Corsetti, Damien, interview 3 - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Cameraman

Okay, okay, we're rolling.

0:05

Peter

Okay, good morning.

0:06

-

Good morning.

0:07

Peter

We are very grateful to you

0:08

for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:09

We are actually really thrilled

0:13

that you're returning to continue your story

0:16

and the work you've done over the last years,

0:19

dealing with detainees

0:23

who we then sent to Guantanamo,

0:26

and also your life has just progressed

0:27

from the time you left the military to the present.

0:30

People in America and around the world

0:34

need to hear your story

0:36

and understand what happened to people in the military

0:38

and how they work through the issues and evolved over time.

0:42

And we're very grateful to you for coming back

0:46

to continue your story on your own life, actually.

0:49

And hopefully it'll be as compelling

0:54

as the other two stories

0:58

where they certainly were for me.

0:59

So thank you again.

1:01

-

Yeah.

Peter

And if any time you want to take a break,

1:02

please let us know,

1:05

and if there's something you say you want me to remove,

1:05

we can remove it if you tell me.

1:08

-

Fantastic, yeah, (indistinct).

1:09

If I slip a little classified

1:11

or something like that.

1:12

-

Excuse me?

-

If I slip in anything classified or something like that,

1:13

we'd have to take it out.

1:14

-

Totally, we'll do that.

-

I don't want to go to,

1:17

won't go to prison for that.

1:18

Peter

Really.

1:18

(Damien laughs)

And I like to begin by, if you tell us your name

1:20

and a little bit about yourself again

1:23

just so we can carry on that record.

1:25

-

Okay, my name's Damien Merino Corsetti,

1:29

a trained counter-intelligence agent

1:31

for the United States Army.

1:34

Enlisted in the year 2000.

1:36

Was deployed to Afghanistan in July 29th of 2002.

1:40

And pretty much continuously went from there to Iraq

1:45

and was deployed for roughly a year and a half

1:49

between the two.

1:53

I worked at Bagram, Afghanistan,

1:54

(indistinct), Iraq and Abu Ghraib in Iraq as well.

1:57

Peter

And you were an important person

2:02

for your history because of your work environment.

2:05

So just briefly even though we have it on the other tapes

2:08

just so that if somebody just watching this tape,

2:11

they have some background

2:13

as to why we're interviewing you again.

2:15

-

Oh, while I was at Bagram, Afghanistan,

2:18

I was implicated in the deaths of two detainees,

2:20

which through my refusal to speak

2:23

with the investigators was opened up

2:26

into a broader scope of just general abuse of prisoners

2:27

and to which I was charged with, I believe,

2:31

I believe I had 13 charges.

2:35

and nine different counts put against me.

2:38

I was looking at a 23-year federal indictment

2:42

that was tried by court-martial in the military.

2:45

So a three-year process.

2:49

Peter

What year was that, do you remember?

2:51

-

I was officially charged in 2005.

2:53

My courts-martial commenced in 2006,

2:58

but I was pending charges from 2003

3:02

until my courts martial ended.

3:07

Peter

And when were you, is it,

3:10

were you given a discharge

3:13

or released from the military?

3:15

When was that?

3:16

How was that?

3:17

-

I was honorably discharged from the military

3:18

October 1st of 2006.

3:20

Peter

And had the trial been completed by then?

3:24

-

My trial was concluded I believe April 1st

3:26

of 2006 was the day I was found not guilty.

3:30

Peter

And just briefly cause we have it

3:33

on the other tapes Damien,

3:34

but when you were in Bagram,

3:36

why did they accuse you of abuse?

3:39

What was it about, you know?

3:42

-

It was my job at that prison

3:46

to be the big scary guy for everybody

3:48

and use the technique called fear up harsh

3:51

as well as some of the other

3:54

not so nice techniques that we had.

3:56

Some of them were in the book.

3:58

Some of them we created while we were there.

3:59

They were encouraged there.

4:02

I was given awards for those techniques,

4:04

and then I was turned around

4:06

and charged for them a few years later.

4:07

Peter

And when you said you could kind of,

4:10

they weren't in the books,

4:12

were you given the liberty to just create them on your own?

4:13

-

Yes, we were given extreme liberty

4:16

to try to pioneer different things to do,

4:18

because every everything

4:22

that the Army's FM won't interrogate,

4:23

field manual and interrogation,

4:25

was pretty much for conventional warfare

4:28

with the conventional military opposing force.

4:30

We had never dealt with,

4:33

I don't want to call them terrorists,

4:37

we had never dealt with an enemy like we had there.

4:38

'Cause they weren't all terrorists.

4:41

We'd never dealt with an enemy like that.

4:42

And so we were given extreme liberty

4:45

to try to find new ways and any,

4:48

we had morning meetings,

4:50

and we had nightly meetings

4:52

to kind of say what we had done throughout the day,

4:54

what worked, what didn't work,

4:56

and if something was working,

4:58

we taught it to each other.

5:00

And you know, and that's, you know,

5:01

there was a few things, like the casual cruelty

5:05

that we called it, that myself

5:08

and one of my partners came up with

5:12

that was used pretty extensively

5:15

by a lot of the teams there.

5:16

Peter

Could you define what that means?

5:18

-

Casual cruelty was a way of dehumanizing the prisoner.

5:20

You would use them as furniture.

5:24

You would, my favorite thing to do would be

5:27

to have them kneeling next to me,

5:30

and I'd pull out their pocket on their shirt

5:32

and use it as an ashtray,

5:35

not even acknowledge their existence

5:37

and just play cards in front of them

5:38

for two hours or read a book

5:40

or just take away the humanity

5:42

of the prisoner, and it broke their will pretty quickly,

5:46

as it would, you know, if you can imagine.

5:50

Peter

So this is important in terms of,

5:54

you know, progression over the years.

5:57

So at that point, what were you thinking

5:58

when you were still, you know, in Bagram?

6:00

-

At that time, I mean, I was professional soldier.

6:06

I took my job really seriously.

6:08

And...

6:11

Even though we raised objections

6:15

to some of what was going on there,

6:17

especially pertaining to the Afghan prisoners in particular,

6:20

we really, there's a part in Geneva that deals

6:22

with something called levée en masse,

6:26

which is when there's a popular uprising

6:28

amongst the people that they don't need to fight

6:30

for a flag or wear uniforms,

6:32

and they're still to be afforded protections under Geneva.

6:34

And a lot of us raised this objection,

6:36

because we had JAG officers that would come in there

6:39

during these meetings to make sure

6:41

that everything was going by the book.

6:43

And you know, I'm not a trained lawyer.

6:45

I'd read Geneva, I'd read the law of land warfare,

6:49

which would have been the two things

6:51

that governed our behavior there.

6:52

And so we raised these questions,

6:55

the question of levée en masse

6:58

for the Afghan prisoners,

6:59

not the Arabs, but the Afghans.

7:01

And they told us that no,

7:03

they don't qualify for levée en masse.

7:05

They never gave us a good explanation as to why,

7:07

but with the best legal counsel we had available

7:09

to us at the time told us that the orders

7:11

we were being given to do these things were lawful orders.

7:13

So I, as a soldier at that point,

7:17

have the choice of risking incarceration myself

7:19

for refusing a lawful order or just doing it.

7:22

And whether you like it or not, as a professional soldier,

7:25

it is your job to do what you're told to do

7:28

so long as it's within the law.

7:30

And once we were told it was within the law,

7:32

I had to do it.

7:34

I didn't have to, but I had to, you understand?

7:35

Peter

So as time evolved, what changed in you?

7:39

-

My (laughs), I pretty much just started,

7:44

by the time, in Afghanistan,

7:48

I really didn't change that much.

7:50

I was pretty, I got to the point

7:53

where I was just callous,

7:55

and it started building on itself.

7:56

You start doing these things on a daily basis,

7:58

on an hourly basis.

8:01

Your whole thought of this as a human being

8:02

that I'm doing this to starts to disappear.

8:06

It goes away, and you start looking at these people

8:09

like they're not human, like they're just objects.

8:12

You start looking at them like furniture and ashtrays,

8:15

and that's all they are to you.

8:17

They don't have a soul, they don't have feelings,

8:19

they don't have family, they don't have,

8:22

you know, you don't look at,

8:23

you don't even consider that.

8:25

And day by day, that would start to go away.

8:27

You know what I mean?

8:29

I turned into a real asshole while I was there.

8:30

I was not, I was by no means

8:34

a friend to the prisoners at all.

8:36

You know, even the ones

8:39

that I did feel a little sorry for,

8:41

I wasn't gonna go out of my way to help them.

8:43

I wasn't, you know, when it's an us or them environment,

8:46

that's just, that's the mentality that you have.

8:49

And that's what I had.

8:52

I, and the way I feel

8:53

about it now is that I can say that.

8:56

I was there.

9:00

I was going through that.

9:02

And the people, the dozen or so people

9:03

that were there with me,

9:05

can cast judgment on what they did,

9:08

but it really kinda upset,

9:10

it doesn't kind of upset me,

9:12

it really upsets me when people

9:13

want a Monday morning quarterback, what we did over there.

9:15

We did our jobs to the best of our abilities

9:18

with what we told, the confines of the law allowed.

9:20

And so when I hear people cast judgment

9:24

upon what we did, how could you, how could you do this?

9:28

It's like, well, you weren't in that situation.

9:31

You really can't say you would have done any differently.

9:33

You know, I, before I'd gone there,

9:36

I said, "Oh no I couldn't do such things."

9:38

And now I look back, and I'm like,

9:40

"How could I do such things?"

9:41

But it's my right to say that,

9:42

and it's the right of those dozen people

9:43

that were there with me to say that,

9:45

and I really don't care to hear

9:47

what anybody else has to think about it.

9:49

Peter

Did people who you were there

9:52

with have the same regrets you have?

9:53

-

Some of them, I mean the ones I still talk to,

9:57

you know (laughs)?

10:00

You tend to, you know,

10:01

birds of a feather.

10:02

-

Right.

-

So, I mean, of course there's people

10:03

that didn't, you know, they,

10:05

whether they felt bad about it or not,

10:07

they didn't show it that they felt bad.

10:09

And you know, maybe they don't,

10:10

and hey, good for them if they don't.

10:12

I'm sure that makes life very easy

10:13

if you don't regret anything you've done.

10:15

That must be nice.

10:18

But you know, everybody that I still stay in contact with,

10:19

yeah, there's things that bother,

10:22

of course it bothers them, it stays with them.

10:24

I mean, cause you get to step away from the situation

10:26

and step back and be like, "Wow, what did I do?"

10:28

Peter

Do you remember the day

10:31

that that first happened,

10:32

that realization that maybe what did I do was not

10:34

quite what I should have done?

10:39

-

You know, it was not until during my trial

10:42

that I actually started to feel the least bit bad

10:46

about anything I had done.

10:49

And sitting at my trial,

10:51

listening to the testimony against me,

10:52

I started to think,

10:57

"Well, maybe something could be wrong.

10:58

Maybe I didn't do things the way I should have done them."

11:00

And so, you know, that was the first time,

11:04

right there, it was something really horrible

11:08

happening to me, but I wouldn't change it,

11:10

because it made me who I am right now

11:12

sitting in front of you.

11:14

I would have never come to these conclusions

11:15

had I not had that trial.

11:17

Peter

So the accusations,

11:18

the charges themselves didn't impact you.

11:20

It was only sitting there and hearing them

11:22

in the testimony that really got to you?

11:24

-

Hearing a U.S. officer call me the accused

11:27

and read those, you know,

11:32

-

Charges.

-

read off my charges in great detail

11:35

made me think about it right there.

11:38

Yeah.

11:40

Peter

And did that make you think

11:42

that maybe you should plea out

11:45

if in fact maybe you did something wrong?

11:46

-

Well, of course they were offering me,

11:49

they were offering me six months of time.

11:50

Of course I wanted to plea out like it,

11:52

but you know, the whole thing was is that,

11:54

you know, it was kind of like going into battle

11:58

for my trial.

12:00

I had to have this mentality that I wasn't wrong,

12:01

that what I did was justified,

12:03

that I followed the rules,

12:06

that, and I did follow the rules that were given to me.

12:07

I want to make that clear.

12:10

I did not go beyond the rules that were given to me.

12:12

But yeah,

12:17

I think my mindset going into that

12:20

wouldn't allow me to look at it up until that point,

12:22

because until then, I was preparing my defense,

12:26

which is extremely hard to do, you know?

12:28

I mean this is on my mind 24-7 for three years,

12:31

always at the front of my mind.

12:34

And so to stay strong through that,

12:36

I couldn't even think about being guilty

12:38

or anything like that.

12:41

I remember one of my defense attorneys wanted me

12:41

to write out basically a plea for mercy

12:44

to the judge for when I was found guilty.

12:48

And I never did it,

12:50

because I couldn't sit there and do that.

12:51

I never was willing to face

12:53

the idea that I could be found guilty.

12:54

Peter

Well, when the trial ended,

12:59

and you were acquitted, what happened then?

13:03

Did you still feel like maybe you did the wrong thing

13:07

even though you were acquitted at the trial?

13:09

-

I was just so happy.

13:11

I, man, I dropped down and cried.

13:13

The emotion just really overcame me.

13:15

And, you know, I had this big,

13:18

big 800-pound gorilla off my back, you know what I mean?

13:20

It was just, I was found not guilty.

13:22

And I thought, you know, I'd been seeing,

13:25

I'd been seeing a therapist up until then.

13:28

I couldn't talk to them, because in the military,

13:31

your command has access to your therapy records.

13:33

So I couldn't really talk to them

13:35

about what was going on with me.

13:37

But they just kept telling me when your trial is over,

13:39

you're gonna be better.

13:42

When your trial's over, you're gonna be better.

13:42

And so my trial was over, and I wasn't better.

13:45

And that's what I remember

13:47

is I expected to be better, and it just didn't come.

13:49

It wasn't, you know, it still hasn't come.

13:51

It's been a work in progress ever since then really,

13:54

really to get better from the whole situation.

13:59

Peter

Well, when you had

14:02

an 800 gorilla off your back,

14:03

what were you really thinking?

14:06

Were you pleased you weren't going to prison,

14:07

or were you pleased that you weren't found guilty?

14:09

-

I was happy that, my whole thing through that

14:12

was that once a panel of my peers,

14:16

even though they weren't my peers,

14:19

they were sergeants major

14:20

and full bird colonels on my panel,

14:22

I had faith throughout the whole thing

14:26

as a professional soldier,

14:28

as a paratrooper at Fort Bragg,

14:30

I believed that there is not a panel of my peers

14:33

that when presented with the facts

14:37

of this case is gonna convict me.

14:39

And I kept faith in my military brethren at that point.

14:41

Even though my unit at Bragg was treating me horribly,

14:45

I knew that if this was an impartial jury,

14:49

and they heard the facts of the case,

14:53

there's no way that a jury of military men,

14:55

professional military men was gonna convict me.

14:57

Peter

Why?

14:59

-

Because they would see what happened.

15:02

You know, it's the, it's the Army's,

15:04

the military in general is pretty, pretty stupid.

15:06

And they know that.

15:10

Everybody that's been in for any amount of time

15:11

knows that the military is just, it's dumb.

15:13

You could have a six-year-old running the military,

15:15

the only difference would be we'd all have ray guns.

15:17

And so I knew that they would understand

15:21

the BS that was going on

15:25

and what exactly was trying to happen,

15:26

what exactly was going on.

15:27

And I just knew deep down in my soul,

15:30

I was like, "There's no way

15:32

that my brothers are gonna convict me for this."

15:33

And that's what happened.

15:36

'Cause they, even the stuff we admitted to

15:38

in my trial like the drinking,

15:40

and they charged me with cussing

15:42

and stuff like that, you know,

15:45

of course, you know, yeah, I did that.

15:46

I'm an interrogator, and I cussed, oh.

15:47

But you know, even the stuff we admitted to,

15:50

there was jury nullification on those.

15:52

They were just not guilty across the board.

15:54

Peter

Did they know what kind

15:56

of training you had as an interrogator?

15:57

Were they aware of that?

15:59

-

It was brought up

in my trial.

16:01

Peter

And could you just tell us again

16:02

what kind of training you had?

16:04

-

About two weeks before we were down in Louisianastan

16:05

training to go, and they,

16:09

maybe about two weeks of running approaches

16:13

and things like that and how to reinforce your approach

16:16

and not really anything in telling deception,

16:20

because you really it's just something you gotta do.

16:23

And then when we got there for two days prior to us

16:26

taking the reins from the group that was there,

16:30

we just sat in and watched them do it.

16:32

And I sat, you know,

16:34

everybody was assigned a time to go in.

16:35

I stayed in the whole time, every waking moment I could,

16:37

I wanted to learn.

16:40

And, you know, to be quite honest, I was, you know,

16:42

it scared them to put in a room with a terrorist,

16:44

ooh, you know (laughs) like, you know,

16:46

you wanted to get a feel for these people.

16:49

Peter

And do you think

16:52

you were well-trained?

16:54

-

Not at all, not at all.

16:56

No business, I had no business in there.

16:58

Peter

And how come your,

17:01

all your colleagues pled out, and you didn't?

17:02

What was different about you?

17:05

-

I mean it's scary.

17:07

It's scary when you're facing a trial,

17:08

and they're putting the, you know,

17:10

they charge you with every, like I said,

17:12

they charged me with cussing and drinking,

17:13

and you know, things that people do.

17:15

And so they don't just charge you with like the big stuff.

17:17

I mean, they come at you with everything,

17:21

and all those little things add up

17:22

to years and years and years of time.

17:24

And so when they offer you six months,

17:27

three months to get out of all these years,

17:29

potentially in prison, yeah, it's very tempting.

17:31

I was super tempted.

17:33

My trial was delayed by three hours,

17:36

'cause we were negotiating with the prosecution.

17:38

And so I think that has a lot to do with it.

17:41

Peter

What's in, what's about your character

17:47

that you were willing to go through the trial,

17:49

and no one else would?

17:51

-

Well, for the past three years,

17:53

I had been mopping a concrete floor

17:56

for 12 hours a day,

18:00

same floor, and my commander would come in

18:03

and spit dip spit down on the floor

18:06

that I had just cleaned,

18:08

just wanting me to act up,

18:09

just trying to give him a reason to further punish me.

18:11

And I didn't do it.

18:16

I didn't do it.

18:17

I dealt with it for three years,

18:18

just like, the three years was worse

18:19

than being at war for me.

18:21

It really was, it was terrible.

18:22

'Cause I just wanted to knock his fucking head off.

18:24

And I would today.

18:26

I'd like that asshole to spit on my floor now.

18:27

And...

18:32

I bit my tongue for that long,

18:35

and I put up with it for three years,

18:37

and had I not put up with it for so long,

18:39

maybe I would have given in,

18:42

but I didn't go through all that just to quit at the end,

18:43

just to give in and say, "Okay, you got me."

18:46

That's not, that would, you know,

18:49

what would that have done?

18:51

What would I tell my kids?

18:52

What would, you know, my wife was pregnant at the time.

18:54

What was I gonna tell my son, you know?

18:57

Peter

Why'd they have you mop the floors?

19:01

-

(laughs) I was a counterintelligence agent

19:03

with no security clearance.

19:05

I mean, there really wasn't much

19:07

in Fort Bragg, North Carolina.

19:08

That's old school military there.

19:10

Mop floors, flip rocks, and rake sand.

19:12

That's what you do.

19:16

-

Really?

19:17

-

Yeah.

That's if you, if you're being punished,

19:18

if you're being punished, but you're not being punished,

19:20

they find ways to do it, yeah.

19:22

Peter

So what did your colleagues think

19:25

of you that you were gonna try?

19:27

Did they tell you you were crazy,

19:28

that you really should plea out,

19:29

(indistinct)?

19:31

-

Oh everybody did.

My lawyer told me (laughs).

19:32

You know, he can't tell me to plead out,

19:34

but he let me know that he was like,

19:36

"Hey, you're getting a good deal here, you know?"

19:37

And yeah, everybody,

19:39

my parents thought I was nuts,

19:42

and you know, you know,

19:45

I'd faced worse at that point.

19:47

Peter

So are you proud of the fact

19:49

that you held up like that with that character (indistinct)?

19:51

-

I mean, I'm happy, of course I'm happy

19:55

I didn't plea out.

19:56

It means a lot to me to have an honorable discharge.

19:57

You know, I wouldn't,

19:59

not just because of the benefits

20:01

that I currently get from it,

20:03

but it means a lot, because I served with honor, you know?

20:04

Maybe not to everybody's eyes.

20:09

I think I did.

20:10

And to say, to get a dishonorable discharge to me that,

20:12

no, I didn't, there was nothing I did

20:16

that was dishonorable, you know?

20:17

I mean to people that have never been soldiers maybe,

20:20

but I was a professional soldier.

20:22

I served with honor with what I did.

20:24

Peter

Good.

20:27

So, okay, so after the trial ended,

20:28

and you were, I mean, honorably discharged,

20:30

what happened then?

20:35

What happened (indistinct)?

20:37

-

Well again, I was like,

okay, I'm gonna get out to the military,

20:38

and then everything's gonna be better.

20:39

Once I stop putting on this little green monkey suit,

20:40

and I put the military far behind me,

20:42

then I'll get better, but it didn't.

20:47

I really, I'd been using cocaine

20:49

for probably three years by that time.

20:52

Peter

During the (indistinct)?

20:56

-

Oh, while I was in the military.

20:57

Yeah, you couldn't (indistinct),

20:58

it'd stay in your system too long,

20:59

but I used an obscene amount of cocaine

21:00

while I was in the military,

21:02

which I, you know, I used to really feel ashamed about that.

21:04

I don't feel bad about it now,

21:06

because now that I know what was going on with me,

21:08

it's very common for people who share

21:10

a similar circumstance with me to go to chemical dependency,

21:14

whether it be alcohol or drugs or,

21:16

so I don't have too much shame in that anymore.

21:18

It's still not my proudest moment,

21:21

but no, I'm not ashamed of it.

21:22

I did it.

21:24

And then when I got out,

21:25

and I didn't have to worry about anything anymore,

21:26

then I really just went overboard with the drugs,

21:28

and got that really spiraled out of control.

21:30

My whole life spiraled out of control at that point.

21:34

I fell deep in a drug dependency,

21:36

not just with cocaine, but I was doing heroin

21:39

and all kinds of horrible stuff.

21:42

You know, what do you got?

21:44

So that was kind of the guy I was,

21:45

and I lost my, my wife left me.

21:47

She took our son with her.

21:51

And then I really went overboard at that point.

21:53

Then it was like, you know, I was,

21:57

my doctor's call it being passively suicidal,

21:59

where I just lived such a reckless life,

22:01

that, you know, I was welcoming death at that point.

22:03

And I was working at a strip club

22:07

and bouncing at a biker bar,

22:09

and just, I was, I was just a ruffian (laughs),

22:11

like not a model pillar of society.

22:15

And so finally I was going up

22:19

to D.C. for Christmas

22:23

and to do a screening for (indistinct),

22:26

And while I was up there, I just looked at my parents,

22:31

broke down in tears and told them what I've been doing.

22:34

I was like, I need help.

22:37

I went to rehab.

22:38

And that helped me out a lot.

22:40

They helped me out a lot as far as taking,

22:42

I think a lot of the 12 steps are a bunch of bullshit,

22:44

but the taking personal accountability

22:47

of what you've done and how you've harmed people

22:49

and things like that didn't just help me with my drugs,

22:52

it helped me process what else I'd done,

22:55

how I'd harmed people, and so,

22:58

you know, that helped,

23:00

that was a huge advantage for me.

23:01

That was probably the best thing

23:03

besides transcendental meditation

23:05

for my recovery in my mental health.

23:07

Peter

How long did you go through that,

23:12

rehabilitation and?

23:13

-

It was a three months extensive outpatient,

23:15

five days a week through the VA.

23:17

And that's how I got into the VA system

23:21

was through the rehab program.

23:23

Peter

(indistinct) back for a minute.

23:26

Why do you think you crashed so hard

23:27

after you got the acquittal?

23:30

-

'Cause I was like, I think I was really

23:34

just expecting everything to go back to being okay again.

23:36

And it wasn't, and then I didn't have anything

23:39

to blame it on anymore.

23:41

I didn't have this trial to blame.

23:42

Well, this is why I don't feel well.

23:43

I think I finally started realizing

23:45

that I don't feel well because of me,

23:47

not because of this outside influence

23:50

hanging over my head.

23:54

It wasn't that, it was me, that I was sick.

23:54

Peter

And there was,

23:59

did you have no support system?

24:00

-

I did, I just didn't use it.

24:02

You know, it's really hard,

24:05

it's really hard to say you need help.

24:06

That's not in the macho bravado that's in the military,

24:08

and that atmosphere, to ask for help is, you know,

24:12

that's just not something that's done.

24:14

You know, especially, even though my clearance was gone,

24:17

especially when you hold a security clearance,

24:20

like you can go ask for mental health treatment,

24:21

it's done, you're gone,

24:25

you've lost your job, you're worthless.

24:26

But especially at Fort Bragg at that time

24:29

like that it would just, it would have looked weak,

24:32

and there was just too much bravado in me at the time

24:35

to ever do something like that.

24:38

Peter

And why did you have the courage

24:41

to ask your parents for help?

24:42

-

You know, I hadn't lived with them

24:46

for at that time 10 years,

24:47

and you know, there's, not everybody has good parents.

24:51

I've got great parents.

24:55

They're awesome.

24:56

They're the kind that will, they might not agree with me

24:57

or tell me they don't agree with me,

25:00

but they will support me in whatever I do.

25:01

And I know that, I've always known that,

25:05

and I knew I needed help,

25:06

and I knew my life was completely falling apart.

25:10

And I knew that, "Hey these are the only people

25:14

in this world I can tell this to

25:16

that I know are gonna be like, "We love you,

25:17

let's get you some help."

25:19

And so that's why, that's why.

25:20

There's never been anything

25:23

I haven't been able to tell them.

25:24

It might take me a while,

25:25

but I've always been able to talk to them.

25:27

They're really great people.

25:28

Peter

So they helped turn you around.

25:30

That's where you turned around?

25:32

-

Oh yeah.

25:34

That's when I started,

25:35

I mean, I've slid back every now and then,

25:36

but that's when it started to get better, yeah.

25:39

Peter

Well, can you take us

25:41

through after those three months

25:42

when you had gone for rehabilitation?

25:45

-

Yeah, so then I was like,

25:49

"Well, the drugs are the problem", right?

25:50

And they had me seeing a counselor during this time.

25:52

He's like, "Hey, you got PTSD."

25:55

And at the time I was like,

25:56

well, that's like, you know,

25:57

I'm thinking, you know, being in Fayetteville,

25:59

you see Vietnam vets jumping behind bushes,

26:00

taking cover, yelling incoming,

26:02

and that was my idea of, not to belittle that guy,

26:04

you know, he's suffering in his own way,

26:08

but that's what I thought PTSD was.

26:09

And that was my idea of it.

26:11

And so it's, they're telling me,

26:14

I was like that's not it, it's the drugs.

26:15

Drugs were my problem, you know?

26:17

So get off drugs, and then I'm like,

26:19

"Okay, I'm ready to go jump back into my life."

26:22

So I moved back to North Carolina again

26:24

and started bouncing at the biker bar again (laughs)

26:26

but sober this time,

26:30

and it didn't work out so well,

26:32

'cause I was still really sick,

26:35

just not from the drugs.

26:36

I was sick in, you know, my soul, my soul was sick and.

26:37

Peter

You didn't feel the need

26:42

to go back to drugs then?

26:43

-

I certainly did (laughs).

26:45

Of course, of course I did.

26:47

I mean, my sobriety has not been pristine over,

26:48

you know, I've had my,

26:51

I have my demons, but...

26:54

Peter

Were you thinking along the lines?

27:00

I mean, were you constantly wondering who you were

27:02

as you were going through all this?

27:05

-

Yeah, I kept wanting to be the person I was before,

27:07

-

Before?

27:10

-

and I kept it,

before I joined the military,

27:11

I wanted to be my happy, go lucky self,

27:12

and joking, and you know?

27:15

That guy's not there anymore.

27:19

He's not.

27:20

Like this is part of who I am,

27:21

but that's just not who I am anymore.

27:22

I'll never be that person again.

27:23

I finally realized it.

27:24

It took me a long time to realize that,

27:25

'cause I kept trying to be that person.

27:26

That's the last time I remembered me as me.

27:29

Besides that, I was in the military as this collective,

27:31

and I was not an individual.

27:35

I was part of a collective.

27:36

And so to, yeah, it took me a long time

27:38

to try to figure out who I was.

27:41

I had to relearn who I was,

27:43

'cause I definitely wasn't the old me,

27:44

and I wasn't part of the collective anymore,

27:47

so I had to just basically get to know myself again.

27:48

I know it sounds really lame,

27:51

I get to know myself,

27:53

but that's really what I had to do.

27:54

It took a few years.

27:54

Peter

Is it okay

27:57

that you're not the person you were?

27:57

-

I used to be really angry about it.

28:00

And I mean, I guess it's still kind of pisses me off,

28:01

but you know, I mean I am who I am,

28:03

I'm pretty happy

28:05

(microphone static)

with who I am today.

28:06

I can't say I'd be happier as the other person,

28:08

you know, today.

28:09

Today, the guy sitting in front of you,

28:12

I'm really happy with who I am.

28:13

I think I'm a good person.

28:14

The first time I thought I was a good person in a long time.

28:15

I thought I was just real piece of crap,

28:18

but yeah, now I feel,

28:22

you know, I look in the mirror, and I'm happy, you know?

28:24

Peter

So where did that come from

28:26

from going back to the biker bar,

28:28

how did that come to where today you're okay with yourself?

28:30

-

A lot of introspective thought really (laughs).

28:34

I mean, a lot of...

28:36

Just a lot of time.

28:43

It took time, and that was it,

28:44

just lots and lots of time and lots of experiences,

28:45

lots of falling on my ass, yeah.

28:49

Peter

So can you tell us where you went?

28:51

Did you leave the biker bar again then?

28:53

-

Yeah, yeah, I left that,

28:55

and then again,

28:56

-

What did you do then?

-

and then, that really was (laughs),

28:58

although with untreated, undiagnosed PTSD,

29:00

bouncing at a biker bar was a great job (laughs),

29:04

you know, hey, you didn't seem weird.

29:08

(both laugh)

29:10

"All right, wow, this guy's a great bouncer."

29:11

You know, it just, it really wasn't the best environment,

29:15

the best people for me to be around.

29:20

Not that, hey, I knew some great people there.

29:21

I'm gonna clear that up.

29:23

Not all of them were bad people.

29:24

There were some really great human beings

29:26

in that (indistinct) while I was there.

29:27

I still talk to a lot of them.

29:28

It was not the best place for me

29:31

as a recovering addict

29:33

and needing to be away

29:34

from violence to be.

29:37

Peter

So where'd you go next?

29:41

-

I went back to D.C. again,

29:43

and I lived there for...

29:45

Maybe a year and a half, two years,

29:51

and started getting counseling at the VA then.

29:54

I was like, "Okay, well, I'll go talk to this guy."

29:56

I had this social worker up there

30:00

who's one of the best therapists I had while I was,

30:01

that I've ever had from the VA.

30:03

And he was a Vietnam vet,

30:06

and he never told me he had it too,

30:07

but I think he did, I'm pretty sure he did,

30:10

because he could really relate to me

30:11

in a way that nobody, no other,

30:13

you know, how do you explain something like this?

30:15

There's no way to put it into words.

30:19

And he got it.

30:21

He got it, and he understood very well.

30:22

And he helped me out,

30:26

and I'd to go see him, and he didn't even do therapy.

30:27

He was just the only one,

30:30

'cause they kept trying to have me talk

30:31

to psychiatrists, and I hate psychiatrists.

30:32

They just want to medicate you,

30:33

and it really does no good.

30:34

You're trading my cocaine for Xanax,

30:36

and that's all you're doing.

30:39

I still have my problems.

30:40

You're just masking them.

30:41

Yeah, it's nice that I'm no longer a threat to society,

30:43

'cause I'm catatonic and on (indistinct),

30:45

but like I'm sure that's great for you guys

30:47

not to have a naval yard shooting,

30:50

but how about you fucking help me with my issues?

30:51

And so I stopped seeing the psychiatrist,

30:55

said no more psychiatrists.

30:56

And he called me up, and like I said,

30:58

a social worker, he didn't do therapy.

31:00

And he was like, "You know,

31:02

I'll talk to you if you wanna talk to me."

31:03

And he would come in an hour early every Wednesday

31:04

so that I could talk to him.

31:07

And you know, he really went out

31:09

of his way to help me.

31:11

And I'm so appreciative to him.

31:13

Peter

Does he know that?

31:16

-

I'm pretty sure he does.

31:17

I'm pretty sure he knows how much he meant to me.

31:19

And then he ended up transferring

31:24

to doing a different thing

31:26

in a different area of the hospital,

31:28

and he couldn't do it anymore.

31:31

And then shortly after that I left.

31:32

And a buddy of mine was going

31:35

through some trouble in North Carolina,

31:36

different part of North Carolina this time,

31:38

away from Fort Bragg.

31:40

And I went down there to kind of hang out

31:42

with him for a few weeks.

31:45

Ended up living with him for about six months

31:46

and met my current girlfriend.

31:52

And you know, we've got a baby coming then,

31:54

and I was like, "All right, well,

31:57

let's try to stay together."

31:58

You know, it's normally not the best reason to stay

31:59

with somebody, but it's worked out so far.

32:01

And so from there, we moved to Savannah, Georgia.

32:03

Peter

How was that?

32:08

-

Oh man, I loved it.

32:09

Savannah was great (laughs).

32:10

Yeah, I had a great time, they were great people,

32:13

and I could hide in plain sight.

32:17

Nobody knew who I was.

32:18

I really enjoyed the anonymity of it.

32:21

But then I--

32:24

Peter

Were you still seeing a therapist

32:25

or were you seeing anybody?

32:27

-

I continued to see a therapist there.

32:28

I didn't see a therapist when I was in North Carolina,

32:29

because the VA's by region,

32:31

and it's no surprise to me,

32:34

I knew that I didn't expect,

32:36

whoo, I'm getting VA medical care, awesome.

32:38

I'm gonna be so well taken care of,

32:40

like I was a little smarter than that.

32:42

And I didn't have high expectations for them.

32:44

Granted there's no longer rats

32:46

and cockroaches walking the hospital floors,

32:47

but as far as the level of care you get, not great.

32:49

You really have to search for it.

32:53

And so when I was in North Carolina,

32:56

it was a horrible VA system

32:58

in the area I was in North Carolina.

33:00

They pretty much told me to go drive two hours

33:02

to go get therapy.

33:04

I was like, "Okay yeah,

33:05

you want me to drive angry for two hours?"

33:06

So I just didn't go to therapy.

33:10

When I moved to Savannah, I lucked out,

33:14

and got a great therapist in Savannah,

33:16

and which took some fighting

33:18

to get, to actually get to try

33:22

to talk to a psychologist.

33:24

To talk to a psychologist in the VA,

33:25

A, there are few and far between,

33:27

and B, they, if you talk to one once every two months,

33:29

once every three months, and she saw me every week.

33:32

And so we had a relationship

33:37

for about three years,

33:39

and I was really sad to leave her.

33:40

She was a great therapist.

33:42

We had a good relationship as well.

33:43

Peter

You knew that's what you needed?

33:46

-

Yeah, yeah.

33:49

I've never, I tried the pills.

33:50

I tried the magic pills, and they just,

33:52

they made my give a shit factor

33:55

go way down to where I didn't care

33:59

that I was not feeling well,

34:00

but I still felt bad, and I still wasn't me.

34:02

I still, you know, I was just, I just didn't care.

34:06

Might as well been high as far as I was concerned then.

34:10

The one, another thing the VA did

34:13

for me in D.C. is they taught me transcendental meditation,

34:14

which I did just because I wasn't making

34:18

a lot of money at the time,

34:20

and it was a paid study they were doing.

34:21

So I went to go do this paid study,

34:23

and I didn't believe in any of that mumbo-jumbo,

34:25

and I still don't believe

34:27

in a lot of the mumbo jumbo of it.

34:28

I don't know why it works, but it works for me.

34:30

So yeah, that was a great (indistinct).

34:33

I still meditate.

34:36

Peter

And what, how does it work for you?

34:37

What's it do for you?

34:38

-

It calms me.

34:40

It centers me.

34:41

I don't always hit the transcendental state like here.

34:42

Like you, you know, I'm not going to say you're supposed to,

34:45

'cause you're not supposed to hit it every time,

34:47

but it really, it really calms me down, you know?

34:49

And even when I'm really stressed out,

34:54

I can just say my mantra in my head

34:56

and calms me down.

34:58

Peter

When you mentioned you were so angry,

35:01

and you didn't want to drive two hours with anger,

35:03

when you angry before you went

35:05

into the military or was that anger?

35:07

-

No, not really.

35:09

It's all, I'm still a really angry guy.

35:10

I have a lot of anger,

35:13

a lot of frustration in me,

35:14

and it comes out, you know?

35:16

Peter

Where's that coming from?

35:19

-

I don't know, I've got this rage.

35:22

I've got this rage,

35:24

and I've tried to,

35:25

I've gotten as good of a handle

35:27

as I can today on it.

35:29

And it gets better every day.

35:30

It gets better.

35:32

I can't control it.

35:34

I can't say I have control over it,

35:35

but the handle that I'll get on it,

35:36

and I recognize when it's coming.

35:37

And know, when I wake up in the morning

35:40

that, "Hey, I shouldn't drive today.

35:42

I shouldn't go out in public today,

35:45

because the chances that I'm gonna unleash this

35:46

on some poor unsuspecting person

35:49

that just did the most minor infraction

35:51

to me are great."

35:53

So I just have to know when to avoid people.

35:55

(laughs) And it's more getting to know myself

36:00

and knowing the signs and the feelings

36:03

and emotions that I'm having every day.

36:05

Peter

I mean, you must appreciate yourself

36:09

that you've reached that level of consciousness.

36:10

-

Oh, it's a lot better.

36:12

It's a lot better than not knowing

36:13

and just unleashing my (indistinct).

36:15

I mean, you know, there's a lot of regret

36:16

with having a rage like that,

36:19

because you really unleash it.

36:21

It's never the person that deserves it that gets it.

36:23

It's always some person that cuts

36:26

in front of you in line or something,

36:28

you know, something like that,

36:30

that you really should just be able

36:31

to blow off as an adult, be like,

36:32

"Okay, well maybe they're in a hurry,

36:33

you know, whatever."

36:34

But no, I can't let it go when you're like that.

36:35

You have to say something.

36:38

You have to confront.

36:39

You feel it's your job to impose karma

36:40

on people instantly,

36:43

like you are karma's hand (laughs).

36:45

And so that's kinda how I felt.

36:48

So, and I mean, I still feel that way.

36:52

And on those days, I just, you know,

36:53

I go fish or something (laughs), you know?

36:54

I try to avoid people as much as possible.

36:57

Peter

So when you left her,

37:00

is it because you left Savannah

37:01

or because you had to leave her?

37:02

-

It's cause I left Savannah.

37:04

You know, I was really sad to leave her.

37:05

She was like the main reason I wanted to stay

37:07

in Savannah was cause of her.

37:09

She was a great therapist.

37:10

Peter

Can you tell us why you left Savannah?

37:12

-

I left Savannah because the word got out

37:14

that I was living in Savannah,

37:16

and I like to keep a level of anonymity

37:17

to myself and not have people know where I am, and.

37:20

Peter

Have people come up to you

37:25

and said things to you that you don't want people

37:26

to know who you are?

37:28

-

Yeah, of course.

37:30

When I was in D.C., I was waiting tables,

37:30

and I had some people who would recognize me

37:33

while I was waiting tables and...

37:36

Really freaks you out, you know what I mean?

37:40

I want to, you know, let me make this perfectly clear.

37:44

I feel bad about what I did,

37:46

and not everybody I spoke to was guilty

37:47

of what they were there for.

37:51

And I don't think the ones that are guilty

37:53

of what they're there

37:54

for should still be being held accountable for it.

37:55

At the same time, they were not Boy Scouts.

37:58

They were, some of them were very dangerous people,

38:01

and for my protection, for the protection of my family,

38:04

I don't want anybody knowing where I am.

38:08

Peter

Did people say things to you

38:11

that caused you to get angry when you were in D.C.?

38:13

-

I mean daily when I was in D.C., yeah (laughs).

38:18

Peter

You did?

38:21

-

Yeah, I mean I would get infuriated,

38:22

and I think what finally did it at that job

38:23

was "Taxi" was showing on HBO,

38:25

and my boss saw it,

38:29

and at our little meeting before the shift started,

38:32

he was like, "Hey, I saw Damien on HBO last night."

38:35

It's like, all right,

38:38

like now I can't be here anymore.

38:39

You know, I mean, I want to put that part

38:43

of my life as far behind me as I can, you know?

38:44

It's never gonna be, it's always gonna be there.

38:48

It's always gonna be very close to me

38:49

and part of who I am, but I would like

38:51

to distance myself as much as possible from that.

38:53

Peter

Well, what do you think

38:57

would happen today if someone came up to you

38:58

and said, "Hey, I saw "Taxi" to the dark side,

38:59

I remember you"?

39:02

-

Well, I'd probably have to pick up

39:03

and find a new place to go.

39:06

-

Really?

39:08

-

Yeah, yeah.

I don't, I can't risk that.

39:09

Peter

What are you afraid of?

39:14

-

My family's safety more than anything else.

39:17

Peter

And you have,

39:21

you have some children?

39:24

-

I do, I have a daughter, I have a son.

39:25

Peter

And will they know about their father?

39:28

-

I'm trying to work on how

39:32

I'm gonna bring that up to them,

39:33

but yes they will.

39:35

Peter

And are you worried for that?

39:37

-

I mean they're either, yeah, of course.

39:41

But they're either gonna find out from me,

39:42

they're gonna find out on their own,

39:46

they're gonna find out from someone else,

39:47

so it might as well be from me.

39:48

Of course, I'm very apprehensive

39:53

about that day coming,

39:54

but my son, he's a little older now,

39:57

so I think the day is coming for that.

39:59

My daughter still has a few years till,

40:02

and at least then, I'll have practice with my son

40:04

on how to bring it up with her.

40:07

Peter

And so do you see your kids,

40:10

and what kind of, I mean,

40:12

without being any more specific than you want to be,

40:13

what kind of living situation,

40:15

and how has that improved over time?

40:16

-

My son, I just started to see him again

40:20

for the first time in eight years.

40:23

Not, I mean, we've been seeing each other,

40:27

but he's finally able to spend the night with me,

40:29

and he's gonna be with me for the next month.

40:31

That's pretty awesome,

40:35

getting to spend time with him.

40:36

It's a little awkward, you know?

40:37

I'm getting to know my nine-year-old

40:39

for the first time, like really get to know him,

40:42

and that's, it's very awkward,

40:47

and he's getting to know me.

40:48

So it's been kind of uncomfortable,

40:50

but it's been great too.

40:53

Peter

And your daughter?

40:54

Can she spend time with you or is that?

40:56

-

Yeah, just my daughter lives with me

40:57

all the time, yeah.

40:59

Peter

And can you,

41:00

you don't have to tell us,

41:03

but can you tell us where you're living

41:04

or generally where you're living now?

41:07

-

In the Southeast United States.

41:08

Peter

And you're living

41:12

with that girlfriend?

41:13

-

Yes, with my

daughter's mother.

41:16

-

So do you think

about working and what?

41:17

-

Sure, of course, I want to work.

41:19

I mean, but just like, just like I have to cancel therapy

41:20

sometimes that I know I really need

41:24

on a moment's notice, because I wake up,

41:27

and "Hey, I can't come to therapy today,

41:30

because it'd a bad idea.

41:32

I might end up incarcerated if I get behind the wheel."

41:33

You know, whereas my therapist barely understands that.

41:39

Peter

The one in this place?

41:42

-

Well actually my last therapist,

41:44

I just got a new therapist last week.

41:46

Yesterday, was it yesterday?

41:48

No Friday, Friday, just got a new therapist.

41:49

Finally built up a relationship with one,

41:53

and she's gone.

41:55

Peter

She left, she had to leave?

41:56

-

I don't know what the circumstances were, if,

41:57

I don't know if she left,

42:00

or if she's just not working with me anymore,

42:01

what the deal was, but yeah,

42:04

we had started, it takes about 10 months

42:06

for me to really build a trust relationship

42:08

with my therapist to where I can start

42:11

opening up with them.

42:12

You know, it's not kind of thing

42:14

where I feel comfortable just blah.

42:15

So you know, anyway,

42:18

I don't think, there's not too many bosses

42:22

in the world that would understand,

42:24

"Hey, I can't come in today three days a week,

42:26

one day a week, no days a week with X week.

42:29

You know, it's just very inconsistent.

42:32

And there's, I've tried to even volunteer,

42:33

and there's not too many places I can even volunteer.

42:35

They want consistency, and they want dedication,

42:38

and I just can't give them that.

42:41

Peter

Did the therapist ever say to you,

42:43

especially the woman you liked in Savannah,

42:44

that maybe you should try some

42:46

of this volunteering just seeing what happens?

42:48

Peter

Yeah, yeah, she did.

42:50

And that's what had me start looking at it,

42:51

and yeah, they, there's no one like,

42:53

and so what I would do in Savannah

42:57

is I would just like go make sandwiches

42:59

and stuff like that and hand them out

43:00

to the homeless in the parks and things like that.

43:02

You know, they had to do self-volunteering,

43:03

because none of these groups would allow me

43:05

to be like, "Hey I just can't make it today."

43:07

'Cause they're really depending on you to be there.

43:08

And so I didn't want to, you know,

43:11

it was unfair to them to do that to them.

43:13

So, you know, I've got, I'm kind of a self-volunteer,

43:15

(laughs) if that makes any sense.

43:18

Peter

Are you thinking

43:20

of doing that here too?

43:21

-

It's actually illegal where I live

43:22

to feed homeless people unfortunately.

43:24

-

Really?

43:27

-

Yeah,

yeah, it's kind of terrible.

43:28

It's very terrible.

43:30

I got to find some other way to do something, yeah.

43:32

Peter

And just for the audience.

43:36

How do you support yourself then if you can't work?

43:38

-

I'm 100% disabled through the VA,

43:41

so I receive a pension from them.

43:43

Peter

And it's because of the PTSD?

43:46

And does that change, or is that ongoing?

43:49

-

Well, I mean, it could change,

43:52

and hopefully it does change.

43:54

Hopefully I get better, and you know,

43:55

I can work and I don't have to call in, you know,

43:57

I wouldn't be at the point where I'd have

43:59

to call in all the time,

44:00

but I don't foresee that happening anytime

44:02

in the near future.

44:04

Peter

Although you feel

44:06

you're definitely getting better, and you're happier, so.

44:07

-

Yeah. I mean, I'm a lot better than I was,

44:11

but still terrible, if that makes any sense.

44:14

I'm good and terrible (laughs).

44:17

Peter

Do you have nightmares or flashbacks?

44:19

-

I have nightmares.

44:22

I don't do well in thunderstorms, and you know.

44:26

Yeah, I have a lot nightmares.

44:32

Peter

You have someone to call

44:35

when that happens, or do you need to?

44:36

-

I got a dog (laughs).

44:37

I got a dog, and he does me a lot of good.

44:39

He knows when I'm sad,

44:41

and yeah, that's my buddy.

44:44

Yeah, it makes me love him.

44:46

Peter

So he'll be there

44:50

in the nightmare too?

44:51

I mean, with you at the?

44:53

-

I sleep on the couch,

44:55

'cause I'm really restless in bed,

44:57

and I don't want to wake anybody up.

44:59

So yeah, it always seems,

45:02

like when I'm having a bad nightmare,

45:04

he's there when I wake up,

45:05

and he's looking at me.

45:07

The middle of the night,

45:08

he'll just be sitting there staring

45:09

at me like, "Are you okay?,

45:10

you know?

45:11

-

Wow.

-

He's a good dog.

45:12

Peter

Was he, was the dog with you

45:16

in Savannah too?

45:16

-

Yeah, I've had him

45:18

since he was a little puppy.

45:19

Yeah, he's definitely an asset to me

45:22

as far as that, he makes me love him,

45:26

he makes me take care of him,

45:27

and it's just making me love him is the big thing.

45:29

He's a big dog, and he makes sure I give him attention.

45:33

Peter

So Damien where do you see yourself

45:37

five years from now, 10 years from now?

45:40

Do you think about that even?

45:44

-

No, I don't.

45:46

I think 20 years down the road,

45:48

I want to be in Mexico making mezcal,

45:50

move to Jalisco.

45:54

-

Why that?

-

It would give me something to do.

45:56

I could form a co-op

45:58

and uplift a community down there

46:01

and make good mezcal,

46:03

not have to worry about calling in sick to work,

46:08

because, you know, you're the boss, be great (laughs).

46:10

Peter

You can't do that where you're living?

46:14

-

No, no, I couldn't.

46:17

I couldn't do anything like that here.

46:18

I kind of live in the Bible belt,

46:21

so (laughs) they wouldn't be too keen

46:24

on anything I wanted to do for a living.

46:28

Peter

And is there anything else

46:31

that you think you could do

46:33

as a self-employed person

46:35

in the next 20 years before you move to Mexico?

46:37

-

I don't see it.

46:42

I've thought about a lot of things.

46:43

-

You have?

46:44

-

Yeah, oh man,

I would totally love to be a lawyer like yourself.

46:45

And I think I could,

46:48

I think I'm smart enough to make it through law school.

46:49

Can't be that hard, you know,

46:50

pay attention, read, lie.

46:51

Peter

Why wouldn't you apply to law school?

46:54

-

I can't go to courtrooms.

46:55

-

You don't have to.

46:57

-

Yeah, I know,

I know there's other things I could do,

46:58

but like everything I'd want to do

47:00

would involve being in a courtroom,

47:03

and I just can't do it.

47:05

Peter

Why?

47:06

-

Why can't I be in a courtroom?

47:08

Peter

Yeah.

47:10

-

It really brings on a lot

47:11

of bad memories for me being in court.

47:13

'Cause it wasn't just my trial, you know,

47:15

my trial was three days.

47:16

I would be flown down to Fort Bliss, Texas

47:19

at least once every two months

47:21

for any kind of motions, hearing, or anything like that.

47:23

And I remember,

47:25

all right, so I had this bench made knife,

47:31

and I didn't like my judge.

47:33

He was a real prick.

47:35

And so the military in all their genius,

47:36

they never frisked me at my trial.

47:41

And I had this bench made automatic knife

47:43

that I was given in Iraq.

47:45

And I had decided that I was like

47:48

I'm not going to prison for 23 years.

47:50

That's not gonna happen.

47:52

So I told myself, I said, "Well, if I'm found guilty,

47:54

I'm gonna rush to the judge and stab him."

47:56

And there was a bailiff there, you know,

47:59

they'd shot me, okay, then a little death by MP.

48:01

And so I think about that,

48:04

and I think about all the motions,

48:08

'cause every motion that my defense raised was denied.

48:09

Everything the prosecution wanted,

48:14

"Oh yeah, go right ahead."

48:16

He was such a company guy.

48:17

What a tool that judge was, total company guy.

48:18

He knew what his role was, and he did it.

48:22

And so, and I mean, it was a real courtroom,

48:27

and I just, I can't do it.

48:30

I can't do it.

48:31

For traffic tickets, anything like that,

48:32

hey, even if I know I can get out of it,

48:34

I'm not going to court.

48:36

Plead guilty, here you go, take my money.

48:37

It's just, I don't do well with courts,

48:41

and I don't do well with authority,

48:43

and you know, I'm a really anti-social guy, I am, you know?

48:44

I know I can speak well and all that,

48:51

but I just had, I really don't don't care

48:53

for rules and all that jazz.

48:56

I really loved bouncing at the biker bar,

48:59

fit in real well there.

49:01

Peter

Would you still fit it in there?

49:06

-

Yeah, I mean, I like to shave

49:08

and wear a polo and stuff like that,

49:10

so I don't know really, but you know,

49:12

as far as my mentality, I liked that whole freedom

49:15

that they lived by,

49:18

and it was a good group of guys.

49:19

They were, you know, they accepted me

49:21

for being me at my worst,

49:24

and if you can accept anybody,

49:26

it's easy to like people when they're being their best.

49:29

Hey, that's great.

49:32

Like them at their worst,

49:32

and especially like me at my worst, that's tough.

49:34

I don't like me at my worst.

49:36

You know, there's people there that love me,

49:38

call me brother, and you know,

49:39

and I could call them right now,

49:42

and they'd say, "Come on up, sleep in my bed."

49:43

And you know, what more do you want in life than that?

49:46

Peter

Do you have a bike now?

49:49

-

No.

49:51

-

Because?

-

I'd probably kill myself (laughs).

49:54

I'm reckless.

49:57

I like to go fast, and you know, yeah.

49:58

Peter

What about school?

50:01

Why not just go to school, even if it's,

50:02

or go to law school just for the education

50:05

since you like to learn?

50:07

-

My thoughts on the American education system

50:10

is that it's a hustle,

50:13

and I really don't think kids learn anything there.

50:16

Maybe at law, I think in graduate school,

50:19

you definitely do.

50:21

But the whole getting there.

50:22

It's a huge hustle.

50:24

It's a money-making scheme for these institutions.

50:26

I mean, I can remember, not a fan of the police,

50:29

but when you, if you wanted to be a cop,

50:32

hey, you went and rode around

50:34

with the cops for a while.

50:35

They made you a rookie, and you know,

50:36

after you took your little blue band off your hat,

50:39

you were a cop, there you go.

50:41

Now you got to go to school to be,

50:43

and then you had to go to community college to be a cop.

50:44

Now you, now they want a sociology degree, they want,

50:47

it's a hustle, it's a hustle.

50:50

Peter

You have some

50:54

of your college education.

50:54

-

Yeah, a little bit.

50:56

Peter

And you don't want to go back

50:57

and finish that, complete the?

50:58

-

No, no.

51:00

You know, I have a lot of very strong ideas,

51:02

and I don't want to be,

51:05

I don't want to contribute to the problem.

51:07

Like, I really would be totally interested

51:09

in some things, most of them are graduate programs,

51:13

you've got to go through all that other crap.

51:16

And I mean, the bottom line is I'll never use it.

51:17

I'll never use it, you know?

51:20

Jefferson was a self-taught guy.

51:24

Lincoln was self-taught, you know?

51:26

I'm not comparing myself to Jefferson and Lincoln,

51:28

but you can be a pretty smart dude

51:30

and not have a formal education.

51:32

Peter

So how do you spend your days?

51:37

-

I read, I fish, I play with my daughter.

51:40

Sometimes I lock myself in a room and mope (laughs),

51:44

you know, it depends on what day it is.

51:47

I hang out at VFW.

51:50

I feel comfortable there around other veterans.

51:52

Peter

Are there other people there with PTSD?

51:57

-

Oh yeah,

51:59

(laughs) oh yeah there are.

52:00

And that's when I feel comfortable.

52:04

I don't feel comfortable,

52:06

at the same time, I don't like going to groups at the VA.

52:07

There's a bunch of people full of shit there.

52:10

And no, I mean, I'm being totally serious.

52:12

Like you just, it took me five years

52:14

to get my benefits because of people like that

52:17

that are just completely full of shit.

52:18

And, but when you go to the VFW,

52:20

you meet people that really have problems.

52:23

And the people that are there

52:26

during the daytime, they got problems.

52:27

There's a reason they're there drinking during the day,

52:29

and you can relate to them,

52:32

and you feel comfortable with them.

52:34

You don't feel weird to them,

52:35

because you're always wondering, you know (indistinct).

52:36

That's why I go to therapy.

52:38

I don't really talk about the war.

52:39

Talk about here's what I did this week.

52:41

Does this seem weird to you?

52:42

Am I being paranoid?

52:43

Is this, am I handling this situation right?

52:44

Am I thinking clearly?

52:47

That's what, you're bouncing stuff off,

52:48

because I at least, that's the benefit now

52:50

is that I recognize I don't think correctly all the time.

52:52

My thought gets very clouded by my rage.

52:56

And so that's why I go to therapy.

53:00

And so it's nice to have guys like that

53:03

to where you don't have to worry about feeling weird,

53:04

because they're feeling just like you are.

53:06

Everybody there is weird.

53:08

It's a house full of weirdos.

53:09

Peter

This might seem like an odd question,

53:13

but have you ever thought maybe

53:14

you could benefit others by counseling them,

53:16

having been gone through what you've gone through?

53:19

-

Yeah, but then, I mean, you know,

53:22

hey, it's one thing to have your client call out sick.

53:23

I mean, if your therapist calls out

53:25

sick three days a week, you know,

53:27

hey, you got that suicide line handy, you know?

53:29

Yeah.

53:33

There's lots of, you know, there's a lot of stuff.

53:34

I mean, lots of grand ideas,

53:35

but then when it comes down to just practicality of it,

53:36

I mean, it's just not practical.

53:39

Peter

Do you see the date

53:42

I mean where you won't wake up and feel you can't go to work

53:43

or can't go to, outside your room?

53:47

-

I don't see it.

53:51

At the same time, five years ago,

53:52

I didn't see myself being where I am today.

53:54

So I admit that it's a possibility,

53:56

and I hope that it happens,

53:58

but no, I don't see that.

53:59

Peter

And do you still see your parents?

54:01

-

I talk to my parents about every week.

54:04

Peter

And they're still behind you

54:06

and supportive of you?

54:07

-

Oh yeah.

54:09

My parents are awesome.

54:09

Saw them this morning.

54:10

Great people.

54:12

Peter

What did I not ask you

54:15

that maybe you wanted to talk about

54:16

just in understanding how far you've come actually since,

54:18

even since we started talking

54:22

and certainly since you left the military?

54:24

(Damien sniffles)

54:32

Johnny, do you have something?

54:33

And you have buddies from back then

54:37

in the military that you still see, and?

54:40

-

Yeah, I have two friends

54:44

that every girlfriend I've had,

54:46

every roommate I've had

54:50

since the time I've left the military,

54:52

I give them the brief about these two guys

54:54

that, hey, we don't talk, and we don't,

54:57

we maybe talk on the phone twice a year if that,

55:00

but I let them know, hey these two guys,

55:04

and they're gonna just show up,

55:08

and I'm not gonna ask you,

55:09

I'm just gonna tell you they're coming.

55:10

And if you don't like it,

55:12

I'll put you up in a hotel, but they're gonna come.

55:13

And that's just the way it's gonna be.

55:15

And if you don't like it, goodbye,

55:17

but this is a package deal.

55:19

And yeah, so I have two friends that I see a lot.

55:22

Peter

They're friends from back

55:27

when you were an interrogator?

55:28

And were they interrogators too?

55:31

-

Yes, they, I mean, one of them

55:34

and I were counter-intelligence agents,

55:37

but yeah, we all worked as interrogators.

55:39

Peter

And they come visit you,

55:42

and they're like your closest friends?

55:43

-

They're family,

55:47

they're family.

55:48

-

Family.

-

There's like, there's no people I'm closer to

55:49

in this world then those two men.

55:51

Peter

And will you talk to them

55:53

about the past, or you just talk about going forward?

55:54

-

We joke about the good stuff,

55:58

about, I mean, there's a lot of funny stuff

55:59

that happens in war.

56:01

Just like everyday life, there's funny stuff,

56:02

there's sad stuff, there's, you know, scary stuff.

56:05

And I, we don't really talk about the scary stuff

56:08

or the sad stuff too much.

56:10

That doesn't really come out,

56:12

'cause we just all kinda know, we all understand.

56:13

We know that it happened.

56:16

We don't need to remind each other that it happened.

56:17

But yeah, we talk about the funny times a lot.

56:20

Peter

So you think it's therapeutic

56:23

for you too to kind of hang out with them?

56:25

-

Oh of course.

56:30

I still feel better, sad when they leave,

56:31

happy to see them, and you know, yeah.

56:33

It's good, it's good to see them.

56:35

Peter

Do they work?

56:36

-

One of them does.

56:39

Yeah, 'cause he has to.

56:41

He doesn't, he took a plea,

56:43

and so he got a dishonorable discharge,

56:48

so he doesn't get his VA benefits.

56:50

He very well should, but.

56:52

Peter

You lost your benefits

56:55

if you get a dishonorable discharge?

56:56

-

Oh yeah.

56:57

The VA won't have anything to do with you,

56:58

which is unfortunate if you still served, but yeah.

57:00

Peter

So there's no support system

57:04

for someone like that.

57:06

-

He has nothing, he has nothing

57:07

but the other guy and myself, we're it.

57:09

I mean, he's got really good parents himself.

57:13

He's got family, but yeah,

57:16

he's kind of on his own.

57:18

Peter

So has there ever been any organization

57:21

that looks out for people who are dishonorably discharged

57:23

knowing that they're really at a loss?

57:26

They have no, they have nothing?

57:28

-

No one cares.

57:30

No one cares about them.

57:31

You know, they were, nobody,

57:33

people care about as much as them

57:35

as about as much as people who care about convicted felons.

57:36

They can't vote, so who gives a shit to help them?

57:39

You know, sad but true.

57:44

Peter

You could care.

57:48

-

Yeah, I mean, oh, I mean,

57:49

I totally care about this guy.

57:50

Like there's nothing in the world I wouldn't do for him.

57:52

I'll drop everything in my life to go be by his side.

57:54

But yeah, as far as groups,

58:01

nobody gives a shit.

58:02

And there's a bunch of them.

58:04

There's a bunch of good people

58:05

I know that have dishonorable discharges.

58:05

You know, they might've had a lapse of judgment,

58:09

they might've pled out to something

58:11

that they shouldn't have.

58:13

There's lots of reasons people get them, you know,

58:15

and a big thing like we were talking

58:17

about earlier is the, it's called dual diagnosis,

58:19

when you have PTSD and chemical dependency together,

58:22

and unfortunately the Department of Defense,

58:25

if you piss hot, you can get dishonorably discharged.

58:27

You're done, you're done, that's it.

58:29

And so, because you have textbook

58:31

diagnosed dual diagnosis,

58:35

because you're actually doing what they expect you to do,

58:37

what we know what the DSM-4 says,

58:40

or I think on the (indistinct),

58:42

that, hey, here's what's gonna happen to these people.

58:43

When that happens to you, the DOD says bye-bye,

58:47

and then you have no benefits

58:50

for having a textbook case of PTSD.

58:51

Peter

So if you had pled guilty

58:55

and taken the plea, would you have lost,

58:57

would you have been dishonorably discharged?

58:59

-

Oh yeah.

59:01

Peter

That's an automatic felony?

59:02

-

Yeah.

59:03

-

Wow.

-

Well, I mean, I think it actually depends

59:05

on what state you're in if you're a felon,

59:07

if it's counted as a felony against you or not.

59:09

But yeah, your benefits are gone.

59:13

Like you can forget about ever going to the VA

59:15

for anything, even, you know, I mean,

59:17

'cause even if you don't receive a pension,

59:19

it's $8 prescriptions, it's $25 doctor visits,

59:21

it's $35 hospital stays.

59:25

It's not the best treatment in the world,

59:27

but it's better than nothing, you know?

59:31

And, but yeah, you get nothing.

59:35

Absolutely zero if you got dishonorable,

59:37

the VA won't touch you.

59:40

Peter

So, and how many of these people

59:45

you think are PTSD and drugs?

59:47

Probably a lot of those people who get to some of it.

59:51

-

From what I understand, I went to,

59:53

one thing I didn't mention is I went to,

59:56

I went through two months

59:59

of a three month inpatient program for PTSD

1:00:00

in Martinsburg, West Virginia.

1:00:03

And the reason I only did two months was

1:00:05

because it's really for like sexual trauma

1:00:08

and combat trauma, which I had some combat trauma.

1:00:10

That's not really where my issue lies.

1:00:14

My issue more lies in what I did,

1:00:16

and I just didn't know how to treat that.

1:00:17

And you know, the head of the program there said,

1:00:19

"You know, I really don't have anything for you."

1:00:21

So after two months she let me go from there.

1:00:23

Peter

When was that?

1:00:26

-

That was in 2010, I think,

1:00:27

yeah, about November, October, November of 2010.

1:00:31

Peter

Did you volunteer,

1:00:34

or did someone suggest you go there?

1:00:35

-

The gentleman, the social worker

1:00:37

that I was seeing, he said,

1:00:39

"You know, you might be able to benefit from this program."

1:00:40

And he sent me, he put in a referral

1:00:43

for me to go there, and I was on a wait list, wait list,

1:00:45

and one day, they had an opening,

1:00:47

and he called, and I was like, "Hey, I'll go."

1:00:48

And it was really, it was really wild,

1:00:51

because they used to furlough us on the weekends.

1:00:53

After you had been there for like three weeks,

1:00:56

they would furlough you, right?

1:00:57

(laughs) And the only thing to do

1:01:01

in Martinsburg is there's a big horse track

1:01:04

and casino right there, which they say,

1:01:06

"Oh, don't go there, don't go there

1:01:08

with your impulse control issues," right?

1:01:09

And then I'll tell you how much we didn't go there.

1:01:11

And you know, or you could go get a hotel room,

1:01:14

get a drink, like six of you.

1:01:17

And so, that was terrible.

1:01:19

Like I feel bad for the people

1:01:21

in Martinsburg, West Virginia.

1:01:23

It's great because you know,

1:01:24

you need to get out of there,

1:01:25

and then the hospital they keep you at,

1:01:27

they keep you in barracks

1:01:28

that they used to keep Germany PWs in, in World War II.

1:01:29

So it's like a really, really creepy hospital.

1:01:32

You know, these long corridors,

1:01:36

long empty corridors.

1:01:38

I'm like I don't believe in ghosts.

1:01:39

I'm not easily scared,

1:01:40

but it was a really creepy place,

1:01:42

and it was a mental hospital.

1:01:44

And then like the VA police used to just like,

1:01:46

they didn't want, they didn't want to mess with us.

1:01:49

Like they were clear across campus.

1:01:51

And so if like a fight happened,

1:01:52

they really just let it go and play out,

1:01:54

because they didn't want to involve them.

1:01:55

So they didn't want to walk into the ward

1:01:57

with 200 combat vets who are all raging.

1:01:58

So they kind of just let it go.

1:02:02

It sometimes like turned into WWF at night.

1:02:03

At 4:00, all the staff just left, like nothing.

1:02:06

There was nobody there.

1:02:08

Peter

What's WWF?

1:02:09

-

Like wrestling,

1:02:11

like professional,

1:02:12

-

Oh.

-

like it was just terrible, like cage match in there.

1:02:13

And the only thing I'm like right now,

1:02:15

I'm gonna watch wrestling like I did when I was little,

1:02:16

but (laughs), but yeah, I mean,

1:02:18

it was really, really a wild place.

1:02:21

Like they could do a sit-com

1:02:23

of what happened in that place.

1:02:24

It was really insane, as you can imagine,

1:02:25

it was insane in the mental hospital.

1:02:28

It was crazy (laughs).

1:02:29

I saw some really wild shit go down there.

1:02:31

Peter

So how could it benefit anyone?

1:02:35

-

You know, it seemed to do some good

1:02:38

for the people that were there that were really involved.

1:02:40

And I mean, I learned some stuff.

1:02:43

I learned a lot about that,

1:02:44

while I was there was the first time I ever admitted,

1:02:45

well, maybe I do have PTSD, maybe,

1:02:47

'cause I got to meet other veterans,

1:02:50

and I'll give it to the Marines.

1:02:51

The Marines knew that that was the best place

1:02:53

for their Marines to be.

1:02:55

So they didn't wait for him to get out.

1:02:56

They sent active Marines there.

1:02:57

I met a really good guy there

1:03:01

who was an active Marine and,

1:03:02

and yeah, the Marines took good care of their Marines,

1:03:05

they did.

1:03:08

They Army not so much with the soldiers,

1:03:09

but the Marines took care of the Marines

1:03:10

from what I saw, or they're starting to.

1:03:12

Peter

So you finally

1:03:15

could acknowledge your PTSD

1:03:16

because there were others there with you?

1:03:18

-

Yeah, yeah, you know,

1:03:20

it was like, you know, being around other people

1:03:21

that have very similar problems.

1:03:23

And the other thing I'll say is that again,

1:03:24

I felt like I was around, you know, great company.

1:03:26

Like, you know, you don't feel weird.

1:03:29

You're like, "Oh, well, I thought I was weird,

1:03:31

but look at what this guy is doing.

1:03:33

Like he's," (laughs) you know?

1:03:34

Peter

So maybe it did benefit you even

1:03:38

though you dropped out after two months.

1:03:39

-

Yeah, yeah.

1:03:41

I mean, yeah, it definitely benefited me being there.

1:03:43

Peter

Does it still exist?

1:03:45

-

Oh, I'm sure it does.

1:03:47

They have programs like that all over the country,

1:03:48

but the one in Martinsburg was really good.

1:03:52

Peter

And you saw a therapist every day

1:03:56

while you were there, obviously.

1:03:57

-

Oh yeah, yeah.

1:03:58

I saw therapists every, I mean, you pretty much went

1:03:59

to classes, and you had to have a regimen

1:04:02

and wake up, make your bed and do all that.

1:04:04

And that did some good, you know,

1:04:06

for anybody that's been in the military,

1:04:08

getting back into a regimen,

1:04:09

it's really good for you, but.

1:04:10

Peter

So what advice, listening to you Damien,

1:04:14

what advice would you give the military

1:04:17

and the government to, for people like you and?

1:04:18

-

I think the first thing they need to do is instead

1:04:23

of kicking people out who piss on on piss tests

1:04:26

for doing what the DSM-5 says that they should be doing

1:04:28

that they need to start getting their soldiers

1:04:33

and sailors and Marines and airmen help

1:04:35

instead of just showing them the door,

1:04:37

because that really condemns them

1:04:40

to a life of no help at that point, you know?

1:04:42

Forget, you know, let's not mention,

1:04:45

okay, so you're not getting your free therapy anymore,

1:04:48

but now you have to work a shit job,

1:04:50

because nobody wants to hire you,

1:04:52

because you've checked

1:04:53

that you got a dishonorable discharge

1:04:54

from the military on that little box there.

1:04:55

So, you know, it really screws them up.

1:04:58

Why?

1:05:00

Because they went and fought for their country

1:05:00

and got a little fucked up in the head

1:05:02

while they were there and came back

1:05:04

and tried to ease their pain,

1:05:05

because you don't encourage people

1:05:06

to go seek help to begin with, you know?

1:05:07

They need change their whole outlook on that.

1:05:10

That's really it.

1:05:16

They start there, that'd be a great first step.

1:05:17

That'd be a great first step.

1:05:20

Start taking care and fulfilling their promise

1:05:21

as NCOs and officers take care of their soldiers

1:05:24

and airmen and sailors and Marines.

1:05:27

Peter

And why wouldn't they do that you think?

1:05:29

-

'Cause it doesn't comply with good order and discipline.

1:05:32

They tell you not to do drugs,

1:05:35

you're not supposed to do drugs,

1:05:35

and that's just that simple to them

1:05:37

in their collective thought.

1:05:39

They don't want to look at you

1:05:43

as an individual who's suffering with mental problems,

1:05:44

is discouraged from going and seeking mental help,

1:05:48

and is gonna try to ease their pain any way they can.

1:05:51

And believe it or not, it might be a myth,

1:05:55

but I've heard there's a lot

1:05:59

of ill goings on around military bases (laughs).

1:06:00

So it's pretty easy to find drugs around the military base.

1:06:05

You know, it's there for them.

1:06:12

It's there for them, and people are doing it,

1:06:13

and you just want to ease your pain,

1:06:14

and they don't, they just get shown the door.

1:06:17

Peter

Has the military

1:06:22

ever asked you for advice on?

1:06:23

-

(laughs) No, the military doesn't want anything

1:06:25

to do with me.

1:06:28

I think I've kind of been a thorn in their side

1:06:31

for the past 10 years.

1:06:33

Peter

And do you find sympathetic souls

1:06:35

of the VA who kind of agree with you

1:06:36

that maybe it should start sooner?

1:06:38

-

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

1:06:40

The VA and the DOD, as much as they say

1:06:42

they work together, they really butt heads

1:06:44

on a lot of stuff, because a lot of the,

1:06:46

maybe the VA wouldn't have such a heavy case load

1:06:48

if the DOD did their job before letting them loose.

1:06:51

Peter

So the VA kind of understands

1:06:56

what you just told us.

1:06:57

-

Every counselor I've had totally understands that,

1:07:00

you know, whether they'd be willing to admit it or not,

1:07:04

because you gotta remember, they're still company people.

1:07:06

They know who writes their check.

1:07:08

And so I don't know if they'd ever admit it, but yeah,

1:07:10

they all think that.

1:07:15

They all think it's total crap

1:07:16

that these people would just get shown the door

1:07:17

for doing what they're expected to be doing

1:07:19

in their situation.

1:07:22

Cameraman

Peter, we've got 10 minutes.

1:07:24

Peter

Okay, well, we're almost done.

1:07:25

So Damien, I just want to close,

1:07:27

you said earlier, and I just want to,

1:07:30

I think it's really important

1:07:32

for people who are watching,

1:07:33

you're kinda happy today, or you like yourself better today,

1:07:34

and you feel like, you know,

1:07:38

I mean, you've come through a lot,

1:07:40

but on some level, you probably gained a lot from it.

1:07:41

It's not that you necessarily need

1:07:44

to be the person you were before.

1:07:45

It seems like you're a stronger, more thoughtful,

1:07:47

more aware than you were.

1:07:50

And I mean, is that how you describe yourself?

1:07:55

-

Well, yeah.

1:07:58

I mean, you know, how do you

1:07:59

that this apple you're eating tastes great

1:08:01

unless you've had one that tastes like shit, you know?

1:08:03

You gotta eat the shit sandwich before you know

1:08:06

that what you have is great.

1:08:09

And so, yeah, I mean a lot of suffering

1:08:11

and a lot of hard times, you know?

1:08:15

but I know when I have it good now,

1:08:19

because I can always look back,

1:08:22

and anytime I feel down, I can look back,

1:08:23

(indistinct) not then, you know,

1:08:26

or anytime I'm feeling bad for myself,

1:08:28

I can think about my buddy that took the plea

1:08:30

that's not getting the shitty VA care.

1:08:33

Shitty VA care's better than no VA care.

1:08:36

And so, you know, it's just allowed me

1:08:39

to have a different outlook on life instead of woe is me.

1:08:43

There's a lot of other,

1:08:45

there's one person in this world I guess

1:08:47

that has it worse than everybody else,

1:08:49

and I feel really bad for that guy or gal,

1:08:50

but it's not me.

1:08:53

And I know that, and that's what it's helped me realize.

1:08:55

I'm not that person.

1:08:57

Peter

Well, I think unless there's something

1:09:01

that you've thought of since, you know,

1:09:03

I think we're done, and I want to thank you.

1:09:05

We need 20 minutes of room tone,

1:09:09

(laughs) 20 seconds of room tone again,

1:09:12

-

Okay.

1:09:14

-

so, and then

we'll also (indistinct).

1:09:15

-

Okay,

begin room tone.

1:09:19

Okay.

1:09:28

Corsetti, Damien, interview 3 - Interview master file

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