Rawi, Bisher al - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Good afternoon.

0:05

We are very grateful to you for participating

0:08

in the Witness Guantanamo Project.

0:10

We invite you to speak of your experiences

0:13

in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:15

We are hoping to provide you with the opportunity

0:18

to tell your story in your own words.

0:20

We are creating an archive of stories

0:23

so that people in America and around the world

0:26

will have a better understanding

0:28

of what you and others have endured.

0:30

Future generations must know what happened,

0:33

and by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:36

We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us.

0:39

If any time during the interview,

0:43

you like to take a break, just let us know.

0:44

And if there's anything that you did not mean to say

0:46

and you want us to remove it, we can remove it as well.

0:49

Just let us know.

0:52

-

Thank you.

Interviewer

Thank you.

0:53

I'd like to begin with general information,

0:54

beginning with your name and your country of origin

0:57

and your hometown and your birth date. Maybe...

1:00

-

Okay, my name Bisher Al Rawi.

1:04

I'm an Iraqi citizen.

1:08

I've lived in the United Kingdom from 1984

1:09

after leaving Iraq.

1:13

My date of birth is 23rd of December, 1967.

1:16

Interviewer

And that makes you how old today?

1:19

-

I don't know, but very old.

1:21

(laughing)

Interviewer

And what languages do you speak?

1:26

-

I speak Arabic and English.

1:28

Interviewer

And your religion?

1:30

-

I'm a Muslim.

1:31

Interviewer

And are you married?

1:32

-

Now, I am married.

1:35

I got married after being released from Guantanamo.

1:36

Interviewer

Do you have children?

1:39

-

I have two boys. One, two and a half and one, six months.

1:40

Interviewer

Congratulations.

1:44

-

Thank you.

1:45

Interviewer

When did you...

1:49

And you currently live in London?

1:51

-

Yes, I live in London.

1:53

Interviewer

Do you remember the day

1:56

that you arrived in Guantanamo

1:57

and the day you left Guantanamo?

1:58

-

(sighs) The day I arrived, actually, I don't remember,

2:00

but it was in February, sometime...

2:03

Interviewer

In 2000?

2:06

-

In February, 2003. Okay.

2:08

The day I think I left Guantanamo,

2:12

I think that I remember reasonably well.

2:14

It was a very distinct day

2:16

and that was I think the 30th of March,

2:18

2007.

2:24

Interviewer

Okay.

2:25

We'll go into why it's so distinct.

2:26

-

Yeah, it is a very special day.

2:28

Interviewer

Okay.

2:31

I like to begin by asking you,

2:32

if you could describe how it was

2:34

when you were first arrested.

2:36

What happened that day and then take us

2:38

from then on up to the day you came to Guantanamo,

2:41

but then we'll start it new.

2:44

-

Okay. Basically myself

2:46

and two friends, we were traveling

2:49

from the United Kingdom to go to Gambia in Africa

2:52

to assist my brother in setting up a small business venture

2:57

which is he was embarking on

3:02

and that's peanut processing factory in Gambia.

3:04

We got on the flight, we got to Gambia

3:15

and we were arrested there.

3:18

I'm trying to be reasonably brief

3:21

because if we want to go to through every detail

3:23

that will take a long time more than--

3:26

Interviewer

I would like more details

3:27

as to why you were arrested.

3:29

-

I mean, things started in the UK here.

3:30

First of all, as I said, we were embarking

3:33

on our trip first time around.

3:35

And we were arrested in the UK

3:38

under the false pretense

3:40

that I had a suspicious device in my bag,

3:41

which was a battery charger. That's a long story,

3:44

but I basically had a modified battery charger,

3:47

but it was a battery charger,

3:49

but anyway they arrested us and then we were released.

3:50

And we re booked the flight to go to Gambia again,

3:53

on the business venture, to join my brother.

3:58

And this time around, we were not arrested in the UK.

4:01

When we got to Gambia,

4:04

we were sort of I don't wanna say arrested,

4:06

we were sort of kidnapped.

4:09

I think that's a more accurate word

4:10

because everything was done in

4:15

a non-formal manner.

4:19

It's not like a formal arrest.

4:21

It's not like a...

4:23

Yeah. It was all done underneath the table,

4:24

like moving us through the night,

4:28

not giving us access to lawyers

4:33

or not telling us our rights.

4:35

Everything was done in a very peculiar manner.

4:39

And I think

4:42

the last bit of things, for example,

4:47

we were in Gambia and we were handed over to US

4:48

officials, to probably CIA personnel

4:54

or something of that sort.

4:58

But that transfer of custody

5:00

of us from Gambian custody to US custody

5:04

did not take place in a formal manner

5:08

with, for example, having the courts being involved

5:12

and just the normal legal formalities.

5:15

It was done and Americans paid money

5:20

and then we were given to (laughs) we were handed over.

5:22

So that sort of dealings.

5:25

It's not like proper way of doing things.

5:27

Interviewer

Could you describe exactly how that was?

5:31

So the Gambians were the ones

5:34

who first kidnapped you--

5:35

-

Yeah.

Interviewer

And then can you describe

5:38

how they would transfer--

5:39

-

Yeah. So basically we arrived in Gambia

5:40

in the airport and from there on,

5:46

we were told that there are formalities

5:51

like they took to the Gambian Intelligence Agency

5:55

and they kept telling us, "There's no problem.

5:58

"These are just formalities. We have to do this."

6:01

That sort of talk.

6:05

And then the next day,

6:07

for some of us the same day,

6:09

for some of us next day,

6:11

we were met by individuals

6:13

claiming they're from the CIA.

6:16

And they were starting asking us questions

6:19

and various questions and things along these lines.

6:21

And we stayed in Gambia for about one month

6:25

and that's when we were then handed over

6:28

to Americans who flew us out

6:33

in a very sort of peculiar manner out of Gambia.

6:36

And the flight has been sort of...

6:39

Details of the flight side,

6:42

Some people who

6:43

plane spotters,

6:47

they sort of seem to have logs of these flights.

6:48

Interviewer

I'd like to know about that flight,

6:51

but during the month that

6:52

before you were transferred to the Americans,

6:54

the Gambians had control of you?

6:57

-

Gambian, let's say it was Gambians had control of us,

6:59

but they were basically doing

7:02

whatever the Americans are telling them to do.

7:04

So take us here, put us here, remove us, whatever.

7:06

So Americans were sort of--

7:09

Interviewer

How do you know

7:10

the Americans were in control?

7:11

-

'Cause they were there all the time

7:13

and they were telling,

7:14

you kind of hear them telling the Gambians what to do,

7:15

like "Do this. Do that. Do this. Do that."

7:17

Interviewer

In English?

7:19

-

In English, yeah.

7:20

Interviewer

The CIA agents told you they were CIA?

7:23

-

That's what they said. Yes.

7:26

Again, I mean, it wasn't a situation

7:29

where you can't sort of verify that in any way.

7:30

Interviewer

What kind of questions

7:33

did they ask you during?

7:34

-

I think for me personally, it was mainly to do

7:36

with my life in the United Kingdom.

7:40

People I knew,

7:44

things that have happened in the United Kingdom.

7:46

They were asking me things

7:49

around these events and these individuals.

7:50

Interviewer

And when they finally transferred you

7:55

officially, to the Americans, could you describe the flight

7:56

and where you went and what happened?

8:00

-

Well, it wasn't very pleasant.

8:03

I mean, being with the Gambians wasn't very pleasant.

8:05

Being handed over to US custody was less pleasant.

8:09

It was very...

8:14

difficult experience, let's say.

8:21

Interviewer

Do you mind telling us?

8:22

-

The last day in Gambia,

8:27

we were sort of myself and a friend of mine,

8:30

his name is Jamil.

8:34

We were each put in a car

8:36

with eyes like bound with a hood, cuffs and shackles.

8:41

And we were driven to the airport.

8:48

Of course I could not see anything,

8:49

but I could hear the jet planes.

8:50

You can hear the jet engines,

8:53

once we were at the airport.

8:55

We were seated for a while, a long while.

8:59

And during that time one could hear heavy,

9:03

like footsteps, people walking,

9:07

and like walking past.

9:09

I thought that was the Americans

9:17

getting themselves ready to sort of take us.

9:19

And I deduced that from the events that took place later.

9:21

I don't know, about sort of within an hour or so,

9:25

we were stood up.

9:29

Myself, when I say we, I mean myself and Jamil,

9:32

but we were each sort of,

9:35

not simultaneously, each on his own.

9:39

But again, when I say we, I mean me and Jamil,

9:43

not like myself alone.

9:45

So myself, I was stood up. I had two Gambians,

9:49

one on my left one on my right,

9:52

again, still blindfolded, cuffed and shackled.

9:54

And we walked few steps then we stopped.

9:58

They were behaving ordinarily

10:02

and then all of a sudden they released me

10:05

and, I presume, two people just held me very firmly

10:09

and started dragging me along

10:12

which I thought there was no call for that.

10:15

There wasn't anything happening really.

10:18

Anyway, they dragged me into a room, it was a dark room.

10:20

I presume all of this was at night

10:23

because again, one couldn't really judge

10:24

day and night, very well,

10:27

but it was at nighttime, the room was completely dark.

10:28

And again, I see some pathetic things happening

10:33

like the Americans with torches shining it in your face.

10:36

It's like stupid games.

10:40

Anyway, so they stripped me off

10:42

and they sort of forced into clothes,

10:47

not like I was still held, somebody holding my neck

10:51

and all the sort of things which probably people

10:54

have heard of by now.

10:59

So after putting on the clothes

11:02

again, I was restrained in a harness type device,

11:04

again with the cuffs and shackles

11:11

and everything else, you can imagine.

11:13

Again, I was dragged, literally dragged

11:15

to the aircraft and up the stairs

11:19

then put on a stretcher like bed.

11:21

I don't like stretcher bed,

11:24

it's like ambulance type things so it's not very wide.

11:26

It's not just wide enough.

11:29

I was put on my back like this

11:31

and then I was restrained in this position

11:34

throughout the flight.

11:36

I could not use a toilet.

11:37

That's for, again, everything goes for me and for Jamil.

11:39

No food, no drink, no toilet, no nothing

11:43

and I can't even move.

11:47

You're just sitting,

11:49

lying on your back, you can't move.

11:52

You can't just...

11:53

Sometimes you just need to move little bit.

11:54

You just can't do that.

11:56

And I was in tremendous pain,

11:58

but I just kept quiet.

12:00

And I was just waiting.

12:02

And then the flight landed,

12:06

I said to myself, "Gosh, this is relief."

12:07

That was half way

12:13

and I think the aircraft refueled then we took off

12:14

and flew and they took us from Gambia to Afghanistan,

12:18

which was very astonishing

12:21

that (laughing) why would they go to Afghanistan?

12:23

But anyway, that's how they run it.

12:27

They took us to Afghanistan

12:28

to what is called the Dark Prison in Kabul

12:30

which is an underground, Dark Prison.

12:33

I mean, the aircraft, the treatment was very bad.

12:38

I asked to go to the toilet several times,

12:40

but nobody even answered me.

12:42

I was just completely ignored.

12:45

Then in the Dark Prison,

12:50

it was at the time when me and Jamil, we went to,

12:51

it was actually pitch dark, no lights at all.

12:55

But the only time you see a little bit of light

12:58

is one of the guards would come to check on you

13:01

that you are dead or alive.

13:04

And he would open the bean hole

13:05

and look at you, shine the torch and look at you.

13:07

And if you don't move, he'll sort of make some noise,

13:11

nobody talks there.

13:14

Generally they just sort of make noise

13:16

and they expect you to react to the noise.

13:18

So he'll just tap and when you move,

13:21

then he's satisfied that you are not dead

13:23

and he will close the bean hole and move to the next guy.

13:25

And you'll hear the bean holes,

13:27

one closing, one after the other.

13:29

We stayed there for two, three weeks.

13:31

I don't know exactly because it was pitch dark.

13:33

We could not tell day from night.

13:36

We don't know what day it is or anything really.

13:39

We were fed, I think very little meal,

13:44

a meal every two days or there about,

13:47

maybe sometimes less, sometimes more.

13:50

We had very little bit of water,

13:52

very like, I think, a bottle of water.

13:55

And we had a bucket for a toilet

14:00

and we had to do that,

14:02

anything and we had to do in pitch darkness.

14:03

You can't see, if you wanna go to the toilet, you can't see.

14:05

You could sort of make a mess

14:08

and you don't know how to deal with it.

14:09

And there were rodents.

14:11

It was a dirty place,

14:13

not very pleasant at all. (sighs)

14:15

Interviewer

Did you and Jamil share a room

14:20

or were you in separate?

14:24

-

No, I think it's all isolation.

14:25

Generally speaking, all the facilities

14:27

almost all the facilities we were taken to

14:30

were isolation facilities.

14:33

Interviewer

And do you know why you were brought there?

14:35

Did they say anything to you?

14:37

-

To be honest with you, it's funny.

14:38

I mean today, myself and Jamil

14:40

and many other people that we are released

14:42

we are back to our sort of as normal life as we can.

14:45

And a lot has happened,

14:50

but really nobody has sort of real, like I said,

14:52

"Bisher or Jamil, you have done this,

14:56

"or you have done that."

14:58

Really, to my knowledge, nobody has

14:59

accused me of anything specific and direct

15:05

in terms of a crime.

15:08

Nobody has done that and I don't think nobody will.

15:10

Interviewer

Did they say anything to you

15:14

back then as to why they were holding you?

15:15

-

I think as I said...

15:18

I mean, again, it's one of these sort of complicated stories

15:19

because I mean, it's now, probably I haven't mentioned,

15:24

but there was a British involvement in all of this.

15:26

And that is the British told the Americans

15:30

that these two guys were interested in them.

15:32

Again, it is a lengthy sort of story,

15:35

but there were sort of telegrams that were sent

15:40

between the British Intelligence Agencies

15:42

or British police and the Americans.

15:44

They sort of thought that there's a common interest

15:51

and picking us up and interrogating us and doing whatever.

15:54

Interviewer

And when the Americans took you to,

15:59

was it Bagram where they--

16:01

-

Initially, no. Kabul.

16:02

The (mumbles) was in Kabul

16:04

after spending about three weeks,

16:06

or there about, a bit more or a bit less.

16:09

We were flown with other prisoners

16:12

to Bagram Airbase, the facilities there.

16:14

There it's sort of more like,

16:18

in comparison to the Dark Prison, is a bit more normal.

16:20

You can see people, although you can't talk,

16:24

you're not allowed to talk,

16:27

but you can see people.

16:28

There's some liveliness to the place

16:29

unlike the Dark Prison

16:32

where we really feel everybody's dead.

16:33

Interviewer

When they took you to the Dark Prison

16:35

did they tell you where you were going?

16:37

-

No, nobody told us. Nobody spoke with us.

16:39

Nobody told us anything.

16:41

Just basically, dragged from one place to another

16:44

and they just put you somewhere.

16:47

Again, no accusations, no explanation, no telling you why

16:49

or where you're going or what's happening. None of that.

16:53

Interviewer

And did you try to ask anybody?

16:57

-

The way I saw the situation

17:02

is that there's no need to ask

17:04

because anything you would ask people will lie to you.

17:05

So I thought I'll sort of keep my self-respect and not ask

17:07

because I don't wanna be lied to.

17:11

Interviewer

And what were you thinking

17:13

during all this time, especially in isolation?

17:14

-

To be honest with you,

17:16

I think one felt it was the end of one's life.

17:17

I thought that was the end of me, really,

17:23

in very sort of simple terms

17:25

without making it too complicated,

17:27

but I thought, "This is where I'm gonna end

17:29

"and this is where I'm gonna die in."

17:32

Death, I think, faced us

17:36

many times throughout this experience.

17:41

And you think, "Yeah, this time they're gonna kill me.

17:43

"This time they're gonna kill me.

17:45

"This time, they're gonna kill me."

17:46

That's the feeling

17:47

and the circumstances seem to indicate towards that.

17:50

Interviewer

And was there any violence committed on you

17:57

in that Dark Prison or you were just...

18:01

-

No, we were beaten up.

18:03

Sounds very funny, but it's...

18:06

I think leaving the Dark Prison,

18:09

we were beaten up, myself and Jamil.

18:13

I mean, Jamil was beaten up in Gambia as well,

18:18

but I think myself, I was just treated roughly

18:21

not like beaten up.

18:26

But in the Dark Prison,

18:29

I think there I got a very good beating.

18:32

So much so that when they took me to the Bagram,

18:35

the American soldiers there, they took pity on me.

18:39

(laughs) They saw me funny

18:41

and actually they took photos of what happened to me,

18:42

they documented that.

18:46

Interviewer

Could you describe how the beating happened?

18:49

-

To be honest with you, no,

18:51

because I was blindfolded,

18:52

(laughs) I didn't quite see,

18:54

but I was punched and hit in the face

18:56

and body and that sort of thing,

18:58

but actually, I didn't see anything but...

19:00

Interviewer

They just came

19:02

into your cell one day and just...

19:03

-

No, they took us out and it happened outside the cell.

19:04

It happened outside of the cell. Yeah.

19:08

Interviewer

Could you tell

19:10

how many people were there besides you and Jamil?

19:11

-

Several, probably six, seven, eight prisoners altogether.

19:15

I think six, seven, eight.

19:20

Five, six, seven, eight, that sort of thing.

19:22

Interviewer

And did you hear anybody

19:24

being beaten or screaming?

19:27

Did you hear other things going on while you were there?

19:29

-

Yeah. I mean, all the time, you hear people screaming,

19:31

crying and that sort of thing.

19:35

You hear that all the time,

19:36

but again, there was this what's called music.

19:37

Like all sounds, there was a continuous,

19:41

in the Dark Prison generally,

19:43

there was this continuous sound,

19:45

like a recording on a tape

19:47

that keeps going around and around.

19:49

It's keep playing again and again.

19:50

And so there was a big, a loud background noise

19:54

and with that, you hear people,

20:00

one would hear people screaming or crying

20:03

and things happening,

20:07

not very pleasant.

20:10

Interviewer

Did they ever talk to you

20:11

about your family while you were there?

20:12

-

In the Dark Prison nobody spoke with me at all.

20:14

Nobody told me a single word.

20:17

Okay. Very simple, nothing.

20:19

Interviewer

Was it run by Americans?

20:22

-

The day-to-day running, excuse me,

20:25

like bringing in the food

20:28

and taking out the the toilet bucket

20:29

that's from about, I presume, Afghanis,

20:34

they looked Afghanis.

20:37

When I say they looked,

20:38

when the guy would open the door to do things,

20:39

give you food or take the bucket out, whatever,

20:43

he was carrying a torch.

20:45

So you have a little bit of indication

20:46

to what's going on around you.

20:49

Is a time where you could look at the cell,

20:51

just try to comprehend the situation you're in.

20:54

So it was a few seconds then 20 seconds

20:57

and you could see a few things.

21:00

So the person bringing in the food,

21:01

he seemed and looked as if he's an Afghan,

21:04

but the running of the prison, every now and then

21:08

you would hear Americans walking in the corridors,

21:13

saying things in English which I could very distinctly hear

21:15

and make out to be an American accent.

21:19

Interviewer

Were you interrogated

21:23

while you were in the Dark Prison?

21:24

-

No. In the dark, as I said, in the Dark Prison

21:25

nobody actually spoke with me at all. Nothing.

21:27

Interviewer

Could you speak to a neighbor

21:31

and a neighbor in a cell?

21:32

(sighs deeply)

21:34

-

I think the way the situation was

21:36

and it really was a very unpleasant situation.

21:38

I really kept to myself.

21:41

I didn't wanna speak with others.

21:43

It was very cold, dark, really horrible.

21:45

I just kept to myself, sat in a corner

21:48

and just shivering and that's it.

21:52

I didn't wanna talk. I don't want to say anything.

21:55

I didn't feel it was a situation

22:01

where one needed to to do anything

22:02

that may cause further harm, basically.

22:07

I was trying to preserve myself as much as I can.

22:10

Interviewer

When they took you to Bagram,

22:13

did they tell you why they're taking you somewhere else?

22:15

-

No. No talking.

22:17

Nobody told us anything,

22:18

but when we arrived at Bagram,

22:20

people there like sat and say,

22:22

"This is Bagram. This is Bagram."

22:23

That's how you got to know,

22:25

but I know I was not told anything.

22:27

Interviewer

And what did you think

22:30

when you were in Bagram?

22:31

-

I have to say,

22:32

basically, within a very short period of time

22:33

from living a really comfortable life in London

22:37

to finding myself in a war zone

22:40

and not going there deliberately,

22:43

I think was to say it was overwhelming is an understatement.

22:44

So it was really a very strange,

22:49

peculiar thing to have happened.

22:51

You really it's very difficult

22:55

to make the people listen to this and understand,

22:58

but it's like you wake up one day.

23:00

One day you're at home with your family, you're comfortable

23:03

and then you close your eyes, you open your eyes

23:06

and you're somewhere really horrible.

23:08

And you don't know what happened.

23:10

You really don't know what happened.

23:11

Interviewer

What happened to your brother?

23:13

Was he in Gambia?

23:16

-

My brother was in Gambia.

23:17

He also was arrested or kidnapped,

23:19

whichever phrase one wants use.

23:22

He stayed there for about one month again,

23:28

but he was sent back to the United Kingdom,

23:30

put on a flight and sent back to the United Kingdom.

23:34

He along with another friend

23:36

who was also a British citizen.

23:38

I'm not a British citizen. I hold an Iraqi passport.

23:40

My friend as well, Jamil, he's not a British citizen.

23:44

So we were sort of sacrificed I think. (laughs)

23:47

I think that would be probably appropriate.

23:50

So we were sent off

23:52

to slaughter and my brother and his friend,

23:58

they were sent back to the United Kingdom.

24:01

Interviewer

When you got to Bagram,

24:03

could you describe what it was like in Bagram.

24:05

-

In comparison to the Dark Prison,

24:07

Bagram looked like having almost like...

24:10

It was a horrible heaven, but nevertheless,

24:12

in comparison to the Dark Prison.

24:15

You could see people,

24:17

both the soldiers and the prisoners there,

24:19

although it was officially no talking prison,

24:22

but people will always say something

24:25

or maybe welcome you or say, telling you where you are,

24:27

just explain a few things to you.

24:31

But with time, again,

24:33

it wasn't a very pleasant place to be in at all

24:35

because you can't move, you had to sit in your spot.

24:37

It was like a cage with animals,

24:42

and I'm afraid, it's not nothing more than that.

24:45

And literally it was that.

24:47

You had barbed wire, razor wire.

24:49

It was like almost like cans,

24:52

rectangular sort of sections.

24:55

The facility at Bagram is like an old factory

24:59

from the Soviet Union time.

25:02

And that was intended, divided using razor wire,

25:05

that people would just kept sleeping on the floor and rough.

25:08

Interviewer

More than one in a cave?

25:13

-

Yeah. There were about 10, 12, thereabouts. Yeah.

25:14

There are also some isolation facilities

25:19

which I spent quite a lot of time in.

25:22

Interviewer

Why is that?

25:24

-

And there I was interrogated

25:25

and my interrogator was trying

25:28

to just play that game with me.

25:31

Interviewer

What kind of questions would he ask?

25:36

-

Again, all the questions I was asked

25:38

or almost all the questions I was asked

25:40

it was all about my life in the United Kingdom in London,

25:42

people I knew in London, showing me photos of people,

25:45

if I recognize anybody.

25:48

Again, no accusations, nothing,

25:50

just trying to find out things from me.

25:51

Interviewer

And how long were you in Bagram?

25:54

-

For about three months?

25:57

Interviewer

Did things get better while you were there?

25:59

-

No, I think generally things,

26:02

overall, didn't get better really.

26:04

I mean, generally, things seem to go

26:06

from bad to worse,

26:11

I'm afraid to say that we didn't get better.

26:13

With time more and more problems,

26:16

more and more pain and more and more suffering waiting.

26:19

Interviewer

Were you beaten while you were in Bagram?

26:22

-

Not beaten,

26:25

No. I was subjected to sleep deprivation for awhile

26:26

and a bit of rough handling and pushing around

26:32

and a bit of insults and that sort of thing.

26:35

Interviewer

Could you describe the sleep deprivation?

26:38

-

It's very simple.

26:40

Sometimes it's just what says on the (mumbles)

26:42

"Sleep deprivation." You don't get any sleep. (laughs)

26:44

Interviewer

How did they keep you from sleeping?

26:47

-

Well, this is actually sort of funny

26:49

or at least part of it is sort of funny.

26:52

The isolation cells, they are in

26:55

20 yards away from where we were.

27:00

So it's sort of the different section of the...

27:04

It's like if you imagine a factory that has offices.

27:08

So basically this was a factory

27:12

where the general population was in the factory

27:14

with the rectangular shape can of like structures

27:18

made out of razor wire

27:23

then the office part of it

27:26

it had like various rooms and these were divided into cells

27:29

and people were kept there.

27:33

I would actually, you can see the guards walking in and out.

27:37

So you can actually see the cells,

27:41

but you don't see the people inside.

27:42

So I would always hear people,

27:45

the soldiers telling the prisoners,

27:47

"Stand up, don't sleep. Stand up, don't sleep."

27:49

And with time I realized that they're trying to,

27:52

they're subjecting them to sleep deprivation.

27:56

I was telling myself, "These guys, the prisoners,

27:58

"they really should be tough."

28:00

"They should stand and not sleep

28:02

"and they should just endure."

28:03

In theory, it's perfect.

28:07

But when it came in practice

28:09

and I was subjected to that I said,

28:11

"Now, I understand why they're sitting down

28:14

"and trying to sleep"

28:16

because you get so exhausted

28:17

after one day, two days, whatever it is.

28:19

That's it. You wanna and you're desperate to sleep

28:22

and they'll just shout at you,

28:24

they throw water at you, they may even.

28:27

The last resort if you don't wanna comply,

28:30

they'll go in and beat you up, basically. (laughs)

28:32

So it seems you haven't got not much choice, I'm afraid.

28:35

Interviewer

Were you still thinking

28:39

this was death for you? What were you thinking?

28:40

-

In Bagram because it was three month duration

28:43

so not all of it, but one felt like that,

28:46

but it's certain moments of the experience you think.

28:48

"Okay. I think maybe now they'll kill me."

28:53

That has happened, but it was more like a struggle.

28:55

Unlike the Dark Prison where you felt

28:59

"This is it, I'm gonna be killed and forgotten about."

29:02

But in Bagram, few stages, like towards the end maybe

29:06

when they were taking you away

29:10

or few moments when things were really very tough,

29:12

one felt like that,

29:16

but the overall life is just basically a struggle

29:17

and you're trying to survive that struggle.

29:20

Interviewer

I wanna go back

29:24

to the Dark Prison for a moment.

29:25

Do you know other people who were sent to the Dark Prison?

29:26

-

I knew, for example, people,

29:29

I later on met in Bagram Base

29:31

and subsequently I met in Guantanamo

29:34

and today I'm in touch with them

29:37

because they've been released.

29:39

So people, I haven't seen in the Dark Prison,

29:40

but I've seen subsequently in Bagram

29:45

then we actually moved,

29:48

they took us on the same flight to Guantanamo

29:50

and then they were released and I'm released,

29:53

and we are in touch now

29:55

or we were getting in touch with each other.

29:56

They were in the Dark Prison and they told me like,

29:59

"We were in the Dark Prison before you or after you,"

30:02

that sort of thing.

30:04

Interviewer

Were their stories any different from yours?

30:06

-

Yes.

30:11

I think strange it may seem,

30:12

but what has happened to us seem to be a lot milder

30:16

than what happened to others

30:19

because we stayed in the Dark Prison

30:21

for a relatively short period of time, relatively, that is,

30:23

which I think is under a month.

30:27

But other people who've stayed for many months.

30:30

I knew the situation I described earlier

30:34

with almost no food or very little food,

30:36

the hygiene situation was very dismal,

30:40

like very little water.

30:44

So one of those people I met,

30:47

they moved us from out of the Dark Prison to Bagram

30:51

in a helicopter together.

30:56

I didn't see them,

30:57

but when we arrived in Bagram,

30:58

I got to know that.

31:03

And the guy was very thin, like extremely unhealthily thin.

31:04

And they were giving him some duties

31:10

like distributing the food or whatever.

31:13

So you got to see him a few times.

31:15

And months passed and then we were in Guantanamo

31:18

and then he tells me, "Bisher, do you remember me?"

31:23

So that's quite a few months later

31:27

like maybe six, seven, eight months later.

31:29

And I looked at him and I said,

31:31

"I'm sorry, I don't remember you."

31:32

He said, "We were together in Bagram. You remember?"

31:33

I said, "Thankfully, I don't recognize you

31:36

"because you have gained so much weight

31:38

"and you're looking at healthier

31:40

"than you were looking before."

31:42

So that's the situation.

31:44

I mean, people who were taken to the Dark Prison,

31:46

I think generally, their health deteriorated greatly.

31:52

It wasn't a very nice place to be in.

31:59

Interviewer

Was it called the Dark Prison at that time

32:01

when you first came or?

32:03

-

It's not the name

32:04

that the Americans give the facility, for sure,

32:06

but it is the name that has been given to it

32:09

because it was pitch dark. It was a Dark Prison.

32:12

And I think probably it may also,

32:16

the name may have something to do with...

32:19

I mean, the facility was a prison

32:21

at the time of the Soviet Union.

32:22

So when Soviet Union

32:25

was controlling Afghanistan decades ago,

32:26

the facility was there,

32:30

so the Soviet Union imprisoned people there.

32:31

And funny enough, decades later

32:35

the US government is imprisoning people.

32:37

I find that very ironic, but that's reality.

32:41

Interviewer

Did the British officials

32:46

come visit you at all during this time?

32:50

-

In the Dark Prison nobody came,

32:53

in Bagram, nobody saw me,

32:55

although the British were present in Bagram,

33:01

they came to see other people, but they did not see me.

33:05

However, in Guantanamo,

33:08

they came to see me there.

33:10

Interviewer

We'll get to that.

33:11

When you were in Bagram

33:12

did you see violence committed

33:13

on others while you were there?

33:16

-

I think you see people being roughed up a little bit,

33:18

but generally it's usual.

33:20

Usually, it is sort of behind doors

33:23

and you will only hear the screams and the cries.

33:24

Interviewer

I think I wanna go back

33:28

to the very beginning of when you first arrested in Gambia.

33:29

When, that was?

33:34

-

That was the end of November, 2002.

33:35

Interviewer

And then you were taken to the Dark Prison.

33:39

-

So we stayed in Gambia for about one month, approximately,

33:42

then from Gambia, we were taken to Kabul

33:46

to the Dark Prison in Kabul,

33:49

from Kabul, we were taken to Bagram,

33:51

from Bagram, we were taken to Guantanamo

33:55

and from Guantanamo, I came back to the UK.

33:57

Interviewer

So you probably came to the Dark Prison

33:59

at the end of 2002, probably December or January.

34:01

-

So about that, end of 2002.

34:09

Yeah, beginning of 2001.

34:11

The new year was that. (laughs)

34:13

Interviewer

And then you spent how long in Bagram?

34:16

-

In Bagram, they kept us

34:19

for about three months, me and Jamil.

34:21

Interviewer

And could you and Jamil talk and?

34:24

-

Officially, no,

34:28

but we took a few moments every now and then.

34:29

I mean, we were kept separate,

34:33

but for some time we were put fairly close to each other.

34:35

So maybe he's in one sort of caged area, I'm in another.

34:38

And like the guards not looking at me

34:43

we can just say, "Hello, how are things," and that's all.

34:44

Interviewer

But when you were in isolation

34:48

could you also communicate with other people?

34:49

-

No. I mean, generally when I was in isolation

34:51

I really kept myself to myself.

34:53

I didn't wanna make the situation any worse than it is.

34:55

Interviewer

How many people were in Bagram

34:58

when you were there?

34:59

-

Roughly two to 300 people,

35:04

but it was a (mumbles) speaking, small facility.

35:08

Interviewer

Do you know

35:12

if you were sold to the Americans?

35:13

-

I very much believe we were.

35:14

Of course, I haven't got documentations to prove that,

35:16

but one of the Gambian personnel who was taking care of us.

35:19

He said he saw the higher up,

35:24

his officer who was in charge of this,

35:29

taking money. He could see that.

35:31

So I assume that I have no reason to doubt that

35:33

because he was saying with a grudge.

35:37

He didn't get any. (laughs)

35:39

Interviewer

And you have no idea how much?

35:42

-

No, but I think the Gambian

35:44

Intelligence Agency guy was greedy

35:48

and the American were a bit generous.

35:49

So I think adding those two,

35:52

it would be a fair bit of money.

35:53

Interviewer

And when you were in Bagram

35:57

did you know you might go to Guantanamo

36:00

and had you heard of Guantanamo?

36:02

-

I had heard, and to be honest with you,

36:04

I heard of Guantanamo when I was in the United Kingdom

36:06

and it's strange, you hear about things

36:10

and you see them on television

36:12

and you could never ever imagine yourself

36:13

that one day it will be you.

36:17

And that's exactly how I felt.

36:19

I heard President Bush, talking

36:22

about people in Guantanamo saying,

36:24

"These are terrorists and these are this and this."

36:26

And to be very honest with you

36:29

sincerely, like no kidding,

36:31

I truly believed in my heart

36:33

that people in Guantanamo were terrorists.

36:35

I really believed that.

36:39

And funny, there was one incident

36:40

where I was sitting with my brother-in-law

36:42

and President Bush was describing something.

36:46

And my brother-in-law standing behind me and said,

36:49

"Liar!" I said, "No, he's not.

36:53

"He's the American president. He doesn't lie."

36:55

And then months passed by

36:58

and I found myself there and I said,

37:00

"Bisher, your brother-in-law is right. He's a liar."

37:02

Really about this, it happened in a very ironic sort of way.

37:06

Interviewer

So when you were in Bagram

37:10

did you think you might go to Guantanamo?

37:11

-

No. I mean, Guantanamo was like a taboo,

37:13

like something was really that was the cliff,

37:16

the end of the world.

37:20

So really, no, I did not have any idea.

37:22

I mean, I did not know what was gonna happen to me

37:25

and it didn't look good,

37:27

but really, Guantanamo wasn't on my mind

37:29

till the last few days,

37:32

when the Guantanamo name was being thrown around

37:33

and I think one got an indication

37:37

that one might end up going to Guantanamo.

37:40

Interviewer

What were you thinking then

37:42

when you were heard that?

37:43

-

Not very pleasant.

37:44

You really think it's the end of your life, really.

37:45

I mean, one way or another it's the end of you.

37:47

Interviewer

And were you glad you had Jamil as company?

37:52

-

No, that's not very nice,

37:56

but (laughs) it's not a place you wish

37:58

to have your friends to be with you, let's say.

38:01

Maybe you make new friends, yes, but no.

38:05

It's not very nice. It's not.

38:11

I don't quite look at it that way.

38:14

I definitely did not wish Jamil or anybody else,

38:16

for that matter, to be with me.

38:19

Interviewer

And when they put you

38:21

on the plane to Guantanamo did you know,

38:22

they tell you were going to Guantanamo?

38:24

-

It's not officially, you're being told.

38:26

It's not like you come for an interview

38:27

and they say, "Okay, Bisher, we've decided

38:31

"that you're gonna go to Guantanamo for such reasons."

38:33

No, nobody did that.

38:36

But I think they sort of segregated people,

38:38

people going to Guantanamo,

38:42

people who are not going to Guantanamo and Bagram.

38:43

So you're with the people who are going to Guantanamo

38:45

so you know, there are indications,

38:47

but it's like they're telling you this is going to happen.

38:50

Interviewer

And this was all run by the Americans?

38:54

-

Yeah, absolutely, Americans. Yeah.

38:56

Interviewer

Could you describe exactly how it was

38:57

when you were taken to the plane in Bagram on your way to...

38:59

-

Again, unfortunately it wasn't pleasant at all.

39:03

Again, the same...

39:05

Part of it, you had hoods on your head,

39:11

but latter part, you had defenders, you had goggles,

39:13

you were shackled.

39:18

Again, very heavily restricted.

39:19

And depending on the soldier,

39:24

all the two soldiers you're with,

39:25

some people may be reasonable,

39:27

like they take it at your own pace

39:28

which I have to say happened to me.

39:30

Other people, they may not have very nice people

39:33

handling them and they would drag them.

39:35

So depending on your luck.

39:38

Interviewer

Could you describe the flight to Guantanamo?

39:40

-

The flight to Guantanamo was the longest,

39:46

hardest flight you have been on, really.

39:49

it's very long flight, very difficult,

39:52

sitting on an uncomfortable chair, shackled, cuffs.

39:57

You can't see anything. You can't hear much.

40:00

You're tired.

40:02

People next to you is sleeping on your shoulders

40:05

and you can't do anything.

40:07

You can't sleep.

40:10

You're not awake 100%, you're not asleep 100%.

40:11

And you just uncomfortable, uncertain,

40:14

a lot of anxiety,

40:16

a lot of fear,

40:19

many mixed emotions.

40:23

Interviewer

Could you use the bathroom?

40:24

-

I think in generally, yes.

40:27

Although there were some restrictions,

40:29

but yes, if you need the bathroom,

40:30

they will take you to the bathroom.

40:31

Although, I have to say,

40:32

under less and desirable circumstances.

40:35

Interviewer

Because?

40:39

-

Well, you have to do whatever you do in front of people,

40:40

and (laughs) you can't clean yourself properly.

40:43

You're shackled

40:48

and they pull your pants down and you just have to manage.

40:52

It's not very nice, but at least you can use the bathroom.

40:55

Interviewer

What about eating? Did you get any food?

40:58

-

I think they gave us a sandwich, part of the way.

41:00

Interviewer

Could you eat, shackled?

41:06

-

Yes you could.

41:07

You're still blindfolded,

41:09

but they give it to you in your hand,

41:10

in a reasonable manner,

41:12

it's not like they throw it at you.

41:13

They give it to you in your hand and you eat it.

41:15

So that was facilitated for.

41:17

Interviewer

Did anybody ask for medication

41:19

to knock themselves out to sleep?

41:22

-

I'm not aware of that.

41:25

Although I know that they have put some people out,

41:26

but personally, I did not experience that.

41:29

I don't remember it happening on the flat I was on,

41:32

but subsequently I was told

41:35

that some two things happen to people

41:37

they were very uncomfortable and they did put people out.

41:40

Interviewer

Could you describe

41:43

what happened when you landed?

41:44

Did you stop anywhere on the way to Guantanamo?

41:46

Did the plane stop?

41:48

-

I think the plane is stopped,

41:52

but to be honest with you,

41:53

I just can't, the memory is not very clear on my head

41:54

so I don't wanna claim anything.

41:57

I don't really remember.

41:59

I think possibly we stopped,

42:00

but I don't remember 100%.

42:02

Interviewer

And then when you got to Guantanamo,

42:04

can you describe the moment you arrived? What that was like.

42:05

-

I mean, the landing was just sort of aircraft landing.

42:13

Then we were sort of taken out roughly.

42:16

We were loaded up in what I believe was trucks.

42:19

We sat down in the trucks.

42:23

The trucks sort of drove for a while,

42:25

then got on with sort of,

42:27

felt like a

42:32

smaller craft,

42:35

seagoing craft.

42:38

And that was to cross the Bay.

42:40

Then there was like a water crossing

42:44

and the craft, I think, reached the other side,

42:47

the truck sort of got off

42:50

and then we were sort of, I think,

42:58

driven to the facility of Guantanamo Bay itself.

43:00

There we were unloaded so unfairly roughly.

43:06

We were sat down under the sun,

43:08

and of course, you know it's a sun

43:11

because you can feel the heat.

43:13

One can't see much,

43:16

but you just feel the heat and you're sweating a lot.

43:16

And they started taking us like one at a time inside.

43:20

They were stripping people.

43:25

There were bathed.

43:27

You can't bath yourself,

43:30

the soldiers are bathing you

43:31

which sounds very odd.

43:32

Interviewer

How do they do that?

43:34

-

Well, they stripped you and they put water on you

43:35

and they wash you and you're just shackled.

43:37

And you're standing there, "What the heck is going on?"

43:39

That sort of situation.

43:43

And straightaway, after that you're taken,

43:46

you're given clothes, you put on your clothes

43:48

and you were taken to interrogation straightaway.

43:52

Interviewer

You were hooded and blindfolded

43:55

that whole time until you had your shower?

43:58

-

Yeah. I think, I don't remember

44:01

if the shower we were still had goggles on.

44:03

I don't remember that,

44:05

but the whole time

44:06

even when we were then given a medical examination,

44:08

I've forgotten that.

44:11

They removed the shackles.

44:14

They just sort of check you out.

44:17

They asked you if you have any health problems,

44:18

that sort of thing.

44:20

And they sort of take fingerprints.

44:22

So it was a process of entering Guantanamo,

44:24

they sort of make a record of you

44:27

if you have any particular problems

44:29

or if they note any problems,

44:31

they sort of take fingerprints

44:35

and identify you and that sort of...

44:36

They photograph you and that sort of thing.

44:38

And then after that,

44:41

they take you straight away to interrogation.

44:42

Interviewer

Could you describe that first interrogation?

44:44

-

You had a panel of three people sitting in front of you.

44:47

You sat in a chair again, shackled and cuffed

44:50

and they start asking you questions for a long time.

44:54

Interviewer

What kind of questions?

44:58

-

Again, the same old questions.

44:59

I mean, for me, it was things to do

45:02

with back to my life in London

45:03

and "Who you knew?" and "What did you do?

45:06

"Why this? Why that?" And all of that, just my life.

45:09

Interviewer

And do you know who those three people were?

45:13

-

Not particularly

45:16

and I really have say I don't particularly care

45:17

because through out this experience,

45:18

one has met many interrogators

45:22

and I really don't care to know who they were

45:26

or what agency they were from.

45:29

I don't really care to know that.

45:32

Interviewer

How did they treat you

45:34

during that interrogation?

45:35

-

For me, that person's interrogation was fairly ordinary,

45:36

it's uncomfortable, generally so uncomfortable.

45:40

I was very tired,

45:43

but it was reasonable

45:47

in terms of there were no insults, no particular insults

45:48

or no rough handling or anything like that.

45:51

So it was fairly reasonable.

45:54

Interviewer

Do you think

45:56

you might've been treated better than other people

45:57

'cause you were English?

45:58

-

To be honest with you,

46:00

I don't think I, know that for a fact. (laughs)

46:01

I mean, it's very simple.

46:03

because my family was in the UK

46:09

and I think straight away, they sort of got to lawyers

46:11

and they've got to Amnesty International and all of that.

46:14

And they were starting to make a big deal out of this

46:17

which is a big deal, of course.

46:20

So I think, it wasn't the sort of situation,

46:22

they can just lock us and throw the key

46:25

and forget about us or kill us

46:27

or like what has happened to many people.

46:28

Many people have died

46:31

during these procedures I've just described,

46:32

but definitely as far as I'm concerned, I know for a fact

46:35

that I've been treated much better than others

46:38

because you're asked the question

46:40

and you sort of very quickly established

46:43

that this is five-star treatment compared to others,

46:45

really in very simple terms.

46:49

Interviewer

So you'd noticed the distinct difference.

46:52

-

Not at the actual moment they are treating you,

46:55

you don't feel that you're treated any better,

46:57

but when you compare notes with other prisoners,

47:00

that's when you sort of conclude and realize that,

47:02

"Okay, although what I've gone through was very difficult,

47:06

"but others went through a much more

47:10

"difficult experience than myself."

47:12

Interviewer

But at that time

47:14

you didn't know your family was...

47:15

-

No. I, basically when was in isolation

47:17

from the whole world, you don't know

47:20

if your family knew about you

47:21

or they knew where you were.

47:22

Really, you're just confused and uncertain of anything.

47:24

Interviewer

Did you think your brother might be able

47:29

to have helped you during that

47:30

since he knew what happened to you?

47:32

-

I was very happy to conclude that my brother had left

47:35

and basically it was a very small pinhole at the door

47:41

and I could actually, coincidentally,

47:45

I could see him being taken out

47:48

and he was taken out in a reasonable manner.

47:50

Like he did not have any hoods,

47:52

he has his normal clothes.

47:54

So I was optimistic that he was taken

47:56

in a reasonable manner, somewhere reasonable.

48:00

I did not know that he was going home for certain,

48:02

but because of the manner

48:05

of what I could see from the pinhole,

48:06

I thought I was very optimistic

48:09

that he was gonna go back home or something like that.

48:10

So I was very happy.

48:13

That was a big relief for me at the time.

48:14

Despite the effort of my family,

48:23

they really didn't did not know much

48:24

and they could not know much

48:27

and they could not do much either.

48:28

It is very simple.

48:30

Things were out of their hands.

48:32

It's not like they could go to a lawyer

48:35

and I could have representation,

48:36

I could argue my case in a court or whatever.

48:38

There was none of that, nothing.

48:41

So really the families of prisoners in Guantanamo.

48:42

Till today, as I said before,

48:45

I am in touch with the ex-prisoners,

48:50

I'm also in touch with families.

48:52

By the way I work now, I assist reprieve.

48:56

We're working on, they work on many things

48:59

among which is Guantanamo.

49:02

And I speak, and one of the things I do,

49:04

I speak with families or people in Guantanamo.

49:05

And few days ago, about four or five, six days ago,

49:09

I spoke with the wife of somebody in Guantanamo

49:14

without naming him.

49:18

They have four kids and he's in Guantanamo

49:20

and she's telling me, "What can I do to help my husband?"

49:25

And she lives in one of the Middle East countries.

49:28

And I said, "Look, there's nothing you can do."

49:31

Very simple, "Nothing you can do. Get on with your life,

49:34

"bring up your children, focus on yourself.

49:39

"And speak with your husband and say hello

49:42

"but practically, there's absolutely nothing you can do."

49:45

And this is we're at in 2011 now,

49:49

and this is the situation today

49:53

and it was much more so at the beginning.

49:54

Interviewer

So did you think

50:00

of how to contact your family while you were there?

50:02

-

To be honest with you, I did not have a choice

50:05

in being able to do that in any way.

50:07

However, in Bagram, the Red Cross was present

50:10

and after a couple of months from being there

50:14

I think the Red Cross interviewed me

50:17

and I've sent a letter to my family

50:20

through the Red Cross from Bagram.

50:23

Interviewer

Do you know if they received it?

50:26

-

I presume, yes they have.

50:27

Interviewer

Did you ever receive any--

50:29

-

No, I did not receive anything

50:31

from my family for a very long time.

50:33

I mean, again, in Guantanamo,

50:38

the Red Cross would bring the letters

50:40

or I assume they would bring the letters in,

50:43

but the officials there, they would not give us the letters.

50:45

Interviewer

You mentioned

50:49

that the British came to visit you in Guantanamo.

50:50

Could you describe how that was?

50:52

-

It was a visit.

50:57

(laughs) Basically it's...

50:58

You're not told,

51:01

basically, they tell you, "You have a reservation."

51:02

So you're in your cell, so you come to the door,

51:05

they shackle you and cuff you

51:08

and you go out and you do not know who you're meeting,

51:10

whether you're meeting the same interrogators before

51:13

or a new interrogator or whoever.

51:16

This time around it was a British who I meeting with.

51:19

Interviewer

And did they treat you differently

51:22

from the Americans?

51:23

-

I think generally in Guantanamo

51:26

there is consistency, let's say

51:27

and generally speaking, it's an odd place

51:29

but the general consistency.

51:32

As I said, I was not treated

51:34

as badly as others. I definitely know that,

51:39

both from the very beginning to the end, in general terms.

51:46

Maybe sometimes I was treated worse than others,

51:51

but that's just in general terms.

51:54

And the British, they were British and their attitudes.

51:57

(laughs) They were people whom I knew from before.

52:01

Interviewer

What do you mean you knew them from before?

52:06

-

That's a long story we don't need to, but I had contact

52:08

with the British Intelligence Agency here in the UK.

52:11

And they were the same people

52:15

who came to see me in Guantanamo.

52:16

but we don't need to get into that.

52:19

Interviewer

How did you feel when you saw them?

52:22

-

To be honest with you,

52:26

there to me, everybody was the same face.

52:27

I sort of learned, I don't wanna say quickly learned,

52:33

but I think slowly learned

52:36

that it doesn't matter who you're speaking with

52:38

or what rank he is or whatever.

52:42

I think after about a year or so,

52:45

I started giving the same face to everybody.

52:48

People promise you things, people say,

52:56

"We're gonna do this, we gonna do that.

52:58

"We're gonna help."

52:59

But it's the same story again and again and again.

53:00

And with time you think that it's just a waste of time.

53:04

Interviewer

And did you say

53:09

you saw the Red Cross in Guantanamo?

53:10

-

In Guantanamo, Red Cross is present. Yes.

53:12

Interviewer

Were they helpful?

53:14

-

That's a long

53:17

debating issue.

53:22

I mean, I have my opinions about the Red Cross

53:23

from things they have done

53:27

and the things they didn't do,

53:28

more so the things they didn't do

53:32

than the things they did do.

53:34

And I have great reservations about them,

53:36

about their activities in Guantanamo.

53:40

Having said that, they did a few good things.

53:42

Interviewer

Could you describe some of the things

53:45

on both sides about what they do and what they didn't do?

53:47

-

People in Guantanamo were being hurt,

53:59

they were being tortured,

54:01

they were being abused all the time.

54:03

I mean, it's not necessarily

54:06

that's what's happening to me Bisher,

54:08

all the time, it did not.

54:10

It happened part of the time

54:11

and it happened to others part of the time.

54:13

Some people were subjected to that sort of treatment

54:15

more often than others.

54:18

Some people subjected to it

54:19

for longer periods than others,

54:21

but in general it was happening all the time.

54:23

And I think the Red Cross

54:26

did not do what they needed to do in exposing that.

54:34

And what they thought as benefits,

54:42

benefits they could give to people,

54:45

I did not see that for a very long time.

54:47

I think there were deliberately or otherwise,

54:50

I can't tell you whether it's deliberate or otherwise,

54:53

they were playing the game that the Americans were playing.

54:55

There were, I could almost say, collaborating with them,

54:58

but I don't really wanna say that.

55:03

I don't know what was going on,

55:04

but they definitely did not...

55:05

I did not feel them, they were neutral,

55:09

and I did not feel they were conveying the message

55:12

of the Red Cross in Guantanamo.

55:14

I definitely did not see that

55:16

or sense that for a majority of the time.

55:18

Interviewer

Did you see, you said

55:26

that are a lot of people were treated worse than you.

55:27

Could you describe some of the treatment

55:29

that you saw, did you see anything?

55:32

-

In Guantanamo.

55:35

I think the dictators in the third world countries,

55:41

they're so stupid.

55:44

When they wanna kill somebody they just go and kill him,

55:47

and then in the Western world and (mumbles)

55:50

"You're dictators. You're bad people.

55:54

"You're this and you're that."

55:56

So the thing I learned with Americans

55:57

is that you could destroy somebody's life,

56:00

destroy him completely without even touching him.

56:03

It was very sort of nasty thing.

56:09

I'll give you a very,

56:13

we were talking about The Red Cross

56:15

and I'll tell you a very, an example of something.

56:16

Maybe it's not a big deal, but just think about it.

56:19

Again, it's for you to judge

56:24

and maybe for the viewer to judge at some stage.

56:26

As I said, we were not in touch with our families.

56:31

We could not get in touch with our families.

56:34

However, the Red Cross gives you the facility

56:36

of being able to write to your families.

56:39

However, no guarantee the letter will get through.

56:41

Okay. No guarantee at all.

56:43

And not even a glimpse of hope

56:45

that the letter will get through.

56:47

And time taught us that.

56:50

I'm not saying this

56:51

because, people were getting letters,

56:51

and I'm claiming that.

56:55

No, people do not get letters for very long time.

56:56

And then when you get a letter

57:01

and it's dated nine months ago or a year ago,

57:02

we used to go, "Wow, I've got a letter that's a year old."

57:05

And somebody got a letter six months old.

57:07

"Wow. This is really fresh.

57:09

"That it's only six months old."

57:10

And this is how it was for majority of the time.

57:12

So some%body who hasn't had any news of his family

57:15

for many years now,

57:18

the Red Cross approaches his cell

57:21

And he says, "Are you so-and-so? you tell him, "Yes."

57:23

He tells you, "I've got a letter to you from your family."

57:25

You're delighted, you're very happy.

57:29

And then he gives you the letter

57:31

and you look at it

57:34

and the letter is all redacted.

57:37

It's all in black, nothing.

57:39

I don't know if you can imagine

57:45

or the viewer can imagine,

57:47

how would that individual feel?

57:48

I mean, many people broke down

57:51

because of things like this.

57:52

I mean, if from my, I could simply say

57:54

I think if the Red Cross had the decency

57:56

because they, of course the Red Cross

57:59

they know what they're giving people

58:00

that they see all the letter is redacted.

58:01

They could simply say to the person,

58:03

"Look, your family send you a letter.

58:05

"And the officials, they've blacked it all out

58:07

"and there's nothing in it.

58:10

"But if you want, I can give it to you."

58:11

If the individual has given that introduction,

58:13

I think the situation would have been very much simpler

58:17

and it's another problem to deal with,

58:20

but the way things were done,

58:24

it was deliberately to destroy people.

58:26

And this is a very simple example.

58:29

I mean, again, I can give you many examples.

58:31

People would be sort of locked up

58:34

in isolation for endless months.

58:35

People would be sort of deprived from decent food

58:39

for long periods of time.

58:42

They could simply disconnect the water supply

58:44

and you can't use your toilet.

58:48

They could strip you, keep you naked, literally naked

58:49

or sometimes we would just be on our underpants.

58:53

They could go into the cell, beat up,

58:55

spray with you, pepper, spray you and just leave you there.

58:58

Again, sleep deprivation was used extensively in Guantanamo,

59:02

really extensively,

59:06

but in a very sort of a pretty way,

59:08

if one could call it pretty.

59:11

So all they will say,

59:12

they don't tell you

59:13

why they're subjecting you to sleep deprivation.

59:14

You're in your cell, they tell you, "It's time to move."

59:17

So you basically move from one cell to another

59:20

and an hour later, "It's time to move."

59:23

So you move from one place or another,

59:25

and an hour later or two hours later, "It's time to move."

59:27

And they keep doing that.

59:30

And it's no big deal.

59:31

Order is not written on a piece of paper,

59:34

the guard shift change, and the new shift,

59:35

they would just do the same routine again and again.

59:37

Very simple. It's no big deal,

59:40

but for the individual that this is happening to,

59:42

they destroy your life.

59:46

You really destroy, however strong,

59:47

however tough you are, however principled,

59:49

however much you don't wanna cause any problem,

59:51

but it will destroy you.

59:55

And this has happened.

59:56

It's not like I don't say it will destroy you.

59:57

It's just in theory, no.

1:00:06

I and others, we know people who lost their mind

1:00:08

because of things like this, literally.

1:00:12

With time that were taken

1:00:17

to the psych unit in Guantanamo,

1:00:18

people who have mental problems

1:00:21

and they were sort of being treated

1:00:23

or treated or made worse, depending on...

1:00:25

I mean, I don't think they were being treated.

1:00:28

I think they were made worse,

1:00:29

but that's again, debatable sort of subject.

1:00:30

Interviewer

Did you see that while you were there?

1:00:34

-

Definitely. All of the things that I've just mentioned.

1:00:36

These are things, I was subjected to some of that myself

1:00:38

and I witnessed that definitely myself.

1:00:43

I'm not telling you, I heard or I saw.

1:00:45

No, these are things which I've seen myself.

1:00:47

Interviewer

Could you describe what you experienced?

1:00:51

(mumbles)

1:00:54

-

I mean, I was put in isolation

1:00:58

because my interrogator wanted me to be put in isolation.

1:01:00

I was stripped, I was sprayed with pepper spray

1:01:03

and I had that done to me.

1:01:06

Interviewer

You were (mumbles)

1:01:08

Why were you (mumbles)

1:01:10

-

Well, it could be for a variety of reasons.

1:01:12

I mean, reasons or excuses,

1:01:14

depending on which side of the fence you are.

1:01:17

The initial time is that, I think, the officials there

1:01:28

were just trying to destroy people

1:01:33

and they'll just do these things.

1:01:35

Later on in Guantanamo,

1:01:37

I actually took a stand the last year.

1:01:39

I was just fed up with everything.

1:01:42

My initial approach to Guantanamo is that this,

1:01:44

for a while, for maybe a year and two years

1:01:48

or a bit more two and a half years,

1:01:50

I was always thinking like, "This is a problem situation.

1:01:53

"Let's face it logically.

1:01:58

"Let's try to work it out.

1:01:59

"Maybe the Americans are not understanding.

1:02:02

"Maybe this may be that. Maybe this may be that."

1:02:04

And I kept telling myself this.

1:02:07

I was speaking with officials, ranking officials,

1:02:09

explaining the problem,

1:02:12

how to treat people, decently. How to do this.

1:02:13

Speaking to the Red Cross,

1:02:15

trying to campaign to make things a little bit better.

1:02:17

After about two and a half years,

1:02:21

I look at myself, "Look, Bisher,

1:02:22

"the first year, you said they are not understanding,

1:02:23

"the second year, they're not understanding.

1:02:26

"Well, after awhile, no, they understand."

1:02:27

And they deliberately are treating people this way

1:02:30

is there's no way they can...

1:02:34

I spoke relentless times with officials

1:02:35

from Sergeant, Sergeant majors to officers.

1:02:41

It's not like I've spoken once or twice or three times,

1:02:44

every opportunity that arises

1:02:48

when I see an official and he's at all approachable,

1:02:50

approachable like I'm in my cell and say,

1:02:53

"May I speak with you please?"

1:02:55

And he approaches me. I explain the problem.

1:02:57

I spoke so many times really

1:02:59

like really a lot, because it was...

1:03:02

It's not like one of these small situations

1:03:04

where we say, "Okay, I'll speak once

1:03:06

"and I'll forget about it."

1:03:07

It was an ongoing ordeal.

1:03:09

Everybody was suffering and I really had hope

1:03:10

that one could make things better.

1:03:14

Really, I honestly thought

1:03:15

if I speak enough I could make things better.

1:03:18

After two, three years, I thought, "That's it really."

1:03:23

I concluded that there's absolutely no object

1:03:27

in speaking and trying to explain things.

1:03:30

There's no purpose.

1:03:33

And with time I sort of took a stand.

1:03:35

I sort of became sort of a little bit rebellious,

1:03:38

like not rebellious and causing problems,

1:03:40

but I just don't do anything they asked me to.

1:03:42

"Do this." I won't do it.

1:03:44

And they come and (mumbles) me and then again and again.

1:03:45

Interviewer

How did you feel?

1:03:50

How badly beaten were you?

1:03:52

-

Bad enough.

1:03:54

I think I broke a couple of ribs.

1:03:55

I think I broke one of the small bones in my toes.

1:03:59

Bad enough,

1:04:06

but I think at that time

1:04:06

it was sort of principal thing.

1:04:09

I was not willing to take things anymore.

1:04:13

Interviewer

Were you put in isolation at that point too?

1:04:17

-

At that time I was in camp five

1:04:20

where it is an isolation facility.

1:04:22

Again, one of the things they would do to help people.

1:04:25

Again, you look with your eyes,

1:04:29

we don't see anything, for example.

1:04:33

And again, it's really wicked things, really wicked.

1:04:35

Like for example, in camp, this is in camp five

1:04:39

which was built later on.

1:04:42

They would turn the air conditioning

1:04:44

to a very low temperature.

1:04:46

So people will freeze and many people had bone problems.

1:04:49

And then your bones starts aching

1:04:53

and you try to speak with people.

1:04:56

Then you try to sort of get a message

1:04:58

when you go out to the recreational area,

1:04:59

you try to speak with other wings in camp five.

1:05:02

And say, "Do you have (mumbles)

1:05:07

"No, it's all very normal in here."

1:05:08

So all we had they've turned the air conditioning down

1:05:10

and the first time round, we think,

1:05:13

"Well, maybe it's a mistake.

1:05:14

"Maybe it's a mistake."

1:05:16

And then you speak with the officers.

1:05:17

You do this, you do that and nothing happens.

1:05:19

Okay, maybe they did not know for one hour,

1:05:22

everybody spoke and they did not know.

1:05:24

Two hours, shift change, a new shift

1:05:26

and it stays like this for a few days

1:05:29

and there's no way they don't know.

1:05:32

They're doing this and they're doing it deliberately.

1:05:33

And then what they do, then one moment,

1:05:36

"It's getting warmer.

1:05:40

"Wow. Very good."

1:05:41

And then everybody's happy as it's getting warmer.

1:05:42

"I guess it is still getting warmer

1:05:46

"and it's getting warmer still

1:05:48

"and yet now it's hot and I was very hot."

1:05:51

And then you start taking off your clothes

1:05:53

and then you start sweating.

1:05:55

And they do these things deliberately.

1:05:57

They do that and that's supposedly camp five

1:05:59

where it's under extra supervision and blah, blah, blah.

1:06:01

And then the Red Cross comes

1:06:06

and you speak and if nothing has happened.

1:06:07

Interviewer

And why do you think they do that?

1:06:11

-

If you do that to people,

1:06:16

it's not something you will see.

1:06:18

As I said, in third world country,

1:06:19

they're so stupid, they beat you.

1:06:20

And look, you can all look,

1:06:23

they've tortured me. They do this.

1:06:24

I came out of Guantanamo

1:06:26

and physically, I could not show anything,

1:06:27

but I have to tell you the pain I carry inside

1:06:30

and the memories I have are really very great.

1:06:32

And I have nothing to show.

1:06:38

You look at me now. "They didn't touch him."

1:06:40

Well, you see, that's just one of these things.

1:06:43

Interviewer

I've heard people say

1:06:46

Guantanamo is a psychological prison.

1:06:47

-

It's very much so, as I said, I mean, really.

1:06:50

For a long time, people in Guantanamo,

1:06:54

all of us, we were in self denial

1:06:57

in terms of we had people who were mentally disturbed.

1:07:00

It's very simple.

1:07:04

We are really in a complete self denial.

1:07:05

We would not speak about this among ourselves.

1:07:09

We would not mention, it's like a taboo.

1:07:12

"Don't go near there."

1:07:15

And after awhile, I started looking at us.

1:07:18

First of all, I said, I looked at myself

1:07:22

and I concluded that I'm not normal.

1:07:24

My behavior, my reactions is not normal.

1:07:28

I concluded that.

1:07:31

One day, I thought, I spent...

1:07:33

Guantanamo was a very good time

1:07:37

to think about things, really.

1:07:38

Have your priorities right.

1:07:40

Try to sort out your life, understanding yourself.

1:07:41

I tried to do a bit of that.

1:07:45

One day, they start giving us food,

1:07:48

we get an opportunity to speak with each other

1:07:50

because the beans holes are open for awhile.

1:07:52

So one day I said, "Hello to everybody.

1:07:54

"You know something guys?

1:07:57

"I've been thinking about this quite a bit

1:08:00

"and I think we are not normal."

1:08:02

And to my astonishment, everybody said,

1:08:04

"No, we are normal! We are normal!"

1:08:07

I thought, I sat down and I said,

1:08:09

"My God, we are really not normal (laughs)

1:08:11

"'cause if we're normal,

1:08:14

"that would not be the reaction we would convey."

1:08:15

This is simply, we will not react,

1:08:18

we will not take it in such a hostile manner.

1:08:20

We would not sort of have that stand

1:08:23

that we're not normal people.

1:08:25

People were not normal

1:08:27

because they were treated in a way

1:08:28

that made them abnormal

1:08:30

and many people suffered

1:08:32

and continue to suffer mental problems.

1:08:35

Some people who are released,

1:08:37

I was in touch with a couple of guys,

1:08:39

actually more than two.

1:08:42

I'm personally in touch with more than two people

1:08:44

who are in the free world,

1:08:46

certain countries have taken them aboard

1:08:51

and they are mentally disturbed.

1:08:55

It's very simple. No, you can't deny this.

1:08:58

They are mentally disturbed and to a very large extent

1:09:03

and they became mentally disturbing in Guantanamo.

1:09:07

It's very simple.

1:09:09

You can't like if the average, initially let's say,

1:09:11

the average percentage of mental disturbed people

1:09:15

among this group of individuals in Guantanamo,

1:09:17

let's say it's so much,

1:09:20

that figure, the normal figure in society, generally.

1:09:22

When a few years down the line,

1:09:25

you have maybe 5% of people in Guantanamo

1:09:28

are mentally disturbed, maybe 10% now.

1:09:30

And I think it's probably more than that.

1:09:33

And to a varying degree,

1:09:35

I think that everybody is effected mentally.

1:09:40

Some people a lot more worse than others.

1:09:43

And I think if one was to look at US Army statistics,

1:09:46

I think you would see that there's a large number of people

1:09:51

who lost their minds in Guantanamo,

1:09:56

simply because of the way they were being treated

1:09:59

and what has happened to them,

1:10:01

what they were subjected to, very simple.

1:10:02

Interviewer

Two thoughts.

1:10:06

One is one person we interviewed said

1:10:07

that he was broken by being in Guantanamo.

1:10:09

Does that make sense to you, that word?

1:10:12

-

It does. I think that's the object.

1:10:15

I think that was the ultimate aim of the authorities

1:10:18

is to break and destroy people, very simple.

1:10:21

Interviewer

And how did you endure?

1:10:26

How do people endure and not go crazy?

1:10:27

-

That's a tricky question.

1:10:30

Well, first of all, I mean,

1:10:32

I think crazy is a very broad word,

1:10:37

and this may sound a bit odd.

1:10:46

I got married after I left for Guantanamo

1:10:49

and every now and then, till very recently, like weeks ago,

1:10:52

I would speak with my wife and think,

1:10:57

and my wife would tell me,

1:10:59

"You know, you are not normal."

1:11:00

I tell her, "You know something? I know I'm not normal."

1:11:02

"I've been telling you

1:11:06

"when we got to know each other

1:11:07

"and we were getting married.

1:11:09

"I told you I have not normal.

1:11:10

"So I know this, it's not a surprise.

1:11:12

"Don't think you're shocking me

1:11:14

"by telling me I'm not normal,

1:11:15

"but I'm trying to become normal."

1:11:18

I went to therapy for over a year here in the UK.

1:11:22

I think it helped greatly.

1:11:27

Am I normal?

1:11:31

I still would not consider myself normal.

1:11:32

I still approach things in an abnormal manner.

1:11:35

I still have feelings and emotions and reactions.

1:11:40

Well, they're not quite normal.

1:11:45

I'm hoping that I will be normal sooner rather than later.

1:11:47

But again, I'm realistic in thinking

1:11:50

that maybe some things will never change

1:11:54

or if they change they will change very gradually.

1:11:56

But I will still have quite a bit

1:11:58

of what I took with me from Guantanamo

1:12:04

for many decades to come if I was to live that long.

1:12:07

I'm certain with that.

1:12:11

Interviewer

Do you have dreams (mumbles)

1:12:13

-

Yeah. I mean everybody,

1:12:15

just the normal things.

1:12:18

Again, I've been released now for what over four years.

1:12:20

So I think generally I'm with therapy and with everything,

1:12:25

things are sort of getting better, but very slowly.

1:12:29

Interviewer

How do you think people endured Guantanamo

1:12:36

or how did you endure Guantanamo?

1:12:39

-

I think everybody has their own way.

1:12:42

I mean, from day one from Gambia from day one,

1:12:44

the task I'd given myself was

1:12:48

to preserve my body and mind, that's my mission.

1:12:50

Like all my dreams in my world

1:12:54

I've just put them all aside

1:12:56

and all my hopes, everything I wanna do,

1:12:58

I put it them aside.

1:13:00

I said, "Bisher, this is a situation.

1:13:01

"Your criteria and your priorities

1:13:03

"is to just preserve your body and mind."

1:13:05

And probably mind a lot more important than body.

1:13:08

But this was my aim to preserve both me, to preserve me.

1:13:11

And my efforts and my approach was to do that

1:13:15

in terms of I did not confront the authorities,

1:13:19

again, until the last sort of period, really,

1:13:22

when I would just I sort of left

1:13:25

that sort of task of preserving myself,

1:13:29

I left that on one side for a while,

1:13:31

but for the majority of the period.

1:13:33

And I think that was very important

1:13:36

is that I did not sort of get into problems.

1:13:38

I did not cause problems or not even that.

1:13:43

I mean, sometimes you don't need to cause problems,

1:13:47

but you just walk away from things as much as possible.

1:13:50

You can't walk away from everything,

1:13:55

but at least a lot of the things

1:13:56

and you do not face problems

1:13:58

unless they're really thrown at you

1:14:01

and then you can't just walk away, you have to face it.

1:14:02

So that was my approach really, is that I tried.

1:14:05

The food they were giving us,

1:14:10

which was not, a lot of, was not really edible.

1:14:11

I was trying to eat as much as I could with no reason,

1:14:15

like I just try to do common sense things

1:14:18

like a survival attitude.

1:14:21

Interviewer

You think of family while you were there

1:14:25

to help you stay normal?

1:14:28

-

Family is very important.

1:14:32

I mean, I thought of family a lot.

1:14:34

One thought about one's life a lot, but I tried.

1:14:37

If you were to sit down with yourself

1:14:44

and start thinking what you had

1:14:46

and where you are now and not knowing why,

1:14:49

very simply, this equation will make you go crazy,

1:14:55

very simple terms.

1:14:59

And I actually, sometimes you speak with people

1:15:00

and they say, "You're Bisher.

1:15:03

"You're the guy who was taken from Gambia.

1:15:04

"How we're sorry for you.

1:15:06

"How terrible what has happened to you?"

1:15:07

And when you start thinking like this

1:15:10

that what has happened to me is really bad.

1:15:12

"And how could this happen to me? Why?"

1:15:13

And this will actually drive you crazy and very quickly.

1:15:16

Fairly early on, I thought,

1:15:20

"This slippery path, just don't approach it, Bisher.

1:15:22

"Don't come near it.

1:15:27

"That's it. Don't even think like that."

1:15:29

So when the thoughts start trickling into my mind,

1:15:31

I quickly blocked it,

1:15:36

I think about something else or do whatever.

1:15:37

But I actually just did not want to think

1:15:39

where I was, what I had and what has happened to me.

1:15:44

Just wanted to survive

1:15:48

and just treated every day as it came.

1:15:49

Interviewer

One of the questions that I asked

1:15:53

and it seems like a good question for you right now is

1:15:54

what was the worst experience you had in Guantanamo

1:15:57

or if you could see something that was worse?

1:16:01

-

And I hope this is fairly normal,

1:16:09

but I think what I saw happening to others,

1:16:11

really hurt me a lot more than what was happening to me.

1:16:15

I mean, I was happy not receiving letters from my family,

1:16:22

but not receiving letter from your family is one thing,

1:16:26

but when you hear about that guy

1:16:30

who received that old redacted, blacked out letter,

1:16:31

that was really painful.

1:16:35

When you see other people

1:16:37

in front of you being beaten up, that's very painful.

1:16:38

But I have one incident

1:16:41

which has eaten into me more than others.

1:16:46

And again, some people may not so consider to be big deal,

1:16:52

but to me it was.

1:16:56

One of the things, as I said, I try to do in Guantanamo

1:16:58

and especially that I speak,

1:17:02

I mean my Arabic and English are almost the same.

1:17:03

If people think I'm reasonably fluent.

1:17:06

So this is my language.

1:17:08

So Arabic and English, I'm fairly fluent at.

1:17:09

And people in Guantanamo,

1:17:13

there was a majority of people who were Arabic speaking,

1:17:15

they did not speak English.

1:17:18

So automatically when people wanted something

1:17:20

they would all, "Bisher, could you interpret for us?

1:17:22

"Could you help us?"

1:17:25

It came naturally.

1:17:26

And I tried to do that to the best of my ability.

1:17:28

And generally again, I was taking,

1:17:31

I think, the role of solving some problems

1:17:34

was thrown at me, not deliberately,

1:17:36

but sometimes the things are just thrown at you.

1:17:39

"Okay, he speaks English. Okay, that's it."

1:17:41

And that's both from the prisoner's side

1:17:43

and the authority side, funny enough.

1:17:45

And could be really like ironically funny,

1:17:49

but that's how it was.

1:17:53

One day again, during that year in camp five

1:17:55

when they were putting the air conditioning really cold,

1:17:58

plus not only doing that,

1:18:02

but they were taking the blankets we have.

1:18:03

So all day you would be without your blankets,

1:18:05

without anything and you're shivering too,

1:18:09

you're literally shivering for, let's say,

1:18:10

about 18 out of the 24 hours

1:18:14

and the six hours they give you from night to morning.

1:18:17

They only give you the blanket for six hours.

1:18:22

And again, they played games with that.

1:18:25

So the guy in front of me,

1:18:26

they were giving him his blanket

1:18:33

and they (mumbles) so they can take it out.

1:18:34

And the blanket has your name on it or something like that.

1:18:36

So you can identify it

1:18:39

and they'll give you the right blanket

1:18:41

because some people they don't like

1:18:42

to use other people's blanket, which is understandable.

1:18:43

I was flexible on this as long as it's a warmish blanket.

1:18:45

So this guy, he was given his blanket and he told him,

1:18:50

"This is not mine. Mine is just that one."

1:18:53

He said, "So you're refusing that."

1:18:56

He said, "No, I'm not refusing.

1:18:57

"That's my blanket over there. Just give me my blanket.

1:18:58

"So now you're refusing, that's it."

1:19:00

So he didn't give him the blanket.

1:19:03

And I felt like in a short while

1:19:04

he'd come and give him his blanket back, but he didn't.

1:19:05

And I saw, I called the person in charge.

1:19:08

I said, "Look, you need to give this guy his blanket."

1:19:11

And the problem is that this guy, he was very ill.

1:19:13

He had kidney problems,

1:19:16

he had a variety of health problems

1:19:18

and he had problems with his bones.

1:19:20

And I tried very hard to get the blanket to this guy

1:19:22

and he would simply not give it to him.

1:19:27

And then you start hearing him crying

1:19:31

and screaming and shivering.

1:19:33

And you can see, from the little window

1:19:38

you can see him just like suffering in his cell.

1:19:40

That was very difficult for me.

1:19:44

And it's very difficult

1:19:46

and it was unnecessary, uncalled for.

1:19:48

Sometimes people...

1:19:51

For me, if somebody causes problem and he gets punished,

1:19:52

I haven't got a problem with that,

1:19:55

that's it, it's a fair game.

1:19:56

But when somebody doesn't do anything

1:19:58

and he just wants his entitlement.

1:20:02

"I don't want more than my...

1:20:03

"I'm supposed to get my blanket.

1:20:04

"Please give me my blanket."

1:20:06

And then they start playing games and they don't do that.

1:20:07

That's very painful.

1:20:10

And there are many incidents like this.

1:20:12

With this one, I think, I carry with me till today.

1:20:14

Interviewer

Why do you think

1:20:20

it was so meaningful to you?

1:20:21

-

I dunno. I think generally,

1:20:23

I'd like to think any half decent person,

1:20:27

he doesn't like to see others suffer.

1:20:31

I think people who like to see people suffer

1:20:36

are really, they have a mental problem.

1:20:38

Regardless of who's suffering

1:20:41

even if it's your enemy,

1:20:43

I think, people should have a certain level of decency

1:20:45

that certain things are not right,

1:20:49

just simple, no complicated issues there.

1:20:52

I dunno.

1:20:57

There's some things I just can't live with.

1:21:00

I think those sort of situations,

1:21:01

and there were many of them in Guantanamo.

1:21:04

I just couldn't live with those.

1:21:06

Interviewer

Did you see anyone try to commit suicide?

1:21:09

-

Sensitive and important subject.

1:21:16

Let's say I had many people and fairly many people,

1:21:19

discuss with me and give me propositions

1:21:22

of ways of committing suicide. Yes.

1:21:24

Interviewer

What does that mean?

1:21:28

-

It means people to consult with you.

1:21:29

"How do you think I can kill myself?"

1:21:31

Very simple.

1:21:32

I said, "Don't do that!" (laughs)

1:21:33

I tell you something.

1:21:37

And when I think people who listen to this,

1:21:39

they are probably sort of coming from...

1:21:42

Sorry.

1:21:45

People who listen to this program,

1:21:47

they may have some idea

1:21:49

about what has happened in Guantanamo.

1:21:51

Who are the people there?

1:21:53

But I think a lot of things...

1:21:55

And when I speak, I speak as a inside observer

1:21:57

or somebody who was there.

1:22:01

So I speak from a different angle,

1:22:03

a different perspective to normal people.

1:22:06

So, however strange it may sound,

1:22:10

but people will speak with you and say,

1:22:14

"Bisher, do you think if I was to do one, two, three, four,

1:22:16

"do you think I'll kill myself?"

1:22:20

I said, "No, I think this will paralyze you." (laughs)

1:22:22

And it's very, like you try to talk people out of it,

1:22:25

but it's a different mindset, it's a different situation.

1:22:29

Really, it's very strange.

1:22:35

I find it very strange that people will consult.

1:22:37

I mean, if I wanna kill myself,

1:22:41

I wouldn't consult anybody personally,

1:22:42

but people will consult with you and say,

1:22:44

"Okay, how about if I do this?

1:22:45

"If I take an overdose of this?"

1:22:46

And you think it's craziest, that's just not normal.

1:22:48

And if it's just one person, that's fine,

1:22:52

but when you have one person today

1:22:55

and another person in a couple of weeks down the line

1:22:57

and you think what's going on here.

1:23:00

You can then, that makes up of emotions arises.

1:23:02

Interviewer

Why were they asking you that question?

1:23:08

-

Well, I have a good engineering background. (laughs)

1:23:11

I speak English.

1:23:15

I don't know if that qualifies me,

1:23:17

but I don't know.

1:23:19

I think they ask other people as well.

1:23:21

I'm not the specialist.

1:23:23

I, by the way, I haven't helped people to commit suicide.

1:23:24

And I am really against that,

1:23:29

really very strongly on principle against that.

1:23:31

But people ask, it's not an easy thing to do, I think.

1:23:38

And I think people like to get words of encouragement

1:23:42

which I never gave by the way.

1:23:46

Interviewer

Did you suggest they see a psychologist

1:23:47

or something?

1:23:49

-

No.

You see a psychologist in Guantanamo

1:23:51

and his job would be to destroy you as well.

1:23:54

So this is very important.

1:23:56

It's not like you see a psychologist

1:23:58

and they're there to help you.

1:23:59

In Guantanamo, anybody on the other side of the fence,

1:24:01

nobody is there to help you,

1:24:09

nobody is there to

1:24:10

make you survive the experience.

1:24:13

They're getting paid to help destroy you,

1:24:17

it's very simple terms.

1:24:21

I will very slight exclude few individuals

1:24:24

who have sort of veered

1:24:29

from the path of the establishment, a little bit.

1:24:32

So that's it.

1:24:36

They're happy for you to just get along

1:24:37

and just live normal.

1:24:40

But these are very few and far between,

1:24:42

very few and far between,

1:24:45

but the majority of people

1:24:46

they're not there to help, I'm afraid.

1:24:47

Interviewer

I'd like to talk about those people,

1:24:50

but why do you feel psychologists were after great people?

1:24:51

Do you have...

1:24:56

-

It's not like I think that, it's practically.

1:24:57

I mean, I'll give you an example.

1:25:02

For example,

1:25:04

"I'm gonna, I feel like killing myself.

1:25:06

"You feel like killing yourself? Okay.

1:25:09

"Get the psych unit."

1:25:11

They come.

1:25:14

"What happened?

1:25:16

"Okay. He said that he is thinking of killing himself.

1:25:16

"Okay. Take all his clothes from him.

1:25:20

"Take everything from him, strip him down."

1:25:22

Even if you were not thinking of killing yourself,

1:25:26

you're start thinking of killing yourself.

1:25:28

So the way they dealt with things

1:25:30

is not like solving the problem

1:25:31

is more like agitating the problem

1:25:34

and pushing you further

1:25:36

into doing what you were thinking of doing, really.

1:25:38

I mean like if somebody is standing at a bridge

1:25:43

and you say like, if you were to do 5%

1:25:46

of what the psych unit, psych people

1:25:50

did to people in Guantanamo,

1:25:53

promise you, guaranteed, they will jump.

1:25:55

Really, no doubt in my mind, not for one second.

1:25:58

I mean, that was their approach.

1:26:03

So very quick...

1:26:04

Okay, the first time, it's a mistake.

1:26:06

Maybe the first time they did not understand,

1:26:08

but when it happens day in and day out

1:26:10

and you think, "That's it."

1:26:11

Interviewer

So maybe they take your clothes away

1:26:14

so people can't hang themselves.

1:26:15

-

No, I understand that.

1:26:17

I understand where they're coming from,

1:26:21

but if you come to somebody who's desperate

1:26:23

and you push them further

1:26:26

and you make him more desperate

1:26:28

and you think, "Okay, he's not gonna kill himself."

1:26:31

Well, that's not very clever.

1:26:34

It's not very intelligent and it's not very...

1:26:35

I don't think that's what they taught them at school.

1:26:38

I really don't think.

1:26:41

I mean, even if you give him little bit of attention,

1:26:45

little bit of understanding,

1:26:48

you may be able to go miles with him,

1:26:50

but to simply strip him and treat him like that,

1:26:53

I think, that's how you get people committing suicide.

1:26:57

That's how it happens.

1:27:01

Interviewer

I'm guessing some of the people came to you

1:27:04

'cause they were hoping you would give them--

1:27:06

-

Good sound advice.

1:27:09

Interviewer

A reason to live.

1:27:10

-

Not very (mumbles) Actually, they were very persistent,

1:27:12

I have to say. No. (laughs)

1:27:15

It's not that.

1:27:18

I mean, people, they just wanted...

1:27:19

That's it, very persistent.

1:27:25

They were very persistent.

1:27:29

And you say it 100 times, "Don't do this. Don't do this."

1:27:36

And they'll go back.

1:27:39

"Okay, tell me how I can do it."

1:27:40

I said, "Don't do it." And he said, "How can I do it?"

1:27:41

It's one of these.

1:27:44

Interviewer

What about doctors?

1:27:49

Were doctors? And you said (mumbles)

1:27:49

-

It's very simple.

1:27:58

Again, I was interpreting for many people.

1:28:00

I told you, the last sort of period I rebelled

1:28:06

and I did that very deliberately and very consciously.

1:28:10

I was going to accept

1:28:17

and I did accept the consequences of my actions,

1:28:18

but use somebody....

1:28:26

I give you various story,

1:28:27

but then one of this story which I really liked.

1:28:28

I still sometimes think about it

1:28:32

and I just don't believe this is true or fiction,

1:28:33

like really, I just don't believe it.

1:28:36

Like somebody would ask me,

1:28:38

"Bisher, this," what'd you call, I've forgotten, corpsman.

1:28:39

The Navy medical small medical people,

1:28:45

they call them corpsman.

1:28:48

"Bisher, the corpsman is here,

1:28:49

"could you please tell him I have gum infection

1:28:50

"and I need something? Okay."

1:28:54

So the corpsman will look,

1:28:56

"Yes, you have gum infection.

1:28:59

"Yeah, you need a mouthwash

1:29:00

"and you need blah, blah, whatever.

1:29:03

"Okay, good."

1:29:04

Two, three days they say,

1:29:07

"Bisher, the corpsman is here.

1:29:08

"Could you please tell him I have a problem?

1:29:09

"What is your problem?

1:29:12

"The gum.

1:29:13

"It's the same problem? Yes.

1:29:14

"Okay. I remember it.

1:29:15

"Okay. So he has this problem.

1:29:16

"Okay. No problem.

1:29:17

"Okay. Yeah." And he'll look at, "You have infection.

1:29:18

"Yeah, no problem. Okay."

1:29:20

And a week later and two weeks later (coughing)

1:29:22

And I think at a certain stage,

1:29:27

I was moved out of a place

1:29:30

and then taken back about a month later.

1:29:32

And I came about a month later.

1:29:34

"Bisher, the corpsman is here.

1:29:36

"Could you please tell her.

1:29:37

"What's wrong with you now?

1:29:39

"It's the same old problem."

1:29:40

I said, "The same?

1:29:42

"It's almost two months and I left and came back."

1:29:43

And you think, "What's going on?"

1:29:48

You start thinking like, "Is this real or is this?"

1:29:51

It can't be, somebody has a gum problem.

1:29:56

The way I look at it is that

1:29:59

either you treat him or you don't.

1:30:01

"Look, I don't wanna treat you."

1:30:02

But that playing of game.

1:30:03

"Okay. I'm gonna do something.

1:30:05

"Okay, yes. Okay, yes. Maybe."

1:30:06

Just be persistent just to...

1:30:08

It's at a very strange level.

1:30:11

Another incident, again, this is one of these funny, sad.

1:30:15

You don't know if the person's really is in his sound mind.

1:30:19

Somebody I think broke his hand.

1:30:23

It was a problem between two individuals.

1:30:27

The guy broke his hand. No problem.

1:30:30

They took it fairly reasonably, seriously.

1:30:33

They took him, they x-rayed him and they plastered it.

1:30:36

Fine, really, that's very good first class service.

1:30:39

He was next to me, "Bisher."

1:30:47

(laughs) Really? I laugh, I don't know.

1:30:48

I'm laughing, but...

1:30:51

"My hand is swelling.

1:30:54

"Are you sure?

1:30:57

"Yes, it is.

1:30:58

"The plaster is very tight on my hand.

1:30:59

"Are you sure? Okay.

1:31:02

"Did you speak with the (mumbles)

1:31:03

"Yes, I told him two hours ago. Okay."

1:31:06

I'm saying two hours ago, but it's awhile.

1:31:09

I don't remember the time,

1:31:10

but I'm just making that part up.

1:31:11

"Let's wait a little bit.

1:31:16

"Are you sure it's swollen.

1:31:17

"Show me your other hand."

1:31:19

It's really, swollen, like really.

1:31:22

So you speak with the soldier.

1:31:25

"Could you call a call the call the corpsman?

1:31:27

"The corpsman is gonna come in in an hour's time. Okay."

1:31:28

You wait. So hour passes by and his hands really swollen,

1:31:31

it's becoming a little bit bluish.

1:31:35

And corpsman, "Look, you help put the plaster. Thank you.

1:31:38

"But it's too tight and his hand is swollen

1:31:41

"and you need to remove it."

1:31:43

"Very complicated.

1:31:48

"Okay, there's this pill.

1:31:49

"I do have one of these pills,

1:31:50

"take it and that reduces swelling."

1:31:51

I said, "Okay, take the pill and so on.

1:31:54

"So take it, let's see."

1:31:57

And then the corpsman standing there,

1:31:59

he's waiting for the swelling to come down

1:32:01

after taking pill.

1:32:03

And you try to have him understand

1:32:06

that really, pills don't quite work like this.

1:32:09

It's not like when you take the pill, the swelling go down.

1:32:13

And if there's a cause for the swelling,

1:32:15

the pill is not gonna do anything.

1:32:18

And after hours and hours of arguing

1:32:21

and then the corpsman would wait

1:32:24

and go back and come and go back.

1:32:25

"Yeah. No, swelling is not coming down."

1:32:27

and after, maybe, two or three days,

1:32:29

they took him and cut the plaster.

1:32:32

And so these things it's...

1:32:35

I'm not a medical person,

1:32:38

but not only common sense,

1:32:39

but you look at his hands,

1:32:41

this one is blue and fat and this one is normal,

1:32:44

there is a problem, you need to resolve the problem

1:32:49

or God forbid, his hand could be chopped off

1:32:51

for whatever happens.

1:32:53

But these are sort of persistent, like stupidity combined

1:32:55

with irresponsibility combined with I don't know.

1:33:00

Really, it's a very strange combination of events

1:33:04

and things that made Guantanamo what it is.

1:33:07

(mumbles) for example,

1:33:09

Guantanamo was a place where they'd beat up people.

1:33:13

Beat up people!

1:33:15

Actually you'd be surprised,

1:33:16

people could survive intact, being beaten up.

1:33:17

That's strange, but actually they can.

1:33:21

If they're just not giving them good food,

1:33:23

people could survive not getting that.

1:33:26

People can survive under many different circumstances

1:33:28

and they will still preserve body and mind.

1:33:31

But when you combine a variety of things,

1:33:35

under controlled harsh environment,

1:33:38

that's when people start losing it.

1:33:41

Interviewer

A dentist, would you say the same?

1:33:47

-

(laughs) Sorry.

1:33:49

I'm sorry. I don't, but...

1:33:51

I tell you something.

1:33:55

Everything you bring up, I'll tell you a story about.

1:33:57

One of the guys, he had a crown.

1:34:04

One day the crown fell.

1:34:07

"I have my crown, could I see a dentist?

1:34:11

"You have a crown? Give it to us."

1:34:14

And you're not allowed to have a crown. (laughs)

1:34:16

"No, I'm not gonna give it to you.

1:34:21

"If you don't give us your crown, we'll (mumbles) you.

1:34:23

"Give us your...

1:34:25

"You know I'm not (mumbles) really.

1:34:26

"Look, I know that you'll lose it.

1:34:28

"You're gonna give it back.

1:34:29

"No, I promise you, I'll give it back to you.

1:34:30

"No, I don't wanna give it to you.

1:34:32

"Bisher, what do you think?

1:34:33

"Look, maybe.

1:34:35

"Okay, look, give us your crown

1:34:36

"and we will take you to dentist and we sort that.

1:34:37

"Bisher, what do you think?

1:34:40

"Gosh. Well, I really don't know.

1:34:41

"Maybe, they'll take you.

1:34:44

"I don't know. I'm not very sure.

1:34:44

"I'm not gonna give you my crown.

1:34:46

"Okay. I'm gonna give you the crown.

1:34:48

"Okay. This is my crown. Okay."

1:34:49

A few days down the line, a couple of weeks.

1:34:52

"So and so what has happened? Did you go to the dentist?

1:34:53

"No. They took the crown.

1:34:56

"They didn't give it back to me. (laughing)

1:34:57

"And they didn't take me the dentist,

1:34:59

or "I went to the dentist and he said,

1:35:01

"where is your crown?"

1:35:02

I said (mumbles)

1:35:03

And things like this.

1:35:05

Me personally...

1:35:08

People would end up going to the dentist

1:35:13

when their teeth need to be pulled out, very simple.

1:35:15

Maybe certain moments, certain periods

1:35:18

things were for a short period, better,

1:35:21

maybe people had some feelings,

1:35:24

but generally when things become that so desperate,

1:35:26

your mouth is swollen

1:35:29

and you just visibly that's it,

1:35:30

it's gone, the tooth is gone.

1:35:33

They all take you to the dentist or simply pull it out.

1:35:35

But as in dental care,

1:35:37

even like proper tooth brushes and proper toothpaste,

1:35:39

we didn't and I'll tell you a couple of stories about this.

1:35:44

When I was released, I was really very astonished

1:35:46

that my sister called me about a week or 10 days

1:35:49

after I was released.

1:35:53

And she said, "I'm going to the dentist.

1:35:54

"Would you like to go?"

1:35:56

I said, "Well, maybe?"

1:35:57

And that night, my filling fell

1:35:59

like it was just in the nick of time.

1:36:03

It was sort of weak from before

1:36:06

and there was like problem with it.

1:36:08

But me personally

1:36:12

like four years there

1:36:15

I did not have any dental care that's worth mentioning.

1:36:17

Checking my fillings

1:36:21

or doing a filling or anything like this.

1:36:22

Although a dentist passed by

1:36:25

and look at your mouth and open.

1:36:27

Those formalities did happen.

1:36:29

It's the same,

1:36:34

so there's consistency in the way people were treated

1:36:35

and what has happened to people

1:36:40

and to their experience, there's real consistency.

1:36:42

Interviewer

You ever gone on hunger strike?

1:36:47

-

Yes, I think you wouldn't be a Guantanamo graduate

1:36:49

if you did not go on a hunger strike, absolutely.

1:36:53

Interviewer

Could you describe it?

1:36:55

Were you forced fed or?

1:36:56

-

No, actually I stopped short of that.

1:36:58

First of all, hunger strike

1:37:05

is not a very pleasant thing to endure.

1:37:06

In fact, I have to say,

1:37:08

again, I left my comfortable life in London thinking

1:37:11

that if I don't eat three meals

1:37:13

or at least two meals a day, I'll die.

1:37:15

That's the mentality I left with.

1:37:17

So to hear people being on hunger strike

1:37:20

for weeks or maybe months or more than a month

1:37:22

was real, I couldn't believe that.

1:37:25

People can actually survive without eating?

1:37:28

How could you do that?

1:37:31

The pictures we see of Africa,

1:37:33

the starving people in Africa,

1:37:34

this is like a movie.

1:37:36

It's real, but, excuse me, it's not real.

1:37:38

Like you don't quite,

1:37:41

"Okay, he hasn't eaten."

1:37:43

When they tell you, "So and so hasn't eaten

1:37:44

"in a week or two weeks or 10 days.

1:37:46

"Well, maybe they haven't eaten, but they snacked."

1:37:49

(laughs) That's the image, be honest with you.

1:37:52

That's the image I had

1:37:56

when I left the world, the real world.

1:37:57

So I got to Guantanamo and then there were many issues.

1:38:02

People were hunger striking,

1:38:05

again, that one's very extremely against my principle

1:38:06

of preserving body and mind.

1:38:11

I'm not gonna do that.

1:38:14

So on principle of preserving myself,

1:38:15

many times hunger strikes took place,

1:38:18

I did not participate.

1:38:20

On one occasion and that's later on,

1:38:21

I felt very obliged to participate and I did participate

1:38:25

and funny enough, I did not die.

1:38:28

Although I have to say,

1:38:31

I really felt that I was going to die, but...

1:38:32

Interviewer

But you weren't forced fed.

1:38:34

-

No, because I think you have to be on hunger strike,

1:38:36

so you have to lose so much weight,

1:38:39

you have to meet certain criteria.

1:38:42

I fell short of those criteria, thankfully.

1:38:45

Interviewer

Was that during your rebellious time?

1:38:47

-

I think that was just before.

1:38:50

That was when I was on edge of things

1:38:53

and things like not certain,

1:38:54

but sometimes you're compelled

1:38:57

to walk with your comrades on a road.

1:38:58

Interviewer

I think I'm almost done, in Guantanamo,

1:39:02

but could you describe,

1:39:04

I have a couple more questions about Guantanamo.

1:39:06

Before we leave, what do you mean by your rebellious time?

1:39:07

What exactly is that?

1:39:10

-

Again, it's the time when I became certain in my mind

1:39:12

that the authorities are there to hurt us

1:39:18

and harm us and destroy us.

1:39:21

And with that, I thought there was absolutely no purpose

1:39:25

in me complying with such authority.

1:39:27

If the authority is there to serve a purpose, its purpose,

1:39:31

but preserve us, the prisoners reasonably,

1:39:35

I'm reasonably happy to comply with with them.

1:39:38

But if their end game is that they're gonna destroy me,

1:39:42

I might as well not help them do that.

1:39:45

So that's how I thought about it.

1:39:47

So basically, anything they would ask me to do

1:39:50

like, "Go to interrogation." I would refuse.

1:39:52

And my simple request,

1:39:54

"I want you to treat people here fairly, including myself.

1:39:56

"Just treat us fairly and I will comply with you."

1:39:59

They never did and I never complied.

1:40:02

Interviewer

And did they beat you (mumbles)

1:40:04

-

Yes, absolutely.

1:40:06

I broke a couple of bones.

1:40:07

Interviewer

And that was, you were willing to pay that?

1:40:11

-

Absolutely. Yes.

1:40:13

Interviewer

Do you think

1:40:15

it was becoming hopeless for you a bit?

1:40:16

-

Not.

1:40:18

I don't wish to think

1:40:22

that I did it because I felt hopeless.

1:40:24

I don't think that was the drive, really.

1:40:26

That was the incident with that blanket

1:40:29

and that just happened.

1:40:31

I was just pissed off,

1:40:35

"That's it, I just don't care."

1:40:38

I had enough in that sort of,

1:40:42

but not hopeless as in terms of, "I wanna kill myself."

1:40:43

It's not. I like to think,

1:40:46

I didn't get too close to that too often.

1:40:50

Interviewer

Did you think you'd get out of Guantanamo?

1:40:52

-

Initially for a long time, no.

1:40:56

I think later on began to have some hope,

1:40:59

but I will always dash to hope

1:41:03

because when you have hope and doesn't happen,

1:41:04

you're really demoralized.

1:41:07

So I tried to stay away from that sort of feeling.

1:41:08

So I would always tell myself,

1:41:10

"I will not get out of Guantanamo."

1:41:12

But I had that little bit glimmer of hope.

1:41:14

Interviewer

Did you see other British people leave?

1:41:16

Is that what gave you hope?

1:41:20

Or what gave you hope?

1:41:21

-

To be honest with you,

the British people, the British citizens.

1:41:22

I and my friend, Jamil, we're not British citizens,

1:41:24

we are residents in the UK, but we have family here,

1:41:26

but we're not British citizens.

1:41:29

And the British citizens along with other Europeans

1:41:31

they had left two odd years earlier.

1:41:34

So the gap was too far for me to sort of relate to that.

1:41:39

So it wasn't that. No.

1:41:45

But people were being released very few.

1:41:46

All lawyers were doing their very best.

1:41:51

They were coming and seeing us, me and Jamil and they were

1:41:53

fairly optimistic.

1:41:58

I have to say, I never was like really optimistic.

1:42:03

I did not allow myself to have that high level of optimism

1:42:06

where if it's dashed, I will be really hurt.

1:42:10

I did not want to go down that line.

1:42:13

Interviewer

I'm gonna ask you about leaving,

1:42:16

but did you have question about Guantanamo?

1:42:18

Interviewer

Just ask about religion.

1:42:21

Interviewer

What about it?

1:42:24

Interviewer

Were you allowed,

1:42:25

this time when you were in Bagram,

1:42:27

were you allowed to pray?

1:42:31

Were you allowed to have the Koran?

1:42:33

Interviewer

In Bagram?

1:42:37

Interviewer

Starting in Bagram.

1:42:38

-

In Bagram, it wasn't very pleasant.

1:42:39

It's one of these things

1:42:47

where I can't tell you, they did not allow us to pray,

1:42:47

but they were extremely disrespectful

1:42:51

of that aspect of one's life.

1:42:55

They would so very simply interrupt you

1:42:59

or push you or do things when I was praying.

1:43:01

Not necessarily every time,

1:43:05

but that was a fairly common occurrence.

1:43:07

So Bagram wasn't really a good place for that.

1:43:11

And if people wanted to pray together,

1:43:14

they would just not allow them to do that,

1:43:16

forcefully, they would stop people from doing that.

1:43:18

In Guantanamo, you could pray,

1:43:21

but again, they would, for a long time,

1:43:23

they would make fun of you.

1:43:26

Again, not necessarily all the time with everybody,

1:43:30

but they will pass by see you pray,

1:43:33

they will make some fun.

1:43:34

The Koran became a game.

1:43:37

They knew if they were to do something with the Koran,

1:43:41

people will cause problems.

1:43:44

It's that circle of, "Okay, let's do something.

1:43:46

"Let's see where we are today."

1:43:48

And the sort of intimidating tactics,

1:43:50

which are very common in Guantanamo.

1:43:53

But in general, one could theoretically pray.

1:43:56

One did pray, but it wasn't without its disturbances

1:44:00

or without the needing to look behind your back

1:44:03

whether somebody is gonna do something stupid or not.

1:44:07

Interviewer

How did you hear

1:44:11

you were gonna leave Guantanamo?

1:44:12

-

Again, everything happens quickly there,

1:44:16

quickly and not very sort of

1:44:18

pronounced way.

1:44:22

So again, one of these days,

1:44:25

somebody came to me said, "You have reservation."

1:44:27

That was on my rebellious time towards the end.

1:44:29

"Okay. I'm not going. What do you mean you're not going?"

1:44:36

I told him, it was a new guy.

1:44:41

"I don't go to reservations."

1:44:42

He told me, "You have to go.

1:44:44

"I'm not going. Okay then."

1:44:45

Then he went and brought a bigger officer.

1:44:48

"You have a reservation. You need to come out.

1:44:51

"I'm not going.

1:44:53

"And are you sure?

1:44:55

"Yes, I'm not going. Okay, I'll show you."

1:44:56

He went back and came back with an interpreter.

1:45:00

"Could you please come out? (laughs)

1:45:03

"It's good for you. You're leaving." That sort of thing.

1:45:06

Interviewer

That's how they told you?

1:45:09

-

Yeah. So basically I refuse to go out of my cell,

1:45:10

thinking is just a reservation.

1:45:15

And then he said, "Look this is good for you."

1:45:17

He tried to sort of make it...

1:45:19

I said, "Well, Bisher, if it's actually for leaving,

1:45:21

"there's no harm there.

1:45:23

"See what's going on. Okay."

1:45:24

So I went out and then they sort of took fingerprints

1:45:26

and photos and that sort of thing.

1:45:30

And he said, "Well, this looks fairly official."

1:45:32

Nothing for certain and this is

1:45:35

because people went through this procedure

1:45:36

and they got to the flight

1:45:38

and they took them out of the flight

1:45:39

and back to their cells.

1:45:41

Interviewer

How do you know that?

1:45:42

-

People, I know people. Lemme show you.

1:45:43

That guy whose hand was broken,

1:45:45

he was one of these people.

1:45:47

They actually put him on the flight

1:45:49

and took him out of the flight.

1:45:51

And this has happened not to one person or two or three,

1:45:53

it has happened fairly frequently.

1:45:56

You just put in your mind

1:45:59

until I land and the country, a home.

1:46:00

It's still touch and go, like nothing for certain

1:46:07

and that's how it was.

1:46:10

I thought, "Well, that looks a bit interesting."

1:46:12

Then I think a few hours later, my interrogator came.

1:46:16

They didn't take me back to myself,

1:46:21

they kept me in the same room. (laughs)

1:46:22

So they don't need to worry about me not coming out again.

1:46:26

Then my interrogator came with somebody else and said,

1:46:29

"Bisher, you're leaving this and that."

1:46:31

I said, "Maybe, maybe not. We don't know how it is."

1:46:33

He asked me a few questions, "What are you going to do?"

1:46:36

He asked me, "Do you intend to help people

1:46:39

"back in Guantanamo?"

1:46:41

And I said, "I'm gonna do all I can

1:46:42

"to help them as much as I can."

1:46:44

And I told him exactly what I was

1:46:45

and I think if he was to listen to this,

1:46:48

he will see that I've done almost as much as I could

1:46:51

from the things that I said I would do.

1:46:55

And it sounded like I was going to be released.

1:46:58

Went to bed, I think, a day or so later,

1:47:03

middle of the night, they woke me up.

1:47:05

They said, "You need to change into these clothes."

1:47:08

They looked different.

1:47:09

They were white or whatever they were.

1:47:10

Again, nothing, not like they're telling you,

1:47:14

"You leaving or this."

1:47:16

But anyway, they said, "Don't take anything with you."

1:47:17

Like a few con, which you think there is something going on.

1:47:19

I changed into them.

1:47:23

Again, this is what they told me.

1:47:24

And they took me out, put me in a van,

1:47:26

the vehicle they transport prisoners in

1:47:29

and went to the airport

1:47:35

then they opened the door.

1:47:36

And you saw the small jets standing there

1:47:39

with officials here and there.

1:47:42

"Well, this looks interesting.

1:47:45

"This may be it. Okay."

1:47:46

And then the soldiers accompanying me,

1:47:49

they were really very nervous.

1:47:52

It was a very sort of...

1:47:53

It's actually one of these scenes from a movie,

1:47:55

like that darkness with a jet standing there

1:47:57

and cars here and there.

1:48:00

It was actually like that in a very strange way.

1:48:02

Then we moved few steps closer to the aircraft

1:48:09

then a British official came

1:48:12

and he said, "Okay, remove his cuffs.

1:48:15

"I'm gonna take custody of him."

1:48:16

He told me in a nice way,

1:48:19

like, "Don't do anything silly. Okay?

1:48:20

I said, "Don't worry. I don't plan to."

1:48:22

(laughing)

1:48:24

Then he took me up into the aircraft and that was it.

1:48:26

Interviewer

Did you feel like you were going home then?

1:48:30

-

It felt, as I said, it's a series of oppression,

1:48:33

so you try not to let go quickly,

1:48:37

still try to control yourself,

1:48:41

control your emotions, make sure that...

1:48:44

It could be a hoax, it absolutely could be.

1:48:46

But I did not, I have to say,

1:48:50

I did not allow that to take over my feelings,

1:48:51

I was excited, I was happy,

1:48:55

although I hadn't slept

1:48:56

because it was in the middle of the night,

1:48:59

but I couldn't go to sleep in the aircraft.

1:49:00

I was very excited, you know, very anxious

1:49:02

very happy as well.

1:49:04

Interviewer

And you landed in London.

1:49:06

-

Landed, an airport very near London,

1:49:09

it's called Luton, it's a small town,

1:49:13

about 30 miles from London.

1:49:16

Interviewer

And your family was there for you?

1:49:18

-

No. No family,

1:49:20

but I spoke with my family,

1:49:21

I was taken in a police car.

1:49:23

There was a short interview at the airport,

1:49:25

few formalities, very short, very reasonable,

1:49:30

Then I was taken in a police car to my family.

1:49:35

In the car I called my family and I spoke with them

1:49:37

and an hour later we were together.

1:49:39

Interviewer

A few things about, just looking back.

1:49:45

and then I guess we're done.

1:49:48

One of the questions that we ask

1:49:52

that we find interesting answers

1:49:54

is what if there was any...

1:49:55

You could tell us what negative experience

1:49:59

Guantanamo was again if you want.

1:50:01

But sometimes we find interesting answers.

1:50:03

Also, if you say, was anything positive

1:50:04

out of the experience in Guantanamo?

1:50:07

-

I think if you probably asked me this

1:50:10

when like a month or two after I left Guantanamo,

1:50:13

I may have few more positive things to say probably.

1:50:16

I think facing death

1:50:23

or at least thinking that you're facing death,

1:50:25

I think prepares you for a lot.

1:50:28

And you start looking at life

1:50:32

from a very different angle.

1:50:35

Like your criteria has changed.

1:50:38

For example, one of the things that

1:50:41

a little bit astonished myself

1:50:45

and I was surprised myself as well,

1:50:47

is that material things,

1:50:49

I don't seem to care too much about those.

1:50:51

And I thought, that's again, why I think I'm not normal.

1:50:55

Like people should appear

1:50:58

more attached to material thing, really.

1:51:01

But I, for reason on another note, I'm attached,

1:51:04

but I feel less so

1:51:08

than would otherwise normally be acceptable.

1:51:10

I promised myself many things in Guantanamo.

1:51:18

One of which "I'm gonna keep in touch

1:51:21

"with my mom as much as possible

1:51:23

"and my family and my loved ones." Which I try to do.

1:51:25

I hope I'm trying to implement that as much as possible.

1:51:28

I promised myself I will not be angry

1:51:31

with the ones that I love.

1:51:33

I'm afraid that hasn't quite worked out

1:51:35

to the level I would like it to,

1:51:36

but I used to tell myself, "Look, Bisher,

1:51:39

"if you can control your anger

1:51:41

"with the people you dislike.

1:51:42

"So you might as well control it

1:51:44

"with the people you like and you love."

1:51:45

But I think they seem to push the wrong buttons, I think.

1:51:48

So we need to negotiate

1:51:51

on which buttons to press, I think,

1:51:52

but I'm working on that.

1:51:56

Quite a few things, I think I've learned a lot.

1:51:57

I've learned a lot about myself, about people generally,

1:51:59

about life,

1:52:06

assessing people.

1:52:10

One of the strange,

1:52:13

like sometimes you look at somebody and he looks mean

1:52:16

and you think, "There's no good in this guy.

1:52:19

"If I asked him for a bit of debt,

1:52:21

"he's not gonna give it to me."

1:52:24

So one day in Bagram, strangely enough,

1:52:26

one of the soldiers which looked to me very mean

1:52:29

and I needed something

1:52:33

and I thought, "Don't ask him. He just looks too mean."

1:52:37

And then I told myself, "Look, Bisher, ask.

1:52:41

"There's no harm in it."

1:52:43

Basically, I was fasting at the time, voluntary fasting,

1:52:44

and I wanted to eat my meal a little bit later.

1:52:49

And basically it's very strict time

1:52:52

when you can eat the meal.

1:52:54

And I said, "Bisher, I'll ask."

1:52:55

So I asked him, he said, "Yes. Okay."

1:52:57

I thought, "Very strange."

1:53:00

He's mean looking, but he was like good at heart.

1:53:03

And this is one of the strange things.

1:53:08

And then another incident years later in camp five

1:53:09

where somebody who's really impressively looking.

1:53:13

You think if you were to ask him something,

1:53:17

he will never say no.

1:53:18

Then you ask him of something very pathetic

1:53:20

and he says, "No."

1:53:21

So you learn this thing that looks of people

1:53:22

is not really the main thing you judge people from.

1:53:25

There are people have hearts.

1:53:28

Somebody could be really good looking,

1:53:31

no heart or small heart.

1:53:33

And somebody could be mean looking, but big heart.

1:53:36

And these are things which really

1:53:39

in real world you can't see

1:53:41

because you're not in that situation

1:53:43

where you really need something

1:53:44

is important to you to that level.

1:53:46

It's all official, like "Okay, it's from nine to five

1:53:48

"and okay, you come on time, this is gonna be done.

1:53:50

"You're late, come tomorrow."

1:53:53

Like everything is official,

1:53:55

everything within a normal parameters,

1:53:56

but those extreme situations

1:53:59

where you can see the good and bad of people.

1:54:03

And then again, you learn about yourself.

1:54:05

You think, "Okay, am I doing things right?

1:54:08

"Why am I selfish?"

1:54:12

Again, I learned that selfishness becomes exaggerated

1:54:14

when you're deprived.

1:54:19

These are really very long topics

1:54:26

that we're trying to really be skim through things really.

1:54:29

But you fight that selfishness inside of you.

1:54:33

Think, "Gosh. I don't like to see myself so very selfish."

1:54:37

And you fight it and sometimes you win,

1:54:40

sometimes selfishness wins and it's a struggle.

1:54:42

So you understand yourself, you understand others.

1:54:45

And again, one, it will never be the same,

1:54:51

but I hope the lessons learned, I will always have.

1:54:53

And I hope my old me,

1:54:58

part of that,

1:55:03

a big part of that, I like to have back,

1:55:04

like me, who I feel I am.

1:55:08

I like to have that back.

1:55:11

And I think that takes time,

1:55:13

that takes a long time, a lot longer than I had thought.

1:55:15

Interviewer

But you're working on it as you say.

1:55:19

-

Definitely.

1:55:20

Funnier we meet today,

1:55:23

but really, few things happened the last two, three weeks

1:55:24

and very strange and nothing...

1:55:30

It's not like acting for this interview.

1:55:32

But about a short time ago, really,

1:55:35

days, weeks, couple of weeks,

1:55:38

I started looking at myself and I thinking,

1:55:40

"Well, maybe I am closer to

1:55:43

"where I want to see myself than I think I am."

1:55:49

I'm feeling closer to normal.

1:55:53

I'm close, I'm getting. I could actually sense it.

1:55:56

I wrote a letter to somebody

1:56:02

and I wanted to tell them that I skipped it,

1:56:03

but I was telling them like,

1:56:05

they're going through a hard time,

1:56:06

I tell them, "look, it's been over four years

1:56:09

"and I'm, just now, I am feeling,

1:56:11

"I can sense that I'm getting normal."

1:56:15

I can actually sense.

1:56:18

Before I could sense, "Definitely, I'm not normal.".

1:56:19

And that's when I told my wife this, on many occasions,

1:56:23

I said, 'I am not normal."

1:56:26

But now I can, very slightly,

1:56:27

I can dare say, I am getting there.

1:56:31

Interviewer

Changing the topic.

1:56:36

Just, do you have any thoughts about the Americans

1:56:38

that you wanna share with us as you're an American?

1:56:42

-

"Do you have your passport?

1:56:45

"I'd like to check your ID first."

1:56:47

Well, funny, the talk about Americans.

1:56:49

I'm not very sure if this phrase does exist

1:56:52

in my mind or it doesn't.

1:56:55

I'd like to think it doesn't,

1:56:56

particularly, exist in that context.

1:56:57

I have family who are Americans.

1:57:00

My aunt, her children and other family members as well.

1:57:03

I think America is a very big society,

1:57:11

is a very big, very diverse.

1:57:17

And there's a very big difference between Mr. Average,

1:57:21

that guy who, "Okay, I'm gonna join the army," for example.

1:57:27

And for example, the intellect of the US

1:57:31

is a big contrast as well.

1:57:34

By the way, I have some American friends.

1:57:43

That's I mean, by the way.

1:57:48

My lawyer who is American,

1:57:52

I am still in contact with him,

1:57:54

and we were on very personal terms.

1:57:56

He comes here, he visits.

1:57:59

I went out for a walk with him with his son

1:58:01

and that sort of very personal relationship.

1:58:04

I have no problem with that

1:58:07

and I hope that will continue forever.

1:58:08

However, I think where the problem

1:58:13

is the establishment, the US establishment.

1:58:16

I don't think it's a clean, honest, fair establishment.

1:58:20

I think it's, I don't wanna say the word evil

1:58:26

because that's a very big word,

1:58:31

but I think there is evil there.

1:58:33

And I think there is bad there

1:58:35

and I don't think it's as clean or as honest

1:58:40

as the image they tried to portray is.

1:58:45

I think the image, it's on one side

1:58:49

and reality is on another.

1:58:52

And I think it's unfortunate that the American people

1:58:56

are being held responsible for the action

1:59:01

of the American establishment.

1:59:04

Logically, is fair.

1:59:07

You've elected the government,

1:59:09

the government will represent you.

1:59:11

The government is messing up the world,

1:59:13

really on every level, almost.

1:59:16

It's killing, is imprisoning people.

1:59:19

I think it's not acting responsibly

1:59:24

even towards the poor nations.

1:59:27

There are a lot of flaws in that establishment

1:59:29

and it's very unfortunate and sad

1:59:34

that the American people,

1:59:36

they're having to pay a price for the establishment,

1:59:40

which really, although they have elected,

1:59:44

I don't think it represented them in any shape or form.

1:59:46

But I'm not very sure how your system works.

1:59:50

Why would I elect somebody who really doesn't represent me?

1:59:52

But I think this is for the American people.

1:59:55

Interviewer

Did you you see a change,

2:00:00

did you see some light when Obama was elected?

2:00:01

-

Funny, you mention that.

2:00:05

You mentioned quite a few funny things today,

2:00:06

although this is not a funny program.

2:00:08

When Obama was elected,

2:00:14

everybody was very,

2:00:19

not necessarily impressed,

2:00:24

but maybe impressed, optimistic.

2:00:25

A lot of positive emotions came into the scene.

2:00:27

I found myself one day giving a talk

2:00:32

at a reprieve fund raising event.

2:00:36

So when was that?

2:00:40

2000 and....

2:00:42

Interviewer

He was elected in November '08.

2:00:44

He became president '09.

2:00:47

-

So this was the talk, the event,

2:00:49

I think, end of November, 2008.

2:00:51

So it was just after Obama was elected.

2:00:54

and everybody was so happy and excited, it's Obama

2:01:00

and my American friend, the lawyer,

2:01:03

he was very optimistic.

2:01:06

I was very pessimistic

2:01:09

and I was very upset with myself why I so pessimistic.

2:01:10

I said, "Look, everybody is optimistic.

2:01:13

"And you're the only pessimist among them.

2:01:15

"What's going on? Like why?"

2:01:18

Anyway, so I gave this talk and I said,

2:01:19

again, in my pessimism.

2:01:23

I said, "Look, I don't think Obama

2:01:24

"is gonna make any difference.

2:01:26

"This is how things are going."

2:01:29

So I was pessimistic.

2:01:33

I said, "But I hope I am wrong on you're right."

2:01:35

Something to this extent.

2:01:37

And really, I was really taking myself off.

2:01:40

I thought, "What a stupid thing to say.

2:01:44

"Why are you like this? Blah, blah, blah."

2:01:46

Anyway, so years passed

2:01:49

and I'm sad to say that I was right.

2:01:50

I was, and now I speak with the same people,

2:01:54

we disappointed, everybody's so disappointed.

2:01:57

But I thought, "How could I?

2:01:59

"I shouldn't understand America more than the American?

2:02:01

"I really shouldn't. I'm an outsider.

2:02:03

"Why should I?

2:02:05

"Okay, he's very charismatic, he's quite a character.

2:02:07

"It's a big deal, as in a black president.

2:02:13

"It is a big deal. Absolutely."

2:02:15

But policy that you can't touch that.

2:02:17

I think policy is going on a road,

2:02:22

different to politics.

2:02:26

There are two separate paths

2:02:28

and that's where we are today.

2:02:33

Interviewer

Do you have a question?

2:02:37

Is there something that I didn't ask you that--

2:02:39

-

Well, there are a million things, not a million,

2:02:41

let's say a 10,000 things

2:02:44

you could have asked me, you didn't,

2:02:45

but we don't need to go into that.

2:02:47

I think we've covered enough.

2:02:48

Interviewer

There's not something you wanna add to the--

2:02:50

-

No. (laughs)

2:02:53

Interviewer

I could have asked you more questions,

2:02:55

but sometimes it might be something you just wanna tell me.

2:02:55

-

No. I'm trying to put everything behind me.

2:02:58

I'd like to think that I've turned the page

2:03:04

although I seem to look back every now and then.

2:03:06

This program makes me look back.

2:03:09

I've tried to turn a page and not look back.

2:03:11

Really, I wanna move forward. I don't wanna look back.

2:03:14

I really don't wanna look back.

2:03:16

Interviewer

Well, we're really thankful.

2:03:19

It was an amazing interview.

2:03:21

Before we end it, Johnny needs 20 seconds

2:03:23

of quiet time just to close it and then we can end this.

2:03:26

Johnny

Beginning of time.

2:03:32

Ended.

2:03:50

Rawi, Bisher al - Interview master file

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