Svendsen, Kent - Interview master file
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Interviewer 1 | Okay, yeah, we're rolling. | 0:05 |
Okay, good morning. | 0:07 | |
- | Good morning. | 0:08 |
Interviewer 1 | We are very grateful to you | 0:09 |
for participating in the witness to Guantanamo Project, | 0:11 | |
we invite you to speak of your experiences | 0:15 | |
and involvement at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, | 0:18 | |
we are hoping to provide you with an opportunity | 0:22 | |
to tell your story in your own words. | 0:25 | |
We are creating an archive of stories, | 0:28 | |
so that people in America and around the world | 0:30 | |
will have a better understanding of what happened, | 0:33 | |
and what you observed at Guantanamo. | 0:36 | |
Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo, | 0:40 | |
and by telling your story you're contributing to history. | 0:44 | |
We appreciate your willingness to speak with us. | 0:48 | |
If at any time during the interview you would take a break, | 0:52 | |
please let us know and we'll take a break, | 0:54 | |
and there's anything you say and you'd like to retract it | 0:56 | |
let us know and we'll retract it and we'll remove it, | 0:59 | |
so, just let us know. | 1:02 | |
And I'd like to begin with some general background, | 1:05 | |
first your name and- | 1:09 | |
- | My name is Kent Svendsen. | 1:12 |
Interviewer 1 | And your country of origin? | 1:14 |
- | United States. | 1:15 |
Interviewer 1 | And hometown? | 1:16 |
- | I live in Northern Illinois. | 1:18 |
Interviewer 1 | And your birth date and age? | 1:20 |
- | I'm turning 58, well, I just turned 58 this month | 1:22 |
October 17th, 1952. | 1:26 | |
Interviewer 1 | Happy birthday. | 1:29 |
And the nationality? | 1:31 | |
- | I'm Norwegian and German. | 1:33 |
Interviewer 1 | And marital status? | 1:36 |
- | I'm married. | 1:38 |
Interviewer 1 | With children? | 1:39 |
- | Two children. | 1:40 |
Interviewer 1 | And your education? | 1:41 |
- | I've got a masters in divinity, | 1:43 |
I've got a bachelor's in religion and philosophy | 1:45 | |
with an emphasis in biblical studies, | 1:48 | |
and I have the degrees that I earned | 1:50 | |
by being a chaplain in the army. | 1:52 | |
Interviewer 1 | And your current occupation? | 1:55 |
- | I'm a United Methodist minister, | 1:57 |
and I'm a retired military chaplain. | 2:01 | |
Interviewer 1 | And your current place of residence? | 2:04 |
- | I live in Northern Illinois area. | 2:06 |
Interviewer 1 | Okay, well, I'd like to begin | 2:07 |
by just have you talk a little bit | 2:09 | |
about how you got involved in the military, | 2:11 | |
and also how you perhaps became a chaplain, | 2:14 | |
maybe they merge, just a little background. | 2:16 | |
- | I joined the service right out of high school, | 2:19 |
joined the navy, did two tours of Vietnam on an oil tanker, | 2:22 | |
got out of the navy after four years, honorable discharge, | 2:28 | |
and then basically when my daughter was born | 2:31 | |
she was born in the middle of probably | 2:36 | |
one of the worst blizzards we had | 2:37 | |
in Northern Illinois in 1979, | 2:39 | |
and it was a national guard that came | 2:41 | |
to the rescue of many people, | 2:43 | |
where ambulance couldn't get out, | 2:45 | |
they would go in and get people to the hospital, | 2:46 | |
and I was really kind of intrigued in that ability | 2:49 | |
to kind of come to people's rescue, | 2:52 | |
and so I went down and talked | 2:54 | |
with the local National Guard Armory and signed up. | 2:56 | |
I served as an enlisted and a senior radio operator | 3:01 | |
for a year, and then I went into officer candidate school, | 3:04 | |
and did a year at officer candidate school, | 3:08 | |
and came out and became an engineer officer. | 3:10 | |
And so, in my terms of being an engineer officer | 3:12 | |
I then felt a calling in the ministry, | 3:16 | |
and after a while, one of the things that happens | 3:18 | |
is when you start doing your master's degree for a seminary, | 3:22 | |
is they want you to get in the chaplains candidate program, | 3:26 | |
'cause the military they really need chaplains, | 3:29 | |
the shortage of chaplains is tremendous, | 3:33 | |
because the chaplain is a very unique individual | 3:35 | |
that has to have specialized training, | 3:38 | |
but they also have to be open to other faith groups, | 3:40 | |
other religions, you have to accommodate those things, | 3:44 | |
so you really have to set aside | 3:46 | |
your personal religious occupation on one hand | 3:49 | |
in order to help other people | 3:52 | |
in theirs to make sure they have freedom of religion. | 3:54 | |
I've always been a peace and justice advocate, | 3:56 | |
I've always been an individual who wants to help people, | 3:58 | |
I've always been a bit of pacifist in many ways. | 4:02 | |
I remember one day my dad says, | 4:06 | |
"Why don't you go out with the guys hunting pheasants?" | 4:09 | |
and I went out and I walked around and going, | 4:11 | |
"You know, I think I'd be kind of sad | 4:14 | |
if I actually shot and killed a pheasant, | 4:15 | |
so I'm not gonna do this anymore." | 4:17 | |
And even though I've had training in weaponry, | 4:18 | |
and I have a black belt in martial arts, | 4:21 | |
I've really not ever been a violent person, | 4:24 | |
it's always been for self protection, | 4:27 | |
and I've always been kind of the protector of others. | 4:29 | |
And so I struggled with that issue of, | 4:32 | |
can I be a line officer, a line officer being | 4:35 | |
anything from engineer officer to artillery or infantry, | 4:39 | |
and lead people into battle and possibly see people killed, | 4:43 | |
and under my orders, can I do that, | 4:46 | |
and do so with a clear conscience as a Christian? | 4:49 | |
And I decided if there was anybody | 4:51 | |
that needed to be in the military, | 4:53 | |
who believed that life was sacred, | 4:54 | |
and to remind people around me that life was sacred | 4:56 | |
even those of our enemies, | 4:58 | |
that I would be doing a positive thing. | 5:00 | |
So it's kind of natural when I felt | 5:03 | |
my calling into the ministry, | 5:04 | |
to continue on that into the chaplaincy, | 5:06 | |
and it gives me a lot of insight. | 5:08 | |
And that I've been in enlisted, | 5:10 | |
I've been in two different armed forces, | 5:12 | |
I've been a line officer, and I've been a chaplain, | 5:14 | |
and so I eventually became a chaplain | 5:17 | |
and served full-time, or served as a chaplain, | 5:19 | |
at which then I was deployed to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba | 5:23 | |
in April of '04 and served there until March of '05. | 5:27 | |
Interviewer 1 | Can I just back up for a minute | 5:31 |
for my own interest, how did you have the calling | 5:33 | |
to enter the ministry being a engineer officer, | 5:36 | |
I'm not quite sure I've seen that happen? | 5:41 | |
- | It wasn't a decision, if I'm hesitating this because, | 5:48 |
sometimes when you speak to people about God talking to you, | 5:55 | |
they think you're psychotic, | 5:59 | |
you know, crazy people have God talked to them, | 6:01 | |
but honestly I really was impressed upon me through my faith | 6:03 | |
that this is what I needed to do. | 6:10 | |
I remember one day being in prayer, | 6:13 | |
and, you know, I lived kind of a wild life, | 6:17 | |
I was a very adventuresome child | 6:24 | |
that caused my parents no little concern for my activities, | 6:25 | |
and I remember the one day when I met my wife, | 6:29 | |
my future wife and we became married, | 6:33 | |
and my life was settled down, | 6:36 | |
and I was sitting next to my mother | 6:38 | |
who was watching television, | 6:40 | |
a very stoic German proper lady, | 6:41 | |
who has always been an inspiration in my life, | 6:45 | |
and I says, "Mom," I says, "you probably thought | 6:47 | |
that I'd never amount to anything, | 6:50 | |
and you probably were very worried about what could happen," | 6:51 | |
I says, "you must have really been praying for me," | 6:53 | |
in which she just reached over gently | 6:55 | |
and tapped my arm twice and said, | 6:57 | |
"Son, I'm still praying for you," | 6:58 | |
and went back to watching television. | 7:00 | |
And there was a point in which in my personal faith | 7:03 | |
I said to God, "I will go anywhere, | 7:06 | |
and do anything you want me to do | 7:08 | |
as long as I know you want me to do it." | 7:10 | |
And I would speak with the voice of the prophet, | 7:12 | |
and I would speak with a voice that challenges people | 7:15 | |
and tries to help them find healing | 7:19 | |
and wholeness in their life. | 7:21 | |
And it was during that whole process | 7:24 | |
that I literally had a time in which God revealed to me | 7:26 | |
that what I needed to be was a minister, | 7:31 | |
and there's much more to that story | 7:33 | |
and I enjoy telling that at times, | 7:35 | |
but it can be quite complicated. | 7:38 | |
And so I basically went to my wife and said, | 7:40 | |
"I really believe that God wants me | 7:43 | |
to change my career pathway and to go | 7:45 | |
into the ordained ministry," at which she says, | 7:48 | |
"I confirm that that's what you should do, | 7:50 | |
since it's what God has impressed upon me too," | 7:52 | |
and I hadn't even talked to her about it, | 7:54 | |
so it was a confirmation | 7:56 | |
that that's the direction I should go in. | 7:57 | |
And so, I immediately went and got my bachelor's | 7:59 | |
and master's degree, and the rest is history. | 8:02 | |
Interviewer 1 | So, since you've worked in Guantanamo, | 8:07 |
before we go to Guantanamo, did you know anything | 8:09 | |
about Guantanamo before you were signed, | 8:12 | |
or did you volunteer, how did that happen? | 8:14 | |
- | We were actually slated, | 8:17 |
I was serving in a unit in Milwaukee and I was told, | 8:18 | |
"Good news, you won't be going anywhere," | 8:23 | |
and I went home from that assembly, | 8:27 | |
and received a phone call from my commander saying, | 8:30 | |
"Guess what, we're cross-leveling you to Inkster, Michigan | 8:32 | |
which is outside of Detroit, | 8:35 | |
and you're gonna be assigned temporarily | 8:37 | |
to a military police unit, | 8:39 | |
and more than likely you're going to Iraq. | 8:42 | |
So I am doing cultural briefings preparing | 8:45 | |
to talk to them about your proper ways | 8:47 | |
of not getting yourself in trouble in foreign countries, | 8:50 | |
and ways of dealing with people, | 8:53 | |
and doing briefings on Iraq, | 8:55 | |
and then as military often happens, guess what, | 8:57 | |
you're not going to do Iraq, | 9:01 | |
you're going to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba." | 9:02 | |
So then of course, I did my research | 9:04 | |
as well as I could about Cuba but, | 9:07 | |
there wasn't a whole lot of time to do that. | 9:09 | |
It was also interesting that | 9:11 | |
as we're being processed at forest sticks | 9:13 | |
in terms of getting ready to go overseas, | 9:16 | |
that was when the whole controversy | 9:18 | |
I will grab was on the news and it was hitting. | 9:20 | |
And so, that was kind of my jumpstart | 9:25 | |
into what I was getting into in terms of going into Cuba, | 9:28 | |
and I spent most of my time there studying | 9:31 | |
the issues surrounding the issue of terrorism, | 9:35 | |
the issue of a radical Islam, | 9:38 | |
and a lot of those associated topics. | 9:41 | |
Interviewer 1 | You didn't know that much about Guantanamo | 9:45 |
before you knew you were gonna be sent there? | 9:47 | |
- | Well, I knew we had a base there, | 9:51 |
and I knew about the issue between our nation | 9:53 | |
not willing to give the land back to Castro, | 9:56 | |
I knew all about that, you know, | 9:57 | |
obviously that's part of history, | 9:59 | |
and I've always had an interest, | 10:01 | |
I have traveled to central and South America, | 10:04 | |
so I always was interested in the politics | 10:07 | |
of the Caribbean and all those issues, | 10:10 | |
so, I knew about those things. | 10:12 | |
Interviewer 1 | Were you apprehensive at all | 10:14 |
about going to Guantanamo? | 10:16 | |
- | No, simply because there's a little difference | 10:20 |
between having the possibility of being blown up | 10:24 | |
by an IED while driving to Baghdad | 10:26 | |
and going to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, | 10:29 | |
where you have so much security | 10:31 | |
there's no way anybody is gonna get in there | 10:32 | |
and do anything to harm you, | 10:34 | |
I knew that I would have a safe tour | 10:35 | |
in which I wouldn't get killed. | 10:37 | |
So, I actually went with great interest, | 10:38 | |
and with the anticipation to be able to use | 10:41 | |
my talents and abilities in order to make a difference | 10:44 | |
in terms of helping the soldiers, the service members, | 10:47 | |
there was more than just soldiers there, | 10:51 | |
the service members dealing with what they had to face | 10:52 | |
in terms of Combat Stress, problems back home, | 10:55 | |
advising the commander and issues relating | 10:58 | |
to morale, morals, and how religion affects our job. | 11:00 | |
So you can see how important | 11:08 | |
that role was that I played there, | 11:10 | |
and I actually found it quite encouraging | 11:12 | |
in terms of the exciting ability to be part of history. | 11:15 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did you know before you went there | 11:20 |
that you were not going to counsel any of the detainees, | 11:21 | |
were you informed about that? | 11:25 | |
- | It wasn't until I met the commander, | 11:28 |
you know, I worked for the commander, | 11:30 | |
JDOG is the acronym for the Joint Detention Operation Group, | 11:32 | |
and the commander brought me into his office, | 11:38 | |
and brought me to attention, and came right up into my face | 11:42 | |
and looked at me and says, "Chaplain, under no circumstances | 11:46 | |
you have any kind of conversation, | 11:49 | |
or even say hello to a detainee." | 11:52 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did he explain why? | 11:54 |
- | Well, he explained why in terms of, | 11:55 |
the person that I relieved had taken | 11:59 | |
the place of Chaplain Yee, | 12:01 | |
and Chaplain Yee was the Muslim chaplain | 12:04 | |
whom the military had considered espionage charges against | 12:07 | |
because of his activities, | 12:12 | |
and I don't wanna go any farther than that, | 12:14 | |
just to say that Chaplain Yee basically took the initiative | 12:15 | |
of giving the detainees more and more rights, | 12:22 | |
which really were not the rights but privileges, | 12:25 | |
and was causing a very big disruption in the camp | 12:28 | |
because of the antagonism was created | 12:31 | |
because of his activities, | 12:34 | |
and so therefore it was thought the best | 12:35 | |
to simply not allow the chaplain | 12:37 | |
to talk to the detainees or have any direct contact | 12:39 | |
with them, and that would solve the problem. | 12:41 | |
You know, I was however in charge of, | 12:45 | |
again, relating to things such as the observance of Ramadan, | 12:47 | |
you know, the proper ways of treating the Quran, | 12:51 | |
the proper ways of providing religious items | 12:54 | |
that the detainees needed for worship, | 12:57 | |
and dealing with issues relating to soldiers, | 13:01 | |
and so, I was as close as I am, | 13:04 | |
viewed the detainees in many occasions, | 13:07 | |
they even spoke to me and I couldn't so much to say | 13:10 | |
assalamu alaikum, I couldn't say anything to them, | 13:12 | |
and so I hid behind my sunglasses and basically didn't talk, | 13:15 | |
and explained to the guards, | 13:18 | |
I'm not allowed to talk to them, | 13:21 | |
as much as I would love to be able | 13:22 | |
to have that conversation, I can't. | 13:23 | |
And many of the guards had some very good rapport | 13:26 | |
with the detainees in the camp, | 13:30 | |
and so I related to them through the guards. | 13:32 | |
Interviewer 1 | Were you disappointed | 13:36 |
you weren't able to talk to the detainees? | 13:37 | |
- | Yes, yes. | 13:41 |
Interviewer 1 | Because? | 13:43 |
- | Because I'm always interested in, you know, | 13:45 |
how to relate to people that are different than me, | 13:48 | |
I wanted very much to know | 13:51 | |
who these Muslim individuals were, | 13:54 | |
and what they held is valuable, | 13:57 | |
and in what their hopes and dreams were. | 13:59 | |
And the biggest issue of bigotry and prejudice | 14:01 | |
in this world is that, we don't take the time to stop | 14:05 | |
to understand people that are different than us, | 14:07 | |
and understand why they're different from us, | 14:09 | |
and that's not necessarily a bad thing. | 14:11 | |
When we tend to stereotype and to put people | 14:14 | |
into categories and say they are different than us, | 14:16 | |
so therefore they're somehow wrong, | 14:20 | |
or somehow we don't have a vested interest | 14:21 | |
in their wellbeing. | 14:23 | |
You know, we are all human beings | 14:25 | |
and we need to take a vested interest in each other, | 14:27 | |
and it's hard to be an enemy | 14:29 | |
with somebody that you know is a friend. | 14:32 | |
And so I think, that was the thing | 14:36 | |
where I would really love to learn more about | 14:37 | |
and to understand, and to be in service | 14:41 | |
in terms of caring for their needs, | 14:44 | |
and making a very difficult situation for them | 14:47 | |
a little more bearable | 14:50 | |
Interviewer 1 | You weren't able to convince | 14:53 |
the higher ranks going up the ladder | 14:57 | |
that maybe it would be helpful | 14:58 | |
if you did speak to them there? | 15:01 | |
- | That was a closed door that wasn't gonna be open, | 15:05 |
and that was very apparent. | 15:07 | |
What you learn early on in the chaplaincy is that, | 15:10 | |
the chaplain while listened to, | 15:14 | |
and whose advice is readily received most of the time, | 15:18 | |
you're not in the process of changing policy, | 15:22 | |
now, I expressed, I won't say concerns, | 15:24 | |
I expressed my disappointment | 15:30 | |
in not being able to have regular conversations | 15:32 | |
with the detainees, but basically that's it, | 15:35 | |
if that had gone somewhere that's fine, | 15:38 | |
but I certainly wouldn't have raised it with the command, | 15:40 | |
because it was very, very clear | 15:43 | |
what the commander's position was, | 15:45 | |
and the way it was presented to me basically said, | 15:46 | |
"Don't even ask, this is what you're gonna do, | 15:50 | |
this is what you aren't gonna do," | 15:52 | |
and it was the bottom line. | 15:54 | |
And, you know, it was the first issue | 15:55 | |
that was raised with me, it wasn't a side or the end issue | 15:57 | |
that says, "Well, it'd be better if you didn't," | 16:00 | |
it was, "You will not chaplain, do you understand this?" | 16:02 | |
Which indicated there was consequences | 16:05 | |
if I didn't understand and I got out of my lane. | 16:07 | |
Interviewer 1 | So when you first arrived in Guantanamo, | 16:11 |
what was your initial impressions of the base? | 16:13 | |
- | I've been to a lot of military bases, | 16:20 |
and, you know, it's just like a little bit of America | 16:22 | |
but out there it's desert there. | 16:30 | |
You think of Guantanamo Bay, there isn't really much, | 16:32 | |
the land isn't really worth anything, | 16:35 | |
it's all desert, I think it rained twice when I was there, | 16:37 | |
and you could've stayed out in it | 16:40 | |
and you'd been dry within five minutes, | 16:42 | |
I mean, there just wasn't any water there, | 16:43 | |
and a lot of iguanas and turkey buzzards, | 16:46 | |
but there wasn't much else there. | 16:49 | |
But the base is just the typical army base | 16:52 | |
in which you go in and set up all the typical things you do, | 16:54 | |
and the USO, and McDonald's, and Starbucks, | 16:56 | |
and all the other things that jump up there, | 17:02 | |
and it wasn't until you, you went down that road, | 17:04 | |
in other words, you went from the main base in, | 17:06 | |
I guess I can't go there, | 17:12 | |
let's just say that as you go to where I served, | 17:13 | |
there was a constant situation in which | 17:17 | |
less and less people could go in further | 17:20 | |
for security reasons and needed reasons. | 17:23 | |
And so, what was the normal navy base and where I served, | 17:25 | |
were two radically different places. | 17:29 | |
Interviewer 1 | You served behind the wire? | 17:31 |
- | I served behind the wire, | 17:32 |
I was the only chaplain serving inside the wire, | 17:33 | |
that's correct. | 17:35 | |
Interviewer 1 | And your office was behind the wire? | 17:36 |
- | And my office was behind the wire, yes. | 17:38 |
Interviewer 1 | And were your residents also behind | 17:40 |
the wire or did you leave? | 17:42 | |
- | No, my residence was not, | 17:43 |
I had to go through a number of security checkpoints | 17:45 | |
to get into where my office was. | 17:48 | |
Interviewer 1 | Could you describe a typical day | 17:51 |
of your job while behind the wire? | 17:53 | |
- | Well, after I got up and did | 17:58 |
my morning physical fitness training, | 18:01 | |
they gave me a vehicle to use, | 18:04 | |
because I oftentimes had to go | 18:06 | |
to very many different places where buses didn't go, | 18:09 | |
I would simply drive down park in the parking lot, | 18:11 | |
go in through the gate, through the security, | 18:14 | |
and find my office. | 18:17 | |
And my chaplain assistant who worked with me | 18:21 | |
was the one that actually went around | 18:23 | |
distributing the prayer caps, the prayer beads, | 18:25 | |
the prayer oil and all those issues, | 18:28 | |
which is one of the main jobs that we had | 18:30 | |
of providing religious supplies to the detainees, | 18:32 | |
and he would come in and I would counsel with him, | 18:35 | |
he would do his checklist, | 18:39 | |
and he would head off to go do his duty. | 18:40 | |
Interviewer 1 | So, who was he, was he a chaplain also | 18:42 |
or your assistant? | 18:46 | |
- | No, each chaplain, you have a chaplain | 18:46 |
and each chaplain has a chaplain assistant, | 18:49 | |
a chaplain assistant is an enlisted person | 18:52 | |
who actually is an assistant to the chaplain, | 18:54 | |
they're normally the driver for the chaplain, | 18:57 | |
they're normally the person who sets up the worship sites | 19:00 | |
for the chaplain to hold religious services, | 19:04 | |
the chaplain assistant has other jobs that they do | 19:06 | |
in order to help with the chaplaincy process. | 19:11 | |
They can be an individual who helps to assess | 19:14 | |
whether somebody needs further counseling, | 19:17 | |
they can assess whether somebody is homicidal | 19:19 | |
or suicidal, or needing Combat Stress, | 19:21 | |
they're trained in those particular areas. | 19:25 | |
And so my chaplain assistant would basically do | 19:28 | |
the footwork of the chaplain. | 19:31 | |
While I was there I distributed, | 19:36 | |
I think it was about 1400 pounds of candy | 19:38 | |
that was donated to me from people | 19:40 | |
all over the United States, and so I'd have- | 19:42 | |
Interviewer 1 | Who did the distribution? | 19:44 |
- | Oh well, the guards. | 19:46 |
And so it was my ability to be in ministry, | 19:48 | |
close ministry to the guards because, | 19:52 | |
usually you think of yourself as, | 19:54 | |
I'm this hardcore person that doesn't have any problems, | 19:57 | |
where I can face anything that I'm facing, | 19:59 | |
I told them there's a problem with being Rambo, you aren't, | 20:01 | |
and there are times in which you need to reach out | 20:06 | |
and show strength to get help, | 20:08 | |
you know, personal problems they have at home, | 20:09 | |
problems with their marriage, separation, | 20:12 | |
or even if issues of dealing with issues in the camp. | 20:14 | |
For instance, there was approximately 10% | 20:18 | |
of the detainees or the radical hardcore folks | 20:21 | |
who would injure a guard if given the chance, | 20:25 | |
we even had to be careful about how much prayer oil | 20:30 | |
we gave them because they would mix feces, and sperm, | 20:32 | |
and anything else they get ahold of in the prayer oil | 20:36 | |
and throw it on the guards if they got a chance, | 20:38 | |
and it just basically would ruin your uniforms, | 20:40 | |
you couldn't get the smell out of your uniform, | 20:42 | |
and then you'd have to change the uniforms | 20:45 | |
or try to wash it out, | 20:47 | |
or maybe there was a situation | 20:49 | |
where one of the guards got attacked, | 20:51 | |
and so I was a source there to help them | 20:54 | |
in terms of coping with what they face, | 20:56 | |
Combat Stress, dealt with the psychological aspect of it. | 20:58 | |
I was the counselor, I was the one that dealt with the, | 21:02 | |
I'll call it the spiritual aspect, but it's our wellbeing, | 21:07 | |
the spiritual aspect being that we're comfortable | 21:11 | |
with who we are and where we're at, | 21:13 | |
and I was also the one that, you know, | 21:15 | |
along with Combat Stress, | 21:17 | |
I don't wanna minimize their role anyway, | 21:19 | |
to determine whether somebody needed to get further help | 21:21 | |
or whether they were a danger to be behind the wire | 21:25 | |
in terms of possibly acting out in ways | 21:28 | |
in which they would show aggression toward the detainees, | 21:31 | |
it wasn't called for such as a cell extraction would. | 21:35 | |
And so, I would deal with them | 21:38 | |
in terms of assessing where they were in their mental state. | 21:40 | |
Interviewer 1 | Can you give me a particular, | 21:45 |
just so we have an understanding | 21:47 | |
how a guard might need your counsel. | 21:50 | |
- | Okay, I always kept my big thing of candy | 21:54 |
right inside the door, so there was always | 21:57 | |
a parade of people coming in and out getting candy, | 21:59 | |
so what would happen in a typical time was, | 22:02 | |
somebody would say, "I'm gonna go get a piece of chant candy | 22:05 | |
from the chaplain," they'd walk in the door, | 22:07 | |
take a piece of candy and then close the door, | 22:08 | |
and then nobody was worrying | 22:11 | |
about why they're seeing the chaplain. | 22:12 | |
And they would sit down and talk to me, | 22:15 | |
a lot of what I did had to do | 22:17 | |
with helping them with issues back home, | 22:19 | |
"My wife just told me she's going to divorce me," | 22:22 | |
or "We're having financial problems," | 22:25 | |
"My wife's sick and we don't have anybody nearby us | 22:28 | |
who can take care of the children," | 22:31 | |
"There is a dangerous situation back home," | 22:34 | |
whatever it might be, a lot of it was helping them | 22:36 | |
have peace of mind that we would have resources back home | 22:40 | |
to take care of their problems back home. | 22:43 | |
And we have a reservist, | 22:46 | |
so, it wasn't like we're active duty. | 22:47 | |
You know, you're used to going on one weekend | 22:49 | |
a month in for training, but you're not used | 22:51 | |
to being taken away from your family and shipped overseas, | 22:54 | |
and so it creates a lot of problems | 22:57 | |
that active duty folks don't experience | 22:59 | |
because they're used to, I mean, they still have problems, | 23:01 | |
but it isn't such a radical transformation, | 23:03 | |
and so we oftentimes work with helping | 23:06 | |
those individuals with the problems to had back home. | 23:09 | |
Some reservist quite honestly, | 23:13 | |
especially if you're a lower ranked enlisted person, | 23:15 | |
take huge cuts in pay, because their civilian job | 23:18 | |
they may be in construction, | 23:22 | |
or another job where they're making labor wages | 23:23 | |
and they're making a very good wage, | 23:26 | |
and all of a sudden their income is cut by two thirds, | 23:27 | |
well, that creates its own stresses back home | 23:31 | |
in terms of family. | 23:32 | |
And so typically I would work with that, | 23:34 | |
or I would work with people who were dealing | 23:36 | |
with alcoholism problems perhaps, | 23:39 | |
obviously, you weren't dealing with problems | 23:42 | |
because they do drug testing, | 23:45 | |
so, that's pretty well solves that problem | 23:47 | |
if you're constantly being tested for it. | 23:49 | |
The other thing would be issues | 23:52 | |
of things they faced within the camp. | 23:54 | |
Interviewer 1 | Could you describe what that might be? | 23:57 |
- | Well, I talked about the issue of the 10% | 23:59 |
which they were constantly in danger | 24:02 | |
of being headbutted or attacked in some way, | 24:04 | |
for instance, the long water spickets, | 24:07 | |
you know, the detainees would break them off | 24:11 | |
and then hide them, and when a guard came in | 24:14 | |
to escort them to a medical appointment | 24:16 | |
or to wherever they were taking them, | 24:19 | |
they would hide that and then attack them with it, | 24:21 | |
so we basically took all those spickets off | 24:24 | |
and put these really short ones they couldn't break off. | 24:26 | |
And that creates its own stress | 24:30 | |
because you never know what's going to happen, | 24:31 | |
it causes fear and anxiety. | 24:33 | |
And so we would purposely rotate people | 24:35 | |
through those positions, to other areas | 24:37 | |
where the detainees weren't as dangerous | 24:40 | |
and didn't react in such a way, | 24:41 | |
you know, dealing with people that were facing those things. | 24:44 | |
Many of the reservists, I mean, | 24:47 | |
you can imagine a number of them | 24:51 | |
were police officers back home because, | 24:52 | |
being a police officer and being a military MP, | 24:54 | |
it's logical that you would work in the same areas, | 24:57 | |
but a lot of the folks that were doing that | 25:00 | |
had never faced that kind of trauma, | 25:02 | |
or that kind of stressful situations | 25:07 | |
or that kind of dangers, | 25:09 | |
and so it's helping them cope with that. | 25:11 | |
Interviewer 1 | What might you say to them | 25:15 |
to help them cope with that? | 25:16 | |
(clears throat) | 25:19 | |
- | Well, first of all, I'd applaud them for coming | 25:21 |
and talking to me, you know, you always wanna present | 25:26 | |
a positive aspect, they're coming to me kind of broken, | 25:30 | |
and I'm saying, "Well, I'm so glad you came | 25:33 | |
and talked to me, this shows your quality of character, | 25:35 | |
your reaction is a normal reaction to what you just faced, | 25:40 | |
you're not crazy, you're not weak, | 25:44 | |
basically, you're dealing with something | 25:47 | |
that you haven't dealt with before, | 25:48 | |
and you can learn to cope with that, | 25:50 | |
go to Combat Stress and talk to them about these issues too, | 25:52 | |
and let them work with you in terms of helping you | 25:56 | |
dealing with developing a mindset and the tools you need, | 25:58 | |
the mental tools to face the job that you have to face." | 26:02 | |
And so, it was mostly reassuring them in a positive way, | 26:07 | |
that there is a way to deal with what they're facing, | 26:12 | |
and come out of the end of the process intact. | 26:15 | |
Now, obviously there's traumatic issues | 26:19 | |
that we all face in our lives that will carry with forever, | 26:23 | |
there's no difference here either, | 26:27 | |
if you were a guard and suddenly you were attacked | 26:29 | |
and injured by a detainee, that can be something | 26:34 | |
that you can carry with you forever | 26:37 | |
in terms of trying to deal with that, | 26:39 | |
so that's basically what I do. | 26:42 | |
Interviewer 1 | You ever have guards come to you and say | 26:43 |
that they felt badly for the detainees, | 26:46 | |
reverse situation where they see the men, | 26:48 | |
and then actually these men aren't really | 26:51 | |
necessarily terrorists, did guards ever come to you | 26:53 | |
and say they're not sure about their role as guards? | 26:56 | |
- | Occasionally, but everything was in doubt, | 27:03 |
you don't know when somebody is telling you | 27:06 | |
the truth or lying to you. | 27:08 | |
And so, they were sympathetic in terms of saying, | 27:11 | |
"If I put myself in that position, | 27:16 | |
I would hate to live under these conditions," | 27:17 | |
I mean, obviously, living in a small cell, | 27:19 | |
and being confined there, | 27:23 | |
and not having the freedom to go do what you want, | 27:25 | |
it's no different than if you went | 27:28 | |
to a jail in the United States. | 27:29 | |
There are folks that would be sympathetic | 27:32 | |
to the fact that they're here | 27:34 | |
and they're not home with their families. | 27:37 | |
I also dealt with an issue in which I had a Muslim soldier | 27:40 | |
come in and sit down and say, "I have kind of a crisis here | 27:46 | |
because these are my brother Muslims, | 27:50 | |
how do I deal with what I'm doing serving as a guard, | 27:55 | |
and the fact that these are my brothers in the faith?" | 27:58 | |
And I would explain to them, I was saying, | 28:03 | |
"As brothers in the faith, what's the best thing | 28:07 | |
that you can do for them, isn't it to make sure | 28:11 | |
that they're treated humanely? | 28:15 | |
I mean, obviously you and I neither one of us have a power | 28:17 | |
to change what's happening right here, | 28:20 | |
we don't have that authority, | 28:21 | |
so the best that you can do | 28:23 | |
is make the best of the situation, | 28:25 | |
you're a service member in the military, | 28:27 | |
you're serving honorably, you're a person of high character, | 28:29 | |
the fact that you're in a quandary over this | 28:32 | |
of how to deal with and to reconcile these two things, | 28:35 | |
shows the quality of character that you have, | 28:40 | |
we need people just like you serving in these positions, | 28:43 | |
to be a moral compass for the rest of the people out there, | 28:47 | |
and that's how you can reconcile this, | 28:50 | |
to simply say I can't do this in walking away, | 28:53 | |
we really need you out there to set the example." | 28:57 | |
Interviewer 1 | Well, in this matter did anyone else | 29:02 |
say to you that they thought there might be | 29:04 | |
some abusive situations going on | 29:06 | |
the way some people treated detainees, | 29:10 | |
did you ever hear about that? | 29:12 | |
- | Well, as a chaplain I'm a reporting agent, | 29:13 |
in other words, you do not break the chain of command, | 29:15 | |
in other words, if something like that | 29:20 | |
were to have happened, | 29:21 | |
you're not supposed to go to the general, | 29:26 | |
or you're not supposed to go to outside things, | 29:27 | |
you're supposed to respect your chain of command | 29:29 | |
because it can be a matter of life and death | 29:32 | |
in many circumstances. | 29:33 | |
But the chaplain is an exception to that rule, | 29:35 | |
they can come to the chaplain, | 29:37 | |
and the chaplain is reporting source of abuse, | 29:39 | |
so that then it can be dealt with in the proper manner, | 29:42 | |
because then they don't get in trouble | 29:45 | |
with telling it to the chaplain, | 29:47 | |
which they might get in trouble | 29:48 | |
if they told it to somebody else. | 29:50 | |
And again, I'm speaking only about what I know of, | 29:54 | |
and I know of the guards, you know, I want it to be clear | 29:57 | |
that I'm not speaking a blanket statement | 30:01 | |
about everything that went on there, | 30:04 | |
but only what I did or didn't experience. | 30:05 | |
During that time I never had any report to me | 30:08 | |
by a guard or anybody else, | 30:11 | |
of any kind of abuse, mistreatment, | 30:13 | |
human rights violations, anything like that | 30:15 | |
being perpetrated against the detainees. | 30:17 | |
I was part of the indoctrinating groups | 30:23 | |
that gave new incoming service members, | 30:26 | |
tell them about what they're supposed to do | 30:30 | |
what they're not supposed to do, | 30:32 | |
and part of that training that we gave | 30:33 | |
to every soldier was this idea, | 30:35 | |
that you refrained from your human rights abuse, | 30:39 | |
you don't participate in it, | 30:42 | |
if you have the authority to stop it you stop it, | 30:43 | |
if you don't, you simply remove yourself from the situation, | 30:46 | |
it's considered an unlawful order | 30:49 | |
if you are ordered to participate in it, | 30:51 | |
and you're supposed to report it. | 30:53 | |
So that's basically the training | 30:56 | |
everyone received in terms of the guards. | 30:57 | |
And so at speaking of the guards | 31:00 | |
and their everyday interaction with the detainees, | 31:01 | |
that's what they were supposed to do, | 31:05 | |
that was their standard operating procedures, | 31:07 | |
we certainly wanted to prevent something happening | 31:10 | |
from what happened in Abu Ghraib, | 31:13 | |
which was an obvious example of people doing things | 31:16 | |
that they weren't supposed to do. | 31:20 | |
Interviewer 1 | What about from interrogators, | 31:22 |
maybe not from the guards, | 31:25 | |
did you ever meet with interrogators, | 31:26 | |
did they ever talk to you about the interrogation? | 31:28 | |
- | I did have conversations with interrogators, | 31:30 |
the only thing that I can say about that is, | 31:34 | |
they were under constraints from sharing | 31:39 | |
really anything that went on within the interrogation room, | 31:43 | |
in other words, they could talk about being depressed, | 31:46 | |
discouraged, down, or whatever, but they could not talk | 31:49 | |
to me about specifics of what had went on there | 31:55 | |
because of their are order | 31:57 | |
about how they're supposed to handle that, | 32:00 | |
that was considered things you didn't talk about | 32:02 | |
for security reasons. | 32:06 | |
Interviewer 1 | So, could you have gotten the impression | 32:08 |
that maybe something's been going on | 32:10 | |
that people weren't telling you, | 32:12 | |
for various reasons they weren't disclosing it to you? | 32:14 | |
- | You know, again, for me to comment on that | 32:20 |
I would have to start speculating, | 32:22 | |
now, there are always stories that went on | 32:26 | |
in terms of some of the procedures | 32:28 | |
that happened in terms of... | 32:30 | |
I guess if I went there I would be basically | 32:35 | |
giving you gossip, and rather than give you a gossip | 32:39 | |
I much rather talk about things I specifically knew about. | 32:42 | |
Interviewer 1 | Well, I guess I was more interested | 32:45 |
in just your own sense of the world, | 32:47 | |
if you knew that some things weren't being told to you, | 32:49 | |
if you began to wonder if maybe there was more | 32:52 | |
behind the curtain than you really were aware of, | 32:55 | |
I'm not interested in gossip just from your own perspective. | 32:58 | |
- | I'll go this far in that. | 33:01 |
Let's take for instance my expertise, | 33:04 | |
which is what happened with the guards in the cell blocks, | 33:07 | |
during this process, they attempted to fine tune his system | 33:11 | |
which would help prevent the detainees | 33:16 | |
from reacting, you know, being in a cell, | 33:19 | |
a lot of times you get frustrated and you act out, | 33:23 | |
well, how can we develop a system | 33:25 | |
in which we'll have less acting out, | 33:27 | |
that will protect the detainees from injury, | 33:29 | |
that will protect our service members from injury? | 33:31 | |
And they had a system of privileges and rewards, | 33:33 | |
in other words, you had privileges that could be taken away. | 33:37 | |
So, if you for instance try to attack a guard | 33:41 | |
or refuse to come out of your cell | 33:44 | |
had to be forcibly taken out, | 33:45 | |
you would have privileges taken away, | 33:47 | |
such as perhaps you wouldn't have your prayer rug, | 33:49 | |
or prayer oil, or whatever, or you wouldn't have | 33:52 | |
as much free time to get exercise, | 33:54 | |
and then as each day click by | 33:58 | |
which you didn't do something, | 34:01 | |
you were then issued back those privileges | 34:02 | |
to try to encourage you to act in a way | 34:05 | |
that didn't lose you these privilege, | 34:09 | |
you had something to lose. | 34:11 | |
I will say that one comment that I did hear was, | 34:13 | |
there was one individual who loved pizza, | 34:18 | |
and so if the person was cooperative, | 34:23 | |
they brought him pizza, | 34:27 | |
I think that's probably where I need to leave that light | 34:30 | |
because, again, I be talking and I'd have to be guessing. | 34:33 | |
Interviewer 1 | Cooperative meaning, | 34:38 |
what does cooperative mean, you mean not? | 34:40 | |
- | Well, cooperative means that you're dialoguing | 34:45 |
with the people that are asking you questions, | 34:49 | |
you aren't just sitting there with your arms folded | 34:51 | |
and saying, "I'm not gonna say anything to you," | 34:53 | |
you're actively trying to understand | 34:56 | |
what they're saying to you, and trying to give a response. | 34:59 | |
Within the camp there is various levels of security, | 35:03 | |
you obviously had that 10% that could be, | 35:06 | |
we're on the guard for being attacked by, | 35:12 | |
we even had plexiglass, sheets that were put up | 35:14 | |
all along the cell blocks to prevent | 35:17 | |
the throwing of things on the guards, | 35:20 | |
so that's 10% | 35:22 | |
At the time I was there the detainee population, | 35:25 | |
I don't know that I could even go there, | 35:29 | |
but let's just say 10% of the detainees | 35:31 | |
were in that category. | 35:33 | |
- | How long were you there? | |
- | I was there from April of '04 to March of '05. | 35:35 |
So you have that 10% who were basically | 35:40 | |
couldn't be trusted, and then you have another percentage | 35:43 | |
which they're not very cooperative, | 35:48 | |
in other words, they basically | 35:51 | |
would not cooperative with any kind of information, | 35:53 | |
and then you had another group that was approximately, | 35:56 | |
I'm gonna say probably 20% of the the population there | 35:59 | |
who were very cooperative, and who were very open, | 36:05 | |
who were allowed to live communally | 36:07 | |
according to their country of origin. | 36:09 | |
So you'd have a group that was allowed | 36:12 | |
to live in an open bay, and they were able | 36:14 | |
to eat together community, | 36:16 | |
and worship together community, | 36:18 | |
and watch sporting events that they came in that was taped, | 36:20 | |
and played ping pong and games, | 36:23 | |
and they were given a lot more freedoms | 36:26 | |
and availability to be in open space. | 36:27 | |
And so, you have those three different categories | 36:32 | |
of security, and it all depended upon | 36:36 | |
whether you were in dialogue with the people | 36:38 | |
asking you questions, or whether you were just belligerently | 36:41 | |
choosing not to give them any information. | 36:44 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did you know that, some studies have shown | 36:48 |
that over 80% of the men there have been purchased | 36:52 | |
by the US when they were first seized, | 36:56 | |
that apparently the US paid Pakistan army | 37:00 | |
and other Afghanistan tribal leaders money | 37:04 | |
for these mens, do you know any of that? | 37:09 | |
- | Yes, I knew of their reward system, | 37:11 |
and the issue raised by that is that, | 37:13 | |
was the person there | 37:17 | |
because they were legitimately studying terrorism, | 37:19 | |
or were they were there because somebody saw an opportunity | 37:22 | |
for somebody who wasn't from their community, | 37:25 | |
which they could sell them | 37:27 | |
as a terrorist and make some money? | 37:29 | |
I mean, that was obviously the big question. | 37:31 | |
One of the things that was constantly going on | 37:33 | |
is a vetting system, in which they were trying to decide, | 37:36 | |
is this person here because they're part | 37:39 | |
of the terrorism network, or were they caught up in that, | 37:42 | |
and should they be sent back home? | 37:45 | |
That was constantly a topic of consideration. | 37:48 | |
And there was people coming and going all the time, | 37:52 | |
there were people that were sent back home. | 37:56 | |
You know, obviously there were some factors | 37:58 | |
which still are in play today, | 38:00 | |
for instance, let's say you decide that somebody | 38:02 | |
should not be there anymore, | 38:04 | |
what do you do When their country of origin | 38:07 | |
doesn't want them, or is going to kill them | 38:11 | |
as soon as you send them home, | 38:13 | |
where then do you send them? | 38:14 | |
And if there's no other country that will take them, | 38:17 | |
then what do you do with them? | 38:19 | |
That's one of the issues that it's gonna continue on | 38:21 | |
with this whole process | 38:24 | |
in terms of the presence of Guantanamo Bay. | 38:25 | |
The other issue is, is there was at least two incidents | 38:28 | |
that I won't speak to the individual's names, | 38:31 | |
but in one instance they decided that the person, | 38:33 | |
"You know what, we think we got the wrong person here, | 38:36 | |
let's send them home." | 38:38 | |
And the person was sent home, | 38:40 | |
and then immediately it was discovered | 38:42 | |
he was part of a group that kidnapped two Chinese engineers, | 38:44 | |
and cut their heads off with a handsaw. | 38:48 | |
And there was another instance | 38:50 | |
of an individual who was sent home, | 38:51 | |
who then was killed two weeks later | 38:53 | |
in a frontal attack on our soldiers, | 38:55 | |
they thought he was innocent and sent them home, | 38:58 | |
and so you can understand the quandary | 39:01 | |
of not wanting to turn somebody loose | 39:03 | |
who can then do those kinds of things, | 39:06 | |
so, it was very, very difficult to try | 39:08 | |
to understand who was telling the truth, | 39:11 | |
and who was simply giving you a good story. | 39:14 | |
I mean, the Al-Qaeda network and the terrorists | 39:17 | |
are well-trained in many ways, | 39:20 | |
and they have a training in which tells them | 39:22 | |
how to work with the system, how to talk about things. | 39:27 | |
Interviewer 1 | How do you know about that? | 39:32 |
- | Basically by, | 39:36 |
I can't give you my sources in that | 39:41 | |
because it's classified information for one, | 39:42 | |
but on the other hand there are a number of situations | 39:45 | |
in which you hear these common stories, | 39:48 | |
for instance, how did the story in Newsweek come out | 39:52 | |
that supposedly a Quran was flushed down the toilet | 39:55 | |
that never happened, I mean, the American soldiers | 39:58 | |
would not even touch their Qurans, | 40:01 | |
we had problems where we'd move the soldier | 40:03 | |
for maybe we're upgrading the facility, | 40:06 | |
we have the new facility fixed up, | 40:08 | |
it's nicer than the old one, | 40:09 | |
we move them over, but the person happened to be going | 40:11 | |
to the dentist, or the doctor at the time it's done, | 40:14 | |
and they bring them back to his new cell | 40:17 | |
but his Quran still in the old cell, | 40:18 | |
how did we get his Quran to him, | 40:20 | |
how do we do that without causing a riot | 40:23 | |
because nonbelievers handled their holy book? | 40:24 | |
But you had situations in which you were kind of given | 40:30 | |
the same story over and over again | 40:34 | |
about what had happened to him, | 40:36 | |
and there was just too many similarities, | 40:39 | |
the story came in the same order, with the same wording, | 40:41 | |
well, does that exact thing happen | 40:45 | |
to 50 different people exactly in the same way, | 40:48 | |
or was there some sort of training given them | 40:52 | |
to say, "Here's what you need to say happen to you?" | 40:55 | |
And so that's why when for instance | 40:58 | |
I watched some of the testimonies, | 41:01 | |
my first question is are, is what they telling me | 41:03 | |
motivated by the desire to discredit | 41:07 | |
our military and our government, | 41:10 | |
or is what they're saying really exactly what happened? | 41:12 | |
And I don't know that we can fully, fully | 41:15 | |
unless we have other witnesses to say | 41:18 | |
that they saw what happened to really truly know. | 41:20 | |
Interviewer 1 | Were you involved in Guantanamo | 41:23 |
with trying to assess whether the detainee | 41:25 | |
is telling the truth as you described? | 41:27 | |
- | No, I had nothing to do with that. | 41:30 |
Interviewer 1 | Did you ever talk to doctors | 41:33 |
or medical personnel while you were there? | 41:37 | |
- | I did talk to doctors and medical personnel, | 41:40 |
and they also had a specific section within the camp | 41:42 | |
for detainees who had suffered from mental illness, | 41:46 | |
if there was special needs because the mental illness, | 41:52 | |
the detainees actually stayed | 41:54 | |
in that particular part of the camp, | 41:56 | |
so they could be treated and so they could be observed | 41:58 | |
in terms of of dealing with that mental illness, | 42:00 | |
and I would make regular tours to there, | 42:03 | |
I would make regular tours to the medical facilities, | 42:05 | |
excuse me, where the detainees were treated. | 42:10 | |
The medical compound within the camp | 42:13 | |
had permanent residents, early on in the detention, | 42:17 | |
there was several detainees | 42:22 | |
that attempted to commit suicide and they were rescued, | 42:25 | |
however, the rescue of at least one individual | 42:28 | |
came after the point to where he had some brain damage | 42:32 | |
because of the attempt because of lack of oxygen, | 42:35 | |
and he basically was kept in the infirmary | 42:38 | |
where his needs could be cared for | 42:40 | |
because he couldn't take care of himself | 42:42 | |
as the other detainees could. | 42:45 | |
Interviewer 1 | What was your role in attending | 42:47 |
to the medical facilities, why would you go there? | 42:50 | |
- | I would go there because I was making my rounds | 42:54 |
through the camp visiting with the guards, | 42:58 | |
and so it was just a common practice | 43:02 | |
to check in with the medical personnel, | 43:04 | |
and to check in with the people in terms of psychiatry, | 43:07 | |
just to say, "How are you doing? | 43:11 | |
I'm the chaplain, do you have any needs, | 43:13 | |
how are the other service members doing? | 43:15 | |
Is there anybody that wouldn't come to the chaplain | 43:18 | |
but perhaps the chaplain needs to go to them?" | 43:21 | |
And so it was mainly making my rounds | 43:23 | |
of going door to door throughout the camp | 43:26 | |
to see if there's any need for my services, | 43:29 | |
and also to maintain a rapport so that they knew who I was, | 43:31 | |
so if they did have a need, they would know the chaplain, | 43:35 | |
and feel comfortable in coming to me and talking to me. | 43:37 | |
Interviewer 1 | And while you made your rounds | 43:40 |
you've never observed any abuse? | 43:41 | |
I just wanna confirm that. | 43:45 | |
- | No, the usual interaction that I would see | 43:46 |
would be the escorting of a detainee | 43:50 | |
to a medical appointment or perhaps | 43:53 | |
to the interrogation rooms, I suppose, | 43:56 | |
and when they are transporting them back and forth, | 43:58 | |
and it was always a situation where, | 44:01 | |
I never saw a detainee pushed or shoved, | 44:05 | |
or yelled at, or somehow treated in any way | 44:08 | |
that wasn't completely professional | 44:12 | |
in terms of showing respect for the detainee | 44:15 | |
and their rebelling. | 44:18 | |
Interviewer 1 | Do you know what earth is, | 44:20 |
when the emergency reaction force would attend | 44:23 | |
to a detainee who wasn't. | 44:27 | |
- | A forced cell extraction? | 44:29 |
Interviewer 1 | Yeah, well, did you observe any of those? | 44:31 |
- | I never observed any of them directly | 44:35 |
because basically I was not allowed | 44:37 | |
into the cell blocks themselves | 44:42 | |
when there was detainees in them, | 44:44 | |
now I saw them all around me, | 44:46 | |
and I saw them down in the open compounds, | 44:48 | |
but a forced extraction would normally take place | 44:51 | |
in that 10%, the people that weren't cooperative, | 44:55 | |
and so basically, it's not a good idea to have | 44:59 | |
the chaplain down there in a position | 45:01 | |
in which the chaplain could get hurt | 45:04 | |
because I would just get in people's way. | 45:05 | |
I did see video footage of that in terms of the training, | 45:08 | |
we had training at Fort Dix, and watched videotapes | 45:12 | |
in terms of, here's how you do this so nobody gets hurt. | 45:16 | |
So, everything was the emphasis on doing it in such a way, | 45:20 | |
"We don't wanna beat this person up, | 45:24 | |
we simply want them to do what we want them to do, | 45:26 | |
and here's the way we do it so that you don't get hurt, | 45:29 | |
and so that you don't get frustrated and wanna hurt them, | 45:31 | |
and so if you follow these rules, | 45:34 | |
and do it the way you're supposed to, | 45:36 | |
we'll simply be able to take them out | 45:38 | |
and get them to where they need to go | 45:40 | |
without bringing any harm to anybody." | 45:41 | |
Interviewer 1 | Do you recall what those rules were? | 45:43 |
- | It was specifically the training | 45:50 |
of how they position themselves, | 45:51 | |
what kind of gear they wore, | 45:55 | |
who said go, and then what you do when they say go, | 45:58 | |
those kinds of things, any more than that | 46:01 | |
and I'm not qualified to teach that kind of training, | 46:03 | |
let's just say it was procedures | 46:06 | |
that you did in order to accomplish the mission, | 46:09 | |
and I was more interested in checking out | 46:13 | |
the people and what their cares were, | 46:16 | |
as opposed to watching what was up behind the screen. | 46:18 | |
Interviewer 1 | You had mentioned suicides, | 46:22 |
as you know, I don't know if you were there at the time, | 46:26 | |
but there were as many as five suicides, | 46:28 | |
although some people consider | 46:31 | |
they might've been homicides at Guantanamo, | 46:32 | |
do you wanna speak to that at all? | 46:37 | |
- | I will speak to it only in that, | 46:39 |
there was a suggestion that somehow | 46:41 | |
if one of the detainees was attempting to commit suicide, | 46:43 | |
that somehow the rest of the detainees | 46:47 | |
would alert the guards, and they would come down there | 46:49 | |
and come to their aid, but in fact, | 46:51 | |
there was evidence that, in fact, | 46:53 | |
some of the detainees wished to commit suicide | 46:59 | |
in order as an act of martyrdom, | 47:02 | |
it wasn't that they were responding | 47:04 | |
out depression or discouragement, | 47:05 | |
I mean, I suppose that could be a factor, | 47:07 | |
and I won't speak a hundred percent in terms of that, | 47:09 | |
but there was an attitude that if we can commit suicide | 47:12 | |
in here, it'll be a star in our crown | 47:15 | |
in terms of showing what we're willing to do for our cause. | 47:19 | |
And so there was actually situations | 47:23 | |
in which the one detainees created | 47:25 | |
some sort of a lasso or a noose, | 47:29 | |
and put it around their neck, | 47:31 | |
and the detaining and the next cell pulled it tight, | 47:32 | |
in other words, was helping them to try | 47:35 | |
to commit the suicide. | 47:37 | |
And so, there was some of that evidence | 47:39 | |
in which the detainees around them | 47:42 | |
would in fact applaud them committing the suicide, | 47:44 | |
because then they could hold them up as a martyr | 47:47 | |
for the cause and something to emulate. | 47:49 | |
Interviewer 1 | How do you know that this was martyrdom, | 47:52 |
does that come from military? | 47:57 | |
- | Is it any difference than strapping C4 on your body | 48:01 |
with ball-bearings, and walking into a crowd | 48:05 | |
and blowing yourself up? | 48:07 | |
I mean, we've seen that that's part | 48:10 | |
of the arsenal of weapons that are used against us, | 48:12 | |
that's why they call it terrorism. | 48:17 | |
Perhaps I'm going a bit far on that, | 48:23 | |
and again, I'm not speaking a hundred percent on that, | 48:25 | |
there are certainly are other causes, | 48:28 | |
and it certainly was a discouraging and depressing thing | 48:29 | |
to find yourself in that small cell. | 48:32 | |
Interviewer 1 | So, they were rumors | 48:35 |
that maybe some of these men were inadvertently killed, | 48:37 | |
it was a homicide rather than a suicide, | 48:41 | |
you never heard anything about it? | 48:43 | |
- | That was long after I was gone, | 48:47 |
that didn't happen while I was there, | 48:49 | |
I guess the question I would have is, | 48:50 | |
what would be the motivational force to do that? | 48:53 | |
And knowing the training that the guards had | 48:56 | |
in terms of protecting the detainees, | 48:58 | |
unless there was a total breach | 49:00 | |
of the standard operating procedures | 49:02 | |
in which our rogue group went in there to decide | 49:04 | |
to do some evil acts ever against their orders, | 49:06 | |
I mean, anything's possible in this world, | 49:09 | |
but I think it would be highly unlikely, | 49:12 | |
what would the motivation before it? | 49:14 | |
Obviously the idea of it happening would create | 49:17 | |
a selling point for the terrorism | 49:22 | |
to recruit new members for their activities | 49:25 | |
by something like that happening, | 49:28 | |
the direct result of doing that would cause | 49:30 | |
the injury and death of our own people, | 49:33 | |
so it doesn't make any sense to me. | 49:36 | |
And again, I'm speaking about what I know, | 49:39 | |
anything's possible in this world. | 49:42 | |
Interviewer 1 | You were talking about the vetting process | 49:46 |
before we started camera, | 49:51 | |
do you wanna address that on camera? | 49:52 | |
You had some points about the vetting process. | 49:56 | |
- | Well, I spoke about that before in terms of, | 49:58 |
I mentioned that it was a process that they did, | 50:03 | |
how and why they made their decisions I don't know, | 50:05 | |
nor do I think that that would be something | 50:08 | |
that could be spoken up because I think | 50:11 | |
it's probably classified, the rule, the procedures, | 50:12 | |
I can't talk about the procedures, | 50:16 | |
or how was it determined those things. | 50:17 | |
So, let's just say that there was a constant concern | 50:20 | |
that we not have people there that shouldn't be there. | 50:25 | |
Obviously, our goal should not be | 50:29 | |
to literally kidnap people and hold them | 50:32 | |
away from their families, | 50:36 | |
if there isn't a really legitimate reason | 50:38 | |
for our national security reasons to do that. | 50:40 | |
So, there was a constant reassessing | 50:44 | |
of everybody there to determine | 50:48 | |
whether they were legitimate there or not. | 50:49 | |
One of the early vetting systems was, | 50:56 | |
when we first had a large group come in, | 50:58 | |
anybody that was a teenager was sent home, | 51:02 | |
it was just considered, if they're not an adult, | 51:05 | |
they don't need to be here, | 51:09 | |
we'll send them home and reunite with them their families, | 51:10 | |
so, that was one of the things | 51:15 | |
they took into consideration, the age. | 51:18 | |
Interviewer 1 | And there were a few juveniles | 51:21 |
who were there even when you were there | 51:23 | |
who were not sent home, | 51:25 | |
I mean, there were some young boys | 51:28 | |
who were picked up 14 and 15, one is still there today. | 51:29 | |
- | Well, that's a surprise to me because, | 51:34 |
that wasn't my understanding if that's the case, | 51:35 | |
that was unknown to me, | 51:38 | |
I'm simply reporting what was reported to me | 51:40 | |
as to what happened, so that's a surprise, | 51:43 | |
I'd be interested in knowing more about that. | 51:46 | |
Interviewer 1 | Can I just go back to being a chaplain? | 51:50 |
After James Yee, my understanding is then they brought in | 51:53 | |
chaplains who are not Muslim religion any longer, | 51:58 | |
did you have thoughts about that, | 52:04 | |
is that a good idea that the Muslim population | 52:05 | |
had no chaplain for their own needs? | 52:08 | |
- | But the Muslim people did have a chaplain, | 52:13 |
see the one issue there is that, | 52:19 | |
I don't know what the numbers were at that time, | 52:21 | |
but I'm thinking, it was less than 10 Muslim chaplains | 52:23 | |
in the armed forces, and very short supply, | 52:27 | |
we had a Muslim chaplain that basically | 52:31 | |
they wanted to want him to transfer to someplace else, | 52:34 | |
because they needed them someplace else, | 52:38 | |
and the camp basically says, "We can't let this person go, | 52:40 | |
what happens if there's some specific needs | 52:45 | |
that come up in terms of," or in other words, | 52:47 | |
"We won't let them be transferred over to your unit | 52:50 | |
unless we have a guarantee that we can get him back | 52:52 | |
if we need him, in case something specific | 52:55 | |
would come up with that." | 52:58 | |
And he was there, he wasn't the chaplain behind the wire, | 53:00 | |
but he was there working with the issues | 53:04 | |
that related to Islam | 53:06 | |
Interviewer 1 | For the soldiers or for detainees? | 53:09 |
- | Soldiers and detainees. | 53:12 |
Interviewer 1 | But he never met with detainees? | 53:14 |
- | Not that I know of. | 53:16 |
Interviewer 1 | And do you feel just as a chaplain | 53:19 |
that detainees were served | 53:22 | |
if they had chaplain who would meet with them? | 53:24 | |
- | Served in what way? | 53:28 |
Interviewer 1 | Well, I think you mentioned | 53:30 |
that you were very valuable as a counselor | 53:31 | |
for people who needed counseling and assistance, | 53:33 | |
but detainees had no one to talk to. | 53:36 | |
- | There were psychiatrists and psychologists | 53:40 |
that they could go and be counseled with, | 53:43 | |
in other words, when there was a request for a chaplain, | 53:46 | |
that was referred to the psychological department, | 53:50 | |
who then counsel them psychologist. | 53:54 | |
Interviewer 1 | I don't know if you have answer this, | 53:58 |
but do you feel as a chaplain that is an adequate substitute | 53:59 | |
that psychologists and psychiatrists | 54:03 | |
can counsel as well as the chaplain can? | 54:05 | |
- | It certainly restricts the ability | 54:10 |
in the areas in which you can help, | 54:15 | |
I mean, obviously even the fact that the person | 54:17 | |
is not from their own country or from their own faith group, | 54:21 | |
it makes them less open and likely | 54:25 | |
to be in conversation, | 54:26 | |
I guess we're making do with the best with what we had, | 54:30 | |
the issue we get into was, when Chaplain Yee was there | 54:34 | |
there was an ability to do that, | 54:38 | |
but when that was determined that that wasn't going | 54:40 | |
to be an option because of the difficulties that arose, | 54:43 | |
and the danger it posed to violence within the compound, | 54:49 | |
that's why I was sad that the situation wasn't allowed, | 54:54 | |
'cause again, I would have loved | 54:59 | |
to be able to serve in that capacity, | 55:00 | |
even though as a Christian chaplain, | 55:02 | |
I certainly wouldn't be as really accepted as a Muslim. | 55:05 | |
Interviewer 1 | Switching topics, did you ever see | 55:11 |
any of the men go on hunger strikes? | 55:12 | |
- | I heard about them, I heard about them. | 55:19 |
Interviewer 1 | Did you ever observe someone | 55:22 |
being forced fed when you walk through | 55:24 | |
the medical facilities? | 55:26 | |
- | No, no. | |
Interviewer 1 | Did you hear about force-feeding too? | 55:28 |
- | I don't recall, I don't believe I did, | 55:33 |
but it's been a number of years | 55:36 | |
and it's hard to retain everything. | 55:38 | |
Interviewer 1 | When they went on hunger strikes | 55:41 |
did you know why they were on hungry strikes? | 55:42 | |
- | To protest being there. | 55:45 |
I mean, why does anybody go | 55:49 | |
in a hunger strike who's in jail? | 55:52 | |
To protest whatever the circumstances are. | 55:54 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did you ever talk to lawyers | 56:11 |
while you were there? | 56:12 | |
- | Yeah, I talked to practically everybody that was there. | 56:17 |
Interviewer 1 | Were lawyers for detainees | 56:20 |
were they allowed to talk to you, | 56:21 | |
did you ever have a conversation with them? | 56:22 | |
- | Not specifically about the circumstances, | 56:25 |
I mean, I was given a tour of the area | 56:28 | |
where the court system was to be held, | 56:31 | |
that system of which never really, you know, | 56:36 | |
while they had intentions of having it work, | 56:39 | |
never quite got off the ground, | 56:41 | |
for whatever reasons, I don't know, that's not in my lane, | 56:44 | |
but while I had conversations with lawyers | 56:46 | |
it wasn't specifically about the detainees. | 56:50 | |
Interviewer 1 | You didn't observe | 56:55 |
a combatant status tribunal, right? | 56:56 | |
- | No, no, never did. | 56:59 |
Interviewer 1 | Do you know what kind of food | 57:06 |
the prisoners were given, | 57:07 | |
did you happen to notice what they were fed? | 57:10 | |
- | We observed the Islamic dietary requirements, | 57:13 |
I know that I often saw a fresh fruit, | 57:18 | |
and they attempted to feed them, | 57:21 | |
I think I saw pitas and things like that, | 57:27 | |
and then trying to accommodate them with foods | 57:29 | |
that would meet the requirements of Islam, | 57:32 | |
and also would feed their palette. | 57:36 | |
That was something that they worked very hard at | 57:40 | |
because obviously, you know, the one pleasure you might have | 57:43 | |
under the circumstances of incarceration, | 57:48 | |
is to have a decent meal, | 57:50 | |
a food that you enjoy that's tasteful, | 57:52 | |
the guards wore sanitary gloves, | 57:58 | |
and made sure that it was distributed in a proper way. | 58:02 | |
Interviewer 1 | I wanna go back to when you walked | 58:08 |
around the prison camp, and you said you went to the area | 58:10 | |
where men who had instability, mental instability perhaps, | 58:14 | |
did you observe people in isolation, were you able to? | 58:20 | |
- | That particular building actually had larger cells, | 58:28 |
they had more accommodations for the detainees, | 58:36 | |
it was more along the line of allowing | 58:40 | |
the medical personnel, the psychologist, a psychiatrist, | 58:44 | |
to be able to keep an eye on the individuals. | 58:49 | |
So, when you say isolation cells it was still, | 58:53 | |
you know, this cell ended the next cell began, | 58:56 | |
and there was no situation where they weren't able | 59:00 | |
to have a conversation with somebody else | 59:03 | |
who was there as detainee. | 59:06 | |
Interviewer 1 | So detainees could talk to each other | 59:08 |
even in the isolation cells? | 59:09 | |
- | The best I remember, yes. | 59:12 |
Interviewer 1 | Did you find psychologists sometimes | 59:15 |
coming to you with, you don't have to tell | 59:17 | |
disposed individuals, but with own issues | 59:18 | |
having to deal with this? | 59:21 | |
- | No, and probably because of the nature of the prevention. | 59:25 |
Interviewer 1 | They handled themselves? | 59:30 |
- | They handled it themselves, yes. | 59:31 |
Interviewer 1 | Did you ever think you needed counseling | 59:33 |
from observing all this? | 59:36 | |
- | I have my mentors that I talk with, | 59:41 |
I mean, obviously the issues that I ran into | 59:45 | |
is that the situation was very surreal, | 59:49 | |
I mean, I was totally out of my element too | 59:52 | |
from what I'm used to back home, | 59:54 | |
and I would constantly try as an advocate | 59:56 | |
of peace and justice, especially in those circumstances, | 59:59 | |
reassess who I was as a person, | 1:00:02 | |
and reassess you know, what is going on here, | 1:00:04 | |
is there something that I'm not seeing that I should, | 1:00:07 | |
is there something more to this than I need to know? | 1:00:12 | |
And I constantly re-evaluated those things, | 1:00:14 | |
and talked with my mentors, | 1:00:17 | |
I think that's a healthy thing to do. | 1:00:21 | |
Interviewer 1 | Were you mentors on the base | 1:00:23 |
or were they off the base? | 1:00:24 | |
- | I had friends in Combat Stress, and I had, you know, | 1:00:29 |
obviously the rest of the chaplaincy, | 1:00:35 | |
we had I think it was five chaplains that were there | 1:00:38 | |
that handled different jobs on the base. | 1:00:42 | |
Interviewer 1 | All behind the wire? | 1:00:44 |
- | No, just one behind the wire. | 1:00:46 |
But you had a chaplain at the medical clinic, | 1:00:48 | |
you had a chaplain that dealt with the infantry, | 1:00:50 | |
there were basically the folks | 1:00:53 | |
that marched around the perimeters, | 1:00:55 | |
you had a chaplain that was the head chaplain, | 1:00:57 | |
and another one that was Muslim chaplain, | 1:01:00 | |
so you had chaplains there in which you could... | 1:01:03 | |
and we would have regular meetings, | 1:01:07 | |
and there was opportunities to be, | 1:01:09 | |
also had a Catholic chaplain | 1:01:11 | |
to deal with Catholic issues. | 1:01:13 | |
Interviewer 1 | And when you met with the other chaplains | 1:01:15 |
you never heard from any of them | 1:01:17 | |
a possible abuse behind the wire, | 1:01:18 | |
they never heard of this? | 1:01:21 | |
- | Well, probably because I was the only one | 1:01:22 |
that was behind the wire, | 1:01:23 | |
so anything that they would come into | 1:01:26 | |
it obviously only stories they might've heard from somebody, | 1:01:28 | |
but that never came up as a topic. | 1:01:31 | |
And of course there was the issue of how do you decide | 1:01:34 | |
who the chaplain is that's gonna go behind the wire. | 1:01:40 | |
And so, I was interviewed for that job, | 1:01:43 | |
and asked specifically about whether I could deal | 1:01:46 | |
with the unique circumstances | 1:01:49 | |
and the issues that it would raise, | 1:01:51 | |
and I thought I was capable of doing that, | 1:01:54 | |
so, basically I would be the one | 1:01:57 | |
that they would all come at. | 1:02:00 | |
Interviewer 1 | Why did you think | 1:02:02 |
that you can handle that? | 1:02:03 | |
- | I suppose because I've been through a lot in my life, | 1:02:09 |
and I faced a lot of situations and issues, | 1:02:13 | |
and I just adapt and overcome, | 1:02:17 | |
I guess, because I think I can do anything. | 1:02:22 | |
Interviewer 1 | I wanna ask you something else about that, | 1:02:26 |
but before, do you ever hear the frequent flyer, | 1:02:28 | |
did you ever hear rumor about frequent flyer | 1:02:32 | |
as a source of abuse in Guantanamo | 1:02:34 | |
where men would be moved every two hours and sleep deprived? | 1:02:37 | |
- | Not specifically, but I do know of situations | 1:02:42 |
in our own penal system where they have | 1:02:45 | |
a similar thing to protect people from | 1:02:47 | |
that need to be rerouted to new places, | 1:02:50 | |
I mean, obviously sleep deprivation and all that stuff, | 1:02:55 | |
that's not within the scope of anything | 1:02:58 | |
that I have any knowledge of. | 1:02:59 | |
Interviewer 1 | And were you surprised | 1:03:01 |
that guards never told you of, I guess the question is, | 1:03:02 | |
do you think there probably was no abuse | 1:03:08 | |
while you were there because guards never told you, | 1:03:10 | |
or do you think guards were hesitant | 1:03:12 | |
to tell you what they observed? | 1:03:14 | |
- | Well, staying in my lane I'll say | 1:03:17 |
that I don't believe that anything like that happened | 1:03:20 | |
on the cell blocks with the guards. | 1:03:24 | |
Interviewer 1 | And you don't believe that because? | 1:03:28 |
- | Because of the training that everybody received, | 1:03:30 |
and because of the direct orders | 1:03:33 | |
that you're not to participate in such things, | 1:03:36 | |
you need to report it, | 1:03:37 | |
I mean, obviously that was training given to everybody, | 1:03:39 | |
and along the lines of being the chaplain | 1:03:43 | |
I would've thought that somebody would report it. | 1:03:46 | |
Now again, beyond that, who knows, that's not in my lane, | 1:03:48 | |
so I don't know what happened beyond that, | 1:03:53 | |
but the day-to-day activities, you know | 1:03:55 | |
I'll give you a for instance of something, | 1:03:58 | |
it was reported to me that there was a guard | 1:04:01 | |
who found a loose floor panel, | 1:04:04 | |
that if he stood on it and rock back and forth | 1:04:07 | |
he can make a loud squeaky noise, | 1:04:09 | |
and so he was making a loud squeaky noise | 1:04:11 | |
keeping the detainees awake, | 1:04:13 | |
well, when it was discovered that he was was doing that, | 1:04:16 | |
he was reprimanded by his superior, and he was counseled, | 1:04:18 | |
and no way, mean, or form would he ever do that, | 1:04:23 | |
you know, your job here is not to irritate or to provoke, | 1:04:28 | |
your job here is to simply guard and protect. | 1:04:31 | |
And I suppose that's where I'm coming from, | 1:04:35 | |
whatever went on beyond that | 1:04:37 | |
with other groups, I don't know. | 1:04:39 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did Guantanamo change your life? | 1:04:43 |
- | I think all significant life experiences | 1:04:46 |
change your life in some way. | 1:04:49 | |
Interviewer 1 | How did it change yours? | 1:04:50 |
- | I guess it opened me up more to the world, | 1:04:53 |
I'm from a rural area, and the military in itself is, | 1:05:01 | |
I've had the privilege of traveling | 1:05:08 | |
to about 18 different countries | 1:05:09 | |
and doing all sorts of different things, | 1:05:10 | |
and it introduced me to an element | 1:05:13 | |
that I'd never been exposed to before, | 1:05:18 | |
it gave me a hunger and interest to learn more. | 1:05:20 | |
Interviewer 1 | About? | 1:05:23 |
- | About people. | 1:05:23 |
I mean, obviously the big question is, | 1:05:25 | |
as an American citizen, living in a democracy | 1:05:28 | |
in which we have more freedoms and rights | 1:05:32 | |
than anybody else in the world, why would people hate us? | 1:05:34 | |
Why would they want to kill us? | 1:05:38 | |
Why would they wanna take planes | 1:05:39 | |
and fly them into our buildings | 1:05:41 | |
and kill men, women, and children? | 1:05:42 | |
Why would they wanna put on best and blow themselves up? | 1:05:44 | |
You know, I'd like to know that, | 1:05:47 | |
I like to know what motivates people to wanna do that, | 1:05:49 | |
and think they're doing something good in the process, | 1:05:52 | |
I mean, that's a big question, isn't it? | 1:05:55 | |
It's a question that maybe we fill in the answers to, | 1:05:58 | |
we can find ways in this world | 1:06:01 | |
to prevent those things from happening, | 1:06:03 | |
by getting to know other people, | 1:06:05 | |
and to know what motivates them. | 1:06:06 | |
Interviewer 1 | Do you have any thoughts, | 1:06:09 |
after having served in Guantanamo as to what that might be? | 1:06:11 | |
- | Simply the issue that, you know, | 1:06:19 |
get to know your neighbors, get to know people, | 1:06:22 | |
specifically go out your way | 1:06:25 | |
to learn about who the individuals are, | 1:06:26 | |
and to learn the good qualities they have, | 1:06:30 | |
rather than just seeing somebody different | 1:06:32 | |
and then being afraid of them, | 1:06:34 | |
or been paranoid about them being there, | 1:06:36 | |
becoming friends across their differences, | 1:06:39 | |
and to celebrate our differences | 1:06:42 | |
rather than using them as a way to divide us | 1:06:44 | |
and to categorize us and set us apart. | 1:06:46 | |
Interviewer 1 | Have you learned more about | 1:06:49 |
the Muslim religion since then or? | 1:06:51 | |
- | Well, I learned quite a bit while I was there. | 1:06:54 |
I think I credit that experience | 1:06:57 | |
with the fact that I've been very adamant | 1:07:01 | |
about establishing friendships with people of Islamic faith, | 1:07:02 | |
and there are Islamic leaders | 1:07:09 | |
that I'm in friendship with today | 1:07:10 | |
that I don't know whether I would have maintained | 1:07:12 | |
the one-time meeting with somebody, | 1:07:15 | |
into an ongoing personal friendship, | 1:07:17 | |
but because of my experience I've nurtured that | 1:07:21 | |
and I kept that alive, | 1:07:23 | |
and have participated in interfaith prayer groups | 1:07:25 | |
and things like that, in order to, again, | 1:07:28 | |
put the world face in what I'm doing, | 1:07:33 | |
and not just that one little corner they come from. | 1:07:35 | |
People can get so paranoid, people's imaginations | 1:07:38 | |
are usually the most dangerous thing that are around them, | 1:07:42 | |
and what they're imagining as opposed to what's reality, | 1:07:45 | |
if you get to know people, then you know the reality. | 1:07:48 | |
I want people that are different than me | 1:07:51 | |
to know that I care about them and their welfare, | 1:07:53 | |
and that I think they deserve the same rights | 1:07:56 | |
and privileges that I have, | 1:07:58 | |
the world would be a whole lot better place | 1:08:02 | |
if we all did that, don't you agree? | 1:08:04 | |
Interviewer 1 | So, what you observed, | 1:08:06 |
and I'm only talking about what you observed, | 1:08:08 | |
what you observed with the men in Guantanamo, | 1:08:09 | |
if American citizens were placed | 1:08:13 | |
in a similar prison in another country, | 1:08:14 | |
that would be okay to you | 1:08:17 | |
because the way you observed the treatment, | 1:08:19 | |
that treatment would be fair | 1:08:22 | |
in another country of Americans? | 1:08:24 | |
- | Let me reflect on that a bit, | 1:08:30 |
you know, I think it's a tragedy | 1:08:31 | |
that anything like that has to occur, | 1:08:35 | |
I've got people that I've known | 1:08:37 | |
who were held in terrible circumstances | 1:08:40 | |
as prisoners of war in Vietnam, | 1:08:43 | |
you know, they considered us their enemies, | 1:08:47 | |
they did whatever they thought they needed to | 1:08:50 | |
in order to hold us as prisoners, | 1:08:53 | |
I mean, I suppose that gives me some empathy | 1:08:56 | |
in terms of how the Muslim world possibly looks at us | 1:08:59 | |
in terms of what we're doing, | 1:09:03 | |
the issue is the motivation for why you're doing that, | 1:09:04 | |
I mean, obviously wouldn't it be wonderful | 1:09:08 | |
if we could just open up all the doors | 1:09:10 | |
and send everybody home? | 1:09:11 | |
But there's overriding principles and unknowns | 1:09:14 | |
that has to do with national security | 1:09:17 | |
and the safety of our people, that are being responded to. | 1:09:19 | |
I don't think that anybody under those circumstances | 1:09:23 | |
should have to be held in that kind of a setting, | 1:09:27 | |
but unfortunately it's deemed necessary | 1:09:31 | |
for our safety and for the defense of our nation. | 1:09:34 | |
Does that answer your question? | 1:09:40 | |
Interviewer 1 | Well, if you think that the men | 1:09:42 |
were treated humanely from your observation, | 1:09:44 | |
and Americans if they were treated the same way | 1:09:47 | |
you would be okay with that, | 1:09:51 | |
I think that would, if that's what you're saying. | 1:09:53 | |
- | From my little piece of the world | 1:09:56 |
in which I observed the things that took place | 1:09:57 | |
under those specific circumstances, the best was made of it, | 1:10:00 | |
and yes, I think that they were treated | 1:10:05 | |
in the best possible way they could | 1:10:09 | |
considering the circumstances. | 1:10:10 | |
Interviewer 1 | Were you ever told, or the guards | 1:10:12 |
you worked with ever told the detainees | 1:10:15 | |
were the worst of the worst, did that message come down? | 1:10:19 | |
Two guards told us they were told that every day | 1:10:24 | |
to be very careful, that these were the worst of the worst, | 1:10:27 | |
had you heard that? | 1:10:29 | |
- | Yeah, I suppose I have, I'm not quite sure | 1:10:32 |
what source I received that from, | 1:10:35 | |
but obviously there's a certain amount of scuttlebutt | 1:10:36 | |
that takes place in terms of the unit level, | 1:10:45 | |
or the differences between the officer enlisted, | 1:10:47 | |
and the enlist connection between the NCO, | 1:10:53 | |
the non-commissioned officers, | 1:10:56 | |
and the enlisted in terms of, | 1:10:57 | |
how do you motivate or how do you speak to people? | 1:10:59 | |
And I'm supposing that was part of that, yes. | 1:11:03 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did you guards ever say to you | 1:11:08 |
that they wanted, if in fact what they were told was true, | 1:11:10 | |
do they ever have doubts about what they're observing? | 1:11:13 | |
- | I guess, I mean, I have doubts every day | 1:11:23 |
about things that I'm doing, | 1:11:27 | |
I think it's a healthy thing not to question authority | 1:11:28 | |
but to observe and question what you're observing, | 1:11:33 | |
and to understand the situation that you're facing. | 1:11:36 | |
Supposing I had conversations about all kinds of people | 1:11:42 | |
really not fully comprehending what they're doing, | 1:11:46 | |
or they don't know if they're understanding it correctly, | 1:11:50 | |
so I suppose those issues came up. | 1:11:54 | |
Interviewer 1 | And the best you counsel them, | 1:11:58 |
you said to just accept because they didn't have | 1:11:59 | |
much choice, right? | 1:12:03 | |
- | Well, and you fall back understanding operating procedures | 1:12:05 |
that we're not here to do anything | 1:12:09 | |
but follow the orders that you're given, | 1:12:12 | |
and to respect the human rights. | 1:12:15 | |
Interviewer 1 | We spoke to a guard who converted | 1:12:18 |
to Muslim while he was at Guantanamo, did you hear that? | 1:12:21 | |
- | No, I have never. | 1:12:24 |
Interviewer 1 | Any thoughts on actually that happening, | 1:12:26 |
if that was a true story? | 1:12:27 | |
- | The Muslim chaplain that we had at the facility | 1:12:31 |
himself converted from Christianity to Islam, | 1:12:36 | |
people convert from Christianity to Islam, | 1:12:41 | |
people convert from Islam to Christianity, | 1:12:44 | |
that thing happens all the time. | 1:12:47 | |
Interviewer 1 | And we also spoke to a guard | 1:12:51 |
who now friends on Facebook | 1:12:53 | |
some of the detainee he was guarding, | 1:12:55 | |
any thoughts about that (indistinct)? | 1:12:58 | |
Could you see yourself doing that? | 1:13:03 | |
- | I wouldn't be, look me up, | 1:13:04 |
I'm open to that, I'm open to that. | 1:13:09 | |
I've spent a lot of my time getting involved in issues | 1:13:13 | |
which I feel in me disagree | 1:13:19 | |
with the people on the other side, | 1:13:21 | |
and I've found that in the process of dialoguing | 1:13:23 | |
about those differences, that I've grown and learned | 1:13:26 | |
a lot about myself, and even more about the other person, | 1:13:29 | |
so, I think it's good to understand. | 1:13:34 | |
Interviewer 1 | So, do you see your experience | 1:13:38 |
in working was a positive experience? | 1:13:39 | |
- | It was for me, yes, a positive experience. | 1:13:42 |
Interviewer 1 | And the way you expressed before | 1:13:46 |
in opening your eyes to a world | 1:13:48 | |
that maybe you didn't know as well? | 1:13:50 | |
- | Yes, you know, one of the things | 1:13:52 |
that I wanna constantly talk about | 1:13:57 | |
is the willingness to sacrifice | 1:14:00 | |
the very much the integrity and the professionalism | 1:14:04 | |
of our armed forces, obviously there's always individuals | 1:14:07 | |
here and there that don't abide by those things, | 1:14:11 | |
but the vast majority were very honorable people, | 1:14:14 | |
serving in a very honorable way, | 1:14:17 | |
who loved their country, | 1:14:19 | |
who were willing to die for their country, | 1:14:21 | |
and I think that in this whole process | 1:14:23 | |
of trying to decide who did what to, who, where, | 1:14:25 | |
that gets lost that the vast majority | 1:14:29 | |
are serving very honorably and in a very respectful, | 1:14:32 | |
and are growing in their own right to be good moral people. | 1:14:36 | |
Interviewer 1 | And so, and that became more reinforced, | 1:14:44 |
is that why you see it as positively? | 1:14:47 | |
- | Because there was people there from all over the place, | 1:14:51 |
there was a cross section of America serving there, | 1:14:55 | |
that opens me up to people from different places, | 1:14:59 | |
and different experiences, different influences. | 1:15:02 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did you ever interact | 1:15:06 |
with any prosecutors while you were there? | 1:15:08 | |
- | I think I did, (laughs) you know, | 1:15:14 |
many of the conversations I had | 1:15:17 | |
wasn't apparent exactly what the person's position was, | 1:15:19 | |
I mean, obviously in the officer's gatherings | 1:15:23 | |
and things like that, they were obviously there, | 1:15:26 | |
and I obviously, you know more likely talk to them, | 1:15:28 | |
but I never had a single conversation | 1:15:31 | |
with a prosecutor about their duties. | 1:15:35 | |
Interviewer 1 | Would you go back to Guantanamo | 1:15:40 |
if they asked you to return, | 1:15:41 | |
and again, which kind of work would you do in Guantanamo? | 1:15:43 | |
- | If I could lose 75 pounds, and be in better shape, | 1:15:47 |
and be healthier than I was, | 1:15:52 | |
I honestly miss serving in the military, I'm retired now, | 1:15:54 | |
if those circumstances were there | 1:16:00 | |
where I was able to do that. | 1:16:02 | |
And I think the reasoning behind that is, | 1:16:04 | |
I feel like I've made a positive impact on this world, | 1:16:08 | |
and I think that the issue has to be, | 1:16:12 | |
sometimes we have to stop and say, | 1:16:16 | |
you know, there is a prayer that says, | 1:16:18 | |
"Lord, help me to change the things I can, | 1:16:20 | |
the courage to change the thing, | 1:16:23 | |
or the wisdom to," wait a minute, | 1:16:24 | |
"help me to change the things I can, | 1:16:27 | |
the wisdom to," oh, wait a minute. | 1:16:29 | |
- | Accept the things I can, | 1:16:32 |
- | there you go, | |
- | and the wisdom | 1:16:34 |
- | there you go, | |
- | to know the difference. | 1:16:35 |
- | there you go. | |
St. Francis, I believe it was, wasn't it? | 1:16:37 | |
Interviewer 1 2 | St. Francis prayer. | 1:16:39 |
- | Help me to change the things I can, | 1:16:40 |
to accept the things I can't, | 1:16:42 | |
and the wisdom to know the difference. | 1:16:43 | |
And I think the thing that I find very positive, | 1:16:46 | |
is the idea that I can understand the military | 1:16:49 | |
and understand the actions, and still be able to find | 1:16:53 | |
ways in which I can improve things | 1:16:57 | |
a little bit in different areas, | 1:16:59 | |
maybe I can help here, maybe I can help there. | 1:17:01 | |
You know, our society that we have here today | 1:17:03 | |
was established over hundreds of years, | 1:17:05 | |
you know, not hundreds of hundreds of years, | 1:17:08 | |
but a couple hundred years, | 1:17:09 | |
and were constantly trying to improve things, | 1:17:11 | |
were are constantly trying to become | 1:17:14 | |
more proactive in terms of peace, and justice issues, | 1:17:16 | |
and human rights, things that weren't even considered | 1:17:19 | |
several hundred years ago. | 1:17:23 | |
In any way that I can help move that process along, | 1:17:25 | |
and little bits and pieces, a little of building blocks, | 1:17:29 | |
then I feel my life has been worthwhile | 1:17:32 | |
in terms of being able to say at the end of my life, | 1:17:34 | |
I made a difference in people's lives. | 1:17:37 | |
There was people that were able | 1:17:39 | |
to find healing through my ministry, | 1:17:41 | |
there was people were able to find new insights | 1:17:43 | |
and overcome bigotry and prejudice through my ministry, | 1:17:45 | |
and any time I had an opportunity to do that, | 1:17:48 | |
one by one, individual by individual, | 1:17:51 | |
or even in sermons that I preach, that's a good thing, | 1:17:53 | |
and it's a process in which I think | 1:17:58 | |
I can feel satisfaction and pride | 1:18:00 | |
in what I've accomplished with my ministry | 1:18:03 | |
in the years I've been on this earth. | 1:18:06 | |
Interviewer 1 | When you left Guantanamo, | 1:18:08 |
were you involved in choosing your successor? | 1:18:10 | |
- | No, basically when it's time to go, | 1:18:13 |
everything is dismissed in fact, | 1:18:18 | |
other than get home to your wife and kids. | 1:18:20 | |
Interviewer 1 | During your year there, | 1:18:24 |
were you able to leave Guantanamo | 1:18:26 | |
and go home to your wife and kids? | 1:18:27 | |
- | I actually got flew back home and performed a wedding | 1:18:29 |
for my sister, and was able to be home, | 1:18:34 | |
you know, I wasn't home at Christmas, | 1:18:36 | |
but I was able to be home to celebrate Christmas | 1:18:38 | |
and Thanksgiving sort of at the same time with my family. | 1:18:41 | |
Interviewer 1 | And was your wife, would she be permitted | 1:18:45 |
to fly down and spin Guantanamo while you were there? | 1:18:47 | |
- | No, it was an unaccompanied tour. | 1:18:51 |
Interviewer 1 | And the other chaplains | 1:18:54 |
who were there when you were there, | 1:18:57 | |
could one of them end up behind the wire | 1:18:59 | |
on the next tour, was that possible or? | 1:19:01 | |
- | Right, you had these different positions | 1:19:04 |
that needed to be filled, and I could have been moved | 1:19:07 | |
to another position if somehow it hadn't worked out, | 1:19:12 | |
or, you know, my circumstances had changed, | 1:19:14 | |
they could've moved me to another position | 1:19:18 | |
and put somebody else in that position, so. | 1:19:20 | |
Interviewer 1 | Looking back are you glad, | 1:19:22 |
might be the wrong word, | 1:19:26 | |
but are you glad that you ended up being | 1:19:27 | |
the one of the five assigned to be behind the wire? | 1:19:29 | |
- | It was certainly an opportunity that I appreciated, | 1:19:35 |
and it was certainly one in which | 1:19:40 | |
is an advocate for peace and justice | 1:19:42 | |
I was glad to do because of my, | 1:19:44 | |
you know, everybody looks through different glasses, | 1:19:47 | |
they look at things in particular ways, | 1:19:50 | |
I don't care if I get in trouble, | 1:19:54 | |
I never have, I've wholly simply done what's right, | 1:19:56 | |
and I thought, if anybody needs to be in here, | 1:20:00 | |
just like when I become an officer and said, | 1:20:03 | |
"Can I be a line officer in order off | 1:20:05 | |
to possibly get killed?" | 1:20:07 | |
Well, you need a person who respects human rights, | 1:20:08 | |
who respects the sanctity of life. | 1:20:12 | |
I says, "I'm the best person for the job, in my opinion, | 1:20:15 | |
to go in here and do this, because if there's any places | 1:20:18 | |
in which I could see that, I'm gonna look for it." | 1:20:21 | |
And I guess I'm kind of glad that I didn't see any of that, | 1:20:24 | |
I'm not saying it wasn't there, but I didn't see it. | 1:20:33 | |
Interviewer 1 | You had seen it, | 1:20:35 |
would you have been able to do something about it? | 1:20:36 | |
- | Yes. | 1:20:39 |
Interviewer 1 | What could you have done? | 1:20:40 |
- | Well, certainly I would had no problem | 1:20:44 |
with confronting the commander with it. | 1:20:45 | |
Interviewer 1 | That would be acceptable behavior if you- | 1:20:49 |
- | I don't know if the commander would consider | 1:20:53 |
that acceptable or not, it would have been | 1:20:55 | |
what I would have had done according to conscience. | 1:20:57 | |
I've never acted out of the motivation | 1:21:02 | |
about how can I get promoted, | 1:21:03 | |
or how can I gain something from this, | 1:21:05 | |
it's always been an attitude of service to humanity, | 1:21:07 | |
I would feel like if I hadn't done that, | 1:21:11 | |
that I somehow would have failed | 1:21:14 | |
as a member of the clergy, as a member of somebody | 1:21:17 | |
who is trying to help people | 1:21:20 | |
find the highest possible spiritual level of integrity, | 1:21:23 | |
and honesty, and compassion that they can be. | 1:21:27 | |
And again, I've had situations in my military career too | 1:21:34 | |
where they haven't been happy with me, | 1:21:37 | |
and they told me to shut up and be quiet, | 1:21:41 | |
and I haven't shut up and be quiet. | 1:21:43 | |
And for the grace of God, I managed to make it | 1:21:45 | |
through 27 years without being pitched out, | 1:21:48 | |
even though there were some folks | 1:21:50 | |
that would like to throw me out. | 1:21:51 | |
So, to me it's a badge of honor that I can maintain | 1:21:53 | |
that kind of integrity in those circumstances | 1:22:00 | |
in which others might've simply went along with the system, | 1:22:02 | |
I've never been one to go along with the system | 1:22:06 | |
if the system wasn't just. | 1:22:09 | |
Interviewer 1 | So you would have stood up | 1:22:14 |
is what I'm hearing? | 1:22:15 | |
- | Yes. | 1:22:16 |
Interviewer 1 | Did you ever see any ICRC, | 1:22:19 |
you know, Red Cross people? | 1:22:22 | |
- | They had their office very close by, | 1:22:24 |
I did visit them, I did talk with the representatives. | 1:22:28 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did they ever tell you | 1:22:32 |
about abuse that they had heard? | 1:22:32 | |
- | We never really had an, you know, | 1:22:35 |
obviously there's lots of people there, | 1:22:37 | |
there was really never opportunity | 1:22:39 | |
for those conversations because, they didn't eat with us, | 1:22:40 | |
they didn't socialize with us, | 1:22:45 | |
many times they were coming in | 1:22:47 | |
and doing their work and leaving, | 1:22:48 | |
so other than the fact that I did go | 1:22:51 | |
to the Red Cross office and I did talk with them | 1:22:53 | |
and introduced myself, | 1:22:57 | |
I really didn't have any conversations with them | 1:22:59 | |
beyond that, they never came to me for any kind of counsel, | 1:23:01 | |
which is probably understandable, | 1:23:05 | |
simply they didn't have that much access to me. | 1:23:06 | |
Interviewer 1 | And they never revealed, | 1:23:09 |
they just wouldn't reveal, | 1:23:10 | |
I guess they were under orders not to reveal anything. | 1:23:11 | |
- | They're not under orders to do anything, | 1:23:14 |
they're the American Red Cross they're not our military, | 1:23:16 | |
their job isn't to obey our orders, | 1:23:20 | |
their job is to do what they're supposed to do. | 1:23:22 | |
I do know that the detainees had access to the Red Cross, | 1:23:25 | |
the detainees were able to write letters home | 1:23:29 | |
and receive letters, you know, I do know those things, | 1:23:31 | |
at least the vast majority or as far as I knew, | 1:23:35 | |
if there was exceptions to that, I don't know. | 1:23:39 | |
Interviewer 1 | You had said you want to cover | 1:23:47 |
a few issues before we started, | 1:23:50 | |
do you feel you've covered issues, | 1:23:52 | |
is there anything that we haven't asked you yet? | 1:23:55 | |
- | I think we've gone on a lot of roads | 1:23:57 |
Interviewer 1 | Before we close (indistinct). | 1:24:00 |
Interviewer 1 2 | I did have a question | 1:24:02 |
about the relationship of the chaplain to the guards, | 1:24:03 | |
if a guard came to you and it was totally anonymous, | 1:24:07 | |
you didn't have to report any issues | 1:24:12 | |
that they might've said to you in private | 1:24:15 | |
to anybody, correct or is that not correct? | 1:24:18 | |
- | The chaplain's relationship | 1:24:23 |
with the soldiers or service members, | 1:24:25 | |
is one of privileged communication, | 1:24:29 | |
unless, let's say if a service member came in | 1:24:35 | |
and said to me, "I'm gonna kill somebody," | 1:24:40 | |
I have to report that, or if a guard came in and said, | 1:24:44 | |
"I'm gonna take my own life," I'd have to report that, | 1:24:47 | |
because it's a safety issue of so many | 1:24:51 | |
outside of them being injured, or it's protect their life, | 1:24:53 | |
otherwise, there's privileged communications | 1:24:58 | |
in which I would not divulge who it was that came to me | 1:25:00 | |
unless they said it was okay for me to do that, | 1:25:05 | |
however, if they reported incidents | 1:25:08 | |
of violations of human rights or abuse, | 1:25:10 | |
I personally would take it upon myself | 1:25:14 | |
to not keep that under wraps. | 1:25:18 | |
Interviewer 1 2 | And separate | 1:25:21 |
from the human rights issue, | 1:25:22 | |
if there was a guard that was very troubled | 1:25:23 | |
in any way, shape, or form, | 1:25:27 | |
and he comes to you and you feel | 1:25:31 | |
that this guy's on the edge, | 1:25:33 | |
is there a protocol, do you send them to the psychologist, | 1:25:36 | |
do you have any capacity to make a recommendation | 1:25:41 | |
to somebody that this guy needs to get out of here? | 1:25:45 | |
- | First of all I would highly recommend | 1:25:50 |
they go see Combat Stress, because basically | 1:25:52 | |
that's their job of handling it, | 1:25:55 | |
I would say, "Have you been to Combat Stress?" | 1:25:56 | |
And if he or she says to me, "No I haven't," | 1:25:58 | |
"I think a good idea that you go to Combat Stress," | 1:26:02 | |
and I would then ask them the question, | 1:26:05 | |
"Do you think you can function professionally | 1:26:07 | |
in your capacity without having it be a problem? | 1:26:09 | |
Are you able to cope with or deal | 1:26:13 | |
with the issues that you're facing, | 1:26:15 | |
or do you need to get out of that situation | 1:26:17 | |
and have somebody else take your job for a while, | 1:26:19 | |
so that there isn't a possibility of something going bad?" | 1:26:22 | |
And obviously the people that do | 1:26:26 | |
the assigning of those jobs, | 1:26:31 | |
take very seriously the recommendations of the chaplain, | 1:26:33 | |
at least most of the people that I've dealt with, | 1:26:36 | |
if I were to say to them, here's a good service, | 1:26:39 | |
here's a good soldier, or good sailor, | 1:26:42 | |
or whatever they were, I says, | 1:26:43 | |
but they're going through some things right now | 1:26:45 | |
that it's probably best that they not be inside this camp, | 1:26:46 | |
and that you give them another job for awhile | 1:26:49 | |
till they can deal with their problems, | 1:26:52 | |
and then putting them back in that position, | 1:26:54 | |
they are glad to hear those things, | 1:26:56 | |
because they don't want somebody going | 1:26:58 | |
in there who's distracted. | 1:27:00 | |
Maybe it's also issues of back home, | 1:27:02 | |
if you're worried about your wife | 1:27:04 | |
who's back home with a sick baby, | 1:27:06 | |
you know, you're not thinking right, | 1:27:08 | |
and you're not paying attention, | 1:27:10 | |
and it's being distracted by those personal problems | 1:27:11 | |
back home, which opens up the possibility | 1:27:14 | |
of something bad to happen | 1:27:16 | |
because your mind isn't in your work, | 1:27:17 | |
so, realistically you would give them a recommendation | 1:27:20 | |
that they go do something else, it all pays the same. | 1:27:24 | |
Interviewer 1 2 | So you would make a recommendation | 1:27:29 |
to his or her offices? | 1:27:30 | |
- | Right. | 1:27:36 |
I also dealt with issues where there was individuals | 1:27:37 | |
that wanted a humanitarian discharges | 1:27:40 | |
because of major issues they were dealing with, | 1:27:42 | |
whether it was psychological | 1:27:45 | |
or whether it was family issues, | 1:27:47 | |
and then I would also help people in that process, | 1:27:49 | |
people with crisis of conscience, so to speak | 1:27:51 | |
in terms of, I just don't know that... | 1:27:54 | |
It's kind of interesting you have people | 1:27:57 | |
that'll serve in the military for 10 years | 1:27:58 | |
and suddenly they're conscious is objecting, | 1:28:01 | |
well, there's a process in which you deal with that | 1:28:04 | |
which the chaplain plays a key role. | 1:28:07 | |
Interviewer 1 | Did you get any people like that? | 1:28:11 |
- | I had one individual that I was trying to help | 1:28:13 |
get a discharge, but it was more about | 1:28:16 | |
family issues back home, in which the circumstances | 1:28:19 | |
that their family was facing was so severe, | 1:28:22 | |
that they really needed to be back home with their family | 1:28:25 | |
helping them take care of, I don't remember all the issues, | 1:28:27 | |
but there was some significant trauma in that family | 1:28:30 | |
in which the person was better off at home | 1:28:33 | |
rather than serving in Cuba. | 1:28:36 | |
(coughs) | 1:28:39 | |
Interviewer 1 | So, is there anything else | 1:28:42 |
that you'd like to talk about Guantanamo, | 1:28:44 | |
or about the future of America, | 1:28:45 | |
or yourself before we close? | 1:28:48 | |
- | I think I've said plenty. | 1:28:53 |
Interviewer 1 | Yeah, it was wonderful, | 1:28:55 |
it was really excellent, really appreciate it. | 1:28:56 | |
Before we close, Johnny wants to do | 1:29:00 | |
about 20 seconds of just room tone if that's okay, | 1:29:03 | |
if we just sit here quietly for 20 seconds | 1:29:06 | |
Johnny | Begin room tone. | 1:29:11 |
And we're done. | 1:29:29 |
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