Hicks,Terry - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

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Okay, go on.

0:05

Interviewer

Okay. Good afternoon.

0:06

We are very grateful to you

0:09

for participating in the witness to Guantanamo project.

0:11

We invite you to speak of your experiences and involvement

0:15

with your son and who was held in Guantanamo bay, Cuba.

0:19

We are hoping to provide you

0:23

with an opportunity to tell your story in your own words.

0:25

Moderator

Oh, fuck!

0:33

Interviewer

We are creating an archive

0:36

of stories so that people in America

0:37

and around the world will have a better understanding

0:41

of what you and others have experienced.

0:44

Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo.

0:48

And by telling your story you're contributing to history.

0:52

We appreciate your courage

0:56

and willingness to speak with us.

0:57

And if there's any at any time

0:59

if you'd like to hear, take a break, please let us know.

1:01

And if there's anything you say you'd like to remove

1:04

let us know and we can remove it as well.

1:06

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Okay.

1:08

Interviewer

And we'd like to begin

1:09

with some basic information, general information

1:11

about your name and your, where live and your age

1:13

and the year you were born.

1:18

Maybe we could start with that.

1:19

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Okay. My name's Terry Hicks.

1:21

I was born 1945, which makes me 66.

1:24

I'm now retired.

1:28

I live in this suburb called Severna Park Benitez

1:31

and it's not in 72 quad area and--

1:36

Interviewer

And, you, your family, do you have,

1:41

can you tell us your family?

1:44

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My parents?

1:47

Interviewer

Are you married?

1:49

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Yeah, yes. I'm married to Beverly.

1:50

We, honey, Beverly has her own side of the family

1:56

and I have none with Beverly, but we treat them all as one.

2:01

So David was from a previous marriage.

2:06

And I have a daughter from a previous marriage again.

2:12

So it's been a long haul.

2:15

Interviewer

And where were you born?

2:18

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I was born in a country town, probably 20 Ks north

2:22

of where I am at the moment place called Gola.

2:28

I call it the gateway to the Barossa valley.

2:32

Interviewer

And last question

2:36

I guess is what occupation did you have before you retired?

2:38

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Sorry.

2:41

Interviewer

What did you do before you retired?

2:41

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I managed a printing shop.

2:42

I was on a contract with the government, which spies.

2:46

I'll just clear that matter up.

2:54

There was a department of defense.

2:56

I don't mind saying that now.

2:57

And with David's situation

3:00

I was probably always a little bit worried at all

3:02

and I was gonna last him the job

3:04

but they were pretty good.

3:06

Interviewer

You were still working there at the time.

3:08

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I was working with parliament

3:11

of defense at the time of David's incarceration, yes.

3:13

Interviewer

Well, maybe you could tell us a little bit

3:17

about how it was when you first heard

3:19

about David's incarceration.

3:23

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Very strange set of events, it's a long time ago.

3:27

Now we've got to really think about it.

3:31

The, I believe it was on a Tuesday night

3:34

we had a knock on the door.

3:36

It was the IGI and the strand

3:38

and federal place to inform us that David had been arrested.

3:41

He's being held by the Americans.

3:45

He was okay.

3:48

Then they produce what they call a right

3:50

of search to go through the house.

3:53

They took letters, bits

3:55

and pieces that I could say was no relevance

3:58

to David's case, but they took them anyway,

4:00

took all the computers.

4:02

I did ask with this right of search.

4:06

If I refused, they said they were,

4:12

they would strip the house right down to the foundations

4:15

and we'd have to pay the price of getting it rebuilt.

4:17

Interviewer

Do you know what the date was?

4:22

You said it was a Tuesday

4:23

with the date that was not long ago.

4:25

Interviewer

Could it be December of '01

4:28

or January '02 or?

4:31

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It would have been January.

4:33

Moderator

The 9th, December.

4:36

Interviewer

January 9th or December nine?

4:40

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Yeah. That's it, December 9th.

4:43

If I remember the time was around about 8:30.

4:45

Interviewer

8:30.

4:53

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You had no idea that David was arrested before them?

4:54

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Well, it did probably

5:01

I asked before that one of my mates had rang me

5:05

and said, there's an Australian rested over

5:07

arrested overseas by the Americans.

5:09

And he seemed to think that the description fit a David.

5:12

So we probably had an idea, but it was still,

5:15

it's still a bit of a shock

5:20

to the system when the dock suits

5:22

as I call them front up at the door and start demanding

5:25

and what they can do and what rights we haven't got.

5:27

So we had no problems with them going through the place.

5:30

You know, it was, they asked where David usually slept.

5:36

So he sent him down to the bedroom

5:40

which my granddaughter tagging over anyways

5:41

and all the soft toys and that they didn't take them.

5:44

Interviewer

Did they tell you

5:47

where David was being held?

5:50

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At that point, no.

5:51

They didn't really give us that much information.

5:53

The just said he'd been arrested, being held

5:58

by the Americans and they needed to search the house.

6:02

Interviewer

Did they say he was connected

6:06

to the Taliban or locator?

6:08

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Not at that point in time now, not.

6:10

Interviewer

What Were you thinking yourself

6:12

at that point?

6:14

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Well, we're probably in a turmoil

6:16

at that point in time because we had no information.

6:19

We didn't know what was happening as regards to David.

6:22

And then once he'd been arrested,

6:25

we didn't know, you know, the photos that wasn't probably

6:27

till they following few days

6:32

that things started to filter through

6:38

mainly from the media, we had

6:40

the media were here for the whole strike was shot down.

6:45

Interviewer

What does that mean?

6:51

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Well, they had the barricades at one end of the street

6:52

and also at the other end--

6:55

Interviewer

And who put up the barricades.

6:59

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They Australian police to make sure there was no,

7:00

I suppose no one to throw stones.

7:06

I suppose that we're looking at.

7:09

The media who camp out the front Stiver awake.

7:12

Interviewer

Was it starting the next morning

7:20

when the media came?

7:21

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Yes, well, the, there's a strange one

7:22

because the federal place and NGO informed us

7:25

that they would not be speaking to the media

7:28

about this and near to five o'clock that next morning

7:30

and the phones were ringing

7:34

the doors were being knocked on.

7:35

Interviewer

How did you handle that?

7:36

What did you do that?

7:38

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We were told by the, at that point in time

7:39

by ASO not to speak with the media until they consulted us.

7:43

Interviewer

Did you speak to the media?

7:49

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No, we abided by what the, 'cause I mean, pretty naive

7:51

never handled anything like that before I made life.

7:55

So we did the right thing.

7:57

It was probably really not the right thing to do.

7:59

Interviewer

Why?

8:02

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Because I find that fan within that week,

8:03

they absolutely demonized David, the media,

8:05

the government was just as bad.

8:09

They were the ones that were feeding the media

8:12

with the information that we know nothing about.

8:14

And he was a terrorist and he was the worst.

8:16

And as Mr. Bush said, he was one of the worst 10 people

8:20

in the world and all this sort of business, you know.

8:25

And it was that song was very, very hard to take him

8:28

by the end of the way he got had enough.

8:33

And I spoke with the south strand place officer that was

8:36

in charge of looking after us

8:39

and our wellbeing as I call it, they spoke with ASO.

8:42

ASO said, yes, we can go ahead.

8:46

So I went out to media and said, oh, we'll be giving

8:49

I'll be making a press statement in the next 15 minutes.

8:54

But in, within that 15 minutes, I showered

9:00

rang and said, no.

9:02

So I said to the place officer, I think I now have to do it.

9:05

I can't wait any longer.

9:12

This is, you know, people on the street were getting a bit

9:14

sick and tired of what was happening at that point

9:16

because our bang stopped and asked who they were

9:18

and around this sort of thing.

9:21

So I gave a press conference.

9:23

Interviewer

Before I asked you about that.

9:28

Did you go to work that week?

9:30

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Yes.

9:31

Interviewer

Did people at work ask you questions?

9:32

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I had a meeting, my, the people I was contracted

9:35

with, actually sent the general manager out from England.

9:40

I had a meeting with him.

9:46

I thought that was the end of the job

9:48

but he informed me if I needed any assistance

9:49

I have people there that can assist the family.

9:53

If we need to be flown anywhere,

9:59

you just contact us and we'll get you there.

10:02

Interviewer

Why did you think you would lose your job

10:05

because your son was arrested?

10:07

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Well, the job I was doing was with the department

10:08

of defense, whether they might've thought that I was brought

10:13

up, could have been passing on information, which I wasn't.

10:20

I mean, I think people realized

10:22

that I was pretty trustworthy.

10:28

I mean, I worked for the department of defense

10:29

for 44 years, at that stage

10:31

it was 39 years that I'd worked with them.

10:34

So I found them very, very good.

10:37

Now and security people were not too bad.

10:43

They asked silly questions,

10:48

don't mind asking questions about David.

10:50

And I just said to him, well, it was, and I could ask him

10:53

maybe you have people that could

10:57

probably be asked David himself so.

10:59

Interviewer

During that week,

11:01

had you heard anything more

11:03

about David's where David was held

11:04

and what was going on with that?

11:07

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We did get a heads up

11:08

that he was transferred from Afghanistan to the Pella Loo.

11:10

And then from there to leave the town.

11:17

Interviewer

With ships?

11:22

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Yes, the American ships.

11:23

And then we found out

11:25

down the track that apparently had been pretty

11:27

hostile dealt with.

11:30

Interviewer

When did you find that out much later?

11:32

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That was later.

11:34

Interviewer

That early in those early days?

11:35

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No.

11:37

Interviewer

Who told you he was transferred?

11:39

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Not very, I think that come from one of the media

11:43

that he was being retained

11:47

or detained on American warship.

11:50

And then later on, he was

11:53

then I'm not sure whether it was a Baton first.

11:55

And then he was transferred through the, to the Pele Loo.

11:58

It was either one way.

12:01

I mean, time's gone by now in Minnesota, try and pick

12:04

out which way it guys, but so we were really, really,

12:08

we were only picking up information through the media.

12:11

Interviewer

Just one question.

12:17

And my wife went to ask the question

12:20

but were you able to sleep during that week?

12:22

We, how were you handling it?

12:24

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A little bit it was pretty difficult.

12:27

Yeah, I think the worst part of the situation was

12:32

that we had my wife contacting him

12:34

to find out what was happening.

12:39

So the head guys ran on ran around,

12:44

during the day is okay, during the day there's people.

12:46

There's you got your work.

12:49

Yeah, and then I do a volunteer job

12:52

with our local football side.

12:56

That's two nights a week.

12:57

So I used, myself I was able to direct my frustrations as by

12:59

as adding delays fields.

13:07

But once a quiet time came that's when the mine started say

13:09

you think you're sleeping?

13:14

When you got out in the morning, you still tired.

13:16

And it wasn't good.

13:18

Moderator

When was the last time they'd heard

13:21

from David before this came.

13:24

And at that time, in that first, in those first few days

13:27

did it occur to them

13:31

that David could possibly be being mistreated?

13:32

Interviewer

Okay, when did the last time you heard

13:37

from David before the,

13:39

and what was the name of the organization?

13:42

Can you tell us so people who watching this people

13:44

might not watch this for 50 years to pass.

13:46

You said the ASO, is that it?

13:49

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Is Australian security.

13:52

Interviewer

Security

Organization or?

14:00

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Yes. Yeah, it's equivalent to your CIA.

14:01

Interviewer

CIA or?

14:04

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Or your FDI or your high security.

14:06

We have what we call IFP

14:09

which is Strike and Federal Police.

14:11

And then above them, you have ICI.

14:13

Interviewer

Okay.

14:16

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So which is strata, insecurity,

14:19

whatever they call themselves.

14:20

Interviewer

So before you, they notified you

14:21

when is the last time you heard from the David?

14:23

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The last time we heard from David,

14:25

he actually rang us on a set phone satellite phone.

14:26

He was in some Creek bed, but it was

14:29

a terrible conversation because it was breaking

14:33

up that much.

14:37

So we really didn't have the full gist

14:40

of what was happening.

14:42

I think he said, he mentioned something about going to

14:44

Qubole the cause the Northern Alliance were advancing

14:47

and all this sort of thing.

14:52

So we really didn't get the full story and surprising

14:55

you know, I still haven't because I haven't asked David

15:00

and I think the problem is now that David's back attended

15:02

you know, he's back here, then that was in the past

15:06

and whatever I say, well, so it was, that was

15:11

the last contact we had with David,

15:14

was this satellite phone conversation, which wasn't--

15:16

Interviewer

Do you know how many weeks

15:19

or months it was prior to?

15:22

Interviewer

November 30th.

15:24

Moderator

November the 30th?

15:25

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Yeah.

15:26

Moderator

That's fine.

15:27

Interviewer

It's fine.

15:28

Moderator

November the 3rd.

15:29

Interviewer

November the 3rd.

15:30

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In November 3rd, yeah.

15:31

We ran about that time.

15:32

So it was probably week, November.

15:34

Yeah. What it was.

15:41

So that was a good month after that

15:42

before he was actually arrested.

15:44

Interviewer

And when he was arrested,

15:46

did you have any suspicions

15:47

especially when he's telling the boats

15:49

and maybe he was being mistreated?

15:51

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And neither strangely, you tend to think

15:53

that they're an allied country,

15:58

America have got in and they'll be, he'll be sent back.

16:00

If he's done it.

16:03

Look, my argument right through this was, if he's guilty

16:04

he goes to court

16:08

then he's got to prove that he's not whatever.

16:11

Then if he's guilty, lone unforced, we'll all to where.

16:13

So that's the mentality that to get

16:15

that he would be coming back and sent back

16:19

by the Americans and probably get a smack on the wrist.

16:22

You shouldn't be here.

16:25

Interviewer

But during that first week

16:27

you had no indication that was going happen?

16:29

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No, none whatsoever.

16:31

You know, when I'm probably going forward a bit here

16:33

but when we eventually got our lawyer

16:40

he actually said as well, that, well

16:42

let me be Ironman two or three months.

16:47

Interviewer

[Well, I wanna get into That,

16:51

but why don't we go back

16:53

to where you gave a public statement

16:55

for the first time you, could you tell us what

16:56

if you remember what you said

16:59

and what reaction you got?

17:00

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Look, the statement on my, to the press was,

17:02

you know, that the government seemed to not

17:07

have more information that we've had.

17:10

And I went on the lines of the, you know, that, you know,

17:12

now I'm guilty until they've faced a proper court system.

17:17

So the interesting part there will be when he gets back.

17:22

Yeah, then that's where the procedure

17:25

and all these sort of things.

17:27

And that was along the lines that I spoke to the media ban.

17:29

They did misconstrue, there was a couple

17:33

of media that misconstrued things,

17:37

because it came back to me quite a few years afterwards

17:39

that I'd said David was guilty.

17:44

And when I went back through the started reflux

17:51

through the websites and everything else

17:55

I came across this one where I said, my statement was,

17:58

if he is guilty, then you know,

18:04

through the court procedures.

18:08

And we all have to wear it, you know, the family

18:10

but nice coming out and later on and said,

18:12

because they went on a real session when David was coming

18:18

back to to Australia,

18:21

some reason I will flare it up again and said

18:25

even the father said he was guilty

18:28

and I'm lies line say, Hey, you have media

18:29

that being controlled or being controlling

18:36

by governments and within the Rhines, it's.

18:40

Yeah, at the start of all this, you know,

18:50

you gotta realize what you got to do.

18:52

Hey, how, how the processes of gangs to go along way

18:56

eventually that you've got to do something about it.

18:59

Interviewer

What, so you were,

19:04

this was your first statement

19:07

and you said you were somewhat naive.

19:09

What did you do after you gave that statement?

19:11

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Packed up and come inside, left the mate.

19:14

Once I'd given a statement, they went to the four corners.

19:17

The earth just disappeared.

19:21

The Strait went quiet.

19:25

That was it.

19:28

Which is why I was saying, if I'd have given the statement

19:30

when I wanted to, oldest business would be heavy stuff

19:33

from the media, and that possibly wouldn't have happened.

19:41

He would have had the odd ones at all

19:43

wanting the interviews and all this, which I still do.

19:44

And every now and again

19:47

he'll ring that will ring even now asking silly questions.

19:48

So, but if I'd have done it early,

19:53

it would have been all at the media

19:56

demonizing possibly would have settled down.

19:59

Interviewer

Well, then things did settle down for you.

20:04

The media disappeared and your--

20:07

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Yeah.

20:09

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Your young days went smoothly.

20:11

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Yeah, the days were stoked that we eventually three

20:13

my daughter got in touch with the Red Cross

20:20

because we had no way of speaking with David.

20:23

We didn't I, the process of how we could get,

20:27

send him a book or send him a letter or whatever,

20:31

Red Cross were very, very good.

20:35

They asked if we'd give them a weight.

20:38

While I saw that with the international Red Cross

20:42

whether they were allowed to go into Guantanamo.

20:46

Interviewer

Well, was he, he was still on the ship.

20:50

So he had been moved to country Guantanamo.

20:52

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Yeah. He was moved to Guantanamo.

20:54

December, January something did few weeks.

20:55

Interviewer

Did you know

21:06

he was being moved to Guantanamo?

21:08

How did you hear?

21:10

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Through the media once again.

21:10

Interviewer

The media told you?

21:12

-

Yes.

21:14

Interviewer

And did you have any thoughts about that?

21:15

-

Well, we didn't realize that, I knew Cuba was

21:16

on their own 99 year lease

21:21

by the Americans as a call fueling stop in y'all dies.

21:22

Of course, we didn't realize that they were setting

21:28

up a camp for psycho detainees

21:32

and all that sort of thing until later on.

21:37

So we wanted, by the reason we did wonder why

21:39

David was being sent to Guantanamo so

21:43

but then as we quickly found out the reason.

21:48

Interviewer

What was it?

21:51

-

That they needed a place, which just buys is

21:52

outside the jurisdiction of the Geneva convention.

21:57

And it was an ideal place.

22:01

It was already in place.

22:04

It was already in place.

22:05

All they had to do is build the bits

22:06

and pieces to house them so.

22:09

Interviewer

And did you know anything more

22:11

about whether David was mistreated

22:13

or how he was treated at this time?

22:15

-

Not at that point as I

22:17

we still had no contact with him,

22:19

but the first time we fanned out was when,

22:21

once our lawyers came on the same

22:29

and managed to visit David.

22:31

David did a sworn affidavit to say

22:36

what was harried being traded that was presented

22:40

to the government here in Australia.

22:44

And they said, no, I sorta things happen so.

22:45

Interviewer

Well, I want to go into the Red Cross.

22:50

-

Yes.

22:54

Interviewer

You said your daughter helped

22:55

you contact the Red Cross.

22:56

What exactly did she do on a calculator?

22:57

-

Well, once I'd been through the international

23:00

Red Cross, then I had established a link to Guantanamo

23:03

and had a person I got went in once a month or something.

23:09

I think it was, and I were tight letters,

23:13

parcels, anything like that.

23:16

So we sent David letters

23:18

unbeknownst to us that were being pretty well.

23:22

Interviewer

Redacted.

23:25

-

Yeah.

23:27

Interviewer

That you would get letters from David?

23:28

-

And the letters we got from David are absolutely describes

23:31

for what they did to them

23:33

because we couldn't understand thing he was saying.

23:35

Interviewer

What did the--

23:37

-

They had the American stamp and censored stamped on it.

23:39

Anything to do with emotions, love, that.

23:48

I only saw the language gong and they inked it all out,

23:52

sentences were just because they'd write

24:00

it'd be writing a sentence and may not be black Val

24:05

and then picked out fair, the drugs.

24:08

They really didn't know what he was saying.

24:09

Interviewer

What did you think

24:13

when you sort of let us like that?

24:14

-

Well we couldn't believe it.

24:15

We didn't believe it.

24:17

You know, in our day and age where, you know

24:20

you sent in a letter to someone needed

24:22

you don't realize that depends where that guy

24:27

they do get sent some both wise

24:28

from us to him and from David to us.

24:29

So, yeah, we were this,

24:32

we were disappointed with that system.

24:33

We did ask, I spoke with the Red Cross about it.

24:36

And unfortunately they said, if they interfere

24:41

with any of the processes, then they're told to leave

24:46

and they would not be welcomed back.

24:50

They'll just be stopped.

24:52

So the best thing there is to go along with the flowering

24:54

just type we can work out what the hell he was saying.

24:58

Interviewer

Was there anything in the media

25:02

at this point about how people were treated

25:03

either in Afghanistan

25:06

before they came to Guantanamo or in Guantanamo?

25:08

-

No.

25:10

Interviewer

So you still, at this point,

25:11

you still thought David had not been mistreated.

25:13

-

No, that's right up

25:16

to the point when the affidavit come at way.

25:17

Interviewer

You had no idea.

25:21

-

Well, I suppose I can't say we had no idea, I suppose

25:22

that you knew that the, they have

25:25

it doesn't matter way that

25:31

that have an interrogation process

25:32

because I need deny the reason why and how and whatever

25:34

but we don't, we didn't realize what the procedure,

25:39

the full procedure was.

25:44

Interviewer

I hate to ask you this

25:46

but did you have any feelings that maybe

25:48

the Americans justifiably were holding David?

25:52

Or what were you thinking?

25:55

-

Well, you know, it's pretty hard to say because,

25:57

you know, and the Americans were, the Americans said

26:01

that he wasn't fighting against them.

26:07

Australian government said he wasn't fighting against him.

26:11

Now, when we went back through all the records

26:13

and everything else, it wasn't any Americans are

26:16

striding troops there anyway.

26:18

So my mindset was, well that's the case will be

26:21

that we'll be sending him home.

26:26

But didn't, I think when 911 factor come along

26:28

and then it's started off what I call a fear factor where

26:34

it doesn't matter where you come from, if you're tied up

26:38

with whatever, then you're gonna suffer the consequences

26:42

because you become a need denied basis.

26:46

What, you know, they need denied.

26:49

So I say, this was sort of building up, I suppose

26:51

but it was, and I suppose in the back of your mind

26:55

is thinking, well, if they're asking him questions

27:02

to how they gang about it, but anything

27:06

I won't bow an allied country where friends

27:09

with the American people, that that'd be okay.

27:11

But unfortunately, as I say

27:15

with the 911 things change very, very drastically.

27:17

Interviewer

Did you ask Australia to just seed early on.

27:21

I know later on your day, but early on, do you

27:25

ask Australia to seed to help you get contact with David?

27:28

-

No, the, right from the word guy, we didn't have much help

27:31

from the Australian government at all.

27:36

The meetings that we finally had

27:40

with the foreign affairs ministers and everyone else was

27:42

that it's the Americans that are holding him.

27:46

They're the ones that are dealing with it.

27:50

We have no input. No.

27:53

Interviewer

That's what they told you?

27:55

-

Yeah, my argument to particularly our immigration

27:57

or the foreign affairs man had examined Dan

28:01

I was couldn't have plays, raid the passport because in

28:04

there it says that you are an Australian

28:08

and you had to be properly dealt with that.

28:11

I don't only sort of Lang, and I said, you might as

28:15

well take that app because it doesn't stand out

28:17

because you're not that, you know, they, they informed us

28:19

that they'd sent people.

28:23

I, there was nothing untoward happening to David.

28:25

Interviewer

They told you that?

28:28

-

I'd always sort anything, but yes.

28:30

So it was, yeah, it was

28:37

I think the worst part of the whole situation

28:39

up to that point was normally if you have someone

28:40

in trouble and I got a prisoner, you can go visit him.

28:45

Unfortunately, David was thousands of miles away.

28:47

It's very, very hard to visit, but also very

28:50

very hard to talk to talk to.

28:52

It took us three years before,

28:54

I think it was three years before they finally okayed.

28:59

I find like, so we can actually speak with David

29:02

but then we're on provides eyes that if you say this

29:09

if you say that, then the plug's gonna be polled regardless.

29:14

Interviewer

I'd like to talk about the folding,

29:19

but just one more thing.

29:21

The Australian government visited David

29:23

while he was in Guantanamo.

29:24

Did they tell you that?

29:25

-

Yes.

29:27

Interviewer

Did they--

29:28

-

Yes, tell us that they were the, oh, I can't think

29:29

of the chaps name, but we did have dealings with them, but

29:32

that to me, they were, they just come across negative.

29:34

The feeling I got from them was he's being dealt with,

29:40

why are you worrying about it?

29:44

You know, and that type of thing, and my frustrations were

29:46

that they don't tell you how he is.

29:51

They don't tell you whatever.

29:55

And that was, to me was the most frustrating part

29:57

where they have the right to visit

30:01

but then they don't really pass on what's happening.

30:04

It just made the situation very

30:10

very frustrating and very, very hard to deal with.

30:12

Interviewer

And how did you finally

30:17

find a lawyer to help you?

30:18

-

Well, earl, well, if not early, but I suppose about four

30:20

or five weeks into the situation, or once David was

30:27

incarcerated into Guantanamo

30:29

then we started having phone calls from different lawyers.

30:32

Yeah, some of them, you can, you get the presence

30:36

of feeling that they were after Nigel variety, you know,

30:45

the way that we've gone about talking to

30:49

and then this chap, now the lawyer rang us

30:51

up at the blue, very, very down to earth, straightforward.

30:57

So we decided that we would speak to him,

31:02

say my wife and myself and my wife's son sat down with him.

31:06

And we spoke with him for good countless hours.

31:13

And then I think we made a great choice statement.

31:16

Interviewer

Who was it?

31:21

-

Kenny, he was, he had a very good name

31:23

with no indigenous population with their,

31:29

what they were fighting for.

31:33

The one thing that spies that stood out there was

31:38

that he'd never won a case as far as I was concerned.

31:42

But what it was showing me was what he was dealing

31:43

with was a similar lines

31:47

as what we were dealing with the guy so far.

31:48

And then the wall goes up

31:50

and that happens here without indigenous people, that all

31:52

of a sudden the world I was up in the top 90 further.

31:54

So when we took on and Kenny

31:57

and he was probably by now as well

32:03

which was to our advantage.

32:05

But Steven tend not to be very caring is,

32:08

he was just an all around great block.

32:15

And he was a gentleman

32:18

that when you first met him, you felt comfortable with him.

32:20

There was not, as in, a bad statement

32:24

as far as now, some lawyers we met.

32:26

Yeah, they looked down on you

32:29

that they are doing a job for you and go along those lines.

32:31

And you're just, yeah, but Steven

32:37

no he come, Steven can count me in at any level.

32:41

And I suppose that's because of people that he was dealing

32:44

with through his other cases and that, so

32:47

and he turned out to be very, very good.

32:51

Interviewer

What was the first thing he did for you?

32:56

-

Well, the first thing he did

32:59

was to approach the government to try

33:00

and get some semblance of organization

33:05

to what we wanted to do as far as begging with David

33:09

that didn't go down too well,

33:13

say the next strategy was, was quite surprising.

33:17

They had a, the politicians thing here

33:21

in Adelaide conference and Steven rang me

33:32

and I shouldn't laugh, but he rang me and said

33:35

how do you feel like going in a cage?

33:39

And I said, what are you talking about?

33:40

He said, well, me and a friend have just built this cage

33:42

on the same dimensions as David's now,

33:46

what we could get in that.

33:48

And he said, we'd like you to represent David in his cage

33:52

in front of this liberal conference.

33:54

I went no dialogue, the idea of that.

33:57

And he said, well, at least we'll get something

33:59

across to them.

34:01

Anyway, they're not paid, but dude got to put up with this.

34:02

So yes, I did it.

34:05

Interviewer

What did you wear?

34:07

-

At that point I just wore my normal clothes.

34:10

So we didn't know what color creed or whatever the clothing

34:12

while they were wearing and Guantanamo at that point.

34:16

But that was the first time.

34:19

Interviewer

What kind of response

34:23

did you get being in a cage of it?

34:23

-

Very good actually.

34:26

The reaction, I suppose, because people here

34:27

in Australia at that point in time,

34:31

they weren't really sure what we were trying to do

34:36

is get the response across to them that here

34:40

you have an Australian citizen that was being demonized

34:43

by our government and by

34:46

and through the government to the media

34:48

which I'm the Australian law.

34:50

If they're saying you're guilty long enough,

34:55

you're putting pressure on a jury to start with say it.

34:58

Shouldn't be say that Mike sat to start with that case.

35:01

So this is a point where we're trying to get

35:07

across the Australian people.

35:09

He had an Australian citizen not being looked

35:10

after by the Australian government, demonizing him

35:13

to the point where nothing will stand

35:16

up in the court anyway.

35:17

And so that's the point we're getting across at that point

35:19

in time, John had went through the back door to the mating.

35:24

Phillip Roddick did the same thing.

35:28

None of them would come and front us.

35:31

There was one gentlemen that did, the ICI's response

35:34

was typical political response

35:40

that it was in the middle of the ride.

35:43

He wouldn't go one way or the other, but while he's talking

35:45

to you was just wondering why, and when he got back,

35:48

then he's otherwise typical politician.

35:49

So that was the start of the spice

35:53

the radical side of things.

35:56

Interviewer

Did you, when you said

36:02

that David was demonized,

36:03

who demonized them besides the media

36:05

with actual Australian officials speak out?

36:07

'Cause you know--

36:11

-

We tend to believe

36:12

in the end that there was leakages from the, IFP and ICI

36:13

to the media about different things that I can't remember

36:17

some of the things that were happening

36:23

but that he was banned.

36:24

He was an evil,

36:29

the problem really arises when this American government come

36:32

at nine David is one of the worst in the worst.

36:37

So the Australian government jumped

36:39

on board and said, yes, he is.

36:40

That was passed through the media that yes,

36:45

David Hicks is the worst passing in the world.

36:48

He's been doing this and he's been doing that

36:52

and everything else, but there was nothing proved.

36:54

He had no right of court.

36:58

Well, as a court, as we, now, it, you know,

37:00

the court that David eventually went to was not good at all.

37:04

But so you had all this business

37:10

that you're trying to deal with.

37:13

We were trying to get as much knowledge

37:15

as we could about the whole thing so that we can then start

37:19

or train the lawyers, the different groups that popped up

37:22

that come on side with us to put across to the public.

37:28

Because at that point in time, Stephen Kenny said

37:35

to me that get ready for the onslaught now, because you'll

37:37

we be asked to do public speaking on David's affairs.

37:41

And of course I said nah nah nah.

37:47

That's not what to be doing that.

37:49

So, but he was right in the long term.

37:52

Yes, that did happen.

37:55

So you had to, they had, the bullets are firing at us.

37:56

We needed something to circumvent all that say, we,

38:01

I suppose as strategy was human rights

38:08

regardless what a passing Danny's still has to

38:13

have that human rights aspect where you can't

38:17

bludgeon them to death

38:21

because they're not going to tell you what they wanted.

38:23

And I always say my, my theory of interrogations are

38:24

that if you want to know something about me,

38:33

you already know part of that question, right?

38:37

So you will keep, even if I'm saying now no, no, no,

38:41

you keep going, I agree with what you're asking me.

38:44

And that's all I want, regardless

38:47

whether it's gonna put you

38:49

in a situation where you're gonna be severely dealt

38:51

with hangings or whatever.

38:53

And this was one of the situations it was

38:55

up with David at that point

38:59

in time was that he possibly faced a death sentence

39:00

which to me was, well, none I had made all family was not on

39:04

because you don't give someone a death sentence

39:12

if you haven't faced a court to start with.

39:16

So it wasn't a long down the track when we put

39:20

started putting pressure on them

39:22

and everything else where they actually dropped

39:24

that death sentence off.

39:27

Interviewer

Did you say you became more comfortable

39:28

with the media?

39:30

-

I come across a strategy that I, well

39:31

I suppose it's not a strategy.

39:38

It's it's when you start reading

39:39

about what different people are doing on their,

39:42

of what's happening with them.

39:45

And the first thing that came

39:48

as a bit is a thing called truth.

39:51

Never, if you're gonna be going

39:54

around a circuit and you're telling lies.

39:58

If you've got 12 places to talk at,

40:00

by the time you get the 12th one, the story's not the same.

40:04

So people would start having doubts.

40:07

Say, if you impart the truth, as you know it, at 0.1

40:09

Tommy get ran the 0.12 nothing's changed.

40:16

You still sign what you've said at that starts.

40:18

I've not been shined.

40:22

And so my thing with all this business was okay,

40:25

we don't know what the truth is.

40:29

So all we can do is the information we get is

40:31

if David had done this, or if David had done that,

40:35

we still have a proper judiciary court system

40:41

that can do with it, right?

40:46

So that way you're still stating the truth

40:49

as far as your now it, and then let the courts go

40:53

through the proper process of finding

40:57

out then whether that situation is right or wrong,

41:01

not what you're trying to impart.

41:05

So no side of the fact of the truth side of it was

41:06

that you had to deal with what the government was saying,

41:10

what the media was saying.

41:14

If they know so much, why aren't they coming

41:18

to us and saying, this is what Joe blogs said.

41:23

And he was one that was told I have it.

41:28

But none of that

41:30

eventually that's what we were getting was old supposition

41:31

and innuendos, and cut his throat and whatever

41:35

and all this sort of business.

41:39

So it was a hard situation to deal with.

41:40

We had a group started here called Fair Guy for David

41:43

then Sydney, they Western Sydney pace thing

41:49

cropped up and all these all in support.

41:57

And when I had meetings

42:02

with the different ones that organize A's

42:04

their thing was a similar process to what mine was,

42:07

regardless if someone's guilty or not guilty,

42:14

we have a process to find out.

42:17

And that was just a bottom, basic law and

42:20

of justice and human rights, and which David wasn't getting.

42:24

So that's the line we'd sort of kept on.

42:28

And also you're speaking to different levels of people.

42:31

You know, unfortunately with people

42:36

you do have different social classes

42:38

and you had to deal with all of them.

42:40

So you just try and speak basic law.

42:43

Most people know what human rights are

42:52

and how it deals with each individual.

42:55

So it was not being a different process for me,

42:58

it's something that I've never done before

43:05

and never ever want to do again, was to face multitudes

43:06

I suppose, of people where you've got to get a point across

43:11

and they do have the odd heckler,

43:15

but you learn to, I always learned

43:17

at the staffing that everybody has a right to say

43:18

regardless of the old call

43:21

and they calling your son a terrorist or whatever,

43:24

my job has changed that by trying to deal

43:28

with that process that had, you know, he's guilty.

43:33

He's never been through a court system

43:36

just to put them back.

43:38

So they have another thing about it.

43:39

And the process worked with some

43:41

some of them were just too, I suppose

43:44

government by what the government said and believed them.

43:48

And now very hard to crack.

43:52

Interviewer

Did your attitude about the Australian

43:53

government or even the American government change

43:56

in these first few years?

43:58

-

Ask me that one again.

44:00

Interviewer

Did your attitude

44:02

about the American government or the Australian government

44:04

begin to change during this, these years?

44:06

-

Well, it did, because before this,

44:10

before these events happened, I wasn't in the politics.

44:12

I was one of those people

44:19

if the government were rolling you

44:21

let them roll on if they put this out well.

44:22

So I bet we got to pay the extra whatever

44:24

with David's situation, because it was say a politicized.

44:26

Then you started, well, maybe I should start looking

44:31

at the mentality that these people come under.

44:35

And it's, you have the,

44:41

at that point in time, you had the Bush Administration.

44:45

I've always, I seem to come across a point where

44:48

president Bush really wasn't a very articulate fellow.

44:53

Someone was, I believe someone was writing his speeches

44:59

and I believe he was actually governed.

45:02

They wasn't the president, he's the president

45:05

of the United States as a figurehead.

45:06

He was told by the Chinese, and if you look

45:10

at the people that would be behind him, you had money

45:16

or all influence on all the, of started to had laid out.

45:22

And people who sat to me no, no, no.

45:27

I said, well, every time I go in

45:29

and have a look at that, God wants situations.

45:31

Why does that stand out?

45:33

That he has a man that can't even talk probably, right.

45:35

That's running the thing.

45:41

And he only wants to do, was to beat his father.

45:44

Yeah, he's father wanted to blow

45:48

up the rock and everything else and tie guy

45:51

the countries and do what he thought was best for America.

45:55

And then just have the other person come in

46:00

and wants to better that say

46:02

then you come across the Australian government

46:06

who I thought at that time were bending

46:08

to the will of the American influence.

46:11

And I just found that Australian government

46:15

was very appeasing.

46:20

If the Americans said jumped my side I say all right.

46:22

And this is how I had it come across to me.

46:25

If I find, I said that to someone that I know straight

46:30

and gamma strong, but they weren't no way.

46:34

I thought we had probably couple of weak links

46:37

in our Australian government at that time, who was Mr.

46:43

Roddick, who was not sure what he wanted to do,

46:46

Alexander Danner, who was his iron man

46:50

and what to get what he wanted across him

46:55

regardless of what everybody else said.

46:57

Yes, David Hicks was bad.

47:01

And that's exactly what George Bush said.

47:03

So I find governments

47:06

they have a very basic line before you get into the process.

47:09

You can say what you like, do what you like.

47:18

And everybody's gone job that this chap's good.

47:20

We'll vote for him.

47:24

So he's voted in, he goes

47:25

across that line and that's where he stops because

47:27

once he sets foot back across that line to back

47:31

up what he assigned before he's finished.

47:34

So it's probably a, really a really basic look

47:36

or what I think of how the government whack.

47:38

Interviewer

So I'm gonna move forward a little bit

47:44

to when you said you finally got a phone call to David,

47:46

how did that happen?

47:49

And could you describe the phone call?

47:50

-

Well, the phone call was arraigned

47:52

by the foreign affairs department finally.

47:55

Interviewer

Why did they arrange it?

47:58

Why did they do it?

48:00

-

That was in I reckon that was

48:01

three years after David was incarcerated

48:05

that we find once the lawyers

48:08

and Dan Maury came across, then that was all, yeah.

48:11

The, it needs to talk to the parents, not I made

48:21

I dunno what they influence it was

48:24

but we're allowed to talk to him.

48:25

But then as providers, eyes, we were told

48:28

that if you start asking bad has treatment is, whatever.

48:32

They'll call it the block.

48:38

If you stop port to them, politics, home, or overseas

48:39

the plugs port.

48:43

So the conversation was pretty restraint, really?

48:45

When you think about it, because mind you

48:50

what we talk about normal conversation is politics.

48:52

That sort of things I really would.

48:57

It was a very strained conversation.

49:00

Yeah, it was a strange one because you couldn't really talk

49:08

about what you wanted to know.

49:12

So it was just day to day event Joe blogs is doing okay

49:15

and this one's croak and so.

49:18

It was just a generalization.

49:23

And then that was the end of the phone call.

49:25

Interviewer

How long was the phone call?

49:30

-

And the phone call at that point,

49:31

I think it was about 20 minutes.

49:32

And there was Beverly, myself on my daughter

49:35

at the first one.

49:40

I think I, over the period of time, I remember we had about

49:43

three phone calls.

49:45

The lands were allowed.

49:47

I roll that period of time, which is not many.

49:49

Interviewer

How did he sound to you on the phone?

49:52

-

At the first time it was quite emotional.

49:55

And the second time he was there, we spoke

49:58

with him was, I think he was coming across it.

50:00

He was trying to tell us something.

50:05

I said, fine, caller refused to speak to us

50:11

because he, it was at that point that he was frustrated.

50:13

He couldn't say what he wanted.

50:19

He couldn't say that it was where he even told anyone so

50:21

and we accepted that.

50:24

You know, there was nothing else you can do about it.

50:29

They rang, the phone call come through to Zack

50:31

and had David not sure he wants to sign anything

50:35

and go speak to you.

50:38

So we'll go and speak to him and come back to you.

50:40

So when that came back, they said, now he's talking

50:43

about a spank sack.

50:47

It was pretty hard, but you try and look at it

50:47

from David's point of view.

50:53

And we you're talking thousands of miles away

50:55

from each other.

50:58

And you can't talk about how he's being treated,

50:59

how he's feeling or whatever says it was pretty tough.

51:02

Yeah, well, I ran.

51:07

Interviewer

At this point

51:09

was the affidavit seen yet where he talked about his music?

51:11

-

The affidavit, I believe I remember came

51:14

in after that last phone call, it was done

51:18

by when Major Maury came on, first came on the same

51:23

and they sat with David and worked

51:28

over the whole is what was happening to him.

51:30

And that time, Major Maury

51:34

was pretty media conscious at that point.

51:37

So that decided to go ahead and put

51:41

out an affidavit on old David's torches and everything else.

51:44

And I think it was,

51:48

I think it embarrassed a lot of officials,

51:49

it was asked to be

51:52

to the Americans to investigate these allegations.

51:56

And the answer that came back

51:59

to us was that the Americans had already investigated it.

52:03

And there's no truth in those affidavits whatsoever

52:06

to me to the Australian government was what's wrong

52:11

with the an independent body to investigate.

52:15

There's plenty of bodies out there that groups

52:18

that could investigate where that being one side

52:21

or the other, and you had to get to the bottom of it.

52:27

But now they persevered and said, Nope, the American

52:29

the Americans have already investigated

52:33

and there's no truth to any of the clients.

52:37

So that was their way

52:40

of saying jumping the Leica spies.

52:41

But I mean, an affidavit is a lawful piece of paper.

52:45

And if you're telling lies on it

52:51

that's particularly here, it's Tammy's job.

52:54

So why would someone that's gonna be fined

53:01

on $20,000 or 10 year jowl saying

53:03

on top of what he's already been through?

53:06

It's all lies.

53:09

Interviewer

So what did you think?

53:11

-

Well, I look when I read the affidavit now

53:13

I think what he put in there was pretty, yeah, I am.

53:16

From what wasted, the information we were starting to get

53:23

before the affidavit was that yes, that he wasn't being

53:25

treated very well at that time.

53:28

Major Maury was Steven Kenney.

53:31

But if you can come across with information and pass

53:34

on those about these allegations, and yes, they did happen.

53:38

You also had the gentlemen from the law council

53:43

of Australia that went across at one point as well.

53:48

And he came back with the same thing and right pool

53:54

a huge report on the system and on the commission system

53:57

that they had in place and the Australian government

54:01

wouldn't accept it.

54:07

And yet the Australian government sent this gentleman.

54:08

I, they had to do a report.

54:10

So he's done the report, brought it back and tabled it

54:12

and the government refused.

54:15

So it's just shows you the mindset that becomes part

54:19

of people's guilt.

54:23

I suppose you'd call it instead of chemistry, data

54:25

and scientists that did away as it didn't, nah

54:29

we're not sure.

54:33

Or, you know, it's an embarrassment to it.

54:35

And it's already been handled anyway.

54:36

And that type of thing.

54:38

Interviewer

And your own thoughts in terms of,

54:41

do you think, that you think anything

54:43

differently about David's treatment

54:45

after you read that you, you believe in?

54:48

-

No, I, my belief is that yes, that it did happen.

54:51

I think the thing that I would put the nail

54:55

in the coffin was the Abba gripe situation.

54:58

The way it had five coming out

55:00

of a system of what the interrogators were doing

55:04

that the gentleman that was Guantanamo by that kind

55:07

of think of his name, but he was the chief at that time.

55:12

Interviewer

Miller.

55:17

-

Miller.

Interviewer

General Miller.

55:19

-

General Miller, he was a man that went

55:20

and took his expertise from Guantanamo

55:22

cross to have a gripe.

55:26

I thought van well

55:28

if that man's still sanctioning what's happening

55:29

in Abu Ghraib, then I'm pretty sure what happened

55:31

to David was quite correct.

55:34

Interviewer

What'd you think about that?

55:37

-

Well, I still think,

55:39

I still believe they should have been an investigation,

55:40

a full unbiased investigation into the complaints not to ask

55:42

whether the, to have these investigations

55:53

and then for the American government to say, he look

55:57

what's already been done and there's been nothing happening.

56:00

So, and then you have the events of, as I say

56:03

I have a gripe where I've got five dies

56:07

and they've got gods that have come out

56:12

and said, yes he did.

56:14

We've had gods that looking after Babel in Guantanamo

56:15

that would count money up at one point in with statements

56:20

and everything else that, and all of a sudden

56:25

the United hear them say whether the pressure was put

56:28

on or light on the barrels, spies

56:33

that something untoward could happen with them.

56:35

If they kept that on, I

56:37

we had one gentleman that was supposed to come

56:39

over here and put a statement

56:41

to the media and to the government on David's issues.

56:44

And he didn't come last minute, pulled out.

56:48

We don't know why, I wake and I need some eyes.

56:53

So, that, I believe the torch has happened.

56:56

I still believe there should have been

57:01

an independent investigation, didn't happen.

57:03

So once again, I think the situation comes

57:08

up as let's cover our tracks

57:12

and it'll disappear into the sunset and melon or Nevada.

57:14

Interviewer

So I know you went to Guantanamo twice.

57:20

-

It was three times.

57:23

Interviewer

Could you, do you remember

57:26

the first time you went,

57:28

why you went and what exactly the trip was like?

57:30

-

Well, the first time we went,

57:32

was trying to think of what it was about.

57:37

Anyway, first time we went was pretty, pretty hard.

57:39

I didn't realize how far the place was away

57:45

and to get there was pretty awesome as well

57:48

but it was, I think it was 36 hours.

57:53

It took us to finally get to Guantanamo.

58:01

We're not, we weren't allowed

58:03

to the prison system way would I have

58:05

for the first first court case or commission hearings

58:07

as I call them, we had two people that looked after.

58:11

So I had a gentlemen, they've had a

58:19

the lady from wherever she was found, nice paid well

58:23

they had a job to do that

58:28

to make sure that we didn't go on around the place.

58:29

But when we first got there, we went to the hotel there

58:32

and we said, they put up, put us up at the, my hotel.

58:35

The crossroad was the big shop,

58:42

military shop thing there say when went

58:47

out payable disappeared, we saw an old guy for walking

58:50

able to go to the shop, but Nick, same way

58:54

we're colored smack on the hands and said

58:55

next time you ought a guy

58:59

you will ring us and we will take over.

59:00

So I think we did it twice, but when the

59:04

when the commissions fast got up and running

59:08

we were allowed to go and sit in on land.

59:14

They gave us 10, 15 minutes with David first-hand.

59:17

Interviewer

Could you describe that?

59:24

-

It was pretty emotional.

59:26

He was, it was a shock to us

59:29

because they took us into this well start

59:34

with where they took us stay on this corridor

59:37

which was lined with arm guides.

59:41

And they took us into this room.

59:42

No furniture, just two chairs.

59:45

And the third chair was sitting on a piece of steel

59:48

probably half the size of this mat chair, David sitting

59:53

shackled to the floor, that's ankles and arms.

59:57

Steven Kenny was with us.

1:00:01

And we weren't happy with the shackling bit, his lot.

1:00:04

We tried to give it across

1:00:11

to those people that where's he going to guy to start with?

1:00:13

What's he gonna do, where he's parents?

1:00:15

So I did finally take the hand shackles off, which

1:00:17

and allowed us to hug him, shake hands

1:00:25

and all that sort of thing which was quite good on them.

1:00:27

But we were listening to, they had the one way panel.

1:00:30

They watched this all the time, very emotional.

1:00:36

The first thing, David, when I was

1:00:43

when we was hanging value really quickly

1:00:47

very quickly told us that, yes

1:00:50

he wasn't dealt with in the appropriate manner.

1:00:52

He was tortured.

1:00:56

Just tried to get,

1:00:57

he tried to get as much information afterwards

1:00:59

as he could without being too observant.

1:01:01

Wasn't good to hear.

1:01:06

After that, then we would tag him back out

1:01:09

and then David was bought into the commission hearing.

1:01:12

Absolutely shambles didn't eventually it, it was closed.

1:01:16

And that was it.

1:01:21

Then I landed to see David again afterwards

1:01:23

having what the conversation with him.

1:01:27

And then, but it was just mainly generalization

1:01:29

that sort of link thing.

1:01:32

He imparted the information they wanted to get

1:01:33

across at the stop.

1:01:37

But, and then next thing we're back on the plane home.

1:01:38

So he went there long enough.

1:01:42

It was the first commissions that implied it on itself.

1:01:50

You had too many people signed.

1:01:53

It was unfair.

1:01:55

I'm just system.

1:01:57

And then pulled out last minute.

1:01:58

The commissioner then decided

1:02:00

that it was too odd basket so.

1:02:01

And each commission went the same way.

1:02:06

Second time that we were there.

1:02:10

That was, yeah, the same thing.

1:02:13

It was just, didn't happen.

1:02:18

Interviewer

Can I go back to the first time,

1:02:21

this fixed for a moment?

1:02:23

How did you feel about seeing David after you first saw him?

1:02:25

-

Oh, look, it was when we looked, when we first saw him,

1:02:30

I think it was the shock numb you didn't really

1:02:34

know what to really know what to think when there's a

1:02:41

you know, didn't care who it is, whether it was David

1:02:46

or whoever to have someone shackled like that.

1:02:48

But outside of the fact

1:02:52

that he was tagging through a car at all, that was

1:02:54

we had plenty of fuel charges, Skype in that applies.

1:02:57

You wouldn't get out of the door anyway.

1:02:59

So you had all that laid up and then all of a sudden

1:03:01

the shock of seeing a person

1:03:06

like David shackled, then you guys, Jesus

1:03:08

my bloody Sam boy, buddy, you know, he, he's not hurting

1:03:13

anybody's said, what the hell was he doing shackled?

1:03:18

Particularly in that domain, when I say shackled

1:03:21

it was in that position.

1:03:24

So you can't sit up.

1:03:26

He was completely restrained two leg on, sort

1:03:29

through the loop, hang shackles, to train the leg

1:03:33

shackles to the loop again.

1:03:38

And I made him the ring that went through.

1:03:42

It was huge.

1:03:45

Say getting a high, but getting away from anything inside.

1:03:45

And I thought, well, this is absolutely stupid.

1:03:48

Say we spiked with, we said to Steve and Kenny

1:03:51

is there any way these blacks are gonna unshackle him.

1:03:55

He stayed in spite with them and they did allow that

1:03:59

but they wouldn't undo the leg shackles.

1:04:03

So at least he could stand.

1:04:06

And they allowed him to do that.

1:04:07

And they allowed him to hug him,

1:04:09

shake hands and that sort of thing.

1:04:11

So, but the initial shock was, it was a shock.

1:04:13

It was just, he was just not that

1:04:18

yeah, this is my son that there.

1:04:22

Interviewer

Do you think he was gonna

1:04:25

get out at that point?

1:04:26

-

It was no, I wasn't really sure because at that point

1:04:30

in time there was, does the system was blurred anyway,

1:04:37

the commissions, there was too many saying

1:04:46

it's not gonna work as a military commission.

1:04:49

These are military people you're dealing with

1:04:52

but they call them illegal combatants, that eyes.

1:04:55

So it was moving.

1:04:58

And then once she was in the court, it wasn't a court.

1:04:59

Anyway, it was a, it wasn't even a proper jury

1:05:01

but then all of a sudden it just fell apart

1:05:04

and he's just sort of sitting there

1:05:07

and then they all went out.

1:05:10

Then they will come back in and then that was it, finished.

1:05:12

So I really, and you had the sense

1:05:16

of what happened and nothing's been achieved,

1:05:18

I'm not found guilty of anything.

1:05:25

They haven't found him not guilty of anything.

1:05:27

The whole system just fell in and collapsed in a heap.

1:05:29

And it was just to me, it was disbelief that regardless

1:05:33

of what the American system that they'd set up

1:05:40

it was completely flouted

1:05:44

the bloody procedures all together.

1:05:46

So it just left you in a hall.

1:05:50

You went in straight away.

1:05:56

I thought, well, this is gonna go on again.

1:05:58

And it did, it just, yeah, it was.

1:06:00

Interviewer

So the second time was the same thing?

1:06:04

-

Same thing again, the second time,

1:06:07

third time was, the third time it was a fast.

1:06:10

You know, they sacked David's civilian lawyer

1:06:18

'cause he wouldn't sign a paper was whatever the paper was.

1:06:26

And I forget, but it was a something to do

1:06:29

with grants with the military data, that sort of thing.

1:06:31

But he would, he wouldn't sign it.

1:06:35

So the second he had my right to speak up,

1:06:37

the gal that was his assistant

1:06:41

got the sack that came in.

1:06:46

There's only one left and David was quite good.

1:06:49

He just said to us, by as you're gonna sack me

1:06:52

on the lawyer and leave me with nothing.

1:06:55

But by then the agreements that are the player,

1:06:58

play agreements and everything else

1:07:01

had already been dealt with.

1:07:03

So David signed all that paperwork for this, but it was,

1:07:05

and this is why I keep saying it was a fast

1:07:08

all the paperwork had been done with and everything else.

1:07:12

Why would you have a procedure that's already dope

1:07:16

or cycle there?

1:07:24

Well, the Sage that didn't dealt with her total

1:07:24

it was David that dealt with it

1:07:26

with the lawyers and the high commissioner

1:07:27

or whatever she was at that point for the playback.

1:07:31

And so it was, to me, it was let our spies

1:07:35

at the end of the day, after all that, it was comical.

1:07:37

Yeah. This one sack on that one.

1:07:40

And that one second on that one, and you had that feeling

1:07:42

in the back of your mine is one on I get

1:07:45

out and sack the lot on that's the way it was becoming.

1:07:47

And yeah, it was such a terrible procedure that

1:07:51

and I still haven't got it right.

1:07:55

Interviewer

Do you, did you go home with David that,

1:07:58

from that third trip, could he fly on with you?

1:08:00

-

No, no, no.

1:08:03

David flew home four or five weeks later.

1:08:04

'Cause I had to finalize,

1:08:11

all the paperwork had to be finalized,

1:08:13

they have to set up with the Australian government to

1:08:15

for him to serve out his nine months here in Yalla

1:08:19

which to me was quite strange as well,

1:08:25

that you've done this playback.

1:08:30

And then they have to leave a system where you're Bain

1:08:32

for six years or whatever it was six

1:08:34

and a half or something.

1:08:37

And then come all the way back here

1:08:38

to do another nine months.

1:08:40

And I thought, well, that's strange

1:08:42

but that's an Australian government

1:08:44

at that time was strange anyway,

1:08:46

that he'd been found guilty of nothing.

1:08:48

And he's got to come back here

1:08:53

and sit in a state prison or federal prison

1:08:55

and also having what they call J division, which is like

1:08:57

it was used to us, but he's on his own for nine months.

1:09:04

Interviewer

Could you see him when he arrived?

1:09:09

And he arrived from--

1:09:12

-

No, I spoke with his then lawyer David McCloud.

1:09:13

And I had a thing I was doing in Sydney

1:09:20

the day David was arriving

1:09:28

and his then lawyer had said, look, you might as well go

1:09:30

to Sydney because you will not see him on that day.

1:09:34

He'll be picked up from the ref BICE here.

1:09:37

I've sold spree into the state place wagon

1:09:40

and it'd squad and straight the prison system.

1:09:45

And probably possibly be two to three days where

1:09:48

they delayed even be allowed to see him.

1:09:51

So I went to Sydney and did my thing over there at Sydney.

1:09:53

And then I come back that night.

1:09:59

I think it was.

1:10:03

And yeah, he was comfortably situated in the prison system.

1:10:04

We spoke with the prison authorities.

1:10:10

Nice to find out, but the lawyers already

1:10:20

had said van that had possibly spent two to three days.

1:10:26

I think it was.

1:10:29

And then we had to, it wasn't an automatic thing

1:10:30

at that time, yet the guy you got to ring the prison

1:10:33

and make an appointment for visitation

1:10:36

as per everybody else, which was normal, which is Saturday.

1:10:40

That's what we did.

1:10:45

Interviewer

And could you see him when you saw him then

1:10:47

to be seen better to you than he was in time?

1:10:51

-

I think he was glad to be home.

1:10:52

He was still lost by as you'd call uptight.

1:10:56

I don't think that really, really, it really hit him

1:11:00

that he was back,

1:11:07

I think he still wasn't home?

1:11:11

He was in jail, in a prison system.

1:11:13

So I don't think really it hit him at that stage, but yeah

1:11:16

it wasn't probably countless visits before we started

1:11:22

on wine and start talking and ask about the berries ones

1:11:25

and we'll put a list to him who he wanted to say to visit.

1:11:29

It was quite amazing.

1:11:34

That system take as fast in best dressed cattle.

1:11:36

Tom's I've had odd rang up and someone else had rang

1:11:39

before me then got in and his dad, maybe I should,

1:11:42

I surely I should have first, but then the guy now,

1:11:47

if somebody else was bait me to his visitation right.

1:11:50

Interviewer

Was there someone else, immediate person?

1:11:56

-

No, not nine family, different family.

1:11:59

Interviewer

Family.

1:12:01

-

Which was like and we were allowed

1:12:02

two at a time to go visit.

1:12:04

So I Bev and myself, those three

1:12:08

I think it was 'cause bad myself and the daughter were okay.

1:12:10

My son Vinci sorted out that we do the Sunday morning one

1:12:16

and then, and we'd ring up Friday and book him.

1:12:18

And then now those who was

1:12:20

on David's listen could sorta train themselves

1:12:23

which other times I went to Sam.

1:12:25

So I did whack out.

1:12:28

Interviewer

And were you there when he was released?

1:12:29

-

Yes, I was there when he was released.

1:12:32

Yeah, it was a surface again, the media where they are

1:12:34

and their drives, of course, the south astronomy place

1:12:43

were very good, because we had to get David

1:12:49

out of the system to somewhere

1:12:55

without the media 'cause the media had the helicopters

1:12:57

and everything else flitting around the place.

1:13:00

So they spoke with the IVF people at perifield

1:13:02

which is just down the ride there.

1:13:08

And stray in place said, that's it no

1:13:10

between now flying around between this time, whatever.

1:13:16

But also they blocked off all the roads

1:13:20

to the main road side of the media couldn't and no side

1:13:27

as that situation was happening, the lawyer and myself spoke

1:13:33

to the media and kept talking as long as we could.

1:13:35

And then all of a sudden I realized

1:13:38

that David was on his way.

1:13:41

Then the place shut off the guy

1:13:44

and the media couldn't get out.

1:13:49

And then soon as I had the guy that couldn't,

1:13:51

as anyone that turned up back here,

1:13:55

thinking he was here, but he wasn't.

1:13:58

So we were good.

1:14:01

I mean, it was a stinger up, family invited the there Blake

1:14:02

in have a glass of water and said

1:14:04

bad luck just to let him know that there's not bags here.

1:14:07

And no David.

1:14:12

So it worked out.

1:14:14

Didn't take work that I can say yes,

1:14:15

it was a pretty traumatic time for David

1:14:19

and us as well to try and get through the event

1:14:24

of getting him out of the

1:14:30

'cause once he walked out the front door, he was on his own

1:14:32

but the place were very good.

1:14:36

They did fire lines for the traffic side of that.

1:14:38

The vehicle that was taken, David had a clear run

1:14:40

and then they did their bit, they flipped it into one place.

1:14:43

Now they changed from cars to motor bikes.

1:14:49

And that went everywhere and, you know

1:14:52

giant font tactics with my, and was funny.

1:14:54

But then the media never caught

1:14:58

up with him, which was--

1:15:01

Interviewer

I don't, I'm almost done.

1:15:03

Do you have any question?

1:15:05

I did wanna just ask you looking back now,

1:15:08

it's been 10 years.

1:15:11

What would you say about America

1:15:13

and about Australia and the legal systems?

1:15:17

Do you have any thoughts

1:15:19

about now that you you've observed so personally?

1:15:22

-

Well, it's probably a difficult question to answer

1:15:26

but I suppose, because before it all happened

1:15:30

I wasn't media savvy, I suppose you'd call it.

1:15:34

I definitely wasn't politically minded

1:15:39

and that I'll just let them get

1:15:43

on with their job and I'll do mine.

1:15:45

But after the 10 years I find, what do I call it?

1:15:48

It's like taking off your blinkers, like a horse.

1:15:58

They put, they put blinkers on a horse for a reason.

1:16:02

Say, I can economically say straight ahead.

1:16:04

I wouldn't take them

1:16:08

off all of a sudden, oh my God, there's other things around.

1:16:08

And this is my perception.

1:16:11

I took the blinkers off and then went, oh

1:16:14

hang on a minute, God, this is how the system works.

1:16:17

And ham, I going to incorporate myself and other people

1:16:22

into that system without I suppose

1:16:27

rocking the boat too much.

1:16:32

But then as I say, once a blink is off.

1:16:35

You don't care what boat you're rock

1:16:38

because you try and do the job

1:16:40

the best of you as you can on people's human rights.

1:16:45

I mean, I suppose over the years, it became not only David

1:16:48

they became aware of what's happening to people overseas

1:16:51

and how they're being treated by governments and here

1:16:56

how the government look on there and a dozen items

1:16:59

your eyes, the Americans in science situation

1:17:05

where they comments I would take in the war.

1:17:10

A lot of them didn't want to.

1:17:13

The Australian government was sucked along in the process.

1:17:15

You know, you had the cycle wall business

1:17:20

and the weapons of mass destruction

1:17:25

which they never ever found.

1:17:27

And I think it was an excuse

1:17:29

that the Americans had to do it

1:17:31

that the show them flex the muscles

1:17:34

I suppose you'd call it.

1:17:37

The Australians went along the same system decide, well

1:17:39

we're right behind you.

1:17:42

'Cause we're friends of yours.

1:17:43

And I, over that past 10 years,

1:17:45

I could start to see in that time, how people meld

1:17:48

in these positions to make it look right to them

1:17:54

that other people then on the other side

1:18:00

of the fence can look over and go, well, that's not right.

1:18:03

These are people's lives are playing with, you know,

1:18:05

it's sad that we have many soldiers that were killed

1:18:11

in that cycle war of nothing, nothing's been resolved.

1:18:16

So I suppose it just gives you an Ivo perception

1:18:23

that you know,

1:18:27

really our world at the moment, not good.

1:18:28

And just how we just go.

1:18:32

I just hope there's people out there that have there

1:18:36

that if anything happens the same as what happened with us

1:18:38

they have that resolve to get out and try and change things.

1:18:42

Because I think what happens is it makes people more aware

1:18:45

of people's circumstances, human rights issues,

1:18:48

just the general world in general

1:18:52

that it's at the moment I've seen term wall.

1:18:55

And it's my trust.

1:18:59

-

Well, I wanna thank you.

1:19:02

We, oh man.

1:19:04

Luis has one question.

1:19:05

Moderator

Do you and Dave, if you wouldn't mind,

1:19:07

keep looking at Peter,

1:19:10

do you and David have discussions now about politics and

1:19:12

about philosophy in ways has that you maybe didn't before,

1:19:17

has your relationship with him changed?

1:19:22

You had to--

1:19:28

-

It is strange to say that because I have noticed

1:19:30

with David's at the Miami is perception with governments

1:19:34

and other events, you spoke with David earlier.

1:19:37

He has a very good perspective on events

1:19:44

which actually surprised me because when he was young

1:19:49

he had no interest in that sort of thing.

1:19:54

But now with all the events that have happened

1:19:56

and what he's been through

1:19:59

he's become very aware of governments and other governments.

1:20:00

We don't sit and talk politics the way he talks

1:20:04

about different things that align with politics.

1:20:07

I find him very aware weld laws yeah, right.

1:20:13

God, I said to David the other day, one night to go

1:20:25

to university and study law, you know enough now.

1:20:27

So his, I suppose, in all this time that he's been in cash.

1:20:30

And everything else, he's he's few times out

1:20:37

like when he was in Guantanamo bay

1:20:40

he managed to finish his

1:20:42

'cause he didn't do you do year 12,

1:20:44

did that pass my worries?

1:20:47

Took up a lot of different ratings of what he could,

1:20:49

he's become fully aware of politics

1:20:54

and how it works and how it can work against you.

1:20:59

Hey, probably hopefully try and turn it to help.

1:21:04

Not only himself, but I was say merits.

1:21:08

And I think we're closer than what we were before.

1:21:12

You know, when David was young, though

1:21:17

we did have our differences.

1:21:20

He'd played up along the line.

1:21:22

I've all young blokes did in those days.

1:21:25

But I think now, I suppose, I don't know whether it's

1:21:27

because of what we've done for him,

1:21:34

whether he now has more respect,

1:21:35

but we are close and we can talk

1:21:38

on different issues as best as we know to out loud knowledge

1:21:42

on different things.

1:21:47

But of course his prizes may have, has how away areas

1:21:49

of issues that are happening around the place.

1:21:52

And I don't know whether that's good or bad

1:21:56

but I think at least he's more aware of what's happening.

1:21:58

Interviewer

So you, you see him often.

1:22:08

-

At the moment, then these ivory from Sydney.

1:22:11

So he's not far away so I call him for coffee

1:22:14

and have a chat.

1:22:19

And then we spent two days setting up his laptop to get him

1:22:21

on the internet and the email, and might get easier

1:22:27

for contact with his lawyers, that sort of anxiety.

1:22:32

But I think probably in the next few days

1:22:34

it'll be thinking back on back to Sydney.

1:22:39

Interviewer

Well, I, if there's nothing else

1:22:43

I want to thank you

1:22:45

but we need to take 20 seconds of quiet time where Johnny

1:22:46

the Filmmaker just needs to film 20 seconds.

1:22:49

-

Yeah.

1:22:54

Johnny

Begin Room Tone.

1:22:56

End Room Tone.

1:23:16

-

That was great.

1:23:18

That was really interesting.

1:23:19

Hicks

Thank you.

Hicks,Terry - Interview master file

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