Diaz, Matt - Interview master file
Loading the media player...
Transcript
Transcripts may contain inaccuracies.
Johnny | Okay, rolling. | 0:05 |
Interviewer | Okay, good afternoon. | 0:06 |
- | Good afternoon. | 0:07 |
Interviewer | We are very grateful to you | 0:08 |
for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project. | 0:10 | |
We invite you to speak of your experiences and involvement | 0:15 | |
with the detainees who were held at Guantanamo Bay. | 0:19 | |
And we are hoping to provide you | 0:23 | |
with an opportunity to tell your story | 0:24 | |
in your own words. | 0:27 | |
We are creating an archive of stories | 0:30 | |
so that people in America and around the world | 0:32 | |
will have a better understanding of what you and others | 0:34 | |
have observed and experienced while working there. | 0:38 | |
Future generations need to know what happened at Guantanamo, | 0:42 | |
and by telling your story you're contributing to history. | 0:45 | |
We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us. | 0:49 | |
And it is any time you wanna take a break, | 0:52 | |
just let us know and we can take a break. | 0:55 | |
And if there's anything that you say that you wanna redact, | 0:57 | |
just tell us, and we can redact it as well. | 0:59 | |
- | Okay. | 1:02 |
And I'd like to give us some general background information. | 1:02 | |
What is your name, your birth place, | 1:08 | |
and age and date of birth? | 1:11 | |
Why don't we start with that | 1:14 | |
and then we'll have a few other questions. | 1:15 | |
- | Okay, well, I'm Matthew Mark Diaz, | 1:17 |
was born in Gary, Indiana on October 7th of 1965. | 1:19 | |
Interviewer | And that makes you? | 1:26 |
- | I'm 46 currently. | 1:27 |
Interviewer | Okay, and where do you live now? | 1:28 |
- | I live out in Queens in New York. | 1:32 |
Interviewer | And your marital status | 1:35 |
- | Married, two children. | 1:37 |
Interviewer | What kind of education? | 1:40 |
A little background on your education. | 1:43 | |
- | Well, started out within a GED when I was 17, | 1:46 |
because I dropped out of high school in my junior year, | 1:49 | |
the 11th grade, and then I joined the army. | 1:51 | |
And while I was at basic training in the army | 1:55 | |
I obtained my GED and that's all I had | 1:57 | |
for the first six years of my enlistment in the army. | 2:00 | |
And then I started taking college courses. | 2:03 | |
So eventually I obtained my Bachelor of Arts in criminology. | 2:05 | |
And then I went on to law school | 2:09 | |
after I got out of the army. | 2:11 | |
So I have my JD, a Juris Doctor degree. | 2:13 | |
And then a few years later, while I was in the Navy, | 2:16 | |
I obtained my LLM or Master's of Law in Military Law. | 2:19 | |
Interviewer | And where was that? | 2:24 |
- | The Army JAG School, | 2:25 |
it's located on the University of Virginia grounds. | 2:27 | |
Interviewer | We're good, okay. | 2:32 |
Why don't we begin with just | 2:33 | |
how you became involved in the military, | 2:35 | |
How did you even enter the military? | 2:38 | |
- | Well as I mentioned just a bit ago, | 2:41 |
I dropped out of high school | 2:45 | |
and basically wasn't getting anywhere in life, | 2:46 | |
I was a dishwasher. | 2:48 | |
And so at that time, my dad was | 2:52 | |
in pre-trial confinement, pending a trial in his case, | 2:57 | |
he was pending a murder trial. | 3:00 | |
So he was locked up in Riverside County Jail | 3:02 | |
in Riverside, California. | 3:05 | |
And I was living in San Bernardino at the time, | 3:08 | |
which is the county right next door, | 3:10 | |
but I wasn't, I was living with a girlfriend. | 3:13 | |
So it was just the two of us. | 3:16 | |
And we were living in a little kitchenette motel | 3:17 | |
off of the highway there in San Bernardino. | 3:19 | |
So getting into trouble, not doing so well. | 3:23 | |
So I just wasn't attending school. | 3:27 | |
And was being basically a full-time dishwasher | 3:31 | |
and it just wasn't getting me anywhere. | 3:33 | |
So fortunately I was able to visit my dad | 3:35 | |
while he was there in jail. | 3:38 | |
And he was encouraging me to do something with my life | 3:39 | |
and don't just be a dishwasher and a high school dropout. | 3:41 | |
And the army was one of the things he guided me to | 3:44 | |
as well as some adults in my life at the time, | 3:47 | |
as I mentioned, I lived at a motel off of the highway. | 3:50 | |
The manager was probably in his thirties, Hispanic guy. | 3:54 | |
And so he kind of was encouraging me to | 3:58 | |
at least join the guard or the reserves. | 4:00 | |
And then one of the cooks at the restaurant | 4:03 | |
that I was a dishwasher at was also a prior service army. | 4:06 | |
And so those three adults in my life were basically | 4:11 | |
steering me towards that since I was a high school dropout. | 4:13 | |
And that's how I got to join the army. | 4:15 | |
Interviewer | And initially, | 4:18 |
what work did you do in the army | 4:21 | |
and how did you then decide | 4:22 | |
you wanted to go to law school? | 4:24 | |
- | Well, just luck of the draw. | 4:26 |
I was air defense artillery. | 4:31 | |
I could have gone in as an MP or Military Policemen, | 4:33 | |
that would have allowed me to enter about a month earlier. | 4:37 | |
But I guess at that time | 4:39 | |
I didn't want to leave just yet, | 4:41 | |
so I decided to take the other job | 4:42 | |
which was the air defense artillery. | 4:43 | |
So it was really nothing but training, | 4:46 | |
war games, never fired a missile in my life, | 4:49 | |
the whole eight and a half years I was in the army. | 4:52 | |
So basically it was just a lot of training, | 4:56 | |
a lot of downtime and it was just something | 4:58 | |
I knew I didn't want to do for life. | 5:00 | |
I mean, there's nothing on the outside | 5:01 | |
in the civilian world that translated well | 5:03 | |
with air defense artillery. | 5:05 | |
So I knew I needed to do something else | 5:06 | |
and it took me six years to realize that, | 5:08 | |
because that's when I started | 5:12 | |
taking college courses to pursue a degree. | 5:13 | |
Interviewer | While you were still in the army? | 5:15 |
- | While I was still in the army. | 5:16 |
Interviewer | And when you, | 5:19 |
you didn't go to Guantanamo | 5:24 | |
until you finished law school, right? | 5:25 | |
- | Yes, I was already out of the army, | 5:27 |
I finished my bachelor's degree, went to law school, | 5:29 | |
and then commissioned in the Navy as a JAG officer. | 5:32 | |
Interviewer | Were you obligated | 5:36 |
to go back into the military? | 5:37 | |
- | No, I was, I completed my both enlistments. | 5:41 |
I had an initial three-year enlistment, | 5:43 | |
then I re-enlisted for six years, | 5:45 | |
I realized that at the two and a half year mark | 5:48 | |
so that gave me a total of eight and a half years. | 5:50 | |
And I completed that obligation. | 5:53 | |
I did sign up for individual ready reserve, | 5:55 | |
so I could have gone back or been called up | 5:57 | |
had we had a massive war at the time. | 6:00 | |
And I think a lot of people did | 6:02 | |
during the Iraq war buildup, | 6:05 | |
but no, I had an obligation | 6:08 | |
but I did have to get their permission | 6:09 | |
before I was commissioned in the Navy, | 6:13 | |
because I was still on their books | 6:15 | |
and they just had to drop me from their books | 6:17 | |
and put me over to the Navy side. | 6:18 | |
Interviewer | And when you went in as JAG, | 6:21 |
what assignments did you first get? | 6:23 | |
- | Initially in 1995, I went down | 6:26 |
to Jacksonville, Florida, at the Naval Air Station. | 6:28 | |
I was on the Naval Legal Service Office, | 6:32 | |
which they provided defense services | 6:35 | |
for service members who went to courts-martial, | 6:37 | |
and then general legal assistance | 6:42 | |
for any civil issues they may have, | 6:44 | |
landlord, tenant disputes, consumer debt issues. | 6:48 | |
It's just all kinds of problems they might've had, | 6:52 | |
as well as drafting a lot of wills. | 6:54 | |
We did a lot of will clinics where we drafted | 6:56 | |
plenty of wills for people that were about to deploy. | 6:58 | |
Interviewer | And where were you at 9/11? | 7:01 |
- | At that time, I was actually in class, | 7:03 |
at the Army JAG School, pursuing my LLM degree. | 7:06 | |
I'm not certain what class it was, | 7:11 | |
but it was the first semester, | 7:12 | |
and that's the semester I took international law | 7:13 | |
for that whole semester. | 7:16 | |
Interviewer | And did that inspire you | 7:19 |
to change course at all? | 7:21 | |
In where you might go next after 9/11? | 7:24 | |
- | Not necessarily at that moment. | 7:27 |
By then I was probably negotiating | 7:32 | |
for a follow-on tour of duty after that. | 7:34 | |
I was actually trying to negotiate to go on a ship. | 7:38 | |
One of the 12 carriers that the Navy had at the time, | 7:40 | |
but I was too junior, | 7:43 | |
I was still an 03 or a Lieutenant. | 7:44 | |
And usually people that go to the Army JAG School | 7:49 | |
are O-4, Lieutenant commanders. | 7:52 | |
And the same with going onto a carrier. | 7:54 | |
They want you to be more senior as an O4. | 7:57 | |
So I was too junior to pick up a position on a carrier, | 7:59 | |
so I ended up going to Great Lakes, Illinois | 8:03 | |
to be an assistant officer | 8:06 | |
in charge of a Naval legal service office detachment, | 8:07 | |
which was a smaller office, | 8:11 | |
but it was back to providing the defense services | 8:15 | |
and the legal assistance for service members. | 8:17 | |
Interviewer | And how did it come | 8:20 |
that you were sent to Guantanamo? | 8:21 | |
- | Well, after, | 8:23 |
by then, I went up to Great Lakes, 2002, | 8:26 | |
it was a 2002 to 2005 assignment | 8:28 | |
and we had Iraq and Afghanistan going on. | 8:32 | |
And so the branches, the services | 8:35 | |
were looking for individual augmentees or IAs, | 8:37 | |
lawyers to fill billets, | 8:42 | |
because the Army and the Marine, | 8:44 | |
the Army and the Marines were picking up the bulk | 8:47 | |
of the duty on the ground there. | 8:49 | |
So, you know, the Navy wanted to step in | 8:52 | |
and provide as much services that we could provide, | 8:55 | |
short of ground troops. | 8:58 | |
So that's where the lawyers came in. | 9:01 | |
And so there was the JAG Corps in the Navy | 9:02 | |
is a pretty small community, 700 or so, | 9:05 | |
I guess at the time. | 9:07 | |
And so there was a lot of emails going out, JAG Corps, wide, | 9:08 | |
looking for people to fill these six month | 9:12 | |
or one year billets and, you know, Guantanamo, | 9:15 | |
Iraq and Afghanistan were the three places | 9:19 | |
that they were primarily looking to fill. | 9:21 | |
So that's, out of the three, Guantanamo was the one I chose. | 9:23 | |
Interviewer | Why did you choose Guantanamo? | 9:27 |
- | Well, I knew if I didn't pick one | 9:30 |
then one would be picked for me at one point. | 9:31 | |
And it just so happened that my commanding officer, | 9:35 | |
who happened to be in Washington DC, as I mentioned, | 9:38 | |
we were a detachment up there at Great Lakes. | 9:40 | |
So I had an O-5 commander who was my boss at the detachment. | 9:44 | |
And I was as his assistant officer in charge, | 9:47 | |
but our commanding officer was in Washington, DC. | 9:49 | |
He was an O6 captain. | 9:51 | |
He emailed my supervisor and asked him, | 9:53 | |
do you think Matt would wanna take this job? | 9:56 | |
So my supervisor asked me about it | 9:59 | |
and I had seen the emails in the past. | 10:01 | |
I knew that out of the ones that I've seen | 10:03 | |
on this list of possible job opportunities that were coming | 10:05 | |
up in the future, that Guantanamo would be one, | 10:07 | |
out of the choices that I would select. | 10:10 | |
So when he approached me about it | 10:12 | |
I was already aware of what the, you know, | 10:14 | |
generally what the mission was going to be about. | 10:17 | |
So I said, let me talk to my wife | 10:19 | |
and then I'll get back to you tomorrow. | 10:21 | |
And I talked to her that evening | 10:22 | |
and the next day I told him, | 10:24 | |
I pretty much knew I was going to do it, | 10:25 | |
I just wanted to make sure I got her thumbs up as well. | 10:27 | |
So I told him the next day that I would take it. | 10:30 | |
Interviewer | And when was this that you accepted it? | 10:34 |
- | I'm thinking maybe January, February timeframe of 2004. | 10:37 |
And I didn't head down to Guantanamo until July. | 10:41 | |
Interviewer | And what happened in between? | 10:44 |
- | That's when I started communicating, | 10:47 |
after we notified the commanding officer | 10:49 | |
saying that I would do it, | 10:50 | |
then he notified the detailers and said, this is your man. | 10:51 | |
Then I started corresponding by email with | 10:57 | |
the person I was going to relieve, | 11:00 | |
who was sitting at that desk at the time, | 11:01 | |
her name was Elizabeth Jones. | 11:04 | |
Interviewer | What position's that? | 11:05 |
- | It's the deputy staff judge advocate down at Guantanamo | 11:07 |
for the joint task force. | 11:10 | |
There was an Army, O-5, Lieutenant Colonel | 11:12 | |
who filled the staff judge advocate position. | 11:15 | |
And then the Navy position was the deputy. | 11:18 | |
So that's the position I was going to fill. | 11:21 | |
And then there were three O-3 positions | 11:23 | |
on the JTF legal staff | 11:26 | |
and they were army or air force positions. | 11:28 | |
Interviewer | What was the role of staff? | 11:33 |
- | Well, to provide the legal services | 11:35 |
for the commanding general | 11:37 | |
and the commands that were part of the JTF, | 11:38 | |
because it was combined, it was a joint command. | 11:43 | |
There were different. | 11:45 | |
All the branches of the service | 11:46 | |
pretty much were represented, | 11:48 | |
but it was detention operations | 11:50 | |
and intelligence exploitation. | 11:53 | |
So any legal issues related to that mission. | 11:55 | |
But that changed as soon as I got down there, | 12:00 | |
it changed to being dealing with the habeas litigation, | 12:03 | |
and then looking into allegations of abuse. | 12:09 | |
Interviewer | Well, I'll get into that. | 12:12 |
Did you get any training | 12:14 | |
during those four months before you went down? | 12:14 | |
- | No, well, I mean, no, | 12:16 |
it's basically train as you go, | 12:18 | |
but I did have the background | 12:20 | |
in my Master's of Law. | 12:22 | |
I had the international law class, | 12:23 | |
and then I just read up, | 12:28 | |
uploaded a lot of information | 12:31 | |
and downloaded a lot of information | 12:32 | |
and printed out references that I think I would need, | 12:34 | |
such as all four Geneva Conventions, | 12:39 | |
all of the military commissions orders | 12:43 | |
that were in draft or final form, | 12:45 | |
then they also had instructions | 12:48 | |
related to the military commissions. | 12:49 | |
There was the Supreme Court cases | 12:53 | |
that were pending at the time. | 12:56 | |
So I read amicus briefs related to that. | 12:57 | |
And one in particular was the amicus brief | 13:01 | |
submitted by the JAGs. | 13:04 | |
There were two Navy JAGs and a Marine JAG | 13:07 | |
that submitted an amicus brief | 13:10 | |
and the two Navy JAGs I served under | 13:11 | |
when I was in the JAG Corps. | 13:13 | |
And then I went to my, I had a garage, | 13:19 | |
went down there and that's where I had my materials | 13:22 | |
from my international law class | 13:23 | |
and I pulled all of my outlines. | 13:25 | |
There was an operational international law handbook, | 13:27 | |
a little blue book. | 13:30 | |
I pulled that out. | 13:32 | |
So I just gathered all of my materials | 13:33 | |
of what I was going to take with me | 13:34 | |
and read as I was going along. | 13:36 | |
And if I'm not mistaken, | 13:38 | |
I do believe the working group papers were printed out. | 13:41 | |
I know I read them at one point | 13:44 | |
after Abu Ghraib scandal broke. | 13:46 | |
I believe they released a lot | 13:49 | |
of the working group information | 13:50 | |
and all kinds of other documents. | 13:51 | |
I know I printed a whole bunch | 13:54 | |
of things that I took down there with me. | 13:55 | |
Interviewer | Did you have any expectations | 13:57 |
of what you would see down there? | 13:58 | |
- | A general idea, because another thing that, you know. | 14:00 |
I started being more focused as time, | 14:03 | |
from between February and July of 2004, | 14:07 | |
as I got closer to my assignment. | 14:10 | |
So I became more focused on what was going on on there. | 14:13 | |
And so when Abu Ghraib broke in April, | 14:16 | |
it just focused me a little bit more. | 14:19 | |
And then around that same time, | 14:21 | |
I believe there was a special, | 14:23 | |
2020 Peter Jennings on Guantanamo. | 14:24 | |
And on that program was a few JAGs | 14:27 | |
that I had worked with in the past, | 14:30 | |
major Michael Maury, Admiral Guter, I believe, | 14:31 | |
Hudson was also on there. | 14:35 | |
And it was Admiral Guter and Hudson | 14:37 | |
that were on the amicus brief that I mentioned a while ago. | 14:38 | |
So listening to them describe their experiences | 14:41 | |
and what was going on at Guantanamo. | 14:44 | |
I mean, those are opinions I respected | 14:45 | |
and those are things, their perspectives is how | 14:47 | |
I understood things to be, because that's how I was trained | 14:52 | |
not only as an army person, but as a Navy JAG, | 14:54 | |
and what we were trained on | 14:59 | |
at the international operational law class | 15:01 | |
at the Army JAG School. | 15:03 | |
So what they were saying tracked | 15:04 | |
with what I understood things to be. | 15:06 | |
So that's kind of information I had uploaded in my head | 15:07 | |
as I went down into the assignment. | 15:12 | |
Interviewer | Were you nervous at all | 15:13 |
about going down there? | 15:14 | |
- | Somewhat. | 15:15 |
But that all changed, because the week before I went down, | 15:18 | |
was when the Supreme Court issued their opinion | 15:21 | |
in Rasul and a couple of other cases. | 15:24 | |
Interviewer | Why did that change? | 15:28 |
- | Well, because then my mission changed | 15:30 |
because then it was, how were we going to respond | 15:32 | |
to the Supreme Court's decision? | 15:35 | |
And that's where we scrambled to come up with the | 15:39 | |
the CSRTs or the Combatant Status Review Tribunals | 15:41 | |
and how are we going to notify the detainees | 15:44 | |
of their rights to these tribunals? | 15:46 | |
And then a quick blurb about habeas rights that they had. | 15:49 | |
So responding to that, I mean | 15:53 | |
my second day on the island, | 15:56 | |
I believe Alberto Mora and Admiral Lohr, the top Navy JAG, | 15:57 | |
they were down there. | 16:00 | |
And that's what we were working on | 16:02 | |
is how to come up with the notification. | 16:03 | |
Interviewer | Were you involved in the policy | 16:06 |
or you were told that was going to be the policy? | 16:08 | |
- | Everything was top down, I was basically told | 16:12 |
how it was going to be done from DOD, DOJ. | 16:16 | |
Interviewer | When you first arrived in Guantanamo | 16:18 |
what was your first impressions | 16:21 | |
of the base and the prison camp? | 16:23 | |
- | Well, I mean, that was my second time there. | 16:28 |
I was there in 1998 when it was just a Navy base, quiet. | 16:29 | |
And I went down there for, | 16:33 | |
I was doing a hotline investigation | 16:35 | |
or an inspector general investigation. | 16:37 | |
I was an investigator, so I was familiar with the base. | 16:38 | |
So I went down there. | 16:43 | |
The first day or two it was pretty much the same | 16:47 | |
because the same scenarios, | 16:50 | |
I didn't go down to the camps right away, | 16:51 | |
just, there was a lot more army people. | 16:54 | |
And it seemed a little bit different, | 16:56 | |
a little bit more active than it was when I was there, | 16:58 | |
the first time, it was pretty much a sleepy town | 17:00 | |
when I was there before, | 17:02 | |
but this time there was a lot more traffic on the roads. | 17:03 | |
But it still, I mean, | 17:07 | |
I don't know if you've ever been down to Guantanamo, | 17:09 | |
but it's still a sleepy, you know, it's a quiet little town, | 17:10 | |
but it wasn't even quieter back in 1998 | 17:13 | |
Interviewer | But by day two or three, | 17:16 |
when you went to the camps, | 17:17 | |
did you have any expectations of what you would see | 17:19 | |
and did the impressions you had meet that? | 17:22 | |
- | General idea, just because I hadn't seen much. | 17:27 |
So seeing everything up close was eyeopening. | 17:30 | |
Interviewer | How so? | 17:36 |
Well, we took a tour through the camps, | 17:37 | |
not only the one that the media | 17:40 | |
is usually sent through, the empty ones, | 17:42 | |
just to show what the comfort items would be | 17:45 | |
in things of that nature | 17:46 | |
but actually the ones that where detainees were. | 17:47 | |
Interviewer | Did you talk to detainees? | 17:51 |
- | No, not the first day when I went down there. | 17:53 |
Eventually I did, because as habeas picked up | 17:56 | |
and more detainees were getting legal mail, | 17:59 | |
I would be the one responsible for serving that, | 18:02 | |
doing the official service process | 18:05 | |
and having somebody witness that I had served them | 18:07 | |
with their legal papers | 18:09 | |
or their legal mail from their lawyers. | 18:11 | |
So I had more interaction by just, | 18:13 | |
ascertaining their identity and then ensuring | 18:15 | |
that it's the right person that this was addressed to | 18:18 | |
and then making sure that they received it | 18:20 | |
or if they didn't want to receive it, | 18:21 | |
putting it in their box, above their cell. | 18:22 | |
Interviewer | The thing on regular mail, | 18:25 |
were you one of the people who would also distribute that? | 18:27 | |
- | No, that went through a separate process, | 18:30 |
where the censors would look at that and- | 18:33 | |
Interviewer | Your job was just to review legal mail. | 18:36 |
- | Legal mail, yeah, but not to open it. | 18:37 |
I don't know how much I'm getting | 18:42 | |
into here as far as the process, but as far as, | 18:43 | |
when it would come in sealed, | 18:45 | |
but when we're in front of the detainee, | 18:47 | |
we would explain to them that we're gonna break the seal, | 18:48 | |
not going to read what the contents are, | 18:52 | |
we're just going to make sure | 18:53 | |
there's nothing like paper clips or staples, | 18:54 | |
things of that nature in there, | 18:56 | |
which was kind of silly, | 18:58 | |
but that's the stuff they couldn't have. | 18:58 | |
So we would open it and make sure that nothing | 19:00 | |
that they weren't supposed to have was in there. | 19:03 | |
Then we would give it to them. | 19:05 | |
Interviewer | Did you have an interpreter with you? | 19:06 |
- | Yes, if they needed it. | 19:09 |
So it sometimes became a process. | 19:10 | |
We would have to coordinate saying, okay, we have legal mail | 19:12 | |
for a certain detainee. | 19:14 | |
And so we'd have to talk to the people | 19:15 | |
that knew about those detainees to determine, | 19:18 | |
do they speak English | 19:20 | |
or do we need an translator? | 19:21 | |
And so we'd have to coordinate with the right people to | 19:23 | |
make sure that they were available to go | 19:24 | |
with us when we delivered there mail. | 19:27 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever have any detainees | 19:29 |
who were hostile to you? | 19:30 | |
- | No, I think the worst case was one that didn't | 19:32 |
even wanna take it from me, | 19:34 | |
and just indicated for me | 19:36 | |
to put it in the box above his cell. | 19:38 | |
- | What other duties did you have | 19:41 |
those first few weeks or months, day to day? | 19:42 | |
- | Run of the mill military justice things. | 19:48 |
If service members were getting into trouble, | 19:52 | |
I didn't actually process the cases, I just reviewed | 19:55 | |
what had been processed by the lower level echelons | 19:57 | |
Interviewer | And dealing with the habeas | 20:03 |
what exactly did that entail? | 20:05 | |
- | Well, we were making it up as we went along | 20:06 |
because there was just Supreme Court opinion, | 20:10 | |
as I mentioned, just came out the week before | 20:12 | |
saying that the detainees were entitled to | 20:14 | |
bring their habeas corpus action. | 20:16 | |
So we were trying to find out how to respond to that. | 20:18 | |
But of the, | 20:24 | |
I guess there were about 60 detainees that were represented | 20:25 | |
in about 13 separate habeas cases | 20:28 | |
that were pending at the time. | 20:30 | |
So the attorneys were trying to schedule | 20:31 | |
to come on down, so that's basically, | 20:35 | |
I became the primary point of contact for that | 20:37 | |
making sure that logistically, you know, | 20:40 | |
did they have their country clearances? | 20:41 | |
Where were they going to be lodged | 20:43 | |
and who was going to be their escort? | 20:45 | |
To escort them from the other side of the island | 20:47 | |
to the main side where the detainees were | 20:49 | |
and then getting them from there down to the camps. | 20:52 | |
And when are they going to go to lunch | 20:55 | |
and all of that stuff. | 20:56 | |
So the logistics, taking care of the logistics | 20:57 | |
of the visit. | 20:59 | |
- | That was your job? | |
- | That was my job | 21:00 |
and coordinating with all the right people. | 21:01 | |
Because as I mentioned with the mail | 21:03 | |
we would have to ascertain, do we need | 21:04 | |
translators to assist with | 21:08 | |
or what are the particular languages of this person? | 21:10 | |
And are we gonna move this person from one spot | 21:13 | |
to where they were supposed to be for the interviews? | 21:16 | |
So it's just a lot | 21:20 | |
of different things that we'd had to coordinate. | 21:21 | |
Interviewer | And who else would you be working | 21:23 |
with in setting up that protocol? | 21:24 | |
- | Well the Joint Intelligence Group or the JIG, | 21:26 |
which was the interrogator people, | 21:28 | |
just to make sure they were aware | 21:32 | |
that there was going to be a lawyer on island. | 21:33 | |
Interviewer | Why would the interrogators | 21:36 |
have to know that? | 21:37 | |
- | That was just protocol for, | 21:38 |
they wanted everybody to know. | 21:41 | |
We had our meetings that we made sure we put out | 21:45 | |
who was coming down to visit | 21:47 | |
and which detainees that were coming down to visit. | 21:49 | |
So everybody would know, the interrogators would know. | 21:53 | |
The people that ran the detention operations | 21:55 | |
the actual prison part, they would have to know | 21:59 | |
because they were the ones that were going to have to | 22:01 | |
make the actual move of the detainee | 22:02 | |
from their normal cells over | 22:05 | |
at Camp Delta over to Camp Echo. | 22:06 | |
I don't know if you're familiar with Camp Echo, | 22:09 | |
a separate, the little house cabins, | 22:11 | |
which was a little bit easier | 22:14 | |
for the interviews to take place. | 22:15 | |
Interviewer | Could you describe that for us? | 22:17 |
- | Well, it was, I guess from an aerial point of view | 22:19 |
if you're looking down, | 22:24 | |
Camp Delta would be over to the left. | 22:26 | |
And so just a little bit removed | 22:28 | |
from the main confinement area of Camp Delta | 22:30 | |
there was an extra area over here on the right-hand side. | 22:34 | |
And that's where Camp Echo was. | 22:37 | |
And Camp Delta, the majority of the confinement facilities | 22:38 | |
were these long trailer-like confinement facilities | 22:44 | |
broken up into maybe, I don't know, maybe 40 cells in there, | 22:49 | |
Camp Echo were these shacks. | 22:53 | |
And I believe they were just, it was divided into two. | 22:56 | |
It was like a duplex, I guess it would be room | 22:58 | |
for two detainees, two separate entrances though, | 23:00 | |
and they'd have no interaction | 23:03 | |
because it'd be a solid wall in between the two cells. | 23:04 | |
And then even within each individual structure | 23:08 | |
or which in each individual confinement area of Camp Echo | 23:10 | |
were these shacks there, | 23:14 | |
it would be further divided in two, | 23:16 | |
when you first walked in, was where the, | 23:18 | |
the table was for where the interviews, | 23:22 | |
or interrogations at some points, would take place. | 23:24 | |
In the table or in the floor | 23:28 | |
they would have an eye bolt, | 23:30 | |
for where the detainee would be chained down | 23:31 | |
during these interviews. | 23:34 | |
And then on the left side is where the detainee's | 23:37 | |
bed was and his toilet. | 23:40 | |
And there was a separate shower area. | 23:42 | |
Interviewer | And the lawyer who came in there | 23:46 |
would they come in that same entrance? | 23:49 | |
- | When they came to Camp Echo? | 23:51 |
Yes, they would. | 23:53 | |
The very first visit, | 23:54 | |
I went down there with Gitanjali Gutierrez. | 23:56 | |
She hadn't been with CCR at the time. | 24:01 | |
She was with Gibbons Del Dale, I believe the law firm, | 24:02 | |
but when she came down, | 24:05 | |
I escorted her down the first time, | 24:06 | |
just to show her what the process was going to be. | 24:07 | |
I believe she was going to be there for a few days. | 24:11 | |
So I just went down with her that first day, | 24:13 | |
along with, we had a Marine escort, | 24:15 | |
enlisted service person that would, | 24:18 | |
the gunnery sergeant that went with full-time escort. | 24:20 | |
He actually went to the other side of the island, | 24:22 | |
picked her up, took her to breakfast | 24:24 | |
and then brought her to our offices. | 24:27 | |
And that's when I escorted them. | 24:29 | |
We all went down to Camp Echo. | 24:31 | |
So yeah, I went through the process with her, | 24:33 | |
there is a couple of gates you go through | 24:35 | |
before you get to these shacks and Camp Echo. | 24:39 | |
And I basically gave her a tour | 24:41 | |
of what to expect or what we were doing | 24:46 | |
and including the video camera that was in Camp Echo. | 24:49 | |
And then, you know, she obviously had objections to that | 24:54 | |
and I told her it was going to be, it can't hear anything, | 24:57 | |
it was going to be pointed towards the floor, | 25:00 | |
so we can't really see much, | 25:01 | |
but if, you know, they're concerned | 25:02 | |
the staff concern was her safety. | 25:05 | |
And so I actually took her to the center | 25:10 | |
of this Camp Echo where the guard shack was | 25:13 | |
to show her what we would see on the camera. | 25:15 | |
So she could see on the video screen | 25:18 | |
what we would be seeing inside the cells. | 25:19 | |
Interviewer | Since you mentioned that, | 25:23 |
some of the lawyers that we've interviewed, | 25:25 | |
have said that they'd thought, even though they were told | 25:26 | |
that the camera didn't pick up an audio, | 25:29 | |
in fact they felt, some think that it did. | 25:32 | |
Did you ever hear that complaint? | 25:37 | |
- | Yeah, I've heard that complaint, | 25:39 |
but I wouldn't be able to confirm or deny that | 25:41 | |
without disclosing any secrets I'm not supposed to disclose. | 25:44 | |
Interviewer | Okay. | 25:47 |
Did the military feel tense about | 25:49 | |
having lawyers come down at that early stage? | 25:52 | |
Not necessarily yourself, | 25:54 | |
but just what was the feeling of the military, | 25:55 | |
knowing that lawyers are now | 26:00 | |
going to be coming down to Guantanamo? | 26:01 | |
- | It was mixed, it just depends, but I think, | 26:04 |
put it into just a couple of words, | 26:09 | |
mission continues, basically would be the attitude. | 26:11 | |
Interviewer | And could you describe the, like, | 26:14 |
could you describe the CSRTs a little bit, | 26:17 | |
as to how you were involved with those? | 26:21 | |
I wanna go back to the lawyers coming down, | 26:25 | |
but before we go too far afield, | 26:26 | |
since you said you also were starting CSRTs at that time, | 26:29 | |
could you describe your involvement in that | 26:32 | |
and did you ever sit on any of those? | 26:34 | |
- | No, there was actually a different organization, OARDEC. | 26:37 |
I can't remember what it all stands for, | 26:41 | |
but O, A, R, D, E, C, something like that. | 26:43 | |
That was actually an organization that DOD set up | 26:47 | |
to run the CSRTs, just like for commissions, | 26:50 | |
they set up the office of military commissions | 26:54 | |
to oversee the commissions. | 26:56 | |
But because we were the JTF staff, | 27:00 | |
where the constant lawyers that were always present, | 27:03 | |
we had a lot of interaction with both OARDEC | 27:06 | |
and with OMC and all the lawyers that were players | 27:08 | |
in both of those processes. | 27:11 | |
So initially it was just basically logistics, | 27:14 | |
making sure we coordinated with, you know, | 27:18 | |
put the OARDEC people in touch | 27:20 | |
with the people down at the camps | 27:21 | |
who would be responsible for identifying a location | 27:23 | |
where these proceedings would be | 27:25 | |
and where people were going to be housed | 27:27 | |
and interacting with some of the people on the supply side | 27:29 | |
to make sure we had them in the right housing | 27:33 | |
and the right equipment that they needed. | 27:34 | |
A lot of logistics set up. | 27:36 | |
As far as the notification process I mentioned, | 27:39 | |
that was, I took the first chop | 27:41 | |
at the one page notification, | 27:44 | |
my predecessor, she was still there, | 27:46 | |
so she took a further chop being more experienced, | 27:48 | |
on how they wanted things run down there. | 27:50 | |
She chopped it up further. | 27:52 | |
And then Colonel Keys, the O-5, he took a chop | 27:53 | |
and then Mora and Lohr. | 27:57 | |
And it was sent up to DOD and DOJ | 27:59 | |
before that final one page notification was finalized. | 28:01 | |
So that was also part of the CRT getting that set up, | 28:06 | |
but getting a lot of our direction from Washington DC | 28:10 | |
and secretary of defense, I believe at the time, | 28:13 | |
was in his staff, was sending that down | 28:15 | |
what they wanted to see done | 28:17 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever sit in on any CSRT? | 28:19 |
- | No I know we've had visitors | 28:22 |
and I would go see where they, | 28:24 | |
the locations where they were, | 28:25 | |
but I never observed one person. | 28:26 | |
I would see the records that would come up | 28:29 | |
after a hearing was concluded. | 28:30 | |
And then as part of the habeas, we would have to get | 28:34 | |
I can't remember what the fact, | 28:40 | |
it was like a factual piece of paper | 28:42 | |
that we had to get determined | 28:45 | |
from what came out of the CSRT | 28:47 | |
to prepare, to send to DOD and DOJ | 28:50 | |
so they could present it to the district court. | 28:52 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever hear people saying | 28:56 |
that the CSRTs weren't really fair, | 28:58 | |
because they weren't allowed lawyers? | 29:00 | |
- | Oh yeah, I heard that all the time, | 29:03 |
even when the personal representative was not a lawyer | 29:04 | |
and there was no attorney client privilege and, you know | 29:06 | |
the rights that the distending was supposed to | 29:09 | |
have as far as witnesses, you know | 29:12 | |
if they were available, they could be produced. | 29:14 | |
Yeah, it was just unrealistic. | 29:16 | |
Interviewer | How did you feel about that? | 29:19 |
- | Well, I mean, a lot of things, | 29:21 |
contrary to how I thought justice should be sought | 29:25 | |
because before coming down to Guantanamo, | 29:30 | |
I had completed basically two defense billets | 29:33 | |
and, you know, a prosecution billet. | 29:35 | |
And I pretty much knew what due process was all about | 29:37 | |
from both sides of a case. | 29:40 | |
And it just didn't sit right with me seeing | 29:45 | |
some of the things I sat with, | 29:48 | |
but I didn't make any waves, | 29:49 | |
I went along and towed the line as I was instructed to do, | 29:52 | |
and basically carried out the mission. | 29:56 | |
But, yeah, a lot of things seemed very, | 29:57 | |
like we could have done things better. | 30:01 | |
Interviewer | Where did the personal representatives | 30:03 |
come from, who appointed them? | 30:05 | |
- | Well, that was all part of the audit process. | 30:06 |
And I believe they were even, | 30:09 | |
they weren't part of the JTF staff. | 30:10 | |
I think they were even flown in along with a lot | 30:12 | |
of the other, the panel that would be on these CSRTs. | 30:15 | |
So there's a lot of traffic coming through | 30:20 | |
as these things kicked off. | 30:22 | |
And a lot of faces that you never seen before | 30:23 | |
Interviewer | When you got down there, | 30:27 |
did you hear any rumors that | 30:28 | |
there might've been some mistreatment of the detainees? | 30:30 | |
- | Oh yes, because Abu Ghraib broke in April. | 30:32 |
So I know that was a focus for a lot of people | 30:36 | |
and a lot of organizations. | 30:41 | |
And even when I first got there, I mean, | 30:43 | |
there were six or eight, I believe that were, | 30:45 | |
I guess, substantiated and the press | 30:50 | |
was already reporting on that. | 30:52 | |
Particularly Carol Rosenberg and Paisley Dodds, | 30:53 | |
and they were constant thorns in the side of the JTF. | 30:57 | |
And that's how I picked up that other job | 31:02 | |
that wasn't originally my assignment, | 31:05 | |
was tracking allegation of abuse | 31:07 | |
because there was a six or eight that | 31:09 | |
if a different set of facts came up | 31:13 | |
or circumstances in the press | 31:15 | |
or others lawyers inquired about it, | 31:17 | |
it was just kind of hard to keep these confined. | 31:19 | |
These facts confined in six or eight different cases. | 31:24 | |
So that's why I started tracking it. | 31:26 | |
Interviewer | What does that mean, tracking it? | 31:28 |
- | I put it on an Excel spreadsheet | 31:30 |
going back to the beginning of the camp | 31:32 | |
and just finding all of the allegations, | 31:33 | |
just to make sure we kept it straight | 31:34 | |
to see was it investigated? | 31:36 | |
Was it substantiated? | 31:37 | |
You know, what is the outcome? | 31:39 | |
And just to make sure we had all | 31:41 | |
of our facts straight, if we're going to report that out. | 31:42 | |
Interviewer | And if it wasn't investigated | 31:45 |
or substantiated, did you assign it to someone? | 31:46 | |
- | Yeah, then we started assigning people to look into it, | 31:49 |
including new ones, if we had new investigations come up, | 31:52 | |
and then same with OARDEC, if when the CSRTs came up, | 31:55 | |
if a detainee, during a proceeding, alleged abuse, | 31:58 | |
then they were required to instruct me or the JTF staff | 32:03 | |
so that we could assign somebody to look into it. | 32:08 | |
Interviewer | And who was that somebody, | 32:10 |
what exactly did they do? | 32:11 | |
- | It varied, it just depends. | 32:12 |
I always used the coordinator | 32:13 | |
with the security person down at the detention operations. | 32:14 | |
And it depended on where it happened, | 32:18 | |
whether it was during detention | 32:19 | |
or was it during interrogation? | 32:21 | |
So depended on who you had to get involved. | 32:23 | |
Interviewer | And hat would be the result | 32:26 |
of those investigations? | 32:28 | |
- | Various results. | 32:30 |
I really can't say much more about that. | 32:33 | |
They were all classified. | 32:36 | |
Interviewer | When we spoke to Alberta Mora | 32:40 |
he told us that he heard about the abuse | 32:42 | |
from the NCIS people. | 32:44 | |
Were you around at that time? | 32:49 | |
- | No, that was before I even got there. | 32:51 |
And I believe his memo that he wrote regarding that | 32:54 | |
was written well before I got down there, I just, | 32:58 | |
I wasn't aware of it until after, well after I left. | 33:00 | |
Interviewer | You weren't aware of his memo were you? | 33:04 |
- | No, no. | 33:05 |
I had no idea that he had written that memo | 33:06 | |
until after, actually, | 33:09 | |
I was preparing for my own court martial | 33:11 | |
and that's when I came across his memo. | 33:12 | |
Interviewer | And did the NCIS people | 33:15 |
ever talk to you about what they picked up? | 33:16 | |
- | Well, actually, since I was the point of contact, | 33:19 |
any investigation that went on, | 33:22 | |
everything was kept there. | 33:24 | |
I tracked all allegations of abuse at Guantanamo, | 33:25 | |
so no matter where it derived from, | 33:27 | |
whether it was an NCIS investigation, FBI, | 33:29 | |
if it was OARDEC, | 33:32 | |
it all was stored there at the JTF legal office. | 33:35 | |
Interviewer | Did David Brandt work down in Guantanamo? | 33:40 |
- | That name is familiar, I believe- | 33:43 |
Interviewer | He was the NCIS directors. | 33:45 |
- | Yeah, that sounds like a very familiar name. | 33:47 |
If he was, if it's the same person I'm thinking of, | 33:49 | |
the same time when Gita was down there, | 33:52 | |
when she came to visit. | 33:54 | |
Interviewer | Did you have any impression | 34:00 |
of the lawyers who came down, | 34:01 | |
did you get to know most of them | 34:03 | |
who came down, it was your job- | 34:06 | |
- | A lot of them were familiar faces | 34:07 |
or people I've run across in the past. | 34:08 | |
I mean, Dan Maury, major Maury, | 34:10 | |
we had worked together before I even went | 34:12 | |
to the Army JAG School, I was overseas at Diego Garcia. | 34:15 | |
And he was stationed in Japan | 34:19 | |
and he was a defense attorney, | 34:20 | |
he had come to Diego Garcia for a court martial. | 34:21 | |
So that's when I first met him. | 34:23 | |
So, and then I'd seen him | 34:25 | |
at some trainings at the Army JAG School in the past. | 34:26 | |
So I was familiar with him. | 34:29 | |
I was familiar with Charlie Swift, | 34:31 | |
we had attended some trainings together. | 34:32 | |
Phil Sundale, I knew he was part | 34:38 | |
of the Navy JAG community. | 34:41 | |
Not very well, but knew of him. | 34:44 | |
So, and then various other | 34:46 | |
mostly Navy JAG or Marine Corps, JAG personnel, | 34:49 | |
I wouldn't know. | 34:52 | |
Interviewer | How long were you down there altogether? | 34:54 |
- | Six months. | 34:59 |
Interviewer | So did anything change | 35:00 |
before what we'll get to | 35:02 | |
before the incident to anything change in those early months | 35:04 | |
and just the way your job evolved? | 35:07 | |
You pretty much describe your day-to-day duties | 35:12 | |
and what's going on, did anything change? | 35:14 | |
- | Well, I became more focused | 35:16 |
on habeas and allegations of abuse investigations. | 35:18 | |
So that's why we ended up | 35:23 | |
getting a reservist army reservist to come down. | 35:26 | |
The first one, he came down for three months, | 35:29 | |
I believe starting sometime in August, maybe. | 35:31 | |
And then his relief came down in November, Colonel Lowry. | 35:36 | |
Interviewer | What were their jobs? | 35:40 |
- | To basically deal with, | 35:41 |
initially just the abuse allegations, | 35:45 | |
but then also the habeas, | 35:47 | |
the job that I wasn't supposed to have, | 35:48 | |
it wasn't part of the described duties of a deputy SJA, | 35:50 | |
but that became like my primary function was, | 35:56 | |
I was so busy with habeas and the allegations. | 35:58 | |
So that was their job was to deal with that. | 36:01 | |
So that the deputy could, | 36:04 | |
the deputy basically ran the office | 36:06 | |
because Colonel Keys, the primary SJA | 36:07 | |
would be so busy with other things, | 36:10 | |
dealing with the general commanding general. | 36:11 | |
Interviewer | So when you said | 36:15 |
you didn't speak to detainees earlier, | 36:17 | |
did you start speaking to them later on? | 36:19 | |
- | Yeah, not much as far as conversations, | 36:22 |
but just to deliver mail. | 36:25 | |
If they had concerns, the staff down at the detention, | 36:28 | |
Camp Delta or Camp Echo would call, | 36:33 | |
because a detainee would say, I want to see SJA. | 36:36 | |
And so sometimes I would get the call to come down | 36:38 | |
and then I would go down there to field their concern. | 36:40 | |
Interviewer | And could you resolve it also, | 36:44 |
did you have some authority? | 36:46 | |
- | Yeah, attempted to, a couple of occasions, | 36:47 |
sometimes it was mail that was, you know, | 36:49 | |
if there was an eight page letter that was censored, | 36:52 | |
they only received six pages, | 36:54 | |
you know, where are the other two pages? | 36:55 | |
So I would try to track that down | 36:56 | |
by going over to the right place | 36:57 | |
where the censors were and ask them to follow up, | 36:59 | |
if they can find these other two pages. | 37:02 | |
Interviewer | The censors were military personnel? | 37:04 |
- | Yes. | 37:05 |
Interviewer | Did you have any dealings | 37:07 |
with the ICRC, the Red Cross? | 37:10 | |
Yes, actually our office coordinated those visits | 37:12 | |
and that was like Colonel Keys function. | 37:15 | |
Anything dealing with them was his, | 37:17 | |
as far as reports back and forth, | 37:19 | |
between us and them. | 37:21 | |
But they would come down | 37:26 | |
for a period of time to do their visits. | 37:28 | |
And then at the end of the day | 37:30 | |
sometimes they would come with any concerns. | 37:32 | |
So if Colonel Keys wasn't in the office, | 37:35 | |
then I would take their concerns | 37:36 | |
on a yellow pad like you have there | 37:38 | |
and just take notes for Colonel Keys | 37:40 | |
to let him know, make him aware of the concerns they had | 37:41 | |
after their day's visit. | 37:45 | |
- | And how about diplomats from other countries, | 37:47 |
have you've ever interacted with them? | 37:51 | |
- | Yes, from the UK, I can't remember his name, | 37:52 |
but I remember when he came down | 37:54 | |
to see the British detainees, | 37:56 | |
he came to visit Begg, Abbasi, | 37:57 | |
I can't remember the other people, but that's | 38:01 | |
that's actually, when I toured the facility | 38:04 | |
for the CSRT just to, along with him. | 38:06 | |
And that was part of the tour that day. | 38:09 | |
Interviewer | But you wouldn't be in there | 38:12 |
when they met with those men or were you? | 38:14 | |
- | Yeah, well, I was present, yes. | 38:16 |
But for like two of them that were at Camp Echo, | 38:19 | |
I stayed outside the shack, I didn't go in. | 38:22 | |
For the ones that were in Camp Delta | 38:26 | |
they moved them over to the interrogation booths. | 38:27 | |
So I was actually on the other side, the window, | 38:31 | |
and I could see, but not hear, what was going on | 38:34 | |
Interviewer | I dunno if you want to or can, | 38:39 |
but can you give us your impressions of Begg and Abbasi? | 38:40 | |
- | Well, I think Moazzam Begg, | 38:45 |
I'd had more interactions with him. | 38:48 | |
The letters that he he wrote, | 38:52 | |
I believe one of them got released, | 38:55 | |
wasn't necessarily supposed to, but it came through us. | 39:00 | |
It's letters that he handed to me, | 39:04 | |
he handed two of them, one for his lawyer | 39:05 | |
and one for the JTF and the UK | 39:06 | |
and other people, US government. | 39:11 | |
And that's the one I guess | 39:14 | |
eventually made it to BBC through Gita or Gareth, who knows. | 39:14 | |
But yeah, not much other than that, | 39:20 | |
just for him to ensure that I got those to the right people. | 39:23 | |
Interviewer | And were they put in solitary | 39:27 |
because they were going to have trials | 39:29 | |
and military tribunals, is that why they were put in? | 39:32 | |
- | Yes, I believe that. | 39:35 |
That's was pretty well reported that the people | 39:36 | |
at Camp Echo were identified for commissions | 39:40 | |
or for the interviews with the habeas council. | 39:44 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever sit in on an interrogation? | 39:47 |
- | No. | 39:49 |
Interviewer | You didn't want to | 39:51 |
or that wasn't part of your job? | 39:52 | |
- | No, it wasn't part of mine. | 39:53 |
One of the O-3, lawyers, | 39:55 | |
the air force captain that was her role | 39:58 | |
to review a lot of the stuff | 40:01 | |
that was recently released on WikiLeaks. | 40:03 | |
Those assessment briefs, her job was to deal with that. | 40:05 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever meet Clive Stafford Smith? | 40:12 |
- | Yes, he came down once with Gita. | 40:14 |
So I met them both | 40:17 | |
on our side of the island. | 40:20 | |
- | Well, can you take us into what happened | 40:25 |
as we're going to, you know, | 40:31 | |
did you ever hear from any lawyers | 40:35 | |
before you heard from CCF and Barbara, | 40:36 | |
or did you ever get any lawyers who came down | 40:39 | |
to say to you, could we get the names of the detainees? | 40:41 | |
Did people ever say anything to you? | 40:45 | |
- | No. | 40:47 |
That was always coming through. | 40:48 | |
They were doing that up at the higher levels in DC. | 40:51 | |
And that was coming through to us from above. | 40:53 | |
Interviewer | Well, let me just, before I go there then, | 40:56 |
did Rumsfeld or Haynes or any of those people | 40:58 | |
ever come through while you were there? | 41:01 | |
- | No, not that I'm aware of. | 41:03 |
- | You never met any of them? | 41:05 |
- | I never saw them. | |
Interviewer | You never met any of them? | 41:06 |
- | No, no. | 41:07 |
But when you mentioned Clive Stafford a while ago, | 41:08 | |
he did send me a card after his visit to thank his escort. | 41:11 | |
So, I guess he had that pleasant experience | 41:15 | |
with a kind escort. | 41:17 | |
Interviewer | Did you change the protocol | 41:21 |
in terms of their lawyers visits while you were there | 41:23 | |
as you saw things happening, | 41:25 | |
you need to make some changes? | 41:27 | |
Yeah, things went, we were making it up as we went along, | 41:28 | |
because, we had it a certain way | 41:33 | |
based on how we thought it should be. | 41:37 | |
Then the lawyers would weigh in, | 41:40 | |
DOD, DOJ would weigh in | 41:44 | |
and if it couldn't be resolved in the court, would say, | 41:46 | |
this is how it's going to be. | 41:48 | |
So we had to work how we're going to be responsive | 41:49 | |
to the court's order and still try to be, | 41:52 | |
you know, insist on our procedures. | 41:57 | |
So yeah, it was a lot of changes every now and then. | 42:00 | |
Interviewer | So can you tell us then what happened when, | 42:04 |
with hearing about the list of names with how that happened? | 42:08 | |
- | Okay, it was near the end of my tour, | 42:14 |
tour of duty. | 42:17 | |
- | Did you know you were | |
only gonna be there six months, did you know that? | 42:18 | |
- | Yes, it's a six month tour of duty. | 42:19 |
Same with like the Iraq or Afghanistan. | 42:22 | |
The Navy billets were usually six months. | 42:24 | |
Air force was three months. | 42:26 | |
And sometime, I think they extended it | 42:27 | |
to four months when I was down there. | 42:29 | |
Army tours were one year. | 42:30 | |
So kind of knew how long | 42:32 | |
you were gonna be in a certain position. | 42:34 | |
So yeah, I knew I was gonna be leaving mid-January. | 42:36 | |
I may have already had orders by then. | 42:40 | |
You can't move unless you have orders. | 42:43 | |
And they usually issue those about a month before you leave. | 42:45 | |
So I had my orders. | 42:47 | |
I already knew who my relief was going to be. | 42:48 | |
He was coming and I believe | 42:50 | |
from Hawaii, was his prior assignment. | 42:51 | |
So this was probably December 21st when I saw the email | 42:56 | |
Interviewer | When did you first arrive down there? | 42:59 |
- | July 6th, I believe July 6th of 2004. | 43:01 |
So yeah that's, again, it's touchy, | 43:08 | |
but it's been publicly released already | 43:11 | |
as far as how it came about. | 43:13 | |
It was in my court martial, but it was attached | 43:15 | |
to an email coming from DOD and DOJ. | 43:18 | |
And I was just CC'd on it. | 43:22 | |
And it was basically going to be a proposed response | 43:24 | |
to Barbara Olshansky's letter. | 43:27 | |
Interviewer | Can you tell us what the letter said. | 43:29 |
- | Yeah, the letter was attached for reference, | 43:30 |
so we can know what the response was addressing. | 43:33 | |
And it's basically a five page letter asking for the names | 43:38 | |
of the detainees, their countries of origin, | 43:42 | |
the languages they speak, you know, | 43:45 | |
as much information as they can get | 43:46 | |
so they can either ascertain who was there | 43:48 | |
and determine whether they want habeas representation, | 43:50 | |
like the other 60 detainees, | 43:53 | |
or at least have enough information | 43:55 | |
to go to their countries of origin | 43:57 | |
to find family members, to see if the family member | 43:58 | |
would file habeas on their behalf, | 44:01 | |
which they could have done. | 44:04 | |
So that was basically it. | 44:05 | |
And in that letter, she laid out the history | 44:07 | |
ever since the Supreme Court | 44:09 | |
came down with its decision in June, | 44:11 | |
their efforts to identify the remaining | 44:13 | |
unidentified detainees who were unrepresented. | 44:16 | |
So as she described that in her letter | 44:18 | |
that was things that, you know, that rang true. | 44:21 | |
I mean, it was things that I had lived | 44:22 | |
in the past five months, the preceding five months, | 44:25 | |
that I knew she was right about her efforts | 44:28 | |
to obtain that information | 44:31 | |
and our reluctance or refusal to turn that over. | 44:32 | |
Interviewer | Before you go on, | 44:38 |
was it true that in fact | 44:40 | |
some people didn't know who was still in Guantanamo, | 44:42 | |
that it was still? | 44:46 | |
- | Yeah, there was no definitive list | 44:48 |
released until May of 2006, I believe it was, | 44:49 | |
so 15 months later, after I had left | 44:53 | |
is when the list was released | 44:56 | |
Interviewer | So it was possible people still didn't know? | 44:57 |
- | Yeah, I think there was, | 45:00 |
people had a general idea who was there | 45:02 | |
and then you got the Red Cross | 45:04 | |
but there was no definitive for certain who was still there. | 45:06 | |
And I think, you know, the first indication of | 45:12 | |
the population there was March 3rd of 2006. | 45:16 | |
And that's when a lot of the CSRT records were released | 45:19 | |
after some litigation by the associated press. | 45:22 | |
So then people were able to put together a pretty good list, | 45:26 | |
but it wasn't complete until May of 2006 | 45:30 | |
when DOD decided to release | 45:33 | |
the names and countries of origins of all 780 people | 45:36 | |
that had passed through Guantanamo at one point. | 45:40 | |
Interviewer | Okay, well, let's go back then. | 45:43 |
So the letter from Barbara Olshansky from CCR | 45:44 | |
was attached to a memo from the DOD | 45:48 | |
which said how are they going to respond to- | 45:51 | |
- | Yes, from an email, yeah, | 45:53 |
because we were the points of contact, | 45:54 | |
I was just CC'd, so she was, | 45:55 | |
the email was directed to Southern command and JTF. | 45:57 | |
And I was CC'd as I often was | 46:04 | |
in habeas issues. | 46:09 | |
But yeah, basically it was their proposed response | 46:13 | |
that I believe Alberto Mora was, had the initial draft, | 46:16 | |
but eventually it was actually a DOJ or DOD lawyer. | 46:21 | |
I can't remember. | 46:25 | |
He actually did the response, | 46:26 | |
which even though the response was dated | 46:28 | |
the 14th of January, the day before I left, | 46:30 | |
I didn't see that until well after I left the island. | 46:32 | |
Interviewer | So when you saw the first email, | 46:35 |
there was no response attached or what is their response? | 46:38 | |
- | There was a proposed response, yes. | 46:40 |
Yeah. there was a proposed response for our | 46:42 | |
Interviewer | Review. | 46:45 |
- | Review or, do we have any comment on it | 46:46 |
with her letter attached, | 46:49 | |
so the response was basically, | 46:50 | |
well they weren't gonna release the names. | 46:52 | |
Interviewer | Did they say why? | 46:55 |
- | I believe in the proposed response, they did say why. | 46:58 |
I mean, it's, the reasons have changed | 47:02 | |
and publicly in court, at my court martial, | 47:05 | |
the same person that sent me the email, | 47:08 | |
Karen Hecker from DOD, | 47:09 | |
she was the lawyer that I coordinated with in DOD. | 47:11 | |
She testified at my court martial | 47:14 | |
and she basically testified that they didn't know, | 47:15 | |
they knew they were going to say no, | 47:21 | |
but they just didn't come up | 47:22 | |
with the reason of why they were saying no. | 47:23 | |
And they eventually came up with, | 47:25 | |
it was their policy not to release names | 47:28 | |
of people that are confined during war time | 47:30 | |
and, you know, detainee privacy basically. | 47:34 | |
Not national security reasons. | 47:37 | |
Interviewer | That was the reason that | 47:40 |
they issued to the public? | 47:41 | |
- | Yes. | 47:43 |
Interviewer | But you don't, | 47:44 |
you obviously don't have to tell me, you can't tell me, | 47:45 | |
but there was another reason in the initial | 47:47 | |
proposed response that was different | 47:52 | |
from what you just described? | 47:54 | |
- | Yes. | 47:56 |
Interviewer | You can't tell me about that? | 47:57 |
- | No. | 47:58 |
Interviewer | Is that true that military is not obligated | 48:00 |
to reveal names under the Geneva conventions? | 48:05 | |
Do you know that? | 48:07 | |
- | Point to a specific citation of it? | 48:09 |
I don't know, I just know that we need to, | 48:11 | |
you know, treat them humanely. | 48:15 | |
If we're uncertain of their status | 48:18 | |
then the whole tribunal's to ensure competent tribunals, | 48:20 | |
to ensure they're properly identified as a POW or not. | 48:24 | |
Interviewer | Right. | 48:27 |
So then you saw that letter and then what happened? | 48:29 | |
- | Well, I mean, that's basically, it was | 48:33 |
like a wake-up call because I had been submerged | 48:36 | |
in a lot of the things, you know, | 48:39 | |
as over time would rub me wrong, | 48:42 | |
but I continued marching on, | 48:46 | |
not only the lack of due process, but the, | 48:50 | |
as I mentioned, I investigated all the allegations of abuse, | 48:54 | |
so the photos and videos that I had seen | 48:56 | |
that weighed on me as well. | 48:59 | |
And one thing I noticed over those preceding five months | 49:03 | |
is that the detainees who had representation, | 49:06 | |
they had an outlet, so the allegations of abuse | 49:09 | |
declined because they had that outlet. | 49:12 | |
It was like a different regiment | 49:14 | |
of treatment for the represented detainees | 49:15 | |
than the ones that were unrepresented. | 49:17 | |
So it was very beneficial to have representation | 49:18 | |
for their overall treatment. | 49:22 | |
So not only for humanitarian purposes, but for due process, | 49:24 | |
because all the legal processes down there | 49:29 | |
were self-contained within the executive branch, | 49:31 | |
within DOD, the commissions or the CSRTs, | 49:33 | |
habeas was the only external outside | 49:36 | |
of the executive branch and the judiciary. | 49:38 | |
And it was the only real legal process I saw | 49:41 | |
that was available. | 49:45 | |
Interviewer | So when you say it was a wake up call | 49:48 |
what does that mean? | 49:50 | |
- | Well, after reading her five page letter, | 49:51 |
laying out the law, laying out the history | 49:54 | |
of the attempts to comply with the law, | 49:55 | |
then it brought me back to, I guess, she's right, | 50:02 | |
and so was Admiral Hudson, Guter, Major Moore, | 50:07 | |
they're all right. | 50:11 | |
I mean, I'm on the wrong side of things here. | 50:12 | |
And knowing that we were not going to release the names, | 50:15 | |
knowing who my relief was going to be | 50:20 | |
and just knowing the general, | 50:21 | |
the atmosphere that we were operating there, | 50:25 | |
there was no way this, | 50:27 | |
these guys were ever going to be identified. | 50:29 | |
So, you know, is there something I can do? | 50:34 | |
I know you can't do it through proper channels | 50:37 | |
because I just, it was just top down, | 50:39 | |
there's no way this is going to be done properly. | 50:41 | |
Interviewer | So what were you thinking next then? | 50:46 |
Could you take us through it? | 50:48 | |
- | Well, I just think it is, you know, | 50:49 |
is there such a list that's responsive, first of all? | 50:52 | |
So just basically thinking, | 50:54 | |
should I release, try to gather a list for her | 50:59 | |
and if I did want to do that, is there such a list? | 51:01 | |
So just basically searching to see | 51:05 | |
is there a list like that anywhere? | 51:06 | |
And you know, all that information was over | 51:09 | |
on the low side computer and the high side computer | 51:11 | |
it was on the high side. | 51:15 | |
So, I mean, even though it was the classified computer, | 51:16 | |
I mean there was a whole bunch | 51:19 | |
of unclassified material on there. | 51:20 | |
So that's where I looked to find and see what | 51:23 | |
and you can do searches in the parameters I put in | 51:26 | |
with basically current detainees only, and their aliases. | 51:29 | |
So those are the only parameters I put in. | 51:34 | |
And that's when I, | 51:36 | |
it spit back the list of I think, 551 names. | 51:37 | |
Interviewer | And did you do that immediately | 51:41 |
after you saw the letter or did days past? | 51:42 | |
- | No, it was all within that timeframe. | 51:45 |
It's hard to say when I exactly had it together | 51:47 | |
because that was 21st of December when I saw the letter. | 51:52 | |
I didn't print out the list until January 2nd. | 51:54 | |
So there's some time in between that. | 51:57 | |
I'm not exactly sure. | 51:58 | |
Interviewer | And did you think about what you were doing? | 52:01 |
- | Occasionally, I mean it was very bus, | 52:05 |
you know, up-tempo was always high, | 52:07 | |
so usually when I thought about it was in bed at night | 52:09 | |
you know, am I going to go through with it, you know | 52:12 | |
and knowing over the proceeding five months, you know | 52:15 | |
people that have anything related to get more, | 52:18 | |
you know, our banks get checks. | 52:20 | |
So if they have anything, even if it's, FOUO. | 52:21 | |
it's not classified, I mean, | 52:24 | |
Interviewer | What's FOUD? | 52:26 |
For Official Use Only, | 52:26 | |
which is not classified, | 52:28 | |
but it still relates to Guantanamo | 52:29 | |
when you're not supposed to take that off the island. | 52:31 | |
And there had been Chaplain Yee and Al Halabi, | 52:34 | |
I believe, the Air Force guy, | 52:39 | |
were already prosecuted for taking information off. | 52:40 | |
A lot of it was not classified, but I mean, it just | 52:42 | |
I didn't want to put myself in a position | 52:46 | |
of having a list of names, leaving with half a list, | 52:47 | |
I'm not going to do it | 52:50 | |
through proper channels or through that way. | 52:51 | |
So it's just knowing | 52:53 | |
that I can't just take it off and, | 52:55 | |
what are gonna be the repercussions if I try that? | 53:00 | |
And there's just no way to do it that way, | 53:03 | |
so how could I do it without it being traced back to me? | 53:05 | |
I mean, cause there's still a concern about, you know, | 53:09 | |
I could be prosecuted, could ruin my career. | 53:11 | |
I came here to basically, I mean, coming down | 53:13 | |
there is career enhancing, but that's really gonna screw | 53:16 | |
up the career if I did something like that. | 53:19 | |
- | But you'd never list. | 53:22 |
When did you talk to anybody during that time? | 53:23 | |
- | No, I mean, and that's like a downfall. | 53:26 |
I mean, it's kind of hard to as well. | 53:27 | |
I mean, I'm getting ready to leave. | 53:29 | |
It's such an isolated community, | 53:31 | |
you know, legally and maybe I could've | 53:35 | |
gone to a congressperson, | 53:37 | |
but there's no congress person down there and communicating | 53:38 | |
with somebody it's, there's no way to do it confidentially. | 53:40 | |
And that's that's was part | 53:45 | |
of the hard part with, you know, with it being so isolated. | 53:47 | |
If I was at Jacksonville or something, I mean | 53:49 | |
there's a whole community out there that you can reach | 53:51 | |
out to, you know, and have some confidentiality | 53:54 | |
and bounce these ideas off somebody. | 53:57 | |
But even if I had that, I mean, | 54:00 | |
the result would have been don't do it. | 54:02 | |
And then, you know, could I sleep, | 54:08 | |
or live with myself for the rest of my life | 54:10 | |
knowing that who knows how this would have turned out | 54:13 | |
would these guys has been identified forever, | 54:16 | |
indefinitely, as their detention is, or what? | 54:21 | |
So, I mean, the only way to really do it | 54:24 | |
was to actually release the names. | 54:26 | |
Interviewer | So on January 2nd | 54:28 |
is when you printed it out. | 54:30 | |
How soon after did you, what'd you do next | 54:32 | |
- | Oh, just continue to weigh | 54:35 |
whether I was going to go through with it, | 54:37 | |
but with the list date in the office | 54:38 | |
we had a number of safes there for all kinds of information. | 54:41 | |
So it stayed there. | 54:44 | |
And the night before I left is when I mailed it. | 54:47 | |
Interviewer | And How do you have her address?o | 54:50 |
obviously it was easy to get. | 54:52 | |
= yeah, its easy. | 54:53 | |
And what were you thinking when you mailed it? | 54:55 | |
Did you think? | 54:58 | |
- | I mean, and that's where the sloppiness comes in, I guess, | 54:59 |
because it was like spur of the moment. | 55:02 | |
It was, you know, night before I left. | 55:04 | |
I mean, that's when I did it. | 55:05 | |
In a hurried manner, I did it, | 55:12 | |
I guess that's how I left the prints on it. | 55:13 | |
And it was just not really thinking through and just, | 55:15 | |
okay, I've decided I'm going to do it and doing it quickly. | 55:18 | |
And then before I changed my mind, I guess | 55:20 | |
so going up to the office and, you know | 55:23 | |
I had a greeting card already that I bought at the exchange | 55:26 | |
throwing it in there, sealing it, addressing it | 55:31 | |
taking it to the post office | 55:35 | |
and dropping it in, before, it was just very quick, | 55:37 | |
I mean, it's almost, it's hard sometimes | 55:40 | |
to think of what I was thinking at the time | 55:43 | |
as I was going through it. | 55:46 | |
But once I threw it in there, then it's like | 55:47 | |
there's no turning back. | 55:49 | |
I mean, it's in the mailbox now. | 55:50 | |
And so then I returned to my quarters and got ready | 55:52 | |
because it was like our farewell the last night there. | 55:55 | |
So we're going to be meeting later. | 55:58 | |
So I had a little window of opportunity, I guess | 55:59 | |
to do it without anyone noticing. | 56:02 | |
Interviewer | Why did you think, you know, | 56:09 |
you said you were sloppy, but why do you think | 56:10 | |
that people wouldn't know that you sent it? | 56:12 | |
- | Well, one of the things is, you know, I sent it to CCR. | 56:16 |
So I would think that it would, you know | 56:21 | |
that's one thing I guess, | 56:24 | |
is that you wouldn't expect that to be turned | 56:25 | |
over based on the history of that organization | 56:27 | |
and the history in this particular litigation. | 56:30 | |
So, I mean, maybe there was some comfort there | 56:35 | |
that I wouldn't have to worry about it. | 56:38 | |
You know, my worry was | 56:40 | |
it not making it off the island, | 56:43 | |
maybe the postal people would notice it | 56:44 | |
and that's why it went into a greeting card. | 56:47 | |
I mean, you know, and it was minimized, the list, | 56:49 | |
I minimized it before I printed it. | 56:52 | |
And so it was much smaller | 56:54 | |
and was able to fit into a greeting card. | 56:55 | |
And that's why I went up in a greeting card. | 56:59 | |
And that's what I mean, that was like my biggest fear | 57:01 | |
is that somebody in the post office might notice it. | 57:04 | |
Interviewer | What is minimizing. | 57:08 |
- | Well, before you print, I guess you couldn't. | 57:10 |
Instead of it being the full size | 57:11 | |
on a eight and a half, 11 size paper | 57:13 | |
and filling up that sheet, | 57:15 | |
it would maybe take up 50% of it. | 57:16 | |
And so when it prints out, it's much smaller print, | 57:20 | |
it's still on a eight and a half by 11 paper, | 57:24 | |
but then you can cut around | 57:27 | |
to where it only takes them half the page. | 57:29 | |
So you get a lot more one page. | 57:30 | |
Or a lot less room to take up an envelope, I guess. | 57:35 | |
So that's why it would fit into a greeting card. | 57:38 | |
Interviewer | So after you sent it off were you nervous | 57:40 |
or did you try to forget about it? | 57:43 | |
Or what were you? | 57:45 | |
- | Yeah, occasionally, but then I just, you know | 57:47 |
once I let it go, physically, I let it go. | 57:49 | |
Interviewer | You feel good that maybe | 57:53 |
you were making a difference? | 57:54 | |
- | Yes, and just seeing that, you know, the names, | 57:59 |
we're going to continue to not release those names | 58:02 | |
few months later, I guess, | 58:06 | |
now may was a whole year later whenever, | 58:10 | |
the day I got interrogated | 58:14 | |
or when they finally started investigating was March 3rd. | 58:16 | |
And then I just started researching and looking | 58:22 | |
into everything related to habeas. | 58:24 | |
And then that's when I discovered that Barbara Olshansky | 58:30 | |
had to go forward with filing habeas, | 58:32 | |
John Doe's one through 570. | 58:34 | |
So it seemed like it really was all for not | 58:37 | |
because she was able to at least proceed | 58:40 | |
and represent those unidentified detainees interest | 58:42 | |
by one through 570, you know, | 58:45 | |
but I was hoping that she would be able to | 58:49 | |
at least have the names to | 58:51 | |
to bring their habeas cases | 58:56 | |
and have these people identified. | 58:57 | |
Interviewer | Can you tell us what happened next | 58:59 |
as you understand it? | 59:01 | |
- | Well, after, I don't know what maybe she received, | 59:04 |
a couple of weeks later, mail was slow | 59:09 | |
and probably sometime early to mid-February | 59:13 | |
is when she actually, I guess, | 59:15 | |
started contacting people to find out | 59:18 | |
what to do with the list. | 59:20 | |
Not knowing if it was a set up by the government | 59:24 | |
to see if they would fall for the bait, | 59:26 | |
whether it was a hoax, | 59:29 | |
because it did come in a goofy Valentine's day card. | 59:31 | |
So was this a joke | 59:33 | |
because people knew she was looking for those names. | 59:35 | |
But I think she recognized some of the names as clients | 59:39 | |
and eventually after consulting with some people | 59:44 | |
I guess she eventually consulted with the clerk of court | 59:46 | |
to say that she received the list, | 59:49 | |
it's just the list that's responsive | 59:52 | |
to all the requests that she's been making. | 59:53 | |
And, and I guess that a red flag went off | 59:56 | |
with the judge who's who said you needed to turn it | 59:58 | |
over to the court security officer | 1:00:01 | |
who sent an FBI agent up to retrieve the list. | 1:00:02 | |
And then that's when the whole investigation started- | 1:00:06 | |
Interviewer | How long after did they find you? | 1:00:08 |
- | Probably following January, 2006, | 1:00:14 |
is when they narrowed down to me. | 1:00:17 | |
Interviewer | Really? | 1:00:18 |
- | Because, from what I can gather from the investigation | 1:00:19 |
is once they took the list, | 1:00:22 | |
they were just trying to figure out, you know, | 1:00:25 | |
where did it come from? | 1:00:26 | |
And so it was sent JDIMS, | 1:00:29 | |
the Joint Detainee Information Management System, | 1:00:32 | |
where those games came from. | 1:00:35 | |
It can be accessed | 1:00:37 | |
from other places since it's internet driven. | 1:00:38 | |
So it doesn't necessarily have to come from Guantanamo. | 1:00:43 | |
So they look at the people that had access, | 1:00:45 | |
I guess during that timeframe | 1:00:47 | |
or the population of the names, the 551 names, | 1:00:49 | |
when was that population on the island? | 1:00:53 | |
And then, so they can kind of narrows it down of the, | 1:00:56 | |
I think it was initially 240 some people | 1:00:59 | |
had access to that population at that time. | 1:01:01 | |
And then further narrowing it down. | 1:01:06 | |
Eventually it was like three | 1:01:08 | |
of us that went through major case prints | 1:01:10 | |
and the major investigation that I went through as far | 1:01:12 | |
as looking at fingerprints | 1:01:14 | |
going through handwriting samples | 1:01:17 | |
and then finally narrowing it down to me in January. | 1:01:21 | |
Interviewer | Oh, so you wrote a personal note | 1:01:24 |
on the letter too, | 1:01:26 | |
it was sample simple on the envelope envelope. | 1:01:27 | |
- | Envelope, mm-hmm. | 1:01:28 |
And where were you once you left the island? | 1:01:29 | |
Where were you next? | 1:01:32 | |
- | Well, I returned to Great Lakes | 1:01:34 |
because it was a temporary assignment. | 1:01:35 | |
Six month tour of duty. | 1:01:37 | |
I returned January of 2005. | 1:01:39 | |
And then in May of 2005 | 1:01:42 | |
I moved down to Jacksonville, Florida | 1:01:43 | |
and that was supposed to be my last tour | 1:01:46 | |
of duty before retirement. | 1:01:48 | |
Interviewer | And did you know that they were looking | 1:01:50 |
at that time for you? | 1:01:53 | |
- | No. I had no idea until March, 2003 or 2006. | 1:01:56 |
Interviewer | So, you had no idea | 1:02:00 |
they were looking for you | 1:02:01 | |
- | I had no idea. | 1:02:03 |
Interviewer | Did you even think about the letter anymore? | 1:02:05 |
- | No, just let it go. | 1:02:08 |
Just, I mean, like I said, when I physically let it go, | 1:02:09 | |
I just basically let it go | 1:02:11 | |
and didn't think about it anymore. | 1:02:13 | |
Didn't track it, didn't see anything | 1:02:15 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever wander what happened to it? | 1:02:18 |
- | No, no. | 1:02:21 |
I mean, it just got busy | 1:02:22 | |
with everything else that had to do back | 1:02:24 | |
in my other assignments that it just didn't track it | 1:02:27 | |
until after I got interrogated. | 1:02:31 | |
And then I started following more closely | 1:02:33 | |
on the habeas stuff. | 1:02:35 | |
Interviewer | So could you tell us | 1:02:36 |
how you got interrogated or what happened? | 1:02:37 | |
- | Well, that job I had in Florida, | 1:02:40 |
when I went down there May of 2005 | 1:02:45 | |
was as the senior prosecutor for that office. | 1:02:46 | |
So I worked a lot with the NCIS, | 1:02:50 | |
the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. | 1:02:52 | |
So if they were going to do some sort of sting operation | 1:02:55 | |
or they just wanted to talk about a case | 1:02:58 | |
I would often meet with them as a senior prosecutor. | 1:03:00 | |
And so that's what they did on, on a Wednesday | 1:03:03 | |
which was March 1st, they set up an appointment to come | 1:03:05 | |
over on Friday, March 3rd, to discuss the case. | 1:03:07 | |
And that's all I knew, it just seemed routine. | 1:03:10 | |
So when I went over there | 1:03:13 | |
I did meet the senior agent who I typically do at the door. | 1:03:14 | |
And you got to meet them | 1:03:17 | |
because they access or they it's controlled access. | 1:03:18 | |
So they escort you back to their offices. | 1:03:21 | |
But normally if we're meeting on a case, we would walk in | 1:03:25 | |
and go to the left to where the conference room was. | 1:03:27 | |
But this time we went straight ahead to a smaller room | 1:03:29 | |
which was kind of unusual | 1:03:32 | |
still not really expecting anything. | 1:03:34 | |
Then he introduces me to the FBI agent and the NCIS agent, | 1:03:36 | |
which a little bit different, but not unusual. | 1:03:39 | |
We've often done joint investigations | 1:03:42 | |
with other investigative agencies, okay. | 1:03:43 | |
Hello, and then he just, he left. | 1:03:48 | |
So, but that was unusual | 1:03:49 | |
because why isn't our local guy here? | 1:03:51 | |
These, you know, we've got an NCIS stranger | 1:03:53 | |
that I never met and this FBI guy. | 1:03:55 | |
So then it was a small room that they sent me down | 1:03:58 | |
and I sat at a desk and NCIS agent talked first | 1:04:00 | |
and said this is, we're doing an investigation | 1:04:04 | |
about down in Guantanamo about the JDIMS. | 1:04:07 | |
And I said, well, I'm familiar with JDIMS | 1:04:11 | |
And I know that system. | 1:04:13 | |
Interviewer | What is a JDIM? | 1:04:14 |
- | That's the Joint Detainee Information Management System. | 1:04:15 |
And that's where the list of names came from. | 1:04:17 | |
So before he got any further, though | 1:04:22 | |
that's when he gave me my rights advisement form. | 1:04:23 | |
And so then basically, you know, | 1:04:27 | |
they described the nature of the allegations | 1:04:28 | |
which was something about releasing classified information | 1:04:32 | |
or it had something to do with classified information. | 1:04:38 | |
So then that's when it clicked. | 1:04:39 | |
Okay, this is about the list. | 1:04:42 | |
So obviously I invoked my rights | 1:04:45 | |
and didn't make a statement, | 1:04:47 | |
but I had to give major case prints and writing samples. | 1:04:49 | |
It was about a two hour ordeal basically. | 1:04:54 | |
Interviewer | And I guess, can you tell us | 1:05:00 |
what happened next? | 1:05:04 | |
- | Well, I mean, immediately, | 1:05:06 |
it was this kind of was kind of weird to say | 1:05:09 | |
that was March 3rd of 2006. | 1:05:13 | |
And so I went home to wait that, you know, | 1:05:16 | |
they basically just wanted me to surrender my passport, | 1:05:22 | |
my government travel card, | 1:05:24 | |
but they didn't put me in any pretrial confinement. | 1:05:26 | |
They just had me go wait at home | 1:05:29 | |
and wait for the commanding officer | 1:05:31 | |
who happened to be out of town, I guess, | 1:05:32 | |
he was going to meet with me later that evening | 1:05:34 | |
and tell me what we're going to be doing next. | 1:05:36 | |
But while waiting at home to meet him, my dad called me, | 1:05:40 | |
he was in prison in California still. | 1:05:46 | |
And he told me, did you hear they released the names? | 1:05:51 | |
And that was odd. | 1:05:53 | |
I just went through this whole interrogation on that. | 1:05:56 | |
And that's when the CSRT lists had, | 1:05:58 | |
I guess the records of the CSRT | 1:06:00 | |
had come out and so it made the news | 1:06:02 | |
and it was like, wow, this is all on the same day. | 1:06:03 | |
But so I just waited until the commanding officer came home | 1:06:07 | |
and then met with him that evening. | 1:06:13 | |
And he was basically, | 1:06:14 | |
I was originally assigned in the Mayport side. | 1:06:15 | |
I was going to be assigned | 1:06:18 | |
to the NASJ side on the Admiral staff, | 1:06:19 | |
just doing non-legal work primarily. | 1:06:22 | |
pending the investigation. | 1:06:24 | |
So it was just basically sit and wait mode | 1:06:25 | |
for a few months because this was March | 1:06:29 | |
and I didn't get charged until August. | 1:06:32 | |
Interviewer | What did you get charged with? | 1:06:33 |
- | A number of different things, I mean, an orders violation | 1:06:37 |
for improperly mailing classified information. | 1:06:40 | |
So I violated the instruction on how to do that properly, | 1:06:43 | |
so that's orders violation. | 1:06:47 | |
Conduct on becoming an officer. | 1:06:48 | |
And the basis was to, for giving classified information | 1:06:53 | |
to a person who was unauthorized to receive it. | 1:06:57 | |
And then a number of counts under the Espionage Act, | 1:06:59 | |
for one, was willful, or with the intent | 1:07:03 | |
disclosing this national defense information | 1:07:08 | |
with the intent to harm my country | 1:07:10 | |
or advantage another nation. | 1:07:11 | |
And then the other counts were releasing this | 1:07:13 | |
information reasonably believing | 1:07:18 | |
that it could harm my nation or advantage another country. | 1:07:21 | |
Interviewer | When you went to trial, | 1:07:27 |
did you go through trial? | 1:07:28 | |
- | Yes, I went through a court martial. | 1:07:31 |
So I was charged August, 2006. | 1:07:33 | |
The court martial was the following May, 2007. | 1:07:34 | |
It was about a two week trial. | 1:07:37 | |
Well, the first week was a lot of motions | 1:07:41 | |
and jury selection. | 1:07:42 | |
And the second week was actual trial and sentencing. | 1:07:43 | |
Interviewer | In your court martial, | 1:07:46 |
were you allowed to explain your motivation? | 1:07:48 | |
- | No, and that was, I mean, there's a lot of things | 1:07:52 |
wrong with the trial, but I mean, | 1:07:56 | |
it's all the appeals are over with. | 1:07:58 | |
So it's final decision, | 1:08:00 | |
but no, we weren't allowed to raise anything to talk | 1:08:02 | |
about my true motives of why I did it. | 1:08:06 | |
We weren't allowed to talk about the abuse | 1:08:11 | |
allegations down there to justify my actions. | 1:08:12 | |
We couldn't discuss the Rasul decision | 1:08:17 | |
and the implications of habeas. | 1:08:19 | |
Couldn't talk about my oath as an officer, | 1:08:24 | |
my oath to the constitution, | 1:08:26 | |
or my responsibilities as an officer of the court, | 1:08:29 | |
as a lawyer, Kansas lawyer or a Navy JAG, | 1:08:33 | |
couldn't talk about any of that stuff. | 1:08:36 | |
So it was like kind of useless to even have me testify | 1:08:37 | |
because I wasn't able to talk about a lot | 1:08:40 | |
of the things and it would've just been | 1:08:42 | |
a berating by the government council, not look good. | 1:08:44 | |
So no, I didn't get to testify or didn't get to | 1:08:50 | |
present any of my information. | 1:08:52 | |
I did try to plead guilty to the article 133, | 1:08:54 | |
the conduct unbecoming charge, but the judge | 1:08:57 | |
didn't allow that because I wouldn't admit | 1:09:00 | |
that it was classified. | 1:09:01 | |
And we still challenged it was | 1:09:02 | |
whether the list was classified | 1:09:05 | |
Interviewer | Why wouldn't it be classified? | 1:09:06 |
- | Well, the names weren't classified, | 1:09:10 |
the thing wasn't marked classified at all, | 1:09:13 | |
it wasn't marked on the computer screen. | 1:09:16 | |
It wasn't marked on the document itself. | 1:09:17 | |
So it's supposed to be marked if it's gonna be classified. | 1:09:20 | |
Interviewer | How did the government | 1:09:26 |
justify it's classified then? | 1:09:28 | |
- | Well, the first person to classify it | 1:09:29 |
when they retrieved it, the person, | 1:09:31 | |
because of the lists, the names, | 1:09:33 | |
that's why he justified classifying it secret. | 1:09:35 | |
And he's the first person to put a secret stamp on it | 1:09:38 | |
but that's not why it was considered classified. | 1:09:40 | |
They said it was classified | 1:09:44 | |
because there was this alpha numeric code | 1:09:45 | |
of a source ID number. | 1:09:48 | |
So they said that's why it should have been classified, | 1:09:50 | |
but they went back later and they fixed it on the computer | 1:09:54 | |
so that anybody seeing that would notice, | 1:09:57 | |
you know, this is secret. | 1:09:59 | |
But because as I mentioned, that system had a bunch of, | 1:10:00 | |
they probably had more unclassified stuff | 1:10:03 | |
than they had classified stuff on it. | 1:10:05 | |
It's just that you could have classified information | 1:10:06 | |
only on this computer, | 1:10:08 | |
if you were gonna have classified information. | 1:10:09 | |
Interviewer | And what kind of sentence | 1:10:13 |
could you have gotten? | 1:10:14 | |
- | Well, initially with all the charges, | 1:10:15 |
it was like 36 and a half years. | 1:10:17 | |
By the time we got to trial, it was down to 24 years. | 1:10:20 | |
I was acquitted of that most serious offense, | 1:10:25 | |
willfully releasing that name | 1:10:28 | |
with the intent to harm my nation. | 1:10:30 | |
So that knocked it down to 14 years, | 1:10:32 | |
'cause that was 10 years itself. | 1:10:34 | |
But then the judge consolidated one | 1:10:37 | |
of the charges and so it made it 13. | 1:10:38 | |
What was on the table for the jury and the prosecutor asked | 1:10:40 | |
for seven years and they gave me six months. | 1:10:43 | |
Interviewer | The jury gave you six months? | 1:10:47 |
- | Yes. | 1:10:48 |
Interviewer | How do you feel about that? | 1:10:49 |
- | Well, when I was facing seven years, | 1:10:54 |
what the prosecutors asked for, really facing 13, | 1:10:56 | |
and the consensus from a lot of the community | 1:11:00 | |
of the JAG community was, you know, | 1:11:02 | |
this is like worth three years at least, | 1:11:04 | |
you know, I was relieved. | 1:11:06 | |
I mean, that's the tour of duty I get, | 1:11:07 | |
that's a tour of duty on a ship. | 1:11:09 | |
So it wasn't gonna be the years | 1:11:11 | |
that I was going to be separated from my family. | 1:11:13 | |
Interviewer | And where were you placed/ | 1:11:15 |
- | Initially in Norfolk for the first three weeks. | 1:11:18 |
'Cause that's where the trial was, | 1:11:21 | |
and it was in Norfolk, Virginia. | 1:11:22 | |
Then eventually I was transferred down to South Carolina | 1:11:24 | |
the Brig in South Carolina. | 1:11:27 | |
Interviewer | The same Brig where Jose Padilla and- | 1:11:28 |
- | Yes, and Al-Mari, | 1:11:30 |
Al-Mari was actually still there when I was there | 1:11:31 | |
Interviewer | Were you nearby him? | 1:11:33 |
- | We were both in alpha block. | 1:11:34 |
He was an alpha one. | 1:11:36 | |
I was an alpha two. | 1:11:37 | |
Interviewer | Could you talk to him? | 1:11:38 |
- | No, no, no, no. | 1:11:39 |
They actually did the same, the Guantanamo treatment | 1:11:40 | |
with the green mesh around his fenced in area. | 1:11:42 | |
And we had no contact with him and only his guards. | 1:11:45 | |
I mean, they did the same procedures of covering | 1:11:50 | |
up their name tapes as they went to serve him food. | 1:11:52 | |
Interviewer | You knew he was there? | 1:11:56 |
- | Oh yeah. | 1:11:58 |
Interviewer | Because of your work? | 1:11:59 |
- | Yeah, following the press from before I knew that | 1:12:01 |
I guess there were three people, | 1:12:03 | |
I think Hamdi, Padilla and Al-Mari, right? | 1:12:04 | |
Interviewer | Yeah. | 1:12:08 |
- | So yeah, I knew he was still there | 1:12:09 |
and then we still got two different newspapers every day. | 1:12:10 | |
So if a story came up | 1:12:13 | |
and it would be on the local paper | 1:12:15 | |
Interviewer | And Yee wasn't there anymore, I guess? | 1:12:19 |
- | No, no, his case was well over by the time I. | 1:12:21 |
Interviewer | And what is green mesh? | 1:12:24 |
I didn't know about that, what exactly? | 1:12:25 | |
- | Well I mean, I've been thinking of, | 1:12:27 |
it's been publicly released when you look at Camp Delta, | 1:12:29 | |
it's the fencing around the, it's all green mesh, | 1:12:31 | |
like the tennis courts | 1:12:35 | |
or whatever you would see, you can't see inside. | 1:12:37 | |
Interviewer | Did you have any regrets at that time? | 1:12:40 |
- | Well, there's a lot of regrets that I have, | 1:12:45 |
you know, primarily to my family | 1:12:50 | |
for putting them through that | 1:12:53 | |
and taking away a lot of stuff that | 1:12:54 | |
that they could have had that they can't have now | 1:12:57 | |
because of what I had done, | 1:13:01 | |
but also on the professional side, | 1:13:04 | |
the person that followed me, | 1:13:06 | |
or others that follow in my position. | 1:13:08 | |
I mean, they may not have that necessarily | 1:13:11 | |
that trust that the commander | 1:13:14 | |
is supposed to have in their lawyers. | 1:13:15 | |
So yeah, there's a regret there | 1:13:17 | |
that I set them up for for having that on them. | 1:13:18 | |
But yeah, but then I dunno, I have to weigh that on | 1:13:26 | |
not knowing the future and that, you know, | 1:13:29 | |
a whole year or some later | 1:13:31 | |
that these names are gonna be released. | 1:13:32 | |
You know, what if that never happened? | 1:13:34 | |
Because the way things were going, I mean, you know | 1:13:36 | |
the Bush administration had just been reelected | 1:13:38 | |
and they had been fighting tooth and nail all the way | 1:13:42 | |
up to the Supreme Court to have any kind | 1:13:45 | |
of favorable action with regard to the detainees down there. | 1:13:49 | |
So not knowing, you know, at that point | 1:13:52 | |
they were not going to release the names. | 1:13:55 | |
It wasn't until March of 2006 | 1:13:58 | |
they decided not to appeal that district court opinion. | 1:14:00 | |
I mean, they could have, and I could have taken | 1:14:02 | |
that all the way up to Supreme Court. | 1:14:04 | |
So, I mean, it might've been years | 1:14:05 | |
before that lists of names would have been released. | 1:14:06 | |
I mean, they still could have been unidentified | 1:14:08 | |
until the Supreme Court ruled. | 1:14:11 | |
So they decided not to appeal it just a court opinion | 1:14:12 | |
and the name started coming out, | 1:14:15 | |
but I had no idea that was gonna happen. | 1:14:16 | |
So knowing, you know, the way things were at that time | 1:14:18 | |
nobody was going to identify who was down there. | 1:14:24 | |
So could I have lived with myself if I didn't do that? | 1:14:27 | |
So it's like the impacts, you know, | 1:14:29 | |
on me, my wife and daughter at the time, | 1:14:32 | |
versus these 551 individuals, | 1:14:35 | |
versus these JAGS that may be not trustworthy in the future. | 1:14:39 | |
So that was my, as I think through it, | 1:14:44 | |
those sorts of things that I kind of, | 1:14:47 | |
how I can continue to live with myself. | 1:14:49 | |
Interviewer | Did you ever get people telling you | 1:14:51 |
they were proud of your work or not proud of your work? | 1:14:53 | |
Did you get that? | 1:14:56 | |
- | Yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, | 1:14:57 |
Tim Golden wrote the article | 1:14:59 | |
and there was one particular individual, | 1:15:01 | |
a lawyer out of Nebraska. | 1:15:04 | |
He actually is responsible | 1:15:08 | |
for getting me the employment that I have now | 1:15:11 | |
and have had for the past three years, | 1:15:13 | |
because it was he read that article and he was able to get | 1:15:15 | |
in touch with me just to say | 1:15:19 | |
if I ever needed anything, let him know. | 1:15:21 | |
Interviewer | What kind of work are you doing now? | 1:15:26 |
- | Now I work at the Bronx Defenders. | 1:15:27 |
It's a public defender organization up in the Bronx. | 1:15:30 | |
So they mainly do criminal defense. | 1:15:35 | |
They do family defense and some civil action practice. | 1:15:36 | |
I'm a community intake advocate. | 1:15:41 | |
So any non-client that comes through the doors | 1:15:43 | |
seeking any kind of legal assistance, I screen their issues. | 1:15:46 | |
And if we can help them, then I'll refer them | 1:15:49 | |
to a lawyer within the office that can help them. | 1:15:51 | |
If we can't, then I'll try to find a place | 1:15:52 | |
in the community that can help them with their legal issue. | 1:15:55 | |
Interviewer | And you got this job through- | 1:15:57 |
- | Yes. | 1:15:59 |
Through David Terrell is his name. | 1:16:00 | |
Yeah, so he put me in touch with, | 1:16:04 | |
well, actually he was in touch with me | 1:16:06 | |
when I was still living in Florida. | 1:16:08 | |
Just let me know he was out there if I ever needed anything. | 1:16:11 | |
Or if I ever wanted to relocate to Nebraska, | 1:16:13 | |
you know, he lined me up with work, | 1:16:16 | |
but what I had been doing was substitute teaching | 1:16:20 | |
in Jacksonville, Florida. | 1:16:23 | |
So I was going to try a new career | 1:16:24 | |
since it seemed like my legal career was over. | 1:16:25 | |
But the school system down there rejected me | 1:16:29 | |
because of my Guantanamo conviction. | 1:16:32 | |
So it was gonna be hard to find any work | 1:16:34 | |
in that school community down there. | 1:16:37 | |
And then I couldn't find any paralegal work in Florida. | 1:16:38 | |
It was just too tough. | 1:16:40 | |
So that's why I decided I was going to try | 1:16:42 | |
the teaching career, see if that would be better | 1:16:44 | |
and doing it for as substitute teacher | 1:16:47 | |
from November of 2007, till May of 2008 | 1:16:50 | |
I decided I would try that career route. | 1:16:54 | |
And when I did a search on the internet | 1:16:57 | |
I came across the New York City teaching fellows. | 1:16:59 | |
And that's basically what brought me up here. | 1:17:01 | |
I applied in January of 2008. | 1:17:03 | |
I was accepted. | 1:17:05 | |
So I came up in June of 2008 | 1:17:06 | |
and went through the seven week program. | 1:17:08 | |
I disclosed my Guantanamo conviction | 1:17:11 | |
and that I had been dismissed from the Navy | 1:17:12 | |
and that I had my law license temporarily suspended, | 1:17:15 | |
but I went through the seven week training | 1:17:20 | |
to master's level courses | 1:17:22 | |
towards my masters in education | 1:17:24 | |
and five weeks of teaching a summer school class | 1:17:26 | |
in Harlem, a fourth grade class. | 1:17:29 | |
Then about two weeks | 1:17:34 | |
before the school year was supposed to start | 1:17:35 | |
they notified me not to report | 1:17:37 | |
to any more teaching fellows programs | 1:17:39 | |
because of the Guantanamo conviction. | 1:17:40 | |
So they dumped me from that. | 1:17:43 | |
And that's when I contacted David Terell, | 1:17:45 | |
that basically told them, you know, | 1:17:47 | |
update him, this is where I am now. | 1:17:49 | |
I'm about to be homeless | 1:17:52 | |
because my house was going through foreclosure | 1:17:53 | |
and jobless again. | 1:17:55 | |
So he got in touch with David Feige, | 1:17:57 | |
who worked with the Bronx Defenders. | 1:17:59 | |
And then David was able to get me | 1:18:01 | |
set up with Robin Steinberg, | 1:18:03 | |
the executive director who interviewed me. | 1:18:05 | |
And we found that position for me. | 1:18:08 | |
So as of September, 2008, and you know | 1:18:10 | |
I'd been working there since then. | 1:18:12 | |
And so I owed that to David, | 1:18:13 | |
and the question was about any outreach, | 1:18:15 | |
so it'd be people of support, | 1:18:17 | |
and David Terrell is the primary one. | 1:18:19 | |
I mean, I owe my job to him. | 1:18:21 | |
Interviewer | And why did the New York school system | 1:18:24 |
first accept you and then two weeks to go change its mind? | 1:18:27 | |
Do you know what happened? | 1:18:31 | |
- | I'm not sure, when I met with the investigator, | 1:18:32 |
'cause I still returned, after the seven weeks, | 1:18:34 | |
I returned to Florida because that's where I started out | 1:18:36 | |
from and get ready to move back up to New York. | 1:18:38 | |
And that's when I was notified about not to report anymore | 1:18:42 | |
but I still return to talk to the investigator. | 1:18:45 | |
And he told me that, you know, | 1:18:48 | |
my background check was clean. | 1:18:49 | |
There was no criminal record in my background check | 1:18:51 | |
'cause now they do fingerprints and check your record. | 1:18:53 | |
But it was what I disclosed on my application | 1:18:55 | |
as far as being, you know, | 1:18:57 | |
being convicted at the court-martial | 1:18:58 | |
so that's a conviction | 1:19:01 | |
and they felt that that was not | 1:19:02 | |
up to standards for a teacher in New York City. | 1:19:06 | |
So that was basically it. | 1:19:08 | |
And I guess if I had the, | 1:19:09 | |
I could have challenged that, | 1:19:14 | |
but I mean that could have taken a long time to, | 1:19:15 | |
to litigate that, go through a hearing | 1:19:17 | |
and then be denied and then have to go to court over it. | 1:19:19 | |
It just would have been a lot of trouble. | 1:19:21 | |
So I was fortunate when I did reach out to David | 1:19:23 | |
he did find me, somebody that was able | 1:19:26 | |
to hook me up with employment | 1:19:28 | |
and it's in an area that I like. | 1:19:30 | |
It's something that I really wanted to do anyways, | 1:19:32 | |
but I was having trouble finding work | 1:19:34 | |
when I was down in Florida. | 1:19:37 | |
So that's why I decided to transition into teaching. | 1:19:38 | |
But so it brought me back to, you know, | 1:19:40 | |
what I really wanted to do. | 1:19:42 | |
I mean, that's why I became a lawyer | 1:19:43 | |
in the first place was to practice law in | 1:19:44 | |
or at least get as close to the battle as I can. | 1:19:47 | |
Interviewer | Didn't you also get an award | 1:19:49 |
from some organization for your work? | 1:19:51 | |
- | Yes, The Ridenhour, the Truth-Telling Prize. | 1:19:53 |
So that was in 2008. | 1:19:57 | |
Interviewer | Can you just tell us briefly | 1:20:00 |
what that was about? | 1:20:02 | |
- | Well, they usually give out a number of prizes, | 1:20:04 |
one for courage, a book prize, truth-telling, | 1:20:06 | |
and it's all related to right now, | 1:20:09 | |
we're in this is reporting on the end disclosing | 1:20:11 | |
of the the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam. | 1:20:15 | |
So it's all based on that. | 1:20:17 | |
So I guess I was contacted sometime in February | 1:20:22 | |
maybe about I was being considered for it. | 1:20:25 | |
And would I be willing to come up | 1:20:29 | |
and accept it and talk about it and all of that stuff? | 1:20:31 | |
Interviewer | How was that for you? | 1:20:34 |
- | It was awesome. | 1:20:37 |
It was great to, you know, to be recognized for, you know | 1:20:38 | |
as opposed to being criticized | 1:20:44 | |
and prosecuted and imprisoned for my act. | 1:20:47 | |
It was good to be recognized for my act as a good thing | 1:20:49 | |
as opposed to being a bad thing. | 1:20:53 | |
Interviewer | Do you still meet people today? | 1:20:56 |
I think we're almost done, I have a few more questions, | 1:20:57 | |
but you still meet people today | 1:20:59 | |
who know your name or who say something to you? | 1:21:00 | |
- | Not by sight, but rarely by name, I guess, | 1:21:05 |
but no, I mean, not really. | 1:21:08 | |
Even at work when I first started at the Bronx Defenders, | 1:21:15 | |
I mean, I didn't disclose it | 1:21:18 | |
or talk about it other than through the management | 1:21:19 | |
but it didn't take long, I guess after some time | 1:21:23 | |
because participating in some of the discussions | 1:21:25 | |
and some of the issues that I knew more | 1:21:29 | |
than other people in that position I guess would know | 1:21:31 | |
is like talking like a lawyer. | 1:21:34 | |
So I guess somebody Googled me at one point | 1:21:36 | |
and they saw the story and then it just, | 1:21:38 | |
it got out, so yeah. | 1:21:40 | |
I mean, people know, I guess. | 1:21:43 | |
Interviewer | Did people change | 1:21:44 |
their attitude towards you? | 1:21:45 | |
- | Yeah, some I would think, yeah. | 1:21:47 |
Interviewer | Have you ever met any people you worked with | 1:21:52 |
since you've been out that have said anything to you? | 1:21:55 | |
- | Mm, no. | 1:21:58 |
Not since I've been out. | 1:22:00 | |
It was tough, I mean, | 1:22:02 | |
getting all the, I was in, | 1:22:03 | |
I guess up to about 10 years | 1:22:06 | |
by the time it went through my court martial, maybe 12. | 1:22:08 | |
And so trying to get people to submit an affidavit | 1:22:11 | |
or statement or to testify was tough. | 1:22:14 | |
I mean, I, over those previous 12 years | 1:22:16 | |
I sent out emails to, you know, a mass email | 1:22:19 | |
to a bunch of different people to that I've come | 1:22:21 | |
across in those 12 years to, you know, to get some support. | 1:22:23 | |
And I maybe got four or five people to submit letters. | 1:22:26 | |
It's just hard to get put the | 1:22:30 | |
their neck on the line, I guess, for something like that. | 1:22:32 | |
Interviewer | And then maybe your supervisors | 1:22:36 |
or people who work with you ever came | 1:22:38 | |
out and talked to you after that incident? | 1:22:40 | |
- | No, no, it's just basically no contact | 1:22:44 |
with anybody in the military anymore. | 1:22:47 | |
Interviewer | When Obama was elected | 1:22:52 |
do you have any thoughts about that? | 1:22:53 | |
- | My pardon was one was, yeah. | 1:22:57 |
Interviewer | Are you applying for one? | 1:23:01 |
- | No, not yet. | 1:23:03 |
I mean, part of the reason was waiting | 1:23:05 | |
for the criminal appeals to be over with. | 1:23:06 | |
And there was a firm here in Manhattan | 1:23:11 | |
that was looking into a lot of my, | 1:23:18 | |
I guess my issues and looking at the appeals | 1:23:20 | |
and some of the cases that have been already been decided | 1:23:22 | |
but I haven't pursued it anymore. | 1:23:27 | |
And I don't know if they're still interested or not | 1:23:29 | |
but we'll have to see. | 1:23:31 | |
- | And do you think that Guantanamo will ever close? | 1:23:33 |
- | Not at the rate we're going. | 1:23:38 |
And if we end up getting a Mitt Romney or something, | 1:23:41 | |
I mean, I remember him saying we needed more Guantanamo. | 1:23:43 | |
So I mean, it's hard to say. | 1:23:45 | |
I mean, even if Guantanamo closes, | 1:23:49 | |
it doesn't mean, Bagram, that's getting bigger | 1:23:50 | |
and who knows where else? | 1:23:53 | |
Diego Garcia is pretty isolated. | 1:23:58 | |
Who knows what's out there. | 1:23:59 | |
I mean, it's so far removed. | 1:24:00 | |
I don't think anybody's going to ever know. | 1:24:01 | |
Interviewer | Did you, I guess just come back, | 1:24:04 |
did you know about the extraordinary renditions, | 1:24:05 | |
just in your work? | 1:24:08 | |
I mean and what you read in the papers, | 1:24:09 | |
did you hear about that through your work? | 1:24:11 | |
- | No. | 1:24:14 |
- | And did you meet Diane Beaver when you were down there? | 1:24:15 |
- | No, but her name was, | 1:24:18 |
yeah, because she was in Colonel Keys position. | 1:24:21 | |
A couple of JAGS, I think there was one in between them. | 1:24:24 | |
So she was like two assignments before. | 1:24:27 | |
- | Is there something else I didn't ask you about Matt | 1:24:31 |
that you would like to address? | 1:24:33 | |
I think maybe Louise's got a question. | 1:24:36 | |
Johnny | I have one too. | 1:24:38 |
Interviewer | Okay. | 1:24:39 |
(indistinct chattering) | 1:24:40 | |
Louise would like to know, would you do it again? | 1:24:48 | |
- | That's a tough one to answer | 1:24:52 |
because I'm still trying to get admitted to New York bar | 1:24:52 | |
and I'm trying to prevent my disbarment from Kansas. | 1:24:55 | |
I just went through a disbarment proceeding in Kansas | 1:24:59 | |
on October 19th. | 1:25:01 | |
I'm still waiting for them to make their recommendation. | 1:25:04 | |
And I think I mentioned it's, you know, | 1:25:09 | |
could I live with myself and knowing the facts as they were? | 1:25:11 | |
Knowing how it turned out, maybe not, | 1:25:16 | |
knowing that there was, Barbara Olshansky was able to | 1:25:19 | |
file this habeas petition, John Doe's one through 570, | 1:25:23 | |
and then eventually the list of the names got released | 1:25:28 | |
that I didn't need to do it, but not knowing that | 1:25:30 | |
and given the exact situation. | 1:25:35 | |
It's hard to say that I wouldn't do it again, | 1:25:41 | |
but maybe smarter. | 1:25:43 | |
Interviewer | Johnny? | 1:25:46 |
Johnny | I'm curious if you've had any contact | 1:25:48 |
with Barbara Olshansky since you mailed the letter, | 1:25:51 | |
and if so, what she said to you? | 1:25:55 | |
- | Yes, actually, she testified at my court martial. | 1:25:58 |
She's very apologetic. | 1:26:03 | |
And I apologized to her for putting her in that position. | 1:26:04 | |
I mean, we both set ourselves up | 1:26:07 | |
for unintended consequences on both of our lives, | 1:26:10 | |
because she's facing a lot of criticisms herself, | 1:26:13 | |
you know, and I don't know if many people know, | 1:26:18 | |
but I mean, she's basically saying | 1:26:22 | |
this was a decision made beyond her, | 1:26:25 | |
not just her and she's the bad guy left holding the bag, | 1:26:28 | |
because she's her name is attached to it. | 1:26:32 | |
But there was others involved that made a decision | 1:26:34 | |
to turn that list over. | 1:26:36 | |
She was not high enough up the totem pole | 1:26:39 | |
to make that decision, | 1:26:41 | |
but yeah, talked to her at my court martial, | 1:26:45 | |
she actually wrote a seven page letter | 1:26:49 | |
for my sentencing phase of my trial. | 1:26:51 | |
So the jury could understand everything | 1:26:55 | |
that was going on at Guantanamo. | 1:26:56 | |
Interviewer | Oh, so she could say | 1:26:58 |
what you couldn't say? | 1:26:59 | |
- | Yeah, and well, | 1:27:01 |
I think that's partly why I got the six month confinement | 1:27:03 | |
sentence, because at my sentencing phase, | 1:27:05 | |
I was able to make a statement | 1:27:06 | |
because it a little bit different rules | 1:27:09 | |
and the government got their conviction | 1:27:10 | |
so they don't care as much | 1:27:13 | |
of what I could testify at sentencing to get. | 1:27:15 | |
So the jury can understand me completely to | 1:27:17 | |
sentence me appropriately. | 1:27:20 | |
And that's when they understood my motivations | 1:27:21 | |
of why I did what I did. | 1:27:23 | |
Interviewer | You were enabled to discuss. | 1:27:24 |
- | Enabled to discuss about the abuse allegations | 1:27:25 |
and how detainees that were represented were, | 1:27:27 | |
you know, abuse allegations went down. | 1:27:29 | |
It was a different regiment of treatment | 1:27:31 | |
for those detainees as opposed to ones unrepresented. | 1:27:33 | |
So they heard all that information and all my motivation. | 1:27:35 | |
And we think that's why | 1:27:39 | |
they only sentenced me to six months. | 1:27:41 | |
Interviewer | Did Gita testify at your court martial? | 1:27:45 |
- | No, no. | 1:27:47 |
I believe at the motions phase, we had some motions | 1:27:48 | |
before that because you know, the government had access | 1:27:52 | |
to a lot of, you know, my personal emails and a lot | 1:27:56 | |
of attorney work product during the build-up to the case. | 1:27:59 | |
And they were going after emails between me and Gita. | 1:28:04 | |
And initially I had consulted her when I was first | 1:28:08 | |
investigated March 3rd of 2006. | 1:28:10 | |
She was the first person I contacted for representation. | 1:28:12 | |
So our communications were attorney-client. | 1:28:16 | |
And that's what the government was trying to get at, | 1:28:18 | |
was trying to get our communications when | 1:28:19 | |
I first contacted her. | 1:28:21 | |
So they went through all of my AOL emails, | 1:28:23 | |
including all my attorney work product, | 1:28:25 | |
my communications with my defense team. | 1:28:27 | |
But, no. | 1:28:32 | |
So she submitted a statement basically with regard | 1:28:33 | |
to that and how she was my lawyer initially | 1:28:36 | |
and how we had that relation. | 1:28:41 | |
Interviewer | Is this something else Matt | 1:28:46 |
that I didn't ask you if you just want to share with us? | 1:28:47 | |
- | Well, I mean, | 1:28:51 |
looking back, you know | 1:28:55 | |
the experiences that I've had, | 1:28:58 | |
after, you mentioned the Ridenhour | 1:29:00 | |
and I know Fertel, Randy Fertel, | 1:29:02 | |
the individual that's responsible | 1:29:07 | |
for putting together the Ridenhour prizes, | 1:29:09 | |
I read where he had written | 1:29:14 | |
that people that are gonna be whistleblowers | 1:29:16 | |
or truth tellers and put their careers on the line, | 1:29:18 | |
you know, don't do it because it's not an easy, | 1:29:22 | |
soft landing, you know, words to that effect, | 1:29:25 | |
but I can vouch that that's exactly true. | 1:29:28 | |
You know, you've got the Bradley Manning's | 1:29:32 | |
and you've got the other whistleblowers out there that are | 1:29:33 | |
you know, we're witnessing that | 1:29:38 | |
it's no easy feat and, and | 1:29:40 | |
and you get treated pretty harshly if you act | 1:29:41 | |
on your conscience or if you act on the | 1:29:45 | |
the stated values of what we're supposed to stand | 1:29:47 | |
for as a country, that it is no easy landing. | 1:29:50 | |
And it's sometimes it leads | 1:29:55 | |
to bitterness because you do get the slap | 1:29:57 | |
on the back saying, well done, good job, | 1:30:00 | |
wish I had your courage or something to that effect. | 1:30:02 | |
But then it's like, but I'm still put down. | 1:30:04 | |
I'm still in the gutter. | 1:30:10 | |
And it's like, where's the support? | 1:30:11 | |
You know, I'm lucky. | 1:30:14 | |
I'm fortunate to be where I am now | 1:30:15 | |
and have the job I have, but it's still a very, | 1:30:17 | |
I think there's still another shoe that's about to drop. | 1:30:20 | |
You know, I mentioned the foreclosure and you know, | 1:30:22 | |
there's been a car repossessed, | 1:30:26 | |
but other debt collectors are still breathing down my neck. | 1:30:27 | |
So things are gonna still fall | 1:30:29 | |
and I'm still facing the repercussions | 1:30:31 | |
of maybe being disbarred in Kansas | 1:30:33 | |
and maybe never being admitted in New York. | 1:30:35 | |
So it is that's still true, what Randy Fertel said | 1:30:41 | |
is there is no soft landing. | 1:30:45 | |
So maybe reconsider, which is sad because | 1:30:47 | |
if we don't have the people that are going to | 1:30:52 | |
stand up for the truth and who knows what | 1:30:54 | |
the government's going to be doing or continuing to do | 1:30:58 | |
if people aren't willing to take these actions | 1:31:01 | |
knowing that there's not going to be some support | 1:31:04 | |
on the other end of that and make it a softer landing | 1:31:07 | |
Interviewer | Listen, I wasn't going to say this, | 1:31:13 |
but I mean, it doesn't sound like you ever thought | 1:31:14 | |
you would beat this kind of person, right? | 1:31:16 | |
I mean, you never saw yourself | 1:31:18 | |
as someone who would take chances like that before. | 1:31:20 | |
- | Well, I mean, I think, | 1:31:23 |
I have no idea, but I think it's, | 1:31:25 | |
it's like who I am. | 1:31:29 | |
I mean, knowing my experiences in life | 1:31:30 | |
and my dad's experiences and just how | 1:31:32 | |
I was raised in the military basically. | 1:31:35 | |
And that's the stuff that's shoved down our throats | 1:31:37 | |
is that we're the good guys | 1:31:38 | |
and this is the values we live by. | 1:31:39 | |
And this is why we drag all these other nations kicking | 1:31:41 | |
and screaming to Geneva and saying | 1:31:45 | |
this is how we're going to conduct ourselves during war. | 1:31:47 | |
And this is how we're going to treat detainees. | 1:31:49 | |
So yeah, I don't know how, how to answer that. | 1:31:54 | |
What I know would ever take that kind of risk. | 1:31:58 | |
I don't know if I did, because I didn't, you know | 1:32:02 | |
stand out and beat my chest and say, this is wrong. | 1:32:04 | |
I did it surreptitiously and tried to, you know, | 1:32:06 | |
keep it from being tied back to me. | 1:32:10 | |
So I don't know how courageous that is. | 1:32:13 | |
Interviewer | I want to really thank you. | 1:32:18 |
And we need to take 20 seconds of quiet time, | 1:32:20 | |
Johnny needs that for sound purposes. | 1:32:24 | |
So easy, say no more. | 1:32:25 | |
Matt | Okay. | 1:32:27 |
Johnny | Begin room tone. | 1:32:28 |
End room tone. | 1:32:43 |
Item Info
The preservation of the Duke University Libraries Digital Collections and the Duke Digital Repository programs are supported in part by the Lowell and Eileen Aptman Digital Preservation Fund