Sloan, Cliff - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Good morning.

0:05

-

Good morning.

0:06

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:07

for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:08

We invite you to tell us of your experiences

0:12

and involvement with the Guantanamo Bay Detention Center.

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We are hoping to provide you an opportunity to

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tell your story in your own words.

0:24

And we're creating an archive of stories

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so that people in America

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and around the world will have a better opportunity

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to understand what happened in Guantanamo

0:33

in the last dozen years,

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Future generations must know what happened

0:38

and by telling your story you're contributing to history.

0:40

And we certainly appreciate your willingness to

0:43

take the time to come here today.

0:46

-

Thank you, happy to be here.

0:48

Interviewer

Thank you.

0:49

And if there's any time you'd like to take a break

0:50

please let us know.

0:52

And if you do say something

0:53

that you would like us to remove,

0:54

if you let us know we can remove it.

0:56

-

Okay.

0:58

-

And we'd like to begin,

if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself

0:59

and telling us a little bit about your background

1:01

and when you were born and age and schooling.

1:03

-

Sure.

1:07

My name is Cliff Sloan and I was born December, 1957.

1:09

So I'm 57 and I grew up in Chicago,

1:15

went to Harvard for college, undergraduate.

1:20

Came to Washington,

1:24

worked on Capitol Hill for a couple years,

1:25

then went to Harvard Law School.

1:27

And I clerked for a couple of judges after that,

1:30

including Justice John Paul Stevens.

1:34

And I've been in Washington since then.

1:36

I've been at law firms.

1:39

I've had different positions in government.

1:41

I also spent eight years at the Washington Post Company.

1:44

Interviewer

And what caused you

1:48

to get involved with government, just?

1:49

-

Well initially I was always just very interested

1:52

in government and public issues.

1:57

And so I was really drawn to it

1:59

and was thrilled to be working on Capitol Hill

2:02

right after college for a Congressman from Chicago,

2:06

Sydney Yates, whom I respected tremendously.

2:09

But I've always just been very, very interested

2:11

in public issues.

2:13

Interviewer

And before you worked for President Obama

2:14

could you give us a little detail

2:16

on some of the other work you did for the government?

2:17

-

Certainly.

2:21

Well, as I mentioned, I clerked for two judges,

2:22

one on the Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia,

2:26

the Federal Court of Appeals for Judge J. Skelly Wright,

2:29

and then for Justice John Paul Stevens on the Supreme Court.

2:32

I also worked in the Office of Independent Counsel

2:36

on Iran-Contra under Judge Lawrence Walsh,

2:39

investigating Iran Contra

2:42

and part of the prosecutorial team there.

2:44

I worked in the Solicitor General's office

2:47

at the Justice Department in the first Bush administration

2:50

and I worked in the White House Counsel's Office

2:54

under President Clinton

2:56

in the first few years of his administration.

2:57

Interviewer

And did you know President Obama

3:01

when he selected you to be an envoy

3:03

or was it just through

3:05

these connections you just identified?

3:07

-

Well, I had met President Obama a few times

3:09

and I had worked with the White House on some matters,

3:13

particularly in terms of as an outside lawyer

3:17

looking at Supreme Court, possible Supreme Court nominees.

3:22

But I also knew Secretary of State Kerry quite well

3:26

and I had worked with him on a number of things.

3:29

And so I had a close relationship

3:32

with Secretary of State Kerry

3:35

and with other people working for him

3:38

at the State Department.

3:41

Interviewer

So I assume Secretary Kerry recommended you

3:42

and I assume he approached you

3:45

and asked you if you were interested.

3:47

Why were you interested?

3:49

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Well, it was not something that I had been thinking about,

3:51

but when I was approached about it

3:56

it's something that I thought that the issue of Guantanamo

4:01

was very important.

4:04

And if people felt like I could make a positive contribution

4:05

on it, it was something that I wanted to do

4:10

and something that I wanted to try to help out on.

4:15

I was convinced that President Obama, Secretary Kerry

4:18

and others were very serious about wanting to

4:22

tackle the problem, the issue of closing Guantanamo.

4:28

And of course this was after President Obama gave a speech

4:32

in May, 2013 at the National Defense University

4:35

in which he strongly reiterated

4:38

and renewed his commitment to closing Guantanamo

4:40

and that's something that I felt very strongly about

4:43

and I felt if I could make a contribution

4:46

I wanted to be a part of it.

4:49

Interviewer

And did,

4:51

why do you think you could make a contribution

4:52

given how frustrating it had been

4:53

in the past four to six years before you became an envoy?

4:55

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Well, as I say, I felt that

5:00

there was gonna be a renewed effort and renewed commitment.

5:06

I fully recognize it had been a difficult issue,

5:10

but I also felt that perhaps I could

5:14

bring some skills to it.

5:19

I had worked in Washington in a lot of different capacities.

5:23

I worked in administrations of both parties.

5:27

I worked in all three branches of government,

5:29

in a couple of the positions that I had worked in before,

5:33

both in the White House Counsel's Office

5:37

and in the solicitor General's Office.

5:38

I had a perspective on really all of the departments

5:40

and agencies in the federal government.

5:44

I had worked with Congress quite a bit.

5:45

And so while I knew that it was a difficult issue

5:49

I felt that perhaps I could make a contribution there.

5:53

Interviewer

And how'd you begin the process

5:57

once you were selected?

6:00

-

Well, so I began on July 1st, 2013,

6:02

and on July 2nd I went to Guantanamo

6:07

and spent a full day there,

6:12

looking at the facility, meeting with the military

6:16

the people who were there and getting a,

6:20

I think a good feel for the facility.

6:24

Also that first week I met with a number of the

6:28

human rights groups who have been very, very involved

6:31

in efforts to close Guantanamo.

6:34

And one thing that I felt was very important from

6:36

the beginning was really to try to have a fresh start on it.

6:38

I knew that it had been a very difficult issue

6:43

and that there was a lot of disappointment and frustration.

6:46

And I found when I was talking to people on all sides of it,

6:50

and I should also mention

6:56

that even before starting,

6:57

and certainly afterwards,

6:59

I was reaching out to a lot of people who had been involved

7:01

in the issue of, both in the Obama administration

7:04

and in the Bush administration

7:07

to try to get as much background

7:09

and insight as I could.

7:10

And one point that I noticed was that

7:12

a lot of people who had been involved in the issue

7:16

tended to want to sort of re-litigate old battles in a way.

7:19

And one thing that I felt very strongly

7:25

and I would say to them,

7:27

that I think in some ways that's the least productive thing

7:28

that I can do.

7:31

Let's just start fresh where we are, let's move forward,

7:32

let's move ahead.

7:36

What do you think we should do going forward?

7:38

Let's not look backwards, let's look forward.

7:40

And so that was something that I think was

7:43

was very important for me.

7:45

And I was, and I would say to people in meetings

7:47

that I think there's a new air of possibility

7:51

and that's how we should approach it.

7:54

So what are the sort of positive,

7:55

constructive actions that we can take in moving forward?

7:57

Interviewer

So when you spoke to people

8:01

did you, does that include the former envoys

8:03

and ambassadors who worked for both Bush

8:06

and Obama in trying to settle, resettle detainees?

8:09

-

Some yes, yeah definitely.

8:14

Definitely worked with a lot of people

8:16

who were very involved in the transfer process

8:17

in different phases of it, yes.

8:21

Interviewer

And what was your impression of Guantanamo

8:23

that day you went down there?

8:25

-

Well you know, to kind of,

8:27

I had been at Guantanamo once before

8:29

in the Clinton administration when it was housing

8:31

tens of thousands of,

8:36

I think actually it was Cubans at the time.

8:37

And I think there were some 30,000, so.

8:39

But when I went to Guantanamo I was

8:43

struck by a number of factors about it.

8:51

I mean, I thought that the...

8:56

The military certainly explained at length

8:59

the task that they were dealing with

9:03

which was a very difficult task

9:06

and everything that they were doing to try to discharge it.

9:08

I met with the three Uyghurs who were still at Guantanamo.

9:13

There had been a total of 22,

9:19

but there were three who were remaining there

9:22

and I met with them.

9:25

And certainly felt very, very strongly that one

9:27

very important priority was to move out

9:31

the last three Uyghurs,

9:35

for many reasons including the fact that

9:39

the U.S. government had said five years earlier,

9:41

had told the court that lack of legal authority

9:45

to be holding them

9:48

and there were practical problems with moving them.

9:49

But I felt very strongly that that was that

9:54

that was a very high priority.

9:56

Interviewer

So you actually spoke to detainees

9:59

while you were there at Guantanamo that day?

10:00

-

Yeah, I spoke to the three Uyghurs who were there, yes.

10:02

Interviewer

And did that change your impression

10:08

on who you're working for in terms of, you know

10:10

when you're trying to resettle these detainees?

10:14

Did you get a better sense of who these people are?

10:16

-

Well, it didn't change my impression

10:19

of who I was working for, but it did,

10:22

I think it was helpful to get a feel for the individuals.

10:23

And there were many different ways

10:30

of getting a feel for the individuals.

10:32

Certainly meeting with them was helpful,

10:36

but there also is very, very extensive information on them.

10:39

And that is one thing that I think is very important

10:42

that struck me throughout the time that I was there

10:46

is that sometimes people can speak in broad generalities

10:49

about the population at Guantanamo,

10:53

and there is, you know, tremendous variation among

10:56

the individuals who are there.

11:01

And it's really, I think one of the

11:03

unfortunate misconceptions when people

11:07

speak about the individuals at Guantanamo

11:11

in kind of broad sweeping terms that

11:13

ignore the differences among the population.

11:17

Interviewer

So after you came back home on July 2nd,

11:22

what was the next step you did?

11:25

-

Well, as I said, you know, one of the things

11:27

that I did that week also

11:29

was meet with the human rights groups

11:31

who had been very involved in closure.

11:33

But I immediately

11:35

tried to get in motion plans for transfer.

11:41

And so I,

11:47

there were a few people in the office

11:49

who had been at the State Department working on the issue.

11:51

I also had colleagues at agencies and departments

11:55

throughout the government

11:58

and one thing that was a priority

11:59

in the first few weeks was meeting with all of my colleagues

12:00

across the government including at

12:06

the Department of Defense,

12:07

the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the intelligence community,

12:08

the Justice Department, Homeland Security.

12:11

But one of the very top priorities was trying to see

12:14

who we could transfer and how to go about that.

12:20

And every transfer involves negotiations

12:23

with a foreign government

12:26

And whether the individuals are gonna be repatriated

12:28

to the country of their citizenship

12:33

or resettled to other countries.

12:35

And there's a preference for repatriation if it's feasible,

12:37

but for many of the detainees,

12:42

because of either security concerns

12:46

or humane treatment concerns in their home country,

12:48

it's not feasible to repatriate them.

12:52

So began tackling the issue of

12:54

possible transfers in terms of getting going.

13:00

There had been very few people who had been transferred

13:03

in the two to three years before I got there.

13:05

And so a real priority was to try to get going on transfers.

13:09

And so we started to make arrangements in terms of

13:14

reaching out to different countries,

13:18

arranging trips to those countries,

13:22

and to get the process rolling for getting transfers going.

13:24

Interviewer

How do you identify the countries?

13:31

Did other people identify the countries for you?

13:31

So they had spoken to these nations

13:34

before you became the envoy

13:37

or did you yourself identified in these countries?

13:39

-

Well, I would say it's a combination of the two.

13:42

I mean, first of all, there were some people who could be,

13:47

who could be repatriated.

13:51

And, you know, by the end of 2013,

13:54

so in the first six months that I was there,

13:57

we transferred 11 people.

14:00

And of those 11, a number of them were repatriated

14:02

to their countries of origin.

14:08

So four went to Algeria, two went to Saudi Arabia,

14:09

two went to--

14:19

-

Kuwait, wasn't it?

-

No not Kuwait at that time.

14:23

Two went to Sudan.

14:24

And then so eight of the 11 were repatriations.

14:26

And then by the end of the year,

14:31

the three Uyghurs went to Slovakia

14:33

so that was a resettlement.

14:35

But you can see there was a real focus

14:37

on the possibility of repatriation initially.

14:41

And as I say so in that six months, we got going on

14:45

the repatriation to those countries

14:50

and then I was very pleased

14:52

that we were able to resettle the three Uyghurs to Slovakia.

14:53

Interviewer

How did that happen?

14:58

Can you tell us, did you identify Slovakia

14:59

or did someone else?

15:02

And did you do negotiation for that?

15:02

-

I did do the negotiation

15:06

and I went to Bratislava

15:07

and I also separately met with officials from Slovakia.

15:11

You know, I can't get into details of the discussions

15:20

with the foreign government.

15:23

I would say we work closely with Slovakia

15:24

on a range of issues.

15:28

They had previously accepted three detainees from Guantanamo

15:32

for resettlement, either two or three,

15:38

I think it was three, in 2010 I believe.

15:40

But there also are,

15:45

there also is a wide range of other issues

15:46

that they work closely with the United States on

15:48

which we appreciate very much.

15:51

And so we talked to Slovakia,

15:53

then they were willing to take this action.

15:59

It was very, very important humanitarian action

16:00

and we were very grateful to them for doing so.

16:03

Interviewer

I assume you can't reveal whether in fact

16:07

there was some financial assistance to the countries

16:09

or to Slovakia for taking them in.

16:14

-

Yeah, I can't get in,

16:17

I cannot get into the arrangements,

16:20

but I will say that I think that

16:22

with countries and in general,

16:24

I was pleased by the support that we got

16:29

from a range of countries for resettlement during my tenure.

16:32

And I was pleased that we were able to move forward

16:38

on that front.

16:41

Which is really, it is a very significant action

16:43

when countries agree to do that.

16:46

And they do it in my experience,

16:48

there's a range of motivations.

16:52

They recognize the important humanitarian action.

16:55

Many countries, most countries

16:58

have called on the United States to close Guantanamo.

17:01

They recognize this as the only way

17:05

we're gonna be able to move forward and closing it.

17:07

They think there are very important issues,

17:09

not only for humanitarian reasons,

17:11

but frankly from security reasons that it

17:12

is a security problem that it hurts

17:15

our counter-terrorism efforts.

17:19

And they're very willing

17:23

to work with the United States on it.

17:24

Obviously as with everything with Guantanamo,

17:27

nothing is easy,

17:30

But I was very, very pleased by the support that we got

17:32

from a wide range of allies and friends and partners

17:37

in regions throughout the world.

17:44

And yeah, there was support that was helpful

17:46

from a wide range of religious organizations

17:49

including the Vatican and the Pope

17:52

called on countries to accept detainees.

17:54

International organizations,

17:58

such as the Organization of American States,

18:00

strongly urged member countries to accept detainees.

18:02

So, as I say, that's something I was very gratified by,

18:07

during my tenure.

18:11

-

Would you initiate those?

18:12

Would you contact the Vatican or the OAS

18:13

and ask them to assist you?

18:15

-

Well were in discussions with them.

18:18

I mean there are ongoing discussions,

18:21

just as there are with other countries, of course.

18:23

I mean it's important to recognize

18:26

for example with other countries,

18:28

it's part of the ongoing bilateral relationship

18:30

on a broad range of issues.

18:34

And they would obviously work very closely

18:36

with our ambassadors and our embassies in those countries.

18:37

And the same thing is true with international organizations

18:40

like the Organization of American States

18:44

or with the Vatican.

18:45

You know we have a broad range of ongoing conversations

18:47

and so this was something that we would talk to them about.

18:51

Interviewer

Did any country ever say to you

18:55

if the U.S. won't accept people why should we?

18:58

-

Yes, countries would say that.

19:00

'Cause as you know, there's a ban in current law

19:03

on detainees coming to the United States for any reason.

19:05

And what I would, and I would discuss it with countries.

19:08

And I would say first of all,

19:13

we're trying to get the law changed.

19:14

We think it's,

19:15

we think it's not right that there's a ban

19:19

on transferring detainees to the United States.

19:21

But also we have a practical problem,

19:24

which is we have people who are stuck in Guantanamo

19:27

solely because they don't have a country to go to.

19:30

That's the reality,

19:32

and current law prohibits them

19:34

from coming to the United States.

19:35

So the question is, do we do something about that?

19:36

And will you work with us on doing something about it?

19:39

Because this is the only way that these people

19:42

can get outta Guantanamo right now.

19:44

That simply is the reality.

19:46

But certainly that would come up in conversations.

19:48

Interviewer

And for security issues,

19:51

did countries say to you,

19:53

they were concerned about the security issues of these men?

19:54

I know the U.S. said they were concerned,

19:57

but were the countries themselves worried about that?

20:00

-

Well you know without going into detail,

20:03

certainly security arrangements

20:06

and security issues are something

20:10

that is very important in the discussion

20:11

with receiving countries.

20:14

So absolutely security issues is,

20:16

you know is something that is

20:21

discussed with other countries.

20:23

Interviewer

Did the OAS initiate

20:25

the contact with Uruguay?

20:27

-

Well again, without getting into details

20:32

on particular conversations,

20:37

but let me just say, you know, we have a strong relationship

20:40

with Uruguay and it was sort of

20:47

part of kinda bilateral discussions directly with Uruguay.

20:51

Interviewer

So what I'm hearing from you

20:56

is it's possible that there are discussions going on

20:58

with many nations currently,

21:01

even though you're no longer an envoy

21:03

and that maybe something could open up

21:05

and transfers could occur tomorrow for that matter,

21:07

based on what you had set forth, you know, months ago.

21:09

-

Certainly, I mean, and so this is,

21:16

my last day was December 31st.

21:18

Today is what, February 11th.

21:20

And so, but my knowledge as of December 31st,

21:23

yes there were ongoing discussions.

21:26

It sometimes, it takes a while,

21:29

in terms of discussions and arrangements

21:32

with foreign governments.

21:35

But there's certainly

21:38

was a very active effort underway

21:40

looking prospectively for additional transfers.

21:45

And that's something that is very much,

21:50

you know, part of the policy

21:52

of the United States government right now.

21:55

So yes, absolutely.

21:56

I think there's very, very active effort

21:57

to have additional transfers and additional discussions

21:59

with foreign governments, absolutely.

22:05

-

And I know you've said publicly why,

22:08

but I'll ask you, since this is for history

22:10

and people see this 50 years from now,

22:12

not necessarily tomorrow,

22:14

but why didn't you stay if you saw other people

22:16

in that transition where they will also move on?

22:20

Why weren't you there to help that too,

22:23

if you were so effective,

22:25

which apparently you were to help resettle these detainees?

22:26

-

Well in my discussions with Secretary Kerry,

22:31

when I agreed to take the position,

22:33

I said that I would stay 12 to 18 months,

22:36

and I stayed the full 18 months.

22:38

And I felt very committed to making sure

22:41

that we make as much progress as we could.

22:44

And in the course of the 18 months,

22:47

I think we made a great deal of progress in three areas.

22:50

Which is one, in terms of getting transfers going again.

22:55

As I mentioned, there had been almost no transfers

22:58

in the two, 2 1/2 years before the renewed effort.

23:01

And we transferred a total of 44 detainees,

23:11

including a number who were transferred on January 14th.

23:16

But there was a total of 44 detainees.

23:20

There were 166 there when I started on July 1st, 2013.

23:22

We transferred 44 of them.

23:27

Second, we worked with Congress successfully

23:29

to remove unnecessary obstacles to foreign transfers.

23:31

And third, we began an administrative process

23:35

for those who were not approved for transfer

23:39

and who are not facing formal criminal charges

23:40

in the military commissions

23:43

to give them a fresh look and a fresh opportunity

23:44

to show that they could now be approved for transfer

23:46

because they did not present a continuing

23:50

significant security concern that warranted

23:52

their continued incarceration.

23:54

And so on all three of those fronts,

23:57

I think those were very, very important efforts,

23:59

very important signs of progress.

24:04

And we also, I think, laid the foundation

24:07

for additional progress.

24:10

But I felt that I had,

24:13

as I say, I stayed the full 18 months, had gotten a lot done

24:16

and had set things in motion for additional progress.

24:22

Interviewer

I mean my fear is that

24:26

you were so strong and there's so much momentum,

24:28

and then by you leaving it could collapse again.

24:30

-

Well look, I think,

24:35

you know, I certainly did everything I could

24:38

to move the ball forward.

24:41

But this was not a one man effort.

24:43

I mean this was really, an all of government effort.

24:46

President Obama feels very strongly

24:50

about closing Guantanamo,

24:52

has made that very, very clear publicly.

24:53

I heard it from him directly in private.

24:58

And so I think, you know, throughout the government

25:01

there is a clear recognition

25:05

of the importance of moving forward.

25:08

The only thing that is very important is that

25:10

when people are approved for transfer,

25:12

it's based on a unanimous decision

25:15

by six departments and agencies:

25:18

the Department of Defense, the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

25:20

the Department of State, Department of Homeland Security

25:23

Department of Justice

25:26

and the Director of National Intelligence.

25:27

There's an interagency working group,

25:29

it's called the Guantanamo Detainee Transfer Working Group

25:31

which I co-chaired along with the special envoy

25:34

at the Defense Department.

25:38

It meets every other week.

25:41

It's in touch on a constant basis.

25:42

All six departments and agencies are very, very involved.

25:46

So, so there really is a sort of concerted government effort

25:50

in terms of moving forward.

25:55

Interviewer

Going back, did you encounter

25:57

any unexpected problems that, you know,

26:00

that no one informed you about it

26:03

and suddenly you were confronted with them?

26:05

Interviewer

No, I wouldn't say that there were

26:09

kind of unexpected problems.

26:11

I mean there, I mean I knew

26:13

it is an issue that has been a difficult issue.

26:15

And it has been,

26:19

there have been, you know, many problems

26:23

in kind of moving forward

26:26

and there are many misunderstandings about it.

26:28

So I knew that there were going to be zigs and zags

26:30

in the process

26:36

and, you know, and that proved to be the case.

26:37

But my overwhelming reaction was that I was pleased

26:42

at the progress that we were able to make.

26:47

And I do think there is a,

26:50

there's a lot of opportunity for sort of common ground

26:54

and a common sense approach

26:58

in terms of kinda moving forward with closing Guantanamo.

26:59

So, you know, so as I say,

27:03

while there were some zigs and zags,

27:05

I thought that the more important result

27:07

was that we were able to move forward.

27:12

Interviewer

I know you're very positive

27:14

and I really appreciate probably why you're so successful,

27:15

but I'm just curious if people around the world are,

27:18

you know, looking at Guantanamo as a black stain,

27:22

as you know, and that's why you want to close it.

27:24

But countries must be really angry at the U.S.

27:26

for maintaining and continuing,

27:28

and you must have had to have

27:30

some of that hostility come to you, or no, maybe not?

27:33

-

Well there's no question that

27:35

countries around the world

27:39

feel strongly that Guantanamo should be closed,

27:43

a broad range of countries.

27:45

And I heard that directly from them

27:47

and from different international organizations.

27:49

As I say that also sometimes was channeled

27:54

into a willingness to help us and work with us.

27:56

But I also heard that

27:59

from our ambassadors around the world,

28:00

that it's a friction point with

28:02

many countries around the world

28:07

and is something that undermines

28:09

our alliances and relationships.

28:13

And I had many ambassadors who implored me

28:17

to move forward as promptly as we could,

28:22

because it was an irritant with other countries.

28:26

But other countries also just felt strongly

28:29

about closing Guantanamo,

28:33

because it undermines collectively our security.

28:34

You know at one meeting that I had

28:37

with a very, very tough ally on counter-terrorism,

28:40

a country that's on the front lines of counter-terrorism,

28:45

not a European country, a country from another region,

28:48

at the end of the meeting this very senior official,

28:52

who as I say, this is a very tough and staunch

28:54

fighter against terrorism,

29:00

leaned forward and he said to me,

29:02

"you know the single greatest thing

29:03

the United States could do to combat terrorism

29:05

would be to close Guantanamo."

29:08

And so other countries felt about very strongly

29:10

about the imperative of moving forward

29:14

on closing the facility.

29:16

Interviewer

Do you think the message

29:17

reaches the general population of the U.S.?

29:20

-

Well, you know, I'm not sure if it is understood

29:24

as well as it should be.

29:27

And, you know, this is not just,

29:29

for example President Obama.

29:31

President George W. Bush's administration opened Guantanamo

29:33

became convinced by the end of his presidency

29:39

that Guantanamo should be closed.

29:40

And in his memoir, he says that

29:43

he was convinced Guantanamo should be closed

29:47

because it had become, and this is a quote,

29:49

"a propaganda tool for our enemies

29:52

and a distraction for our allies."

29:54

And there are many senior officials

29:58

from the Bush administration who were very active

30:03

in Homeland Security and Counter-Terrorism

30:05

who came to the same conclusion and who believe strongly

30:08

that it's time to turn the page

30:12

and close the chapter on Guantanamo.

30:16

And I don't think that the,

30:19

sometimes I don't think there's as much

30:21

of a public understanding about that consensus

30:23

across two administrations as there as there should be.

30:26

Interviewer

And why not?

30:30

Why doesn't Congress understand what you just explained?

30:31

-

Well, look I think that

30:35

there are a number of people in Congress

30:39

who do share that view.

30:41

As I say, I was pleased we were able to

30:43

work with Congress in 2013 to remove some of the obstacles.

30:45

And I think that it,

30:51

that a careful focus on the facts

30:55

leads one to that conclusion.

31:00

And so I remain hopeful and optimistic

31:02

that there is a common ground approach for moving forward

31:07

and that the light will shine on those facts

31:10

and that recognition.

31:16

Interviewer

What advice would you give the next envoy

31:17

and why hasn't he or she been selected yet?

31:20

-

Well, I know that Secretary Kerry and the White House

31:23

are actively looking at successors

31:29

and there definitely will be a successor.

31:33

And I'm sure that he or she will be a strong

31:36

and effective special envoy,

31:40

'cause it is a very, very high priority

31:42

for the President and for Secretary Kerry.

31:46

I think it is important to move forward

31:49

as promptly as possible.

31:52

And again, of the current population,

31:53

so 122 people there now, 54 are approved for transfer.

31:55

Most of those 54 were approved for transfer five years ago.

32:00

Many of them have been held at Guantanamo

32:05

for 12 or 13 years.

32:07

It is absolutely imperative to move forward

32:09

on transferring those who are approved for transfer

32:11

as soon as possible.

32:14

It's important in terms of progress and momentum

32:17

in closing Guantanamo.

32:21

It's important in making the problem more manageable.

32:23

And it's important for the individuals who are there,

32:26

for the human beings who are there,

32:29

who have been approved for transfer for a very long time.

32:31

So I think for everybody in government,

32:33

it is very important to recognize the priority

32:37

of moving forward on those approved for transfer

32:41

as promptly as possible.

32:45

Interviewer

And what advice would you give

32:46

the next envoy,

32:48

just practical advice, the kinds of things

32:49

that he or she wouldn't know,

32:51

you know from reading the newspapers,

32:54

the kinds of things that--

32:56

-

Well look, he or she will come into it,

32:58

not as a solitary figure,

33:03

with a very strong support framework

33:05

and it's worth emphasizing this.

33:09

Because first of all, there is,

33:11

there's an office of Guantanamo Closure

33:13

at the State Department.

33:16

It was the office I headed.

33:17

There are six other people in the office.

33:18

There's a deputy who's acting as acting special envoy.

33:21

And so by the way, one thing that's very important,

33:24

all the work at the office is going forward.

33:26

It's full speed ahead.

33:28

That office is up and running.

33:29

There is an acting special envoy and that, you know,

33:31

everything is moving ahead.

33:34

But there's that office.

33:36

There's the entire resources of the State Department.

33:38

Secretary Kerry has made it very clear

33:42

he's very committed to it, it's a priority for him,

33:45

it's a priority for the President.

33:47

So one works very closely with the embassies

33:50

around the world, as well as in Washington,

33:54

with all of the regional assistant secretaries,

33:57

so there's a separate assistant secretary for each region.

34:02

And then there also are different individual units

34:05

and entities within the State Department.

34:12

And so you've got all of the resources

34:14

of the State Department.

34:17

And then as I mentioned,

34:18

there are these six departments and agencies,

34:19

these five other departments and agencies,

34:22

all of whom are working very strongly on it,

34:25

as well as the White House

34:28

and the National Security Council.

34:29

So there is a very kind of robust framework

34:30

that somebody walks into

34:36

and very, very extensive ongoing efforts.

34:38

Interviewer

And will it succeed?

34:44

Do you think Guantanamo will be shut down

34:45

by the time President Obama leaves office?

34:47

-

I believe that it will be

34:50

and I think there definitely is a path to closure.

34:52

And the reason that I think it will be is because

34:56

President Obama feels very strongly

34:59

about closing the facility.

35:03

He's determined not to hand it off to his successor.

35:04

Yeah, he inherited it

35:10

and he doesn't wanna leave it to the next president.

35:11

And so I do believe

35:13

that it will be closed during President Obama's Presidency.

35:17

Interviewer

I hate to say this,

35:22

but President Obama on his second day of office

35:23

said that he wanted to close Guantanamo

35:26

and then nothing happened for six years.

35:28

So why are you so sure that now

35:30

a renewed effort is gonna make a difference?

35:33

-

Well first of all,

35:36

that's not accurate to say nothing happened for six years.

35:37

There were many transfers that were going forward

35:40

in 2009 and 2010.

35:44

Then Congress passed very severe restrictions

35:46

and the process shut down for two, 2 1/2 years.

35:53

But there were 242 individuals there

36:00

when President Obama took office.

36:04

There were 122 there now.

36:05

There was this, President Obama ordered this very

36:08

intensive review of every individual who was there,

36:12

which led to this approval for transfer,

36:15

which continues to be a guiding principle.

36:17

And it's a process that has stood the test of time.

36:21

The so-called recidivism numbers or re-engagement numbers

36:23

of those who went through that process is very small.

36:27

It was a very, very thorough and extensive process.

36:32

Now, I think it's unfortunate

36:34

that there hasn't been more progress.

36:38

And President Obama did call for it to be closed

36:41

within one year of his executive order

36:45

on the second day in office and was not able to do that.

36:48

But I think there has been some progress.

36:53

Now in terms of

36:56

why do I think things will move forward at this point?

36:59

I mean first of all as I say,

37:02

we were able to change the law

37:03

to remove some of the unnecessary obstacles.

37:05

And I just, I think that there were many

37:08

unanticipated developments in the first year or two.

37:13

Probably through this project,

37:17

you know that those intimately.

37:18

As I mentioned to you earlier in the interview,

37:21

I think in some ways the least productive thing

37:23

I can do is re-litigate those battles,

37:25

but I think a lot was learned from those battles.

37:27

And so I think the question is looking forward,

37:30

in the next two years of the Obama administration,

37:33

will it be possible to achieve this very important priority?

37:39

And I think the answer is yes.

37:43

Interviewer

And how will you convince Congress

37:45

or how will the next envoy

37:46

or this collection of robust agencies

37:47

convince Congress to release people into the U.S.?

37:53

-

Well what, I think that the path is clear.

37:57

So first of all,

38:01

transfer all of those who can be transferred

38:03

to foreign countries who can be transferred,

38:06

so safely and responsibly to foreign countries.

38:09

That's all those who are approved for transfer.

38:12

Then there's this ongoing periodic review board process.

38:14

And it has gone to conclusion on nine individuals.

38:18

It approved six of them for transfer

38:22

and some of those actually have been

38:24

transferred from Guantanamo.

38:25

So that's the first step, which is a very important step,

38:28

which is transfer all of those who can be transferred.

38:31

Get it down to a small core

38:34

who cannot safely be transferred to other countries.

38:37

For example, there are 10 who are facing charges

38:40

in the military commission system.

38:43

And at that point,

38:46

whatever that number of the small core is,

38:48

transfer them to the U.S. for super secure facilities.

38:50

I think when all of those who have been transferred

38:54

can be transferred and it's down to a small core,

38:57

it will make absolutely no sense

38:59

to keep them at Guantanamo.

39:01

As it is, it is exorbitantly expensive

39:03

to have the detention facility there.

39:06

There's a cost of more than

39:08

$3 million per detainee each year,

39:10

compared to approximately 75,000 per year per prisoner

39:13

at a super max facility.

39:17

And that doesn't even take into account

39:19

hundreds of millions of dollars

39:21

of infrastructure improvements that would be necessary

39:22

if one is saying,

39:24

we're gonna keep the facility open for years.

39:25

So you get it down to a small core,

39:28

it makes no sense to keep them at Guantanamo

39:29

and I think that will be very clear.

39:33

I think one of the unfortunate things

39:35

that can tend to happen in the debate,

39:37

is that people go to the hardest problem

39:39

and then sorta get stuck there.

39:40

But there's an area where we can make a lot of progress,

39:44

which is moving all of those who can be transferred.

39:47

And I think when it gets down to a small core then,

39:50

it will be clear that it's a very manageable issue.

39:53

Interviewer

And you'll convince,

39:57

or the administration will convince Congress members

39:59

that it's acceptable to let this core group

40:02

come into the U.S.?

40:04

-

Into very secured prison facilities.

40:06

Yes, I think, yes I do.

40:10

I think so, because I just think the logic

40:12

and the facts will be overwhelming,

40:15

and that it simply makes no sense to keep them

40:17

in the Guantanamo detention facility at that point.

40:19

Interviewer

I don't think you'll answer

40:22

this question either, but have you had conversations

40:23

with Congress members who are opposed to that

40:26

who've said maybe they'll be convinced otherwise

40:29

once you get that number down?

40:32

-

Well I will say this,

40:34

that in, I spent a lot of time on Capitol Hill

40:36

in late 2013, working on the legislation

40:39

to remove the unnecessary obstacles to foreign transfers.

40:46

And there were definitely members of Congress

40:49

and Senators I talked to

40:53

who previously had been

40:55

not convinced about closing Guantanamo,

40:58

who when they went through the cost figures,

41:01

they were outraged by the cost of Guantanamo.

41:04

And they said, this makes absolutely no sense.

41:07

So there definitely were individuals in Congress

41:10

who were rethinking their approach based on the cost.

41:13

And the other thing which I think was very significant

41:19

and did not get very much attention last year

41:21

was that in the spring of 2014,

41:26

there was an amendment that was adopted unanimously

41:28

in the Senate Armed Services Committee

41:31

that would have allowed transfers to the United States

41:33

for detention and prosecution if,

41:37

and it set up a couple of procedures

41:40

and demanding procedures that,

41:44

before those transfers could take place,

41:45

the administration had to send a detailed plan

41:47

for each individual

41:49

and it also had to give Congress the opportunity

41:50

to pass a resolution of disapproval.

41:53

But the important point is that that passed unanimously.

41:55

And it's an illustration that maybe there are ways

41:58

that aren't the sort of binary choices

42:01

that people have been looking at

42:03

and building in additional procedures

42:05

where there will be a sort of common ground approach.

42:07

So I do think that it will be possible

42:12

to work with Congress on that.

42:15

But again, I think the highest priority right now

42:19

is to move forward on moving all of those

42:21

who are approved for transfer, who can be transferred.

42:24

-

Why didn't Congress,

42:28

why didn't the entire Senate vote on that?

42:30

Why just the committee?

42:32

-

Well it, the Senate Armed Services Committee legislation

42:34

never went to the floor of the Senate.

42:39

And so, and then there was an agreement

42:42

with the House on the legislation.

42:45

There was legislation that had passed the House.

42:51

So it was just the dynamics of Congress

42:54

that it never went to the floor.

42:58

Interviewer

Sounds to me like you should have stayed

43:01

and advocate on behalf of the administration with Congress.

43:02

Sounds to me like you'd be more effective

43:07

at essentially now not much is happening

43:09

at least to the public.

43:13

-

Well I think there are a lot of people,

43:14

first of all in the administration,

43:17

who are making the case to Congress.

43:19

And as I say, I am absolutely positive

43:22

that there is a lot going on in the executive branch

43:24

in terms of trying to move forward on transfers.

43:26

There's no question about that.

43:30

Interviewer

Are you still involved?

43:31

Do they still come to you for advice

43:33

or to give some advice, especially since it's possible

43:35

some people might be resettled tomorrow

43:40

that come out of your watch, right out of your time?

43:42

-

Mm hmm.

43:45

You know, occasionally there are conversations

43:46

on a transitional basis.

43:49

But it's obviously, it's an issue

43:53

that I continue to feel strongly about.

43:55

Interviewer

So should we expect to possibly see some

43:57

future transfers because of your work?

44:00

Can you tell us that or?

44:03

-

Well, I think you will definitely see

44:05

some future transfers.

44:08

And I think, but I'll sort of leave it to others

44:11

in terms of kind of,

44:16

you know, when those are now announced

44:17

and how they are announced.

44:19

But I absolutely would expect additional transfers.

44:22

Interviewer

Is there something,

44:27

since you want to keep this short,

44:28

is there something I didn't ask you that you wanted to share

44:30

especially since this is for history

44:33

and it's important that people have a perspective

44:34

and they have perspective from so many people.

44:37

We even interviewed a few other envoys as well.

44:40

And just that something that could people understand

44:43

why it's been so difficult to close Guantanamo.

44:46

And if in fact we are moving forward after six years

44:50

and perhaps some of the thoughts that I haven't asked you

44:54

that you're wanting to share with us.

44:56

-

Well I would just say that,

44:59

that I think it is very, very important to move forward.

45:02

It's very important to close the facility

45:06

for a wide variety of reasons,

45:08

including the fact that it actually

45:11

undermines our national security.

45:13

I think it's very important for people to realize

45:15

that there's been a consensus of that

45:18

among people who were involved in the issue

45:20

in the past administration

45:22

as well as in this administration.

45:23

And I also think that while it's a difficult issue

45:25

and there's, you know, there are many considerations,

45:29

it absolutely is possible to move forward.

45:33

And I think that

45:36

what sometimes happens is that people think,

45:37

well, it's such a difficult issue, one can't do anything.

45:39

And in my experience, that's just absolutely wrong.

45:43

Progress can be made, it should be made.

45:47

You've got people who've been there for 12 or 13 years

45:50

who have been approved for transfer

45:53

for almost half of the time of their incarceration.

45:55

And it is just absolutely imperative

45:59

that we move forward as promptly as we can.

46:02

Interviewer

You know, I'm sorry,

46:04

I'm just gonna ask you one more question.

46:05

As you were talking,

46:07

I was thinking with Yemen becoming a failed state,

46:07

if you will and half the detainees

46:11

left in Guantanamo are Yemeni,

46:14

how does that impact, you know, moving forward?

46:16

-

That's a very, that's a very important question,

46:21

because of the number of Yemenis

46:23

and there's a lot of misunderstanding about that.

46:27

Of the 54 who are approved for transfer,

46:31

47 of them are from Yemen.

46:33

And nobody's gonna send them back to Yemen

46:35

with the security situation in this country,

46:38

in that country at this time.

46:40

So it's very important to resettle them.

46:43

And that was something that we moved forward on

46:45

and we resettled a number of Yemenis

46:49

and nobody from Yemen had been transferred for a long time.

46:52

And so it absolutely,

46:58

if you're gonna make progress on Guantanamo

47:00

you need to move forward with those who are from Yemen.

47:02

But one point that is very, very important

47:07

is that sometimes people say,

47:10

oh everybody who's left at Guantanamo

47:12

is the worst of the worst.

47:14

And they wouldn't be there for so long

47:16

unless they were the worst of the worst.

47:17

And that could not be more wrong.

47:20

Many of those, and many of those approved for transfer,

47:22

the reason that they're stuck at Guantanamo

47:26

is because they're from Yemen

47:29

and they can't go back to their home country.

47:30

It's very, very important to resettle them

47:32

to other countries.

47:35

But it's also very important to correct this misperception

47:36

that everybody who's there somehow

47:40

is the worst of the worst.

47:42

For those from Yemen,

47:44

they're the ones with the worst luck

47:45

and that's why they're stuck there.

47:47

So the problem of Yemen, of the people from Yemen,

47:49

is central to making a lotta progress on Guantanamo.

47:52

But the situation in Yemen itself

47:57

does not materially change anything,

48:00

because we had reached the conclusion

48:02

that we needed to resettle those from Yemen

48:04

because of the security situation.

48:06

So I think that process of transferring

48:08

the Yemenis to other countries and resettling them,

48:12

the ones who are approved for transfer,

48:15

that needs to go forward full speed ahead.

48:16

But that's been the operating plan

48:19

and I would expect that to continue.

48:22

Interviewer

Who thinks, the people left

48:24

are the worst of the worst, who thinks that?

48:26

-

No, I'll let them speak for themselves.

48:28

Interviewer

Okay, but that's the impression

48:32

you get that people--

48:34

-

There are some who have said that.

48:35

There are some who have said that.

48:36

That anybody who's there is the worst of the worst

48:38

and that almost by definition,

48:43

if somebody has been held for that long

48:44

it's because they are among the very worst actors.

48:47

And that is simply flat out wrong.

48:52

And that's an illustration

48:54

of why I say it's very important to focus on the facts

48:56

and not to accept these sweeping generalizations.

48:58

So when one looks at the facts,

49:01

that simply is not the case.

49:03

Interviewer

I mean, listening to you

49:05

and I think we're just about done,

49:06

it's kind of what I was thinking before,

49:07

we need a better PR job

49:09

or the administration needs a better public relations job

49:10

with you out front perhaps,

49:13

saying all that you told us today.

49:15

'Cause I think the public is not aware of what you've said.

49:17

Or maybe they don't listen

49:20

or maybe the media isn't interested in listening.

49:21

-

Well I think a proper understanding of the facts,

49:24

an accurate understanding of the facts at Guantanamo

49:29

is very helpful to moving forward on closing the facility.

49:32

Interviewer

But, you know, well thank you.

49:37

So I think I'll ask you again,

49:39

there's nothing more.

49:41

-

I think that covers it.

49:43

Interviewer

Okay, Johnny needs to take

49:44

20 seconds of room tone--

49:46

-

Yeah, okay.

49:48

-

Before we shut off

of our taping.

49:49

-

Okay.

49:50

-

Okay.

Johnny

Okay and get room tone.

49:51

-

Okay, thank you.

50:09

-

Yep

Sloan, Cliff - Interview master file

Transcript

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Human Rights Archive

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