Souza, Alfred - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Okay good, good morning.

0:06

-

Morning.

0:08

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:09

for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:10

We invite you to speak of your experiences and involvement

0:14

at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:18

We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity

0:21

to tell your story in your own words.

0:23

We're creating an archive of stories

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that people in America and around the world

0:28

will have a better understanding of what you

0:32

and others have experienced and observed.

0:34

Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo.

0:38

And by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:41

We appreciate your willingness to speak with us today.

0:45

Anytime during the interview, you'd like to take a break

0:49

just let us know.

0:51

And if, you're welcome to refuse to answer any questions,

0:53

and if you do say something and you'd like us to remove it,

0:57

we can remove it as well.

1:00

-

Sure.

Interviewer

And I'd like to start

1:02

with just basic information including your name,

1:03

and your hometown and your birth date and age

1:06

and marital status if you can just (speaks faintly)

1:12

-

Okay, sure.

1:13

I was born Alfred Amaro Souza, Jr.

1:14

I go by Pete.

1:17

I grew up in many towns,

1:21

throughout the central valley, California.

1:23

My hometown is Gustine, California.

1:28

What else?

1:31

Interviewer

Your age and birthday.

1:32

-

Oh, March 24th, 1971.

1:34

It makes me 41 years old.

1:38

Interviewer

And--

1:40

-

how that happened, I don't know.

1:41

It just suddenly happened.

1:43

Interviewer

And your marital status?

1:45

-

I'm married, yes.

1:46

Interviewer

And do you have children?

1:48

-

No, no children.

1:49

Interviewer

And you education?

1:50

A little bit about your education.

1:52

-

I went to junior college for a while.

1:56

I worked, I went to Whittier College

2:01

for a couple of years in Southern California.

2:04

And, then I worked for a longer period of time.

2:09

And then I went into the Navy

2:11

and participated in school throughout my Naval career.

2:15

And when I got out, I attended SAC state

2:18

and I completed my bachelor's degree in history.

2:20

Interviewer

And what's your current occupation?

2:24

-

Biomedical equipment service technician

2:27

at the Veterans Administration.

2:30

Interviewer

Well then maybe you could tell us

2:34

a little bit about how you first got involved

2:35

with the military, how that happened.

2:38

-

How I,

2:40

Interviewer

How you joined the military.

2:41

-

How I joined the mili, that's very funny.

2:42

I worked, after I dropped out of college the first time,

2:45

Interviewer

How old were you?

2:52

-

Oh gosh, how old was I?

2:53

25, 24, something like that.

2:55

I got a job in radio working behind the scenes, you know,

3:01

doing volume, during live shows and things like that.

3:07

And it was a political talk, I moved into.

3:12

I went from a Christian radio station.

3:16

I transferred to a different radio station,

3:18

that was all very conservative, political talk.

3:20

I was, part of the morning show there in Modesto.

3:22

And we talked about what's right, what's wrong, what's,

3:29

politics, just current events stuff.

3:36

And I was just, the more we talked,

3:42

the more I became dissatisfied with just being.

3:46

And I was, my guy I worked with, he went to L.A.

3:51

to try his luck with a bigger market.

3:56

And I was just sitting there thinking,

4:02

is this all I'm gonna be the rest of my life.

4:04

I can't, and I, it was at 27 and my friend says,

4:07

he was in the National Guard Army,

4:13

he says, "Well, I don't want you to be in the army,

4:17

but I think you ought to try the air force."

4:20

So I said, "God, the military for me, I don't know."

4:23

I said, but I said, if I'm gonna be serious

4:28

and make a change in my life, why not just do it big,

4:31

may just, maybe that's what's holding me back

4:33

is all the ties.

4:36

So, cut all the ties, start fresh, start new.

4:37

Went to the air force recruiters office in Modesto

4:41

and the airman comes out and he says, "How old are you?"

4:47

I said, "I'm 27," goes, "You're too old," and walked away.

4:51

I was like, "What?

4:55

I thought you guys were hurting for people, come on now."

4:57

So we walked over next door to the Navy office

5:00

and they said, "Yeah, no problem.

5:05

What do you wanna do?"

5:07

And I thought, "Okay, well, I don't wanna kill anybody."

5:09

So, and this is way super long answer for what you want.

5:14

You're gonna edit this?

5:19

Interviewer

No, but it's the,

5:20

it's really interesting actually.

5:21

-

Okay.

5:22

My dad had had a heart, open heart surgery

5:24

at like 42 years old.

5:29

And I got to see the inside work into the hospital.

5:33

And I thought, "Well, you know what,

5:36

if one day maybe I could save my dad's life,

5:38

if you know, I knew about medicine."

5:40

It was really kind of a dopey thought.

5:43

But it was truly what I was thinking at the time.

5:45

I wanna go into medicine.

5:48

I wanna do something in medicine.

5:49

And I know you're not gonna kill anybody in medicine,

5:50

if you, well, you hope you're not

5:53

gonna kill anybody in medicine.

5:55

So I did and got that written into my contract

5:58

and became a hospital corpsman.

6:02

Interviewer

What year was this?

6:05

-

1999.

6:07

I spent the turnover of year 2000 in bootcamp.

6:10

Interviewer

Where?

6:14

-

Great Lakes, Illinois.

6:15

Interviewer

And what does it mean

6:16

to be a hospital corpsman?

6:18

-

Oh, that's a great question.

6:19

There, 'cause I spent also, you don't just go to bootcamp

6:22

'cause after bootcamp, you go to what's called your A School

6:27

which is where you learn to become a hospital corpsman.

6:29

And not only do you learn all the names of the body parts

6:32

and about how to first aid and all that,

6:36

you learn about the history of the hospital corps.

6:38

And it is, they're very proud of the fact

6:42

that they're the most decorated corps.

6:45

The most, yeah, Congressional Medal of Honor winners.

6:49

And we have each one of their pictures up

6:56

in every single hospital, every Naval hospital,

6:59

you will go to the quarterdeck and you will see a picture

7:02

of each, medal of honor winner.

7:04

And there's such a pride of what we do.

7:10

I don't know, many people don't realize

7:16

that we're with the Marines.

7:18

We're not just on ships or forward deployed hospitals,

7:20

as well as just regular hospitals taking care of,

7:25

not only active duty service members

7:28

but also their families.

7:31

So there's, you could learn how to bring babies

7:34

into the world.

7:37

You can learn all kinds of things being a hospital corpsman.

7:38

My first duty station was Japan.

7:43

And so I went to Yokosuka Japan for two and a half years.

7:47

But all I did was medical records.

7:51

And I said, "This is not, this is not what I came,

7:52

this is not what I was trying to do."

7:55

And a friend of mine says,

7:59

"I'm going to medical repair school."

8:00

I said, "What's that?

8:06

What's medical repair?

8:07

What is that?"

8:08

'Cause corpsman do everything in the hospital,

8:09

not just the medical work, they take care of all the admin.

8:12

They do, even repair the medical equipment

8:16

and there's a school for that.

8:19

So I went to that school.

8:21

I got, I had to get letters of recommendation

8:22

and do all these things, but I did it.

8:25

And it was one of the hardest schools I ever went to,

8:27

as a year of training at Wichita Falls,

8:30

Air Force Base in Texas.

8:35

And I graduated and went on to San Diego,

8:39

which was my first duty station.

8:43

And from there I got deployed to Guantanamo.

8:45

Interviewer

What exactly do you repair?

8:49

Just briefly just--

8:51

-

Everything, I've been trained, to x-ray machines,

8:52

blood pressure machines, the IV fluid administration sets,

8:58

ultrasound equipment.

9:05

Anything that plugs into the wall in a hospital,

9:07

I've at least looked at the inside of.

9:09

Interviewer

So how did it happen

9:13

that you went to Guantanamo.

9:15

How did that happen?

9:17

-

Also funny story.

9:18

I was there, I was at my new duty station

9:20

new to the whole business of being in this job field.

9:23

And it came, our, don't ask me how the government

9:30

figures things out but somehow it was

9:33

San Diego Naval Hospital's turn to provide

9:35

a medical equipment repair for Guantanamo Bay.

9:39

And you have to have a security clearance.

9:46

And my shop is all, they were either married with kids

9:50

which they didn't wanna send,

9:58

or they were married, which they could send.

10:01

But in those cases they were all foreign Filipino sailors.

10:04

And if you're not born an American citizen,

10:11

you can't get the security clearance

10:13

needed to go to the base.

10:17

And I was the only guy that, so I was sitting there

10:19

like what, five, six months new to the job

10:23

and they said, "You're going on deployment."

10:28

And I was like, "Okay, that's kinda cool.

10:30

That's kinda scary, but yeah, okay I'll go."

10:32

Interviewer

And what was your thinking

10:36

about Guantanamo at that point?

10:37

What did you know about it and what,

10:39

-

Just, from what was on,

10:41

Interviewer

What year is this by the way?

10:44

-

Oh, this is, 2003, so 2004, the day after the 4th of July,

10:45

as I recall that I've left to go.

10:54

Interviewer

And before you left, what were you thinking?

10:58

What impressions did you have of Guantanamo?

10:59

Expectations.

11:02

-

Oh, that they were terrorists, very bad people.

11:03

And then that fascinated me, to be honest.

11:11

I was really curious as to what evil people look like,

11:14

'cause, I'd had heard just little rumors about how bad,

11:21

how bad it could be there.

11:27

You know, get spit on that sort of thing.

11:30

Interviewer

Were you frightened?

11:34

Were you afraid?

11:34

-

I was, a little bit.

Interviewer

What were you afraid of?

11:39

What were the fears for?

11:40

-

Not, okay let me, 'cause I have to frame my mind back

11:43

before the experience 'cause the fear was different.

11:47

I think there was much less fear,

11:51

but there was more curiosity.

11:54

I think the fear, I'm naturally kind of a nervous person.

12:01

So just uprooting my whole existence

12:06

and going for six months on this trip was,

12:09

nerve-wracking to me.

12:14

So, I think there's probably more that

12:18

than I was afraid of them 'cause I didn't know

12:20

the real situation, I just knew that I would be working

12:22

in the hospital around these people who were there.

12:26

And so, you know, I had to get to the point,

12:32

'cause it entails like, I have to get out of my apartment.

12:40

I have this dog that I now had to figure out

12:43

what I was gonna do with this dog.

12:45

So that, that's more of the anxiety kind of things

12:47

that I was dealing with at the time.

12:51

As far as the detainees, when it was more curiosity

12:53

I was really curious, like, just repeat myself,

12:57

I was really curious to see what evil people look like.

13:01

'Cause that's what everybody talked about all the time,

13:04

news and everything is about,

13:07

"This is Guantanamo, we hold these people here

13:09

who are terrorists, they kill people.

13:12

They've tried to kill service men

13:14

and women overseas and things like that."

13:16

Interviewer

And when you arrived in Guantanamo,

13:20

what were your initial impressions?

13:23

-

First off on the trip there, you,

13:29

I'm traveling by myself,

13:37

with people who are going to the base

13:40

who don't necessarily work at the prison camp.

13:42

They work on the base surrounding, at the Naval base.

13:46

And they're very separate, they're very distinct,

13:50

even though one exists within the other.

13:52

And they'd be interested in me for a few minutes

13:57

and then they say, "Okay, so where are you

14:00

gonna be working?"

14:02

I said the detainment facility.

14:03

And then it'd be just kind of like cold.

14:05

It'd be just like, oh.

14:07

And no, they walk off and find somebody else

14:08

to talk to, kind of thing.

14:12

So you really kind of feel, that's your first thing,

14:13

"What the hell's going on over there that is,

14:17

get people like this?

14:21

Treat you like this?"

14:23

And, so then when we got there,

14:26

I suddenly realized what the deal is.

14:30

I was separated out, put in a big hanger

14:33

with other people who had arrived.

14:38

There was a ton of security about,

14:43

well first, you had to wait

14:51

until all the other people were gone.

14:53

The people who were, lived there at the hospital

14:56

or on the base there, the family members and whatever.

14:59

And then you were left

15:03

and you had to go through the security and getting a badge,

15:03

and then you're told what you can do, what you can't do.

15:07

And that's where you start hearing,

15:10

"This is very serious.

15:12

You need to take this very seriously.

15:14

These people will kill you as much as look at you,

15:17

if you give them the opportunity.

15:20

These are the worst of the worst."

15:22

And, so that happened, but one of the guys

15:27

from corps school happened to be stationed there

15:31

as a regular, corpsman at the regular hospital.

15:34

And he knew I was coming.

15:38

And so he was there to meet me

15:40

and he was waiting there outside.

15:42

And so I had, I was lucky enough

15:46

that even though I was getting this indoctrination about,

15:49

"You have to be super serious

15:52

and the danger of the situation,"

15:54

I had the normal side of the military life,

16:00

right there to counterbalance it.

16:04

As soon as I walked out, he was like, "Ah," you know,

16:06

just a lighter atmosphere.

16:10

And thank God for that, I gotta say,

16:12

'cause I think that's kinda what kept me.

16:15

I had my, the whole time I had my foot half in and half out

16:18

of that whole situation of Guantanamo.

16:23

Interviewer

Can we just clarify,

16:27

for people who are watching.

16:28

-

Sure.

Interviewer

What you're saying is,

16:30

there's two different hospitals that,

16:31

-

Yes, there is the detainment facility,

16:33

which at the time I was there was run by the army.

16:36

And then there is the Naval base, which is run by the Navy.

16:40

Interviewer

And there's a hospital on the base

16:44

that's separate, from the detainment?

16:46

-

Correct, yes.

16:46

Interviewer

And the men who came up to you

16:48

was from the hospital on the base?

16:49

-

Yes, correct.

16:51

Interviewer

And you were going

16:52

to the detainment facility?

16:53

-

Yes, we knew each other from our school year, time.

16:54

Interviewer

And why did the people walk away from you

16:57

while you were traveling to Guantanamo?

16:58

-

Well for, I think, for one, because they keep you

17:00

so completely separate from each other.

17:04

A time I was there, there are very few people

17:08

that would mix.

17:10

There was the camp people.

17:12

And then there was the base people.

17:15

Interviewer

Why is that?

17:17

-

I think each person would have a different

17:26

answer for that.

17:30

But I think that there is a lot of,

17:32

you're told when you arrive,

17:35

that you can go out to the little bar,

17:38

there's local little bar things out there, just like one,

17:44

but you need to be careful because you can't talk to anybody

17:48

about what you see, what you do or anything.

17:51

And people will pre, we are told that reporters

17:54

will try and get you drunk to talk.

18:00

They would tell us that people you don't even know

18:04

are reporters, will just start talking to you

18:06

and you know, to not talk to anybody.

18:08

So you're paranoid.

18:13

You arrive, you're told you're gonna be,

18:14

on the one hand, you're gonna be dealing with,

18:16

people who could kill you.

18:18

And on the other hand, you can't trust anybody,

18:19

because they're gonna try and get information out of you.

18:24

So you're secluded into your own little group,

18:26

your little organization, of all the people

18:29

that just work at the detainment facility.

18:33

Interviewer

Well, did you get any training,

18:37

before we go into the expansive of Guantanamo,

18:40

did you get any training, particularly to the kind of work

18:43

you were then gonna do in Guantanamo?

18:46

-

Well, I had already, as far as my work in Guantanamo,

18:49

I had been trained at Wichita Falls for equipment repair.

18:53

And my hands on experience was about seven months worth

18:58

before I went.

19:03

So I was extremely green as far as what,

19:04

how did all the extra parts of what,

19:08

when you know, can know how to fix something

19:12

but then there's all the other parts, paperwork,

19:15

how to deal with other people, where you stand on the foot,

19:18

on the on the chain of command sort of thing

19:22

in certain situations, that's all really new to me.

19:24

Interviewer

And no one really gave you,

19:28

-

I was the only one who did my job

19:31

and everybody immediately looked to me

19:35

to know what I was doing and to do my job.

19:36

Interviewer

Could you tell us a typical day of your job,

19:40

so we'd get a sense on what exactly your job entail.

19:44

-

Well, it's a small, first of all it's a small,

19:48

I had some clinics outside to take care of,

19:54

those are the clinics that took care of the soldiers

19:58

who worked on at the detention facility.

20:00

I had the facility inside and a couple others inside.

20:03

And so it's not big.

20:10

I spent a lot of time trying to keep myself busy.

20:12

So I would go over the list of what equipment

20:15

was due to be just checked, used to make sure

20:20

it's working properly, if it's ever required, ever needed.

20:22

And when I was done with that, I have my own little shop.

20:26

I ask around, find out if anybody has any other concerns

20:32

that they need taken care of.

20:35

I mean, I did mundane things like looking after ice machines

20:37

and repainting grills and things like that.

20:41

Just stuff that in my normal job, I wouldn't be asked

20:45

to do at all, but just looking for things to keep busy.

20:48

And when I was done with that, the only other people

20:52

at the main hospital or the biomed team over there,

20:55

and I would go work with them.

21:01

And that way I would still get sort of hunted

21:03

on the job training experience,

21:06

even though I was in charge of my own thing.

21:09

But they were there to back me up if I needed it.

21:11

And if, you know, I needed any help with anything.

21:14

So, that was great, that was a real lifesaver.

21:18

Interviewer

So when you, did you have interactions

21:22

with detainees or what exactly did you--

21:26

-

Detainees, as far as interactions,

21:30

first of all, you're not, you're told not to speak.

21:34

You are not to speak to any detainee.

21:36

You,

21:39

Interviewer

Who told you that?

21:40

-

That's at the in briefing.

21:41

Interviewer

When you landed?

21:44

-

Yeah, yeah, you're not to speak to any detainee.

21:44

None of the detainees have names.

21:49

They are all identified by a number.

21:52

Interviewer

How warned you to speak the,

21:57

did they explain that or they just directed it.

21:58

-

No, they just, they just tell you, that's it.

22:00

That's the way it is.

22:02

So I really didn't know, at the time I didn't understand

22:03

what was going on or why it was happening.

22:07

It's just, "Okay, that's the rule here.

22:09

That's what I'll do, okay."

22:11

And, so I arrive, we arrive at the,

22:15

you arrive at the facility, you're checked.

22:18

And we're talking about the inside facility.

22:21

We're not talking about the base.

22:24

We're talking about the detention facility.

22:26

You arrive at the detention facility, they have a gate,

22:28

you go in and you all sit inside this gate, a cage.

22:29

They check your stuff, they might frisk you.

22:33

They go through whatever bag you bring.

22:37

You're not supposed to bring any bags,

22:39

but I was a special case 'cause I had a tool case

22:42

I had to carry in and out.

22:44

So, and they check everybody's badges

22:49

and then they let you all through.

22:51

And then you, to walk to the base

22:53

or to the hospital structure within the compound,

22:56

you have to pass by the low security detainees.

22:59

And so you see these guys in the orange jumpsuits

23:07

walking around, they'll often just kind of hang.

23:11

They liked, their board staff, so they're sitting there

23:17

on the chain link fence, just looking through,

23:20

seeing if anything new happens.

23:22

Watching people, that's like their only entertainment.

23:25

Or sometimes, I think they had a little pickup game

23:29

of soccer going on.

23:32

So you walk by them and they may talk, they,

23:34

cause your between, now you're walking down

23:38

a fairly wide corridor of chain link fences.

23:40

One to the outside, one to their place where they're held

23:43

and you have to walk around.

23:48

So during that time, they try to talk to you,

23:51

you can't talk to them.

23:53

There's guard towers too, that are on the perimeter.

23:55

And then once I get inside,

24:00

they're usually detainees in the cots.

24:02

They don't have regular beds just cots for after surgery,

24:06

they're healing or whatever.

24:10

And they're usually right outside the door where I,

24:12

where my shop is.

24:17

So I go by them, you know just,

24:19

not allowed to talk to them but, you know,

24:23

'cause it's natural, it's just natural.

24:26

I feel like I have to (mumbles) have to say hi.

24:27

And then I go in and then I just try to stay out of sight

24:33

as much as possible the rest of the time.

24:37

I'm always conscious of their eyes when I walk by.

24:40

Interviewer

What were you thinking

24:43

the first time you walked by?

24:44

Did you have an impression?

24:45

-

I wanted to look and stare.

24:46

That was my first thing I wanted to do.

24:48

But you know, I'm afraid to.

24:51

I'm afraid to pay any attention to,

24:55

I don't know who's watching.

24:57

I don't know if there are cameras in the room.

24:59

I don't know if the hospital's even bugged for sound.

25:02

Which it should have been, 'cause they chatter away like,

25:06

you know, all the time, while they're laying there.

25:10

Interviewer

Well, did you have an impression of them

25:16

as you or by that first time?

25:18

-

They seemed, okay I'm here to tell the truth

25:25

and not be sensitive about this.

25:29

But they smelled, the place smelled bad.

25:31

Not in a really dirty, dirty way, like stench,

25:36

but just like a smell of people who haven't,

25:42

just body odor kind of smell.

25:49

And I'm like, "Oh, these guys need to take a bath.

25:52

What's up with this?"

25:55

You know (murmurs)

25:56

Interviewer

Do you know, if they had showers.

25:58

-

They do, actually, but the procedure,

26:00

well this is just hospital, in the hospital compounds,

26:05

all I can talk to.

26:09

The procedure for, cause they were actually

26:11

cuffed to the cot and they can't move.

26:13

Most of them, are shackled in some way.

26:18

So they have to be unshackled, moved to, even to just pee.

26:22

Move to the bathroom where they can,

26:30

and they have to be watched

26:33

and then chained and then unchained,

26:34

and then walked back and then chained again.

26:37

So, yes they did.

26:41

And every morning they had a shower.

26:44

Interviewer

And Could you observe that?

26:48

So, you,

26:50

-

No, it was not, it was a small room.

26:51

I mean, literally there was toilet, a sink, a shower,

26:54

in a small box room.

26:59

And, I could walk by it and look in if I wanted to,

27:02

because the door's open and they have a guard,

27:06

they're watching while the guy takes his shower.

27:11

But no, so it wasn't open to everybody to see

27:15

and the guard's blocking the door.

27:18

So there's no, no privacy

27:20

but it wasn't like I could observe everything there.

27:25

Interviewer

Well, did you're impressions change

27:29

or begin to change as you were--

27:31

-

Oh yeah.

27:33

Interviewer

How so?

27:34

-

In, a couple of different ways and,

27:37

explain to you that I have called Guantanamo is like,

27:44

and it's opposite for everything that's so beautiful

27:51

or wonderful about Guantanamo,

27:56

there's an equally horrible and it just never stops.

27:58

That dichotomy never seems to stop and,

28:01

I found that as I was exposed more to my coworkers,

28:07

that my view of them,

28:14

you know I would be more fearful of them.

28:20

I mean, you hear stories of, you know semen and feces

28:22

mixed in cups thrown at people and stuff.

28:29

And so you're like, "You people are doing this?

28:33

How could you do that to people?"

28:36

And you hear stories about having to physically

28:41

remove somebody from a cell

28:48

because they fight back really hard.

28:51

And then on the other hand, you see just the guys

28:56

laying in the hospital and I kind of feel sorry for them.

28:59

And the way that the guards are totally ambivalent

29:04

to their care or,

29:08

you know, they just don't, they're like,

29:16

"They're like everybody else."

29:18

And don't care if they live or die.

29:19

The attitude.

29:22

And so you get those, I was constantly

29:27

getting those two things.

29:30

"I hate them, I think you're evil scum.

29:32

You're a human being, I feel sorry for you.

29:37

I really wish this wasn't happening to you."

29:39

And, then I start to hear stories about,

29:43

"Well, you know there's a doctor, that's one of the,"

29:50

how's a doctor or a school teacher,

29:55

one guy, yeah, he's a school teacher,

30:00

someone was talking to him,

30:02

found out he was a school teacher.

30:03

That just doesn't seem like a terrorist.

30:06

Of course there's like also this supposedly some MMA fighter

30:12

kind of guy who was big and they were all scared of him.

30:15

So, I can't say it ever changed completely

30:22

one way or the other, 'cause I was constantly being dragged

30:26

across the spectrum of hating and pity kinda--

30:28

Interviewer

IS this coming from your coworkers?

30:35

Is that what you're--

30:37

-

A lot of it, yeah, a lot of it.

30:37

The stories I hear, whether their dad was a guy

30:42

who was a teacher or whatever,

30:44

or that they got stuff thrown at them or whatever.

30:46

Interviewer

Who are these coworkers,

30:51

if you were the only med tech?

30:51

-

I was, no, med tech is not a term we use.

30:53

You're a hospital corpsman, we're all hospital corpsman.

30:58

I was a hospital corpsman with,

31:02

who was a biomed repair technician.

31:05

Some are psychiatric technician.

31:09

Some are just general corpsman, general duty corpsman.

31:12

Some are pharmacy technicians.

31:16

Some are respiratory therapy technicians.

31:18

Some are x-ray technicians, but we're all hospital corpsman.

31:20

And we all lived and worked together in the same space.

31:24

And so we hear a little bit of story from here.

31:29

A little bit of story from there

31:32

and very little about the secret facilities.

31:34

Just every once in a while, a little bit.

31:40

Interviewer

What do you mean by secret facilities?

31:41

Well, there's another building on,

31:44

not within that compound, but nearby the compound.

31:47

That was for high-value detainees.

31:51

And I visited it one time,

31:55

and it was like a full, what you would picture

32:01

a real prison to be like.

32:05

You know, cinder block walls,

32:07

very high tech central monitoring stations,

32:10

that sort of thing.

32:14

Interviewer

This is the camp you visited, this building,

32:15

you visited the clinic there, you visited the actual,

32:17

-

The inside infirmary, to do my work.

32:20

Interviewer

And, this is in 2004.

32:24

-

Yes,

32:28

Interviewer

'Cause that--

-

In 2000, I always have to, this timelines.

32:29

2003, I graduated.

32:34

So it had to have been 2004, yes.

32:37

Interviewer

So the high value detainees

32:40

coined to President Bush came in 2006.

32:43

So were there, do you have any sense

32:46

on who these high value detainees--

32:50

-

I had no clue, absolutely no,

32:51

Interviewer

How do you know there were high value

32:52

detainees in there?

32:54

-

Well for one the, no, just the difference

32:55

in the amount of security.

33:00

You had to be specially, specially,

33:02

you had to be specially cleared to work in the compound.

33:04

You had to be specially, specially cleared

33:07

to go to this building or even know that it was there.

33:09

And I didn't even fall into that specially, specially

33:13

category, but because of my job

33:16

and what needed to be done there, I had to go.

33:19

Interviewer

And did you see detainees there?

33:23

-

I did not see any detainees in there.

33:25

They were, the doors were solid, not see-through,

33:27

they had windows but.

33:30

Interviewer

Did you know people there, were being held?

33:33

-

Well, I had to assume so.

33:34

Interviewer

You assume so.

33:36

-

And people, people talk.

33:37

I mean, I knew there were people there

33:39

and I knew they had to be something special

33:41

for that sort of facility.

33:43

Interviewer

There's something called Camp Seven.

33:46

Do you know if this was Camp Seven?

33:48

Had you heard the term?

33:50

-

I have heard of the term Camp Seven.

33:53

I don't know if this facility was it, but probably.

33:55

Interviewer

And why did you only go there once?

34:00

-

Because a PM schedule, most medical equipment

34:03

needs to be inspected once a year or twice a year.

34:08

And these can do, these particular things

34:12

on my list of equipment that the hospital owned

34:16

and maintained we're due for that six month PM,

34:18

and that's where I had to go to get it.

34:24

Interviewer

Was the equipment similar,

34:26

even though was, it was a more,

34:27

-

It very low key and very small infirmary, not a big deal.

34:30

It's just live saving, you know, AED.

34:35

Interviewer

But you saw no detainees.

34:39

-

Saw no detainees.

34:41

Interviewer

And cots, did you see cots there.

34:42

-

No, nothing, nothing.

34:43

I mean, it was clean, it was,

34:44

there was nothing even on the ground,

34:53

it was just completely new, clean and everybody put away.

34:54

Interviewer

Well could you make an observation,

35:00

maybe nobody was there at that point

35:03

in that it was just being prepared, if it was that clean.

35:05

-

No, why would they staff it so heavily?

35:10

Interviewer

Oh, it was staffed fully?

35:13

-

Yeah, yeah.

35:16

There's guards out in the front, guards in the thing.

35:17

And you're, I may have heard people talk about it or not,

35:25

at this point in my life, I can't remember.

35:29

That was quite a while ago

35:32

to make reference to certain particulars.

35:34

Interviewer

What is your sense of your coworkers?

35:39

Did they have, if they were hospital corpsman

35:41

and they'd, like you, they have a sense that,

35:45

the way you describe yourself

35:48

and I think there's probably some truth

35:49

that adds some sensitivity to these men being human beings.

35:50

But were they also mixed

35:54

between both sides of what you were describing?

35:55

-

If they're, okay.

36:00

You know there's difference between officers

36:03

and enlisted right?

36:05

Okay.

36:07

The only time I ever got, I was actually shocked.

36:09

We were getting ready to leave and as a group,

36:13

you do group formations.

36:15

And as we're leaving, the new people are standing there and,

36:16

Interviewer

Leaving the base.

36:20

-

Leaving, getting, our turn was up.

36:21

And, it was giving us a chance to say,

36:27

"How did you survive this deployment?

36:32

Do you have any advice for anybody?"

36:35

And one of the officers said, "Be true to yourself

36:37

and don't let this place warp you."

36:41

And I stared, I turned and I looked

36:45

because that was the first time I'd ever heard

36:48

anybody say what was on my mind.

36:50

So yes, there are people thinking that, but you know what?

36:54

I didn't hear it till the end.

36:58

So I couldn't tell you, if they were thinking that

37:01

at the time or not, somebody was.

37:04

Interviewer

What kind of conversations

37:06

did you have there?

37:07

-

There was a lot of drinking going on, and at night

37:08

and we had barbecues and we'd drink.

37:15

And if we talked about work, it was always negative.

37:17

It was always about, "This guy spit on me,"

37:21

or, you know I, "They want their insure.

37:24

I'm not gonna give them their insure."

37:29

They want their chocolate ensured, it's the drink.

37:31

That was like their milkshake, their treat.

37:35

They love to get the insure,

37:38

but when they start playing the game too much,

37:39

they take it away.

37:43

Interviewer

Who is they?

37:45

Who are you talking about as getting the insure?

37:46

-

The corpsman.

37:48

Interviewer

The Corpsman.

37:49

-

Yeah.

37:50

Interviewer

They have the option they can,

37:51

they have a right to give the insure?

37:52

-

You'd have to talk to somebody who is doing that job.

37:55

I am not sure what their regulations were given.

37:58

But, you have to understand,

38:04

these people who have been there detained

38:08

have been there for so long, they know the procedures

38:13

and the rules better than anybody.

38:16

And the corpsman don't.

38:19

So they can play the games with the corpsman until,

38:20

maybe the corpsman gets wise to it or something and say,

38:24

"Oh, I see what's," you know.

38:26

But they really do have the advantage over people

38:28

in certain respects because they know

38:32

the procedures so well.

38:35

Interviewer

And why was there so much drinking?

38:37

-

In Cuba, it is a fascinating thing.

38:43

And this again, another dichotomy,

38:47

in that it's this Caribbean nation,

38:50

but it is a complete desert.

38:53

It is like a desert on that side of the island.

38:55

It's all rock and coral, desolate.

38:57

And, there wasn't a whole lot to do.

39:02

We tried to do a pickup football game, just relieve tension,

39:07

and it was supposed to be touch football.

39:11

I'm not sure you've played much touch football

39:14

when you're younger,

39:16

but it always turns into touch, push football.

39:17

And when you go scraping across a coral island,

39:20

that's really painful.

39:25

So that didn't last long.

39:27

So there not a lot of physical outlets for anybody,

39:29

or really, unless you're gonna read a book and then you can,

39:34

that's all you're gonna do is read a book.

39:38

So we had barbecues and we drank, a lot.

39:41

And during those times we talked

39:45

and I swear a lot of those stories are told a lot of the,

39:49

this happened, that happened kind of thing.

39:54

And you just kind of absorb the overall feeling

39:57

that people are giving out, which was,

40:02

they're not having fun, it's hard, their,

40:06

at times it almost seemed like,

40:14

you could almost see that some people

40:20

are developing relations.

40:22

"Oh, do you know this guy?"

40:23

"Yeah, yeah, that guy, he's funny."

40:24

Or they talk about little characteristics of the detainees,

40:27

about just different things like that.

40:31

Interviewer

So, what was your mood

40:36

during these six months?

40:38

I assume it changed over time or?

40:39

-

Like I said, I knew to, the people to,

40:41

the people I worked with at the main hospital,

40:46

the biomed repair people who I would go to, to help out

40:49

and kinda learn more when I was done

40:53

with my work at the base, really looked after me.

40:55

And my friend that I knew from school looked,

41:00

they'd invite me to their homes or their family.

41:02

I was around kids, so I was able to get away from that,

41:05

that group feeling of, "Our life is so hard,"

41:10

and all the drinking and everything.

41:16

"And you know, "The detainees are doing this to us

41:20

and that to us," and I got to be around children

41:23

who are happy and laughing and playing with their parents.

41:27

And it would really help center my thinking.

41:30

So, like I said, I got dragged back and forth across

41:41

that feeling of hating them and having pity for them.

41:46

Interviewer

What there women working?

41:51

Were there women working at the (speaks faintly)

41:53

-

It's okay.

41:56

Interviewer

Were the women working

41:57

at the hospital corpsman with you?

41:58

-

Oh yes.

42:00

Interviewer

And were they,

42:01

did they have a different sense of sensitivity?

42:02

-

To the, not that I could tell.

42:06

They didn't talk as much.

42:12

Aint that weird.

42:15

The guys talked about their feelings and the girls didn't.

42:17

How'd that happen?

42:20

But yeah, they,

42:23

Interviewer

But did they hang out with the men

42:24

or the guys at night?

42:26

-

Oh yeah.

42:28

Interviewer

They did, but they didn't talk.

42:29

Do you think they talked among themselves

42:31

and you just didn't hear it?

42:32

-

It's quite possible.

The minds of women are a mystery so, leave it at that.

42:37

Interviewer

But you, so, when you said the guys,

42:41

most, were they drinking with you too?

42:44

Were they, the women?

42:46

-

Oh yeah, yeah, usually.

Interviewer

And, did you ever get to talk to a detainee?

42:51

You said you weren't allowed to at the beginning,

42:55

did it ever happen that you did?

42:56

-

Nothing in depth.

43:01

I had once a socket board that needed to be replaced.

43:04

And so I had to take it to the main hospital

43:09

to do the research 'cause I couldn't even

43:11

get on the internet to do research of any sort,

43:13

which is really valuable in my work.

43:18

So as I'm taking it out, walking again by the,

43:22

the low security area and that guy says,

43:29

"What is that?

43:35

What are you carrying?"

43:36

And I said, "It's a circuit board."

43:39

He says, "A what?"

43:42

I said, "It's a circuit board," and I hold it up,

43:43

and I hear from the tower, "Don't talk to the detainees."

43:44

I'm like, "Oh, okay, okay, sorry."

43:48

So that was like one of my conversations, right.

43:52

And then the other time was in the hospital,

43:56

corpsman, corpsman, that's you know, what they say

44:02

to get our attention.

44:05

And, the guy's trying to explain something to me

44:08

and I don't understand what he's saying other than he needs,

44:11

I think he needs to go to the bathroom.

44:17

And, a guy down at the other end sits up

44:20

and he starts trying to translate for the guy.

44:25

He says, "He needs to go to the bathroom.

44:27

The doctor said he has to go to the bathroom

44:28

whenever he needs to, 'cause he's had some surgery."

44:30

And I'm like, "Well, I don't understand

44:34

what you're saying sir, but if you need to talk to a doctor

44:36

they'll be coming around at such and such time."

44:42

And he's saying, "Well the guard won't let him

44:44

go to the bathroom."

44:46

I said, "Well."

44:46

And then the guard comes over and he started,

44:48

"Hey why, don't be talking to the detainee.

44:50

Don't be talking to the detainee."

44:52

I said, "He needs something."

44:53

He goes, "Well, that's not your job."

44:58

Well, so we kind of got into a little argument right there

45:00

in front of him and I, but I was trying to talk to him.

45:05

And I guess that's the point I'm trying to make is that,

45:08

I'm trying to talk to him, communicate with him,

45:11

but they don't, most of them don't speak English.

45:12

And maybe there might be one guy who speaks some English,

45:15

who do a little bit of translation.

45:17

But, whenever I start, anytime I started talking

45:22

to any of these guys, there was always somebody soon

45:26

to come by to stop that from happening.

45:29

Interviewer

What was the resolution of the incident

45:31

you're just describing right now?

45:33

-

I told, I asked him to step inside my shop,

45:38

where we could discuss it further.

45:40

Interviewer

The guard?

45:43

-

The guard, without being in front of the detainees,

45:44

'cause I had kind of a weird feeling about having a discord

45:46

in front of the enemy.

45:52

And he, we just went at it and he said,

45:56

"What happens here is none of your business."

46:01

I said, "I am a hospital corpsman first."

46:03

And he says, "That's not your job."

46:07

And I said, "Well, yes it is."

46:10

'Cause he, they don't understand that this is my,

46:11

repairing equipment is not my primary existence.

46:14

At first I'm a hospital corpsman,

46:17

second is my advanced school

46:18

where I learned to repair equipment.

46:19

I'll always be a hospital corpsman.

46:21

And I have taken an oath to, render aid to patients

46:24

and to take that responsibility seriously.

46:33

And I told him, he goes,

46:36

"Well I'm gonna bring the block Sergeant in."

46:39

I said, "Would you do that, that's fine."

46:41

And, so the block sergeant came in.

46:44

He berated us for being two E-5s that couldn't figure,

46:45

couldn't work out our circumstances.

46:50

And that was the end of it.

46:52

But you know, I don't know what happened with that detainee

46:54

whether they eventually took him to the bathroom

46:59

or they gave him a cup to pee in or what the deal was.

47:01

But yeah, that was it.

47:05

Interviewer

Well, two questions came up.

47:08

First going back to the first incident

47:11

when that guard tower told you not to talk to detainee,

47:13

were you talking loud enough that the guard in the tower

47:17

could hear you or do you think it was about,

47:20

-

Oh no, I was just talking loud.

47:23

Interviewer

Loud.

47:25

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

And secondly do you,

47:26

it sounds to me like you, had said the humanity,

47:28

that even if you thought,

47:31

did you still think they were evil?

47:32

Did you still think they were--

47:34

-

No, that, you know,

47:35

evil is not, is not something you can see?

47:41

I mean, and I don't know why it didn't occur to me before.

47:48

I mean, I was old enough to probably have known that

47:52

but I don't know.

47:54

I'm naive, I guess in some ways.

47:56

And it's still to this day, I mean isn't that the way it is,

47:59

evil isn't something you see.

48:02

If it was then, it'd be much harder for evil

48:05

to be in the world.

48:07

So no, I started to think to myself after a while,

48:11

"I'm not sure everything that they're telling me here

48:17

is really what's, the truth.

48:21

But, I didn't really question too much

48:25

until I got back to the states.

48:30

And I started hearing things in news media in the states

48:33

where I was like, "Wow, that really is different

48:37

than what I was thinking."

48:41

Like, I said that and now I don't,

48:44

the instance I had in my mind has just gone out of my mind.

48:48

But yeah, there were several instances

48:53

when I came back to the states where I realized

48:55

that things were probably not, oh, that's what it was.

48:58

I heard after the fact that some of those detainees

49:03

were turned in for money, by, other people in Afghanistan.

49:08

I was like, well, there's no, there's no legal,

49:16

not precedent, there's no way you can tell

49:24

if they're telling the truth basically

49:28

is what I'm getting at.

49:30

That's no way to be picking and choosing

49:32

who you're taking as a prisoner.

49:35

And plus I've seen how the government works.

49:39

I know how inefficient and bureaucratic and BS it can be.

49:42

I wouldn't trust any list that the government came up with

49:46

to say, "Okay, this name's on this list.

49:49

So he's a high value target."

49:51

I wouldn't trust that.

49:54

Interviewer

Well, when you started having those thoughts

49:57

did you articulate those to any of the other corpsman.

49:59

-

These thoughts I'm talking about right now

50:03

came after the fact.

50:05

Interviewer

But you said while you were there

50:07

you were beginning to reflect about what--

50:08

-

Oh, right.

50:11

No, no, because it wasn't, their mindset was not in a,

50:13

they weren't in a place to hear that.

50:23

That was not something,

50:26

everybody was pretty gung ho America and,

50:28

we're doing the right,

50:36

and if you were to start saying, "I wonder,"

50:37

you know, I wouldn't want, at the time

50:41

I wouldn't have wanted to risk ruining

50:43

any sort of working relationships by expressing that,

50:45

sort of view.

50:49

Interviewer

I mean, listening to you,

50:52

I'm wondering you think maybe others had similar thoughts

50:53

but they wouldn't say it to you for the same reasons--

50:55

-

Oh it's quite possible.

50:57

Like I said, I would have never have known

50:59

unless that one person had spoke up,

51:02

right at the very end.

51:04

Interviewer

Did you ever speak to him when he spoke up

51:06

and say you felt the same?

51:08

-

No, no, no.

51:09

Interviewer

Did you ever see any of the detainees

51:13

in the clinic who tried to commit suicide?

51:16

-

Yes, yes.

51:19

Interviewer

Could you tell us about it?

51:20

-

It was only seeing.

51:22

I started hearing stories about a guy,

51:26

well, first of all, I started seeing a lot of guards

51:32

in the hospital and in a special room we had.

51:34

And, like I said, I try to, try to kind of put,

51:40

'cause if I, step out,

51:45

I know somebody is gonna say something to me.

51:47

So, I just try and go in and out,

51:48

not look too far to the side.

51:51

But I start hearing stories of some guy,

51:56

they called Timmy and that's from South Park,

51:58

the little disabled kid in the wheelchair.

52:02

And they said that he had, tried to hang himself

52:08

and that he had gone too long and had brain damage.

52:12

That's the rumor outside, during the barbecue time.

52:18

So yeah, I walked by that room one day

52:24

and I saw a guy who sort of fit that description.

52:28

And I had asked later, "The guy they have in that room

52:31

is that the one they call?"

52:34

"Yeah that's the one."

52:36

And he was, he wasn't shackled by handcuffs,

52:38

but they had more like a bandage kind of restraints.

52:47

And he was sitting up in bed like this and he didn't,

52:52

he did not look good.

52:57

He looked like he, he looked like he was mentally disabled.

52:58

Interviewer

What was he wearing?

53:04

-

I think he, I can't say for sure.

53:12

You know, time has passed.

53:16

Interviewer

And you wouldn't know his nationality,

53:18

would you?

53:19

-

No.

Before this, even during it, I didn't re, well no,

53:23

during it, I started to learn

53:28

that there were so many different ethnicities

53:30

and languages in this small area known as Afghanistan.

53:33

I had no idea that there were

53:37

so many different languages and people.

53:39

But yeah, the Pashtun and speakers and others.

53:43

So I wouldn't, I wouldn't have known to think

53:48

that there was something different at the time.

53:51

Interviewer

Did you speak to doctors

53:54

about their experiences?

53:56

-

I didn't speak to doctors about their experiences.

54:00

One of the reasons I think that would be

54:04

is because they were segregated from us quite a bit.

54:06

You know, they're either in, at least in the main hospital,

54:16

the clinics may have been different.

54:19

But they were in their office, doors closed.

54:23

You don't go in and bother a doctor when his door is closed.

54:27

Interviewer

And they didn't come to the barbecues

54:31

or drinking with you guys?

54:32

-

No, that's against regulations.

54:34

Interviewer

They're not allowed--

54:36

-

To fraternize, yeah.

54:37

Interviewer

You can only fraternize with your own,

54:39

-

Enlisted, yeah.

54:41

Interviewer

And--

54:44

-

I'm not saying it didn't happen sometimes but,

54:44

as a rule no.

54:47

Interviewer

Are nurses at your level

54:49

or are they also separate?

54:51

-

Yes.

54:53

Interviewer

Which?

-

Nurses are officers,

54:54

and subject to the same fraternization rules.

54:58

Interviewer

So there's a strict hierarchy of each group?

55:03

-

Sure.

55:07

Interviewer

That you weren't allowed

55:08

to fraternize off at, when you were,

55:09

-

I'm not saying it didn't happen because I'm sure it did.

55:10

Especially with the women, because in Guantanamo

55:14

if you're a woman, you have carte blanche.

55:19

Interviewer

Did you ever see any detainees

55:26

who were coming from a hunger strike?

55:32

-

No, no I didn't.

55:37

I don't know, I'm trying to remember.

55:43

I don't remember that there was ever a hunger strike

55:46

while I was there.

55:49

There may have been something that went on,

55:50

but no I, and if, I definitely didn't hear anything

55:58

about any force feeding or anything like that.

56:02

Interviewer

You didn't see it?

56:04

-

I didn't see that, no.

56:05

The only person who may have been force fed,

56:06

would probably have been the detainee they called Timmy.

56:10

Interviewer

But you didn't see that happen either?

56:18

-

I saw him with a feeding tube.

56:21

He's the only, well, okay,

56:23

I guess what I need to say is that he's the only one I saw

56:24

with a feeding tube and he was restrained.

56:26

So, but,

56:29

Interviewer

You don't know why.

56:32

-

I assume it's because he had no mental capacity

56:34

to feed himself or would knock the tube out or.

56:37

Interviewer

So were there some permanent people in the,

56:42

-

Within the camp?

56:49

Interviewer

The clinic?

56:50

No in the clinic work,

56:51

-

In the clinic no,

not that I'm aware of.

56:52

Interviewer

So they would come and go.

56:53

You would see them and,

56:54

-

Yes.

Interviewer

And do you know about how long it would be?

56:57

-

Oh, I'm sorry.

56:59

Interviewer

The man in the clinic you saw in cots.

57:00

-

Oh, oh, oh, oh, yes.

57:02

No, they weren't, they would come and go, as the healed,

57:03

they would be sent back to the blocks.

57:06

Interviewer

And was Timmy always there once saw him?

57:08

-

Once I saw him, that one time, yeah he was there,

57:10

all the time.

57:13

But he was like, it's kind of divided into my,

57:15

the aisle I went down was on this side and his was,

57:19

the room where he was in was over on the other side.

57:22

So I didn't have reason very often

57:24

to go over that direction.

57:26

And so I didn't.

57:28

But yeah, he was there the whole time.

57:30

Interviewer

Could you, have any sense on his age?

57:31

-

He looked young.

57:35

You know with beards and stuff,

57:41

it's kinda hard to tell, he, but they did shave him.

57:43

And I don't know, he looked 19, 20, 21,

57:49

it's hard, it's hard to put ages on some people.

57:55

Interviewer

Did you wonder why someone would try

57:59

to commit suicide while at the base?

58:01

-

Yeah, I knew exactly why.

58:03

Interviewer

Why?

58:06

-

Because if, I thought about this, probably because of him.

58:07

If you thought, you've been here, what five years,

58:13

and if you had no and they told you

58:18

you were always gonna be here and you would never go home.

58:22

Or if you ever got the idea that you would never go home

58:25

and this was gonna be the rest of your life.

58:29

Why, wouldn't you kill yourself?

58:31

I'd kill myself.

58:35

Interviewer

Well, did that kind of,

58:39

that's a discussion you wouldn't have with other people?

58:42

-

No, no, no, no, it's,

58:44

they, I didn't see, first of all,

58:53

I didn't see anybody thinking that deeply about it.

58:58

I didn't see anybody kind of like,

59:02

any visible sign of anybody wrestling with their thing.

59:07

Everybody was kind of busy doing their drinking

59:11

and the partying and the, and didn't see,

59:13

and I didn't hear any people voicing any sort of feeling

59:17

like that, but yeah.

59:24

Interviewer

So when you thought like that,

59:28

did you write it down or send a note to anybody

59:29

or you just kept it with you?

59:32

-

I just kept it with me.

59:34

I haven't even told my,

59:38

I don't know how much my parents even know.

59:40

They picked me up when I got back

59:43

and they took me to dinner and they said,

59:46

"Well, how was it?"

59:49

And, I almost started to cry and I said, "It's bad.

59:54

It's really not a good place."

59:59

So,

1:00:02

Interviewer

Is that the end of the conversation?

1:00:04

-

Yeah, that was it.

1:00:06

Interviewer

They didn't wanna ask anymore.

1:00:07

-

Right, yep.

1:00:08

Interviewer

Did you ever think that maybe

1:00:11

it would be helpful to you to talk to someone about that?

1:00:13

-

Yeah.

1:00:19

Interviewer

But you never.

1:00:19

-

I went to, when I got out, I started, well,

1:00:25

even before I started seeing a psychiatrist,

1:00:28

but more than just talking about the situation

1:00:34

it was more like, here, how you doing on your medication?

1:00:37

Do you need more?

1:00:42

Do you need less?

1:00:43

Interviewer

The psychiatrist didn't wanna hear

1:00:45

the story of it?

1:00:46

-

We talked about it briefly.

1:00:52

Part of the problem is that the more you talk about it,

1:00:56

the more you dredge it up.

1:01:00

The more dreams I have about it, more irritable I get.

1:01:03

And so it really is best to, once I've done this,

1:01:12

and I kind of thought I was done when I did the thing

1:01:16

for UC Davis professor, just to let it fall back

1:01:19

and let go of it, yeah.

1:01:25

Interviewer

Did you ever talk to any psychologist

1:01:31

at the base?

1:01:34

Not for your behalf, but for the detainees behalf?

1:01:35

-

I,

1:01:41

they had a special clearance for a psychiatric unit.

1:01:47

I never talked to them.

1:01:53

I did talk to some of the psychiatry,

1:01:57

psychiatric technicians that worked there.

1:01:59

I had a couple of bad run-ins with them.

1:02:06

I did not like one of them,

1:02:08

but I never talked to a psychiatrist there

1:02:13

about the patients, but I saw firsthand

1:02:15

the patients in the cages there in their department

1:02:19

and is very haunting actually.

1:02:22

Interviewer

Do you mind describing that for us?

1:02:27

-

Yeah, first of all, it was like a dog kennel

1:02:29

with a central passage or a milking barn,

1:02:40

I don't know if you have any experience in dairies at all.

1:02:43

Kind of like a milking barn,

1:02:46

not saying it was dirty like a milking barn,

1:02:48

I'm saying it was like, you only have the central passage

1:02:49

and then you got the, the cells on each side

1:02:51

and each one's open, the cross hatch paneling,

1:02:54

metal paneling, very little room to move.

1:03:01

And I just saw isle after, patient after patient

1:03:08

just sitting huddled like this, just staring off into space.

1:03:14

And I was like, "Oh dear, what the hell's going on here?"

1:03:19

And nobody really talked about what was going on

1:03:28

except for the guy that I didn't get along with.

1:03:31

And it was explained to me that they are

1:03:35

in a system of rewards and punishments,

1:03:39

where they can keep personal items

1:03:43

if they behave and do what's asked of them.

1:03:45

And if they failed to do it,

1:03:47

then personal comfort items are removed,

1:03:51

which sounds very clinical and very,

1:03:55

it's kind of like how you train a dog.

1:03:58

But you know, they made it sound okay, I guess.

1:04:02

And then, I had this one technician who I will be upfront,

1:04:06

I had a personal beef with him before,

1:04:15

about something in the living quarters.

1:04:17

But he came up to me after a shift.

1:04:21

He worked the night shift and I came in and he was there

1:04:23

and I just try and be cordial, I said, "How's it going?"

1:04:26

He said he had a rough night,

1:04:29

he had stripped a detainee naked.

1:04:30

I said, "Why did you strip a detainee naked?"

1:04:32

And he said, "Well, he wasn't being cooperative."

1:04:37

And I said, "I don't think that's for you to decide."

1:04:40

I don't know, honestly, I don't know how they worked there.

1:04:45

I don't know the thing, but he started,

1:04:48

he was starting to brag to me

1:04:50

about how he had stripped a detainee naked.

1:04:52

And I just couldn't believe that sort of authority

1:04:56

was invested in him.

1:05:00

And so I told a, the commanding nurse

1:05:05

of the detention facility that that's what he had told me

1:05:13

and that I didn't think it was an appropriate thing

1:05:18

for them to be doing.

1:05:21

And he said, "Yeah, okay."

1:05:26

And that was the last I heard about it.

1:05:30

It was, yeah, okay.

1:05:33

Interviewer

Did you ever see that psych tech again?

1:05:35

-

Oh yeah.

1:05:37

Interviewer

Did he ever say anything to you

1:05:38

about it afterwards?

1:05:39

-

No, no.

Interviewer

And what does it mean to strip them naked?

1:05:41

The psych tech actually,

1:05:43

-

Well, you know I wonder myself,

1:05:44

I assume he meant strip naked.

1:05:46

Interviewer

That he can do it,

1:05:49

he can touch the detainee?

1:05:50

-

It felt like, the way he was telling me,

1:05:51

and again, you have to understand

1:05:55

that there's a lot of bragging that can go on about,

1:05:57

"Yeah, I did this.

1:06:00

Yeah, I did that, yeah."

1:06:01

And they might be just blowing total smoke.

1:06:05

But in this particular case, I was rather startled by it.

1:06:09

And even on the off case that he was telling the truth,

1:06:14

I wanted somebody else to be aware of it.

1:06:17

Interviewer

But he would physically be able to touch

1:06:21

the detainee then which I assume.

1:06:23

-

Well, somebody would have to physically do it.

1:06:25

The detainee's not gonna do it themself.

1:06:27

Interviewer

Well, he could be ordered to.

1:06:30

-

Well he could be ordered to,

1:06:31

but I don't know, require a whole, I don't

1:06:32

I'm not sure.

1:06:37

Interviewer

When you said that detainees

1:06:38

looked catatonic the way you showed it--

1:06:39

-

Yeah like animals, like they,

1:06:44

I don't know what shell shock really is

1:06:47

but I've heard the term and seen it depicted in movie,

1:06:49

that's kind of thing I thought,

1:06:52

was that they were sort of shell shocked,

1:06:55

just kinda staring.

1:06:57

Interviewer

Then what good would a comfort item do

1:06:59

if they're not, sounds like they wouldn't even be aware

1:07:01

of what was given or--

1:07:03

-

Well there, my description is of maybe

1:07:03

three to five people that I saw were curled up like that.

1:07:08

There's some others that were just sitting there.

1:07:15

So maybe there, I don't know,

1:07:17

I can tell you what I saw

1:07:20

and I can tell you what I was told, but I don't,

1:07:22

I don't know how the two necessarily mesh together.

1:07:26

Interviewer

And do you know if these men

1:07:30

would stay in this?

1:07:34

This is the mental ward, I assume.

1:07:35

-

Yeah.

1:07:37

Interviewer

Would they stay there

1:07:38

for long periods of time?

1:07:39

-

I couldn't answer that.

1:07:40

Like I said, you had to have special clearance

1:07:44

to enter that area.

1:07:48

And I'd only been in there twice.

1:07:49

Interviewer

And you never spoke

1:07:51

to any of the men in there or did you try?

1:07:52

-

Oh, definitely not.

1:07:54

Interviewer

Because?

1:07:56

-

You're talking about the detainees?

1:07:58

Oh yeah because, first of all, there's guards everywhere.

1:08:00

And if you're in there without a special clearance,

1:08:06

their eye is on you.

1:08:09

And I'm well aware of this and I'm gonna follow the rules.

1:08:11

Interviewer

Did you ever go to the general camps at all

1:08:23

in Guantanamo other than perhaps seven or not, but like,

1:08:26

there's five and six.

1:08:29

-

I don't know of any other.

1:08:30

Interviewer

You didn't know of any other,

1:08:32

-

Well you're taught, there's a big compartmentalization

1:08:32

that goes on.

1:08:38

And also there's, some of this may also be

1:08:39

my lack of memory.

1:08:41

But there is, within the compound various camps.

1:08:45

Camp Five, camp whatever.

1:08:50

And when I'm talking, I'm talking about the compound.

1:08:52

Camp Seven or whatever the secret supposedly compound was

1:08:55

that I went to wasn't even in this large compound.

1:09:00

Interviewer

In the large company, you did have access,

1:09:04

you would go to five or six?

1:09:06

-

No, no, each area is locked off.

1:09:08

Interviewer

So you wouldn't be able to--

1:09:12

-

Unless you have the security clearance to go there,

1:09:13

yeah, you can't.

1:09:18

No, without purpose, there's no reason to travel there.

1:09:19

Interviewer

How many hours a day

1:09:27

and how many days a week did you work?

1:09:28

-

Oh, six, sometimes seven days a week.

1:09:35

I only ever took one personal day.

1:09:41

Worked six to three, something like that.

1:09:47

Interviewer

Six in the morning

1:09:53

to three in the afternoon?

1:09:54

-

Yeah.

1:09:55

Interviewer

And then starting at three,

1:09:56

-

And then I'd run.

1:09:57

Interviewer

You'd go running?

1:09:58

-

Yeah.

1:09:59

Interviewer

And then?

1:10:00

-

Come home, eat or go out to eat with people that,

1:10:02

they'd come by, pick me up or whatever.

1:10:06

And go to bed, start the next day.

1:10:09

Interviewer

Or go out and barbecue or drinking, I guess.

1:10:13

-

Sometimes, yeah.

1:10:16

I was a little done with the drinking thing by that time,

1:10:19

I was gosh, 28, I was over 30 years old at the time,

1:10:22

so I was kinda done with the drinking thing.

1:10:30

I was, yeah, then that was the other thing too, I was older.

1:10:33

I was much older than these kids, men and women.

1:10:36

They're kids, they're 18, 19, 20 years old.

1:10:39

So, you know, I had that advantage as well.

1:10:46

Interviewer

Is it an advantage?

1:10:49

Did you find that an advantage?

1:10:50

-

Sometimes, in that I probably had more self-control

1:10:54

than and I was done with the drinking thing.

1:11:01

So there's that, but there's also the thing where,

1:11:05

I'm segregated from the people I can relate to at my age.

1:11:10

The people who are the officers and stuff.

1:11:16

People with that college education,

1:11:18

even though I hadn't completed my college education

1:11:21

at the time, I could still relate more to those people,

1:11:23

but we weren't allowed to hang out

1:11:28

and be friends and things like that so,

1:11:31

Interviewer

Were you ready to leave when you left?

1:11:34

-

Oh yeah.

1:11:36

I'm not gonna say my entire time at Guantanamo was horrible

1:11:41

'cause it wasn't, it was again, a dichotomy.

1:11:44

I found the large iguanas, fascinating.

1:11:47

I went scuba diving, the most beautiful untouched

1:11:51

coral reefs out in the bay there

1:11:54

that hardly anybody's gonna ever see.

1:11:58

I had a great time driving a beat up car around the island,

1:12:04

it was hilarious.

1:12:08

It was painted like American flag

1:12:10

and it was a beat up old Datsun B210, with the,

1:12:12

I could see the floor or the the road passing by

1:12:17

and that's not a joke.

1:12:19

I know people joke about, my car is so rusted.

1:12:21

No, I could actually see the road

1:12:23

under my feet as I drove.

1:12:25

And so, I had a good time as well as I was horrified

1:12:30

at some of the stuff that went on.

1:12:36

I was both.

1:12:39

Interviewer

So, were you counting the days

1:12:43

til you could leave?

1:12:47

Are you saying you were glad to leave?

1:12:48

Were you?

1:12:50

-

I don't remember if I was counting the days or not.

1:12:56

I knew I was eager to see my family again.

1:12:58

Interviewer

You couldn't get a break,

1:13:02

you couldn't leave the base to go?

1:13:02

-

No, no.

1:13:04

And we were told that all of our phone communications

1:13:06

would be monitored.

1:13:11

All of our internet use would be monitored.

1:13:12

So, you know, I didn't, write home about what was going on

1:13:16

or anything because I didn't want,

1:13:21

to be getting in trouble for any of that kinda thing.

1:13:24

As, they develop a large degree of paranoia.

1:13:28

Whether they are able to monitor all the email messages

1:13:33

that go back and forth.

1:13:37

Whether they're able to, I don't know,

1:13:38

but they told us they were.

1:13:40

And so I believed them.

1:13:42

And it really adds to the whole paranoia of the whole fear

1:13:44

of the whole place, yeah.

1:13:49

Interviewer

This is a personal and feel free to just say

1:13:50

you'd rather not answer it,

1:13:52

but since you mentioned you saw a psychiatrist,

1:13:53

what had propelled you to do that?

1:13:57

Why did you feel?

1:13:59

(siren blaring)

1:14:02

-

Because I,

1:14:06

was having problems that I thought were unrelated

1:14:11

and I was very angry.

1:14:18

I didn't know why I was angry.

1:14:23

I would sometimes just cry.

1:14:28

Interviewer

Once you got home?

1:14:35

-

Yeah, when I got home.

1:14:36

I would like watch, I just watch a movie and anything,

1:14:37

all of a sudden, I just be like crying.

1:14:44

I'm, "What the hell?

1:14:45

What is the matter with me?

1:14:47

This is just not the way a guy acts."

1:14:48

And so I, so I saw, made an appointment,

1:14:53

go see somebody and they started me on a medication

1:14:57

and it wasn't really related,

1:15:02

there was no real connections made to the experience as,

1:15:04

you know, and I thought they were unrelated as well.

1:15:11

I didn't realize and maybe I still don't,

1:15:15

how much that experience affected me.

1:15:21

Interviewer

Well, are you saying

1:15:24

there is a connection probably,

1:15:25

that experiences is a cause of your anger?

1:15:27

-

Oh yes, yes.

1:15:28

And when I started doing the thing for the,

1:15:33

Witness for Guantanamo Project,

1:15:39

Interviewer

That's us.

1:15:42

-

No, the one for,

1:15:43

Interviewer

Davis.

-

Davis, the one for UC Davis.

1:15:44

I think they call it, he calls it the same thing.

1:15:46

I became, it just, it got worse again, it got so much worse.

1:15:52

I started being self-destructive in,

1:16:02

not in your typical ways.

1:16:08

What I'm talking about is, my short temper at work,

1:16:11

if you don't, if you blow up at your boss,

1:16:16

that's not a good thing,

1:16:20

you're not gonna stay employed very long if you do that.

1:16:21

So, that sort of thing, irritation, impatience thing,

1:16:26

it got a lot worse when I did that.

1:16:32

And when it was over, it went away.

1:16:36

And when I'd finished writing all the details

1:16:40

and everything down that I could remember,

1:16:42

and it was like, I dumped it all, it was gone.

1:16:45

Luckily I haven't had any sort of recurrence

1:16:52

with your project here.

1:16:54

Interviewer

Well, have you heard

1:16:57

other people having similar experiences

1:16:58

after they left Guantanamo?

1:17:00

-

I haven't talked to a single person.

1:17:01

Interviewer

Since you left?

1:17:03

-

No.

1:17:04

Interviewer

By design or just,

1:17:06

-

Well the military system sort of works that way.

1:17:08

You've got, you all, well, first of all,

1:17:10

all those people who were there

1:17:12

came as a group from the east coast, they were all deployed.

1:17:14

They all knew each other before as a group

1:17:18

and they deployed together and they went back together

1:17:21

to the east coast.

1:17:23

I came from the west coast by myself

1:17:24

and I went back to the west coast by myself.

1:17:26

Interviewer

What about your friend from the,

1:17:28

-

He was east coast?

1:17:31

He was, he went to east coast.

1:17:31

Interviewer

So you never really stayed

1:17:34

in touch with him?

1:17:35

-

No, no.

1:17:37

Interviewer

So have you heard stories about

1:17:39

of other people also having?

1:17:42

-

I have not, but I have actively, I actively,

1:17:44

I actively avoid movies about prisons

1:17:49

and maltreatment of people.

1:17:52

I purposely avoid reading about Guantanamo.

1:17:54

I purposely avoid, any sort of,

1:17:59

by doing so I have not read any of the, many of the stories.

1:18:07

I've read some of the ones that UC Davis,

1:18:11

while I was doing my work, but that was it.

1:18:13

Interviewer

It changed you?

1:18:22

-

Yeah.

1:18:25

Interviewer

Can you tell us.

1:18:27

-

I am much less trusting, especially of our government.

1:18:31

This may sound like,

1:18:39

everybody says that or some right-wing nut job

1:18:47

as I've heard said,

1:18:54

but I don't know what was going on there exactly 100%.

1:18:55

And I was that close to it.

1:19:05

And I don't think anybody else knows what's going on there.

1:19:08

And that experience, I'm just repeating myself.

1:19:18

So I'm not sure how useful this is.

1:19:22

Yeah, I'm more distrustful of our government

1:19:27

and what our government says is true,

1:19:30

especially if it comes from a military.

1:19:33

And I am not anti, I am not anti-military.

1:19:38

Maybe we'll have a chance to talk about that later but,

1:19:46

that was the best thing I ever did

1:19:52

was to join the military for myself.

1:19:53

And I don't think it's too bad to be suspicious.

1:19:58

I think maybe at certain times I've gone over

1:20:04

to the side of paranoia, but you know, I'm not completely,

1:20:06

I'm still able to keep a perspective I think.

1:20:11

So yeah, I've changed, I'm not as trusting.

1:20:19

I'm more skeptical.

1:20:23

It's given me the perspective because I'm skeptical to,

1:20:29

in internet, when I read news stories of things

1:20:41

to realize that, yeah I am only getting

1:20:49

one side of the story.

1:20:53

Even though it's the American news media

1:20:54

who's supposed to be fair and,

1:20:56

not necessarily 'cause there is,

1:20:58

that's the other thing too, cultural difference.

1:21:06

I learned how different, I thought I learned

1:21:08

cultural difference when I went to Japan,

1:21:12

'cause that's pretty different from ours.

1:21:14

But this is like in a whole another direction, different.

1:21:16

And so, the way they treat each other

1:21:20

and I'm speaking of people from Afghanistan.

1:21:26

And the way they bond, the way they treat women,

1:21:32

the way they treat their religion

1:21:35

is just so very, very different.

1:21:38

And I've, I can't say I agree with everything

1:21:41

that that is, that they do

1:21:45

but I have to just respect it as it's a different lifestyle.

1:21:47

It's a different way of looking at the world.

1:21:54

And that's a valuable thing I think I've changed through,

1:21:57

partly through this experience

1:22:03

and partly through my whole Naval career,

1:22:04

going overseas to Japan, different places.

1:22:07

Interviewer

Well, you see yourself as, sounds to me

1:22:11

as more reflective or thoughtful and, then you,

1:22:14

lights up to be before, I mean it's forced you to be,

1:22:19

is that what I'm hearing?

1:22:22

-

I've always been reflective I guess,

1:22:26

and thoughtful I think.

1:22:32

But I think this has allowed me to question

1:22:39

my own beliefs more easily,

1:22:42

more easily question my own beliefs, as opposed to,

1:22:46

think about it and think this is the way it is.

1:22:50

Well now, now I add in, "Or is it,

1:22:53

or is it the way it is?"

1:22:57

Interviewer

Is that a good thing?

1:22:59

-

It takes a lot more time to figure things out that way.

1:23:01

You got an extra question to throw into yourself but,

1:23:03

yeah, I think it is, I think it is.

1:23:08

Interviewer

Should we close Guantanamo?

1:23:11

-

Oh, definitely.

1:23:13

Interviewer

Why?

1:23:15

-

Why keep it open?

1:23:18

Why,

1:23:20

I wish I had a copy of the declaration of independence here.

1:23:26

Interviewer

What would you do with it of you did?

1:23:33

-

I'd quote you some things.

1:23:35

All men are created equal.

1:23:38

Are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable,

1:23:41

endowed by their creator with certain analienable,

1:23:44

I'm not sure is inalienable or analienable,

1:23:50

inalienable rights.

1:23:52

And we built this country, in my view to protect that idea.

1:23:56

And when, people come into this country's power,

1:24:05

whether through war or any other way,

1:24:10

they fall under that protection.

1:24:17

And includes the right to fair trial.

1:24:20

Includes the right to be judged by their peers.

1:24:24

And they're not getting that there.

1:24:33

And there is such a clear linkage in my mind

1:24:36

between those God-given rights,

1:24:41

and what those people are not getting.

1:24:48

It wasn't for all Americans that these rights,

1:24:53

it wasn't just for white, Anglo, protestant males.

1:24:59

It was all men, wherever you are,

1:25:04

are endowed by their creator with these rights.

1:25:09

Are you gonna protect them or are you not?

1:25:15

That's what we're here for.

1:25:18

And, I don't even remember the first part of your question.

1:25:21

I'm sorry.

1:25:26

Interviewer

Why we should be closing Guantanamo.

1:25:27

-

So yeah, so that place is completely counter

1:25:29

to that belief and that view of how I believe this country

1:25:37

was founded and believed in.

1:25:42

And how I've learned this country is supposed to be,

1:25:46

through growing up, through teachers

1:25:50

through parents, through experience.

1:25:52

And it's just, un-American,

1:25:58

it's an un-American thing to be doing.

1:26:00

Interviewer

What would you do

1:26:09

to make this a better country?

1:26:11

How would, what do you think we did wrong?

1:26:12

-

We got angry.

1:26:20

Justice isn't angry, I don't think.

1:26:25

And we're trying to dole out justice while angry

1:26:31

and it's, they're incompatible.

1:26:39

(car engine revving)

1:26:42

And we should take that into account,

1:26:46

when we go to dole out justice.

1:26:50

Your parents don't discipline,

1:26:55

not supposed to, when they're angry,

1:26:57

'cause then it's just punitive, it's just immature.

1:27:02

And that's not the way a mature country should be acting.

1:27:06

Interviewer

Are there some other thoughts

1:27:17

that I didn't ask you about

1:27:19

that you'd like to share with us

1:27:20

either about the future America, about yourself

1:27:22

or your experiences?.

1:27:25

-

People may look at this interview and say,

1:27:32

"Well he's,

1:27:36

he's just, being anti-American."

1:27:41

Or too soft on those detainees.

1:27:46

But I have no problem, it is strictly a legal thing in that,

1:27:52

if these people, if we killed them on the battlefield,

1:28:03

I'd have no problem, no conscience about it.

1:28:08

But there are in our power and they are powerless.

1:28:14

And that is a real distinction.

1:28:18

So legally, I feel that we ought to just kinda say,

1:28:28

"Okay, well we screwed up, you're all free to go.

1:28:36

Sorry about this."

1:28:38

And then if they wanna turn to mischievousness later,

1:28:40

let them take their chances and we'll kill them out there.

1:28:44

But this is not the way to do it.

1:28:51

This is logically and morally wrong to be doing.

1:28:53

And that's my stand.

1:29:03

I'm not easy on them, I'm just being harder on us

1:29:04

and holding us to the higher standard.

1:29:11

And would like to see us held to the higher standard.

1:29:15

Interviewer

Do you think we will get there?

1:29:19

-

We always get there.

1:29:23

We've always gotten there.

1:29:27

It just takes time and people.

1:29:30

And maybe I can be a little person in that, I don't know.

1:29:35

But that's why I'm talking to you.

1:29:39

Interviewer

Anything else there?

1:29:45

-

I can't think of anything right now but,

1:29:47

Interviewer

Johnny needs about 20 seconds of quiet time

1:29:51

where he just, has a sound period that he set

1:29:54

for the video and then we'll be done so.

1:29:59

-

Okay.

1:30:01

Do you want me to look a certain way or?

1:30:04

Camera man

No we're not,

1:30:06

camera's not even focused on you.

1:30:07

Alfred

Okay.

1:30:08

Camera man

Begin room tone.

1:30:10

Souza, Alfred - Interview master file

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