Gorman, Candace - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

So you ready?

0:05

Okay, good afternoon.

0:06

-

How are you today?

0:08

Interviewer

Pretty well, yourself?

0:09

-

Very well, thanks.

0:11

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:13

for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo project.

0:14

And we invite you to speak of your experiences

0:19

and involvement with detainees

0:22

who were held Guantanamo Bay in Cuba

0:24

or are still be held at the base.

0:26

We are hoping to provide you an opportunity

0:28

to tell your story in your own words,

0:30

recreating an archive of stories

0:34

so that people in America

0:36

and around the world will have a better opportunity

0:38

to understand what you and others have observed

0:41

and contributed and experienced.

0:45

Future generations most know what happened at Guantanamo.

0:49

And by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:53

We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us.

0:57

-

Thank you for having me here today.

1:01

Interviewer

My pleasure, believe me.

1:02

And if at any time during the interview

1:04

you would like to take a break, please let us know.

1:06

And if there's anything that you say

1:08

that you realize you want to retract

1:10

just let us know and we can retract.

1:12

So I'd like to begin with some basic information.

1:14

Your name?

1:17

-

Candace Gorman.

1:19

Interviewer

And your country of origin?

1:20

-

The United States.

1:22

Interviewer

And hometown?

1:23

-

Chicago, Illinois.

1:23

Interviewer

And birth date?

1:25

-

March 8th, 1954.

1:26

Interviewer

Oh happy birthday coming up.

1:29

-

Coming up, thank you.

1:30

Interviewer

Your age is?

1:34

-

56, math was never my strong skill.

1:37

Interviewer

Right, your marital status?

1:41

-

I'm married.

1:45

Interviewer

With children?

1:46

-

Three children.

1:47

Interviewer

And your education?

1:48

-

A law degree.

1:50

Interviewer

And your current occupation?

1:52

-

I'm a civil rights and human rights lawyer.

1:54

Interviewer

Okay, well, so I'd like to begin

1:57

by a little back on how you became involved in Guantanamo.

1:59

-

Well, in 2005, I got an announcement

2:04

from one of the bar associations

2:07

that I belong to in Chicago,

2:09

the Chicago Council of Lawyers

2:11

announcing a luncheon about Guantanamo.

2:13

At this time, I had just settled my three biggest cases

2:17

class action cases that have been going on for 12 years.

2:22

I didn't understand that this luncheon

2:28

was a solicitation luncheon.

2:29

I thought it was just an information luncheon

2:31

but I just thought, you know, I don't know enough

2:34

about Guantanamo and I should be getting up to speed on it.

2:36

And it was a year after the Supreme court

2:38

had said everyone's entitled to attorneys

2:42

and that they were all entitled to a process

2:45

to determine if they were enemy combatants.

2:47

And so I just thought

2:50

this would be an interesting luncheon to go to. (coughs)

2:51

Much like today

2:55

I didn't go to the luncheon because I had bronchitis.

2:56

And so, I had actually signed up to go and didn't go.

3:00

So when they sent an email a couple of days later

3:05

they obviously didn't take attendance.

3:08

And they said, thank you for being at the luncheon.

3:10

And by the way, just reminding you there's 200 men

3:14

without attorneys still at Guantanamo.

3:16

And that was the beginning of my saga

3:20

because once I read that email,

3:22

I knew I needed to know more.

3:24

I didn't understand why in a country

3:25

with hundreds of thousands of attorneys,

3:27

that they couldn't find 200 attorneys

3:30

to represent these 200 men.

3:33

So I took the first step

3:36

which was to call the person who sent out this email

3:37

a nice individual from a big law firm

3:41

who very kindly talked with me

3:43

about what was involved and said

3:46

if you're interested in knowing more

3:48

we're gonna do a conference call in about 10 days

3:50

and you can listen in the last about two hours.

3:53

You can ask questions

3:57

there'll be people on there that are representing detainees.

3:58

And also people like you

4:01

who are interested in finding out more.

4:05

So I did the call.

4:09

I was shocked that many of the things I heard in the call

4:11

probably the most shocking at the time

4:16

there's been many more shocking things since

4:18

was that there was no attorney-client privilege

4:20

with our clients, that our mail would be read,

4:22

the mail from the detainees to us would be read.

4:26

And we ducted if there was things that the country

4:29

our government thought was classified

4:33

or embarrassing as it turns out,

4:37

and my mail to them would be scrutinized.

4:40

They say not read, but I never believed that

4:43

'cause we had to send it in an open envelope

4:45

and my notes would be read.

4:49

That was the part that bothered me the most

4:52

that I would go down and visit with my client

4:54

and be trying to put together a defense for him

4:57

and that the government would be able to read it.

5:02

That's not our system.

5:04

And I really on this phone call,

5:06

I really fought this whole idea.

5:09

I said, you know, what if I just don't take any notes

5:10

I don't wanna help the government learn more

5:13

about my client.

5:15

I don't wanna be another interrogator

5:16

but then I learned quickly

5:19

that you won't be able to use the information

5:21

you get from your client

5:22

if you don't put it down on paper somewhere.

5:24

And so I reluctantly came to the conclusion

5:27

and more so even when I started representing the men

5:31

that their stories needed to be told

5:34

and they needed to be told out there in society.

5:36

So I did take good notes and would leave things

5:39

off that I didn't wanna share with the government.

5:43

Interviewer

You had a strong civil rights background.

5:46

Is that what inspired you to take these cases

5:49

or was there some connection there at all?

5:51

-

Well, my background is civil rights.

5:53

That's what my whole practice has been about.

5:54

I guess, probably that leaning

5:57

towards wanting to enforce our civil rights laws

6:00

in our constitution is probably what drove me

6:04

into the Guantanamo cases.

6:07

I think more, it was the sense

6:09

that our country was doing was wrong

6:11

and that I wanted to at least have a foot in the door

6:14

and trying to stop it.

6:18

Interviewer

Did you think as a woman

6:20

that would be a handicap?

6:21

-

I didn't really think about it at the time.

6:23

I've been a solo practitioner almost my whole career.

6:25

And I've been practicing now for almost 30 years.

6:30

I think something I read makes me

6:32

like my math is not that great.

6:35

I think it was 23 or 24 years

6:37

when I first started representing my first client.

6:39

And so by then, you know

6:42

I just didn't pay attention to issues of gender.

6:45

I mean, if someone wasn't treating me right

6:48

I would just call them on it, you know?

6:51

So I did notice that there weren't very many women

6:53

doing this at the time.

6:57

There were a lot that came on as the years went by

6:58

but it didn't affect me in any way.

7:02

Interviewer

So could you take us,

7:05

so after you were inspired by that phone call,

7:06

what happened next?

7:09

-

The next step was if we were still on board

7:11

to find out more, we had to take a trip to New York city.

7:13

The Center for Constitutional Rights

7:18

did a seminar,

7:20

two or three day seminar every other month for new recruits.

7:23

And so I went to New York city in the fall of 2005

7:28

and I would say there were about 20 or 25 attorneys

7:33

at this information session.

7:38

And we listened to information

7:41

not only about the court process,

7:43

which there wasn't much of a court process at that time,

7:47

everything was stayed

7:49

which means that nothing was moving in the courts.

7:51

The judges were not hearing any issues,

7:54

but we learned about some of the basics

7:58

that would be involved if the cases ever became on stayed.

8:00

But CCR also was a wealth of information

8:04

as far as having a database for us

8:07

to offer documents and stuff so that we didn't have to worry

8:09

about coming in cold and having to recreate the wheel.

8:13

And they talked to us about Islam.

8:17

They had an actual person from the Islamic Society

8:20

and I'm trying to remember the name of the organization

8:28

when he came and spoke to us for about an hour and a half.

8:30

One of the Tipton Three had just been released

8:34

a couple of months earlier and he was video conferenced.

8:36

And that to me was probably the most shocking realization

8:40

for me of just what was involved in this.

8:46

And I remember very vividly him telling his story.

8:49

You know, they were just these three happy-go-lucky guys

8:52

and off one of them getting married

8:55

and they were off to Pakistan

8:57

and decided to take this little side trip

8:58

you know, to Afghanistan

9:01

and what happened to them.

9:05

And I remember him talking

9:08

about being rounded up by the Northern Alliance

9:09

and put in these big shipping containers.

9:12

And he said, he thought he was gonna suffocate in there.

9:15

And he said, he could hear the Americans out there

9:18

the Northern Alliances who rounded them up

9:21

he could hear the Americans, he was British,

9:23

he understood the accent

9:25

and said some of the men started yelling for air

9:28

that they were suffocating.

9:31

And the Northern Alliance, he thinks took machine guns

9:32

and just shot at the shipping container.

9:35

And they laughed, "Now you have some air."

9:39

And he said, there were probably about 75 men

9:42

that started out in this shipping container

9:45

and about 30 came out alive.

9:47

And all I could think was, you know

9:49

this is really bad.

9:53

And about two years ago, the Northern Alliance

9:56

actually the site of this massacre,

10:01

from today, the Northern Alliance

10:05

actually went to destroy the site

10:07

of where this atrocity happened

10:10

because of a review that was being done

10:12

because there were so many men killed

10:16

at that time in these shipping containers.

10:17

I don't remember

10:20

but I remember when the news report was out

10:22

that they were out there destroying the site.

10:24

So it couldn't be investigated.

10:26

Interviewer

So you were discovering a lot more

10:29

than you expected to?

10:31

-

I was.

10:34

And probably the last thing

10:36

that they did with us was to talk about

10:38

the effects that this could have on us, personally

10:41

the things that we were now witnessing

10:44

and now hearing and what that we would be witnessing

10:46

and hearing in the future and ways of protecting ourselves.

10:49

And I remember thinking at the time, well, you know

10:53

whatever happens to us

10:58

it can't be half as bad as what happened to these men.

10:59

But it was very early on

11:03

that I realized that I needed an outlet

11:05

when I started realizing the things

11:08

that happened to my two clients.

11:10

And that's when I started writing

11:11

about my clients and about the whole experience,

11:14

just not only to make a record of it all,

11:18

but to let me get it out

11:20

so I wasn't just thinking about it and keeping it pent up.

11:22

Interviewer

I want to talk about that,

11:26

but I'm just interested,

11:27

I think people will be interested in just the continuity.

11:28

So, when you finished that session, what happened next?

11:30

-

I took a plane back to Chicago

11:33

and by the time I got back to Chicago

11:35

I had an email with the referral of my first client.

11:37

And it was an email saying

11:41

that they had assigned to me, Mr. Al-Ghizzawi.

11:42

And they didn't know very much about him

11:46

but his name had shown up on a number of lists

11:48

that were being passed around the base, the jail

11:52

for men to sign up if they wanted attorneys

11:58

and that was the only way names were getting out

12:01

at this point, the government was not releasing the names

12:03

of the men at Guantanamo,

12:06

you, know, our government's usual way

12:09

they said it was because of their privacy concerns.

12:11

So we had no real list of who was there

12:15

just the ad hoc lists that were being passed

12:17

around by the men who wanted attorneys.

12:20

And then those being passed on to the few that had attorneys

12:23

whose attorneys would then pass them

12:27

on to the military to get cleared.

12:28

And amazingly enough, they did get cleared.

12:30

And that's how CCR put together the list

12:33

of people out there that were wanting attorneys.

12:36

And so they told me, Mr.Al-Ghizzawi

12:40

had signed like six or seven separate lists

12:42

and that he really wanted an attorney.

12:45

So I was happy that he wanted an attorney.

12:48

I also knew he was Libyan

12:52

and that he was living in Afghanistan.

12:53

But that was really all I knew about him at that time.

12:56

Interviewer

And so what happened after that?

13:00

After you got that email?

13:02

-

After I got the email,

13:04

I started working on the habeas petition for my client.

13:05

I also started to do some research.

13:09

I'm trying to recreate how I learned

13:16

that he had a brother, living still in Libya.

13:19

But Mr. Al-Ghizzawi was Libyan living in Afghanistan.

13:22

And somehow early on, I realized that he had a brother

13:27

and it might've come from another attorney.

13:31

'Cause that was the way we usually found out things.

13:33

One attorney would go down to the base

13:37

their client would say, "Oh, you know, Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

13:39

wants an attorney."

13:42

And then when I was assigned the case,

13:44

I sent out an email and I said,

13:48

"I'm going to be representing Mr. Al-Ghizzawi,

13:50

here's the number, his ISN number is 654.

13:53

And if anyone's going down there,

13:58

will you please tell him I'm representing him?"

13:59

And I got a number of emails back at that time saying

14:01

"We are so happy because he's been wanting an attorney."

14:04

And one of those attorneys told me

14:08

that he had a brother in Libya.

14:09

And so I started trying to track him down.

14:13

It took years before I tracked him down,

14:16

but I eventually did.

14:18

Interviewer

Why did it take years?

14:19

-

Because it's so hard to find out anything

14:22

that goes on in Libya.

14:24

And I didn't know anybody in Libya.

14:26

So I was kind of hit and miss

14:28

trying to find someone that would be helpful.

14:31

And when you mentioned Guantanamo, people get less helpful.

14:34

So I had made a couple of contacts in Libya.

14:38

One was a medical doctor who said he would

14:40

try to find Mr. Al-Ghizzawi's brother.

14:43

And then I just happened to mention

14:47

that I was representing this brother

14:49

that was in Guantanamo click.

14:52

You know, that was, yeah.

14:54

And there's a lot of fear in Libya

14:56

still about the reach of Muammar Gaddafi.

14:57

So people just didn't wanna get involved.

15:01

Interviewer

So can you describe

15:05

when you finally go down to see him,

15:06

what that was like, your first flight

15:08

and when you first arrived?

15:12

-

My first trip down there was almost 10 months later.

15:13

It took a long time for me to,

15:16

not so much to get my security clearance

15:18

but to get court approval to go

15:20

because of all these stays

15:22

that were in place to go down there

15:23

not only do you have to have the security clearance

15:26

but you have to sign off on the protective order.

15:28

The protective order sets up all the rules

15:30

about what you can say and what you can't say

15:33

about the fact that you have to turn over your notes

15:37

when you meet with your client, et cetera.

15:40

And the judge would not let me sign the protective order

15:43

because the case was stayed.

15:48

So after a couple of tries

15:51

I finally got the judge to enter the protective order

15:54

in Mr. Al-Ghizzawi's case,

15:58

this was after I got an email from another attorney

15:59

saying your client is ill and he's got liver disease.

16:02

And I knew he had some illness.

16:07

I didn't know what it was.

16:08

So I filed another motion with the court

16:10

saying please let me go down there

16:13

until the protective order.

16:14

And here's an email I got from some guy, I don't know

16:16

saying my client's ill.

16:19

And at that point

16:20

the judge relinquished, allowed me to go down.

16:21

And so he actually gave me approval

16:25

I wanna say, in the end of May

16:28

and then you have to do a process.

16:30

Well, like the good military people there are there.

16:32

You have to fill out a form

16:35

telling them when you wanna go.

16:37

And I had a conference coming up in Puerto Rico.

16:39

I believe this was at that time.

16:42

And so I thought I would like to do the trip

16:44

on one side or the other of that conference.

16:47

So I ended up going the first week of July,

16:49

I believe in 2006.

16:52

And I see a flight from Chicago to Fort Lauderdale.

16:55

And then you get on this little ten sitter

17:01

without a bathroom for your three to four hour flight

17:03

to Guantanamo, depending on the winds,

17:07

depending on how heavy the plane is,

17:10

if they have to stop to refuel.

17:12

And then you land in this military air base.

17:15

I remember being shocked, not shocked as overstating that

17:20

but just surprised at the terrain.

17:23

I was expecting it to be more lush

17:25

and it was very desert-like and especially in July.

17:27

So I landed there on a Saturday,

17:31

I believe it was Friday night actually.

17:34

And my visits were scheduled for Saturday, Sunday,

17:37

Monday with Mr. Al-Ghizzawi.

17:39

And by this point I had already taken on a second client,

17:42

Razak Ali, and so I was scheduled to meet with him

17:47

on Tuesday and then fly back on Wednesday.

17:50

And I landed on a Saturday.

17:54

I found out I was the only attorney

17:58

at the base that weekend.

18:00

So my first visit to Guantanamo,

18:01

I was there by myself

18:05

without the help of my other fellow habeas counsel

18:06

to kind of show me the ropes.

18:11

I had read everybody's description of what to expect

18:13

and the rules and all that stuff,

18:16

but it was still a little bit unnerving

18:18

to go down that first time

18:20

and not have anyone to kinda bounce things off of.

18:22

But I knew that I was gonna see Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

18:25

on Saturday morning

18:29

and that I would have to take the 8:30 or 8:40 ferry

18:31

outside the CBQ, the combined bachelor's quarters

18:35

which is where we stayed on the leeward side.

18:39

And then we take the ferry across to the windward side

18:46

to where the base is and where the jail is

18:49

and where all those symbols of American consumption,

18:52

McDonald's, Kentucky Fried Chicken.

18:56

Interviewer

Before you met your client

18:59

what were the impressions that you had

19:01

when you arrived or when you flew

19:03

equal to what you expected?

19:06

Did they meet your expectations or were they very different?

19:08

-

Except for the terrain itself,

19:11

there weren't any major surprises.

19:14

I think I was pretty well versed on what, you know

19:16

what the CBQ was gonna be like,

19:19

what wasn't there and what was there.

19:21

Interviewer

Were you nervous?

19:24

-

I was nervous, you know, I had read what Cheney said.

19:25

These men were the worst of the worst.

19:29

I didn't know if my client

19:32

was gonna be the worst of the worst.

19:33

And I didn't really care

19:35

because my feeling was that the process was important

19:37

and our judicial system is important

19:41

and we don't just hold men without charges.

19:43

And if he is the worst of the worst,

19:45

then tell him, charge him.

19:47

So, but it's still nerve-wracking and...

19:49

Interviewer

Were you in fear?

19:52

-

I wasn't in fear

19:53

but I would just say I was a little bit nervous

19:55

a little bit apprehensive,

19:57

but I felt good about what I was doing

19:59

and I don't think I was afraid

20:02

in that sense of the word,

20:06

like I don't wanna go in there.

20:07

I did want to go in there

20:09

and I wanted to meet with a client.

20:10

And actually at this point we had exchanged one letter.

20:12

It's kind of weird, but I got a letter from him in the mail.

20:15

I don't know how that happened.

20:21

It had a stamp on it.

20:23

I just don't know how, but he told me that he knew

20:26

I was representing him

20:28

and that he was very glad

20:30

and he wanted me to come and meet with him

20:33

because he was ill and he didn't want to explain

20:35

his health problems in a letter.

20:37

So please try to come and see him as soon as I can.

20:39

And I had written back to him

20:42

and I found out later he did get my letters.

20:44

So we had a little bit of an exchange

20:46

before I went down there.

20:48

But that was just about it.

20:50

Interviewer

He spoke English?

20:51

-

He spoke English.

20:52

His English was not quite as good then as it is now

20:53

but we were able to communicate

20:56

and I brought a dictionary with me.

20:59

Later they wouldn't let you bring dictionaries

21:03

in the meetings.

21:04

And then later again, they would.

21:05

So it's, you know, kind of those rules changed all the time

21:07

depending on, you know, who was the guard at the time.

21:10

Interviewer

Could you describe then

21:14

your first meeting with him,

21:15

where it was, and how it was?

21:17

-

I went to Camp Echo.

21:19

Camp Echo was the facility

21:20

where most of the meetings took place.

21:23

And actually it's the facility

21:25

where most of the interrogations take place.

21:27

So it's kind of a double-edged sword

21:29

to go meet with your clients in this place

21:31

where they've been treated very badly by other individuals.

21:34

Camp Echo was made up of about,

21:39

I would to say six, eight, 10

21:42

of these big storage container units

21:44

that are divided into two cells with two separate doors.

21:50

So you walk in, you know

21:54

they have this big metal door, that's locked.

21:59

They opened the door

22:02

and when you look inside, there's a table.

22:05

My client was sitting at the other side of the table

22:07

shackled to the ground.

22:10

On the side was a cell and with a bed and a toilet

22:12

that had its own little mesh wire

22:18

into separated off from the rest of the room.

22:21

And then there were two other chairs

22:25

at the table where he was.

22:27

It was very sparse, very dark and very hot.

22:29

I remember thinking

22:34

that I'm just like sweating profusely.

22:36

It was like 95 degrees and no air conditioning.

22:40

And I was just like dripping wet.

22:44

And finally, Mr. Al-Ghizzawi said,

22:47

"You know, I think that air conditioner works.

22:50

I turned it off before you came here."

22:53

I said, "Oh, well, you know

22:56

if you're comfortable, I'm comfortable."

22:57

I did turn it on for a little while

23:01

cooled down a little bit.

23:02

But most of the time we sat

23:05

in the heat because of his illness.

23:06

He didn't like to be cold.

23:07

So, he was sitting at this little table,

23:10

just waiting for me in this tan jumpsuit

23:13

and not jumpsuit two piece suit and flip flops.

23:17

And he actually smiled when I walked in

23:23

and he seemed pleased that I was finally there.

23:26

He had his own attorney and he did.

23:29

I started to put my briefcase down and pull out my papers.

23:34

And one of the things

23:36

that I was doing was bringing him the habeas petition

23:37

that I had filed and some papers that I'd filed in court

23:41

so could go over them with him

23:45

and I was kind of arranging my stuff.

23:47

And I had actually brought a headscarf.

23:50

I wasn't really comfortable with that whole idea

23:51

but I thought if, you know, my client is really picky

23:54

about it than I would wear it, and I forgot about it.

23:57

And when I was going through my briefcase

24:00

was down on the bottom

24:01

so I kind of pulled it out and said,

24:02

"Do you want me to wear a head scarf?"

24:04

He says, "No, I don't care."

24:06

So I was like, good.

24:08

This is a good step.

24:09

So he said, "How do I know you're an attorney?"

24:11

And I kind of looked at him and listened,

24:15

"Well, I've got my card."

24:19

I just pulled out my business card.

24:22

And he, he laughed and he said,

24:23

"You know, anyone can make a business card."

24:26

And I had heard, and I didn't think about this in advance

24:28

but I had heard that the interrogators were masquerading

24:31

as attorneys at one point.

24:34

And it must've been after 2004

24:36

after the Supreme court said attorneys were allowed

24:38

but before attorneys were actually getting down there.

24:41

So then I pulled out my little wallet

24:44

that I have with me today.

24:48

It's a little wallet that I've had since I became a lawyer.

24:50

And in it is every bar card

24:54

that I've had every year in Illinois.

24:56

They give you a little bar card

24:58

that shows you're a current member of the bar

25:00

and you're still licensed.

25:02

Now, I've got close to 30 of them in my little wallet,

25:04

but at that time I had like 23 or 24

25:07

and I started pulling them out.

25:10

You have to realize it's just jam packed in there.

25:12

So it's like hard to even pull these out

25:15

and I'm pulling them out.

25:17

And one, two, this is last year's

25:18

this is next year or the year before.

25:21

And I did like seven or eight of those.

25:24

He said, "Okay, I believe you're a lawyer."

25:25

And then we actually spent three days

25:29

talking that first trip

25:32

when I was meeting with other attorneys

25:34

and other attorneys showed up on Monday

25:36

my visits, first two visits were Saturday and Sunday.

25:39

And I think some other attorneys showed up Sunday night.

25:42

Maybe it was Monday night (coughs)

25:47

excuse me.

25:50

But I'm sorry I lost my train of thought.

25:53

Interviewer

Well, you finally had some other ways

25:57

to prop up against and get some feedback--

25:59

-

I did, which was good

26:01

because I had a little issue that trip.

26:03

The day before I was leaving,

26:06

I decided to try to see Razak Ali

26:08

but I didn't have the protective order entered in his case.

26:13

And I'd filed a motion with the judge

26:16

saying I'm a sole practitioner

26:17

I'm flying down to see my other client

26:20

would be really nice if I could see this client too.

26:23

And he decided to have a hearing

26:27

on Friday afternoon before I was leaving

26:29

I guess maybe it was Thursday afternoon

26:32

and I was leaving Friday.

26:35

And I did it by phone because I was leaving

26:37

for Florida and I couldn't get DC first.

26:41

And so he was very nice and said, I could do it by phone.

26:44

And, you know, I don't even remember quite what the point

26:47

of the hearing was.

26:50

I think it was to give the government a chance to fight it.

26:52

And he was trying to figure out,

26:57

the judge was trying to figure out

26:58

if there was a way he could let me go down this one visit

26:59

but then not have the protective order still in effect.

27:02

It was kind of like, let her go now

27:04

but maybe not in the future.

27:07

But anyway, as it turns out, he entered the order.

27:10

He entered the protective order

27:12

and he told the government to tell them at Guantanamo

27:14

that I was going to see my other client, excuse me.

27:19

And he entered an order

27:23

which I've fortunately got a copy of.

27:26

And I changed my request form

27:29

that when you're making a visit,

27:33

you have to put down who you're going to see

27:35

in which days and stuff.

27:36

So I put in Razak Ali for the Tuesday meeting.

27:38

And when I got down to the base, they told me

27:41

after a couple of days, I said,

27:45

you know I just want to make sure

27:47

that everyone knows I'm gonna see this other person

27:50

on Tuesday, because this was done late in the day.

27:52

And I was telling my escort on Sunday,

27:55

I said, "You know, I have a court order.

28:00

And the judge said that I could see him."

28:01

And he said, "Oh, court orders don't work here.

28:03

We consider those advisory."

28:07

And I said, oh,

28:10

so I just made my little notes.

28:12

Interviewer

What level of--

28:13

-

This was the petty officer

28:15

that was our escort,

28:17

of my escort at that point.

28:19

He was kind of a creepy guy.

28:21

And one of the other things, as I'm driving along

28:24

it's just me and him in this little minivan.

28:27

And we're just making small talk.

28:30

He had children that were younger than my children

28:33

and he was talking about his kids.

28:37

And I said,

28:40

"Well my son's gonna be starting college this fall.

28:40

And that's gonna be interesting

28:44

having him go off to college."

28:45

And he said,

28:47

"Oh yeah, but at least you'll have your daughters."

28:48

And I'm thinking, I didn't say anything about daughters.

28:51

What kind of file do they have on us?

28:54

And who gets to read it?

28:57

I mean, you know what I mean,

28:58

it just kind of made me irritated.

28:59

Interviewer

Did you say anything?

29:03

-

I didn't say anything.

29:04

I just made my notes.

29:05

And the one other thing

29:07

that the same guard that we had to turn

29:10

over our notes every day.

29:12

So when you meet with your client, you hand over your notes.

29:14

And at that point, you just handed them

29:18

to the guards who put them in an open envelope.

29:20

If you're meeting your client the next day

29:23

and then they would just hand you the envelope back.

29:25

Now they seal the envelope.

29:27

But at that point they didn't.

29:29

And so the day before I'd seen Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

29:32

and I had a lot of notes about his medical condition

29:35

and medical issues.

29:38

And so when I saw guard the next day

29:40

and he hands me my notes,

29:42

just off the top of his head, he says,

29:44

"You know, if your client has any medical issues

29:46

you should let us know because you know

29:49

we have really good medical facility here

29:51

and they like to know about medical issues.

29:53

So if your client has any medical issues..."

29:56

And he said this like three times

29:57

and I'm thinking

29:58

"God damn it, he read my notes."

30:00

But that was the first thing.

30:03

And then there was the court orders don't work here.

30:04

And then there's, you know,

30:06

"Don't worry, you've got your daughters."

30:07

So I didn't like this guy.

30:09

He was very different than my first escort

30:12

who was very nice,

30:13

but the long and the short of it is

30:16

Tuesday, well, actually Monday comes

30:17

and I'm still reminding people,

30:20

Tuesday I'm meeting with Razak Ali and it's the same escort.

30:22

And he said, "You know, I checked on him.

30:26

That's not as name."

30:28

And I said, "Well, government never raised any issue.

30:30

They're the ones that, you know

30:34

told the judge I had the right person.

30:37

So whoever he is with this number, ISN 685

30:39

that's who I'm supposed to see."

30:44

"Well, ma'am the name's not right.

30:45

I don't know what, we're gonna have to see what we can do."

30:47

So the long and short of it is I never got to see Razak Ali.

30:50

They had excuses.

30:55

They didn't, they couldn't figure out who it was

30:57

I was supposed to see.

31:00

And Tuesday, the day I was supposed to,

31:02

I think they thought on Monday that they had convinced me

31:06

that I wasn't gonna be able to see him,

31:09

but I just wasn't willing to just sit back

31:10

at the combined bachelor's quarters for the day.

31:13

So I went back over with the ferry

31:17

and with the other attorneys and said,

31:18

"You know, I wanna push this.

31:21

I wanna find out what's going on.

31:22

'Cause I have a court order to see him."

31:24

And this was the nice guard again, the nice escort.

31:27

And he said, "You know, I've been trying to track this down.

31:30

I can't figure out what it is, but you can't see him.

31:32

We can't figure it out."

31:36

And I said, "Okay, I'm going to give you a piece of paper

31:38

and I'm gonna spell the name I have for him on there.

31:41

And if you could be so kind

31:44

when you figure out what the name is"

31:46

'cause I really thought this was a legitimate concern.

31:49

It was my first trip there.

31:53

I didn't realize when you get his name

31:54

what you think his name is, can you write it

32:01

down on this same piece of paper

32:02

so that when I get back I can try to figure this out?

32:04

He said, "Okay."

32:08

So he actually gave the form,

32:09

my piece of paper with three names written down on it

32:12

to another attorney that was coming back

32:15

earlier in the afternoon.

32:16

And so I had Razak Ali, I think Abdul Razak Ali

32:18

and the first name on the list was Abdul Razak Ali

32:22

and then there were two other names.

32:26

And it turns out there was confusion about his name

32:29

as I learned later.

32:31

But it was him.

32:32

I mean, they knew him by that name too.

32:34

So I was mad then when I got that piece of paper.

32:36

Interviewer

Were there other people above the escort

32:41

that you spoke or is just the escort--

32:43

-

I spoke to an attorney that was there

32:45

who was supposed to be checking up on this for me too

32:49

a young attorney,

32:52

military attorney who was gonna call me

32:54

on Monday afternoon and never did.

32:57

So I think he thought I was gonna just, you know

32:59

fall by the wayside.

33:01

And so on Tuesday I was trying to follow up with him.

33:03

He was in a meeting and I never did a talk with him again.

33:06

I went back and I filed a motion for sanctions.

33:13

Interviewer

Was there anybody else at the base

33:18

who you interacted with?

33:19

-

I think it was just the one military attorney

33:23

'cause this was my first trip down there.

33:26

So they actually have an attorney come and meet with you.

33:27

And he went over kind

33:31

of the rules and that's the one I contacted

33:32

when I was having the problems.

33:34

Interviewer

And do you know why they tried to block you

33:36

from seeing your client?

33:39

-

No, but I'll tell you what happened,

33:40

when I filed the motion for sanctions

33:42

and I have to backtrack a little bit

33:44

and it's a little peculiarity of mine.

33:45

I like to bird watch.

33:49

And so when I was going down to Guantanamo

33:51

I asked the DOJ attorney, if I could bring my binoculars

33:53

I didn't want to get shot, you know?

33:57

And he said, as long as,

33:59

and he of course wrote back

34:00

and said, no, one's ever asked this before.

34:01

He wrote back to me and he said,

34:05

"Yeah but just double check with them

34:08

when you're down there."

34:10

But as long as you're watching for birds

34:11

on your side of that Island, where the lawyers are

34:12

not on the side where the base is, it should be fine.

34:15

So when I met with the military lawyer that morning

34:19

that first day when he was going over the rules

34:22

he was a very nice young attorney

34:24

and he was laughing and he said his dad was a birdwatcher.

34:26

And of course I was free to watch the birds

34:29

on that side of the Island.

34:31

And I had actually had picked up a book and stuff.

34:32

So I filed this motion for sanctions

34:36

I think it was motion for contempt of court

34:41

'cause I had a court order

34:43

and Judge Walton was the judge at that time.

34:45

And he had a hearing on my motion

34:48

and the government filed their response

34:52

along with an affidavit from a different military attorney,

34:54

Captain McCarthy was the head JAG at the time.

34:58

And Captain McCarthy who I'd never met, never seen,

35:03

never talked to, did this long affidavit

35:06

in the first person about our interactions

35:08

and how I did not want to see my client

35:11

that day I wanted to go birdwatching.

35:14

And I was furious of course, when I got this

35:18

I mean all my attempts to try to see my client

35:21

and he's blowing it off, like, you know,

35:24

like this is just some nut who's down there

35:26

to go birdwatching.

35:28

And I ended up getting affidavits

35:29

from the other three attorneys who were in the bus

35:32

with me Tuesday morning, who were watching

35:34

all of my interactions trying to make sure

35:36

that this visit took place

35:39

including the person who brought the note back

35:41

over to me with the names.

35:43

And so we had our hearing in front of Judge Walton

35:46

and I asked him to strike the affidavit of McCarthy

35:50

because he had no personal knowledge

35:52

and Walton said, "No, I'm not gonna strike it.

35:55

It just goes to how much weight I'm going to give it."

35:59

And so we did our arguments

36:02

and the judge asked a lot of questions of me

36:03

and then of the DOJ attorney.

36:08

And of course, McCarthy didn't show up for this hearing.

36:09

I did do a notice to request to produce them

36:12

at the hearing, but I guess he was too busy.

36:15

And well judge Walton said,

36:18

"Well, I've decided how much weight

36:20

I'm going to give this affidavit, zero.

36:22

And I want you to get her back to the base on your dime"

36:26

is what he told the DOJ.

36:31

It never happened, but it almost happened.

36:33

I do have an order,

36:36

court order from them

36:37

that they have to pay me for that flight.

36:38

When I finally did end up going again

36:41

but they've never paid it.

36:44

And then the case got stayed

36:46

after the 2006 Military Commissions Act was passed.

36:47

And then the case got dismissed

36:52

'cause Judge Walton dismissed all of his cases

36:53

because of the 2006 Military Commissions Act.

36:57

So I never have gotten the money yet, but I will.

37:00

Interviewer

Did you try again?

37:04

-

No, because when the cases were reinstated in 2008

37:05

that's when they were reinstated with Boumediene.

37:11

I really thought my priority is to get the hearing

37:13

from my client and that the, you know

37:16

600 and whatever dollars can wait for another day.

37:19

But I don't forget those things either.

37:22

Interviewer

Can you describe your client

37:24

Razak Ali 'cause he told us a little bit about...

37:26

-

So I didn't get to meet Razak that time.

37:29

I had to meet him my next visit down,

37:31

which was a couple of months later

37:33

at the time he's 40 now.

37:36

So he must have been about 35 at the time.

37:39

And I thought he was a lot younger.

37:41

He was a very young looking man.

37:44

I thought he was in his early twenties.

37:46

I was surprised when I found

37:48

out how old he is, very good natured--

37:49

Interviewer

Nationality?

37:52

-

Algerian.

37:53

And he's one of the Algerians that would be happy

37:55

to go back to Algeria, unlike some of the Algerians.

37:57

And in the first meeting, it's always kind of tricky.

38:01

You know what you talk about, you don't wanna interrogate

38:03

you don't wanna start asking questions.

38:06

So when we met, I talked like I did with Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

38:08

I talked a lot about myself and my family and my practice.

38:14

And Mr. Al-Ghizzawi was more talkative himself

38:17

and Razak Ali was more reserved.

38:22

He really liked eating.

38:26

When I was coming back at lunchtime,

38:28

he asked me to bring him pizza,

38:29

vegetarian pizza with lots of hot peppers on it

38:32

and strong dark coffee.

38:35

I mean, he knew what he wanted to know and was very funny.

38:38

Interviewer

Did he trust you were his attorney?

38:40

-

Yeah, he never asked that question.

38:42

Never, I mean, he just was fine that I was his attorney.

38:45

In the afternoon. I was kind of at a loss

38:52

as to what to talk about with him

38:54

because I didn't wanna interrogate him.

38:55

We weren't just having the kind of a nice rapport

38:58

that I kind of had immediately with Mr. Al-Ghizzawi.

39:01

So I asked him if he was reading any books,

39:04

you know did he get to read any books there?

39:08

And he said, "Yeah, I was reading Harry Potter."

39:10

And that started a long conversation

39:13

'cause I was reading them with my kids.

39:16

Although I don't have a very good memory for what happens

39:18

in which book, but one book was out in English,

39:20

maybe volume five, but it wasn't out in Arabic yet.

39:26

So the guards were like telling them

39:29

what was happening in that book.

39:31

But he wasn't sure.

39:33

So he's like asking me these questions

39:34

and I'm like, I think this is the book

39:36

where Dumbledore dies or something

39:38

and he's like, "Oh no."

39:41

And my poor translator,

39:44

now for him I had to have a translator.

39:46

He does not speak in English.

39:49

And my translator was like,

39:50

"I don't know how to translate these words."

39:51

Ask abandoned, Dumbledore and all this.

39:54

And, and he was like, "It's okay, I know the words."

39:58

So it was a very funny afternoon.

40:01

And we talked about the book in great length

40:03

and that kind of cemented our relationship.

40:07

Although there was a time,

40:10

I would say almost a year period when Razak Ali

40:11

would not meet with me.

40:15

I met with him two or three times and things had gone well.

40:18

And I think the second meeting

40:21

he told me about his experiences.

40:23

He was subjected

40:27

to some really horrendous torture and biogram.

40:28

And so he was explaining that to me.

40:32

And I didn't really understand who Abu Zabaida

40:35

was at that time,

40:40

but he was in the same guest house as Abu Zabaida.

40:42

He didn't know him.

40:46

And as it turns out

40:47

the military is now and the government is agreed

40:49

Abu Zabaida isn't who they thought he was.

40:51

But they thought Abu Zabaida was a really bad guy.

40:54

And they thought anyone who was in those houses

40:58

that house must be really bad too.

41:01

And of course he knew nothing.

41:04

And so they were trying to torture it out of him.

41:06

So it took me a while

41:09

to like piece all this together to figure out

41:11

what was going on and why he had been treated so badly.

41:14

I mean, worse than the usual.

41:17

So it was after that meeting or after the third meeting.

41:20

And I took a lot of notes

41:26

about what had happened at the time of his arrest.

41:28

And it seems that someone came in to see him

41:31

after our meeting, that he had told some things to me

41:34

that he hadn't told the military.

41:37

Nothing damaging,

41:40

nothing that would show him to be, you know, a bad guy,

41:42

but that he had said something that he hadn't told them.

41:46

And so he thought I had turned over my notes,

41:51

or, well, turned over my notes.

41:54

But he thought when he was telling me,

41:57

even though I was very careful to tell both my clients,

41:59

you know, I can't guarantee any kind of confidentiality.

42:02

I have to turn over my notes

42:05

but I think something happened after that

42:07

meaning he didn't wanna see me.

42:10

And I tried for several meetings

42:12

when I was there to see Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

42:15

to meet up with him and he kept refusing.

42:17

And so I didn't try again for, you know

42:21

for almost a year.

42:24

I wanna say a good 10 months or so went by.

42:26

And then one time I was there and I just,

42:29

I think I'll try to see him again

42:31

and see if things have changed.

42:33

He was happy to see me.

42:35

We never mentioned anything.

42:37

I mean, I didn't want to ask him why

42:39

if he didn't wanna broach the subject

42:41

but I think it was partly, well, he told me later

42:44

that he was very concerned that they asked him

42:48

about things that he had told me in the meeting.

42:50

But then the other thing

42:52

was that there was a little power play

42:54

going on in the prison cell area, a pod that he was at.

42:55

And some of the men were saying

43:00

don't see a lawyers, that's making it worse.

43:02

So he put two and two together and decided stay away from me

43:05

but then decided after some period of time

43:08

that it wasn't getting any better without an attorney.

43:13

So I brought him pizza so...

43:16

Interviewer

Do you think

43:19

they overheard the conversations?

43:21

Do you know what how the government found out

43:23

what he said to you?

43:27

-

I don't know for sure.

43:30

I can't remember.

43:31

What about it I put in my notes,

43:32

it had to do with the people that were in his guest house.

43:34

And so I don't know if it was that they were listening

43:37

and I always thought they listened in,

43:41

but I can't remember it off

43:45

if much of that was in the notes.

43:47

Interviewer

Why do you think they listened in

43:49

can you describe what they told you

43:51

or what was it like in the room

43:54

when you did meet your client?

43:56

-

The protective order permits the military to put a camera

43:58

in the room, supposedly that's for our protection

44:03

so they can watch to make sure,

44:06

your client is not strangling us or something.

44:08

So there's this camera

44:13

in the side of the room, in the corner,

44:14

that's looking down at the table

44:16

and the protective order also says

44:18

that the sound has to be off of it.

44:20

You know, I don't know how you check

44:23

for such a thing,

44:24

but I never I never trusted that the sound was really off

44:26

the military and as you know, from my previous comment

44:31

the orders don't work there.

44:34

They're only advisory.

44:36

And I just didn't think they would be taking

44:37

that advice too strongly.

44:39

Interviewer

Did you ever have a situation

44:42

with Al-Ghizzawi in terms of his not wanting to see you?

44:43

-

One time he was moved to camp six.

44:47

This was just such a travesty.

44:51

When I, just to backtrack, there's several camps

44:54

at Guantanamo where the prisoners are kept

44:58

and Mr. Al-Ghizzawi and Mr. Razak Ali

45:01

were both in camp four when I first made my visits there.

45:03

Camp six was a new construction by Halliburton

45:08

and it had not opened until the end of 2006.

45:13

And when it opened

45:18

they moved Mr. Al-Ghizzawi into it.

45:20

And camp six was built as a super max prison.

45:23

Super max, is that the right word?

45:29

You know, the solitary confinement all the way.

45:31

And so they're here.

45:35

So they had this client who was ill.

45:38

He had hepatitis B and tuberculosis, mild mannered

45:39

as it turns out, he was found not to be an enemy combatant.

45:44

We can talk about that later

45:48

in his original combat status review tribunal

45:50

and was one of those people that never had problems.

45:54

He never had disciplinary problems or anything.

45:57

He's very respectful.

46:01

And so when he was moved to camp six,

46:04

I was mortified that they would take him and put him there.

46:07

And this nice young lawyer that I talked

46:12

about earlier being the one I met that first day

46:14

ended up being my permanent and sole escort.

46:17

When I came to the base, he was assigned to me,

46:25

I was chosen for this honor

46:29

because captain McCarthy was so angry.

46:31

And so I was taken away from all the other attorneys.

46:34

And I was picked up by this lawyer

46:38

and driven around by this lawyer.

46:40

And it was a very nice young lawyer.

46:41

And, you know, I said to him, "Why do I get this honor?

46:44

I mean, I'm happy to talk with you and stuff."

46:47

He said, "Captain McCarthy wants to make sure

46:49

you never have a problem here again."

46:51

I said, "Well, tell him I appreciate it."

46:54

So actually it was nice in a way

46:57

I got to the front of the lines and all of that stuff

46:58

but I'm sure McCarthy thought this was somehow

47:01

would make me feel uncomfortable.

47:04

I actually liked the attorney

47:06

but I asked the nice young attorney.

47:09

I said, "Why in the world did Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

47:11

get moved here?"

47:13

My fear was, it was because of me

47:14

because of my fight with McCarthy

47:16

that this was gonna be a way of punishing me.

47:19

And he said it was totally random.

47:22

The men that were moved

47:25

into camp six was a random selection.

47:26

I don't know which is worse,

47:28

to randomly select people

47:29

or to put them in there for punishment.

47:32

But it was an awful place.

47:34

And the first I saw Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

47:36

in December of 2006.

47:40

And then the next time I saw him was February of 2007.

47:43

And when I saw him in February, I'm pretty sure

47:49

this is the visit where he didn't wanna see me.

47:52

He was wearing orange.

47:57

Orange is the color for when you're in trouble.

47:59

He had never been in trouble before.

48:02

He didn't wanna see me.

48:04

I sent him a note.

48:06

I said, you know, "I came a long way

48:07

even if you don't wanna spend any time with me

48:09

just let me talk with you for a few minutes."

48:12

And I went into, at that point they let me meet

48:15

with him in camp six, they stopped allowing meetings

48:18

in camp six after a few months.

48:21

But at the very beginning,

48:24

they had this tiny sweltering room

48:25

that they allowed meetings to take place.

48:28

And I went in and he was in his orange jumpsuit,

48:31

crouched on the floor, just huddled.

48:35

He was freezing cold

48:38

'cause the building was air conditioned

48:40

and he looked awful.

48:43

And he told me that he was being punished

48:47

because when he went for a shower timer,

48:50

bathroom timer or something,

48:52

he had toilet paper in his pocket

48:53

and you're not allowed to have anything in your pocket.

48:55

And he didn't want me to see him in orange

48:58

because I would think ill of him for being punished.

49:05

And he was at the whole time, he was like shivering.

49:09

And it was just awful.

49:13

And he said, "Tomorrow I will be back

49:16

in my tan outfit tomorrow you can come and see me."

49:18

I said, "Okay."

49:23

And I went and talked with the attorney

49:23

the JAG about, you know, the fact that he's freezing cold

49:26

and what I found out is as part of their punishment

49:30

when they're wearing the orange

49:33

they take away the thermal shirts.

49:34

So they had thermal shirts that they could wear

49:36

underneath the orange, underneath their outfits.

49:38

And they take that as way as punishment.

49:43

So, I mean, it was just awful what we were doing.

49:44

And I think that's the only time

49:48

that he didn't wanna see me.

49:52

Interviewer

Did you ever think for yourself

49:55

that maybe he's being treated like this

49:57

because you were such a passionate defender of him?

49:59

-

That thought had crossed my mind

50:04

and it worried me and I talked with him about it.

50:07

I told him I really hope

50:10

that it's not because of me

50:12

that you're being treated like this.

50:14

And, you know, was like

50:15

"You're gonna still come visit, right?

50:19

I said, "Yeah."

50:20

Interviewer

Do you have any basis for that?

50:22

-

No, just the fact that it was so...

50:23

It didn't make any sense

50:29

most of the men that were put in six at the time

50:30

were the ones that were causing trouble.

50:34

Even though the JAG told me it was you know, at random,

50:36

I didn't think it was at random

50:39

but that's just my speculation.

50:41

I don't have any facts.

50:43

Interviewer

And from discussions with other attorneys,

50:45

you haven't had any confirmation from anyone else?

50:48

-

No.

50:50

Interviewer

Could you talk a little bit

50:54

about his medical care and your issues with that?

50:56

-

Yeah, well, the medical care is easy to talk about.

50:58

It was non-existent.

51:00

After I had my first visit with him.

51:04

I took down all of his signs,

51:06

everything I noticed about his health,

51:10

like his very yellowish skin

51:12

very jaundice skin,

51:14

it was very thin but he was also very bloated

51:18

and he showed me his stomach

51:23

and his back had these black lines.

51:24

And it was a lot of things that, you know

51:26

I couldn't figure out.

51:28

And I asked him about symptoms, you know

51:29

and he described all of his symptoms to me.

51:31

He was not shy or you know

51:35

nervous about talking with me about these things.

51:37

And so when I got back,

51:40

I still didn't know what was wrong with him.

51:43

Of course, I'm not a doctor

51:45

but I took his symptoms and talked with a liver specialist.

51:47

And I don't know, I think it was 'cause of the jaundice

51:52

that I ended up trying to talk with the liver specialist

51:55

and actually through my own family physician

51:58

he recommended a liver doctor that he went to school with

52:00

who was at the University of Chicago.

52:05

And he was a very nice doctor who met with me

52:07

went through all of the symptoms

52:11

and he said,

52:13

"It sounds like he's got some kind of liver issue."

52:14

It might be hepatitis,

52:19

Libyans have, there's a lot of hepatitis in Northern Africa.

52:20

This was before I had any indication.

52:25

And so what I was trying to get from him

52:28

and he ultimately did, for me,

52:31

was an affidavit saying

52:33

that based on these kinds of symptoms

52:35

there are a lot of possibilities

52:38

and they need to be looked at,

52:39

and this is some of the things

52:42

that should be done or whatever.

52:43

And I used that to try to get medical records.

52:45

And I filed a motion with the court

52:48

asking for his medical records

52:50

and attached to this affidavit.

52:53

And the government responded with an affidavit

52:55

from Dr. Salick, who was the chief medical doctor

52:58

at the time there, he is now deceased.

53:02

And he admitted in his affidavit

53:05

that my client had hepatitis B,

53:11

but said that he didn't wanna be treated for it.

53:14

And there was also something contradictory in it.

53:18

And I don't remember the exact nature

53:22

of the contradiction but it had to do with the liver count

53:24

that it was steady liver count

53:29

when they took him in in 2002, up until that point.

53:32

But then they hadn't done

53:38

any kind of liver counts since 2002.

53:40

So I was like, that's odd.

53:43

So, you know, I did a reply to the judge

53:47

you know, basically saying, you know,

53:49

just on the basis of their own affidavit,

53:51

I should get the records.

53:53

And the judge said, no, this was Judge Bates.

53:56

He said, no, because otherwise that would put me

54:01

in a position of trying to dictate the medical care

54:04

of the facility and he trusted the military (coughs)

54:07

to be doing and saying the right thing.

54:13

And if they say Mr. Al-Ghizzawi didn't want medical care.

54:15

That was fine, that was it.

54:17

Interviewer

Did you ask Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

54:20

if he wanted medical?

54:21

-

Yeah, and I got an affidavit from him.

54:22

Interviewer

Saying that he did?

54:25

-

Saying that he did.

54:26

Interviewer

What happened to that?

54:28

-

You know, the word of the detainees

54:29

is like less than nothing.

54:32

So the fact that Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

54:35

will swear that he wants medical care

54:37

meant absolutely nothing to that judge.

54:40

And I can say from other affidavits that I've done

54:43

anything that we file means nothing.

54:46

That's just what the military says.

54:50

So it went nowhere.

54:52

At the same time, I connected up with a Swiss doctor

54:56

who was also a liver specialist.

55:00

And a wonderful man.

55:07

And I had this great idea

55:10

that if I could get a country to take him,

55:14

Mr. Al-Ghizzawi and a doctor to care for him

55:17

that I could get the military

55:21

or the state department to move him there.

55:22

It seemed logical.

55:24

Logic doesn't work real on this game.

55:27

So I actually went to Switzerland.

55:30

I connected up with the Swiss doctor through a friend

55:32

of my my son's best friend, he's Swiss from high school.

55:36

And his parents, his father is a doctor.

55:42

And so I just asked him at a dinner one night,

55:45

I said, "Do you know anyone in Switzerland?

55:47

that, you know?"

55:49

he was like, "Oh, Jorg, you know, he's wonderful.

55:50

He's an activist, you know, and he's liver specialist

55:53

and he's the best man in the world."

55:56

I thought they knew each other.

55:58

I didn't know that this was just someone who, you know,

56:00

idolized him.

56:02

So I sent him an email

56:04

and he found the email for me, email address.

56:06

And he sent Jorg an email and said, you know,

56:08

"So-and-so has said I should contact you.

56:14

And you know, maybe you could help.

56:15

And my client is at Guantanamo."

56:17

And I had a very funny exchange with him

56:19

'cause it was about a week later.

56:21

And he said, you know, "I finally, I Googled your name.

56:23

I thought you were like those people

56:25

from Nigeria that want my bank account."

56:26

So he said, "But then I Googled your name.

56:30

And I realized you are really an attorney

56:32

and you are doing some things.

56:34

So we corresponded and he ended up doing another affidavit.

56:37

And I think, I can't remember

56:42

the exact, how it all played out

56:46

'cause this was back in 2006

56:48

but what happened was I filed another motion

56:51

with the judge for the medical records.

56:54

And then I attached another affidavit

56:56

from the doctor at the University of Chicago

56:59

and I one from Jorg in Switzerland

57:01

and basically trying to get the military

57:05

to agree to do some of these tests

57:07

and at least tell us what the results were.

57:10

And Dr. Salick did another affidavit

57:13

and it contradicted his first affidavit

57:17

in a material way.

57:20

And I don't remember the exact details

57:22

but I remember talking about it with both doctors

57:24

and they said that it doesn't make any sense.

57:26

It had to do with the dates that he had said

57:29

in the first affidavit they had done stuff.

57:32

And what he was saying now,

57:34

so everything was very suspicious.

57:38

And the judge said, no again.

57:42

Interviewer

Did the military actually ever go

57:45

to your client and ask him if he wanted medical care?

57:48

-

He went into the doctors many times, you know

57:52

at the medical clinic.

57:56

Interviewer

On his own?

57:58

-

On his own,

I mean, as far as you can do it on your own,

57:59

I mean he would ask to see the medical people

58:00

and what he would be told most of the time

58:03

when he went there was,

58:06

we're gonna have someone coming in

58:07

who's a specialist in this area.

58:09

And when that person doctor comes in

58:11

we'll have them look at you.

58:13

And in 2008, I wanna say 2008

58:15

sometime in 2008, a specialist did come in

58:20

that had something to do with liver disease

58:23

and he did meet, he or she,

58:27

I can't remember which met with my client

58:29

and said that they were gonna do some tests on him

58:32

to see what was going on.

58:35

And that the test would be in the next two or three days.

58:37

And they never came back for him.

58:39

So he never got those tests.

58:42

And, you know, again I would raise those issues

58:44

with the court, but to no avail.

58:46

Interviewer

I had also heard that at one point

58:52

your client thought he had AIDS.

58:54

-

Yeah.

58:56

Interviewer

How did that happen?

58:57

-

I wanna say it was in 2008 as well, or maybe 2009.

59:01

He had gone for a doctor's appointment,

59:05

a medical appointment.

59:08

And at the medical appointment,

59:10

one of the staff said to him, you know,

59:13

"We're gonna see about what kind of treatments

59:17

we'll give you for the for the AIDS

59:19

that you have, for AIDS."

59:21

And he said, "Are you telling me I have AIDS?"

59:23

"Well, yeah, didn't they tell you you have AIDS?"

59:26

And he said, "No."

59:28

But he had suspected

59:30

that there was something wrong with his blood work

59:31

because when he had some blood work done

59:34

a couple years earlier, two medical people came in

59:36

and just looked at him and talk amongst themselves

59:39

and we're pointing to him and he just always thought

59:41

there's something weird going on here.

59:44

So to him, this was all making sense.

59:46

He has AIDS

59:48

and they've known it since, you know, for years now.

59:49

So he sent me a note, a letter saying that,

59:53

"You know, I was told I have AIDS."

59:57

And so cases were stayed again.

59:59

This was when we were waiting for Boumediene to be decided.

1:00:04

And I filed an emergency motion with Judge Bates.

1:00:08

And well, the first thing I did

1:00:12

was I sent an email to the attorney,

1:00:15

the DOJ attorney, and I said,

1:00:17

"My client was told he has AIDS.

1:00:19

Could you confirm this for me?"

1:00:24

No response.

1:00:27

So I sent him a second one.

1:00:29

"I just want you to confirm or deny."

1:00:31

And he wrote back this very snide email saying,

1:00:33

"I'm not privy to what's in your client's medical records."

1:00:36

And I wrote back and I said,

1:00:40

"I would appreciate it if you'd make yourself privy."

1:00:41

So did an emergency motion

1:00:44

and I was able to attach, you know,

1:00:47

this little snippet of a email where he, you know,

1:00:49

refuses to even check.

1:00:52

And so they filed a response saying,

1:00:55

"Well now the checked and he doesn't."

1:00:58

And they said he didn't have AIDS.

1:01:02

And for one thing

1:01:03

it's made my client's life very difficult.

1:01:06

I don't believe he does have AIDS.

1:01:10

I mean, this is years now and he's had no symptoms

1:01:12

of anything except for all the liver stuff.

1:01:15

But I mean, I knew a couple of people, you know

1:01:18

10 years ago, 20 years ago,

1:01:23

I guess closer to 20 years ago that had AIDS

1:01:25

back when there weren't much in the way of treatments

1:01:28

and I watched them deteriorate

1:01:31

and there wasn't anything like that going on

1:01:33

with Mr. Al-Ghizzawi

1:01:36

so I really didn't think he did

1:01:37

but I knew this was a main trick.

1:01:39

And I think that's part of the torture

1:01:41

that they were using at Guantanamo

1:01:43

is that they find your weakness and then they exploit it.

1:01:45

And for Mr. Al-Ghizzawi, his fear

1:01:49

because of all his health issues

1:01:51

his fear that they're worse

1:01:53

or that there are more issues going on was prevalent.

1:01:55

And I think they were exploiting it and--

1:01:59

Interviewer

For what purpose?

1:02:01

-

I don't know

1:02:04

that you can say that there's a purpose

1:02:05

when it comes to torture.

1:02:06

I mean, I don't know what their purposes is

1:02:07

in all the things they did, but I just know

1:02:10

that they've tried to find people's fears

1:02:13

like with Abu Zabaida, you know, he had the fear of bugs

1:02:15

so they put him in a box and told him, you know

1:02:19

there's a poisonous bug in there.

1:02:22

I mean, it's, you know, it doesn't make sense.

1:02:25

I don't know what information

1:02:30

you mean he was still being interrogated

1:02:31

all the way up until the time he left.

1:02:34

So what purpose they thought they were getting

1:02:35

out of this, I don't know.

1:02:37

Or if it's just some kind of just, well, anyway

1:02:39

I don't know the purpose,

1:02:43

but I also didn't know what to believe.

1:02:45

And were they hiding the AIDS,

1:02:49

or you know, making this stuff up?

1:02:51

When he eventually got released to Georgia

1:02:58

this has been hanging over him

1:03:00

'cause he he doesn't understand

1:03:02

why they would tell him this.

1:03:04

And so he really believed he had AIDS

1:03:06

and he's had probably six different tests done

1:03:09

in Georgia to confirm and I've pushed him for it.

1:03:14

I said, you know, "The only way

1:03:18

you're gonna feel comfortable

1:03:20

is if you know, you don't have it.

1:03:21

And if that means 20 tests, just go and get them all."

1:03:24

And the last, not the last time I talked to him

1:03:28

about two times ago, he was waiting

1:03:31

for the results for what he said would be the last test.

1:03:32

And so far he didn't have it.

1:03:36

And I'm sure if he did from that last test

1:03:38

he would have told me when we talked last.

1:03:40

Interviewer

Given that he wanted an attorney so badly

1:03:43

at the beginning as you described,

1:03:46

and then he still was there for what six years after that,

1:03:48

did he ever get frustrated with the fact

1:03:53

that maybe attorneys weren't working for him?

1:03:55

-

Not that I wasn't working for him.

1:03:57

He was frustrated a lot with the process.

1:04:01

I always was very upfront with him

1:04:04

about what was going on, you know, what I was trying to do.

1:04:07

I was always filing stuff and I was always trying

1:04:10

to do something to get him spotlighted.

1:04:13

And when Obama, excuse me

1:04:17

when Obama became president and they set up this task force

1:04:19

I got my materials in there right away.

1:04:23

And he was one of the first ones cleared,

1:04:26

but it was frustrating for him.

1:04:29

I mean, you know, and it was frustrating for me.

1:04:33

I mean, this wasn't the court system that I knew

1:04:35

that was acting this way,

1:04:38

but he was always,

1:04:40

for the most part was glad to see me,

1:04:42

wanted to know what was going on in the case,

1:04:45

what I was doing.

1:04:47

And I always brought stuff with me

1:04:48

and always went over those things with him.

1:04:49

Interviewer

I know you were very passionate.

1:04:52

I just wondered he just thought American system justice

1:04:54

wasn't quite what he thought it was.

1:04:57

-

I'm sure he did, but he never said it in those words,

1:04:58

one thing he did tell me

1:05:03

that I found it, one of the sadder things

1:05:05

although there were a lot of sad things,

1:05:08

but he, I was there in the summer of 2009

1:05:10

and we're sitting at that point

1:05:15

the conditions, he was still in camp six

1:05:17

but the conditions had changed

1:05:20

and they weren't in solitary all day long anymore.

1:05:21

And it was just made a remarkable difference

1:05:23

in his outlook (coughs)

1:05:26

excuse me, his health, he just was brighter.

1:05:29

And so we're sitting there

1:05:33

and we're chatting about whatever.

1:05:35

And he said, "Well, you know what makes me

1:05:37

able to go on now?

1:05:40

'Cause I know January, this place will be closed."

1:05:42

And I already knew then,

1:05:46

I mean, no one was saying that out loud

1:05:48

amongst us ABS council.

1:05:50

But we all were like looking and thinking

1:05:53

there's no way they're gonna close this place

1:05:55

in six months.

1:05:58

And I just couldn't tell him that.

1:05:59

I just said, "Well, you know, I know there's, you know

1:06:00

the taskforce is working."

1:06:02

Then he had been cleared

1:06:03

and he knew that, I was allowed to tell him

1:06:04

even if I couldn't tell his wife or brother.

1:06:06

So he knew he was cleared.

1:06:11

We just didn't know where he was going.

1:06:12

But he knew he was gonna be gone by January.

1:06:13

And of course he wasn't, but he was gone by March of 2010.

1:06:16

His was wife was Afghany.

1:06:23

I now know a little bit more about her than I did before

1:06:27

'cause what I knew before was I could never find her.

1:06:30

And they also have a young daughter who he hadn't seen

1:06:34

since she was two or three months old.

1:06:37

He still has not seen her,

1:06:40

but at least he's talked to her

1:06:41

on the phone a few times now,

1:06:42

but it turns out his wife's family

1:06:45

is a more of a nomadic tribe.

1:06:48

So they do have a village that's like the home village,

1:06:50

but they do travel a lot too.

1:06:54

So that kind of maybe explains

1:06:56

why I could never catch up with her.

1:06:58

And she, I don't know how she survived all these years.

1:07:01

I know she has an extended family.

1:07:03

She has brothers and sisters.

1:07:05

Her mother was deceased.

1:07:07

I know her, one of her sisters was deceased

1:07:08

and she was taking care of her sister's children

1:07:11

as well as her own daughter.

1:07:13

It must've been just an awful time.

1:07:16

And Mr. Al-Ghizzawi also has family in Libya

1:07:19

his brothers and sisters

1:07:24

an extended family of seven or eight brothers and sisters.

1:07:27

One brother who I did finally connect up with

1:07:31

probably in 2008 sometime.

1:07:34

And I don't remember,

1:07:37

I know Mr. Al-Ghizzawi gave me a phone number for him.

1:07:38

And it was probably missing a number here or there,

1:07:42

but somehow, eventually I connected up with him

1:07:46

and then we kept in somewhat regular contact.

1:07:49

I would call him when I could have a translator.

1:07:52

He speaks a little bit of English too

1:07:55

but I would call him every couple months

1:07:57

every three or four months and just update him

1:07:59

on my efforts and on his brother's condition.

1:08:01

Interviewer

I'm gonna talk a bit more about

1:08:08

on your whole experience in Guantanamo

1:08:10

but just to close the book on Al-Ghizzawi

1:08:11

could you just tell us how he was captured?

1:08:16

'Cause I think it's interesting.

1:08:18

-

He was living in Jalalabad that's, you know

1:08:20

a medium-sized city in Afghanistan.

1:08:25

He was a shopkeeper with his wife.

1:08:27

They made, they sold honey.

1:08:29

They had just expanded to make it a bakery too.

1:08:31

They sold spices.

1:08:34

When he says,

1:08:37

"Shopkeeper, Ms. Gorman, when I say shopkeeper,

1:08:38

I'm not talking big shop, little shop."

1:08:41

So it was a little shop somewhere in Jalalabad.

1:08:45

And when the allies, when the coalition of the willing

1:08:48

started their attack on Afghanistan

1:08:54

they started bombing Jalalabad as well.

1:08:56

And so he took his wife and daughter and said,

1:08:58

"I'm gonna take you to the village where your family is."

1:09:01

And I know he said it should have been a very short trip

1:09:05

but should have been like an hour and a half

1:09:07

but it took about a full day to get there.

1:09:10

And after he got there

1:09:13

and they were in the house of his in-laws

1:09:16

I think he said it was a day or two at most.

1:09:20

And someone came in, knocked on the door

1:09:23

and said turn over, the Arab

1:09:26

and you won't have any problems.

1:09:28

And one of the things that people don't realize

1:09:30

is that when we were dropping all those bombs

1:09:32

we were also dropping pamphlets, flyers

1:09:34

and we were offering a bounty to the Afghanis

1:09:37

and to the Pakistanis, primarily others as well

1:09:40

to turn over the terrorists and murderers

1:09:43

which was taken to mean the Arabs

1:09:47

and that we will get enough money

1:09:49

to care for your family or village,

1:09:51

your extended families for the rest of your life.

1:09:56

I mean, it's a dream come true, right?

1:09:58

We will cover schools, education, medical, so turn him over.

1:10:01

So he was taken out of the house.

1:10:06

He was taken to the local jail

1:10:09

where he said they were actually laughing.

1:10:11

He said they were speaking in Pashto

1:10:14

and they didn't realize that he understood Pashto.

1:10:15

And they were laughing

1:10:18

about what they had a bounty for him.

1:10:19

And they were laughing about how much money

1:10:21

they were gonna get for turning him over.

1:10:22

And he was turned over to the Northern Alliance first

1:10:25

and he said the conditions, the way they were treated,

1:10:29

was just really awful.

1:10:32

And he heard that the Americans were coming

1:10:35

to the town and because he spoke English

1:10:37

he tried to finagle his way around

1:10:40

to be in a position where maybe he could talk

1:10:43

to the Americans and get turned over to them

1:10:45

where he thought he would be treated humanely.

1:10:48

And then I remember him saying, it was not so

1:10:51

he didn't use, it's not so humane.

1:10:54

He said, "I didn't realize

1:10:56

that the United States could be worse

1:10:57

than the Northern Alliance."

1:10:59

Interviewer

You said you're in a few of the anecdotes

1:11:05

about him.

1:11:06

Is it any better or worse?

1:11:07

Just telling him you just...

1:11:08

-

(coughs) One particularly sad one.

1:11:13

This was, I don't remember when I wanna say it

1:11:19

seems like I had a lot of meetings with him in 2008

1:11:23

but I think this was also in 2008

1:11:27

and I went to see him and he looked awful.

1:11:29

This was the time when I was really sure

1:11:34

he was not gonna make it,

1:11:36

but a series of meetings I was going to see him

1:11:37

every six or eight weeks because I was so concerned

1:11:40

about his health and wanted to at least monitor it.

1:11:43

And, you know, I'd file stuff with the courts

1:11:46

even though I was ignored,

1:11:48

but you know, he was like bent over and it was hacking

1:11:51

and he was just miserable looking.

1:11:54

But he told me that he had two things for me.

1:11:56

He had written his last will and testament

1:12:03

and he wanted me to make sure

1:12:06

that I got it to his wife and daughter.

1:12:09

And that I would guarantee that when he died

1:12:14

I would have his body tested

1:12:18

so that I would know what killed him

1:12:19

so that his wife and daughter,

1:12:23

if it's anything that they might have

1:12:24

they could be protected.

1:12:26

And I remember thinking there's no way on earth

1:12:28

I would ever be able to get that.

1:12:32

But I didn't tell him that

1:12:34

'cause no point I just said I would do my very best.

1:12:35

And then he had a six page description of all the torture

1:12:41

that he had been subjected to from the time

1:12:50

he was picked up.

1:12:52

And he wanted me to initial in each page

1:12:54

so that when he turned it over to the guards

1:12:58

to mail it to me I would know that I got the same pages

1:13:00

that he had mailed.

1:13:03

And then he read it to me (coughs)

1:13:06

so that I could put it in my notes.

1:13:11

And so we spent a long time,

1:13:15

two days going over all of this

1:13:20

it was a very emotional meeting.

1:13:23

He took out for the first time,

1:13:27

he took out pictures of his daughter to show me

1:13:29

he had received pictures from his wife.

1:13:31

There was no contact for a couple of years,

1:13:33

but then about every six months he would get something.

1:13:35

So he had a couple of pictures of her

1:13:39

and he was showing me the pictures

1:13:40

and she was just this beautiful little girl.

1:13:41

And he told me that he had ripped up all the other pictures

1:13:44

because it was too hard to watch her growing up

1:13:49

and to not be a part of it.

1:13:52

So he read it through this whole litany

1:13:56

of of torture and abuse and psychological (coughs)

1:14:02

his six pages became my 13 pages, (coughs) excuse me.

1:14:08

And so I of course turned over my notes

1:14:22

and he sends the letter.

1:14:24

And that gets to the funny part of the story

1:14:26

which is (coughs) only funny in a six sort of military way.

1:14:30

But he sent me six pages

1:14:36

and the processes when your notes or a letter come

1:14:39

the privileged team, (coughs)

1:14:44

yeah, maybe we take a break from it.

1:14:47

Excuse me, so the process

1:14:52

is when you send your materials,

1:14:54

my client sends a letter

1:14:59

or I send my notes through to be cleared,

1:15:01

it goes to the privilege team,

1:15:04

and then they send you an email

1:15:07

when it arrives from Guantanamo.

1:15:08

And they tell you, you know,

1:15:10

"I've received some notes or I've received a letter

1:15:11

from your client

1:15:14

tell us what you want to do with it.

1:15:15

Do you want it to be cleared

1:15:17

or do you want it put in your secret drawer?"

1:15:18

And so first I got the email saying my notes had come

1:15:22

and that they were available.

1:15:28

So I told them I wanted them processed to be cleared

1:15:31

which means they get read for classified information.

1:15:35

And then I got shortly thereafter

1:15:39

a second email saying a letter had come from my client.

1:15:42

What did I want done with it?

1:15:44

And said, I want process to be cleared.

1:15:46

And you have to tell them it's an Arabic.

1:15:48

So they'd send it to the right person to review it.

1:15:50

And then I got the email saying

1:15:55

that I think it was three pages of my notes were classified.

1:15:56

And then I got the email saying three pages

1:16:04

or two or three pages of my client's letter were classified.

1:16:08

And I'm thinking, well, that's kind of strange.

1:16:14

My 13 pages only three are classified,

1:16:17

but half of his letter to me is classified.

1:16:21

And they sent, I believe they sent me the pages

1:16:25

that are not classified.

1:16:28

So I was able to first didn't work with that.

1:16:31

And of course, letters from my client is an Arabic.

1:16:34

So I had to send it to the translator that translated

1:16:36

the letters from him.

1:16:39

And so the first thing that I was noticing was that stuff

1:16:42

that was in his letter that had been cleared

1:16:48

was not in the notes that I had received.

1:16:53

So they were withholding my notes on a subject

1:16:56

that they were letting his letter clear.

1:17:01

Well obviously not obviously

1:17:07

the converse was true as well, but I couldn't really tell.

1:17:09

I finally went to the secure facility.

1:17:12

I didn't go then as often as I do now,

1:17:15

I went to the secure facility

1:17:18

and I was able to look at my notes

1:17:19

and they don't tell you what on a page

1:17:22

is what they're considering classified.

1:17:27

So all I knew where these three pages were classified,

1:17:30

but they don't like, you know, highlight.

1:17:32

Interviewer

In other words, they keep

1:17:36

the four pages denied you?

1:17:37

-

They're not denied me if I'm at secure facility,

1:17:41

I can look at them there and I could look at them

1:17:43

and I could see, you know, what they're saying

1:17:46

is classified are these three whole pages,

1:17:49

even though it might be just one little thing

1:17:52

on any one of those pages

1:17:54

and you don't know which thing it is.

1:17:55

And it didn't make any sense to me

1:17:59

because the pages that they were withholding

1:18:00

all had information in it that were cleared

1:18:03

in the letter part from my client.

1:18:06

So I was talking with another attorney there

1:18:09

at the time, and I said, you know,

1:18:11

this I don't even know how to handle this.

1:18:14

I don't know what they're saying about my notes

1:18:16

what in there is classified.

1:18:18

And I don't understand it because it looks like everything

1:18:21

has been cleared in this letter that's in these three pages.

1:18:23

And he said, well, he had this problem one time.

1:18:27

And what he did was he took his notes

1:18:29

and broke them down sentence by sentence

1:18:31

and sent one page at a time, you know,

1:18:34

one sentence on a page and send it back

1:18:37

to the privilege team.

1:18:39

So then he could find out what sentence it was.

1:18:40

And I did that.

1:18:43

And I don't remember now what it was

1:18:44

but there was a couple sentences, one from each page.

1:18:48

And I think there was like a word or a name

1:18:52

or something on the third page, I mean it was just crazy.

1:18:57

And it was all stuff

1:19:00

that had either been cleared in my client's letter.

1:19:01

Some of it was stuff that was in my notes twice.

1:19:04

I remember that was one of the things was redacted.

1:19:07

I had it in there twice and they, you know

1:19:09

they called it classified on one page.

1:19:11

And when, you know, released it and cleared on another page.

1:19:14

So I submitted, you know,

1:19:20

those I think it was 23 pages of that one sentence,

1:19:22

one sentences until I found out

1:19:28

which three sentences was involved.

1:19:30

Interviewer

Why couldn't you take his letter with you

1:19:34

when he already had written it

1:19:38

while you were there visiting with him?

1:19:39

-

Because it has to go through the clearance review.

1:19:41

Everything he says to me

1:19:44

which is why my notes have to be cleared.

1:19:46

Everything he says to me is considered classified

1:19:49

until they clear it

1:19:52

and everything he writes is considered classified

1:19:53

until they clear it.

1:19:56

Interviewer

Well, couldn't they take that

1:19:57

with your notes and clear them--

1:19:58

-

(coughs) They probably could but, yeah.

1:20:00

Interviewer

Do you guess that different people

1:20:06

read his letter and your and that's why the consistency?

1:20:09

-

Yeah, that's my guess that doesn't make any sense.

1:20:13

Otherwise it could be the same person who has no memory

1:20:16

of what they just, you know, what they just did.

1:20:19

Interviewer

Did you ever think

1:20:23

that the classified facility

1:20:23

might have an audio, somebody listening

1:20:25

like when you asked the other attorney what to do?

1:20:28

-

You know that would be such a breach

1:20:32

that I find it hard to believe

1:20:35

that they would try that at the secure facility

1:20:36

and because there's nothing they could do

1:20:39

with that information either

1:20:41

because if it became known that they were bugging us

1:20:42

at the one place that's supposed to be our sanctuary

1:20:45

and we are given carte blanche to talk

1:20:49

about anything with the other council there.

1:20:51

So I think if they tried to do something like that

1:20:55

we would find out somehow

1:20:59

because they would only be using that information

1:21:00

for no good so...

1:21:03

Interviewer

So going back, you mentioned

1:21:05

translators, how were translators since you need them

1:21:06

with your other client,

1:21:09

were translators hard to find them

1:21:12

and how did they work with you?

1:21:14

-

There not very many clear translators.

1:21:17

I think for the Arabic speakers

1:21:20

there were five or six kind of regulars

1:21:23

that go down to the base a lot.

1:21:27

And usually because I'm a sole practitioner

1:21:29

and I'm paying for this on my own,

1:21:31

usually what I would do

1:21:34

is send out a note on the Listserv saying, you know

1:21:35

I'd like to go down in the month of April

1:21:38

if anyone's going down and would be willing

1:21:41

to share their translator with me, let me know.

1:21:43

And in the early years, actually a couple

1:21:48

of the big firms would contact me when they were going

1:21:51

and asked me if I was going around this time

1:21:54

and they would actually pay everything.

1:21:58

You know, they would just let me use a translator

1:22:01

for a half day.

1:22:03

And for Razak, that was enough

1:22:04

just to kind of touch base with him,

1:22:07

let them know I'm still there

1:22:08

bring him some food and, you know, check in on him.

1:22:09

And as I said, he's not very loquacious

1:22:13

so we didn't have a whole lot else to talk about.

1:22:17

Al-Ghizzawi I would usually go spend more time with

1:22:20

although when conditions got better for him in 2009

1:22:24

I would just spend a day with him.

1:22:27

And he was usually ready to go back and see his brothers.

1:22:29

And he was, you know, he was obviously

1:22:32

in a better place than the earlier years.

1:22:34

But before that I would spend at least two days with him,

1:22:37

you know just talking and philosophizing

1:22:40

and talking about the world.

1:22:44

Interviewer

You mentioned you, you know

1:22:47

you had to paid for all this, all your expenses.

1:22:50

How could you afford that?

1:22:53

-

Well, fortunately I settled the biggest case

1:22:54

of my life in 2005, a case that... (coughs)

1:22:56

Excuse me. (coughs)

1:23:03

A case that lasted 12 years

1:23:19

a case that took me all the way up to the U.S. Supreme court

1:23:22

where I argued in 2004 and I won.

1:23:25

And these were actually a combination

1:23:31

of three class actions. (coughs)

1:23:33

The actual case that went to the Supreme court

1:23:37

was a race discrimination class action.

1:23:39

And I challenged the statute of limitations

1:23:42

for 1981, section 1981 cases

1:23:46

and argued that it should be uniform across the country.

1:23:49

And it should be four years.

1:23:52

And the Supreme court agreed with me.

1:23:55

So with that, the risk case, the age case

1:23:57

and the pension case all settled

1:24:01

within months of each other with the final one

1:24:03

being the race case in early 2005.

1:24:06

So that's primarily how I've been supporting this.

1:24:10

And instead of having that money for my retirement

1:24:12

my money went into trying to save our constitution,

1:24:15

but you know, it's been okay.

1:24:21

And now I'm just starting now to think

1:24:24

about taking on some other cases.

1:24:27

Interviewer

Did you get a chance to walk

1:24:32

through the camps when you would go to Guantanamo?

1:24:33

-

No, well, I walked through six.

1:24:40

I met with my client in six

1:24:45

two or three times before they stopped that.

1:24:46

But camp four I've been right outside of

1:24:49

that was when Razak Ali didn't want to see me.

1:24:54

And I was sending notes into him and my translator

1:24:58

got to go in with the attorney to bring the note to him

1:25:01

and talk with him.

1:25:06

But that's as far as I got.

1:25:08

Interviewer

Do you have any impressions

1:25:10

of what you saw other than the... (indistinct)

1:25:11

-

Well, actually when I said

1:25:17

that none of the camps, Camp Iguana

1:25:20

I've been to many times because that was,

1:25:22

originally that's where all the children were kept.

1:25:26

And then it moved on to being a place

1:25:30

for interrogations and where we would meet with our clients

1:25:33

sometimes if there were a lot of attorneys.

1:25:38

So I had been to Iguana several times

1:25:39

and then it later became the place

1:25:43

for the men who won their habeas cases.

1:25:46

So that's been a kind of a weird mix

1:25:49

of case places for that one facility.

1:25:52

They're very different, all three of those camps

1:26:01

just from an outsider point of view

1:26:03

when you go by camp four, you can see all the barracks

1:26:06

from the fence and you can kind of see this, you know

1:26:10

stream of barracks going towards the sea.

1:26:13

And it kind of reminded me of like the old German prisons

1:26:17

from war movies and with the big watchtowers.

1:26:25

And then you go to camp five and six

1:26:28

and there these concrete, you know,

1:26:32

all enclosed, all encompassed,

1:26:35

concrete and plastic facilities.

1:26:38

And then of course there's camp Iguana

1:26:43

that the meeting rooms that we actually met in

1:26:45

had big overstuffed furniture.

1:26:48

So you'd walk in,

1:26:51

the first time I walked into have a meeting in there,

1:26:52

and that was after I was at

1:26:54

had been going to Guantanamo for a few years. (coughs)

1:26:56

And I walked in and there's like a big overstuffed couch

1:27:01

and then a coffee table

1:27:05

and then two big overstuffed chairs

1:27:07

one with a, both in the floor

1:27:09

for the prisoner to be shackled to.

1:27:13

And I was just like, what is this?

1:27:18

And you sit in the chair and you're like sinking into it.

1:27:20

You know, it's just weird.

1:27:23

All of it.

1:27:27

I think that's pretty much my impressions.

1:27:30

Interviewer

You noticed these on camp--

1:27:33

-

No. (coughs)

1:27:35

Interviewer

I don't have that much more to ask.

1:27:43

I want to ask you about

1:27:44

you had shut down your practice for a while.

1:27:46

Maybe tell us why you did that.

1:27:50

-

Yeah, in 2006, when I really started

1:27:53

to get heavily involved in the cases of my two clients

1:27:57

I realized that it was taking up

1:28:01

all of my time, partly because it was making me so crazy

1:28:03

knowing what was going on with them.

1:28:07

And it was doing research and I was filing lots of pleadings

1:28:09

and I had a couple of other cases going on at the time.

1:28:12

And one was still going on when I shut down my practice.

1:28:17

I had one case that was still expected to go to trial

1:28:24

and was expected to go to trial, I think in 2008

1:28:29

near the end of the year.

1:28:32

And then right before it went to trial,

1:28:33

the judge threw it out on summary judgment

1:28:36

and it's now up on appeal.

1:28:38

And so that case is, you know

1:28:42

another one of these going on forever cases.

1:28:43

It originated from the start of the Iraqi war

1:28:45

and a bunch of protestors that were arrested

1:28:49

that night in Chicago.

1:28:51

I also had a case with a teenager

1:28:54

who was raped by her boss at her first job.

1:28:56

And that case was thrown out on summary judgment.

1:29:01

And I filed an appeal at the same time

1:29:05

when I'm working on the Guantanamo stuff.

1:29:10

And it was a case that made me so angry

1:29:13

because the judge in his ruling said

1:29:16

this boss had only touched this 16 year old girl

1:29:20

11 times at work.

1:29:24

And that the rape was actually consensual.

1:29:27

And so I appealed and I got a bunch of Amicus briefs

1:29:32

and we actually changed the law for a different standard

1:29:39

for teenagers in the workplace, in the seventh circuit.

1:29:42

So that was one of my last cases.

1:29:46

And I settled that case in late 2007.

1:29:49

So that was my only other case.

1:29:54

And just stopped taking on anything new.

1:29:56

I was just finishing up the stuff that I had

1:29:58

because I was so immersed in Guantanamo.

1:30:00

And then I had this opportunity to go to the Hague

1:30:05

to work as a visiting professional in the victim section.

1:30:08

And that just seemed so right up my alley

1:30:13

seemed so appropriate.

1:30:18

And I always have had this feeling

1:30:19

that Guantanamo was just about to be over

1:30:22

for me in my life that my clients were going to be free.

1:30:24

This was the beginning of 2008.

1:30:28

I moved to the Hague in January, 2008

1:30:29

and was there until July of 2009.

1:30:33

And so I was commuting from the Hague to Guantanamo

1:30:38

and to Washington DC.

1:30:45

And the actual four months when my visiting

1:30:49

professional stint was when I was being compensated for

1:30:53

I did not go to Guantanamo.

1:30:58

And I was of course worried about my clients

1:31:00

but I didn't wanna take a week off in a four month period.

1:31:02

And so I actually got some other very nice attorneys

1:31:06

to go and visit both my clients.

1:31:10

And as soon as my stint was over,

1:31:12

I actually went from the Hague to Guantanamo in that period.

1:31:14

And I was still in the Hague for another year

1:31:19

working on some projects for the court,

1:31:23

but I wasn't part of the,

1:31:24

I was more of a outside contractor though.

1:31:26

So it wasn't, you know, no one was keeping track of my time.

1:31:29

Interviewer

So looking back

1:31:33

for the last five or six years in terms of justice,

1:31:36

in one Congo, what are your thoughts?

1:31:42

-

Hardly anything. (laughs)

1:31:50

I'm very disappointed in our court system.

1:31:55

I really got involved in this

1:31:57

because I had confidence in the courts at that time.

1:32:00

I really thought that our courts would do the right thing.

1:32:03

And that has been eye opening to me to see

1:32:07

how the courts have just crumbled

1:32:11

before the executive branch

1:32:14

and that they are just unwilling and unable to stand

1:32:17

for the rule of law that they just, whatever the military

1:32:21

the executive wants is what they will do.

1:32:26

And to me, it's probably the most,

1:32:29

it's even more disappointing

1:32:33

than what we've done with Guantanamo,

1:32:34

because it goes to the very fabric of our country.

1:32:37

And I don't see an easy way out on this.

1:32:42

I don't see this changing very rapidly

1:32:45

and I'm not saying all of the courts are like that.

1:32:48

I'm not saying all the judges, but in DC

1:32:50

we have a special breed

1:32:54

'cause those are mostly political appointees,

1:32:56

more so than you have in the ninth circuit or seventh

1:32:58

because they're not homegrown.

1:33:02

You know, they're not from DC.

1:33:03

They're kind of, whoever's the president at the time picks

1:33:05

from all over the country and moves them there.

1:33:08

So we have a lot of ideologues from GW

1:33:10

and and some of those judges have just astounded me

1:33:15

with the rulings and their lack of anything

1:33:21

approaching justice or empathy.

1:33:26

And the crassness, one judge that I had recuse himself

1:33:29

from Razak Ali's case actually thought

1:33:34

it was okay to make a speech

1:33:38

in front of the bar association

1:33:41

in which he said he did not know if he could free a man

1:33:43

from Guantanamo because they could be the one to blow up

1:33:48

the Washington monument or the Capitol.

1:33:52

Imagine telling your client,

1:33:55

"Well, this is your judge, this judge who just said

1:33:57

he doesn't think he could set you free."

1:34:00

When I read that.

1:34:03

And I know a lot of the attorneys in the habeas bar

1:34:05

were amazed that I did this motion to recuse

1:34:09

'cause they didn't think he'd recuse himself.

1:34:13

And I didn't care if he recused himself or not.

1:34:16

I did care

1:34:19

but I didn't think he would either, but it was wrong.

1:34:20

It was wrong for him to say that.

1:34:23

And it's a bad reflection on our courts

1:34:25

and on the independence of the judiciary or lack thereof.

1:34:29

Interviewer

Can you tell us who the judge was?

1:34:34

-

That's chief judge

1:34:36

of the district court of DC, Judge Lamberth

1:34:37

and I filed a motion to recuse him

1:34:45

and much to my chagrin,

1:34:49

the government filed a response in which they said,

1:34:55

"Oh he shouldn't recuse himself for that.

1:34:59

That's nothing, he's allowed to talk about his opinions."

1:35:03

But by the way, we had an ex parte conversation

1:35:07

and attorney on this case, Razak Ali's case

1:35:12

from the department of defense

1:35:16

met with judge Lamberth after that breakfast

1:35:19

that same breakfast, where he makes the speech,

1:35:22

they go up and ask him a question about discovery

1:35:24

in this case.

1:35:27

And I think I've pieced together

1:35:28

what it was that this was all about,

1:35:31

but it's taken a long time.

1:35:33

But I think, what I knew from what they filed

1:35:35

was that they had a problem with an expert witness.

1:35:39

And there was a little feud going on

1:35:45

between the department of defense and department of justice

1:35:48

as to whether or not they had to give exculpatory

1:35:51

information about expert witnesses.

1:35:54

And the judge said, no

1:35:57

just this little, you know, private discovery conference.

1:36:00

So the judge ended up recusing themselves.

1:36:06

When they told me they had this meeting

1:36:09

with him and they discussed a discovery matter.

1:36:11

And then they said

1:36:15

they couldn't tell me what it was because it was privileged.

1:36:16

You couldn't believe how I reacted.

1:36:21

I mean, it was just like

1:36:25

what else is gonna happen in these cases?

1:36:26

Now they've got a privileged relationship with the judge

1:36:28

and they can have ex parte conversations with them.

1:36:31

And I can't even find out what it is

1:36:34

because it's privileged, but he should still be the judge.

1:36:36

So I filed a really hard reply.

1:36:39

And then I just knew this is not gonna be the judge

1:36:43

in this case anymore.

1:36:45

And I told him in that reply

1:36:47

that if you don't recuse yourself, I will appeal.

1:36:50

And then at the same time, I filed discovery requests

1:36:54

asking for all the information

1:36:57

about the nature of the conversation and everything.

1:36:59

And it took him four months to recuse himself.

1:37:02

And then he had the nerve to blame it on me,

1:37:06

that I was making a sideshow and delaying things.

1:37:09

So he couldn't even admit, you know, that he screwed up.

1:37:13

And for him, you know

1:37:17

he said it was a fleeting conversation.

1:37:20

For him it might've been a fleeting conversation

1:37:22

for the department of justice, it was policy.

1:37:24

And so they got a ruling that I know they followed

1:37:27

and I was able to piece it all together afterwards

1:37:33

what it was and who the problem was.

1:37:35

And they ended up not filing that particular affidavit

1:37:37

in my case, just to avoid the issue.

1:37:42

So they could say they never acted on it.

1:37:44

And that was part of how I was able to figure out

1:37:46

who it was.

1:37:48

'Cause they filed it in every other case.

1:37:49

Interviewer

Why would they even reveal to you

1:37:52

that they have a concession?

1:37:54

-

It's only speculation.

1:37:56

Speculation is either someone knew about this conversation

1:37:58

that they were worried about if they didn't fess up

1:38:03

or they thought I was gonna somehow find out.

1:38:08

So I'm sure it was not their benevolence.

1:38:11

And they're, you know, trying to keep the slate clean.

1:38:14

I'm sure there was something hanging over them

1:38:17

either there was the fear that I was gonna find out somehow

1:38:18

or that someone who did know about it

1:38:22

was saying this isn't right.

1:38:25

And you've got to say.

1:38:26

Interviewer

Would you describe yourself

1:38:30

as being somewhat idealistic

1:38:30

or even maybe naive before you started taking

1:38:34

the Guantanamo cases about the justice system?

1:38:37

-

Well, I wouldn't say idealistic or naive.

1:38:40

I've worked in the justice system now for 30 years.

1:38:43

I've won a lot of cases.

1:38:46

I've lost a lot of cases.

1:38:47

I understand how things work.

1:38:48

I've had dirty tricks pulled at me in cases

1:38:50

but I've never seen anything like this.

1:38:54

And I don't know if you know

1:38:57

the judges seem to think because there's a war going on

1:38:59

that our constitution flies out the window.

1:39:02

And I don't think it's naive and a petite me to say,

1:39:05

no, it doesn't, but this is the time we really need it.

1:39:08

But I have been astounded at just how willing

1:39:12

they're willing to throw the bathwater out with the baby

1:39:17

or the baby out with the bath water.

1:39:21

Who needs that old constitution, you know.

1:39:23

Interviewer

Do you think, did you expect

1:39:27

Obama to do better?

1:39:29

-

I hoped, I didn't expect.

1:39:32

Interviewer

When he said he had closed Guantanamo

1:39:36

what did you think?

1:39:38

-

I said that's would be good.

1:39:39

It didn't take me very long to realize

1:39:41

that wasn't gonna happen.

1:39:43

'Cause I watched how he set up his review team

1:39:44

the task force, and what they were doing.

1:39:47

And it didn't take very long to realize

1:39:51

that this was not gonna close within a year.

1:39:55

And all I could do is try to push for my two clients.

1:39:58

And the one thing I'm sorry about is that I didn't

1:40:01

understand the nature of why they were holding Razak.

1:40:05

So I don't think I pitched him as well

1:40:08

as I could have to that review team,

1:40:11

because I really thought

1:40:14

it was just that he was in this house

1:40:15

and I thought that they must be holding him

1:40:19

as some kind of material witness of something

1:40:21

that was going on in the house.

1:40:24

And I didn't realize that they were going

1:40:25

to eventually try to say he was someone bad.

1:40:27

There's no evidence that anyone there even knew him.

1:40:30

So I was pitching it in one way

1:40:34

and I just couldn't understand why he was not cleared.

1:40:37

And now once the case got going

1:40:42

and I started getting discovery and I could see

1:40:46

where they were going with it,

1:40:48

built by guest house.

1:40:51

Interviewer

So are you saying that the Obama lawyer is

1:40:53

what would I say--

1:40:58

(Candace coughs)

1:40:59

-

They were reinventing the wheel.

1:41:00

They were going back in everybody's file

1:41:02

and trying to pull together entire cases

1:41:04

because one of the things they found out

1:41:09

when they first got involved, the taskforce

1:41:11

was that there were no files.

1:41:13

Well, yeah, we kind of knew that

1:41:16

because that's why it was hard to get anything

1:41:18

in these cases.

1:41:20

And that's why it's still going on to this day.

1:41:21

When someone has a trial coming up

1:41:24

all of a sudden your paper to death.

1:41:26

'Cause they go and look for it then,

1:41:28

"Oh, there's a trial, we better go find something."

1:41:30

So they were trying

1:41:34

to, I think they were coming from the angle

1:41:35

of trying to figure out, to justify why they were there

1:41:38

as opposed to figuring that they probably were innocent.

1:41:43

And let's see what they've got

1:41:47

but they spent an awful long time

1:41:50

on issues that should have not taken that long.

1:41:52

There weren't that many men still Guantanamo

1:41:55

as there still aren't.

1:41:58

I think there were 225 ish and now there's 173.

1:41:59

So he's gotten rid of about 50.

1:42:03

Interviewer

So where are we going in 2011?

1:42:06

Where are we going?

1:42:11

-

Well, it looks like they're digging in

1:42:12

for the long haul with Guantanamo

1:42:14

there's unrest going on at the...

1:42:17

Unrest might be a strong word

1:42:19

but there's protests going on at Guantanamo now.

1:42:21

Men are making signs

1:42:24

and plastering up signs all over.

1:42:25

I think part of it's because they're being moved

1:42:29

into camp six

1:42:30

it looks like they're gonna close camp four

1:42:32

which is really a shame

1:42:34

because that was the only kind of comfortable camp

1:42:37

for men who are never charged with anything, you know

1:42:40

they don't need to be in solitary cells.

1:42:43

So camp four is more of a dormitory style,

1:42:46

has a big, excuse me, big open yard

1:42:49

where they get a couple hours a day out there.

1:42:52

And now they're in camps six

1:42:55

and they're being moved in there

1:42:57

since the last couple months, I guess.

1:42:59

And I'm afraid Razak is gonna be in there too.

1:43:02

He probably is already there.

1:43:06

And these are really social men and to lock them in cells...

1:43:08

Well, Halliburton built this nice big jail

1:43:16

and it was sitting pretty much empty.

1:43:18

Most of the men had been moved into camp four

1:43:20

or there was only one

1:43:24

or two pods in camp six that were open

1:43:25

but they opened up all the cells most of the day

1:43:27

so that the men could walk around and talk to each other.

1:43:30

It still wasn't the optimal camp

1:43:33

but I think it's the most modern

1:43:35

probably the easiest to contain people

1:43:37

because of the way the structure is built.

1:43:39

And so someone made the decision,

1:43:42

closed down camp four and move everybody in there.

1:43:44

It's a cruel decision.

1:43:47

Interviewer

So, what do you see

1:43:49

then camp five would be discarded too?

1:43:51

-

I think they're using five and six.

1:43:55

Five is pretty, I've never seen five

1:43:58

but I understand five is pretty similar to six.

1:44:01

Interviewer

And when you say they approach us

1:44:04

and what does that mean?

1:44:06

-

They're just putting up signs.

1:44:07

One of the signs, the one that made me smile,

1:44:09

nod my head was, "Where are the courts?"

1:44:13

Yeah, they learned something, you know

1:44:15

these 10 years that we're supposed to have a court system

1:44:17

that's supposed to be meeting our justice.

1:44:21

And instead they're just sitting there day after day

1:44:24

year after year.

1:44:26

Some of the signs say, you know,

1:44:27

"We're fathers, we have children, we have wives.

1:44:28

We have parents, let us go.

1:44:30

Don't keep us here

1:44:33

because of problems in the outside world, let us go home."

1:44:35

Those kinds of sentiments.

1:44:39

And they're all in English, which is kind of amazing

1:44:41

but I guess they figured no one will understand

1:44:44

if they're an Arabic or Pashto or whatever language

1:44:47

the men happen to speak.

1:44:50

Interviewer

So that reminds me,

1:44:52

so can you tell us a little bit about Al-Ghizzawi

1:44:53

when you said he's released at Georgia,

1:44:56

how's he doing?

1:44:58

-

He's trying really hard to adjust and it's a struggle.

1:44:59

At the beginning, when I went to visit him

1:45:06

when he was released and we speak about every month

1:45:08

or six weeks or so we Skype

1:45:13

and, you know, he's struggling.

1:45:16

And he's said he's had the six AIDS tests

1:45:18

to confirm that

1:45:21

he is getting treatment for his liver condition

1:45:23

and for the hepatitis.

1:45:26

Unfortunately, the Georgians have adopted

1:45:28

our system of an health care

1:45:30

and they don't cover preexisting conditions.

1:45:33

But the Illinois, the international ICRC,

1:45:37

the red cross and national committee has been very helpful.

1:45:42

The Georgian branch they've dealt

1:45:46

with a lot of torture survivors

1:45:47

because of wars that have gone on in that part of the world

1:45:49

and Soviet empire issues.

1:45:54

And so they've taken him on, and there's also a couple

1:45:56

of torture groups there with psychologists and things.

1:46:00

And you know, he's working through his past.

1:46:05

Interviewer

Does he have a job?

1:46:11

-

He doesn't have a job.

1:46:12

He should be okay for three years.

1:46:14

That's the deal.

1:46:16

Three years is how much, how long

1:46:18

the Georgians will be giving him the stipend and apartment.

1:46:21

And that is supposed to (coughs) give them enough time

1:46:26

to get acclimated, learn the language and get some skills.

1:46:32

Interviewer

And why couldn't he go back to Afghanistan?

1:46:37

-

Would have been a big mistake because of the ongoing war.

1:46:40

Arabs are still not...

1:46:43

He'd probably just picked up again.

1:46:48

Interviewer

And will he see his wife again and daughter?

1:46:52

-

It's hard to say, it's, you know,

1:46:54

it's such a a divide between the life

1:46:56

that she's had in Afghanistan all these years,

1:46:59

including with him and then coming

1:47:02

to a more Western country.

1:47:04

Her brother really does not want her to go.

1:47:07

And Mr. Al-Ghizzawi says, when he talks to his wife

1:47:10

on the phone she says she would like to come

1:47:13

but when her brother's there, she says she can't come.

1:47:16

So he's talked to his daughter a few times on the phone.

1:47:19

And of course this is a daughter who has no idea

1:47:23

who he is, she's 10 now.

1:47:25

And so he's hoping that ICRC will pay

1:47:31

for them to arrange for the flight and pay for them.

1:47:32

And the Georgian government has said, you know

1:47:35

they'll help him find a bigger place if they come.

1:47:37

So it's all possible.

1:47:42

But so far, it's almost a year

1:47:44

and he still needs to do some healing too.

1:47:46

Interviewer

So you said you're taking on new clients?

1:47:52

-

I took on one new client

1:47:54

a man who was on death row in Illinois for 20 years.

1:47:57

And he came to me through another friend of mine

1:48:01

who's a Guantanamo attorney who does a criminal practice

1:48:04

an attorney in Chicago.

1:48:08

And so the two of us are working on the case together.

1:48:10

And the man himself was in jail

1:48:15

in prison in Illinois for 21 years on death row

1:48:18

for 12 of those years, he wanted a new trial

1:48:21

after 12 years because the judge was not only corrupt

1:48:25

but went to jail and was taking bribes.

1:48:30

And that, and it turns out

1:48:34

that the co-defendant was paying a bribe to the judge.

1:48:37

So, he got a new trial

1:48:42

and the new trial, he was exonerated.

1:48:45

And now we have evidence that the government (coughs)

1:48:48

the police had files that would have showed his innocence.

1:48:54

(Candace coughs)

1:48:59

Interviewer

Well are you gonna take on

1:49:02

any war Guantanamo clients?

1:49:03

-

No, I think I've done my pro bono service.

1:49:09

I actually am a half attorney for one person Len Goodman.

1:49:12

The person I'm working with on the civil rights case

1:49:17

for the prisoner is...

1:49:20

Represents a man, an Afghany man.

1:49:24

And he had his hearing in front of Judge Bates last fall.

1:49:26

I wanna say last summer.

1:49:33

And I went down, I was going to Guantanamo

1:49:35

and Len asked me if I would sit with his client

1:49:39

during the cross-examine or during the exam of his client.

1:49:42

And I said, you know, fine, (coughs)

1:49:46

he's also a sole practitioner.

1:49:48

And so then as I was getting closer, he said,

1:49:51

"You know I think it'd be better if you did the exam

1:49:55

'cause you're gonna be right there with him."

1:49:57

And other people tell me it'd be better

1:49:58

if you're there and you ask them the questions.

1:50:00

So I said, "Okay give me the questions and I'll ask them."

1:50:02

So I went down there.

1:50:05

I met with Razak Ali, Al-Ghizzawi was already gone.

1:50:07

And I met with this client,

1:50:14

very nice man, from Afghanistan

1:50:16

who would like to go back to Afghanistan

1:50:19

who was cleared for release

1:50:21

and who had the flimsiest case against him.

1:50:23

It was just crazy.

1:50:28

But Judge Bates denied the writ.

1:50:29

So right now the standard is anything government says

1:50:33

we'll keep him.

1:50:38

Interviewer

So I guess in closing, you know

1:50:40

where do you see U.S. going forward

1:50:44

and will things get better

1:50:47

and will Guantanamo close?

1:50:50

-

All of these questions that are unanswerable at this point

1:50:53

my gut feeling is that Guantanamo gonna be open for a while.

1:50:56

Obama has not shown the strength of character

1:51:01

the leadership to do what he promised to do.

1:51:04

And he bargained away Guantanamo

1:51:07

for some other things that he was looking for.

1:51:11

And without that leadership, it's not gonna happen.

1:51:14

The ironic thing is the Republicans

1:51:16

were saying, the Republican candidate was saying

1:51:19

he was gonna close Guantanamo too

1:51:21

but it's the Republicans that keep screaming,

1:51:24

"Oh my gosh we can't close this place."

1:51:28

I guess closing it puts it into a sad chapter,

1:51:30

but it also kind of signals that maybe what happened

1:51:35

at Guantanamo wasn't right.

1:51:42

And there's these naysayers

1:51:45

that don't want to have that chapter

1:51:47

in because they want to have people believe

1:51:50

that this was necessary and this was proper.

1:51:53

And that nothing that they did there was wrong.

1:51:56

And having Obama keep it open, certainly suggests

1:51:59

that to the people who realize it's still open

1:52:02

'cause there are a lot of people tell me,

1:52:06

"He didn't he close it?"

1:52:08

And no, he didn't.

1:52:10

Interviewer

Well, any final thoughts

1:52:13

as to where you work over the last 30 years

1:52:16

or last five years or anything

1:52:19

that I haven't asked you about?

1:52:21

-

I can't think of anything else.

1:52:23

I think we covered.

1:52:25

Interviewer

Well, it was amazing.

1:52:27

So thanks for this.

1:52:27

I really appreciate it a lot.

1:52:30

As you know, I'm really proud of you.

1:52:30

-

Thank you so much.

1:52:34

And thanks for having this beautiful weather

1:52:36

for me here in San Francisco.

1:52:38

Interviewer

Thanks, and we need 20 seconds for Johnny

1:52:40

to do quiet sound checks.

1:52:42

Johnny

Begin room tone.

1:52:48

Gorman, Candace - Interview master file

Transcript

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Human Rights Archive

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