Rossdale, Polly - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Producer

We're rolling.

0:05

Interviewer

Okay, good evening.

0:06

-

Good evening, nice to see you.

0:07

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:08

for participating in the "Witness to Guantanamo" project.

0:10

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:13

and observations of men in Guantanamo.

0:16

And we are hoping to provide you with the opportunity

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to tell your story in your own words

0:23

about your observations and experiences.

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And we are creating an archive of stories

0:30

so that people in America and around the world

0:33

will have a better understanding

0:36

of what you have observed.

0:37

And future generations must know

0:41

what happened to Guantanamo.

0:44

And by telling you a story,

0:45

you're contributing to history.

0:47

And if there's chance you want to take a break

0:50

or a pause, anything, please let us know

0:52

and we'll be glad to do that.

0:54

And if there's something

0:56

that you said you'd like to pull out,

0:58

we'll be glad to pull it out

1:00

if let us know in time too.

1:01

And we'd like to begin by asking you your name

1:03

and where you were born and where you're living now.

1:05

-

My name isPolly Rossdale.

1:10

I was born in London, in the UK

1:12

and I live and work in Athens, Greece now.

1:14

Interviewer

And your birth and how old you're now

1:17

and a little bit about education too.

1:21

-

I was born in 1978.

1:24

I'm 38.

1:27

And my background is in social anthropology

1:28

and human rights.

1:32

Interviewer

And did you go...

1:33

All your schooling was in London?

1:34

-

My schooling was in London,

1:37

was at University of Cambridge

1:40

and then a master's at the University of Venice.

1:41

Interviewer

And after you completed your master's,

1:45

what happened then?

1:47

-

After I completed my master's,

1:50

I came to work at Reprieve.

1:51

Interviewer

How did that happen?

1:53

-

Because prior to my masters,

1:55

I had been working at a torture rehabilitation center

1:57

in London called the Helen Bamber Foundation,

1:59

which provided medical and psychological care

2:03

for victims of gross human rights violations.

2:05

Helen Bamber was a woman who had started working

2:08

in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp

2:10

when she was just 19 years old

2:12

and had dedicated her whole life

2:14

to working with survivors.

2:16

And we were approached by Chloe Davies at Reprieve

2:18

about whether the foundation would be able

2:22

to provide support, a specialist support

2:24

to some of the British former detainees

2:27

who had been released from Guantanamo.

2:29

Interviewer

And how did that happen?

2:31

Like you've been left one for the other.

2:32

-

Well, I left to do my masters realizing

2:35

that I needed some kind of intellectual framework.

2:38

I'd been working with refugees and torture survivors

2:42

for several years at that point.

2:44

And I realized I needed more academic framework.

2:46

So, I left it in my masters.

2:49

And when I came back, Chloe said to me,

2:51

"When you remember that idea I had a few years ago

2:54

to start this project"

2:59

which I had thought, "Well, that's a great idea,

3:00

but good luck getting funding for that."

3:01

And off she did.

3:05

Off she went and persuaded the UN Voluntary Funds

3:06

to give us a small amount of funding.

3:09

Initially, I think just for six months.

3:11

Interviewer

And so, she had you in mind all along,

3:13

she was waiting for you to...

3:15

-

That would be a nice way of thinking of it.

3:18

I don't know if she had me in mind,

3:21

but certainly, she gave me a call at that point

3:23

and said, "Was I available to apply for the post?"

3:25

And I thought that was a very interesting

3:27

and exciting opportunity.

3:29

Interviewer

Before we go into that,

3:32

do you have training when you first started

3:33

that work with the torture victims?

3:35

-

I'd done some training in refugee law

3:39

and immigration law.

3:42

Most of my experience had been providing

3:44

sort of pastoral care and welfare support

3:47

in community setting.

3:50

Interviewer

And in terms of

3:53

understanding torture victims,

3:55

were there actual courses

3:57

that you took in that field?

3:59

-

Well, I had mentoring from colleagues

4:03

at the Helen Bamber Foundation.

4:05

I'd done courses in the impact of genocide as well.

4:07

Interviewer

So, when you started working at Reprieve,

4:12

did you feel you'd understand

4:14

the people you were gonna meet?

4:16

-

Well, I should be clear about what

4:20

the Life out of Guantanamo project was.

4:21

It was never designed to give direct psychological

4:23

or medical support.

4:27

We weren't qualified to do that.

4:28

It was designed to facilitate

4:30

and coordinate access to specialist services.

4:32

As a project, we knew we would be working

4:37

in multiple countries,

4:39

in multiple different cultural

4:41

and geographical settings and political settings.

4:43

Wouldn't really be impossible to design a program

4:46

where you could have provided

4:48

all of the support directly.

4:50

The idea was just to facilitate structures

4:52

that allow men to get access to the help they needed.

4:55

Interviewer

So, how did it begin?

4:58

Did you begin with the men in the UK?

5:00

-

No.

5:03

So, the idea really was...

5:04

This is back in the house in days

5:06

when Obama had just announced

5:08

that he was going to close Guantanamo.

5:10

So obviously, he made this pledge on the campaign trail.

5:11

And then I think two days after taking office,

5:15

he issued the executive order to close the prison

5:17

and looking back naively now,

5:20

we thought that was actually

5:24

what was going to happen.

5:25

And so, we were aware that at that time,

5:28

there were about 60 men

5:31

who had been cleared for release,

5:33

but who were not gonna be able

5:36

to go back home to their own countries

5:37

because of the risk of torture or persecution.

5:40

So, the concept of the life after Guantanamo project

5:42

was that it would provide,

5:45

facilitate access to medical, psychological,

5:49

social and legal support for those men.

5:51

So, who were released to third countries

5:53

because the idea was that they were men

5:56

who would be in particularly need

5:58

because they wouldn't have their families.

6:00

They wouldn't necessarily speak the language,

6:02

be familiar with the culture.

6:04

And that had already grown out of the work

6:06

that Reprieve had done to try

6:08

and support its client Binyam Mohamed

6:09

who was released in January, 2009.

6:13

Interviewer

Can you tell us who he is

6:17

for people that don't know?

6:19

-

Binyam Mohamed was represented

6:20

by Clive Stafford Smith at Reprieve.

6:23

He had been born in Ethiopia,

6:26

but had come to the UK as a young teenager.

6:29

But when he was finally released back to the UK,

6:34

he didn't have much of a support network.

6:41

His legal status was still unclear

6:44

and he needed a lot of support

6:48

because he'd been brutally tortured

6:48

in Afghanistan and in Morocco.

6:51

Interviewer

And so, you did work with him?

6:54

-

This was before I arrived at Reprieve.

6:56

So, Chloe Davis had worked with him

6:58

amongst other people at Reprieve.

7:01

Interviewer

And she just set you off on your own?

7:03

-

Well, we were a team, we were a small team.

7:07

We were very fortunate to have the assistance

7:13

of some of the former Guantanamo detainees themselves,

7:15

Bisher al-Rawi and Omar Deghayes,

7:20

who it was really crucial to have their perspective

7:24

and their understanding and their support

7:27

and helps us sort of guide

7:30

and shape the nature of the project

7:32

and how we would best going

7:34

to be able to help the men.

7:35

Interviewer

They didn't travel with you, right?

7:37

-

No!

7:39

Interviewer

Did they...

7:41

-

They were in the office.

7:41

They were on the desk next door.

7:42

Interviewer

Did they suggest who you should visit

7:44

or did they just give you...

7:45

What did they provide for you?

7:47

-

Well, many things really.

7:49

I think most importantly,

7:52

an insight into the kinds of issues

7:54

that the men would be facing,

7:56

but also more practical things together with them

7:58

and a clinical psychologist called Brock Chism.

8:02

We developed a self-help manual in Arabic

8:06

and in English for men who had been released

8:10

because of course, one of the many stumbling blocks

8:14

is that they find themselves either in a place

8:17

where there aren't really appropriately skilled,

8:23

mental health conditions.

8:26

And of course, there are many reasons

8:27

as well why they wouldn't want

8:29

to consult a psychologist themselves.

8:30

Part of that might be cultural,

8:33

but of course, more importantly,

8:34

because of the complicity of medical professionals

8:36

in Guantanamo themselves.

8:40

So, huge mistrust

8:41

about trusting psychologists and doctors.

8:43

So, the idea was that,

8:47

if we could provide a self-help manual

8:49

that had been written in collaboration

8:51

with Bisher and Omar, that would go some way

8:53

to sort of opening the door to healing.

8:59

Interviewer

And then, how would you find

9:02

the men to visit

9:03

and who was the first person you went to visit?

9:04

How did that work?

9:06

-

So, men could come to us in any number of ways.

9:09

So, their lawyers could refer them to us.

9:14

They could self refer to us

9:17

and often they were Reprieve clients.

9:19

So, that was an important continuity of course

9:22

that even though I didn't visit Guantanamo,

9:24

I'm not an American citizen,

9:28

that there was a continuity between the fact

9:31

that either Clive or Cory or Tara Marie

9:33

or any of the other attorneys, Zachary Katznelson

9:37

who'd known them in Guantanamo,

9:41

had told them about either myself or Chloe

9:43

about the office project

9:47

so that they knew if and when they finally got out,

9:49

there was going to be someone who was connected,

9:54

if not the same that to system.

9:55

And I think actually that sort of same,

9:58

but different was quite important

10:00

because I wasn't somebody who they'd seen

10:02

in this terrible place,

10:08

but I was somebody who they could imagine

10:09

that I might have some inkling

10:12

of what had happened there.

10:15

Interviewer

So, can you tell us

10:18

an actual visit with someone and whether...

10:19

So, they knew you were coming

10:23

and can I say they welcomed you

10:25

or are they uncomfortable with your coming?

10:27

-

We wouldn't go anywhere where we were unsolicited.

10:30

(Polly laughs)

10:32

We only went at the request of the men and the lawyers

10:34

or indeed any other organization

10:40

who had direct contact with them men.

10:43

But the first visit I went on was

10:45

in the autumn of 2009.

10:53

And I went to visit Sabir Lahmar in France

10:59

and he had been released off

11:03

to seven years of indefinite detention.

11:05

He was one of the so-called Boumediene six

11:07

I think several months previously to that,

11:11

Lakhdar Boumediene had also been released to France.

11:13

And I went to his request

11:17

and the request of his lawyers at WilmerHale.

11:19

Interviewer

And how did that seem to you?

11:22

Were you prepared for that

11:26

or were you surprised at what you met?

11:27

-

It's an experience I'll remember

11:31

for the rest of my life, actually.

11:32

For several reasons, the WilmerHale lawyers

11:37

had a good relationship with the French government

11:41

and therefore had good access to understanding

11:44

what Sabir might expect when he landed.

11:47

That also meant...

11:50

They were not able to be in France themselves

11:51

so they were sort of sending me as emissary as it were.

11:53

But it meant that I was able

11:58

to be on the tarmac watching as the plane came down

12:00

with lawyers from WilmerHale

12:03

sending me text messages saying,

12:05

"Can you see plane?

12:07

Can you see the plane?"

12:08

(Polly laughs)

12:09

And this is at 2, 2:00 AM, 3:00 AM

12:10

in a military base in the middle

12:12

of the French countryside.

12:13

-

They let you to the tarmac?

12:16

-

Yeah!

They let us on to the tarmac.

12:18

We were in parts of the welcome group

12:19

with the US ambassador to France had come down.

12:21

Someone strangely from

12:25

the Department for Prevention of Kidnapping.

12:28

-

The French department?

12:33

-

The French department!

(Polly laughs)

12:34

And then Sabir came off the plane.

12:38

And what I remember really is seeing how small

12:42

this man looked in the face

12:47

of this huge military machinery and equipment

12:48

and how the soldiers were continuing

12:54

to film him as he even got off the plane.

12:55

And he told me once we were alone together

12:59

that they'd filmed him throughout the flight,

13:01

that he'd been shackled and gagled

13:03

and had ear defenders on throughout the flight.

13:05

And that was a long flight

13:09

because it had stopped in two other country,

13:10

in Hungary and Italy prior to dropping Sabir in France.

13:14

And I remember days,

13:23

but warm greeting from him.

13:26

Interviewer

He knew to expect you?

13:29

-

Yeah, he knew to expect me.

13:31

Interviewer

And did you then escort him

13:32

or accompany him to his home?

13:33

-

Yeah, so, he had some time to debrief.

13:36

He had a medical check and-

13:41

-

By the French government?

-

I believe it was by the Red Cross.

13:48

And then yeah, much to my surprise,

13:54

they permitted us, myself and a French lawyer

13:57

appointed by WilmerHale to drive him

14:00

to a military hospital where he was going to stay

14:05

for some days to be checked out.

14:07

That's the only time I've had an experience like that.

14:10

I think if there's one,

14:12

well, the many things I've learned about life

14:14

after Guantanamo is that you can't predict

14:17

what these releases are going to be like

14:18

and that access was on unparalleled.

14:19

Interviewer

And were you able to visit him

14:24

in the military hospital?

14:25

-

Yes.

14:27

So, I stayed for a week or so

14:28

and I visited him there

14:31

and then helped him move into his own apartment.

14:32

Interviewer

And did you find the resources

14:36

for him during that week?

14:39

Was that part of (indistinct)?

14:41

-

So, I was really there to assess and to check out

14:42

what resources were going to be provided

14:46

by the French government.

14:47

And they had appointed a local NGO

14:48

which whose normal kind of day-to-day work

14:51

was providing social support to refugees and migrants.

14:54

So, it was not inappropriate.

14:58

Interviewer

Can you speak French?

15:01

-

Yes.

15:02

Interviewer

And then after that-

15:03

-

And I spoke French with Sabir.

15:04

Interviewer

And after that week,

15:09

did you return to see him?

15:10

-

I saw him on one another time.

15:11

We were in regular phone contact for awhile.

15:14

And then I saw him, I think about a year later.

15:16

Interviewer

After that experience probably,

15:19

did that change the way you saw people from Guantanamo

15:21

or did you need to see more people from Guantanamo

15:25

before you begin to get a sense

15:27

of who these people were?

15:28

-

Who they are is varied as who we all are.

15:31

Sabir was a very fascinating, very intelligent,

15:39

is a very intelligent man.

15:42

And I enjoyed spending time with him.

15:45

His situation like many men's was very tragic

15:49

and his torture had been very brutal.

15:55

He'd spent a long time in solitary confinement as well.

15:57

So, did I get a sense of what was to come?

16:02

Yes and no.

16:05

Interviewer

So, I don't mean to go up

16:07

to every person you met,

16:08

but I think it's important

16:09

to just kind of see how it evolved.

16:11

Who was the next person, then (indistinct).

16:14

If you don't remember that we can talk more generally.

16:17

-

So, that autumn began a kind of flurry

16:19

of activity for us and releases.

16:22

So, we're talking about

16:26

the autumn winter of 2009, 2010.

16:27

So, I think there were other releases,

16:32

I'd have to double check,

16:36

I think, to Germany later that year,

16:36

but we were gearing up

16:39

to do a big advocacy campaign around

16:42

the 8th anniversary of the opening of Guantanamo

16:44

on the January, the 11th, 2010,

16:46

which we would always do on every anniversary.

16:50

It hadn't no...

16:53

In those days that felt like we

16:55

had something novel to say.

16:59

So, we were doing a campaign.

17:04

We were doing advocacy

17:06

with the Center for Constitutional Rights with Amnesty.

17:07

We did a European tour.

17:10

One of the things that I think I would learn

17:13

over the course of that campaign

17:15

and over the next couple of years, of course,

17:18

was that rather bitterly and ironically,

17:20

the countries who had been most vocal in calling

17:25

for the closure of Guantanamo wander Bush

17:27

were not the ones who stepped forward

17:29

to help close it when the time came.

17:31

We were in several of the Nordic countries.

17:34

We were in Sweden, in Norway,

17:36

in Luxembourg, in Germany,

17:39

places where you'd think that we would

17:44

have been welcomed with a more open door.

17:46

Well, so anyway!

17:52

Certainly, in the Scandinavian countries

17:53

and they didn't end up taking anyone for resettlement.

17:56

Interviewer

Did they have any reasons for that?

18:01

-

I suspect that their internal political reasons

18:05

about a fear of immigration

18:09

and their small populations.

18:11

I also think that UNHCRs refusal

18:15

to do refugee status determinations in Guantanamo.

18:20

Suddenly, that was what we heard

18:23

as a justification whether that was an excuse

18:25

or reality, I don't know,

18:28

but several countries of course use UNHCR

18:30

for their own refugee status determination procedures.

18:33

They outsource it as it were.

18:36

And the fact that UNHCR didn't want

18:40

to touch Guantanamo with a barge pole didn't help.

18:42

Interviewer

Do you know why they wouldn't?

18:45

-

US is a major funder, I would have (indistinct).

18:48

(both laughing)

18:51

Well, because if you have to demonstrate

18:53

that you're a refugee,

18:56

you have to show a well-founded fear of persecution

18:56

and who is your persecutor?

18:59

Interviewer

So, you become more cynical

19:04

as the days went on.

19:05

-

I'm not sure that that has been my,

19:08

but that doesn't even count as cynicism as logic,

19:09

but maybe that answers your question.

19:11

(both laughing)

19:14

Interviewer

So, the countries that took

19:16

the men tended to be poor countries,

19:18

is that correct?

19:21

-

Right!

I think I was in Sweden

19:24

and I got the call that Slovakia had taken more men.

19:26

And so, Slovakia, really!

19:30

So, Slovakia I think then...

19:35

I may get the order slightly wrong,

19:38

but Slovakia, Albania, Georgia happened

19:39

within the few months of each other in 2010.

19:42

Well, Albania had taken men before,

19:46

but Slovakia and Georgia that was new.

19:49

And that was an interesting indication to us

19:51

as you say that there were poor countries,

19:54

they weren't countries world-renowned

19:57

for their human rights record.

19:59

Not necessarily a country either,

20:03

but they hadn't been vocal

20:04

in calling for the closure.

20:08

So, either myself or my colleague at the time, Chloe

20:12

would visited the men on release there.

20:16

I went to Albania and to Georgia,

20:19

Chloe went to Slovakia.

20:21

Interviewer

Did you find that their resources

20:26

were not as strong as what you saw for Sabir in France?

20:29

And how did you react to that?

20:32

What can you do about that?

20:37

-

Certainly, the situation in Albania was dire.

20:38

When we arrived there with lawyers

20:42

for the Center for Constitutional Rights

20:45

whose clients had also been released,

20:47

the men were detained in an immigration center

20:52

and we weren't initially permitted access.

20:55

And even getting access to the government officials

20:58

was extremely difficult.

21:00

And Albania is a very poor country.

21:02

And what was also a country

21:04

that was extremely closed off from the world

21:06

under dictatorship for many, many years.

21:08

And it was very difficult

21:12

to have a constructive dialogue

21:14

with the authorities there

21:15

about what the needs of these men were

21:17

and in even why we were there

21:19

and that our intentions were good,

21:21

that we wanted to offer support

21:24

and ensure the men had access

21:25

to the right kinds of support.

21:27

Interviewer

Were they not interested

21:29

in speaking to you or they just wouldn't know how

21:30

to just say, hearing, listening.

21:32

-

We did eventually managed to get meetings

21:35

with relevant people in the Ministry of Interior

21:38

and the Commissioner for Refugees.

21:41

I didn't have the sense that they understood

21:43

in any measure what the man had been through

21:49

and what their needs were

21:50

or that they were driven by any kind

21:53

of humanitarian imperative.

21:55

Interviewer

Could you look for private sources

21:57

outside of the government to help the men?

21:58

-

We have sometimes done that on occasion

22:01

and there is a torture rehabilitation center in Tirana,

22:03

but, again these are very under-resourced places

22:09

with a very particular experience

22:15

of helping Albanian survivors.

22:17

And one of the things I learnt over time

22:22

is that whilst undoubtedly

22:26

what happened in Guantanamo is torture,

22:29

it's a very particular kind of torture

22:31

and really a very particular

22:35

kind of psychological torture.

22:36

The kind that only sometimes leaves physical scars,

22:41

but immense invisible ones that requires real skill

22:46

to know how to respond to, I think.

22:52

Interviewer

So, I'm sorry to ask you this,

22:55

but was there a benefit in your visiting with them?

22:59

-

In Albania?

23:03

No, I think that's a reasonable question.

23:04

I don't think we were really able.

23:06

Well, that's not strictly true.

23:08

We managed to get access to the men at the beginning

23:11

and eventually, by the end of the stay,

23:15

we were able to take them out of the center

23:18

for a day or an afternoon

23:20

and take them shopping get them some clothes

23:22

and some shoes and some absolute basic necessities.

23:25

So, maybe it's sticking plaster, it's nothing,

23:28

but it showed that we were there

23:33

and they weren't abandoned,

23:36

they weren't forgotten.

23:37

And I think that had we not been there,

23:38

they wouldn't have known that.

23:43

And I think it showed the authorities

23:45

that there were people watching the situation as well.

23:47

In terms of real enduring improvements.

23:50

No, I think it was extremely difficult to make progress.

23:55

In fact, my colleague, Katie Taylor went back again

23:57

to try and deal with other issues that apply

24:01

to our Egyptian client who was there,

24:04

but they faced enormous stigma in trying to...

24:08

It was very difficult for them

24:14

once they were released from the detention center

24:16

to integrate into wellbeing and life.

24:18

Interviewer

Can you tell us a little bit

24:21

about their financial situations?

24:22

How did they survive?

24:27

-

They got a stipend from the Albanian government.

24:28

Interviewer

Which do you think came from the US?

24:32

-

I imagine!

24:34

Interviewer

And how long did that stipend continue

24:35

and how much was the stipend?

24:38

-

I don't recall how much the stipend was.

24:40

It continued for a number of years.

24:44

I think one of the difficulties we saw

24:46

again and again in many countries

24:48

was that there was very little clarity

24:50

over what the plan was for any of these men.

24:54

And that was...

24:56

Whilst you or I might be able to live with that,

24:57

that's enormously difficult for somebody

24:59

who's been in indefinite detention by definition.

25:01

knowing how long something is going to last,

25:06

how long you're going to be supported for,

25:09

when something is going to end,

25:11

takes on inordinate meaning.

25:13

Interviewer

Would they ask you that question?

25:16

-

Yeah and you just had a real sense

25:18

as well of insecurity.

25:21

Interviewer

And were you able to bring families

25:27

to these countries?

25:30

-

So, the ICRC was usually responsible

25:32

for family reunifications.

25:35

Interviewer

Were they able to succeed?

25:38

-

You mean specifically in Albania or?

25:43

It varied in different places

25:46

and what the obstacles were varied too.

25:48

Sometimes they were obstacles generated

25:51

by the host country.

25:55

Sometimes they were difficulties

25:56

for the family leaving where they were.

25:58

Interviewer

Could men call you in London and say,

26:03

"Look, my stipend didn't come"

26:06

or some other issue they had,

26:09

if they were ill

26:11

and they couldn't get medical care,

26:12

would they call you?

26:12

And then what would you do?

26:14

-

(indistinct) of Skype.

26:15

Interviewer

Really?

26:17

-

Yeah!

Interviewer

And what would you do at that point?

26:19

Could you fly there the next day to help them?

26:21

Or what would do?

26:23

-

As I said, we were not trying

26:25

to make ourselves the go-to person.

26:27

We wanted to find people on the ground

26:31

who are gonna be that because ultimately,

26:32

that's what was gonna be most helpful.

26:34

So, yeah, usually that's what we do.

26:38

We try and either identify

26:40

or develop a network of people, individuals

26:43

and people in NGOs usually.

26:47

Or if not in NGOs

26:49

and in the appropriate part of government

26:50

who would be able to assist them

26:52

with exactly those kinds of practical issues.

26:54

When I say people in the appropriate part of government,

26:59

that's another problem that we saw again and again,

27:02

was that the wrong departments,

27:05

the wrong individuals were tasked

27:10

with overseeing these resettlements.

27:13

Often, they were members of the security services

27:15

or of the interior ministry,

27:17

rather than what you'd normally think of

27:19

if you're going to be dealing with a refugee case

27:21

or a human rights case or a medical case,

27:24

that'd be shared with the Ministry of Health

27:27

or immigration or social affairs.

27:29

So, if you want to have people

27:32

who know about integration.

27:35

Interviewer

If I'm gonna be cynical for a moment

27:40

or maybe not, wouldn't you say that was deliberate

27:41

that my understanding was the US asked all

27:44

these countries to keep an eye on the men

27:47

so that in fact, the security agents would be

27:50

the ones most prevalent, most prominent.

27:52

-

Yeah.

27:55

But again, it absolutely continues

27:56

this security imperative,

27:58

which is what drove everything since 911,

28:02

but it doesn't actually get you

28:07

out of the problem, does it?

28:08

Because if you want men to be able to recover

28:10

and start life again,

28:13

you need to help give them the tools

28:16

to be able to do that.

28:19

Interviewer

Well, you really saying that

28:20

if US doesn't really care the men recover,

28:24

is that...

28:27

-

I think they're very...

28:28

I think it's been incredibly short-sighted

28:29

in its policies and in its actions.

28:33

Interviewer

When you say that if the US

28:37

was just depositing the men,

28:39

I'm sorry to use that term,

28:41

but in these countries,

28:42

giving some money to the country to supervise them

28:45

and basically, keep an eye on them

28:48

and then walk away from it.

28:51

Am I describing that somewhat accurately?

28:54

Is that what you saw?

28:57

-

I don't think that that's what happened

28:59

in every resettlement,

29:01

but I think that's probably what happened

29:03

in the majority of resettlements.

29:04

Interviewer

And how would you explain that?

29:08

-

From the US perspective?

29:14

-

Yeah!

-

As I say, I think it's just incredibly short-sighted.

29:18

To be charitable,

29:23

I think the State Department

29:24

and the Special Envoy's Office

29:25

had a very difficult task

29:27

because what they were doing

29:28

was making a diplomatic ask that was saying,

29:32

"Please do something that we don't wanna do ourselves."

29:35

That's a very difficult thing to do.

29:40

And in fact, I've had members

29:41

of foreign government say that to me.

29:43

It's like, "We're clearing up their mess."

29:44

That's certainly how they felt.

29:47

So, yeah, that's a charitable perspective on it,

29:51

but from my point of view, well, what do you do?

29:57

You should change the narrative.

30:00

And all of this comes actually, I think

30:01

from Obama saying very early on,

30:06

"We're gonna look forward

30:07

so we're not gonna look back."

30:09

And yeah, we tortured a bunch of folks."

30:09

If you don't change that narrative,

30:13

how do you expect everyone else

30:16

to have a different narrative?

30:17

Interviewer

Did people ever ask you

30:19

from these countries why would

30:21

the US take them to Europe?

30:22

-

Yeah, yeah!

30:23

I'd have to give a very sort of

30:25

tedious answer about Congress restrictions

30:28

that Congress had put in place,

30:32

the National Defense Authorization Act,

30:33

but it comes down to the story that was being told

30:35

and no one ever took time to undo

30:37

the Rumsfeldian worst of the worst story.

30:40

Not even that they took time,

30:44

they actively decided not to.

30:46

Interviewer

So, were there are some countries that...

30:49

'Cause you said not all

30:51

and were there some countries

30:52

that actually embraced the men

30:53

that actually welcomed them

30:55

and really did care for?

30:56

-

Yeah, I think there were a number of countries

31:00

who could be cited

31:02

as best practice examples of resettlement.

31:03

I would say Germany is one of those countries.

31:09

And I think whilst perhaps

31:13

not a best practice example,

31:16

I think the Uruguayan government

31:17

genuinely resettlement for humanitarian reasons.

31:19

Interviewer

Could you tell us a little bit about that

31:24

and why that was unique to you?

31:25

-

So, Uruguay was the first Latin American resettlement.

31:29

Sorry, not that!

31:31

The first South American resettlement.

31:33

El Salvador was the first.

31:34

Well, I think what became apparent

31:43

when we visited Uruguayan and in our conversations

31:46

with the Uruguayan authorities,

31:50

was that the decision to take men

31:53

had been taken by President Mojica personally,

31:57

but also in his team around him,

32:00

by men who had firsthand experience

32:03

of indefinite detention and torture themselves.

32:06

Mojica himself had been in prison for 13 years.

32:09

That made a huge difference

32:14

because they saw these men as compadres.

32:16

And there was huge...

32:23

I think there was cultural misunderstandings,

32:25

religious misunderstandings,

32:28

but they did share a love of mate.

32:31

Uruguayans and Syrians drink mate.

32:34

(Polly laughs)

32:36

But I think that that shared experience

32:39

absolutely transformed the nature

32:47

of that resettlement.

32:49

Now, there been all kinds

32:50

of other difficulties with it,

32:53

but I think at a certain moment,

32:55

all of the men who were released there

32:59

at one point or another,

33:03

recognized that there was a solidarity

33:04

and there was an understanding

33:06

with what they'd been through.

33:07

However incredibly different those experiences were,

33:09

there was some kind of tie as well.

33:13

Interviewer

So, if you can advise the US government,

33:16

you would advise them to choose countries

33:18

that have the humanitarian (indistinct).

33:21

-

I don't know where to start with that question.

33:22

(both laughing)

33:25

The Life after Guantanamo project we...

33:29

I love spreadsheets.

33:32

(Polly laughs)

33:33

We had a spreadsheet about

33:35

where all the countries men had been released to

33:37

and all the country they'd been resettled to.

33:40

And using the measure of normally,

33:43

very conservative magazine, The Economist,

33:50

we worked out that 88% of men have been released

33:52

to either authoritarian regimes,

33:55

hybrid regimes or flawed democracies.

33:57

Interviewer

What's a hybrid regime to you?

34:02

(Polly laughs)

34:04

-

Now, that's the question for The Economist.

34:05

These are categories that The Economists came up with.

34:07

Interviewer

And did you go outside of Europe

34:12

'cause you mentioned your being...

34:14

Except for Europe-wide,

34:15

did you go to countries outside of Europe?

34:16

-

Yes.

34:18

Just off to the Arab Spring,

34:20

the start of the Arab Spring

34:22

we started a unique project,

34:23

a pilot project in Tunisia.

34:25

And we ran Life after Guantanamo in Tunisia,

34:28

which is a slightly different model

34:30

because it wasn't resettlement.

34:32

It was for Tunisian men and their families

34:34

and the families of men who were still detained.

34:37

And for the first time we actually aim

34:41

to provide direct services.

34:44

So, we recruited a small team of juniors,

34:46

young professionals, psychiatrists, doctors

34:49

social workers, psychologists,

34:52

to provide direct assistance to the men

34:55

and their families.

34:58

And at the same time,

34:59

we advocated to the new Tunisian government

35:00

to ask them to ask for the release

35:06

of the remaining Tunisian citizens.

35:08

Interviewer

What made you decide to go

35:11

to a country from where the men were

35:12

as opposed to the resettlement?

35:15

Since that was not originally your mission,

35:19

I understand.

35:21

-

No, that's right.

35:22

But I suppose there were a number of reasons.

35:24

First of all, Reprieve had had a number

35:30

of Tunisian clients over the years.

35:32

And we had worked there previously,

35:34

albeit in different circumstances

35:36

under the Ben Ali regime.

35:38

Very difficult to work there,

35:40

but we had contacts in the human rights community.

35:42

So, contacts who then actually,

35:44

some of them became members of government.

35:47

Secondly, it's clear that given the choice,

35:52

it would be much better for men

35:58

to be able to go home than to have to try

35:59

and recover from their appalling ordeal

36:02

in an entirely new country.

36:04

So, if it was at all possible

36:06

to help them do that in a country

36:10

which seemed to be opening,

36:13

as indeed I think is still the case

36:14

of the only one of the Arab Spring countries

36:17

where this is still just about the case,

36:19

that we should be able to facilitate that.

36:22

And we also had Tunisian clients

36:28

who'd been resettled in other European countries

36:30

who was struggling in those countries

36:33

and who wanted to go back once the regime fell.

36:34

Interviewer

And did you help them go back?

36:38

-

We always worked in partnership

36:40

either with ICRC or with IOM, but yes.

36:42

Interviewer

Did you find that more rewarding

36:46

working with the Tunisian?

36:48

-

Yeah, Tunisia is a fascinating country.

36:50

And there was a real spirit of openness

36:56

and dynamism and a real desire to help these men.

37:00

I think people understood that they had suffered

37:05

in ways that they identified with

37:08

because they had suffered much like Islamists

37:11

who had suffered under the Ben Ali regime.

37:15

And in fact, one of our clients

37:19

had been released from Guantanamo,

37:22

under Bush, I think in 2007 or 8

37:25

and then had been re-imprisoned

37:28

and tortured again by Ben Ali

37:31

before we were able to stop that transfer happening.

37:36

So, there was a very immediate understanding

37:41

of what had happened there

37:46

and what needed to change.

37:50

Interviewer

When you talked to families,

37:52

how did that differ from when you talk

37:54

to the men themselves?

37:56

-

It's immensely difficult working or trying

38:11

to support families whose brothers and sons

38:13

and fathers are still detained obviously.

38:17

And there've been so many false hopes

38:21

for them over the years.

38:25

It's very important to try and manage expectations,

38:27

but also offer support.

38:29

I think different families had different understandings

38:33

of what their loved ones had been through

38:36

and different ways of engaging

38:40

or not engaging with what that would mean

38:45

if and when they were released.

38:49

Interviewer

Well, when they were released,

38:52

I can tell you some stories but you know many more,

38:54

but the men would not always find themselves

38:57

in a comfortable situation coming home

39:03

for kinds of reasons that perhaps you can explain to us,

39:07

but were you there or was Chloe there,

39:10

was someone there to assist in those situations?

39:13

-

I think that family reunification

39:26

is one of the most difficult moments

39:28

as one as potentially the most joyful

39:30

because the expectations are so huge

39:34

and that's a moment that's been longed for for so long.

39:36

And yet I think there's a real fear on both sides

39:39

that this is someone who you've loved,

39:44

but who might have changed irreparably.

39:47

I think some of the men themselves

39:52

would say that about themselves

39:54

that they may not be able to find

39:56

who they were before to love again.

39:59

So, I think that moment is extremely difficult.

40:05

And to be reunited with someone

40:10

with whom you were so intimate before

40:12

and to have all the different feelings of shame

40:15

and mistrust and anger and paranoia

40:18

and deep sadness and depression and anxiety

40:23

and all of those things that you would have

40:26

and feel like maybe that you don't want

40:31

to show all of that,

40:32

there would be a sort of pressure

40:37

to show that now, now you're out.

40:38

Everything is okay, but that's just beginning.

40:40

Interviewer

And with children?

40:44

-

I think it's very difficult with children.

40:46

And of course, relationships

40:47

don't always survive Guantanamo.

40:49

Parental or sibling or marital.

40:52

Interviewer

And were counselors available for that?

40:57

And were you looking for counselors for that?

41:00

-

If the men wanted that,

41:03

that had to come from the men themselves

41:05

Interviewer

If the women wanted it?

41:09

-

Oh, sorry.

41:10

Interviewer

No, I think what you said

41:11

is really good, but if the women asked...

41:13

-

If anybody asked us for any kind of psychological

41:16

or medical or social assistance,

41:20

yes, that was our job.

41:21

And in Tunisia,

41:23

that's why we had this team ready for them.

41:24

And actually, I think it was really good

41:26

to have support for the wives and sisters and mothers.

41:29

It's the first time and only time I think

41:34

that's been offered,

41:36

And they did group work as well.

41:38

They ran a really small women's group.

41:42

And I think that was very important,

41:43

not only because of all of the challenges

41:46

of how best to support

41:48

and to welcome back their loved ones,

41:50

but also to deal with what they had gone through

41:52

under the Ben Ali regime as well

41:56

because they're extremely stigmatized

41:58

under the regime.

42:00

The regime would come knocking on their door

42:01

and harass them all the time.

42:04

It was known that their family member

42:08

was in Guantanamo.

42:10

And that was extremely, extremely distressing.

42:10

And they were effectively persecuted

42:16

for many years because of that.

42:18

So, to be able to talk openly

42:20

about that either to professional,

42:23

but also to other women who had experienced that,

42:26

who might only have been in the suburb next door,

42:30

but you could never have talked about it before.

42:32

Interviewer

So, when you said a women's group,

42:35

are you talking about wives or partners of the men?

42:36

-

Who were mothers or sisters actually

42:41

Interviewer

And you brought them together?

42:44

That was part of what you did?

42:45

-

Again, this was all generated between

42:46

the Tunisian team that we had and the families

42:50

and it was something that grew organically

42:53

out of something that the families talked

42:55

about with our team.

43:00

Interviewer

That was the first time you dealt

43:04

with families when you went to Tunisia?

43:06

-

I'd met family members before,

43:10

but we didn't incorporate them into our program.

43:12

We didn't really have the means to do that.

43:15

Interviewer

From then on, did you look at your job

43:18

or look at the Life after Guantanamo project

43:21

in a way that would embrace

43:23

or would assume that families were included

43:25

in these tragic events really?

43:29

-

Tunisian situation was rather unique because...

43:35

Actually, I think in the end,

43:40

we had something like 30 or so beneficiaries.

43:41

You wouldn't always have that kind of number

43:43

because you wouldn't necessarily

43:47

have a number of former detainees in one place

43:48

and extensive family networks around.

43:53

Of course, if and where it was relevant,

43:56

if a man would ask us to help get access

44:05

to particular kinds of support for his wife

44:08

or anyone else in the family,

44:10

we would try and do that.

44:11

But again, in other countries, it was different

44:12

because we were not providing direct assistance.

44:15

We were trying to identify

44:18

and develop service providers

44:19

who would be doing that themselves.

44:21

And it should be at their initiative really.

44:22

Interviewer

Did you go to Morocco?

44:28

Did you work in Morocco?

44:29

-

No, I haven't worked

in Morocco.

44:30

Interviewer

And Algeria?

44:32

-

No and we never managed to get access to Algeria.

44:33

I worked remotely with some of the men in Algeria.

44:36

Interviewer

What does that mean

44:40

to work remotely with them?

44:41

-

Which is to Skype and to email

44:42

and to liaise with lawyers.

44:45

Interviewer

Would they not allow you in the country?

44:46

-

I never got an answer to my multiple visa requests.

44:48

Interviewer

Really?

44:52

-

Yeah.

44:53

Interviewer

And you couldn't just get

44:54

on a plane and go there?

44:56

You need to have a...

44:57

-

We made the decision that to go on a tourist visa

44:58

and not to be a tourist would put the men at risk.

45:01

So, we didn't do that.

45:04

Interviewer

Were there other countries

45:06

that you went to that were outside Europe?

45:07

-

It depends how broadly you define Europe.

45:13

So, council of Europe, there's Georgia.

45:14

I was in Kazakhstan for my last visits in July, 2015.

45:17

Interviewer

Were those men returning home to families?

45:22

-

In Kazakhstan?

45:25

Interviewer

Yeah.

-

No.

45:27

The five men who were released

45:28

to Kazakhstan were resettled there.

45:29

They had absolutely no connection to the country.

45:31

They were Yemeni and Tunisian.

45:35

Interviewer

And how was that?

45:39

Was that comparable to what you said of Albania

45:42

or was it somewhat more unique?

45:45

I know each country is different,

45:47

but I think it's important for people

45:48

who are watching this to just get a sense

45:50

and the breadth of what you did.

45:53

-

In some ways I think it was comparable to Albania,

45:59

but the situation in Kazakhstan

46:01

was extremely challenging and not least

46:03

because the men who were released there

46:11

had been detained for almost 14 years

46:15

without charge or trial.

46:18

I want to sort of just put that in there now

46:20

because when I started that work,

46:22

Sabir had been detained without charge for seven years.

46:25

By the time I finished it, it was double.

46:29

So, psychologists talk about it

46:33

as a double dose of trauma

46:35

and that is effectively what it is.

46:37

It's a double dose.

46:38

So, the challenges in recovering from that

46:40

are exponentially greater.

46:44

And then of course, recovering from that in a country

46:46

which has no tradition of welcoming refugees,

46:51

a fairly patchy human rights record itself,

46:57

an extremely opaque.

47:02

Everything about what was going to be offered

47:06

to them was completely opaque

47:08

and getting meaningful answers from the government

47:11

was very difficult.

47:17

In addition to that,

47:20

so a number of the men suffered

47:21

from quite serious medical conditions as well.

47:22

And in fact, one of them passed before I got there.

47:25

Interviewer

Were you able to find medical assistance

47:32

for them when you got there?

47:34

-

They did receive some assistance

47:37

at a hospital, yes.

47:39

Interviewer

And did you find the same difficulty

47:44

in speaking to appropriate people

47:48

in the government as you did in Albania?

47:51

Or was it worse?

47:52

-

We eventually did manage to meet with the government.

47:57

We received a number of pledges from then.

48:00

I think none of which was subsequently honored.

48:03

Interviewer

And they let you in

48:07

'cause you asked for a visa obviously to go there.

48:08

So, they were willing to admit you into the country,

48:10

but then didn't really!

48:13

-

Yeah, so, the resettlement is managed

48:16

by the Red Crescent.

48:19

So, we had been liaising with them prior to visiting.

48:23

So, our visit was entirely coordinated by them.

48:27

Interviewer

And when you found out

48:30

that the government really wasn't committed

48:32

to its pledges to you, what could you do?

48:35

Or what did you do?

48:37

-

This is actually the time when I left Reprieve.

48:39

So, I didn't leave because of this,

48:42

(Polly laughs)

48:45

it had been planned.

48:46

But yeah, I went there in July,

48:49

at the end of July.

48:52

-

2015?

48:54

-

15!

2015 and I left in August

48:55

with this sort of handover note

48:59

that this is all of these government officials

49:01

in Kazakhstan needed to be contacted.

49:03

Well, you can go back to Katie and ask her,

49:07

but I don't think that that I was on it.

49:09

Interviewer

How did you keep your spirits up

49:14

with all this?

49:16

-

It's like any human rights work.

49:24

Humans are capable of the most terrible things

49:26

and the most wonderful things.

49:29

And I got to meet some very extraordinary men

49:31

who were really very resilient

49:36

despite the phenomenal abuse

49:38

that they'd been through.

49:41

And it's not just that,

49:45

it's that there are those small moments

49:46

when you get a call from someone you've worked with

49:49

to tell you that they've had a baby.

49:54

Actually, my favorite is someone who told me

49:57

that he'd managed to go fishing

49:59

for the first time again

50:01

and he'd caught an octopus.

50:02

Those small moments are pretty good.

50:05

And seeing people make meaningful lives again.

50:13

Yes, Guantanamo set out to destroy the person.

50:17

That really is what the Sierra regime,

50:21

the psychological regime was about.

50:24

It was about destroying the personality.

50:26

But actually some people managed to resist that

50:34

and it takes huge amount of time

50:37

to recover from that.

50:39

But there are moments of hope

50:41

and also working with a great team.

50:44

The Reprieve team is a good team to work with.

50:48

Interviewer

Could you tell us what a meaningful life

50:54

is to you what you saw?

50:56

-

I'm not sure that I could say that

51:02

because I'm sort of very conscious

51:04

that we were there to try and facilitate something.

51:06

I don't pretend that I really have any kind

51:11

of understanding of what the men went through.

51:14

And I think that's what also

51:16

one of my takeaways from this

51:18

that whilst I think we tried

51:19

to put in place structures

51:22

and systems and people who would help these men,

51:24

the struggle was still going to be theirs to recover.

51:30

And actually, some men would choose

51:36

to make that struggle alone.

51:38

Some men would want to do it with us by their sides.

51:42

There's a whole range of ways

51:47

in which you tried to make that journey.

51:48

And I think one of the really important ways,

51:54

which for many men was with the help of their brothers.

51:57

So, other men who had been inside.

52:03

They are the only other people

52:06

who could really understand what they'd been through.

52:07

I think for many, the sense of support,

52:11

even if they couldn't be in the same place

52:15

was enormously important.

52:19

Interviewer

One thing that I noticed

52:22

for what it's worth is personalities seem to matter

52:24

in terms of how people fell on the ground,

52:28

hit the ground.

52:31

Did you pick that up too?

52:32

-

Personality's definitely matter,

52:34

but I could never predict who's gonna be okay

52:35

and who's not going to be okay.

52:39

Katie and I used to try and do that.

52:41

You can more or less predict which country

52:50

is not going to be okay.

52:52

But some men do amazingly in terrible circumstances

52:56

and some men fall apart in situations

52:59

which are sort of relatively okay.

53:02

Interviewer

And once you left Reprieve,

53:09

you didn't stay in touch with the men, right?

53:11

Or would they?

53:13

-

No.

53:15

Interviewer

Did you see Boumediene

53:21

when he was in Nice?

53:23

-

No, I've just spoken to him.

53:25

Interviewer

And before I go onto some other questions,

53:29

are there other people who just

53:32

are memorable to you that for some reason

53:35

would be interesting for history

53:36

just to know about?

53:38

You don't have to give names,

53:40

but just some experience there.

53:41

-

Well, there are several whose experiences working

53:45

with them has really touched me.

53:49

But Mohammed Al Gorani is one of them.

53:50

Interviewer

Can you tell us who he is?

53:55

-

Mohammed is one of the youngest,

53:55

if not the youngest now men then a boy

53:58

to have been detained at Guantanamo.

54:02

He was taken when he was 14 years old.

54:04

He was born in Saudi Arabia and he grew up there,

54:09

but his family are originally from Chad

54:15

and because the Saudis have a policy

54:22

of not granting citizenship

54:25

to people of migrant origin or Africans,

54:28

they wouldn't take him back.

54:33

So, he was released to Chad,

54:35

a country where he'd never been.

54:37

The poorest country in the world.

54:39

Well, he didn't speak the language either.

54:43

He didn't speak French.

54:46

And the dialect of Arabic is different.

54:47

He's also the only one of our clients

54:52

who was ever released as a result of a court order.

54:54

I'm not a lawyer, but of course,

55:01

Reprieve is a legal charity.

55:02

We would always enjoy telling young interns

55:06

and newbies that no matter which pedestal

55:10

that might've placed the law,

55:17

that actually law without politics

55:18

and advocacy and activism

55:21

can be a pretty blunt instrument or ineffective.

55:24

So, Mohammed was released in June, 2009 to Chad,

55:30

which was just before I arrived at Reprieve.

55:39

And he had been detained without charge or trial

55:41

for seven years at that point.

55:46

So, between 14 and 21, his formative years.

55:49

No education, he'd undergone unbelievable abuse,

55:53

terrible beatings and all the rest in Guantanamo.

55:57

But I knew even before I met him

56:05

that he was gonna be a character

56:08

because all the lawyers...

56:09

Everybody was incredibly fond of Mohammed.

56:11

And I'd spoken to him on the phone

56:13

and he was a joker

56:18

and just a really big personality,

56:20

a very social, a great guy, a really great guy.

56:22

And indeed that's who he turned out to be

56:26

when I met him too.

56:28

Interviewer

What did he need from you?

56:33

Did he have any support system at all

56:34

when you met him?

56:36

-

No, he had nothing.

He had a number of medical problems

56:41

that needed attention.

56:44

His legal status was unclear.

56:46

He needed a whole lot of support.

56:51

He needed to kind help make a plan really

56:53

for how he was gonna get back on his feet

56:57

to do some training, to get work.

57:00

Interviewer

Were you able to find something in Chad?

57:04

-

No, I didn't meet him in Chad.

57:07

My colleagues met him in Chad.

57:10

There was nothing available in Chad.

57:12

We spent months speaking

57:13

to different organizations in Chad

57:15

and there was really nothing.

57:18

When I say this is the poorest country on earth,

57:19

it's the poorest country on earth.

57:21

There is nothing there

57:22

for many victims of torture in Chad, in fact,

57:26

but certainly nothing for the kind

57:29

of specific problems that Mohammed had as well.

57:30

He was also a sort of celebrity,

57:33

but not of the right kind.

57:35

The president of Chad

57:37

had made derogatory comments about him.

57:38

He'd experienced really severe harassment

57:42

and discrimination as well since he was released.

57:45

He was detained for a while,

57:48

but when he got back...

57:51

Well, not when he got back,

57:52

when he got there.

57:53

So, no, we managed to get him some

57:55

of the medical attention that he needed

57:59

and some other support in another West African country.

58:01

Interviewer

He was able to go

58:05

to another West African country?

58:06

And was he able to stay there

58:09

or just for the short...

58:11

-

Yeah, he's in West Africa now.

58:13

Interviewer

And is there someone looking out for him Now

58:16

or is he taking care of (indistinct).

58:18

-

He's doing pretty well.

58:19

He's got married.

58:20

He has two kids.

58:22

Interviewer

Wow!

58:23

Is he working?

58:24

-

Yeah.

He's always had lots of ideas

58:27

for businesses he could start.

58:29

And he's a creative guy.

58:31

Interviewer

Did someone deliberately

58:34

look out for him and get him a job

58:36

or did he get a job on his own?

58:38

I'll tell you why I asked that question,

58:40

but that's (indistinct).

58:41

-

Yeah, he managed by himself.

58:43

Interviewer

There was a detainee we met in Albania

58:46

before you came a week ago,

58:49

who was partially assisted to go

58:51

to school by American money.

58:53

Did you come upon that otherwise

58:56

where there was some outside source

58:59

that might help his name?

59:02

-

Yeah.

59:04

Do you mean, was I aware of other sources

59:07

who would donate funds

59:09

to individuals?

59:11

-

Yeah!

-

Yeah, that was always quite a difficult issue.

59:13

We didn't have funds to donate,

59:15

but we would always try

59:17

and identify funds if possible.

59:18

The World Organisation of Torture gave small grants

59:22

to a number of clients of ours

59:25

for language learning, for vocational training,

59:28

for medical needs.

59:32

Interviewer

So, Mohammed might've gotten

59:33

some funding like that too.

59:36

And I assume when you took people out shopping,

59:40

that funding came from that too, right?

59:43

-

Yeah!

59:44

Interviewer

I assume you couldn't use

59:46

your funding for that.

59:47

-

No!

59:48

Interviewer

Do you have one other story

59:52

before I go on?

59:53

Is there another person who was inspiring?

59:54

-

Really, they're several guys who I can think of

59:58

who are pretty inspiring.

1:00:03

Nabil Hadjarab in Algeria.

1:00:06

Again, someone else who was returned to a country

1:00:10

with which he really wasn't familiar.

1:00:15

He grew up in France.

1:00:16

And if there's any justice in this world,

1:00:18

he would have been released to France

1:00:20

where all his surviving family are,

1:00:22

but the French refused and he was sent to Algeria.

1:00:26

But he's made a go of things

1:00:31

and he's got a job and he's doing really well.

1:00:32

Interviewer

Can he go to France

1:00:35

to visit us his family?

1:00:37

-

I think there are travel restrictions

1:00:38

for almost all of this men.

1:00:39

Interviewer

Do you know why France

1:00:41

wouldn't take him if he actually lived in France?

1:00:42

-

No, I don't know.

1:00:45

Interviewer

(indistinct) if you don't know.

1:00:47

And do some of these men...

1:00:51

You kind of said,

1:00:58

but I just want to put in other terms,

1:00:59

some of these men felt they could move on

1:01:00

and they didn't have to live in their head

1:01:03

with Guantanamo they could move on.

1:01:08

Do you think that then none of them could?

1:01:09

Just from your own observation.

1:01:12

-

Sorry, you said someone...

1:01:15

-

If could move on

in their head from Guantanamo,

1:01:16

they could say, "Okay, that happened to me,

1:01:18

but now I can move on now,

1:01:20

have a new life" and somehow leave that behind.

1:01:21

Did you see that?

1:01:25

Is that possible?

1:01:26

-

Certainly, that's what people were trying to do.

1:01:28

I think it just takes a lot of time,

1:01:34

a really long time, yes.

1:01:36

And I think one of the things we saw again and again

1:01:40

is how much the regime had been internalized.

1:01:43

So, sometimes people would see no difference

1:01:48

between the country,

1:01:54

the new country they were in and Guantanamo.

1:01:55

It would feel not just metaphorically,

1:01:59

but really like they were still there.

1:02:02

That takes a long time to recover from.

1:02:05

Interviewer

Actually, we heard that too,

1:02:08

some still live in Guantanamo.

1:02:09

-

Yeah, I heard that again and again and again.

1:02:11

Interviewer

So, when you started,

1:02:19

did you understand the enormity of Guantanamo

1:02:23

or did it become more and more present to you

1:02:28

as you continue to do your work?

1:02:31

What did you learn from these eight years?

1:02:35

And what the US had done in Guantanamo

1:02:37

is and what it represents?

1:02:43

-

I think like most people,

1:02:48

I knew the kind of broad brush strokes.

1:02:53

I knew the horror of a place

1:02:55

which was illegal black hole,

1:02:59

but I think it became much more granular, of course,

1:03:03

by working with these men.

1:03:07

And of course, you asked me earlier

1:03:08

what they were likable

1:03:11

and I said something, fairly cliched about

1:03:12

that they're as varied as all of us,

1:03:16

that's exactly right.

1:03:21

You don't take almost 800 men randomly from,

1:03:22

I don't know, dozens of different countries

1:03:30

and expect them all to be the same.

1:03:32

And they're not!

1:03:36

What did I learn?

1:03:38

I learned about the things we talked about.

1:03:40

I learned about the power of survival

1:03:41

and the power of brotherhood.

1:03:45

But I also learned that

1:03:47

once you throw out the rule book,

1:03:49

once you throw out the rule of law,

1:03:51

it's very hard to recover that.

1:03:53

And that's what we saw!

1:03:57

The stigma and the illegality

1:04:00

and the lack of transparency,

1:04:03

would follow these men for many years afterwards.

1:04:06

Interviewer

So, you said it earlier,

1:04:11

but you were disappointed in Obama.

1:04:13

You'd thought like many of us

1:04:15

that he was gonna close it.

1:04:17

And then when he just wouldn't look back

1:04:19

and just look forward disappointed

1:04:21

and that added to your sense of...

1:04:22

-

Yes, yeah!

1:04:27

I was certainly disappointed in Obama.

1:04:28

I'm not an American citizen,

1:04:30

but I think there was a real sense certainly,

1:04:32

when he won the Nobel Peace Prize

1:04:37

that he was going to do good things for the world.

1:04:40

And Guantanamo had symbolized parallax laws,

1:04:43

how America had deviated from its own constitution.

1:04:49

And I think there was obviously a real hope

1:05:02

that Obama would put it back on track.

1:05:04

And I think that he had multiple opportunities

1:05:06

that he missed.

1:05:11

And I feel that all the more sorely now

1:05:13

when they have until the 20th of January, 2017

1:05:16

to try and release several dozen more men.

1:05:22

Interviewer

How likely is it

1:05:29

that Obama can re...

1:05:31

Why would countries take men now?

1:05:33

-

I don't know what deals have been

1:05:43

in the pipeline for the last couple of years.

1:05:44

We have certainly seen this year

1:05:48

speeding up in the releases,

1:05:52

but to new countries,

1:05:54

a lot more men who've gone to Gulf states

1:05:57

and we had the first releases to Senegal.

1:06:01

We had releases to Ghana,

1:06:05

the second man who was sent to Cape Verde.

1:06:07

We're seeing some interesting new countries

1:06:09

or returned to countries stepping forward.

1:06:12

And I can only speculate about

1:06:15

what kinds of reasons those countries might have.

1:06:18

Interviewer

Do you wanna speculate?

1:06:21

-

Well, as I said, I don't know the secrets.

1:06:23

All I can say is that there are clearly diplomatic

1:06:30

if not financial incentives for countries to do this.

1:06:36

And that often, I think if you look closely

1:06:41

at the timing of when these releases have happened,

1:06:43

it's when a country has been

1:06:47

in particular need of American favor

1:06:49

or ballast against

1:06:53

another global power, for example.

1:06:55

Interviewer

Did you ever go

1:06:59

to any of the Arab countries?

1:06:59

-

No.

1:07:02

Interviewer

Do you think...

1:07:06

You don't know,

1:07:07

but would you think the men might be better off

1:07:08

in one of these Arab countries

1:07:10

than in say Slovakia

1:07:13

and one of these poor European countries,

1:07:14

do you think?

1:07:16

-

Yeah, it could be.

1:07:18

The situation in the Arab countries

1:07:20

is different as well.

1:07:22

Yes, of course, for several reasons,

1:07:24

it's gonna be easier to recover

1:07:28

if you're in a Muslim country

1:07:29

where you speak the language,

1:07:32

where the customs are familiar to you.

1:07:33

Yes, certainly, but it depends on

1:07:36

whether you're going to be detained there

1:07:39

or what the stipulations

1:07:42

of that regime are as well.

1:07:44

Interviewer

So, you said something that

1:07:46

might be obvious to you and to many people,

1:07:47

but not to everyone.

1:07:51

What are the problems for someone...

1:07:55

And you said it,

1:07:57

but I just would like to review it for history.

1:07:58

What are the problems with someone to be sent

1:08:01

to a country where there's no mosque

1:08:03

and or where the culture is different,

1:08:05

the language.

1:08:06

Can you just generally just talk about that

1:08:07

for just someone who is totally unfamiliar

1:08:09

with (indistinct)?

1:08:12

-

So, men released from Guantanamo face

1:08:14

all the challenges

1:08:16

that any refugee would face, of course

1:08:17

and in trying to integrate to a new society

1:08:19

and those issues of adaptation to a new culture,

1:08:23

trying to learn a language,

1:08:28

trying to understand the nature of the state

1:08:32

and how you...

1:08:36

Just day-to-day things,

1:08:37

how you get things done.

1:08:38

Of course, on top of that,

1:08:39

you add the particular challenges

1:08:40

of having survived gross abuses and torture.

1:08:42

That makes it even more challenging.

1:08:47

On top of that,

1:08:50

you add the stigma of having been in Guantanamo

1:08:50

and the particular specificities

1:08:53

of that psychological regime.

1:08:54

So, it's a huge hurdle.

1:08:57

And you can't also assume that even

1:09:02

if you're released to a country

1:09:03

where there is a Muslim population

1:09:05

that they would necessarily be welcoming either

1:09:08

because the stigma is such that people still think...

1:09:11

There's no smoke without fire.

1:09:16

Anyone who ended up there must have been a terrorist.

1:09:18

And in some of those countries,

1:09:22

particularly Eastern Europe,

1:09:25

if they had a Muslim population,

1:09:26

they would be quite small

1:09:27

and they wouldn't want to stick their head

1:09:29

understandably above the parapet and say,

1:09:30

"Okay, we'll help this guy"

1:09:32

for fear of what reprisals that might bring

1:09:35

from their own government.

1:09:37

Interviewer

We interviewed some person who told us

1:09:39

that he didn't tell anybody who was in Guantanamo.

1:09:41

Did you find that common?

1:09:45

-

Yeah, certainly, very common.

1:09:47

And it's of course up to the individual

1:09:49

how he wants to deal with that.

1:09:51

But I think it's very understandable,

1:09:52

particularly in certain countries

1:09:56

where I don't think there's much

1:09:57

of a kind of public discourse

1:09:59

about what Guantanamo really was

1:10:01

and why people ended up there.

1:10:06

I think there's huge ignorance about

1:10:08

that generally still.

1:10:10

Interviewer

And what kind of status

1:10:12

did these men have when they were brought

1:10:14

to these countries?

1:10:17

Did the status vary from country to country?

1:10:19

-

The legal status did vary from country to country.

1:10:23

I think at the beginning,

1:10:27

we and other human rights organizations had hoped

1:10:28

that they would be at least granted refugee status.

1:10:31

That happened in only a very select few countries.

1:10:36

And other than that, it really varied.

1:10:41

They were usually given some

1:10:44

kind of temporary permission, residents' permission.

1:10:46

Often, annually renewable

1:10:50

or even six monthly renewable.

1:10:52

And it was very unclear what rights accrued

1:10:55

to that status.

1:10:57

And that was one of the big hurdles

1:10:59

and something we tried to assist with

1:11:00

by working with local lawyers

1:11:02

and advocating to that government

1:11:04

to clarify the nature of the status,

1:11:06

the duration of the status

1:11:10

and what rights would accrue to that,

1:11:11

whether they would have freedom of movement rights

1:11:12

or whether they would have family reunification rights,

1:11:14

rights to work, all of that kind of thing.

1:11:17

Interviewer

Well, did you ever see a situation

1:11:21

where someone lost their status when they came

1:11:23

and now they very precarious situation for them?

1:11:26

-

I don't think so, no!

1:11:33

Interviewer

- Even though the men

1:11:37

were nervous about their status,

1:11:39

they usually didn't lose it.

1:11:41

At least, not from what you know.

1:11:43

-

Yes, but it was about the impermanence of it

1:11:44

and the lack of clarity about

1:11:48

what was going to be granted around it.

1:11:50

So, if you were constantly

1:11:52

on a renewable permit then.

1:11:53

How do you eat?

1:11:58

How do you plan for anything?

1:11:58

It doesn't contribute to it,

1:12:00

it doesn't help integration.

1:12:01

Interviewer

Would you help them find...

1:12:05

I know this might sound odd,

1:12:07

but I was told by some people

1:12:08

that they would be looking for wives

1:12:10

and people would help them.

1:12:12

Would that be part of what you did?

1:12:13

-

You say it thought it sounds odd,

1:12:15

but I would get asked that question a lot.

1:12:16

Interviewer

Really!

1:12:18

(both laughing)

1:12:19

-

No, it's not.

1:12:20

It wasn't ever part

1:12:21

of Life after Guantanamo agreement

1:12:22

to act as match maker,

1:12:25

although it was requested of us.

1:12:27

Interviewer

Really?

1:12:29

-

Yes!

Interviewer

Is Obama gonna close Guantanamo

1:12:33

in the next 30 days?

1:12:34

-

I don't think so!

1:12:38

Interviewer

He waited too long?

1:12:40

-

I think Obama waited too long to close it

1:12:43

and he missed too many opportunities.

1:12:45

And I think he made a calculated decision

1:12:48

at several points that he wasn't going

1:12:51

to expand the political capital that was required.

1:12:53

Now, I'm sure much more why is observers,

1:12:57

the me of American politics would say,

1:13:03

"Well, that was the right decision

1:13:05

because it was more important

1:13:06

to get Obamacare through or whatever."

1:13:08

But he could have used his executive privilege

1:13:10

at a number of points,

1:13:15

signed a waiver on the NDAA restrictions

1:13:18

and authorize more releases,

1:13:23

but he didn't.

1:13:26

Interviewer

And why should he have?

1:13:28

Why is it important for the world

1:13:31

that he should have shut down Guantanamo?

1:13:32

-

Well, I think that...

1:13:41

We're still living in the war on terror.

1:13:50

(both laughing)

1:13:53

No one's declared any end

1:13:57

to the war on terror to my knowledge.

1:13:58

Closing Guantanamo would have been a good way

1:14:02

to signal the end of that war,

1:14:04

that never ending war.

1:14:05

And I think because of what I said earlier,

1:14:07

that once you throw the rule book,

1:14:10

it's very hard to get it back again.

1:14:12

And thirdly, because if you want

1:14:16

to really stop terrorism,

1:14:21

then you need to stop committing human rights abuses

1:14:27

on the scale that Guantanamo was and is

1:14:30

because I think it's absolutely true what they say

1:14:34

that Guantanamo was the best

1:14:36

recruiting sergeant possible.

1:14:38

We've seen the videos of ISIS in the orange suits.

1:14:42

Interviewer

So, one thing that I observed

1:14:49

was that people outside of US

1:14:51

are much more conscious of Guantanamo

1:14:54

than people inside the US.

1:14:56

-

It's interesting!

1:14:59

Interviewer

You would agree with that?

1:15:00

-

Yeah, certainly it has global recognition.

1:15:03

No doubt about that!

1:15:07

One of the things that was interesting to me

1:15:10

when I went to work in Latin America

1:15:15

for the first time

1:15:17

was that Guantanamo meant something different there

1:15:18

than it does in Europe.

1:15:22

In Europe, Guantanamo and European more broadly,

1:15:26

I think in the Arab world, obviously,

1:15:30

Guantanamo's signifies America's deviants

1:15:32

from human rights

1:15:36

and from being the kind of moral arbiter

1:15:37

on anything really.

1:15:41

But in Latin America,

1:15:44

it's a very important symbol of America

1:15:46

as a piece of Cuban sovereignty, of course.

1:15:49

Interviewer

Really?

1:15:52

-

Yeah!

(indistinct)

1:15:54

Well, certainly, in the countries where I visited.

1:15:56

So, the sort of Southern cone.

1:15:58

And one of the arguments for them

1:16:02

for closing Guantanamo was that it closed

1:16:05

the military base there.

1:16:07

So, I thought it was interesting too.

1:16:11

Interviewer

Very interesting.

1:16:12

So, the prison was secondary to be (indistinct).

1:16:14

-

I think there was an almost...

1:16:18

Well, it depends on the the politics, obviously

1:16:20

of the particular government

1:16:23

or people that you're talking to, of course.

1:16:25

For many, there was an obvious solidarity

1:16:29

with people who are perceived

1:16:31

as political prisoners of the American regime,

1:16:34

because across many countries in South America,

1:16:37

they have an understanding and a history

1:16:41

of having been political prisoners of regimes

1:16:44

who were backed by the US.

1:16:47

So, that's one thing.

1:16:49

-

That's very interesting!

1:16:51

-

Yeah!

And then there's the issue of Cuban sovereignty

1:16:53

on top of that as well.

1:16:56

Interviewer

Could you tell us the kind

1:16:58

of work you did after you left Reprieve

1:17:01

so we can put this in perspective?

1:17:03

-

So, I've actually returned to a subject

1:17:08

which I was working more on

1:17:12

before I started the work on Guantanamo,

1:17:14

which is work with refugees.

1:17:15

So, it's not really a million miles away,

1:17:17

but I currently work

1:17:20

for a legal assistance program working

1:17:24

with survivors of torture in Greece,

1:17:28

people who fled mostly from the Syrian war.

1:17:31

Interviewer

Do you find that...

1:17:36

In some ways, of course, they overlap,

1:17:39

but are there some distinctions

1:17:41

that become very apparent

1:17:42

by the work you're doing now?

1:17:46

-

Yes.

1:17:49

Sorry, are there some distinctions?

1:17:50

Yeah, as you say, in some ways they overlap

1:17:55

because we're talking about torture.

1:17:58

And torture damages in certain,

1:18:01

very recognizable ways.

1:18:05

But I do think that the, as I've said before,

1:18:10

the very specific nature

1:18:14

of the psychological control in Guantanamo

1:18:16

is quite different from torture metered out

1:18:19

under other regimes or other circumstances.

1:18:23

And it generates just levels of mistrust and paranoia

1:18:27

that is sort of off the scale,

1:18:35

understandably of the scale.

1:18:37

Of course, I always say that old adage

1:18:42

that just because you're paranoid

1:18:47

doesn't mean they're not after you.

1:18:49

Actually, happens to be often the case

1:18:51

for these men too,

1:18:53

because sometimes they're right to be paranoid

1:18:54

because they continue to be monitored and surveilled

1:18:57

and that is not something necessarily

1:19:01

that you would see in a normal refugee population.

1:19:03

Certainly, in one outside their country of origin.

1:19:05

Interviewer

I just want to emphasize

1:19:10

that for people who are viewing this.

1:19:11

What you just said,

1:19:14

can we say that when the...

1:19:16

And then we kind of said it before,

1:19:19

but just to make the point for the audience

1:19:20

that when the men are sent to these countries,

1:19:22

they are continued to be surveilled

1:19:25

by the local government

1:19:27

and that America is participating in that

1:19:30

or at least asking them to do that.

1:19:33

-

I have no evidence of what the US authorities

1:19:35

have asked the host governments to do.

1:19:38

I certainly can tell you that they continue

1:19:40

to be surveilled and monitored.

1:19:43

In fact, I've met with the very people

1:19:44

who are tasked with surveilling and monitoring them.

1:19:46

And that surveillance can be very crude.

1:19:50

For example, I've been told by...

1:19:55

What else can we say?

1:19:59

But a spook that they know that someone

1:20:00

is not on hunger strike because they know

1:20:03

the contents of his fridge

1:20:05

and they would then describe

1:20:06

what's in his fridge to me.

1:20:07

So, it can be pretty crude

1:20:08

or it can be more subtle,

1:20:10

just the usual pips on the phone

1:20:12

or this kind of thing.

1:20:13

But they also actively intervene

1:20:17

in the men's lives.

1:20:19

They will have experiences

1:20:22

of being told by their landlord

1:20:23

that they have to move out

1:20:26

because the security services told them

1:20:27

they have to move out or-

1:20:30

-

They'll interfere.

1:20:35

-

they'll interfere.

1:20:36

Actively interfere sometimes.

1:20:37

Interviewer

And so, when you said also, Polly

1:20:39

and again, what you hear from a lot of detainees

1:20:41

that Guantanamo is a psychological prison.

1:20:43

That's kind of what you're saying.

1:20:46

That's perhaps is different kind of torture.

1:20:47

The person that comes out of that,

1:20:51

experience some different from the refugees

1:20:53

you see in Greece.

1:20:55

-

I think so.

1:20:56

You certainly see common themes,

1:20:58

the anxiety, the depression,

1:21:04

the anger, the PTSD-like symptoms.

1:21:06

Absolutely, sharing common,

1:21:09

but as you say, it was a psychological prison

1:21:11

and that's why you hear men say again and again,

1:21:13

"I'm still in Guantanamo"

1:21:16

because if it's a psychological prison there,

1:21:17

it's a psychological prison outside too.

1:21:19

Interviewer

I want to say one more thing,

1:21:25

but when the men come to these countries

1:21:26

where they can't speak the language

1:21:28

and if they're not very good

1:21:30

at learning languages,

1:21:31

did you see that?

1:21:32

And is that continually keeping them isolated,

1:21:34

if you will?

1:21:36

-

Well, it's not just a question

1:21:38

of whether they might be good

1:21:38

or might have an aptitude at languages or not,

1:21:40

but of course, trauma impacts one's ability

1:21:42

to concentrate as well.

1:21:45

So, you're asking men to do something often

1:21:46

in a very short amount of time.

1:21:49

Maybe they've given, I don't know,

1:21:52

20 weeks worth of language lessons or something

1:21:54

and then they're supposed to be out there

1:21:56

on their own managing.

1:21:57

You've been in prison for 7, 10, 12 years.

1:22:00

It's well known amongst

1:22:06

torture rehabilitation specialists

1:22:07

that an ability to concentrate and focus

1:22:09

is absolutely one of the things

1:22:13

that is damaged by torture.

1:22:14

So, asking somebody to learn a language

1:22:16

and do all kinds of other practical things,

1:22:19

it's actually, quite a big ask, certainly,

1:22:21

in the sort of near future after release.

1:22:24

So, I think that can really affect someone's ability

1:22:29

to integrate and then get a job,

1:22:33

do a training, all the other things

1:22:36

that men absolutely want to do.

1:22:37

So often we hear, "I really want to work."

1:22:41

It's not that it's men who don't want to work.

1:22:43

They absolutely do.

1:22:45

They want to be independent again,

1:22:47

they want to stand on their own two feet.

1:22:49

Interviewer

And they wanna work and...

1:22:52

-

And get married and have children.

1:22:55

(Polly laughs)

1:22:57

Absolutely!

1:22:58

In fact, you're right, that's number one.

1:22:59

Interviewer

Is there something I didn't ask you

1:23:05

that on your way here or while you were on the plane

1:23:07

that you thought you'd like to share?

1:23:11

'Cause I think you probably can tell us more

1:23:13

about Life after Guantanamo.

1:23:17

Anybody else who we've interviewed

1:23:18

and probably will ever interview.

1:23:19

And so, I think, the experience you've had is amazing

1:23:21

and incredibly important for this project

1:23:25

because we don't have much about life after.

1:23:29

And you really...

1:23:32

-

Well, the people obviously

1:23:34

who can tell you much more than me

1:23:36

are the other people themselves who live it.

1:23:38

I think back to a conversation that I had very early on

1:23:45

when we started the project with a former detainee

1:23:50

who had not long been released.

1:23:53

And we were explaining what the nature

1:23:55

of the project was and what it was called.

1:23:58

And he said, "Well, if you call it that,

1:23:59

if you call it Life after Guantanamo,

1:24:01

you have to give life."

1:24:03

And I sort of sat back and went,

1:24:07

"Right, what does that mean?"

1:24:11

But I think it absolutely describes

1:24:13

what it feels like

1:24:14

which is that life has been destroyed

1:24:16

and that's what torture does.

1:24:21

Torture destroys that sense of being alive.

1:24:24

Interviewer

I hate to (indistinct) those words.

1:24:31

-

Sorry!

1:24:33

(both laughing)

1:24:34

We can go back to talking about husbands

1:24:35

and wives and babies.

1:24:37

Interviewer

But I think that's a very powerful

1:24:42

and actually important words to end with.

1:24:45

You're gonna continue in the work you're doing now.

1:24:51

Is that how you see yourself going forward?

1:24:53

-

Yeah.

1:24:58

I actually think in Europe anyway.

1:24:59

I think the war on terror has almost morphed

1:25:05

into a war in immigration.

1:25:08

And I think that sums up some parallels.

1:25:11

I don't think it's a coincidence

1:25:16

that we're turning our backs on

1:25:18

the many millions of Syrian refugees

1:25:22

many of whom happen to be Muslim

1:25:25

in the same ways that we declared war

1:25:27

on many Muslims and the war on terror.

1:25:30

Interviewer

And you see the American government

1:25:35

going further in that direction?

1:25:38

-

No, I don't follow American immigration policies.

1:25:39

No, actually, I feel this as a European

1:25:44

and particularly as a Brit who's just endured Brexit.

1:25:48

(Polly laughs)

1:25:52

Interviewer

Just so people understand,

1:25:55

you're going back to Greece to keep working

1:25:56

with the refugees there?

1:25:58

And do you see that as an ongoing work

1:25:59

or do you see yourself going to other countries?

1:26:04

Is the need there to stay in Greece

1:26:07

for something like the time?

1:26:09

-

I think the need to stay in Greece

1:26:11

will be there for some time.

1:26:13

And actually, I feel a sense of responsibility.

1:26:15

As I say, as a European,

1:26:19

I feel that Europe has failed on this.

1:26:20

I don't anticipate going outside Europe.

1:26:24

Interviewer

What about Turkey?

1:26:28

'Cause Turkey have similar situation like Greece

1:26:33

'cause of many of them...

1:26:35

-

Yeah, Turkey has taken millions of refugees

1:26:36

from the war,

1:26:39

but it also, I think commits

1:26:42

serious human rights violations

1:26:44

and there's evidence of push backs of refugees

1:26:47

and killings on the border.

1:26:50

And I think the EU deal with Turkey

1:26:54

to stop Syrians getting through

1:26:58

is disgusting quite frankly.

1:27:05

And I think we're just trying

1:27:09

to kind of create a sort of off shore...

1:27:10

Basically, I see the Greek island refugee camps

1:27:13

as kind of off shore detention.

1:27:15

That's what we're trying to do that.

1:27:19

(both laughing)

1:27:21

It's not Guantanamo, it's not Guantanamo,

1:27:24

but they are prisons.

1:27:26

Interviewer

Guantanamo and I think we're done,

1:27:31

but Guantanamo is the way you keep saying it is unique

1:27:33

with being a psychological prison,

1:27:37

has a uniqueness that you don't see if at all.

1:27:39

-

That's my impression.

1:27:45

I've not been there,

1:27:47

but I've not encountered anything working

1:27:48

with other survivors of torture

1:27:51

with such a sophisticated regime

1:27:54

of psychological control.

1:27:57

And it's in the minutia of daily life there, I think.

1:27:59

Administrative measures, the punishments

1:28:07

and incentives that it was a regime very much

1:28:09

based around punishments and incentives.

1:28:14

And that of course has consequences as well.

1:28:16

And it might be that the incentive

1:28:20

is that you get an extra two sheets of toilet paper

1:28:24

and the punishment is that you're subjected

1:28:29

to what was known as frequent flying.

1:28:33

That's sleep deprivation when you're move

1:28:34

from cell to cell, to cell, to cell.

1:28:36

Now someone might say,

1:28:38

"Well, that's not (indistinct).

1:28:40

That's not some of the more classic

1:28:43

brutal physical torture,"

1:28:46

but it absolutely kind of degrades

1:28:49

and humiliates and destroys,

1:28:52

I think in very fundamental ways.

1:28:54

Interviewer

I'm gonna end there

1:29:00

because I totally agree with the fact

1:29:01

that when people talk about waterboarding,

1:29:05

I always say that, "I think

1:29:07

what you just described is horrible."

1:29:10

-

Getting your sense of control back after that

1:29:13

is very difficult.

1:29:16

And what we tried to do

1:29:18

with the Life after Guantanamo project

1:29:20

is with any one who was either nominated

1:29:22

or trying to support these men would say,

1:29:28

"Look, everything has to be led by them.

1:29:31

It has to be needs driven by them

1:29:35

as articulated by them.

1:29:36

Because if you try and impose some regime on them,

1:29:38

it won't work.

1:29:42

It will be very damaging, potentially retraumatizing.

1:29:44

And it won't be constructive

1:29:48

in terms of helping recovery

1:29:49

or helping reintegration."

1:29:51

Interviewer

Was that...

1:29:55

Were you counseled on that?

1:29:57

What you just told us when you started

1:29:58

with someone had said that to you

1:30:00

or did you come to that?

1:30:02

-

We came to it as I say working

1:30:06

with former detainees themselves in London,

1:30:08

but also psychologists whom we work closely with.

1:30:10

Interviewer

That's so true.

1:30:15

Well, I'll ask you one more time, Polly,

1:30:18

if there's anything still.

1:30:19

No.

1:30:21

Okay, well, we need to take 20 seconds of room tone

1:30:21

and then we can close.

1:30:25

So, thank you.

1:30:27

-

Pleasure!

1:30:29

Thank you for talking to me.

1:30:30

Producer

Getting room tone.

1:30:32

Rossdale, Polly - Interview master file

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