Taylor, Katherine - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

-

So okay, good morning.

0:05

-

Great.

Morning.

0:06

Interviewer

We are very grateful

0:07

to you for participating

0:08

in the Witness to Guantanamo project.

0:10

We invite you to speak of your experiences and involvement

0:13

with detainees and others,

0:16

including and involving Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:19

-

Mm-hmm.

0:22

Interviewer

We are hoping to provide you

0:23

with an opportunity to tell your story in your own words.

0:24

And we're creating an archive of stories so that people

0:28

in America and around the world

0:32

will have a better opportunity to understand

0:34

what happened in Guantanamo,

0:37

and what happened to the detainees once they were released

0:38

and transferred to other countries,

0:41

which I think you can assist us on best.

0:43

-

Great.

0:46

Interviewer

Future generations must know

0:48

what happened in Guantanamo, and what happened to detainees.

0:49

And by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:52

So we really appreciate your willingness

0:55

to speak to us today.

0:57

And if at any time you'd like to take a break,

0:58

please let us know.

1:01

-

Okay.

1:02

Interviewer

And if there's something you said

1:03

that you think we should take off camera,

1:03

we can do it, if you'd tell us

1:05

on camera.

1:06

-

Great.

Interviewer

And I'd like to, again,

1:08

if you wouldn't mind telling us your name,

1:10

and a little bit about yourself,

1:12

your background, just so we know who you are.

1:13

-

Sure. So my name's Katie Taylor, and I'm from the US.

1:16

I got interested in this type of work,

1:22

really as an undergrad.

1:25

I went to Brown University, studied human rights,

1:26

and then immediately afterwards, I moved to Palestine,

1:29

where I lived for eight years,

1:34

working on different human rights issues there.

1:36

In the meanwhile, I got a master's degree

1:40

from Columbia again in human rights and international.

1:43

Interviewer

While in Palestine?

1:46

-

Yeah. There was a period of back and forth.

1:48

(laughs)

1:50

So where I was, yeah, wintering in New York,

1:51

and summering in Palestine.

1:54

And from there,

1:57

I, yeah, I was working on,

2:02

I actually focused on children's rights

2:04

more than anything else.

2:05

I worked for War Child in London, then in 2009,

2:07

for about a year and a half, working on their Iraq

2:11

and Afghanistan programs, and then came to Reprieve.

2:13

So I started at Reprieve in 2010.

2:17

Interviewer

Do you mind telling us

2:20

what year you were born, and how old you are?

2:22

-

Sure, so I'm 37. I was born in 1978.

2:24

Yep.

2:27

Interviewer

And so you were born

2:28

in the States, in the US?

2:29

-

Yeah, that's right.

2:31

Yeah.

2:32

Interviewer

In Boston?

2:33

-

In Boston.

2:34

Yeah, just outside.

2:34

Interviewer

And since your master's,

2:38

that was the end of the education.

2:40

-

Yeah, that's right.

2:42

Interviewer

Oh, do we need a break?

2:44

-

Sorry. Yeah, we need a break.

2:45

I'm sorry.

2:47

-

Okay.

I think we're back on, Johnny.

2:48

Johnny

Okay, we're rolling.

2:49

-

Okay.

2:50

Interviewer

I thought by finishing,

2:51

if you wouldn't mind telling us exactly what you do

2:52

at Reprieve, and how the program began and evolved.

2:54

-

Sure. So I coordinate our Life after Guantanamo project.

2:57

This project was started in 2009 with funding from the UN,

3:02

the United Nations Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture.

3:07

And the idea really was to ensure

3:12

that men who were released from Guantanamo,

3:14

particularly those who were being resettled

3:17

in third countries, because they couldn't return

3:19

to their home countries, due to the possibility

3:22

of being tortured or persecuted there,

3:24

that they would have access

3:27

to the services that they need for rehabilitation.

3:29

So the idea really was born of the,

3:33

it was a couple of factors that came together

3:36

at the same time that started the project.

3:38

Partially, it was that Obama had just come into office,

3:42

and he'd announced that the prison would be closed

3:44

within a year, which we all thought was great, (laughs)

3:47

and thought was really gonna happen.

3:50

And also looking at the fact that there were these,

3:53

a group of men that were going to be in these situations,

3:56

where they were going to need extra support,

4:00

because they would be in countries

4:04

where they had no family support.

4:05

They didn't speak the language.

4:07

They'd never been there before.

4:08

They didn't have any of the kind

4:11

of social networks that men returning to their families

4:12

and in their home countries would have.

4:16

Combined with the fact that

4:20

these are, in the end, torture victims,

4:23

and they have undergone a very particular program

4:26

of psychological torture and physical torture,

4:30

which is quite unique, and means

4:33

that they have a lot of extra kind of rehabilitation needs.

4:36

And so the fact that they were ending up

4:39

in places quite dispersed across Europe meant

4:42

that there was a real need to ensure

4:46

that service providers in those countries,

4:48

A, were available, but B,

4:50

were sensitized to the particular issues

4:52

of torture rehabilitation that were pertinent to them.

4:55

Interviewer

Two questions.

4:59

One is when you say it was quite unique,

5:00

what was so unique about the torture they experienced?

5:02

-

Well, I mean, it was based,

5:06

it was a specifically designed psychological program, right?

5:07

You know, the SERE projects, the survival, evasion,

5:12

resistance, and escape, reverse engineered by psychologists,

5:17

so there really was a heavy focus

5:24

on a program of psychological torture,

5:27

which I think makes it unique from a lot

5:29

of the torture that people experience in different parts

5:33

of the world, that there was a specific regime

5:37

under US detention, that again, yeah,

5:40

with the focus on psychological torture,

5:44

leads to specific rehabilitation needs.

5:46

Interviewer

And was there any particular incident

5:49

that caused Reprieve to think about doing this kind of work?

5:51

-

Yeah, well, of course,

5:55

Reprieve had represented the largest number

5:56

of Guantanamo detainees of any organization.

5:58

We've represented more than 60 detainees over the years.

6:02

And there was a growing realization

6:08

that release is not the end of the story,

6:12

that it's a massive victory to get anyone out of prison,

6:15

but particularly in a situation like Guantanamo,

6:19

where people are completely denied legal rights,

6:23

where there's this torture going on,

6:25

but that's just the beginning,

6:28

in many ways, of people's lives.

6:30

So there was one client

6:32

in particular who was coming back to a country

6:34

where he didn't really have any family support.

6:37

And there was also a lot of media attention on him.

6:40

And so my predecessor had this experience

6:43

of working with him, looking at what his needs were,

6:47

and then trying to source local organizations

6:51

that could fill those needs.

6:54

And there was this sort of dawning realization

6:55

that this is one case, but there are gonna be many men

6:57

throughout the world who need this type of service, really.

7:01

So that's where the project came from.

7:05

Interviewer

Did Reprieve ever think itself

7:08

could provide these services?

7:11

-

We aren't direct service providers. That's the thing.

7:13

I mean, this really is a matter of facilitation,

7:15

which makes it quite a tricky project to explain to the men,

7:20

(laughs)

7:25

to the service providers, to the governments where we work.

7:26

Our role, it's one of just trying to link up sides,

7:30

and trying to make sure that service gaps are filled,

7:36

and that those working directly with the men understand,

7:40

and are sensitized to the whole Guantanamo experience.

7:44

The only place where we've done direct service provision

7:48

was in Tunisia.

7:52

Interviewer

And why was that?

7:54

-

That was because after the revolution,

7:56

there were a number of men there,

7:58

and absolutely no torture rehabilitation services

8:01

at all at that time.

8:04

And before the revolution, we just wouldn't have had access.

8:06

We wouldn't have leverage.

8:12

We wouldn't have had the things that we needed

8:12

to do the work that we do, but afterwards we did.

8:15

And it was, for that reason,

8:19

it was also because we still had,

8:21

there were still five Tunisians in Guantanamo at that time.

8:24

And we had very much hoped that if we created

8:29

the right circumstances on the ground in Tunisia,

8:33

that that would lead to their release.

8:35

So in terms of direct service provision there,

8:37

we set up our own team.

8:39

We recruited a doctor, and a psychologist,

8:40

and a social worker, and ran that project for three years.

8:44

And at the end of those three,

8:50

well, throughout that process,

8:53

other torture rehabilitation organizations

8:55

that are much bigger than we are (laughs) started

8:57

to move in, and we worked closely with them.

9:01

And then there was no longer a need to have a separate,

9:03

dedicated project for what is, in the end,

9:06

a very, very small amount of beneficiaries.

9:08

So we've handed that work over

9:12

to other organizations with whom we remain in close contact,

9:14

but that's the only place

9:19

where the conditions have really been right

9:20

for us to do direct implementation.

9:23

Because most of the countries

9:25

where men have been resettled to,

9:27

there is a torture rehabilitation center there,

9:28

or there are specialists, doctors,

9:31

or services that are needed.

9:33

It's just a matter of linking them up.

9:36

Interviewer

So could Reprieve,

9:40

and I want to go into exactly how you link them up,

9:44

and could Reprieve actually have a staff,

9:46

and go to each country, and provide the initial services

9:49

if it wanted to, or it just wasn't part

9:52

of what Reprieve perceives itself?

9:54

-

Do you mean in terms of direct service provision?

9:56

Interviewer

Mm-hmm.

9:59

-

I think we're a very small organization.

10:00

I think that would be too much for us

10:03

to do direct service provision in most of these countries,

10:05

plus, there's no need, in a way.

10:08

I think it's a matter of working with the host governments

10:13

to sensitize them,

10:17

and to ensure that they don't view the men as,

10:19

the favorite phrase that was actually used

10:24

by a government official to me in one country,

10:26

was retired terrorist.

10:29

Interviewer

Really?

10:31

-

Yeah, yeah.

10:32

(laughs)

10:33

So, to ensure that that's not

10:34

the way that these men are being viewed, but instead,

10:36

are being viewed as victims of torture,

10:39

and as people who are ready to restart their lives

10:42

in these new countries.

10:45

-

How do you go about

convincing these countries

10:47

that these men need these services,

10:49

and are not retired terrorists?

10:53

-

It's just education, education, education.

10:55

You know, it's a lot of contact.

10:57

It's working with them over a long period of time.

11:00

Interviewer

Who are they? Who do you go to?

11:04

-

It depends.

11:07

I mean, that's the thing.

11:08

One of the reasons why I think this project is so vital

11:10

is just that there's no systematized way

11:13

that these resettlements happen.

11:16

It's very different in each country, and in each country,

11:19

your focal point, or your point of contact,

11:21

or the responsible authorities, is gonna be different.

11:23

It's never the same.

11:27

Interviewer

Can you give me some example

11:28

of the kinds of people?

11:30

-

So the kinds of people, generally speaking,

11:31

often it would be the Ministry of Interior, for instance,

11:33

of a country that would have responsibility

11:37

for the resettlement, which is quite an awkward thing,

11:41

because in the end, what resettlement,

11:43

a lot of what resettlement is about, is social work,

11:45

and the Ministry of Interior would have no experience

11:48

in social work.

11:52

So what that means is you have

11:55

these Ministry of Interior officials acting sometimes

11:57

for the best of intentions as social workers,

12:02

but that's not a comfortable role for them,

12:05

and it's not something that they have experience in.

12:07

So even if they have the best of intentions,

12:09

it can be quite difficult.

12:13

So what we always try to encourage

12:16

is that the main government focal point should be someone,

12:17

for instance, from administrative social work,

12:22

or a relevant ministry,

12:24

and that it should be multidisciplinary,

12:28

because coming out of Guantanamo, there's a range of needs.

12:31

You know, there are always going to be health needs.

12:34

They're often gonna be mental health needs,

12:38

but then very basic daily life things,

12:41

a house, a stipend,

12:44

if it's a resettlement, local language courses,

12:48

and then, hopefully down the line, support to get a job.

12:52

I mean, which again, goes back

12:56

to some of the fundamental problems.

12:58

It's really hard to explain a 13-year gap in your CV,

13:00

for one thing.

13:04

And it's also difficult

13:06

to ensure that the skills that you've developed

13:12

in your former life are applicable

13:15

to your local economy, and things like that.

13:18

So, I mean, there's a lot of work,

13:19

and it covers the range of what our lives would cover

13:23

in terms of the needs across different sectors.

13:27

Interviewer

Well, it sounds like it's overwhelming

13:33

for one person, like you,

13:34

to reach out to these officials and get them

13:36

to do what you feel they need to do.

13:40

Do you get a lot of resistance, or do you get support?

13:43

What works?

13:45

-

It's different by each country.

13:46

You know, in some countries, I mean, what we bring,

13:47

because it's difficult for the countries

13:50

to understand what we bring.

13:54

To them, we might just be a pesky human rights organization

13:55

or however reviewed.

13:58

So what we try to bring is just the experience

14:03

of having worked in this for six years,

14:05

and having worked with nearly 40 men in about 20 countries,

14:08

and just saying, "Look, it goes a lot smoother

14:13

if you try to do it this way."

14:15

So that's the type of message that we bring is just,

14:18

everybody wants the same goal.

14:22

Everybody wants these men to just be able

14:23

to restart their lives and rebuild their lives,

14:27

and be citizens of this country.

14:29

So this is the route that we think gets you there.

14:33

In some places it works.

14:37

In some places, we need a bit of resistance.

14:38

Interviewer

And resistance is because?

14:40

-

Just because, I mean, again,

14:44

there's so much stigma attached to Guantanamo,

14:45

and there always will be.

14:47

As much as we can try

14:48

to explain how men ended up in Guantanamo,

14:50

and the fact that it really was not a matter

14:53

of people who were involved in a fight against the US

14:59

or its allies, that really the intelligence

15:04

at the beginning was basically nonexistence,

15:06

and the net was cast so wide.

15:08

And then that was coupled with torture,

15:10

which then ends up with these allegations

15:12

that are completely not based on reality.

15:14

You know, you can tell that story again and again and again,

15:19

but people always think,

15:22

"Oh, there's no smoke without fire, really."

15:23

So it's just a lot of trying to go back

15:26

over the history of Guantanamo,

15:30

and how people ended up there,

15:32

the whole bounty scheme, and the flyers that were dropped

15:34

over Afghanistan and Pakistan offering $5,000

15:37

for any person turned in.

15:42

Things like basic facts like that,

15:44

that people are really unaware of.

15:46

Even these government officials often

15:48

who accept to take detainees

15:50

are still given a different line than that sometimes.

15:53

And so it's a matter of trying to educate them about that,

15:56

so that they're viewed, again, as torture victims,

16:01

and not as perpetrators.

16:05

Interviewer

Do you find that your education

16:08

or your discussions with them do make a difference?

16:10

-

I mean, I hope so.

16:13

(laughs)

16:14

Interviewer

So I can imagine where some

16:15

of these government officials just say,

16:17

"We're not that interested,

16:19

We took them, but we're just not interested in doing that."

16:20

-

And that's certainly true in some cases.

16:22

I mean, again, each country is different,

16:24

and we're really,

16:27

sometimes I think that we have definitely gotten

16:30

the message across, and sensitized government officials,

16:33

and led to kind of changes in treatment

16:38

that were quite positive.

16:40

In other places, it's a real uphill battle.

16:41

And so it's a matter of just sustained engagement

16:45

to try to get our message across.

16:51

Interviewer

Do you meet with them personally,

16:54

or do you meet by phone?

16:56

How do you?

16:57

-

In terms of government officials?

16:58

Interviewer

Mm-hmm.

16:59

-

We tried, I mean, it's always much better in person.

17:00

So after a resettlement,

17:03

we will try to get to the country as quickly as possible,

17:06

if it's someone who's part of our project,

17:08

and work with the government officials.

17:13

Sometimes, again, it might take time

17:17

to even get to that step,

17:21

because the government doesn't necessarily initially see

17:22

the value of what we're offering.

17:25

So often a first step is just trying to convince them

17:27

that we can be helpful to them in their resettlement.

17:31

Interviewer

So can we kind of go through the process?

17:36

So when you said it's only someone who were pre-represented?

17:39

-

It's a bit wider than that.

17:44

So initially, it really was just Reprieve clients,

17:46

but then we opened it up when we got UN funding.

17:52

We opened it up, and said we'll take referrals.

17:56

So we got in touch with the other habeas council

18:00

in the US, saying,

18:03

"Hey, if you have a client, and you're interested,

18:04

then we would be happy to try to help."

18:08

And from there, self-referrals started to happen as well,

18:12

that men would get in touch with us and say,

18:17

"Hey, I'm in this country, and I need help."

18:18

So that's pretty much how the referral process works.

18:23

Interviewer

And could you tell us the process, Katie?

18:28

So let's say you get a call

18:30

from either the habeas council or from the men.

18:32

What do you do next?

18:34

-

Well, first, we want to try to,

18:35

it's very social worky, you know?

18:38

So it's really trying to figure out what their needs are,

18:41

and then match it with services,

18:45

and then try to get those services to be as accessible

18:47

and as helpful as possible.

18:51

So concrete examples,

18:55

often one of the issues, housing is always an issue.

18:58

And so in that case, you have to look

19:04

at who's responsible for providing the housing,

19:06

who should be responsible.

19:09

If there's no responsibility,

19:10

how do we source it somewhere else?

19:11

Things like that.

19:14

Interviewer

And what if the country doesn't do much

19:16

of social services or psychological services counseling?

19:20

How do you manage that?

19:25

-

With that, I mean, we have psychologists that we've worked

19:27

with through the years, Arabic speaking psychologists.

19:32

Now the problem is, of course,

19:36

they're never quite in the right country.

19:38

So it's a matter of trying to facilitate remote support,

19:41

so via Skype or something like that, which isn't ideal,

19:45

but it is at least a step,

19:50

because I think it's very important

19:54

that it be in the language

19:56

of the person who's receiving the service.

19:59

Interviewer

Would you say that you have improved

20:03

the lives of the detainees through this program?

20:08

I mean, could you give me some examples?

20:11

-

I think some of them, yeah.

20:13

I definitely think some of them.

20:14

I mean, there are cases that,

20:16

I mean, all the cases are different,

20:18

and some of them, I definitely think we have.

20:22

I can't speak about specific cases, of course,

20:27

because of client confidentiality, but generally speaking,

20:29

there are places where if we hadn't intervened,

20:33

they'd be facing street homelessness.

20:36

Interviewer

Wow.

20:38

-

And through kind of sustained effort over the years

20:40

and advocacy, we've gotten people.

20:44

I mean, obviously it has a lot to do with them,

20:48

much more than it has to do with us,

20:50

but to a point where they're even supporting families now.

20:52

Interviewer

What do you do in really serious cases?

20:59

'Cause over the years, I've heard of some detainees

21:02

having very severe mental issues.

21:05

-

Mm-hmm.

21:10

Interviewer

And they probably are trying to reach out.

21:11

Are you able to put out fires at all,

21:15

and get involved in those?

21:16

-

Again, it depends.

21:19

I mean, we're limited in what we can do.

21:19

We're always gonna be limited in what we can do

21:21

in terms of our resources, and in terms of access.

21:23

Access is a big issue.

21:27

Interviewer

What is access for you?

21:29

-

Well, there are certain countries

21:30

that we really can't access.

21:31

Interviewer

They won't let you in?

21:34

Yeah, I mean, there are countries

21:34

where I've had visas pending for years,

21:36

that we'll never--

21:39

Interviewer

Really?

-

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

21:40

So in a case like that, where we just can't get there,

21:42

there's really almost nothing we can do,

21:48

which is incredibly frustrating,

21:50

more so for the men than for us,

21:52

but it is incredibly frustrating.

21:54

And again, as a non-direct service provider, I mean,

21:59

I'm not a psychologist, nor a social worker.

22:02

So we're really reliant on local partners for these things.

22:06

And in places, some places are quite strong,

22:11

and some places, they're not.

22:13

Interviewer

And do you reach out to those local partners

22:15

and ask them to

22:17

-

Yes.

22:18

-

visit the men?

-

So that's a lot of what we do.

22:20

I mean, in a sense, that's most of what we do

22:22

is trying to source local partners

22:25

that can provide the services that are needed.

22:28

And yeah, it's really a facilitation role,

22:31

but one that, because every country is different,

22:34

is incredibly resource intensive.

22:38

Interviewer

And why would a country block your visa?

22:42

What would be there?

22:45

-

Well, if they just don't see a value,

22:46

or there are countries that are naturally shy

22:47

of human rights organizations.

22:50

And, of course, Reprieve has its reputation

22:52

as a human rights organization.

22:54

So there are countries that are just close

22:57

to that type of thing.

22:59

So, and that's less resettlement countries,

23:02

and more repatriation countries.

23:04

Interviewer

And do you deal with the US at all

23:07

on any of these issues?

23:10

-

Yeah. Of course.

23:12

I mean, we don't get a lot of information from them.

23:12

I mean, what we try, of course,

23:18

you want to know there's incredibly little information.

23:23

There's no transparency around releases.

23:27

So we don't have prior information about releases,

23:32

and that's incredibly difficult.

23:38

We have tried in the past

23:41

to get at least the government contacts

23:44

of the host government through the US.

23:47

In the last few years, that's not been possible.

23:50

Interviewer

Why?

23:52

US won't talk to them?

23:54

-

Yeah, so it's becoming less transparent,

23:55

I would say, in terms of these things.

24:01

Interviewer

Are you saying the US at the beginning

24:03

of Obama's administration would be more willing

24:05

to talk to you?

24:07

-

Yeah, I think they would.

24:08

And again, there's a difference

24:09

between when it's our clients and when it's not our clients,

24:10

of course, which,

24:13

but it also it does seem

24:16

like there's less information that we're able to get

24:20

about these resettlements, which makes it difficult,

24:24

because if we had an introduction to the right people

24:27

in the government who were dealing with the resettlement,

24:32

then that would save us a massive amount

24:34

of legwork in terms of trying to figure out

24:36

who that is, trying to introduce ourselves,

24:38

and get the credibility that we need, really,

24:40

to meet with them.

24:43

But that's non-existent at the moment.

24:45

Interviewer

Why do you think

24:47

the US changed its policy about that?

24:48

-

I'm not sure it's a policy change.

24:50

I think it's a de facto on the ground change.

24:52

Interviewer

Really?

24:54

-

And no, I don't know why, because of course,

24:55

it would go a lot smoother if we were able

24:57

to work with the right people in the government initially.

25:00

Interviewer

So you have no assistance in trying

25:05

to figure out who the right people are when you first go?

25:07

-

Often we don't.

25:10

Yeah.

25:12

So, it's kind of a guessing game,

25:12

but it's a logical one.

25:16

You can sort of look at patterns and think,

25:17

well, it's probably gonna be

25:19

in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Ministry of Interior,

25:20

and work it out from there.

25:22

And often governments are very receptive

25:26

to meeting with us, which is great.

25:29

That saves us a lot of work if you can pinpoint

25:31

the right person and get there initially.

25:35

Interviewer

Do you ever try,

25:38

I noticed that many of the detainees have moved

25:39

to relatively small cities in the middle

25:41

of the countries.

25:44

-

Mm-hmm.

Interviewer

Do you ever try to move them

25:45

to a more populated area where there is more

25:46

of a Muslim community?

25:48

-

If that's what the men want,

25:49

then we will advocate for that, absolutely,

25:51

because I think isolation is a massive part of the story.

25:53

And particularly in places, as you say,

25:57

where there isn't a Muslim population,

26:01

where there's no local mosque, and also, yeah,

26:03

I mean, just not having the community support,

26:06

the flip side of which is the stigma.

26:09

You know, if you end up in a small town in the middle

26:12

of nowhere, and particularly if you are identified

26:15

as a former Guantanamo detainee,

26:19

you're gonna be stigmatized, in most cases.

26:21

There are actually countries where you might be celebrated,

26:24

but a lot of the time, it's a matter of stigma,

26:27

and that the governments,

26:29

the host governments can do a lot to increase

26:33

or decrease that as well.

26:35

So there are places where,

26:36

if you're being treated as a potential terrorism threat,

26:42

and thus, you're being overtly followed in these countries,

26:45

then that certainly doesn't help stigma issues.

26:50

And that's an issue that we faced.

26:54

Interviewer

So do you succeed

26:58

in getting the men transferred

27:00

to another city in that country that's more populated?

27:02

-

In some cases we have, but certainly not across the board,

27:05

but in some cases, it's been possible.

27:09

Again, it just has to do with working

27:12

with the local authorities,

27:16

trying to have them understand what the benefit of this is.

27:17

Interviewer

Do you think, I mean, maybe you even know,

27:22

but that the US spoke to the country

27:24

and asked them to move them

27:27

to a small town in the middle of the country?

27:28

Do you think that's possible?

27:32

-

I think we'll never really know.

27:33

There are lots of things that I can guess at,

27:36

but it's so untransparent that it would just be me guessing,

27:40

based on kind of patterns, but we'll never know,

27:46

I don't think.

27:49

Interviewer

And do you work with any detainees

27:51

who are resettled in their home countries?

27:54

-

We do, in extraordinary circumstances

27:56

where there's a real need,

28:00

and where we, not only a real need,

28:01

but where we think we would be able to help.

28:04

So for instance, Tunisia was an example of that,

28:07

where we worked with Tunisians in Tunisia.

28:11

And in other cases, particularly then,

28:15

if it's a Reprieve client also,

28:18

and they're going back to circumstances

28:20

where they don't have family support for whatever reason,

28:22

then we would certainly try to help as we could,

28:27

in a way, very similar to how we would try

28:30

to help in a resettlement country.

28:32

Interviewer

Could you, for the audience,

28:35

could you explain what differences are very marked

28:36

between men who go home and many of the third countries?

28:39

-

Well, so it's very basic life,

28:43

sort of basic life needs that are extremely different.

28:50

So if you're going back to your home country,

28:54

you probably have some sort of family support.

28:58

You definitely speak the language.

29:02

(laughs)

29:03

You understand the system.

29:05

You know where the post office is.

29:10

You know how housing works.

29:14

You have some understanding

29:16

of the statutory system of the governments.

29:17

You're going back home, in a way.

29:21

Resettlement, and there are difficulties there too,

29:25

because it could be

29:28

that you're facing a more oppressive government.

29:29

So it could be that while you have the familiarity

29:31

and support, which is key, absolutely key,

29:36

what you might be facing is more scrutiny,

29:41

a more insecure existence possibly.

29:45

And again, I'm speaking very generally,

29:47

because it's very different per country,

29:49

but there certainly are places

29:51

where it's possible you would face arbitrary arrest,

29:52

and things like that, which, of course,

29:57

is damaging in any situation,

30:01

but in a situation where you've been held

30:04

in a legal black hole for a decade,

30:05

is immensely retraumatizing, of course.

30:10

I mean, it's a no-brainer.

30:14

It's a terrible thing to have happen.

30:16

So in terms of resettlement, it's sort of the reverse.

30:19

You might be resettled

30:22

to a place that you have more legal rights, possibly.

30:24

It's not a given (laughs)

30:28

where you have more legal rights,

30:30

but then you're facing these day-to-day struggles

30:32

in terms of, I mean,

30:34

just not speaking the language is a massive thing,

30:36

and not understanding how anything works,

30:39

and it replicates, or it can replicate a lot

30:41

of the arbitrary treatment

30:46

that men experienced in Guantanamo.

30:48

You often see this.

30:51

They often draw parallels

30:54

between their experience in Guantanamo and the new place,

30:55

because in a sense, they are seeing this replication

30:58

of when you don't understand a system,

31:01

or where a system's not explained

31:03

to you clearly and properly,

31:04

everything seems arbitrary, and everything seems

31:07

like it's being decided by some higher authority in a way.

31:11

So it's very difficult,

31:17

and it's very difficult to break the sort

31:20

of pattern of thinking,

31:23

that you're still being treated in the same way.

31:25

Interviewer

And so you hear that from the men

31:28

in these third countries.

31:30

They seem to follow that same theme.

31:31

-

Often, yes.

31:34

Interviewer

Our experience with the men

31:36

who were released is often

31:39

that they want to see their families.

31:41

-

Mm-hmm.

31:43

Interviewer

And is there a way to help them?

31:43

Because apparently it doesn't seem like.

31:46

-

It's a really tricky one.

31:49

And it's something that we push for very, very hard,

31:51

because it's so key.

31:54

It's so, so key.

31:56

Now the obstacles there, they're a range of obstacles.

31:59

So it depends where the men are from.

32:04

So if right now, if you're from Yemen,

32:06

it's gonna be really, really hard to get your family

32:09

out of Yemen at all.

32:12

Interviewer

Because, just so the audience knows, please.

32:15

-

Just because of the war.

32:17

Interviewer

Okay.

32:18

-

So there are no commercial flights.

32:19

(laughs)

32:21

Interviewer

If there were?

32:22

-

Okay, so in cases where that's, so that's an extreme.

32:24

Interviewer

Right.

32:27

-

Right.

I mean, it's unfortunately

32:28

a very pertinent extreme right now,

32:29

because there are so many Yemenis

32:31

who've recently been released, but it is an extreme.

32:33

In other circumstances, so if your family lives

32:37

in a country where there are commercial flights,

32:39

(laughs)

32:41

then it's a matter of working.

32:42

It's a matter of convincing the local authorities

32:45

how important this is.

32:47

You know, that family visits are really, really important,

32:49

because what you need from them are facilitating visas.

32:51

Interviewer

Home.

32:55

-

In cases of visits.

32:56

Now there's also cases where the whole family is resettled,

32:57

or part of the family is resettled in the country.

33:01

And again, that's more bureaucracy

33:03

more than anything else,

33:05

but there has to be a political will

33:06

to push that bureaucratic system forward, really.

33:08

And then in terms of other logistics,

33:11

there's a third international organization

33:14

that prefers to remain anonymous that gets involved in terms

33:18

of the actual logistics of getting family visits in order.

33:21

Interviewer

An NGO, or you'd rather not say?

33:26

-

Yeah, we'll leave it there.

33:29

Interviewer

Are you saying they help bring

33:32

the families to them?

33:34

-

Yeah.

33:35

Yeah, so they help in terms of sourcing plane tickets,

33:37

providing some support, things like that.

33:40

Interviewer

And you work with them?

33:42

-

Yeah. So we work closely with them on that.

33:43

Interviewer

So they can help bring some family members

33:45

to meet them.

33:47

-

Exactly.

33:48

So when there are delays, it's often visa delays,

33:49

and again, that goes to the authorities

33:56

not necessarily seeing the importance

34:01

or valuing the importance of that.

34:04

Interviewer

Their organization, would they be involved

34:06

in cleaning up the visa delays, or is that yours?

34:08

-

Yeah, it would probably be more us, really.

34:13

And that's just, and it's different in each country.

34:17

Every country has its own bureaucratic process for visas.

34:21

So it's a matter of pushing.

34:24

Interviewer

And when the families come,

34:27

if you're successful and families come,

34:30

can they stay for a while, or do they have to return?

34:31

How does that work?

34:35

-

I mean, again, it's really different per country.

34:35

It's hard to generalize.

34:38

So there are some places where basically,

34:40

your visa is the limit, right?

34:43

So if you get a two-week visa, you get a two-week visa.

34:44

There are places where families have been,

34:48

or parts of families have been resettled permanently,

34:50

and given legal status and things like that,

34:53

which is, of course, ideal,

34:56

assuming that's what the families want.

34:58

(laughs)

34:59

That's ideal for them.

35:00

Interviewer

And when you say families,

35:03

you're saying a wife?

35:04

-

Yeah, so in cases of wives, under European law,

35:06

there would be a right

35:13

for that type of family reunification anyways,

35:14

which makes it a bit easier,

35:16

although not always flawlessly smooth.

35:17

I mean, ideally it should be easier,

35:22

because there is a right to family life in Europe.

35:24

So yeah.

35:27

Wives, children, and some cases, parents,

35:28

in terms of visits.

35:32

People haven't seen their parents for 13 years,

35:35

sometimes quite a while longer.

35:37

So yeah.

35:42

Interviewer

So if the wives come,

35:43

they can stay in Europe?

35:45

-

Again, they should be able to.

35:47

And that's something that, I mean,

35:51

a big issue we deal with is legal status.

35:54

That's perhaps one of the biggest issues that we deal with,

35:57

because there's no standardized way

36:03

that different countries assign legal statuses

36:06

to the men who are resettled there.

36:09

The best case scenario is refugee status.

36:12

So a permanent clear status that has rights attached.

36:15

That's what we advocate for.

36:21

What you often get, though,

36:24

are made up statuses, like statuses that don't exist,

36:26

except for these particular men.

36:33

So you might get a six-month renewable, temporary permit,

36:35

residency permit that basically has a made up category.

36:40

And that is incredibly difficult, because then again,

36:48

you're outside of the law in a way.

36:50

They've made up something new.

36:52

And so it's unclear what rights are attached to that.

36:54

Family reunification is one

36:57

of the rights that might be quite unclear.

36:58

And that also makes it unclear how you get

37:02

on the track to citizenship from there,

37:06

whether you can open a bank account, get a driver's license.

37:10

I mean, enroll in school.

37:13

Interviewer

That's not uncommon for these countries

37:15

to create these situations?

37:17

-

It's not uncommon.

37:18

I wish it were uncommon. It's not uncommon.

37:20

And that's really problematic,

37:23

and something that we spend a lot

37:26

of time trying to advocate against.

37:28

And we work with a lot

37:31

of local lawyers in that situation, of course,

37:32

because you need an immigration lawyer of that jurisdiction.

37:34

It's not something that our lawyers here can do,

37:40

unless it were the UK.

37:43

So that's where we try to find local lawyers specialized,

37:46

and nobody specialized in this, but at least specialized

37:50

in immigration issues or asylum issues

37:53

to work through those types of problems.

37:57

'Cause again, one of the things

38:01

that it just replicates for the men,

38:03

it replicates this arbitrary lawless nature

38:06

in which they have been treated for so many years.

38:09

And it's incredibly unhelpful to reintegration,

38:11

or getting back on your feet.

38:14

Interviewer

When you talk to the countries,

38:16

and say this is a fictitious category,

38:17

how do you justify it?

38:20

Do they respond to that?

38:21

-

The countries that tend to do that

38:23

aren't the most responsive countries,

38:24

as I'm sure you can imagine.

38:26

So it's not something that we've ever

38:29

really gotten a satisfactory explanation on.

38:34

I don't think there would be a satisfactory explanation

38:36

for that anyways.

38:39

Interviewer

In terms of travel documents,

38:42

most of the men, or all the men,

38:44

don't get passports for their countries?

38:45

Is that true? Or what do you see there?

38:48

-

Certainly not initially.

38:50

Yeah.

38:53

Interviewer

And if they're in the EU,

38:54

can't they travel from country to country once released?

38:57

-

There are restrictions within Europe.

39:01

So there's the Schengen region of Europe.

39:03

Interviewer

Can you describe it for me?

39:07

-

Sure, so for instance, the UK,

39:08

where we are now, is not part of the Schengen visa.

39:11

It's like a visa regime type of thing,

39:14

but several countries in Western Europe are,

39:17

I don't know exactly how many,

39:19

and within the Schengen region,

39:22

people should be able to move almost in a borderless manner.

39:25

Interviewer

Can they?

39:29

Do the detainees, can they go from country to country,

39:29

and neighboring countries?

39:32

-

I mean, there are gonna always

39:33

be more restrictions on them,

39:34

whether or not those restrictions are legally recognized,

39:37

they are de facto restrictions.

39:39

Interviewer

And do they get any kind

39:43

of travel documents at all?

39:44

-

Some men have, after years.

39:47

Interviewer

And then initially, they might get nothing?

39:49

-

Initially, they may get nothing.

39:52

And again, we'll never know what the restrictions are

39:54

from the US, and what the agreement is

39:58

with the host country.

40:00

These are things that we'll never know in terms of that.

40:01

Interviewer

You don't get hints over time

40:05

on what kind of agreements?

40:07

-

Not anything really substantial.

40:09

I mean, there are always gonna be negotiations

40:12

between the countries that we just won't be party to.

40:15

Interviewer

How do you see security issues?

40:19

'Cause my understanding is the US does care

40:21

about that when they release the men, is that.

40:23

-

I think that's all they care about,

40:26

(laughs)

40:28

to be honest.

40:29

Interviewer

Is that what they think?

40:30

-

I don't think they really care

40:31

about any other aspect of the whole thing.

40:33

So, yeah.

40:36

I mean, and again,

40:38

there's so much we just won't know.

40:39

Interviewer

Well, do you see the police

40:42

or the local authorities checking in on the men there too?

40:44

-

Yeah. Yeah.

40:47

That's quite common.

40:48

Interviewer

How did they check in on them?

40:49

-

Again, different by country.

40:50

Interviewer

And you don't have

40:51

to mention service of a country,

40:53

but just so, who understands?

40:55

-

I think an extreme is the men being followed

40:58

really obviously every time they leave home,

41:02

and that's only happened in a few countries,

41:07

and is incredibly detrimental, as you can imagine.

41:09

Yeah. That's one extreme.

41:14

The other extreme is, we push.

41:16

(laughs)

41:18

Interviewer

Do they do police checks,

41:19

where they knock on the door to see them?

41:20

-

That happens, mm-hmm.

41:22

Yeah. Certainly there are those in some countries, so, yeah.

41:23

Interviewer

Have you seen any outrageous,

41:28

maybe not outrageous,

41:30

but situations where the police might have photos put up?

41:31

-

I've never seen that.

41:37

No, I've never seen them saying. like,

41:39

"Look out for this man."

41:41

That would be terrible. I've not seen that, nor heard of it.

41:42

Interviewer

Mm-hmm.

41:45

When you say 20 countries, that means you go outside Europe.

41:46

So besides Tunisia, do you go to North Africa, or what?

41:50

-

Yeah. In North Africa, when we can.

41:53

(laughs)

41:56

And of course, now there's some men in Latin America,

41:59

and places like that as well.

42:03

Interviewer

And does the UN

42:05

continually fund the program?

42:07

-

So it's a yearly funding thing.

42:08

So I think we're on year six of that funding cycle.

42:13

Interviewer

Do you report to the UN?

42:16

-

Yeah, yeah.

42:18

Interviewer

Which agency were you under?

42:19

-

So it's the

42:20

United Nations Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture,

42:21

UNVFVT.

42:24

And yeah, it's been great that they've supported us.

42:25

Now, they only support a third

42:31

of our project costs, because that's their policy.

42:34

So the rest of the funding is just picked up by Reprieve.

42:38

So it's actually not a huge amount we get from the UN,

42:42

but it still is significant, and makes it happen.

42:45

So, yeah.

42:51

And it's great,

42:52

because there's not a lot of funding out there

42:53

for this type of thing, as you can imagine.

42:58

So it's been great having a consistent

43:01

sort of donor for that.

43:03

Interviewer

Are you allowed to give money directly

43:06

to the detainee if they are hurting,

43:08

and they need additional funds for some reason like that?

43:11

-

That's not something we really do.

43:15

Yeah, that's not something that we,

43:19

it's never really the best way to approach things anyways.

43:22

So we really just try to find them the support

43:25

in their country that they need through local partners.

43:27

Interviewer

Would there be people who might come forth

43:32

with some funds that they might give the detainees?

43:34

-

It happens occasionally,

43:40

and we can try to point them in the right direction,

43:42

but it's complicated.

43:46

US law complicates things.

43:48

There are restrictions on, I'm not a lawyer,

43:52

so I can't really go into it,

43:56

but there are some restrictions, definitely.

43:58

Interviewer

On giving funding to the detainees,

44:01

even though they've left the US jurisdiction.

44:03

-

Yeah, yeah.

44:06

Interviewer

Do anonymous donors ever help out

44:08

with education, or with other things?

44:10

-

Yeah. That's happened in some circumstances.

44:12

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of a case in particular,

44:16

where someone wanted to complete higher education,

44:18

and there was an anonymous donor who helped with that.

44:22

Interviewer

And who connected them? How does that work?

44:24

-

That was actually their local lawyer,

44:27

their American habeas council, that set that up,

44:28

and in a case like that,

44:32

where having access to a bachelor's degree

44:35

is gonna make a huge impact on his life.

44:38

And it's a great thing.

44:41

Interviewer

How often do you visit the men?

44:45

Since it's just you,

44:49

or it's one other person, it's not just you,

44:50

how often do you get a chance to visit the men,

44:52

and do you return, or at some point, do you stop returning?

44:54

How does that work?

44:58

-

Yeah, I mean, all of this work is incredibly case-by-case.

44:58

So when somebody is repatriated,

45:04

who's part of our project, or resettled,

45:07

who's part of our project,

45:09

then we'll try to go as quickly as possible,

45:10

and do a first needs assessment type of thing,

45:12

figure out what we're gonna be facing,

45:15

(laughs)

45:17

and try to source.

45:20

That's a really intensive time

45:21

of making government contacts.

45:23

We're starting our advocacy with the governments,

45:25

trying to find local partners, if needed.

45:27

In some cases, the program developed

45:32

by the government is actually quite good.

45:35

And they've thought about all of these things.

45:36

They've thought about housing, and stipend, and education,

45:38

and job searching, and health, and all of those things,

45:40

in which case, actually, there's not a huge amount

45:43

for us to do except say, great.

45:46

In other cases, there are huge gaps.

45:49

So then if it's not being provided by the government,

45:51

then we need to find local partners that can fill that gap,

45:54

and then work with them.

45:59

So that all kind of happens during an initial visit or two.

46:01

Beyond that, it's really up to the needs of the men.

46:05

You know, the way we work is we try to work

46:09

with the men to develop their own goals.

46:12

So their goal might be, in six months,

46:16

I'd like to have independent housing in a certain city.

46:19

I'd like my wife to be with me.

46:23

I'd like, in a year,

46:24

I'd like to be at this level of the language.

46:27

In two years, I'd like to have a job.

46:31

You know, things like that.

46:33

This is all very social worky,

46:35

but we try to have this goal-driven approach,

46:36

with each man, which means it's different for each man.

46:40

And then visits are kind of dependent on that in a way.

46:44

And if there's a crisis, we go,

46:49

if something happens that that we think our presence.

46:51

Interviewer

What's a crisis?

46:56

-

So a crisis might be,

46:57

if there's a bad media campaign against the person,

47:02

if there is a particular obstacle

47:07

that seems to be coming from a particular source

47:12

to one of their goals.

47:14

It's various things we might go.

47:15

And in terms of when we stop working with men,

47:19

it's really up to them.

47:22

I mean, that's the thing is,

47:24

it's just very much an open door policy for us.

47:26

What happens, now that I've been working

47:31

on this for five years,

47:33

I've seen it happen over five years,

47:34

it's a lot of work at the beginning,

47:36

and then as the men get back on their feet,

47:37

they just don't need us, which is great, you know?

47:40

So then it becomes less

47:43

and less and less over the years.

47:46

And then now, there are men I've worked

47:48

with who will just call me once a year and say,

47:50

"Hey I've had a baby."

47:52

You know, it's like, "Oh!

47:53

(laughs)

47:54

That's great."

47:55

Interviewer

So you actually see improvement?

47:56

-

Oh yeah.

47:57

Sometimes, I mean, it's case-by-case,

47:58

and everything takes time.

47:59

They're overcoming obstacles that you

48:02

and I can't understand.

48:04

So it's a long road, but yeah, you know.

48:07

Interviewer

But the way you're saying it

48:12

you might also not see improvement.

48:14

-

Again, I mean, some of the obstacles are really big,

48:16

so it might be that in the timescale

48:19

that I've been working with them,

48:21

we're just not there,

48:23

or that the circumstances are too difficult,

48:26

but I do have men that I've worked with,

48:32

who I am incredibly proud of them

48:35

in terms of where they've gotten to in their lives,

48:39

going from being dropped

48:42

in a country where they have no connections at all,

48:44

to getting to a point where they're holding

48:46

down a job and supporting a family, and things like that,

48:48

over a matter of years, it's impressive.

48:51

It's really impressive.

48:54

Interviewer

Do you, when you go,

48:56

do you bring an Arab translator with you?

48:57

-

I speak Arabic.

48:59

Interviewer

You do?

49:00

-

Not totally fluently.

49:01

(laughs)

49:03

And with some men, it's more difficult than others,

49:03

depending on where they're from,

49:05

but for visits, I can usually do okay.

49:07

Interviewer

I know that there was another person

49:12

who worked with you.

49:14

Did she speak Arabic too?

49:15

Or did she have to bring an Arabic translator?

49:17

-

Yeah, so we have, now we have more Arabic speakers

49:18

on our team than we ever have, which is great.

49:22

And actually means my Arabic has gotten worse,

49:24

because I don't need it as much.

49:26

(laughs)

49:27

Interviewer

Really?

49:28

-

But yeah.

49:29

I mean, for other people who've worked

49:30

on the project who don't speak Arabic,

49:31

then perhaps I would go, or perhaps one

49:33

of the other members of the team would go.

49:36

The other thing is some

49:38

of the men have really good other language skills.

49:39

So we work it out again, case-by-case, work it out.

49:43

Interviewer

And if they have serious health problems,

49:48

which many of them do when they leave,

49:51

you look for local doctors who volunteer their services,

49:53

or do they get paid?

49:57

-

It depends.

50:00

So it could be that they have been hired

50:01

by the government to work

50:03

on this for this resettlement project,

50:06

whatever it is specifically in that country,

50:10

or else, they might be part of an existing NGO,

50:13

or else, they might just be private doctors who, yeah,

50:18

work pro bono out of the goodness of their hearts.

50:21

And that's something.

50:25

Finding the right doctor is a big part

50:26

of our work as well because of the complicity in Guantanamo

50:30

of both psychologists and doctors in people's abuse.

50:36

It creates massive issues of trust, as you can imagine.

50:40

So it's important to find someone

50:45

who can establish a relationship of trust with the men,

50:49

so that they can really take advantage

50:53

of what they have to offer.

50:55

Interviewer

How do you do that?

50:57

-

You have to just find the right person, really,

50:58

and explain, but we've had a lot of great people.

51:00

I mean, I think that's one

51:05

of the things I really like in this work is going

51:06

to these countries, and you really do meet amazing people.

51:09

I mean, the men themselves, but then also,

51:12

these local human rights defenders, these local lawyers,

51:17

these local doctors.

51:20

I always come back feeling like, "Wow, okay, that's great,"

51:22

what people are doing out there.

51:25

Interviewer

My understanding is that many of the men,

51:28

when they're resettled, want wives,

51:30

and if they didn't have a wife

51:32

before they were captured and went to Guantanamo,

51:33

does Reprieve get involved in helping them find wives?

51:37

-

We don't.

51:41

That's up to them.

51:42

(laughs)

51:43

That's their prerogative, I think.

51:45

Interviewer

What about using the internet?

51:48

Does Reprieve train them in using the internet?

51:49

-

Yeah, we do.

51:52

Yeah. I mean, it's great what you can do today.

51:58

I mean, over Skype and things like that, you can really,

51:59

really kind of do a step-by-step thing.

52:02

So in some countries, they get computer courses,

52:05

which is great.

52:06

Not all.

52:08

So in countries where they don't,

52:08

or where it's just not working,

52:10

then we try to help just on a daily basis.

52:12

Interviewer

Will you sit down

52:19

and kind of train them in that?

52:19

-

Yeah, yeah.

52:21

Interviewer

You do it yourself?

52:22

-

Yeah, exactly.

52:22

Or one of the members of my team will do that.

52:23

And it's interesting.

52:27

It's a way of seeing kind of progress as well,

52:30

'cause when they went into Guantanamo,

52:32

everything was really different.

52:35

Interviewer

Right.

52:37

-

So opening an email account, things like that.

52:38

It takes time, but you get there.

52:41

Interviewer

What about telephones?

52:43

-

Yeah.

52:45

Interviewer

Can you provide telephones for them,

52:46

or do you?

52:49

-

We don't do a lot of direct provision stuff.

52:50

Interviewer

So you find people in DEOS to provide those?

52:53

-

Yeah, exactly.

52:55

Or ideally, that type of basic thing

52:56

really should be provided

52:59

through their reintegration program from the government.

53:00

I mean, it should be, but in cases where it's not,

53:03

we'll try to facilitate that.

53:06

Interviewer

And who would pay their telephone bill,

53:08

since their funds are limited?

53:09

-

Again, yeah.

It's very different in each country.

53:11

So the types of things that are provided for,

53:13

or are not provided for, differs hugely,

53:17

and also, often there's not a lot of clarity around it,

53:20

which is incredibly frustrating,

53:23

for, I think, both sides, actually,

53:24

because the men don't know what they're entitled to.

53:26

Interviewer

So, I mean,

53:32

there's really no standardization at all.

53:34

It's just really

53:35

country to country.

53:36

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

And the countries concerned

53:37

for the men and the people, local people who care.

53:38

That's really good

53:43

to be working with.

53:44

-

Exactly.

53:44

So it's absolutely different.

53:45

Each circumstance is its own,

53:49

its own world.

53:51

Interviewer

Well, then,

I'll just ask you to kind of review it again, Katie.

53:52

So what is exactly, now that we understand all that,

53:55

does Reprieve really provide,

53:59

given that it's so different in every country?

54:01

-

Well, it's just that, in a way,

54:03

in the sense of just trying

54:05

to get the best possible local services for the men,

54:07

given all of these different circumstances,

54:11

so it really is a role of going in

54:13

and trying to convince people to do right by these guys.

54:15

And that's what we do.

54:19

I mean, we don't hand out money.

54:20

We aren't psychologists.

54:24

We aren't local lawyers.

54:25

Some of us are lawyers,

54:27

but not in the right jurisdiction to be of any help, really.

54:28

So it's a matter, though,

54:32

of working with the men to identify what the gaps are,

54:33

what they need, and then just trying to source those things,

54:39

and trying to work with those services

54:42

to make them as good as possible for the men.

54:44

It's a very difficult thing to understand, actually,

54:47

and every day of work for me is completely different.

54:49

Interviewer

Has the government slowdown defunded you?

54:53

Have they interfered, so when you're going to local NGOs,

54:55

the government is kind of even pushed back there with it?

54:58

-

I don't, we worry about that sometimes,

55:02

but it's not actually, we haven't faced too much of that.

55:04

Yeah, they haven't.

55:11

I can't think of an example of where our governments stepped

55:13

in and said, "Don't work with that NGO."

55:15

I mean, it's conceivable that that could happen,

55:18

but I haven't really faced it.

55:20

Interviewer

And you don't have US officials coming in,

55:22

and interfering with you at all?

55:26

-

No. No, that's never happened.

55:28

Interviewer

And these officials don't really ask you

55:31

what's going on,

55:32

other than how much just..

55:33

-

No.

No, it's, yeah.

55:35

Interviewer

Okay.

55:37

Johnny, do you have any questions

55:41

that you're thinking of?

55:42

Johnny

Yeah, I have a question.

55:44

And just look at Peter

55:46

when you answer.

55:47

-

Okay.

(laughs)

55:48

Johnny

This work sounds really intense.

55:50

-

Yeah.

55:52

Johnny

I'm curious what some

55:53

of the key realizations that you've had in the course

55:56

of doing this work in the past five years are about,

55:59

just about the Guantanamo experience in general.

56:03

-

Yeah. I mean, I've learned

56:06

an immense amount through this.

56:12

I think the biggest conclusions

56:15

that I've drawn in terms

56:20

of the rehabilitation side of things is, it takes time.

56:21

It takes time. It takes time.

56:25

And speaking to someone three weeks, six weeks,

56:27

a month, six months, two months,

56:32

two years after they're out,

56:35

you're gonna get a completely different story

56:36

because the trajectory is, everything takes time.

56:38

I think the other thing that I think I've learned

56:42

and the message I try to give to the local partners

56:48

is really about clarity.

56:54

You know, the thing that the men crave

56:56

is understanding what they're getting,

57:00

understanding who they can turn to

57:03

when they need A, B, or C.

57:05

And that providing that clarity is such an important step.

57:07

The other thing that I've learned is that family,

57:14

just family support is just the most important thing,

57:18

in cases where you have,

57:21

where men's families are with them,

57:25

and able to provide them support,

57:28

there's very little role for us to play,

57:30

because the family is doing it.

57:32

And just the emotional support that they get

57:36

from the families is so, so important.

57:38

You know, again, whether it be parents and siblings,

57:41

or wives and children, that really is key.

57:43

Those are kind of the big conclusions I think I've drawn

57:49

from this process.

57:53

Interviewer

Was this work very different

57:54

from what you did in Palestine?

57:56

-

Yeah. Very different.

57:57

Interviewer

In Palestine?

57:59

-

In Palestine, I mean,

58:00

I worked for a number of different NGOs,

58:02

but it was often on sort of, kind of a policy level.

58:05

This was my first experience with direct case work.

58:09

Interviewer

And if the men don't,

58:15

have you seen situations

58:17

where the men don't have strong family ties,

58:19

that the families maybe don't want to connect with them, or?

58:22

-

Yeah, it's not usually a case of not wanting to.

58:27

It's more of a case of capacity, really, too.

58:32

So families that are small, or dispersed,

58:35

or in places where they're struggling

58:39

for survival themselves, or just don't have access

58:40

to the men, because the men have been resettled.

58:44

You know, those are sort of common situations, actually.

58:47

Interviewer

Do you have any detainees there from Syria?

58:52

-

That I work with, yeah.

58:56

Interviewer

And have they had problems

58:57

with reaching out to family because of that?

58:59

-

Yeah, I mean, and similarly in Yemen as well.

59:01

Interviewer

You mentioned Yemen was too.

59:03

-

Right now, and actually,

59:04

communications to Syria are a bit easier

59:06

than communications to Yemen right now.

59:09

Interviewer

Really?

59:11

-

Yeah, I mean, the infrastructure

59:12

in Yemen has just been completely wiped out.

59:13

So yeah, I know it's really difficult

59:16

if your country is war-torn.

59:19

Interviewer

Can you bring people out of Syria

59:22

to come to visit?

59:24

-

I doubt it.

59:26

I doubt it at the moment.

59:28

Interviewer

So do you see this program continuing,

59:31

or do you see an end to it?

59:35

-

I hope there's an end to it,

59:37

because I hope that Guantanamo will close,

59:38

and that people will get back on their feet.

59:42

I very much hope that I work myself out of a job, (laughs)

59:45

because the best thing is,

59:49

when the men don't need us anymore, that's great.

59:51

You know, I mean, that's the best thing that happens.

59:54

So yeah, I mean,

59:58

who knows what the long game is with Guantanamo?

1:00:00

I've stopped guessing because I'm always wrong,

1:00:03

but I very much hope that there won't be a need

1:00:08

for such a thing five years down the line.

1:00:10

Interviewer

Johnny, did you have anything else?

1:00:15

Johnny

No, that's it.

1:00:17

Interviewer

Will Guantanamo close,

1:00:18

or you just don't know?

1:00:20

-

Sorry?

1:00:21

-

Will Guantanamo close?

1:00:21

-

Well, I mean,

it's gotta at some point, right?

1:00:22

I hope so.

1:00:24

I mean, this can't, I mean, it's mind blowing to me.

1:00:25

I mean, there are things that,

1:00:29

because you work with it on a day-to-day basis,

1:00:30

it becomes normalized in your head that this thing exists,

1:00:32

and that it's so weird, and it's so untransparent,

1:00:34

and so little is known about the ins and outs.

1:00:38

And yet there's so much interest,

1:00:40

and once in a while, I take a step back,

1:00:44

and it's just like, "God, this is so strange."

1:00:47

You know, it's so strange that here we are in 2015,

1:00:49

and this thing exists in America.

1:00:51

Ugh.

1:00:55

(laughs)

1:00:56

I don't know what to do with it.

1:00:57

Interviewer

And when Obama was first elected,

1:00:58

did you think that he was gonna close it?

1:01:02

-

I think, didn't everyone?

1:01:04

I mean, maybe not the Republicans,

1:01:06

but I mean, yeah, I know, we drank that Kool-Aid.

1:01:07

We were like, "Okay, great.

1:01:11

You know, fab.

1:01:12

Now we can concentrate on other issues."

1:01:14

No.

1:01:17

(laughs)

1:01:18

Interviewer

Did you get that same feeling

1:01:19

from the detainees too?

1:01:20

Did they believe they'd leave?

1:01:21

-

Oh, I think massive.

1:01:23

I think there are massive ups and downs,

1:01:24

and that's in terms of working

1:01:26

with men who are still inside.

1:01:29

You know, it's a balance between not raising their hopes,

1:01:30

because in the end, we don't know,

1:01:35

so we can read the tea leaves, or hear the wind blowing,

1:01:38

and think that there might be something on the horizon,

1:01:42

but we're often wrong.

1:01:46

So it's a matter of trying to give them emotional support

1:01:48

through letters, and our lawyers' visits,

1:01:53

and things like that, but then also not raising

1:01:55

and dashing their hopes,

1:01:59

because that happens naturally anyways.

1:01:59

You know, there'll be something in the press about a new set

1:02:02

of releases, and hopes get really high,

1:02:04

or they see their comrades being released,

1:02:08

but then they're still there, you know?

1:02:11

And I think it's incredibly damaged.

1:02:12

I mean, I can't imagine it.

1:02:14

It's quite difficult to put myself in their shoes

1:02:15

with watching this over such a long period of time,

1:02:18

and with no endpoint, just no defined endpoint whatsoever.

1:02:22

I mean, that's almost the cruelest part of the whole thing.

1:02:27

Interviewer

Is there something I didn't ask you, Katie,

1:02:32

that you were thinking that you'd want to talk

1:02:33

about when you knew we were gonna be interviewing?

1:02:35

-

No, I think

1:02:38

Interviewer

We've pretty

1:02:40

much covered everything.

1:02:41

-

we've covered a fair

bit of it.

1:02:42

Yeah. Yeah.

1:02:43

Interviewer

Well, we need 20 seconds of quiet time,

1:02:43

just so that Johnny can

1:02:49

shut it down.

1:02:53

-

Cool.

Yeah.

1:02:54

Johnny

Okay, begin room tone.

1:02:56

Woman

Yeah.

1:02:58

Yeah, so I think most of them do that.

1:03:03

I think, I live in Winebrook, so I'm not impressed.

1:03:06

Well, we did quite a bit of actual guard.

1:03:12

(people speaking indistinctly)

1:03:15

Johnny

Okay, end room tone.

1:03:19

That's a lot.

1:03:21

Taylor, Katherine - Interview master file

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