Crosby, Sondra - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Okay, good morning.

0:05

-

Good morning.

0:06

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:08

for participating in the "Witness to Guantanamo Project."

0:09

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:13

and involvement in Guantanamo Bay issues.

0:15

We are hoping to provide you with an opportunity

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to just tell us your story in your own words,

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we are creating an archive of stories so that people

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in America and around the world

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will have a better opportunity of understanding

0:30

what happened in Guantanamo.

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And, future generations must know what happened

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and by telling us your story,

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you're contributing to history.

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And we're very grateful for you being with us today,

0:44

and if there's any time you wanna take a break,

0:48

just let us know.

0:50

And if you say something that you wish

0:51

you hadn't and you want us to remove it, we can do that,

0:53

just let us know that too.

0:55

So I'd like to begin by having you tell us your name

0:57

and place where you were born and the date of your birth,

0:59

and also how old you are now

1:06

and then where you're living now.

1:07

Just that.

1:08

-

All right, my name is Sondra Crosby, I'm a physician,

1:10

licensed in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

1:14

I was born in near Seattle, Washington,

1:16

grew up in Seattle and-

1:20

Interviewer

What year?

1:22

-

And I was born July 9th, 1959.

1:24

I'm 56 years old.

1:27

Interviewer

And can you tell us

1:29

a little about your education?

1:30

-

I went to medical school

1:32

at the University of Washington in Seattle.

1:34

I did my internal medicine resident training

1:36

in Boston at Boston City Hospital.

1:39

Interviewer

And what is your expertise at the moment?

1:42

-

So I am the director of the Immigrant

1:46

and Refugee Health Program at Boston Medical Center.

1:49

And my work primarily focuses on trauma

1:52

and care of torture survivors for the past 20 years.

1:55

Interviewer

And before we get into Guantanamo

1:59

how did you get into that particular (indistinct)?

2:01

-

That's a great question.

2:04

I really just evolved into it.

2:06

I started as a young faculty member, volunteering

2:09

for positions for human rights and got training

2:14

doing forensic evaluations, which has just evolved

2:16

into academic scholarship over the last 20 years.

2:21

Interviewer

And your earliest work, where was that?

2:23

-

My earliest work was locally

2:26

in Boston doing forensic evaluations

2:29

for people who were applying for political asylum

2:32

and alleging torture as a basis for their asylum.

2:35

And I have since traveled and done torture evaluations

2:39

in Bahrain, Krygyzstan and Tajikistan, Kazakhstan

2:43

many African countries and Turkey.

2:49

Interviewer

I mean, overall,

2:53

how do you manage your own life?

2:55

How do you cope with seeing that for 20 years?

2:57

(indistinct)

3:01

-

Yeah, it's, no, it's a great question.

3:02

And certainly this work takes a toll on people.

3:05

And one of the big issues for all of us in this field

3:07

is vicarious trauma or secondary trauma.

3:12

And it's something that we've all experienced

3:15

and have really learned to try to recognize the signs

3:18

and symptoms in ourselves and our colleagues

3:24

and help and try to support each other.

3:26

But it's certainly a looming risk of this work.

3:29

-

And if someone acknowledges or notices in you

3:37

what do they tell you and how do you respond?

3:41

-

There've been times where I've said

3:44

I need to take a break

3:47

from seeing torture survivors and doing these evaluations.

3:49

So for the next three months

3:52

I'm just gonna practice medicine and not do this,

3:54

take a vacation and spend more time with my family,

3:58

read a novel that has been sitting on the shelf

4:01

for two years.

4:04

So there are lots of ways for self-help exercise

4:05

and also very important is just debriefing with colleagues

4:10

and having support groups and having somebody to talk to.

4:15

Interviewer

And if you see yourself,

4:19

I assume you've had nightmares,

4:21

and have you had nightmares?

4:24

-

I have had nightmares.

4:25

Interviewer

And is that assign to you

4:26

that maybe you should back off or is that so common

4:28

that it's not?

4:31

-

No, no, that definitely is a sign

4:32

and I pay attention to that.

4:34

And that is something that is a topic

4:36

of discussion in our support groups.

4:40

And I've had colleagues call me up and say,

4:42

"Look, I'm having nightmares about this."

4:44

And in fact, right now I'm planning with a psychiatrist

4:48

who also does this work kinda an intervention,

4:52

kinda a workshop intervention for all of us.

4:55

So it's an ongoing thing.

4:59

Interviewer

A flashback is part of that too,

5:02

or not as much?

5:04

-

No, no, it's mostly, I think in us

5:05

certainly intrusive thoughts of perhaps things

5:11

we've heard are nightmares, occasionally anxiety, agitation.

5:14

So kind of you start to recognize those things

5:21

in yourself or your family saying

5:23

you're just really off the age, you know what's going on.

5:27

So it's just important to pay attention

5:31

to feedback from people.

5:34

Interviewer

And is this work rewarding for you?

5:36

-

It's absolutely gratifying and rewarding, yes.

5:39

Interviewer

Why is that?

5:43

-

It just gives me a very personal sense

5:47

of gratification to be helping people.

5:50

And there's just nothing more joyful

5:54

than helping somebody work through their trauma

5:59

and come out the other end and be successful.

6:01

Interviewer

How many people do you kinda work?

6:04

How do you know having...

6:07

are there many people do you-

6:10

-

I think there are across different disciplines,

6:11

mental health workers, internists, legal advocates,

6:15

social workers, I think there are many.

6:19

Not so many of us that work with Guantanamo detainees.

6:23

Interviewer

And how did you end up

6:29

working in Guantanamo issues?

6:29

-

Well, again, that just evolved.

6:32

It was not something I saw it.

6:34

And,

6:36

back in approximately 2005,

6:39

a law firm in New York contacted my chairman in Health Law,

6:42

Bioethics and Human Rights in the School of Public Health.

6:47

Interviewer

His name?

6:51

-

George Annas, Professor George Annas

6:52

and asked if he would be willing to look

6:54

at some medical records of their client

6:59

who at that time was a hunger striker in Guantanamo.

7:01

And professor Annas is really a legal expert

7:03

on hunger strikes and has been writing about them for years.

7:08

So he accepted look at the records

7:11

but actually they gave them to me (laughing)

7:15

which is how things work in academics.

7:17

And they were horrifying.

7:20

These were medical records of hunger strikers.

7:23

And so we gave the lawyer's feedback

7:26

about what we thought were violations

7:29

that were being committed based on the medical records.

7:34

And eventually about three years later,

7:38

I actually made my first trip

7:42

to Guantanamo to see a hunger striker.

7:43

Interviewer

Could you give us a little background?

7:46

What made the medical records horrifying?

7:47

-

Well, the promise of informed consent

7:51

for any medical treatment was completely violated.

7:56

Medical treatment and force-feeding was being imposed

8:02

on people without their consent, but it was also being done

8:06

in a brutal way with restraints and forced cell extractions

8:09

and painful placement of nasal gastric tubes.

8:16

Interviewer

Did you know anything

8:20

about force-feeding before you were put into this?

8:22

-

So my chairman Professor Annas certainly

8:26

was a legal scholar on force-feeding, but before this, no.

8:28

I knew nothing about force-feeding

8:32

but I learned very quickly.

8:33

Interviewer

And was it horrifying to you

8:36

from the beginning even though you knew nothing?

8:37

It just seemed horrible-

8:40

-

It was, I mean, as a physician

8:40

and an ethicist, I mean, that's just one

8:45

of the basic premises of medicine

8:47

is informed consent.

8:49

Interviewer

And did you know anything

8:54

about Guantanamo at all before Professor Annas came to you?

8:55

-

I certainly I did,

9:00

but I had not seen medical records

9:03

or had been involved in this kind of way before it started.

9:07

Interviewer

What was your role

9:11

in reviewing the medical records?

9:12

What do they want from you?

9:13

-

What they wanted was an opinion

9:15

as to were there any violations being committed

9:18

against our client in our opinion,

9:22

or what was my opinion of the medical care?

9:24

They were concerned clearly about the force-feeding.

9:27

Interviewer

And when you went to Guantanamo

9:31

few years later, was it on the same issue or was it?

9:33

-

Initially, so I've been to Guantanamo over a dozen times,

9:37

maybe 15 times.

9:44

And my first visit was to see a hunger striker

9:45

and to do a medical evaluation.

9:51

And also to assess whether or not

9:55

I thought the hunger striker had capacity

9:59

to make medical decisions.

10:03

Whether he was competent to make his own medical decisions.

10:04

Interviewer

How long they've been on a hunger strike?

10:08

-

This first time and I saw had been on a hunger strike

10:12

at the time, probably for three or four years.

10:20

However, by the time he has been transferred

10:23

to Saudi Arabia recently.

10:26

And so he was on a hunger strike for over eight years.

10:28

Interviewer

And what was your sense

10:32

when you first came to Guantanamo and saw them?

10:34

-

Guantanamo is a surreal sort of place (laughing).

10:40

We like to call it Alice in Wonderland,

10:43

you just never know what you're gonna see.

10:45

I was actually very impressed with their detainees inside

10:50

and knowledge of how his rights had been violated

10:58

at Guantanamo.

11:02

And as it turns out, the pictures never

11:03

completely black and white,

11:08

he was not suicidal.

11:10

He did not want to die.

11:11

He was protesting the conditions at Guantanamo,

11:13

his illegal detention

11:17

and violation of the Geneva conventions

11:19

and it all made sense.

11:23

Interviewer

So, maybe I'll back up a little bit

11:26

since you said that Guantanamo is like Alice in Wonderland,

11:30

what was it when you first stepped off a plane?

11:32

What did it seem to you?

11:34

Why was it so surreal to you when you went to a camp?

11:36

I mean, just the whole first impression.

11:40

-

The whole first impression was surreal.

11:42

The camp,

11:46

the guards,

11:53

the fact that the rules

11:56

change on a daily basis,

11:59

You just never really know what the rules are that day.

12:01

And I think I really felt that sense

12:04

of people working in Guantanamo

12:09

were all convinced that these men

12:14

who were being detained were the worst of the worst.

12:17

They were really like Superman and could not like eat

12:20

through steel bars and they were just poised to kill you

12:24

at any second if you turned your back.

12:28

And there was this paranoia

12:30

and it just seemed just fantastical.

12:33

Interviewer

Were you afraid?

12:39

-

I was afraid of the guards (laughing) not the detainees.

12:40

Interviewer

Were you not afraid of detainees,

12:44

you ever heard that they would eat you alive?

12:45

(indistinct)

12:48

-

I'm a physician,

12:50

I've been a physician for a long time.

12:51

I've cared for prisoners.

12:53

we have...

12:55

you just get a sense of your personal safety with somebody.

12:56

And I've certainly cared for people

12:59

in my hospital that I felt for my personal safety.

13:01

And I was glad there was a guard there and shackles.

13:07

The man I met in Guantanamo,

13:11

I think I was able to establish rapport

13:14

and a relationship with,

13:16

and they're just...

13:18

there was no fear at all.

13:23

And so there was just a huge disconnect as-

13:25

Interviewer

And so when you first came on your way

13:32

to Guantanamo you didn't have that fear either.

13:34

You didn't expect.

13:37

-

I didn't know what to expect.

13:38

So certainly I was anxious

13:40

on that very first time walking

13:42

into the meeting room with the first detainee,

13:44

I was anxious.

13:48

I didn't know what to expect.

13:49

Interviewer

And why were you afraid of the guards?

13:51

-

So, you have a detainee who's been on hunger strike,

13:56

weighs 90 pounds, using a walker

14:02

because he's so weak.

14:04

And you have 15 guards,

14:06

these big Marines (laughing) around

14:08

and they just looked much scarier than this poor detainees.

14:12

And they were all convinced

14:20

these men were gonna kill them at any second.

14:23

Interviewer

And your job there was to write up a report.

14:29

-

So I've had different jobs there.

14:33

So initially, the lawyers for this first client,

14:36

their client wanted a medical report.

14:42

What was this health like?

14:45

What was this mental health like?

14:47

And were there any recommendations

14:49

for managing hunger strikes?

14:51

So I've also...

14:54

and subsequently I've gone to see other detainees

14:57

with slightly different objectives.

15:00

Interviewer

Such as?

15:05

-

So currently I'm on the defense team

15:05

of one of the high value detainees.

15:08

And, although initially I was asked

15:10

to do a medical evaluation,

15:13

I continue to see him

15:15

and actually provide ongoing support and counseling to him.

15:16

Interviewer

What does support counseling mean?

15:21

What does that mean?

15:24

Supportive counseling.

15:25

-

Supportive counseling, just counseling.

15:27

So he has somebody to talk to

15:30

and I can help him manage

15:32

some of his mental health symptoms.

15:35

Interviewer

You are training as a psychiatrist too?

15:39

-

I'm an internist.

15:43

I do not have formal training in psychiatry

15:45

but my medical practice in Boston is 80% torture survivors.

15:47

And most of that mental health has done in my clinic

15:53

perhaps with the help of a social worker.

15:56

So I do a lot of supportive counseling

15:58

and direct treatment of PTSD and depression

16:01

in my own practice, which is pretty common.

16:04

Most mental health is actually done in the states

16:07

by internist family practice, adolescent medicine doctors.

16:12

Interviewer

And would you say you saw similar symptoms?

16:17

You said they were slightly different than the work you did

16:20

but are there same symptoms throughout

16:22

or do you see they're different symptoms

16:24

among the men that you work with?

16:26

-

I think the men in Guantanamo

16:29

that I've seen are profoundly damaged.

16:32

And I think it's really a level above what I...

16:36

it's quite a bit above what I see in my own practice.

16:39

And part of that is because the men in Guantanamo

16:43

are still continually being traumatized and triggered.

16:48

People I see in my practice are primarily,

16:52

have escaped their trauma

16:54

and are living in a safe and relatively safer environment.

16:56

Interviewer

So do you have a different approach

17:00

in how to counsel these men

17:03

if they're continually being damaged?

17:05

-

It's difficult.

17:08

I mean, this is an ongoing problem at Guantanamo,

17:09

is that these men are profoundly damaged

17:14

to have a lot of mental health symptoms.

17:18

There is not adequate ongoing support and treatment

17:20

from Guantanamo.

17:24

And although they do have psychiatrists

17:26

and a behavioral health unit,

17:28

the detainees don't trust the doctors there.

17:30

And as you know, both mental health

17:33

and physical health or physicians, psychiatrists,

17:37

psychologists were involved in interrogations

17:40

and in the torture program.

17:43

And once that trust has been eroded in the profession,

17:45

you just can't get it back.

17:48

So even though the current doctors at Guantanamo

17:50

were never involved in interrogations,

17:53

that legacy still lives on.

17:56

And many of the detainees do not trust the doctors.

17:58

Interviewer

Do the detainees

18:02

become dependent on you because of that?

18:03

-

That's a good question.

18:09

I think there's one man that I'm seeing

18:10

that I see on a regular basis.

18:13

Well, it's probably true.

18:18

Interviewer

Why would it not be true

18:20

for the others, you didn't see him that often

18:21

or some of them have some inner strength

18:23

they don't need to be dependent on you or?

18:26

-

Well, no, I can't live down at Guantanamo

18:28

and see people continuously.

18:32

So it depends on what the objective,

18:34

what the lawyers asked me to do.

18:36

And oftentimes it's a medical evaluation

18:38

and then making recommendations

18:41

to the lawyers or to the Guantanamo doctors.

18:44

And I have written up treatment plans

18:47

for hunger strikers in particular

18:50

and for the Guantanamo doctors,

18:52

most of whom I've never dealt with hunger strikes before.

18:55

Interviewer

Well, you're looking at both sides.

19:01

So if you had a treatment plan

19:04

for Guantanamo doctors, who asks you to do that?

19:05

Did the lawyers ask you?

19:08

Did the doctors?

19:08

-

Oh, the lawyers,

19:10

Well, it's really my ethical obligation.

19:12

If I see something I think is wrong,

19:15

I write up a treatment plan.

19:17

I give it to the lawyers

19:18

but I also give it to the Guantanamo medical staff.

19:19

Interviewer

And do they follow those you know?

19:24

-

They've read them

19:27

and I would have to say probably they don't follow them

19:29

but it's still in the record

19:32

that these recommendations have been made.

19:35

I've even actually gone as far as giving my recommendations

19:38

to the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs

19:42

when I become frustrated.

19:46

Interviewer

What kind of responses do you get

19:48

when you gave it to doctors or the assistant director?

19:49

-

Well, I mean, I think it's mixed.

19:53

I think on one hand the doctors appreciate input and help

19:58

because I think many of them at Guantanamo

20:01

are inexperienced,

20:04

obviously on the other hand

20:06

the military doesn't want people interfering

20:07

and telling them what to do.

20:10

So-

20:11

Interviewer

So the pushback doesn't bother you.

20:12

You used to continue to do it regardless.

20:14

-

Right?

20:16

Interviewer

Why?

-

'Cause it's the right thing to do.

20:18

Interviewer

And what response did you get

20:21

from higher officials?

20:23

Do they basically not even respond or?

20:24

-

No, I would have to say the assistant secretary of defense

20:28

has been most gracious and thankful for help,

20:31

although it's not clear that anything really happens

20:37

in response to what I've done.

20:41

Interviewer

And what about with the lawyers

20:44

do with these reports and recommendations you make?

20:45

What-

20:49

-

They use them as part of their habeas cases

20:50

in legal proceedings.

20:52

Interviewer

And do you ever testify in those?

20:55

-

I do.

20:57

So I've testified in, well, I provided written testimony

20:58

for multiple cases at Guantanamo

21:04

and some of those would include things like my opinion

21:08

about the inadequacy of medical care for a specific detainee

21:14

to plan for hunger strikes,

21:20

for how to manage a particular detainee on hunger strikes

21:23

to mental health treatment

21:27

that might be needed.

21:32

I have also testified orally in the military commissions

21:33

for the defense of Mr. al Nashiri, the man accused

21:38

of allegedly masterminding the USS Cole bombing.

21:43

And in that testimony, which is public,

21:50

I testified that in my opinion

21:53

he'd been tortured physically, psychologically and sexually

21:56

and was suffering from severe consequences of that torture.

22:01

I also testified in the case of Mr. Diab,

22:06

who was the first man to successfully bring his case

22:11

force-feeding to federal court.

22:15

And we actually lost in that case,

22:18

but it was still very important because all of the testimony

22:21

was made public.

22:25

And this is the first time that the public

22:25

was given access to what is happening

22:28

with the hunger strikes.

22:31

And unfortunately though,

22:33

we are still waiting for videotapes

22:36

of the force-feeding to be released in that case.

22:39

Interviewer

You say Lost.

22:42

What does that mean?

22:43

-

That means that Judge Kessler

22:44

did not rule in favor of Mr. Diab,

22:48

deliberate indifference to medical care

22:55

and allowed the force-feeding to continue.

22:57

And that force-feeding is a difficult subject

23:01

and very complicated.

23:05

And on one hand the government doesn't want people

23:07

to commit suicide, but hunger strikers are not suicidal.

23:10

They are peacefully protesting some cause

23:16

that they're willing to die for if necessary.

23:20

So unfortunately, as I said, Mr Diab lost that case,

23:24

but I still think it it was positive

23:29

in that so much information came out

23:33

and Judge Kessler publicly acknowledged the poor quality

23:35

of medical care that Mr. Diab was receiving.

23:39

Interviewer

Could you tell us just for the record

23:42

what causes you've heard the detainees express

23:45

when they said they were on hunger strike?

23:49

You said their causes, the different reasons

23:52

why they go on a hunger strike.

23:54

What reasons have they told you?

23:56

-

So the detainees that I've seen on hunger strike

23:58

are usually hunger striking because of their...

24:02

they believe they've been illegally detained.

24:10

They believe Geneva conventions have been violated.

24:13

They feel that religion has been disrespected.

24:16

Their conditions of confinement,

24:19

I would say were the big causes of the Guantanamo detainees.

24:23

Interviewer

If you saw someone who is,

24:29

let's say 90 pounds perhaps even low in weight

24:33

and maybe is near death,

24:37

would you recommend that they eat?

24:40

Would you do that?

24:41

Is that part of your job?

24:43

-

So, no, that is not part of my job.

24:44

And I've seen hunger strikers

24:48

who have been at very low weights

24:50

and what my job is is to inform them

24:52

of the consequences of the hunger strike

24:57

and make sure they understand the medical risks

25:00

of what they're doing to try to determine

25:03

what they would want done

25:06

in case they were to lose consciousness

25:08

or would be unable to make decisions for themselves.

25:10

And they need people,

25:14

need to be allowed to make their own decisions

25:17

about medical care and feeding is part of that.

25:19

Interviewer

Are there long-term medical risks

25:22

that you informed them on, separate from the risk

25:25

of dying if they don't need?

25:29

Are there longer term medical risks?

25:31

-

Yes, and I think we're gonna be seeing

25:33

some of that in the hunger strikers,

25:38

you can do longterm damage to your GI tract,

25:40

with longterm hunger striking.

25:44

And I think one of the big questions in my mind

25:46

is neurocognitive defects that can occur over time

25:49

with prolonged malnutrition.

25:53

And those have certainly been described,

25:56

but not extensively.

25:59

Interviewer

Would you inform a detainee

26:02

of that of either one of those

26:04

if he continues on his hunger strike?

26:07

-

Yes, absolutely.

26:09

Interviewer

One detainee told us that he lost his sense

26:10

of smell after being on a hunger strike for seven years.

26:12

Is that something you've observed?

26:16

-

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

26:18

Interviewer

And they would be informed of that.

26:22

So that is part of what you do.

26:23

-

So, I would go through organ by organ.

26:25

Like these are the things that can happen.

26:29

These are the symptoms that you can have.

26:31

And some of them can be very unpleasant

26:33

with abdominal pain, vertigo,

26:35

irreversible neurological damage, et cetera.

26:40

Interviewer

Have you ever seen a detainee switch

26:43

and start eating again after they've met with you?

26:46

-

In most cases of hunger strikes,

26:51

detainees do not wanna die.

26:53

They want their cause to be heard.

26:55

And so it's complicated.

26:57

So there's many detainees, well, except enteral nutrition

27:03

which is not the same as force-feeding.

27:09

They will say, "I don't wanna die.

27:11

You can put a tube in and feed me, but I'm not gonna eat."

27:13

And they'll actually accept the tube.

27:17

And so that's not force-feeding,

27:20

that's actually voluntary artificially being fed

27:22

and most of them will accept that.

27:29

Interviewer

What about the tubes?

27:33

The tubes have gotten apparently so red thicker

27:35

as the years have gone on.

27:38

Have you heard that?

27:39

Is that true?

27:40

And does that matter?

27:41

-

The tubes have-

27:43

Interviewer

They've become thicker and the tubes

27:44

used to be thinner when they first inserted them

27:47

in the early days and they've gotten larger

27:50

and larger and therefore more uncomfortable as they-

27:53

-

Oh, I think that's individual.

27:56

And I actually, in my experience

27:59

that's a little bit reversed.

28:01

I think initially with the hunger strikes back in 2005

28:02

when they ordered those chairs to go down to Guantanamo,

28:05

I think they really intended to break the hunger strikes.

28:10

And I think they were using larger tubes then.

28:13

And what I've seen more recently is more reasonably

28:16

and appropriately sized tubes.

28:20

Interviewer

Have you seen people

28:24

who had tried to commit suicide?

28:26

Have you worked with any people like that?

28:29

-

I have worked with people

28:32

who have previously had suicide attempts, yes.

28:34

Interviewer

And how do you deal

28:38

with that kind of person?

28:40

-

It's never easy.

28:45

And as I said,

28:46

the burden of mental health symptoms in Guantanamo is great

28:48

and people really are not getting adequate treatment

28:51

for a variety of reasons.

28:56

So,

28:58

yeah, I mean, there just isn't any easy answers.

29:03

Interviewer

Would you counsel someone

29:07

who tried to commit suicide and hopefully convince them

29:08

that it's not, I don't know,

29:12

do you have a position on that?

29:13

Would you try to counsel them not to do it again?

29:17

Or would you let them do it again or-

29:20

-

To commit suicide?

29:22

So if they're depressed to the point of committing suicide,

29:22

that's like an emergency and they would need to be

29:26

in the psychiatric unit of the Guantanamo Hospital.

29:29

Interviewer

Is that what you would recommend?

29:35

-

That's what I would recommend if that.

29:36

Interviewer

If they don't follow up for you,

29:38

what would you do

29:40

or do they follow through when you recommend that?

29:41

-

Yeah, so I've not been in a position

29:44

where somebody was acutely suicidal.

29:46

It's mostly been, they've had suicide attempts in the past

29:48

but at the time I see them, they are not actually suicidal.

29:51

If someone were to tell me they wanted to commit suicide,

29:56

I would absolutely have them moved.

29:58

Interviewer

And the fact that they had suicidal attempts

30:01

in the past, what does that mean to you

30:04

when you meet with them or you're afraid

30:05

they'll do it again?

30:06

-

Certainly they're at risk,

30:09

but I think that's just the kind of the gloom of Guantanamo,

30:10

is the despair and hopelessness of people staying there.

30:15

People have been there now 15 years without charges,

30:20

without any hope of release.

30:23

So, I mean, it's not surprising

30:26

that rates of depression are very, very high.

30:29

Interviewer

I'm not sure that...

30:36

so what does that mean then?

30:37

So, essentially it's expected,

30:39

it's almost like you expect

30:41

that somebody might have continued

30:43

to have suicidal tendencies

30:44

because the life is so miserable there.

30:46

-

It's not surprising.

30:50

Yeah, it would not be surprising.

30:51

Interviewer

And there's not much you can do

30:53

about that I guess, unless you see an emergency situation

30:54

where it might be apparently imminent.

30:57

-

That's correct.

31:00

Interviewer

Are there other specific medical situations

31:04

you've dealt with besides suicides and force-feeding?

31:07

I know you've mentioned mental health

31:11

but that's very general.

31:12

Others specific situations

31:13

that maybe the audience might be interested in.

31:15

-

Well, I think what else is important

31:20

is that Guantanamo is a remote site

31:23

and although they have a detention hospital

31:27

and an able hospital,

31:30

they do not have sophisticated medical care

31:31

for every situation

31:35

despite what the department of defense has,

31:37

the best medical care in the world.

31:39

And we're seeing now an aging population

31:41

who are developing chronical medical problems.

31:45

And for instance, there's no MRI machine.

31:47

And we have patients down in Guantanamo who need an MRI.

31:51

We don't have the capacity

31:57

to do sophisticated cardiac studies.

31:59

And people in Guantanamo are now developing cardiac disease

32:03

and need these studies.

32:07

So standard of medical care is just not available

32:08

at Guantanamo.

32:13

And as people know, there is a congressional block

32:15

from actually moving people stateside

32:19

even for emergency medical care.

32:22

So those are issues I've dealt with on a one by one basis

32:24

where I've encountered a detainee

32:29

whose medical needs cannot be met at Guantanamo.

32:31

And so they're just allowed to continue

32:34

to get progressively more ill.

32:36

Interviewer

How many detainees

32:40

have you spoken to in Guantanamo or what were...

32:41

just to get a sense on-

32:47

-

So,

32:48

that's a good question.

32:52

So, initially,

32:53

but I've never actually counted.

32:58

So before I even went to Guantanamo,

32:59

I evaluated 11 men in Istanbul, Turkey

33:02

who had been held in Abu Ghraib prison and Guantanamo.

33:08

So these were all people who had been horribly tortured

33:12

including sodomized with rifle butts and broomsticks

33:15

who are now just disenfranchised,

33:20

could not reintegrate in their communities

33:23

and were suffering horrible mental health symptoms.

33:25

And that was really the first published report

33:28

of the medical consequences of torture.

33:32

So that was 11 men.

33:35

I've then seen three men who'd been,

33:37

on a one by one basis,

33:41

who'd been released from Guantanamo

33:42

who were living in various parts of the world.

33:44

And I think I've seen six men actually in Guantanamo.

33:47

So a little less than 20, I guess.

33:53

Interviewer

Would you say Guantanamo was a unique study

33:58

that from your work over 20 years,

34:01

Guantanamo is somewhat unique from other people's work,

34:04

not just from your own in terms of how one looks

34:09

at the both medical?

34:14

-

I think it is.

34:17

I think it's certainly unique in my 20 years of experience.

34:18

And in talking to colleagues, I think there's just a...

34:23

there's been so much trauma done to these men,

34:29

many of which is public with the executive summary

34:31

of the Senate Torture Report that was released in 2014

34:34

and perhaps the high level of trauma, the culture,

34:40

the religion, just so many things mixed together

34:45

I think make it very unique.

34:48

And a lot of these men,

34:51

I mean, they really believe in their cultures

35:01

and just quite frankly, they're likable people.

35:03

And, but their level of trauma is so high

35:07

and it's really hard to know how to treat it.

35:13

And especially in the context of ongoing trauma.

35:15

Just being in Guantanamo is a trigger

35:22

for mental health symptoms.

35:25

And so it's hard to...

35:27

the first tenet of treating trauma

35:31

is to provide a safe environment.

35:33

And none of these men are in a safe environment.

35:35

They can be triggered by a sound, a rattle or a chain,

35:38

somebody's clothing or wristwatch, a noise, a smell.

35:44

And it's just, it's ongoing.

35:48

And it brings them back to the torture

35:50

that was occurring early on.

35:53

Interviewer

Have you dealt with men

35:56

who've been put in isolation for more than 30 days

35:58

for a long periods of time?

36:01

-

Oh, absolutely.

36:02

Interviewer

And how does that play out with-

36:03

-

Oh, isolation, as we know is, I mean,

36:06

the special repertoire and torture

36:10

is called isolation torture, which it is,

36:13

and isolation is common in Guantanamo

36:18

and certainly results in profound mental health symptoms,

36:22

psychosis, anxiety, depression, hallucinations.

36:27

Interviewer

Is that why you would call it torture

36:34

because of those effects?

36:38

-

Yes, yeah.

36:39

Interviewer

And if someone from your own study,

36:41

if someone has been in isolation for more than 30 days,

36:45

even more than 15 days, do you see a difference?

36:48

Can they return if they leave Guantanamo?

36:53

Can they help improve?

36:59

I mean, after you've been in isolation

37:02

for that length of time?

37:04

-

I don't know that I'm an expert to answer that adequately.

37:06

I think reintegrating into society after Guantanamo

37:12

is very, very difficult for people

37:18

because of the trauma that they've suffered.

37:20

Interviewer

No matter what kind of trauma-

37:23

-

No matter what kind of trauma.

37:24

Interviewer

why is that?

37:25

-

They are damaged with post-traumatic stress disorder,

37:31

with depression,

37:37

they've had social isolation,

37:39

they don't know how to integrate with people,

37:41

they've lost their ability to work,

37:46

just to even function.

37:50

So in my experience,

37:52

I would say that people released from Guantanamo

37:56

need a rehabilitation program,

37:59

a comprehensive rehabilitation program,

38:03

and that would include not only mental health treatment

38:06

and counseling, it would include family counseling.

38:13

So family members can learn to work together.

38:16

It would include job training and reintegration into society

38:19

and whatever else is necessary to a specific situation.

38:25

And I did see something like that in Saudi Arabia

38:29

of all places, their terrorist rehabilitation program,

38:32

they've had 123 people from Guantanamo

38:38

go through it already

38:41

and it's a holistic approach where they take these men

38:43

and put them in this resort like area.

38:48

I mean, it it's confined

38:51

but it's a beautiful resort like area.

38:52

And they provide religious counseling, religious education,

38:55

mental health, medical care, job training.

39:00

They're allowed to take university courses

39:04

and they do family counseling.

39:07

They have families come in and then help them in.

39:09

So that kind of holistic approach I think

39:12

is what is necessary to help these men recover.

39:14

Interviewer

Can you describe

39:17

what family counseling entails?

39:18

What does that mean?

39:21

-

I'm not an expert on family counseling

39:22

but what that would mean

39:24

is they bring the family members together

39:25

and talk about the difficulties of reintegrating

39:28

and how the family members can help one another

39:32

and education, psychoeducation of the family members.

39:36

This is what your father, your son has been through

39:39

and this is what he's gonna need,

39:42

and this is what you can expect.

39:44

And this is how you can help him.

39:45

Interviewer

Have you done any of that

39:48

or observed it because sometimes I find families

39:49

don't really want to know what happened to their loved one.

39:53

-

Well, you don't need to know what happened to them

39:57

in order to do this.

39:59

So I agree, and I don't think it's necessary

40:02

that family members know the details of what has happened

40:05

but certainly they need to know

40:10

that there are family members had a very rough time

40:12

and it's gonna need help getting back into the family

40:14

Interviewer

Has anyone or any country

40:17

or any organization or NGO or whatever,

40:19

asked you to set out a plan or help a detainee

40:21

when he leaves Guantanamo so that he can resettle

40:25

and reintegrate into his new environment?

40:29

-

That's politically very tricky.

40:36

And no, I've not had the opportunity to do that.

40:39

Although I have visited detainees after release

40:45

who are having a very difficult time and have helped them

40:49

to get resources that they needed for their immediate needs.

40:54

But that's like putting a band-aid on a big gaping wound.

40:57

It doesn't really-

41:01

Interviewer

Are these sources that are private resources

41:02

separate from the government?

41:05

-

Absolutely.

41:06

So I've received...

41:07

I've had resources from NGOs,

41:09

from the United Nations Voluntary Torture Fund

41:12

and other places.

41:15

So, no, I've never had government provided funds

41:18

for rehabilitation.

41:23

Interviewer

Would you say that's more than norm

41:27

that when detainees are released to host countries

41:30

or their countries

41:33

they're pretty much left to their own devices?

41:34

Is that what you've observed?

41:36

-

That's been my experience and I certainly don't have

41:38

intimate knowledge of every single detainee

41:41

that's been released from Guantanamo or other sites,

41:43

but the ones that I have seen

41:47

have been in pretty dire circumstances.

41:48

Interviewer

And have you seen any detainees

41:52

return to the home like the one that's Saudi Arabia separate

41:55

from that anyone else's returned to their homeland

41:57

and do they get better treatment

42:00

and medical care or family counseling or whatever?

42:02

-

Yeah, it depends on the...

42:05

it really depends on the country.

42:07

And so certainly I think it's helpful

42:09

to be returned to your homeland

42:15

where you have culture and roots and language and family.

42:16

But for instance,

42:21

I saw a man returned to an African country

42:22

where his family lived and where he had roots,

42:26

but there's just no medical care

42:28

or psychologic counseling available.

42:30

So he was still suffering

42:32

just because the care wasn't available in that country,

42:37

it was a poor country.

42:39

Interviewer

Have you picked up on discrimination

42:41

against the person who returns

42:44

whether to a host country or transformed country

42:46

by the fact that they weren't going Guantanamo?

42:48

-

I've certainly been told of stigma

42:50

and people not wanting to associate

42:54

with somebody who's been in Guantanamo.

42:56

And people worried about their safety because of that.

42:59

I don't know if it's real or not

43:03

but certainly that's a perception

43:04

on the part of some detainees, ex-detainees.

43:05

Interviewer

So if ever some enlightened president

43:09

came into office in the US and asked you

43:13

for a recommendation as to what to do with the detainees

43:16

when they're released,

43:19

what would you recommend to them?

43:21

-

I would recommend that the US needs to fund

43:23

a comprehensive rehabilitation program

43:30

as outlined in the Convention Against Torture, Article 14

43:33

and that would include a holistic program

43:38

sort of what the Saudis have put together

43:42

which would be mental health,

43:44

physical health, family counseling,

43:47

reintegration into society, job training,

43:50

and follow-up care.

43:54

And I think that's actually what the US

43:56

needs to be providing to people.

43:59

Interviewer

Do you know what the US does provide people

44:01

when they're sent...

44:03

when they're transferred to other countries?

44:04

(Sondra laughing)

44:06

-

I am not an expert on that.

44:08

I can tell you that my observations is

44:11

that they really don't provide very much at all.

44:14

And certainly I know that there are deals with countries

44:16

to except detainees but I have not seen a lot of benefit

44:21

that actually the detainee, ex-detainee gets.

44:26

Interviewer

I just wanted to...

44:33

there's another term that's been used

44:34

for some of the detainees have suffered

44:36

and in fact, I don't know

44:38

if you've worked with any of the...

44:39

with Jose Padilla.

44:41

Did you work with Jose Padilla at all?

44:42

-

I did not.

44:44

Interviewer

Okay, well, some men

44:44

have been sensory deprived.

44:46

Do you see that as a separate concern from isolation

44:49

or from other mental health issues?

44:55

And have you heard about that or just

44:56

I'm not sure what,

44:59

I know what sensory-deprived means to me

45:01

but I'm just curious to how you see it

45:02

and whether you've seen that in Guantanamo.

45:04

-

Well, I've certainly seen it in people held in US custody.

45:07

And as people know, the interrogation program

45:10

which we know is torture now,

45:18

involved many, many different techniques

45:21

that were all used simultaneously

45:23

in order to maximize harm

45:26

and to break down resistance of their detainees

45:28

and sensory deprivation is part of a larger picture.

45:33

And what I've seen is just disorientation

45:36

by either keeping people blindfolded

45:43

with earmuffs on, or keeping the lights on all the time

45:47

where they don't know what time of day it is,

45:50

keeping them in isolation.

45:55

So that never occurs by itself,

45:59

that occurs with nakedness, with poor stress positions,

46:02

with threats and so it's all a big picture

46:06

that was orchestrated to maximize harm to the detainees.

46:11

Interviewer

I mean, how will the US

46:17

look at Guantanamo 20 years from now?

46:20

-

I think it is horrifying already.

46:23

And I think it will be even more horrifying in 20 years.

46:26

I mean, look how long it took for the US to apologize

46:30

after the Japanese internment,

46:33

it's whether Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments,

46:35

I think this is just gonna be a horrifying stain

46:42

on our history.

46:46

Interviewer

When you said you worked

46:51

at the Department of Defense,

46:52

what did you do for them?

46:53

-

So as part of my work in the School of Public Health,

46:56

the Center for Bioethics,

47:04

I have worked with Professor George Annas

47:07

as consulting on medical ethics issues in detention centers.

47:11

So simultaneously with working

47:16

on specific detainee cases at Guantanamo,

47:18

Professor Annas and I have met

47:22

with the Assistant Secretary of Defense

47:23

and other military bioethicists and leaders

47:26

including the army surgeon general on medical ethics issues

47:30

related to detainee care.

47:35

Interviewer

So you met in Guantanamo or to other?

47:38

-

Well in general, but yes,

47:40

Guantanamo is always a kind of a lightning rod,

47:42

but it really applies to all us military detention centers.

47:45

Interviewer

So you would be working on both sides,

47:50

both with lawyers representing detainees

47:53

and work for government.

47:55

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

And is that beneficial to both?

47:58

-

I think so, yeah.

48:03

I mean, I have a lot of respect

48:05

for the Health Affairs and I think they genuinely

48:07

want to do the right thing.

48:14

The assistant secretary had put together a committee

48:17

to write medical ethics,

48:22

to kinda rewrite recommendations for medical ethics

48:24

for the Department of Defense

48:27

which is in the final stages now.

48:30

But I think you have to work with both sides

48:33

I think in order to make progress and change.

48:37

Interviewer

Some attorneys have told me

48:41

they've tried to get access

48:42

to their client's medical records

48:43

and they haven't been able to.

48:44

Have you heard that?

48:46

-

That it has been a huge issue

48:47

and a very frustrating one.

48:50

So obviously looking at medical records

48:52

is a very important part of what I do

48:56

and part of my evaluation of any patient in any setting.

48:58

And in some cases,

49:03

the attorneys have been able to get court orders

49:05

to have medical records released to them.

49:09

In which case I am able to see the records.

49:11

And in other cases, the Guantanamo

49:14

or whoever has the say that will refuse to release records

49:20

even like citing HIPAA which is quite incredible.

49:26

When detainees have given permission for their lawyers,

49:30

they have access to the records.

49:33

And a very frustrating case happened last year.

49:35

And that was the case of a man who was on a hunger strike

49:40

and weighed 74 pounds.

49:44

And I felt was probably very close to death.

49:47

And I wanted to see his medical records

49:50

and Guantanamo refused to release them to his attorneys

49:52

despite the fact the man wanted commanded his own records

49:55

and wanted them released to his attorneys.

49:59

Interviewer

What's the government's argument?

50:01

-

HIPAA.

50:03

Interviewer

That is the-

50:04

(Sondra laughing)

50:05

-

So it's always been a struggle

50:07

or in many other cases, it's been a struggle

50:12

and we may eventually get the records

50:15

but in other cases we haven't.

50:16

So-

50:19

Interviewer

And when you meet with the DOD,

50:20

you to bring that issue up with them?

50:22

-

Yeah, I don't know that I...

50:28

that's usually up to the lawyers,

50:32

you don't actually interface with the DOD.

50:36

Interviewer

Is Professor Annas also advocate?

50:37

Do you consider yourself an advocate?

50:41

-

That's a good question.

50:45

I mean, I guess all physicians are advocates on some level.

50:48

Interviewer

And is Professor Annas an advocate?

50:53

Would you say he does the work that you do

50:57

or he stands behind you or what's?

51:01

-

He's really a leading bioethicist in the country

51:03

and has focused a lot of his scholarly work

51:08

on the ethics of military medicine

51:12

Interviewer

And he supports you in your work?

51:15

-

He does, yes.

51:17

Interviewer

So you feel supported?

51:18

-

I do feel supported by a Professor Annas, yes (laughing).

51:21

I mean, what I do certainly it's controversial

51:28

and I think there are people on both sides of the fence

51:32

and I have been accused of supporting terrorists

51:37

and I think it's politically hard.

51:42

And for institutions I think also it's politically hard.

51:45

Interviewer

Do you respond when people accuse you

51:49

of supporting terrorists

51:51

or you just left them be who they are?

51:52

-

Yeah (laughing).

51:55

Interviewer

Can you work with Abu Ghraib

51:57

and I don't really wanna go into,

51:58

it's not really part of the mission here?

51:59

When you worked at Abu Ghraib,

52:01

did you find some distinction there with the men you studied

52:02

as opposed to the men in Guantanamo or?

52:09

-

So actually some of that group of 11 men I alluded to,

52:12

some of them actually had been in Guantanamo

52:15

as well as Abu Ghraib.

52:17

But what do you mean by distinction?

52:18

Interviewer

Well, I mean, the world knows a lot more

52:20

about how the men were treated in Abu Ghraib

52:23

because of the photographs and they do in Guantanamo.

52:25

Would you say that's a different kinda trauma

52:29

or really it's all pretty much the same kind.

52:31

The trauma that results is not all that different from-

52:35

-

I would say though the men I saw

52:40

in that project were heavily traumatized,

52:43

they were held in months, one to two years.

52:46

So this is not 15 years of indefinite detention.

52:53

So I think that was a major distinction.

52:56

The actual types of trauma,

52:59

I think were not all that different,

53:00

but the the length of time

53:03

I think made a big a big difference.

53:06

Interviewer

So like the time really makes a difference.

53:07

I just want to emphasize that.

53:09

-

Yes, it does absolutely.

53:10

And especially with indefinite detention

53:11

you just don't know the uncertainty.

53:13

That's a whole new level of stress.

53:18

Interviewer

I think we need to stop for a moment.

53:21

The lights flashing.

53:23

Johnny

Here we're going.

53:25

Interviewer

Okay, I know you've said

53:26

a little bit about this in this interview,

53:29

I wanna just go back to it.

53:31

We've said when the men are released

53:34

especially to third countries

53:36

and even to the home countries

53:38

the lives that are not necessarily improved

53:40

and some of the people we've interviewed have told us

53:42

that they still were living in Guantanamo

53:44

even though they'd been released from Guantanamo.

53:46

I know you said some of that

53:51

but what should America be doing?

53:52

What should the countries be doing

53:55

and why are these men saying that?

53:58

What's really the bigger picture here?

54:01

-

I mean, the bigger picture is these men

54:06

have been traumatized for 15 years.

54:09

They don't have social skills.

54:14

They have profound mental health symptoms

54:17

and they don't know how to relate

54:20

to people outside of a prison setting.

54:22

And when you take somebody like this

54:24

and essentially drop them off into a country

54:29

where maybe they don't speak the language,

54:32

they don't have any roots,

54:34

they don't know the culture,

54:35

this is going to be retraumatizing them all over again.

54:37

And they do not have the skills to succeed

54:40

in that kind of environment.

54:44

And I've seen that over and over again.

54:46

We've seen it with the men in Uruguay

54:50

who actually have a pretty good situation in Uruguay.

54:51

They have access to medical care

54:54

but still they don't have their families with them.

54:56

They don't know Spanish,

54:58

they don't know the culture,

55:00

and it's been very difficult for them.

55:02

I had a young man who was dropped off in Chad,

55:04

never been to Chad,

55:08

didn't speak French and was so horribly traumatized.

55:10

He ended up just fleeing across Africa

55:15

and was in quite dire straits.

55:19

So again, I've seen this over and over again

55:21

and we need to be providing the rehabilitation

55:25

and care that these men need

55:30

once they're released from Guantanamo.

55:32

Interviewer

Why?

55:35

Have you ever spoken to the DOD

55:36

or to anybody as to why the families of these men

55:38

are not given the option to transfer to the countries

55:43

where these men all said maybe they have their family,

55:46

that one man told us that he wishes he could meet

55:49

and see his mother but he can't afford

55:51

to fly his a mother from that country to this country

55:53

and yet that would make huge difference for him in terms of-

55:57

-

Absolutely family reunification is critical

56:00

and I've not spoken personally

56:04

to the DOD about this.

56:05

I don't know how they make those kinds of decisions,

56:08

but it's so critically important

56:12

for their wellbeing and for their recovery.

56:15

Interviewer

And what about finding, quote wives,

56:19

is that important?

56:22

Have you (laughing) to these men

56:23

when they come out of Guantanamo?

56:25

We've seen men say that to us.

56:28

I just wanted to-

56:30

-

To say what?

56:31

Interviewer

That they want a wife.

56:32

That now they need a wife

56:33

once they've been released from Guantanamo.

56:35

-

They've been in prison for 15 years.

56:37

Like I think (laughing).

56:39

I mean, yeah, they want a wife.

56:41

Interviewer

So on some level there's...

56:46

you can get counseling for them

56:47

but there's bigger issues that need to be missed.

56:49

-

Yes, yes.

56:52

Interviewer

You continue,

56:57

do you see yourself continuing this work?

56:58

-

That's a good question.

57:02

I think on some level, yes.

57:03

I am continuing to be involved with cases at Guantanamo

57:07

and with helping to assist men after their release.

57:11

Interviewer

Do you see yourself continuing

57:17

because it's necessary you won't burn out on it.

57:18

-

Well, right now it's necessary.

57:23

And hopefully I won't burn out

57:24

and hopefully I know where to get the resources

57:28

if I feel that I'm starting to.

57:29

Interviewer

So have you put other work you've done aside

57:32

and focusing on Guantanamo for the years?

57:35

Do you see yourself doing that?

57:37

-

Well, I have a medical practice in Boston and-

57:39

Interviewer

That continues.

57:45

-

That continues and so what I've done

57:46

is just set aside a specified amount of time each year

57:48

to work on some of the Guantanamo cases.

57:53

Interviewer

So I think when I was done,

57:56

Sondra, I guess two more questions.

57:58

One is, is there something overall

58:01

that you wanna just give the audience

58:03

in terms of understanding or have we done that

58:07

and then is there something I didn't ask you

58:08

that maybe you'd like to share with us?

58:10

-

I don't think so.

58:14

Interviewer

Okay, so if there's nothing

58:15

that you thought of before you came here

58:17

that you wanted to say that we haven't covered?

58:19

-

No, I think my biggest point was the fact

58:21

that we need to rehabilitate people

58:28

after they're released from Guantanamo.

58:30

And now it looks like the president is committed

58:32

to releasing larger numbers of people

58:35

and decreasing the population at Guantanamo.

58:38

And I think it's really important to pay attention

58:40

to how we are releasing them under what conditions

58:43

and to think about rehabilitation care.

58:47

Interviewer

Actually made me think of a question

58:51

I hadn't thought of, and that is,

58:52

why couldn't...

58:54

if they were somewhat more enlightened,

58:55

why couldn't they start rehabilitating the men

58:58

while they were in Guantanamo?

59:00

Is that possible?

59:02

Is that-

59:03

-

In my experience in traveling to Guantanamo,

59:05

it just doesn't seem realistic.

59:09

As we said earlier, it's very difficult

59:13

for the clinicians to develop relationships

59:16

with the detainees, therapeutic relationships.

59:19

Trust is a huge issue and it's a hostile environment

59:22

with many triggers of prior torture, so-

59:28

Interviewer

So until they're released,

59:31

have you heard stories of men being told

59:34

that they're gonna be released and then they're not?

59:35

-

Well, I think there've been huge delays in transfers,

59:39

and there have been...

59:47

I think it's public knowledge

59:50

that men have been cleared for release,

59:51

but then they don't actually get transferred

59:54

for years later,

59:56

which is also horribly stressful for people

59:57

and just compounds the suffering

1:00:01

and the distress that they're already experiencing.

1:00:03

Interviewer

Well, so if there's nothing,

1:00:08

if that's it, we can end it and give you 20 seconds

1:00:11

of room tone.

1:00:15

Is there anything else..

1:00:17

Do you want to say anything else?

1:00:18

-

I think I've said everything.

1:00:19

Interviewer

Okay, great, okay.

1:00:20

And Johnny, you wanna (indistinct)?

1:00:20

Johnny

Yeah, we got a room tone.

1:00:22

Interviewer

Okay.

1:00:37

Crosby, Sondra - Interview master file

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