Walls, Glendale - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Man

Rolling.

0:05

Interviewer

Okay, good afternoon.

0:06

We are very grateful to you for participating

0:08

in the Witness to Guantanmo Project.

0:10

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:13

and your involvement with detainees in Bagram

0:16

and then about your life subsequent to

0:19

your experiences in Bagram.

0:22

We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity

0:25

to tell your story in your own words.

0:26

We're creating an archive of stories

0:29

so that people in America and around the world

0:31

will have a better opportunity to understand what you

0:34

and others have experienced and observed.

0:36

Future generations must know what happened,

0:41

and by telling your story you're contributing to history.

0:43

And we're very grateful for you to speak with us today.

0:47

And if there's any time you'd like to take a break,

0:51

please let us know.

0:54

And if there's something you said

0:55

you wish you hadn't, you can let us know

0:56

and we can remove it before we print it out.

0:59

So I'd like to begin by asking you your name,

1:02

and your birth date, and age,

1:05

and a little bit about your background

1:08

before you joined the military.

1:09

So you could tell us.

1:13

-

My name is Glendale Walls II.

1:14

I was born November 24th, 1981.

1:17

I'm currently 33 years old.

1:20

Before joining the military,

1:23

I joined the military straight out of high school.

1:26

So all I had were odd jobs here and there before-

1:31

Interviewer

Where was high school,

1:33

where were you living then?

1:34

-

I was living in San Antonio, Texas.

1:35

-

And is that where you grew up, San Antonio?

1:38

-

I kind of grew up everywhere.

1:41

That's where I lived before I joined the military.

1:43

Interviewer

And why did you join the military

1:47

straight out of high school?

1:49

-

Main reason why I joined the military was honestly,

1:51

looking for college money.

1:54

That and a chance to get out on my own.

1:56

Interviewer

And what kind of work did you do

1:59

when you first joined the military?

2:01

Where'd they assign you?

2:02

And which part of the military did you join?

2:04

-

I joined the United States Army.

2:08

Attended basic training at Fort Knox, Kentucky.

2:11

Then went on to the advanced school, the AIT.

2:15

Interviewer

Which is what?

2:21

-

I can't think of the name of it.

2:23

Interviewer

Okay.

2:25

Do you know?

2:27

Man

Sierra Vista.

2:29

-

Oh, where was it?

2:30

Man

At Huachuca.

2:31

-

Yeah. What's AIT stand for?

2:33

Man

Advanced Individual Training.

2:35

-

That's it.

2:36

Interviewer

Can you tell us on camera.

2:38

-

Yeah.

2:39

I attended Advanced Individual Training

2:40

after basic training at Fort Huachuca, Arizona.

2:42

And that was for the U.S. Army interrogator course.

2:46

After that I graduated from there

2:52

and moved on to Monterey, California,

2:54

where I went to the Defense Language Institute

2:57

to learn the French language.

2:59

After graduating from there, I moved on to Fort Bragg

3:03

and was deployed to Afghanistan

3:07

from Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

3:09

Interviewer

And did you wanna become an interrogator?

3:12

-

When I initially went to the recruiters,

3:15

I told them that the job I wanted was military intelligence.

3:17

My dad was military intelligence before me.

3:22

And basically they kind of gave me the,

3:24

"Hey, we don't have any intelligence jobs available."

3:27

-

At that point I told them, "Well, you know what,

3:30

I'm gonna walk away from the table."

3:31

And then out of their magic hat, they pulled out the,

3:34

"Hey, we got this interrogator job,

3:36

but you gotta leave in two weeks."

3:39

And of course I'm like, "Hey, if that's the only job

3:41

I can get in intelligence, that's what I'm gonna do."

3:43

Interviewer

So were you trained as an interrogator

3:46

before you went to Afghanistan?

3:48

-

I was trained by the military at Fort Huachuca, Arizona.

3:50

Interviewer

How long was your training?

3:53

-

I believe the training was around eight or nine months.

3:56

I don't recall off hand.

4:00

Interviewer

And did you feel like you were trained

4:02

as an interrogator when you got to Afghanistan?

4:04

You kinda knew what you needed to do?

4:06

-

I felt like I was trained in order to deal with

4:08

a set type of army, like an army around ours.

4:11

We didn't do much training with irregular forces

4:19

like we ended up dealing with overseas.

4:23

Interviewer

So when you went to Afghanistan,

4:26

was it post 9/11?

4:28

-

It was post 9/11.

4:30

9/11 actually happened while I was at

4:32

the interrogation school.

4:34

Interviewer

And even then no one ever trained you

4:36

to say, "Look, you know the way we train you

4:38

is not gonna work post 9/11."

4:41

Did anyone ever suggest that to you?

4:44

-

At that time, I graduated from the interrogation course

4:46

two months after September 11th.

4:51

So there was no revisions made for anything

4:55

that we'd be possibly facing.

4:57

Interviewer

So when you got to Afghanistan,

5:00

what did you think you were facing and what were you facing?

5:02

-

Well, by the time we made it to Afghanistan

5:06

we'd been briefed that these were Al-Qaeda

5:08

and Taliban fighters.

5:11

That's when they started telling us

5:13

about different exceptions.

5:15

The fact that any prisoners caught

5:17

were not considered prisoners of war.

5:20

They were actually considered persons under U.S. custody

5:22

that way they stay out of the Geneva Conventions.

5:25

Interviewer

What year was that

5:29

and what month, if you remember?

5:30

-

The time we went out there,

5:33

I was part of an augment group that went out there

5:35

and I believe we went out, I believe it was September.

5:37

It was either late August, early September of 2002

5:42

that we were deployed to Afghanistan.

5:46

Interviewer

And they told you as you arrived

5:50

these are not protected by the Geneva Convention,

5:53

the people that you're going to be interrogating?

5:57

-

Yes.

6:00

-

Is that kinda

what you're telling me?

6:01

-

They gave them a different designator instead of POW.

6:02

We called them PUCs, which is person under U.S. custody.

6:04

Interviewer

And did they tell you

6:09

what the difference would be

6:11

in terms of how you interrogate them?

6:12

-

Basically the interrogations would be the same

6:15

as far as questioning.

6:17

They did let us know that there was a little bit more leeway

6:20

as far as any kind of handling of the prisoners.

6:24

Interviewer

What does that mean?

6:28

-

Basically like one of the things we were allowed to do is

6:31

we could make them do pushups or something like that,

6:35

which we wouldn't be able to do with a prisoner of war.

6:37

We still weren't allowed to like assault the prisoners

6:40

or anything like that, like not physically beat them

6:43

or anything, but as far as making them stand up

6:45

the whole time or whatever we needed to do

6:50

during the interrogation.

6:52

Interviewer

And was there anybody who supervised?

6:55

Like if somebody went too far

6:57

in the way they treated a prisoner,

6:59

was there anybody there to say, you've gone too far in this?

7:01

-

Well, whenever we did the interrogation

7:06

it was only two interrogators with an interpreter

7:08

and then the prisoner.

7:11

I know later on, not in Afghanistan,

7:14

but when we did the same job out in Iraq,

7:18

most of those places have like cameras set up,

7:21

that way they could see whatever was going on.

7:24

At that time in Afghanistan there was nothing higher.

7:26

It was up to the interrogators

7:30

to police themselves, basically.

7:32

Interviewer

So if the other interrogator you were with

7:34

decided to go beyond the limit,

7:39

there was no one to stop him or her?

7:42

-

If I was ever with somebody that went over the limit,

7:45

I would be the first one to jump up and stop them.

7:47

Me personally, but I can't speak for other groups

7:52

or other interrogators.

7:54

-

Did that happen?

-

Never that I had to.

7:59

Never where I thought anybody went too far.

8:01

There's one I worked with

8:04

and this individual pulled the beard of a detainee,

8:06

which it only lasted for a second.

8:11

We kinda talked about it afterwards,

8:14

but I didn't feel a need to stop it

8:15

right there at the point.

8:17

Interviewer

Would you have been comfortable

8:18

telling a colleague to stop abusing prisoner?

8:19

-

Oh yeah, if I felt it was anything

8:24

outside of the guidelines given,

8:25

then yeah.

8:27

-

You would have.

-

Mm hm.

8:28

-

But were the guidelines

that clear?

8:30

-

Some of them weren't.

8:32

I know, for example, one of the guys I worked with,

8:35

basically I had interrogated the guy three times.

8:38

And at that point, I kept saying that he was innocent.

8:43

Like I felt the guy had nothing to lie to us about.

8:48

And I was told by my superiors at the time that,

8:52

"Hey, you know what, you're being too nice with these guys.

8:55

You need to get in there, you need to be harsher.

8:58

You need to be rougher."

9:00

And that was something I definitely wasn't comfortable with,

9:02

but I tried it-

9:06

-

How'd you try?

9:09

-

And it eventually led.

One of the things I did was I actually

9:11

grabbed the guy by his shirt

9:13

and then I just kind of walked him around the room.

9:17

Just kinda let him know, hey, I'm the guy in charge.

9:19

I'm the one you gotta talk to.

9:21

It's against my nature to be physical with anybody.

9:25

So I tried it and same results.

9:30

I mean, I still maintain he's innocent at this point.

9:33

Interviewer

How'd you feel about yourself

9:38

after you did that?

9:39

-

I felt bad.

9:41

I felt like even through talking to this prisoner

9:43

that I'd gained his trust so much that I kinda betrayed

9:46

whatever, what we had.

9:50

At that point, I felt like I had lost him for good.

9:53

Like at that point, there's no reason

9:56

why I should ever talk to him again.

9:57

Interviewer

Is that true, did you lose him for good?

9:59

-

I mean, he didn't respond to me the same anymore.

10:02

It wasn't that, oh, hey, I'm gonna talk to this guy.

10:05

It's like, is he gonna hurt me for real

10:07

or something like that?

10:11

So definitely went against my better judgment.

10:13

Interviewer

Had you heard of any interrogators

10:17

going outside the lines while you were there?

10:20

-

Only rumors.

10:23

Nothing that I witnessed or anything like that.

10:24

Interviewer

And were you afraid of these detainees?

10:29

-

Me, no, not personally, no.

10:33

Interviewer

Why do you think about what he said

10:35

they were worst of the worst.

10:37

-

Honestly, it's a controlled environment.

10:40

I am six foot four and most of these guys

10:44

are closer to five 10 at the tallest.

10:47

So personally, I never felt threatened by them.

10:50

I've had one were he jumped across the table,

10:56

but it was kinda push him back real quick

10:59

and he went back in his seat and that's it.

11:01

I'll usual just stand up and if they're loud

11:05

or they look like they're gonna get violent,

11:08

for me standing up was enough to get them to stop.

11:10

'Cause kinda look up and go, maybe this isn't the best idea.

11:13

Interviewer

Had you heard of situations

11:20

before you arrived where some interrogators

11:22

might've been more brutal?

11:24

-

No, like I said anything would be rumors.

11:27

Interviewer

And two detainees died in Bagram.

11:33

Were you present for either one of 'em?

11:38

-

One of them was Dilawar.

11:41

That was the one I was talking about.

11:43

The one that they wanted me to get rougher with.

11:44

Interviewer

And that's the one where you were rougher,

11:47

walk him around the room?

11:49

-

Yeah, that was the one.

11:50

Interviewer

And then, how soon after did he die?

11:51

Where were you in that whole process

11:55

if you were his interrogator, so how did that happen?

11:57

-

I was designated as main interrogator.

12:00

I know what led up to his was a bunch of different things.

12:05

I know part of it was the sleep deprivation.

12:09

My superiors had ordered that he be on sleep deprivation.

12:15

So basically he was standing in his cell.

12:19

I forget exactly what the timeframe was now.

12:21

I think they allowed like two hours of sleep,

12:24

but it didn't have to be consecutive.

12:27

So it could have been 10 minutes here,

12:30

stretched throughout the day.

12:33

Part of it was, I know there was

12:36

one of the military police officers that were there,

12:39

that admitted to giving him these

12:42

peroneal knee strikes is what they were calling 'em.

12:44

I guess it's a strike to the back of the knee,

12:46

which eventually formed a blood clot that went to his heart.

12:49

One of the last times I ever talked to him,

12:54

we'd pulled him out and you could tell

12:58

that he'd been awake for a long time.

13:00

He personally told me that his wife came to visit him

13:03

the night before.

13:06

And you could just see it, he was barely there anymore.

13:07

Interviewer

Was that true, did his wife really come,

13:12

or was that his fantasy?

13:14

-

That was his fantasy.

13:15

He had been awake so long, or whatever was going on

13:17

inside his body, he was convinced she was there.

13:20

Those prisoners were definitely not getting visitors.

13:24

Interviewer

And were you present

13:28

when the guards were kicking him behind the knee?

13:29

-

No, I'd never witnessed it.

13:33

Interviewer

Did you have any idea

13:37

that he was being brutalized during that time or?

13:38

-

No, I had no idea that he was receiving

13:42

any kinda strikes to his knees or anything like that.

13:44

That's all information that came to light later.

13:47

Interviewer

And just so the audience,

13:51

who might be watching this 50 years from now,

13:52

could you give a little background

13:55

on who Dilawar was in the movie,

13:56

just so they understand the context.

13:57

-

Dilawar was an Afghani civilian that they picked up.

14:00

He was a taxi driver.

14:06

He had three other gentlemen in his car.

14:08

They picked him up in a raid

14:11

and accused him of firing rockets

14:14

and other things at a U.S. base.

14:17

I couldn't recall which one it was anymore.

14:20

Interviewer

And then, what movie made that famous?

14:23

-

It was a movie called "Taxi to the Dark Side."

14:26

Interviewer

And when he told you that his wife

14:29

had visited him and you knew

14:35

that was hallucination, fantasy,

14:37

did you begin to worry that maybe this man is dying?

14:40

Or what were you thinking?

14:42

-

In my eyes, like I had no reason to believe

14:46

that he'd ever die from anything that was going on

14:49

that I was aware of.

14:51

I was aware that they had him on sleep dep chart,

14:54

the sleep deprivation chart.

14:56

And I asked that he be removed

14:58

because basically he's speaking gibberish at this point

15:00

and you can't talk to somebody like that.

15:04

You're not gonna get anything that's gonna help anyone.

15:06

So, at that time I'd asked he be removed from it.

15:08

But I think it was too late at that point.

15:12

I don't think he lasted too much longer.

15:15

Interviewer

So, if you're his interrogator,

15:17

my understanding is that the interrogator

15:18

kinda controls the situation.

15:20

So how could the military act on him without your knowledge?

15:22

Shouldn't the interrogator be aware

15:31

of how people are treated?

15:32

-

As, you know, being one of the lower enlisted,

15:35

any kind of sleep deprivation had to be approved

15:40

by people that were higher up than us.

15:43

In order to be taken off it was the same thing.

15:46

Normally they'd do it on our recommendation,

15:49

but kinda like I said previously,

15:52

they felt like I wasn't being strict enough with this guy.

15:54

So they took it upon themselves

15:58

to place him on sleep deprivation

15:59

and really I had no say in it.

16:03

It was, go back in there and talk to him again.

16:05

Interviewer

And my understanding is that

16:08

he also hung by his wrists.

16:09

Is that true, do you know about that?

16:11

-

When they had them in sleep deprivation,

16:14

usually what they do is, honestly we call them cages

16:17

that they kept them in,

16:21

and it was covered all the way around,

16:23

so even the top had a grate on there.

16:25

And they would put a pair of handcuffs through the grate

16:28

and basically it'd be just high enough

16:31

for them to be able to stand with their feet on the floor.

16:33

They wouldn't give 'em any room to like bend the knees

16:39

or anything like that.

16:41

Interviewer

Did you see him in that position, or?

16:43

-

I've seen other prisoners in that position.

16:45

I couldn't tell you if I actually saw him in it or not.

16:48

Interviewer

And was that considered when you came

16:51

a legitimate way to treat the detainees

16:54

that was accepted by-

16:57

-

That was an accepted way.

17:00

-

By your superiors.

-

That was one they used on,

17:02

that form of sleep deprivation

17:03

is what they used on multiple prisoners.

17:05

Interviewer

And when Dilawar died, what did you think?

17:08

-

I thought it was some kind of freak accident

17:12

or something like, like I said, at the time

17:14

we didn't really stay around the prisoners.

17:19

The only time we ever saw 'em

17:23

was when they brought 'em up to our interrogation booths.

17:24

I mean, we had a catwalk where we could see

17:28

the main group of people, but I know he was separated.

17:30

So, in order to get down to where he was,

17:34

I'd have to go through the MPs area

17:37

and everything else to get down there.

17:39

Interviewer

And so you were ultimately charged

17:42

for his death, is that what you were charged for?

17:47

Or what were you charged for?

17:48

-

They charged me with assault and battery.

17:50

Interviewer

On Dilawar, or other detainees?

17:54

-

On Dilawar, just on Dilawar.

17:55

Interviewer

And what was the assault and battery?

17:58

How did they describe it?

18:00

-

Basically they said, they went down to the finest

18:03

definition of the law.

18:06

Because like I previously told you,

18:08

I'd grabbed him by the shirt.

18:10

That was considered assault.

18:12

Or the fact I moved him against his will

18:14

was considered battery.

18:16

And so they got me on assault and battery for that.

18:18

And I think those were the only two.

18:22

Interviewer

At what point did they charge you?

18:25

How much after that incident?

18:27

-

That incident happened, I think it was around October

18:29

or November of 2002.

18:33

And I was not charged until,

18:35

I believe it was September of 2005

18:40

was when I was formally charged.

18:44

Interviewer

Did you see it coming?

18:47

-

No, we'd actually been cleared of the charges

18:48

three separate times beforehand.

18:51

There had been ongoing investigations

18:56

and then they found us not at fault.

18:58

And then they went back and looked at it,

19:01

not at fault again.

19:02

Not at fault again.

19:03

And then apparently out of the blue, they decided that,

19:05

"Oh, we found something that wasn't there

19:08

three years before."

19:10

Which from what I heard is another soldier

19:12

made some kind of statement,

19:17

which reopened the whole thing or something.

19:19

Interviewer

And what were you thinking then

19:23

when you were charged?

19:25

-

Well, definitely when they brought it up again

19:27

I was like, "Oh, well, I'm like, here we are

19:29

going through the motions again."

19:31

At that point, I'm two months away

19:33

from getting out of the army anyway.

19:35

So I'm like, I'm gonna have to deal with this.

19:37

And then they'll say, "Oh, you're all good again, go home."

19:39

Didn't turn out quite that way this time.

19:44

Interviewer

What did happen?

19:46

-

They brought me up on charges.

19:49

I believe what they told me is

19:52

I was looking at at a possibility of two years

19:54

for assault and battery.

19:57

One of the other soldiers in the unit had made a plea deal.

20:00

So my lawyer had told me that, "Best case scenario

20:03

is you take this plea deal, walk away like this soldier.

20:08

She did it.

20:12

She got away, no charges at all.

20:13

She just admitted it was wrong.

20:15

Got knocked down in rank, got fined."

20:17

So I decided you know what,

20:20

it's better than dragging this thing out

20:22

and having a possibility of anything.

20:24

So I took the same deal.

20:27

At that point, the judge gave me two months confinement,

20:29

reduction in pay grade E1 and a $750 fine.

20:35

Interviewer

And what does the confinement mean?

20:41

Were you actually put in a cell for two months?

20:44

-

Yes, I was sent to Fort Lewis, Washington,

20:48

where I was in military jail for two months

20:51

before receiving a bad conduct discharge.

20:57

Interviewer

How does that differ

21:00

from a dishonorable discharge?

21:01

-

It's pretty much the same.

21:04

Basically, you can consider it one step higher.

21:07

Still, I honestly, I don't know why

21:11

they just didn't call it dishonorable at that point.

21:14

'Cause I have, it was never really made clear to me

21:15

exactly why this one's different.

21:18

Interviewer

Do you lose the same benefits.

21:20

-

I lost all benefits, GI Bill, yeah, no VA healthcare,

21:23

or nothing like that.

21:30

Interviewer

Did you know that when you pled out,

21:31

that you would lose all these, if you agreed to the plea?

21:33

-

It was not made clear to me, no.

21:38

Interviewer

Did you ever say anything

21:40

to your lawyer afterwards, that you think you got

21:41

more than you agreed to?

21:43

-

I had only talked to her one other time after that.

21:48

And then even when I was locked up

21:53

they made me write my appeals while I was behind bars.

21:54

And what so happened to happen after I got locked up

21:59

was my appendix burst while I was in jail.

22:04

So, I had to go through this whole thing.

22:07

Basically, they accused me of lying while I was in there.

22:12

-

In the prison?

22:15

-

In the prison.

They thought I was some kind of hunger strike

22:17

or something like that.

22:18

'Cause I wouldn't eat.

22:19

I mean, my body was trying to fight itself at that point.

22:20

They finally took me to the hospital.

22:24

My body was almost completely septic at the point.

22:27

So they get me into surgery and I stayed in the hospital,

22:31

I don't know, it's probably about a week or two after that,

22:35

before they finally released me back to the jail.

22:38

Then when I got to the jail is when I started

22:41

getting correspondence from my lawyer again

22:43

about writing my appeals for my case.

22:46

And at the time I was on Oxycontin,

22:50

just cause my body was still recovering.

22:53

So basically, I had to write my appeals without any help

22:56

while I'm on basically a controlled narcotic for pain.

23:01

So that was two weeks in jail that I'm kind of happy,

23:04

'cause I don't have to remember it.

23:10

But I mean, it was wake up, eat breakfast, take two pills,

23:11

and then you're right back out because of those.

23:16

Lunch, two pills, dinner, two pills,

23:19

same cycle for two weeks.

23:22

And I don't know what my appeals letter looked like.

23:23

I couldn't tell you what was on there.

23:27

Something tells me being that drugged up,

23:30

it's probably not very good considering the state I was in

23:32

and where I was at.

23:35

So, yeah. (chuckles)

23:36

Interviewer

So how did you feel about

23:41

having this plea bargain?

23:46

Did you think it was gonna hurt your future

23:47

or did you not think about it at that point?

23:50

-

At the time, like I said I was two months away

23:52

from getting out of the military.

23:56

So I thought I'd take the plea deal,

23:58

take my reduction in rank, take the fine,

24:02

and then just get out on good terms and call it a career.

24:05

I didn't want any more after going through all that.

24:10

So my plan was to never stay in.

24:13

I wanted to get out, go get that GI Bill and go to college.

24:19

Interviewer

And you lost that.

24:24

-

Lost all that.

24:25

Interviewer

Before we go any further about that,

24:29

how long were you in Bagram before you left Bagram?

24:32

-

We were at Bagram for about six, seven months.

24:36

Interviewer

And then where'd you go?

24:42

-

We got back to Fort Bragg.

24:43

The day we get back, they had our welcome home ceremony.

24:46

Well, my family lives in Texas, so we weren't allowed

24:52

to tell anyone we were coming home.

24:55

Interviewer

Why is that?

24:58

-

Operational security.

25:00

They told us we're not allowed to tell anyone.

25:01

So I show up and I got no family there or anything.

25:04

It's kinda nice, 'cause my parents probably wouldn't have

25:06

liked what happened there.

25:08

I believe it was either our sergeant major

25:11

or our battalion commander, one of the two,

25:13

basically said, "Hey, welcome home, great job over there.

25:17

Don't bother unpacking your bags.

25:20

You're getting ready to go to Iraq."

25:21

And after about 45 days of being home,

25:24

we were back on a plane heading overseas.

25:28

And what was your job in Iraq?

25:31

Same thing, as an interrogator.

25:33

Interviewer

Where?

25:35

-

All over.

25:37

We were there, we went there in 2003.

25:39

We were there right when the invasion began.

25:42

So our unit was kind of split up

25:44

and we were kinda moved around all over the country.

25:46

Interviewer

Were you at Abu Ghraib too?

25:49

-

Yes, I was at Abu Ghraib.

25:50

Interviewer

Were you there when the,

25:51

I guess the prison guards were abusing the prisoners?

25:57

-

I know we were there around the same time.

26:02

'Cause while we're there I never heard of it,

26:05

but I definitely ended up seeing it on AFN or whatever,

26:07

when it came to light to the public.

26:10

But yeah, so I believe it was

26:14

at the same time we were there.

26:16

I know some of the same people were there.

26:17

Interviewer

Did it surprise you

26:20

since you had not heard anything about it

26:21

and yet you were there?

26:23

-

It definitely did.

26:25

And especially, any corridor you walked down in there,

26:26

the first thing you'd see is no photography

26:29

beyond this point.

26:31

-

Really.

-

And it was every hallway or anything that led

26:33

towards where those prisoners were kept.

26:36

Interviewer

And you never got charged

26:40

for any behavior in Iraq?

26:41

Did you get charged for any behavior

26:45

you committed in Iraq or it was just Afghanistan.

26:47

-

I got an article 15 in Iraq.

26:51

-

What is that?

-

That's just a judicial punishment.

26:54

It wasn't anything criminal.

26:56

Interviewer

Was that from interrogating also?

26:58

Was that also coming from the interrogation of someone?

27:02

-

That was non-interrogation on that one.

27:06

-

So when you left the military,

27:09

where do you think your life is gonna go forward

27:13

if you couldn't get to go to college,

27:15

at least outta the GI Bill?

27:16

What were you thinking would happen next?

27:18

Or what did happen next?

27:20

-

Just getting out basically it was trying to recover

27:23

from not being able to work.

27:26

There was kind of a lull there just trying to find a job.

27:31

At that point, I was still trying to recover

27:37

from having my appendectomy too.

27:39

My body still wasn't back to normal yet.

27:42

And then just basically picking up whatever jobs I could.

27:47

Interviewer

Did employers say they didn't wanna hire you

27:50

because you had a bad conduct discharge about what happened?

27:52

-

Honestly, I never went for any jobs

27:56

that looked that far into it.

27:57

Being an interrogator is not exactly a skill

28:00

that will translate over well to the civilian world.

28:02

I did try and look at law enforcement.

28:07

Basically because of the assault charge that was a no-go

28:10

for at least 10 years.

28:14

And I didn't have any college,

28:19

so basically it's kinda like starting back over.

28:20

I went to go work at Domino's as a delivery driver.

28:24

Interviewer

Did you think about going to school

28:27

on your own?

28:28

Even without a GI Bill.

28:29

-

I thought about it, but you know,

28:31

just what little debt I did have from the army,

28:33

I mean, it's not something where I could,

28:36

no real financial assistance to do anything with.

28:39

I was more working in the hole when I first got out,

28:44

than actually making money.

28:47

Interviewer

What was your attitude when you got out?

28:51

Would you say you were depressed or angry,

28:53

or is it another emotion you can explain?

28:56

-

Definitely depressed.

29:00

I felt betrayed.

29:04

Interviewer

By whom?

29:06

-

Basically by my government.

29:08

By the way we were treated with everything.

29:10

And the way they just kind of toss you out after that.

29:13

I mean, I was stationed in Fort Bragg.

29:17

They had my court martial in El Paso.

29:20

Sent me to jail in Seattle.

29:25

And basically when my time's over,

29:28

there's like a, here's a bus ticket home and like $50.

29:31

I forget exactly what it was.

29:35

I'm like, oh, yeah.

29:37

So I got a two-week bus ride and 50 bucks.

29:38

Thank you.

29:42

Interviewer

And you felt the army didn't look after you

29:44

when you did the work for them over those four years,

29:47

is that what you're saying?

29:50

-

They never, you know, it was kinda, hey,

29:53

especially in my situation, it was that,

29:57

getting sent to Seattle.

30:01

Getting locked up for two months.

30:04

And then like I said, it's like,

30:06

"Here's your bus ticket, goodbye."

30:07

Interviewer

So that was the betrayal.

30:10

And how was your family?

30:14

Was your family there to greet you?

30:17

Was your family supportive?

30:18

-

Oh, my family is very supportive of me.

30:20

Even my parents sat in on the court martial and everything.

30:25

And they were not happy about.

30:28

A lot of it you could tell it was a witch hunt.

30:32

A lot of it was because of Abu Ghraib.

30:35

I mean, everybody that's lower enlisted,

30:41

everything rolls downhill as they say.

30:45

And definitely didn't splash anywhere higher than us.

30:48

You know, the people that were telling us to do it

30:51

stayed in the military, advanced their careers.

30:54

I'm sure they didn't have any second thoughts about us.

31:01

Interviewer

You ever point your finger

31:04

at the people above you as-

31:05

-

I was called to a federal grand jury hearing

31:07

where I was more than happy

31:10

to lead them in the right direction.

31:12

Interviewer

Did you?

31:16

Did you lead 'em?

31:17

And did it make a difference?

31:18

-

No, they never pursued anything further.

31:20

Interviewer

Do you think that's true

31:25

for your colleagues too that they were all just

31:26

at the bottom of the rung and they were the ones

31:29

who paid the price for all that went on.

31:32

-

That's the way I definitely feel

31:36

as far as anything that happened

31:37

to any of the other interrogators in my unit.

31:39

Interviewer

The people who gave you orders

31:46

did they ever apologize to you?

31:47

Did they ever say anything to you?

31:48

Like, sorry you got stuck in this

31:49

or did they just ignore you after that?

31:51

-

No, a lot of 'em, especially being the timeframe

31:53

that everything happened,

31:57

they had already moved on to other places.

31:59

So, I'm sure we were just in the rear view,

32:01

if anything else.

32:04

Interviewer

Do you have any regrets

32:08

about joining the military after this story?

32:09

-

Oh, definitely, it's something I always wanted to do.

32:13

I wanted to do it for the college, get out on my own.

32:17

After the way everything worked out,

32:20

I don't know, other than the friends I made,

32:24

I mean if I could go back, I'd be like, you know what? No.

32:28

Either that I would have lost some more weight,

32:32

so I could join the Air Force and avoided the whole thing.

32:34

Interviewer

And how's your life going now, Glen?

32:42

Were you able to get better jobs over time?

32:45

-

I was able to get better jobs over time.

32:48

While I was doing the delivery thing,

32:51

I eventually got set up.

32:53

Goodwill has a great program.

32:57

It's kind of like a technical school.

32:59

So I went and did computer repair.

33:01

Then I got a job at a call center

33:04

and that was doing tech support

33:07

for one of the big companies for their cable service

33:09

and internet service,

33:16

where I eventually made it to supervisor.

33:18

Interviewer

Is that where you are today?

33:21

-

Actually, just got fired from that job.

33:23

Interviewer

Can you tell us why?

33:26

-

I really don't wanna get into that one. (chuckles)

33:30

Interviewer

So, do you see your career advancing now?

33:32

Will you be able to get another job?

33:36

-

What I've noticed is a lotta places,

33:39

especially since the incident was 2002,

33:43

most people don't even, they won't look at it.

33:48

A lot of the times I just avoid putting

33:51

any kind of military on there.

33:53

That way they don't have to ask about my records.

33:56

I'll list I'm a veteran, but if they want like a DD 214,

33:59

I just don't even pursue it at that point.

34:03

'Cause it's pretty much a, "Hey, you're done in the water."

34:06

Interviewer

I mean, do you think,

34:11

do you think any of your colleagues committed serious crimes

34:16

or do you think all of this is really

34:21

the supervisory personnel who should be blamed?

34:24

Looking back, what do you really think went on back then?

34:28

-

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised

34:33

if people were doing things they weren't supposed to.

34:34

I mean, people were always talking.

34:37

Like I said, it was all rumors to me.

34:40

There are people that I know that walked.

34:44

Like the one I don't, I hate to point anybody out

34:48

or anything, but people that went on trial.

34:51

'Cause I know a bunch of us took deals

34:58

and there were some that took deals that I know were,

35:00

they did some things.

35:04

I could tell just because we are interrogators

35:06

and it's kind of hard to lie to one another.

35:08

But again, like I said, it was rumors that I never saw.

35:11

Interviewer

I mean, it's funny,

35:16

did you keep to yourself when in at night

35:18

and so it was just rumors

35:22

that you were somehow removed from a lot of it?

35:23

Because certainly what people read,

35:27

there was a lot going on.

35:28

-

Especially Afghanistan, I went there

35:32

as part of an augment group.

35:33

The core group of people had been there the whole time.

35:36

I was still fairly new to the unit.

35:39

So I didn't really, you know.

35:41

Outta that whole group, I actually don't think

35:45

I knew anyone.

35:49

There was one that I knew, but he was working in a separate,

35:51

he was over in Kurdistan whatever, yeah, Kurdistan.

35:54

Uzbekistan, he was over in Uzbekistan.

36:01

So he got sent over to a different country while I'm there

36:04

and that was the only person I truly knew at the time.

36:06

So I was kinda the outsider when I got there.

36:09

Interviewer

So from your outside perspective,

36:14

did it seem because you were told everything was acceptable,

36:16

did it seem acceptable to you?

36:21

You just didn't question it.

36:22

-

I really didn't question it.

36:25

They did briefings like during our shift change,

36:27

where we'd go over different things.

36:32

And I mean, everybody was there hearing the same thing.

36:34

So I mean, if I'm the lowest ranking, newest guy to the unit

36:36

and nobody else is here questioning anything,

36:41

I'm just sorta kinda gonna go with it.

36:43

If I had went in there and they said,

36:47

"Oh, go punch this guy in the nose."

36:48

Then of course I'm gonna be like,

36:50

"No, that's not what we're supposed to do here."

36:52

But there was never any kinda

36:54

clear guidelines really given.

36:57

Interviewer

Did you see people taking drugs

37:01

during those times?

37:04

-

I never saw anyone taking drugs, no.

37:05

Interviewer

Was there heavy drinking?

37:08

-

I know there was some drinking going on.

37:10

I'd lie if I said I didn't on my own birthday

37:14

while I was out there have a couple drinks

37:16

that somehow made it to our camp.

37:18

Interviewer

I mean, it doesn't sound like

37:25

you were one of the good old boys.

37:26

Sounds like you were really separate from them.

37:27

And I wonder, how many people were you sent with

37:29

in your augment group?

37:32

How many others were there?

37:33

-

I think maybe about 10 at the most.

37:39

Interviewer

And you didn't hang out with them either,

37:42

or they didn't, you know?

37:44

-

No, a lot of them I believe were married at the time.

37:47

So they weren't even staying in the barracks

37:50

when we were together.

37:51

Interviewer

Their wives could come to Afghanistan?

37:52

-

Well no, I mean, before we went overseas.

37:54

So the only time I really had any alone time with them

37:58

or whatever, was traveling over there.

38:01

Interviewer

And then when you were over there

38:04

wouldn't you have a alone time with them

38:05

because they didn't have their wives

38:06

and they would be the augmented group?

38:08

-

Well, you know, they all still knew each other.

38:10

Like I said, I was still the new guy to the unit.

38:13

Interviewer

Would you recommend other people

38:19

go into a military today?

38:20

-

Not anymore.

38:22

-

Really.

Why wouldn't you recommend it?

38:23

-

It's just not worth it.

38:26

I mean, they're gonna put you over there

38:28

and it's to me, I know the way I've been treated.

38:29

The last thing I'd hate is for somebody I recommend

38:36

to join the military to go there, get sent off to war

38:39

and then get tossed out like I did.

38:42

I would hate to put somebody through that knowingly.

38:46

Interviewer

And you think because of Abu Ghraib,

38:50

you kind of said earlier, I just want to have that on film,

38:52

because of Abu Ghraib, is that why the military came back

38:55

and looked at your unit

38:57

and that's why you became victimized, if you will, for that?

39:00

That's how you see it?

39:04

-

Right.

39:05

Interviewer

Did you know interrogators in Abu Ghraib

39:08

who would have been aware of what was going on?

39:12

-

No, not there, no.

39:15

I've seen the pictures that were released.

39:20

I've even seen pictures that weren't released to the public,

39:22

at least I don't believe were.

39:26

And there was never an interrogator that I knew

39:28

that I saw on any of those pictures.

39:31

That was all MPs.

39:33

And being in interrogation field's very, very small.

39:36

If I didn't know 'em, then you know,

39:40

my colleagues would know 'em.

39:42

And when you looked at those pictures,

39:44

we knew that wasn't interrogators involved in that.

39:47

Interviewer

Do you think that was

39:51

from the top-down also?

39:52

Do you think those MPs were instructed by someone else?

39:53

-

I would say no, only because it was clearly posted

39:59

not to take pictures.

40:03

That was everywhere.

40:05

Any corridor, like I said, you went down you would see that.

40:07

No photography beyond this point.

40:10

Interviewer

Was that true in Afghanistan, in Bagram?

40:12

-

In Bagram it was very controlled.

40:15

You had to get through like a little checkpoint

40:19

at the beginning before you could ever go in.

40:21

And the only cameras I ever saw there

40:24

were ones we had for initial screening.

40:26

So I never saw anybody with cameras there.

40:30

I don't even think digital cameras

40:32

were that popular at that point.

40:34

Interviewer

But in 2003 at Abu Ghraib

40:36

there were all these signs saying no photos

40:38

and why would there be signs that said no photos?

40:41

What would be the purpose of those signs?

40:43

Who were they, what were they, I mean, if there-

40:46

-

As far as I know, maybe they were posted

40:48

after they'd caught these MPs doing that.

40:50

'Cause I'd never seen those anywhere else

40:54

that we had a collection point set up.

40:56

In Afghanistan, I never saw a no photography sign,

41:00

I don't believe.

41:03

Unless it was something more related towards the press

41:05

or something like that.

41:07

But these ones were clearly

41:08

not made for press at Abu Ghraib.

41:10

Interviewer

Did you ever go to Kandahar?

41:13

Did you ever work in Kandahar?

41:15

-

I never got the chance.

41:16

I was at Bagram the whole time.

41:17

Interviewer

And after Iraq, where'd you go next?

41:19

-

After Iraq, it was back at Bragg for the rest of the time.

41:23

-

And at that time, when you said they did bring charges

41:27

and then dropped them, did you fear that maybe

41:29

they would bring them again?

41:32

Or did you have any concerns at all?

41:33

-

Honestly, I thought once they look into and it's done,

41:36

I thought it was done.

41:39

I was like, "All right, they looked into it.

41:40

They saw that, hey, I didn't do anything out of line.

41:43

I'm gonna be good."

41:48

And then when it came up again, it was like,

41:50

again I was just kinda like, "What's going on here.

41:55

We've already been cleared."

41:57

And then actually, I'd gotten word

41:59

from somebody I knew that worked there the third time

42:01

when they were actually gonna bring up charges,

42:05

I was at home on leave.

42:08

I was at home visiting my family.

42:09

And they kinda called me, I mean, it wasn't official channel

42:11

but they worked around it.

42:15

So they kind of said, "Hey, this just came in.

42:16

They're gonna put you on trial for this."

42:20

And like I'm at home on leave

42:23

and my heart just hit the floor.

42:25

I'm like, you know, I couldn't believe what was happening.

42:28

It was, I don't know.

42:32

I don't even know how to put it.

42:35

Interviewer

And did you have a lawyer at that point

42:37

or did your parents help you get a lawyer?

42:40

How did that work?

42:42

-

No.

42:43

I mean, I didn't have money to get my own lawyer, so.

42:46

Interviewer

Used a military lawyer?

42:49

And what'd your parents say?

42:51

Did you tell them when you were home

42:54

after you just got charged?

42:56

-

I didn't when I was there at home.

42:59

I didn't want them to worry about that when I was there.

43:02

I wanted to make sure that it was true when I got back

43:05

before I ever brought it up.

43:07

Interviewer

And did your lawyer confirm

43:10

what you told us that he also or she also thought

43:12

that it was because of Abu Ghraib,

43:15

the fallout from Abu Ghraib?

43:17

-

No, they never really talked that much about it.

43:19

Interviewer

You think you were,

43:23

your mistake to have pled?

43:24

Do you think you should've gone to trial?

43:26

-

I definitely think I shoulda gone to trial.

43:28

Interviewer

Why?

43:31

-

'Cause after mine, I went back for one of my friends

43:34

when they had their court martial.

43:38

And when I looked at the jury of the peers,

43:40

and if I had told my story to them

43:43

and put it in their hands,

43:45

there's no way that, I woulda just walked out of there.

43:47

Just went right back to my job

43:54

where I coulda started clearing out and go home.

43:55

Interviewer

And your story is what you told us?

44:00

Basically just grabbing the guy by the shirt.

44:03

-

It's all official records.

44:09

I don't know how open it is, but.

44:10

Interviewer

And the person who died in Afghanistan,

44:13

were you involved with him at all?

44:15

-

No.

44:16

-

You never met him.

Had you ever met Omar Khadr while you were in Bagram?

44:18

-

Don't believe so.

44:24

I don't know a lot of that, I forget names.

44:28

Interviewer

He was a juvenile.

44:30

He was a young kid who had been shot by the military.

44:31

-

They called him Buckshot,

44:37

I believe.

44:39

-

Yeah.

-

He had gotten shot in the-

44:40

Interviewer

In the eye and also in the back.

44:41

-

I had heard of him.

44:45

I'd never spoken with him myself.

44:45

Of course, everybody kind of talked about him

44:49

because of his story.

44:51

As far as I know that basically they came to take him,

44:54

and of course he got shot with the buckshot.

45:01

What else, I believe it was him was they told me that

45:06

he had tossed a grenade that had killed one of the medics.

45:10

And the only other thing I heard

45:17

that he had Canadian citizenship as well.

45:18

But I never personally talked to him.

45:22

Again, that was just everybody else was talking about him.

45:25

He was definitely the youngest.

45:29

That's what made it stick out.

45:31

Interviewer

Why do you know he was

45:33

definitely the youngest?

45:34

-

Just his age.

45:36

Like you never saw anybody smaller than him.

45:37

Interviewer

Did you have any sympathy

45:41

for the detainees at any point?

45:42

Or did you, I mean, I know that many military officials

45:44

and interrogators probably, and even the prison guards,

45:50

didn't treat them with humanity, or didn't see 'em as that

45:54

because you can't abet the enemy.

45:58

Is that how you saw it, or is that,

46:00

what was your sense of the men?

46:02

-

I just saw them as people.

46:05

A lot of our interactions we had to,

46:08

especially being lowest rank,

46:10

was I had to help bring in the local workers

46:13

that were working on the roof of the building.

46:15

So I was used to interacting with them outside of the prison

46:17

and inside of it as well.

46:20

So I never once looked and you know.

46:24

I can tell you another prisoner we had.

46:28

He was assigned to me at first until I told them

46:31

I'm not talking to him anymore basically.

46:34

They told me, "Oh, he's acting mentally challenged.

46:37

That's an Al-Qaeda ploy to throw you off."

46:43

And after talking to this guy like three times

46:46

and he made some very questionable moves

46:52

that are not sanitary at all, but I determined that he was,

46:54

you know, mentally challenged.

46:59

Like this guy, he's not hiding anything.

47:00

There's nothing to hide, like that's it.

47:03

And I felt so bad 'cause they passed him along

47:08

to so many other people just trying to get him

47:10

to talk about something.

47:12

And I know one of the other,

47:14

one of the other detainees that was in there

47:18

basically told us that, "Hey, he went to, he went,"

47:20

'cause I guess they had like a bathroom,

47:25

which was kind of like a cutoff oil barrel.

47:27

And basically he jumped in there

47:30

and kind of splashed around with his feet.

47:31

Saying if he was acting that was really good acting.

47:34

But no, that guy was, he wasn't supposed to be there.

47:37

As far as I know, he got sent back off

47:41

to wherever they found him.

47:43

But that was one I felt bad 'cause I'm like,

47:44

"This kid is just like going through the wringer,"

47:48

when he was going through this for Lord knows how long,

47:51

before somebody is finally gonna spit him back out.

47:54

Interviewer

And no one listened to you

47:59

when you said this person is-

48:01

-

Basically, they're like,

48:04

"Well, we're gonna get another opinion."

48:05

Interviewer

And what were you thinking about that?

48:08

Did you just figure, well, you're doing your job

48:09

and you just can't question it?

48:11

-

Yeah, I mean, I gave 'em my recommendation.

48:14

It's kind of out of my hands at that point.

48:18

They made it clear that I didn't have any power before.

48:20

Interviewer

Did you begin to change your mind

48:24

about who these "terrorists," quote, were

48:25

after working through this or?

48:29

-

Not necessarily that way, but definitely questioned

48:32

my ability to wanna do the job.

48:36

Like after the first time,

48:39

when they had the CID guys come in-

48:42

-

CID?

48:45

-

When they were.

It's the criminal investigations.

48:46

Basically they're like internal affairs,

48:49

but they're for the military.

48:51

They come in and start questioning us about it.

48:54

And I had myself removed from interrogation at that point.

48:57

Basically they just took me out of there

49:02

to where I didn't have to work in that center anymore.

49:04

Interviewer

Why'd you ask to be removed?

49:07

-

Because I felt like the only reason why

49:10

I would be even looked at for this

49:13

is because they weren't happy with the job I was doing

49:14

and trying to tell me, I need to be rougher with people,

49:18

that kinda thing.

49:20

So, I just didn't wanna be part of it.

49:21

Interviewer

Where'd they put you?

49:24

-

They put me in working like the front gate.

49:27

What we were doing was just screening the local workers.

49:30

Just kind of getting a feel for them saying,

49:33

"Oh, hire this guy, don't hire this one."

49:35

Interviewer

Did other interrogators

49:39

that you knew also have problems

49:40

in terms of being stricter or harder on the detainees.

49:43

like you, like you described yourself?

49:46

-

We definitely had one.

49:49

Like, I don't wanna say his name or anything on camera,

49:50

but he's a very religious guy.

49:53

And when we got there, he's like, "I don't wanna do it."

49:57

And I know that he did go in on interrogations

50:00

at some point, but it was more like in a computer aspect

50:04

when he's asking questions about things

50:07

they might have found on computers or whatever.

50:09

But he didn't wanna do it after we got there.

50:11

And I don't blame him.

50:15

Interviewer

Hmm.

50:17

Do you have conversations, did you see a therapist

50:21

when you got out, or have conversations with people

50:24

about what you experienced?

50:26

-

No, there was nothing I could afford on my own.

50:29

The first job I got out, when I got out

50:34

was as a delivery driver for pizza company.

50:38

So they weren't quite offering insurance

50:40

or anything for that position.

50:44

VA never contacted me or nothing like that for the military.

50:49

Basically it's like, hey, you got your discharge.

50:53

You're done.

50:55

Interviewer

Well, what about when you got a better job

50:56

and you did get medical insurance?

50:58

You think about having therapy then?

51:01

-

By the time I finally got insurance

51:05

was probably about three years ago in 2012.

51:07

And by that point there's a lotta stuff

51:12

I just don't wanna talk about anymore.

51:14

It's just, at this point,

51:19

it's been 10 years since the incident

51:22

and I've kinda found ways to cope with it myself, I guess.

51:24

Probably wouldn't turn it down if it was offered.

51:31

But, but I mean, I don't know.

51:33

It's a difficult situation.

51:38

Interviewer

Could you talk to your parents about,

51:40

or they didn't really try to talk about it?

51:42

-

I could, it's something I probably don't wanna

51:45

talk to my parents about.

51:48

I mean, I have good friends from when I was in,

51:50

we were all there together.

51:54

So at least if I need to blow off steam

51:55

I can talk to those guys.

51:58

Interviewer

How about your childhood friends,

52:02

you still friendly with anyone?

52:03

-

I've still got a few friends from high school.

52:05

But you know, they're all kinda doing their thing.

52:10

Interviewer

So what's your next step?

52:15

Are you gonna stay in San Antonio and look for work,

52:16

or how do you see your life going forward?

52:18

-

Definitely be in San Antonio, trying to get another job.

52:21

Might move out to go stay with one of my friends,

52:25

look for a job out that way.

52:29

Interviewer

Johnny, is there something you're thinking?

52:32

Johnny

Yeah, I have one question.

52:35

I mean, it strikes me listening to your story

52:37

that you were really interested

52:40

in military intelligence initially.

52:42

Like you said your dad was involved in it

52:44

and you signed up, said that's what I wanna do.

52:46

And then they trained you to do something that was,

52:49

in a way that was for a different war, it just didn't apply.

52:51

So I'm just curious, based on what you learned,

52:57

what you experienced, how would you,

53:01

you know, let's say you got put in charge of training people

53:03

to go do military intelligence,

53:06

what would you, how'd you do it differently?

53:07

What would you tell them to do?

53:10

-

Honestly, when it came to training,

53:14

like the formal part of training,

53:17

we always called it order of battle.

53:20

And that's dealing with your basic units,

53:22

starts with a soldier, goes with the squad,

53:24

goes through a company, none of that applies.

53:27

None of it applies when it comes to these guys.

53:31

It works more in cells and things like that.

53:33

The main thing I would convey

53:37

if I was in charge of training,

53:39

it don't matter who you got in there,

53:41

treat it like it's Geneva Conventions.

53:42

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise,

53:45

or try and tell you anything that might jeopardize that.

53:47

That was something they never stressed to us,

53:53

was you're gonna deal with these irregular forces

53:55

and all of a sudden, they're not gonna have

53:57

a code that you follow.

53:59

But it comes back later that you should have been

54:00

following this code, when the whole time

54:03

they were telling us not to.

54:06

I'd just make it clear.

54:07

Interviewer

Were you trained in the Geneva Conventions

54:15

during your training before you went to Afghanistan?

54:17

-

We did have sections on it in training.

54:20

Interviewer

Did it surprise you when they said

54:24

that that doesn't apply now?

54:26

-

It definitely did, but they kind of justified it

54:28

in the fact that this wasn't a regular army.

54:31

I believe if you go back and look at it,

54:35

I'm sure it's been amended by now,

54:36

but if you could find those regs from those field manuals

54:39

from back when we went through that training,

54:43

I don't recall it ever having anything about like terrorist

54:45

or anything like that in there.

54:50

Especially giving them a different designation altogether,

54:52

so that they're not POWs.

54:55

Interviewer

Johnny, do you wanna follow up on that?

55:00

Johnny

No, I think I'm good.

55:04

Interviewer

And I assume you and your colleagues

55:07

didn't really question it because you're not lawyers

55:09

and you just kind of accepted what you were told.

55:11

And did JAG, did you meet with JAG lawyers

55:14

who might've confirmed that what you were told is correct,

55:17

that these are not POWs

55:21

and you don't have to apply Geneva Conventions?

55:24

Were you told that by any JAG lawyers?

55:25

-

Not by JAG.

55:27

Well, they did have JAG come in sometimes

55:29

and actually JAG did back it up.

55:32

Because I know that there were a few of us

55:35

that had those questions

55:37

and we made sure that we were gonna ask 'em,

55:38

because we were questionable of it at first.

55:43

So of course the JAG presence that was there,

55:47

they're kind of like, "Oh yeah, yeah, it's good.

55:51

What your commander is telling you is right, go with it."

55:54

So, yeah, it's been a while since I thought about

55:58

some of this stuff.

56:02

The JAG officers did come in.

56:05

They weren't there every day, not every day,

56:07

but every now and then they would come in

56:09

and give us a brief on something, and then.

56:11

Interviewer

So you said you were

56:15

betrayed by the military.

56:16

Were you betrayed by your country too?

56:18

-

I kinda feel that way.

56:21

It's all the same to me.

56:23

I mean, I get no benefits from military, country,

56:26

nothing like that.

56:29

Johnny

One more question.

56:33

I'm curious if your parents' attitude

56:36

toward the military has changed also?

56:38

You said your dad was career military, right?

56:40

-

He's retired.

56:43

-

Retired,

but you kinda followed him in,

56:45

and then they watched all this happen to you.

56:48

How do they feel about it, the military?

56:49

-

I know my dad was definitely upset.

56:52

He's the biggest, flying the flag and everything like that.

56:56

And he was not very happy.

57:01

So I mean, same kind of thing, like even when I came home,

57:03

like they throw a party and it's the,

57:09

hey, you got screwed party, but welcome home.

57:10

Interviewer

So is he still a military supporter,

57:18

your dad?

57:20

-

No, he's out now.

57:22

He got out before I ever joined.

57:24

-

I know, but does he still believe in the military and-

57:26

-

He'll always support the troops.

57:29

But I mean, as far as,

57:31

I can tell you, definitely around that timeframe,

57:36

if I was somebody in the military I probably would have

57:38

stayed away from the house,

57:40

around the time that that happened.

57:42

I mean, he's not gonna fault individual soldiers,

57:46

but he thinks that the whole chain is screwed.

57:49

Interviewer

Do you have siblings?

57:53

-

I have one

57:54

-

A brother or sister?

57:55

-

Brother.

Interviewer

Is he in the military too?

57:57

-

He was, he only did three years and he got out.

57:58

Interviewer

And did he go to Afghanistan, or?

58:02

-

No, he never deployed.

58:04

Interviewer

Did he have any thoughts

58:06

about your experience?

58:07

Is he younger or older?

58:09

-

He's younger.

58:10

Interviewer

Did he have any thoughts

58:11

about his older brother?

58:12

-

Basically the same as like the rest of the family,

58:15

that this whole thing is crap.

58:18

Like, should've never happened.

58:19

Interviewer

Well, I think, is there something

58:25

I didn't ask you Glen, that you think might be

58:29

useful for history in terms of thinking

58:31

people might watch this 10 years from now,

58:34

or 20 years from now and they just need to understand

58:36

what happened post 9/11 and how people were caught up,

58:39

like yourself and what it all means?

58:42

And if you believe in the rule of law, how that plays out.

58:45

Is there something, when you agreed to talk to us

58:48

were you thinking about something that you'd like to share

58:51

with that kind of audience and that you wanna tell us.

58:53

-

I'm definitely, just kinda go back on that whole thing

58:57

like you know, being at the interrogation school

59:01

before September 11th, even the NCOs

59:05

and everybody would be like, "Hey, you know,

59:09

a lot of this stuff, don't worry about it.

59:12

You're gonna go to your unit.

59:15

They don't need interrogators.

59:16

There's less than 600 of you in the army right now.

59:18

You're gonna go to your unit

59:21

and you're gonna be stuck in the motor pool.

59:22

That's gonna be your life.

59:25

You're gonna be working on vehicles in the motor pool."

59:26

And then you know that one day, September 11th,

59:29

of course we're outta class for a few days after that

59:34

and we go back and it's like, "Hey, guess what?

59:36

All that stuff we were telling you, you know,

59:38

don't worry about it, guess what?

59:40

It's pretty high on your list now.

59:42

And because you're an interrogator,

59:43

you're probably not even gonna go to language school

59:45

because there's less than 600 of you.

59:47

So we're gonna have to start shipping you guys over there."

59:49

And I mean, it wasn't set up for what happened.

59:53

Of course, nobody was at that point.

59:56

Definitely had the worst timing for going into that job,

1:00:00

that's for sure.

1:00:04

So, I hope it's all settled out now.

1:00:05

Interviewer

What should they have done,

1:00:10

if there was this emergency, and they need to get the intel

1:00:12

and they didn't have the interrogators,

1:00:16

what should they have done instead of what they did do?

1:00:17

-

I don't know.

1:00:21

At the time they were good at outsourcing everything.

1:00:22

I mean, with your Blackwaters and whatnot.

1:00:24

I'm sure there are companies out there

1:00:27

that offer interrogation services.

1:00:29

Even when I was in Iraq, they brought one,

1:00:32

we went through a civilian interrogation course,

1:00:35

which I don't remember the name of the company.

1:00:39

I mean, something like that could have been an option

1:00:44

at that point, at least while they're trying

1:00:47

to ramp people up.

1:00:48

Interviewer

So you never really were trained

1:00:51

for that kind of work, as you said.

1:00:54

And they threw you in to it.

1:00:57

-

I mean, I guarantee you like when I went through

1:00:58

the interrogation course that was

1:01:00

probably the smallest section on it

1:01:03

was like a regular forces.

1:01:04

The rest of it was all, "Hey, you're gonna fight Russia."

1:01:07

Gonna fight Russia is gonna have all these squads

1:01:11

and everything like that.

1:01:13

Hopefully by this point in time it's changed.

1:01:18

It's more addressed to the current world

1:01:20

instead of what we did.

1:01:23

Interviewer

Did you know that detainees you interrogated

1:01:25

were gonna end up in Guantanamo?

1:01:28

Were you aware of Guantanamo at that time?

1:01:29

-

When we first got there, no.

1:01:33

But it became quite apparent that

1:01:34

places were coming to us because we're the most secluded.

1:01:39

So the other parts in the country were sending us people

1:01:43

and every month or couple of weeks or so,

1:01:47

we're sending people off

1:01:50

and we knew they were going to Guantanamo at the time.

1:01:52

Which I don't know if the public did

1:01:55

or not at that timeframe.

1:01:57

Interviewer

What was your image of Guantanamo,

1:01:58

do you recall back then?

1:02:00

-

If I want to think about it honestly,

1:02:03

I didn't even know we had a base there.

1:02:05

So I'm like figure they got some sectioned off

1:02:07

part of the island where these guys are going.

1:02:09

I had no idea.

1:02:12

I just knew they were going there.

1:02:14

I assumed the facilities were better, but I didn't know.

1:02:15

I thought it was kinda strange to send them that far.

1:02:20

'Cause I'm like, all right, I assume at that point

1:02:24

we have actionable intel

1:02:28

and then the further they're away from their fellow guys,

1:02:31

especially the further they're overseas,

1:02:37

the less actionable any kind of intelligence

1:02:39

comes from them.

1:02:41

I mean, unless they told you,

1:02:43

"Hey, we got this five-year plan

1:02:44

and here's what we're doing."

1:02:46

Then by all means, keep them.

1:02:48

But if they say, "Hey, this is what we have planned,

1:02:50

this is what we did."

1:02:52

I don't know what you're gonna do with them

1:02:55

in three years while they're sitting down there.

1:02:56

I don't understand it.

1:02:59

Try 'em or do something, but don't keep 'em locked up.

1:03:02

Interviewer

I have just a couple more questions.

1:03:07

One is mainly, did you have any fear for your safety

1:03:08

while you were in Bagram?

1:03:13

-

In Bagram, no.

1:03:15

We had occasional rocket attacks and mortars,

1:03:19

but I never feared for my safety there.

1:03:23

Interviewer

And you never feared from the detainees?

1:03:27

-

No, not from the detainees.

1:03:29

-

Not given your size.

And when Obama became president did you think

1:03:32

things were gonna change?

1:03:36

-

One of his big promises was to pull everyone out.

1:03:38

And that's what I wanted for our guys.

1:03:41

A lot of it, like,

1:03:47

if we even go into the Iraq part,

1:03:49

I can tell you sitting down in Kuwait

1:03:53

before they sent us into Iraq,

1:03:56

they used to come and do briefings every week.

1:03:57

They'd have people come talk to you

1:04:00

and everything like that.

1:04:01

And one of them they had was a guy,

1:04:03

who was a veterinarian, I believe.

1:04:06

And he was a old Iraqi national.

1:04:09

And he came to talk to us.

1:04:10

I think he'd become U.S. 'cause he was with the U.S. Army.

1:04:12

But used to live in Iraq, under Saddam.

1:04:15

And we're all sitting there in this room

1:04:18

and he's telling us how horrible things are

1:04:23

and how bad it is and how evil Saddam is.

1:04:25

From like, you've got a room full of interrogators

1:04:29

and people that do equivalent jobs and nobody believed him.

1:04:31

I'm like, what are we doing here?

1:04:39

You're obviously trying to lie to us.

1:04:42

You're trying to get us pumped up for something that-

1:04:43

Interviewer

Why do you say nobody believed him?

1:04:47

Why wouldn't they believe him?

1:04:49

-

It's just a vibe.

1:04:53

You go through that training

1:04:56

and this guy's not coming off as sincere about anything.

1:04:57

It sounds more like a pep rally,

1:05:01

instead of an actual informative,

1:05:04

here's what we're gonna go do.

1:05:07

It felt like, I personally felt

1:05:10

like we were being misled into it.

1:05:12

Like I said, it could just be me.

1:05:15

I feel a lot of other people in my unit felt the same thing.

1:05:19

Interviewer

When did you go to Iraq exactly?

1:05:22

-

That was 2003.

1:05:23

That was when it started.

1:05:25

-

Was it spring?

It started in March or April of 2003.

1:05:26

-

Yeah, it started April, April, 2003, I believe.

1:05:29

Interviewer

Is that when you went?

1:05:33

-

Yeah, we went right in afterwards.

1:05:34

Interviewer

And did you think, at that time they said

1:05:37

that the U.S. was going to strike fast and quick

1:05:40

and it'll be over.

1:05:43

Did you think that?

1:05:44

-

Oh, yeah, I remember watching the original one as a kid,

1:05:46

when we were just fighting them out of Saudi Arabia.

1:05:50

And I was like, we backed that army up

1:05:53

pretty quick that time

1:05:55

and by everything they were showing us,

1:05:56

I was like, well if it follows along the same lines,

1:05:58

this is gonna be, it was gonna be quick and done,

1:06:01

like you said, you know, it'll be real fast.

1:06:04

And I mean, it relatively was at least the race to Baghdad.

1:06:09

And then after that's when, I even like to tell people

1:06:13

when we first went in it wasn't as bad as when we left.

1:06:16

It seems like after, when we first went in

1:06:23

everybody's kinda like, alright, thrown down, running.

1:06:24

And then after about four or five months of being there,

1:06:28

that's when they all start popping up again.

1:06:30

So it's like, all right, the official war part was easy.

1:06:33

Holding is gonna be the pain.

1:06:36

Interviewer

And you were sent in different, what?

1:06:40

You were sent to different cities.

1:06:42

You weren't just in Baghdad, right?

1:06:44

-

Right.

1:06:46

-

And you did interrogation

in each of those cities?

1:06:47

-

Mm hm.

1:06:48

Interviewer

And were you alone or were you always

1:06:49

with a colleague when you did the interrogations?

1:06:50

-

Always with a colleague.

1:06:53

Interviewer

And what's the purpose

1:06:54

of having two people together?

1:06:55

-

A lot of it's just to cover your questioning.

1:06:57

Like, if I'm asking you about something,

1:07:01

I'm asking you about a new car or something,

1:07:06

and I say, "How's the gas mileage?"

1:07:08

And then you start talking about the city mileage

1:07:11

and then I move on, then you know my buddy he'll go,

1:07:13

"Well, hey, what about the highway mileage?

1:07:15

We didn't get the highway mileage on it."

1:07:18

Interviewer

And would you talk to your buddy

1:07:21

before you start the interrogation

1:07:23

to make sure you were on the same path

1:07:25

as what question to ask?

1:07:27

-

Oh yeah, usually we laid out kind of a game plan.

1:07:28

Like, "Hey, this is how I'm gonna start talking to him.

1:07:30

We're gonna try and touch up on this."

1:07:33

Of course, kinda hard when you're dealing with people

1:07:36

to follow a strict plan, but at least you gotta have

1:07:39

that little guideline, that way you're not

1:07:41

playing off of each other or something like that.

1:07:44

Interviewer

Did you do good cop, bad cop ever?

1:07:46

-

I tried it.

1:07:49

I don't make a very good bad cop unless I'm quiet.

1:07:50

Interviewer

You make a good good cop?

1:07:55

-

Yeah, I'm a good good cop.

1:07:56

Interviewer

Well then what about the other guy

1:07:57

being a bad cop, you ever tried that way?

1:07:59

-

We tried, but it looks funny

1:08:01

when the person's smaller than me

1:08:02

and they have to play the bad cop.

1:08:03

Interviewer

So your image was the bad cop

1:08:08

because of your size.

1:08:10

-

Well, honestly I was 20 years old

1:08:12

when I made it to Afghanistan.

1:08:16

And I probably only had to shave like once a week.

1:08:19

So, I wasn't really passing off as the scruffy bad guy

1:08:22

or anything like that.

1:08:29

Interviewer

But it doesn't sound like

1:08:30

you had it in your either.

1:08:31

-

No, no, it's not my personality.

1:08:32

Interviewer

I think I'm pretty much,

1:08:39

unless there's something else Glen, you wanted to tell us

1:08:41

just about how you see your experiences

1:08:44

and how America can benefit from your experience

1:08:48

and your insights?

1:08:53

I know I asked you that once,

1:08:56

but I'll ask you one more time.

1:08:57

If there's anything else you want to add to that, otherwise.

1:08:58

-

I would say definitely like in my scenario,

1:09:00

especially for combat vets and for the ones

1:09:03

that have seen combat, like even if we get kicked out

1:09:07

or something like that, or like in my case,

1:09:12

where I took a plea bargain, got a bad conduct discharge,

1:09:15

you know I've seen combat with the rest of my buddies

1:09:21

in my unit and sometimes you don't always think right.

1:09:24

And that's something that should be addressed.

1:09:29

Like even though we were kicked out,

1:09:31

if it's not supporting full military benefits or whatever,

1:09:33

at least some kind of psychiatric help

1:09:37

or something like that, some kind of forum or medium

1:09:39

or something that can be addressed.

1:09:43

Because I know there's people that are,

1:09:46

even I'd be lying if I said, maybe I didn't dabble in drugs

1:09:47

when I came back from overseas.

1:09:54

And then, how many other soldiers are doing this.

1:09:57

And then instead of getting kicked out for doing assault

1:10:00

and battery, like me, they're getting kicked out

1:10:04

because they failed the drug test.

1:10:06

And they're doing these drugs because they were overseas

1:10:09

and everything's weighing down on 'em.

1:10:12

So even the forgotten part of it like me,

1:10:17

who just kinda gets thrown out

1:10:19

and tossed back out to the side, should be addressed.

1:10:20

I'm sure it's different now than it was then.

1:10:26

I can only hope.

1:10:28

But I can tell you when I got out me and friends,

1:10:30

even had a guy that lived with us,

1:10:36

who he's seen it rough over there.

1:10:37

He wasn't an interrogator.

1:10:40

He basically did like an MP-type job over there.

1:10:41

And he was always out beyond the wire.

1:10:45

And then he goes home to Las Vegas

1:10:48

and I think he was kicked out.

1:10:51

And I'm not sure if he was kicked out or not.

1:10:54

But he went home to Las Vegas, I think he was there

1:10:58

for a couple of weeks before he ODed on heroin.

1:11:00

All due to stress from being overseas,

1:11:04

which he never got help for.

1:11:06

Interviewer

Are you also talking about help

1:11:09

while you're in the military

1:11:10

or only help once you leave the military?

1:11:12

-

It should definitely be both.

1:11:15

People coming back from overseas should be getting

1:11:16

some kind of help.

1:11:18

Interviewer

While they're still in the military?

1:11:19

-

Mm hm.

1:11:20

-

And they're not?

-

When I was in, they weren't.

1:11:23

Interviewer

Did you think you had PTSD when you left?

1:11:25

Did you even think about that?

1:11:27

-

I think when I was still in I didn't think about it much.

1:11:31

There were some instances afterwards,

1:11:35

when I was out and away from everything,

1:11:36

that definitely, even like driving down the road

1:11:39

and all of a sudden, I think I'm looking

1:11:42

at the the end of the street

1:11:45

and it looks like the mountains of Bagram.

1:11:47

Just outta nowhere.

1:11:51

Who knows, I mighta ran a red light while I did it.

1:11:53

But stuff like that.

1:11:55

I mean, fireworks, those were horrible for the longest time.

1:11:57

Like I said, it's been a while,

1:12:04

so kinda getting used to being around it again.

1:12:05

Don't be near me if I'm standing next to the street

1:12:11

when a car backfires.

1:12:14

Interviewer

Really.

1:12:15

-

I might throw you down looking for cover.

1:12:17

-

Really?

1:12:19

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

Did you have nightmares too?

1:12:22

-

All the time.

1:12:24

Interviewer

About your time in Bagram and Iraq?

1:12:26

-

About the time in Bagram especially.

1:12:30

That's the one thing that got me the most is like,

1:12:35

if you could talk to Dilawar right now,

1:12:38

I guarantee you he'd say

1:12:40

I was the only friend he had in that place.

1:12:41

Interviewer

So what's the nightmare there,

1:12:45

that you betrayed him or that you didn't help him?

1:12:47

-

That I didn't do enough for him.

1:12:50

That's my fault.

1:12:52

Interviewer

Did you ever speak to his family?

1:12:57

Could you have spoken to his family?

1:12:59

-

Oh, no, I wouldn't have any way

1:13:00

of knowing how to get ahold of them.

1:13:02

Interviewer

And did you have flashbacks too?

1:13:07

-

Occasionally, I never really had flashbacks that bad,

1:13:11

but definitely nightmares.

1:13:14

Interviewer

And do you see yourself

1:13:17

speaking to Dilawar in that nightmare or is it just-

1:13:17

-

Most of the time, yeah.

1:13:21

Interviewer

Do you see yourself

1:13:26

speaking to other detainees or to other colleagues

1:13:27

in those nightmares, or is it just Dilawar.

1:13:31

-

There's some other colleagues that I feel like

1:13:34

we're to blame that, definitely.

1:13:37

If I saw them here, I wouldn't have things nice

1:13:42

to say to 'em even after this time.

1:13:44

Interviewer

Well, would you wanna just,

1:13:48

you said it Glen, but I don't know if you wanna say it just,

1:13:49

I think people might wanna hear, do you wanna say

1:13:52

that you're kind of like you're sorry you didn't do

1:13:54

better for Dilawar that that's-

1:13:58

-

Oh, that definitely.

1:14:01

'Cause at least even if what I did

1:14:03

and I was still convicted for what I did,

1:14:05

if he was still alive, then I wouldn't feel so bad.

1:14:07

Interviewer

And you'd like to tell him that.

1:14:13

Well, that's a good way to end, I think,

1:14:19

if that's okay with you.

1:14:21

We need 20 seconds of silence, Johnny,

1:14:23

room tone before we close down and then.

1:14:29

Unless you wanna say something else?

1:14:31

-

Not that I can think of.

1:14:34

Okay, okay Johnny.

1:14:36

Johnny

Begin room tone.

1:14:38

End room tone.

1:14:51

Walls, Glendale - Interview master file

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