Abbas, Rushan - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Good morning.

0:05

-

Good morning.

0:06

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:08

for participating in the witness to Guantanamo project.

0:09

We invite you to speak of your experiences

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representing and translating at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:16

We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity to

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tell your story in your own words.

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We are creating an archive of the stories

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so that people in America and around the world will have

0:29

a better understanding of what you have seen others

0:33

in Guantanamo endure.

0:38

Future generations must know what happened,

0:40

and by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:43

We appreciate your willingness to join and speak with us.

0:47

If at any time during the interview you want to

0:52

take a break, please let us know.

0:54

And if there's anything you say

0:56

that you would like us to remove, please let us

0:57

know and we will remove it.

0:59

So, thank you

1:02

Crew Member

One sec.

1:03

Interviewer

Okay.

1:04

Crew Member

Quick adjustment here.

1:05

Interviewer

Okay, I would like to begin with

1:08

some general information.

1:10

First, your name?

1:13

-

Rushan Abbas

1:15

-

Country of origin?

1:16

-

Country of origin, China.

1:20

-

Hometown?

1:23

-

Ürümqi

1:24

Interviewer

birthdate, and place?

1:26

-

June, 14 1967 in Ürümqi.

1:27

Interviewer

Age?

1:31

-

Forty-two

1:32

Interviewer

Nationality?

1:34

-

Uyghur

1:35

Interviewer

Languages?

1:36

-

Uyghur is my native language, and I also speak

1:38

Uzbeck, Kasakh, and Mandarin Chinese and Turkish.

1:39

Interviewer

And English.

1:43

-

And English; still learning English

1:44

-

Religion?

1:48

-

Muslim.

1:49

Interviewer

Children?

1:51

-

I have three children.

1:52

Two boys 18 and 15, and the girl is 13.

1:54

Interviewer

And your education?

1:59

-

I graduated college with a bachelor's degree in Biology,

2:02

and then I have some post graduate school

2:07

from Washington State University.

2:09

Interviewer

And you, where do you currently live?

2:13

-

I currently live in Reston, Virginia.

2:16

Interviewer

Okay, um...

2:22

(papers rustling)

2:24

-

Rushan, can you tell us something about your life

2:28

before you came to America?

2:30

-

Yes.

2:32

I was student in university,

2:33

and I was actively involved

2:36

with Uyghur human rights activities.

2:38

We formed a student organization promoting

2:42

the Uyghur rights and opposing

2:46

the nuclear testing in, in Lochner region.

2:50

And Lochner area in Xingjiang Autonomous Region.

2:54

And then we had A couple demonstrations

2:59

against the current regime, the policies.

3:02

Birth Control policies and the um,

3:07

the Uyghur education and unemployment rate.

3:09

Because when the Uyghur students graduate from college

3:15

and they can't get a job, the employers can tell

3:19

on their face that you are minority, you are Uyghur

3:23

and I don't want to give you a job and that's totally legal.

3:26

So we arranged a couple of demonstrations;

3:30

one in 1985 and one in 1988.

3:33

These are the four years from 84 to 88, I was in college.

3:37

And then when I graduated college,

3:42

I was labeled as politically untrust

3:45

I was labeled as politically untrust

3:47

person by the government.

3:50

And so my dad being a scientist there

3:52

and they have some influence in government.

3:55

So he arranged me to go to abroad to study.

3:58

So I came to the United States, 1989 to go to school.

4:02

Interviewer

Okay. Were you afraid for yourself,

4:06

and were you glad you were able to leave?

4:09

-

Yes. And that's what my father's fear as well.

4:11

If I have continued to stay, I could have get arrested

4:14

and get myself in trouble because

4:18

the speech and the expressing your thoughts,

4:23

that's not allowed in China,

4:26

and what we were doing was totally against

4:28

the policy that the communist China was imposing.

4:30

So my dad realized that with my political activities,

4:35

So my dad realized that with my political activities,

4:37

it wasn't safe for me to continue to stay there.

4:39

Interviewer

Did you know anyone in Washington

4:43

when you went there?

4:45

-

My father had some friends and some professors

4:46

in university and they, they came when I was the last year

4:50

in college to Ürümqi for visit.

4:53

And I met with them and we were a host

4:57

in our house a couple of times when they were in region.

5:00

So, and the one of them actually offered for me to come

5:04

to U.S. and study and live with them, which when

5:08

my dad arranged it, I stayed with this family.

5:12

They were sort of like my home away from home.

5:16

Crew Member

Let's stop for just a second.

5:19

Crew Member

Okay.

5:22

Interviewer

Did you know English

5:23

when you came to America?

5:24

-

No.

5:26

Just knew a few words when I first came.

5:27

Interviewer

And do you have any siblings who went

5:30

before you to America or were you the first?

5:33

-

No, I was the first.

5:35

My older brother was studying in New Zealand then,

5:37

and after I came, six months after I came to U.S.

5:40

he joined me here in the U.S.

5:44

Interviewer

Okay. So can you tell us a little bit

5:46

about your experience in the U.S. when you first arrived?

5:48

-

I came in May 9th, 1989.

5:52

And when they came to the United States,

5:57

the students in Beijing were demonstrating.

5:59

Basically they're taking over the whole Canon square.

6:03

The students democracy movement was really strong.

6:07

So, not knowing the English much,

6:12

and they try to learn at the same time

6:15

I came as the visiting scholar.

6:18

First, I was working in the research lab at the beginning

6:19

and then watching the news everyday, worrying

6:22

for the students, what will happen

6:25

Three weeks later I have watched how the military coming in

6:27

Three weeks later I have watched how the military coming in

6:30

and killing all the innocent students on the streets.

6:34

It was a horrible, horrible experience,

6:38

but I got to see it at least,

6:40

when people in China didn't even know

6:42

that actually happened.

6:45

So it was difficult at the beginning.

6:47

It was the first time I was living

6:50

from home and then young being youngest in the family,

6:52

I've never been away from my family, my parents.

6:56

But the family here host me was extremely nice.

6:59

And I noticed that all American people

7:03

are very friendly, very nice.

7:05

And the most of all, when I was living in

7:07

in China until I was 21 years old,

7:10

I have never felt that I had a country.

7:13

I never felt anything towards Chinese flag.

7:17

But when I came to U.S., instantly I felt like this

7:21

is a country that I wanted.

7:26

This is the country provides solid values,

7:28

and everything I ever wanted for my people.

7:31

And when I see U.S. flag, I just felt like this is my flag.

7:35

Interviewer

Hmm.

7:38

And were you able to call home whenever you wanted?

7:39

-

No. Back then it was extremely difficult to get one call

7:42

through actually; 20, 21 years ago.

7:47

So, It was like spending three or four days

7:51

try to get called connected and not always is successful.

7:55

We had to call from local phone line,

7:59

to United States International Operator,

8:03

International Operator will call

8:06

China international operator.

8:08

And then they will call Beijing,

8:10

The Beijing will connect through

8:12

the Xingjiang international - I mean, XingJiang Operator.

8:14

Then they will go through Ürümqi, then call my home.

8:18

By this time is it a time differences,

8:22

or some operator will not answer.

8:24

Or finally we got through, then it gets disconnected.

8:26

So, sometimes I would start calling like Friday night

8:29

and then Monday morning I just cancel

8:33

and then go back to school and just can't get through.

8:35

And then letter exchange, same thing.

8:39

Because China sensors all the letters.

8:41

Sometimes my mom would send me a letter saying

8:44

that I'm sending you these pictures

8:47

of family and I'm all excited.

8:49

But then when I opened the envelope, there's no picture.

8:51

It's just letter.

8:55

I don't know what happened to pictures.

8:56

And when I sent letters takes like

8:57

three to four weeks for them to get it.

9:00

So communication was really difficult.

9:02

Interviewer

And could you tell us a little bit about

9:05

what you're doing that in school,

9:06

and then what else happened, you know from 1989,

9:08

till 9/11

9:12

-

First, I came as a visiting scholar,

9:16

and worked in the research lab.

9:18

It was a Plant Pathology Lab working on the virus diseases,

9:20

and the Hops Hub virus.

9:25

And that's when I started to learn my English,

9:28

and the dictionary was my teacher.

9:32

Just to look up all the words from the dictionary,

9:35

and then living with American family,

9:37

that really helped as well.

9:41

At the beginning, they were speaking

9:43

to me in a very broken English

9:45

like "we eat" and "you go" kind of like that.

9:47

And then they have a daughter who was a language teacher,

9:51

and she spoke Spanish and French.

9:55

And then I, Jenny - Jenny Falconer,

9:58

And when she came for one weekend,

10:01

when she saw how her parents were speaking to me,

10:03

and she said Rushan will never learn English if you do this.

10:05

So you have to speak full sentence and then show her

10:08

in the dictionary, the words that she doesn't understand.

10:12

And that's how they started to speak to me.

10:14

And two months later I was picking up and speaking.

10:17

And then by like October,

10:22

five months after I came to the U.S.,

10:24

I took GRE exam and I got accepted for Graduate School

10:26

and I became Graduate Student.

10:30

And I was really excited because um,

10:33

being visiting scholar just working in the lab

10:36

was different than being actually student in the university.

10:40

Interviewer

Which university?

10:44

-

Washington State University.

10:45

And then after like two semesters, my major -

10:48

And then after like two semesters, my major -

10:52

Okay, do I want to go in there?

10:57

(laughing)

11:00

Then we got married.

11:02

I got married to one of the professors from the University.

11:04

Interviewer

Were you a majoring in Biology then?

11:10

-

Plant Pathology, yeah.

11:12

And my major professor, Bob Klein then,

11:15

he switched me over to another professor.

11:20

And I didn't really understand what was going

11:23

on because I enjoy having him as my advisor.

11:26

And he called for a committee meeting one day

11:31

and they switched me over to Dr. Mink,

11:33

And I was a little disappointed.

11:36

I thought I wasn't good enough to be his student.

11:38

Then he said, because I want to date you,

11:40

and I cannot ask you out while you are my student.

11:43

So, and then about six - seven months later

11:46

we got married and I was still continuing my studies

11:49

but then, I was pregnant right away.

11:52

And they delivered the baby in less than six months.

11:55

It was really dramatic having a hundred days

12:01

It was really dramatic having a hundred days

12:02

premature baby that basically ended my graduate school

12:06

and my science life there, and became mother.

12:10

Just took care of my son who was special needed,

12:15

who who's special needed, has Cerebral Palsy now.

12:19

And then I started to lose interest in scientists,

12:23

and because I was always interested in politics

12:29

and human rights started to educate myself

12:32

with different kind of like international relations

12:36

and political science classes.

12:42

I was just picking classes and local community college.

12:44

And then in 1997, Radio Free Asia added

12:48

And then in 1997, Radio Free Asia added

12:52

Uyghur service to their broadcasting service.

12:53

Uyghur service to their broadcasting service.

12:56

And I became a reporter for Radio Free Asian.

12:59

Interviewer

How did they find you?

13:03

-

They were looking for someone who speaks

13:05

all three languages; Chinese, Uyghur and English

13:08

who are eligible to work in U.S.

13:11

And back then, it was like only, probably about a hundred,

13:14

hundred and fifty Uyghur in the whole United States.

13:18

And did they had hard time finding someone who

13:22

qualifies; speaks all three languages.

13:24

And then somebody in Washington D.C.

13:28

contacted me; a Dalton Cambry.

13:32

He asked me to come to Washington,

13:34

and they did and interview for this position.

13:37

So I did, and then got the position became a reporter.

13:40

It was probably a different major

13:45

than what I had studied, but I enjoyed the,

13:47

got too involved with different the NGOs

13:49

and Human Rights Organizations.

13:54

Worked closely with Congressional Human Rights Caucus.

13:56

And Amnesty International Human Rights Watch;

14:02

Human Rights First.

14:04

Interviewer

Were you working out of Washington DC?

14:07

-

Yes

14:09

Interviewer

So you were now living in

14:10

Washington DC, right?

14:11

-

Right, I moved to Washington DC at the end of 1997.

14:12

Interviewer

And how long were you with Radio Free Asia?

14:18

-

Till 2000.

14:21

I quit in June, 2000 and moved back to California.

14:22

Interviewer

And why did you quit?

14:27

-

My ex husband now, my husband then,

14:29

he's supposed to, well he supported me

14:34

taking a position with Radio Free Asia.

14:37

And he said, you go ahead, go first;

14:40

and I'll join you after I get the job.

14:42

And I did, I moved and I wanted to take my kids with me

14:45

but then he was, I thought well,

14:48

he was being reasonable actually.

14:52

Then he was saying "it's new place, new career for you.

14:54

You can't do your job at the same time

14:57

take care of three kids."

15:01

By this time we have three kids.

15:02

So he told me to go alone

15:05

and then he will join me with kids.

15:08

And because it was, he said it was easier

15:10

for him to take care of the kids

15:13

knowing which daycare they go,

15:14

which school they go,

15:17

then me taking the kids to Washington DC

15:18

with totally new career.

15:20

And I did, I moved there and waited

15:22

for him to come and join me for two years.

15:24

And he kept saying that the, because

15:27

of him being in the University and in the research field,

15:29

it's difficult to get a job in DC,

15:33

and he's trying to get a job.

15:36

And then later was like uh, my field,

15:39

My major is Agriculture Plant Pathology.

15:43

And there's not much in DC and, but I'm still trying.

15:46

And I'm still trying like every three

15:48

four months I will come back

15:50

see the kids and it kept asking, "what's going on?"

15:52

"Are you applying for a job?"

15:55

"When are you going to join me with kids?"

15:56

And one day he called me up and he said, he's going

15:58

for interview for a position in Fresno, California.

16:01

I was like, okay, you know

16:05

I don't know much geography

16:07

but I know where California and Washington DC is.

16:09

But then he took that position in Fresno.

16:14

And then I realized that, okay, it's now it's my decision.

16:19

Is there a continuing my career

16:22

or quit my job and join him and the family.

16:24

So that's what I did; I quit my job, came to Fresno.

16:27

Interviewer

Can you tell us what happened then?

16:32

When you were in Fresno?

16:33

-

I was working for a International Trading Company.

16:35

As the International Business Coordinator.

16:40

And then this is like early spring of 2002; March or April.

16:44

And then this is like early spring of 2002; March or April.

16:49

Something like that.

16:53

I got called one day from someone.

16:54

Let me go back a little bit.

16:57

I was out one Friday for lunch,

17:00

and then when I came back and it was like three or

17:03

four emails from different people in Washington, DC.

17:04

All same subject line.

17:08

'Need a language support in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

17:09

Looking for a U.S. citizen to work in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

17:13

as a translator for Uyghurs.'

17:16

I'm like, what is this?

17:19

Well, I know after 9/11, we went to Afghanistan

17:20

and we brought some apparent suspects to Guantanamo.

17:24

But I did know there were Uyghurs there.

17:28

I just ignored it because I never thought

17:31

that I will be going to the Guantanamo Bay.

17:33

And then next day morning,

17:36

Saturday morning around eight o'clock, I got call

17:38

from someone who introduced himself as the

17:41

the Vice President of the Contractor

17:45

for Department of Defense.

17:49

It was called Titan, then

17:52

And now it's L-3 communication.

17:53

And he was like,

17:56

"Oh, we have been waiting for you for two months.

17:57

We have, we were sitting in Guantanamo since February

18:00

and we can't find anybody who's U.S. citizen

18:04

and speaks those languages.

18:08

And you are the only one.

18:10

We have contacted so many different people and everybody's

18:11

pointing us to you, and if you can come

18:13

and work in Guantanamo Bay."

18:16

I was like, "no way."

18:18

(laughing)

18:20

And I'm sorry, I'm not going to Guantanamo.

18:21

I'm not a translator.

18:23

And I'm not going to.

18:27

Interviewer

Why didn't you want to go?

18:28

-

it was like,

18:30

when you hear the terrorist suspect,

18:31

all this Islamic Jihadist or people who's responsible

18:34

for 9/11 and you work with them, you translate for them.

18:37

I was like, no way.

18:41

I didn't know anything about the-

18:42

who are these people and what's going on there.

18:44

So I just automatically didn't want to even listen

18:48

to the end of the conversation.

18:51

I just said like, "I'm sorry. No, I'm not going."

18:53

And then he kept explaining to me

18:55

that how important this is for the nation.

18:57

And we have all these people sitting there,

19:00

they withhold all kinds of Intel,

19:03

that we need to save our people.

19:06

We need to get to the bottom of their head.

19:09

And the interrogators cannot do that

19:12

without the language support.

19:14

And I need to do this.

19:17

And so at the end of the conversation,

19:21

and I still kept saying no, and he says

19:23

"please think about it. Don't say no, just think about it.

19:25

Then let us know, and I will call you Monday."

19:28

So I talked to my husband and I told him

19:31

this is what they are saying it.

19:34

I was like, you know, I'm all scared because

19:36

I'm not really practicing Muslim and I don't cover.

19:39

And they, when you hear Islamic jihad,

19:43

all I know is they don't even talk to women.

19:46

You know, like all kinds of extremism kind of things

19:49

that I hear from people that I have never experienced.

19:53

So I was telling my husband that, you know

19:57

I don't know who these Uyghur people are.

19:58

I don't know why they were there.

20:00

And they, they got caught among

20:02

the Tali bombs

20:07

or Al Qaeda or whatever you name it.

20:08

Arabs, or Jihadist and the I'm not going to go.

20:10

And it was just telling him all this.

20:13

And then he listened to me first,

20:15

then he said, you know, when you became U.S. citizen

20:16

you took an oath.

20:20

You pledge to this country.

20:22

You said that if this country ever need your service,

20:23

you will do your part; And here's your chance.

20:26

And I was speechless.

20:31

I was like, well, didn't think about it that way.

20:32

So then I realized yes,

20:36

this is my chance to serve my country.

20:38

And I know it's difficult and someplace

20:40

that never heard of with, you know, being terrorist camp.

20:44

that never heard of with, you know, being terrorist camp.

20:48

I'm in like a jail that's holding all the terrorists.

20:50

But then when I think about the way

20:55

that Bob mentioned to me, I was like, yeah

20:58

I think this is the right thing to do.

21:00

And then Monday when the gentleman called me back

21:03

and I said, okay, I will go.

21:07

And then it was funny actually

21:08

when I said I would go, he was like, okay

21:10

can you be on the plane tomorrow morning at eight?

21:11

I was like, no.

21:13

They gave me like a week to get ready.

21:17

And the, he was trying to tell me all

21:23

And the, he was trying to tell me all

21:26

about the salary and the incentives and this and that.

21:28

And I said, you know, there's not amount

21:32

of money you will pay me to get me away

21:36

from my children and get me over to Guantanamo Bay.

21:39

But the only condition I will ask is I have to come back

21:42

to California every six to eight weeks, see my kids.

21:48

if you will make sure that I have that privilege,

21:52

then I will go and they agreed.

21:55

Interviewer

They had said to you,

21:57

you would be living Guantanamo?

21:58

You understood that?

22:01

-

They said that I'll be going there

22:03

at least for six months.

22:05

And I'll be staying there for six months.

22:07

Basically what they said was like straight six months,

22:09

no break, no coming for visit.

22:12

And that's when I said, I'm not interested

22:14

in the money and the different incentives there,

22:17

but I have to come and see my kids.

22:20

I cannot be away from them for six months.

22:22

And they agreed.

22:25

So, they said they will arrange that.

22:26

And they kept their promise, actually

22:28

I kept coming back to see my kids every couple of months.

22:30

Interviewer

So can you describe how it was,

22:34

when you first arrived?

22:36

-

First, I went to Washington DC,

22:39

and then they did some like background checks

22:43

and the fingerprints and health check to get me ready.

22:48

and the fingerprints and health check to get me ready.

22:51

I think did the security clearance,

22:55

and they've issued badges.

22:58

And then I was sent to Fort Benning, Georgia

23:00

for the commerce replacement center for deployment.

23:04

That's when I was like, okay, what did I get myself into?

23:09

I have never been in the military.

23:12

And why do I go through a place that deploy the military

23:14

for hostile, you know, the situation.

23:20

And they showed camouflage and they all kind of

23:23

like emergency kit.

23:27

And the um, what do you call it?

23:29

Like a dog tag with your name.

23:31

And then I was like, what is this for?

23:34

Well, if something happens to you it'll identify your body

23:36

Okay, where am I going anyway?

23:41

Am I going to Afghanistan,

23:42

or am I going to Naval base in Guantanamo?

23:44

So we spent two weeks in the Fort Benning, Georgia

23:49

basically getting up at four o'clock in the morning,

23:52

And then they would put us in formation

23:56

with military uniforms,

23:59

Interviewer

Who was 'us'?

24:01

-

Um, military, I guess, DoD.

24:02

Interviewer

It wasn't other translators?

24:06

You were the only translator.

24:08

Who were the other people?

24:10

-

There were some other translators as well.

24:11

Some Afghani, Pashto, Dari translators and all men.

24:14

I was the only female.

24:19

As we were, I think, about fifteen, twenty people.

24:23

And then we were mixed with all the military

24:27

there in Fort Benning, Georgia.

24:29

And so we were being treated exactly the same

24:32

as the people who's being deployed.

24:35

People were going to Bosnia.

24:38

People were going to Afghanistan.

24:39

People are coming back from war.

24:42

And I was in this like room, was like double beds.

24:44

And they've in the middle of the night when I'm sleeping,

24:50

people will arrive.

24:52

They're all really upset,

24:53

because they just came back from war in Bosnia.

24:55

So, I was like totally lifetime experience.

25:01

I never thought that I will be

25:04

living through something like that.

25:05

And then actually the the worst experience was,

25:08

well, I guess, you know,

25:12

you understand how the military people feel

25:14

and to do, I guess that's that's

25:17

when I really realized like, okay, this is not

25:20

just the some simple translation tasks somewhere.

25:23

This is really serious.

25:27

When day before we supposed to leave,

25:29

and we were going through,

25:32

like we had this file in our hand

25:34

going through each station to get check, say good to go.

25:36

So we got all the stamps to, to deploy.

25:40

And then at one point when I came

25:44

to one desk and the guy looked at my papers and said

25:45

we don't have your kin, next of kin or something like that.

25:49

And I didn't, I, you know

25:53

I don't know those terms and like, what is that?

25:54

And he said, who's going to claim your remains?

25:57

I was like, Alrighty, who's going to attack us there?

26:02

And the who's going to protect us?

26:06

Where am I going anyway?

26:10

And then I have to put down somebody's name,

26:14

If something happens to me they will get my body

26:16

and like, okay I have three kids

26:18

and I'm just going to go for translate.

26:22

I know this is important mission, but I didn't know

26:24

this is what I have to go through.

26:30

I guess that each day when we experienced

26:32

something like that,

26:34

it made me feel how important this task was.

26:35

And how government is taking so seriously

26:38

even just the translators.

26:41

And we had to go through the full military scale

26:43

of deploying us to just go there and do a translation.

26:47

Interviewer

Did you think of changing your mind?

26:52

-

No. I didn't think of changing my mind,

26:55

but each step just made me feel that this is so serious.

26:57

This is not just a translating

27:02

for somebody which I have never done in my life.

27:04

But um, I guess just the each step each day made me feel

27:08

that the Guantanamo Bay was something really important

27:13

and really serious thing.

27:19

It wasn't just that we have some people

27:20

and we need to know who they are.

27:23

Interviewer

And how do you feel about

27:24

being the only civilian?

27:26

Crew Member

Can we stop for just a sec?

27:28

Interviewer

Sure.

27:30

So how do you feel about being the only woman,

27:31

I guess translator, or maybe the only woman or the base?

27:35

I couldn't quite tell.

27:38

-

I was the only female civilian translator.

27:40

There are some female like military personnel,

27:44

but there was no any other civilian contractor

27:50

supporting joint Task Force.

27:54

Interviewer

What did they treat you well?

27:57

-

Yeah, Actually, I felt really good because when I arrived

28:00

to the base, she, I have been told by other linguists

28:04

they are joking, sort of, some people were jealous and "wow

28:10

you are getting special treatment."

28:16

Then we had a meeting yesterday and there was

28:18

this female coming.

28:21

There's absolutely zero, zero tolerance.

28:22

And there any kind of harassment, if she leaves the base

28:26

you are responsible to replace her.

28:29

And so people were joking and says, you are untouchable.

28:31

We cannot come close to you.

28:34

We can not joke around with you.

28:35

And then they put me in a cul-de-sac quarters in

28:37

the in cul-de-sac.

28:42

they call it Generals cul-de-sac.

28:43

Where the Commanding General lived;

28:46

Major General Don levy and all his high ranking officers.

28:48

Colonel Cumming, who was the chief of staff

28:52

was directly across -

28:55

Interviewer

Is this in Guantanamo

28:56

or is this still in Georgia?

28:59

-

In Guantanamo.

29:00

Yeah. That's where I lived for nine months.

29:01

Interviewer

Okay. Before we get to Guantanamo,

29:04

is there anything else in Georgia that happened?

29:05

-

No, I think it's just

29:10

that we have been treated exactly

29:11

the same way as the military

29:13

Got us up like two in the morning,

29:15

said that we are ready to deploy.

29:16

And we got on the bus in the middle of night

29:18

with huge big duffel bag, three duffel bags.

29:20

And I didn't know how to carry that.

29:24

And like, I only have two arms and there's three of them.

29:26

What do I do with that?

29:29

And everybody has three.

29:31

So people couldn't help me carry around so, was interesting.

29:32

Interviewer

Did you have any physical training too,

29:37

at the base?

29:38

-

They trained how to use the gas mask.

29:39

And then the little bit of training

29:44

on how to protect us if there's an attack.

29:47

Interviewer

Even though you're going to Guantanamo?

29:53

-

Yeah, it was funny that that's why I kept questioning.

29:55

I thought this is not hostile place.

29:57

You know, this is supposed to be just the military base.

30:01

There is no war going on.

30:04

I don't understand why we are doing this.

30:06

And it always, some sometimes that's a joke,

30:08

sometimes a serious answer, I get the response I get is

30:12

while it's Cuba, Castros right there.

30:16

You never know.

30:19

Interviewer

And then, then they put you on a plane,

30:23

a military plane?

30:26

or how did you get to Guantanamo?

30:27

-

It was chartered plane.

30:29

We drove from, we left like two o'clock

30:30

in the morning from Fort Benning,

30:33

drove to Jacksonville, Florida, the Naval base there.

30:36

And then you took the plane and arrived in Guantanamo.

30:41

Interviewer

And 'we' are the other translators and you?

30:46

-

Yes.

30:48

Interviewer

And then what happened when you arrived?

30:49

-

Some military people picked me up from the airport

30:54

and they took me over to the Winward side.

30:58

The airport was in the Leeward side.

31:01

So we took the ferry to Winward side and then they

31:03

did they like in-process,

31:10

check me out then issued badge,

31:14

and then brought me to the language cell,

31:17

introduced me to my OIC.

31:19

And the officer in charge for the language cell was,

31:21

I think he was Captain.

31:25

He was the Army Captain.

31:30

So we were basically reporting to a Captain and

31:34

they being treated again exactly the way the military was.

31:37

Interviewer

And then how was it, did-

31:42

from the first day I did the immediately bring you

31:44

in to do translation or how did it, what had happened?

31:47

-

It did briefing next day,

31:52

and then took me to observation room to show me,

31:54

I mean to have me watch the other translators.

31:58

How they translate for the interrogation,

32:02

and they did that for like a couple of days.

32:05

So I was ready in like two days.

32:10

So I watched like Arab translators or Pashto,

32:12

or different people.

32:16

How they translate.

32:17

Interviewer

Were you still thinking

32:19

these were terrorists and that you were afraid of them?

32:20

-

Yeah. I didn't know who they were,

32:22

and I had no idea what to expect.

32:25

I didn't know how they ended up in Afghanistan.

32:28

And to me at that time everybody in Afghanistan,

32:30

who got arrested by U.S. military,

32:34

were terrorists who was responsible 9/11.

32:36

That's what I had been told..

32:39

Interviewer

And that's what you were

32:41

still thinking at that time?

32:42

-

Mhmm, yeah.

32:44

Interviewer

So how was it when you were,

32:45

the first time you had to do it?

32:47

-

The first interrogation when I went in,

32:50

when I was there for a couple of DoD interrogators

32:56

and then another civilian interrogator from agency.

33:02

And they just like once third way through interrogation,

33:07

I realize they are not who I thought.

33:11

Interviewer

On the first day?

33:18

-

The first day., yeah.

33:19

The guy we, that, that we interviewed,

33:21

he was really happy to see me.

33:27

which in the Islamic extremist will not really

33:30

happy to see a female.

33:34

And he directly look at my face,

33:35

looked into my eyes and talk to me.

33:39

Actually, interrogator was getting upset.

33:41

Said "look at me, I'm asking you a question,

33:42

look at my eyes."

33:45

And he wouldn't because I am the one who's talking to him.

33:46

I'm the one that's translating,

33:48

So he just looks at me the whole time.

33:49

And he was very respectful to me.

33:52

And then when the interrogator was asking him, who is he,

33:55

Where he's from, how he got to Afghanistan,

34:00

why he was in Afghanistan?

34:04

Everything he's saying is everything that I know

34:07

from bottom of my heart,

34:10

how Uyghur people feel that when they are in Xingjiang

34:12

under the communist Chinese regime.

34:17

He was not there, and he didn't talk anything

34:20

about Islam or Muslims, all his talking about this Uyghurs.

34:25

And he was so pleased to be there in American custody.

34:29

And he was saying things like that,

34:37

the Uyghur people, the only hope that Uyghur

34:39

people have is the Americans help,

34:44

because he believes United States

34:47

is the one and the only country defense,

34:51

Uyghur people's human rights.

34:53

And he wanted to know if there is any hope

34:56

that United States will support the Uyghur independence.

35:00

So I just know, like talking with him for like half an hour

35:08

I realized that this is not what I expected.

35:14

And you can tell that he's very sincere because I hear

35:19

in their own, their mother tongue, I hear the emotions

35:23

and the tone and the words they use.

35:28

And he wasn't lying.

35:31

It was really coming from his heart

35:33

Interviewer

Did you say anything to

35:36

the interrogator about that?

35:37

-

Interrogators also felt, you know, like they

35:38

they kept saying, we, we took a couple

35:42

of breaks in between; coffee breaks.

35:44

When we go out, speaking among ourselves

35:46

the interrogator will say,

35:49

"gosh these guys shouldn't be here."

35:50

And "they just very unfortunate that they are here."

35:52

"they shouldn't be here."

35:57

And they knew, I guess they have been interrogated in,

35:59

in Afghanistan when they were there.

36:02

And it, I guess the interrogators had their files.

36:05

And they said that they weren't just arrested.

36:08

Who knows what they were doing,

36:11

but they are not part of the terrorists suspects

36:13

that we thought that we brought in.

36:19

Interviewer

So your whole sense changed

36:21

after that person or during that first incident?

36:24

-

The first interrogation,

36:26

after like halfway through the interrogation,

36:28

the person started to mention the names

36:33

that's very familiar to me.

36:36

They're like my father's friends.

36:39

All the intellectuals in my University,

36:41

and the the people I know.

36:45

The human rights activists overseas,

36:47

that Uyghur community leaders in Europe, Central Asia.

36:50

And I'm like, who is this person?

36:54

You know, he kept throwing these names

36:57

at me that I recognize and watching me like, my reaction is.

37:00

Then at the end of the interrogation,

37:04

when the interrogator asked, "do you have any final thoughts

37:07

or anything else you want to tell me?"

37:11

He said, "no, not to you, but can I talk to the translator?"

37:13

And he said, "sure."

37:17

Then he told me, "translate everything back to me

37:18

whatever he says to you."

37:21

I said, "okay.'

37:22

And then he had this bright smile on his face and looked

37:24

at me and says, "I'm so glad you came as our translator."

37:28

I said, "Oh, do you know me?"

37:32

He goes, "yes, you are Rushan Abbas."

37:34

I'm like, what?

37:37

I didn't feel anything,

37:40

and I wasn't like scared that he recognized me.

37:41

But the interrogators, just when he heard my name just

37:44

"let's go with, it's finished" then he just said goodbye,

37:50

and it took me out of the room.

37:53

And then it was reported to the Chief of Staff

37:55

and the Commanding General and hour later,

37:59

and they were talking with me asking, well, first

38:02

they were surprised how he recognized me.

38:07

And I said, well, this, this person was in Central Asia

38:09

in '95, '96.

38:12

And then I was there in 95.

38:15

I went to this Uyghur cultural event.

38:16

And I was at this stage as one of the honorable guests

38:19

from United States.

38:24

I was the only one who went there.

38:25

And then another thing is he kept mentioning how

38:27

he heard the news in Radio Free Asia

38:30

how he used to listen to Radio Free Asia.

38:32

And then he introduced the Radio Free Asia,

38:34

Uyghur programmed while I was reporter there.

38:38

And I also broadcast the whole Uyghur program.

38:41

And it's my voice.

38:45

It could be either way.

38:46

He could recognize my voice or have seen me in Central Asia.

38:48

And then Commanding General, ask me

38:52

"how do you feel for your safety?"

38:55

And I said, if I was here with the Chinese delegation,

38:59

And I would be scared because they think that I worked

39:04

for Chinese government, and they may not like that.

39:07

Because the whole, this three, four hours of interrogation

39:10

I felt all the resentment they have is

39:14

against the Communist regime.

39:16

But I'm here with U.S. government,

39:20

with U.S. military personnel.

39:22

And they, they have nothing against the American government

39:25

and they were so happy to be in American custody here.

39:30

So I don't feel any danger to my safety and I feel fine.

39:33

So he says, 'okay, then you can continue your work."

39:37

Interviewer

Do you mind-

39:41

I don't know if are you okay telling us who that Uyghur was?

39:42

Who recognized you or?

39:45

-

Yeah, it was (indistinct).

39:47

Interviewer

Oh.

39:49

Did other Uyghurs recognize you too,

39:50

when you were interrogating them?

39:53

-

Yeah, a young guy who actually the youngest among them,

39:55

he called me on my radio name, he didn't know my real name.

40:00

In radio I used the radio name Arman,

40:05

and he called me Ms. Arman.

40:09

And I'm like, "what are you saying?"

40:13

I think he says, I recognize your voice.

40:16

You use the speak in Radio Free Asia,

40:19

I used to listen to that radio.

40:21

And then, and a (indistinct) from Uzbeckistan actually,

40:24

he also recognized me from radio.

40:27

He says, and actually right at the beginning

40:29

of the interrogation, since I started it,

40:33

I actually just said, hi to Salaam and he goes

40:34

"Oh wow, Your voice exactly the same on the radio."

40:38

I'm like, "okay, well, where did you hear that radio?"

40:41

He says, when I was in (indistinct), I used to listen.

40:45

Interviewer

And the military was fine with this

40:49

again and again?

40:50

And could you tell us a little bit about you started to -

40:51

but I went back to Georgia, but now we're

40:55

in Guantanamo about being the only civilian woman

40:57

and where exactly you were staying,

41:00

and why that was significant for you.

41:02

Can you described that a little bit?

41:06

-

I guess all the linguists,

41:09

they were staying in the housing

41:10

in another neighborhood, I think called Winward loop

41:13

in little area that is for men in one quarter..

41:19

Excuse me.

41:27

It is a two bedroom, two bathroom, like townhouse style.

41:28

Housing is living Room and a kitchen,

41:33

and there's two men in each room.

41:35

So four people in one quarter

41:37

and the all male is like thirty to forty linguists

41:39

from all over to, I mean languages

41:43

spoken all over the world.

41:45

I think I heard like 38 languages spoken

41:47

in Guantanamo at one point.

41:50

And the, I had that just for myself,

41:53

the two bedroom, two bathroom condo.

41:56

And I was the only one that I didn't have any roommate.

41:58

And there was and little cul-de-sac

42:01

where we had all the Colonels

42:06

and Lieutenant Colonels and General, Major General there.

42:08

And then I think it was, August and yeah

42:13

I think it was August.

42:19

I had the one roommate who was the military Colonel

42:20

Colonel Beaver, Lieutenant Colonel Beaver, Diane Beaver.

42:26

She was JAG to Commanding General Don levy.

42:30

She was my roommate.

42:33

And the think military had a little bit of trouble,

42:35

having her stay in my house

42:38

because I was civilian and she's military.

42:42

They usually don't mix the civilian and military.

42:45

But then I was the only female civilian there.

42:47

She was the only high ranking military officer,

42:51

And then she's supposed to have a housing

42:54

in that the high ranking Officers cul-de-sac.

42:57

So, she became my roommate.

43:00

Interviewer

Did, did you get to talk to her?

43:02

She, she is known as someone who was involved

43:05

in some of the harsh treatment in Guantanamo.

43:07

Did she ever talk to you about that?

43:10

-

No, we, we became very good friends, actually.

43:13

She was a very nice person, as a person.

43:16

And we talked a lot, but not so much about the mission.

43:21

We talked about the Uyghurs and she always used,

43:24

it felt really sympathetic to Uyghurs.

43:28

She said they were just wrong place

43:29

at the wrong time and they, we need to get them out.

43:31

But to where we know we can't send them back to China.

43:36

They, Commanding General and the Colonel Beaver,

43:42

who was her, his, well um JAG.

43:46

They, used to sit down to chat and sometimes over the beer

43:52

or drink and they start to go into some conversations

43:56

about the interrogations or some issues.

44:00

And they, if I'm there with them

44:03

I don't feel comfortable because I'm not in the military,

44:06

And some of things are way over my comprehensive.

44:08

So I just get up and to go back.

44:13

I noticed that they were proposing something more harsh

44:15

and she was, you know, she was a kind

44:23

of person that just has very strong personality.

44:27

I, I did have problems a couple of times,

44:34

what I have observed in observation for the other inmates.

44:36

And I did mention to her

44:43

over the dinner or when we are sitting

44:45

and having coffee in the morning and I used to complain.

44:47

I said, this, this is not what I know about United States.

44:50

This is Human Rights abuse.

44:55

This is attacking the religion.

44:57

Cause I have witnessed some things that I

45:00

shouldn't have seen, actually.

45:03

When I was waiting for my mission and they began,

45:04

we can't just stay in the hallway.

45:07

So going to observation room sometimes,

45:09

you just sit there and hear and watch

45:11

what happened in the interrogation room.

45:13

And she would say

45:16

"there are some really bad people here, Rushan.

45:17

This is the only way we get the information out."

45:20

Interviewer

Do you, could you tell us

45:23

some of the things you witnessed?

45:25

-

The first one that I have ever witnessed was,

45:30

and then later on it repeated a few times

45:33

and then it got even worse.

45:36

The first one was I walked in,

45:38

and then because when they first came

45:40

they made me observe the other Arabic linguists translation.

45:44

So when I walked into observation room,

45:50

I just decided to listen to the translator.

45:53

And so I picked up the headphone,

45:56

and I can see through the window.

45:58

Then I heard interrogator yelling at this guy,

46:03

he was a Yemeni detainee.

46:06

He's sitting headway down, just look really sad.

46:09

It never lifted up his head, I couldn't see his face.

46:13

And then the interrogator was yelling

46:18

at the translator, was he translating what he's saying.

46:19

And I didn't, I didn't quite get what they were talking

46:23

about at the beginning.

46:26

He was saying, "who give it to you?"

46:27

"How many times did you get?"

46:30

"who give it to you?"

46:31

"Was it your brother?"

46:32

"How did it feel?"

46:33

And stuff like that.

46:34

Then I was like, okay, maybe it was some information

46:35

or some, some weapon or something they are talking about.

46:38

Then later I realized that he was talking about sexually,

46:43

who basically did what to you kind of thing.

46:46

He, the guy felt so humiliated.

46:52

I could see just like more and more

46:55

his head was coming down and they will yell,

46:57

and they interrogate or come into his face.

47:00

"Look at me, look at my face."

47:03

"I want to see your face."

47:04

"How did it feel?"

47:05

"Was it your older brother?"

47:07

And it just, it was really bad.

47:09

So when I realized what they are talking

47:12

about, I took my headphone off and I left the room.

47:14

Second time was a female interrogator.

47:18

Again, it was the another Arab guy.

47:23

It was during Ramadan actually.

47:26

And all the inmates, they fast during Ramadan.

47:28

And then this female interrogator was all over him,

47:33

sitting on his lap, she took her a uniform off

47:38

and she had like really open revealing tank,

47:42

tank top underneath her.

47:45

And she was like, rubbing her chest, touching his body.

47:48

The guy was crying because it breaks his fast.

47:55

And she was laughing and she was doing all kinds

48:02

of things to him, like touching and playing with him.

48:05

And the, you can tell, he's just trying to disappear

48:09

from that chair and try not to look at her,

48:13

tried to pull himself away from her.

48:17

And I have seen something like that

48:22

later on a couple of times as well.

48:24

Interviewer

Do you know if that detainee was 061?

48:28

Do you know what the number that detainee was?

48:31

-

I don't know.

48:33

Back then, I didn't even know what language they spoke,

48:34

other than some sort of Arabic.

48:37

It was like different linguists

48:40

for different Arabic, like Egyptian Arabic

48:42

and Iraqi Arabic or Saudi Arabia or stuff like that.

48:45

Interviewer

So you weren't sure his nationality?

48:49

-

That first guy that got verbal abuse, he was Yemenis.

48:51

The guard came in to observation when I was leaving

48:55

and I asked him, where's he from?

49:00

He said, he's Yemenis.

49:01

Interviewer

So were you able to talk

49:04

to the staff about this at all?

49:07

Or did -

49:09

-

I did mention to Colonel Beaver and I complain.

49:10

Interviewer

And, and did that

49:16

make you more compromised as to your work?

49:17

Did, did that color your work at all?

49:22

Or you felt -

49:24

-

So she just told me not to talk about it, leave it alone.

49:26

And then these people are not what it seems to be.

49:31

This is the only way get the information out.

49:36

Interviewer

And what were you glad

49:41

that Colonel Beaver was there,

49:44

at least you had another woman to talk to

49:45

or did that help at all?

49:47

-

Yeah it did, actually.

49:48

Interviewer

And you had the Colonel's ear on the base.

49:51

And did you have the Colonel's ear?

49:53

Did you have other people's ear that you could talk

49:56

to that maybe you had more access than other people did?

49:59

-

Because I was the only interpreter for Uyghurs,

50:04

only translator for Uyghurs;

50:08

interrogators, they switch, they rotate every,

50:10

at the beginning it was only like every six weeks.

50:13

The date, the interrogators from agencies like FBI, CIA

50:17

NCIS, and the different people from different agencies.

50:20

They come and they leave every six weeks or eight weeks.

50:23

And I'm the only one there.

50:28

So I have the whole story, you know.

50:30

Like what the detainee said, and what happened next.

50:33

One thing really bothered me was,

50:36

they were only looking for certain words

50:42

during the interrogation.

50:45

And then they will take the detainees words

50:48

out of content and put together a different,

50:52

like different version of the interrogation.

50:55

And then next interrogator comes in with this record,

51:00

they will ask questions like,

51:03

"Oh, you were up on the Tora Bora with Arabs,

51:05

and talk to this Arab.

51:09

what did he say to you?"

51:11

And then detainee will say, "no, I was not there with Arabs.

51:13

I never talked to any Arabs."

51:16

And then he will look at me like you translate it.

51:18

You know, did you translate wrong?

51:20

I didn't say this.

51:22

And I will tell the interrogator.

51:24

And where did you get this?

51:26

Because I was translating,

51:28

and he never said something like this.

51:29

And then he'll say

51:32

"here this is what the interrogate record says.

51:33

This is what the other interrogator wrote."

51:35

When this kind of thing kept happening,

51:38

what really bothered me was one time when FBI agents slept

51:40

through the interrogation.

51:44

For two and a half hours, he slept.

51:45

When we were going over to the interrogation,

51:47

he said that he did snorkeling or scuba diving all night,

51:49

and he was really tired.

51:53

And when we got there,

51:55

we were in with two DoD interrogator and one FBI agent.

51:56

And then the DoD interrogator was asking the questions.

51:59

And then I heard like, sort of, not snoring

52:03

but like heavy breathing.

52:05

And I looked and he's sleeping there on the chair.

52:07

And I looked at the DoD interrogater,

52:09

It's like, he's sleeping.

52:13

They just said "leave him alone. Let him sleep."

52:14

because they didn't want him to ask questions, interrupter.

52:16

So he just went on with his question.

52:18

But I kept thinking,

52:21

okay so we are here for two and a half hours.

52:23

He slept through for like two hours.

52:27

What is he going to write

52:29

in his report from this interrogation?

52:30

Because he didn't hear anything.

52:33

And then after that kind of like,

52:40

it kept having that kind of information that's not accurate.

52:43

I went to the person in charge for FBI and I reported that.

52:49

I said, I'm the only translator here.

52:53

I know what I translated, what the detainees said.

52:57

And that's not what your guys are writing in report here.

53:01

And I don't like this because it's my credibility.

53:05

If the detainee said, "that's not what I said."

53:09

And if that's what interrogator wrote,

53:12

could be it's me that translated wrong.

53:15

Or it's your interrogator who didn't write in the right way.

53:17

And I said, your interrogators sit there,

53:22

and they say nothing.

53:26

And then when he hears 'Arab', when he hears 'Taliban'

53:27

he just jumps in and says, Oh, what's there Arabs?.

53:31

Then he just quickly write something down,

53:33

without knowing what the question was at the beginning

53:35

And what was the end.

53:37

And it's not accurate here.

53:39

And then what's that name?

53:42

I don't remember guy's last name or first name was John.

53:44

John Macer or something like that.

53:48

And he asked me to do a written report on this.

53:51

And I did.

53:54

I wrote up like three page written complaint.

53:55

Interviewer

To whom?

53:59

-

To FBI, the person in charge for the FBI.

54:00

Interviewer

Did you ever hear back from them?

54:03

-

No, I just give it to that person.

54:05

And I wrote a few incidents like that,

54:07

which date interrogators slept through,

54:10

and which day is that they don't pay attention.

54:13

They will walk out of the room for coffee,

54:17

and comes back after fifteen, twenty minutes

54:19

with a cup of coffee and sits there.

54:21

And then when he hears the word 'Arab' and he quickly writes

54:24

down a bunch of stuff,

54:27

and then like when somebody else comes

54:28

in and takes over his term, because he usually goes home

54:31

in six weeks.

54:34

when another FBI agent comes in,

54:36

the records is totally wrong.

54:38

It's not accurate.

54:41

So, anyway.

54:42

Interviewer

Could you describe, I didn't quite get it.

54:44

So there's an interrogator from the DoD, always?

54:46

T interrogate is always from the DoD?

54:50

And then is there always an FBI agent in the room as well?

54:52

And as the FBI agents responsibilities to

54:55

ask questions as well, or just to listen?

54:58

how did you see the -

55:02

-

We always have one DoD interrogator

55:04

and one civilian interrogator,

55:07

which is, could be FBI, could be NCIS,

55:10

could be the Air Force Intelligence Agency,

55:12

or from a NSA or somebody.

55:14

Usually the DoD interrogator

55:19

is in charge for asking questions;

55:20

but then the civilian interrogator would jump in,

55:24

interrupt the questions and ask something

55:28

If they feel that they need to clarify something.

55:31

So I guess from that one incident,

55:35

when the FBI agent fell asleep when I told him the

55:37

DoD interrogator he's sleeping, he said, let him sleep.

55:39

I guess they don't like getting interrupted by them.

55:43

So they don't really want them to ask questions.

55:46

Interviewer

Right.

55:49

And with a civilian, I mean the civilian interrogators

55:50

or the civilian who were there,

55:54

were they supposed to coordinate their work with each other?

55:57

Or was it arbitrary which civilian was there each time?

56:01

Would always be a different civilian every time

56:04

you interview the same person?

56:06

it didn't matter?

56:08

-

The civilian interrogator usually just come in,

56:10

let's say if the DoD interrogator, interrogates same person

56:13

five times, let's say.

56:19

He will only come in one or twice.

56:22

And then the other three times, it will be somebody else.

56:25

Or if he will, may not come in.

56:27

If it's same ISN number, say detainee

56:29

I think they feel that they've got enough.

56:31

And another thing I notice is from the early stage,

56:34

the civilian interrogators lost interest in Uyghurs.

56:37

They felt it's just, you know, useless.

56:41

They are not who we thought they are.

56:44

They have nothing to do this what's happening.

56:47

I think they also knew from the beginning

56:49

that they were turning in for bounties.

56:51

And, but the DoD was more thrill, more detail.

56:54

And keep trying to verify,

56:58

keep repeating the questions, you know.

57:00

Just same question asked again and again, and again.

57:01

Just keep going the interrogation.

57:05

But the FBI, for them it's like whatever,

57:07

you know, just spending two hours

57:12

and sleeps through or leave the room, get coffee.

57:14

Interviewer

Were these interrogations videotaped

57:17

-

There is the civilian CCTV camera in the room.

57:22

Should be, it should be taped.

57:28

But then later on when the attorneys asked

57:31

for interrogation records,

57:34

I think they have been told that they can't find any.

57:36

So I don't know tapes were destroyed,

57:41

or if it wasn't being taped.

57:43

Also there is like equipment to tape,

57:45

So I'm not sure I'm what.

57:48

Interviewer

You didn't see an audio tape?

57:49

-

No.

57:51

Interviewer

And what was your feeling

57:54

about Guantanamo overall?

57:56

Did it change as the times went on,

57:57

or would you see differences from when you first arrived

58:00

where the men were in later on?

58:04

And what else did you observe?

58:06

-

At the beginning, I thought,

58:10

yeah, they are all dangerous people.

58:15

So we should treat them really harshly.

58:17

They deserve all this, what's going on.

58:19

And then after a couple of months

58:24

and talking with other translators from other countries,

58:27

and talking with MPs,

58:32

and they translators who are translating for 160.

58:37

Okay. Let me explain something here.

58:43

When I first got there, the first year,

58:45

Joint Task Force was divided

58:48

to two version of the two sections.

58:49

Joint Task Force 170 and the Joint Task Force 160.

58:52

170 is in charge for all Intel, all the interrogations.

58:56

Translators who work for 170,

59:00

they only translate for the interrogators

59:03

and then Joint Task Force 160 is in charge for the camp.

59:05

They only translate for the guards,

59:11

military staff and the library.

59:13

Interviewer

Hmm

59:20

-

Daily lives and stuff.

59:22

But they don't know what's going on in Intel.

59:22

But there's only one Rushan for the Uyghurs.

59:25

So I was covering both.

59:28

I was translating for 160 and 170.

59:30

So, I got to deal with both side of it, not just Intel

59:33

but their daily lives and medical.

59:37

And they, yeah.

59:41

I go into cell blocks,

59:43

and I get to see where they live and everything.

59:44

So, and then I had friends

59:52

on the both sides and when they talk to other people

59:54

who's translating for the MPS,

59:56

they were really bothered the way that,

59:58

how the MPS were treating the detainees.

1:00:00

I guess people who was translating for Intel,

1:00:04

they know some of the people

1:00:06

who they are interrogators, also.

1:00:09

They know who Uyghurs are,

1:00:12

and they treat them differently, respectfully and nicely.

1:00:14

But when they are in cellblock, front of nineteen

1:00:17

twenty years old enlisted, the military guard there

1:00:21

who doesn't know who Uyghurs are.

1:00:27

For him, this is the person who was responsible for 9/11.

1:00:29

Maybe his friends or relatives being killed there.

1:00:33

So in his eye is, is the terrorist.

1:00:37

So there's all kinds of like,

1:00:42

like people are doing things to amuse themselves.

1:00:45

Just torture them.

1:00:48

When I say torture, not like physical torture

1:00:50

but like putting a loud music and the, you know

1:00:51

do or say things to irritate them

1:00:56

and just try to do something to provoke them,

1:00:59

to get them in trouble so they can punish.

1:01:01

And so that was really difficult to see all that happening,

1:01:05

because it seems like that there's this

1:01:07

really important mission,

1:01:10

but this young MPS are not really being supervised

1:01:13

by the chain of command to watch, what to follow,

1:01:19

what the rules are in the camp.

1:01:23

And me being on the both sections, it was really

1:01:27

difficult to deal with some of the issues like that.

1:01:33

And I was getting more and more frustrated with the mission.

1:01:37

And I kept saying, this is not the country I know.

1:01:41

this is not the loss and the rules that the,

1:01:45

that the military should act on, or based on, you know.

1:01:49

This is like abusing half the people's human rights.

1:01:53

And this is not what they expected from the military.

1:01:58

Interviewer

When you went back home the first time

1:02:03

after six or eight weeks, and you had some distance,

1:02:04

did that make a difference to you in terms

1:02:08

of how you could observe what you had experienced?

1:02:10

And then we went back,

1:02:14

did you have a different feeling to what it is?

1:02:15

-

I um, actually, it wass more difficult for me to be away

1:02:19

from the base because I was so worried from them.

1:02:22

Interviewer

For them?

1:02:27

-

Yeah. Because now they have absolutely

1:02:28

no language support.

1:02:31

If they get sick.

1:02:33

If something emergency happens or something,

1:02:34

they don't have anybody understand them.

1:02:38

So I would be going home, but then my mind

1:02:41

is like 24 hours back in the camp.

1:02:44

Because when I first came to the base,

1:02:48

seven weeks after I started to work,

1:02:51

first time I went home in like

1:02:54

two months or something like that;

1:02:56

seven weeks I was working straight seven days a week.

1:02:59

And I have no idea that we supposed to have

1:03:02

one day break for the translators.

1:03:04

And I, my allergies were really bothering me.

1:03:06

So I asked the OIC to have time to go to the doctor,

1:03:10

I need to go to the hospital.

1:03:14

And then he said "Do it in your admin day."

1:03:16

I said, "what's that?"

1:03:19

"Your day off."

1:03:21

"Do I supposed to get the day off?"

1:03:22

I thought, because I was going home

1:03:24

in eight weeks and the taking a week off,

1:03:25

I thought I had to work seven days

1:03:28

so I can accumulate my break time.

1:03:30

So I never questioned, you know, when it's my day off.

1:03:33

And then he said, well, the day that your interrogators,

1:03:37

your group does the paperwork, the admin day.

1:03:39

-

So what group do I belong to?

1:03:44

And then he looked at me like, you don't have a group.

1:03:47

I guess each interrogator are separated as different groups,

1:03:50

And they have their own translator for the other languages.

1:03:54

When they have like seven eight translators for one language

1:03:57

the day that they do admin after interrogating

1:04:01

for six days and five days, they have one day to write

1:04:04

the reports, they work six days a week,

1:04:07

and did they get that one day off.

1:04:09

Since I don't belong to any group,

1:04:12

I'm translating for everybody there.

1:04:14

I had no idea that that we supposed to get that day off.

1:04:16

And the plus, all the translators work for like five days

1:04:19

and then one admin day off.

1:04:23

And then one actual break day, the actual break days

1:04:25

for me to go and translate for the library

1:04:28

and the medical staff.

1:04:31

And so I was like working seven days a week straight.

1:04:34

And even was that, in the evenings and the, during, you know

1:04:38

like meal time, something will happen.

1:04:43

Somebody will get really sick.

1:04:45

Somebody will have a very high temperature,

1:04:46

or somebody will have some conflicts with guards

1:04:48

And they, they will look for me

1:04:52

and I will drop everything and come.

1:04:54

There are times like two o'clock in the morning,

1:04:56

I had to go back to the care.

1:04:58

Then I have eight o'clock in the morning have interrogation.

1:04:59

So for me, that was just like, like ordinary thing

1:05:02

for every day.

1:05:07

Because I know I'm the only one.

1:05:07

So when I left after eight weeks, I was constantly thinking

1:05:09

'what if somebody gets sick?'

1:05:14

(indistinct name) has malaria.

1:05:17

What if something happens to him

1:05:19

and he can communicate with medical staff?

1:05:21

And what if, you know, there is something

1:05:24

in the caMP and they need to communicate and I'm not there?

1:05:26

So when I come back to the camp,

1:05:30

I usually more relieved because at least I'm there.

1:05:35

I can help.

1:05:38

Interviewer

Were you also translating

1:05:40

for the Uzbeks at that time?

1:05:42

So how many people were you responsible for?

1:05:44

-

All the Uyghurs; twenty-two Uyghurs.

1:05:47

And then it's like seven

1:05:51

or eight or nine, something like that, Uzbeks.

1:05:53

And then there's another Uyghur from Kazakhstan.

1:05:56

He's not the part of twenty-two.

1:05:59

Then few Kazaks

1:06:02

and then three Turks,

1:06:08

so probably about up to forty or thirty something.

1:06:11

Interviewer

That you were pretty much

1:06:14

the only person responsible for them?

1:06:15

-

On both Intel and the camp.

1:06:17

Interviewer

And did it get better?

1:06:22

Did it, with time over -

1:06:24

how long exactly did you live in Guantanamo?

1:06:25

-

I lived in Guantanamo the first mission for nine months,

1:06:28

but then in October they brought another translator.

1:06:34

Uyghur translator, but he was not U.S.citizen.

1:06:38

So he, his security clearance was only good enough

1:06:42

to cover 160, which is the campsite.

1:06:45

He cannot translate it,

1:06:48

He cannot translate for the interrogators.

1:06:50

But at least that really relieved me from getting

1:06:53

up middle of the night, around one and rushing,

1:06:56

because he covered all the, the campsite.

1:06:59

Interviewer

And then how much long

1:07:05

after those nine months did you live in Guantanamo?

1:07:06

-

So I came to Guantanamo in the late April and the

1:07:10

I left in December, right before Christmas in 2002.

1:07:13

I resigned and went back to California.

1:07:18

Interviewer

Why?

1:07:22

-

Well, I realized that that, you know

1:07:24

they got what they want.

1:07:27

All the interrogators already made the decision

1:07:28

that the Uyghurs were innocent and the,

1:07:31

they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

1:07:35

There is no any Intel that they want

1:07:38

to get out of from them.

1:07:40

So interrogation and the interrogators keep switching

1:07:42

around again, new interrogator come in,

1:07:47

and they will come and ask same question

1:07:49

and do same thing just as a formality because they are new.

1:07:52

And these detainees are there for them to interrogate.

1:07:56

And then it's very frustrating

1:08:00

for the detainees because,

1:08:02

okay this is the eleventh times you asked me same question.

1:08:04

Either you believe me or you don't believe me,

1:08:07

do your investigation.

1:08:09

I told you what they want to tell you

1:08:10

and I'm not going to answer your questions.

1:08:11

And that, plus that will happen with Chinese delegation.

1:08:16

That really disappointed me what the U.S. did.

1:08:18

Interviewer

Can you tell us what happened

1:08:21

with the Chinese delegation?

1:08:22

-

Different countries start to sent their groups to meet

1:08:28

with their own citizens.

1:08:32

They will come in and they interview

1:08:34

their detainees and (mumbling).

1:08:37

And for me, it was just normal thing.

1:08:40

I wasn't surprised the Chinese delegation came

1:08:43

before that Uzbeks came from Uzbekistan.

1:08:46

Kazakhs came from Kazakhstan.

1:08:49

Yemenis governments sent people,

1:08:52

and Turkish government sents Turks.

1:08:54

So for me, it was just, okay

1:08:57

so Chinese are going to come and it's going to be the same.

1:08:59

One thing I know is absolutely no cameras allowed

1:09:04

inside of the camp.

1:09:09

And also inside of the interrogation cell.

1:09:11

And the none of the foreign government had access

1:09:16

to the DoD interrogation records.

1:09:21

And that's what all the interrogators promised Uyghurs

1:09:25

Every single time when interrogator come in

1:09:28

when they interrogate Uyghurs,

1:09:31

if they ask questions about them,

1:09:33

where they were

1:09:35

what they were doing,

1:09:36

how they came,

1:09:37

they don't hesitate answering all the questions.

1:09:37

But once the questions is about your family,

1:09:39

where your parents are, where you're born

1:09:43

and who do you have in your family or siblings, names, ages.

1:09:45

They get really hesitated to answer it because

1:09:49

they're afraid they're going to get their family in trouble

1:09:52

If Chinese government ever get access to it.

1:09:55

And then they, the interrogator will assure them

1:09:58

saying this is a country of law.

1:10:02

And our law prohibits any foreign government has access

1:10:06

to classified information.

1:10:10

And look at this word in your file.

1:10:12

It has classified which means this is

1:10:14

only the property of U.S. government.

1:10:16

We will never share any information

1:10:19

with China, Chinese, China is our enemy

1:10:21

and we will never give them your records.

1:10:24

Your family members are safe with telling us the truth

1:10:27

and you don't have to worry about anything.

1:10:34

Everybody assured them like that.

1:10:36

And then they feel comfortable telling them everybody.

1:10:38

Moms, dad, siblings, even aunts, uncles.

1:10:42

Whatever they ask the asset really sincerely.

1:10:46

And then when the Chinese government came, I was kept

1:10:50

on the other side of the base, actually where my quarters.

1:10:54

Because they didn't want the Chinese government

1:10:57

to see me being in the base.

1:10:59

Interviewer

Was is that because you were afraid

1:11:02

for yourself or they were afraid for you?

1:11:03

-

I think they were afraid for my family.

1:11:05

They asked me, who do you have in China?

1:11:07

My mom was still alive then, I said my parents

1:11:09

and my brother and sister

1:11:12

They said, all right, in that case

1:11:14

we don't want them to know that you are here.

1:11:15

So I didn't see them.

1:11:18

But then after they left,

1:11:22

and after the the Chinese government left the base

1:11:24

about ten days later, I mean, they stayed there

1:11:29

for about 10 days that I didn't see the Uyghurs.

1:11:31

I didn't see the Chinese delegation.

1:11:33

I just took a break for 10 days.

1:11:36

I stayed in my quarters.

1:11:37

Then when we came to see the Uyghurs,

1:11:40

you should see their face, they were like, like, you know

1:11:44

they have no spirit.

1:11:48

And their face were so sad and disappointed.

1:11:51

Then they're like, can't believe U.S. did this to us.

1:11:55

Chinese government got our records.

1:12:00

They know everything about us.

1:12:02

And they took our pictures.

1:12:05

That actually really, really shocked me because

1:12:08

how in the world, this one delegation had such a privilege

1:12:11

over all the other countries.

1:12:17

And why they were, you know given

1:12:21

Greenlight access to everything.

1:12:25

I complained, and they said they don't know.

1:12:28

It was, it came from Washington.

1:12:31

Pentagon told them to do that; Nobody knew

1:12:34

People were really actually,

1:12:38

the interrogators themselves really bothered by this.

1:12:40

They were sad.

1:12:43

They kept apologizing.

1:12:44

That I'm really sorry.

1:12:45

We didn't expect this will happen.

1:12:47

And even one night, gentlemen, I think he was

1:12:49

I don't know which agency it was from CIA or FBI.

1:12:52

He, yeah, he was FBI, actually.

1:12:56

Gray hair, elder gentlemen.

1:12:59

And he met with everyone Uyghur, each Uyghur

1:13:01

apologize to them on the behalf of our government.

1:13:07

He says, you know, I want to say

1:13:11

I'm really sorry being an American.

1:13:13

I want to apologize to you on behalf of my country.

1:13:15

I never thought that they will do this.

1:13:19

Interviewer

And so that, that impacted you

1:13:23

as to why you left or -

1:13:25

-

That did too.

1:13:27

Yeah. I, I lost respect as well.

1:13:28

I lost respect for the whole mission.

1:13:31

And then I thought, you know,

1:13:33

this is not what I signed up for.

1:13:35

This is not what they came from.

1:13:37

I wanted to serve my country, but not this.

1:13:38

Interviewer

One quick side note, you mentioned the CIA.

1:13:44

So was the CIA sometimes sending a civilian person also

1:13:46

at these interrogations?

1:13:50

So in you, did you have a contract with the government?

1:13:52

And it was up, or you could leave at any point?

1:13:56

-

My contract was for a year and the,

1:13:59

my term would happen up in April, 2003.

1:14:03

Interviewer

But, but, but by December, 2002,

1:14:08

you just said, you're done?

1:14:11

-

I went to chief of staff in,

1:14:13

I went home for November 1st for my daughter's birthday.

1:14:16

And when I was there, my divorce finalized.

1:14:20

Because I was in Guantanamo, my ex husband got custody

1:14:26

of all three kids and physical custody of all three kids.

1:14:29

We have joint custody, but I'm not there with them.

1:14:33

And that really hit me, actually

1:14:36

I was like, okay, what's happening here?

1:14:39

I'm in Guantanamo,

1:14:43

I thought I was serving this very important mission,

1:14:45

but that's not what I thought.

1:14:49

The the mission is becoming more

1:14:52

a disappointment then, you know, being so important.

1:14:54

And now I'm losing my children

1:14:58

because I'm in Guantanamo and I am really dedicated mother,

1:14:59

you know I quit my job repeatedly.

1:15:04

I quit my education for those kids.

1:15:06

I stayed at home, took care of kids when they were young.

1:15:08

And I'm not a drug user or I'm not alcoholic.

1:15:12

And I suppose to have the physical custody

1:15:19

of my children, you know, legally.

1:15:22

The only reason I couldn't because when Bob filed

1:15:24

for the physical custody of the kids, he says, you know

1:15:29

I know she's a great mom that dah, dah, dah

1:15:32

but she can't take the kids to go Guantanamo.

1:15:34

Her job is right now, it's in Guantanamo,

1:15:39

and therefore I want the custody of three kids.

1:15:41

And I couldn't say anything to that

1:15:44

because which is the truth andnd it really bothered me.

1:15:46

And then when they went back on the November 5th,

1:15:51

I think, I went to chief of staff.

1:15:54

I said, number one, everybody who came to this mission

1:15:56

and even your military active duty or reserve,

1:16:04

everybody are here for six months rotation.

1:16:07

And I have been here for a lot longer than that.

1:16:11

(knock on a door)

1:16:14

-

[Female Crew Member] Presented as translator other folks

1:16:19

in addition to the Uyghurs, would you be able to say

1:16:22

with confidence that those people are innocent?

1:16:26

-

No, I can't because I -

1:16:29

Interviewer

Yeah I don't think you that

1:16:30

-

[Female Crew Member] No, I didn't really, because -

1:16:31

Interviewer

You were saying that you were talking,

1:16:36

when you came back after November 5th -

1:16:40

-

Yeah. Then I went to chief of staff

1:16:42

and they said, you know, number one, all your interrogators

1:16:44

and your even military staff;

1:16:49

I mean, you're active duty soldiers,

1:16:51

everybody who deployed here,

1:16:55

they stay only six months rotation.

1:16:56

And I'm not the military,

1:16:58

and I stayed a lot longer than that.

1:17:00

Number two, I am not contracted with the military

1:17:02

and my contractor that I'm an employee

1:17:10

which means I can quit.

1:17:13

I can resign anytime I want.

1:17:15

And I can just give two weeks notation and quit my job

1:17:17

with my contractor.

1:17:20

But I'll be fair because I understand how difficult it is

1:17:22

for you to find the linguist.

1:17:26

So I'll give you six weeks, I am leaving for Christmas.

1:17:28

This is early November,

1:17:33

you have till end of December to replace me.

1:17:34

And I'm going home for Christmas.

1:17:38

And he was like, Oh yeah, I understand.

1:17:40

And the, if you want to go home, that's fine.

1:17:43

So we'll go then get to it.

1:17:45

You know, I tried to find somebody,

1:17:49

but then after like four weeks, he came to me and he said,

1:17:51

"No luck. Can you stay?"

1:17:54

"Nope, I'm going home for Christmas."

1:17:56

So I left, but they couldn't find anybody.

1:17:59

So I left the base with no replacement.

1:18:02

We had that one person who's not U.S. citizen.

1:18:05

And then he kept saying that, what are we going to do?

1:18:07

If you leave, we can't interrogate them and stuff.

1:18:11

And I said, well, you had that person,

1:18:14

you can make him U.S. citizen if you want.

1:18:15

And you know, have him translate.

1:18:18

And so I left and then three months later,

1:18:21

they contacted me.

1:18:24

This was in March of '03

1:18:26

And that asked me, do you remember when you left the base?

1:18:30

I said, yeah, I left 20th of December.

1:18:33

Well, how many days do you know since (mumbling)?

1:18:38

Yeah, it's almost three months.

1:18:41

"Nobody had talked to them.

1:18:42

Your guys are sitting in cell blocks for past three months.

1:18:44

No one can interrogate them,

1:18:47

because we don't have language support.

1:18:49

Can you come back?"

1:18:51

I just started the job like two months

1:18:54

ago with this company, and I loved my job

1:18:56

and I was still under this three month probation periods.

1:18:59

I said, "No, thanks."

1:19:02

I don't want to lose my job in Fresno.

1:19:04

It's not easy for me to find this kind of job

1:19:05

if I leave now, because they said for a very short time.

1:19:08

It's for six weeks or two months maximum?

1:19:11

I said, "that's really nice.

1:19:16

But if I come back after two months

1:19:17

I'm not going to have my job."

1:19:19

And then they asked me who I work for and what I'm doing.

1:19:22

And just asked me, just like chatting

1:19:26

about my current position.

1:19:28

And then that was in the morning

1:19:33

about four o'clock in the afternoon.

1:19:35

My VP called me to his office and said,

1:19:38

"Wow, I didn't realize that

1:19:40

we have such a valuable person here."

1:19:42

And "I got call from this guy

1:19:44

and talking to me about this mission in Guantanamo

1:19:47

they need you to back there."

1:19:50

I said, all right, I don't want to lose this job.

1:19:52

I don't want to go.

1:19:56

He said, "no, you go and we'll keep your position open."

1:19:57

"We'll treat you as like military reserve.

1:20:00

And they got called for mission.

1:20:06

And when they come back, we still had their position.

1:20:07

So you go ahead, go."

1:20:09

So I went back for another two months.

1:20:11

Interviewer

And how was that?

1:20:13

Was that different?

1:20:14

-

Oh yeah.

1:20:15

This time everything was like,

1:20:17

they put me in the Naval lodge,

1:20:19

which is like a four-star hotel.

1:20:22

The only nice hotel, nice place.

1:20:24

Get me a car.

1:20:28

So I had my own car and they um,

1:20:30

the interrogation was nice because this is

1:20:33

for basically closing their files to, to release them.

1:20:39

And the detainees were so happy to see me

1:20:45

after three months, after I came back.

1:20:49

Interrogators were really excited for them.

1:20:52

And every interrogation they will ask,

1:20:54

"So what do you want to do when you release"?

1:20:56

You know, "what kind of job can you do?"

1:20:59

And "do you have any family who you want to join with you?"

1:21:01

"Where do you want to go?"

1:21:05

And it was just all happy, you know, meetings.

1:21:07

Happy interrogation.

1:21:10

And then when they left and the end of the assignment,

1:21:13

I told them "next time when I see you,

1:21:16

it will be in a free world."

1:21:19

You know, you'll be free in third country somewhere.

1:21:21

Interviewer

Is that true?

1:21:28

-

Three years later, I went back to Guantanamo.

1:21:31

They were still in cell blocks.

1:21:34

Interviewer

And before we go to that,

1:21:37

I just want to back up.

1:21:39

And you said that the men were hesitant,

1:21:40

they didn't want the Chinese to know about their background

1:21:43

because they, their families could be harassed.

1:21:46

And then they hid you out because they didn't want

1:21:48

the Chinese to know you were there ,to be harassed.

1:21:51

What is your family or harassed?

1:21:55

-

Not directly, but indirectly, yes.

1:21:58

My family has suffered.

1:22:02

And my parents both have U.S. Green cards.

1:22:05

With Chinese law, basically they should have their access

1:22:10

for their passport so they can leave the country

1:22:16

and leave to United States whenever they want.

1:22:18

But for no reason, my parents' passports

1:22:21

were taken away from them.

1:22:24

My mom passed away in 2004,

1:22:26

but my father still don't have his passport.

1:22:28

Interviewer

When were they, when was it taken away?

1:22:31

-

Um, 2003; at the end of 2003.

1:22:34

Interviewer

And so they knew you were

1:22:41

working in the, do you think?

1:22:43

So you said three years later, nothing has changed.

1:22:45

They were still there.

1:22:51

Where were you for those three years?

1:22:51

-

Actually, let me go back a little bit

1:22:56

on that and add something to it.

1:22:57

I was in California working

1:23:00

for the same company, continue my job there.

1:23:02

And then I filed for rearranging the custody

1:23:06

and have my daughter comne and live with me.

1:23:09

I wanted all three back, but then my ex husband explained

1:23:12

that for my special needs child

1:23:16

it's better for him to take care of the boys.

1:23:18

So I was taking care of my daughter and working

1:23:22

in the same town that my ex husband and my boys live.

1:23:25

And then, I was following very closely

1:23:31

with Guantanamo Uyghurs, and I was hoping to

1:23:34

see the news about them being released soon.

1:23:42

And then unfortunately at the end of 2004

1:23:45

there was a CSRT to combat

1:23:51

Interviewer

Status?

1:23:55

-

Status review tribunal.

1:23:56

And then the result of that

1:23:58

was five Uyghurs cleared to be innocent,

1:23:59

non enemy combatants

1:24:05

Seventeen of them labeled as enemy combatants.

1:24:06

And when I saw the names,

1:24:11

the attorneys who are working with them

1:24:13

going back to Guantanamo and that,

1:24:15

they released the court files

1:24:19

and when they filed for it DC circuit court.

1:24:22

When I saw the names, I was, I couldn't believe

1:24:27

what's the measurement there for them

1:24:30

to come up that kind of resolved;

1:24:36

because the five that found non enemy combatants

1:24:38

were a group of 18 together.

1:24:43

They travel together from Afghanistan.

1:24:46

And they were up on the Tora Bora Mountains together

1:24:49

when their refugee lodging place

1:24:52

got blown up during bombing,

1:24:55

and then they walked together to Pakistan,

1:24:58

they are arrested together,

1:25:01

turn over to U.S. by the bounty hunters together.

1:25:03

This is group of 18.

1:25:07

Now we have five non-enemy combatants,

1:25:09

13 enemy combatants?

1:25:12

Okay. So if there are white, all of them should be white.

1:25:14

If they are black, all of them should be black.

1:25:17

So I just tried to understand this.

1:25:19

How they became separated to two categories.

1:25:22

And then in early 2006,

1:25:28

five of them got released to Albania.

1:25:33

As my promise to them, I said,

1:25:36

"I will be visiting you wherever you go

1:25:38

after you become free."

1:25:40

So I went to Albania, visit them.

1:25:42

And so they told me what happened to them

1:25:45

after I left after 2003, and it was really nice reunion.

1:25:48

And then the, the attorneys contacted me.

1:25:53

Apparently when, when they went back

1:25:58

to see the detainees in Guantanamo - excuse me.

1:26:03

They brought the American linguist that,

1:26:08

who learned Uyghur as translator,

1:26:13

because that was the only translator they could find.

1:26:17

And they, he's a really nice person

1:26:21

but since it's not his native language

1:26:23

and that the guys couldn't understand him,

1:26:25

and it just wasn't the same.

1:26:28

So they asked the attorneys to find Rushan,

1:26:33

find our translator.

1:26:37

And when Saban asked "who's this Rushan?"

1:26:39

they said that she was our translator

1:26:42

when we first came here.

1:26:43

Then when he realized that she was the translator

1:26:45

for the captors, for the interrogators.

1:26:47

And he was surprised.

1:26:51

And he was like, Oh, okay, I never heard of this.

1:26:53

You know, you want your translator that was here

1:26:57

when you first brought here>

1:27:00

And they said, "yeah, we trust her, bring her."

1:27:02

So Saban contacted me and said

1:27:05

that if I can translate for them,

1:27:07

And go to Guantanamo with attornies.

1:27:10

Interviewer

Could you tell us what

1:27:12

Saban's first name is?

1:27:14

-

Saban Willard.

1:27:15

Interviewer

Saban Willard. And when did he contact you?

1:27:17

-

That was just shortly after the men arrived in Albania,

1:27:20

which was the summer of 2006.

1:27:24

Interviewer

And did you then quit your job to do this?

1:27:27

-

No, I kept my job full time.

1:27:29

I did this just on the side.

1:27:32

I will take vacation time off from work,

1:27:35

or able to take like unpaid leave of absence.

1:27:38

And then I will go with the attorneys

1:27:41

because the trips with the attorneys were really short.

1:27:43

It's only like three or four times,

1:27:47

of three or four days each time.

1:27:48

And then every couple of months.

1:27:50

Interviewer

And Guantanamo change to you,

1:27:52

after three years when you went back?

1:27:53

-

Not much, actually more buildings were built.

1:27:58

It was brand new camps, camp five camp six one way.

1:28:04

Interviewer

How did the men appear to you coming back

1:28:09

three years later?

1:28:12

-

They were not the same people

1:28:19

that they saw three years ago.

1:28:22

You don't see that the happy face,

1:28:25

like they were they were so happy to be in U.S. custody.

1:28:28

They were so excited .

1:28:32

And they had so much trust and respect

1:28:35

to the Americans and the American system and the country.

1:28:37

If you ask one questions, they will tell you ten to just,

1:28:43

like some of the questions were like related

1:28:46

to the Chinese system and the military and different things.

1:28:50

And they just want to help U.S. to,

1:28:54

you know get any information.

1:28:58

I realize that they're not that talkative anymore.

1:29:01

They're not that excited about anything.

1:29:05

And they, before they were so trusting, you know,

1:29:09

when somebody talks to them,

1:29:15

somebody introduced them that 'I will be your interrogator.

1:29:16

I will try to help you get you out of here.'

1:29:19

And you can see that, okay, so this person will help me

1:29:23

and they clear me or, you know, understand me.

1:29:28

But now attorneys are trying to say the same thing.

1:29:34

I am your attorney.

1:29:37

It's like, okay; Yeah, Right.

1:29:38

You're another American.

1:29:40

We had been lied to so many times though.

1:29:41

What kind of lies you'll have for us now?

1:29:43

And he has some of them even,

1:29:46

when Saban started to open his mouth

1:29:48

and tried to introduce himself,

1:29:50

just shut him off, like stop talking.

1:29:52

I didn't come here at the to to you.

1:29:54

I came here to see Rushan.

1:29:55

I just want to see my translator,

1:29:58

and they just say hi to her.

1:30:00

So they were like, they were changed.

1:30:04

More like I wouldn't saying rude,

1:30:09

but sort of like in our culture

1:30:13

people are really kind, and they're really respectful.

1:30:16

You don't shut somebody up when you are talking,

1:30:20

or you don't interrupt them.

1:30:24

But they had no problem doing that to attorneys.

1:30:26

So the system changed them.

1:30:30

Interviewer

How did you feel about watching them?

1:30:33

Observing them?

1:30:35

-

I was, I felt sad cause you know.

1:30:37

And I was disappointed in our system as well.

1:30:41

Because I know that U.S. government

1:30:43

tried really hard to find them countries to resettle them

1:30:47

after they made the decision, they are not going to

1:30:51

send them back to China.

1:30:53

And the, the main problem they had was the Chinese

1:30:55

government, and the countries

1:30:59

were not willing to accept them.

1:31:02

But at the same time, U.S. could have done a better job

1:31:04

to separate them from general public.

1:31:10

Since they know from day one, that they were not there

1:31:12

for the other reasons that some other people,

1:31:17

they thought that they were there for.

1:31:20

So they could have, you know, treat them a little bit better

1:31:22

when they left in 2003, all of them were in camp four.

1:31:27

Which is more like a medium security facility,

1:31:34

like a community community living with 10 people

1:31:36

in one cell block.

1:31:40

And when I came back after three years, they were all over.

1:31:42

Some of them were in punishment block Romeo.

1:31:46

And some of them were like in individual cells again.

1:31:48

And so I, I wish things were different.

1:31:58

Interviewer

So would you say it was worse

1:32:03

when they came back in,

1:32:05

and you didn't understand why all of a sudden

1:32:06

their treatment was worse,

1:32:09

it seemed like, then when you left?

1:32:10

-

Don't understand.

1:32:13

Interviewer

Do you know why the five people were ,

1:32:15

the first to be released?

1:32:17

Do you know how -

1:32:19

-

Because they were a non-enemy combatant.

1:32:20

I still don't understand why they were not enemy combatants.

1:32:21

Rest of them are enemy combatants.

1:32:25

Interviewer

I had heard a story that you

1:32:29

used to bring food with you when you went with the lawyers.

1:32:31

Can you tell us that story?

1:32:34

-

Yeah. Even when I was leaving in Guantanamo,

1:32:36

the first- in 2003, the interrogators to allow me to cook

1:32:40

for them and bring food to the interrogation.

1:32:44

And they, that's the only time

1:32:49

they get to taste the Uyghur food.

1:32:50

So when I came back after three years

1:32:53

and I started to cook different meals,

1:32:56

and then bring it over to them, enjoy that.

1:33:00

Interviewer

Can you describe

1:33:04

one of those meals that you cooked for them?

1:33:05

-

The very popular Uyghur dish that mostly men love,

1:33:08

is handmade noodles call that Laghman.

1:33:12

And it's sort of like making spaghetti from the scratch.

1:33:17

It's really nice.

1:33:21

And I used to joke is to say Marco Polo went to Kashgar,

1:33:23

our region when he took his trip to Silk Road.

1:33:28

And that's where he learned how to make spaghetti,

1:33:33

and took it to Italy.

1:33:36

And this is the real noodles

1:33:37

And all of them love that.

1:33:39

So I made that one time when we arrived to the base usually,

1:33:43

we have no access to groceries.

1:33:48

The mini Mart is usually closed.

1:33:50

So there is no any kind of food.

1:33:53

We don't even get to eat much that day.

1:33:56

There's only one place called clipper club

1:33:59

and they have really greasy pizza.

1:34:02

And if you're really hungry, just eat that.

1:34:03

Otherwise just have some fruit and go to bed.

1:34:06

But at this time when I came,

1:34:09

I promised them previously that I was going to make Laghman

1:34:12

for them next time when I come.

1:34:15

So I brought up all the ingredients.

1:34:17

I got the some lamb and the vegetables and the vegetable oil

1:34:19

and flour and everything I need for making this dish.

1:34:26

And I stayed up till midnight to make that,

1:34:32

and bring it there next day when we met with them.

1:34:34

And usually use a chopstick to eat that,

1:34:38

we don't use chopsticks for a Uyghur meals

1:34:41

usually spoon or fork, but for this noodle dish

1:34:44

people use chopsticks and they, I forgot to chopsticks.

1:34:47

So the attorney handover two pens

1:34:53

and use this two pens as chopsticks, and he ate that.

1:34:56

And then he said, this was the best Laghman he ever had.

1:35:01

Interviewer

So then you would cook for all the Uyghurs?

1:35:07

And the government led you bring all that food with you?

1:35:10

-

Yeah.

1:35:13

Interviewer

So when the men were released,

1:35:16

were you around from 2006 until when the men were released

1:35:22

to other countries like to Bermuda in Palau?

1:35:29

Were you involved in, in those releases?

1:35:31

-

Yeah.

1:35:34

Interviewer

Could you describe, were you involved in

1:35:36

negotiations?

1:35:38

Could you described exactly?

1:35:39

-

Bermuda, It happened in June last year.

1:35:40

Before that the U.S. decided to take some

1:35:47

of the Uyghurs to the United States.

1:35:52

And they, I don't know if I could disclose this though.

1:35:55

Scratch that.

1:36:00

Okay, Bermuda,

1:36:04

that one day the attorneys

1:36:07

arranged phone call was 4 detainees, all 4 together.

1:36:08

And then I was translating for the call.

1:36:12

I was in California, Saban Willard was in Boston,

1:36:15

and then we called Guantanamo

1:36:19

and I knew something was going on, but did not exactly.

1:36:21

Saban's usually pretty good keeping secrets.

1:36:26

And the, so he told them

1:36:30

that there is a country is willing to accept them

1:36:33

and the move will happen pretty quickly.

1:36:35

And then he started telling them about Bermuda.

1:36:39

I was so excited for them, actually.

1:36:43

And they were quiet, just listen.

1:36:46

And after Saban finished telling them everything,

1:36:49

is just asked a few questions about the citizenship.

1:36:53

If when they go to Bermuda,

1:37:00

they can become a Bermudian citizen

1:37:02

Because they really concerned about that,

1:37:04

because they don't want to be a Chinese citizen

1:37:06

or stateless so China can claim over them

1:37:09

and take them back in the future.

1:37:11

So Saban says, yes, they will issue their passport.

1:37:14

And then Saban said, "I want you to think about this.

1:37:16

I call you back in two days."

1:37:22

I think this was Friday afternoon,

1:37:24

When we called and Saban says,

1:37:26

"I will arrange a phone call Sunday, get your answer.

1:37:29

If you would accept this offer or not.

1:37:33

I will notify the government on Monday."

1:37:35

And since he finished talking, one of them

1:37:39

(indistinct name) said Saban,

1:37:42

"you'll have my decision now.

1:37:45

I'm going, and I'm speaking for myself and I will go."

1:37:47

And then every one of them took the phone one by one

1:37:53

and "I am (indistinct name) and I'm going, I'm going."

1:37:56

and "I am (indistinct name) and I'm going."

1:37:59

And then "I am (indistinct name) And I'm going."

1:38:01

I was so exciting moment, you know,

1:38:05

finally after so many years.

1:38:08

So we didn't have to call them back on Sunday.

1:38:10

They made the decision right there.

1:38:12

And then do you want me to just

1:38:16

keep going about the move or?

1:38:18

Interviewer

Sure. And if you know why

1:38:21

the government chose those four?

1:38:22

-

That related to the classified part

1:38:25

that I shouldn't be talking about

1:38:27

Interviewer

Okay.

1:38:30

-

All four of them were (indistinct name) clients,

1:38:31

Saban Willard's clients.

1:38:36

So Saban went to Bermuda.

1:38:39

We didn't know which exact move is going to be,

1:38:40

but he told me

1:38:45

"be ready and stand standby position in a moment notice.

1:38:46

And I will let you know.

1:38:52

you will be on the plane on your way to Bermuda."

1:38:54

And he was already in Bermuda and I was like,

1:38:58

all packed them ready to go.

1:39:00

And he calls me one day and says, you know,

1:39:02

you'll be on the plane tomorrow morning.

1:39:05

So I got the Bermuda,

1:39:07

and we still don't know which exact date

1:39:09

or time the move is going to be.

1:39:11

I got there about four o'clock in the afternoon and they,

1:39:14

I thought they supposed to have a nice time

1:39:19

and have dinner in the evening, have a drink.

1:39:22

And then the move is going to be next day.

1:39:25

And then Saban calls me up, he said,

1:39:31

"all right then, don't sleep tonight.

1:39:33

We're we probably will be heading

1:39:35

to the airport about 10 o'clock at night."

1:39:38

So we did actually, we were at the airport.

1:39:41

The plane took off about 12, midnight.

1:39:44

Landed in Guantanamo about three o'clock in the morning,

1:39:48

and the bus was there and it was so exciting.

1:39:53

I ran up to the bus and these four guys are

1:40:00

sitting and just smiling and said "hi" to them,

1:40:04

and explain to them what's happening there.

1:40:09

And then they came out of the bus one by one,

1:40:12

got on the plane, and then we brought them

1:40:15

back to Bermuda by six o'clock in the morning.

1:40:17

Interviewer

Can you tell a bit about the story

1:40:22

and what happened when they got to Bermuda.

1:40:23

Politics there?

1:40:25

-

Yeah.

1:40:27

Apparently was this something happened

1:40:30

among the politicians in in United States previously,

1:40:34

and all the congressmen how they didn't

1:40:42

want any Guantanamo detainees coming into Guantanamo.

1:40:43

There were some talks and in the media report,

1:40:48

the unclassified information some Uyghurs

1:40:51

supposed to brought to the United States

1:40:54

and then U.S. Congress quickly passed the law that none

1:40:56

of the detainees from Guantanamo would be brought to U.S.

1:41:02

And so Premier Brown,

1:41:07

when he made the decision of accepting the Uyghurs

1:41:09

he was afraid if he consults his cabinet

1:41:13

then there will be some argument,

1:41:15

and they may even vote that down.

1:41:20

So he decided to keep it secret from everybody

1:41:22

in the cabinet, except the one Labor Minister.

1:41:26

He's the only one who knew what was happening

1:41:28

and the Premiere.

1:41:31

So, no one in Bermuda knew this was happening

1:41:33

And Great Britain, The Governor from great Britain

1:41:37

did not know anything.

1:41:40

So we landed early in the morning.

1:41:43

And then the Premier did a press release hour later,

1:41:46

and the people that we have four Uyghurs joined us

1:41:49

in Bermuda from Guantanamo.

1:41:53

people went just absolutely ballistic.

1:41:56

They were like, this is the dictatorship.

1:42:00

And we didn't know anything about this.

1:42:04

And the cabinet didn't know,

1:42:06

the Ministers didn't vote for this.

1:42:07

And then they started to have all kinds

1:42:11

of demonstrations and their rallies.

1:42:14

And actually they introduced a vote, no confidence vote

1:42:17

in the Premier to bring down the government.

1:42:20

And so we have been told that we need to do some lobbying,

1:42:24

to go out, talk to people and let Bermudan people

1:42:30

know who Uyghurs are, who these people are.

1:42:34

So we spent every day on the street,

1:42:37

walking on the street and where all the tourists are

1:42:41

or shops and go to different places.

1:42:43

Just talk to people, answer the questions.

1:42:47

At the beginning when this was all happening,

1:42:51

people had demonstrations saying

1:42:56

that Premier leave or, you know, like a step down

1:42:59

or resign or get rid of the Premier with four Uyghurs.

1:43:03

They don't belong here.

1:43:07

Those terrorists, they don't belong to Bermuda.

1:43:09

Tell them to go wherever they come from,

1:43:11

tell them to go to the U.S., all kinds of things like that.

1:43:14

Very negative.

1:43:18

And then after few days of lobbying,

1:43:20

meeting with people, going talking to media

1:43:24

and we had an hour television life show

1:43:28

answering their questions.

1:43:31

The next day when they had the big rally,

1:43:34

was like 10,000 people in front of the government.

1:43:37

The signs changed to 'Premier go, Uyghurs stay.'

1:43:41

Because they start to see the Uyghurs.

1:43:47

And then I started to talk to everybody, explaining to them.

1:43:49

Now, you know these people and we are really grateful

1:43:56

You open up your door and accept them.

1:44:00

But without you knowing them, if the Premier had talked

1:44:02

to his Ministers, do you think they will allow them to come?

1:44:08

It wouldn't happen.

1:44:11

So the Premier made this decision.

1:44:12

So, at least you have chance to see these men.

1:44:15

To give them an opportunity, give them the chance

1:44:19

to show you who they are.

1:44:23

And so we just continued doing our work

1:44:25

To let people know who we are, who Uyghurs are,

1:44:29

who this these four men.

1:44:32

I supposed to be there only for five days, actually.

1:44:34

But then, then they realized -

1:44:38

also the four me there, they were so scared for themselves

1:44:41

because they didn't know what was going to happen.

1:44:44

If the world goes on the, the negative way, if they get rid

1:44:46

of the Premier, his decision would get overturned.

1:44:52

And they may send back somewhere who knows where.

1:44:54

Maybe Guantanamo, or what will happen to them.

1:44:57

So they were scared.

1:45:01

They didn't want me to leave.

1:45:02

And also the government Premiere in Bermuda.

1:45:04

He wanted me to extend my stay until the vote passes or not.

1:45:08

Until a certain point the government become more stable.

1:45:13

So I extended for another two more weeks.

1:45:17

I stayed there all together for like over three weeks.

1:45:19

And meanwhile, when all this happening,

1:45:23

about the week after they arrive in Bermuda,

1:45:26

Palauan government announced that

1:45:30

they were going to accept the rest of the Uyghurs.

1:45:33

And the rest of the Uyghurs but one, actually.

1:45:35

And the Palau was sending a delegation to Guantanamo

1:45:40

to meet with the rest of the Uyghurs.

1:45:44

And Then all that Uyghurs in Guantanamo,

1:45:47

they asked me to come with the government.

1:45:49

They want me to be there.

1:45:52

And the attorneys are calling me,

1:45:54

some of the attorneys,

1:45:55

saying that we need you in Guantanamo.

1:45:56

And then the guys in Bermuda says,

1:45:59

"no you can't leave us here."

1:46:00

So I was like, torn between staying in Bermuda

1:46:02

try to help the government and the four guys there,

1:46:05

And then this is also important

1:46:08

for the rest of the guys in Guantanamo.

1:46:10

So I didn't know what to do at that point.

1:46:13

Then finally decide to stay in Bermuda

1:46:17

because these four guys in Bermuda that was telling me

1:46:19

"If you go, you just explain to them what Palau is,

1:46:22

And they will think about it and make their decisions.

1:46:25

But we need you here.

1:46:27

This is our future, or they could send us back."

1:46:28

So I decided to stay in Bermuda.

1:46:31

And then they, they, Palauan government,

1:46:34

they just use the government translator there at the base.

1:46:37

It wasn't me.

1:46:40

Then when I went back a month later with the attorneys,

1:46:41

the guys in Guantanamo were upset with me.

1:46:45

Sort of disappointed that I didn't come.

1:46:49

And they, also that the translator told them everything

1:46:52

about what Palauan and governments that they want me to go

1:46:56

through everything all over again

1:46:58

because they don't trust anybody but me.

1:47:00

So that was interesting.

1:47:04

Interviewer

What is the result in Bermuda?

1:47:06

-

It was, they had the vote.

1:47:09

Well, it, the cabinet met from four o'clock in the afternoon

1:47:12

and they had discussion and the session went

1:47:18

on until 6:00 AM next day, without sleeping

1:47:22

without taking break. Then six o'clock in the morning

1:47:26

it went over in favor for the Premier.

1:47:31

So he's still the Premier.

1:47:33

Interviewer

And could you tell us a little bit

1:47:38

about then when you spoke to the men in Palau?

1:47:39

Not all of them chose to go to Palau and how that was?

1:47:43

-

Hmm. They, number one, Palau, being an Island,

1:47:50

such a remote Island in the middle of nowhere

1:47:56

After being in incarceration for almost eight years.

1:48:01

And they, they do feel that it was really unfair

1:48:06

for them to be in the jail like that

1:48:12

for so many years after they cleared innocent

1:48:15

They think that they should be able

1:48:19

to go someplace that's more stable,

1:48:22

and that they want to just go settle in one place instead

1:48:25

of go there for temporarily and move somewhere else.

1:48:29

And the Palau is a temporary solution because

1:48:32

of the climate and that there is no Uyghur community here

1:48:36

and it's such a small place.

1:48:41

And they didn't want to stay here

1:48:44

for the rest of their lives.

1:48:46

So the rest of the seven, actually five,

1:48:48

who didn't want to come to Palau is the reasons

1:48:54

they want to go to a country that's not an Island.

1:48:57

Two of them, they are brothers.

1:49:06

The one didn't get an offer

1:49:08

because of some health issues he has

1:49:10

and his brother wanted to stay with him.

1:49:14

He didn't want to leave him behind.

1:49:15

The other five refused Palau because it is an Island.

1:49:17

Xinjiang, the man called it (indistinct)

1:49:22

is the most landlock region in the world.

1:49:28

The city I was born and raised from

1:49:31

is that the most inland city in the world.

1:49:33

Away from any kind of body of water, like sea or ocean.

1:49:35

So people from our region, we are not really used

1:49:39

to the the tropical climate or water and the Island.

1:49:46

Actually, interesting They joke seven, eight years in,

1:49:52

in Guantanamo Bay hearing the ocean, the sea.

1:49:59

Seeing from the distance,

1:50:06

they have never been into the water and they ended

1:50:07

up in Island, in Bermuda and Palau.

1:50:11

So the other seven, they decide to stay in Guantanamo.

1:50:14

Interviewer

And how, I guess I'll talk

1:50:22

a little about you and then maybe

1:50:27

we'll talk a bit more about the men.

1:50:28

But how has these last eight years affected your life?

1:50:30

Have you seen your life change over these eight years?

1:50:33

-

Yeah. I used to have only three children.

1:50:39

Now I have twenty-two more.

1:50:42

So they feel that I am a mother figure.

1:50:45

I call them my children.

1:50:48

So I felt that I have responsibilities

1:50:51

over twenty-two more people than just my three kids.

1:50:55

And then again, you know, me to myself.

1:51:00

Like the men always say that they had so much faith

1:51:07

and trust in United States government,

1:51:11

but turned out to be that was not what they expected.

1:51:14

And they were disappointed.

1:51:17

I was too.

1:51:18

I was disappointed in a legal system in U.S.

1:51:20

And the the constitution we have in this great country,

1:51:23

how our forefathers built this country based on values.

1:51:30

What happened in Guantanamo was not

1:51:36

what I understood of the constitution.

1:51:38

I often think that what if you know, forefathers, they see

1:51:42

they know what's happening today in Guantanamo

1:51:49

how they feel about this.

1:51:52

But, and they always have my faith

1:51:55

and trust in government that they are going to

1:51:58

correct this mistake and do the right thing.

1:52:01

Especially when president Obama came

1:52:03

to the office almost like next day

1:52:06

he announced that he was going to shut

1:52:09

down Guantanamo within one year.

1:52:12

And I was so excited, I had tears in my eyes.

1:52:14

Finally, finally, it's going to be corrected.

1:52:17

You know, everybody makes mistakes

1:52:21

but the most important thing is who's

1:52:24

willing to correct that mistake.

1:52:26

But now we are approaching that deadline

1:52:29

in a couple of weeks and it's not going to happen.

1:52:33

So those are the kinds of things disappoints me and I,

1:52:36

I guess my 20 years in the United States,

1:52:40

I always want to see the great side of the United States.

1:52:46

But then last eight years, what I have endured;

1:52:53

what I have experienced in Guantanamo,

1:52:56

it was not the side that I want

1:52:59

to see out of my country here.

1:53:00

Interviewer

Did it change your life?

1:53:05

-

I got the divorced while I was working in Guantanamo.

1:53:09

Did it change my life?

1:53:17

Yeah.

1:53:18

I realized that the many things that we take

1:53:20

for granted that we shouldn't.

1:53:22

People need to do their responsibility

1:53:25

to protect what they believe, what they value.

1:53:28

Things could change in overnight,

1:53:33

changed somebody's life and a future.

1:53:34

Like these people.

1:53:37

One day they were just surviving

1:53:40

as any ordinary person,

1:53:44

just fighting for their future to have better life.

1:53:46

Like what you and I have.

1:53:49

The next day, they were in Guantanamo

1:53:52

labeled one of the worst of the worst.

1:53:55

And then one day they have been told that they're innocent,

1:53:58

and they will be going someplace safe

1:54:01

for them and live normal life.

1:54:04

Then next day they are enemy combatants

1:54:06

of the United States.

1:54:08

Yeah, things are not what this seems to be.

1:54:13

Interviewer

How do your children see their mother?

1:54:18

Watching their mother do over these past eight years?

1:54:21

-

I guess all three of them, you know,

1:54:28

including my little one, the one who just turned 13.

1:54:29

They know so much more about Guantanamo

1:54:33

than probably some of the adults in the United States.

1:54:36

It was very educational for them,

1:54:42

that they keep track of the news.

1:54:44

What's going on in Guantanamo.

1:54:47

When they hear something

1:54:48

about Guantanamo, they go, mom, mom

1:54:49

there's something about Guantanamo on that TV.

1:54:51

And also, you know sometimes

1:54:54

they ask some difficult questions.

1:54:58

Like why are we doing this to these people?

1:55:00

Why our government is holding

1:55:03

the innocent boy who's Guantanamo?

1:55:05

And they tried to explain to them,

1:55:07

I don't want to put like negative feelings

1:55:09

in their heart about our governments.

1:55:11

I tried to tell them that it's just a difficult situation

1:55:13

and U.S. is doing their best to deal with it.

1:55:17

So it impact their lives as well.

1:55:22

Interviewer

Looking back to the 2002,

1:55:27

when you were first got that phone call

1:55:31

from the Titan corporation.

1:55:33

Are you glad you said yes?

1:55:35

-

Yes, of course.

1:55:38

I'm glad they said yes.

1:55:39

I had lifetime experience

1:55:43

and got to know so many different things that I had no idea.

1:55:45

And I helped both the U.S. government to get

1:55:51

to the bottom of these people, who they are

1:55:56

till the point that I helped twenty-two people

1:56:00

with their times in incarceration, in Guantanamo.

1:56:03

Interviewer

Did you and the Uyghurs

1:56:10

help the image of the Uyghurs?

1:56:12

A lot of us didn't know

1:56:15

about the Uyghurs before they were captured really.

1:56:17

-

Every time when I go to Guantanamo,

1:56:22

when I face these men

1:56:23

And then when they are so disappointed about being in jail

1:56:25

and their life is passing by so many years, passing by all

1:56:29

of this, tell them, but it's not passing by for nothing.

1:56:33

You are doing a great contribution

1:56:37

to the world to know who Uyghurs are.

1:56:40

Because eight years ago, nobody ever even heard of Uyghurs.

1:56:44

Because communist government like China,

1:56:49

they suppress the region so harshly.

1:56:52

And that's one way of keeping the Uyghur there,

1:56:58

and the not let the world know what's going on there.

1:57:01

So the world population

1:57:05

and the people in United States, people in Europe,

1:57:07

they didn't know anything about Uyghurs,

1:57:11

but because of these twenty-two men in Guantanamo,

1:57:13

it became such a public.

1:57:16

Right now, if you sit on the plan

1:57:18

and the person sitting next to you

1:57:23

asks you where you're from,.

1:57:25

When I say I'm Uyghur, they'll know, "Oh yeah, Uyghur."

1:57:27

8 years ago, 10 years ago, when I say Uyghur,

1:57:30

they look at me strangely.

1:57:34

What's that?

1:57:35

So now it's like because of the twenty-two years,

1:57:38

twenty-two men's life in the Guantanamo;

1:57:43

the world population got to know who the Uyghur people are.

1:57:46

So it's actually really positive contribution.

1:57:51

Interviewer

Where do you see your life going once,

1:57:57

if Guantanamo ever closes?

1:58:01

-

I'll be doing doing my job

1:58:05

and being mom to my three children,

1:58:07

and also those twenty-two men.

1:58:09

I guess I still stay closely with every one of them.

1:58:11

I have been to Albania three or four times since 2006.

1:58:14

And the, I am in like a weekly communication with them.

1:58:19

They call me up all the time.

1:58:24

And so I probably will continue just to helping them

1:58:27

with whatever they need and then live my life.

1:58:33

Interviewer

I heard you became a grandmother recently.

1:58:37

-

Yes.

1:58:40

We have our first Guantanamo baby

1:58:41

was born in Albania last month, a baby girl.

1:58:44

One of the men got married

1:58:49

and they have a first baby

1:58:51

When they went to Guantanamo last month, three weeks ago

1:58:55

when I delivered this news

1:58:59

to the men in Guantanamo, they were so happy.

1:59:01

And I told them that, guess what?

1:59:06

You are not twenty-two Uyghurs from Guantanamo anymore.

1:59:08

There is twenty-third one.

1:59:11

They were really happy for that.

1:59:14

Interviewer

And do you think the men

1:59:16

will ultimately have a better life over the years?

1:59:17

Do you see any hope for the men over the years?

1:59:21

Once, you know, as time moves on?

1:59:25

-

You mean the ones being released?

1:59:28

Interviewer

Yeah.

1:59:30

-

Yeah. They're all trying really hard.

1:59:32

The ones in Albania, they are trying to get jobs.

1:59:35

Now they have work permits and the,

1:59:41

the ones in the Bermuda, they already working.

1:59:44

They're doing really good.

1:59:49

And the, the ones in Palau here, they are going to school.

1:59:51

I talked to their English teacher yesterday,

1:59:55

and she was telling me how great they are

1:59:58

and how they are trying so hard.

2:00:01

And at the beginning, they were afraid

2:00:07

of opening their mouth and actually speaking English.

2:00:10

Also, they understand they don't want to speak.

2:00:12

In just, in three weeks now,

2:00:15

every one of them start to speak.

2:00:16

And she said that at the beginning she felt

2:00:19

that being a female and these men have been in Guantanamo

2:00:25

for so many years, didn't know what to expect,

2:00:29

but she said that they are so respectful, respectful to her.

2:00:33

She's really pleased that she

2:00:37

had this opportunity to teach them.

2:00:39

And she was even asking me,

2:00:41

"do you think if there's any opportunity

2:00:43

that they would bring their families over from China?"

2:00:45

I said, "well I don't know."

2:00:50

She said, "I offered them.

2:00:52

If anyone comes from their families

2:00:55

they can stay and live in my house."

2:00:57

So..

2:01:00

Interviewer

Do you think their families

2:01:02

could ever come from China?

2:01:03

-

Well, looking at the four years in Albania,

2:01:06

they had been released four years ago.

2:01:10

Some of them has wives and children,

2:01:13

and we're not be able to get them out

2:01:16

because Chinese government is not issuing passports.

2:01:17

It's hard to tell if that will happen or not.

2:01:22

Interviewer

Well, do you, I guess Rushan,

2:01:34

do you have any final thoughts, observations about

2:01:37

all that happened in the last eight years or the future,

2:01:39

or just things I didn't ask that you'd just like to share.

2:01:42

-

I think we pretty much covered everything

2:01:46

and they just want to thank you for what you are doing.

2:01:48

Interviewer

Thank you, it was amazing.

2:01:51

Thank you.

2:01:52

-

[Female Crew Member] Can I just ask,

2:01:53

confirm in your opinion with

2:01:56

all the information that you had,

2:02:00

did you have any doubts that all

2:02:05

of the Uyghurs from Guantanamo were innocent

2:02:08

of conspiring against the United States?

2:02:13

-

I don't have any doubts.

2:02:16

I have talked to them from day one

2:02:17

and the love and the trust and respect they had

2:02:22

toward the Americans and the United States.

2:02:25

And even after what happened was Chinese delegation.

2:02:29

Even after it seven, eight years being

2:02:32

in a jail when they came out today

2:02:34

when you ask them,

2:02:37

privately, when I talked to them

2:02:38

when I asked them, how do you feel about United States now?

2:02:40

They say, if they wanted to hurt us,

2:02:44

they could have sent us back to China.

2:02:50

and all this years how much

2:02:53

Chinese government pressured United States.

2:02:55

And we understand that the China always wanted to

2:02:57

pick us back, the U.S. protected us.

2:03:01

So we don't have any hard feelings.

2:03:04

Yes, we don't trust them

2:03:07

defending Uyghur people's human rights

2:03:09

like the way we did at the beginning.

2:03:14

But I guess every country thinks about their own benefit

2:03:16

and U.S. is thinking about their own benefit.

2:03:20

And if we had the country,

2:03:23

we would have done the same thing, probably.

2:03:24

So we can't judge U.S. for that.

2:03:26

Interviewer

I guess we're done

2:03:34

-

[Female Crew Member] I just wanted that on tape

2:03:37

in case there ever is a sound bite.

2:03:38

Abbas, Rushan - Interview master file

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