Gelles, Michael - short clip - CoerciveTechniquesProduceUnreliableInformation
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| - | This was this whole aggressive coercive tactics | 0:00 |
| to get information. | 0:03 | |
| So if you established sort of a situation where | 0:05 | |
| someone experiences learned helplessness | 0:08 | |
| you're going to get information. | 0:10 | |
| I mean, and, and, and to say that | 0:12 | |
| by waterboarding and using some of these coercive tactics | 0:13 | |
| they probably got lots of information. | 0:17 | |
| Yes. So if that was the metric, very successful. | 0:20 | |
| Now, show me if you vetted that information | 0:23 | |
| how much of that was really accurate, reliable | 0:26 | |
| or just wasn't made up, because we knew people | 0:28 | |
| we know people who were tortured, will tell you anything. | 0:30 | |
| And as a result of that, I mean, | 0:33 | |
| there's the biggest risk, you want to get engaged | 0:35 | |
| in any type of aggressive or coercive tactic, creating | 0:37 | |
| a situation where the person feels a total loss | 0:40 | |
| of control and a total sense of learned helplessness. | 0:44 | |
| You're going to get information. | 0:47 | |
| The question is what kind of | 0:49 | |
| information you're going to get. | 0:50 | |
| That's why this rapport based approach was very important | 0:51 | |
| because you established a relationship | 0:54 | |
| and really what you were doing was you were | 0:56 | |
| to some extent violating the expectation of the detainee. | 0:59 | |
| They really expected you to be, and then you weren't. | 1:03 | |
| And by having a relationship | 1:06 | |
| and being able to have conversations | 1:07 | |
| and talk about themes that were important to them | 1:09 | |
| they developed a relationship with you. | 1:11 | |
| Now, once I have a relationship with you, with that culture | 1:13 | |
| very important that I don't disappoint you | 1:16 | |
| or bring shame upon myself. | 1:20 | |
| So I would give information if the | 1:21 | |
| questions were asked right. | 1:23 | |
| I mean, there weren't any lawyers, there weren't a lot | 1:25 | |
| of lawyers supporting this stuff. | 1:27 | |
| I mean, cause like anything else, I mean | 1:29 | |
| how are you ever going to try these folks? | 1:32 | |
| I mean, what were you gonna ever do with them? | 1:33 | |
| Well I'm not sure that Chaney and you. | 1:33 | |
| - | Didn't care about that, they didn't care about that. | 1:40 |
| They wanted the information | 1:41 | |
| in the moment because they believed | 1:43 | |
| in that they needed to protect America. | 1:44 | |
| I understand that. | 1:46 | |
| Totally understand that. | 1:47 | |
| In fact, I would say too, I don't really care | 1:48 | |
| whether you ever prosecuted these guys but please | 1:50 | |
| take an approach that, you know, | 1:53 | |
| is moral and ethical on some level | 1:55 | |
| but also get accurate and reliable information. | 1:57 | |
| But I'm quick to say that, I've said | 2:00 | |
| that before the moral and the ethical thing. | 2:01 | |
| Sure. There's an element of that, but the accurate | 2:03 | |
| and reliable information, quite frankly, more important. | 2:05 |
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