Holdbrooks, Terry - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

And you got the voice checks?

0:06

Man

Yeah, we're all good, we're all good.

0:07

Interviewer

Hey, good afternoon.

0:09

We are very grateful to you for participating

0:11

in the Witness to Guantanamo project.

0:14

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:16

and involvement with detainees

0:19

who were held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:20

We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity

0:23

to tell your story in your own words.

0:25

We are creating an archive of stories

0:29

so that people in America and around the world

0:31

will have a better understanding

0:34

of what you and others have observed.

0:35

Future generations must know

0:39

what happened at Guantanamo.

0:41

And by telling your story,

0:43

you are contributing to history.

0:44

We appreciate your courage

0:47

and willingness to speak to us.

0:48

If at any time during the interview

0:51

you'd like to take a break

0:52

just let us know and we can stop.

0:53

And if anything you say you'd like to retract

0:55

just let us know and we can (indistinct)

0:57

Okay, thanks so much.

1:01

-

Most definitely.

1:02

Interviewer

I'd like to just begin with

1:04

some basic information as to your name,

1:05

your hometown, your birthday age,

1:08

maybe you start with that.

1:12

-

Terry Holbrooks, Phoenix, Arizona, 7783.

1:14

Interviewer

And how old are you now?

1:18

-

26.

1:19

Interviewer

And your education?

1:20

-

Post high school,

1:27

second year, third year of college.

1:28

Interviewer

And currently you're living in?

1:30

-

Tempe, Arizona.

1:33

Interviewer

And current occupation?

1:35

-

Writer.

1:37

Interviewer

I'd like to begin with

1:43

how you became involved in Guantanamo

1:44

since we know you were in the military,

1:47

maybe you could begin by talking about

1:49

how you joined the military

1:51

and the kind of training your got

1:53

before you went to Guantanamo.

1:54

-

It's rather haphazard situation.

1:58

Joining the military was kind of a difficult process.

2:01

It took me number of months really

2:03

to get into the military about three months

2:05

and in total to get in.

2:07

First time I went saw the recruiter

2:09

so I don't think they took me seriously,

2:10

same thing with the second time.

2:11

Third time they started taking me

2:14

a little bit more seriously.

2:15

They took care of the necessary testing, etc.

2:16

I made a disastrous choice of asking, you know,

2:18

which job was giving a bonus

2:21

as opposed to taking a job I should have

2:22

and that's how I ended up

2:24

as a military police officer.

2:25

I think it was probably seven months into my military career

2:27

that they decided we were gonna be going to Guantanamo

2:31

and I was switched over

2:33

from the 252nd Military Police Company to the 463rd.

2:34

The 463rd was kind of our brother unit

2:37

was the bigger unit,

2:40

252nd was the smaller, were the garrison unit

2:41

we just took care of the base.

2:43

In any case, the 463rd was going to Guantanamo.

2:45

We had two weeks of training in Fort Dix, New Jersey

2:48

from individuals who hadn't ever been to Guantanamo

2:51

and it wasn't in a military facility,

2:53

it was just a mock prison made of mesh wire

2:55

and PVC piping,

2:58

it really wasn't a very accurate display.

3:01

Our detainees when we were training

3:03

were our fellow soldiers.

3:05

So it was kind of a very haphazard way to learn

3:07

what it's like to work in a prison situation.

3:09

Interviewer

What year was that?

3:12

-

Would have been in 2003.

3:13

Interviewer

And before that, you said for six months

3:15

what were you been trained as before you began?

3:18

-

Initially as a military police officer

3:20

and then I worked for a few months in Fort Leonard Wood.

3:22

Interviewer

And in terms of the two weeks,

3:26

that was your full training as a guard

3:29

before you were shipped off to Guantanamo?

3:30

-

Correct.

3:32

Interviewer

Did you have any sense of,

3:34

or did they tell you what kind of prisoners

3:35

you'd be working with,

3:37

kind of men these detainees were?

3:38

-

Outside of all the catchphrases we've heard,

3:40

you know, the worst of the worst

3:43

and a bunch of tile heads and dirt farmers and such.

3:44

Interviewer

Did they use those terms?

3:48

-

Correct.

3:49

Interviewer

Did they want you,

3:50

do they want a certain feeling from you

3:52

that you would not trust these men?

3:54

Do you know why they were telling you these words?

3:56

-

I would imagine that's the only reasonable explanation

3:58

is that they didn't want us to trust somebody,

4:01

they didn't want us to develop any type of friendship

4:02

or a relationship with them whatsoever.

4:04

As I've said before, prior to us leaving

4:07

we went to Ground Zero.

4:09

The day we were leaving went to Ground Zero

4:10

and I can only imagine

4:12

the purpose behind that was for propaganda.

4:13

You know, take us to the place where 911 happened

4:16

and then tell us that Islam and Muslims are the blame,

4:19

take us to Guantanamo

4:22

obviously everybody was gonna be riled up

4:23

and it's gonna be an effective means

4:25

to getting the job done.

4:27

Interviewer

The other men who were with you

4:28

as guards and women too, I assume.

4:30

-

Correct.

4:32

Interviewer

Were they riled up as you described,

4:34

did they get a sense that

4:36

it's gonna be dangerous for them

4:38

or frightening for them or for you.

4:40

How did all the people and yourself think about this?

4:42

-

I think a lot of people initially

4:44

were buying into the propaganda of it.

4:46

And fortunately by the end,

4:48

I can say maybe only half of them

4:50

were still buying into the propaganda.

4:51

I myself, as soon as we got to Ground Zero

4:54

I remember particularly reading one comment

4:56

that somebody had written on the wall,

4:58

this is a worst tragedy to happen to all of mankind.

4:59

And as I was reading this comment,

5:03

I just kind of snickered and started laughing

5:04

and you know, my company is behind me

5:06

and they look and they're like,

5:08

what are you laughing about?

5:09

This is Ground Zero, 2,700 people died here,

5:10

this is a tragedy.

5:13

I'm like, yeah, it's a tragedy,

5:14

it's not the worst one ever.

5:16

Like, what are you talking about? Yes, it is.

5:18

I'm like the Holocaust wasn't worst,

5:19

the Armenian genocide and crusades.

5:21

These things didn't matter.

5:24

2,700 people is really more and it's, yeah,

5:26

we didn't see eye to eye at that point

5:30

and that's when I really started seeing

5:31

that this obviously wasn't gonna be a fun deployment.

5:33

Interviewer

Were you nervous or worried at all

5:35

about going down to Guantanamo?

5:37

-

No, I actually had not had the opportunity

5:40

to do any research upon it.

5:41

Guantanamo wasn't making anything

5:43

in the press at that point,

5:45

this was early in 2003,

5:46

so it still wasn't a national headline

5:47

and I didn't know anything about it.

5:50

I just knew that it was a prison,

5:52

we were gonna be safe working in the prison,

5:53

they were cages, etc.

5:55

Interviewer

Did they give you an instructions

5:57

on exactly how to interact with the detainees at all?

5:59

-

Minimal.

6:02

Interviewer

Meaning?

6:03

-

As minimal interaction as possible.

6:04

Unless it's a life-threatening situation

6:07

you don't need to be talking with the detainees.

6:09

Interviewer

And then when you arrived to Guantanamo

6:12

how was that from the beginning, what happened?

6:15

When you first arrived

6:18

were you immediately put in as guards

6:19

or did that happen?

6:20

-

I believe we did approximately four days

6:22

or maybe one week on the job training.

6:24

Basically we just followed other individuals

6:27

as they were doing their job

6:29

and everything we were taught,

6:31

everything we're told to expect

6:32

as opposed to what we're seeing

6:33

during our on the job training

6:35

were completely contradicted with each other.

6:36

These individuals had already been there for a year,

6:38

they had established and developed relationships

6:40

with detainees and whatnot.

6:42

So, we were seeing practices

6:44

that were completely contradictory to what we were told.

6:45

Interviewer

Could you describe

6:48

what contradictory practices you were seeing?

6:49

-

Well, I suppose on a simplistic basis

6:53

we were told, obviously,

6:56

just don't talk with detainees,

6:57

don't have conversations with them,

6:58

don't befriend them, etc,

6:59

where we'd see these guards

7:01

who had been working there for a year

7:03

who had relationships and developed relationships

7:04

or even friendships with detainees.

7:07

They knew their stories,

7:08

they knew about their lives,

7:09

they knew them personally,

7:10

so that rule kind of went out the window real quickly.

7:12

Not talking about any type of current affairs,

7:16

what's going on in the world,

7:18

what's going on in media.

7:19

You know, we were told not to do this

7:21

whereas you'd see other guards sitting there

7:22

talking about the elections,

7:24

talking about war,

7:25

talking about what's going on in the Middle East

7:26

easily where detainees can overhear it.

7:29

So everything we were basically taught not to do

7:31

we were watching being done

7:35

by the individuals giving us our on job training.

7:36

Interviewer

Did you say anything to anybody about that

7:39

or talk to another guard about that,

7:41

the consistencies?

7:42

-

Negative, inconsistencies in the military is

7:44

kind of like peas in a pot, they go together.

7:49

Interviewer

So did you have a different impression then

7:52

as to what your role would be

7:54

once you observed this for four days?

7:56

-

I think as soon as I got there the very first day

7:59

I had a different impression

8:00

about what it was gonna be.

8:02

I was expecting a bunch of individuals

8:03

who didn't speak English,

8:04

and were gonna be very aggressive and confrontational

8:05

and there was a number of them that obviously

8:07

the first day that did speak English,

8:09

that welcomed us,

8:11

they were happy to see us

8:12

and I couldn't for life of me imagine,

8:13

why would you be happy to see new guards arriving?

8:15

But evidently the individuals who were leaving

8:17

weren't necessarily the best people.

8:19

So they were happy to see us,

8:21

they would clap and speak and talk

8:23

and really quite quickly

8:25

the gap between the East and the West

8:27

was kind of disappearing between us

8:29

as I was realizing, you know,

8:31

these individuals maybe listen

8:32

to some of the same music that I do

8:34

or they watch the same movies.

8:35

You know, we speak the same language,

8:37

we're really not all that different.

8:39

So, I don't understand why everything with the military

8:40

has told me not equaling up here.

8:43

Interviewer

So the detainees

8:46

would actually reach out to you

8:47

and right away say hello to you

8:49

when you first started working there?

8:52

-

There were some, it's a small population

8:52

but there were some that were initially

8:55

they were very outspoken

8:56

and willing to interact with us, yes.

8:58

Interviewer

Did you receive any hostility

9:01

from some of the detainees?

9:02

-

Negative, not initially, negative.

9:04

Interviewer

And could you describe then

9:08

what your day was like working as a guard.

9:11

-

That would depend upon the shift that you were working,

9:17

that would depend upon

9:18

which position you were working, etc.

9:19

You could be working with the guards,

9:22

you could be working as a transport,

9:23

you could be working with Camp Four,

9:25

you can be working with sally port,

9:28

these are all different places within the camp

9:30

that you could be working,

9:32

Camp Four obviously is a minimum security camp,

9:33

has different rules and procedures and whatnot.

9:35

Working as a guard...

9:38

Interviewer

Can we go through this?

9:39

-

Camp Four was where I initially started.

9:42

I worked there for two months

9:43

and I pretty much set my tempo for Guantanamo.

9:44

With Camp Four it's 10 detainees and one guard

9:48

and there's not a cage separating

9:51

and you interact with them directly.

9:52

So I wasn't expecting hostility

9:54

when I moved over to the rest of the camps, you know,

9:57

I wasn't expecting anything to be difficult.

9:59

I would sit and play chess and talk

10:02

and interact with these people

10:04

and hear their stories in their lives

10:05

and it was a very kind of relaxed,

10:07

you would think of it as like

10:10

a white collar prison in America.

10:11

This is what Camp Four was like,

10:13

obviously that wasn't the case

10:16

with the rest of Camp Delta

10:17

as I'm sure the media has

10:18

put us both on the same page with that.

10:21

Camps one, two, and three were distinctly different.

10:23

Their security levels,

10:25

there was a lot more aggression on both sides.

10:27

If you were working the blocks in camp one, two, and three

10:32

your primary duty was walking up and down the block each day

10:35

taking individuals to and from recreation,

10:38

taking them to and from their shower

10:40

and issuing meals, cleaning the block,

10:42

taking care of trash, etc.

10:45

Sally port was working any of the ports

10:48

between the camps, between the camp itself

10:51

and the main entrance to the facility,

10:53

it is what it sounds like,

10:56

it's a sally port, it's a gate.

10:57

And then transport was taking individuals

10:59

to and from interrogation.

11:01

Interviewer

Going back to Camp Four

11:03

did all the men speak English

11:05

that you could play chess with them

11:07

and hang out with them?

11:08

Would you describe that.

11:09

-

Not all of them spoke English,

11:10

but a good number of them were willing

11:11

to make the effort to try to speak English

11:13

or to learn English.

11:15

At the same point in time

11:16

I was trying to learn just the base words

11:17

I would need to know.

11:18

If an individual didn't understand English at all

11:20

and I needed to tell them to do something,

11:22

I tried to learn at least some of the words in Arabic

11:23

so that way I could explain to them, you know,

11:25

time for shower, time for recreation,

11:27

I need you to step back, time to eat, etc.

11:30

Interviewer

So what were you thinking

11:34

during those two weeks working at Camp Four?

11:35

What was your impressions for two months at Camp Four?

11:38

What was your impressions during those two months?

11:41

-

That everything I was told to expect

11:43

was absolutely untrue.

11:44

Interviewer

And did you hear stories

11:47

of the men during those two months to their lives?

11:48

Interviewer

Yeah, a good number of them,

11:51

would tell me some of their stories and whatnot

11:52

but at this point in time

11:53

the individuals who were in Camp Four,

11:55

they were in Camp Four

11:57

due to cooperation with interrogation

11:58

or they were supposed to be going home soon,

12:02

one of the two.

12:03

So these individuals,

12:05

they didn't necessarily have the most exciting lives

12:06

or anything as far as media would be concerned,

12:09

perhaps they were just truly individuals

12:12

who were caught in a wrong place at the wrong time,

12:13

we had realized that early on we're sending them home.

12:15

So it wasn't so much of a story

12:18

and a development with them.

12:20

They'd had pretty normal lives,

12:22

you know, grew up, went to school,

12:23

developed a profession, wrong place, wrong time,

12:25

I got arrested and now I'm here.

12:28

Interviewer

And when you were moved to camps,

12:31

which camp do you move to next?

12:33

-

Camps one, two and three.

12:35

Interviewer

One guard would go

12:37

to all three camps at the same time?

12:38

-

Negative, a unit has a certain number of individuals

12:40

who were sent for special tasks

12:43

such as Camp Four, or Camp Echo

12:44

and then the rest of the unit

12:46

is working camps one, two, and three.

12:48

Interviewer

And so could you describe

12:50

what it was like working in camps one, two and three.

12:51

-

Hellish at a minimum,

12:54

it's completely different environment,

12:59

it's hot, it's hostile.

13:00

You have to deal with a lot more problems,

13:03

you got frustrated detainees

13:04

who are going through, you know,

13:06

awful interrogation sessions or whatnot

13:07

and they're coming back onto the block

13:10

and they have nobody to take their anger out on.

13:11

You've got individuals who go through sleep deprivation

13:14

who are being moved around every two or three hours

13:16

or having to reestablish their life so to say

13:19

every two or three hours,

13:21

so they're getting angry and frustrated about that.

13:22

You got a good level of harassment,

13:25

just between the interrogators and detainees

13:27

that the guards would be dealing with.

13:30

And then you have the guards themselves,

13:32

some of them harassing the detainees,

13:34

detainees harassing guards,

13:35

it was just a different atmosphere altogether.

13:38

Interviewer

Can you describe exactly

13:42

how that worked for you?

13:44

On one day, what would you be doing working there

13:47

with these detainees

13:50

if they were hostile to you,

13:51

if they were friendly to you,

13:52

what was your reaction?

13:54

-

Somehow for the hostility factor

13:55

I really look pulled the two out of 10

13:58

the entire time that I was there.

13:59

I just never really seemed to rile up detainees.

14:01

An average day working on the block,

14:05

you know, if we'd show up for the day shift,

14:06

we would get there just before foster prayer,

14:09

they would have foster prayer,

14:11

we would serve breakfast.

14:12

We'd collect breakfast,

14:14

take them to and from the showers,

14:15

to and from recreation,

14:16

Dhuhr prayer would come, afternoon prayer,

14:18

by the time Asr prayer came

14:21

which was the afternoon prayer we'd be leaving

14:22

and the next shift would be coming on.

14:24

With that shift, you would start with Asr prayer.

14:26

They would have their prayer,

14:30

you'd serve them dinner,

14:31

finish up any recreation and showers

14:32

that weren't taken care of in the first shift,

14:34

you'd serve them, you'd collect dinner

14:37

then we'd have Maghrib prayer and Isha prayer

14:39

and then, we had two or three hours of downtime

14:42

before the night shift show up.

14:44

Interviewer

When you walk into the showers

14:47

or when you otherwise interacted with them

14:48

were you ever afraid

14:51

if it was such a different population

14:52

from the compliant group in Camp Four?

14:53

-

Not really,

14:57

maybe it's just a logical standpoint

14:59

but I sort of looked at it and realized,

15:01

you're in a cage,

15:03

you're in a cage within a bigger cage, the block.

15:04

The bigger cage is within a cage,

15:08

that cage is connected to the sally port

15:10

which is another cage

15:12

that's within the cage of the camp,

15:13

that's within a cage of the entire camps together,

15:14

that's within a cage of Guantanamo as the area.

15:18

So I've got six or seven different cages

15:21

for you to go through if you're gonna try to escape,

15:25

there's really no need to be concerned,

15:27

there's nothing to be worried about.

15:28

Quite honestly, I got very tired

15:31

of the shackling process and everything else,

15:32

whenever a detainee was to leave their cell

15:34

was supposed to shackled their hands,

15:36

their feet, around their waist

15:38

and two guards are supposed to be present.

15:39

This kind of seemed like a little bit of an overkill

15:41

especially with all of the explanation

15:43

of the cages I just went through.

15:45

I didn't really see the point in it.

15:47

It just took up a lot of time, became a hassle.

15:48

Probably within my, I think, third or fourth month

15:51

about December timeframe

15:54

of working the regular blocks,

15:56

I just said no more shackling.

15:59

If I had to take a detainee to recreation

16:01

and take him to the shower,

16:02

I'd open a cell and say, hey, let's go.

16:04

And I think a lot of them respected me

16:07

or respected that I was willing to give them that trust,

16:09

instead of bothering with the shackling

16:13

and everything else, I would say,

16:14

hey, you're an adult, let's go

16:15

and they appreciated that.

16:17

So likewise, they would show me appreciation and respect.

16:19

Interviewer

Wasn't there an another guard

16:22

or a supervisor who's observed this

16:24

and would they allow you to do this

16:26

without shackling them in.

16:28

-

Yeah, there were very few of my chain of command

16:29

that actually took a hands-on role

16:33

and the day-to-day operations.

16:35

The majority of them were responsible

16:36

for the logistics and the operations

16:38

but they weren't taking part in the operations.

16:41

They were just supervising and seeing to it.

16:43

So when it came down to something like that, no,

16:46

I can only really think of two guards

16:49

or two supervisors rather

16:50

that ever had an issue

16:52

with the way that I would operate.

16:53

And obviously I would just change my operations

16:55

when I was working with them

16:57

as opposed to breaking with others.

16:58

-

So you had the freedom to

17:00

not shackle them in if you chose not to.

17:02

And what other freedoms did you have with them

17:04

that supervisors didn't know about

17:08

or didn't seem to care about?

17:09

-

Well, obviously talking with detainees, you know,

17:12

I spent a good amount of my time talking with detainees.

17:13

If I was ever gonna have an intelligent conversation

17:16

was with the detainee.

17:18

So, learning about their lives,

17:20

learning about where they came from,

17:22

what society and education and religion

17:23

was like to the rest of the world,

17:25

how often are you gonna be in a place

17:27

where you can meet people

17:28

from 40 some odd different countries?

17:29

It was just something I wasn't gonna pass up.

17:31

I had to take use of the opportunity.

17:35

So I enjoyed a great deal of conversation,

17:37

which evidently we weren't supposed to do,

17:39

it's actually in the SOP,

17:41

the standard operating procedures.

17:43

We're not supposed to talk with detainees,

17:45

broke that rule a number of times.

17:48

Interviewer

And nobody ever in supervising you

17:49

told you not to talk to the detainees?

17:52

-

No, there were individuals that told me not to,

17:55

but it really wasn't something

17:56

that they were willing to pursue.

17:57

A lot of my leadership had a bit of an alcohol issue

17:59

and really didn't care about what they were doing there,

18:02

they kind of looked at it

18:04

as a year long vacation in the Bahamas.

18:05

So with that being said

18:07

as long as the work was getting done

18:09

they didn't care how it was getting done,

18:11

they just wanted it to get done.

18:12

And something I've always been very successful at

18:14

is getting work done quickly and effectively on time.

18:17

Interviewer

Did other guards also talk to detainees?

18:20

-

Not that many.

18:23

Strangely enough,

18:25

the individuals who worked in Camp Echo,

18:26

they talked with detainees a lot more

18:28

because it would be a one-on-one situation.

18:29

So I can understand why they talked with them

18:32

more often than the rest of us.

18:34

And as I said, a good deal

18:36

of the population that I went down there with

18:37

really believed in the propaganda

18:39

and was wrapped up in the hatred

18:41

and the anger and everything else of 911

18:42

and blaming Islam, blaming the Muslims

18:45

and believing what we were told by the military.

18:47

So with all of that being taken into consideration

18:50

I can understand what not many people took advantage

18:52

of the opportunity, or even had an interest

18:54

in talking with the detainees.

18:57

Interviewer

Could you describe Camp Echo

18:59

as separate from Camp Four?

19:00

-

Correct, Camp Echo is just slightly to the right,

19:02

it's about a quarter mile away from Camp Four.

19:05

Interviewer

And what kind of detainees

19:07

will be at Camp Echo?

19:09

-

That would be the maximum security individuals,

19:10

high interest or high intel.

19:12

Interviewer

Did you ever work there?

19:15

-

Negative, negative.

19:16

My roommate, who I still stay in touch with,

19:18

my roommate when I was in the military

19:20

he worked there, but we had different shifts.

19:21

We were working eight hour shifts

19:24

whereas he was working 12 hour shifts.

19:25

We're working as teams

19:27

versus he was working one-on-one.

19:28

Interviewer

Did he tell you stories

19:32

about his experiences in Camp Echo?

19:33

-

Not so much.

19:37

It's something he hasn't ever really opened up about.

19:38

I know that he still has a great deal

19:40

of a trauma or grief so to say

19:41

with what he had to do in Camp Echo

19:44

and the effects that it's had on him.

19:46

Interviewer

How did other guys relate to you

19:49

if they saw you talking to detainees

19:51

and the way you describe it

19:53

perhaps even befriending the detainees.

19:55

How did other guys react to that?

19:57

Did they had a different opinion about the detainees?

19:58

-

I'd be a liar if I said

20:03

there wasn't some aggression or hostility

20:04

or perhaps a hazing process that took place.

20:07

There was certainly an uncomfortable six months down there

20:10

between myself and my fellow workers.

20:13

Towards the end it really just became a matter that

20:15

we're getting ready to go home soon,

20:18

we don't care what Holdbrook's is doing,

20:20

he's okay, don't worry about it.

20:22

So I was fortunate

20:24

when I finally got down to that point,

20:26

no point in time was I ever a sympathizer

20:27

or individual who were concerned myself

20:29

of aligning with the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

20:32

I've never outspoken

20:34

or even felt feelings that terrorism

20:36

in any way, shape or form is acceptable.

20:39

But at the same point in time

20:42

I do feel the individuals that

20:43

we should at least give the credit here in the story,

20:45

at least give them the credit of defending themselves.

20:48

And every time that I did that, you know,

20:49

I could never find a reason to be angry with somebody.

20:52

Obviously, they're gonna tell you

20:55

what they want you to hear

20:56

and I'm sure there's guilty people down there

20:57

but the guilty people once,

20:59

I can assume they're probably the ones

21:01

who didn't bother talking with me

21:02

because there were some, they had anger with me

21:04

and they had anger towards the guards period

21:07

and no matter what my reputation as the guard was

21:09

they just didn't wanna speak,

21:11

they didn't wanna talk,

21:13

they were always hostile.

21:14

And I can imagine they were probably the ones

21:14

who were guilty of something.

21:17

Interviewer

And how did the guards,

21:19

the other guards hazy or tricky said that

21:20

there was some harm?

21:23

-

Yeah, there was a number of verbal confrontations

21:25

really not worth getting into the specifics of it

21:28

but there's a number of verbal confrontations,

21:29

a couple of physical altercations as well

21:31

with my leadership as well as with my peers.

21:33

But, it's all kind of water under the bridge.

21:38

It's sort of something to be expected

21:42

in an environment what was going on

21:43

in hindsight I understand why it happened

21:45

and that it was just irrational fear,

21:47

but it's being provoked by the propaganda,

21:49

what we're dealing with, so I understand.

21:52

Interviewer

Did you see any of the detainees mistreated

21:56

while you were there?

22:01

-

Yeah, a number of times seeing a detainee

22:03

having their hand stepped on

22:07

or their head stepped on

22:08

or kicked or extra kicks or punches

22:09

being thrown in during an ERF,

22:12

perhaps having their head pushed in the toilet

22:15

and having it flush number of times,

22:16

walking through the interrogation,

22:19

we'd be taking individuals to interrogation

22:21

you'd see what was going on in other interrogation rooms.

22:23

So, occasionally I'd see individuals in stress positions

22:25

or rooms with the air conditioner set to 40 degrees

22:29

or individuals would soil themselves

22:32

from being these positions for so long.

22:33

Our lieutenants who were in charge of camp operations

22:36

whenever an ERF would take place,

22:40

they were responsible with coming out,

22:42

trying to talk the situation down.

22:43

And if it came down that an ERF was gonna happen

22:45

they would initially spray OC spray into the cell.

22:48

We were taught and what was trained to us

22:51

was to just make a simple S or a Z shape motion

22:54

across the face with the OC spray.

22:56

I can't think of how many times I saw

23:00

an entire can used, if not two cans used,

23:02

it was really just an overkill

23:05

and an afterwards you got five angry men running in there

23:08

and slamming you down, beating you up,

23:10

making it difficult for you to breathe,

23:12

putting in kicks and punches

23:14

using your head to open the door, etc.

23:16

Yeah, there was certainly abuse that took place.

23:18

Interviewer

Do you know why that abuse took place,

23:21

was there reasons for it?

23:23

-

As primitive of an idea as I can possibly think of

23:27

it was really just Americans feeling

23:29

that they were getting one back for America.

23:30

A lot of these soldiers really believed

23:33

that these people responsible for 911,

23:35

I don't know how,

23:37

individuals responsible for 911

23:38

pretty much burned up and in an inferno that day

23:40

but in any case,

23:43

they went down there with these views

23:45

and these feelings and this animosity and anger

23:46

and this was a very non-constructive way

23:48

for them to get it out

23:52

but that's how they chose to get it out,

23:53

that recreational drinking.

23:55

Interviewer

When you saw detainees head put in a toilet

23:58

was that an ERF situation or was it?

24:02

-

Yes during ERF situations.

24:05

A lot of the abuse that I speak about

24:06

was during ERF situation.

24:08

I never really saw a guard just open up a door

24:09

and start beating up a detainee.

24:12

I never saw anything like that

24:14

but I saw a great unnecessary amount of force used

24:16

during ERF situations

24:20

during any type of right control, etc.

24:21

There was times when we would,

24:23

we were searching cells

24:26

and a detainee wouldn't allow us to search his cell.

24:27

Then a couple of guards might go in, not an ERF

24:30

but a couple of guards might go in

24:32

and be unnecessarily rough at that point in time as well.

24:34

Interviewer

Were you ever participating

24:38

in an ERF situation?

24:39

-

Successfully I managed to go the entire year

24:42

ducking out of every ERF.

24:44

Interviewer

How did that happen?

24:45

-

I took my time getting ready.

24:47

There was always somebody who was willing to go.

24:50

A couple of our overweight resident alcoholics,

24:52

who were good old boys so to say.

24:57

The only time I'd ever seen them run quickly

25:01

is when an ERF would get called over the radio,

25:03

you better believe, they were running fast

25:05

and getting that gear on and they would be ready.

25:07

Interviewer

Could you describe exactly

25:09

how that worked,

25:11

that operation worked when you said

25:12

an ERF is called over the radio?

25:13

-

If a platoon sergeant or camp sergeant dictated

25:14

that an ERF was gonna take place

25:17

then it would be a simple call

25:19

would take place over the radio.

25:20

All the block sergeants,

25:21

which would be one sergeant per block would have a radio

25:23

and they would hear an ERF would be called.

25:26

They would announce that there was going to be an ERF

25:28

and if you were on the ERF team

25:30

your job was to respond within,

25:31

X amount of minutes, getting your gear on

25:33

and being outside and staged and ready.

25:35

I would always successfully walk

25:38

to the other end of the block

25:40

as far away from the radio as possible

25:41

and make it difficult for them to relay the message to me.

25:43

And then I would take my time getting out,

25:46

take my time getting my gear on

25:47

and by that point, five, six, 10 people

25:49

had lined up and were ready.

25:52

Interviewer

When you say ERF team

25:54

is every guard on the ERF team or?

25:56

-

Negative, there was 10 appointed per day,

25:58

sometimes five but there's five to 10,

26:00

depending upon whether we felt

26:03

it was gonna be necessary to have one team

26:04

or two teams ready.

26:06

With a day shift we would have two,

26:08

with an evening shift we would have one

26:09

and with a night shift we would have one.

26:11

Interviewer

Were they guards

26:13

or were there other men as well or women as well?

26:14

-

Nah, we were all guards.

26:16

It was all composed of the MPs

26:17

who were normally working in the block.

26:18

Interviewer

And there were some people

26:22

who you felt would always tried to be

26:24

on the move if at all possible?

26:27

-

Most definitely.

26:29

Interviewer

And who got to spray?

26:30

Is that also...

26:32

-

That was the lieutenant's responsibilities,

26:33

lieutenant or sergeant first-class or above.

26:36

So basically platoon sergeants and lieutenants.

26:39

Interviewer

And were doctors present

26:42

during these ERF teams?

26:43

-

Negative, they'd be called afterwards.

26:44

Interviewer

Afterwards meaning when?

26:47

-

15, maybe 20 minutes after.

26:50

Interviewer

After someone was beaten,

26:52

is that what you mean by after?

26:53

-

Correct, correct.

26:54

Interviewer

And why would they come at that point?

26:55

-

Generally to clean up,

26:58

to take care of any type of injuries

26:59

that might have taken place,

27:00

to wash off the OC spray, to dress any wounds

27:01

and then to escort the detainee back to their cell.

27:05

Interviewer

Did psychologist appear

27:09

with ERF teams as well?

27:11

-

Negative, ERF teams were pretty much just five guards

27:13

and the camp supervisor.

27:16

We had one individual from DOC,

27:19

Department of Corrections basically

27:23

just the operations of the camp.

27:25

You know, these individuals oversaw

27:27

who was moving to where, who was on what block

27:29

who was an interrogation, etc.

27:31

They were in charge of all movement.

27:32

One individual from there

27:36

would come up with a video camera

27:37

to video cam the process,

27:38

obviously for liability purposes.

27:40

I can't tell you how many times, you know,

27:42

forgot to put a tape in

27:44

or forgot to hit the record button

27:45

or I hit the record button and there was a tape in

27:47

but I forgot to take the cap off.

27:49

Interviewer

You, personally you're saying.

27:51

-

No, no, no, these were the excuses

27:52

that were given as to why the footage wasn't obtained.

27:55

Interviewer

Why do you think they didn't film the ERF?

27:57

-

I would imagine they were probably told

27:59

by somebody in their command not to film it,

28:01

or if perhaps it was too violent of a situation

28:04

or something we didn't wanna have evidence of

28:08

then, you know, make this disappear.

28:09

I wouldn't imagine that that would be a far-fetched idea.

28:12

Interviewer

Did you ever see a detainee taken to

28:15

another cell block at the end of the year

28:19

as opposed to being brought back to their cell?

28:21

-

No, not usually.

28:23

Usually they'd be taken to the recreation yard,

28:25

their beard and their hair would be shaved,

28:28

that was easiest method of cleaning up the OC spray

28:29

and then their face would be washed

28:32

and they'd be put back on their cell.

28:34

It was a rarity that anybody

28:36

would ever be taken to another block.

28:37

And that would usually be under extreme circumstances

28:38

where they would be moved when isolation block.

28:41

Interviewer

Did you ever see anyone so badly injured

28:44

that he was taken to the medical clinic

28:46

instead of back to the cell?

28:49

-

Not from an ERF, no.

28:50

Interviewer

I had heard a story

28:54

of one American soldier who practiced,

28:55

who agreed to be ERF just for a practice,

28:59

did you ever hear that story?

29:02

-

I believe I know where you're going with it,

29:04

and he ended up severely hurt.

29:04

I think that was before that I arrived, before my arrival.

29:08

I'm pretty sure that was back in x-ray days.

29:12

Interviewer

You had heard that story.

29:15

-

Correct.

29:16

Interviewer

And did any of the men or women,

29:18

were the women on the ERF teams too?

29:20

-

If they wanted to volunteer, yes.

29:23

We only had, I think four women in my unit,

29:25

it wasn't really,

29:30

out of 120 soldiers there was only four women, so.

29:31

Interviewer

Who were guards?

29:34

-

Correct.

29:35

Interviewer

And they had the option to volunteer

29:37

and not be on the ERF team because they were women or?

29:39

-

Correct, that was the scapegoat

29:42

of an excuse they were given.

29:45

You know, you're a woman,

29:46

if you don't wanna do this is just fine.

29:47

Interviewer

Could you give any sense

29:49

on how the women handled being guards?

29:50

-

Obviously they had a little bit

29:54

of a different situation to deal with,

29:55

the occasional sexual advancement or sexual harassment

29:58

among the half of a detainee,

30:01

they would have to deal with that on occasion

30:03

but more so it was more of the common problem

30:06

was interrogation of cells,

30:10

interrogation of prisoners,

30:11

pat downs over prisoner.

30:13

Obviously in Islamic culture,

30:16

men touching women, women touching men, vice versa,

30:18

it's not supposed to happen outside of marriage, family,

30:21

you know, acceptable means.

30:24

So for a woman to come into your cell and pat you down,

30:26

and pat on your belongings,

30:29

this was something that was seen as very demeaning

30:30

and kind of crossing the line.

30:33

So that would create a lot of issues for them as well.

30:35

There was a lot of things

30:38

that they weren't really able to do within the camp.

30:38

Interviewer

Like that?

30:42

-

Correct, correct.

A lot of the day-to-day operations

30:43

they weren't really able to take part in.

30:45

Escorting detainees to and from places

30:47

they weren't allowed to do

30:49

because detainees didn't want them touching them.

30:50

So that created an issue.

30:52

More often than not what they would be doing,

30:54

they had specialty jobs,

30:57

working in DOC, working in working in the JIF

30:59

or finding somewhere else to work on the base

31:02

or other jobs that needed to be taken care of.

31:05

You know, there was food, there were supplies,

31:07

there was everything else that had to be taken care of

31:09

and addressed by somebody.

31:11

So the women knew

31:12

sometimes had special placements due to that.

31:14

Interviewer

Did you ever see the military use of women

31:16

in order to harass a detainee

31:18

because they knew the he would be uncomfortable

31:20

with the woman's presence or touching him?

31:22

-

I can't say that I directly saw that, no,

31:26

I know it took place, but I didn't see that.

31:28

Interviewer

Did you ever see anybody refuse to eat,

31:33

go on a hunger strike.

31:37

-

This was a common occurrence.

31:38

Interviewer

Could you describe (indistinct)

31:40

-

There's really not much to describe.

31:42

I don't know why people

31:44

actually makes a big deal about this.

31:44

For two weeks, three weeks at a time

31:48

maybe a detainee or a group of detainees

31:49

would decide they didn't wanna eat, you know,

31:51

and when this would happen

31:53

it was just something that we noted,

31:54

jotted it down in daily calendar

31:56

about what was going on and it was fine.

31:57

The force-feeding process

32:00

that actually didn't come up until after I had left.

32:02

I guess suppose the convictions

32:04

towards this hunger strikes started getting serious

32:07

and then individuals were really starting

32:09

to starve themselves.

32:11

So I can understand why the force feeding

32:12

would be necessary.

32:14

I have two view feelings about that.

32:18

There's the side of me that says, you know,

32:21

the force feeding while that that's awful,

32:25

that situations would counter that degree

32:27

and it's horrible that would be done to somebody.

32:29

I can imagine being a very difficult

32:31

and painful procedure with how the military would do it,

32:34

at the same point in time

32:36

we're forcing somebody eat,

32:38

we're forcing them to stay alive,

32:39

we're forcing them to be nourished.

32:40

So I really don't see

32:42

what's such a great big deal about it

32:43

if they're starving themselves.

32:44

It's one of the situations obviously

32:46

where you're gonna have two different feelings

32:48

and I very much fall down the middle with that path.

32:49

I don't know really where I feel with it,

32:52

it's just, it's mixed, but in any case

32:55

hunger strikes had happened for two or three weeks

32:58

generally over an incident such as

33:00

a Koran being disrespected or detainee disrespected

33:01

or having a horrible time in interrogation.

33:04

And it would generally be just number of detainees.

33:07

It wasn't something that was a, you know,

33:08

entire mass camp demonstration.

33:11

A lot of the things

33:14

that have really made the press that made the media

33:15

happened after I had left.

33:16

I was there for the transitional period

33:19

between Camp X-ray to Camp Delta.

33:20

Camp Delta was just getting settled in

33:23

and getting into full swing,

33:25

just finishing getting built when I was there.

33:26

And then I had started construction

33:28

of Camp Five as I was leaving.

33:29

Interviewer

Can you, again, just to find exactly

33:31

the year you were there.

33:33

-

From June of 2003 to July of 2004

33:35

Interviewer

And did the men go back to eating

33:39

after two or three, you know,

33:44

you said 10 to 12 days, two weeks or so

33:46

is they just on their own chose to go eat again,

33:48

that's why there was no forced feeding

33:50

when you were there.

33:51

-

Right they would go back to eating, you know,

33:52

just, hey really starting to get hungry now,

33:54

it's been three weeks,

33:57

we're not getting anything resolved,

33:58

why don't we eat?

34:00

Interviewer

Did you see someone ever misuse,

34:01

an American soldier ever misuse a Koran

34:04

causing a hunger strike? Did you ever see?

34:06

-

There were a few times I saw it intentionally

34:08

and a few times I saw unintentionally.

34:10

What I mean by unintentionally is

34:12

a particular soldier,

34:14

he was a friend of mine,

34:16

I know that this was an accident.

34:17

He was searching the cell

34:19

he set the Koran down and made a wrong turn,

34:20

made a wrong movement and knocked the Koran over

34:24

and it fell into the ground,

34:27

this created an upset and uproar.

34:29

Another time the same situation happened

34:30

but it fell into the toilet

34:32

and this created an uproar.

34:33

I know that these were mistakes

34:36

and on the same token

34:37

I know there's other individuals

34:38

that intentionally threw it down

34:39

or they stepped on it

34:41

or they threw it in a toilet intentionally.

34:42

So yes, on both sides about it, I'd seen it happen.

34:44

Interviewer

I had heard that

34:49

some of the detainees had pet names.

34:50

Is that true and what kinds of names

34:53

were they given and why?

34:55

-

I suppose most notably

34:59

it would be the professor and the general.

35:00

The professor being Shaker Aamer

35:02

who was still down there.

35:06

It's unfortunate, he's still down there.

35:08

He's been cleared for quite some time, but nonetheless

35:09

he was called the professor

35:14

just due to his intelligence, his interaction,

35:15

how he'd interact with other detainees,

35:18

how he'd interact with the guards.

35:20

He was kind of a problem solver,

35:22

but he would find solutions,

35:24

not so much as he was a problem solver like negotiating,

35:26

he'd find solutions to problems.

35:28

He was very crafty individual,

35:31

he would figure out ways to pass notes and whatnot.

35:33

he just did all kinds of neat and interesting things.

35:38

It takes some recollection

35:42

to remember everything that he did,

35:43

but he was just a very interesting individual,

35:44

very intelligent individual.

35:46

The general, Ahmed Errachidi

35:49

we called him the general because he had the reputation

35:50

and the ability to walk onto a block and to start a riot

35:53

or to walk onto a block that was rioting and stop it.

35:57

And he could do it with just a sentence.

36:00

And he was quite a very powerful

36:02

and influential individual within the camp.

36:04

There was a wigger individual who we called the artist

36:07

and we call them the artists because

36:10

every cell that he was in was always covered in art.

36:11

He would take a sandal and turn it into this marker

36:14

and draw all over his cell.

36:17

I remember the first time I saw it walking by a cell

36:19

and got about five feet afterwards,

36:22

wait a second, that didn't look right.

36:25

Backtrack and I look and I'm like, wow,

36:28

your cell is covered in pictures.

36:31

You've got a grenades

36:32

and AK-47 and flags and eagles

36:34

and birds and buildings

36:38

and then family and everything else.

36:39

This is really quite amazing.

36:42

How long has it been like this?

36:43

"Four days," Really four days,

36:45

nobody else has noticed this

36:49

or said anything about this?

36:51

Kind of really got me thinking about

36:53

who I'm working with four days

36:54

he had been drawing in his cell and nobody has seen this.

36:56

Interviewer

Did they erase it after they saw?

36:59

-

Eventually yes, they made him erase it

37:01

and then moved him to a different cell

37:03

and still get him new shoes,

37:04

so he just did it again and again.

37:06

Interviewer

Do you know who the wigger was?

37:08

-

Unfortunately, no,

37:10

I don't recall his name at this point in time.

37:11

I could probably google it or go to cageversus.com

37:12

and find them on there and be able to tell you

37:15

but at this point in time no, the name eludes me.

37:17

Interviewer

And these are names

37:21

that the guards created for these men?

37:22

-

Correct, correct.

37:24

Interviewer

Are there any other names that you recall

37:25

-

The Tipton trio, but that was just simply, you know,

37:28

due to where they were from

37:31

and the three of them always being together,

37:32

the Tipton trio,

37:34

so that was just sort of a name out of convenience.

37:35

There was a martial artist who was down there,

37:39

some of us called him the Kung Fu master

37:44

others called him the boxer

37:46

but nonetheless, we had names like that.

37:47

There was a African man

37:50

from the United Kingdom who was a boxer

37:52

and everybody called him Mohammad Ali.

37:55

I suppose it was just easier ways

38:00

for the guards to be able to identify the detainees

38:02

without memorizing the names,

38:04

given that there's probably 50 Ahmed's and 50 Mustafa's

38:06

and every other proper name in Islam,

38:11

it was just probably 50, 25 of each in Guantanamo,

38:14

it's kind of hard to keep track of all the names.

38:18

So creating the pet name was sort of the system

38:19

that allowed the guards to be able to keep track

38:22

of other detainees.

38:24

Interviewer

My understanding was that

38:27

the detainees were called by numbers,

38:29

were they actually called by names

38:30

and did you call the men by names?

38:32

-

If you did want a intimate relationships

38:33

sort of like that

38:36

then you you've got to address them by names.

38:37

I address some of them by names.

38:39

Others I just, you know,

38:40

hey boss, hey bud, hey dude, hey guy.

38:43

The whole number system,

38:47

it was kind of unnecessary,

38:49

it just really seem like a great difficulty.

38:50

One, you had to find their ID band

38:52

to find their number

38:53

or you had to have roster with you

38:55

who was in which cell.

38:56

And it just, I don't know,

38:58

I really didn't like alienation and the lack of identity

39:01

in calling somebody just a number, you know,

39:05

at least give somebody the credit of calling them a name.

39:07

If it's the slightest thing you can do

39:10

to make their day a little bit better,

39:12

making their day better

39:14

it's gonna make your day better.

39:15

And that's how I looked at my job every day

39:16

was what can I do to just make this

39:18

as simple of a process as possible.

39:19

Maybe learning a little bit of Arabic

39:22

is gonna make this a simple process,

39:23

is gonna make things better.

39:25

Me saying good morning, me saying goodnight,

39:26

here's your meal, enjoy

39:29

as opposed to take this, eat it, shut up.

39:31

It's just simple common courtesy,

39:34

things like that that you would expect

39:36

from anywhere, from any one.

39:37

I tried to give it to the detainees and in doing so

39:40

it made my life a lot simpler down there

39:43

in regards to my interaction with them.

39:44

Interviewer

Were you instructed to call them by numbers?

39:47

How were you instructed?

39:49

-

I don't think we were instructed necessarily

39:51

to call them by anything.

39:53

I think it was just hey you

39:54

or as soon as you stood in front of a cell,

39:57

obviously you'd be beckoning attention.

39:58

If it was necessary,

40:02

then yeah you call them by a number,

40:03

but you know, there wasn't really a set rule

40:04

or procedure as to how that was supposed to take place.

40:08

I imagine that they just figured

40:11

it was an understanding that,

40:13

you know, when you stand in front of a cell

40:14

or you start opening a cell door

40:16

obviously the detainee knows

40:17

you're coming to deal with that individual.

40:18

It's only one detainee in the cell, so.

40:20

Interviewer

And how did you introduce yourself

40:23

to the detainees?

40:25

-

That's kind of a funny story.

40:27

When we first got there,

40:30

we were instructed to wear tape over our names.

40:31

We always had to cover our names with a piece of tape,

40:34

so that they didn't know who we were.

40:36

And I guess this was out of safety for us

40:39

because these individuals might get out one day

40:41

or they might know people

40:43

and they can send a message

40:45

and how do you killed there.

40:47

I don't know, the military has all kinds of crazy reasons

40:48

and theories going on down there.

40:51

After about the second week of wash my BTU's

40:54

and forgetting to take the tape off

40:56

and it's like, ah, cried, not stuck,

40:57

it was gonna be a mess

41:00

and now I gotta get a new name plate

41:01

and get that sewed on, a waste the money.

41:03

I just stopped wearing the tape, whatever

41:05

my name Holdbrooks, what's going on?

41:08

That's who I am.

41:10

The few that bothered to take my name down,

41:13

they called me Holdbrooks,

41:16

other ones, hey, guard, MB, MB.

41:18

Our unit patch looked like the Pepsi emblem

41:22

so they always called us the Pepsi people

41:24

or the Pepsi patch.

41:26

So we had a number of names ourselves

41:28

that they had given us.

41:30

So yeah, when it came to what they would call me

41:31

there was a number of different things

41:35

but they never really had a problem

41:36

getting in touch with me

41:38

and I always knew when they were acknowledging me, so.

41:39

Interviewer

And didn't you supervisor notice

41:42

that you didn't have a name tag covered?

41:44

-

They did and fortunately for me

41:46

about that same point in time

41:49

I remember my supervisors were just kind of realizing

41:50

this is ridiculous,

41:52

why are we bothering with this,

41:53

it's unnecessary procedure.

41:54

There were some that would still insist

41:57

upon wearing the tape

41:58

I think probably until near the end.

41:59

And at that point in time

42:01

what's the purpose of wearing tape

42:04

and you're gonna be sitting there

42:06

with another coworker and they're like

42:07

hey Mosley, come here and he comes up

42:08

and he's got a piece of tape over his name,

42:11

you just call him Mosley, who cares?

42:12

Why are we bothering with this?

42:16

It was really just unnecessary stuff.

42:16

Interviewer

Did you ever attend any interrogations

42:20

while you were down there?

42:23

-

I wish I could have.

42:25

That seems to be the key point

42:26

of a lot of people's interests.

42:28

No, we weren't allowed to watch interrogation,

42:29

we weren't allowed to be involved in interrogations.

42:32

We would take an individual into his interrogation

42:34

and shackle him down to the chair

42:36

and then whatever the interrogator did with him after that

42:39

until the point in time that we came and got him,

42:42

I can't say for sure.

42:45

Interviewer

Did you ever pick someone up

42:47

looking in worse condition

42:49

than when you brought him there?

42:50

-

A good number of times looking in worse condition

42:52

perhaps maybe soiled themselves,

42:54

or red spots in their skin,

42:56

maybe looking feared or tired or strained.

43:01

Yeah, there's a good number of times.

43:05

People obviously look the worst condition

43:07

when we had dropped them off

43:09

but then again with the stories

43:11

that have come out about what's happening in interrogation,

43:12

it's understandable as to why.

43:14

Interviewer

Did you ever ask the men

43:16

what happened to them?

43:17

-

I did and more often than not,

43:19

the majority of them didn't wanna talk about it.

43:20

The few times that they would talk about it,

43:23

they would just allude,

43:24

terrible things happen in interrogation

43:26

awful things, violent things, degrading things.

43:28

They would just leave it as blank statements,

43:32

even we could say all these words that I just did

43:35

but it really doesn't tell you what happened.

43:37

Oh, they abused me.

43:40

Okay, so what happened?

43:43

Oh, it's an awful story,

43:45

I don't wanna talk about it,

43:46

it's very confrontational.

43:47

Right, I understand you had

43:49

a confrontational, abusive situation,

43:50

what happened?

43:53

Oh, it was awful, it was already painful.

43:54

They give me a bunch of

43:57

dodging the bullet questions or answers.

43:59

Interviewer

How much time would pass

44:02

between the time you brought them in

44:04

and the time to pick them up.

44:06

-

Sometimes it would be,

44:08

we'd drop them off and pick them up

44:09

within two hours or within four hours,

44:11

sometimes it would be within one shift,

44:13

sometimes you would drop people off

44:15

and they wouldn't get picked up

44:16

until the next shift came on.

44:17

It really just depended upon each individual,

44:19

what's going on with their particular interrogation

44:21

I would imagine.

44:23

Some individuals weren't being interrogated at all,

44:25

they were being known as frequent flyers,

44:29

individuals who were moving

44:32

from cell to cell to cell every two or three hours.

44:33

I guess that in turn was part of their interrogation

44:36

was all the sleep deprivation involved in it

44:39

and the lack of stability in where they were staying

44:41

that was just something that was going on,

44:44

it was a psychological operation taking place, so.

44:45

Interviewer

Had you seen that?

44:49

-

Right, there was a number of people

44:51

that we escorted many times,

44:52

Ahmed Errachidi particularly,

44:54

him and Omar Khadr and a few others,

44:57

they were moved around quite often.

45:02

I think Omar was moved around quite often

45:04

just because of his young age.

45:06

He didn't really have much of a structure and a foundation.

45:08

So with his young age and having those two things

45:12

not being present in his life,

45:16

moving him around all the time,

45:18

that would just make him

45:20

as far as I could see the army looking at him,

45:21

that would make him more subject to breaking,

45:24

that would break him down and get him to talk.

45:26

So I can understand in some warped sort of way

45:28

how the army decided to operate

45:32

with some of their procedures, but.

45:33

Interviewer

Could you describe

45:36

the frequent flyer program a little bit more clearly,

45:36

exactly what used...

45:40

-

It's really quite as simple as,

45:41

if the detainee was considered

45:43

to be somebody of high knowledge

45:44

and they weren't giving up information,

45:46

we moved from around every two or three hours.

45:48

We'd get an order issued from DOC,

45:50

hey, go and move these guys.

45:54

We just moved that guy, go move and them again.

45:55

Interviewer

To another cell?

45:58

-

Correct, to another cell or to another block.

45:59

Sometimes would be from a regular block

46:02

to an isolation blocks,

46:03

sometimes would be from isolation block

46:05

to another isolation block

46:06

or back to a regular block.

46:08

There wasn't really a rhyme or reason for it.

46:09

I really think the whole purpose

46:11

was just to disable any type of foundations stability.

46:13

Interviewer

Did you ever speak to Omar Khadr.

46:17

-

A number of times.

46:20

I've spoken with the Toronto Star about him

46:22

and a couple of other groups, CBC Radio.

46:24

Really all that I have to say about Omar

46:29

he just reminds me of a young kid.

46:30

It's a lot of teenage angst,

46:34

it wasn't necessarily

46:35

that he was angry or full of animosity,

46:36

he's just, he's a teenager.

46:38

He's got a lot of energy

46:40

and a lot of energy and nowhere to channel it,

46:41

and nothing to do and a way to get it out.

46:43

Whether he's guilty

46:45

of what they claim he's guilty of, I don't know.

46:46

I don't think he killed any special forces soldiers

46:49

but he was there at the point in time.

46:52

I don't know, I probably never will know.

46:54

Interviewer

How was he treated that you saw

46:58

while he was there?

47:00

-

Interestingly enough, due to his young age,

47:02

we had a camp for younger individuals.

47:04

There was a, I think there were two 12 year olds

47:07

and a 13 year old and they were in Camp Iguana.

47:09

I don't know why Omar wasn't in that camp.

47:12

He was quite young compared to rest of the population.

47:14

I suppose he was 17 or 18

47:17

with a bunch of individuals

47:20

in their mid 20s and mid 30s.

47:21

It just seemed interesting to me

47:24

that we put him in the main campus

47:25

as opposed to with the rest of the youth,

47:26

but he was treated like an adult,

47:28

he was treated just like the rest of the detainees.

47:31

Interviewer

Did you ever visit the mental block?

47:34

Is that separate from...

47:37

-

Negative, that's Delta block.

47:38

Interviewer

Is that separate from the isolation block?

47:41

-

Yes, yes. Delta block,

47:43

it's still within the camp,

47:44

it's still within, I believe Camp Three,

47:46

yeah Camp Three would be where Delta is.

47:50

Each block obviously

47:53

had a number of sign off from the alphabet.

47:54

Mike, November and Oscar were isolation blocks.

47:56

Bravo block was predominantly Pashto speaking individuals.

48:00

Alpha block was an initiative program

48:04

where we were trying to teach individuals

48:07

how to read and write and speak their native language.

48:09

As you got over towards the later part of the alphabet

48:14

that's where a lot of the lower level,

48:16

lower privileged detainees were at,

48:18

the individuals who were more confrontational

48:21

and early part of the alphabet individuals

48:24

were more agreeable and more cooperative

48:25

and Delta block was, you know, that was the crazy block.

48:28

That was where all the individuals

48:33

who had some type of a mental illness or whatnot were at.

48:34

I can really only remember one detainee

48:39

from Delta block his name is Jinko,

48:40

and I think he had been playing the crazy card,

48:43

he had been playing that,

48:48

I don't think he was really suffering

48:49

from any type of mental illness,

48:51

but this individual would stand on top of his bunk

48:52

and swan dive and do a couple of, you know,

48:55

little cut styrofoam cup of water.

48:58

And if he was crazy, then it makes sense,

49:01

if he wasn't, he's a great actor

49:05

and that was a phenomenal performance,

49:07

the number of times,

49:08

he would yell profanities

49:11

and then phrases that wouldn't make any sense

49:13

and then sayings that wouldn't make any sense

49:16

from top of his lungs

49:17

and try to stir trouble and create trouble and whatnot.

49:19

I have my reasons just from seeing him

49:23

and seeing how he operated,

49:26

I really don't think he was suffering

49:27

from any mental illness,

49:28

but in a way it worked out to his wellbeing,

49:29

playing that card.

49:31

It kept them from having to deal with a lot of issues

49:33

that the other detainees were dealing with.

49:35

Interviewer

Why is that?

49:37

-

The individuals who were on Delta block.

49:39

I don't think were interrogated anywhere near as roughly

49:41

or as often as individuals who were on standard blocks.

49:44

They kind of had their own medical personnel,

49:47

they have their own operations,

49:49

their own team, everybody had dealt with them

49:50

was one specific group of people.

49:52

It wasn't normal guards were changing each day,

49:54

it was the same guards

49:57

who were working with them over and over and over.

49:58

So being on that block

50:00

it was just kind of a little different place

50:02

a little island of its own

50:04

from the rest of the operations.

50:05

Interviewer

Were there red stars

50:08

put at the top of a cell

50:09

if you were in the mental block for some of the men,

50:11

had you ever heard of that?

50:14

-

I wouldn't know.

50:15

I never walked onto the mental block,

50:16

never went on there.

50:17

Interviewer

And the Delta block,

50:18

you said it is the mental block,

50:20

what was the isolation block called?

50:21

-

Isolation box from Mike, November, and Oscar.

50:24

Interviewer

And do you know,

50:27

even though you've never been there,

50:29

do you know how long men might have been in isolation?

50:30

Did you ever hear stories?

50:33

-

I worked in the isolation blocks.

50:34

The only block I'd ever been on was Delta.

50:36

Interviewer

Could you describe

50:38

your work in their isolation blocks?

50:39

-

Working in isolation block

50:41

was a lot more boring for me.

50:42

There was nobody to talk to.

50:44

Interviewer

Why was that?

50:46

-

In order to talk with the detainee,

50:48

you would have to open up the bean hole

50:49

which was where we serve them food

50:50

and where we'd handcuff them and whatnot,

50:52

and opening up the bean hole

50:55

obviously your block sergeant

50:56

is gonna be wondering why is that bean hole open?

50:57

Why are you sitting there?

50:59

Why are you talking to the detainee?

51:00

It completely defeats the purpose of isolation

51:01

if you're sitting and talking to him

51:03

and conversing with him.

51:04

They had a light on 24 hours a day,

51:08

just like the rest of the blocks,

51:10

the difference was that they had an air conditioning

51:11

and the had no ability to communicate

51:15

with any other detainees.

51:16

They were just left in there all day, all night,

51:18

no recreation, no shower.

51:22

There were left in their block and their cell

51:23

and unless they were being served food

51:25

they had no contact with anybody.

51:27

Generally, according to the SOP

51:29

they were only supposed to be in there for a number of days

51:31

and then they'd be brought back out.

51:33

Isolation blocks were used as punishment for actions,

51:35

not as a lack of cooperation

51:38

but if you did something,

51:41

if you created an outburst

51:44

then you were put on an isolation block for a few days.

51:46

Interviewer

Do you know of anybody being longer

51:49

than a few days in isolation?

51:51

-

Yeah, there was individuals

51:52

who run there for upwards of a month or two.

51:53

Interviewer

Why do you think?

51:56

-

I imagine again, it would probably

51:58

just go back to interrogation

51:59

and trying to break individuals down.

52:00

I know that it certainly had its effect on some people.

52:03

You can see the mental deterioration in people,

52:05

detainees that I got there,

52:08

when I first got there you could hold

52:10

intelligent logical conversations that would flow

52:13

and in a proper manner,

52:15

and you could look in their eyes

52:17

and you could see thoughts,

52:18

you could see a heart and everything else within them.

52:19

And in, towards the end of my time,

52:22

after they had been through the interrogation process

52:23

and been there for however long they'd been there

52:27

and been in isolation for however long they had been in,

52:28

it's a vague person inside,

52:32

it's just an empty gaze,

52:34

they're no longer there, they've checked out,

52:37

they're not fully operating.

52:39

Interviewer

Were these men ever taken out

52:42

to interrogation or they didn't even have that,

52:43

they basically were in 24/7.

52:45

-

No, sometimes they would leave and go to interrogation

52:47

and then come back and stay in their cell

52:49

for a few more days.

52:50

That's why I really believe the interrogation

52:53

had a lot to do with whether or not

52:54

they were on that block.

52:55

There were other individuals

52:57

who would act out and be punished.

52:58

Maybe we would just take the comfort items from them

52:59

and they'd still be left on the same cell.

53:01

Interviewer

And your job as a guard there

53:05

was just to walk around and speak to no one

53:08

because you had no one to speak to?

53:10

-

Right, just to take care

53:12

of the day-to-day responsibilities as a guard,

53:13

cleaning the blocks, serving the food,

53:15

escorting detainees to and from wherever they need to go

53:17

and providing housework in the block.

53:20

I wasn't working in the block,

53:22

I was working with sally port,

53:23

all would ever be doing was opening and closing a gate.

53:24

And if I were working as a transport,

53:28

all I'd ever be doing

53:30

is going onto a block of moving detainee off

53:31

to wherever he was going.

53:33

But the day-to-day responsibilities were quite monotonous

53:35

and really not that demanding.

53:37

Interviewer

And the men in isolation

53:40

couldn't they yell to each other?

53:41

-

I imagine if they truly wanted to

53:44

they could probably try talking through the toilets

53:45

or through the air vents.

53:46

I wouldn't find it to be an effective means

53:48

of communication though.

53:49

Interviewer

Did you ever see someone

53:54

try to commit suicide?

53:55

-

There was two suicide incidences

53:58

I think that took place while I was down there.

54:00

I didn't necessarily see them

54:01

I was on the block, wouldn't happen,

54:03

but you hear it over the radio,

54:04

you hear everybody respond,

54:05

there wasn't a successful suicide

54:08

nor do I ever think there will be a successful suicide.

54:09

When I was there,

54:13

we were walking up and down the block every five minutes.

54:13

There's always somebody within 10 to 30 feet of a cell,

54:16

and other detainees obviously aren't gonna stand by

54:21

and let their brother commit suicide.

54:24

If they see somebody trying to commit suicide

54:26

they're gonna start screaming and shouting and yelling,

54:27

and as soon as they do, we're gonna respond.

54:29

So I don't think a suicide

54:31

can take place in Guantanamo.

54:33

I know it's happened,

54:34

I don't think it can be a suicide.

54:36

Interviewer

Are you saying that the five suicides

54:39

that the government...

54:41

-

Claims to be suicides,

54:42

I do not believe it would be suicides.

54:43

I simply just can't fathom

54:45

the possibility of a suicide taking place.

54:47

There's entirely too many individuals,

54:49

there's entirely too much monitoring going on,

54:51

there's too much hands-on viewing of detainees all the time.

54:54

They don't have privacy

54:59

even when they're in the shower,

55:00

they're still being watched.

55:02

So how? How could a suicide take place?

55:03

Interviewer

Didn't they put something over the windows

55:07

so that the guard couldn't look in

55:09

and that give them enough time to...

55:10

-

In a shower?

55:12

Interviewer

No, in their cell.

55:13

-

Negative, they would have nothing

55:14

to put over their window.

55:15

The biggest object that they would have would be their towel

55:17

and at that, we would probably yell at them

55:20

for putting that over their window.

55:22

If we didn't have a clear view of them,

55:24

then that would be something we'd obviously

55:25

have to eradicate immediately.

55:27

Interviewer

And do guards walk by the cells

55:29

very frequently so that there's not enough time for...

55:31

-

Diligent guards doing their job do

55:33

and that was a good population of the guards.

55:36

Sadly, unfortunately, the same individuals

55:39

who were causing a lot of the trouble within my unit

55:41

probably the individuals who wouldn't be doing that.

55:44

But there's still enough of us that, you know,

55:47

we were just either there because it was our job

55:49

or if that was the attitude that we felt about it

55:51

that was the attitude we had.

55:54

There was those who were there who wanted to be there,

55:55

there were there who wanted to learn,

55:57

there was a number of different reasons

55:59

and feelings that we had, but nonetheless,

56:01

there was plenty of us

56:02

that were always walking up and down the block.

56:03

Sometimes there'll be two or three guards

56:06

walking up and down the block

56:08

so there's just simply no way that that could happen.

56:09

Interviewer

Were the cells also monitored

56:13

by video cameras all the time?

56:14

-

Not in Camp Delta,

56:17

I believe in Camp Echo, yes.

56:19

I don't know that for sure,

56:21

I could make a phone call and find out about that

56:22

but I don't know that for sure at this point in time.

56:24

With Camp Five, I believe they are.

56:27

Interviewer

So what do you think happened

56:29

when the US says these five men committed suicide?

56:31

-

Well, I imagine it's probably the same things

56:33

with the first one who died in board room.

56:35

He was left hanging from the ceiling

56:39

and then beaten so many times his legs,

56:41

he had a blood clot, ultimately killed him.

56:44

It's easy just to write that off as a suicide,

56:46

it would be easier to write it off as a suicide

56:50

or claim it as a suicide, it's murder but

56:52

it's easier for the government

56:56

to wash things under the bridge like that's in the say.

56:57

Interviewer

And you said there were two such suicides

57:02

while you were present in the camp?

57:06

-

Right, I can recall two attempts

57:08

both of them were at nighttime.

57:10

and you know, just like an ERF,

57:11

the ERF team would respond immediately.

57:15

They'd be dressed and ready to go into the cell immediately

57:17

to get that individual out.

57:19

The four guards that are working that particular block

57:20

would be the ones who respond

57:23

prior to the ERF team even arriving.

57:24

The job was to go in, get them down

57:26

if they're trying to hang themselves or whatnot,

57:28

if they're trying to hurt themselves,

57:30

go and secure whatever object

57:31

they're trying to hurt themself with.

57:33

I truly cannot fathom a suicide taking place in Guantanamo,

57:35

it's just simply not possible.

57:38

Interviewer

Did you ever see detainees

57:41

throw feces or urine?

57:44

-

Yeah, a number of times.

57:48

Interesting story actually.

57:52

We were moving this one particular detainee

57:54

from C block, I think it was to interrogation

57:56

and the interrogation was over in Camp One.

58:00

As we're moving him,

58:05

this is an older gentleman and whatnot,

58:06

he wasn't moving fast enough for my partner,

58:09

my partner starts getting angry at him saying,

58:11

come on, move faster, move faster,

58:13

come on you tail head, you stink, move faster, move faster.

58:14

And yeah, he just started moving fast enough

58:18

and this guard steps on his chains,

58:21

which would cut his ankles and his feet and whatnot

58:23

and just keeps dragging them along,

58:27

eventually the detainee trips and falls

58:30

and he doesn't get up fast enough for my partner,

58:32

my partner picks him up and just starts dragging him.

58:34

It was just kind of an awful process

58:38

in how he got moved from his block to interrogation.

58:39

In any case, we were also responsible for taking him back

58:44

and this guard was the same way when we took him back,

58:48

he was still just as abrasive and confrontational with him.

58:51

And later on that day,

58:54

I think about two or three hours later,

58:56

we were going onto the same block

58:58

that we had taken him back to

58:59

to pick up another detainee.

59:00

And as I'm walking down the block,

59:02

one of the guards early on down the block stops me.

59:05

He's like, hey, you stop, stop, MP stop.

59:08

And I stopped, I'm like,

59:11

what is it? What's going on?

59:12

He's like, you stay here.

59:13

No, I can't stay here, I gotta go,

59:15

I can't talk right now,

59:18

I've got things I gotta do,

59:18

I'm not working in this block.

59:19

Like, no, no, you stay here.

59:20

And I turned and looked down the block

59:23

and literally like within maybe 10, 15 feet

59:24

of him passing me,

59:28

this MP gets covered with poop and pee

59:30

from three different directions.

59:32

And I came to understand

59:34

the reason why he told me to stop is,

59:36

they knew that I wasn't taking part in this,

59:38

I wasn't trying to make

59:39

the situation difficult for the detainee,

59:40

so they were stopping me

59:43

from getting covered in urine and feces, so.

59:44

Interviewer

What happened to the detainees

59:48

who threw that?

59:50

-

That'd be punished,

59:51

have their comfort items taken away from them,

59:52

be put on restriction.

59:54

You know, no books, no games,

59:56

no extra soap, no extra toilet paper.

59:58

Not that we're really giving them

1:00:01

enough toilet paper to begin with,

1:00:02

but in any case they would just have

1:00:03

the comfort items taken away,

1:00:04

the few items that they had

1:00:06

that would be taken away from them.

1:00:07

Interviewer

Did you ever see detainees communicate

1:00:10

with each other in ways that might surprise us?

1:00:12

-

I did, I don't wanna steal too much from my book.

1:00:18

I'll just put to you this way,

1:00:25

there was a detainee newspaper at one point

1:00:26

Interviewer

Actual newspaper?

1:00:30

-

Yeah, there was a detainee newspaper.

1:00:31

There was an individual who was writing the newspaper,

1:00:34

there was an individual who was editing it,

1:00:36

there was individual who was drawing the designs

1:00:38

and then there was an individual who was copying it.

1:00:41

So that was really interesting

1:00:44

how all that came about.

1:00:45

I like to keep a little bit of secrets

1:00:47

as suspense to myself.

1:00:49

There was a map that came up at one point as well,

1:00:51

relatively accurate.

1:00:54

I mean, within, I think it was five feet of accuracy,

1:00:55

just through talking and communication

1:00:59

they'd figure out pretty much

1:01:02

the entire layout of the camp,

1:01:03

they knew where everything was

1:01:04

and it's just really quite amazing for them to do that

1:01:06

and the only way that they can do it

1:01:08

is when they're getting moved from point A to point B.

1:01:09

So, hey, I moved from this block to this block today,

1:01:12

well, how many steps was it?

1:01:15

Well, about nine steps.

1:01:16

Yeah, that sounds about right with everybody else's idea

1:01:18

of how far a block should be from another block.

1:01:20

And how many blocks were there?

1:01:23

Oh, I looked, I saw three more until the end.

1:01:24

They had to have had an amazing communication system.

1:01:27

Sometimes the messages would take place, you know,

1:01:29

it could take five minutes

1:01:31

for a message to get from one end of the camp,

1:01:33

all the way to the other

1:01:34

and going through the different language channels

1:01:35

it would have to go through,

1:01:37

it was really quite remarkable communication,

1:01:39

how effective they were.

1:01:41

Interviewer

Was that message oral or written?

1:01:42

-

Oral which I'm sure we all play telephone kindergarten,

1:01:44

and the message was never the same

1:01:49

from one end to the other

1:01:51

but they somehow had

1:01:52

a very effective means of communication.

1:01:53

Interviewer

I had heard that you were on a plane

1:01:57

that took some detainees home.

1:01:59

-

I was.

1:02:02

Interviewer

Could you describe that experience?

1:02:02

-

I could, I'd rather use a little boy's room

1:02:05

to have a cigarette.

1:02:08

Interviewer

Oh take a break.

1:02:09

-

Then come back.

1:02:10

Interviewer

Sure, let's take a break, let's do it.

1:02:11

-

We'll go ahead and ask that question again.

1:02:13

Interviewer

So you had said that

1:02:18

you had been on a plane

1:02:21

taking the detainees back to their countries?

1:02:23

-

Correct.

1:02:26

Interviewer

Could you describe what that was like.

1:02:27

-

Hellish, as many other things in Guantanamo was hellish.

1:02:29

We started off in Guantanamo

1:02:34

and on a C-130 flew from Guantanamo to Iraq, Afghanistan

1:02:36

and back to Turkey,

1:02:44

had four days downtime in Turkey,

1:02:46

went to Germany and then came to Virginia

1:02:47

and then back to Guantanamo.

1:02:51

C-130 is a huge airplane.

1:02:55

The width of a C-130 is probably the same

1:02:59

as the inside of this room from wall to wall,

1:03:01

it's a giant airplane and it's two stories.

1:03:04

There's individuals up in the top

1:03:08

they were trained by the Air Force,

1:03:09

the only individuals who had guns.

1:03:11

They were stationed up above constantly

1:03:14

just surveying back and forth between the detainees.

1:03:16

And if any type of suspicious movement would happen

1:03:19

or if the detainee got free or whatnot,

1:03:21

they were the only individuals who could respond to it.

1:03:23

And obviously their response would be to shoot,

1:03:25

shoot upon site.

1:03:28

The detainees, they were wearing denim suits

1:03:31

had gloves, not gloves had goggles over their eyes,

1:03:34

ear muffs and had gloves on.

1:03:39

There was two restrooms designated for the detainees

1:03:42

and two restrooms designated for the guards.

1:03:45

What was kind of interesting was

1:03:48

when we'd let them use the restroom,

1:03:49

we wouldn't take the shackles off.

1:03:50

So I can only imagine

1:03:52

if they had to use the restroom during the flight,

1:03:53

they probably had a very uncomfortable remainder of hours.

1:03:56

And then as soon as they got off

1:03:59

I'm sure they got interrogated again

1:04:01

for a number of hours

1:04:02

before they were finally able to go to a latrine

1:04:03

and clean themselves up.

1:04:05

But hopefully I just went number one,

1:04:07

hopefully we can just leave it at that,

1:04:10

I don't need to get foul.

1:04:12

I think it took around 18 to 20 hours

1:04:15

or something like that to get there,

1:04:17

to get to the first stop.

1:04:18

And when we got to the first stop

1:04:21

it was maybe 10 minutes of underground time.

1:04:22

Like we were down, open the back of the hatch,

1:04:25

hey, number one through number 18 are going,

1:04:29

unlock them, get them off

1:04:32

and literally, as soon as

1:04:33

the last guy's foot, lock the plane

1:04:35

that hatch was coming up

1:04:36

and we were taking off again.

1:04:37

Obviously, these were combat zones

1:04:39

that we were landing in

1:04:41

and we had individuals of importance

1:04:42

that other countries had boarded to get back,

1:04:45

so couldn't really risk any liabilities,

1:04:47

couldn't spend too much time on the ground.

1:04:50

Ultimately, when we finally got to Turkey

1:04:54

I guess there's kind of a reward to the unit

1:04:56

for taking care of this mission.

1:04:59

They gave us four days of downtime,

1:05:00

which it was fun, it was amazing.

1:05:02

I got to interact with the Turkish people,

1:05:04

I was able to leave the base

1:05:06

and actually interact with the people

1:05:08

in my civilian clothes

1:05:10

and see the surrounding area.

1:05:11

We were at Incirlik Air Force base.

1:05:14

I got to see the surrounding area

1:05:16

and interact and talk with them

1:05:17

and really see the culture

1:05:19

that these people are coming from.

1:05:22

It's just a complete culture shock, you know,

1:05:23

truly seeing what a bazaar is,

1:05:25

seeing what a marketplace is actually like,

1:05:27

seeing the whole price system, how everything goes

1:05:29

why doesn't anything have a price tag?

1:05:31

How much does this cost?

1:05:33

Burrito $20.

1:05:34

I got like 10,

1:05:37

$10, really?

1:05:38

I only got three.

1:05:41

No, no, no, you said 10, you got 10,

1:05:42

I know you do, you see?

1:05:44

You crafty fellow.

1:05:45

It was a lot of fun,

1:05:48

I really enjoyed the time that we had down in Turkey

1:05:49

and yeah, it was a good time.

1:05:51

Interviewer

What was your role on the plane?

1:05:54

Man

Here, let me interrupt for just a sec.

1:05:57

Okay, so ready?

1:05:59

-

How are we covering on your questions?

1:06:00

Interviewer

We're doing great,

1:06:03

I mean, you're amazing, you really are amazing.

1:06:04

I can see why you write.

1:06:07

-

I write 'cause it's the best way

1:06:10

to get this out and forget about it,

1:06:11

certainly better than alcoholism, so.

1:06:14

Interviewer

Well, we can talk about that later.

1:06:17

I want to ask you your role on the plane.

1:06:18

What was your role when you were on that plane?

1:06:20

-

Aside from moving detainees to and from the restroom

1:06:23

they didn't receive meals or anything for this flight.

1:06:28

They were just in their chairs

1:06:30

and it wasn't even keen to stand up

1:06:31

and rest your legs or something,

1:06:34

it was just no, you're seated.

1:06:35

Our job is simply to watch them

1:06:37

and make sure that nothing suspicious was going on

1:06:39

and we were doing that in shifts obviously.

1:06:41

So I remember the interesting part about that flight

1:06:44

was trying to find somewhere comfortable

1:06:48

on a C-130 to fall asleep

1:06:50

and not just due to the noise

1:06:52

'cause it's tremendously loud on a C-130,

1:06:54

the tail end of it is maybe 40 or 50 degrees

1:06:57

and then the head end is upwards of 80 or 90.

1:07:00

It's just an amazing temperature difference between the two,

1:07:06

the closer you are to the engines,

1:07:08

it was obviously very hot

1:07:09

and then further in the back, it was very cold.

1:07:10

So I had to finding a comfortable place to fall asleep

1:07:12

in the back of the plane

1:07:15

but I had to use my blanket and put on all my clothes

1:07:16

and everything else, even my jacket.

1:07:18

Interviewer

So the detainees didn't get fed

1:07:21

for the 18 hour flights or for longer

1:07:23

as long as they were and they never got any food?

1:07:25

-

No.

1:07:27

Interviewer

Did they get any water or anything to drink?

1:07:28

-

Negative, it was strictly a matter of just

1:07:31

get them to where they're going.

1:07:35

Interviewer

Were they given drugs to keep them asleep

1:07:36

or to so that they wouldn't be in pain for all this time?

1:07:39

-

No, really the only way I can rest my conscience

1:07:42

about that when I simply imagine the idea that

1:07:46

they did know that they were going home.

1:07:48

If they wanted to go home, you know,

1:07:49

I think they had a choice at this point

1:07:52

if they wanted to go home

1:07:53

or if they were afraid to go home,

1:07:54

if they wanted to go to a different country or so,

1:07:55

you know, they wanted to go home.

1:07:58

And I think a lot of them

1:07:59

as to what their time to get well they believe that,

1:08:01

this was Allah trying them

1:08:04

and testing them in their faith.

1:08:06

Now, when the point in time came they were going home,

1:08:08

I think a lot of them were just resting

1:08:09

their hopes and their ideas

1:08:11

and I'm going home, this is over,

1:08:12

this is the last little bit of it I have to deal with,

1:08:15

it's almost over, oh, well

1:08:18

this isn't gonna be anywhere near

1:08:19

as bad as what has been.

1:08:20

Interviewer

And they were blindfolded

1:08:22

or hooded for the entire time?

1:08:23

-

Goggles, goggles and earmuffs.

1:08:25

Interviewer

So they couldn't talk to each other.

1:08:28

-

Right, right, they couldn't talk to each other,

1:08:30

interact with anybody.

1:08:32

They were just, 18 hours

1:08:33

of basically being an isolation block.

1:08:35

Interviewer

Do you know whether planes

1:08:38

that took men to Guantanamo were similar?

1:08:40

-

I would imagine they would be.

1:08:44

We've seen the photos of the one

1:08:45

that John Walker Lindh was on and a number of others.

1:08:47

And they're about the same size and diameter

1:08:49

so I would imagine that they were the same planes.

1:08:52

Interviewer

Do you have any ideas

1:08:55

since you stopped in different countries

1:08:56

on the way to Guantanamo

1:08:57

some detainees mentioned they stopped at some country

1:08:58

and possibly refueled

1:09:01

before they came onto Guantanamo.

1:09:03

-

Right, we stopped at Germany and Virginia.

1:09:05

Why it was necessary to stop twice on the way home

1:09:07

we were able to fly all the way over there once.

1:09:10

I don't quite understand,

1:09:13

but perhaps maybe what I was told about the trip

1:09:15

and all the operations of it

1:09:18

wasn't necessarily what was going on.

1:09:19

Nonetheless, when we were in Germany

1:09:21

it was really only about an hour and a half.

1:09:23

So I can't imagine too much

1:09:25

of anything important was going on.

1:09:26

We didn't pick up any new passengers.

1:09:28

So I believe it truly was refueling.

1:09:30

Interviewer

You didn't pick up passengers anywhere.

1:09:32

-

No.

1:09:35

Interviewer

So by the time you reached Germany,

1:09:36

everyone was off the, all the detainees...

1:09:37

-

Correct, it was just us military personnel.

1:09:38

Interviewer

And do you know why they selected you

1:09:42

to be on this plane?

1:09:44

-

I imagine is because the same thing

1:09:46

with going to Guantanamo,

1:09:48

we need people to go and do this mission,

1:09:49

hey, you're going.

1:09:51

It's simply a matter,

1:09:53

in the military with deployments and anything like that,

1:09:54

it's really just a matter of how long you've been in

1:09:56

and what you've done already.

1:09:58

If you've done a number of deployments

1:09:59

then you're not gonna get moved over

1:10:01

from one unit to another to help them fill.

1:10:02

There was a lot of individuals

1:10:05

who were in the 252nd with me

1:10:06

who didn't get moved over

1:10:08

because they'd been deployed

1:10:09

or maybe just recently come home.

1:10:10

Whereas I was fresh in the army,

1:10:12

I'd never been deployed before, so

1:10:14

that's why I was selected to go to Guantanamo.

1:10:15

I imagine it's the exact same premise

1:10:18

with the flight mission.

1:10:19

Interviewer

I had heard stories that

1:10:22

some men supposedly went on these flights

1:10:23

that you just described

1:10:26

but then were brought back to Guantanamo

1:10:27

and actually never was sent home, never went home.

1:10:29

Had you ever heard any of those kinds of stories?

1:10:33

-

I haven't heard anything along the lines of that.

1:10:35

I can't imagine it being so,

1:10:37

I wouldn't see why the army

1:10:39

willingly wasted the money doing that.

1:10:40

I gotta understand, simple, small things

1:10:43

like picking up a detainee

1:10:45

and driving them around in a van for an hour and a half

1:10:46

so they think they're going to somewhere

1:10:50

further on the island

1:10:51

when they're really just going a quarter mile away.

1:10:52

I can understand that

1:10:54

but it's obviously distinctly different

1:10:55

from taking an airplane out, using the Air Force,

1:10:57

flying around in the air,

1:11:00

actually having real world issues presentable.

1:11:02

I can't see that

1:11:05

as being something that would be acceptable.

1:11:06

Interviewer

Going back to something you said

1:11:09

before the break,

1:11:10

you mentioned that there was one block

1:11:11

for the Pashtuns, did you say...

1:11:12

-

Right, it was the Pashto initiative block,

1:11:15

it was Bravo block.

1:11:16

Interviewer

Why was that?

1:11:17

-

I think it was a matter of

1:11:19

just trying to help them adapt to their life

1:11:21

when they got out.

1:11:23

Teaching them to read and write their own language

1:11:25

as well as teaching them to read and write in Arabic.

1:11:27

It was just sort of a tool,

1:11:29

it was something that we were giving them,

1:11:31

something to kind of make their transition better.

1:11:32

We did the same thing with the children.

1:11:36

A lot of the children received psychiatric care,

1:11:37

they received secondary and post-secondary education

1:11:39

while they were there.

1:11:43

They had a privileges that the other detainees didn't,

1:11:45

they were allowed to go to the ocean for an hour a week

1:11:47

and spend time in the water.

1:11:49

They had videos, they had television,

1:11:50

they had a full library.

1:11:52

Life was very different for them.

1:11:54

We believed that they had some information,

1:11:56

we tried to extract it and we realized that they didn't

1:11:58

or we extract the information,

1:12:00

whichever one took place

1:12:02

they were treated very humanely

1:12:04

and it's fortunate that at least somebody

1:12:06

who's been in Guantanamo was treated humanely

1:12:08

let alone it was the children, so.

1:12:10

Interviewer

How old were these children?

1:12:12

-

I believe the ages are rumored to be 12 and 13.

1:12:14

Interviewer

Do you know if there was any ethnic conflict

1:12:20

among the different men from different countries?

1:12:22

-

No, absolutely not.

1:12:26

Racism is not tolerated in any way, shape or form in Islam.

1:12:28

Interviewer

And would there be leaders

1:12:31

in the different blocks?

1:12:33

Did some men rise to a leadership position?

1:12:34

-

Some of the individuals

1:12:38

that perhaps we gave pet names to,

1:12:38

some of the individuals that

1:12:40

we didn't have any names established for.

1:12:42

There was one individual who kind of led everything

1:12:43

as far as the wiggers were concerned.

1:12:47

There was a couple of Syrian individuals

1:12:50

who super saw everything

1:12:52

and took care of with the Syrians.

1:12:53

Oddly enough, the Syrians

1:12:57

were really only ones who didn't like the US

1:12:58

or at least weren't agreeable

1:13:00

or hospitable so to say with us.

1:13:02

They were very confrontational individuals.

1:13:05

Interviewer

The other nations,

1:13:09

none of the other nations represented

1:13:09

seem to have the same confrontational.

1:13:11

-

Right, right.

1:13:13

There might be one or two

1:13:15

but I wouldn't say the entire Iraqi population

1:13:16

or the entire Afghani population disliked the US

1:13:19

but the Syrians, they really did not like us,

1:13:22

mainly did not like us.

1:13:26

Interviewer

Do you know why?

1:13:27

-

I can only imagine it has to do with history, education,

1:13:29

the enculturation that they receive in Syria

1:13:32

and it's like the same thing here.

1:13:35

You know, there's a lot of Americans

1:13:37

that don't like anything to do with the Middle East

1:13:38

and there's no reason for it,

1:13:40

it's just social and educational culture issue.

1:13:42

Interviewer

Could you describe

1:13:45

if someone rose to leadership position

1:13:46

what exactly do that entail?

1:13:48

What would he do?

1:13:50

-

If we were aware that they were a leader

1:13:51

they would be the person

1:13:53

that we would go and see during a conflict.

1:13:54

Like I've spoken with Ahmed and Shakir.

1:13:56

If I was having an issue on a block

1:14:00

that one of the two of them was on,

1:14:02

even if it's just a little simple petty issue,

1:14:04

but you know, I'm not gonna elevate this

1:14:06

and I'm not gonna deal with it,

1:14:08

I'm just gonna go over to him,

1:14:09

I'm gonna tell him what's going on,

1:14:10

he's gonna speak to you reasonably

1:14:12

and then we're gonna get things accomplished.

1:14:13

In a lot of ways,

1:14:16

that was how the leaders were kind of useful.

1:14:17

At the same point in time

1:14:20

DOC tried to discriminate leaders

1:14:21

if they found there was somebody

1:14:23

who was a leader of a group of people

1:14:24

or a leader of certain people,

1:14:26

they would make sure that individual wasn't on a block

1:14:28

with those people.

1:14:31

They were consistently trying to put, you know,

1:14:32

they had this mastermind project,

1:14:35

like this guy speaks French,

1:14:36

we'll put him next to somebody who speaks Arabic,

1:14:38

next to somebody who speaks Persian,

1:14:39

next to somebody who speaks Urdu.

1:14:40

What they didn't understand was

1:14:42

well, chances are these people probably speak

1:14:45

all four of those languages anyway.

1:14:47

So you really just wasting

1:14:49

a lot of time and trouble and manpower.

1:14:51

Yeah, they had their own operations

1:14:54

of what they thought was going on.

1:14:56

And truly if,

1:14:57

I think if there wasn't so much time and energy

1:15:00

and effort being invested

1:15:03

in making all of Guantanamo a head game,

1:15:04

the goals they're trying to get accomplished out of it,

1:15:06

they could get accomplished

1:15:08

if they simply listen to the guards,

1:15:09

if they allowed the guards interact

1:15:11

with the detainees, as I did

1:15:12

and listen to what the guards had to say for feedback,

1:15:14

I probably got more feedback than the interrogators did

1:15:17

and that was just simply by treating them humanely,

1:15:19

having a little bit of compassion

1:15:23

and remorse for the situation,

1:15:24

I was able to establish a friendship

1:15:26

and better trust than any of the interrogators were, so.

1:15:27

Interviewer

Could you ever say that to a supervisor?

1:15:31

-

Oh gosh, no,

1:15:34

I don't wanna get fired,

1:15:36

I don't wanna get sued,

1:15:37

I don't wanna get court-martialed and thrown in the brig,

1:15:38

that's an awful idea.

1:15:40

It's actually kind of an interesting question

1:15:43

that came up last night is

1:15:45

why didn't I take action when I was there?

1:15:46

Why didn't I say, hey, this is wrong,

1:15:49

why wasn't I a conscientious objector when I was there?

1:15:51

And truly, I think a lot of it lies

1:15:54

between the fact that I had responsibility,

1:15:57

I have a family to take care of

1:15:59

and I felt a responsibility and obligation to my country.

1:16:00

I had signed a contract and obligation

1:16:03

and the way that I was able to pacify my time

1:16:06

and to make it tolerable or okay for me

1:16:10

was just simply in trying to be as humane

1:16:13

as I possibly could.

1:16:14

And if it was something that I didn't wanna do,

1:16:15

I made sure that I didn't do it.

1:16:17

And I suppose the proper action

1:16:19

probably would have been speaking out while I was there

1:16:22

and I didn't.

1:16:24

But at the same point in time, I think if I had,

1:16:25

I would be one person

1:16:29

who would have got court-martialed

1:16:29

and media would be able to use that against me.

1:16:30

It wouldn't make anything

1:16:33

that I would say credible or useful.

1:16:34

It'd be easy to tell America,

1:16:36

you don't listen to this guy,

1:16:38

he got court-martialed,

1:16:39

he wouldn't do his job when he was down there.

1:16:39

So perhaps in having taken the road that I have

1:16:42

hopefully I'm more useful now.

1:16:45

Interviewer

Did you ever think of yourself

1:16:47

as an ambassador for the US

1:16:48

in being nice to the detainees?

1:16:50

-

Every time, that's actually

1:16:52

how I start off a lot of my speeches

1:16:53

when I'm speaking with detainees is,

1:16:55

I apologize for everything the Bush administration did.

1:16:57

I don't feel a need necessarily to apologize

1:17:01

for any of my actions while I was there,

1:17:04

but I do feel the need to apologize

1:17:06

for the fact that it happened, period.

1:17:07

As a US citizen,

1:17:10

it's my responsibility

1:17:12

as well as everybody else in the US

1:17:14

that we'd stop Guantanamo

1:17:16

or if we allow it, it's our responsibility.

1:17:17

And we all know about Guantanamo

1:17:21

is just enough people aren't willing to learn about it

1:17:22

or willing to take action.

1:17:25

It's easier to internalize your anger

1:17:27

as opposed to vocalize it

1:17:29

and actually make a demonstration

1:17:31

in that people were just afraid to do that,

1:17:32

they're afraid of great change.

1:17:33

Interviewer

Did you ever say that to detainees

1:17:35

while you were in Guantanamo?

1:17:37

-

No. Unfortunately I think my true educational life

1:17:39

really began about the time

1:17:44

I was getting ready to go to Guantanamo,

1:17:45

shortly after I had gotten married,

1:17:48

I think that's really when my education began.

1:17:49

Educational system in America,

1:17:53

everything I learned in middle school and high school,

1:17:54

superfluous knowledge truly not necessary in life.

1:17:57

Anything I learned that was as factual important

1:18:01

was usually something that I learned

1:18:04

reading in a book on my own outside of school.

1:18:05

Schools curriculum about World War II

1:18:08

was Hitler was a bad guy and killed 6 million Jews.

1:18:10

That's cool, it's maybe like a quarter

1:18:14

of World War II right there.

1:18:16

What about the other three quarters of it?

1:18:18

Let's not just study about the rest.

1:18:20

I guess obviously there's curriculum timeframes that have

1:18:22

certain things have to be taught

1:18:25

and things we don't learn about.

1:18:26

So, I spent a lot of my time in high school

1:18:28

and post high school reading books

1:18:31

and learning about history

1:18:33

and Guantanamo talking with these detainees

1:18:34

that really opened my eyes

1:18:36

to the Middle Eastern conflicts

1:18:37

and the history behind that

1:18:39

and kind of getting down to the nitty gritty

1:18:40

of learning that France, England had a big role

1:18:42

in everything that we're still dealing with today

1:18:44

in dividing up the lands

1:18:46

and trying to cultivate these lands and control them.

1:18:48

that's why we're dealing with the issues that we have now.

1:18:52

I wish I had been that educated when I was there

1:18:57

but honestly, I'm thankful that I've gone there,

1:18:59

thankful that I had the experience

1:19:03

where certainly I've benefited greatly

1:19:04

from having been there.

1:19:07

Having found faith, having opened my eyes

1:19:08

and seeking out a better education,

1:19:11

it's certainly been rewarding.

1:19:14

Interviewer

I do want to talk about

1:19:16

your conversion to Muslim

1:19:17

but I do wanna first ask you about

1:19:20

did you ever see other delegations

1:19:23

from other countries come to the detainees

1:19:25

and do you ever (indistinct).

1:19:29

-

On occasion, they wouldn't come onto the blocks.

1:19:31

They would meet with them in visitation rooms

1:19:33

which were different from interrogation rooms.

1:19:35

There was visitation and there was interrogation.

1:19:37

Generally a party of delegates would come in,

1:19:40

they would be led in through the gate

1:19:42

with minimal screening of security.

1:19:43

They'd go and meet with their representatives,

1:19:46

you know, the detainees

1:19:48

and then they would leave.

1:19:49

They didn't really have any interaction with us.

1:19:50

I guess this is really a big misconception

1:19:55

a lot of people have about Guantanamo.

1:19:56

Guards live with guards,

1:19:59

the infantry lives with the infantry,

1:20:01

the Marines live with the Marines,

1:20:03

the corpsman live with the corpsman.

1:20:05

We don't talk with the translators,

1:20:07

we don't talk with the psychologist,

1:20:09

we don't talk with the doctors.

1:20:10

Everybody has their own particular group

1:20:12

that has their own task

1:20:13

and the only people they're really allowed to interact with

1:20:15

or have the ability to interact with

1:20:17

is the other people performing that same task.

1:20:18

I think it's just part of the control measure.

1:20:21

If somebody there who's interacting with everybody

1:20:23

they're gonna start putting things together

1:20:26

and realizing what's going on.

1:20:28

So Guantanamo was set up not to let that happen.

1:20:29

I had one translator friend

1:20:32

and he barely had the time to teach me

1:20:34

the little bit of Arabic but he had the time to do.

1:20:37

Interviewer

So did you hear anything about

1:20:40

how the detainees were treated

1:20:42

by these foreign delegations?

1:20:45

-

No, not really.

1:20:48

I can't imagine it to be all that great

1:20:49

because I never heard anything positive to say about it.

1:20:50

Interviewer

And did you ever see the Red Cross come?

1:20:54

-

Yeah, the ICRC, they came many times

1:20:56

and each time it was just a great hassle

1:20:59

to the day-to-day operations.

1:21:03

Everything was stopped when ICRC came

1:21:04

and whether there were showers to get done

1:21:06

or meals to be served or whatever,

1:21:08

detainees would not do anything else

1:21:11

if the ICRC was there.

1:21:13

It was most important that they talk with the ICRC.

1:21:14

They were willing to forfeit everything else

1:21:17

to talk with them.

1:21:18

So when they would show up

1:21:19

it would basically bring a stance a little of the day.

1:21:21

Interviewer

What exactly does that mean?

1:21:24

-

I imagine it was just simply

1:21:27

due to the ability to send mail

1:21:28

or to receive mail or something like that,

1:21:30

whatever it was that the Red Cross

1:21:32

was offering these individuals.

1:21:33

Like I said, they would say,

1:21:36

no, I don't wanna eat,

1:21:38

no, I don't wanna go to the shower,

1:21:39

no, I don't wanna go recreation,

1:21:40

I'm not getting out of line,

1:21:41

I wanna speak with the ICRC while they're here.

1:21:43

You know, they only came around I think once a month.

1:21:45

Interviewer

Did the ICRC ever speak to you?

1:21:49

-

No, no, the outside of,

1:21:51

can you go get this detainee now?

1:21:52

Okay, thank you, can you leave us?

1:21:54

Okay, we're done, can you get this one now?

1:21:56

Okay, thank you leave us

1:21:59

in position then leave us.

1:22:01

Interviewer

And did you ever hear about

1:22:03

what was discussed with the ICRC?

1:22:04

-

I wish I had.

1:22:07

Really the only thing I can seem to recall, it's vague

1:22:09

so I'm not gonna say that it was factual, mail.

1:22:11

The ability of sending or receiving mail

1:22:15

or sending and receiving a message to the family

1:22:17

would happen with the ICRC.

1:22:19

But I would have to imagine

1:22:21

that that would be scrutinized by the military as well.

1:22:22

I wouldn't think the military would allow them

1:22:24

to receive messages from their family

1:22:26

about what was going on at home and everything else

1:22:30

when from supposedly interrogations,

1:22:31

families were being used against detainees.

1:22:38

You know, people saying your family is dead,

1:22:40

what do you got to go home to now?

1:22:43

Your family is dead,

1:22:44

why don't you cooperate with us?

1:22:45

Things like that, so.

1:22:46

Interviewer

Where did you get that that?

1:22:48

-

In passing, you hear things,

1:22:50

you're taking detainees to and from interrogation,

1:22:52

you hear things that are being said

1:22:54

in interrogation or whatnot.

1:22:55

Occasionally, if a detainee

1:22:57

did wanna talk about interrogation,

1:22:59

sometimes the would say

1:23:00

their family was brought up

1:23:01

and whether the family actually was dead or was captured

1:23:02

or was being detained somewhere,

1:23:06

I don't know, it's not a here nor there

1:23:09

but I heard a family was used as a tactic in interrogation.

1:23:11

Interviewer

Do you know if the detainees ever

1:23:15

could get messages up to their families,

1:23:18

just through other detainees?

1:23:20

-

I'm not entirely sure.

1:23:23

I know cage prisoners has a number of letters

1:23:26

and whatnot that have been received from detainees.

1:23:29

So I know mail is getting out,

1:23:32

I don't know how much of mail is getting out.

1:23:34

I know that there's a great screening process

1:23:36

with the mail and everything else.

1:23:38

That was one of the indictments for Chaplain Yee

1:23:41

was dealing with male issues

1:23:42

and yeah, it's ridiculous in itself.

1:23:45

I really think anybody who's captured

1:23:51

or being detained anywhere

1:23:52

should at least have the right to mail.

1:23:54

Interviewer

Did the detainee ever ask you

1:23:56

to take a message out to family?

1:23:57

-

Negative.

1:24:00

Interviewer

And you heard nothing

1:24:03

of those kinds of stories from other guards?

1:24:04

-

No. No.

1:24:06

Most of the guards weren't really willing

1:24:07

to talk about what's going on.

1:24:09

Like I compared it last night

1:24:12

as a matter of fact, guards outside of work

1:24:13

it was a lot like animal house,

1:24:17

binge drinking and parties all the time,

1:24:19

but that's really how a lot of people

1:24:23

spent their year in Cuba was just spend drinking.

1:24:25

Interviewer

And what do you think they did that?

1:24:29

-

It's an easiest escape, you know,

1:24:31

when you're doing a job that you know

1:24:33

is morally and ethically wrong,

1:24:35

but you still have to do it.

1:24:36

The easiest way to escape

1:24:38

from this feelings of shame and grief and guilt

1:24:39

is to drink it away

1:24:42

and that's kind of the military solution

1:24:43

is to drink it away.

1:24:45

I would be a liar if I said

1:24:46

that drinking wasn't encouraged.

1:24:48

Yeah, it wasn't uncommon

1:24:52

to see people showing up to work drunk

1:24:53

and having a miserable time doing their job.

1:24:55

But by the time they sobered up

1:24:59

they were getting off of work,

1:25:00

time to go out again.

1:25:01

Interviewer

And when you say encouraged,

1:25:03

because it wasn't disciplined

1:25:05

or was it encouraged in other ways?

1:25:07

-

We had both, there was competitive drinking.

1:25:09

It was like a college environment

1:25:11

when it came to the drinking.

1:25:13

One of the team leaders they had their own condo

1:25:15

and they had a pool table

1:25:19

in the back of their condo.

1:25:20

As you can imagine

1:25:21

there was obviously a lot of drinking going on there.

1:25:22

Two houses down was the squad leaders.

1:25:25

These are sergeant first classes and staff sergeants.

1:25:27

They built a bar in their backyard

1:25:32

and had their own fully functioning operating bar

1:25:35

and jukebox and the ping pong table and whatnot.

1:25:39

It was like going to any college dorm

1:25:42

on a Saturday or a Friday night.

1:25:43

It was just binge drinking, that's what it was.

1:25:45

Interviewer

Do you think that's true

1:25:49

to any military base?

1:25:50

-

Come up again.

1:25:53

Interviewer

Do you think that's true

1:25:54

to any military base

1:25:55

or do you think it was unique to Guantanamo?

1:25:55

-

It's very unique Guantanamo,

1:25:58

Fort Leonard Wood wasn't anything like that.

1:25:59

In Fort Leonard Wood, you know

1:26:01

we had our bars off posts and whatnot

1:26:03

but it was like a Friday or Saturday thing

1:26:05

where you went out with your wife

1:26:07

or you went out with the guys

1:26:09

but it wasn't a daily habitual situation.

1:26:10

There was a lot of people who left my unit

1:26:15

when we got back and they had to go to AA programs

1:26:17

or they had to just be medically screened

1:26:20

and deal with their alcoholism

1:26:23

to continue functioning in the military.

1:26:24

Alcohol was a pandemic and it was an issue.

1:26:29

Interviewer

Were drugs available too?

1:26:31

-

Negative.

1:26:33

The gears are turning, they're dawning.

1:26:42

Interviewer

Did you ever go to a medical clinic

1:26:45

just for some reason or another

1:26:48

and you saw detainees in the clinic?

1:26:49

-

There was a detainee hospital

1:26:53

and literally exactly like Michael Moore said

1:26:55

the medical care that they could receive there

1:26:59

was much better than the medical care

1:27:01

that the average American can receive.

1:27:03

I know that conflicts with some of the stories

1:27:05

that have come from detainees,

1:27:07

but there are other detainees out there

1:27:09

who will tell you about the muscle therapy

1:27:10

they went through

1:27:12

and learning to walk again with prosthetic limbs,

1:27:13

the dental reconstruction that they had done.

1:27:17

I mean, obviously yes, we did have lieutenants,

1:27:20

you know, second lieutenant, first lieutenants

1:27:23

and captains who maybe didn't have

1:27:24

the most surgery experience performing operations.

1:27:26

But on the flip side of that,

1:27:30

we did have individuals who were very good

1:27:31

at what they did in performing operations as well.

1:27:32

It was probably a 50/50 split

1:27:35

in between good health care and bad health care

1:27:37

but they were still receiving healthcare.

1:27:39

Daily a corpsman would come onto the block

1:27:41

and check with every detainee how they were doing.

1:27:43

And I commend the corpsman on their professionalism.

1:27:45

The corpsmen were very dedicated to their job.

1:27:48

They didn't look at them as you know,

1:27:50

you're a terrorist, I am an American,

1:27:52

they looked at them as you are a patient and I'm a doctor.

1:27:53

I think that's was truly awesome,

1:27:59

it was just quite rewarding

1:28:00

and good and comforting to see that.

1:28:02

Interviewer

I was told by some detainees

1:28:05

that if they had cavities they went to the dentist

1:28:06

and their teeth were pulled

1:28:09

rather than the cavity filled,

1:28:11

had you ever heard of stuff like that?

1:28:12

-

I can't really see that as being possible

1:28:14

because if it were to happen,

1:28:16

then they there would be the risk of infection

1:28:18

and anything else

1:28:20

as well as the pain management

1:28:21

that would be necessary for a detainee.

1:28:22

And I know how the military was

1:28:24

was spending any type of money

1:28:26

on medications for detainees

1:28:27

unless it was absolutely necessary,

1:28:28

they weren't going to spend the money on it.

1:28:30

So I don't see why they would put detainees

1:28:32

in a situation like that.

1:28:34

It's just unnecessary pain.

1:28:36

Interviewer

And did you ever see doctors at,

1:28:38

I know you couldn't go into interrogation

1:28:40

but when you dropped a guard,

1:28:41

I mean, when you dropped detainee off at interrogation

1:28:43

did you ever see a doctor or medical profession...

1:28:47

-

The downside about that question,

1:28:50

captains and lieutenants and colonels and whatnot

1:28:53

we're running ground Guantanamo all over the place.

1:28:55

And majority of individuals

1:28:58

in the medical field are obviously officers.

1:28:59

So to distinguish whether or not

1:29:02

they were medical personnel or interrogation

1:29:04

just off of their rank would have been difficult.

1:29:07

Whether or not they were wearing uniform

1:29:09

that properly showed what they were, you know,

1:29:11

whether they had their insignias up here or not.

1:29:13

You know, that was luck of the draw.

1:29:16

I think there were some individuals

1:29:18

who went around wearing nothing but a blank BTU jacket

1:29:19

and no name, no US Army, nothing.

1:29:22

It was just a BTU jacket

1:29:25

and that was their uniform.

1:29:26

So, whatever role it was

1:29:27

that they were playing, who knows?

1:29:29

Interviewer

Do you know who the interrogators were?

1:29:33

-

Majority of the time

1:29:36

the interrogator were on civilian clothes.

1:29:36

So I believe them to probably have been FBI and CIA.

1:29:38

The whole composition of JIF,

1:29:42

the joint interrogation forces, FBI, CIA

1:29:45

military intelligence and MI5.

1:29:47

Interviewer

MI5 was always present?

1:29:50

-

But they had liaisons and individuals down there.

1:29:52

And obviously there was what,

1:29:56

20 some odd, 30 some odd Londoners

1:29:58

so they had a big role down there.

1:30:01

Interviewer

And they might they've had

1:30:04

a leading role in interrogation at times,

1:30:06

did you notice that?

1:30:08

-

I don't know if I had a leading role or not

1:30:09

they were one of the individuals who composed the JIF.

1:30:11

Interviewer

I had heard rumors about

1:30:17

certain camps that no one seems to confirm,

1:30:19

had you heard of anything like that?

1:30:25

-

You know, the speech yesterday at Camp No,

1:30:28

I had never heard of Camp No,

1:30:32

but from what supposedly took place at Camp No

1:30:34

sounds quite similar

1:30:37

to something called the general's cottage.

1:30:38

And I believe the general's cottage

1:30:40

to have been a little West of Camp Delta,

1:30:42

a little West of Camp Iguana actually.

1:30:44

It had to have been a very small place,

1:30:48

it couldn't have held any more than maybe four detainees,

1:30:49

it was very small,

1:30:52

it was one light that you would see on the mountain,

1:30:52

late at night if you're looking at the mountain,

1:30:55

you could see this one building and it's like,

1:30:57

what is that building doing out there

1:30:58

in the middle of nowhere?

1:31:00

And I remember once we were doing a training mission

1:31:01

because we obviously,

1:31:04

we had to stay certified

1:31:05

with our military police training as well.

1:31:06

So we were doing a training mission

1:31:08

out in the mountains and whatnot

1:31:10

and we came up on this particular area

1:31:11

where as soon as we got there,

1:31:14

a couple of Humvees of infantry show up and like,

1:31:16

hey, turn around and you gotta leave.

1:31:17

Okay, I guess, whatever, we'll leave now.

1:31:20

So I can only lead me to believe

1:31:23

there had been something around that area

1:31:26

that was of significant intelligence value

1:31:27

that we weren't supposed to see.

1:31:31

Then again, we came across other places

1:31:32

that looked like they had been used in World War II

1:31:34

for detaining individuals

1:31:36

or there was ran down dilapidated places

1:31:37

that were made out of wood and aluminum siding.

1:31:40

There's all kinds of little holding facilities

1:31:43

along that ridge.

1:31:45

Interviewer

And why do you think

1:31:47

it was called the general's cottage?

1:31:48

-

The method name by some sick

1:31:50

and twisted individual in the military?

1:31:52

Why would you call a place, a torture or cottage?

1:31:54

Interviewer

Do you think that's what it was?

1:31:57

-

Yeah, most definitely, the general's cottage.

1:31:58

You're getting ordered

1:32:02

to go arrest somebody high up in rank,

1:32:02

probably a general and let's call it a cottage

1:32:04

cause it's morbid, general's cottage.

1:32:07

Interviewer

But you have no idea

1:32:12

what occurred in that place.

1:32:13

-

I can only speculate.

1:32:14

Well, obviously if waterboarding took place,

1:32:16

which we know it did,

1:32:19

I would imagine that probably happened there.

1:32:19

I'd imagine a lot of the horrific torture

1:32:22

that has happened that has come out

1:32:24

had to have taken place there

1:32:26

and those people weren't released back

1:32:27

to general population.

1:32:28

You know, you can't put somebody into a box

1:32:30

or a confining device like a coffin

1:32:33

or coffin shaped device

1:32:35

and then fill it with insects

1:32:38

and leave them in there for hours,

1:32:39

knowing the insects is a phobia of theirs,

1:32:40

and then put them back in a general population,

1:32:43

that's gonna create a riot.

1:32:45

That's an absolutely awful thing to fathom, so.

1:32:46

They had to have had other holding facilities down there,

1:32:50

there had been other places.

1:32:52

Interviewer

Did you ever see Camp Seven?

1:32:54

-

Negative. Camp Five and Six

1:32:57

were starting to get built and I was leaving.

1:32:59

The structure of five was up

1:33:01

but it wasn't open and running yet.

1:33:03

And six, they were just laying out the groundwork.

1:33:05

We had a couple other camps down there

1:33:08

that were for the Haitians.

1:33:10

We had a Haitian camp

1:33:11

and I forget what the other group of people

1:33:13

that were coming up all the time from

1:33:16

it's just people that were young sailing in

1:33:18

and we had to put them someplace.

1:33:20

They were on the other side of the island

1:33:21

but there are other camps

1:33:23

there were no way shape or form

1:33:24

like Guantanamo, like camp Delta is,

1:33:25

it wasn't ran by the military I don't think.

1:33:28

Interviewer

And Camp Seven which is supposedly

1:33:30

where the high value detainees were held,

1:33:32

you never saw that or even knew about that.

1:33:35

-

No, no, there was a certain select few individuals

1:33:37

from each company that worked in these special missions

1:33:40

and we never saw them.

1:33:43

They were there with us when we landed,

1:33:44

they were there with us when we took off.

1:33:46

Where were you in between?

1:33:48

Where you've been for the last year buddy?

1:33:50

What's going on?

1:33:51

I imagine those are the people

1:33:52

who would probably say plea agreements not the speak.

1:33:53

Interviewer

What's your take on Guantanamo

1:33:59

over the last eight and a half years,

1:34:01

looking back and your experiences.

1:34:03

I know that you said a lot so far

1:34:06

but I just wondered if there's something else about

1:34:08

you looking back at Guantanamo

1:34:10

and the US' role in that.

1:34:13

-

That was a genius money-making tool

1:34:15

for Brown and Kellogg, Halliburton.

1:34:17

they all made a lot of money with that place,

1:34:20

a whole lot of money,

1:34:22

$8 million windmills had been installed there

1:34:24

to help generate power and the whole camp construction

1:34:27

all five of those or six of those camps,

1:34:30

just a lot of money.

1:34:33

A lot of contractors that are paid nearly nothing a day

1:34:35

and given horrible housing while they're there

1:34:38

we're paying the bare minimum

1:34:41

for the construction of these facilities

1:34:42

but we're writing it off to the taxpayers

1:34:43

for millions of dollars.

1:34:46

This money is gotta be going somewhere,

1:34:48

it's probably going to the pockets of these companies.

1:34:49

So I'm sure they all did well wrong cahoots with each other.

1:34:51

I believe there's great number of individuals

1:34:55

who were profiteers off of 911,

1:34:57

and there's Katherine,

1:35:00

her name eludes me at the moment,

1:35:03

but Katherine somebody,

1:35:05

she's done a lot of research about this particularly,

1:35:06

she's more of an expert than I am

1:35:09

but she can show all the companies

1:35:10

who have made money off of 911 and how it happened

1:35:13

and that's just, it was genius in explaining.

1:35:15

Guantanamo was truly a part of my language

1:35:19

because it's completely nothing

1:35:23

like I've spoken for the entire time.

1:35:24

It's a shit stain on our underpants of American society.

1:35:26

It validates organizations like Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

1:35:30

Us having Guantanamo

1:35:34

it was lowering ourselves to their level and it's awful.

1:35:35

Interviewer

And when you mentioned contractors

1:35:39

who were the contractors there?

1:35:41

-

Punjabis.

1:35:44

I believe that that's what? India,

1:35:47

I think India, yeah, that's where they were coming from.

1:35:50

They were contracted to work in the camps,

1:35:53

they didn't speak English,

1:35:55

they would get searched when they came in,

1:35:57

they'd work, they'd leave, you know,

1:35:58

they had poor, horrible housing conditions

1:36:01

while they were there

1:36:04

and it's been rumored they were only paid

1:36:04

something like $2 a day for their work.

1:36:07

So you bring over 60, 80, 100 Punjabis

1:36:10

and you have them building the camps

1:36:14

as opposed to bringing down some Americans

1:36:16

who could use the jobs,

1:36:17

who could use the pay,

1:36:19

who could use the support from their family

1:36:20

or outsourcing it to a third world country

1:36:22

like we did with everything else the American system.

1:36:23

Interviewer

Could the contractors

1:36:26

walk through the camps with impunity?

1:36:27

-

Negative, negative.

1:36:30

They were always escorted by MPs

1:36:31

and they were always watched by MPs throughout the day.

1:36:33

So they didn't have the ability

1:36:36

to relay messages or gather any types of information

1:36:37

outside of just understanding

1:36:40

the structure of the camps.

1:36:41

But then again, anybody who's been in Guantanamo

1:36:43

understands the structure of the camp

1:36:45

so it's not like it's any big secret.

1:36:46

You can google area of Guantanamo and look at it.

1:36:49

Interviewer

And did you ever interact with any of the...

1:36:52

-

No, they're an interesting folk.

1:36:54

It's still unusual to see two men

1:37:01

walking down the road, holding each other's hands.

1:37:03

Maybe not as unusual in the Bay area

1:37:05

obviously you guys probably are used that

1:37:08

but they had to see these guys

1:37:10

two or three men walking together holding hands

1:37:12

and giving each other ear rubs and whatnot.

1:37:14

It was just kind of awkward

1:37:16

and just yeah, I don't understand

1:37:17

what's going on over there.

1:37:21

Those guys are interesting,

1:37:22

I don't wanna know about it,

1:37:24

I'm just gonna stay over here.

1:37:25

Interviewer

So it's well known

1:37:27

that you converted to Islam.

1:37:29

Can you tell us, even though it's been written a lot

1:37:32

but just a little bit about how that happened

1:37:35

and just so we have it on tape.

1:37:37

-

It was a process that took over a,

1:37:40

it took a couple of weeks

1:37:41

to actually get the conversion taken care of.

1:37:43

It really took a few months in development,

1:37:45

but just me learning about Islam,

1:37:47

learning about the minor practices of the faith,

1:37:48

minor practices of Din,

1:37:51

and then the greater practices of it

1:37:52

and meanings and everything else behind the faith.

1:37:54

I didn't partake so much in drinking

1:37:59

while I was down there

1:38:00

and I found that with not drinking,

1:38:01

I felt better each day.

1:38:02

Like health wise, I felt better.

1:38:04

I started a great deal of emotional issues

1:38:05

but my health felt better

1:38:07

and that made things better,

1:38:08

that made my overall performance better.

1:38:10

Changing my diet when I was down there,

1:38:13

you know, I started feeling better

1:38:16

not eating so much greasy foods

1:38:17

and having any pork, drinking, etc.

1:38:18

I tried to stop smoking

1:38:22

I don't know how many times,

1:38:23

that's a long ongoing battle.

1:38:26

I'm down to a pack every three days now,

1:38:28

so that's good, we're doing well.

1:38:29

That improved my PT performance, you know,

1:38:34

my running time and everything else and not smoking as much

1:38:36

and not getting winded after doing

1:38:38

a little bit of exertion of activity,

1:38:40

just little practices, things like that,

1:38:43

trying to change my speech, you know,

1:38:45

using words that are more descriptive or proper

1:38:46

as opposed to using profanity.

1:38:49

If people judge a lot about you and your character

1:38:51

just off of how you speak.

1:38:54

So why don't you put forth effort

1:38:55

and choose some words a little bit more eloquent and proper

1:38:57

as opposed to sounding like a moron when you speak?

1:39:00

So that was, you know, no profanity,

1:39:02

you try not to use profanity,

1:39:06

you try not to speak badly about others.

1:39:07

These are important to Islam,

1:39:09

you don't speak bad about people,

1:39:11

you don't talk behind people's back, etc.

1:39:12

So it's just these things

1:39:15

that are keeping me out of politics,

1:39:16

keeping me out of trouble.

1:39:18

And I don't know, it was the first faith

1:39:20

that I'd ever read all the way through

1:39:24

where I really couldn't find a contradiction within it.

1:39:26

I mean, Catholicism

1:39:29

which I'm sure this will offend plenty of people

1:39:30

because everything about religion seems to offend people.

1:39:32

There's plenty of contradictions with Catholicism

1:39:35

and I still don't understand the whole thing

1:39:37

with the Vatican and little boys, I don't get it.

1:39:40

Why can't they get married or something?

1:39:44

I don't know.

1:39:45

And divorce and confession,

1:39:49

confession never made sense to me whatsoever.

1:39:51

I can certainly go to confessional and it's okay,

1:39:53

it's not okay, you shouldn't ever say to begin with,

1:39:55

I'm going to confession doesn't make it any better.

1:39:56

Every faith, you know, not to pick on Catholicism

1:40:02

every faith has its contradictions

1:40:04

and these peculiarities about it

1:40:05

that just don't make any sense to me.

1:40:07

And then when I was reading about Islam

1:40:09

and learning about Islam and understanding it,

1:40:12

you really couldn't find any of these contradictions.

1:40:14

I couldn't find any lapse in the story

1:40:16

where things didn't make sense.

1:40:18

Everything is credible,

1:40:19

it hasn't changed in the 1,400

1:40:20

and some odd years it's been around.

1:40:22

Still the same text as it was 1,400 years ago.

1:40:24

It's the only faith that can say that.

1:40:27

And its rules and its principles and its guidelines

1:40:30

they're applicable to any society

1:40:34

and they work, they're cohesive,

1:40:36

they create family and structure and bond.

1:40:38

It's societies and sociological practices

1:40:40

in countries that makes Islam look bad.

1:40:43

Islam doesn't believe in discrediting women

1:40:46

or treating women poorly.

1:40:48

Islam gave women a lot of rights when it came around.

1:40:49

So these are again just sociological things

1:40:52

that have been attached to the name

1:40:54

or simulated with the name.

1:40:57

At any case, it was just the only faith

1:40:59

that ever made sense to me.

1:41:00

And when I was really starting

1:41:02

to get my low point in Guantanamo

1:41:04

and feeling awful and miserable every day

1:41:05

and I'm looking around the detainees

1:41:07

that are just always smiling and happy,

1:41:09

despite the interrogation, the abuse,

1:41:11

and then being away from their families,

1:41:13

they're still happy.

1:41:15

What are you guys so happy about?

1:41:17

What do you have to be happy about?

1:41:19

You have the same food, seven days a week,

1:41:20

it's awful, it's hot out here,

1:41:22

you don't have any air conditioning,

1:41:24

what are you happy about?

1:41:25

We got faith, we got faith, it's just a test.

1:41:27

That's all it was for them, was a test.

1:41:31

And seeing them have that cohesion

1:41:33

and that brotherhood and that unity

1:41:36

that I didn't even have with the military,

1:41:38

it was something that is truly unique

1:41:41

and an amazing experience for me.

1:41:43

And it was just, it was like,

1:41:44

this all makes sense and it feels right.

1:41:47

Each one of these practices

1:41:49

I've been implementing to serve me better.

1:41:50

Every door that I have closed for Islam

1:41:52

has opened up many more doors.

1:41:53

So I should really just go with this whole heartedly.

1:41:55

And I talked with Ahmed Errachidi about it

1:41:59

and he blew me off at first, like, nah, nah, nah, nah,

1:42:02

just forget about it now.

1:42:07

Interviewer

Who was he to you?

1:42:08

-

He was the general.

1:42:10

After a couple of times of talking with him about that,

1:42:12

he eventually said, okay,

1:42:15

and I said my Shahada and the detainees,

1:42:16

the majority of the detainees

1:42:19

knew that I'd said my Shahada and taken Islam.

1:42:21

I kept it a secret from the military

1:42:24

obviously for simplistic reasons.

1:42:26

But in any case I kept it as a secret from the military.

1:42:28

Nobody in my company really knew,

1:42:31

there was two individuals

1:42:32

but they were both close, trusted friends,

1:42:33

I didn't have to worry about it.

1:42:35

It didn't really become something

1:42:39

that was public or advertised

1:42:40

until after we got back from Guantanamo.

1:42:41

And at that point everybody had their families

1:42:43

and their bars and their PlayStations and everything else.

1:42:45

They didn't care what I was doing at that point,

1:42:48

they were saying, whatever

1:42:50

we're home now, who cares?

1:42:51

Interviewer

How did you feel about that?

1:42:53

How exactly did that come on?

1:42:55

I mean, did it happen really quickly

1:42:57

in a couple of weeks you converted

1:42:59

or was it over several months?

1:43:01

-

No, this was December 29th of 2003.

1:43:02

Interviewer

And when did you start

1:43:06

thinking about converting?

1:43:07

-

Probably early December?

1:43:09

We were getting to December I would think.

1:43:10

Right about that point in time,

1:43:13

my ex-wife and I had truly hit

1:43:16

our lowest point in our marriage

1:43:17

and yeah, just with everything else

1:43:20

that was going on in life

1:43:22

and all the grief and everything that I was feeling is,

1:43:24

what is it I'm missing in life?

1:43:28

How do other people deal with this stuff?

1:43:30

How do people find hope

1:43:31

and find a reason and perseverance each day.

1:43:33

And there's some schools of thought that say,

1:43:37

there's just stronger people

1:43:39

who find it and find it for themselves

1:43:40

and so the schools of thought, you know,

1:43:42

people will find faith and faith works for them.

1:43:44

Never thought it would happen with me

1:43:47

but faith works for me, so.

1:43:48

Interviewer

Did you feel bonded with the detainees

1:43:49

in new way after you converted?

1:43:51

-

There's really so much in a new way.

1:43:55

My strengths in relationships and bonds

1:43:56

with the detainees was already developed at that point.

1:43:59

It was just simply more things we had to converse about,

1:44:04

oh, you're a brother now

1:44:07

and now we can talk about this

1:44:08

and I'll tell you about this,

1:44:09

sit down, let me tell you a story,

1:44:10

let me tell you a parable,

1:44:11

let me tell you about the Koran,

1:44:12

let me tell you about a Surah,

1:44:13

there'd just be more things we would talk about

1:44:15

but it wasn't any different interaction,

1:44:17

it wasn't any different.

1:44:18

There was a few detainees who were like,

1:44:20

ah, you're a liar, you're a fake,

1:44:21

you're not a Muslim, you're an interrogator,

1:44:23

you're trying to get the information from us.

1:44:25

There's a few that had that idea of is

1:44:27

maybe five, really there wasn't that many,

1:44:30

the rest of the population was just very happy

1:44:32

and warm and welcoming the idea.

1:44:34

Interviewer

And how did the other guards,

1:44:37

you said only two friends knew.

1:44:39

None of the other guards knew that you were converted.

1:44:41

Did you speak well of the detainees to the other guides?

1:44:44

-

The few guards I knew

1:44:49

that were intelligent enough to talk with, yes

1:44:50

and fortunately enough,

1:44:52

they were kind of on the same page,

1:44:55

they were starting to see things unravel,

1:44:56

they're like this place really

1:44:58

isn't what we were told it was, you know,

1:44:59

hey your ideas might be a little out there.

1:45:01

You might be a little bit too sympathetic,

1:45:03

but yeah, that's definitely not what we were told.

1:45:05

That's totally, there's something fishy going on here.

1:45:08

Interviewer

Do you know any other guys who converted?

1:45:11

-

I don't know if any guards who converted.

1:45:13

I know of a lot of them said they were going to

1:45:15

and a lot of them expressed interests

1:45:16

and a lot of them fit stereotypical roles behind that.

1:45:18

You know, maybe coming from Islamic families or you,

1:45:23

I'm not even gonna finish that statement.

1:45:30

They would have fit the role

1:45:32

of being the individuals to choose Islam

1:45:34

and I don't think anybody

1:45:36

ever really went through with it, no.

1:45:38

Interviewer

Do you still practice today?

1:45:40

-

I do, I do.

1:45:42

There was a period of time from about 2006

1:45:42

through the later half of 2008,

1:45:47

where Islam was sort of put on the shelf

1:45:49

and I'm putting it on a shelf

1:45:52

my life truly got just about as bad

1:45:53

as it was in Guantanamo.

1:45:55

So when I started getting back down to that low,

1:45:56

I started thinking, when was I happy?

1:45:58

What was I doing when I was happy?

1:46:00

I was in Guantanamo.

1:46:02

Why were you happy in Guantanamo?

1:46:03

Because I had faith,

1:46:04

it was just simple solution.

1:46:07

Hey, let's bring faith back,

1:46:08

let's get back on the right track.

1:46:10

Interviewer

Well, it's been an amazing interview

1:46:14

and my wife asked if there's anything else

1:46:16

that I didn't ask that you'd like to speak to.

1:46:18

-

After every interview,

1:46:23

there's always questions that come up that are amazing,

1:46:24

but they're never on video.

1:46:27

I always forget them.

1:46:28

Interviewer

Well, it was amazing to listen to you,

1:46:30

you were very articulate.

1:46:34

-

Thank you.

Interviewer

I really appreciate it a lot.

1:46:35

Thank you very much, thank you.

1:46:36

Great, thanks, we're done.

1:46:41

Man

We need to all sit quietly for 20 seconds

1:46:43

and listen to the sound of the room.

1:46:46

Room tone.

1:46:49

End room tone.

1:47:12

Holdbrooks, Terry - Interview master file

Transcript

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Human Rights Archive

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