Rasul, Shafiq - Interview master file
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Interviewer | So people who are watching | 0:07 |
will know what we're doing, I'll say a few things | 0:08 | |
they'd not heard but just, | 0:11 | |
and then I'll start with general question | 0:13 | |
about the first arrest. | 0:16 | |
- | Okay. | 0:19 |
Interviewer | And then we can just go from there. | 0:20 |
So-- | 0:21 | |
- | Okay, whenever you're ready. | |
Interviewer | Okay, good afternoon. | 0:22 |
We are very grateful to you for joining us | 0:25 | |
and participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project. | 0:28 | |
We invite you to speak of your experiences | 0:33 | |
at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. | 0:36 | |
We are hoping to collect your story | 0:38 | |
and the story of other men who have been there | 0:41 | |
and who have been, and the testimony of all the men | 0:44 | |
who have been brought to Guantanamo. | 0:47 | |
- | Okay. | 0:50 |
Interviewer | We are creating an archive of the stories | 0:51 |
so that people in America and in the world | 0:54 | |
will have a better understanding | 0:57 | |
of what you and others have experienced. | 0:58 | |
Future generations must know what happened, | 1:02 | |
and by telling your story, you're contributing to history. | 1:05 | |
We appreciate your courage | 1:09 | |
and your willingness to speak to us. | 1:11 | |
If at any time you want to take a break, | 1:14 | |
just let us know, and we'll take a break. | 1:16 | |
And if there's anything you say that you would like | 1:18 | |
to remove, just tell us and we'll remove it. | 1:20 | |
Okay, and we're going to just start | 1:23 | |
with a few basic questions, just to have it on tape. | 1:25 | |
The first question. | 1:30 | |
Your name? | 1:31 | |
- | My name's Shafiq Rasul. | |
- | And your country of origin? | 1:34 |
- | The UK. | |
England, UK. | 1:37 | |
- | And your hometown? | 1:38 |
- | Tipton. | |
- | And your date of birth? | 1:41 |
- | 15th of April, 1977. | |
- | And your age then? | 1:45 |
- | 32. | |
- | And your nationality? | 1:47 |
- | British. | |
- | What languages do you speak? | 1:50 |
- | Mainly English, | |
but I speak Urdu and Punjabi as well. | 1:54 | |
- | And your religion? | 1:57 |
- | Muslim. | |
- | And marital status? | 1:59 |
- | Married. | |
- | With children? | 2:02 |
- | Yes, one daughter. | |
Interviewer | And your education? | 2:05 |
- | I went to university, but I didn't finish. | 2:13 |
Interviewer | Okay, and where were you living | 2:14 |
before you were picked up? | 2:17 | |
- | In Tipton. | 2:20 |
- | In Tipton? | |
Interviewer | And now you're living-- | 2:22 |
- | Back here-- | 2:24 |
- | In Tipton? | |
- | Yeah. | 2:26 |
Interviewer | And the date of arrival to Guantanamo, | 2:27 |
and when you left Guantanamo? | 2:29 | |
- | Is mid-January 2002, and we left, I think, | 2:30 |
it was the 7th of March, 2004. | 2:35 | |
Interviewer | Okay, so we'd like to begin | 2:38 |
by just asking you if you could tell us | 2:41 | |
and describe in as many details as possible | 2:44 | |
how it was when you were first arrested, | 2:47 | |
up to the time you were brought to Guantanamo. | 2:49 | |
And we can break that into pieces. | 2:53 | |
If you want to, you can just start telling what happened | 2:55 | |
when you were arrested, | 2:58 | |
where you were taken and what happened at those places, | 2:59 | |
up to the time you to Guantanamo. | 3:03 | |
- | We were actually in Sheberghan Prison. | 3:07 |
It was a time when then Taliban had lost power, | 3:10 | |
and the Northern Alliance had taken over, | 3:14 | |
and all the non-Afghanis were arrested | 3:16 | |
and put into Sheberghan Prison. | 3:19 | |
And we were there for about a month. | 3:21 | |
And the US military came and took out, | 3:25 | |
basically all the non-Afghanis from the prison | 3:29 | |
and interrogated them. | 3:34 | |
And we were put onto a plane to Qandahar. | 3:38 | |
We was taken off that plane, | 3:43 | |
interrogated again and put into the Qandahar camp. | 3:46 | |
I think it was about six or seven times | 3:55 | |
we were interrogated by different people there. | 3:56 | |
And then about 2 1/2 weeks later, | 4:00 | |
we were flown out of Qandahar | 4:05 | |
and taken to a place which we didn't know, | 4:08 | |
which turned out later to be Guantanamo Bay. | 4:11 | |
But for the first three months | 4:13 | |
that we were there, we didn't know where we were. | 4:15 | |
Interviewer | No one ever told you where you were? | 4:17 |
- | No. | 4:19 |
Interviewer | And did you ask where you were? | 4:20 |
- | Yeah. | 4:21 |
We'd get different answers from different people. | 4:22 | |
The day we left Qandahar, | 4:25 | |
we were told that they were gonna reopen Alcatraz | 4:28 | |
and take us all there. | 4:32 | |
Interviewer | Really? | 4:34 |
Did you think you were headed to Alcatraz? | 4:35 | |
- | Yeah, I've seen the movies about it. | 4:36 |
So that was the story that was going around a lot | 4:37 | |
of the soldiers in Qandahar. | 4:41 | |
So you tend to believe it when you hear it | 4:43 | |
from numerous people when you're there. | 4:46 | |
Interviewer | Well, can I go back to the beginning, | 4:48 |
when the Americans first came? | 4:50 | |
- | Yeah. | 4:52 |
Interviewer | What did they first say to you? | 4:53 |
What were they interested in, | 4:54 | |
and what were they asking you, | 4:55 | |
that very first time they interrogated you? | 4:57 | |
- | What we were doing in Afghanistan, | 5:01 |
that was the first thing. | 5:03 | |
And if we had links to Al-Qaeda, | 5:04 | |
and if we had any links to what happened | 5:07 | |
in America, in New York, | 5:10 | |
and the people that we'd met while we were in Afghanistan. | 5:12 | |
And they weren't really interested in what we were saying, | 5:17 | |
'cause they had set in mind that these guys are British. | 5:20 | |
They're from the UK. | 5:23 | |
So they must be members of Al-Qaeda. | 5:24 | |
Interviewer | Why would you be members of Al-Qaeda | 5:26 |
because you're British? | 5:29 | |
- | 'Cause we were British, really, | 5:30 |
that's the only reason that they gave. | 5:31 | |
Interviewer | Really? | 5:33 |
- | Yeah, and that we must be some high ranking officials | 5:34 |
in Al-Qaeda because we were British. | 5:37 | |
And they were not really prepared to listen | 5:40 | |
to what we had to say. | 5:42 | |
Interviewer | Were they military or civilians | 5:44 |
who were interrogating you at the beginning? | 5:46 | |
Or both? | 5:49 | |
- | They were in military clothing, | 5:50 |
but there's three of them that I got interrogated, | 5:54 | |
and they all had beards. | 5:59 | |
So-- | 6:01 | |
Interviewer | So did you think they were Arabs | 6:02 |
or were they Americans? | 6:05 | |
- | The first one, he was like a big stocky guy | 6:06 |
and he was tan, so I thought he was a Arab. | 6:08 | |
But as soon as he opened his mouth, | 6:12 | |
he had an American accent. | 6:14 | |
So I thought, what's going on here? | 6:14 | |
And I was taken out of my cell. | 6:17 | |
And I don't know if you've seen Sheberghan Prison. | 6:21 | |
There's a long walkway to the end, | 6:23 | |
and there's a lot of soldiers sitting there with guns, | 6:25 | |
just like pointing the guns at me. | 6:29 | |
And I didn't know what was going on. | 6:31 | |
And I was taken there, and just stood in front of him, | 6:33 | |
and they brought a translator and I think he was Afghani, | 6:37 | |
'cause I couldn't understand what he was saying to me. | 6:43 | |
I said, "I speak English." | 6:45 | |
Well, as soon as I said I speak English, | 6:47 | |
everyone's face just went like, this guy speaks English? | 6:49 | |
And they're like surprised. | 6:53 | |
And-- | 6:55 | |
- | I think daddy is in there. | |
- | Do you want me to shut him up? | 6:58 |
- | Do you want to take a break or-- | 7:00 |
- | Yeah, I'll get him to go out and play. | 7:00 |
- | Sorry. | 7:03 |
- | Okay. | |
(inaudible) | 7:04 | |
Your phone is out of time. | 7:05 | |
- | It's all right. | |
Interviewer | So you were saying | 7:08 |
that all of a sudden you said you spoke English, | 7:09 | |
and then they were all happy? | 7:11 | |
Or they were-- | 7:13 | |
- | They were more shocked than happy. | 7:15 |
Then they started asking me where I was from, | 7:17 | |
and told them I was from the UK. | 7:20 | |
Then as soon as I told them I was from the UK, | 7:24 | |
they took me into a separate room. | 7:27 | |
And just like, 'cause I had my hands tied behind my back, | 7:29 | |
and my feet were shackled together at the time, | 7:32 | |
but basically I couldn't walk. | 7:34 | |
So everywhere we was being taken, | 7:36 | |
we were getting dragged there. | 7:39 | |
And I was put in the room. | 7:41 | |
And there was a guy, I don't know if he was military, | 7:43 | |
'cause he had civilian clothing on. | 7:46 | |
And there was a soldier standing in the corner | 7:48 | |
with a rifle in his hand. | 7:50 | |
And the guy said to me, "If you move, he's gonna shoot you." | 7:52 | |
Which is like a bit, it's quite scary. | 7:56 | |
And he was the one questioning me, | 7:59 | |
"Why did you come to Afghanistan? | 8:02 | |
Who are you working for?" | 8:05 | |
And questions based around that. | 8:07 | |
And I was there for about 20 minutes, | 8:10 | |
being interrogated by him. | 8:13 | |
Then we were taken outside, | 8:15 | |
and a hood was put over our head | 8:16 | |
and it was taped over our eyes, so we couldn't see anything. | 8:19 | |
And then we were made to sit in a place. | 8:22 | |
I could feel those people sitting next to me, | 8:26 | |
which I assumed that they were all in hoods as well. | 8:29 | |
Then about, it must've been | 8:33 | |
about an hour we were sitting there, | 8:35 | |
they were bringing more people in, | 8:37 | |
because you could hear them coming in. | 8:39 | |
Then we were stood up, basically dragged, | 8:40 | |
thrown onto the back of a truck. | 8:43 | |
And then they were walking around. | 8:47 | |
I think they started numbering us then. | 8:49 | |
Interviewer | Did what? | 8:51 |
- | Putting numbers on us so they could identify us. | 8:52 |
Then I don't know how long we were sitting there, | 8:56 | |
because when they started, it was morning time. | 9:00 | |
And by the time the truck left the prison, | 9:02 | |
it was getting dark. | 9:07 | |
And we were taken to what I later realized | 9:09 | |
was Mazar-i-Sharif Airport, | 9:13 | |
and put onto the back of a plane and flown to Qandahar. | 9:15 | |
Interviewer | When you got to Qandahar, | 9:21 |
did you know you were in Qandahar? | 9:23 | |
- | No, 'cause we were still hooded | 9:25 |
when we were taken off the plane. | 9:26 | |
And we were taken off the plane and put into a row | 9:29 | |
and then they put this rope around our arms. | 9:31 | |
And they were putting that around everyone's arms, | 9:34 | |
and they were like taking them, | 9:37 | |
which seemed like they were making us walk in circles | 9:39 | |
for a long time. | 9:43 | |
Then we were put into a tent | 9:45 | |
and made to lie down on the floor, | 9:48 | |
with our hands behind our back, our feet shackled together. | 9:51 | |
And just there for a really long time, | 9:54 | |
while, I think, they were processing everybody | 9:57 | |
that was coming in. | 9:59 | |
And they were like, two soldiers would come. | 10:01 | |
If you'd try to move, they'd come | 10:06 | |
and put their knees into your back. | 10:07 | |
And at this time, while we were in Sheberghan, | 10:09 | |
we weren't getting any food. | 10:11 | |
So I'd lost about, I think it was about 40 kilos in weight. | 10:13 | |
I was really, really, really weak. | 10:17 | |
I couldn't move. | 10:20 | |
And the two guys standing on your back, | 10:21 | |
it was really painful. | 10:24 | |
Then we were taken out of there | 10:26 | |
and taken into another tent, | 10:28 | |
and all our clothes were cut off our body. | 10:31 | |
And while this was happening, | 10:34 | |
we were being interrogated at the same time by somebody-- | 10:36 | |
Interpreter | While he was taking your clothes off? | 10:39 |
- | While they were taking our clothes off, | 10:41 |
ripping the clothes off, asking. | 10:42 | |
One of the questions he was asking, | 10:43 | |
where my passport was, and I was explaining to him | 10:44 | |
that it was in Pakistan. | 10:46 | |
And he wanted an address. | 10:48 | |
I didn't even know what the address was. | 10:49 | |
And he goes, "Oh, you should know." | 10:51 | |
And at the same time, having your clothes ripped off you, | 10:53 | |
and some guy behind you pushing you and shoving you | 10:55 | |
and being interrogated at the same time. | 10:58 | |
And at the time, you don't know what's going on, | 11:02 | |
what's gonna happen, if they're gonna kill you, | 11:05 | |
who these people are. | 11:07 | |
It sounds like it's American military, | 11:08 | |
but they could be anybody. | 11:10 | |
Then our hoods were taken off our heads | 11:12 | |
for about five seconds while they took our photos, | 11:15 | |
put back on. | 11:17 | |
And we were thrown into this barbed wire cell, | 11:18 | |
and they had a pile of clothes there, | 11:22 | |
which they told us to put on. | 11:24 | |
And then we were told to sleep, which was impossible. | 11:26 | |
They had flood lights in there, | 11:35 | |
and they had soldiers constantly walking up and down | 11:37 | |
and shouting, which made it really difficult. | 11:39 | |
I don't know if I got any sleep, | 11:44 | |
but in the morning we were woken up | 11:46 | |
and taken to be interrogated in a tent. | 11:50 | |
Which they made us sit on the floor, | 11:56 | |
hands tied behind our back. | 11:58 | |
And there's about three people in there with guns. | 12:00 | |
And there's three people sitting on the table in front of me | 12:03 | |
with military uniform on, and they were interrogating me. | 12:07 | |
And then they asked me a lot of questions, | 12:11 | |
and they threw these papers in front of me, | 12:14 | |
which were in Arabic, | 12:15 | |
and they told me to translate it. | 12:16 | |
I said, "I don't, I can read it, | 12:18 | |
but I can't translate it for you." | 12:20 | |
Which they didn't believe what I was saying. | 12:21 | |
- | They did or they didn't? | 12:23 |
- | They didn't. | |
- | Did not. | 12:25 |
- | Yeah. | |
And that went on for a while, | 12:27 | |
about half an hour, 40 minutes. | 12:30 | |
Then we was taken out and put into an outdoor camp | 12:32 | |
where we spent most of our time, in that camp. | 12:37 | |
And then we were interrogated on different occasions. | 12:40 | |
And one occasion, we was interrogated, | 12:43 | |
well, I found out now he was American, | 12:46 | |
putting on a British accent, | 12:49 | |
and he told me he was actually British. | 12:51 | |
But as soon as I walked in the room, I saw him, | 12:53 | |
he had an American uniform on, | 12:55 | |
which I straightaway knew that he's telling me he's British, | 12:57 | |
but why is he wearing the American uniform for? | 13:00 | |
I asked that what's going on here. | 13:03 | |
He threw some papers in front of me. | 13:04 | |
He said that you're on the Interpol most wanted list. | 13:07 | |
And he put the paper down. | 13:13 | |
But as soon as I went to read it, he pulled it away from me. | 13:15 | |
So I didn't get me a chance to read it. | 13:17 | |
And he also said to me, "24 hours after you left home, | 13:19 | |
your house was raided and your family was interrogated." | 13:22 | |
Which I straightaway knew he was lying, | 13:26 | |
because as soon as I got to Pakistan, I phoned home, | 13:28 | |
and about every day I was there, for about six days, | 13:31 | |
I was there, I was phoning home constantly. | 13:35 | |
And I knew that he was lying. | 13:38 | |
Well, I didn't say anything to him. | 13:40 | |
And he was saying, "Oh, who funded you to come to Pakistan? | 13:42 | |
Where did you get the money from?" | 13:47 | |
And I said, "I was working. | 13:49 | |
I was at university at the time, so I could fund my own." | 13:50 | |
And he said, "I'll pray to God that you paid by credit card. | 13:54 | |
So we can find out." | 13:57 | |
And when I said, "I haven't got a credit card, | 13:59 | |
everything I was doing was by cash," | 14:00 | |
he said that you could be lying. | 14:03 | |
Then he was saying that certain people | 14:06 | |
in the UK said that you were a member of this group, | 14:08 | |
a member of that group. | 14:12 | |
And the way he was saying it, it was just like, | 14:14 | |
I knew he was lying, | 14:18 | |
but it was like putting these accusations on you, | 14:20 | |
and you didn't know what the consequences | 14:23 | |
of these accusations was gonna be. | 14:26 | |
So you was scared of what was gonna happen. | 14:28 | |
And then I'll say, "No, this isn't me. | 14:33 | |
I don't know who you're talking about. | 14:35 | |
I'm not a member of any group." | 14:36 | |
But he weren't prepared to listen to what we had to say. | 14:37 | |
Interviewer | Were you by yourself | 14:42 |
when you were interrogated, | 14:43 | |
or were you with others during the interrogations? | 14:44 | |
- | Other detainees? | 14:48 |
- | Other detainees. | 14:49 |
- | No. | |
- | Always-- | 14:50 |
- | You were always by yourself. | |
- | Yeah. | 14:51 |
Interviewer | And do they ever beat you or mistreat you | 14:52 |
during the interrogations? | 14:54 | |
- | Many times. | 14:56 |
That was the first time I ever got beaten. | 14:57 | |
The soldier is basically taking you to your interrogation, | 14:59 | |
you'd have the shackles on your feet, | 15:03 | |
but they wouldn't give you a chance to walk. | 15:06 | |
They'd basically drag you there | 15:08 | |
and you weren't allowed to look up, | 15:10 | |
although they'd put a hood over your head, | 15:12 | |
you still weren't allowed to look up. | 15:14 | |
They'd force your head down, | 15:16 | |
so you'd be in pain going to interrogation. | 15:18 | |
Then you'd be thrown onto the seat, | 15:20 | |
and they'd be holding you down, | 15:22 | |
although you're not gonna go anywhere. | 15:26 | |
Your hands and feet are shackled together. | 15:27 | |
They'd be holding you down in such a way | 15:28 | |
that they're causing pain. | 15:30 | |
Interviewer | And did it ever get worse? | 15:34 |
Did they ever have dogs or were there other instances-- | 15:35 | |
- | Not in Qandahar, no. | 15:42 |
- | No? | |
And did you see anybody else get mistreated | 15:44 | |
while you were in Qandahar? | 15:46 | |
Did you notice? | 15:47 | |
- | There was, when we were in the camp outside, | 15:49 |
they used to bring in new people. | 15:51 | |
And the way they used to grab 'em and throw 'em, | 15:52 | |
punch 'em and kick 'em about, you'd see that-- | 15:55 | |
- | All the time? | 15:58 |
- | All the time happening. | |
Interviewer | And did they ever ask you | 16:00 |
different questions at the different interrogations? | 16:02 | |
Or was it the same kinds of questions again and again? | 16:05 | |
- | I think it was just like the same questions, really, | 16:08 |
about Al-Qaeda, who do you know in the UK, | 16:11 | |
who sent you to Afghanistan, what did you come for. | 16:14 | |
Interviewer | And when they sent you to Guantanamo, | 16:17 |
did they tell you at any time they're going | 16:18 | |
to take you somewhere else, | 16:20 | |
or did they just one-- | 16:21 | |
- | No. | |
We were told, there was about two soldiers | 16:23 | |
that we used to talk to. | 16:26 | |
And they told us that they're gonna move us somewhere. | 16:28 | |
And one of them told us we was going to Alcatraz. | 16:31 | |
And the other one said, "You're going somewhere hot." | 16:33 | |
That's all we were told. | 16:37 | |
Interviewer | And what were you thinking during that time? | 16:40 |
What was going through your mind | 16:43 | |
while all this was happening? | 16:45 | |
- | I didn't know what was going on, | 16:48 |
'cause we didn't know we was going. | 16:49 | |
I just assumed that they're gonna take us to the US | 16:50 | |
and put us in a prison there and keep us there. | 16:53 | |
Interviewer | And you had no idea? | 16:57 |
- | No. | 16:58 |
Interviewer | And could you describe the plane ride | 16:59 |
to Guantanamo, what that was like? | 17:01 | |
- | Basically, the day we were taken, | 17:03 |
we moved from our cells in the night | 17:08 | |
into a separate part of the camp in Qandahar. | 17:10 | |
And we were woken up in the morning | 17:13 | |
and told to sit at the back of our cells. | 17:16 | |
We all had numbers. | 17:19 | |
And they were calling out two by two the numbers | 17:20 | |
of all the people. | 17:22 | |
So my number would come up, | 17:24 | |
and we'd be taken to the front of the cell, | 17:26 | |
and made to lie down on the floor. | 17:29 | |
Two soldiers would come and basically sit on us | 17:30 | |
and search us and shackle us up | 17:34 | |
and drag us to the processing place. | 17:37 | |
They made us sit down on these wooden benches, | 17:41 | |
chained our hands to the wooden bench so we couldn't move, | 17:47 | |
shaved our heads, shaved our beards off, | 17:50 | |
cut all our clothes off of us, | 17:52 | |
and then we were marched naked out of the tent | 17:54 | |
in front of I don't know how many soldiers were there. | 17:59 | |
'Cause that was basically done to humiliate us, | 18:02 | |
there was no other reason that they did that, | 18:04 | |
into another tent, and there was a guy with a camera there. | 18:06 | |
And we were naked when they were taking the photos. | 18:13 | |
We don't know if they were taking head shots | 18:17 | |
or full body shots of us. | 18:18 | |
And we were given the orange uniform and told to put it on. | 18:20 | |
And we put the uniform on. | 18:26 | |
Then we were marched out to that tent outside, | 18:28 | |
and then they put these mitts on our hands | 18:32 | |
and taped them up. | 18:35 | |
And what else? | 18:37 | |
They put goggles over our eyes so we couldn't see anything. | 18:41 | |
And then they put these hats on our heads, | 18:45 | |
which was probably to keep us warm, | 18:48 | |
'cause it was freezing there. | 18:51 | |
And then they put these denim jackets over us | 18:52 | |
and made us sit down on the floor for a really long time. | 18:54 | |
Then it was at night time when we were actually taken, | 18:59 | |
by groups, because they did that same thing, | 19:06 | |
putting the rope around our arms | 19:08 | |
and marching us in groups of I think about 10. | 19:10 | |
Then we were put onto the plane with our ears covered, | 19:13 | |
our mouth covered, our eyes covered. | 19:19 | |
So we didn't know what was going on, and put on the plane. | 19:21 | |
And about, I think it must've been about an hour | 19:24 | |
we were on the plane, and then it took off. | 19:27 | |
And that first journey was horrendous | 19:30 | |
because we were sitting on these wooden planks | 19:34 | |
and it was impossible to sit on there | 19:36 | |
for more than five minutes. | 19:38 | |
And we couldn't move, | 19:40 | |
'cause we were chained to the floor. | 19:41 | |
And it was causing us a lot of pain, | 19:42 | |
because we'd lost a lot of weight at that time. | 19:44 | |
And it was impossible to sit in one position for that long. | 19:47 | |
And we had nothing to lean back on, | 19:51 | |
so I had to sit constantly in one position | 19:53 | |
and not be able to move. | 19:56 | |
And I was in a lot of pain. | 19:58 | |
And I was shouting, "I'm in pain, I'm in pain." | 20:01 | |
And somebody came, took the mask off me | 20:06 | |
and put something in my mouth, | 20:08 | |
maybe some kind of medicine? | 20:10 | |
I don't know what it was. | 20:13 | |
After that I just felt really, really drowsy. | 20:15 | |
And after nightfall, I went to sleep, | 20:18 | |
but I could still feel the pain in my body. | 20:23 | |
Then that journey must have lasted about, | 20:26 | |
it felt like it was forever, but it was, | 20:31 | |
we landed somewhere, | 20:33 | |
it must've been about 10, 12 hours later. | 20:34 | |
We were taken off the plane, searched. | 20:37 | |
And it seemed like they took us off the plane, | 20:42 | |
they might have put us onto a different plane, | 20:47 | |
or they brought us back onto the same plane, | 20:49 | |
and that must've took about two or three hours. | 20:53 | |
And then we were just waiting there, | 20:57 | |
and where we landed, it was really hot. | 21:01 | |
That's the only thing that I remember about that place, | 21:04 | |
'cause they kept our faces covered | 21:07 | |
so we couldn't see anything. | 21:09 | |
Then we were put back onto the second plane. | 21:11 | |
And that's the one that took us to Guantanamo. | 21:13 | |
Interviewer | Could you use the bathroom | 21:16 |
while you were on either plane? | 21:17 | |
Were you allowed to use the bathroom? | 21:18 | |
- | Yeah, I think we were. | 21:23 |
Interpreter | And did you notice when... | 21:25 |
Did that rope around your arm | 21:28 | |
ever cause any problems for you? | 21:30 | |
- | Not the rope around my arm, but the handcuffs did, | 21:33 |
'cause I didn't, for about six months | 21:37 | |
while I was in Guantanamo, | 21:39 | |
I didn't have no feeling in my left hand. | 21:40 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever report that? | 21:42 |
Shafiq | Yeah, I did. | 21:44 |
Interviewer | Did a doctor ever see that? | 21:45 |
- | No, not really. | 21:47 |
Interviewer | They never sent a doctor? | 21:49 |
- | But the shackles had cut my ankle open, | 21:50 |
and it wasn't healing properly. | 21:54 | |
But they used to come and put a bandage on that | 21:58 | |
and check that, but there was numerous occasions | 22:01 | |
that they took me in to get X-rayed, | 22:04 | |
and I used to ask 'em why they're doing it, | 22:07 | |
but they just gave me blank looks. | 22:09 | |
They'd never actually communicate with us | 22:11 | |
of why they're X-raying you | 22:13 | |
and why they're taking, they took about, when we got there, | 22:16 | |
they took about 12 bottles of blood out of us. | 22:22 | |
Interviewer | When you first arrived in Guantanamo? | 22:27 |
- | When we first arrived there. | 22:28 |
And why they did it, we don't know, | 22:29 | |
because they'd never answer our questions. | 22:31 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever see a doctor | 22:34 |
in Qandahar before you came to Guantanamo? | 22:36 | |
- | No. | 22:39 |
- | No? | |
Interviewer | So could you describe the first few weeks | 22:41 |
when you came to Guantanamo, what that was like, | 22:44 | |
and your first interrogation? | 22:46 | |
Do you remember that? | 22:48 | |
- | When we got there, it was just like, | 22:51 |
we were put into this cages, and it was just like, | 22:53 | |
it was just strange. | 22:57 | |
We didn't know where we were or what was going on. | 22:59 | |
All you'd see is someone in orange in these cells, | 23:01 | |
and there was like, there must've been about 60 cells | 23:03 | |
in our block, all full of people. | 23:08 | |
And we weren't allowed to talk to anybody. | 23:11 | |
We were allowed to look at anyone. | 23:13 | |
If we did look at someone, we were taken out | 23:14 | |
of our cells, and our cells were searched. | 23:16 | |
We'd be thrown onto the gravel on the floor. | 23:18 | |
And two soldiers would be sitting on us so we can't move | 23:21 | |
and they'd come and search our cells. | 23:24 | |
We weren't allowed to do anything. | 23:26 | |
We weren't allowed to stand up in our cells. | 23:28 | |
It just, it felt like hell, where we'd been brought. | 23:29 | |
And the first time I was interrogated was, | 23:34 | |
I think it was within 48 hours of arriving there. | 23:36 | |
And that was by the British. | 23:38 | |
Interviewer | Wait, the British interrogated you? | 23:42 |
- | Yeah, the first time. | 23:44 |
- | The British diplomat? | 23:45 |
- | MI5. | |
Interviewer | MI5? | 23:48 |
How do you know it was MI5? | 23:49 | |
- | They told us that they were MI5 officials. | 23:49 |
Interviewer | Were Americans with them | 23:52 |
when they interrogated? | 23:53 | |
- | There was... | |
Yeah, there was. | 23:56 | |
There was one guy sitting with the American uniform on | 23:57 | |
with them, there's one guy from the British embassy, | 24:01 | |
and there's, I think there might have been two guys | 24:04 | |
who were from MI5, and there's a lot | 24:06 | |
of people sitting behind me who I didn't get a look at, | 24:09 | |
but I think they were military as well. | 24:12 | |
Interviewer | So that was your first interrogation? | 24:15 |
- | Yeah. | 24:16 |
Interviewer | Could you describe what happened there? | 24:17 |
- | Basically, it went on for quite a while. | 24:19 |
They were asking me everything that happened. | 24:21 | |
I was explaining to them, and he was asking me | 24:23 | |
how we ended up in Afghanistan, | 24:28 | |
about the same questions that I've been asked before, | 24:29 | |
what had happened. | 24:32 | |
That was by the MI5, but the British embassy guy | 24:34 | |
who was asking me about my family, of my address, | 24:36 | |
phone numbers, people that I could contact | 24:39 | |
to confirm that I was British. | 24:41 | |
Then I answered all the questions MI5 asked me, | 24:45 | |
and he turned around and said, | 24:49 | |
"Everything that you've told me is a lie." | 24:51 | |
Interviewer | The diplomat said that? | 24:53 |
- | No, the MI5 guy. | 24:53 |
- | MI5. | |
- | And he says, "You better start telling me the truth, | 24:55 |
or you're gonna be spending the rest of your life here." | 24:59 | |
And that's when you start getting scared. | 25:03 | |
To hear it from Americans is a different thing. | 25:05 | |
But to hear it from your own countrypeople who were there, | 25:07 | |
who is supposed to be there to help you, | 25:10 | |
it just like starts sinking in | 25:12 | |
that I'm gonna be spending a long time here. | 25:15 | |
And I told him, "Everything I told you is the truth. | 25:17 | |
I've got, there's nothing else I can tell you." | 25:21 | |
And he said to me, "I'm gonna be here all day today. | 25:24 | |
If you decide to change your mind, just ask for me." | 25:26 | |
I said, "There's no point. | 25:32 | |
You might as well leave now, | 25:32 | |
'cause I ain't got nothing else to say to you, | 25:33 | |
'cause I've told you the truth." | 25:35 | |
And that was it. | 25:38 | |
That that was the first interrogation that I went to. | 25:40 | |
Interviewer | And did you ask them if they could tell you | 25:43 |
or if they could help you at all? | 25:46 | |
Did you say anything to them? | 25:47 | |
- | I asked him what was going on there. | 25:49 |
The reply that they used to give was, | 25:50 | |
every time they used to come in is, | 25:52 | |
"We don't know what's going on," | 25:54 | |
even though the soldiers used to tell us | 25:55 | |
that we've seen you on TV, | 25:59 | |
we've heard about you in the news. | 26:00 | |
And we'd ask the MI5 guys, | 26:03 | |
and he said, "We don't know nothing. | 26:05 | |
We've never seen you on TV. | 26:06 | |
We don't know even what's happening about your case." | 26:08 | |
Which is, you'd know they were blatantly lying. | 26:10 | |
But that's what they'd say to us every time. | 26:14 | |
Interviewer | Why would the Americans | 26:18 |
say they saw you on TV? | 26:19 | |
- | It was the soldiers that we, | 26:21 |
after a while, seeing the same soldiers, | 26:22 | |
you start getting on with them, some of them, | 26:24 | |
'cause they'd be walking the blocks | 26:26 | |
and find out that you speak English. | 26:29 | |
And I think, because we were British, | 26:31 | |
they've probably seen us on the news | 26:35 | |
and realized who we were. | 26:36 | |
- | Oh. | 26:37 |
- | 'Cause they used | |
to get a briefing about detainees | 26:39 | |
before they came to Guantanamo, | 26:40 | |
and they were specifically the Western detainees, | 26:43 | |
they used to get briefed on quite a lot. | 26:46 | |
Why, I don't know. | 26:49 | |
Before they even got to Guantanamo, | 26:51 | |
they knew who we were. | 26:53 | |
Interviewer | And so did the interrogation change | 26:55 |
over time, the next interrogation and the following one, | 26:58 | |
was it also with MI5, or with Americans? | 27:01 | |
So how did that develop? | 27:05 | |
- | Most of them were with different agencies, | 27:06 |
American agencies. | 27:09 | |
- | But not British? | |
- | And British, yeah, every six months they used | 27:12 |
to come to see us, or if something happened, | 27:14 | |
they'd fly over to specifically see people. | 27:16 | |
It wasn't just the British that they were interrogating. | 27:21 | |
They were interrogating a lot of people in Guantanamo. | 27:24 | |
- | They were at the time? | 27:27 |
- | Yeah. | |
Interviewer | How do you know that? | 27:29 |
- | Because we were told by detainees | 27:30 |
who had nothing to do with the UK | 27:31 | |
that were getting interrogated. | 27:35 | |
Most of the French were interrogated by the British as well. | 27:37 | |
Interviewer | And if you refused | 27:42 |
to give them the information they wanted, | 27:43 | |
or if you couldn't give them the information they wanted, | 27:45 | |
did they punish you at all for that? | 27:46 | |
- | We used to get punished all the time. | 27:50 |
We don't know what it came from. | 27:51 | |
It could have been from the British. | 27:52 | |
We were told not to give them this. | 27:54 | |
We used to get, | 27:56 | |
every time the British officials came, | 27:58 | |
they were given letters by our families, | 28:01 | |
from what my brother has told me since we've been back. | 28:04 | |
But we hardly ever received anything from them. | 28:07 | |
It's probably 'cause when they start the interrogation, | 28:11 | |
we couldn't give them the information they wanted. | 28:13 | |
And we used to be angry with them | 28:15 | |
that they're not doing anything, | 28:16 | |
and you refuse to cooperate. | 28:17 | |
Say, if you're not gonna help me | 28:19 | |
why should I help you in any way? | 28:20 | |
I think because of that, they refused to give us any news | 28:24 | |
about what's happening to our families here. | 28:27 | |
Interviewer | And how did they punish you otherwise? | 28:29 |
What happened? | 28:32 | |
- | They'd be put into solitary confinement, | 28:34 |
refused things that we're supposed to have in our cells, | 28:38 | |
they'd be taken away, and the only time we could have them | 28:42 | |
is if our interrogators allow us to have them. | 28:46 | |
Interviewer | Could you describe why they would put you | 28:50 |
in punishment block? | 28:53 | |
Was there any reasons for it or do you, | 28:54 | |
and what happened that caused it, | 28:56 | |
and how it was in the punishment block? | 28:58 | |
- | They'd put you in for minor reasons | 29:01 |
that they found something in your cell. | 29:04 | |
You save, like they'd find a spoon in your cell, | 29:06 | |
which it'd be impossible to keep something | 29:10 | |
like that in your cell anyway, | 29:13 | |
'cause they was constantly searching it. | 29:14 | |
They'd say, they'd come out with things that we haven't done | 29:16 | |
just to put us in isolation. | 29:20 | |
There's no win-win situation for us in Guantanamo. | 29:22 | |
We couldn't do anything. | 29:27 | |
That we say, "Oh, we didn't do this." | 29:29 | |
And they'd say, "Yeah, it's done, | 29:31 | |
that so and so soldier has wrote this in the book, | 29:32 | |
and so you must have done it. | 29:35 | |
What reason has he to lie?" | 29:36 | |
Interviewer | And why do you think they did that? | 29:40 |
- | Don't know. | 29:42 |
It wasn't just they used to do it to us. | 29:43 | |
They used to do to a lot of people there. | 29:45 | |
So you'd be constantly scared. | 29:46 | |
When your cell's getting searched, what's gonna happen? | 29:49 | |
Interviewer | And could you describe how it was | 29:53 |
in the punishment block? | 29:55 | |
What that was like? | 29:56 | |
- | It was solitary confinement, just a metal cell, | 29:58 |
which was... | 30:01 | |
During the day, it'd be really, really hot in there. | 30:02 | |
It'd be really hard to breathe. | 30:05 | |
And at night, 'cause they used to have AC in their cells, | 30:07 | |
they used to put the AC on at night, | 30:11 | |
although it'd be cold anyway, it'd be freezing with that on, | 30:12 | |
just to punish us, they'd do that. | 30:16 | |
And that used to end up making you really ill. | 30:18 | |
And the people that were already ill | 30:22 | |
and being in isolation would make them a lot worse. | 30:24 | |
Interviewer | How many times did you go to isolation? | 30:30 |
- | I think it was three different occasions. | 30:33 |
The last time I was taken there was for three months. | 30:36 | |
Interviewer | Do you know why? | 30:40 |
- | Yeah, basically, they said that they found a video | 30:41 |
of me and my other two friends in a place, | 30:45 | |
I forgot the name of it, in Afghanistan in 2000, | 30:51 | |
that we were at a rally with Osama bin Laden. | 30:58 | |
And that was the reason that they threw us into isolation. | 31:03 | |
And I told them, "If you contact the British, | 31:07 | |
they can confirm that we were in the UK. | 31:08 | |
I never left the country." | 31:10 | |
But all of that, it took three months for them to do. | 31:13 | |
So we spent three months in isolation for no reason. | 31:17 | |
They told the whole camp, the soldiers in the camp, | 31:21 | |
that we were hardcore Al-Qaeda terrorists, | 31:26 | |
'cause there was soldiers that used to come up to us | 31:29 | |
and say, "We've caught you. | 31:31 | |
You thought you got away with it, but we've caught you." | 31:33 | |
And after three months, a British came to see us | 31:36 | |
and told us that according to our records, | 31:39 | |
the video that was actually shown, | 31:44 | |
he said the date on there was the first | 31:45 | |
of the eighth, 2000. | 31:47 | |
They didn't know if that was 8th of January | 31:50 | |
or the 1st of August, but it didn't make any difference. | 31:53 | |
'Cause I was at university at that time. | 31:56 | |
And I was working. | 31:59 | |
And so I had a alibi for both dates. | 32:01 | |
And so did my two friends there, | 32:04 | |
'cause they were in full time work. | 32:05 | |
But they weren't prepared to listen to that. | 32:07 | |
And the British came and said, | 32:09 | |
"According to our records, they were in the UK. | 32:10 | |
But you're going to take into consideration | 32:14 | |
that they might've traveled on false passports." | 32:17 | |
This is what the British said to them. | 32:21 | |
So-- | 32:23 | |
- | How do you know that? | |
- | 'Cause our interrogator, | 32:25 |
it accidentally slipped out of his mouth | 32:26 | |
that that's what they said. | 32:27 | |
And well, then we were taken out of isolation. | 32:31 | |
Interviewer | Who were the other two when you say we? | 32:36 |
- | It's Asif Iqbal and Ruhal Ahmed. | 32:38 |
Interviewer | And were you close to them in the, | 32:42 |
could you talk to them while you were in isolation? | 32:44 | |
- | No, not in isolation, | 32:46 |
'cause we were kept separate from each other. | 32:48 | |
There was two blocks in isolation. | 32:49 | |
I think they were in one block | 32:51 | |
and I was put in a separate block. | 32:54 | |
Interviewer | So for three months you spoke | 32:56 |
to no one except the interrogator? | 32:57 | |
So could you speak to people? | 32:59 | |
- | You could speak to people in the solitary block, | 33:01 |
but it was like shouting to them, | 33:03 | |
and there's only a certain amount you can talk | 33:06 | |
while shouting. | 33:08 | |
Interviewer | And how did you manage that? | 33:10 |
How did you cope? | 33:12 | |
Was it hard, or-- | 33:13 | |
- | It was difficult, | |
because you're in that cell on your own. | 33:15 | |
You've got four metal walls to look at | 33:17 | |
and you just, it makes you go crazy in there. | 33:20 | |
Interviewer | What kept you from not going crazy? | 33:26 |
- | I don't know. | 33:27 |
I can't say what kept me, but it was just probably knowing | 33:29 | |
that I haven't done anything wrong. | 33:34 | |
And one day, if justice prevails, | 33:37 | |
I will be released from here. | 33:40 | |
That was the only thing. | 33:41 | |
The only thing we had in our cells was our Qurans, | 33:43 | |
and just like reading them constantly | 33:46 | |
just to keep your mind off what's going on around you. | 33:47 | |
That was the only thing that just kept us sane, really. | 33:51 | |
Interviewer | And when you were in your, | 33:56 |
you started in Camp X-Ray? | 33:59 | |
And how long were you at Camp X-Ray, | 34:01 | |
and were you moved to another camp? | 34:05 | |
- | We was in Camp X-Ray for about three months, | 34:06 |
then we were moved to Camp Delta after that. | 34:10 | |
Interviewer | And how was that compared to X-Ray? | 34:14 |
- | X-Ray? | 34:16 |
We had... | 34:20 | |
To go to the toilet, we had a bucket in our cells. | 34:22 | |
But you could communicate | 34:25 | |
with a lot more people in Camp X-Ray, | 34:27 | |
'cause you could see them clearly. | 34:29 | |
In Camp Delta, we had a sink and a toilet in our cells, | 34:31 | |
which made it better for us. | 34:34 | |
But there was limited amount | 34:36 | |
of people you could communicate with, | 34:37 | |
'cause the mesh was so small. | 34:39 | |
There's only a certain amount of people | 34:41 | |
that you could see until it starts going blurry. | 34:42 | |
And you can't really see the people | 34:46 | |
that you're talking to. | 34:47 | |
You can hear their voices, but you can't see them. | 34:49 | |
But at Camp X-Ray, it was like quite big mesh, | 34:51 | |
so you could see lot of people around you. | 34:53 | |
Interviewer | So is that how you communicated | 34:56 |
with people, pretty much by just yelling to them or-- | 34:58 | |
- | Yeah. | 35:02 |
The person next to you and the person next to him, | 35:03 | |
you could see clearly and you could talk to them, | 35:06 | |
but after that it's impossible to see them. | 35:08 | |
Interviewer | And how did you communicate with them? | 35:14 |
What languages did you use? | 35:16 | |
- | Well, when I was moved to Camp Delta, | 35:18 |
there was two British guys next to me. | 35:20 | |
So we used to speak English. | 35:22 | |
And I think there was a Pakistani guy in front of us, | 35:24 | |
so I speak to him in Urdu. | 35:27 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever see any people go | 35:33 |
on hunger strikes while you were there? | 35:35 | |
- | Yeah, numerous occasions. | 35:38 |
Interviewer | Could you describe the first one you saw | 35:39 |
and-- | 35:43 | |
- | It was in Camp X-Ray, | |
and I think he was Syrian national. | 35:45 | |
I can't remember his name, but he was on camp, | 35:47 | |
he was on a hunger strike as soon as he got there. | 35:50 | |
Yeah. | 35:53 | |
- | As soon as he got there? | |
Do you know why? | 35:54 | |
- | Because he, | 35:56 |
I think, because he didn't know why he was there | 35:59 | |
and no one was communicating with him, as I said. | 36:03 | |
He just made his mind up straight there and then, | 36:07 | |
if you're not going to tell me anything why I'm here, | 36:08 | |
that he just went on a hunger strike straightaway. | 36:11 | |
Interviewer | And what happened to him? | 36:13 |
Do you know? | 36:14 | |
- | Once we got moved to Camp Delta, everyone got separated. | 36:16 |
So I don't know what happened to him. | 36:19 | |
Interviewer | Did you see other people | 36:21 |
go on hunger strike at Camp X-Ray? | 36:22 | |
- | Yeah, in Camp Delta, a few. | 36:24 |
Interviewer | Did you ever? | 36:26 |
- | No. | 36:28 |
Interviewer | And did you ever see any people try | 36:28 |
to commit suicide? | 36:32 | |
- | I am. | |
I saw one Saudi national who was right, | 36:34 | |
in the cell right in front of me | 36:37 | |
that he tried to commit suicide. | 36:39 | |
- | Shall we take a break? | 36:43 |
- | Zack, Zack. | |
Sorry about that. | 36:51 | |
Interviewer | Are we on? | 37:00 |
Could you describe what you saw | 37:02 | |
when he tried to commit suicide? | 37:03 | |
- | Basically, we were praying at the time, | 37:07 |
when he tried to commit suicide. | 37:09 | |
He just got onto his sink in his cell, | 37:10 | |
and tied his sheet into the mesh | 37:14 | |
and just jumped off. | 37:18 | |
And I saw it straightaway what he was doing. | 37:20 | |
And I started shouting at the soldiers. | 37:23 | |
They came within seconds and took him down. | 37:26 | |
But that was happening a lot there. | 37:30 | |
Interviewer | You saw that a lot? | 37:34 |
- | Yeah. | 37:36 |
Interviewer | And did you, | 37:37 |
what did the other prisoners do? | 37:38 | |
Did they-- | 37:41 | |
- | Everyone, so as soon as it happened, | 37:42 |
they started shouting for the soldiers | 37:43 | |
and they'd come running and take him down. | 37:45 | |
Interviewer | And where were they taken away then, | 37:46 |
the people who committed suicide? | 37:48 | |
- | They were taken into the medical block. | 37:50 |
They'd keep them there for a few days, | 37:53 | |
then bring them back. | 37:54 | |
Interviewer | Were you ever, did you ever see doctors? | 37:57 |
Did you ever get taken to the medical block? | 38:00 | |
- | Yeah, on a few occasions, yeah. | 38:02 |
Interviewer | Could you describe what that was like? | 38:04 |
- | It was strange, | 38:09 |
'cause they take you into the medical block | 38:10 | |
and take blood from you, check you over, | 38:13 | |
but they'd not communicate with you. | 38:18 | |
Interviewer | They wouldn't talk? | 38:21 |
- | No, they wouldn't look at you or talk to you. | 38:22 |
If you asked them any questions, | 38:24 | |
they were just like, "Nobody's spoken, | 38:25 | |
nobody heard anything." | 38:28 | |
Interviewer | And did you, | 38:31 |
why did they take you to the medical block? | 38:31 | |
- | I don't know, no idea. | 38:33 |
I was taken... one occasion, | 38:35 | |
I was complaining about pains in my knees, | 38:37 | |
and they took me out there to get that checked. | 38:40 | |
But there was, I was taken about six or seven times | 38:44 | |
to have my chest X-rayed, but they never told me why. | 38:49 | |
I was taken out of the camp once | 38:52 | |
to have a scan done, a full body scan, | 38:54 | |
for I don't know where they took me, | 38:57 | |
'cause they put me in the back of those-- | 38:59 | |
- | A vehicle? | 39:03 |
- | A vehicle | |
and took me somewhere. | 39:05 | |
And I had a scan done and they brought me back, | 39:07 | |
and then they never told me why they did it. | 39:10 | |
Interviewer | Do you know other people | 39:14 |
who had to see doctors | 39:16 | |
and do you know, what their experiences were like? | 39:19 | |
- | I think there was like, Omar, the Canadian, | 39:22 |
'cause he'd been shot, he was in a lot of pain. | 39:27 | |
And he used to be taken to medical. | 39:30 | |
But he was in that situation | 39:34 | |
where his interrogators had said, | 39:36 | |
"If he doesn't give us information, | 39:39 | |
we're not going to give him any medical treatment." | 39:43 | |
So he'd be taken to medical, | 39:46 | |
but I don't think they used to do anything. | 39:48 | |
They would just make a log of what's wrong with him, | 39:50 | |
if he's getting worse or anything. | 39:53 | |
But they'd refuse to give him any medical treatment, | 39:55 | |
because his interrogators said not to give him any. | 39:57 | |
Interviewer | Did he tell you this? | 40:04 |
- | Yeah, this is what he told us. | 40:05 |
Interviewer | That they weren't going to treat him | 40:07 |
unless he told them-- | 40:08 | |
- | This is what his interrogator was saying to us. | 40:10 |
"Communicate with us, give us information that we need, | 40:12 | |
then we will give you whatever you need." | 40:16 | |
Interviewer | And how old was Omar at the time? | 40:19 |
- | I think he was about, | 40:22 |
I think he was about 15, 16 at the time. | 40:23 | |
Interviewer | Did he tell you anything else | 40:27 |
about how he was treated? | 40:29 | |
- | Being taken to interrogation at ridiculous times | 40:32 |
in the middle of the night, woken up and taken there, | 40:36 | |
put in interrogation rooms when nobody's there to see him, | 40:39 | |
just sitting there for hours and hours | 40:43 | |
and then being brought back. | 40:44 | |
Interviewer | Did that ever happen to you? | 40:47 |
- | Yeah, that happened to us. | 40:48 |
And all that I was telling you before | 40:48 | |
about the incident, about the video | 40:52 | |
of us being in Afghanistan, | 40:54 | |
that's what they used to do to us. | 40:56 | |
They're basically short shackle us to the floor, | 40:57 | |
our hands between our ankles, | 41:00 | |
so we were in like a squatting position, | 41:03 | |
and leave us there for hours. | 41:05 | |
Interviewer | Without food or water? | 41:08 |
- | Yeah, without food or water. | 41:09 |
And on some occasions, they'd be playing really loud music | 41:10 | |
and which is deafening, | 41:14 | |
and just leave it in the room for hours. | 41:16 | |
Interviewer | And what would happen then? | 41:20 |
- | We were put in the room for hours. | 41:22 |
Then somebody come, unshackle us, | 41:24 | |
and take us back to our cells. | 41:28 | |
And you'd be thinking, what the hell just happened? | 41:29 | |
'Cause there's no light in that room. | 41:32 | |
You don't realize how long you've been in there for. | 41:36 | |
Interviewer | And would that happen again the next day or? | 41:39 |
- | Not next day, after a few days it happened again. | 41:42 |
It happened a few times. | 41:45 | |
And then, first they started by just putting us on a chair | 41:46 | |
and just leaving us in the room, | 41:51 | |
and just for hours and hours, | 41:54 | |
just sitting there thinking that somebody's coming | 41:55 | |
and you're just waiting for them, | 41:57 | |
waiting and waiting and waiting. | 41:59 | |
Then you were taken back, put back into your cell. | 42:01 | |
Then after that, they started short shackling us. | 42:04 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever see, besides Omar, | 42:08 |
other people who were mistreated at Guantanamo? | 42:11 | |
- | There was a lot of Arabs who were in the same situation. | 42:16 |
They'd be taken. | 42:19 | |
This one guy, he every, I think it was 15 minutes | 42:20 | |
throughout the day, he'd be moved from one cell to another, | 42:28 | |
one cell to another, and he'd never get any sleep. | 42:32 | |
And they were doing that for weeks and weeks to him. | 42:37 | |
Interviewer | How do you know that? | 42:40 |
- | Because one of the cells that they used to move him | 42:42 |
to all the time was right opposite where we were. | 42:44 | |
You'd see him a couple of hours, | 42:47 | |
he'd be taken from that cell, moved around constantly, | 42:51 | |
and come back and say, "What's happened?" | 42:53 | |
He'd say, "Oh, every 15 minutes they moved me | 42:55 | |
from this cell to that cell, from this cell to that cell." | 42:58 | |
Interviewer | Did he know why they were doing that? | 43:01 |
- | No, 'cause then he'd be taken to interrogation. | 43:03 |
They would be asking him those same questions over, | 43:06 | |
and he'd say, "I can't give you the answers | 43:08 | |
because I don't want what's going on." | 43:10 | |
Then they'd carry on during it to him. | 43:11 | |
And there's a few people that that was happening to. | 43:12 | |
Interviewer | You saw that happen to other people? | 43:17 |
- | Yeah. | 43:18 |
Interviewer | Did you see any people earthed, | 43:19 |
where the force came in to-- | 43:23 | |
- | Yeah, I've seen that on numerous occasions. | 43:25 |
Interviewer | Could you describe? | 43:27 |
- | There was one Saudi in Camp X-Ray. | 43:28 |
His name was Juma. | 43:30 | |
He's been released now. | 43:32 | |
He was, | 43:34 | |
they said that he was not mentally stable, | 43:37 | |
'cause there was psych doctors | 43:39 | |
that used to come and see him. | 43:42 | |
And he used to shout all the time. | 43:45 | |
And he was shouting at a female soldier once, | 43:49 | |
and the block sergeant called the earth team | 43:51 | |
to basically take him out in his cell. | 43:58 | |
And what happens, | 44:01 | |
if you're standing up in your cell, | 44:02 | |
they'll come in and push you to the floor and shackle you. | 44:03 | |
But the procedure is, if you don't want that to happen, | 44:06 | |
you lie down on the floor, | 44:09 | |
put your hands like that behind your head, | 44:11 | |
and they won't do anything to you. | 44:13 | |
And-- | 44:16 | |
(beeping) | ||
Interviewer | Shall we take a break, | 44:21 |
and wait for that? | 44:22 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | I don't know what the-- | 44:24 |
Woman | Okay, back. | 44:26 |
Interviewer | So he was a little crazy? | 44:27 |
They thought he was? | 44:29 | |
- | Yeah. | 44:31 |
- | So you'd, | |
so if you lied down-- | 44:35 | |
- | If you lie, | |
but it's a procedure. | 44:37 | |
If you lie down and put your hands behind your head, | 44:38 | |
they'll walk into your cell, | 44:40 | |
shackle you up and take you away. | 44:41 | |
Then after a few hours bring you back. | 44:45 | |
I think they used to take him to interrogation | 44:47 | |
and then bring them back. | 44:50 | |
But when this happened, he was already lying on the floor | 44:51 | |
with his hands behind his head. | 44:54 | |
But on the earth team, there's usually five guys. | 44:56 | |
On this one, I think there was about eight of them. | 45:00 | |
(beeping) | 45:02 | |
- | It's the, it's the-- | 45:07 |
- | It hasn't gone off. | |
It's gonna go off again. | 45:10 | |
- | It's gonna go off again? | |
- | Yeah, he's got the keys, sorry about that. | 45:19 |
- | It's all right. | 45:22 |
- | We're back on. | |
Interviewer | So in this case, | 45:25 |
you said eight people-- | 45:26 | |
- | Yeah, there was eight people on the earth team | 45:27 |
that came to earth him. | 45:29 | |
And the first guy, soon as they opened his cell, | 45:31 | |
ran in, and with his knees just dropped onto his back. | 45:34 | |
And this guy was about 6'4", | 45:39 | |
and he must've been about 250 pound. | 45:43 | |
And all I heard from Juma was just let out a scream | 45:47 | |
and the whole of our block just went quiet, | 45:52 | |
because we thought, that guy has killed him. | 45:55 | |
The way he's just dropped on the ground, | 45:58 | |
don't forget, they've got the knee pads on as well. | 45:59 | |
You know those, when you have the riot gear, | 46:03 | |
you have those pads to protect your legs? | 46:04 | |
That's what he was wearing when he did the drop on him. | 46:06 | |
And then the next ones that went in, | 46:09 | |
was holding him down, punching him, | 46:12 | |
and the sergeant who was in charge that day told the female, | 46:15 | |
"You're gonna go in that cell and what are you gonna do?" | 46:20 | |
And she's like, you could see she was a bit afraid | 46:24 | |
of what's going on in there. | 46:27 | |
And he shouted at her, "You're gonna go in that cell | 46:28 | |
and you're going to kick him in the stomach." | 46:30 | |
And what we didn't know at the time, | 46:33 | |
Juma, he used to be a really big guy, | 46:35 | |
and he had his stomach stapled. | 46:38 | |
So he's got some metal rods in his stomach. | 46:41 | |
So she was kicking him in the stomach and he was screaming. | 46:43 | |
Then about five minutes later, | 46:47 | |
they picked him up and took him, and also his face. | 46:49 | |
It was just covered in blood. | 46:54 | |
And we thought, what was going on? | 46:55 | |
This was being filmed as well on a camcorder at the time. | 46:59 | |
And there's Asif, a British guy, there's Abbas and me. | 47:03 | |
We were shouting at the guy, saying, | 47:07 | |
"What's going on? | 47:10 | |
What you're doing? | 47:11 | |
Why are you filming this way, to help him? | 47:11 | |
Where's our human rights? | 47:15 | |
Yeah, you're treating him like an animal." | 47:16 | |
And the guy, instead of filming Juma, | 47:18 | |
he brings it and starts filming us shouting at him. | 47:20 | |
Then he was taken out of his cell | 47:24 | |
and moved to a different place. | 47:27 | |
And that was about three days | 47:29 | |
before we got moved to Camp Delta. | 47:31 | |
And the day we got moved to Camp Delta, | 47:36 | |
the Red Cross came into our blocks | 47:38 | |
and we told them what had happened. | 47:40 | |
And they said, "Okay, we'll go and find out." | 47:42 | |
They came back a day later and said when the earth team came | 47:46 | |
into his cell, he was provoking them. | 47:50 | |
And that's why they beat him up. | 47:52 | |
And we knew that this had not happened, | 47:54 | |
and it had been filmed as well. | 47:56 | |
And we told him that this had been filmed. | 47:58 | |
And they said, "No, this is what I've been told, | 47:59 | |
and this is what we have to go by." | 48:02 | |
That's why a lot of the Red Cross, in the beginning, | 48:04 | |
were not trusted by anybody. | 48:08 | |
Interviewer | Do you remember, | 48:12 |
you said this is a few days before you moved to Camp Delta. | 48:13 | |
So was that in April or in May of 2002, | 48:16 | |
or do you know when you were moved? | 48:19 | |
- | I think we were moved on the 1st of May. | 48:21 |
Interviewer | So it was late April that this happened? | 48:24 |
- | Yeah, yeah. | 48:27 |
Interviewer | And did you ever hear about him again? | 48:27 |
- | In Camp Delta, where we were moved, | 48:29 |
I was in cell number two. | 48:35 | |
Asif, the other British guy, he was in cell number three. | 48:37 | |
Cell number four was empty. | 48:40 | |
And about four days later, | 48:42 | |
that guy was moved into cell number four. | 48:44 | |
And he still had the same clothes on, | 48:46 | |
he still had the bruise on his face, | 48:48 | |
and his clothes were covered in blood. | 48:50 | |
And the sergeant who was filming it came onto our block | 48:53 | |
and Juma said to him, "Can I have a change of clothes, | 48:58 | |
'cause my clothes are covered in blood, | 49:01 | |
and I want to change them." | 49:03 | |
And just because he said that, | 49:07 | |
he was taken out of his cell | 49:08 | |
and put into solitary confinement for a week. | 49:09 | |
And we thought, what's going on? | 49:13 | |
Why are they treating him like that for? | 49:14 | |
Interviewer | And was he put in a mental block too, | 49:18 |
do you know? | 49:20 | |
- | There was a block, Delta, I think, which was later built. | 49:22 |
And I think he spent some time in there. | 49:27 | |
Interviewer | And when he was brought back, | 49:31 |
he was still near you, so you could still see how he-- | 49:32 | |
- | Yeah. | 49:36 |
- | Did he get earthed again? | |
Did you see any? | 49:37 | |
- | Not that I can remember, | 49:39 |
but when we got released in March two-- | 49:41 | |
- | 2000? | 49:47 |
- | March 2004. | |
He was in the isolation block that we were in. | 49:49 | |
In his block, he didn't have a sink or a bunk to sleep on. | 49:54 | |
So they said that he could self harm himself on the sink. | 49:58 | |
So in his cell, he didn't have a sink. | 50:03 | |
Interviewer | Could we talk a little about the Red Cross? | 50:08 |
How it was at the beginning with the Red Cross | 50:11 | |
and how that changed? | 50:14 | |
- | Well, in the beginning, in Camp X-Ray | 50:17 |
they were very helpful towards us. | 50:18 | |
They were the ones that actually told us | 50:22 | |
that we were in Cuba, in Guantanamo. | 50:25 | |
And they drew maps for us and told us exactly where we was. | 50:29 | |
And a little bit of history about it as well. | 50:33 | |
And they were really helpful towards us, | 50:36 | |
because in the beginning we weren't allowed to pray. | 50:39 | |
We weren't allowed to stand up in our cells, | 50:40 | |
but once they came, they brought Qurans for us. | 50:42 | |
And we were allowed to pray after that in our cells. | 50:45 | |
Interviewer | How much after you arrived did they come? | 50:49 |
- | I think it was about two weeks after. | 50:52 |
And they were very helpful. | 50:55 | |
But then they left, and after that we were moved | 50:58 | |
to Camp Delta, and a group came then. | 51:02 | |
And that group, it didn't seem like they were there | 51:06 | |
for our welfare. | 51:11 | |
It seemed like they were there to help the military | 51:13 | |
to get information out of us, | 51:16 | |
because there's a lot of, | 51:17 | |
I was taken on one occasion to interrogation | 51:18 | |
and they were asking, not about my welfare, | 51:21 | |
but about other people around me in my block. | 51:24 | |
And it seemed strange. | 51:27 | |
And I asked him, I said, "What, | 51:28 | |
why are you asking me these questions?" | 51:30 | |
That their reply to that was they just want | 51:31 | |
to get background information. | 51:34 | |
But it seemed like we were being interrogated by them, | 51:36 | |
and it happened to a lot of people. | 51:39 | |
And that's when a lot of us lost confidence in Red Cross | 51:41 | |
and stopped speaking to them altogether. | 51:46 | |
And that was for about a year and a half | 51:48 | |
that nobody really communicated with the Red Cross. | 51:51 | |
And after that, there was a group that came, | 51:53 | |
and they were very apologetic for the previous groups | 51:56 | |
and what they'd done. | 51:59 | |
And slowly, slowly, people started trusting them | 52:01 | |
and started talking to them again. | 52:04 | |
Interviewer | And was the American military ever | 52:06 |
with the Red Cross when they interrogated you | 52:10 | |
about other people or was it just the Red Cross-- | 52:12 | |
- | Just the Red Cross on their own. | 52:15 |
Interviewer | And did they ever explain to you | 52:17 |
why they would be asking you about other people? | 52:20 | |
- | They'd just say that they want | 52:22 |
to get background information on them, | 52:24 | |
but they would be asking a lot of questions | 52:25 | |
about how did they end up in Afghanistan, | 52:26 | |
what's their background, or who do they know? | 52:29 | |
Did you ever meet them while you were in the UK? | 52:33 | |
Did you ever meet them in Afghanistan? | 52:36 | |
And you'd just be sitting there thinking, hang on. | 52:39 | |
I'm being interrogated. | 52:42 | |
Are you Red Cross or are you military? | 52:43 | |
Interviewer | When you said that a lot of people | 52:46 |
then wouldn't talk to the Red Cross, | 52:49 | |
how did that happen? | 52:50 | |
Was there some conversation among the people there | 52:52 | |
in Guantanamo saying, we're all gonna refuse? | 52:56 | |
Was there-- | 52:58 | |
- | No, I think the word got round that people were saying, | 52:59 |
"Yeah, I was taken to interrogation | 53:03 | |
and they were asking me a lot of questions." | 53:05 | |
And then other persons say, | 53:06 | |
"Yeah, the same thing happened to me." | 53:07 | |
And I think it started spreading that this was happening | 53:10 | |
to a lot of people. | 53:12 | |
And I think it was just like individual's decision | 53:13 | |
to stop talking to the people. | 53:16 | |
They didn't, they weren't there for their welfare. | 53:18 | |
So they stopped talking to them. | 53:20 | |
Interviewer | Did you see other ways that individuals | 53:22 |
resisted the military or resisted the officers | 53:24 | |
at Guantanamo? | 53:29 | |
Did you see other ways of resistance? | 53:30 | |
- | Resistance in-- | 53:34 |
- | Well, in different ways, | |
like refusing to talk to them | 53:36 | |
or refusing to eat or-- | 53:37 | |
- | Refusing to eat, refusing to come out of their cells | 53:39 |
when they were, when we had to go out for showers. | 53:42 | |
Interviewer | And what would happen if they refused | 53:46 |
to come out? | 53:48 | |
- | The earth team would come in | 53:49 |
and force them out of their cells. | 53:49 | |
There's one occasion where they decided | 53:52 | |
that nobody's allowed to have a Quran. | 53:54 | |
And we didn't want to give them back. | 53:56 | |
And nearly the whole camp was earthed, | 53:59 | |
just to have the Qurans taken out of their cells. | 54:03 | |
Interviewer | Do you know when that was? | 54:06 |
- | I think it might be around the beginning of 2003. | 54:10 |
Interviewer | And do you know why they wanted | 54:16 |
to take away the-- | 54:17 | |
- | No idea why they took 'em. | |
But the funny thing was, | 54:20 | |
a few weeks later, they wanted to put 'em back in. | 54:21 | |
And because what had happened when they took 'em out, | 54:24 | |
people refused to have 'em put back in their cells, | 54:28 | |
and the same thing happened. | 54:31 | |
They were earthed to have the Quran put back in the cell. | 54:33 | |
Interviewer | Were you earthed then too, | 54:37 |
or did you, you didn't-- | 54:38 | |
- | No, we wasn't earthed, | 54:40 |
because the cells that, | 54:42 | |
I think they didn't have no Qurans in there at all, | 54:43 | |
but the block that we were moved to, | 54:46 | |
and I think they got to a stage | 54:49 | |
when they started earthing people, | 54:51 | |
to put Qurans in their cell, | 54:53 | |
they started taking them to interrogation, | 54:54 | |
and pretend that they'd been interrogated | 54:56 | |
and put a Quran in the cell, | 54:58 | |
instead of having them earthed. | 55:00 | |
Interviewer | Did you think | 55:03 |
that because you spoke English, | 55:04 | |
you had an advantage at Guantanamo? | 55:05 | |
- | Yeah, we did have an advantage | 55:08 |
'cause we spoke English, but it was very small. | 55:10 | |
Interviewer | What advantage? | 55:13 |
- | We could communicate with the soldiers. | 55:14 |
There was a very small minority of them | 55:17 | |
that would sympathize with what was happening. | 55:19 | |
There was one guy at the very first that actually, | 55:22 | |
he was in Camp X-Ray, and he said to me, | 55:28 | |
"What's happening to you is bad. | 55:32 | |
What happened in America is bad as well. | 55:35 | |
But two wrongs don't make a right. | 55:38 | |
And there's nothing I can do to help you here, | 55:41 | |
but just to let you know that there's some people | 55:44 | |
that sympathize with what's happening to you." | 55:47 | |
And there was one guy in Camp Delta, | 55:50 | |
he said to me that, "I'm really sorry | 55:51 | |
for what's happening to you, but there's nothing I can do. | 55:54 | |
If I do anything, I'll end up in the cell next to you. | 55:58 | |
But I apologize for what my country has done to you. | 56:01 | |
But I'm a soldier here and I have to follow rules." | 56:04 | |
Interviewer | So some of the guards were nice to you? | 56:09 |
- | There's people that, when you were on the earth team, | 56:11 |
you didn't have a choice to go on there. | 56:14 | |
And every time that someone got earthed, it was filmed. | 56:19 | |
So I think they were made to be aggressive. | 56:22 | |
If they weren't, they'd probably get punished for them. | 56:26 | |
And there's some people that were on the earth team, | 56:28 | |
after they had earthed someone, | 56:30 | |
they'd come back and apologize to them. | 56:32 | |
- | Really? | 56:34 |
- | Yeah. | |
Though thought that was a very, very small minority of them. | 56:36 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever see guards give extra food to-- | 56:39 |
- | Oh yeah. | 56:42 |
We used to get extra food out of the guards. | 56:43 | |
They used to go into their chow hall and get food | 56:46 | |
that we weren't allowed and bring it in for us. | 56:50 | |
Interviewer | And hope nobody sees it? | 56:53 |
- | Yeah, 'cause if they saw it, | 56:55 |
they'd be in serious trouble. | 56:57 | |
Girl | Can I just ask one question about the cameras | 56:59 |
and taking pictures? | 57:01 | |
How much of it do you think was official military, | 57:02 | |
that was someone's job and it was being archived, | 57:05 | |
and how much of it do you think were snapshots, | 57:07 | |
like trophy shots, just soldiers with cameras? | 57:09 | |
- | I don't think it was trophy shots, | 57:12 |
'cause the guy who would come in with a camera, | 57:13 | |
you'd never see him before, | 57:16 | |
and they'd be like, they wouldn't be block soldiers. | 57:17 | |
They'd be like officers that would come in. | 57:22 | |
So I think they might are keeping them for their records, | 57:26 | |
but the other thing is, when we asked to see the film | 57:33 | |
from the Red Cross of what happened to Juma, | 57:38 | |
it strangely had gone missing, | 57:40 | |
that it never existed as well. | 57:42 | |
So what the reason, | 57:45 | |
we don't know why they were filming it then. | 57:47 | |
Interviewer | Were you ever asked to spy | 57:51 |
for the Americans, since you spoke English? | 57:54 | |
Did they ever ask you to do anything like that for them? | 57:56 | |
- | They'd ask us to get information of people | 58:01 |
that were next to us in our cells. | 58:04 | |
Interviewer | How did they ask that, | 58:07 |
and what did they say they would give you as a-- | 58:08 | |
- | They'd make it like, they'd take you to interrogation | 58:10 |
and be all nice with you and say, | 58:11 | |
"Oh, which cell are you in?" | 58:13 | |
Although they'd know, and say, "Oh." | 58:16 | |
Then they'd start looking through their papers. | 58:18 | |
"Oh, you're next to so and so person. | 58:19 | |
Does he ever speak to you?" | 58:23 | |
"Uh, yeah, occasionally. | 58:24 | |
What does he speak about? | 58:26 | |
Do you know anything about his family?" | 58:29 | |
Then they start slightly building up. | 58:31 | |
"All right, do you know any information? | 58:32 | |
How come he ended up in Guantanamo?" | 58:34 | |
And they say, "Oh, it'd be helpful, | 58:36 | |
'cause he's not speaking to us, | 58:38 | |
if you could give us any information about him." | 58:40 | |
It'd start off like that. | 58:43 | |
And there's, okay, before we got released, | 58:44 | |
they were saying that if we worked for them, | 58:46 | |
we'll get released within a week, | 58:50 | |
although we knew that we were gonna be out of Guantanamo | 58:52 | |
within seven days, that they'd play you against each other. | 58:54 | |
Interviewer | So you think because you spoke English, | 59:01 |
then the interrogators tried to use you. | 59:03 | |
Is that what you would say? | 59:06 | |
- | Yeah. | |
Interviewer | And then the guards felt more comfortable | 59:08 |
talking to you because you understood English then too? | 59:10 | |
The guards? | 59:13 | |
- | Some of them, yeah. | |
Some of them didn't feel comfortable | 59:16 | |
because we spoke English. | 59:18 | |
Interviewer | And they deliberately didn't want you | 59:21 |
to hear their conversation. | 59:23 | |
Did you-- | 59:24 | |
- | Yeah. | |
And you feel that. | 59:26 | |
And you just, it depended where they were from, | 59:27 | |
which group they were from. | 59:29 | |
'Cause those groups, the main one | 59:32 | |
that we used to get on with, they were from South Carolina. | 59:36 | |
And most of them we could communicate with | 59:41 | |
and they weren't harsh towards us. | 59:44 | |
But there was one group from Massachusetts. | 59:48 | |
Their job was to make our life hell. | 59:53 | |
Interviewer | How so? | 59:57 |
- | 'Cause every time they'd come on the block, | 59:59 |
they'd cause a problem and just make everyone angry | 1:00:01 | |
and turn off the water, every day they used to come | 1:00:05 | |
on the block, so they don't have to give us any food. | 1:00:07 | |
They don't have to do anything. | 1:00:10 | |
All they can do is just sit outside | 1:00:11 | |
and carry on doing what they want. | 1:00:13 | |
Interviewer | How would they make a problem? | 1:00:15 |
- | They'd go into someone's cell, | 1:00:17 |
and throw the Quran on the floor. | 1:00:20 | |
Everyone on the block's gonna get angry. | 1:00:22 | |
They start banging in their cells, | 1:00:24 | |
and there'd be lockdown in the camp. | 1:00:27 | |
Now nothing can happen. | 1:00:30 | |
No one can go to interrogation, | 1:00:31 | |
no one could come out of their cells, nothing can happen. | 1:00:32 | |
So that would make their life easy. | 1:00:35 | |
And if they did take us out of our cells, | 1:00:37 | |
they used to manhandle us all badly. | 1:00:39 | |
They'd just grab us, chuck us on the floor, | 1:00:41 | |
grab our heads and just, the mesh, push it against the mesh | 1:00:44 | |
and just hold us there. | 1:00:48 | |
And we used to, every time we used to see that group, | 1:00:49 | |
we used to just dread anything happening, | 1:00:52 | |
'cause we knew it was gonna be hell for the 12 hours | 1:00:56 | |
that they were gonna be there. | 1:00:59 | |
They're gonna just make hell for us. | 1:01:00 | |
Interviewer | And when was that? | 1:01:02 |
They were there, I think around, | 1:01:04 | |
I think end of 2002, beginning of 2003, | 1:01:13 | |
for about six or seven months. | 1:01:16 | |
It was around the time when Miller, | 1:01:18 | |
Geoffrey Miller came to Guantanamo. | 1:01:21 | |
Interviewer | You saw him or had you not? | 1:01:24 |
- | Yeah. | 1:01:26 |
- | You saw him? | |
- | I've seen him on about four different occasions. | 1:01:27 |
Interviewer | Why, how did that happen? | 1:01:29 |
- | From what we found out, he, the rules of the camp, | 1:01:32 |
when he came to Guantanamo, he changed everything | 1:01:35 | |
and just made it a lot worse for us. | 1:01:37 | |
He brought in this level thing in the cell, | 1:01:39 | |
what you are allowed to have in your cell, | 1:01:44 | |
if you were allowed to come out of your cell | 1:01:46 | |
and go for showers, | 1:01:47 | |
the level one, two, three, and four, | 1:01:49 | |
he brought that in. | 1:01:51 | |
And that was all governed by the interrogation. | 1:01:52 | |
If you weren't communicating with the interrogators, | 1:01:55 | |
that would be what level you were, | 1:01:58 | |
and taking people for stupid reasons to isolation | 1:02:01 | |
and leaving them there for weeks, | 1:02:06 | |
'cause the maximum, before he came, | 1:02:11 | |
the maximum that they would keep you | 1:02:13 | |
in isolation was three days. | 1:02:15 | |
And after he came, it was just people there for months | 1:02:17 | |
and years, they've just been there in isolation, | 1:02:20 | |
since they've been in Guantanamo, they've been in isolation. | 1:02:23 | |
They haven't seen the outside or open camp. | 1:02:26 | |
Interviewer | And how did you know he made the difference? | 1:02:30 |
How did you-- | 1:02:32 | |
- | The soldiers were telling us. | 1:02:33 |
Interviewer | The soldiers would tell? | 1:02:34 |
- | Yeah. | 1:02:36 |
Saying that since he's come, | 1:02:37 | |
he's the one who's changed everything. | 1:02:38 | |
Interviewer | And how did you see him? | 1:02:40 |
- | He used to come on the blocks on occasion. | 1:02:42 |
There'd be officials in civilian clothing. | 1:02:46 | |
They'd be walking the blocks, | 1:02:48 | |
and I don't know who they were. | 1:02:49 | |
I don't know if they were interrogators or who. | 1:02:51 | |
But he'd be walking the blocks with them. | 1:02:54 | |
Interviewer | And you would know him as-- | 1:02:55 |
- | Yeah, 'cause he used to have, | 1:02:57 |
I think it was a one star general, I'm not sure. | 1:03:00 | |
I can't remember. | 1:03:01 | |
He used to have his star on the side of his name tag. | 1:03:03 | |
Interviewer | He had his nametag? | 1:03:05 |
Most guards did not have their name. | 1:03:06 | |
- | No, they still have their name tags, | 1:03:09 |
but they used to have black tape over it. | 1:03:10 | |
Interviewer | Right. | 1:03:12 |
Did they ever tell you why they covered their names? | 1:03:13 | |
- | They were told to do it. | 1:03:14 |
And one said that if we ever get released, | 1:03:16 | |
we'll track 'em down in America and come and kill 'em. | 1:03:19 | |
That's why they cover their names. | 1:03:22 | |
Interviewer | Did they believe that? | 1:03:23 |
- | I think a lot of them did. | 1:03:25 |
Interviewer | Did they ever ask you about that, | 1:03:26 |
if that was true? | 1:03:28 | |
- | It depended who the soldiers were, | 1:03:31 |
'cause you'd think, if he's scared, just play along with it. | 1:03:34 | |
Yeah, 'cause you're in a situation | 1:03:39 | |
where you can't do nothing. | 1:03:40 | |
You're never gonna see these guys again. | 1:03:42 | |
The chances of us ever coming to America | 1:03:44 | |
is very, very, very low. | 1:03:47 | |
Well, we're never gonna see him. | 1:03:50 | |
But I don't know if I would ever recognize 'em | 1:03:51 | |
if I did see 'em, but then you'd say, | 1:03:53 | |
you'd say things like, | 1:03:57 | |
"Oh, what would you do if you was in my situation?" | 1:03:58 | |
Yeah, "If I saw you outside, what would you do?" | 1:04:01 | |
And they'd say "Oh, that's true." | 1:04:04 | |
But the chances of us ever doing anything was very remote. | 1:04:07 | |
Interviewer | But you got the feeling | 1:04:11 |
that some guards were afraid of you, | 1:04:12 | |
afraid of the detainees? | 1:04:14 | |
- | They were, because when they'd come | 1:04:16 |
to take you out of your cell, they'd be shaking. | 1:04:18 | |
They'd be shaking so much that it'd make you nervous, | 1:04:21 | |
and you'd end up shaking as well. | 1:04:26 | |
You're thinking, why is this guy shaking? | 1:04:29 | |
I was shackled. | 1:04:30 | |
My feet and my hands are shackled together, | 1:04:31 | |
my fear are shackled together. | 1:04:32 | |
I'm not going to do anything. | 1:04:34 | |
But you feel that they are really scared, | 1:04:35 | |
because they were, I think the average age was about 23. | 1:04:40 | |
And when we were in Camp X-Ray, I think it was lower, | 1:04:46 | |
because they were really young, | 1:04:50 | |
there were like 17, 18 year old kids there. | 1:04:51 | |
Interviewer | So you were surprised to find out | 1:04:56 |
that they were afraid of you? | 1:05:00 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | |
It was just the fact that if they're scared, | 1:05:01 | |
they could do anything to you, | 1:05:05 | |
so you try not to make any sort of movement | 1:05:08 | |
or anything, because they're free. | 1:05:12 | |
They could knock you down and do whatever they want to. | 1:05:14 | |
Interviewer | When you went, did you ever get exercise? | 1:05:22 |
And can you describe how the exercise was | 1:05:24 | |
when you were allowed in the exercise? | 1:05:26 | |
- | In Camp X-Ray, we were allowed out of our cells. | 1:05:29 |
Those very first photos of the people sitting down, | 1:05:34 | |
we were allowed to go in that area | 1:05:38 | |
for about five minutes and walk around. | 1:05:40 | |
We had to keep our heads down | 1:05:43 | |
and our hands were still shackled together. | 1:05:44 | |
Interviewer | Could you look to the side? | 1:05:47 |
- | No, you had to look down and walk around, | 1:05:48 |
'cause there's like people on that side in their cells, | 1:05:51 | |
and that side, and you weren't allowed | 1:05:53 | |
to communicate with them. | 1:05:54 | |
So that was for about five minutes every week. | 1:05:56 | |
Interviewer | Once a week for five-- | 1:06:00 |
- | It was the situation. | 1:06:02 |
They'd come into your cell, shackle you, | 1:06:03 | |
throw you on the floor, hold you down for about five minutes | 1:06:05 | |
while someone searched your cell, | 1:06:08 | |
and to go through that just to get five minutes of exercise, | 1:06:10 | |
it weren't worth it. | 1:06:13 | |
So hardly anyone used to go. | 1:06:14 | |
Interviewer | And did exercise improve over time? | 1:06:17 |
- | We used to get, in Camp Delta, it was 15 minutes | 1:06:22 |
for every twice a week. | 1:06:28 | |
Interviewer | Could you look to the side then? | 1:06:30 |
- | Yeah, you could look then. | 1:06:32 |
And they started giving us footballs in our cells, | 1:06:34 | |
but you're on your own in a, | 1:06:36 | |
I think it's probably about six by six meter cage, | 1:06:38 | |
and they give you a football in there. | 1:06:44 | |
You just end up kicking it against the cage, and that's it. | 1:06:47 | |
That's all you can do. | 1:06:49 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever have a football game | 1:06:50 |
with other men in the prison? | 1:06:51 | |
- | No. | |
Only when they moved me to Camp Four for two weeks. | 1:06:54 | |
Interviewer | And why did they move you to Camp Four? | 1:06:59 |
- | I have no idea. | 1:07:01 |
That was just right before the video came out | 1:07:02 | |
that we had been in Afghanistan. | 1:07:06 | |
- | Oh, did they know? | 1:07:09 |
- | I think it was just a show | |
as to why they did it. | 1:07:12 | |
They knew that in two weeks, | 1:07:13 | |
they're going to bring out this video, | 1:07:14 | |
'cause they said they're going to move me to Camp Four, | 1:07:16 | |
which is medium security, | 1:07:20 | |
which is like a large cell with 12 people in there. | 1:07:22 | |
And I refused to go. | 1:07:26 | |
- | Why? | 1:07:28 |
- | I thought, | |
what's the difference in me going there or staying here? | 1:07:29 | |
I'd rather stay here. | 1:07:32 | |
'Cause there's only moving me on my own | 1:07:33 | |
into a group of people that I don't even know. | 1:07:36 | |
I said, "I might as well stay here next to people | 1:07:38 | |
that I could speak with." | 1:07:40 | |
But they refused to listen to me. | 1:07:42 | |
They took me to interrogation, | 1:07:45 | |
and they made me change out of my orange uniform | 1:07:46 | |
into a white uniform, and took me there. | 1:07:49 | |
And I was there for two weeks, | 1:07:54 | |
but the soldiers, for some reason, | 1:07:57 | |
they were just making my life hell there. | 1:08:00 | |
They wouldn't let me sleep. | 1:08:02 | |
There was a camera right in the block | 1:08:03 | |
that used to be on my bed all the time, | 1:08:07 | |
and they're like constantly being watched. | 1:08:09 | |
And I just felt like, this is hell in here for me, | 1:08:12 | |
although I'm open, I can walk around a lot more, | 1:08:15 | |
but it just felt like hell. | 1:08:19 | |
And they used to have these floodlights in the cell, | 1:08:20 | |
and it would be impossible to sleep. | 1:08:22 | |
So I ended up sleeping under my bunk | 1:08:24 | |
just to block the lights. | 1:08:26 | |
And they wouldn't let me do it. | 1:08:28 | |
They used to make me sleep on top. | 1:08:29 | |
And after about two weeks, they said | 1:08:33 | |
that you've got to go to interrogation. | 1:08:39 | |
And I wake up, got outside the block to go to interrogation, | 1:08:42 | |
and instead of two soldiers being there to take me, | 1:08:47 | |
there was about 30 people standing there. | 1:08:51 | |
Most of them were in civilian clothing, | 1:08:55 | |
and they were all looking at me. | 1:08:58 | |
The two soldiers guarding me, | 1:09:00 | |
they put me onto the back of this, | 1:09:01 | |
they were called the Gators, | 1:09:03 | |
the trucks that they used to use, and sat me on there. | 1:09:05 | |
And it was like a massive convoy of trucks right behind me. | 1:09:09 | |
They took me out the Camp Four, took me back to Camp Delta | 1:09:14 | |
into the level four block, which is basically, | 1:09:20 | |
you got nothing. | 1:09:26 | |
And they all walked me to my cell. | 1:09:27 | |
Everyone got off their trucks. | 1:09:30 | |
There's 30 people walking me into my cell. | 1:09:32 | |
And as soon as I get in the block, | 1:09:35 | |
the rest of the detainees, they're saying to me, | 1:09:38 | |
"What's going on? | 1:09:39 | |
What's with all these people?" | 1:09:41 | |
I don't know, I haven't got a clue what's going on. | 1:09:42 | |
They put me into the cell | 1:09:43 | |
and make me take off my white uniform | 1:09:46 | |
and give me an orange one. | 1:09:50 | |
And they stand there at my cell for about five minutes, | 1:09:52 | |
not saying anything to me, mumbling amongst themselves. | 1:09:55 | |
And I couldn't understand what they were saying. | 1:09:58 | |
And then they left. | 1:10:00 | |
As soon as they leave, everyone's like, | 1:10:02 | |
"Wow, what's going on here? | 1:10:03 | |
Where have you been?" | 1:10:05 | |
I said, "I was in Camp Four. | 1:10:06 | |
Now I've been moved back here." | 1:10:07 | |
They said, "Why'd they move you?" | 1:10:09 | |
I said, "I have no idea." | 1:10:10 | |
Then two days later, they moved me from that block | 1:10:11 | |
into solitary confinement. | 1:10:15 | |
That's when I started my three month stay in there. | 1:10:17 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever think you'd get out of solitary | 1:10:21 |
or did you think you might be there forever? | 1:10:23 | |
- | What happens is, when you go into solitary, | 1:10:29 |
they have a book telling you | 1:10:32 | |
how long you're staying in there. | 1:10:33 | |
Interviewer | They tell you | 1:10:35 |
in advance how long you'll be there? | 1:10:36 | |
- | Well, if you ask them, they'll tell you. | 1:10:37 |
I asked the guy. | 1:10:39 | |
He said, "We don't know, | 1:10:40 | |
because they haven't put a date down | 1:10:43 | |
how long you're gonna be in there for. | 1:10:44 | |
So I didn't know what, how long I was in there for. | 1:10:46 | |
And two days later, Asif and Rahul were moved | 1:10:49 | |
into there as well. | 1:10:52 | |
Interviewer | And then did you know | 1:10:55 |
that you'd be there for three months? | 1:10:57 | |
- | No, I heard, when I was, | 1:10:59 |
before I got moved into isolation, | 1:11:01 | |
when I was in the level four block, | 1:11:02 | |
I was sleeping, and there was a Pakistani guy next to me, | 1:11:06 | |
talking to one of the soldiers. | 1:11:09 | |
And he could speak broken English. | 1:11:12 | |
And he asked this guy, "Why have they brought me back here?" | 1:11:14 | |
And he said to him, all I heard, was what woke me up, | 1:11:19 | |
he said, "We got him." | 1:11:21 | |
I sat up and I got up and I started listening | 1:11:24 | |
to what he was saying, saying, "Yeah, we got him. | 1:11:27 | |
He's a member of Al-Qaeda." | 1:11:28 | |
I got up. | 1:11:30 | |
I said, "What are you talking about a member of Al-Qaeda?" | 1:11:32 | |
They said, "Our seniors have told us | 1:11:34 | |
that we've got footage of you | 1:11:39 | |
in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, | 1:11:42 | |
and you're a member of Al-Qaeda." | 1:11:44 | |
And I just thought nothing of it. | 1:11:48 | |
That's when I got moved to isolation. | 1:11:52 | |
A few days later, I was taken into interrogation | 1:11:54 | |
and they put the photos in front of me. | 1:11:57 | |
There's a group of people sitting there. | 1:11:58 | |
Everyone's face is blurred. | 1:12:00 | |
You can't make out who's who, | 1:12:02 | |
and there's three people sitting in a row | 1:12:04 | |
and they said, "These three are you. | 1:12:07 | |
You're in a rally prior to 9/11 in Afghanistan." | 1:12:10 | |
And hearing that, you just go in to shock. | 1:12:15 | |
Where have they got this from? | 1:12:19 | |
What are they trying to do? | 1:12:20 | |
Is this going to make me end up, | 1:12:22 | |
is this going to make the situation | 1:12:25 | |
where I'll be spending the rest of my life in Guantanamo? | 1:12:27 | |
All of these things start going through your head | 1:12:31 | |
and you start denying it. | 1:12:32 | |
And they say, "No, no, it's you. | 1:12:34 | |
There's no point denying it. | 1:12:35 | |
We know it's you." | 1:12:37 | |
And you're in this cell in the middle of nowhere. | 1:12:40 | |
You've got no communication with the outside world. | 1:12:43 | |
And what do you do? | 1:12:46 | |
Interviewer | Certainly, did you feel really hopeless? | 1:12:50 |
Is that-- | 1:12:52 | |
- | Yeah. | |
It was like hopeless. | 1:12:54 | |
They were saying, "Write to your family | 1:12:55 | |
and tell them to send information | 1:12:58 | |
to say that you were in the UK." | 1:13:00 | |
How can I do that in a cell? | 1:13:07 | |
It's gonna take you eight months to send the letter out. | 1:13:09 | |
And I don't know how long it's going to take | 1:13:11 | |
before you get a reply back. | 1:13:12 | |
And one of the things I said to 'em, | 1:13:15 | |
I said, "In democracy, don't we believe | 1:13:16 | |
in innocent until proven guilty? | 1:13:19 | |
And where is that now? | 1:13:21 | |
In your eyes, I'm guilty, | 1:13:23 | |
and you want me to prove my innocence." | 1:13:25 | |
Interviewer | What'd they say? | 1:13:28 |
- | They never give you a reply. | 1:13:29 |
If you say something like that to them, | 1:13:32 | |
they'll never give you a reply back. | 1:13:33 | |
And one occasion, it must've been a few weeks after that. | 1:13:36 | |
I was taken to interrogation and it was the FBI. | 1:13:40 | |
They made it clear that they were FBI sitting | 1:13:44 | |
in there interrogating me. | 1:13:45 | |
And at this time, I didn't know what the date was | 1:13:49 | |
on the-- | 1:13:53 | |
- | The video. | |
- | Yeah. | 1:13:56 |
'Cause they were giving me stills of the video, | 1:13:57 | |
and they'd purposely taped over the dates | 1:13:58 | |
so I wouldn't know, and the guy is showing me the photos. | 1:14:01 | |
And I said, "What's the date on here?" | 1:14:04 | |
He said, "We can't tell you that." | 1:14:07 | |
I said, "Then that seems | 1:14:09 | |
like you're trying to screw me over." | 1:14:11 | |
And he said, "Maybe we am." | 1:14:13 | |
And that was it. | 1:14:16 | |
I said, "I can't tell you the date. | 1:14:18 | |
I can't tell you where I was if I don't know the date." | 1:14:20 | |
And that was it, and I was taken back to my cell. | 1:14:23 | |
Interviewer | Were are you able to talk | 1:14:26 |
to the other two men? | 1:14:27 | |
- | No. | |
Interviewer | So you had no idea what they were saying. | 1:14:29 |
- | It's the same thing. | 1:14:32 |
We found out later that they were going | 1:14:33 | |
through the exact same thing. | 1:14:35 | |
They were being shown the photos, | 1:14:36 | |
but the actual video, I was the only one | 1:14:37 | |
that saw the actual video of what-- | 1:14:39 | |
Interviewer | And why did they show you the actual video? | 1:14:41 |
- | I don't know. | 1:14:44 |
They made a big deal out of showing me the video. | 1:14:45 | |
They said, "Oh, we've got these officials come over | 1:14:48 | |
from Washington, they've just flown specially over | 1:14:50 | |
to see you and show you this video." | 1:14:53 | |
Interviewer | And did those officials | 1:14:56 |
from Washington speak to you? | 1:14:57 | |
- | Yeah, they were in the room. | 1:14:59 |
Interviewer | Do you know who they were? | 1:15:00 |
- | It was some female. | 1:15:02 |
I have no idea who she was. | 1:15:03 | |
She goes, "Oh, we've come over to find out | 1:15:06 | |
and to prove that it's not you in the video. | 1:15:11 | |
Please, can you help us?" | 1:15:14 | |
It really just felt like, you're not here to help me. | 1:15:16 | |
You're here to help yourselves. | 1:15:21 | |
And they're just making a big deal out of it, | 1:15:23 | |
and showing me this video. | 1:15:26 | |
They're showing me the video, and that was the first time | 1:15:27 | |
I'd actually seen the date on there. | 1:15:29 | |
And I said to him, "Yeah, if you contact the UK, | 1:15:31 | |
they'll prove that I was in the UK during this time." | 1:15:33 | |
But they weren't prepared to believe that. | 1:15:35 | |
And the video, it seems like there's a group of people, | 1:15:37 | |
and that the one filming these people, | 1:15:44 | |
he's got a hidden camera on him, | 1:15:47 | |
because there's people coming up to him and hugging him, | 1:15:49 | |
and then you can't see anything, it just goes black. | 1:15:51 | |
So it must've been around here, | 1:15:53 | |
he had a camera hidden on him. | 1:15:54 | |
And it's really bad quality. | 1:15:56 | |
The only person you can make out is Osama bin Laden, | 1:15:59 | |
'cause he's standing at the front | 1:16:02 | |
and he's like towering above everyone else | 1:16:04 | |
and talking to the people. | 1:16:08 | |
So you know it's him. | 1:16:10 | |
Then it pans to the, there must've been | 1:16:12 | |
about 60, 70 people sitting on the floor, | 1:16:14 | |
and that's when they stopped the video. | 1:16:17 | |
And so show these three guys. | 1:16:19 | |
Everyone in that video is wearing a black turban, | 1:16:22 | |
so about half their face is covered. | 1:16:25 | |
And they're saying, "Yeah, these three people are you." | 1:16:28 | |
And it's just like, it was strange trying to explain to 'em, | 1:16:32 | |
that is not me. | 1:16:36 | |
- | Was MI5 there too? | |
- | No, not during that time. | 1:16:39 |
They came, I think just before we were taken | 1:16:42 | |
out of isolation, that's when they came | 1:16:44 | |
and said that it's not, | 1:16:46 | |
according to our records, it's not them, | 1:16:48 | |
but they could have traveled on false passports. | 1:16:50 | |
Interviewer | And could you, if, | 1:16:54 |
would you describe, | 1:16:57 | |
is there a situation which was the worst experience you had | 1:16:58 | |
in Guantanamo? | 1:17:02 | |
Would this be it or was there another thing | 1:17:03 | |
that you think was just really the worst? | 1:17:05 | |
If there's one thing that was? | 1:17:07 | |
- | I think during the whole experience, | 1:17:11 |
it was just not knowing what's happening | 1:17:13 | |
is the worst experience. | 1:17:15 | |
But through it, this was the worst. | 1:17:16 | |
So we had been taken to isolation | 1:17:18 | |
and from isolation, taken to interrogation, | 1:17:21 | |
not being interrogated, short shackled to the floor, | 1:17:24 | |
having really loud music played, | 1:17:27 | |
and all these things going through your head, | 1:17:29 | |
what's happening? | 1:17:32 | |
What's gonna, why are they doing this to me? | 1:17:33 | |
I haven't done anything wrong. | 1:17:36 | |
And just like for hours and hours being | 1:17:37 | |
in that stressed position, | 1:17:39 | |
then just being taken out and put back into your cell. | 1:17:41 | |
And you just feel like, what the hell just happened? | 1:17:44 | |
But the worst is, they can beat you with the mental torture | 1:17:47 | |
of what they do to you is the worst. | 1:17:54 | |
It's just not knowing what's gonna happen, | 1:17:56 | |
if you're gonna see your family again | 1:17:59 | |
Because at one occasion, our families were threatened, | 1:18:02 | |
that if we didn't cooperate with the military, | 1:18:05 | |
that our families could be arrested | 1:18:09 | |
and deported back to our home countries, | 1:18:10 | |
and the Americans can tell them | 1:18:13 | |
to do whatever they want with them. | 1:18:17 | |
And you're in that vulnerable situation. | 1:18:19 | |
You believe everything that they say, | 1:18:21 | |
and they want information you can't give them, | 1:18:24 | |
'cause you don't know anything about it, | 1:18:27 | |
and they're threatening your families. | 1:18:29 | |
And just having that mental torture is just unbearable. | 1:18:31 | |
You get to a stage where a beating is a beating. | 1:18:36 | |
Physical torture, okay, it's bad, but your body can take it | 1:18:39 | |
more than it can take mental torture. | 1:18:48 | |
Mental torture, it's not yourself. | 1:18:52 | |
It's other people. | 1:18:54 | |
And you don't know what's happening. | 1:18:56 | |
So you just believe everything that they say, | 1:18:57 | |
and you're just, it's constantly worrying | 1:19:01 | |
about what's gonna happen. | 1:19:02 | |
Interviewer | And that never ends for you? | 1:19:06 |
- | No. | 1:19:08 |
Interviewer | How did you find out | 1:19:11 |
that you were gonna be leaving Guantanamo? | 1:19:13 | |
How did that happen? | 1:19:14 | |
- | It was the Red Cross that actually told us | 1:19:16 |
that we were gonna be leaving within the next few weeks. | 1:19:18 | |
I think it was-- | 1:19:23 | |
- | Did you believe them? | |
- | In some ways, yes. | 1:19:26 |
But we had to get confirmation from one of the block guards | 1:19:29 | |
that we used to get on with, | 1:19:34 | |
that we didn't tell him what was going on. | 1:19:36 | |
They said, "There's some news about the British detainees. | 1:19:39 | |
Can you go and find out for us?" | 1:19:42 | |
And the next day, we were called out. | 1:19:45 | |
I think it was Jack Straw, the foreign secretary. | 1:19:48 | |
He released the names of the detainees | 1:19:50 | |
who were gonna be released. | 1:19:53 | |
So this soldier didn't know what we knew. | 1:19:56 | |
And we told him to go find out, | 1:19:59 | |
and he confirmed exactly what they had said to us. | 1:20:00 | |
That's when we believed it was true. | 1:20:03 | |
Interviewer | And what happened then, | 1:20:05 |
when you were told you were released? | 1:20:07 | |
Did anything change in your conditions? | 1:20:09 | |
- | Yeah, we were starting to go to interrogation, | 1:20:13 |
not to be interrogated, but to watch movies, | 1:20:17 | |
and given a lot more food so we can start putting on weight. | 1:20:21 | |
We knew what was going on. | 1:20:27 | |
But we just played along with it. | 1:20:29 | |
We didn't mention it to the interrogators | 1:20:31 | |
who were taking us in that this is what was going on. | 1:20:34 | |
We knew that we were gonna get released. | 1:20:38 | |
We never mentioned it to 'em. | 1:20:40 | |
And the week before we actually got released, | 1:20:42 | |
they called us in and said to us that, | 1:20:43 | |
"If you work for us that you'll be out of here | 1:20:46 | |
within a week." | 1:20:50 | |
And we already knew the following Tuesday, | 1:20:52 | |
Monday or Tuesday, that we were gonna be out of there. | 1:20:54 | |
Interviewer | And when you were taken to the plane, | 1:20:59 |
did you believe that the plane was gonna actually leave | 1:21:01 | |
for England, did you really think-- | 1:21:03 | |
- | The night before we left, | 1:21:06 |
there was two British police officers came | 1:21:08 | |
and told us what the procedure is gonna be for the next day. | 1:21:11 | |
Interviewer | What was the procedure? | 1:21:17 |
- | They were telling us about what, | 1:21:19 |
they're gonna put, we're gonna get transferred | 1:21:21 | |
into British custody, taken to the UK, | 1:21:23 | |
where we will be formally arrested, | 1:21:26 | |
And taken to Paddington Green Police Station, | 1:21:29 | |
where we'll be interrogated. | 1:21:32 | |
Interviewer | They told you this before you-- | 1:21:32 |
- | Yeah. | 1:21:34 |
Interviewer | So you knew you weren't gonna be free, | 1:21:35 |
that you were still-- | 1:21:37 | |
- | Yeah. | |
Well, what we knew was we were going back to the UK. | 1:21:38 | |
And the only case that we knew about was John Walker Lindh, | 1:21:41 | |
when he got 20 years. | 1:21:44 | |
So we just expected the worst, | 1:21:45 | |
that we were gonna go up to the UK, | 1:21:48 | |
we were gonna get tried, | 1:21:50 | |
and we're gonna spend 20 years in prison. | 1:21:51 | |
We didn't care about that, | 1:21:52 | |
'cause we were gonna be back in the UK. | 1:21:54 | |
That wasn't-- | 1:21:56 | |
- | It was worth it? | |
- | Yeah, that was worth it, | 1:21:58 |
because we'd be in a proper prison there. | 1:21:59 | |
At least we'd have some communication with our families. | 1:22:02 | |
But that was like better than being in that situation. | 1:22:04 | |
So that's what we were expecting. | 1:22:10 | |
We got transferred, the night before, | 1:22:13 | |
I think it was three days before we were moved to isolation | 1:22:16 | |
and kept there for three days. | 1:22:24 | |
We were measured up for clothes. | 1:22:26 | |
Why they did it, I don't know, | 1:22:29 | |
'cause the clothes they gave us were too big anyway. | 1:22:31 | |
It was denim jeans and white T-shirt and a denim jacket. | 1:22:34 | |
About three o'clock in the morning, they woke us up. | 1:22:41 | |
They gave us our MREs, our meals. | 1:22:44 | |
Told us to change our clothes. | 1:22:48 | |
Basically taken out and put onto those school buses, | 1:22:53 | |
that's what they used to use for transporting people, | 1:22:59 | |
and taken to the plane. | 1:23:02 | |
Interviewer | And how were you treated on the plane? | 1:23:03 |
- | They were being real nice with us. | 1:23:07 |
- | They were? | 1:23:08 |
- | Yeah. | |
Interviewer | Were you shackled on the plane? | 1:23:10 |
- | No. | 1:23:11 |
What happened was, when we were transferred | 1:23:12 | |
from American custody to British, | 1:23:13 | |
the guys, the soldier who took me, he said | 1:23:17 | |
"All right, I'm gonna take my cuffs off, | 1:23:20 | |
and you're gonna put yours on." | 1:23:22 | |
And the police officer said, | 1:23:24 | |
"That that won't be necessary. | 1:23:25 | |
We won't be putting our cuffs on them." | 1:23:27 | |
And his, the soldier's guy's face, it just dropped. | 1:23:29 | |
He said "What?" | 1:23:32 | |
And 'cause he was treating, | 1:23:33 | |
he was like manhandling me in the bus. | 1:23:35 | |
Yeah, so I just turned around, | 1:23:39 | |
I had a big grin on my face. | 1:23:41 | |
And I just laughed at him. | 1:23:42 | |
And he didn't like that. | 1:23:43 | |
But now we were in British custody. | 1:23:44 | |
I didn't care. | 1:23:45 | |
And we were with just two police officers | 1:23:47 | |
who marched us onto the plane. | 1:23:52 | |
We were sat down, and we had our separate seats. | 1:23:53 | |
And each of us had five police officers with us. | 1:23:55 | |
- | Each had five? | 1:24:00 |
- | One was sitting here. | |
One was sitting there, and there was three sitting | 1:24:02 | |
in front of us. | 1:24:03 | |
And everyone had a camera that, I was sitting here. | 1:24:05 | |
There's two police officers there, | 1:24:09 | |
three in front of me, | 1:24:10 | |
there was a camera right in front of me there, | 1:24:11 | |
and there was one on the side. | 1:24:13 | |
So they were filming everything. | 1:24:15 | |
- | Were they British? | 1:24:16 |
- | Yeah. | |
They were all British police officers. | 1:24:17 | |
- | The five people? | 1:24:19 |
- | Yeah. | |
Interviewer | Were there American military | 1:24:20 |
on the plane too? | 1:24:22 | |
- | No, it was a RAF plane. | |
Interviewer | And when you came to London, what happened? | 1:24:26 |
- | The customs excise people | 1:24:33 |
who came on the plane, and asked us questions about, | 1:24:35 | |
asked our address and family background. | 1:24:41 | |
Then we were told that we were gonna be walked | 1:24:44 | |
off the plane, there was going | 1:24:46 | |
to be a lot of journalists there taking our photos, | 1:24:48 | |
but just keep your head down. | 1:24:51 | |
And we said, "Okay." | 1:24:54 | |
But for some reason, they changed their minds. | 1:24:57 | |
They brought the vans onto the plane | 1:24:57 | |
and put us in the vans on the plane. | 1:25:00 | |
So nobody saw us, and took us | 1:25:04 | |
to Paddington Green Police Station, which was weird, | 1:25:05 | |
because the whole area had been cordoned off. | 1:25:09 | |
Nobody was allowed to come into that police station. | 1:25:12 | |
And you could see the flash photography going on. | 1:25:15 | |
People outside, all I saw, soon as we left, | 1:25:18 | |
came off the plane and went outside, | 1:25:22 | |
I saw the sirens come on. | 1:25:24 | |
And somebody was holding a placard | 1:25:26 | |
with freedom written on there. | 1:25:28 | |
I said, "Yeah, we're back in the UK now." | 1:25:31 | |
And then we were taken to Paddington Green Police Station | 1:25:33 | |
where we spent 48 hours, | 1:25:37 | |
that we were interrogated about four different times. | 1:25:39 | |
And that was the first time we actually spoke to our lawyers | 1:25:43 | |
and they said to us, "Don't worry. | 1:25:46 | |
Nothing's gonna happen. | 1:25:47 | |
You're gonna be out of here within," they said "two weeks." | 1:25:48 | |
That they can't keep you, | 1:25:51 | |
they can't keep you any longer than two weeks. | 1:25:53 | |
And we couldn't believe it. | 1:25:54 | |
And Gareth, my lawyer, said to me, | 1:25:57 | |
"Any questions they ask you, | 1:26:01 | |
you're not going to say anything. | 1:26:03 | |
Don't even say no comment. | 1:26:05 | |
You just keep your mouth shut." | 1:26:06 | |
I said, "No, I can't do that," | 1:26:08 | |
because the last 2 1/2 years, | 1:26:09 | |
we've been answering every question | 1:26:10 | |
that's been thrown at us. | 1:26:12 | |
He said, "No, you just keep your mouth quiet. | 1:26:15 | |
Don't say anything at all." | 1:26:16 | |
And that was just strange. | 1:26:18 | |
And within 48 hours, we were free, | 1:26:19 | |
walking the streets of London. | 1:26:22 | |
It was unbelievable that three days earlier | 1:26:23 | |
we were in maximum security prison. | 1:26:27 | |
Now we were free to do whatever we want. | 1:26:29 | |
Woman | So what did you do? | 1:26:32 |
- | Oh, it was like, being locked up all the time | 1:26:35 |
and coming out of our cells with the shackles on, | 1:26:39 | |
we always used to take small steps, | 1:26:42 | |
and even though we were released, walking the streets, | 1:26:44 | |
we were still taking them small steps. | 1:26:47 | |
It took us about two days to get out of that habit | 1:26:49 | |
and just like walking. | 1:26:53 | |
We stayed in Gareth's house, | 1:26:54 | |
and just like, it's just being able to do whatever you want, | 1:26:56 | |
it just took a little bit longer to get used to it again. | 1:27:00 | |
- | How did you know about, | 1:27:06 |
I just want to go back for a minute. | 1:27:07 | |
How did you know about John Walker Lindh? | 1:27:08 | |
How did you hear about him? | 1:27:09 | |
Was there really that you heard about outside activities | 1:27:11 | |
while you were in prison? | 1:27:14 | |
- | Oh, he was in Sheberghan Prison. | 1:27:16 |
- | Right. | 1:27:19 |
- | When we were there, | |
but he was kept separate. | 1:27:20 | |
And I think he was there for about two days | 1:27:23 | |
and they come and took him. | 1:27:28 | |
But there was stories going around about an American | 1:27:29 | |
who was there and that he'd been taken. | 1:27:32 | |
We didn't know who he was. | 1:27:34 | |
Then we, remember, I think when we got to Qandahar, | 1:27:36 | |
there was a lot of soldiers talking about him. | 1:27:40 | |
That's when we found out his name | 1:27:42 | |
and what had happened to him. | 1:27:43 | |
Then slowly, being in Guantanamo, | 1:27:45 | |
and just getting little bits of information | 1:27:46 | |
from different people. | 1:27:48 | |
That's how we learned to his story. | 1:27:50 | |
Interviewer | The soldiers told you what was going on? | 1:27:52 |
- | Yeah. | 1:27:53 |
Interviewer | Did they tell you | 1:27:54 |
about what was going on politically in America too? | 1:27:55 | |
- | No, they weren't allowed to talk | 1:27:57 |
about anything about that. | 1:27:58 | |
Interviewer | But they told you | 1:27:59 |
about John Walker Lindh. | 1:28:01 | |
- | There's just little snippets of information. | 1:28:02 |
They gave us a magazine once. | 1:28:03 | |
I don't know what it was. | 1:28:06 | |
And it had a column about John Walker Lindh. | 1:28:07 | |
And I happened to mention it to one of the soldiers, | 1:28:11 | |
and within 20 minutes I was taken out of my cell | 1:28:16 | |
and the magazine was taken away from me. | 1:28:19 | |
Interviewer | And you never met him when you were-- | 1:28:23 |
- | No, although he was in the same camp, | 1:28:25 |
in the same prison, but I think he was there | 1:28:28 | |
for about two days, but we never actually saw him. | 1:28:30 | |
Interviewer | What would you say your opinion | 1:28:33 |
of America was before you came to Guantanamo | 1:28:35 | |
and after you left? | 1:28:38 | |
And also your opinion of the UK before and after? | 1:28:41 | |
- | I don't think I really had an opinion on America. | 1:28:47 |
It was just, I've never been there. | 1:28:49 | |
It's just what you see in the movies. | 1:28:52 | |
That's what you have. | 1:28:53 | |
I don't think my opinion of America | 1:28:55 | |
as a country has changed. | 1:28:59 | |
It's just another place that hopefully one, | 1:29:01 | |
sometime in the future, I'd love to go there. | 1:29:05 | |
'Cause there's a lot of soldiers | 1:29:08 | |
that we used to talk to and the places | 1:29:09 | |
that they used to live in, that we would like to see that. | 1:29:11 | |
But as a country, I've got nothing against America | 1:29:16 | |
as a country. | 1:29:18 | |
I've got nothing against American people. | 1:29:20 | |
I never have. | 1:29:21 | |
I never will. | 1:29:22 | |
It's just the government, what they did to me, | 1:29:23 | |
is what the government did to me, | 1:29:26 | |
it's not what the people did to me. | 1:29:27 | |
So I think we used to communicate that with the soldiers, | 1:29:32 | |
the soldiers were there. | 1:29:35 | |
They had a job, they had to do it. | 1:29:36 | |
They had no choice. | 1:29:38 | |
So there's no point in holding a grudge against them, | 1:29:39 | |
because if they didn't do, they'd be in the cell next to us. | 1:29:42 | |
Well, it's like the officials, | 1:29:45 | |
what they were telling them to do, | 1:29:46 | |
which is what I find it hard | 1:29:50 | |
to forgive them for what they did. | 1:29:53 | |
Interviewer | And how about the UK? | 1:29:57 |
Did you have any thoughts about the UK? | 1:29:59 | |
- | I think I have stronger opinions about the UK | 1:30:01 |
for not helping us more than I do with America. | 1:30:06 | |
'Cause they could have taken us out of there a lot, | 1:30:12 | |
a lot, a lot earlier than they did. | 1:30:15 | |
But it was a situation where we'd say | 1:30:17 | |
to the Americans, "Why are we still here?" | 1:30:20 | |
And they'd say to us, | 1:30:22 | |
"Oh, the British government doesn't want you back. | 1:30:24 | |
That's why you're here." | 1:30:27 | |
And we asked the Americans, I mean, | 1:30:28 | |
asked the British why we were still here, | 1:30:30 | |
and they'd say, "Oh, you're in American custody, | 1:30:31 | |
and we can't do anything about it." | 1:30:34 | |
So you can think, who's telling the truth? | 1:30:37 | |
Who's lying? | 1:30:40 | |
But I think they, 'cause them, | 1:30:41 | |
America's number one allies. | 1:30:44 | |
They could have done something a lot quicker than they did. | 1:30:46 | |
But for some reason they didn't do anything for us. | 1:30:50 | |
And since we've been back, | 1:30:53 | |
they haven't really done anything for us. | 1:30:55 | |
They said, they came on the news, | 1:30:56 | |
if you watched the press release before we got released, | 1:30:58 | |
it said, "Yeah, we'll help them do this. | 1:31:00 | |
We'll give them, so-and-so will get them houses, | 1:31:03 | |
we'll give them new lives." | 1:31:06 | |
But nothing, we haven't had nothing. | 1:31:08 | |
I think it's like the situation, | 1:31:12 | |
if someone's guilty of a crime | 1:31:15 | |
and they get released from prison, | 1:31:17 | |
they get a hell of a lot more than we do, we ever got. | 1:31:19 | |
Interviewer | Did the Brits even talk to you | 1:31:24 |
after you were, after those 48 hours? | 1:31:26 | |
Did you ever see them again, an official somebody? | 1:31:29 | |
- | To this day, I haven't seen them. | 1:31:32 |
- | Can I ask a question? | 1:31:36 |
- | Yeah. | |
Woman | Did you have any physical injuries | 1:31:38 |
or physical ailments that resulted | 1:31:42 | |
from the treatment that you underwent | 1:31:44 | |
while you were at Guantanamo? | 1:31:48 | |
- | Being locked up. | |
I think it was from the short shackling. | 1:31:53 | |
I still get pain in my knees and in my back. | 1:31:55 | |
And that was probably from sleeping on the metal bunks | 1:31:59 | |
as well, during night time, it used to get really cold, | 1:32:03 | |
and you'd have no choice, but to sleep on the metal. | 1:32:06 | |
Woman | And has it gotten better over time or not really? | 1:32:08 |
- | Not really, no. | 1:32:12 |
During the summer it's okay, | 1:32:13 | |
but during the winter time, it's like arthritis. | 1:32:14 | |
It just like, it gets really painful. | 1:32:17 | |
Interviewer | I only have a couple more questions, | 1:32:19 |
and one is, is there anything | 1:32:21 | |
that you would like to happen now? | 1:32:23 | |
Not that we can necessarily do anything, | 1:32:25 | |
but I'm just wondering if-- | 1:32:27 | |
- | No, Obama would have said, if he comes into power, | 1:32:28 |
he's going to close Guantanamo | 1:32:30 | |
within the first hundred days. | 1:32:31 | |
I don't know how many days it's been, | 1:32:36 | |
well over 100 now, so what's going on? | 1:32:37 | |
Interviewer | Do you think, | 1:32:43 |
do you know people still in Guantanamo? | 1:32:44 | |
- | Yeah, Omar, the Canadian. | 1:32:46 |
He's still there. | 1:32:48 | |
There's a few Saudis still there. | 1:32:49 | |
And it's just like, there's one British guy, Shaker Aamer, | 1:32:54 | |
he's still there. | 1:32:57 | |
You see his family and them probably thinking, | 1:32:59 | |
why have all these, there's about 13 of us from the UK, | 1:33:02 | |
have been released and he's still there? | 1:33:05 | |
And what can you say to 'em? | 1:33:08 | |
You can't give them any information | 1:33:11 | |
about what's happening to him and why he's still there. | 1:33:13 | |
Interviewer | If you could think | 1:33:18 |
about how Guantanamo impacted you, | 1:33:21 | |
how it affected your life, maybe positively and negatively, | 1:33:26 | |
do you have any thoughts about that? | 1:33:31 | |
- | I think it has made me stronger as an individual. | 1:33:34 |
- | How so? | 1:33:39 |
- | 'Cause it brought me more | |
towards my religion than I was before. | 1:33:43 | |
It is a situation where they used to say to us, | 1:33:47 | |
"Denounce your faith in Islam and you'll get released." | 1:33:51 | |
And instead of that taking you away from Islam, | 1:33:56 | |
it brought us more closer and we start learning more. | 1:33:59 | |
So why do they want us to denounce our religion, | 1:34:03 | |
and they would release us? | 1:34:07 | |
So that brought us more towards Islam. | 1:34:09 | |
And we started learning more, | 1:34:12 | |
started reading the Quran more | 1:34:13 | |
and learning Arabic, making us more stronger. | 1:34:15 | |
'Cause there's one time in Camp X-Ray, | 1:34:22 | |
I was just like really depressed and said, | 1:34:27 | |
"This is one of my lowest points." | 1:34:29 | |
And one of the Arab guys, | 1:34:32 | |
he's one of the learned scholars. | 1:34:34 | |
He said to me, "Don't see this place as a prison. | 1:34:37 | |
See this as a learning point for yourself." | 1:34:40 | |
It's like you're at school, | 1:34:45 | |
you're here to learn about Islam. | 1:34:46 | |
Yeah, and to make the best of it. | 1:34:48 | |
Although it didn't click in straightaway, | 1:34:51 | |
him saying that, over a period of time, | 1:34:54 | |
you say, yeah, he's right, what he said. | 1:34:57 | |
And I think that that little thing he said to me | 1:35:00 | |
made a huge impact on me | 1:35:03 | |
throughout the 2 1/2 years I was there. | 1:35:06 | |
Interviewer | Did people really say to you | 1:35:10 |
that if you abandoned Islam, they'll release you? | 1:35:12 | |
- | Yeah. | 1:35:15 |
There's interrogators that used to say that to us. | 1:35:16 | |
There's one, there's another case, | 1:35:18 | |
there's some guys who were converts to Islam, | 1:35:20 | |
and one in particular, I can say, | 1:35:25 | |
David Hicks from Australia, | 1:35:28 | |
who they said to him "If you become a Christian now, | 1:35:31 | |
we will release you back to Australia," | 1:35:33 | |
which you knew was a blatant lie, | 1:35:36 | |
'cause that's never gonna happen. | 1:35:38 | |
Interviewer | David Hicks told you that | 1:35:41 |
or how did you know that? | 1:35:42 | |
- | David Hicks actually said that to us. | 1:35:43 |
He told us. | 1:35:44 | |
Interviewer | So you learned something about yourself, | 1:35:47 |
and became stronger from. | 1:35:51 | |
Was there something really negative | 1:35:54 | |
that you could look back at | 1:35:56 | |
what Guantanamo did, impact your life? | 1:35:58 | |
- | Just seeing the beatings and the mental torture | 1:36:04 |
that they were putting a lot of people through. | 1:36:09 | |
It's hard to forget that. | 1:36:11 | |
And just speaking to people who had families. | 1:36:13 | |
Although I weren't married, | 1:36:18 | |
I didn't have any children at the time, | 1:36:19 | |
so it was, it weren't that bad for us, | 1:36:21 | |
but there was people who were like 40, 50 years old | 1:36:24 | |
who have got six, seven kids, | 1:36:26 | |
and who's gonna support them? | 1:36:29 | |
And you talk to them, and you just feel really depressed. | 1:36:32 | |
And even after we were released, | 1:36:36 | |
we think, I'm on my own, my family's here. | 1:36:39 | |
Although I ain't married, I ain't got kids, | 1:36:42 | |
why have I been released, and he's still there | 1:36:44 | |
whose kids are still waiting for him? | 1:36:46 | |
Interviewer | So you knew a lot of those people | 1:36:53 |
and that was hard? | 1:36:55 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Well, I think that was, | 1:36:58 |
I think I'm finished unless it's, | 1:37:01 | |
that was wonderful. | 1:37:05 | |
- | We're all done? | |
Thank you. | 1:37:06 | |
- | Thanks so much. | |
- | Not a problem. | 1:37:07 |
- | Very appreciated. | |
Woman | Is there anything that we didn't ask | 1:37:09 |
that you think it would be important to say | 1:37:10 | |
for the documentary? | 1:37:11 | |
- | I don't know. | |
I can't think of anything off the top of my head. | 1:37:13 | |
- | You've said a lot. | 1:37:15 |
- | Yeah. | |
Well, and thank you very much. | 1:37:18 | |
- | You're welcome. | |
- | We so appreciate it, so we're done. | 1:37:20 |
Woman | So that we know, | 1:37:21 |
so just 'cause we, this is something we haven't like, | 1:37:23 | |
what were the different levels and what were denied | 1:37:26 | |
and what were-- | 1:37:29 | |
- | I can't remember what was denied. | 1:37:30 |
- | Well, it's more like you wore different uniforms, right? | 1:37:32 |
Like an orange or white-- | 1:37:34 | |
- | Oh, no, it wasn't. | |
This was all in Camp Delta, this was. | 1:37:35 | |
Interviewer | Oh, so it didn't have anything | 1:37:37 |
to do with the uniforms? | 1:37:39 | |
- | No, everyone was in orange uniform in Camp Delta. | 1:37:40 |
It was... if you have soap in your cell, or like toothpaste, | 1:37:42 | |
- | That was one level? | 1:37:50 |
- | If you had... | |
It was level one, I think, | 1:37:52 | |
you are allowed to keep it in your cell. | 1:37:53 | |
Level two was, you can have it on request. | 1:37:54 | |
Level three and four, I don't think you allowed it at all. | 1:37:58 | |
The only time you'd get soap | 1:38:02 | |
is when you were taken to the showers outside. | 1:38:03 | |
Woman | Okay. | 1:38:06 |
And so that would apply to everything, | 1:38:07 | |
to exercise, to-- | 1:38:08 | |
- | And like, yeah. |
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