Rasul, Shafiq - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

So people who are watching

0:07

will know what we're doing, I'll say a few things

0:08

they'd not heard but just,

0:11

and then I'll start with general question

0:13

about the first arrest.

0:16

-

Okay.

0:19

Interviewer

And then we can just go from there.

0:20

So--

0:21

-

Okay, whenever you're ready.

Interviewer

Okay, good afternoon.

0:22

We are very grateful to you for joining us

0:25

and participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:28

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:33

at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:36

We are hoping to collect your story

0:38

and the story of other men who have been there

0:41

and who have been, and the testimony of all the men

0:44

who have been brought to Guantanamo.

0:47

-

Okay.

0:50

Interviewer

We are creating an archive of the stories

0:51

so that people in America and in the world

0:54

will have a better understanding

0:57

of what you and others have experienced.

0:58

Future generations must know what happened,

1:02

and by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

1:05

We appreciate your courage

1:09

and your willingness to speak to us.

1:11

If at any time you want to take a break,

1:14

just let us know, and we'll take a break.

1:16

And if there's anything you say that you would like

1:18

to remove, just tell us and we'll remove it.

1:20

Okay, and we're going to just start

1:23

with a few basic questions, just to have it on tape.

1:25

The first question.

1:30

Your name?

1:31

-

My name's Shafiq Rasul.

-

And your country of origin?

1:34

-

The UK.

England, UK.

1:37

-

And your hometown?

1:38

-

Tipton.

-

And your date of birth?

1:41

-

15th of April, 1977.

-

And your age then?

1:45

-

32.

-

And your nationality?

1:47

-

British.

-

What languages do you speak?

1:50

-

Mainly English,

but I speak Urdu and Punjabi as well.

1:54

-

And your religion?

1:57

-

Muslim.

-

And marital status?

1:59

-

Married.

-

With children?

2:02

-

Yes, one daughter.

Interviewer

And your education?

2:05

-

I went to university, but I didn't finish.

2:13

Interviewer

Okay, and where were you living

2:14

before you were picked up?

2:17

-

In Tipton.

2:20

-

In Tipton?

Interviewer

And now you're living--

2:22

-

Back here--

2:24

-

In Tipton?

-

Yeah.

2:26

Interviewer

And the date of arrival to Guantanamo,

2:27

and when you left Guantanamo?

2:29

-

Is mid-January 2002, and we left, I think,

2:30

it was the 7th of March, 2004.

2:35

Interviewer

Okay, so we'd like to begin

2:38

by just asking you if you could tell us

2:41

and describe in as many details as possible

2:44

how it was when you were first arrested,

2:47

up to the time you were brought to Guantanamo.

2:49

And we can break that into pieces.

2:53

If you want to, you can just start telling what happened

2:55

when you were arrested,

2:58

where you were taken and what happened at those places,

2:59

up to the time you to Guantanamo.

3:03

-

We were actually in Sheberghan Prison.

3:07

It was a time when then Taliban had lost power,

3:10

and the Northern Alliance had taken over,

3:14

and all the non-Afghanis were arrested

3:16

and put into Sheberghan Prison.

3:19

And we were there for about a month.

3:21

And the US military came and took out,

3:25

basically all the non-Afghanis from the prison

3:29

and interrogated them.

3:34

And we were put onto a plane to Qandahar.

3:38

We was taken off that plane,

3:43

interrogated again and put into the Qandahar camp.

3:46

I think it was about six or seven times

3:55

we were interrogated by different people there.

3:56

And then about 2 1/2 weeks later,

4:00

we were flown out of Qandahar

4:05

and taken to a place which we didn't know,

4:08

which turned out later to be Guantanamo Bay.

4:11

But for the first three months

4:13

that we were there, we didn't know where we were.

4:15

Interviewer

No one ever told you where you were?

4:17

-

No.

4:19

Interviewer

And did you ask where you were?

4:20

-

Yeah.

4:21

We'd get different answers from different people.

4:22

The day we left Qandahar,

4:25

we were told that they were gonna reopen Alcatraz

4:28

and take us all there.

4:32

Interviewer

Really?

4:34

Did you think you were headed to Alcatraz?

4:35

-

Yeah, I've seen the movies about it.

4:36

So that was the story that was going around a lot

4:37

of the soldiers in Qandahar.

4:41

So you tend to believe it when you hear it

4:43

from numerous people when you're there.

4:46

Interviewer

Well, can I go back to the beginning,

4:48

when the Americans first came?

4:50

-

Yeah.

4:52

Interviewer

What did they first say to you?

4:53

What were they interested in,

4:54

and what were they asking you,

4:55

that very first time they interrogated you?

4:57

-

What we were doing in Afghanistan,

5:01

that was the first thing.

5:03

And if we had links to Al-Qaeda,

5:04

and if we had any links to what happened

5:07

in America, in New York,

5:10

and the people that we'd met while we were in Afghanistan.

5:12

And they weren't really interested in what we were saying,

5:17

'cause they had set in mind that these guys are British.

5:20

They're from the UK.

5:23

So they must be members of Al-Qaeda.

5:24

Interviewer

Why would you be members of Al-Qaeda

5:26

because you're British?

5:29

-

'Cause we were British, really,

5:30

that's the only reason that they gave.

5:31

Interviewer

Really?

5:33

-

Yeah, and that we must be some high ranking officials

5:34

in Al-Qaeda because we were British.

5:37

And they were not really prepared to listen

5:40

to what we had to say.

5:42

Interviewer

Were they military or civilians

5:44

who were interrogating you at the beginning?

5:46

Or both?

5:49

-

They were in military clothing,

5:50

but there's three of them that I got interrogated,

5:54

and they all had beards.

5:59

So--

6:01

Interviewer

So did you think they were Arabs

6:02

or were they Americans?

6:05

-

The first one, he was like a big stocky guy

6:06

and he was tan, so I thought he was a Arab.

6:08

But as soon as he opened his mouth,

6:12

he had an American accent.

6:14

So I thought, what's going on here?

6:14

And I was taken out of my cell.

6:17

And I don't know if you've seen Sheberghan Prison.

6:21

There's a long walkway to the end,

6:23

and there's a lot of soldiers sitting there with guns,

6:25

just like pointing the guns at me.

6:29

And I didn't know what was going on.

6:31

And I was taken there, and just stood in front of him,

6:33

and they brought a translator and I think he was Afghani,

6:37

'cause I couldn't understand what he was saying to me.

6:43

I said, "I speak English."

6:45

Well, as soon as I said I speak English,

6:47

everyone's face just went like, this guy speaks English?

6:49

And they're like surprised.

6:53

And--

6:55

-

I think daddy is in there.

-

Do you want me to shut him up?

6:58

-

Do you want to take a break or--

7:00

-

Yeah, I'll get him to go out and play.

7:00

-

Sorry.

7:03

-

Okay.

(inaudible)

7:04

Your phone is out of time.

7:05

-

It's all right.

Interviewer

So you were saying

7:08

that all of a sudden you said you spoke English,

7:09

and then they were all happy?

7:11

Or they were--

7:13

-

They were more shocked than happy.

7:15

Then they started asking me where I was from,

7:17

and told them I was from the UK.

7:20

Then as soon as I told them I was from the UK,

7:24

they took me into a separate room.

7:27

And just like, 'cause I had my hands tied behind my back,

7:29

and my feet were shackled together at the time,

7:32

but basically I couldn't walk.

7:34

So everywhere we was being taken,

7:36

we were getting dragged there.

7:39

And I was put in the room.

7:41

And there was a guy, I don't know if he was military,

7:43

'cause he had civilian clothing on.

7:46

And there was a soldier standing in the corner

7:48

with a rifle in his hand.

7:50

And the guy said to me, "If you move, he's gonna shoot you."

7:52

Which is like a bit, it's quite scary.

7:56

And he was the one questioning me,

7:59

"Why did you come to Afghanistan?

8:02

Who are you working for?"

8:05

And questions based around that.

8:07

And I was there for about 20 minutes,

8:10

being interrogated by him.

8:13

Then we were taken outside,

8:15

and a hood was put over our head

8:16

and it was taped over our eyes, so we couldn't see anything.

8:19

And then we were made to sit in a place.

8:22

I could feel those people sitting next to me,

8:26

which I assumed that they were all in hoods as well.

8:29

Then about, it must've been

8:33

about an hour we were sitting there,

8:35

they were bringing more people in,

8:37

because you could hear them coming in.

8:39

Then we were stood up, basically dragged,

8:40

thrown onto the back of a truck.

8:43

And then they were walking around.

8:47

I think they started numbering us then.

8:49

Interviewer

Did what?

8:51

-

Putting numbers on us so they could identify us.

8:52

Then I don't know how long we were sitting there,

8:56

because when they started, it was morning time.

9:00

And by the time the truck left the prison,

9:02

it was getting dark.

9:07

And we were taken to what I later realized

9:09

was Mazar-i-Sharif Airport,

9:13

and put onto the back of a plane and flown to Qandahar.

9:15

Interviewer

When you got to Qandahar,

9:21

did you know you were in Qandahar?

9:23

-

No, 'cause we were still hooded

9:25

when we were taken off the plane.

9:26

And we were taken off the plane and put into a row

9:29

and then they put this rope around our arms.

9:31

And they were putting that around everyone's arms,

9:34

and they were like taking them,

9:37

which seemed like they were making us walk in circles

9:39

for a long time.

9:43

Then we were put into a tent

9:45

and made to lie down on the floor,

9:48

with our hands behind our back, our feet shackled together.

9:51

And just there for a really long time,

9:54

while, I think, they were processing everybody

9:57

that was coming in.

9:59

And they were like, two soldiers would come.

10:01

If you'd try to move, they'd come

10:06

and put their knees into your back.

10:07

And at this time, while we were in Sheberghan,

10:09

we weren't getting any food.

10:11

So I'd lost about, I think it was about 40 kilos in weight.

10:13

I was really, really, really weak.

10:17

I couldn't move.

10:20

And the two guys standing on your back,

10:21

it was really painful.

10:24

Then we were taken out of there

10:26

and taken into another tent,

10:28

and all our clothes were cut off our body.

10:31

And while this was happening,

10:34

we were being interrogated at the same time by somebody--

10:36

Interpreter

While he was taking your clothes off?

10:39

-

While they were taking our clothes off,

10:41

ripping the clothes off, asking.

10:42

One of the questions he was asking,

10:43

where my passport was, and I was explaining to him

10:44

that it was in Pakistan.

10:46

And he wanted an address.

10:48

I didn't even know what the address was.

10:49

And he goes, "Oh, you should know."

10:51

And at the same time, having your clothes ripped off you,

10:53

and some guy behind you pushing you and shoving you

10:55

and being interrogated at the same time.

10:58

And at the time, you don't know what's going on,

11:02

what's gonna happen, if they're gonna kill you,

11:05

who these people are.

11:07

It sounds like it's American military,

11:08

but they could be anybody.

11:10

Then our hoods were taken off our heads

11:12

for about five seconds while they took our photos,

11:15

put back on.

11:17

And we were thrown into this barbed wire cell,

11:18

and they had a pile of clothes there,

11:22

which they told us to put on.

11:24

And then we were told to sleep, which was impossible.

11:26

They had flood lights in there,

11:35

and they had soldiers constantly walking up and down

11:37

and shouting, which made it really difficult.

11:39

I don't know if I got any sleep,

11:44

but in the morning we were woken up

11:46

and taken to be interrogated in a tent.

11:50

Which they made us sit on the floor,

11:56

hands tied behind our back.

11:58

And there's about three people in there with guns.

12:00

And there's three people sitting on the table in front of me

12:03

with military uniform on, and they were interrogating me.

12:07

And then they asked me a lot of questions,

12:11

and they threw these papers in front of me,

12:14

which were in Arabic,

12:15

and they told me to translate it.

12:16

I said, "I don't, I can read it,

12:18

but I can't translate it for you."

12:20

Which they didn't believe what I was saying.

12:21

-

They did or they didn't?

12:23

-

They didn't.

-

Did not.

12:25

-

Yeah.

And that went on for a while,

12:27

about half an hour, 40 minutes.

12:30

Then we was taken out and put into an outdoor camp

12:32

where we spent most of our time, in that camp.

12:37

And then we were interrogated on different occasions.

12:40

And one occasion, we was interrogated,

12:43

well, I found out now he was American,

12:46

putting on a British accent,

12:49

and he told me he was actually British.

12:51

But as soon as I walked in the room, I saw him,

12:53

he had an American uniform on,

12:55

which I straightaway knew that he's telling me he's British,

12:57

but why is he wearing the American uniform for?

13:00

I asked that what's going on here.

13:03

He threw some papers in front of me.

13:04

He said that you're on the Interpol most wanted list.

13:07

And he put the paper down.

13:13

But as soon as I went to read it, he pulled it away from me.

13:15

So I didn't get me a chance to read it.

13:17

And he also said to me, "24 hours after you left home,

13:19

your house was raided and your family was interrogated."

13:22

Which I straightaway knew he was lying,

13:26

because as soon as I got to Pakistan, I phoned home,

13:28

and about every day I was there, for about six days,

13:31

I was there, I was phoning home constantly.

13:35

And I knew that he was lying.

13:38

Well, I didn't say anything to him.

13:40

And he was saying, "Oh, who funded you to come to Pakistan?

13:42

Where did you get the money from?"

13:47

And I said, "I was working.

13:49

I was at university at the time, so I could fund my own."

13:50

And he said, "I'll pray to God that you paid by credit card.

13:54

So we can find out."

13:57

And when I said, "I haven't got a credit card,

13:59

everything I was doing was by cash,"

14:00

he said that you could be lying.

14:03

Then he was saying that certain people

14:06

in the UK said that you were a member of this group,

14:08

a member of that group.

14:12

And the way he was saying it, it was just like,

14:14

I knew he was lying,

14:18

but it was like putting these accusations on you,

14:20

and you didn't know what the consequences

14:23

of these accusations was gonna be.

14:26

So you was scared of what was gonna happen.

14:28

And then I'll say, "No, this isn't me.

14:33

I don't know who you're talking about.

14:35

I'm not a member of any group."

14:36

But he weren't prepared to listen to what we had to say.

14:37

Interviewer

Were you by yourself

14:42

when you were interrogated,

14:43

or were you with others during the interrogations?

14:44

-

Other detainees?

14:48

-

Other detainees.

14:49

-

No.

-

Always--

14:50

-

You were always by yourself.

-

Yeah.

14:51

Interviewer

And do they ever beat you or mistreat you

14:52

during the interrogations?

14:54

-

Many times.

14:56

That was the first time I ever got beaten.

14:57

The soldier is basically taking you to your interrogation,

14:59

you'd have the shackles on your feet,

15:03

but they wouldn't give you a chance to walk.

15:06

They'd basically drag you there

15:08

and you weren't allowed to look up,

15:10

although they'd put a hood over your head,

15:12

you still weren't allowed to look up.

15:14

They'd force your head down,

15:16

so you'd be in pain going to interrogation.

15:18

Then you'd be thrown onto the seat,

15:20

and they'd be holding you down,

15:22

although you're not gonna go anywhere.

15:26

Your hands and feet are shackled together.

15:27

They'd be holding you down in such a way

15:28

that they're causing pain.

15:30

Interviewer

And did it ever get worse?

15:34

Did they ever have dogs or were there other instances--

15:35

-

Not in Qandahar, no.

15:42

-

No?

And did you see anybody else get mistreated

15:44

while you were in Qandahar?

15:46

Did you notice?

15:47

-

There was, when we were in the camp outside,

15:49

they used to bring in new people.

15:51

And the way they used to grab 'em and throw 'em,

15:52

punch 'em and kick 'em about, you'd see that--

15:55

-

All the time?

15:58

-

All the time happening.

Interviewer

And did they ever ask you

16:00

different questions at the different interrogations?

16:02

Or was it the same kinds of questions again and again?

16:05

-

I think it was just like the same questions, really,

16:08

about Al-Qaeda, who do you know in the UK,

16:11

who sent you to Afghanistan, what did you come for.

16:14

Interviewer

And when they sent you to Guantanamo,

16:17

did they tell you at any time they're going

16:18

to take you somewhere else,

16:20

or did they just one--

16:21

-

No.

We were told, there was about two soldiers

16:23

that we used to talk to.

16:26

And they told us that they're gonna move us somewhere.

16:28

And one of them told us we was going to Alcatraz.

16:31

And the other one said, "You're going somewhere hot."

16:33

That's all we were told.

16:37

Interviewer

And what were you thinking during that time?

16:40

What was going through your mind

16:43

while all this was happening?

16:45

-

I didn't know what was going on,

16:48

'cause we didn't know we was going.

16:49

I just assumed that they're gonna take us to the US

16:50

and put us in a prison there and keep us there.

16:53

Interviewer

And you had no idea?

16:57

-

No.

16:58

Interviewer

And could you describe the plane ride

16:59

to Guantanamo, what that was like?

17:01

-

Basically, the day we were taken,

17:03

we moved from our cells in the night

17:08

into a separate part of the camp in Qandahar.

17:10

And we were woken up in the morning

17:13

and told to sit at the back of our cells.

17:16

We all had numbers.

17:19

And they were calling out two by two the numbers

17:20

of all the people.

17:22

So my number would come up,

17:24

and we'd be taken to the front of the cell,

17:26

and made to lie down on the floor.

17:29

Two soldiers would come and basically sit on us

17:30

and search us and shackle us up

17:34

and drag us to the processing place.

17:37

They made us sit down on these wooden benches,

17:41

chained our hands to the wooden bench so we couldn't move,

17:47

shaved our heads, shaved our beards off,

17:50

cut all our clothes off of us,

17:52

and then we were marched naked out of the tent

17:54

in front of I don't know how many soldiers were there.

17:59

'Cause that was basically done to humiliate us,

18:02

there was no other reason that they did that,

18:04

into another tent, and there was a guy with a camera there.

18:06

And we were naked when they were taking the photos.

18:13

We don't know if they were taking head shots

18:17

or full body shots of us.

18:18

And we were given the orange uniform and told to put it on.

18:20

And we put the uniform on.

18:26

Then we were marched out to that tent outside,

18:28

and then they put these mitts on our hands

18:32

and taped them up.

18:35

And what else?

18:37

They put goggles over our eyes so we couldn't see anything.

18:41

And then they put these hats on our heads,

18:45

which was probably to keep us warm,

18:48

'cause it was freezing there.

18:51

And then they put these denim jackets over us

18:52

and made us sit down on the floor for a really long time.

18:54

Then it was at night time when we were actually taken,

18:59

by groups, because they did that same thing,

19:06

putting the rope around our arms

19:08

and marching us in groups of I think about 10.

19:10

Then we were put onto the plane with our ears covered,

19:13

our mouth covered, our eyes covered.

19:19

So we didn't know what was going on, and put on the plane.

19:21

And about, I think it must've been about an hour

19:24

we were on the plane, and then it took off.

19:27

And that first journey was horrendous

19:30

because we were sitting on these wooden planks

19:34

and it was impossible to sit on there

19:36

for more than five minutes.

19:38

And we couldn't move,

19:40

'cause we were chained to the floor.

19:41

And it was causing us a lot of pain,

19:42

because we'd lost a lot of weight at that time.

19:44

And it was impossible to sit in one position for that long.

19:47

And we had nothing to lean back on,

19:51

so I had to sit constantly in one position

19:53

and not be able to move.

19:56

And I was in a lot of pain.

19:58

And I was shouting, "I'm in pain, I'm in pain."

20:01

And somebody came, took the mask off me

20:06

and put something in my mouth,

20:08

maybe some kind of medicine?

20:10

I don't know what it was.

20:13

After that I just felt really, really drowsy.

20:15

And after nightfall, I went to sleep,

20:18

but I could still feel the pain in my body.

20:23

Then that journey must have lasted about,

20:26

it felt like it was forever, but it was,

20:31

we landed somewhere,

20:33

it must've been about 10, 12 hours later.

20:34

We were taken off the plane, searched.

20:37

And it seemed like they took us off the plane,

20:42

they might have put us onto a different plane,

20:47

or they brought us back onto the same plane,

20:49

and that must've took about two or three hours.

20:53

And then we were just waiting there,

20:57

and where we landed, it was really hot.

21:01

That's the only thing that I remember about that place,

21:04

'cause they kept our faces covered

21:07

so we couldn't see anything.

21:09

Then we were put back onto the second plane.

21:11

And that's the one that took us to Guantanamo.

21:13

Interviewer

Could you use the bathroom

21:16

while you were on either plane?

21:17

Were you allowed to use the bathroom?

21:18

-

Yeah, I think we were.

21:23

Interpreter

And did you notice when...

21:25

Did that rope around your arm

21:28

ever cause any problems for you?

21:30

-

Not the rope around my arm, but the handcuffs did,

21:33

'cause I didn't, for about six months

21:37

while I was in Guantanamo,

21:39

I didn't have no feeling in my left hand.

21:40

Interviewer

Did you ever report that?

21:42

Shafiq

Yeah, I did.

21:44

Interviewer

Did a doctor ever see that?

21:45

-

No, not really.

21:47

Interviewer

They never sent a doctor?

21:49

-

But the shackles had cut my ankle open,

21:50

and it wasn't healing properly.

21:54

But they used to come and put a bandage on that

21:58

and check that, but there was numerous occasions

22:01

that they took me in to get X-rayed,

22:04

and I used to ask 'em why they're doing it,

22:07

but they just gave me blank looks.

22:09

They'd never actually communicate with us

22:11

of why they're X-raying you

22:13

and why they're taking, they took about, when we got there,

22:16

they took about 12 bottles of blood out of us.

22:22

Interviewer

When you first arrived in Guantanamo?

22:27

-

When we first arrived there.

22:28

And why they did it, we don't know,

22:29

because they'd never answer our questions.

22:31

Interviewer

Did you ever see a doctor

22:34

in Qandahar before you came to Guantanamo?

22:36

-

No.

22:39

-

No?

Interviewer

So could you describe the first few weeks

22:41

when you came to Guantanamo, what that was like,

22:44

and your first interrogation?

22:46

Do you remember that?

22:48

-

When we got there, it was just like,

22:51

we were put into this cages, and it was just like,

22:53

it was just strange.

22:57

We didn't know where we were or what was going on.

22:59

All you'd see is someone in orange in these cells,

23:01

and there was like, there must've been about 60 cells

23:03

in our block, all full of people.

23:08

And we weren't allowed to talk to anybody.

23:11

We were allowed to look at anyone.

23:13

If we did look at someone, we were taken out

23:14

of our cells, and our cells were searched.

23:16

We'd be thrown onto the gravel on the floor.

23:18

And two soldiers would be sitting on us so we can't move

23:21

and they'd come and search our cells.

23:24

We weren't allowed to do anything.

23:26

We weren't allowed to stand up in our cells.

23:28

It just, it felt like hell, where we'd been brought.

23:29

And the first time I was interrogated was,

23:34

I think it was within 48 hours of arriving there.

23:36

And that was by the British.

23:38

Interviewer

Wait, the British interrogated you?

23:42

-

Yeah, the first time.

23:44

-

The British diplomat?

23:45

-

MI5.

Interviewer

MI5?

23:48

How do you know it was MI5?

23:49

-

They told us that they were MI5 officials.

23:49

Interviewer

Were Americans with them

23:52

when they interrogated?

23:53

-

There was...

Yeah, there was.

23:56

There was one guy sitting with the American uniform on

23:57

with them, there's one guy from the British embassy,

24:01

and there's, I think there might have been two guys

24:04

who were from MI5, and there's a lot

24:06

of people sitting behind me who I didn't get a look at,

24:09

but I think they were military as well.

24:12

Interviewer

So that was your first interrogation?

24:15

-

Yeah.

24:16

Interviewer

Could you describe what happened there?

24:17

-

Basically, it went on for quite a while.

24:19

They were asking me everything that happened.

24:21

I was explaining to them, and he was asking me

24:23

how we ended up in Afghanistan,

24:28

about the same questions that I've been asked before,

24:29

what had happened.

24:32

That was by the MI5, but the British embassy guy

24:34

who was asking me about my family, of my address,

24:36

phone numbers, people that I could contact

24:39

to confirm that I was British.

24:41

Then I answered all the questions MI5 asked me,

24:45

and he turned around and said,

24:49

"Everything that you've told me is a lie."

24:51

Interviewer

The diplomat said that?

24:53

-

No, the MI5 guy.

24:53

-

MI5.

-

And he says, "You better start telling me the truth,

24:55

or you're gonna be spending the rest of your life here."

24:59

And that's when you start getting scared.

25:03

To hear it from Americans is a different thing.

25:05

But to hear it from your own countrypeople who were there,

25:07

who is supposed to be there to help you,

25:10

it just like starts sinking in

25:12

that I'm gonna be spending a long time here.

25:15

And I told him, "Everything I told you is the truth.

25:17

I've got, there's nothing else I can tell you."

25:21

And he said to me, "I'm gonna be here all day today.

25:24

If you decide to change your mind, just ask for me."

25:26

I said, "There's no point.

25:32

You might as well leave now,

25:32

'cause I ain't got nothing else to say to you,

25:33

'cause I've told you the truth."

25:35

And that was it.

25:38

That that was the first interrogation that I went to.

25:40

Interviewer

And did you ask them if they could tell you

25:43

or if they could help you at all?

25:46

Did you say anything to them?

25:47

-

I asked him what was going on there.

25:49

The reply that they used to give was,

25:50

every time they used to come in is,

25:52

"We don't know what's going on,"

25:54

even though the soldiers used to tell us

25:55

that we've seen you on TV,

25:59

we've heard about you in the news.

26:00

And we'd ask the MI5 guys,

26:03

and he said, "We don't know nothing.

26:05

We've never seen you on TV.

26:06

We don't know even what's happening about your case."

26:08

Which is, you'd know they were blatantly lying.

26:10

But that's what they'd say to us every time.

26:14

Interviewer

Why would the Americans

26:18

say they saw you on TV?

26:19

-

It was the soldiers that we,

26:21

after a while, seeing the same soldiers,

26:22

you start getting on with them, some of them,

26:24

'cause they'd be walking the blocks

26:26

and find out that you speak English.

26:29

And I think, because we were British,

26:31

they've probably seen us on the news

26:35

and realized who we were.

26:36

-

Oh.

26:37

-

'Cause they used

to get a briefing about detainees

26:39

before they came to Guantanamo,

26:40

and they were specifically the Western detainees,

26:43

they used to get briefed on quite a lot.

26:46

Why, I don't know.

26:49

Before they even got to Guantanamo,

26:51

they knew who we were.

26:53

Interviewer

And so did the interrogation change

26:55

over time, the next interrogation and the following one,

26:58

was it also with MI5, or with Americans?

27:01

So how did that develop?

27:05

-

Most of them were with different agencies,

27:06

American agencies.

27:09

-

But not British?

-

And British, yeah, every six months they used

27:12

to come to see us, or if something happened,

27:14

they'd fly over to specifically see people.

27:16

It wasn't just the British that they were interrogating.

27:21

They were interrogating a lot of people in Guantanamo.

27:24

-

They were at the time?

27:27

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

How do you know that?

27:29

-

Because we were told by detainees

27:30

who had nothing to do with the UK

27:31

that were getting interrogated.

27:35

Most of the French were interrogated by the British as well.

27:37

Interviewer

And if you refused

27:42

to give them the information they wanted,

27:43

or if you couldn't give them the information they wanted,

27:45

did they punish you at all for that?

27:46

-

We used to get punished all the time.

27:50

We don't know what it came from.

27:51

It could have been from the British.

27:52

We were told not to give them this.

27:54

We used to get,

27:56

every time the British officials came,

27:58

they were given letters by our families,

28:01

from what my brother has told me since we've been back.

28:04

But we hardly ever received anything from them.

28:07

It's probably 'cause when they start the interrogation,

28:11

we couldn't give them the information they wanted.

28:13

And we used to be angry with them

28:15

that they're not doing anything,

28:16

and you refuse to cooperate.

28:17

Say, if you're not gonna help me

28:19

why should I help you in any way?

28:20

I think because of that, they refused to give us any news

28:24

about what's happening to our families here.

28:27

Interviewer

And how did they punish you otherwise?

28:29

What happened?

28:32

-

They'd be put into solitary confinement,

28:34

refused things that we're supposed to have in our cells,

28:38

they'd be taken away, and the only time we could have them

28:42

is if our interrogators allow us to have them.

28:46

Interviewer

Could you describe why they would put you

28:50

in punishment block?

28:53

Was there any reasons for it or do you,

28:54

and what happened that caused it,

28:56

and how it was in the punishment block?

28:58

-

They'd put you in for minor reasons

29:01

that they found something in your cell.

29:04

You save, like they'd find a spoon in your cell,

29:06

which it'd be impossible to keep something

29:10

like that in your cell anyway,

29:13

'cause they was constantly searching it.

29:14

They'd say, they'd come out with things that we haven't done

29:16

just to put us in isolation.

29:20

There's no win-win situation for us in Guantanamo.

29:22

We couldn't do anything.

29:27

That we say, "Oh, we didn't do this."

29:29

And they'd say, "Yeah, it's done,

29:31

that so and so soldier has wrote this in the book,

29:32

and so you must have done it.

29:35

What reason has he to lie?"

29:36

Interviewer

And why do you think they did that?

29:40

-

Don't know.

29:42

It wasn't just they used to do it to us.

29:43

They used to do to a lot of people there.

29:45

So you'd be constantly scared.

29:46

When your cell's getting searched, what's gonna happen?

29:49

Interviewer

And could you describe how it was

29:53

in the punishment block?

29:55

What that was like?

29:56

-

It was solitary confinement, just a metal cell,

29:58

which was...

30:01

During the day, it'd be really, really hot in there.

30:02

It'd be really hard to breathe.

30:05

And at night, 'cause they used to have AC in their cells,

30:07

they used to put the AC on at night,

30:11

although it'd be cold anyway, it'd be freezing with that on,

30:12

just to punish us, they'd do that.

30:16

And that used to end up making you really ill.

30:18

And the people that were already ill

30:22

and being in isolation would make them a lot worse.

30:24

Interviewer

How many times did you go to isolation?

30:30

-

I think it was three different occasions.

30:33

The last time I was taken there was for three months.

30:36

Interviewer

Do you know why?

30:40

-

Yeah, basically, they said that they found a video

30:41

of me and my other two friends in a place,

30:45

I forgot the name of it, in Afghanistan in 2000,

30:51

that we were at a rally with Osama bin Laden.

30:58

And that was the reason that they threw us into isolation.

31:03

And I told them, "If you contact the British,

31:07

they can confirm that we were in the UK.

31:08

I never left the country."

31:10

But all of that, it took three months for them to do.

31:13

So we spent three months in isolation for no reason.

31:17

They told the whole camp, the soldiers in the camp,

31:21

that we were hardcore Al-Qaeda terrorists,

31:26

'cause there was soldiers that used to come up to us

31:29

and say, "We've caught you.

31:31

You thought you got away with it, but we've caught you."

31:33

And after three months, a British came to see us

31:36

and told us that according to our records,

31:39

the video that was actually shown,

31:44

he said the date on there was the first

31:45

of the eighth, 2000.

31:47

They didn't know if that was 8th of January

31:50

or the 1st of August, but it didn't make any difference.

31:53

'Cause I was at university at that time.

31:56

And I was working.

31:59

And so I had a alibi for both dates.

32:01

And so did my two friends there,

32:04

'cause they were in full time work.

32:05

But they weren't prepared to listen to that.

32:07

And the British came and said,

32:09

"According to our records, they were in the UK.

32:10

But you're going to take into consideration

32:14

that they might've traveled on false passports."

32:17

This is what the British said to them.

32:21

So--

32:23

-

How do you know that?

-

'Cause our interrogator,

32:25

it accidentally slipped out of his mouth

32:26

that that's what they said.

32:27

And well, then we were taken out of isolation.

32:31

Interviewer

Who were the other two when you say we?

32:36

-

It's Asif Iqbal and Ruhal Ahmed.

32:38

Interviewer

And were you close to them in the,

32:42

could you talk to them while you were in isolation?

32:44

-

No, not in isolation,

32:46

'cause we were kept separate from each other.

32:48

There was two blocks in isolation.

32:49

I think they were in one block

32:51

and I was put in a separate block.

32:54

Interviewer

So for three months you spoke

32:56

to no one except the interrogator?

32:57

So could you speak to people?

32:59

-

You could speak to people in the solitary block,

33:01

but it was like shouting to them,

33:03

and there's only a certain amount you can talk

33:06

while shouting.

33:08

Interviewer

And how did you manage that?

33:10

How did you cope?

33:12

Was it hard, or--

33:13

-

It was difficult,

because you're in that cell on your own.

33:15

You've got four metal walls to look at

33:17

and you just, it makes you go crazy in there.

33:20

Interviewer

What kept you from not going crazy?

33:26

-

I don't know.

33:27

I can't say what kept me, but it was just probably knowing

33:29

that I haven't done anything wrong.

33:34

And one day, if justice prevails,

33:37

I will be released from here.

33:40

That was the only thing.

33:41

The only thing we had in our cells was our Qurans,

33:43

and just like reading them constantly

33:46

just to keep your mind off what's going on around you.

33:47

That was the only thing that just kept us sane, really.

33:51

Interviewer

And when you were in your,

33:56

you started in Camp X-Ray?

33:59

And how long were you at Camp X-Ray,

34:01

and were you moved to another camp?

34:05

-

We was in Camp X-Ray for about three months,

34:06

then we were moved to Camp Delta after that.

34:10

Interviewer

And how was that compared to X-Ray?

34:14

-

X-Ray?

34:16

We had...

34:20

To go to the toilet, we had a bucket in our cells.

34:22

But you could communicate

34:25

with a lot more people in Camp X-Ray,

34:27

'cause you could see them clearly.

34:29

In Camp Delta, we had a sink and a toilet in our cells,

34:31

which made it better for us.

34:34

But there was limited amount

34:36

of people you could communicate with,

34:37

'cause the mesh was so small.

34:39

There's only a certain amount of people

34:41

that you could see until it starts going blurry.

34:42

And you can't really see the people

34:46

that you're talking to.

34:47

You can hear their voices, but you can't see them.

34:49

But at Camp X-Ray, it was like quite big mesh,

34:51

so you could see lot of people around you.

34:53

Interviewer

So is that how you communicated

34:56

with people, pretty much by just yelling to them or--

34:58

-

Yeah.

35:02

The person next to you and the person next to him,

35:03

you could see clearly and you could talk to them,

35:06

but after that it's impossible to see them.

35:08

Interviewer

And how did you communicate with them?

35:14

What languages did you use?

35:16

-

Well, when I was moved to Camp Delta,

35:18

there was two British guys next to me.

35:20

So we used to speak English.

35:22

And I think there was a Pakistani guy in front of us,

35:24

so I speak to him in Urdu.

35:27

Interviewer

Did you ever see any people go

35:33

on hunger strikes while you were there?

35:35

-

Yeah, numerous occasions.

35:38

Interviewer

Could you describe the first one you saw

35:39

and--

35:43

-

It was in Camp X-Ray,

and I think he was Syrian national.

35:45

I can't remember his name, but he was on camp,

35:47

he was on a hunger strike as soon as he got there.

35:50

Yeah.

35:53

-

As soon as he got there?

Do you know why?

35:54

-

Because he,

35:56

I think, because he didn't know why he was there

35:59

and no one was communicating with him, as I said.

36:03

He just made his mind up straight there and then,

36:07

if you're not going to tell me anything why I'm here,

36:08

that he just went on a hunger strike straightaway.

36:11

Interviewer

And what happened to him?

36:13

Do you know?

36:14

-

Once we got moved to Camp Delta, everyone got separated.

36:16

So I don't know what happened to him.

36:19

Interviewer

Did you see other people

36:21

go on hunger strike at Camp X-Ray?

36:22

-

Yeah, in Camp Delta, a few.

36:24

Interviewer

Did you ever?

36:26

-

No.

36:28

Interviewer

And did you ever see any people try

36:28

to commit suicide?

36:32

-

I am.

I saw one Saudi national who was right,

36:34

in the cell right in front of me

36:37

that he tried to commit suicide.

36:39

-

Shall we take a break?

36:43

-

Zack, Zack.

Sorry about that.

36:51

Interviewer

Are we on?

37:00

Could you describe what you saw

37:02

when he tried to commit suicide?

37:03

-

Basically, we were praying at the time,

37:07

when he tried to commit suicide.

37:09

He just got onto his sink in his cell,

37:10

and tied his sheet into the mesh

37:14

and just jumped off.

37:18

And I saw it straightaway what he was doing.

37:20

And I started shouting at the soldiers.

37:23

They came within seconds and took him down.

37:26

But that was happening a lot there.

37:30

Interviewer

You saw that a lot?

37:34

-

Yeah.

37:36

Interviewer

And did you,

37:37

what did the other prisoners do?

37:38

Did they--

37:41

-

Everyone, so as soon as it happened,

37:42

they started shouting for the soldiers

37:43

and they'd come running and take him down.

37:45

Interviewer

And where were they taken away then,

37:46

the people who committed suicide?

37:48

-

They were taken into the medical block.

37:50

They'd keep them there for a few days,

37:53

then bring them back.

37:54

Interviewer

Were you ever, did you ever see doctors?

37:57

Did you ever get taken to the medical block?

38:00

-

Yeah, on a few occasions, yeah.

38:02

Interviewer

Could you describe what that was like?

38:04

-

It was strange,

38:09

'cause they take you into the medical block

38:10

and take blood from you, check you over,

38:13

but they'd not communicate with you.

38:18

Interviewer

They wouldn't talk?

38:21

-

No, they wouldn't look at you or talk to you.

38:22

If you asked them any questions,

38:24

they were just like, "Nobody's spoken,

38:25

nobody heard anything."

38:28

Interviewer

And did you,

38:31

why did they take you to the medical block?

38:31

-

I don't know, no idea.

38:33

I was taken... one occasion,

38:35

I was complaining about pains in my knees,

38:37

and they took me out there to get that checked.

38:40

But there was, I was taken about six or seven times

38:44

to have my chest X-rayed, but they never told me why.

38:49

I was taken out of the camp once

38:52

to have a scan done, a full body scan,

38:54

for I don't know where they took me,

38:57

'cause they put me in the back of those--

38:59

-

A vehicle?

39:03

-

A vehicle

and took me somewhere.

39:05

And I had a scan done and they brought me back,

39:07

and then they never told me why they did it.

39:10

Interviewer

Do you know other people

39:14

who had to see doctors

39:16

and do you know, what their experiences were like?

39:19

-

I think there was like, Omar, the Canadian,

39:22

'cause he'd been shot, he was in a lot of pain.

39:27

And he used to be taken to medical.

39:30

But he was in that situation

39:34

where his interrogators had said,

39:36

"If he doesn't give us information,

39:39

we're not going to give him any medical treatment."

39:43

So he'd be taken to medical,

39:46

but I don't think they used to do anything.

39:48

They would just make a log of what's wrong with him,

39:50

if he's getting worse or anything.

39:53

But they'd refuse to give him any medical treatment,

39:55

because his interrogators said not to give him any.

39:57

Interviewer

Did he tell you this?

40:04

-

Yeah, this is what he told us.

40:05

Interviewer

That they weren't going to treat him

40:07

unless he told them--

40:08

-

This is what his interrogator was saying to us.

40:10

"Communicate with us, give us information that we need,

40:12

then we will give you whatever you need."

40:16

Interviewer

And how old was Omar at the time?

40:19

-

I think he was about,

40:22

I think he was about 15, 16 at the time.

40:23

Interviewer

Did he tell you anything else

40:27

about how he was treated?

40:29

-

Being taken to interrogation at ridiculous times

40:32

in the middle of the night, woken up and taken there,

40:36

put in interrogation rooms when nobody's there to see him,

40:39

just sitting there for hours and hours

40:43

and then being brought back.

40:44

Interviewer

Did that ever happen to you?

40:47

-

Yeah, that happened to us.

40:48

And all that I was telling you before

40:48

about the incident, about the video

40:52

of us being in Afghanistan,

40:54

that's what they used to do to us.

40:56

They're basically short shackle us to the floor,

40:57

our hands between our ankles,

41:00

so we were in like a squatting position,

41:03

and leave us there for hours.

41:05

Interviewer

Without food or water?

41:08

-

Yeah, without food or water.

41:09

And on some occasions, they'd be playing really loud music

41:10

and which is deafening,

41:14

and just leave it in the room for hours.

41:16

Interviewer

And what would happen then?

41:20

-

We were put in the room for hours.

41:22

Then somebody come, unshackle us,

41:24

and take us back to our cells.

41:28

And you'd be thinking, what the hell just happened?

41:29

'Cause there's no light in that room.

41:32

You don't realize how long you've been in there for.

41:36

Interviewer

And would that happen again the next day or?

41:39

-

Not next day, after a few days it happened again.

41:42

It happened a few times.

41:45

And then, first they started by just putting us on a chair

41:46

and just leaving us in the room,

41:51

and just for hours and hours,

41:54

just sitting there thinking that somebody's coming

41:55

and you're just waiting for them,

41:57

waiting and waiting and waiting.

41:59

Then you were taken back, put back into your cell.

42:01

Then after that, they started short shackling us.

42:04

Interviewer

Did you ever see, besides Omar,

42:08

other people who were mistreated at Guantanamo?

42:11

-

There was a lot of Arabs who were in the same situation.

42:16

They'd be taken.

42:19

This one guy, he every, I think it was 15 minutes

42:20

throughout the day, he'd be moved from one cell to another,

42:28

one cell to another, and he'd never get any sleep.

42:32

And they were doing that for weeks and weeks to him.

42:37

Interviewer

How do you know that?

42:40

-

Because one of the cells that they used to move him

42:42

to all the time was right opposite where we were.

42:44

You'd see him a couple of hours,

42:47

he'd be taken from that cell, moved around constantly,

42:51

and come back and say, "What's happened?"

42:53

He'd say, "Oh, every 15 minutes they moved me

42:55

from this cell to that cell, from this cell to that cell."

42:58

Interviewer

Did he know why they were doing that?

43:01

-

No, 'cause then he'd be taken to interrogation.

43:03

They would be asking him those same questions over,

43:06

and he'd say, "I can't give you the answers

43:08

because I don't want what's going on."

43:10

Then they'd carry on during it to him.

43:11

And there's a few people that that was happening to.

43:12

Interviewer

You saw that happen to other people?

43:17

-

Yeah.

43:18

Interviewer

Did you see any people earthed,

43:19

where the force came in to--

43:23

-

Yeah, I've seen that on numerous occasions.

43:25

Interviewer

Could you describe?

43:27

-

There was one Saudi in Camp X-Ray.

43:28

His name was Juma.

43:30

He's been released now.

43:32

He was,

43:34

they said that he was not mentally stable,

43:37

'cause there was psych doctors

43:39

that used to come and see him.

43:42

And he used to shout all the time.

43:45

And he was shouting at a female soldier once,

43:49

and the block sergeant called the earth team

43:51

to basically take him out in his cell.

43:58

And what happens,

44:01

if you're standing up in your cell,

44:02

they'll come in and push you to the floor and shackle you.

44:03

But the procedure is, if you don't want that to happen,

44:06

you lie down on the floor,

44:09

put your hands like that behind your head,

44:11

and they won't do anything to you.

44:13

And--

44:16

(beeping)

Interviewer

Shall we take a break,

44:21

and wait for that?

44:22

-

Yeah.

-

I don't know what the--

44:24

Woman

Okay, back.

44:26

Interviewer

So he was a little crazy?

44:27

They thought he was?

44:29

-

Yeah.

44:31

-

So you'd,

so if you lied down--

44:35

-

If you lie,

but it's a procedure.

44:37

If you lie down and put your hands behind your head,

44:38

they'll walk into your cell,

44:40

shackle you up and take you away.

44:41

Then after a few hours bring you back.

44:45

I think they used to take him to interrogation

44:47

and then bring them back.

44:50

But when this happened, he was already lying on the floor

44:51

with his hands behind his head.

44:54

But on the earth team, there's usually five guys.

44:56

On this one, I think there was about eight of them.

45:00

(beeping)

45:02

-

It's the, it's the--

45:07

-

It hasn't gone off.

It's gonna go off again.

45:10

-

It's gonna go off again?

-

Yeah, he's got the keys, sorry about that.

45:19

-

It's all right.

45:22

-

We're back on.

Interviewer

So in this case,

45:25

you said eight people--

45:26

-

Yeah, there was eight people on the earth team

45:27

that came to earth him.

45:29

And the first guy, soon as they opened his cell,

45:31

ran in, and with his knees just dropped onto his back.

45:34

And this guy was about 6'4",

45:39

and he must've been about 250 pound.

45:43

And all I heard from Juma was just let out a scream

45:47

and the whole of our block just went quiet,

45:52

because we thought, that guy has killed him.

45:55

The way he's just dropped on the ground,

45:58

don't forget, they've got the knee pads on as well.

45:59

You know those, when you have the riot gear,

46:03

you have those pads to protect your legs?

46:04

That's what he was wearing when he did the drop on him.

46:06

And then the next ones that went in,

46:09

was holding him down, punching him,

46:12

and the sergeant who was in charge that day told the female,

46:15

"You're gonna go in that cell and what are you gonna do?"

46:20

And she's like, you could see she was a bit afraid

46:24

of what's going on in there.

46:27

And he shouted at her, "You're gonna go in that cell

46:28

and you're going to kick him in the stomach."

46:30

And what we didn't know at the time,

46:33

Juma, he used to be a really big guy,

46:35

and he had his stomach stapled.

46:38

So he's got some metal rods in his stomach.

46:41

So she was kicking him in the stomach and he was screaming.

46:43

Then about five minutes later,

46:47

they picked him up and took him, and also his face.

46:49

It was just covered in blood.

46:54

And we thought, what was going on?

46:55

This was being filmed as well on a camcorder at the time.

46:59

And there's Asif, a British guy, there's Abbas and me.

47:03

We were shouting at the guy, saying,

47:07

"What's going on?

47:10

What you're doing?

47:11

Why are you filming this way, to help him?

47:11

Where's our human rights?

47:15

Yeah, you're treating him like an animal."

47:16

And the guy, instead of filming Juma,

47:18

he brings it and starts filming us shouting at him.

47:20

Then he was taken out of his cell

47:24

and moved to a different place.

47:27

And that was about three days

47:29

before we got moved to Camp Delta.

47:31

And the day we got moved to Camp Delta,

47:36

the Red Cross came into our blocks

47:38

and we told them what had happened.

47:40

And they said, "Okay, we'll go and find out."

47:42

They came back a day later and said when the earth team came

47:46

into his cell, he was provoking them.

47:50

And that's why they beat him up.

47:52

And we knew that this had not happened,

47:54

and it had been filmed as well.

47:56

And we told him that this had been filmed.

47:58

And they said, "No, this is what I've been told,

47:59

and this is what we have to go by."

48:02

That's why a lot of the Red Cross, in the beginning,

48:04

were not trusted by anybody.

48:08

Interviewer

Do you remember,

48:12

you said this is a few days before you moved to Camp Delta.

48:13

So was that in April or in May of 2002,

48:16

or do you know when you were moved?

48:19

-

I think we were moved on the 1st of May.

48:21

Interviewer

So it was late April that this happened?

48:24

-

Yeah, yeah.

48:27

Interviewer

And did you ever hear about him again?

48:27

-

In Camp Delta, where we were moved,

48:29

I was in cell number two.

48:35

Asif, the other British guy, he was in cell number three.

48:37

Cell number four was empty.

48:40

And about four days later,

48:42

that guy was moved into cell number four.

48:44

And he still had the same clothes on,

48:46

he still had the bruise on his face,

48:48

and his clothes were covered in blood.

48:50

And the sergeant who was filming it came onto our block

48:53

and Juma said to him, "Can I have a change of clothes,

48:58

'cause my clothes are covered in blood,

49:01

and I want to change them."

49:03

And just because he said that,

49:07

he was taken out of his cell

49:08

and put into solitary confinement for a week.

49:09

And we thought, what's going on?

49:13

Why are they treating him like that for?

49:14

Interviewer

And was he put in a mental block too,

49:18

do you know?

49:20

-

There was a block, Delta, I think, which was later built.

49:22

And I think he spent some time in there.

49:27

Interviewer

And when he was brought back,

49:31

he was still near you, so you could still see how he--

49:32

-

Yeah.

49:36

-

Did he get earthed again?

Did you see any?

49:37

-

Not that I can remember,

49:39

but when we got released in March two--

49:41

-

2000?

49:47

-

March 2004.

He was in the isolation block that we were in.

49:49

In his block, he didn't have a sink or a bunk to sleep on.

49:54

So they said that he could self harm himself on the sink.

49:58

So in his cell, he didn't have a sink.

50:03

Interviewer

Could we talk a little about the Red Cross?

50:08

How it was at the beginning with the Red Cross

50:11

and how that changed?

50:14

-

Well, in the beginning, in Camp X-Ray

50:17

they were very helpful towards us.

50:18

They were the ones that actually told us

50:22

that we were in Cuba, in Guantanamo.

50:25

And they drew maps for us and told us exactly where we was.

50:29

And a little bit of history about it as well.

50:33

And they were really helpful towards us,

50:36

because in the beginning we weren't allowed to pray.

50:39

We weren't allowed to stand up in our cells,

50:40

but once they came, they brought Qurans for us.

50:42

And we were allowed to pray after that in our cells.

50:45

Interviewer

How much after you arrived did they come?

50:49

-

I think it was about two weeks after.

50:52

And they were very helpful.

50:55

But then they left, and after that we were moved

50:58

to Camp Delta, and a group came then.

51:02

And that group, it didn't seem like they were there

51:06

for our welfare.

51:11

It seemed like they were there to help the military

51:13

to get information out of us,

51:16

because there's a lot of,

51:17

I was taken on one occasion to interrogation

51:18

and they were asking, not about my welfare,

51:21

but about other people around me in my block.

51:24

And it seemed strange.

51:27

And I asked him, I said, "What,

51:28

why are you asking me these questions?"

51:30

That their reply to that was they just want

51:31

to get background information.

51:34

But it seemed like we were being interrogated by them,

51:36

and it happened to a lot of people.

51:39

And that's when a lot of us lost confidence in Red Cross

51:41

and stopped speaking to them altogether.

51:46

And that was for about a year and a half

51:48

that nobody really communicated with the Red Cross.

51:51

And after that, there was a group that came,

51:53

and they were very apologetic for the previous groups

51:56

and what they'd done.

51:59

And slowly, slowly, people started trusting them

52:01

and started talking to them again.

52:04

Interviewer

And was the American military ever

52:06

with the Red Cross when they interrogated you

52:10

about other people or was it just the Red Cross--

52:12

-

Just the Red Cross on their own.

52:15

Interviewer

And did they ever explain to you

52:17

why they would be asking you about other people?

52:20

-

They'd just say that they want

52:22

to get background information on them,

52:24

but they would be asking a lot of questions

52:25

about how did they end up in Afghanistan,

52:26

what's their background, or who do they know?

52:29

Did you ever meet them while you were in the UK?

52:33

Did you ever meet them in Afghanistan?

52:36

And you'd just be sitting there thinking, hang on.

52:39

I'm being interrogated.

52:42

Are you Red Cross or are you military?

52:43

Interviewer

When you said that a lot of people

52:46

then wouldn't talk to the Red Cross,

52:49

how did that happen?

52:50

Was there some conversation among the people there

52:52

in Guantanamo saying, we're all gonna refuse?

52:56

Was there--

52:58

-

No, I think the word got round that people were saying,

52:59

"Yeah, I was taken to interrogation

53:03

and they were asking me a lot of questions."

53:05

And then other persons say,

53:06

"Yeah, the same thing happened to me."

53:07

And I think it started spreading that this was happening

53:10

to a lot of people.

53:12

And I think it was just like individual's decision

53:13

to stop talking to the people.

53:16

They didn't, they weren't there for their welfare.

53:18

So they stopped talking to them.

53:20

Interviewer

Did you see other ways that individuals

53:22

resisted the military or resisted the officers

53:24

at Guantanamo?

53:29

Did you see other ways of resistance?

53:30

-

Resistance in--

53:34

-

Well, in different ways,

like refusing to talk to them

53:36

or refusing to eat or--

53:37

-

Refusing to eat, refusing to come out of their cells

53:39

when they were, when we had to go out for showers.

53:42

Interviewer

And what would happen if they refused

53:46

to come out?

53:48

-

The earth team would come in

53:49

and force them out of their cells.

53:49

There's one occasion where they decided

53:52

that nobody's allowed to have a Quran.

53:54

And we didn't want to give them back.

53:56

And nearly the whole camp was earthed,

53:59

just to have the Qurans taken out of their cells.

54:03

Interviewer

Do you know when that was?

54:06

-

I think it might be around the beginning of 2003.

54:10

Interviewer

And do you know why they wanted

54:16

to take away the--

54:17

-

No idea why they took 'em.

But the funny thing was,

54:20

a few weeks later, they wanted to put 'em back in.

54:21

And because what had happened when they took 'em out,

54:24

people refused to have 'em put back in their cells,

54:28

and the same thing happened.

54:31

They were earthed to have the Quran put back in the cell.

54:33

Interviewer

Were you earthed then too,

54:37

or did you, you didn't--

54:38

-

No, we wasn't earthed,

54:40

because the cells that,

54:42

I think they didn't have no Qurans in there at all,

54:43

but the block that we were moved to,

54:46

and I think they got to a stage

54:49

when they started earthing people,

54:51

to put Qurans in their cell,

54:53

they started taking them to interrogation,

54:54

and pretend that they'd been interrogated

54:56

and put a Quran in the cell,

54:58

instead of having them earthed.

55:00

Interviewer

Did you think

55:03

that because you spoke English,

55:04

you had an advantage at Guantanamo?

55:05

-

Yeah, we did have an advantage

55:08

'cause we spoke English, but it was very small.

55:10

Interviewer

What advantage?

55:13

-

We could communicate with the soldiers.

55:14

There was a very small minority of them

55:17

that would sympathize with what was happening.

55:19

There was one guy at the very first that actually,

55:22

he was in Camp X-Ray, and he said to me,

55:28

"What's happening to you is bad.

55:32

What happened in America is bad as well.

55:35

But two wrongs don't make a right.

55:38

And there's nothing I can do to help you here,

55:41

but just to let you know that there's some people

55:44

that sympathize with what's happening to you."

55:47

And there was one guy in Camp Delta,

55:50

he said to me that, "I'm really sorry

55:51

for what's happening to you, but there's nothing I can do.

55:54

If I do anything, I'll end up in the cell next to you.

55:58

But I apologize for what my country has done to you.

56:01

But I'm a soldier here and I have to follow rules."

56:04

Interviewer

So some of the guards were nice to you?

56:09

-

There's people that, when you were on the earth team,

56:11

you didn't have a choice to go on there.

56:14

And every time that someone got earthed, it was filmed.

56:19

So I think they were made to be aggressive.

56:22

If they weren't, they'd probably get punished for them.

56:26

And there's some people that were on the earth team,

56:28

after they had earthed someone,

56:30

they'd come back and apologize to them.

56:32

-

Really?

56:34

-

Yeah.

Though thought that was a very, very small minority of them.

56:36

Interviewer

Did you ever see guards give extra food to--

56:39

-

Oh yeah.

56:42

We used to get extra food out of the guards.

56:43

They used to go into their chow hall and get food

56:46

that we weren't allowed and bring it in for us.

56:50

Interviewer

And hope nobody sees it?

56:53

-

Yeah, 'cause if they saw it,

56:55

they'd be in serious trouble.

56:57

Girl

Can I just ask one question about the cameras

56:59

and taking pictures?

57:01

How much of it do you think was official military,

57:02

that was someone's job and it was being archived,

57:05

and how much of it do you think were snapshots,

57:07

like trophy shots, just soldiers with cameras?

57:09

-

I don't think it was trophy shots,

57:12

'cause the guy who would come in with a camera,

57:13

you'd never see him before,

57:16

and they'd be like, they wouldn't be block soldiers.

57:17

They'd be like officers that would come in.

57:22

So I think they might are keeping them for their records,

57:26

but the other thing is, when we asked to see the film

57:33

from the Red Cross of what happened to Juma,

57:38

it strangely had gone missing,

57:40

that it never existed as well.

57:42

So what the reason,

57:45

we don't know why they were filming it then.

57:47

Interviewer

Were you ever asked to spy

57:51

for the Americans, since you spoke English?

57:54

Did they ever ask you to do anything like that for them?

57:56

-

They'd ask us to get information of people

58:01

that were next to us in our cells.

58:04

Interviewer

How did they ask that,

58:07

and what did they say they would give you as a--

58:08

-

They'd make it like, they'd take you to interrogation

58:10

and be all nice with you and say,

58:11

"Oh, which cell are you in?"

58:13

Although they'd know, and say, "Oh."

58:16

Then they'd start looking through their papers.

58:18

"Oh, you're next to so and so person.

58:19

Does he ever speak to you?"

58:23

"Uh, yeah, occasionally.

58:24

What does he speak about?

58:26

Do you know anything about his family?"

58:29

Then they start slightly building up.

58:31

"All right, do you know any information?

58:32

How come he ended up in Guantanamo?"

58:34

And they say, "Oh, it'd be helpful,

58:36

'cause he's not speaking to us,

58:38

if you could give us any information about him."

58:40

It'd start off like that.

58:43

And there's, okay, before we got released,

58:44

they were saying that if we worked for them,

58:46

we'll get released within a week,

58:50

although we knew that we were gonna be out of Guantanamo

58:52

within seven days, that they'd play you against each other.

58:54

Interviewer

So you think because you spoke English,

59:01

then the interrogators tried to use you.

59:03

Is that what you would say?

59:06

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

And then the guards felt more comfortable

59:08

talking to you because you understood English then too?

59:10

The guards?

59:13

-

Some of them, yeah.

Some of them didn't feel comfortable

59:16

because we spoke English.

59:18

Interviewer

And they deliberately didn't want you

59:21

to hear their conversation.

59:23

Did you--

59:24

-

Yeah.

And you feel that.

59:26

And you just, it depended where they were from,

59:27

which group they were from.

59:29

'Cause those groups, the main one

59:32

that we used to get on with, they were from South Carolina.

59:36

And most of them we could communicate with

59:41

and they weren't harsh towards us.

59:44

But there was one group from Massachusetts.

59:48

Their job was to make our life hell.

59:53

Interviewer

How so?

59:57

-

'Cause every time they'd come on the block,

59:59

they'd cause a problem and just make everyone angry

1:00:01

and turn off the water, every day they used to come

1:00:05

on the block, so they don't have to give us any food.

1:00:07

They don't have to do anything.

1:00:10

All they can do is just sit outside

1:00:11

and carry on doing what they want.

1:00:13

Interviewer

How would they make a problem?

1:00:15

-

They'd go into someone's cell,

1:00:17

and throw the Quran on the floor.

1:00:20

Everyone on the block's gonna get angry.

1:00:22

They start banging in their cells,

1:00:24

and there'd be lockdown in the camp.

1:00:27

Now nothing can happen.

1:00:30

No one can go to interrogation,

1:00:31

no one could come out of their cells, nothing can happen.

1:00:32

So that would make their life easy.

1:00:35

And if they did take us out of our cells,

1:00:37

they used to manhandle us all badly.

1:00:39

They'd just grab us, chuck us on the floor,

1:00:41

grab our heads and just, the mesh, push it against the mesh

1:00:44

and just hold us there.

1:00:48

And we used to, every time we used to see that group,

1:00:49

we used to just dread anything happening,

1:00:52

'cause we knew it was gonna be hell for the 12 hours

1:00:56

that they were gonna be there.

1:00:59

They're gonna just make hell for us.

1:01:00

Interviewer

And when was that?

1:01:02

They were there, I think around,

1:01:04

I think end of 2002, beginning of 2003,

1:01:13

for about six or seven months.

1:01:16

It was around the time when Miller,

1:01:18

Geoffrey Miller came to Guantanamo.

1:01:21

Interviewer

You saw him or had you not?

1:01:24

-

Yeah.

1:01:26

-

You saw him?

-

I've seen him on about four different occasions.

1:01:27

Interviewer

Why, how did that happen?

1:01:29

-

From what we found out, he, the rules of the camp,

1:01:32

when he came to Guantanamo, he changed everything

1:01:35

and just made it a lot worse for us.

1:01:37

He brought in this level thing in the cell,

1:01:39

what you are allowed to have in your cell,

1:01:44

if you were allowed to come out of your cell

1:01:46

and go for showers,

1:01:47

the level one, two, three, and four,

1:01:49

he brought that in.

1:01:51

And that was all governed by the interrogation.

1:01:52

If you weren't communicating with the interrogators,

1:01:55

that would be what level you were,

1:01:58

and taking people for stupid reasons to isolation

1:02:01

and leaving them there for weeks,

1:02:06

'cause the maximum, before he came,

1:02:11

the maximum that they would keep you

1:02:13

in isolation was three days.

1:02:15

And after he came, it was just people there for months

1:02:17

and years, they've just been there in isolation,

1:02:20

since they've been in Guantanamo, they've been in isolation.

1:02:23

They haven't seen the outside or open camp.

1:02:26

Interviewer

And how did you know he made the difference?

1:02:30

How did you--

1:02:32

-

The soldiers were telling us.

1:02:33

Interviewer

The soldiers would tell?

1:02:34

-

Yeah.

1:02:36

Saying that since he's come,

1:02:37

he's the one who's changed everything.

1:02:38

Interviewer

And how did you see him?

1:02:40

-

He used to come on the blocks on occasion.

1:02:42

There'd be officials in civilian clothing.

1:02:46

They'd be walking the blocks,

1:02:48

and I don't know who they were.

1:02:49

I don't know if they were interrogators or who.

1:02:51

But he'd be walking the blocks with them.

1:02:54

Interviewer

And you would know him as--

1:02:55

-

Yeah, 'cause he used to have,

1:02:57

I think it was a one star general, I'm not sure.

1:03:00

I can't remember.

1:03:01

He used to have his star on the side of his name tag.

1:03:03

Interviewer

He had his nametag?

1:03:05

Most guards did not have their name.

1:03:06

-

No, they still have their name tags,

1:03:09

but they used to have black tape over it.

1:03:10

Interviewer

Right.

1:03:12

Did they ever tell you why they covered their names?

1:03:13

-

They were told to do it.

1:03:14

And one said that if we ever get released,

1:03:16

we'll track 'em down in America and come and kill 'em.

1:03:19

That's why they cover their names.

1:03:22

Interviewer

Did they believe that?

1:03:23

-

I think a lot of them did.

1:03:25

Interviewer

Did they ever ask you about that,

1:03:26

if that was true?

1:03:28

-

It depended who the soldiers were,

1:03:31

'cause you'd think, if he's scared, just play along with it.

1:03:34

Yeah, 'cause you're in a situation

1:03:39

where you can't do nothing.

1:03:40

You're never gonna see these guys again.

1:03:42

The chances of us ever coming to America

1:03:44

is very, very, very low.

1:03:47

Well, we're never gonna see him.

1:03:50

But I don't know if I would ever recognize 'em

1:03:51

if I did see 'em, but then you'd say,

1:03:53

you'd say things like,

1:03:57

"Oh, what would you do if you was in my situation?"

1:03:58

Yeah, "If I saw you outside, what would you do?"

1:04:01

And they'd say "Oh, that's true."

1:04:04

But the chances of us ever doing anything was very remote.

1:04:07

Interviewer

But you got the feeling

1:04:11

that some guards were afraid of you,

1:04:12

afraid of the detainees?

1:04:14

-

They were, because when they'd come

1:04:16

to take you out of your cell, they'd be shaking.

1:04:18

They'd be shaking so much that it'd make you nervous,

1:04:21

and you'd end up shaking as well.

1:04:26

You're thinking, why is this guy shaking?

1:04:29

I was shackled.

1:04:30

My feet and my hands are shackled together,

1:04:31

my fear are shackled together.

1:04:32

I'm not going to do anything.

1:04:34

But you feel that they are really scared,

1:04:35

because they were, I think the average age was about 23.

1:04:40

And when we were in Camp X-Ray, I think it was lower,

1:04:46

because they were really young,

1:04:50

there were like 17, 18 year old kids there.

1:04:51

Interviewer

So you were surprised to find out

1:04:56

that they were afraid of you?

1:05:00

-

Yeah, yeah.

It was just the fact that if they're scared,

1:05:01

they could do anything to you,

1:05:05

so you try not to make any sort of movement

1:05:08

or anything, because they're free.

1:05:12

They could knock you down and do whatever they want to.

1:05:14

Interviewer

When you went, did you ever get exercise?

1:05:22

And can you describe how the exercise was

1:05:24

when you were allowed in the exercise?

1:05:26

-

In Camp X-Ray, we were allowed out of our cells.

1:05:29

Those very first photos of the people sitting down,

1:05:34

we were allowed to go in that area

1:05:38

for about five minutes and walk around.

1:05:40

We had to keep our heads down

1:05:43

and our hands were still shackled together.

1:05:44

Interviewer

Could you look to the side?

1:05:47

-

No, you had to look down and walk around,

1:05:48

'cause there's like people on that side in their cells,

1:05:51

and that side, and you weren't allowed

1:05:53

to communicate with them.

1:05:54

So that was for about five minutes every week.

1:05:56

Interviewer

Once a week for five--

1:06:00

-

It was the situation.

1:06:02

They'd come into your cell, shackle you,

1:06:03

throw you on the floor, hold you down for about five minutes

1:06:05

while someone searched your cell,

1:06:08

and to go through that just to get five minutes of exercise,

1:06:10

it weren't worth it.

1:06:13

So hardly anyone used to go.

1:06:14

Interviewer

And did exercise improve over time?

1:06:17

-

We used to get, in Camp Delta, it was 15 minutes

1:06:22

for every twice a week.

1:06:28

Interviewer

Could you look to the side then?

1:06:30

-

Yeah, you could look then.

1:06:32

And they started giving us footballs in our cells,

1:06:34

but you're on your own in a,

1:06:36

I think it's probably about six by six meter cage,

1:06:38

and they give you a football in there.

1:06:44

You just end up kicking it against the cage, and that's it.

1:06:47

That's all you can do.

1:06:49

Interviewer

Did you ever have a football game

1:06:50

with other men in the prison?

1:06:51

-

No.

Only when they moved me to Camp Four for two weeks.

1:06:54

Interviewer

And why did they move you to Camp Four?

1:06:59

-

I have no idea.

1:07:01

That was just right before the video came out

1:07:02

that we had been in Afghanistan.

1:07:06

-

Oh, did they know?

1:07:09

-

I think it was just a show

as to why they did it.

1:07:12

They knew that in two weeks,

1:07:13

they're going to bring out this video,

1:07:14

'cause they said they're going to move me to Camp Four,

1:07:16

which is medium security,

1:07:20

which is like a large cell with 12 people in there.

1:07:22

And I refused to go.

1:07:26

-

Why?

1:07:28

-

I thought,

what's the difference in me going there or staying here?

1:07:29

I'd rather stay here.

1:07:32

'Cause there's only moving me on my own

1:07:33

into a group of people that I don't even know.

1:07:36

I said, "I might as well stay here next to people

1:07:38

that I could speak with."

1:07:40

But they refused to listen to me.

1:07:42

They took me to interrogation,

1:07:45

and they made me change out of my orange uniform

1:07:46

into a white uniform, and took me there.

1:07:49

And I was there for two weeks,

1:07:54

but the soldiers, for some reason,

1:07:57

they were just making my life hell there.

1:08:00

They wouldn't let me sleep.

1:08:02

There was a camera right in the block

1:08:03

that used to be on my bed all the time,

1:08:07

and they're like constantly being watched.

1:08:09

And I just felt like, this is hell in here for me,

1:08:12

although I'm open, I can walk around a lot more,

1:08:15

but it just felt like hell.

1:08:19

And they used to have these floodlights in the cell,

1:08:20

and it would be impossible to sleep.

1:08:22

So I ended up sleeping under my bunk

1:08:24

just to block the lights.

1:08:26

And they wouldn't let me do it.

1:08:28

They used to make me sleep on top.

1:08:29

And after about two weeks, they said

1:08:33

that you've got to go to interrogation.

1:08:39

And I wake up, got outside the block to go to interrogation,

1:08:42

and instead of two soldiers being there to take me,

1:08:47

there was about 30 people standing there.

1:08:51

Most of them were in civilian clothing,

1:08:55

and they were all looking at me.

1:08:58

The two soldiers guarding me,

1:09:00

they put me onto the back of this,

1:09:01

they were called the Gators,

1:09:03

the trucks that they used to use, and sat me on there.

1:09:05

And it was like a massive convoy of trucks right behind me.

1:09:09

They took me out the Camp Four, took me back to Camp Delta

1:09:14

into the level four block, which is basically,

1:09:20

you got nothing.

1:09:26

And they all walked me to my cell.

1:09:27

Everyone got off their trucks.

1:09:30

There's 30 people walking me into my cell.

1:09:32

And as soon as I get in the block,

1:09:35

the rest of the detainees, they're saying to me,

1:09:38

"What's going on?

1:09:39

What's with all these people?"

1:09:41

I don't know, I haven't got a clue what's going on.

1:09:42

They put me into the cell

1:09:43

and make me take off my white uniform

1:09:46

and give me an orange one.

1:09:50

And they stand there at my cell for about five minutes,

1:09:52

not saying anything to me, mumbling amongst themselves.

1:09:55

And I couldn't understand what they were saying.

1:09:58

And then they left.

1:10:00

As soon as they leave, everyone's like,

1:10:02

"Wow, what's going on here?

1:10:03

Where have you been?"

1:10:05

I said, "I was in Camp Four.

1:10:06

Now I've been moved back here."

1:10:07

They said, "Why'd they move you?"

1:10:09

I said, "I have no idea."

1:10:10

Then two days later, they moved me from that block

1:10:11

into solitary confinement.

1:10:15

That's when I started my three month stay in there.

1:10:17

Interviewer

Did you ever think you'd get out of solitary

1:10:21

or did you think you might be there forever?

1:10:23

-

What happens is, when you go into solitary,

1:10:29

they have a book telling you

1:10:32

how long you're staying in there.

1:10:33

Interviewer

They tell you

1:10:35

in advance how long you'll be there?

1:10:36

-

Well, if you ask them, they'll tell you.

1:10:37

I asked the guy.

1:10:39

He said, "We don't know,

1:10:40

because they haven't put a date down

1:10:43

how long you're gonna be in there for.

1:10:44

So I didn't know what, how long I was in there for.

1:10:46

And two days later, Asif and Rahul were moved

1:10:49

into there as well.

1:10:52

Interviewer

And then did you know

1:10:55

that you'd be there for three months?

1:10:57

-

No, I heard, when I was,

1:10:59

before I got moved into isolation,

1:11:01

when I was in the level four block,

1:11:02

I was sleeping, and there was a Pakistani guy next to me,

1:11:06

talking to one of the soldiers.

1:11:09

And he could speak broken English.

1:11:12

And he asked this guy, "Why have they brought me back here?"

1:11:14

And he said to him, all I heard, was what woke me up,

1:11:19

he said, "We got him."

1:11:21

I sat up and I got up and I started listening

1:11:24

to what he was saying, saying, "Yeah, we got him.

1:11:27

He's a member of Al-Qaeda."

1:11:28

I got up.

1:11:30

I said, "What are you talking about a member of Al-Qaeda?"

1:11:32

They said, "Our seniors have told us

1:11:34

that we've got footage of you

1:11:39

in Afghanistan prior to 9/11,

1:11:42

and you're a member of Al-Qaeda."

1:11:44

And I just thought nothing of it.

1:11:48

That's when I got moved to isolation.

1:11:52

A few days later, I was taken into interrogation

1:11:54

and they put the photos in front of me.

1:11:57

There's a group of people sitting there.

1:11:58

Everyone's face is blurred.

1:12:00

You can't make out who's who,

1:12:02

and there's three people sitting in a row

1:12:04

and they said, "These three are you.

1:12:07

You're in a rally prior to 9/11 in Afghanistan."

1:12:10

And hearing that, you just go in to shock.

1:12:15

Where have they got this from?

1:12:19

What are they trying to do?

1:12:20

Is this going to make me end up,

1:12:22

is this going to make the situation

1:12:25

where I'll be spending the rest of my life in Guantanamo?

1:12:27

All of these things start going through your head

1:12:31

and you start denying it.

1:12:32

And they say, "No, no, it's you.

1:12:34

There's no point denying it.

1:12:35

We know it's you."

1:12:37

And you're in this cell in the middle of nowhere.

1:12:40

You've got no communication with the outside world.

1:12:43

And what do you do?

1:12:46

Interviewer

Certainly, did you feel really hopeless?

1:12:50

Is that--

1:12:52

-

Yeah.

It was like hopeless.

1:12:54

They were saying, "Write to your family

1:12:55

and tell them to send information

1:12:58

to say that you were in the UK."

1:13:00

How can I do that in a cell?

1:13:07

It's gonna take you eight months to send the letter out.

1:13:09

And I don't know how long it's going to take

1:13:11

before you get a reply back.

1:13:12

And one of the things I said to 'em,

1:13:15

I said, "In democracy, don't we believe

1:13:16

in innocent until proven guilty?

1:13:19

And where is that now?

1:13:21

In your eyes, I'm guilty,

1:13:23

and you want me to prove my innocence."

1:13:25

Interviewer

What'd they say?

1:13:28

-

They never give you a reply.

1:13:29

If you say something like that to them,

1:13:32

they'll never give you a reply back.

1:13:33

And one occasion, it must've been a few weeks after that.

1:13:36

I was taken to interrogation and it was the FBI.

1:13:40

They made it clear that they were FBI sitting

1:13:44

in there interrogating me.

1:13:45

And at this time, I didn't know what the date was

1:13:49

on the--

1:13:53

-

The video.

-

Yeah.

1:13:56

'Cause they were giving me stills of the video,

1:13:57

and they'd purposely taped over the dates

1:13:58

so I wouldn't know, and the guy is showing me the photos.

1:14:01

And I said, "What's the date on here?"

1:14:04

He said, "We can't tell you that."

1:14:07

I said, "Then that seems

1:14:09

like you're trying to screw me over."

1:14:11

And he said, "Maybe we am."

1:14:13

And that was it.

1:14:16

I said, "I can't tell you the date.

1:14:18

I can't tell you where I was if I don't know the date."

1:14:20

And that was it, and I was taken back to my cell.

1:14:23

Interviewer

Were are you able to talk

1:14:26

to the other two men?

1:14:27

-

No.

Interviewer

So you had no idea what they were saying.

1:14:29

-

It's the same thing.

1:14:32

We found out later that they were going

1:14:33

through the exact same thing.

1:14:35

They were being shown the photos,

1:14:36

but the actual video, I was the only one

1:14:37

that saw the actual video of what--

1:14:39

Interviewer

And why did they show you the actual video?

1:14:41

-

I don't know.

1:14:44

They made a big deal out of showing me the video.

1:14:45

They said, "Oh, we've got these officials come over

1:14:48

from Washington, they've just flown specially over

1:14:50

to see you and show you this video."

1:14:53

Interviewer

And did those officials

1:14:56

from Washington speak to you?

1:14:57

-

Yeah, they were in the room.

1:14:59

Interviewer

Do you know who they were?

1:15:00

-

It was some female.

1:15:02

I have no idea who she was.

1:15:03

She goes, "Oh, we've come over to find out

1:15:06

and to prove that it's not you in the video.

1:15:11

Please, can you help us?"

1:15:14

It really just felt like, you're not here to help me.

1:15:16

You're here to help yourselves.

1:15:21

And they're just making a big deal out of it,

1:15:23

and showing me this video.

1:15:26

They're showing me the video, and that was the first time

1:15:27

I'd actually seen the date on there.

1:15:29

And I said to him, "Yeah, if you contact the UK,

1:15:31

they'll prove that I was in the UK during this time."

1:15:33

But they weren't prepared to believe that.

1:15:35

And the video, it seems like there's a group of people,

1:15:37

and that the one filming these people,

1:15:44

he's got a hidden camera on him,

1:15:47

because there's people coming up to him and hugging him,

1:15:49

and then you can't see anything, it just goes black.

1:15:51

So it must've been around here,

1:15:53

he had a camera hidden on him.

1:15:54

And it's really bad quality.

1:15:56

The only person you can make out is Osama bin Laden,

1:15:59

'cause he's standing at the front

1:16:02

and he's like towering above everyone else

1:16:04

and talking to the people.

1:16:08

So you know it's him.

1:16:10

Then it pans to the, there must've been

1:16:12

about 60, 70 people sitting on the floor,

1:16:14

and that's when they stopped the video.

1:16:17

And so show these three guys.

1:16:19

Everyone in that video is wearing a black turban,

1:16:22

so about half their face is covered.

1:16:25

And they're saying, "Yeah, these three people are you."

1:16:28

And it's just like, it was strange trying to explain to 'em,

1:16:32

that is not me.

1:16:36

-

Was MI5 there too?

-

No, not during that time.

1:16:39

They came, I think just before we were taken

1:16:42

out of isolation, that's when they came

1:16:44

and said that it's not,

1:16:46

according to our records, it's not them,

1:16:48

but they could have traveled on false passports.

1:16:50

Interviewer

And could you, if,

1:16:54

would you describe,

1:16:57

is there a situation which was the worst experience you had

1:16:58

in Guantanamo?

1:17:02

Would this be it or was there another thing

1:17:03

that you think was just really the worst?

1:17:05

If there's one thing that was?

1:17:07

-

I think during the whole experience,

1:17:11

it was just not knowing what's happening

1:17:13

is the worst experience.

1:17:15

But through it, this was the worst.

1:17:16

So we had been taken to isolation

1:17:18

and from isolation, taken to interrogation,

1:17:21

not being interrogated, short shackled to the floor,

1:17:24

having really loud music played,

1:17:27

and all these things going through your head,

1:17:29

what's happening?

1:17:32

What's gonna, why are they doing this to me?

1:17:33

I haven't done anything wrong.

1:17:36

And just like for hours and hours being

1:17:37

in that stressed position,

1:17:39

then just being taken out and put back into your cell.

1:17:41

And you just feel like, what the hell just happened?

1:17:44

But the worst is, they can beat you with the mental torture

1:17:47

of what they do to you is the worst.

1:17:54

It's just not knowing what's gonna happen,

1:17:56

if you're gonna see your family again

1:17:59

Because at one occasion, our families were threatened,

1:18:02

that if we didn't cooperate with the military,

1:18:05

that our families could be arrested

1:18:09

and deported back to our home countries,

1:18:10

and the Americans can tell them

1:18:13

to do whatever they want with them.

1:18:17

And you're in that vulnerable situation.

1:18:19

You believe everything that they say,

1:18:21

and they want information you can't give them,

1:18:24

'cause you don't know anything about it,

1:18:27

and they're threatening your families.

1:18:29

And just having that mental torture is just unbearable.

1:18:31

You get to a stage where a beating is a beating.

1:18:36

Physical torture, okay, it's bad, but your body can take it

1:18:39

more than it can take mental torture.

1:18:48

Mental torture, it's not yourself.

1:18:52

It's other people.

1:18:54

And you don't know what's happening.

1:18:56

So you just believe everything that they say,

1:18:57

and you're just, it's constantly worrying

1:19:01

about what's gonna happen.

1:19:02

Interviewer

And that never ends for you?

1:19:06

-

No.

1:19:08

Interviewer

How did you find out

1:19:11

that you were gonna be leaving Guantanamo?

1:19:13

How did that happen?

1:19:14

-

It was the Red Cross that actually told us

1:19:16

that we were gonna be leaving within the next few weeks.

1:19:18

I think it was--

1:19:23

-

Did you believe them?

-

In some ways, yes.

1:19:26

But we had to get confirmation from one of the block guards

1:19:29

that we used to get on with,

1:19:34

that we didn't tell him what was going on.

1:19:36

They said, "There's some news about the British detainees.

1:19:39

Can you go and find out for us?"

1:19:42

And the next day, we were called out.

1:19:45

I think it was Jack Straw, the foreign secretary.

1:19:48

He released the names of the detainees

1:19:50

who were gonna be released.

1:19:53

So this soldier didn't know what we knew.

1:19:56

And we told him to go find out,

1:19:59

and he confirmed exactly what they had said to us.

1:20:00

That's when we believed it was true.

1:20:03

Interviewer

And what happened then,

1:20:05

when you were told you were released?

1:20:07

Did anything change in your conditions?

1:20:09

-

Yeah, we were starting to go to interrogation,

1:20:13

not to be interrogated, but to watch movies,

1:20:17

and given a lot more food so we can start putting on weight.

1:20:21

We knew what was going on.

1:20:27

But we just played along with it.

1:20:29

We didn't mention it to the interrogators

1:20:31

who were taking us in that this is what was going on.

1:20:34

We knew that we were gonna get released.

1:20:38

We never mentioned it to 'em.

1:20:40

And the week before we actually got released,

1:20:42

they called us in and said to us that,

1:20:43

"If you work for us that you'll be out of here

1:20:46

within a week."

1:20:50

And we already knew the following Tuesday,

1:20:52

Monday or Tuesday, that we were gonna be out of there.

1:20:54

Interviewer

And when you were taken to the plane,

1:20:59

did you believe that the plane was gonna actually leave

1:21:01

for England, did you really think--

1:21:03

-

The night before we left,

1:21:06

there was two British police officers came

1:21:08

and told us what the procedure is gonna be for the next day.

1:21:11

Interviewer

What was the procedure?

1:21:17

-

They were telling us about what,

1:21:19

they're gonna put, we're gonna get transferred

1:21:21

into British custody, taken to the UK,

1:21:23

where we will be formally arrested,

1:21:26

And taken to Paddington Green Police Station,

1:21:29

where we'll be interrogated.

1:21:32

Interviewer

They told you this before you--

1:21:32

-

Yeah.

1:21:34

Interviewer

So you knew you weren't gonna be free,

1:21:35

that you were still--

1:21:37

-

Yeah.

Well, what we knew was we were going back to the UK.

1:21:38

And the only case that we knew about was John Walker Lindh,

1:21:41

when he got 20 years.

1:21:44

So we just expected the worst,

1:21:45

that we were gonna go up to the UK,

1:21:48

we were gonna get tried,

1:21:50

and we're gonna spend 20 years in prison.

1:21:51

We didn't care about that,

1:21:52

'cause we were gonna be back in the UK.

1:21:54

That wasn't--

1:21:56

-

It was worth it?

-

Yeah, that was worth it,

1:21:58

because we'd be in a proper prison there.

1:21:59

At least we'd have some communication with our families.

1:22:02

But that was like better than being in that situation.

1:22:04

So that's what we were expecting.

1:22:10

We got transferred, the night before,

1:22:13

I think it was three days before we were moved to isolation

1:22:16

and kept there for three days.

1:22:24

We were measured up for clothes.

1:22:26

Why they did it, I don't know,

1:22:29

'cause the clothes they gave us were too big anyway.

1:22:31

It was denim jeans and white T-shirt and a denim jacket.

1:22:34

About three o'clock in the morning, they woke us up.

1:22:41

They gave us our MREs, our meals.

1:22:44

Told us to change our clothes.

1:22:48

Basically taken out and put onto those school buses,

1:22:53

that's what they used to use for transporting people,

1:22:59

and taken to the plane.

1:23:02

Interviewer

And how were you treated on the plane?

1:23:03

-

They were being real nice with us.

1:23:07

-

They were?

1:23:08

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

Were you shackled on the plane?

1:23:10

-

No.

1:23:11

What happened was, when we were transferred

1:23:12

from American custody to British,

1:23:13

the guys, the soldier who took me, he said

1:23:17

"All right, I'm gonna take my cuffs off,

1:23:20

and you're gonna put yours on."

1:23:22

And the police officer said,

1:23:24

"That that won't be necessary.

1:23:25

We won't be putting our cuffs on them."

1:23:27

And his, the soldier's guy's face, it just dropped.

1:23:29

He said "What?"

1:23:32

And 'cause he was treating,

1:23:33

he was like manhandling me in the bus.

1:23:35

Yeah, so I just turned around,

1:23:39

I had a big grin on my face.

1:23:41

And I just laughed at him.

1:23:42

And he didn't like that.

1:23:43

But now we were in British custody.

1:23:44

I didn't care.

1:23:45

And we were with just two police officers

1:23:47

who marched us onto the plane.

1:23:52

We were sat down, and we had our separate seats.

1:23:53

And each of us had five police officers with us.

1:23:55

-

Each had five?

1:24:00

-

One was sitting here.

One was sitting there, and there was three sitting

1:24:02

in front of us.

1:24:03

And everyone had a camera that, I was sitting here.

1:24:05

There's two police officers there,

1:24:09

three in front of me,

1:24:10

there was a camera right in front of me there,

1:24:11

and there was one on the side.

1:24:13

So they were filming everything.

1:24:15

-

Were they British?

1:24:16

-

Yeah.

They were all British police officers.

1:24:17

-

The five people?

1:24:19

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

Were there American military

1:24:20

on the plane too?

1:24:22

-

No, it was a RAF plane.

Interviewer

And when you came to London, what happened?

1:24:26

-

The customs excise people

1:24:33

who came on the plane, and asked us questions about,

1:24:35

asked our address and family background.

1:24:41

Then we were told that we were gonna be walked

1:24:44

off the plane, there was going

1:24:46

to be a lot of journalists there taking our photos,

1:24:48

but just keep your head down.

1:24:51

And we said, "Okay."

1:24:54

But for some reason, they changed their minds.

1:24:57

They brought the vans onto the plane

1:24:57

and put us in the vans on the plane.

1:25:00

So nobody saw us, and took us

1:25:04

to Paddington Green Police Station, which was weird,

1:25:05

because the whole area had been cordoned off.

1:25:09

Nobody was allowed to come into that police station.

1:25:12

And you could see the flash photography going on.

1:25:15

People outside, all I saw, soon as we left,

1:25:18

came off the plane and went outside,

1:25:22

I saw the sirens come on.

1:25:24

And somebody was holding a placard

1:25:26

with freedom written on there.

1:25:28

I said, "Yeah, we're back in the UK now."

1:25:31

And then we were taken to Paddington Green Police Station

1:25:33

where we spent 48 hours,

1:25:37

that we were interrogated about four different times.

1:25:39

And that was the first time we actually spoke to our lawyers

1:25:43

and they said to us, "Don't worry.

1:25:46

Nothing's gonna happen.

1:25:47

You're gonna be out of here within," they said "two weeks."

1:25:48

That they can't keep you,

1:25:51

they can't keep you any longer than two weeks.

1:25:53

And we couldn't believe it.

1:25:54

And Gareth, my lawyer, said to me,

1:25:57

"Any questions they ask you,

1:26:01

you're not going to say anything.

1:26:03

Don't even say no comment.

1:26:05

You just keep your mouth shut."

1:26:06

I said, "No, I can't do that,"

1:26:08

because the last 2 1/2 years,

1:26:09

we've been answering every question

1:26:10

that's been thrown at us.

1:26:12

He said, "No, you just keep your mouth quiet.

1:26:15

Don't say anything at all."

1:26:16

And that was just strange.

1:26:18

And within 48 hours, we were free,

1:26:19

walking the streets of London.

1:26:22

It was unbelievable that three days earlier

1:26:23

we were in maximum security prison.

1:26:27

Now we were free to do whatever we want.

1:26:29

Woman

So what did you do?

1:26:32

-

Oh, it was like, being locked up all the time

1:26:35

and coming out of our cells with the shackles on,

1:26:39

we always used to take small steps,

1:26:42

and even though we were released, walking the streets,

1:26:44

we were still taking them small steps.

1:26:47

It took us about two days to get out of that habit

1:26:49

and just like walking.

1:26:53

We stayed in Gareth's house,

1:26:54

and just like, it's just being able to do whatever you want,

1:26:56

it just took a little bit longer to get used to it again.

1:27:00

-

How did you know about,

1:27:06

I just want to go back for a minute.

1:27:07

How did you know about John Walker Lindh?

1:27:08

How did you hear about him?

1:27:09

Was there really that you heard about outside activities

1:27:11

while you were in prison?

1:27:14

-

Oh, he was in Sheberghan Prison.

1:27:16

-

Right.

1:27:19

-

When we were there,

but he was kept separate.

1:27:20

And I think he was there for about two days

1:27:23

and they come and took him.

1:27:28

But there was stories going around about an American

1:27:29

who was there and that he'd been taken.

1:27:32

We didn't know who he was.

1:27:34

Then we, remember, I think when we got to Qandahar,

1:27:36

there was a lot of soldiers talking about him.

1:27:40

That's when we found out his name

1:27:42

and what had happened to him.

1:27:43

Then slowly, being in Guantanamo,

1:27:45

and just getting little bits of information

1:27:46

from different people.

1:27:48

That's how we learned to his story.

1:27:50

Interviewer

The soldiers told you what was going on?

1:27:52

-

Yeah.

1:27:53

Interviewer

Did they tell you

1:27:54

about what was going on politically in America too?

1:27:55

-

No, they weren't allowed to talk

1:27:57

about anything about that.

1:27:58

Interviewer

But they told you

1:27:59

about John Walker Lindh.

1:28:01

-

There's just little snippets of information.

1:28:02

They gave us a magazine once.

1:28:03

I don't know what it was.

1:28:06

And it had a column about John Walker Lindh.

1:28:07

And I happened to mention it to one of the soldiers,

1:28:11

and within 20 minutes I was taken out of my cell

1:28:16

and the magazine was taken away from me.

1:28:19

Interviewer

And you never met him when you were--

1:28:23

-

No, although he was in the same camp,

1:28:25

in the same prison, but I think he was there

1:28:28

for about two days, but we never actually saw him.

1:28:30

Interviewer

What would you say your opinion

1:28:33

of America was before you came to Guantanamo

1:28:35

and after you left?

1:28:38

And also your opinion of the UK before and after?

1:28:41

-

I don't think I really had an opinion on America.

1:28:47

It was just, I've never been there.

1:28:49

It's just what you see in the movies.

1:28:52

That's what you have.

1:28:53

I don't think my opinion of America

1:28:55

as a country has changed.

1:28:59

It's just another place that hopefully one,

1:29:01

sometime in the future, I'd love to go there.

1:29:05

'Cause there's a lot of soldiers

1:29:08

that we used to talk to and the places

1:29:09

that they used to live in, that we would like to see that.

1:29:11

But as a country, I've got nothing against America

1:29:16

as a country.

1:29:18

I've got nothing against American people.

1:29:20

I never have.

1:29:21

I never will.

1:29:22

It's just the government, what they did to me,

1:29:23

is what the government did to me,

1:29:26

it's not what the people did to me.

1:29:27

So I think we used to communicate that with the soldiers,

1:29:32

the soldiers were there.

1:29:35

They had a job, they had to do it.

1:29:36

They had no choice.

1:29:38

So there's no point in holding a grudge against them,

1:29:39

because if they didn't do, they'd be in the cell next to us.

1:29:42

Well, it's like the officials,

1:29:45

what they were telling them to do,

1:29:46

which is what I find it hard

1:29:50

to forgive them for what they did.

1:29:53

Interviewer

And how about the UK?

1:29:57

Did you have any thoughts about the UK?

1:29:59

-

I think I have stronger opinions about the UK

1:30:01

for not helping us more than I do with America.

1:30:06

'Cause they could have taken us out of there a lot,

1:30:12

a lot, a lot earlier than they did.

1:30:15

But it was a situation where we'd say

1:30:17

to the Americans, "Why are we still here?"

1:30:20

And they'd say to us,

1:30:22

"Oh, the British government doesn't want you back.

1:30:24

That's why you're here."

1:30:27

And we asked the Americans, I mean,

1:30:28

asked the British why we were still here,

1:30:30

and they'd say, "Oh, you're in American custody,

1:30:31

and we can't do anything about it."

1:30:34

So you can think, who's telling the truth?

1:30:37

Who's lying?

1:30:40

But I think they, 'cause them,

1:30:41

America's number one allies.

1:30:44

They could have done something a lot quicker than they did.

1:30:46

But for some reason they didn't do anything for us.

1:30:50

And since we've been back,

1:30:53

they haven't really done anything for us.

1:30:55

They said, they came on the news,

1:30:56

if you watched the press release before we got released,

1:30:58

it said, "Yeah, we'll help them do this.

1:31:00

We'll give them, so-and-so will get them houses,

1:31:03

we'll give them new lives."

1:31:06

But nothing, we haven't had nothing.

1:31:08

I think it's like the situation,

1:31:12

if someone's guilty of a crime

1:31:15

and they get released from prison,

1:31:17

they get a hell of a lot more than we do, we ever got.

1:31:19

Interviewer

Did the Brits even talk to you

1:31:24

after you were, after those 48 hours?

1:31:26

Did you ever see them again, an official somebody?

1:31:29

-

To this day, I haven't seen them.

1:31:32

-

Can I ask a question?

1:31:36

-

Yeah.

Woman

Did you have any physical injuries

1:31:38

or physical ailments that resulted

1:31:42

from the treatment that you underwent

1:31:44

while you were at Guantanamo?

1:31:48

-

Being locked up.

I think it was from the short shackling.

1:31:53

I still get pain in my knees and in my back.

1:31:55

And that was probably from sleeping on the metal bunks

1:31:59

as well, during night time, it used to get really cold,

1:32:03

and you'd have no choice, but to sleep on the metal.

1:32:06

Woman

And has it gotten better over time or not really?

1:32:08

-

Not really, no.

1:32:12

During the summer it's okay,

1:32:13

but during the winter time, it's like arthritis.

1:32:14

It just like, it gets really painful.

1:32:17

Interviewer

I only have a couple more questions,

1:32:19

and one is, is there anything

1:32:21

that you would like to happen now?

1:32:23

Not that we can necessarily do anything,

1:32:25

but I'm just wondering if--

1:32:27

-

No, Obama would have said, if he comes into power,

1:32:28

he's going to close Guantanamo

1:32:30

within the first hundred days.

1:32:31

I don't know how many days it's been,

1:32:36

well over 100 now, so what's going on?

1:32:37

Interviewer

Do you think,

1:32:43

do you know people still in Guantanamo?

1:32:44

-

Yeah, Omar, the Canadian.

1:32:46

He's still there.

1:32:48

There's a few Saudis still there.

1:32:49

And it's just like, there's one British guy, Shaker Aamer,

1:32:54

he's still there.

1:32:57

You see his family and them probably thinking,

1:32:59

why have all these, there's about 13 of us from the UK,

1:33:02

have been released and he's still there?

1:33:05

And what can you say to 'em?

1:33:08

You can't give them any information

1:33:11

about what's happening to him and why he's still there.

1:33:13

Interviewer

If you could think

1:33:18

about how Guantanamo impacted you,

1:33:21

how it affected your life, maybe positively and negatively,

1:33:26

do you have any thoughts about that?

1:33:31

-

I think it has made me stronger as an individual.

1:33:34

-

How so?

1:33:39

-

'Cause it brought me more

towards my religion than I was before.

1:33:43

It is a situation where they used to say to us,

1:33:47

"Denounce your faith in Islam and you'll get released."

1:33:51

And instead of that taking you away from Islam,

1:33:56

it brought us more closer and we start learning more.

1:33:59

So why do they want us to denounce our religion,

1:34:03

and they would release us?

1:34:07

So that brought us more towards Islam.

1:34:09

And we started learning more,

1:34:12

started reading the Quran more

1:34:13

and learning Arabic, making us more stronger.

1:34:15

'Cause there's one time in Camp X-Ray,

1:34:22

I was just like really depressed and said,

1:34:27

"This is one of my lowest points."

1:34:29

And one of the Arab guys,

1:34:32

he's one of the learned scholars.

1:34:34

He said to me, "Don't see this place as a prison.

1:34:37

See this as a learning point for yourself."

1:34:40

It's like you're at school,

1:34:45

you're here to learn about Islam.

1:34:46

Yeah, and to make the best of it.

1:34:48

Although it didn't click in straightaway,

1:34:51

him saying that, over a period of time,

1:34:54

you say, yeah, he's right, what he said.

1:34:57

And I think that that little thing he said to me

1:35:00

made a huge impact on me

1:35:03

throughout the 2 1/2 years I was there.

1:35:06

Interviewer

Did people really say to you

1:35:10

that if you abandoned Islam, they'll release you?

1:35:12

-

Yeah.

1:35:15

There's interrogators that used to say that to us.

1:35:16

There's one, there's another case,

1:35:18

there's some guys who were converts to Islam,

1:35:20

and one in particular, I can say,

1:35:25

David Hicks from Australia,

1:35:28

who they said to him "If you become a Christian now,

1:35:31

we will release you back to Australia,"

1:35:33

which you knew was a blatant lie,

1:35:36

'cause that's never gonna happen.

1:35:38

Interviewer

David Hicks told you that

1:35:41

or how did you know that?

1:35:42

-

David Hicks actually said that to us.

1:35:43

He told us.

1:35:44

Interviewer

So you learned something about yourself,

1:35:47

and became stronger from.

1:35:51

Was there something really negative

1:35:54

that you could look back at

1:35:56

what Guantanamo did, impact your life?

1:35:58

-

Just seeing the beatings and the mental torture

1:36:04

that they were putting a lot of people through.

1:36:09

It's hard to forget that.

1:36:11

And just speaking to people who had families.

1:36:13

Although I weren't married,

1:36:18

I didn't have any children at the time,

1:36:19

so it was, it weren't that bad for us,

1:36:21

but there was people who were like 40, 50 years old

1:36:24

who have got six, seven kids,

1:36:26

and who's gonna support them?

1:36:29

And you talk to them, and you just feel really depressed.

1:36:32

And even after we were released,

1:36:36

we think, I'm on my own, my family's here.

1:36:39

Although I ain't married, I ain't got kids,

1:36:42

why have I been released, and he's still there

1:36:44

whose kids are still waiting for him?

1:36:46

Interviewer

So you knew a lot of those people

1:36:53

and that was hard?

1:36:55

-

Yeah.

-

Well, I think that was,

1:36:58

I think I'm finished unless it's,

1:37:01

that was wonderful.

1:37:05

-

We're all done?

Thank you.

1:37:06

-

Thanks so much.

-

Not a problem.

1:37:07

-

Very appreciated.

Woman

Is there anything that we didn't ask

1:37:09

that you think it would be important to say

1:37:10

for the documentary?

1:37:11

-

I don't know.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

1:37:13

-

You've said a lot.

1:37:15

-

Yeah.

Well, and thank you very much.

1:37:18

-

You're welcome.

-

We so appreciate it, so we're done.

1:37:20

Woman

So that we know,

1:37:21

so just 'cause we, this is something we haven't like,

1:37:23

what were the different levels and what were denied

1:37:26

and what were--

1:37:29

-

I can't remember what was denied.

1:37:30

-

Well, it's more like you wore different uniforms, right?

1:37:32

Like an orange or white--

1:37:34

-

Oh, no, it wasn't.

This was all in Camp Delta, this was.

1:37:35

Interviewer

Oh, so it didn't have anything

1:37:37

to do with the uniforms?

1:37:39

-

No, everyone was in orange uniform in Camp Delta.

1:37:40

It was... if you have soap in your cell, or like toothpaste,

1:37:42

-

That was one level?

1:37:50

-

If you had...

It was level one, I think,

1:37:52

you are allowed to keep it in your cell.

1:37:53

Level two was, you can have it on request.

1:37:54

Level three and four, I don't think you allowed it at all.

1:37:58

The only time you'd get soap

1:38:02

is when you were taken to the showers outside.

1:38:03

Woman

Okay.

1:38:06

And so that would apply to everything,

1:38:07

to exercise, to--

1:38:08

-

And like, yeah.

Rasul, Shafiq - Interview master file

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