Hénin, Nicolas - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Cameraman

Okay, we're rolling.

0:05

Peter

Okay, good morning.

0:07

-

Good morning Peter.

0:08

-

We are very grateful to you for participating

0:09

in the Witness to Guantanamo Project today.

0:12

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:16

and involvement with issues of Guantanamo.

0:19

We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity

0:23

to tell your story in your own words.

0:25

We are creating an archive of stories,

0:28

so that people in America and around the world

0:31

will have a better opportunity to understand what happened.

0:33

And hopefully your experiences will contribute to that.

0:38

Future generations must know what happened in Guantanamo

0:42

and the impact of Guantanamo internationally.

0:46

And by telling your story you contributing to history.

0:50

We are very grateful for your coming today to speak to us

0:55

and your willingness to tell us your story.

0:59

At any time you'd like to take a break,

1:02

please let us know.

1:04

And if you do say something that you'd like us to review

1:05

we can certainly remove it or review it.

1:08

And we'd like to begin by asking you your name and your age

1:11

and date of birth, and some background about yourself.

1:15

-

So I'm Nicholas Henin in French

1:22

you would say Nicola Inno.

1:25

So as you can get from my accent, I'm obviously French.

1:27

I'm just about to turn 40.

1:32

I was born on the 7th of November, 1975

1:36

and I am a freelance journalist.

1:42

I started journalism in 99

1:46

so a bit over 15 years now.

1:50

Peter

And your education?

1:52

-

And I have a master in history

1:54

and international relations.

1:58

This master, I met it in Cairo, and it was

2:01

about the international relations in the Middle East.

2:05

And I specialized very early on in the Middle East

2:10

because I started to travel in the region.

2:13

As soon as I turned 18, as soon as I was allowed to go

2:16

for vacations without my family, I just bought a plane

2:21

a very cheap plane ticket and I traveled actually to Syria.

2:27

And so this is where and how I discovered the region

2:31

and very early as well as I was still a student

2:38

in literature,

2:42

I started selling journalism pieces,

2:47

I mean on a freelance basis to papers,

2:52

to French papers.

2:56

After this master of history,

2:59

I started journalism in Paris.

3:04

Peter

And did you work independently

3:07

throughout these 15 years?

3:09

-

I started in a small press agency

3:11

in Paris for three years.

3:13

And by the end, by summer actually of 2002,

3:17

I saw coming an American invasion of Iraq

3:24

and I decided, okay

3:28

I have to be there because this is a history making.

3:30

And then I left my job

3:34

and I concentrated all my time.

3:41

I focused on trying to get the Iraqi visa

3:45

which was extremely difficult to get at that time.

3:48

And even though I wasn't a staff reporter for any paper

3:54

I got one just because for two months

3:58

I only lobbied and looked for a way to get this Iraqi visa

4:01

while any staff reporter, okay,

4:06

will have a nice visit card,

4:08

but well didn't have so much amount of time

4:12

to spend just for visa.

4:16

So I arrived among the very first in November, 2002

4:18

in Baghdad with a visa valid for two weeks.

4:23

And I decided to overstay

4:27

until the American released me.

4:30

And this is actually the funny part of the story.

4:32

I was probably the only one truly released basis

4:34

in American invasion because the Iraqi people were nothing

4:39

but released were not racist at all.

4:41

But myself, yes, I would have been put to jail

4:44

if they would have found me with such a long overstate.

4:48

Peter

The Iraqis would have put--

4:54

-

No the Iraqis, So I could not leave the country

4:55

because I could not cross any border

4:59

with the entry stamp pens visa that I had in my passport.

5:03

Peter

How long did you stay in Iraq that time?

5:07

-

Well, until after almost six months.

5:10

Peter

And do you speak other languages

5:13

besides French and English?

5:14

-

I speak some Arabic, but little.

5:18

I lost a lot of it and I speak German.

5:20

-

{peter] Huh. And so after you left Iraq,

5:25

what happened then back in 03?

5:28

-

I came back to France for some time

5:33

and then I went back to Iraq

5:35

and I was correspondent in Baghdad

5:36

for two years for actually, well, anyone wanted to hire me

5:38

but I ended as a correspondent for the French public radio,

5:47

Radio France, which well took most of my time.

5:51

And that was virtually a full-time job.

5:58

And so at that time, I was mostly working for Radio France

6:01

and for the Newsmakers in LaPointe

6:07

Peter

Can you take us up to the time you were--

6:11

-

I studied in Iraq for some time afterwards when

6:15

Iraq became too dangerous, I moved to Jordan,

6:18

afterwards I kept moving bu I met my wife,

6:19

with my wife so that was a bit of a personal story in that.

6:26

And when the Arab spring started

6:30

I covered it, of course intensively.

6:34

Peter

In different countries?

6:40

-

Yeah, in all of the countries

6:41

except for Tunisia that I missed

6:43

and I would have loved to cover it

6:49

but wow, I had no chance.

6:52

And I was actually the first TV reporter

6:59

to enter Syria illegally after the beginning

7:04

of the revolution, as early as September of 2011

7:10

I crossed the Syrian border with middlers from Turkey.

7:16

And I went down to homes.

7:23

So I crossed a big part of Syria

7:26

and I kept covering this revolution that ended up

7:31

in the civil war, as it developed

7:37

and during my fifth trip that was in June, 2013,

7:47

I went to Raca, Raca is a city in Eastern Syria.

7:56

That is now one of the two defacto capital towns,

8:02

capital cities of the Islamic state.

8:09

And at that time Raca just fell.

8:17

I mean, the Syrian regime lost its grip and on Raca.

8:21

It was bitten by coalition of Jihadi groups.

8:28

The Islamic state did not exist at that time.

8:34

It was Jabhat al-Nusra and there were some competing groups,

8:36

must have been Islamic that took the control

8:41

of the city.

8:45

And that was the first,

8:46

because Syria is a federal state.

8:51

That was the first federal capital city to be lost

8:56

by the Syrian regime.

9:01

And I wanted to see, because to administrate a countryside

9:03

is not that difficult because people will always find a way

9:07

to cope while they can rely much more

9:13

on the local resources, but to administrative city

9:17

that's a different story.

9:20

And I wanted to see how rebels were administrating

9:23

a large city after they take control of it.

9:32

And that was the first aim of this report, after 10 days,

9:36

I was abducted.

9:41

Peter

At that point

9:45

ISIS still didn't exist when you were abducted.

9:46

-

Actually on the morning of my abduction I read the news

9:49

and the internet that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

9:54

so the self-proclaimed Calif of the Islamic state

10:00

told Ayman Al-Zawahiri of Al Qaeda to go to hell.

10:08

So he told him I have basically, well, it just summarizes

10:17

the message, but it was like, I go on my own.

10:22

I'm fed up with you.

10:25

So that was actually, I was abducted

10:27

on the day of the divorce pretty much.

10:31

And so on the day the Islamic state

10:33

was started to exist definitively as an independent entity.

10:36

Peter

Before we go into the abduction

10:44

did you know that could happen,

10:46

that you were people abducted

10:48

before you, were you afraid at all?

10:49

Were you aware?

10:51

-

Very few cases were public

10:54

because that was a problem with this abductions.

10:56

Many of the cases were kept under blackout,

11:00

the only cases I heard of were for James Folly

11:05

and for my two fellow French journalist,

11:11

Anza had been taken in a region where there were a lot

11:17

of small groups competing with a lot of math.

11:22

Yes.

11:29

So I would thinking that they had been taken

11:31

just by small rogue groups

11:34

only looking for money and with no political agenda.

11:41

And that was actually my mistake.

11:46

My first mistake was to ignore

11:49

that there could have been some other objections

11:53

that were kept secret.

11:57

And to believe that the Jihadi rebels,

12:04

that the Jihadi groups in Syria had only a political agenda

12:10

and focused on the regime and that's especially in the west

12:16

because I met some Jihadists

12:21

including Alipo a year before.

12:25

And I mean I'm not going to say

12:30

that they were friendly to me, but they were like, okay

12:33

we don't want to deal with Western press.

12:37

While other rebel groups were very keen

12:40

at embedding us and taking us

12:43

with them to report on and to make reports with them

12:47

and on them.

12:50

Peter

So you felt safe at that point?

12:52

-

Yes. Pretty much.

12:55

Peter

Were you alone?

12:56

-

I left alone and while in Iraq I met another friend

12:59

journalist and photographer named Pietto Res

13:05

and we became friends

13:10

and he was taken a few hours after me.

13:13

Peter

And so maybe you could describe

13:19

how you were abducted, how that happened.

13:22

-

Well, you don't need any imagination

13:26

or just go to your imagination.

13:31

What does an abduction look like?

13:33

It's just like in a movie, there's a car that breaks,

13:35

stops right in front of you in the street,

13:39

in the middle of the city

13:42

and guys with their face covered

13:44

under baklavas and with the Kalashnikov,

13:53

jump on you, grab you, take you, poof,

13:57

10 seconds you're done.

13:59

Peter

You had no 401 and you were just in the street?

14:01

-

No, nothing.

14:03

Peter

And did they say who they were?

14:05

-

Just bullshit.

14:09

They never said their name.

14:11

Peter

And they did anything when they abducted you

14:14

or they just grabbed you?

14:16

-

No.

14:17

Peter

So what were you thinking?

14:18

-

I was thinking like that

14:25

It was, yeah,

14:34

it was gangsters.

14:40

I realized they were gangsters at the first second.

14:45

It just took me few days to realize

14:50

that there were a Islamic state.

14:52

And then I realized that Islamic state were gangsters.

14:55

Peter

And how did you realize they were Islamic state?

15:00

They tell you?

15:02

-

Yeah.

15:03

After I ran away, I just escaped on the third day

15:04

and I broke the bars of my cell and I ran in the desert

15:08

for the night and they took me back

15:15

very already in the morning.

15:21

And they took me back to the same place

15:23

and then they punished me a bit and they told me

15:27

during the punishments that they were Mujahideen

15:32

as the Islamic state.

15:38

Peter

When you escaped did you know,

15:39

were you still in the same town?

15:41

-

Yeah. No, it was in a prison but between Mojis desert.

15:43

Peter

And did you know where you were

15:48

when you were running away?

15:49

Did you know the area.

15:51

-

Not much.

15:54

Peter

And they went looking for you

15:55

or they just happened to find you?

15:58

Did they go looking for you?

16:00

-

No, they were just lucky.

16:01

I thought I had been taken by a small group

16:03

and that the core of the Islamic groups

16:13

running the city were still harnessed.

16:22

And I even thought that I had to go

16:27

to the headquarters of the group in Raca

16:32

and to say hello, dressed I would like to notice,

16:36

but some rogue elements of your groups did that to me.

16:38

And that's really bad.

16:43

And I would like you to punish them.

16:45

Yeah, it's laughable now.

16:48

Peter

So then could you tell us what happened

16:53

after they recaptured you and then--

16:54

-

I don't want to go into details.

16:58

Peter

In terms of how you.

17:01

-

After a couple of weeks, I was moved along with Pierra

17:04

that I didn't know until then, that he had been taken too.

17:10

I was moved to Alepo

17:13

and there I met with many other hostages

17:17

in the course of the summer of 2013, then I met people

17:24

like David Haynes had been murdered,

17:29

Jon, the two other French journalist.

17:35

I also met with Daniel Ray, Danish photographer

17:39

who has been released afterwards.

17:44

I also met with James Foley and John Candy

17:46

and we are put altogether in the same jail from this point.

17:53

And two days after Steven Sotloff is abducted

17:59

he joins our set as well.

18:03

Peter

And everyone at that point understood

18:06

ISIS was in control.

18:09

-

Yeah, it wasn't clear yet to which extent it was ISIS

18:13

or the international,

18:21

some subgroups of Jabhat al-Nusra.

18:25

So the Al-Qaeda affiliate.

18:29

So for us, we were somehow in the hands of Al Qaeda

18:32

and we realized that it was even worse than that.

18:37

Peter

And the reason why we're interviewing you

18:43

is because of the connection to Guantanamo.

18:46

So when did you start feeling like there was a connection?

18:49

-

Actually,

18:56

there was among the jailers, our jailers.

19:02

Some people, you have to understand

19:09

that this is still an ongoing story.

19:13

They are still at the time

19:15

of where we are recording this interview.

19:16

They are still holding one hostage I know of

19:19

namely John Cantlie and apparently

19:26

some others I didn't meet,

19:31

but well so it's difficult for me to go deep into details

19:35

of the jailers

19:41

or because I don't want to jeopardize of course.

19:44

And I think that is still ongoing

19:48

but I think I can still tell you,

19:52

is that among my jailers

19:58

there was someone that was later nicknamed Jihad John

20:01

and he with others

20:10

had in mind to somehow marrow Guantanamo.

20:17

He's aim was to take revenge

20:31

of Guantanamo by doing exactly the same thing.

20:36

So grabbing more or less innocent people were killed

20:43

and then let them pay the price

20:50

for what their government has done.

20:54

So this is what was insane.

20:58

And when I got the connection with you

21:04

through Murad Bencherali, was a French former detainee

21:10

of Guantanamo.

21:13

And it happened some, I think just some weeks

21:15

after my release that I heard his story from his mouth.

21:21

And I realized this is crazy because

21:26

what we both of us experienced are the two ends

21:30

of the very same crazy machine.

21:36

And we have been taken out of the normal world by people,

21:41

by mad people who want to take revenge on something

21:49

but aren't the bad people and in a bad way.

21:57

So just as well, Guantanamo has been made to take revenge

22:01

on 911,

22:09

this abduction enterprise

22:12

I was part of along with the two dozens

22:15

of Western hostages, was made to take revenge on

22:18

the war on terror and the Western intervention

22:27

in the middle east.

22:33

I want to stress as I'm talking about that of course

22:36

we do not have to believe this

22:43

because just like for Guantanamo, this is just a pretext.

22:45

I mean, when Jihadi John appears on camera

22:50

with James folly, kneeling down in the Syrian desert

22:55

and Jihadi John says something like,

23:02

"Obama remove your troops and stop intervening in Syria

23:07

"or I killed him" or threatened to kill the next one.

23:11

I mean, he knows very well the result of this movie,

23:15

he knows very well, that this murder

23:20

will conduct to even more Western or American intervention

23:23

in this conflict.

23:29

And even more strikes.

23:31

What he wants really truly is deeper intervention

23:32

and escalation is a conflict.

23:37

So when these people pretend

23:40

that they're taking revenge and that they want,

23:42

on the Western intervention and as they want it stop,

23:45

they are just lying, what they want an Armageddon.

23:48

They just want a no end escalation of the conflict

23:53

because they believe in a clash of civilizations.

23:57

Peter

How do you know that?

24:01

-

Through their literature

24:02

and through the references to especially

24:05

the Hadith, the verses in the Sunnah

24:12

is that is about the Town of Debek

24:20

because they believe that the battle

24:23

of the end of the world would happen in Syria.

24:26

And will confront very large coalition

24:30

of Western armies against a very large coalition

24:35

with Muslims coming from all over world.

24:40

And this is precisely what is happening.

24:42

And this is something that,

24:45

is that the game that we Westerners are playing

24:48

which is totally insane because we are shooting in our foot.

24:51

Peter

So did you know that

24:56

at that time that he expressed that to you

24:58

or this is how you observed it later?

25:00

-

They put us after some time

25:13

and what they wanted to be a model prison.

25:15

So with

25:21

CCTVs,

25:27

with uniforms, orange uniforms,

25:29

with identity numbers written on the orange jumpsuit.

25:35

And this is basically where the only time

25:43

when they feed us properly, because they were model,

25:46

they wanted to show to us that they were the official

25:52

jail administration off the Islamic state.

26:01

They wanted to play state like.

26:06

Peter

And did they say to you

26:08

you're wearing an orange jumpsuit

26:10

because this is Guantanamo?

26:11

Or do they say?

26:13

-

Yes.

26:14

Peter

And they did they say to you essentially

26:16

this is revenge for Guantanamo.

26:18

Is that how they explained it to you?

26:19

-

They told us things like, well, you are guilty

26:26

because you either journalists or hard workers

26:31

are on the frontline of the war of terror

26:39

of the clash of civilization,

26:46

because you are the people shaping the public opinion

26:48

of your country.

26:55

So yes, you're telling us that you are not responsible

26:57

for the duties of your government,

27:03

but you as a people who shaped the public opinion

27:05

that elected is this government that did that.

27:11

So you are even more responsible

27:15

that actual fighters with weapons.

27:18

So you especially deserve punishment.

27:22

And the many references to drone wars.

27:31

So the drone strikes, especially in Yemen

27:38

they were very much influenced by Anua Aulaki.

27:41

So this American origin Jihadi

27:47

was killed by a drone strike in Yemen.

27:53

And they were also very much inspired

27:58

by the Iraqi insurgency.

28:01

And I came to the conclusion

28:03

that the Islamic state is the result

28:07

of an intervention on one hand and a non intervention

28:13

on the other.

28:18

It's a result of the American invasion of Iraq.

28:19

That was the source of Al-Qaeda in Iraq

28:24

because Al-Qaeda was not in Iraq before the invasion

28:30

as everyone knows in the US

28:33

and the abandon of the Syrians

28:40

after the start the revolution

28:43

because they received no help, no support,

28:45

because there was no intervention in Syria.

28:48

And this is what is crazy by the way

28:50

with international politics.

28:52

Especially when you look at the issue of,

28:55

as the chemical weapons

28:59

because basically Iraq was invaded

29:01

after false acquisitions of having chemical weapons

29:05

but where chemical weapons are being used

29:08

on the face of the world.

29:12

And with everyone's knowledge

29:13

nothing happened, when the intervention would have been

29:16

for the sake of the people

29:20

and not for the sake of some imperialism,

29:21

then there is nothing.

29:24

These two fundamental to the very same extent are

29:27

the origins of the Islamic state

29:37

and contributed to the Islamic state

29:39

was at a very similar level.

29:43

And this is, I mean, some people sometime criticize me

29:46

and tell me, oh you're just like another crusader,

29:49

you wanted a Westwind Vitoria, no way,

29:54

or you wanted,

29:58

in Iraq it was good to intervene.

30:02

I mean, you can say the same intervention is done.

30:05

Non intervention is because I believe to the same level.

30:08

And that it was the same logic that creates intervention.

30:12

And the non intervention are the same result

30:15

and produce the same cost.

30:18

Peter

Did you understand that when you were a hostage?

30:20

-

It was a good point during this captivity

30:24

is that I had a lot of time to think.

30:27

And yes, and by the way this reflections

30:30

as a basis of a book I have written after wars,

30:38

which is not a book about my time in captivity,

30:42

but book about, well that's a reflection

30:44

on the region in general

30:47

and on the causes for the rise

30:49

of this Islamic state and particular and this book

30:51

by the way will be released in English this fall,

30:55

this winter.

31:00

Peter

And did you have this conversation

31:00

with any of your captors.

31:01

-

Very little, because they were close to that

31:03

then it's just like,

31:06

oh how do you call someone

31:13

who believes in plots, completist?

31:15

Lady

Conspirator?

31:19

-

A conspiracist, yes.

31:20

So Jihadis are like members of a sect or comparatorists.

31:22

Peter

Conspirators or conspiracy theorists.

31:31

-

Yeah. They believe in conspiracies.

31:34

That means that they live their vision of the world.

31:38

What the German nicely call Velten Siobhan,

31:46

is consistent it in itself.

31:52

So they see a code and a reason for every action.

31:58

There are logic, they are not crazy.

32:04

They have a logic, they're consistent,

32:06

but they just live in a model, in a world

32:10

that is a bit parallel.

32:13

It's very difficult to have a grip on them

32:25

and to bring them to the real world

32:28

and to explain to them that, no, they are not what they are.

32:32

Their fight does not produce the effect that they pretend

32:40

and that because most of them have good faith.

32:47

I mean, they truly believe they are very genuine,

32:52

they truly believe that they are in Syria to help the people

32:56

and that they are fighting for the good

33:00

and that all the rest is evil.

33:02

I mean, they're not evil.

33:04

I mean, the enemy is always stupid.

33:06

He believes that he is the enemy while he is.

33:12

(Narrator chuckles)

33:15

I mean, if you want to understand a war

33:17

you have to just imagine what your enemy think.

33:22

And we believe that Islamic state is the evil.

33:26

Peter

Right?

33:31

-

As they believe that the rest of the world is.

33:32

So it's very difficult to have to have a discussion

33:37

on this issues with them,

33:40

because was very arithmetic to

33:44

logical arguments.

33:51

Peter

So the fact that you were French,

33:54

if they come, they thought of Guantanamo

33:57

since you a French, why would they tie you into Guantanamo

33:59

with the Americans?

34:03

-

Well, France was not a part of the Iraqi invasion

34:04

but it's still part of the war on terror

34:09

as French president at that time, Jacques Chirac

34:13

was the first head of state to go to New York after 911,

34:16

for instance, to bring support

34:20

and to witness support to the American people.

34:23

So we are still on eyes.

34:26

They see it obviously

34:29

and therefore we are common enemies to them.

34:32

So, but what helped us, because some people

34:39

in our group of hostages have been extremely badly treated.

34:44

I don't want to go with details and names

34:57

especially because some have been killed.

35:03

And I don't want to add pain

35:08

to the pain of the loss to their relatives.

35:12

And some had been relieved.

35:16

And it's up to them to talk

35:21

about what's happened through, but yes,

35:24

some of us in the group have been through actual torture

35:28

and sometime in a very intense way,

35:34

we the French have probably been relatively protected

35:42

because most of our endeavors were

35:47

very much inspired by the Iraqian Surgency.

35:57

So that was better protection on the French somehow

36:01

even though, I mean, it was extremely relative

36:06

but there was not the same amount

36:10

of animosity towards us than towards

36:14

as especially the American and the British.

36:18

Peter

So they did make a distinction.

36:22

-

On a marginal level.

36:25

Yes.

36:26

Peter

You might not wanna answer this and that's fine,

36:28

but--

36:30

-

I mean, we were their enemy, but not their arch enemies.

36:31

Peter

Right.

36:35

And they, so they were sophisticated enough

36:36

to make that distinction.

36:38

-

Definitely, is that extremely politicized.

36:40

I mean, a conspiracionist will spend his nights

36:42

on his computer reading.

36:47

I mean, news,

36:51

well, this kind of we call it in French re-information.

36:55

I don't know if it makes any meaning in English

37:01

or for an American viewer but it's, re-information in France

37:03

is a theory that says that what is in the mainstream media

37:11

is crap is based voluntarily

37:19

by journalists who have under any pressure

37:24

usually because of foreign stare, sometimes US or Israel

37:31

or as the Gulf states or whatever

37:38

and that they have to deliver the real message.

37:41

You have the same thing, of course in the US,

37:46

people who believe in corporations conspiracies

37:54

will be extremely politicized

37:59

in a wrong way with a wrong vision.

38:02

But it is typically someone who reads a lot

38:05

and informing himself a lot on the world affairs.

38:09

Peter

When you mentioned Israel

38:16

did they bring Israel up in these conversations?

38:17

-

A bit, but yeah, a bit, but not as much

38:21

as the US especially

38:26

and well, the US and the UK and say,

38:31

we're definitely their arch enemies

38:36

mostly because some of the shallows were British nationals

38:38

and had a very specific animosity towards Britain.

38:42

And also because of, yeah,

38:51

their relationship with Iraqi insurgency, which was yeah.

38:52

Targeted specifically as Americans

38:58

Peter

When they, and I know you don't wanna describe it

39:02

and we don't need to hear it

39:05

but when they did harsh treatment or torture of people

39:06

did they ever say we're doing this particular thing

39:10

because it's what Guantanamo does.

39:12

-

I will tell about waterboarding.

39:18

Few of my former cellmates have been waterboarded.

39:22

And this was when they did that

39:33

they did that because of Guantanamo.

39:38

And they spoke of Guantanamo.

39:41

I cannot go into details because no one was waterboarded

39:47

at the time I was,

39:50

well, at the time we were sharing a cell

39:53

so it was mostly before and apparently a bit

39:58

after my release for some of my cellmates I left behind.

40:03

And that was specifically admirer of Guantanamo.

40:12

This is what they wanted to do.

40:20

Say they wanted to marrow Guantanamo

40:22

to say to take revenge.

40:26

And what is amazing is that they marrowed

40:31

it so well is that even marrowed it's mistake

40:37

namely doing bad things to the wrong people

40:42

because as you must have seen since you started your project

40:50

many of Guantanamo's inmates were innocent.

40:55

Just like, I believe that no one in my group of hostages

41:00

deserve to be there.

41:10

And as the opposite in this group

41:12

we all decided to go to Syria.

41:15

None of us was making good money going into Syria.

41:17

None of us, it's not for,

41:20

we didn't go to Syria to make glory or to make a fortune.

41:23

We have been to Syria

41:31

because either being hard workers or journalists

41:32

we had some experience, some knowledge of the region

41:38

and a lot of sympathy for the people in the region.

41:43

And we did like what I still do by the way.

41:51

But we weren't,

41:56

I mean someone who is a racist

42:01

or an Islamophobe,

42:05

we did not go to Syria to report on the insurgency,

42:09

on the revolution or to help the local population.

42:14

And if someone would actually no one deserves

42:21

to be taken hostage

42:26

but if someone would deserve to be taken hostage

42:27

it would rather be this kind of people

42:31

racist or Islamophobic.

42:33

I mean, if they pretend to fight racism or Islamophobia

42:36

because this is one of their main argument

42:41

to enlist new people, to come to and fight in Syria

42:43

but they actually favored them.

42:52

Islamophobia and jihadism are the two faces

42:55

of the same coin.

42:59

So its just like two rats running and running in a cage.

43:01

And they need them both to feed to move

43:05

and to fill it.

43:09

So, because the more Islamophobia you have

43:13

in the west, the more Jihadist will be able

43:16

to convince young Muslims, oh, you're marginalized.

43:20

You are not welcoming in your society.

43:26

Come we can provide you with a nice environment

43:28

to live your life as a Muslim.

43:31

And the other way the more you have a violence

43:33

and war and extremism

43:38

the more it will fuel Islamophobia in our countries.

43:41

So they need them and we cannot fight only one.

43:45

If we want to fight one, we have to,

43:50

well to consider both and to face them both parallel,

43:56

we have to tackle them in the same move.

44:00

Peter

I wanna go back to that

44:05

but I just want to ask you before I forget

44:06

did they also say that aids work is also

44:09

in the forefront in terms of sending their message

44:13

even though they were there to help the people?

44:15

-

Yes, because, and by the way it's not totally wrong.

44:18

I mean, it's not only out of humanitarian concern

44:23

that a government will decide to fund an aid program.

44:27

I mean, USAID or equivalent government bodies

44:32

in other countries are part of soft power

44:37

what is called soft power.

44:41

So to that extent, there are not totally wrong

44:43

because yes, when you deliver aid to a country,

44:50

it's not only out of humanitarian concerns

44:56

it's also part of your political influence worldwide.

44:58

But as this being said, it's totally insane.

45:05

Of course.

45:10

And I want to strengthen that to believe

45:12

that an individual, a humanitarian aid worker is an agent

45:16

of influence when he goes to a country on assignment,

45:23

for an NGO to help at the individual level

45:27

it is purely a humanitarian concern.

45:34

It does not see himself

45:39

as someone bringing a message from a government, of course.

45:41

Peter

And why did they wanna engage you in conversation

45:50

and educate you

45:53

and perhaps get you to convert to the message.

45:54

-

We had limited, well, only limited exchanges with them.

46:00

They did not specifically tried to convert

46:08

to Islam to make us convert to Islam

46:14

and for some, well for those of us who did convert,

46:21

especially in the hierarchy of the Islamic state

46:31

were a bit more disturbed by this conversion

46:33

because it's even less, it's even more difficult

46:37

to justify what they were doing on us since,

46:41

well, some of us were Muslims

46:46

but this only enlightens the little care that these people

46:49

have of their own religion,

46:55

it just like we had in the last days a visit of the pope,

47:01

the Catholic Pope in the US and actually,

47:08

well, most of the people in the Bible belt

47:14

will disagree with the Pope's messages

47:17

because many people in the Bible belt

47:22

while to may view at least betray the message of the Christ.

47:26

Peter

When you spoke to the other people

47:40

who were hostage with you

47:42

did others have the same insights you did

47:44

in terms of understanding this bigger picture?

47:46

-

A lot, yes.

47:49

We had, yes, extensive discussions about our vision

47:52

of the world.

48:00

And we were pretty much all of us on the same line.

48:03

Peter

In the Guantanamo issue too

48:07

did they seem like you did?

48:09

-

Yes.

48:11

Actually the Guantanamo issue

48:12

I did not witness it myself much.

48:15

It was witnessed especially

48:20

by some of my cellmates

48:25

who experienced more

48:30

with some of the jailers who had this in mind very much.

48:34

So I mostly heard it from them.

48:38

I experienced it when I, sorry.

48:44

I experienced it when mostly through

48:49

some of the discussions about the war on terror

48:54

and Guantanamo.

49:00

And when they put us in orange jumpsuits.

49:01

Peter

How long were you in an orange jumpsuit?

49:07

-

Couple of months.

49:10

Peter

You wore an orange jumpsuit

49:12

for a couple of months.

49:13

-

Yes. And we had some infection problem

49:14

that caused them to sterilize us

49:21

and it just had to burn our angina series

49:29

because they were all contaminated.

49:32

Peter

And do you know where they got those

49:35

orange jumpsuits?

49:36

-

Oh, they made them locally.

49:38

At a local retailer obviously.

49:43

Peter

And when they gave you the orange jumpsuits

49:45

you make the connection to Guantanamo

49:47

did they say you're wearing them

49:49

because detainees wear them?

49:51

-

Yes.

Peter

Did you hear them say that?

49:53

-

Yes, it was not only implicit

49:54

that this orange jumpsuits were related to Guantanamo.

50:00

They told us you are in now in the model prison

50:04

off the Islamic state, because we are a state.

50:11

And because you are like, it's a high-value detainees.

50:18

Peter

If Guantanamo didn't exist

50:26

do you think you've had a different experience?

50:30

-

Definitely.

50:32

And more widely if the war on terror wouldn't have happened

50:35

the experience would have been a total different

50:42

especially when it comes to waterboarding

50:44

because waterboarding was something extremely specific.

50:49

I mean, the Islamic state is a fusion of two cultures.

50:52

And you can see it very well

50:59

when you look at their propaganda movies.

51:00

In their propaganda movies,

51:03

you have references to Islamic series,

51:04

popular Islamic series that are produced by Arab TVs,

51:09

archery, horses, fire,

51:17

flags, or flames.

51:22

Swirled, all these are things that you will

51:25

that are very high

51:28

in the popularized limits areas.

51:34

And you have references to horror movies or our video games

51:37

in terms of imagery, clothes, and so on and visual codes.

51:45

So, because this group as a fusion

51:48

is a result of the fusion between two populations

51:54

that had originally nothing to do together

51:59

which are namely rural people from the Euphrates valley.

52:02

So you know the people wearing Jalabiya Kofia

52:07

was a burden to them so the peasants and rebels

52:10

from around neighborhoods the baggy pants

52:16

and the cat and watched "Arthur" series

52:20

and played the same video games our kids are playing

52:25

and the same series our kids are watching.

52:29

So these two very different population met there.

52:32

And this is what is crazy is

52:40

that they succeeded to merge these two population.

52:43

And it is exactly the same,

52:50

this fusion you can also notice it

52:51

in the weather torture

52:54

because part of the torture,

52:56

I spoke with some people specialized in

53:04

who deal with people who found

53:08

assimilation in France but were chartered in our country

53:13

and they provide psychological help

53:20

to these refugees who were tortured at home.

53:23

And this psychologist told me that there is a school

53:29

of torturing.

53:36

There is a manner to torture in every country

53:37

and actually in the jails of the Islamic state

53:44

the way the tortured was a mix of Syrian regime

53:52

and war on terror because you had in the group

53:57

people who experienced themselves this torture

54:02

from these two periods.

54:06

Peter

They experienced themselves

54:10

you mean they were tortured by Americans?

54:11

-

Yes.

54:12

And or by Syrians.

54:13

Peter

Did you actually meet someone

54:16

who was tortured by Americans?

54:18

Peter

One of my jailer told me,

54:21

I think it is bullshit

54:24

but he still told us I, he was Tunisian or is Tunisian.

54:25

I don't know if he's still alive.

54:32

He told me, I spent, I think, four years in Guantanamo.

54:34

Peter

One of your jailers told you that?

54:39

-

Yes.

54:40

Peter

Do you know his name?

54:41

-

No, not even his known hair.

54:42

The only thing I know is that he was Tunisian

54:45

and I never saw his face

54:50

but I would say in his maximum mid 30s.

54:52

Peter

You never saw his face.

54:57

You mean your jailers always kept their face

54:58

hidden from you?

54:59

-

Almost always. Yes.

55:01

Except for the very low ranking or sometime,

55:04

normally yes.

55:09

Peter

A couple of things, I don't know if they knew,

55:11

I don't know if you knew, but it's not clear

55:13

that waterboarding happened in Guantanamo.

55:15

If it did happen

55:17

by the CIA in a separate building down there

55:18

and that hasn't been documented completely.

55:21

Although some people believe that's

55:24

what's true about the CIA

55:26

but it was totally separate

55:27

from the military running Guantanamo.

55:28

-

Yeah, this is why said

55:30

I separated myself Guantanamo and the war on terror

55:32

because Guantanamo is part of the war on terror.

55:36

But the war on terror more widely is,

55:38

well it's invasion of two countries.

55:41

And well ways to kill that torture,

55:48

basically where terrorism is something extremely specific.

55:50

Because normally if you do something

55:55

the success of your deed will be up to your ability

55:59

to do it.

56:05

Peter

Right.

56:07

-

But with terrorism, it's not the success

56:08

of a terrorist act is not up to the terrorist.

56:13

It is up to the victim.

56:17

A successful terrorist act is an act

56:20

to which the victim will react

56:29

in the manner the terrorist wanted.

56:33

So it is the victim of the act who will complete the success

56:39

of the attack.

56:52

So basically, the best example to that is 911.

56:53

You have to be stupid to believe

57:03

that you punished Al-Qaeda

57:05

by invading Afghanistan and Iraq.

57:09

No, the real success of 911 was not the destruction

57:11

of the twin towers.

57:18

It was the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq

57:19

and it was Bin Laden

57:24

who did that, but the victim of Bin Laden.

57:28

And this is what is extremely specific with terrorism.

57:33

And this is something we have to learn.

57:39

And this is a message we shall propagate

57:42

because most of the time when we pretend

57:44

that we fight terrorism we actually feel it.

57:48

Peter

And that's what you were saying

57:54

that you said the ISIS people you met clearly wanted

57:55

the armageddon that was their goal?

57:59

-

I don't remember for sure

58:05

that I heard this while in captivity

58:08

but this is what after my release,

58:11

I extensively read Jihadist literature.

58:15

And especially I read their online magazine, "The Big,"

58:20

and it's extremely clear in this magazine.

58:28

They even made a special issue on that.

58:36

One of their very first issues of "The Big"

58:40

was on the judgment day and the battle beforehand.

58:43

Peter

So if Guantanamo didn't exist

58:50

things might feel different and perhaps even better than--

58:52

-

Definitely.

58:56

Definitely. I mean, Guantanamo was one

58:58

of the most efficient recruiting tool for Jihadis

59:01

after 911.

59:05

Peter

You believe that?

59:06

-

Definately, I mean not only me and myself,

59:07

I have more like a humanitarian

59:10

or a human rights perspective but even,

59:13

I mean even security

59:17

or a intelligence express will tell you that,

59:19

even the military will tell you that,

59:23

even people in the other side

59:26

I'm not a fighter myself, but even fighters,

59:27

even people who are engaged with violence.

59:31

A good fighter is someone who knows how to restrain

59:34

his use of force,

59:38

to optimize it.

59:42

Peter

Was the CIA mentioned and MI5

59:46

while you were captive?

59:49

-

Yeah. Mostly to justify our capture

59:50

pretending that we were intelligence people.

59:53

It was just bullshit.

59:57

Peter

Do you think they knew that was not true?

59:59

They just made it up

1:00:01

or you think they might've thought that.

1:00:02

-

I don't know.

1:00:03

These people live in such a parallel world that I don't know

1:00:04

if they were believing their bullshit or not.

1:00:07

It's difficult to assess if they lie to you

1:00:13

because just want to lie to you

1:00:17

or if they truly believes their lies.

1:00:24

Peter

And there's something

1:00:26

called extraordinary rendition.

1:00:27

Did they bring that up at all?

1:00:29

-

I knew, what was this of course,

1:00:31

but wait,

1:00:33

I don't remember

1:00:40

if they did bring it up, but once again

1:00:42

from what I've read of their propaganda literature,

1:00:49

it's very important to them.

1:00:56

And it has been as well a powerful recruitment tool.

1:01:00

Peter

The way you describe it

1:01:05

and I think that's important for history.

1:01:06

Is that Guantanamo still the lightening.

1:01:08

-

Yes.

1:01:11

Peter

But that is really more than anything else

1:01:12

what drove that tension no matter what Guantanamo

1:01:15

really is.

1:01:18

-

Yes.

1:01:19

Peter

And in Guantanamo there was a lot of,

1:01:20

there was quite a bit of isolation

1:01:23

and actually Guantanamo detainees

1:01:25

we interviewed describe Guantanamo

1:01:27

as a psychological prison than just physical abuse.

1:01:29

A lot of physical abuse occurred prior

1:01:33

to people being sent to Guantanamo.

1:01:35

Was that understood by these people

1:01:38

and did they talk in terms of, or did they take you

1:01:39

in terms of isolation or psychological abuse?

1:01:42

-

Actually,

1:01:47

to take someone hostage is per se

1:01:52

a psychological abuse.

1:01:57

And they were very good at that.

1:02:00

Especially as they were playing about the timeframe

1:02:05

it happened a few times that they told us

1:02:10

you will be released tomorrow.

1:02:13

And it happened at least four or five times,

1:02:15

including two or three times very seriously.

1:02:19

And making us pack.

1:02:22

Peter

Really?

1:02:24

-

Yes.

1:02:25

Peter

Did they ever tell you afterwards that--

1:02:26

-

But on the other hand then two weeks later

1:02:27

the very same guys would come

1:02:31

and say, "You will never leave.

1:02:32

"You will die here

1:02:36

"because your government doesn't care about you.

1:02:37

"So you will die because the world has forgotten you.

1:02:40

"And you will stay here forever."

1:02:46

Peter

I knew this side where they had you pack your bags

1:02:50

as if you're leaving.

1:02:53

Did they say that was a Guantanamo trick

1:02:54

and we're doing the same thing, did they say that?

1:02:57

-

They even forced us to sing

1:03:06

remake version of "Hotel California"

1:03:12

that was badder than that.

1:03:17

And that was Osama Lovely Otta.

1:03:21

And it was about Guantanamo

1:03:25

and it was saying you will never leave.

1:03:30

Peter

And when they had you packed

1:03:34

did they say later on that was a trick Guantanamo?

1:03:35

-

No.

1:03:38

Peter

They just did that to you.

1:03:39

And when they said the first time

1:03:40

you're gonna leave the next day, did you believe it?

1:03:42

-

Of course you do.

1:03:45

Peter

So do you think they refer--

1:03:48

-

At the beginning you believe it,

1:03:50

after it happens to you a couple of times,

1:03:55

this is all about, it's all about the routine

1:03:58

of being a hostage, the only way to survive as a hostage,

1:04:02

even more than punctual physical abuse

1:04:09

the biggest pain comes from the fact

1:04:16

that you have no control on yourself,

1:04:18

but very little control on yourself

1:04:20

and no control at all about your future.

1:04:22

You don't have any control or even knowledge

1:04:25

about when you will be out or if ever you will be out

1:04:31

or about the outcome of your captivity.

1:04:38

And this the main source of pain I would say.

1:04:43

Peter

So that's what detainees would tell us

1:04:52

that the psychological torture is

1:04:55

on some level worse than the physical.

1:04:57

And is that when you would say too?

1:04:59

-

Yes.

1:05:01

And even 'cause physical torture,

1:05:02

how do you call the medicine to antidepressant?

1:05:12

Peter

Anti-depressant.

1:05:18

-

Anti-depressant, okay.

1:05:19

Or relaxing pill.

1:05:21

Peter

Okay. Yeah.

1:05:23

-

Okay. If you come to me and tell me,

1:05:25

okay, in a half an hour I will take you

1:05:29

to a torture room and I'm going to torture you.

1:05:34

But because I'm a nice guy, I'm here with two pills.

1:05:40

I have a painkiller

1:05:46

and I have a relaxing pill,

1:05:49

anti-stress, anti-stress.

1:05:53

You can take only one of them.

1:05:57

Which one would you like?

1:06:00

I would go for the second one.

1:06:01

Peter

The relaxing pill?

1:06:03

-

Yes. Because you can always deal with the pain.

1:06:04

It's not much a problem to deal with the pain.

1:06:08

Everything is up there and you have to be flatline

1:06:11

and to come back to your question

1:06:19

about the psychological torture.

1:06:21

It's all about being flatline.

1:06:29

They tell you, we will kill you.

1:06:31

Well, we will kill you tomorrow, you don't go down,

1:06:35

if they tell you, we will release you tomorrow,

1:06:38

you don't go high.

1:06:40

You just a flatline, a routine,

1:06:42

you enter a routine and you do not live it.

1:06:47

And until you see the border

1:06:52

and until you are actually released, but up to that point

1:06:57

you just stay in this routine.

1:07:03

So a flatline.

1:07:09

Peter

So did you observe that in the other captives

1:07:13

as well?

1:07:17

Do they all react the same way you're describing?

1:07:18

-

Some of us needed some time to adopt,

1:07:21

even myself of course.

1:07:24

I mean, all of us needed some time to adapt,

1:07:26

for some of us it came very fast.

1:07:29

Some others needed more time

1:07:35

but we eventually, well reach this level to calm down

1:07:38

with our emotion and to adjust.

1:07:46

Yeah relax and try to take events as they were going.

1:07:50

And I think that this is pretty much what captives

1:07:56

in Guantanamo walked on

1:08:03

because there must be pretty much

1:08:06

in the same as state of mind.

1:08:10

Basically they have no foreseeable future.

1:08:12

They can't know about their fate.

1:08:18

And it's about the same, I would say.

1:08:23

Peter

We interviewed some young detainees.

1:08:26

I'm thinking of one in particular

1:08:30

who was very forceful in fighting back

1:08:31

and he felt that's what would keep him going.

1:08:35

And he never became flatliner if you had the time

1:08:39

which why I'm asking you, if you saw anybody

1:08:43

who did just feel they had a fight back even if...

1:08:45

-

No

1:08:50

Some of us were bad flatliners,

1:08:53

(Narrator laughs)

1:08:56

and I'm glad that Jen Cantley is extremely good

1:09:00

at that.

1:09:03

Peter

You think who's good at that?

1:09:04

-

Jen Cantley, as the last remaining hostage,

1:09:06

is extremely strong and I'm very glad.

1:09:12

Peter

Strong in being a flatliner you mean?

1:09:15

-

Yes.

1:09:17

Peter

So you think that helped save you?

1:09:18

-

Yes.

1:09:20

So what he's going currently still going through

1:09:21

is totally insane, but I trust him

1:09:26

to endure it and to yeah.

1:09:32

To go straight with all of his trends.

1:09:37

Peter

'Cause he and you don't know

1:09:41

and we can take some of this off camera

1:09:42

but you don't know if he has company too

1:09:45

so that he has some other people in support?

1:09:50

-

I don't know.

1:09:53

I know of course, nothing,

1:09:55

except for some very little bits that a few people believed

1:09:57

after me, told me, I know of course

1:10:02

nothing of what happened

1:10:06

to my fellow cellmates after my release,

1:10:08

at least up to the point some of them were murdered.

1:10:14

Peter

Did ever meet Kayla Mula while you were there?

1:10:18

-

I met here once.

1:10:22

Peter

While you were captive?

1:10:23

-

Yes. And the day before my release

1:10:24

as they took her to our cell and she's spoke

1:10:28

for a few minutes, just introduce herself.

1:10:33

They apparently wanted us to deliver a proof

1:10:36

of life for her.

1:10:38

Peter

The day before you were released

1:10:41

and you know the next day you are gonna be released?

1:10:42

-

Yes.

1:10:45

They told us we would soon be released.

1:10:46

Peter

And this time?

1:10:50

-

And this time there had been some released already.

1:10:51

So we were starting to be a bit high

1:10:57

and no longer that much flatline?

1:11:00

Peter

Did they tell you'll never see your family again

1:11:04

or they talked about your family at all?

1:11:06

-

Yes.

1:11:08

Peter

Was that also deliberate

1:11:09

as part of the psychological?

1:11:11

-

Yes.

1:11:12

Yes, of course.

1:11:14

They were very good at that, they even--

1:11:15

Peter

Go on I'm sorry.

1:11:17

You were gonna say they even?

1:11:21

-

They even sent to my wife the picture

1:11:23

of the first hostage they killed, that was in public.

1:11:25

Peter

They send them to your wife?

1:11:28

-

By email, yes.

1:11:30

Before my release.

1:11:32

Peter

Did she know you were captive from the beginning?

1:11:34

-

Yes. She understood very soon.

1:11:36

Peter

And they had your wife's email from you or?

1:11:43

-

Yes.

1:11:44

Peter

They had told some people I know

1:11:46

in CIA rendition sites and perhaps in Guantanamo

1:11:50

that their wives were gonna be raped

1:11:54

or in front of them or anything did stories like that, or?

1:11:57

-

No, of course, because it was not a credible,

1:12:01

they had no access fortunately to our relatives

1:12:03

which is not the case

1:12:06

because in Guantanamo it's even worse because

1:12:07

the CIA is potentially so powerful

1:12:11

that you can imagine an abduction anywhere in the world.

1:12:14

Peter

Right.

1:12:16

-

Thanks, God, ISIS cannot do that.

1:12:20

Peter

ere they concerned about your children at all?

1:12:22

Were they interested in your children?

1:12:26

-

They no pity, neither for the children

1:12:28

or for anything else?

1:12:30

They were just sticking to the line.

1:12:34

You deserved that.

1:12:36

But the psychological torture was also for the families,

1:12:39

because I think that the pain of the relatives

1:12:47

is even bigger than the pain

1:12:54

of the captive when you're hostage, because the family

1:12:56

does not know anything.

1:13:00

The relatives of some of my former cellmates

1:13:08

received very first prove of life of their son

1:13:11

or brother only about something like a year

1:13:18

after the capture,

1:13:24

try to imagine that you just don't know, you don't know

1:13:29

if he has been killed and buried or burned or is taken

1:13:34

or the conditions you don't know.

1:13:42

(static sound)

1:13:43

than to experience firsthand.

1:13:49

So, and this is definitely,

1:13:54

I mean in this abduction enterprise

1:13:59

the victims they were not only 2000s of victims.

1:14:10

There were also the families because the pain

1:14:17

of the parents, of my parents, of my wife,

1:14:21

the pain of the relatives of all of my cellmates

1:14:28

was probably higher than my own pain.

1:14:33

Peter

Is something international that parents

1:14:40

suffered torture when their children disappear.

1:14:42

And I think that's what you're describing.

1:14:45

Could you just tell us how did your wife hear about you

1:14:47

being captured?

1:14:51

-

We had a security arrangement that was that I would

1:14:55

contact her in a way or another.

1:15:03

I had two satellite transmission device

1:15:05

namely a sat phone and data antenna.

1:15:11

So I was potentially reachable all the time.

1:15:13

I didn't have to rely on the local infrastructure.

1:15:20

And so

1:15:26

I told her before living that I would try to contact

1:15:30

her twice a day

1:15:36

but at least once a day

1:15:39

and that after 24 hours with no message from me

1:15:45

she should contact the Franc Ministry,

1:15:50

the crisis center.

1:15:55

And I had a contingency plan with everything listed

1:15:58

and the phone number and everything.

1:16:01

So she calls them on the 25th hour.

1:16:03

Peter

And they knew?

1:16:07

-

And they understood.

1:16:08

She first called them and they just took the message.

1:16:11

It was over the weekend.

1:16:17

So they said, okay, thank you for the notice.

1:16:18

And after that, she called the editor

1:16:23

of the main paper I worked for.

1:16:26

And he called someone high in the ministry.

1:16:29

And they called her back and it became very soon,

1:16:35

I think something serious.

1:16:40

Peter

How would they know?

1:16:43

-

They just knew

1:16:47

that considering the situation and considering

1:16:50

that the fact was the transmission devices I had with me

1:16:55

that it was something serious

1:16:59

if I did not communicate

1:17:03

and or answer calls or emails.

1:17:05

Peter

When ISIS took you did they try to explain

1:17:12

to you that they were different

1:17:14

from the other rebel groups in Syria?

1:17:16

Did they identify their part?

1:17:20

-

Yes. I had a bit

1:17:23

of a discussion about that with a European Jihadi.

1:17:25

And he told me is that

1:17:28

because they are in competition with all the other groups

1:17:32

they have no ally, no friend in Syria or Iraq.

1:17:35

So even with Al-Qaeda or with the other Jihadi group named,

1:17:41

Al-Hasham, they are competitors.

1:17:48

So their position, while at least the position

1:17:51

of this young European fighter is, was to say,

1:17:54

he told me, "Well, we have struggled with them

1:17:59

"but it's mostly at the level of the leaders.

1:18:03

But most of the people who fight

1:18:09

in these groups are good people except for the rebels.

1:18:14

So the FSA, the Fritz in the army,

1:18:19

they are just crooks

1:18:22

and they are not mostly in them, blah, blah, blah,

1:18:28

they are Kufar you know the story,

1:18:30

but they had some respect I would say,

1:18:33

at least at that time, at least when it comes

1:18:37

to this discussion, had some respect for the fighters

1:18:38

but for them, it was just a misleading leadership.

1:18:46

Peter

When you were there, did they give you news?

1:18:53

Were you informed of what was going on in the world at all?

1:18:56

-

Very low, we had, well,

1:18:59

we had a two or three news from the rest of the world.

1:19:02

We heard for instance,

1:19:09

accidentally of the death of Nelson Mandela.

1:19:10

And we heard that Francois Hollande had an affair

1:19:14

and was taken in "People's Magazine" with a mistress.

1:19:17

And that was hilarious.

1:19:24

Well, that was the demonstration

1:19:29

of their theory to them.

1:19:32

Your societies are just thinking,

1:19:41

well, it's just about fuck.

1:19:44

(Narrator laughs)

1:19:46

Your societies are totally corrupted.

1:19:49

We know that and this is why we fight you,

1:19:52

look at your president

1:19:55

and they were jubilating about that,

1:19:57

jubilating as you can say.

1:20:00

Can we get a short break, please?

1:20:02

Peter

Yes, let's take a short break absolutely.

1:20:03

-

Thank you.

1:20:05

Lady

There is water right there.

1:20:06

Peter

Before the break you mentioned Hollande

1:20:10

and the affair.

1:20:12

They were ridiculing Western society for that purpose.

1:20:13

That made me think, did you ever, did they have any women

1:20:19

in your presence at all at any time while you were there?

1:20:23

-

There were, I haven't seen any women in the group.

1:20:27

I know they have, because especially many jihadists

1:20:32

come travel to Syria and join ISSIS along with their family,

1:20:35

I heard some women captives

1:20:45

and I have seen few of them but of course

1:20:49

it was just from far.

1:20:53

Peter

But they didn't have women tempt you or to--

1:20:57

-

Not at all

1:21:00

Not at all.

1:21:03

They still try to stick to some bases of Islam,

1:21:08

including, well, especially this is a very strict reading

1:21:16

of Islam that they're having

1:21:21

that prohibits close contact between men

1:21:24

and women when they're are not relatives.

1:21:30

Peter

And another just a minute.

1:21:32

Cameraman

Okay, we're rolling.

1:21:34

Peter

Okay. One of the things that did happen

1:21:35

in people captive by the US government

1:21:40

was they were strip naked

1:21:43

and sometimes kept that way

1:21:45

or just kept in shorts in order to humiliate them.

1:21:48

Did that happen to captives again, in reaction

1:21:52

the same thing to show that they're like Guantanamo?

1:21:56

-

There has been very little of that, but I mean

1:22:02

it was somehow conflicting, I think for them,

1:22:07

because on one hand, this is, I mean, nudity is normal

1:22:11

for us exceptional but extremely shocking

1:22:19

for someone with an Arab or Muslim culture,

1:22:30

this the a reason for the fury that's followed

1:22:36

the release of the pictures of Abu Ghraib.

1:22:40

I mean, if the pictures of Abu Ghraib would have

1:22:45

shown torture with electricity or torture with beating

1:22:48

that would have been normal for an Arab

1:22:53

because this is what they are used to

1:22:55

but nudity is something like it's the worst

1:22:59

you inflict to someone.

1:23:04

So this is why it was so shocking to them.

1:23:07

And this is by the way, why I believe

1:23:10

that some Americans have used it

1:23:13

against some Guantanamo inmates

1:23:16

because it's one of the most powerful ways

1:23:19

they could humiliate them

1:23:24

but on the other hand, so I think it was a bit conflicting

1:23:27

to them because on one hand they wanted to revenge on that.

1:23:31

But on the other hand it was

1:23:35

so contradictory to their customs

1:23:44

that they could not do that.

1:23:46

So we had very little of that.

1:23:49

Peter

Was Abu Ghraib mentioned at all by them?

1:23:52

-

Potentially not.

1:23:55

I mean, amongst, we had a general some general preaches

1:24:00

about all the capabilities of the West

1:24:06

and all our guilts

1:24:10

and Abu Ghraib was yes, probably in that,

1:24:14

but it's already a bit old

1:24:20

and I don't have memory of that exact quote.

1:24:25

Peter

One of things that we were interested in is

1:24:31

if from ISIS wanted you to understand

1:24:34

that this is a reaction to Guantanamo,

1:24:39

do you see that in their publicity

1:24:41

other than the fact that the men who were behind it

1:24:44

were on jumpsuits, did ISIS promote that image

1:24:46

that Guantanamo informs the way they treat their captives?

1:24:51

-

I think that, yes,

1:25:07

it has to do with what they called a model jail

1:25:09

for VIP prisoners.

1:25:15

So they had a whole speech around that

1:25:17

that they say is they wanted us to be there

1:25:28

high value detainees and that they would handle us as such.

1:25:32

Peter

And they called you high value detainees?

1:25:39

What that says to you and you understanding it.

1:25:43

-

Yes.

1:25:46

Lou

Can I ask a more general question?

1:25:47

Peter

Go ahead, Lou.

1:25:49

Lou

In terms of their outreach materials,

1:25:50

the symbol of Guantanamo or the imagery of Guantanamo

1:25:54

is do you see it

1:26:00

in their online outreach materials to recruit new members?

1:26:01

-

I don't remember any mention of Guantanamo

1:26:12

in the Beacon, which is a main propaganda tour

1:26:15

but I'm sure that they are, I would have to do some research

1:26:23

on it.

1:26:26

It's probably worth to research on that.

1:26:27

Peter

And the model prison.

1:26:31

I never heard of that model prison till you told us

1:26:33

do you think that they promote that image outside

1:26:36

or that's how they just presented it to you?

1:26:39

-

This is only where they presented it to us,

1:26:43

they communicated very little

1:26:48

about us because most of us

1:26:51

were under blackout.

1:26:56

So only, for most of my fellow cellmates were released.

1:26:58

Our release was a discrete except for us

1:27:08

because our government made a big case about us

1:27:12

pertaining with the media.

1:27:19

Our case we had quite a high profile.

1:27:20

But for most of my former cellmates it was just

1:27:23

like a short news in the media.

1:27:29

Italian government announces as a release

1:27:34

of one of its citizens,

1:27:37

German government announces the release

1:27:38

of one of its citizens.

1:27:40

And that said if any and some of my former cellmates

1:27:42

were released with no one knowing it.

1:27:48

Peter

I mean, you probably don't wanna talk about it

1:27:57

on camera but since Johnny mentioned it,

1:28:00

do you know why you were released?

1:28:03

-

Why? Well, I'm not naive.

1:28:07

I've been traded

1:28:10

for something, I've been exchanged for something.

1:28:11

The only thing that I,

1:28:15

well, this I have to assume it because,

1:28:16

well it's not because I was kind to them

1:28:20

or I'm a nice smiles that eventually released me.

1:28:24

The only thing I know

1:28:33

for sure is what President Hollande told me

1:28:33

when I came back, when we arrived in Paris,

1:28:37

he told me France did not pay.

1:28:43

Peter

He told you that?

1:28:47

-

Yes. So does it means

1:28:48

that someone else did pay or that we have been exchanged

1:28:50

for something that was not monetary?

1:28:55

I don't know, but the only thing

1:28:57

I know I do for sure is that the money

1:28:59

if there were any money did not come from the government.

1:29:03

I would like to elaborate a bit on this issue

1:29:10

of share would negotiate for the release

1:29:15

of hostages taken by a terrorist organization.

1:29:18

I was myself, pretty much against any negotiation

1:29:23

up to the very minute I'd been taken.

1:29:27

So it's very easy.

1:29:29

And one must be very careful taking any position.

1:29:32

I believe a representative shall not make any statements

1:29:39

to the camera before his son is taken hostage

1:29:43

and such a serious issue.

1:29:51

And one must be very careful about

1:29:56

what is a public discourse as a public speech

1:30:02

and what happens in reality,

1:30:08

there is a trend to separate

1:30:11

between two countries,

1:30:18

two categories of countries,

1:30:20

you have the country that pay

1:30:22

and the countries that don't pay.

1:30:25

So you'd have something like the US,

1:30:28

the UK were very virtuous

1:30:31

and resilient and we refused to deal

1:30:33

and to make any concession to terrorist.

1:30:37

And you would have on the other hand

1:30:39

weak, all European countries who make concessions

1:30:43

and eventually finds themselves

1:30:49

in the position to fund terrorism.

1:30:51

It's not like this in reality, what is the reality?

1:30:54

Every time you have a hostage situation

1:30:59

you will have an assessment made

1:31:05

by his intelligence services and base administration

1:31:07

with a cost benefit ratio and consideration.

1:31:11

You will see, okay, what would it cost

1:31:18

to us to give the hostage takers

1:31:23

what they're asking for?

1:31:27

What would be the consequences in the regions,

1:31:29

local consequence for our allies

1:31:32

for the difference in the,

1:31:37

what differences would that do in the situation

1:31:40

and at the opposite

1:31:46

what would be the political cost

1:31:47

of not negotiating

1:31:51

and then there is an assessment for every single case.

1:31:55

And as a result of that if you look at the last 12 months

1:31:59

or so you can see that three Americans hostages,

1:32:04

two American Hostages have been released

1:32:08

after negotiations.

1:32:12

Peter

Really?

1:32:14

-

Yes, namely Sergeant Bergdahl in Afghanistan,

1:32:15

Tio Penos in Syria and a female Adi Walker in Nigeria.

1:32:23

And in the same time you have had two or is that two

1:32:30

or three, but several French hostages who have been killed

1:32:34

by the abductors.

1:32:39

So this is a perfect illustration

1:32:40

that you have to go above the public discourse.

1:32:42

Oh and the appearances that you have some countries

1:32:45

negotiating and some others not negotiating.

1:32:50

The reality is that you have a case by case assessment

1:32:53

and sometime it is possible to negotiate.

1:32:57

And sometime it is not.

1:33:01

And sometimes there will be negotiations

1:33:03

and sometimes I won't be any, and this is the reality.

1:33:05

Peter

And can you give us some indicators

1:33:14

on why some think it is more valuable to negotiate

1:33:16

and why not?

1:33:19

-

I mean, some hostages have a higher profile.

1:33:22

And sometime, I mean, at the time of my release

1:33:25

IS was not seen as such a threat to the west.

1:33:32

It was still seen as a local player

1:33:39

for limited extent, if I was taken today

1:33:43

or if I were still in their cells today

1:33:50

my fate would probably be different because IS

1:33:55

is not as willing to negotiate as it was at that time

1:33:58

because France entered a coalition against them.

1:34:03

And because the public opinion at the time of my release

1:34:07

it was more important to have, the motto,

1:34:13

"Bring our guys back, bring our guys home"

1:34:19

was more important that the motto,

1:34:22

"Well, make some concessions to this tourist."

1:34:25

But nowadays, especially after what happened, the ETA events

1:34:28

in January, 2015 in Paris and the attack

1:34:32

on Charlie Hebdo Newspaper.

1:34:36

Now, the public opinion has changed and would be very much

1:34:40

against any negotiations with a group.

1:34:43

So this is what I'm saying.

1:34:46

It's case per case.

1:34:48

It's every hostage situation has its own temporality

1:34:50

and depends on mood as a result of a multifactor assessment

1:34:55

and diverse country can take a very different decision

1:35:01

at another time, points in the time.

1:35:09

Peter

When you were released, had anybody been beheaded

1:35:14

before you were released just to get a timeframe for the--

1:35:16

-

When a hostage been killed.

1:35:20

Peter

One had been killed?

1:35:22

-

Yes.

1:35:23

-

Did you know that while you were...

1:35:24

-

Yes, they told us it was not public,

1:35:25

but they showed to us his picture

1:35:28

and they sent it to some of our relatives by email,

1:35:36

including my wife

1:35:41

his name was Sergey, was a Russian citizen,

1:35:43

his name was Sergey, he was a Russian citizen.

1:35:46

And his case has been disclosed by I think

1:35:51

an inquiry of news, the New York Times.

1:35:55

Peter

So at that time he was the only one

1:35:59

who had been killed?

1:36:01

-

Yes.

1:36:03

-

So the people who were killed after

1:36:04

came after you were released?

1:36:06

-

Yes.

1:36:08

I was released in May, in April

1:36:09

and the--

1:36:12

Peter

James Folly?

1:36:17

-

James Folly, it was end of August.

1:36:17

And the last one was Kayla Mula.

1:36:21

Who's death was revealed

1:36:24

I think last February was that, or March.

1:36:27

Peter

I saw it was a different time.

1:36:30

-

Yes.

1:36:32

-

Will you go back to Syria?

1:36:34

-

I have a family prohibition.

1:36:37

(Peter chuckles)

1:36:40

Peter

If Obama stopped using drones

1:36:42

or if Obama close Guantanamo, would that make a difference?

1:36:44

Do you think?

1:36:48

I'm very much a human rights oriented.

1:37:00

So I believe that the drones war

1:37:04

was to indiscriminate

1:37:10

and therefore are contra predictive, but this being said

1:37:14

I have had also opportunities to discuss

1:37:19

with security people

1:37:24

and peoples with experts in military issues.

1:37:26

And I do believe that some limited use of drones

1:37:30

but drone is still a weapon that can prove

1:37:37

its efficiency,

1:37:42

but it shall be limited.

1:37:47

It shall be extremely limited.

1:37:49

And the way it has been used so far

1:37:53

especially in Yemen only contributed to the destruction

1:37:56

of the Yemen State and afterwards as a country

1:37:59

because the Yemeni States lost all credibility

1:38:04

by allowing such killing campaign on its own soil.

1:38:08

It's also very challenging

1:38:16

for the both Pakistanians, Afghan governments.

1:38:17

I would not say that drones should be eradicated

1:38:25

from the weaponry,

1:38:31

but the use which has been made

1:38:34

especially by the CIA so far was a hugely counterproductive.

1:38:41

Peter

And they made that clear to you as you told us?

1:38:49

-

It's more my assessment as a witness of the war

1:38:52

of world affairs and after discussions with different

1:38:56

war experts, I would say,

1:39:05

on this field, looking at Guantanamo, it was only a mistake.

1:39:08

Has no justification

1:39:15

just like extraordinary renditions were known of very early,

1:39:17

as early as 2004

1:39:25

or three even, you have the first papers in the press

1:39:29

talking about them and revealing some details

1:39:34

of these renditions.

1:39:37

And this information have been used

1:39:40

for the propaganda of these Jihadists.

1:39:47

It's very difficult to tackle these issues

1:39:51

because when you address and when you raise publicly

1:39:56

the mistakes made by the West, in the war of terror

1:40:05

or when you challenge the war on terror

1:40:11

you will find many people in your own country saying

1:40:15

that you work for the other side, which is totally crazy.

1:40:20

I just aspire to a better world

1:40:27

living in peace and security for everyone

1:40:31

but security for everyone means also security

1:40:34

for the Syrian people in their streets

1:40:39

or the Yemeni people in their streets.

1:40:40

Even when they have a drone flying above the head.

1:40:43

Peter

If Guantanamo was closed

1:40:46

if Obama actually closes the Guantanamo

1:40:47

before he leaves office

1:40:50

which doesn't seem likely, but if it did happen

1:40:51

do you think that would make a difference to the crisis?

1:40:55

-

Yes.

1:41:01

Peter

You do?

1:41:01

-

Long-term one, a long-term difference.

1:41:02

Peter

What does that mean long-term difference?

1:41:06

-

It means if we weaken the propaganda.

1:41:07

When you fight to rhythm

1:41:11

most of the time if you fight it frontally

1:41:15

it will be ineffective.

1:41:22

Terrorism is like a swamp infested with frogs.

1:41:24

So let's say you have a swamp full of frogs.

1:41:30

One of the options is to take your gun,

1:41:36

take hay boots, go to the swamp and shoot every single frog.

1:41:40

It will take you a lot of time and you will have lots

1:41:47

of bullets, a lot of effort, a lot of resources

1:41:52

and you will have a swamp full of bullets at the end.

1:41:54

And I'm not even sure let's guess.

1:41:58

Can you tell me if you try

1:42:01

you can succeed to kill every single in a swamp?

1:42:03

So the other solution is to go at the source

1:42:06

and dry up the swamp.

1:42:10

So the best way let's say you have terrorism here,

1:42:14

either you confront it directly currently

1:42:17

and most of the time the bullets will go back at you.

1:42:23

Or you're just circumvent it and dry it out.

1:42:28

Especially on the,

1:42:37

by drying out all of its propaganda arguments.

1:42:41

And instead of that extraordinary rendition of war

1:42:46

on terror, invasion of Iraq, invasion of Afghanistan,

1:42:49

Guantanamo, all these are weapons of recruitment for them

1:42:52

and we provided them to them.

1:42:59

Peter

Lou, did you wanna follow up on something?

1:43:04

Lou

No, just go ahead.

1:43:11

Peter

Johnny Did you?

1:43:11

Johnny

Go ahead, I think I'm good.

1:43:13

Peter

So I think you just said it

1:43:15

but as we close any advice or follow up

1:43:18

that you'd like to share

1:43:22

with the audience for the future and that I didn't

1:43:23

or maybe I didn't ask you that you would just like to share?

1:43:26

You kind of just said it, but if you want?

1:43:31

-

Yeah.

1:43:34

I have a very important message to the world.

1:43:35

Peter

Let's hear it.

1:43:37

-

In three words, read my book.

1:43:38

(Panelists laughs)

1:43:41

It would be Jihad Academy and it would be released

1:43:46

in the States in January 16.

1:43:49

Peter

January 16

1:43:52

-

Yeah.

1:43:53

Peter

In French is it coming out soon?

1:43:54

-

It came out last March already.

1:43:57

Peter

Oh.

1:44:00

-

Already in France.

1:44:01

Lou

And who's the publisher?

1:44:02

-

It's Bloomsbury in for the English version.

1:44:03

And I going to launch the Arabic version end of October

1:44:07

in Beirut and the English version in the UK, early November.

1:44:10

Peter

Oh, and you'll tour.

1:44:16

So yeah, we, we can--

1:44:18

-

Its pretty much, what I told you during this interview,

1:44:20

is developed in this book.

1:44:28

So I would be very happy to send you a copy each.

1:44:32

Peter

I would love to have her copy selling by you.

1:44:35

-

I hope that you come to San Francisco for that.

1:44:38

Will definitely hold it.

1:44:43

If you come we'll definitely hold something

1:44:44

for you at the law school.

1:44:46

-

Cool.

1:44:49

Peter

So nothing else, we will adorn.

1:44:50

-

Okay. We need 20 seconds of a room tone.

1:44:52

Yes. Okay, go ahead.

1:44:58

Cameraman

Okay, begin room tone.

1:45:00

End room tone.

1:45:16

Hénin, Nicolas - Interview master file

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