Edney, Dennis - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

-

Morning.

0:05

Peter

We are very grateful to you,

0:06

for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:07

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:12

and involvement with the detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:14

And we are hoping to provide you with an opportunity

0:19

to tell you a story in your own words.

0:22

And we are creating an archive of stories,

0:25

so that people in America, and around the world,

0:27

will have a better understanding

0:30

of what you, and others, have experienced and observed.

0:31

Future generations must know what happened in Guantanamo,

0:36

and by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:39

We appreciate your courage,

0:43

and willingness to speak with us today.

0:44

And if anytime during the interview,

0:47

you'd like to take a break, let us know,

0:48

and anything you say you'd like us to redact,

0:51

we can do that too.

0:53

And we'd like to begin

0:55

with some general information as to your name,

0:57

and your country of origin, and your hometown.

1:01

Maybe you could start with adding birth-date and age.

1:06

-

Sure, my name is Dennis Edney.

1:08

I was born in Dundee, Scotland.

1:11

I left Britain to come to Canada over 25 years ago,

1:15

when and I fell in love with a Canadian woman,

1:22

and she says that I always talk about falling in love

1:25

like it's a disease,

1:28

but that disease led me to Canada, where we have a family.

1:30

I've two boys, Kevin, who's 21 years of age,

1:34

and Duncan, who is 16 years of age.

1:38

Peter

And your age?

1:42

-

I'm 65 years of age.

1:44

Peter

And what year were you born?

1:46

-

19th of December, 1946.

1:47

Peter

And where do you live now?

1:51

-

I live in Edmonton, Alberta.

1:52

Peter

And what, could you give us a little background

1:55

on your education?

1:57

-

I have a law degree.

1:59

Peter

From England?

2:02

-

From England.

2:03

I practice in Canada, and also extra-territorially.

2:06

I started off as a general practitioner.

2:14

I enjoyed, I've long enjoyed criminal law.

2:17

I've long enjoyed, you can't be a good criminal lawyer,

2:21

if you don't know constitutional law,

2:24

and so I've intertwined

2:26

both of those of those disciplines together,

2:28

and that's really my focus,

2:31

criminal law and constitutional law.

2:32

Peter

Well then, maybe you can tell us a little bit

2:35

about how you got involved in representing Omar Khadr

2:36

and, how about that?

2:41

-

I believe in 2003, Michael Ratner contacted me,

2:47

from the Center of Constitutional Law in New York.

2:51

And he was looking for, at that time,

2:56

he was putting together, with foreign and American lawyers

2:59

to challenge the Bush administration's war on terror.

3:05

And he was looking for all types of challenges,

3:10

that could be made.

3:14

But in particular, what he wanted me to do,

3:15

was to file an amicus brief on behalf of Omar Khadr,

3:18

in the looming case of Rasul vs Bush,

3:24

that was going to be heard

3:28

before the Supreme Court of the United States.

3:30

And so, I would be representing the Canadian perspective,

3:33

before the Supreme Court.

3:36

Peter

I need to back up then.

3:38

How did Michael have the know to call you?

3:39

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I'm not sure how Michael knew me.

3:45

I had done a number of landmark cases

3:48

at the Canadian Supreme Court.

3:51

I was only in Canada two or three years,

3:54

before I did my first landmark Supreme Court case.

3:57

I have a name for doing difficult cases.

4:01

I presume that someone simply just gave him my name.

4:05

I presume that, I make that presumption.

4:09

I never asked him.

4:13

Peter

And before then, am I right to say,

4:15

you didn't have much of an interest in Guantanamo,

4:18

were you following it or?

4:19

-

I knew very little about Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

4:23

When Michael Ratner mentioned.

4:27

Stop for a second, we have to start again actually, but.

4:32

I don't want to complicate the story,

4:38

but there's a confusion, somewhere in my mind.

4:42

I was contacted I think, by Michael Ratner,

4:44

at first about a Canadian detainee,

4:48

who wasn't Omar Khadr.

4:52

There's never been any evidence

4:54

that was a Canadian in Guantanamo, other Omar Khadr.

4:56

There was, in fact, I got contacted last year

5:00

by somebody from the New York Times,

5:04

and then it went nowhere.

5:06

So there was a Canadian who disappeared.

5:08

So, I think Ratner contacted me

5:10

about representing that Canadian,

5:15

and in the course of conversations about fighting for Rasul,

5:17

and Rasul vs Bush,

5:20

it was then we had Omar Khadr came on the scene.

5:22

So, maybe we'll start again.

5:26

Peter

Sure.

5:27

-

I'll try and think about that.

5:28

Peter

Well, do you, do you wanna start a new one?

5:31

-

Okay.

5:34

My involvement in Guantanamo I think,

5:39

stretches back in my recollection to 2002,

5:45

where I'd been approached by the Khadr family

5:50

about their son Omar Khadr.

5:53

And then at some point, I was contacted by Michael Ratner

5:58

from the Center of Constitutional Law in New York

6:03

and there had been some discussion

6:07

about representing another Canadian

6:09

outside of Omar Khadr.

6:14

That went nowhere, but at the end of the day,

6:16

Michael Ratner wished me, and my co-counsel Nate Whitling,

6:20

to file an amicus brief

6:25

before the Supreme Court of the United States,

6:27

in the pending case of Rasul vs Bush.

6:30

And the purpose of that was,

6:33

he had been putting together a collective of lawyers

6:35

both foreign and American, to challenge the War on Terror.

6:38

And so, we would be arguing the international law

6:43

from the Canadian perspective.

6:48

Peter

So, can I clarify?

6:51

You say there was rumors there was another Canadian

6:54

and there actually was not,

6:57

or there was another Canadian man who disappeared?

6:58

What do you (indistinct)

7:01

-

For years,

I kept my eyes and ears open,

7:03

for the slightest bit of information

7:06

about this unknown Canadian.

7:08

And by that, I don't mean Omar Khadr.

7:11

And at, there was a couple of times,

7:14

I got a little bit of a sniff, in Guantanamo,

7:17

but nothing ever worked out.

7:19

And so, I came to the conclusion that,

7:23

there was either a Canadian that was there

7:28

but I had no proof of that or there wasn't

7:31

and I just moved on with my life.

7:33

And then last year, I was approached by a journalist,

7:36

who was quite excited to speak to me,

7:39

asked me not to mention, that's his name

7:43

and this was a very privileged discussion,

7:47

and it dealt with the fact that he had evidence

7:50

that there had been a Canadian in Guantanamo Bay.

7:54

He gave me information about this particular Canadian

7:58

in Guantanamo Bay, and he was going to get back to me

8:02

and he never got back to me.

8:06

And I have contacted him, and he has never followed through.

8:08

Peter

Can you tell us the name of the Canadian?

8:12

-

I can't.

8:14

Peter

Not the man who contacted you,

8:15

the name of the detainee?

8:17

-

No.

8:18

Peter

No?

Okay.

8:19

-

I'm sorry.

Peter

The name of the detainee,

8:20

can you give.

8:22

-

I can't tell you that.

Peter

Can you tell us

8:25

why the Khadr family contacted you, and how you responded

8:26

before you said they contacted before Ratner did?

8:29

-

I've been asked that question a million times

8:32

and I'm not sure.

8:36

The way law practices work,

8:39

is that people pass your name on

8:43

they exaggerate your experience.

8:44

I have clients who are in jail

8:47

who will pass my name onto someone else

8:49

and he's the greatest lawyer in the world, and I'm not.

8:52

But you know, that's how you get clients.

8:56

I certainly am associated and well-known

8:59

in the Muslim community, in Toronto.

9:01

And so, I'm sure they were desperate for any lawyer,

9:04

I have a name for being,

9:08

I'm known for doing difficult cases.

9:10

The Court of Appeal of Alberta once noted that, in a case.

9:12

And so perhaps, the fact that I'm a Scottish fighter,

9:18

seems to resonate in different areas.

9:22

Peter

So how did you respond

9:25

when the Khadr family contacted you?

9:26

-

I went to meet them.

9:30

Before I went to meet them, I thought I'd better read up

9:32

about this place called Guantanamo Bay.

9:35

And as I read about Guantanamo, as I went on Google,

9:38

as I phoned back to Michael Ratner,

9:43

as I started to develop some understanding of Guantanamo,

9:46

it didn't make sense to me,

9:49

that we would be abandoning the rule of law.

9:51

And once it hit me, that this is a reality,

9:56

I then caught a plane to Toronto.

10:00

And Michael had contacted me

10:05

at a particular junction of my life.

10:07

I had just finished a full year organized crime trial,

10:10

the first in the history of Canada

10:14

and successfully at that.

10:16

And so, I had a little bit of time.

10:18

I also had a bit of money in my pocket.

10:21

It was probably,

10:24

I better be careful that Revenue Canada are not listening,

10:27

but it was probably the finest financially-rewarding case

10:29

I had done.

10:33

And so, I got on the plane to.

10:34

Peter

Toronto.

10:39

-

Toronto, spoke with the Khadrs,

10:39

spoke with the grandmother.

10:41

I liked the grandmother, and I liked the grandfather.

10:43

And based on that, I decided to take the case on.

10:49

And so, I went to court

10:53

and had the court give me authority to represent Omar Khadr

10:56

because I had the grandparents prepared to have me do so.

10:59

At that time,

11:05

the rest of the Khadr family were living in Pakistan,

11:07

and they had, and so they were out of the loop

11:11

at that time.

11:15

Peter

What about Abdullah,

11:18

was he in Guantanamo at that time

11:19

or where was.

11:22

-

Abdullah,

Abdullah's never been in Guantanamo.

11:23

Abdullah was in Pakistan and Afghanistan,

11:26

he worked alongside his father.

11:32

He was the guy who helped to bring money for the schools,

11:36

and the orphanages and hospitals that they ran

11:39

in Afghanistan, and so he had never been there.

11:41

But, his, the second oldest brother, Abdurahman,

11:46

had been in Guantanamo, and he'd been in Guantanamo Bay

11:51

for, I'll make it up six weeks.

11:54

And he was planted there by the Americans,

11:58

and his job was to ingratiate himself with the prisoners

12:01

and to provide any information about them to the Americans.

12:08

But Guantanamo Bay got to him quite quickly

12:14

as it does to anyone.

12:18

I remember Michelle Shephard,

12:20

who has written a book about Guantanamo Bay,

12:22

and Omar Khadr, who has been goin' there

12:27

from almost from day one as a journalist,

12:30

has always said that,

12:34

two or three days in Guantanamo is enough

12:36

and it takes you weeks to get over it.

12:38

And so obviously, it got to Abdurahman,

12:40

and Abdurahman never met Omar when he was in Guantanamo.

12:45

(clears throat)

12:51

And Abdurahman then, after the six weeks,

12:52

the CIA took him out of Guantanamo,

12:55

and then sent him off into Europe

13:00

to do some spying for them.

13:02

Peter

Did people know, or did people suspect

13:05

that he was a spy while he was in Guantanamo?

13:08

-

I don't know.

13:13

But I'd be surprised if they didn't.

13:15

When you're locked there, the jungle,

13:18

the jungle wavelengths are so sophisticated.

13:22

Peter

When was he there, do you know about the time?

13:25

-

He was there roundabout, I'm guessing, 2004,

13:29

2005.

13:35

Peter

Okay.

-

The early days.

13:37

Peter

So going back, when you represented Omar Khadr,

13:39

through the grandparents,

13:44

did you feel you need to fly to Pakistan

13:45

to meet the family or?

13:47

-

No, no.

What I did, was I quite naively thought I'd just communicate

13:50

with my government and see how they can help me.

13:57

And so, I started this pen-pal relationship

14:03

with the Canadian government.

14:05

And after a while, my writing hand became quite sore

14:08

because the number of letters that I wrote,

14:13

and the very few responses I received,

14:16

and this was the liberal government at the time,

14:20

became frustrating.

14:23

And like all governments,

14:25

and the liberal government had come into power,

14:27

saying that we're going to be transparent

14:32

and open with its citizens.

14:35

And so, relying upon that,

14:37

I thought they would be transparent and open.

14:38

But every time under the Freedom of Information Act,

14:41

that I wrote a letter, it was denied.

14:43

And when I pushed it further,

14:46

I was challenged by claims of privilege

14:49

without any sort of expansion on what particular privilege

14:54

they're claiming.

14:58

And so, I recall thinking, what do I do?

15:01

Because I don't recall

15:06

ever making a Freedom of Information application up

15:07

until I became involved with Omar Khadr.

15:09

And so, like an ordinary citizen, what I could do,

15:13

is believe that my government was making a decision

15:15

in the best interests of the Canadian people,

15:18

by telling me that I just can't get that information,

15:21

'cause they know better.

15:24

Or I could look at the amount of refusals,

15:26

with very little information about why I'm being refused,

15:30

and when I look at the quality of the questions

15:34

I was asking which wasn't asking

15:37

for National Security disclosure.

15:39

So, I then chose to spend my own money to challenge that.

15:42

And so I challenged for information about Omar Khadr

15:47

in the hands of the Americans.

15:53

And that challenge took five years.

15:55

It went up to the Supreme Court of Canada.

15:59

And along the way,

16:02

I had read the statements made by liberal politicians,

16:04

by Anne McLellan, the Deputy Minister of Canada at the time,

16:09

someone I knew well,

16:16

someone who taught at the law faculties in Edmonton,

16:18

and someone who wouldn't even allow me

16:23

to make an appointment at her office.

16:26

And at the end of the day,

16:29

having kept all those editorials,

16:32

and all those comments by various liberal politicians,

16:34

as to why I was seeking out information

16:37

and the disingenuous responses from the government,

16:42

the Supreme Court of Canada said that,

16:47

that all Canada had been doing all along

16:49

for the last five years in refusing to provide disclosure,

16:52

was to cover up it's egregious misconduct in Guantanamo Bay.

16:55

And the Supreme Court found that the United States

17:00

had breached the Geneva Conventions,

17:05

the Convention on the International Treaty on Torture,

17:09

and that Canada had been complicit in that torture.

17:12

A brave decision, by the Supreme Court,

17:16

the only Western court

17:19

that challenged the US administration,

17:22

in Guantanamo Bay and Guantanamo Bay.

17:26

Supreme Court said that we cannot adhere to the jurisdiction

17:29

of another nation when that other nation has a place

17:34

called Guantanamo Bay that's beyond the rule of law.

17:38

And to adhere to that jurisdiction,

17:41

would put us in contradiction

17:45

with our international obligations.

17:47

Peter

Well, what were you thinking, for all this?

17:50

It's, I mean, we kind of know about the decision,

17:52

but what was your attitude changing about Canada,

17:54

or about the rule of law or about,

17:57

were you're hitting your head against the wall

18:00

and wondering why you were getting no response?

18:01

What was going on with you?

18:04

-

Well, I think,

18:06

after that, before I tell you that.

18:09

After that, we went back to the Supreme Court again

18:10

on another landmark ruling.

18:13

And what we did was, based upon the disclosure

18:16

that we had been provided by the Canadian Supreme Court,

18:19

we were able to determine

18:23

that Omar Khadr had been interrogated by Canadian personnel,

18:26

by Canadian intelligence officials,

18:32

and been interrogated well-knowing

18:35

that Omar Khadr had been softened-up, for their arrival.

18:38

And that was, he'd been in a sleep-deprivation program,

18:43

where for three-week periods at a time,

18:47

that he would be wakened and moved every three hours.

18:50

And that's to soften you up.

18:56

And when you get interviewed, by whether it's the CIA,

18:58

or whether it's by Canada.

19:01

Peter

How did you know that?

19:04

-

We knew that, from the disclosure that we received,

19:09

that Canadians had gone over, and worked with the Americans.

19:12

We knew also from the disclosure that we had received,

19:17

that Canada had been refused

19:20

to allow its Consular representatives

19:25

to get into Guantanamo Bay,

19:27

but the Americans would agree

19:29

to an intelligence-sharing process of having CSIS

19:31

or the Canadian intelligence agency

19:37

send someone into Guantanamo.

19:38

We also, because of the network that we belong to,

19:42

we constantly were in communication with Michael Ratner,

19:46

in his office,

19:50

were in communication with our habeas counsel,

19:51

in the States.

19:54

We learned about what was called the frequent flyer program.

19:56

And the frequent flyer program as you know,

20:00

is where people like Omar prior to being questioned,

20:02

and given a confessional statement

20:10

about how bad they are sleep-deprived.

20:11

And that interested me

20:16

because I recall reading a Supreme Court case,

20:17

from the Israeli Supreme Court,

20:21

where the Chief Justice had said, at one point in time,

20:25

that there's no more effective torture-tool

20:28

than sleep-deprivation.

20:31

And so knowing that, we asked then the American government

20:35

for the tapes, the video tapes and the audio tapes

20:42

that they'd had of this interview.

20:46

Even though we're just guessing.

20:48

I'm an expert in getting disclosure,

20:50

if there's anything I'm good at,

20:51

and my first major challenge,

20:53

in the Supreme Court of Canada,

20:56

is disclosure, disclosure, disclosure.

20:57

If you're not a lawyer,

20:59

you can't do anything without disclosure.

21:00

And so, the American is denied that.

21:02

In fact, I think one of the comments was,

21:05

when we were pushing it more and more,

21:07

said "We can't locate."

21:09

And so, I remember thinking about this and one day

21:13

walking through the street,

21:15

I thought, if they haven't got it, Canada has it.

21:16

They have a copy, shared information, why not?

21:20

And so, part of my disclosure application then,

21:26

under the Freedom of Information,

21:30

that means we're up to the Supreme Court in Canada.

21:31

One was asking, particularly for those videos.

21:34

And then, we suddenly got the videos,

21:38

and there we have the first ever video,

21:42

only video of an interrogation that took place

21:45

of Omar Khadr.

21:48

And I remember looking at this videos,

21:50

I remember seeing this young boy crying out for his mommy,

21:53

a Taliban warrior crying for his mommy.

21:57

I was shocked.

22:02

And so, after we went through all that disclosure,

22:04

within two years later,

22:09

we were back before the Supreme Court,

22:11

and I argued before the Supreme Court

22:13

that I knew that Omar Khadr's chartered rights,

22:16

his constitutional rights had been breached,

22:19

and that there should be a remedy.

22:22

And that remedy has to be relevant.

22:25

There was no point in giving Omar Khadr money,

22:30

he's never going to see it.

22:32

And so, we demanded that the Supreme Court order Canada

22:34

to request, not to tell 'cause you can't tell

22:40

a foreign jurisdiction what to do, but you can request.

22:43

To request repatriation of Omar Khadr.

22:46

And if the Americans refuse to do so,

22:50

which we assumed that would happen,

22:53

then, that remedy was ineffective,

22:56

and then the court

23:00

should come up with other types of remedies,

23:00

and we'd have the Supreme Court,

23:03

and we'd have the Canadian government

23:05

going around in a circle.

23:07

Well, in the argument before Justice McLaughlin,

23:09

in the Supreme Court,

23:13

she kept saying things like,

23:19

"Show me, Mr. Edney, how I cross that bridge,

23:20

to order the government, to make a request."

23:23

And I said, well, I always understood

23:28

one of the core principles of law is no man's above the law,

23:33

no government's above the law,

23:36

and you're there to ensure that.

23:38

And she said, "Well, what about a declaration?"

23:40

I said, Why a declaration?

23:43

This government will not listen to a declaration.

23:45

This government has fought us every step of the way.

23:48

We've been fighting now six years solid,

23:52

almost giving up our law practices,

23:55

and certainly using our financial savings

23:57

to get where we are.

24:00

They're not going to listen.

24:01

And so, the Supreme Court then ordered, made a declaration

24:03

that Canada should request.

24:08

And of course, within, I think, within a week,

24:13

our Canadian government, our new Canadian government,

24:16

and the conservative government, just said,

24:19

"Sorry, we're not gonna to do it".

24:23

And of course, there were editorial throughout the country,

24:25

talking about constitutional crisis,

24:28

between the government and the Supreme Court.

24:30

Well, that did not resonate with the Canadian people,

24:33

nor did it resonate with the fact that our government

24:36

had trespassed upon our good reputations

24:40

by being involved in torture.

24:43

And, because I'm coming to your question,

24:46

I haven't lost track of your question.

24:49

When I also came out of Rasul vs Bush,

24:51

I remember how happy we all felt.

24:55

It was one of the most privileged moments

24:58

of my legal career.

25:00

And I think there were 14 amici briefs from all over.

25:03

And they are wonderful to read,

25:10

and they were not people

25:14

who were professional human rights lawyers.

25:16

There were from the establishment.

25:20

In fact, one of the most profound

25:22

was the military's lawyer's brief,

25:25

where they said that they had no,

25:27

essentially were saying to the Bush administration,

25:29

we have no faith in you upholding the rule of law.

25:31

We need a court, we need the Supreme Court

25:34

to be able to oversee

25:37

the unbridled power of a government.

25:40

And so, I recall looking around me

25:43

and we were drinking champagne

25:46

not far from the White House,

25:47

not far from the Supreme Court that afternoon,

25:48

and I think we all felt, job well done.

25:51

Well, it certainly was a temporary job well done

25:56

because in 2006, the military commissioner came out

26:00

and gave former president Bush everything he'd asked for

26:03

and more, and then took away the habeas rights

26:07

once again from these detainees.

26:11

So, when I've looked at my journey,

26:14

and to answer your question, do I see the rule of law?

26:16

Well, I've always believed naively,

26:20

I'm quite naive, I'm quite passionate.

26:23

I will fight, and fight, and fight on the ultimate belief,

26:26

that law will prevail.

26:30

I've always looked to follow the rule of law,

26:31

as a wonderful control of excessive power.

26:34

It's nothing to be frightened of.

26:40

It's there for you and I, the man in the street.

26:41

If people could grasp that, the power of law.

26:45

I tell people, I'm a powerful guy, I take on countries,

26:48

except there's a limit to that power.

26:54

There's a limit to the power of law in my view today

26:56

because politics appears to have trumped that.

27:00

And politics has trumped the rule of law and been assisted

27:04

by the apathy of people.

27:10

Whether it's from Canada, or whether it's America.

27:14

In fact, I see the apathy,

27:18

as someone who spends a fair bit of time in Europe,

27:20

much less in Europe.

27:24

I'm excited when I go to Europe,

27:25

I'm excited when I go down into South America.

27:26

I'm not excited in North America.

27:30

We have bought into the propaganda of fear,

27:33

the fear of, and I'm just tired of listening to people

27:39

talk about safety, I think it's a vanity.

27:43

Who said you should be safe?

27:48

Who said you're, how do we protect you from some person

27:50

running you over crossing the road?

27:54

All you can do is put in,

27:56

ensure there're rules and regulations in place

27:59

to make sure that speeding car doesn't speed,

28:01

down that road.

28:04

Or to put in place rules and constrictions on government.

28:05

So, where am I today?

28:09

You know I'm today saying, I'm not a happy camper

28:11

in North America.

28:16

And I recall a funny anecdote of that.

28:18

After Rasul versus Bush,

28:22

when we were all drinking champagne,

28:25

in some house close to the White House,

28:28

Clive Stafford Smith's wife,

28:35

said that she was never going to have any more sex with him,

28:39

until they left this country, and went over to Europe.

28:43

And that's what they did.

28:47

Peter

Yeah, he's there now.

28:50

So, can you tell us a bit about Omar,

28:51

even though many of us know

28:54

just since this tape might be watched 50 years from now,

28:56

and people might have not the information,

29:02

can you tell us little bit about Omar and his family

29:04

just from your perspective?

29:06

-

I'll tell you Omar first.

29:10

Peter

Okay.

29:12

-

Omar went to Guantanamo Bay when he was 15.

29:14

And I remember saying to Omar,

29:18

Well, why didn't you run away from your father

29:20

or your mother, as soon you could?

29:22

And he said, "Well, I'm in the mountains of Pakistan,

29:25

where do I run to?

29:31

I'm in Afghanistan, under the control of other people,

29:33

where do I run to?

29:37

And if I had to, if I ran to another village,

29:38

I probably would be killed.

29:40

Because for them to help me,

29:42

would have been to insult my father."

29:45

And so, Omar Khadr ends up his father drops him off

29:49

at a house and says, "I'll pick you up later."

29:53

And in that house, you have Taliban warriors.

29:55

As Omar was saying, not to fight the Americans,

29:58

to fight the Northern Alliance.

30:02

And he was only there a short period of time.

30:05

And it gets attacked.

30:08

And I recall the evidence being given at the trial

30:10

regarding that attack on the compound.

30:15

And all the nonsense that I've heard by various public

30:22

that Omar Khadr was given the opportunity to leave,

30:27

that's a bunch of nonsense.

30:29

So, he was caught up in something,

30:32

and he suffered very badly.

30:33

He suffered so badly,

30:35

that I had a call when I first met him.

30:38

I had a call finally getting to Guantanamo Bay

30:41

after the years of fighting.

30:44

After years trying to work your way through all the nonsense

30:47

of Guantanamo, Guantanamo military lawyers,

30:50

it's just a complete corrupt process.

30:56

In fact, if I may come back, I've related,

31:00

if we get to trial, I would say to you,

31:03

that who I am, today, is a sad man,

31:05

because I walked out of that Guantanamo trial quite shamed.

31:08

Because if those military lawyers were doing their best,

31:12

it's not what I would call best.

31:15

They lacked, they seemed to misunderstand

31:19

their responsibility to the client,

31:23

and they seemed to have a lack of a great lethargy

31:26

in doing any work for the trial.

31:29

Peter

I would like to get into that.

31:33

-

But coming back, I remember finally getting to Guantanamo,

31:34

I'm on a plane with Nate, and I'm full of myself.

31:39

Peter

Do you know what year that is?

31:43

-

It's 2012,

31:47

I'd say six years ago.

31:50

And I remember saying, Nate, we got in.

31:54

I like winning.

31:58

And we go into Guantanamo Bay, and I just so excited,

32:00

and here's all these security processes we go through,

32:03

security lectures, information such as,

32:07

that one of the reasons why we tape every conversation

32:12

you have with your client, because, unbeknown to you,

32:14

he may be passing on information to you,

32:17

that you're just not sophisticated enough to pick up,

32:20

and you'll pass it on to some stranger

32:22

when you go for a coffee, in San Francisco.

32:24

And then I finally got to see Omar,

32:28

and he wasn't in any of the cages.

32:31

Because Guantanamo Bay is about secret prisons.

32:34

You see the general public see the cages,

32:40

but there are three secret prisons in Guantanamo Bay.

32:45

Camp 2, Camp 3 and Camp 7.

32:48

And Camp 7 you don't talk about.

32:53

You're not even allowed to mention that number.

32:54

And Omar Khadr, since the age of 15,

32:57

has been in both Camp 2 and Camp 3.

32:59

And I remember going into the cell,

33:04

and at that time, we were able to get into the prison.

33:09

Right into the prison.

33:12

It was dark, and somber,

33:13

and some of the toughest, most fit-looking guards

33:15

you could find.

33:17

It's a concrete edifice,

33:18

with some air-conditioning on the roof, no windows.

33:21

And Omar Khadr's cell has no windows,

33:25

just fluorescent lights.

33:32

And I had been told, he hadn't spoke to anybody for months.

33:36

And I walked into that cell,

33:41

and it changed me.

33:46

I remember the shock of seeing a young man,

33:51

sitting in a cold cell and they keep it cold,

33:56

because it makes you uncomfortable.

34:01

And he looked like a broken bird.

34:04

He was, sort of, huddled like this, just shivering.

34:09

He just looked like a broken bird.

34:13

He looked so fragile,

34:19

and his body was damaged all over.

34:21

He's blind in one eye,

34:24

he's going blind in the other eye.

34:26

He'll be completely blind in a few years.

34:27

He was all kinds of wounds,

34:30

and shrapnel wounds in particular.

34:37

What happens with shrapnel,

34:40

it eventually comes to the surface,

34:42

so you've always got pus flowing out.

34:43

He has, he was shot twice he says, three times in the back,

34:48

and so, he has these big gaping scars

34:56

and he has no power on his right hand.

35:00

And I went in there as a lawyer.

35:04

The cocky lawyer, the courageous lawyer,

35:07

the full-of-himself lawyer.

35:12

And when I saw that young man, I thought of myself,

35:17

I'm a father, and we can allow that to go on.

35:20

I was angry.

35:28

Peter

Was he getting any medical care?

35:32

-

Poor medical care.

35:34

In fact, medical care,

35:36

what I would do quite often after I left Guantanamo Bay,

35:38

and I've spoken to the media forever.

35:41

I'm an expert speaking to medias.

35:43

I would challenge the Canadian government

35:46

to refute my allegation

35:50

that they have never seen Omar Khadr's medical records.

35:51

I've never seen his medical records.

35:55

And Omar Khadr would complain about treatment,

35:59

the lack of treatment.

36:01

Obviously a lack of treatment.

36:03

We don't keep children in conditions like this.

36:06

And, at that time,

36:10

he wasn't getting at any expert attention to his eyes,

36:11

and I still don't know the extent of the treatment

36:15

he's received for his eyes.

36:17

So, when I left, so that was Omar Khadr.

36:19

And how did I communicate with him?

36:23

I spoke at him.

36:26

As a Scot, I'm not shy in talking

36:28

and he wouldn't answer me.

36:32

Just sat there and looked at me.

36:34

And I talked to him, and we had two days.

36:37

I talked at him, and I wasn't getting anywhere.

36:41

And the story I tell, was at some point,

36:46

I thought I'm gonna have to leave gotta be leaving here,

36:48

having failed to reach this young boy.

36:53

And I remember pulling out my wallet.

36:57

And, it was fascinating,

36:59

I was allowed to come in with my wallet.

37:03

And my wallet, then, was attractive to him,

37:05

because he had never, he had nothing,

37:09

he had no materials before him.

37:11

His life had just, was in a vacuum in that cell.

37:12

And so, I pulled out hockey pictures

37:17

of my youngest boy, Duncan,

37:20

and I passed it to him,

37:23

and he took it, and he started feeling the paper.

37:24

Just liked like the feel of the paper.

37:28

And it was at that point in time,

37:30

that Omar Khadr decided to speak to me.

37:33

Now I've told that story a number of times,

37:37

at least not for a long time,

37:39

but I've told that a number of times in the past.

37:41

And so, and I'm sure the audience thinks,

37:46

What a wonderful man, he was able to reach this young boy.

37:50

I don't see it that way.

37:55

I don't see that I brought him gave me anything good.

37:58

He may have been better

38:02

to remain in the recesses of his mind,

38:03

than to face the reality, the everyday reality

38:06

of what Guantanamo Bay consists of.

38:09

He is now 25 years of age.

38:14

So, when we talk about Rasul and Bush,

38:17

and I pontificate about my landmark legal challenges.

38:19

What have I done, just, it's that French expression,

38:24

the more things change, the more things stay the same.

38:27

We're still at the same spot we were in 2004,

38:30

and he's still in Guantanamo,

38:34

and there're about 170 detainees still there.

38:36

Peter

So how did it change you

38:40

when you left after those two days?

38:41

You said it changed you.

38:44

-

Forever I said to Omar Khadr,

38:46

I will get you out of here.

38:49

And I've always been, to Omar Khadr,

38:52

a larger-than-life individual.

38:54

I am not scared to challenge guards.

38:58

I don't, we used to have, he used to have a laugh

39:01

at the beginning, because when I never have gone

39:03

to meet Omar Khadr without a collar and tie on, and a suit.

39:06

I'm a lawyer, he's my client.

39:11

And so, from the early days,

39:14

I'd be left out in the sunshine,

39:16

in 90, 100 degree temperatures for hours.

39:18

Reminds me of some movie I saw years ago,

39:22

so I'd be covered in sweat,

39:25

and of course, my white features would be just rosy red.

39:28

And then, and Omar would be waiting for me,

39:34

they'd get him up four in the morning to meet with me,

39:37

so, they made sure that he was unhappy when he saw me,

39:39

because I wouldn't get in 'til the afternoon,

39:42

and he'd be sitting there, for 10 hours.

39:45

And so when I got in,

39:48

I've just be looking like I came out of a shower.

39:49

And so, when I, and any time I had met Omar

39:52

other than in the courtroom, it's like you and I right now.

39:56

There's a table here, or I pull the table away,

40:00

I move, Omar's sitting on a chair,

40:03

and he's chained to the floor.

40:06

I've never seen him walk.

40:07

All those years.

40:09

And then, I pulled my chair close to him,

40:11

and then I did what I do with my kids, I touch him.

40:14

All the time.

40:17

And over the years, he plays with my watch,

40:19

which I told him he would get, when he gets out.

40:22

And I've talked about hope.

40:25

And then it, and that hope was,

40:32

you will get out of here.

40:38

And then, I did a deal.

40:42

We'll talk later when you bring it on about the trial.

40:48

But eventually, we did a deal that Omar would be home

40:54

in a year.

40:58

And in July of this year, then I flew out to see Omar

41:00

for two weeks in Guantanamo.

41:02

And let me tell you, when your audience

41:05

looks at this years down the road,

41:09

two weeks is like a lifetime out there.

41:11

It's just a horror story.

41:16

I live in a little cubicle, on a former at airport,

41:18

in a secret area of Guantanamo,

41:26

just looking straight at prisons.

41:30

And so, when I went to see Omar in July,

41:34

Nate had heard, prior to me going,

41:38

that Oman had been getting interrogated again.

41:41

Now, when your audience thinks back,

41:45

these detainees would, from day one have been interrogated

41:47

on an average daily basis.

41:51

And one would want to question, why do you keep doing this?

41:54

Well, my answer is quite simple,

42:01

because I've been dealing in terrorism for years.

42:03

I started in terrorism, I represented an IRA terrorist

42:08

many years ago, and I've been doing terrorism nonstop

42:12

because of George Bush, he gave me a lot of business.

42:16

And I've done a lot of negotiations

42:19

South of the border here.

42:21

And what it is, they don't care about the truth.

42:22

After a while, you'll say anything, just to fill the void.

42:26

And then the interviewer or interrogator

42:31

directs that answer the way he wants.

42:33

And so we had heard that Omar after the trial

42:37

had been interrogated,

42:39

and Nate had written a letter to our military lawyers,

42:41

defense lawyers, and the response we received by email

42:44

was that it was a mistake.

42:48

That they had agreed to allow the FBI to speak to Omar,

42:52

and didn't realize that the parameters of the,

42:55

that would go beyond the parameters of the questioning

42:58

and Gee whizz, it's all over.

43:00

So, when I arrived in Guantanamo Bay,

43:03

it was made very clear to me.

43:06

That if I ask various questions of Omar Khadr, I was out.

43:08

I had some new security guy,

43:13

make sure he spoke to me before I even spoke to Omar,

43:15

that time when you sign into one of the secret prisons,

43:19

and he was making it very clear.

43:22

And of course, if I'm accompanied

43:24

by a military defense Sergeant

43:27

and his job is to prevent, I'm in the same team.

43:29

But this Sergeant's job

43:33

was to prevent me asking Omar certain questions.

43:34

Peter

Why at this late stage

43:38

did they want to restrict the questions?

43:39

-

Well, I don't know.

43:42

So I speak to Omar, and Omar wants to talk to me.

43:45

Omar looked really pale and upset and tired, excuse me.

43:49

And Omar does what he always does when he sees me.

43:57

We hug, we hold hands, he keeps holding my hands,

43:59

and then he plays with my buttons,

44:03

and then he, where's my watch, he plays with my watch.

44:06

And every time he tries to tell me what's going on,

44:10

the military sergeant shuts us down.

44:15

At one point, I was taken out of the cell,

44:17

and put in another cell, for 45 minutes

44:20

just to calm me down.

44:22

Meaning, there's a message to you.

44:23

That being stubborn, being thick

44:27

and determined to protect my client at all costs,

44:32

I eventually had Omar tell me his story,

44:37

and what he said was, "I've been getting interrogated,

44:39

by two different groups of FBI agents,

44:44

for periods of one group of FBI agents interrogates me,

44:48

up to nine days at a time, up to nine hours a day.

44:52

And when that's over, another group comes in,

44:57

and what do they do, they start showing me movies

45:00

of former Presidents and stuff and asking me questions".

45:02

And so, and then as we got closer to my leaving,

45:07

Omar then said to me,

45:15

that the FBI said, if he was to be released,

45:18

that Omar would have to be an informer for them

45:23

when he gets to Canada.

45:25

And first of all I said to Omar,

45:29

I said, I don't represent informers Omar.

45:34

I said, you owe the people here a lot.

45:37

They've helped to keep you alive, other detainees.

45:41

And I've always been, less the lawyer and more his father.

45:45

I've told him that you're my son.

45:50

I'm carrying, I'm in the footsteps of your father.

45:53

And when I think of what's good for you,

45:57

I think what your father would like.

45:59

I haven't taken away, as everybody else has done,

46:02

his family from him as being the most evil people

46:06

in the world.

46:09

And so, I've talked to him about,

46:12

you have to stand up Omar, you are getting out.

46:14

I have two diplomatic notes, one signed by Hillary Clinton,

46:17

and one signed by Prime Minister Harper, I have them.

46:20

We will be in court the day you're supposed to come back.

46:26

And then I made my, prolly.

46:33

By then, I think my, the patience of the military defense

46:36

was running thin with me

46:41

because I'd already, we'll come to it

46:44

showed my dissatisfaction, with the trial process,

46:50

if you want to call it a trial.

46:53

But what I did say to them, was you guys lied to me.

46:55

And I said, I'm supposed to speak before the American bar

47:01

in September, either August or September.

47:06

And I intend to talk about this sham trial, that took place.

47:10

I said, but I'm also going to talk about your duty,

47:15

your lack of duty to a client.

47:16

And don't hide behind the fact that part of the deal

47:20

was he, Omar had cooperate with intelligence.

47:23

There's a vast difference between cooperating,

47:27

and being questioned, so extensively,

47:29

it becomes torture, it's abuse,

47:33

and you're privy to that and you encouraged that.

47:35

And Omar said they encouraged it.

47:38

Peter

I wanna ask you.

47:41

-

So lemme just finish that.

47:43

Peter

Sorry.

47:44

-

So what happened is, that the day before,

47:45

I was supposed to speak to the American Bar,

47:49

I received a two-typed,

47:51

two pages of typewritten instructions.

47:54

One firing me, one that instructed me that I can't talk

47:56

about anything about Guantanamo Bay,

48:04

and a little signature at the bottom, of Omar's.

48:08

And so I thought, well, let's go back into Guantanamo Bay.

48:14

But I'm not allowed into Guantanamo Bay.

48:20

And so, that's how it has ended.

48:23

Peter

And you have no contact with Omar, since?

48:28

-

As this is not, this documentary will take a long time

48:33

to become public, I would tell you

48:38

that I have received information from Omar.

48:43

Omar has a Red Cross arranged for Omar to speak

48:49

to his family.

48:55

And his family were saying to Omar, "What happened?"

48:57

And he said, "I want Edney, tell him I want him.

49:00

Tell him he must speak out for me".

49:04

And I said, so I've spoken with Zainab.

49:09

Peter

Zainab is?

49:14

-

Omar's sister.

49:15

Mere logic really.

49:17

I said, you have to write,

49:18

tell him you have to write a letter, to the Red Cross,

49:20

to you, saying that I was not fired,

49:24

that he wants to see me,

49:31

and I will take that to a court of law.

49:32

So, that's where it's at this point in time.

49:36

Peter

Do you know why he wrote the letter to you?

49:38

-

He didn't write it, it was typewritten.

49:40

Peter

And you know why he signed it?

49:43

-

I think I do.

49:45

I was angry.

49:47

My wife tries to give me some more informed viewpoint.

49:51

I have no doubt that the military said

50:00

"Edney is going to speak to the American Bar.

50:04

He just going to make trouble for you, and the government,

50:08

and the government's going to be angry at you

50:11

and you're not gonna get out."

50:12

Words to that effect.

50:14

Or two, they've said Edney has lost it,

50:15

now, remember he.

50:19

Or three, Edney has been ill.

50:20

And you may do him a good favor by letting him go.

50:23

All those things.

50:29

I'm well aware,

50:34

that for years, I talked about, I kept pointing to the door,

50:35

and saying behind that door is light, it's sunshine.

50:40

You'll get it someday.

50:45

That becomes more tangible,

50:50

the closer you get to that door being open

50:52

you become far more vulnerable.

50:54

And so, on one hand, how can I blame Omar?

50:58

On the other hand, I thought he was stronger.

51:02

I was always aware of Omar,

51:08

when you sit and speak to Omar,

51:11

Omar, there's never.

51:13

You have to go far to meet a kinder, more lovely big man

51:15

whom I'd grown up with.

51:22

He's a softie.

51:26

But I was always aware,

51:28

that every authority figure has abused Omar Khadr.

51:30

From family, to soldiers, to lawyers.

51:34

And here's little Dennis Edney,

51:38

the boy from Scotland, living in Canada.

51:41

And I would joke to him about that, you know?

51:44

And so, when you put pressure on,

51:50

and it's only, why wouldn't you do,

51:53

why wouldn't you sell me out?

51:55

Because these lawyers, who say: "We'll, after you do that,

51:57

you'll be out and you'll be able to get home".

52:01

Why wouldn't you, sort of suspend what you've done?

52:02

But, it doesn't rest easy on me.

52:09

But I think I've come to the conclusion

52:11

that I underestimated the extent to which Omar Khadr

52:12

has no strength to challenge authority.

52:19

I was, I had, I think I actually was aware of that,

52:24

because I'd always pondered with myself,

52:28

and then when we get him out, what do we do with him?

52:31

And that was a main thrust of mine.

52:34

And so, I talked to Omar,

52:37

you're coming with me, with if you want.

52:39

I've arranged for you to get a university training.

52:41

There's a, I know some really nice imams,

52:45

but if you go and live with your family,

52:50

at this stage of time it's not gonna work.

52:52

And so, I'd always thought to myself,

52:57

if I, as a Catholic upbringing,

53:00

that what Omar really needed was going to a monastery

53:03

for a while to heal.

53:07

And someone slowly tell him, ask him questions, like,

53:11

"What do you want to do?"

53:13

"I don't know."

53:15

"Well, go and get it yourself."

53:16

Retrain the child, retrain the man,

53:18

into being able to make decisions,

53:22

and not having to go through some political machinations.

53:24

Are you going to offend anybody

53:28

if you don't make them happy?

53:29

Peter

Did he, was he able to mature in 10 years

53:33

in Guantanamo given what you just described

53:36

with the only people that he really met,

53:39

were these adults who you feel mistreated him,

53:42

and except for you, I mean,

53:47

was he able to mature?

53:49

Was he able to no longer be a child or an adolescent?

53:50

-

That's a great question, Peter.

53:54

It's a great question.

53:56

Because he was chosen to go to trial

53:58

out of the 700 or so detainees, there was Hicks,

54:06

there was Hamdan, I think there's been four trials

54:11

not much more than that.

54:15

He then, has no choice,

54:17

but to have US military defense lawyers, okay.

54:19

And when you're a US military defense lawyer,

54:23

and you have a client, that's all you do, nothing else.

54:26

And so, because the vast majority of detainees

54:31

refuse to deal with any American lawyers,

54:37

your habeas counsel, for example,

54:42

will tell you that they their clients

54:44

won't even speak to them.

54:47

And some isn't, they go just to get instructions

54:50

and hopefully, can get instructions.

54:52

So, Omar then, these lawyers, want to keep Omar,

54:54

a young boy happy.

55:00

What you do is, we buy all kinds of food.

55:02

It's like feeding your dog.

55:05

We bring in McDonald's from the base,

55:08

we bring in nothing but food, food, food,

55:11

and we give you, show you nothing but videos.

55:13

This is playtime.

55:15

And so, as I take my role as a father quite strongly,

55:17

I would be saying, that you got to cut this back.

55:23

Omar, you can't eat this crap.

55:26

You got to keep yourself healthy and videos.

55:28

There's too many movies, here.

55:32

And so, what I had done for years,

55:35

was I would sneak in to Guantanamo, letters from his family,

55:39

and I'd also sneak in information about whatever.

55:48

I try to educate him.

55:52

And I would put it,

55:54

I have orthotics in my shoes.

55:54

And so, I put the paper in there,

56:00

even though I was at risk

56:02

of spending a lot of years, 30 years actually,

56:05

under the secret agreements I've been involved in,

56:08

had to sign, Nate, wouldn't do it.

56:11

But when you get Dennis Edney, you get all,

56:15

you get everything of me.

56:18

And then I started to, I realized,

56:20

that these screening tests you go through all the time,

56:24

they don't pick up paper in your shoe.

56:27

Peter

But didn't the video observe you,

56:31

while you were meeting with him?

56:33

-

We would sit close to each other,

56:34

and you have to think about the video camera up there.

56:37

Whether they actually pay attention, fall asleep,

56:40

but I would then pull stuff out,

56:44

and we'd come really close,

56:45

and I'd have always bring in paper.

56:47

You bring in documents and then you could read it.

56:51

And then, I then I came up with the idea

56:55

of having him educated by correspondence course.

56:57

So, I'd always struggled with that,

57:02

and it's a tough struggle,

57:04

because you've got the boy who gets to watch

57:06

all these movies when the military come,

57:08

and they bring all this, there.

57:15

"So, how's he growing?"

57:16

No.

57:19

"Is he spiritual?"

57:21

Absolutely. He's grown, spiritually.

57:22

They've all grown, spiritually.

57:25

And it's not this Orthodox, Muslim, Islamic faith growth.

57:27

It's a growth in humanity.

57:32

I've never heard Omar Khadr say an angry word

57:35

against anybody.

57:38

And the detainees that I've met from Guantanamo,

57:41

the vast majority of them,

57:44

all they want is to ensure

57:46

that other people don't suffer like them.

57:47

In fact, as Moazzam Begg will tell you,

57:50

former military personnel, guards from Guantanamo Bay,

57:53

have come, to express their apologies.

57:57

I had a call before I left,

58:03

when I left Guantanamo and before I was,

58:07

I had, maybe we should, we could talk about the trial?

58:11

Peter

Sure. Why don't you talk about the trial.

58:18

-

The trial was a mockery.

58:22

Peter

Can you tell us when the trial was,

58:24

just so people.

58:26

-

Trial took place

in October of this year, of last year, 2011.

58:27

And, prior to the trial,

58:32

see if I get my thoughts together.

58:35

Peter

Wasn't the trial in 10

58:39

and he was going to be out by 2011?

58:40

-

No, trial was in, last October.

58:42

And he's.

58:47

We're in 2000.

58:51

Peter

12, now.

58:53

I thought he'd been-

58:54

-

That's right, it was in...

Sorry Peter, you're correct.

58:56

Trial was in 2010,

58:59

and by October, 2011, he was supposed to be out.

59:01

Peter

Now I would like to talk to you

59:07

about why he isn't out,

59:08

but let's talk about the trial first.

59:09

-

So, in the summer of- thank you for that,

59:12

in the summer of 2010 then, what I did,

59:15

was I had set out to get witnesses,

59:20

to appear in Guantanamo Bay as part of the trial.

59:26

And I had been working with Lieutenant Colonel Jackson,

59:28

who is the senior defense counsel, military defense counsel.

59:33

Nice man, tall, good-looking guy, talks well,

59:40

good job in personnel.

59:44

I would never get a job in personnel.

59:45

Okay, and that's how he does well.

59:48

And so, I talked to him about arranging for Romeo Dallaire,

59:52

Senator in Canada, former general,

59:57

who's written a book on child-soldiers to come.

1:00:01

David Crane, the chief prosecutor,

1:00:07

US prosecutor for the Sierra Leone trials,

1:00:09

people from the UN,

1:00:14

I had a whole list of people

1:00:16

that were coming into Guantanamo Bay

1:00:18

to give evidence for Omar Khadr.

1:00:21

And every time I organized all these people,

1:00:25

I shared it with the military,

1:00:28

and It's great, just great.

1:00:31

And Nate Whitling, my co-counsel,

1:00:35

who has a law firm over 100 lawyers,

1:00:38

he offered to turn the law-firm over,

1:00:42

do whatever it takes,

1:00:45

to make us win this trial.

1:00:46

But Nate wasn't accepted.

1:00:52

And, although, and I think I'm a pretty good lawyer,

1:00:54

and I think I write reasonable briefs,

1:01:00

but Nate, Nate's brilliant.

1:01:02

And so, we head over to Guantanamo,

1:01:06

I've got all these witnesses,

1:01:10

and I walk into our office,

1:01:12

the big military office in Guantanamo

1:01:15

for the military defense, there's nobody there.

1:01:17

They're at the beach,

1:01:20

they're doing something, but they're not there.

1:01:21

And the one fight I had, was I wanted a board,

1:01:25

white board, so we could put up what we'd do for trial.

1:01:29

Eventually, I made such a fuss

1:01:33

that I got my own little board stuck in somewhere else.

1:01:34

There was no trial.

1:01:37

There were no witnesses.

1:01:39

And so I said to Jackson, where are the witnesses?

1:01:41

And Jackson now was trespassing upon a core,

1:01:45

one of my core identities, a lawyer.

1:01:48

And he said, "Well, we'll get the evidence

1:01:52

through their witnesses."

1:01:55

And the military's,

1:02:02

the military commission's big case, big witness,

1:02:07

was a psychiatrist called Welner,

1:02:14

who had been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars,

1:02:18

who had to talk about Omar Khadr.

1:02:25

And Welner had this, he's created his own psy-grammatic,

1:02:28

that language to say that he can determine and distinguish,

1:02:35

what makes a terrorist, blah, blah blah.

1:02:43

And these military lawyers, our military defense lawyers,

1:02:47

were scared of him,

1:02:49

'cause he's a big reputation, he's a big bullshitter,

1:02:50

he can talk anywhere.

1:02:52

Well, one of my strengths as a lawyer, is picking brains.

1:02:54

I may call you for help,

1:02:59

I may even ask you to ask your students for help,

1:03:02

I do it everywhere.

1:03:04

I've never been frightened to seek out,

1:03:06

from my colleagues help, and I've always had help.

1:03:08

And so, I got in touch with a lawyer,

1:03:12

called Paul Copeland, in Toronto,

1:03:14

former president of the Law Society of Upper Canada,

1:03:15

and I talked about Welner, and he says,

1:03:22

"You know Dennis, we know lawyers

1:03:23

who've cross-examined Welner.

1:03:26

Contact so-and-so in London."

1:03:28

So I contact this lawyer, in London,

1:03:30

what does he do?

1:03:32

He says "I'm on holiday, Dennis, I'll call my office,

1:03:33

and I'll have them send you the transcripts

1:03:35

of the cross-examination of Welner.

1:03:37

Welner's a bullshitter, and he's an American lawyer,

1:03:38

who's contacted, who's cross-examined,

1:03:42

and he'll say the same.

1:03:44

So I had these transcripts,

1:03:45

I couldn't make your life any easier".

1:03:47

So, we had no witnesses for trial,

1:03:51

and then, Welner goes on the stand,

1:03:56

and Welner talks for days.

1:03:58

And Welner has a CV that was 48 pages long.

1:04:00

To me and to Nate, we're like coyotes salivating.

1:04:07

You come before us, with that sort of stuff,

1:04:13

I love it, I'll kill you.

1:04:15

I will just take you apart.

1:04:17

And I had people then calling me, all the time,

1:04:20

with information about Welner.

1:04:23

I mean, we would have killed each other

1:04:26

to get up and take Welner on.

1:04:28

When we cross-examined Welner, Omar's legal team,

1:04:32

if it lasted an hour, I'm not sure.

1:04:39

And Welner made us look like fools.

1:04:44

Because when Welner's report which is hundreds of pages,

1:04:46

supposedly of informed psychiatric language

1:04:50

and conclusions.

1:04:56

When Welner was challenged about some of his theories, okay?

1:05:03

And I should step back,

1:05:07

Welner's theories are based

1:05:09

upon a so-called Dutch psychiatrist, psychologist,

1:05:10

who's not a psychologist,

1:05:15

who's just a social worker,

1:05:17

who got fired because of his anti-Muslim sentiments.

1:05:18

And when you go through Welner's resume,

1:05:22

Welner had only had one conversation by telephone,

1:05:26

with this guy,

1:05:30

this chap from Holland,

1:05:31

and the book that he said that this Dutch expert,

1:05:35

on terrorism wrote, was in Dutch.

1:05:41

It's never been translated into English.

1:05:46

So we never even asked Welner, do you speak Dutch.

1:05:49

So what we did was,

1:05:53

and Jackson, who had just brought in a new,

1:05:55

young military lawyer, to help him,

1:06:00

has him cross-examining, Welner.

1:06:03

Peter

Why couldn't you cross-examine him?

1:06:07

-

Not allowed.

1:06:09

Peter

You weren't allowed?

1:06:10

-

Not allowed.

1:06:12

Peter

As a Canadian?

1:06:13

-

As a Canadian.

1:06:14

And also, because myself and the judge

1:06:15

were not in the best of terms with each other.

1:06:19

But I'm not allowed to cross-examine.

1:06:21

Peter

Could you provide all the materials

1:06:25

that you had to Jackson?

1:06:27

-

I did, I gave him all.

1:06:29

We worked to feed them,

1:06:32

and we were the, we did the work behind the scenes.

1:06:34

Peter

And why do you think he didn't use

1:06:37

what you gave him?

1:06:39

-

Oh,

before we even get there,

1:06:40

what he did was, that this junior lawyer then,

1:06:41

starts asking questions.

1:06:46

Remember, when you're teaching trial advocacy,

1:06:48

and you saying, well, you're to,

1:06:51

what you have to do is, first of all show the report.

1:06:53

You wrote this report, we didn't have the report.

1:06:56

And Welner says,

1:07:01

"Until you show me the exact page you're talking to,

1:07:03

I can't refer to it."

1:07:05

Good old Welner, he knows how to play the game.

1:07:07

And so, I'm saying to these guys, go upstairs,

1:07:11

it's a matter of going from here to the end of the hallway,

1:07:13

and photocopy, they never did that, never.

1:07:16

And then, and so, when Welner was finished,

1:07:22

I remember turning around to somebody,

1:07:29

'cause I sit with Omar, at the desk with the jury here

1:07:31

and the judge there,

1:07:36

and the military lawyers here,

1:07:38

and all these military guys around us,

1:07:39

and Omar's chained to the floor

1:07:41

'cause he could maybe jump through the ceiling and escape.

1:07:43

When it was over, I said, is it over?

1:07:50

I couldn't believe it.

1:07:53

And then, when Jackson got up after Welner,

1:07:56

then Jackson collapses, yeah?

1:08:00

God bless him.

1:08:04

'Cause I can tell you, I was in the hospital with him

1:08:06

later that afternoon, he was a happy camper.

1:08:08

So he doesn't get any mercy out of me.

1:08:12

And so, trial was suspended,

1:08:15

I go home, and then I'm still working on Guantanamo matter,

1:08:21

and I'm in Quebec, and I get a call

1:08:26

from various newspaper reporters,

1:08:31

that there's a plea-deal in works.

1:08:38

And the National Post of Canada

1:08:43

which is a pretty conservative newspaper,

1:08:46

has been fed some pretty relevant information,

1:08:48

from, I imagine, from the military prosecution's side,

1:08:52

and I'm called, then, to come to Guantanamo,

1:08:57

to sell Omar Khadr on a deal.

1:08:59

And the deal is,

1:09:04

Omar serves one more year in Canada and he goes back.

1:09:06

Peter

In Guantanamo.

1:09:09

-

One more year in Guantanamo then he goes back.

1:09:11

And Omar didn't want that deal.

1:09:13

And I have an ethical responsibility not to force him.

1:09:17

So, I didn't twist his arms,

1:09:23

but I did say to him, you must take it,

1:09:26

otherwise, you'll spend the rest of your life here.

1:09:29

And when you get out, you can go,

1:09:32

you can show the Canadians what you really are.

1:09:35

But something else Omar,

1:09:39

we have a psychiatrist, Brigadier General Xenakis

1:09:43

who's assessed you, who said you're wonderful,

1:09:48

and we have Kate Porterfield, a psychologist from New York.

1:09:52

They will go on the stand,

1:09:55

and they will rehabilitate everything at sentencing,

1:09:56

everything that Welner said.

1:09:59

This is sort of lethargic for me in some ways.

1:10:04

And then what happens?

1:10:08

So I persuade Omar, but what I wasn't told,

1:10:09

was there was a statement of facts Omar had to agree to,

1:10:14

that Jackson took in to Omar and said,

1:10:20

"Sign, Dennis will tell you about it later."

1:10:22

And in that statement of facts,

1:10:25

says Omar has admitting that he hates Jews,

1:10:27

that he got paid money to make bombs,

1:10:30

that he did, It was just horrible.

1:10:33

I remember, I confronted Jackson about it,

1:10:36

and Jackson said, "Well, I had to do that."

1:10:38

Well, I confronted the military prosecutors

1:10:42

in Guantanamo about it.

1:10:44

That they're only bad in Guantanamo,

1:10:47

and I got on well with the military prosecutors by the way.

1:10:49

And they said to me, "That's not true, Dennis.

1:10:53

We put him under no pressure to sign that."

1:10:56

But the reality was, but more importantly,

1:11:00

was Nate and I are now back for the sentencing.

1:11:04

And all these witnesses, that we had for the trial,

1:11:08

were coming for the sentencing,

1:11:11

and they weren't brought by our military defense team.

1:11:14

I was getting emails from the United Nations.

1:11:18

"What's going on, how do we get in here?"

1:11:21

They weren't called.

1:11:23

The only witness that was called,

1:11:25

was Arlette Zinck,

1:11:30

a teacher from Edmonton, Alberta,

1:11:33

who had done the correspondence process,

1:11:36

who had never met Omar,

1:11:39

had never spoken to him.

1:11:42

And so, the night before our psychiatrist and psychologist

1:11:47

was going to go home,

1:11:51

Brigadier General Xenakis comes to my little,

1:11:54

what we call a (indistinct), my little cell,

1:11:57

on the airport,

1:12:00

and he tells me that he doesn't,

1:12:03

he's not going to testify tomorrow

1:12:05

on behalf of Omar Khadr.

1:12:07

Remember he's been paid hundreds of thousands of dollars.

1:12:08

His report wasn't even tendered into the record.

1:12:15

And he said that, he'd been,

1:12:20

they have these pre-trial witness discoveries,

1:12:24

and in the course of that pretrial witness discovery,

1:12:28

where he'd been questioned for hours,

1:12:31

he was questioned, he said to me,

1:12:34

about an alleged infidelity he had 10 years previous

1:12:37

while his wife was dying from cancer.

1:12:45

And I said,

1:12:48

so, you think a military jury cares?

1:12:51

And you're a Brigadier General 10 years ago?

1:12:55

And what's the relevance of it?

1:12:57

So what I said, tomorrow morning we're having a meeting.

1:13:00

And so I had a meeting with Jackson,

1:13:04

myself, Nate and Xenakis and Porterfield, the psychologist,

1:13:08

she's away, all over, she's just avoiding anything.

1:13:12

And Jackson says to me, he said,

1:13:17

"I have this jury in my hands."

1:13:22

Now, you may get me wrong in dates,

1:13:26

you may get me wrong, on places,

1:13:29

but you know, I'm a wild trial lawyer,

1:13:32

you don't get me wrong on comments like that.

1:13:36

I've never had anybody tell me

1:13:39

that the jury are in their hands,

1:13:41

so that sticks with me.

1:13:42

I would love to know how to do.

1:13:43

And I'm thinking, what jury?

1:13:46

This military jury?

1:13:49

And so, what was he hoping to do then without anybody?

1:13:53

Just put this a little teacher up with this jury?

1:13:57

He must have God-like abilities.

1:13:59

So, Nate, in Nate's academic way says,

1:14:02

"Look, they have to go up."

1:14:06

And, Xenakis is sitting there and saying,

1:14:10

making arguments why he shouldn't go up

1:14:16

at the last moment.

1:14:18

And I said, I don't care, you go up.

1:14:20

And that's when Jackson challenged me in a very nice way.

1:14:23

He said, essentially, "I've got the jury, Dennis."

1:14:29

And that's when I said to him,

1:14:33

in a not so nice way, you know?

1:14:33

I said, you know that John,

1:14:37

you're the biggest bullshitter I know.

1:14:41

I said, I've listened to you bullshit me for so long.

1:14:44

There was the trial, and now here.

1:14:48

I arrive here, you guys haven't done any work, so on.

1:14:51

And he got angry, he was big guy, and he said,

1:14:57

"What did you say"?

1:15:01

And I said the same thing to him again.

1:15:02

And then, he started crying.

1:15:05

He wasn't scared of Dennis Edney.

1:15:08

He was under great pressure.

1:15:11

What was that pressure?

1:15:14

Because I've spoken to Lieutenant Colonel Caldwell,

1:15:16

who is the chief defense counsel,

1:15:20

for all the military lawyers in Guantanamo,

1:15:24

and he's out of Washington.

1:15:27

And I said and he was at the trial,

1:15:31

and I said to him,

1:15:33

these guys haven't done any work.

1:15:35

And he kept following me around all through the trial

1:15:37

making sure I don't speak to the (indistinct).

1:15:39

They asked me not even to speak to the press.

1:15:42

And he said to me, "I know, I agree."

1:15:45

He knew, he agreed.

1:15:48

Unless I'm completely lying,

1:15:49

I've lost track of what reality is,

1:15:52

this is the story.

1:15:55

Your chief lead counsel for all the military lawyers,

1:15:57

agrees that this international trial,

1:16:02

the world is going to be watching,

1:16:05

he knows his guys have done nothing.

1:16:07

And he didn't do anything about it.

1:16:09

And so, none of those psychologists or psychiatrists

1:16:12

went on the stand and I said to them,

1:16:15

if don't do that, you leave me in a very difficult position

1:16:17

when I go back to Canada.

1:16:21

'Cause every time I go into court to fight for Omar Khadr,

1:16:22

I have a terrorist.

1:16:26

I'm trying to recall how Welner described him,

1:16:33

"An unrepentant Jihadist warrior."

1:16:36

That's on the record, and I have nothing to come by,

1:16:40

and that's possibly why to some extent, Omar is not back.

1:16:43

And so, when that was all over, I walked out.

1:16:49

And Nate, if Nate were here with us tonight for dinner,

1:16:54

he may say three words throughout dinner.

1:16:58

You're not gonna get a great conversation from Nate.

1:17:00

He's not, he doesn't show that.

1:17:02

He's just a real, serious, forensic academic

1:17:04

antisocial to the best and yet we've worked wonderfully

1:17:10

over the many years.

1:17:14

We've been together now 12 years in cases.

1:17:15

And I remember his comment to me as we walked out,

1:17:18

he says, "I'm ashamed."

1:17:21

And you know, I sit here today, and I say to you,

1:17:24

I used to be proud of myself as a lawyer.

1:17:27

I know my wife will tell you

1:17:29

that I'm tough on myself.

1:17:32

Well, I am tough, why?

1:17:34

Because I have, I believed in the power of law.

1:17:36

I believed in who we are, as our colleagues.

1:17:40

And I promised Omar Khadr,

1:17:45

that I would rehabilitate his reputation.

1:17:47

And when that farce was all over,

1:17:56

Omar didn't say to me, "You let me down."

1:17:58

He didn't say, I'd have gone at you.

1:18:01

He didn't say one word, all he said was,

1:18:03

"I knew this would happen."

1:18:07

He knew the fix was in.

1:18:10

He knew he couldn't get justice.

1:18:12

But he allowed me to believe in it.

1:18:15

So that, and allowed me to push him into that process.

1:18:19

Peter

Where was the fix from?

1:18:24

-

It could be as simple, I'm no great conspiracy theorist.

1:18:27

It could be as simple as the fact

1:18:33

that these guys are so inept.

1:18:35

These military lawyers.

1:18:39

There are some great ones.

1:18:41

Charlie Swift, who was on Hamdan,

1:18:43

I would work for Charlie for a year free of charge,

1:18:45

but Omar Khadr has never had a serious lawyer represent him,

1:18:48

from the military.

1:18:52

He had Kuebler, and I could never get Kuebler to tell me

1:18:53

what single trial he'd ever done.

1:18:56

Then he has Jackson, and Jackson is full of fluff.

1:19:01

And remember, these military lawyers, the vast majority,

1:19:05

they've worked on bases.

1:19:08

They're representing your guys who were busted with pot,

1:19:10

and a domestic assault.

1:19:14

Then you throw 'em into this international case,

1:19:16

my kind of case, I do nothing but complex stuff.

1:19:19

And if I fail at the complex stuff,

1:19:23

I got Mr. Genius Whitling, next to me.

1:19:25

So, it could be as simple, was they were up to it,

1:19:30

they got a deal, and did nothing else.

1:19:33

And they just rested.

1:19:36

Doesn't explain why we had no witnesses for the trial.

1:19:38

The other fiction is that,

1:19:46

when you're a military lawyer,

1:19:55

fighting for the worst of the, again,

1:19:56

representing the worst of the worst,

1:19:58

and this, that noted humanitarian, Dick Cheney said,

1:20:01

Those lawyers, they get promoted.

1:20:08

The Guantanamo gig is a wonderful gig.

1:20:10

It doesn't threaten their career.

1:20:14

And so, I don't know.

1:20:18

But I do know, that because of the way the trial had gone,

1:20:22

and my criticism, and because of the vulnerability

1:20:31

to ruin particularly Xenakis, because Xenakis emailed me

1:20:37

just a few days prior to me getting fired, saying,

1:20:42

"Look, Dennis, we miss you at the table.

1:20:45

Come and join us."

1:20:50

I've kept all that history.

1:20:52

And I emailed back to him,

1:20:54

I said, "I have communicated with you a few times

1:20:57

since the trial.

1:20:59

You have never given me a proper answer

1:21:00

why you didn't go up on the stand?"

1:21:02

I said, I can't trust you,

1:21:04

but I'm prepared to meet with you in New York,

1:21:06

and we can talk this out.

1:21:08

I got fired.

1:21:11

They knew I was on their trail.

1:21:13

And absolutely, I was.

1:21:16

Not immediately, but when this all settled down,

1:21:20

and I got Omar back, and I was thinking,

1:21:25

maybe it's time to sort of do one more big trial.

1:21:28

I had, that's why I was at the Criminal Court of Justice.

1:21:31

Maybe do one trial before the Criminal Court of Justice,

1:21:33

and then retire.

1:21:36

And what would I do for my retirement?

1:21:37

I'm a lawyer.

1:21:38

Then I would go after Xenakis and those military lawyers

1:21:40

through their profession.

1:21:47

Who knows, I may have gotten tired,

1:21:48

but they knew they had to cut me out.

1:21:51

Peter

I want to just, I think may Louise

1:21:54

has a question for you,

1:21:55

but I mentioned wanting to ask you,

1:21:56

why did Omar not want to sign the agreement

1:21:58

when you said that you kind of convinced him to sign it,

1:22:01

why didn't (indistinct)

1:22:04

-

Omar,

Omar has never accepted that he killed anybody.

1:22:06

In fact, there's no evidence.

1:22:10

There's a fascinating, the Omar Khadr subject is so complex,

1:22:13

and so lengthy, it touches upon so many issues

1:22:19

that we could stay here for a week.

1:22:22

But at the trial, the two Delta Force officers

1:22:25

were brought to give evidence.

1:22:35

And the one that gave evidence,

1:22:38

was the one who shot Omar Khadr in the back twice.

1:22:40

And remember, the US government does acknowledge

1:22:45

there's such a group as the Delta force,

1:22:49

and I could tell you they're pretty impressive.

1:22:53

I spoke to both of them.

1:22:55

That's a lie, I spoke to one of them.

1:22:56

I didn't speak to the one who had shot Omar,

1:22:59

but he really, it resonated with me.

1:23:03

He'd sit over in the corner,

1:23:07

and there was other military guys coming to give talk too,

1:23:09

because you must remember, the US army,

1:23:12

is just staffed essentially from reservists.

1:23:15

And so, it was a reservist group,

1:23:18

that attacked the compound,

1:23:22

and the chap who was in charge of it all,

1:23:25

he was nowhere near the battle,

1:23:27

he was on some hill, looking down

1:23:28

and he got promoted.

1:23:30

And so, here you had, I think it's,

1:23:32

his ID was OA1, and he gets up.

1:23:37

But before he got up, I should tell you the background.

1:23:45

I caught him sitting all alone

1:23:47

and I was keeping my eye on him,

1:23:49

'cause I always wanna see the witnesses.

1:23:50

And what does he doing, he's reading Kierkegaard.

1:23:54

And he looked like some to me,

1:23:58

the way he was dressed,

1:24:01

he looked like some Scottish laird,

1:24:02

from the Highlands of Scotland.

1:24:05

Tall, sort of dark, kinda tweedy-looking clothes,

1:24:08

although I'm sure it wasn't tweed,

1:24:13

and just lost into the book,

1:24:15

and not interested in talking.

1:24:16

And when he got up, he was great.

1:24:18

He said, "You know," and here's Judge Parrish,

1:24:22

sitting there, in all his finery and pomposity.

1:24:26

And he says, "Well, what was, was a clusterfuck."

1:24:33

"Could you elaborate on that please?"

1:24:37

(chuckling)

1:24:39

And he said, "Well, you know, these guys, they came,

1:24:40

they surrounded this compound,

1:24:42

and then they started firing, and so,

1:24:44

just indiscriminate shooting.

1:24:46

So we get a call, so they've called for help.

1:24:48

They've called for the planes

1:24:51

to blast the shit out of the place,

1:24:52

and we've rushing in our van, to get there,

1:24:54

and there's five of them."

1:24:56

He said, "So, I sent the guys around the compound,

1:24:58

I go into the compound."

1:25:04

And so, the prosecutor stops because forever

1:25:06

they've been happy and pleased about the fact

1:25:10

they've got this, they've recreated

1:25:12

from satellite photographs,

1:25:14

what the compound looked like.

1:25:16

And they'd been waiting years to show it.

1:25:17

So they trot it out, "Is this where you came?

1:25:19

And this is the wall?

1:25:22

Remember, you were only there once."

1:25:24

"No, it's not.

1:25:25

There was a gap in the wall here,

1:25:26

the wall, down here, wasn't as large as that."

1:25:28

This guy was a pro.

1:25:30

And, what does he say?

1:25:32

He said, "I go into the fire."

1:25:34

"What do you mean by that?"

1:25:37

"You got more chance of being killed,

1:25:39

being on their side of the walls,

1:25:41

as if you are, if you go right into the gunfire."

1:25:44

He said, "So I got to the side of this little alley,

1:25:48

in the compound,

1:25:51

and then I, and at the bottom, there's a,

1:25:53

I mean there's shooting, from the bottom of the compound,

1:25:57

by one of the Taliban.

1:25:58

He makes his way into that compound

1:26:03

was probably the length of this wall.

1:26:04

He shoots one guy, kills him,

1:26:07

shoots another guy, kills him.

1:26:10

Omar Khadr, he said, is screaming,

1:26:13

because of the bombing,

1:26:16

and he is facing a wall screaming,

1:26:18

'cause in that's Omar's story.

1:26:20

He says "I shot him twice in the back, and then I left."

1:26:23

And so, I'm doing back-flips.

1:26:28

I'm saying to these guys, He's not gonna lie.

1:26:32

He doesn't give a shit about Omar Khadr.

1:26:37

He has got no, he's not really,

1:26:39

he's not caught up in this.

1:26:42

Ask him, how long it was, I asked him.

1:26:45

I forget now, but it was about, 28 to 30 seconds.

1:26:51

Did you see the hand-grenade?

1:26:55

So what he did, he turning round, he's a man in motion,

1:26:57

he never saw a hand-grenade.

1:26:59

He heard a hand-grenade coming over.

1:27:00

He didn't see who threw that.

1:27:03

You're just man in motion.

1:27:07

I go in and react and I come out,

1:27:09

that's what I'm trained to.

1:27:10

I was, what was the other concern he had?

1:27:11

And I write these little, it's like you've got a student.

1:27:14

Ask him how long he stayed in the compound

1:27:18

to see who was all there.

1:27:20

He said, "We had to get out of there.

1:27:21

We couldn't secure the compound.

1:27:23

We didn't know how many people were in that compound.

1:27:25

Because we thought there was problems coming

1:27:29

so I was getting people out

1:27:30

and I had wounded people to take care of."

1:27:31

That's the eyewitness.

1:27:34

And of course, what he didn't say,

1:27:38

was that where Omar was picked up,

1:27:45

there was also other dead bodies.

1:27:47

'Cause when Omar was lying there

1:27:51

to all the sense and purpose,

1:27:53

who killed those guys, you know, so.

1:27:55

Peter

Do you wanna ask a question, (indistinct)

1:28:00

Louise

Well, I'm curious to know if,

1:28:01

the Canadian people would have found it so horrible

1:28:04

to have Omar come home, with this taint on him,

1:28:10

haven't they grown cynical enough

1:28:14

that they would realize he would sign off

1:28:17

and say whatever he needed to say, to get out of there?

1:28:19

So if he were to come to Canada with this baggage,

1:28:22

how awful would that have been?

1:28:26

Johnny

Can you look at Peter when you answer?

1:28:29

-

Had I not married Patricia,

1:28:37

I was, my twin brother was a lawyer,

1:28:42

it was known that I've a restless, nature,

1:28:45

was getting me a job in Hong Kong I thought it was great.

1:28:49

Marrying Patricia, then I come and do law in Canada,

1:28:54

and I'm delighted to be there.

1:29:00

It's a kind country, it's a peaceful country,

1:29:03

it's a polite country.

1:29:06

I have big bruisers, in my old town of Edmonton

1:29:08

holding doors for you, I like it.

1:29:12

And so, I boasted for a long time

1:29:17

about the difference between America,

1:29:21

is that if you're a Scot, and you come to America,

1:29:24

you can't be a Scot, you've got to be an American.

1:29:27

And you've got to embrace all this, the history,

1:29:29

that Hollywood tells you what America has done.

1:29:32

Whereas in Canada, and this is true,

1:29:35

that whether you're Jewish, whether you're French,

1:29:37

whether you're from Libya, wherever you're from,

1:29:40

we embrace that individuality,

1:29:43

and it's kind of fun, you know?

1:29:45

And so, the mosaic of Canada works.

1:29:48

But in my journey,

1:29:54

well, and during, as a Guantanamo lawyer,

1:29:59

you question your own friends,

1:30:07

you question civil institutions, law faculties,

1:30:10

you certainly question at churches.

1:30:15

You say, "Where is that compassion?"

1:30:19

You say, "What represents Canada?"

1:30:24

Well I think, in all of us,

1:30:29

racism lies quite shallow below us all.

1:30:31

You throw into that mix, the branding of somebody.

1:30:40

Once you put it on TV that a can of beans,

1:30:46

HP beans is bad for you,

1:30:51

you can't rehabilitate that.

1:30:57

You have to get a new logo, a new product.

1:31:00

Our government, and this government,

1:31:07

has done very well, let's say on the Khadrs,

1:31:10

as the Taliban that family.

1:31:15

And they'd been assisted in the early days,

1:31:22

by some of the most outrageous stupid comments

1:31:25

made by the family.

1:31:28

Zainab and her mother,

1:31:30

I recall, when I was getting ready to go out for dinner

1:31:33

on a Sunday night, I was putting my collar and tie on

1:31:36

and Patricia who has never been a family,

1:31:38

I mean, a big fan of the Khadr family,

1:31:40

said "You may want to watch this Dennis."

1:31:43

Ah, okay, and it's 60 minutes or some program

1:31:46

interviewing the Khadrs in Islamabad.

1:31:50

And they're saying

1:31:54

that they'd rather their son be a terrorist

1:31:56

or a suicide-bomber,

1:32:01

then be gay, and sell drugs on the streets of Toronto.

1:32:03

So I guess Toronto was full of drug-dealers,

1:32:07

and worst of all, gay guys, you know?

1:32:11

And that, and comments like that,

1:32:14

have resonated in Amer- in the Canadian psyche

1:32:20

time and time again.

1:32:24

And they haven't had helped themselves,

1:32:26

for all those court proceedings I've been in Canada,

1:32:27

I couldn't tell you how many I've been in.

1:32:30

The Khadrs have shown up,

1:32:33

and sat there and showed a disrespect for the courts

1:32:35

playing with their cellphones.

1:32:37

And so, it distracts from what I'm trying to do.

1:32:40

So I developed a new principle of law when I go into court,

1:32:45

the Khadr effect.

1:32:49

And when I say to judges, they don't like it.

1:32:50

What they say is hardcore. "We'll straighten this out."

1:32:55

But, then I find a judge said,

1:32:59

"Mr. Edney, can you speak to your clients?"

1:33:00

'Cause it becomes distracting.

1:33:05

When I cross-examined CSIS,

1:33:07

and CSIS agent, in federal court one time,

1:33:09

Zainab Khadr came running up to my desk to shout at him.

1:33:13

And so, when you speak about Omar Khadr in Canada,

1:33:20

they don't see Omar Khadr, they see the family.

1:33:25

And when I, when the paper announced that Omar was coming

1:33:29

to the Edneys, Chez Edney, it's my house.

1:33:33

And I live in a posh neighborhood.

1:33:37

I live in a Jewish ghetto and you have to be a doctor

1:33:40

to live here, you know?

1:33:45

Yeah, seriously.

1:33:46

And then I announced that Kings College,

1:33:50

University College, where my boy goes to,

1:33:54

is going to give them free education.

1:33:57

They're going to streamline his high school education,

1:34:00

and then move him into.

1:34:02

Well, my friends, my old friends and staff,

1:34:04

they couldn't believe that I would do that.

1:34:09

"How do you allow one of those people here?"

1:34:11

And Kings University College,

1:34:19

was inundated with threatening calls

1:34:23

that the police were called in.

1:34:25

That'd never go into the press.

1:34:28

And just recently, I was appointed Queens Counsel.

1:34:31

And so, I had a party to celebrate

1:34:35

having become an establishment figure, you know?

1:34:38

And Zainab Khadr had come with a message from Guantanamo.

1:34:43

And it was, and she'd called me and she said,

1:34:48

"I can't speak to you on the phone,

1:34:50

but I need to see you",

1:34:52

and she'd called a few.

1:34:53

I said, come, I'm having a party.

1:34:54

So here she is with the full burka,

1:35:00

and with me, she takes it off in my house, she took it off,

1:35:02

but for the party, she put it on, what am I gonna do?

1:35:04

And so, my sister-in-law and brother-in-law,

1:35:07

they were just furious she was at the table.

1:35:10

So, we have a fear of things we don't understand,

1:35:15

we hold Muslims responsible for the acts of a few,

1:35:22

we don't hold Christians responsible for the acts of a few.

1:35:27

So, I've never been able to sell Omar,

1:35:31

as well I could have sold,

1:35:35

but for the behaviors of the family members.

1:35:39

Johnny

(indistinct)

1:35:45

-

Is it?

1:35:46

Peter

Do you have another question?

1:35:48

Louise

Have you ever been personally threatened?

1:35:49

-

Yes, (laughs)

1:35:52

Louise

Because of this case?

1:35:53

-

Of course.

1:35:55

I know a lawyer out of Toronto

1:35:59

who got threatened on a drug case,

1:36:03

and he went before the media and he was quitting.

1:36:06

And I thought, I'd be embarrassed to do that.

1:36:09

We lawyers, we take on these cases,

1:36:11

and I've never, ever had threats.

1:36:14

I've represented some pretty unsavory individuals.

1:36:16

I just came from Kingston penitentiary,

1:36:21

and I have this, Sammy, this big Somalian giant,

1:36:24

who cries when he speaks to me

1:36:29

because he wants me to do his first-degree murder case.

1:36:30

And I'm coming round to speak to.

1:36:35

I have never, in my criminal experience,

1:36:37

but have I had it elsewhere of course.

1:36:40

My wife called me one time and she said that somebody

1:36:44

had been on the phone, and just been absolutely vulgar

1:36:48

and threatening and then I picked up my cellphone,

1:36:50

and I had the same guy, except I had his number.

1:36:54

So instead of calling the police, I called him.

1:36:59

I'd lots of time, I spend my life in airports.

1:37:01

And I called him from the Toronto airport,

1:37:04

and he was in Calgary, Alberta.

1:37:05

And after he used every vulgar word in the book

1:37:07

and I hung up on him, I waited.

1:37:11

And then I got back on the phone with him.

1:37:14

And eventually we dialogued, and when was over,

1:37:17

he invited me for coffee the next time I'm in Calgary.

1:37:20

I've been accused, I've been on TV and radio,

1:37:25

and been accused of being a terrorist.

1:37:27

And you know, I have never, ever got into the fight

1:37:29

of guilt or innocence.

1:37:34

I've stuck, from day one,

1:37:36

on the belief in justice,

1:37:40

and the fundamental rights of every human being,

1:37:42

regardless of what color or creed you are.

1:37:45

That's why it's very difficult to attack me.

1:37:48

And that's why we lawyers are powerful,

1:37:51

because they may trash you,

1:37:54

they may have to change the law,

1:37:58

but they can't get around

1:38:01

telling you that you're wrong

1:38:04

when you're talking about human dignity

1:38:06

and fundamental justice.

1:38:07

Peter

Well, you kind of spoke to this earlier,

1:38:10

but since you're bringing it up again,

1:38:12

would you say that this last six or seven years,

1:38:14

when you're representing Omar,

1:38:19

your life has changed in ways that it didn't,

1:38:21

when you represented other high-value defendants?

1:38:23

-

Of course, for the good and the bad.

1:38:28

I'm a far more,

1:38:35

I've become far more worldly.

1:38:38

Peter

Far, far more-

1:38:42

-

Worldly.

I really, for all my history,

1:38:44

I've never really fully understood

1:38:49

the power of that intransigent governments can have,

1:38:52

when they're determined to take a direction

1:38:57

that you think goes against your very values.

1:39:01

That's what we're facing today here in the United States,

1:39:05

we're facing it in Canada.

1:39:08

I've never seen apathy really at work.

1:39:12

I didn't need, I've never needed public support,

1:39:18

but I realized,

1:39:22

that I have to be successful,

1:39:24

I needed some public support.

1:39:26

Not just, I've never lost a case,

1:39:28

against the Canadian-American government.

1:39:31

I need more.

1:39:34

So as a human being, that has affected me.

1:39:36

As a lawyer, it's affecting me.

1:39:40

I have, if you were to say to me, I'd say to you,

1:39:41

I've become very tired of being ill through the Khadr case,

1:39:45

I spent a great deal of our savings.

1:39:48

My wife for years, has been robbing Peter to pay Paul,

1:39:53

and trying to keep it away from me.

1:39:58

I gave up a flourishing practice,

1:40:01

just to, I was committed to this.

1:40:04

I've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars,

1:40:06

and I'm not rich.

1:40:09

But would you say to me, would I do it again, absolutely.

1:40:13

It's, I don't feel like (indistinct),

1:40:17

and express my rage.

1:40:22

I just feel a much more human person.

1:40:24

A better understanding of what it takes,

1:40:26

and a better understanding of what justice is all about.

1:40:28

So, no.

1:40:35

But I think you have to be strong.

1:40:42

I think that this kind of journey,

1:40:44

where you look to friends, neighbors,

1:40:48

colleagues to support you in something

1:40:51

that's so fundamentally right and they don't.

1:40:54

I'm a bencher for the Law Society,

1:40:58

and I have had comments heard

1:41:02

by a couple of corporate boys on the board

1:41:03

making disparaging remarks.

1:41:08

And I have argued with them,

1:41:10

that what distinguishes us as lawyers

1:41:12

from a business person has to be a commitment to justice.

1:41:15

Whether you're a real-estate lawyer,

1:41:20

a personal injury lawyer, whatever.

1:41:22

I've been told, that, that train left a long time ago.

1:41:25

But I don't believe that.

1:41:30

So you have to keep on going,

1:41:33

but it's not an easy journey.

1:41:35

Peter

Will Omar get out?

1:41:37

-

What Jackson did,

1:41:41

was he called Arlette Zinck up in Edmonton,

1:41:44

and asked her, if she would continue to assist Omar

1:41:48

with correspondence.

1:41:54

And she said, yes.

1:41:56

And I said, he won't carry through with that.

1:41:57

All he is doing, is saying to Omar Khadr,

1:42:01

I've got Edney out the picture,

1:42:05

but I've got a lawyer, out of Toronto for you,

1:42:06

and I've got you and nothing changes.

1:42:10

So, he got a lawyer out of Toronto,

1:42:14

who was a friend of Bill Kuebler's.

1:42:15

I don't know him, well, I do know him,

1:42:17

but I don't know him well

1:42:19

and I don't tend to disparage him.

1:42:20

But you can't, it's all very well doing a lawyer,

1:42:23

but to do the kind of cases that we do,

1:42:26

We've changed, we've changed the law in Canada.

1:42:31

We've changed extraterritorial effect of the charter.

1:42:35

They're studying our cases down in Buenos Ares.

1:42:39

What I use American cases to assist me,

1:42:47

I've used Australian cases as you know about

1:42:51

as a law professor.

1:42:54

It's not a simple matter of saying, hey, what will I do?

1:42:57

You have to know what to have to do. So nothing's happened.

1:43:02

What do I think?

1:43:06

Well, I don't know, I don't know.

1:43:08

It doesn't look good.

1:43:14

I mean, Obama, has codified indefinite detention,

1:43:16

Obama, has persuaded Congress to continue

1:43:25

with the Patriot Act.

1:43:31

Homeland Security Bill.

1:43:33

Obama has, is no better than George Bush.

1:43:35

Obama is, I used to think you don't hire academics

1:43:43

to be leaders because you guys just want the consensus.

1:43:46

I see Obama more than that.

1:43:51

I flew out of Washington on the day of his inauguration,

1:43:53

when I was flying to Guantanamo Bay.

1:43:57

And I saw, I was astounded,

1:44:00

at what a black president meant to so many people

1:44:03

throughout the world.

1:44:06

And then he had the audacity to accept a Nobel Peace Prize.

1:44:08

He's a politician.

1:44:13

And politicians are there to be made accountable.

1:44:15

And he doesn't know how to fight,

1:44:20

and his values are all over the place.

1:44:23

He doesn't reflect my values.

1:44:24

And I loved the comment I heard by Court of Appeal Judges

1:44:27

in both in Holland and in Quebec,

1:44:31

saying the same thing.

1:44:35

He doesn't reflect our values.

1:44:37

And that's all I can say about him, he's a disappointment.

1:44:39

He had a chance to take America, and re-find itself.

1:44:42

I'm Scottish, so it's all doom and gloom to me.

1:44:52

I don't know about the future of America.

1:44:56

I've, I don't know.

1:45:00

We have the same problem, north of the border.

1:45:02

We have a Christian,

1:45:06

we have the conservative party

1:45:07

that was taken over by the Christian right.

1:45:08

It was the Alliance Party from Alberta,

1:45:13

there's some of the craziest guys you could find.

1:45:17

Our Prime Minister knows what's right, you know?

1:45:19

And he's absolutely sure he knows what's right.

1:45:24

Similarly, down here.

1:45:27

When you look at the debates,

1:45:28

when you look at these Republican debates,

1:45:31

it's about who could out-talk someone else

1:45:34

about standing up for patriotism.

1:45:38

One of the two greatest areas for rogues to hide,

1:45:40

patriotism and religion.

1:45:46

So it's, we're not just talking

1:45:48

about the Bush administration anymore.

1:45:52

We're talking 11 years on.

1:45:54

Peter

Some people were saying

1:45:56

that they don't want to release Omar

1:45:57

because if he ever talks about how he was treated

1:45:59

and those years in Guantanamo,

1:46:02

people don't want to hear that.

1:46:04

Do you think there's any truth to that?

1:46:06

-

Well, I don't know.

1:46:10

I don't buy that.

1:46:12

I have an affidavit that's incredibly long,

1:46:14

that I put before the court

1:46:18

talking about his mistreatment.

1:46:21

I sat with Omar, when I wrote that.

1:46:22

I even got him to strip for me and Nate,

1:46:26

and I interviewed him, as you're interviewing me

1:46:30

with Nate writing everything down and drawing Omar.

1:46:34

Has the, of course.

1:46:38

The government may have try to figure out my strategy,

1:46:41

I have no doubt, my strategy was quite simple.

1:46:46

I'd written to the government,

1:46:50

given them notice as I always do,

1:46:51

and my notice was, when Omar comes back,

1:46:53

we presume he was is dealt with as a child

1:46:58

under juvenile provisions, because he was 15 years of age

1:47:02

and that's what the Canadian court says.

1:47:05

Do you have any, if you have any dispute

1:47:07

about that definition, please let us know now, okay?

1:47:08

And we got no answer.

1:47:15

And then I sent it again as I do,

1:47:18

because they know our game-plan.

1:47:20

I invited American officials to come to Canada,

1:47:23

or I'll come down, and we'll just examine them.

1:47:27

Of course, you get no answer.

1:47:31

But then, under the juvenile provisions,

1:47:34

if you have spent one year serving a sentence,

1:47:38

and one can show that you can get better rehabilitation

1:47:43

elsewhere other than a prison,

1:47:47

you can make an application to the court to do so.

1:47:50

And so, I intended to do Guantanamo too.

1:47:54

If a judge, if Canada were to challenge that

1:48:01

which I have thought they wouldn't,

1:48:05

we have to challenge that, then I would show various things.

1:48:07

I'd show how, first of all, we have Supreme Court ruling

1:48:11

saying that Canada had participated in torture of Omar,

1:48:13

so they owe him something.

1:48:16

Two, is I would have brought the same witnesses,

1:48:18

I'd brought Damien Corsetti.

1:48:21

I would've brought all kinds of people and run a trial.

1:48:23

A trial in Canada under Canadian rules, under our charter,

1:48:28

it would have gone on for years.

1:48:31

Would have been wonderful.

1:48:33

Peter

Showing how he was mistreated?

1:48:34

-

Showing how he was mistreated.

1:48:36

Peter

Can you just tell us a little bit

1:48:40

about how he was mistreated or?

1:48:41

-

Sure.

1:48:44

From early days, from Bagram for example,

1:48:48

I remember Omar describing the hospital he was in,

1:48:52

and I remember him saying,

1:48:57

"You know, Dennis,

1:48:58

there was nothing but constant cries from pain.

1:49:00

Pain from people who been injured,

1:49:03

and pain for being people who had been tortured.

1:49:05

Every bed was a torture-chamber."

1:49:08

We have, we tried to bring a particular,

1:49:12

find a particular soldier who was in charge

1:49:15

of the ward Omar was in.

1:49:17

And what he would do just, this is not torture,

1:49:18

but just, the way he was treated,

1:49:21

he was a kid, remember and his body was.

1:49:22

He would take his pants off, show the nurses,

1:49:24

stick his bum in Omar's face and fart.

1:49:27

Invariably, he laughed.

1:49:30

Okay, that's a child.

1:49:32

He saw people killed, in Bagram,

1:49:35

and Moazzam Begg says the same thing.

1:49:37

But from the moment Omar woke up,

1:49:40

I think he was unconscious almost three days,

1:49:43

that he was then put into stress-positions,

1:49:46

to be questioned.

1:49:49

Now remember when he woke up, he was like Dracula.

1:49:49

He had more tubes coming off him,

1:49:52

and then they'd have him on a night-shift.

1:49:55

And remember when you're talking in a torture culture,

1:49:57

you don't talk about torture or abuse.

1:50:02

You like the frequent flyer program.

1:50:06

The night-shift was, Omar would carry buckets of water,

1:50:08

from one end of the hallway to the other.

1:50:14

And the medical records

1:50:16

that we were able to get for the trial some of it,

1:50:17

the nurses were talking about

1:50:20

how his wounds were seeping from carrying these barrels.

1:50:22

And then, I always liked the crucifixion one much better,

1:50:26

which is pretty common in Guantanamo.

1:50:30

Where you put somebody, you've seen the pictures of it

1:50:34

from Abu Ghraib, where you stand in between a doorway,

1:50:37

the jam of a doorway, and your arms are stretched

1:50:45

as far as they can and you're on your tip-toes.

1:50:48

And you're left there,

1:50:53

think if you stand like a ballet-dancer on your tip-toes.

1:50:54

You see in the Abu Ghraib pictures,

1:50:57

and Damien Corsetti can talk about that.

1:51:00

Peter

They did that in Guantanamo too?

1:51:03

They did that, no, they did that in Abu Ghraib.

1:51:04

And then they push your face against the wall,

1:51:07

'til you pass out.

1:51:15

That's a great everyday treatment in Guantanamo.

1:51:17

And Omar then would, in the hospital,

1:51:20

he would then pee himself.

1:51:25

And what happens when you pee yourself?

1:51:27

I humiliate you.

1:51:29

And remember, he's 15,

1:51:31

and he's dealing with the good guys.

1:51:36

And so, how confused he must've felt

1:51:38

and the power he was able to witness.

1:51:42

And so, his head then was used as a mop,

1:51:45

to clean up the pee.

1:51:47

This is when he was ill.

1:51:50

This is when he was recovering.

1:51:53

And then, you talk about stress positions.

1:51:56

And he was friendly with an old guy

1:51:58

who was killed in Guantanamo, in Bagram,

1:52:00

Moazzam tried to assist him,

1:52:04

because he was the young kid.

1:52:07

And then you get put on these planes,

1:52:10

and people don't, I actually mentioned that on Tuesday.

1:52:13

For the watching world,

1:52:18

you didn't need any education in international law

1:52:20

to understand what was taking place was unlawful.

1:52:23

But, they would put in the journey

1:52:25

from Bagram to Guantanamo,

1:52:28

they were not allowed to move.

1:52:30

And there weren't given food or water, why?

1:52:32

'Cause you don't want him to pee or shit on the plane.

1:52:35

I don't know, 12, 13 hour and they've got to stand.

1:52:40

And then when they got off, it was like dumping cargo.

1:52:43

And then as soon as they got off the plane,

1:52:47

and off the, put on these trucks,

1:52:49

and then taken into the airport area where I've been,

1:52:51

then they're put up against the walls,

1:52:56

and then they start to be abused.

1:52:58

And all I don't know what, I was about the crucifixion.

1:53:02

But other than the crucifixion,

1:53:08

everything that went on in Bagram continued in Guantanamo.

1:53:10

And Omar says that.

1:53:15

But, who knows it even better?

1:53:19

Corsetti, what with, what is his name,

1:53:27

he's the chap in charge of, I forget.

1:53:31

Louise

Miller?

1:53:39

-

No, Corsetti's military, is interrogation team in Bagram,

1:53:40

his leader was charged with killing a detainee

1:53:50

and crippling others.

1:53:57

I forget his name, it'll come to me.

1:53:59

But they were so successful.

1:54:05

They were so successful this group,

1:54:07

and it just continued to bleed over to Guantanamo.

1:54:10

Peter

And the fact that Omar was a juvenile,

1:54:13

d'you think, never played into his treatment.

1:54:14

People didn't care more for him 'cause he's a juvenile?

1:54:18

-

Well, you know what Corsetti says, he said,

1:54:23

"I was easy on him, because he was a kid,

1:54:25

but I did terrible things."

1:54:28

Peter

Well, Omar, I guess we're almost over with.

1:54:36

Will Omar, you think, if he does come out, ever heal?

1:54:38

Do you think the monastery is the way to go, to heal him?

1:54:41

-

My fear, I'm always strategizing.

1:54:46

And so my strategy was to be able to take the government on,

1:54:50

I had to have a rehabilitation plan for Omar

1:54:55

to combat the government.

1:55:00

Otherwise they have free rein

1:55:01

on this unrepentant jihadist terrorist.

1:55:03

And so, I had a legal team, I had a medical team,

1:55:07

an educational team, I had a home, and so on.

1:55:12

What will happen, when Omar gets out,

1:55:19

if he gets out,

1:55:22

he will be put into a top-security prison, near Montreal

1:55:23

where some of my terrorist convicted clients will be.

1:55:28

Peter

And how long will he be there?

1:55:34

-

I don't know.

1:55:36

One of my concerns as I reiterated

1:55:42

or I stated earlier in this interview,

1:55:46

was how there's no record to combat Welner's assessment

1:55:49

of Omar Khadr.

1:55:57

And without establishing that record,

1:56:01

our government is entitled to protect the Canadian public

1:56:05

in it's best interest.

1:56:08

Under terrorist provisions,

1:56:11

we can keep them for a long time.

1:56:14

We can lock them away.

1:56:17

Peter

Is there something else

1:56:22

you'd like to tell us Dennis, that I didn't ask you

1:56:23

just as your career and how you see the world

1:56:26

and we were all, you kind of spoke to all of that,

1:56:31

but is there-

1:56:35

-

I (stammering)

I have worked hard,

1:56:42

not to allow the Guantanamo process

1:56:44

and by the Guantanamo process,

1:56:46

I mean, all that goes with it.

1:56:48

Courts down, North American courts,

1:56:51

(indistinct) society.

1:56:56

I have worked hard to make sure

1:56:59

that it doesn't make me a bitter individual.

1:57:01

It doesn't damage me, it can damage you.

1:57:05

I have the same belief that I say to Omar,

1:57:09

you must always have hope.

1:57:12

If you don't have hope, then you can get lost

1:57:13

in that darkness, and there is a darkness.

1:57:16

The new journey, in this political climate today,

1:57:20

it is black, it is dark, it is evil, it is scary,

1:57:23

because it goes against the fundamental values

1:57:29

of the people who created this country and created Canada,

1:57:32

and worked so hard over the generations

1:57:35

to make us become more aware

1:57:39

about how to be a more human society.

1:57:41

So, I'm not quite sure where I am today, I'm a bit tired.

1:57:44

And, I'm a bit tired.

1:57:54

Peter

I think we all.

1:57:59

(both wryly chuckling)

1:58:00

We need to take 20 seconds of silence,

1:58:03

Johnny needs to use that before we quit, so.

1:58:07

-

Okay.

1:58:11

Johnny

Begin room-tone.

1:58:13

End room-tone.

1:58:28

Peter

That was a winner.

1:58:30

Edney, Dennis - Interview master file

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