would have happened to them.	25:13
	They would have been home here on Australian soil.	25:15
	But no, the governments, weren't interested.	25:21
	George Bush said he was a terrorist.	25:25
	John Howard said he was a terrorist.	25:27
	That was it.	25:30
	Black and white, nothing else.	25:31
Interviewer	And you had no way	25:35
	to reach the government or did you try on your own?	25:39
-	No, I didn't.	25:42
	Terry did all the work.	25:43
	Terry and his daughter, Stephanie	25:44
	they did so much work and the figure for David's group.	25:47
	They all did a hell of a lot of work.	25:50
	And all those groups around Australia	25:53
	that did their petitions and, you know	25:54
	meeting with government officials and they did all work.	25:57
	I just stayed in the background.	26:01
	I couldn't face, I was a bit of a coward actually.	26:03
	Cause I couldn't face that, that day, that media.	26:08
	That first day.	26:12
	That media did something to me, couldn't face anything.	26:14
	I went to one rally at Parliament House steps	26:19
	here in Adelaide, I couldn't handle it.	26:23
	I'm not a radical person.	26:26
Interviewer	Were you there when Terry	26:31
	was in the cage that day?	26:32
-	No.	26:34
Interviewer	you didn't want to know?	26:35
-	No.	26:36
Interviewer	Did you know he was going to do that?	26:37
-	Yes, yes. And we watched it all on telly and	26:38
	to think he did it in New York as well.	26:42
	That was pretty phenomenal that he did that in New York.	26:45
	It's just, backed him all the way.	26:48
	I just could not be out there with them.	26:52
Interviewer	Did you ever think,	26:54
	or did the lawyer, or Terry ever say to you,	26:56
	you might be very effective if you spoke out	26:58
	as a mother on behalf of David?	27:01
-	Well, we did do a couple of things.	27:06
	We went on the Australian television	27:08
	They have their morning shows,	27:11
	and different ones had asked Terry to go on	27:13
	and I had gone on with so, occasionally not very often.	27:15
	I went on for small little opinion.	27:20
Interviewer	How'd you feel about that?	27:24
-	They made me feel very comfortable, so I was fine.	27:25
	And a couple of times we had different ones come	27:31
	to the house, do TV shows.	27:33
	I think Terry's been	27:36
	on every news thing in Australia on different channels.	27:37
	And at times they would say something to me	27:42
	but they always made me feel comfortable.	27:45
	Yeah.	27:50
Interviewer	And what are your thoughts	27:51
	about the American government?	27:52
	Did you...	27:54
-	Very sad about the American government?	27:55
	I am always, I think because	27:59
	from when you were a little tackers	28:03
	and how America come into the war and everybody, you know.	28:04
	All the countries got together and the world was saved.	28:07
	And then you have them	28:11
	sort of going into these wars and	28:15
	you think, well, why are they really there.	28:20
	Is it for the human side of it	28:22
	or is it for the oil side of it?	28:25
	What are they getting out of it?	28:27
	Why are they sending all your young people	28:29
	to be killed?	28:34
	You know, what did it do?	28:36
	All those men died.	28:38
	And they're back to where they were,	28:42
	virtually now aren't they?	28:43
	They'd just, nothing has been solved in Iraq.	28:45
	Nothing will be solved in Afghanistan.	28:48
	And it's just so sad.	28:51
	Very sad, and I don't understand what that is.	28:53
	Is it greed?	28:57
	Just one country wants to be better than the other?	28:59
	I don't know.	29:03
Interviewer	Were you political before?	29:05
-	No, no.	29:08
	Politics, my dad always used to say to me,	29:11
	never discuss politics and never discuss football.	29:14
	Yeah. Okay.	29:21
	Otherwise, you'll get into arguments	29:22
	that you can't get out of.	29:23
Interviewer	What would your dad	29:27
	have said about what happened?	29:27
-	He would be absolutely furious	29:31
	with the Australian government.	29:33
	That they didn't stand up for its citizen's rights?	29:35
	Yeah. My dad went to fight in a war.	29:39
	Terry's father fought in a war,	29:41
	to make sure we were looked after.	29:43
	That we had rights and it all boils down	29:46
	till you haven't got any rights whatsoever.	29:50
	I think there's a law being passed now,	29:53
	I'm not quite sure about this.	29:55
	That if you, is the word called sedition?	29:56
	If you say anything about a government,	29:59
	even here in Australia,	30:02
	if you are caught saying anything like that	30:04
	they can put you in a cell for so many hours or whatever.	30:07
	For voicing your opinion.	30:12
	That's not a free democracy anymore if they can do that.	30:14
	And all these governments are allowing it to happen.	30:18
Woman	Second and third visits.	30:31
Interviewer	Yeah, I'll get to it.	30:33
	When you came back home from the first visit,	30:38
	did you start thinking maybe you need to speak	30:43
	out more after that?	30:46
-	The truth, when I come home from that visit,	30:49
	I was devastated.	30:52
	It took me weeks to get back to being a normal person.	30:55
	That's how it was.	31:02
	It was so distressing.	31:04
	You sort of don't think about it.	31:15
	You shut it out.	31:19
	But I was not a well person for a couple of weeks.	31:22
Interviewer	What was it distressing?	31:27
	Because you thought what really did happen	31:28
	to David at that point, is that what was?	31:30
-	And to see him in that situation, to see him mangled	31:32
	to a floor, to have all those armed people.	31:36
	So distressing, just...	31:40
Interviewer	Did you have someone	31:44
	you could talk to about that?	31:45
-	I didn't for years.	31:47
	And then many just before, thank you.	31:49
	Before David come home, I went to a counselor	31:51
	and she just listened and I talked	31:56
	for hours and she just listened.	31:59
	And that helped me but it was years	32:02
	before I went and got that help.	32:04
Interviewer	What made you decide?	32:06
-	I couldn't, I think I was worried about,	32:07
	oh God here we go again.	32:11
	We're going to have all the media.	32:12
	We're going to have everything here again.	32:14
	We're going to have all this distress again.	32:15
Interviewer	So you wanted to prepare for that.	32:18
	You didn't think	32:20
	of seeing a counselor when you got home from the first?	32:21
-	No, I never thought about it.	32:24
	Just was having to get back to normal after being,	32:27
	and we were home, and we were there and back in what?	32:30
	Four days or something, just horrendous, really.	32:34
	To be militarized like that, just.	32:40
Interviewer	When you went back the second time.	32:46
-	I didn't go the second time.	32:48
	Stephanie went with...	32:49
Interviewer	Terry.	32:51
-	Terry.	32:52
Interviewer	You didn't want to go?	32:53
-	No. Actually, it was Stephanie and Stephen Kenny	32:54
	went the second time.	32:59
	And Stephanie and Terry went to third time.	33:00
Interviewer	You never went back.	33:04
-	No.	33:05
Interviewer	Because?	33:06
-	I couldn't handle that again.	33:07
	I didn't want to see him like that.	33:11
	Once was enough.	33:14
Interviewer	Were you still able to talk	33:17
	to him on the phone?	33:18
-	Yes, but they were distressing, was just distressing.	33:19
	Because he couldn't say much, could only talk	33:26
	about the weather.	33:29
	I think one stage he said	33:31
	I don't want to hear about the weather.	33:32
	Oh, fair enough.	33:34
	There's nothing else we can talk about David.	33:37
Interviewer	So you're saying, how did your life change	33:40
	in these last 10 years?	33:46
	What do you think has changed in your life?	33:47
-	Oh, nothing much, I suppose.	33:51
	You've got to get on with life.	33:54
	And hope that everything works out well, for him.	33:58
	Nothing much has changed for Terry and I.	34:04
	We just go down the same old road every day.	34:05
	But you know, it's David that you got to worry about.	34:09
	What is going to happen to David in the future?	34:11
	You know, because you know,	34:14
	he might look a well lad, mentally they've destroyed him.	34:17
Interviewer	Why do you say that?	34:22
-	Well, David is not the David he used to be.	34:24
	He's just not the same boy anymore.	34:28
	And you wouldn't know unless you knew him before.	34:31
	It's just, and he says that writing	34:35
	the book didn't help him.	34:38
	He's written that book, perhaps it was the wrong thing to do	34:40
	because obviously it's brought everything back	34:43
	to the fore again.	34:46
	And the thing that's killing him is	34:47
	that he has not got any justice whatsoever.	34:51
	If he hadn't signed that plea bargain, he'd still be there.	34:55
	Most Australians know,	35:00
	that the other half think that's rubbish,	35:01
	but that's the truth of it.	35:04
	If he hadn't signed that plea bargain, he'd still be there.	35:06
	So, because he signed the plea bargain	35:11
	our government says he's guilty and that's it.	35:13
	You will get nothing from us.	35:18
	No, sorry, no compensation, nothing.	35:19
Interviewer	How was he different?	35:24
	How was he before 911, before he left home?	35:25
-	Well, he wasn't so militarized as he is now.	35:29
	(laughter)	35:32
	He wasn't a boy that had to write things down	35:33
	and tick it off and, you know, make sure that he's doing it.	35:37
Interviewer	Had you heard the term that Guantanamo was	35:44
	a psychological prison?	35:47
	Had some people, some detainees we have interviewed have	35:48
	called Guantanamo psychological prison.	35:51
	Have you ever heard that term?	35:54
-	No.	35:55
Interviewer	Does that make sense to you?	35:57
-	Mhm, they play with their heads.	35:58
	Play with their minds.	36:02
	And I'm sure that's what's happened to him.	36:04
	He's not sure of anything anymore.	36:07
	He's not sure on making decisions.	36:09
	He really has a hard time to make a decision.	36:12
	He was never like that before.	36:16
	It's all up here.	36:19
	They definitely played with, I don't,	36:22
	I mean, I don't know much about Guantanamo and what goes	36:23
	on in there, but I know that something happened	36:26
	to him with his mind.	36:28
	And David doesn't talk about it.	36:32
	Don't ask me why we don't ask questions.	36:36
	Because we don't, I don't want him going back thinking	36:39
	about what may have happened to him there.	36:43
	You sorta keep away from that area,	36:47
	and you sort of think to yourself, if he wants to tell you	36:49
	he'll tell you.	36:54
	It's like the men who go to war, isn't it?	36:55
	They don't talk about what they did.	36:57
	So I guess it's the same principle.	37:00
	He's not the same lad.	37:05
	They definitely did something to his mind in there.	37:06
Woman	Does David, has he talked about your visits?	37:13
	Has, did he, does he now remember those visits	37:18
	and does he remember them in a positive way?	37:21
-	He's always remembered them as a positive way.	37:24
	I think that was his glimmer of hope.	37:28
	At last, I've seen my family.	37:31
	I think that was his glimmer.	37:34
	Cause he was in a pretty deep	37:35
	dark spot before that last visit	37:37
	that his father and his sister went on.	37:41
	He was in a pretty, pretty dark spot.	37:42
	Wasn't anticipating ever getting home.	37:47
	So his mind was on other things.	37:51
	So that plea bargain virtually saved his life, I guess.	37:54
	He could not see any other way out of that place.	37:59
Interviewer	Did you and Terry encouraged him	38:04
	to sign that plea bargain?	38:05
-	We didn't know about it.	38:07
	Well, I didn't know about it.	38:08
	I don't, Terry wouldn't have known	38:10
	about it until I were there.	38:11
Interviewer	You kind of answered this	38:15
	but I thought I'd look at it in larger picture.	38:17
	How do you, how do you cope, endure these 10 years?	38:19
	And is there something, was there something,	38:23
	something that you kind of did to	38:26
	help you get through it?	38:30
-	I don't know.	38:32
	I know that in the 10 years I've become	38:39
	a very snappy personality.	38:42
	Stressful times I become more snappy	38:48
	and perhaps I may not have been like that before.	38:50
	Get very short with things	38:55
	and very frustrated.	38:58
	Yeah. I think perhaps really I'm very	39:02
	very angry still that happened to our family.	39:07
Interviewer	Then I guess, I hadn't thought	39:13
	of this question but why did you agree to interview with us?	39:15
-	Well, people need to know.	39:19
	About David really.	39:24
	They need to know, whether he was physically tortured or not	39:30
	something definitely happened with his mind.	39:34
	And I guess when you're put	39:37
	in solitary confinement for, what was he	39:38
	in there a year or something just on his own,	39:41
	that has to, can you imagine that.	39:43
	That has to play with your mind, doesn't it?	39:47
	You can't expect anybody to come out of a place	39:49
	like that and be absolutely	39:53
	100% mentally normal.	39:56
	So the American government is responsible for that.	40:01
	The Australian government are responsible for that	40:03
	But none, as far as they're concerned	40:07
	have done nothing to him.	40:08
Interviewer	Is there something the Australian government	40:12
	could do to make amends?	40:13
-	Say sorry to him.	40:16
	He would like the governments to say,	40:19
	whoops, we may have been wrong, sorry.	40:23
	But that's never going to happen, you know.	40:27
Interviewer	Why?	40:31
-	The Australian government will never back down.	40:33
	I wouldn't have, I wouldn't offend America for a starter.	40:36
	So, they'll never say sorry.	40:40
	And it doesn't matter.	40:42
	Even though it's labor government in here now.	40:44
	And they weren't in power,	40:47
	they've done nothing to help either.	40:49
	When it was the other side of the coin	40:52
	and the liberals were in,	40:54
	there was labor personalities that, oh no, it's so wrong.	40:55
	We, you know, we would, we would.	40:59
	Then when they got into power, they've done nothing.	41:01
	Absolutely nothing.	41:05
Interviewer	Have they said to you,	41:07
	why they're not doing anything?	41:08
-	No.	41:09
	We're just little cogs in the wheel.	41:12
	We don't mean nothing to them.	41:13
Interviewer	Did you think that Obama	41:16
	would have made a difference?	41:19
-	I thought so.	41:20
	When he come to the presidency,	41:22
	I thought oh yes, good.	41:26
	You're going to have a good country now, but I don't know.	41:29
	I don't know.	41:33
	He's very charismatic.	41:34
	I think he's a very good man	41:37
	but he was going to close Guantanamo down.	41:39
	Ah yes, I'm going to close Guantanamo down.	41:44
	So what's happened.	41:48
Interviewer	Should it be closed down?	41:50
-	Yes. Put those poor devils.	41:51
	Whether they're guilty or not guilty,	41:53
	put them through a proper trial.	41:56
	Don't keep them in limbo.	41:58
	That's what they're in limbo.	41:59
	Does anybody care about?	42:01
	Because we live in Australia, David Hicks is now home.	42:04
	Nobody gives a damn about those people in Guantanamo now.	42:06
	Hardly anybody knows how many people are there now.	42:11
	You know.	42:16
	Nobody talks about if the media is not interested in them.	42:18
Interviewer	They have mothers	42:22
	and wives and daughters too.	42:23
-	Poor devils, you know.	42:26
	They should be, if they've done something wrong,	42:29
	well put them through the court.	42:31
	If they've done nothing wrong and can prove it	42:35
	send the poor beggars home.	42:37
	You know.	42:40
	Close the place down.	42:41
	I don't know why they haven't done that?	42:44
	Do you know why they haven't done that?	42:45
	Don't know.	42:50
Interviewer	So is there something that	42:55
	I didn't ask you, Bev.	42:57
	That maybe you'd like to share since you said you	42:58
	wanted the world to know about David,	43:01
	and coming from you is as something else maybe?	43:02
-	No, not really.	43:07
	Just, you know.	43:08
	I don't know.	43:13
	I just think that it's a terrible place, Guantanamo.	43:15
	And that to have to sign a plea bargain	43:19
	to get home without a proper thing.	43:22
	Without even being charged with anything.	43:26
	Charged with guarding a broken down tank or something.	43:28
	Oh, be real.	43:32
	But anyway.	43:33
	I think human rights	43:36
	to the front of everything here, you know.	43:40
	And with David home, somebody should be doing something	43:43
	for these other poor devils that are stuck there.	43:45
	And it's just,	43:49
	I mean, that's just one little,	43:50
	one little spot on the globe.	43:52
	There's so many terrible, terrible things happening.	43:53
Interviewer	I guess I have one more question.	43:57
	When David came home, how did you feel about that?	43:57
	When he was taken straight to prison.	44:01
	So you didn't get to see him for a couple of days.	44:05
	When you did get to see him how was that	44:07
	for you seeing him in Australia?	44:10
-	It was good to see him on Australian soil.	44:12
	Terrible to see him in prison.	44:14
	Shouldn't have never been put in a prison.	44:17
	He served six years in conditions that these	44:20
	prisoners wouldn't know what it was all about.	44:22
	I thought that was wrong.	44:26
	They shouldn't have done that.	44:27
	They should have let him just come home.	44:28
	And they didn't, so that was pretty sad.	44:30
Interviewer	Did he look better to you when he came?	44:34
-	Finally, started to look better.	44:36
Interviewer	How does he look to you today?	44:39
-	Yes, he looks, he's healthy.	44:40
	He's healthy now.	44:43
	And that's the main thing.	44:45
	Just need his mind to be healthy.	44:47
Interviewer	Well, I want to thank you	44:52
	and we need to take 20 seconds of quiet.	44:53
-	Okay.	44:57

Item Info

Title:

Hicks, Bev - Interview master file

Date:

January 2, 2012

Interviewer:

Honigsberg, Peter Jan

Interviewee:

Hicks, Bev

Role:

Detainee Family

Description:

This interview may include descriptions of violence.
Mother of David Hicks
Bev Hicks, female, age 69, the stepmother of former Guantanamo Bay detainee David Hicks, worked tirelessly for years with David's attorneys, and on February 19, 2015, got his conviction vacated.
Description was provided by Witness to Guantanamo.

Subject:

Australia

Format:

oral histories

Language:

English

Extent:

0:45:25

Digital Collection:

Witness to Guantanamo

Source Collection:

Witness to Guantanamo Video Collection, 2009-2017

Rights:

Limited Re-Use

CC BY-NC-ND 4.0

Rights Note:

Unless otherwise noted, copyright is held by Peter Hongisberg. Under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International license, you are free to use and share these materials subject to the following conditions: You must attribute Peter Hongisberg as the rights holder. You may not use the material for commercial purposes. You may not distribute any modifications to the materials. For other uses, including commercial uses, please contact Rubenstein Library at http://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/ask.

Identifier:

e8594e414806390a74122bc1b266f193
witnesstoguantanamo
ark:/87924/r4sn07q21
f545e084-fdc3-468d-a4e5-651d89ea3a08

Permalink:

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Hicks, Bev - Interview master file

Transcript

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