Zemmouri, Mosa - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Okay, good evening.

0:05

-

Good evening.

0:07

Interviewer

I'd like to begin by just confirming

0:08

that you're agreeing to this interview,

0:11

you accept this to be filmed for this interview.

0:14

-

I think so, yes.

0:19

Interviewer

Okay, and would you like to do it

0:20

in English or in Dutch?

0:23

-

I think like I told you before,

0:26

the memory is in English.

0:30

Interviewer

Memories is in English--

0:32

-

How it happened.

0:33

Interviewer

Okay, good.

0:34

Well, I'd like to just introduce a project to you.

0:34

We are very grateful to you,

0:38

for participating in the witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:40

And we invite you to speak of your experiences

0:43

in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:47

We are hoping to provide you an

0:50

opportunity to tell your story, in your own words.

0:51

We are creating an archive of stories,

0:56

so that people in America and around the world,

0:58

will have a better opportunity,

1:01

to understand what you and others

1:03

have experienced and endured.

1:06

Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo.

1:09

And we appreciate you telling the story

1:12

so that other people will know in the future.

1:16

We appreciate your willingness to speak with us today.

1:22

And if there's any time that you like take a break,

1:26

just let us know.

1:29

And is there anything you say

1:29

that you would like us to remove,

1:31

we can remove it if you just tell us that as well.

1:33

And we'd like to begin by asking you your name,

1:37

and your date of birth, and your country of origin.

1:40

Maybe you could start with that and your age?

1:44

Your name?

1:48

-

Yes, my name is Musa

1:50

Zemmouri.

1:55

Interviewer

Do you wanna tell us

1:57

your last name or not?

1:58

-

Musa is my name.

2:00

My last name is Zemmouri.

2:02

Interviewer

Okay, and how old are You?

2:04

Your choice?

2:11

-

I try to remember.

2:13

Interviewer

Cool, Okay.

2:15

-

35.

2:17

[Interviewer

Okay.

2:18

And what country

2:20

were you born in?

2:23

-

I'm born in Belgium

2:25

In this city that you are now I think.

2:27

Interviewer

And where do you live now?

2:30

-

Yes.

2:33

Interviewer

Okay.

2:34

And what's your

2:35

religion?

2:37

-

No, I-

2:41

Interviewer

The world needs to Know, I know,

2:42

but the world needs to know-

2:45

-

I think if you are not Muslim

2:46

you will not belong to Guantanamo.

2:47

It's only because you are Muslim, you're in Guantanamo.

2:50

Interviewer

Was everyone ...

2:56

That you met in Guantanamo was muslim?

2:57

-

All, there was no one,

3:00

nothing else only about the Muslims.

3:02

There was about ideology.

3:06

It's nothing about anything, some people did or something.

3:08

It's about your ideology,

3:12

because you are Muslim,

3:14

so they don't care.

3:16

Interviewer

And are you married?

3:20

-

Yes.

3:25

Interviewer

Do you have children?

3:26

-

I'm married now for maybe one year or two years?

3:28

I have a child, yes.

3:31

Interviewer

And could you remember,

3:33

the day you went, you were taken to Guantanamo,

3:35

and also the day you left, do you remember those days?

3:38

When you first came to Guantanamo,

3:43

and then when you left Guantanamo?

3:44

-

You can say it is grift in my head,

3:47

but I can't say what time or date,

3:50

but I remember you tell me what-

3:52

Interviewer

What year? Do you know what year maybe?

3:55

-

If you tell me what the day you go,

3:56

yes, it's in my head here.

3:59

But if you say, well, the date, I don't remember the date.

4:01

I didn't have the right to have a watch or something

4:04

but it was something in the end of the year.

4:08

Interviewer

Was it 2002, or 2003?

4:12

-

I think it was 2001 or something.

4:16

Interviewer

Okay.

4:20

Can you tell us where you were first captured

4:21

where you... Who... How had that happened?

4:24

-

Yes, I was kidnapped in Pakistan.

4:27

Interviewer

And who kidnapped you?

4:30

-

The Pakistanis.

4:32

So because I'm worth... I'm some wealth for them, I think.

4:33

So, they wanted to get some money,

4:39

and it was good because America is giving money

4:43

to someone who sells.

4:45

Interviewer

How much?

4:48

Do you know have much money it was?

4:49

-

I don't know, but they sell me,

4:50

they kidnapped me and they sell me to the Americans.

4:53

They got money from that.

4:55

Interviewer

And where did they take you to,

4:57

when the Americans purchased you, where did you go?

4:59

-

First they took me to some Villa.

5:02

They told they want to take me to the embassy in Belgium.

5:04

After that they played tricks.

5:09

And then after that, they put me in jail with others,

5:12

and then they sell me to America.

5:15

Interviewer

And where, in what jail

5:17

in what country was the jail in?

5:18

-

In Pakistan

5:21

Interviewer

In Pakistan?

5:22

-

Yes.

5:23

Interviewer

And who were the others who were with you?

5:24

-

I was alone, but I met in jail, many people.

5:26

Yes.

5:31

Interviewer

Were they all sold with you

5:32

to the Americans, or just some of them?

5:34

-

I think so, it was the most.

5:37

Interviewer

And when you were sold to Americans

5:39

did the Americans keep you somewhere

5:42

before they sent you to Guantanamo?

5:44

-

They took me to Kandahar.

5:47

Interviewer

Kandahar?

5:50

-

Yes, its reminds me of what they did

5:51

with the slaves before you know.

5:53

They put it...

5:55

They charged together in some ...

5:56

In Africa someplace, and then they take them.

5:59

They transport them to someone else,

6:02

to sell them or something.

6:06

But so that is what happened.

6:08

So they take me from Pakistan to Kandahar.

6:10

Interviewer

And how did they treat you in Kandahar?

6:13

What conditions were you in Kandahar?

6:15

-

Terrible,

6:24

conditions.

6:25

What can I say?

6:27

Interviewer

Well-

6:29

-

I was thinking

6:29

when I was in Pakistan, I remember this also.

6:30

I was thinking, when we go from Pakistan to Kandahar.

6:35

(indistinct)

6:39

They will take us to the Americans.

6:39

We thought we are going

6:41

to some country-wise home, human rights, you know.

6:42

And we thought this country will treat us like human.

6:47

But it treats us

6:52

more worse.

6:55

Treated us worse, than the Pakistani themselves.

6:58

The first what I remember is beating.

7:03

Interviewer

Do you remember dogs?

7:07

If there were dogs around?

7:11

-

In Kandahar, yes.

7:12

They wake us up every night with dogs.

7:15

Said "Get up! Get up! Get up!"

7:18

Every night to take the numbers.

7:20

Then a day, many times a day, many times at night.

7:22

Interviewer

And did they tell you why you were there?

7:27

-

Where?

7:33

Interviewer

Did the Americans tell you

7:34

why they were holding you?

7:35

-

I don't understand the question.

7:44

Interviewer

Did the Americans interrogate you

7:45

when you were in Kandahar?

7:48

Did they ask you questions?

7:49

-

Yes.

7:51

Interviewer

What kind of questions did they ask you?

7:52

-

They ask questions, you are terrorist.

7:53

You are this, you are this, like these things.

7:56

They won't tell you to answer what they like.

8:00

If they like the answer, they are happy,

8:03

if they don't like your answer, they beat you senseless.

8:05

What do you want, what?

8:10

Interviewer

Did you ever get hung up?

8:12

Were you ever hung up by your wrists?

8:14

-

Yes.

8:17

Interviewer

Were you?

8:18

-

Yes.

8:19

Interviewer

For how long do you know?

8:20

-

For hours, I don't know,

8:21

I don't remember maybe four or five hours.

8:22

I don't remember.

8:24

Interviewer

Did you see other people,

8:25

hung by their wrists too?

8:26

-

No.

8:30

But they

8:31

of course it was in a...

8:32

inside a tent.

8:35

Interviewer

And you were alone in that tent, or with?

8:39

-

Yes.

8:41

Interviewer

And-

8:43

-

No cloths.

8:44

Interviewer

No clothes?

8:45

-

Yes, nothing.

8:46

Interviewer

Were you cold?

8:47

-

The cold everything.

8:48

There's a time of, I think January or February,

8:50

something like that, so very cold in that country.

8:54

Interviewer

And before then

8:59

you thought Americans believed in human rights

9:02

before that happened?

9:05

-

Yes, yes, I thought that this America,

9:07

the human rights country.

9:10

So, fight for the human rights and everything.

9:12

Interviewer

And then when they sent you to Guantanamo

9:16

did you know, did they tell you you're going to Guantanamo?

9:19

Or did they just put you on a plane,

9:23

or how did that happen?

9:25

-

It came like this one day.

9:28

They take people,

9:32

they call numbers.

9:34

We were numbers anyway.

9:35

So they take us one by one.

9:37

So my number came,

9:39

and they take me to some other block.

9:43

And after that, they take me to some place.

9:46

They cut my clothes again.

9:49

And they gave me orange clothes.

9:53

And they put the things on my face and my ears.

9:59

So, I have no right to smell even, or to hear anything.

10:02

And they put me in one tent,

10:08

before others,

10:10

and then between others,

10:11

who they take to Guantanamo.

10:14

So, we were after, in the morning,

10:16

before sunrise,

10:19

I think,

10:21

they take us to the airplane,

10:23

but we didn't know where we were going, of course.

10:26

After I was in Guantanamo,

10:32

they told me you are in Guantanamo.

10:34

Yes, you're in Cuba.

10:36

Yes, something like that.

10:38

Interviewer

Could you tell us about the plane ride?

10:42

-

Or you are going to Cuba,

10:44

I don't remember,

10:45

something like that.

10:47

Interviewer

How was the plane ride?

10:49

-

I think they told me before, I don't remember.

10:51

Something like that.

10:53

Interviewer

How was the plane ride?

10:58

Could you describe the plane ride?

11:00

How was the ride on the plane to Guantanamo?

11:03

-

I think it was like side.

11:06

When they take me inside, they put me on the side.

11:09

So I sit like this, someone is sitting next to me.

11:12

Some is to sitting like this, on the side.

11:15

They catch

11:19

the chuckle on the ground.

11:21

And you could not talk, you could not.

11:25

They put gloves on your hand,

11:28

with plastic so you can move your fingers also, like this.

11:29

Interviewer

Could you eat?

11:36

-

They give some food, yes.

11:39

To put it in these gloves,

11:42

to put it in your mouth like this, yes.

11:44

Something with peanuts.

11:47

Interviewer

Could you go to the bathroom?

11:50

-

Yes, if you move your hand or something?

11:54

They took me to the bathroom, they took me.

11:57

They put the pants down.

11:59

That is the question?

12:02

Interviewer

Yes.

12:04

Could you?

12:06

Were you in pain?

12:07

Is it painful sitting there?

12:09

-

I would sit there for hours.

12:12

I don't know how many hours?

12:14

Four hours, maybe one day, 24 hours,

12:17

28,

12:20

34.

12:22

I don't remember, something very long anyway.

12:23

Interviewer

And what happened when you landed?

12:27

When the plane landed,

12:31

do you remember what happened after that?

12:32

-

Hmm.

12:34

Interviewer

What?

12:35

-

The first, what I did.

12:36

They take me out,

12:38

and they say then take care about this one here.

12:40

They take me, they cut the clothes,

12:43

and the beginning the beating.

12:46

By that then I don't understand what they mean take care.

12:48

Then I don't understand what they mean with

12:53

take care of this-

12:55

Interviewer

What did they do to ...

12:56

What happened when you got off the plane?

12:57

-

The first what I felt is warm, okay.

13:00

After that beating.

13:03

Interviewer

And they-

13:06

-

The care that they gave me, you know

13:07

Interviewer

Did they take you to-

13:12

-

To a bus.

13:13

Interviewer

To a bus?

13:15

-

Yes.

13:16

Interviewer

And then what happened then?

13:17

-

And then

13:18

they take me in the bus,

13:20

with force like this,

13:24

and then they sit me like this, how do you call this?

13:26

Clear arm sit?

13:30

Interviewer

Cross legs, right.

13:32

-

Yes they puts me cross legged.

13:33

And after that, they say, "Put your hand on your left."

13:38

Left?

13:42

And then they beat with the legs

13:44

to the-

13:49

Interviewer

Neck?

13:51

-

To the neck.

13:52

The fear they still beating from there to...

13:53

To the prison

13:57

X-ray,

13:59

camp X-ray.

14:00

That was like this, yes.

14:02

They say, "Don't move!"

14:04

But I was not moving, but they beat.

14:06

(chuckles)

14:08

They don't stop.

14:09

Interviewer

And once you got to camp x-ray,

14:11

then what happened?

14:13

-

I thought I will die that time.

14:18

And then, they put me out on the bus.

14:24

I thought maybe they will put me in something like this.

14:28

Then they put me on the ground, and someone gave me water.

14:31

And then he said, "Don't worry."

14:35

Interviewer

He said, don't worry?

14:39

-

Yes.

14:41

Interviewer

Why?

14:41

-

I don't know.

14:42

He was beating me.

14:44

They were beating me,

14:45

and then he said, "Don't worry."

14:46

and he gave me water.

14:48

Strange.

14:50

Interviewer

Could you talk to other detainees?

14:54

-

No, the beginning, they put me for...

14:59

You want the whole story or only your answers,

15:02

your questions.

15:05

You're answer, your questions.

15:08

Facilitator

He's asking you if you want the whole story,

15:10

or just the-

15:12

Interviewer

I want the whole story.

15:13

-

Yes, after they took me to some shower.

15:15

They cut my clothes again.

15:19

And then they put something on my head,

15:23

some shampoo, or something and they say,

15:25

"Wash yourself," or something.

15:27

They were laughing like this.

15:29

Some women, some this.

15:31

Then they take me to a tent.

15:34

And one woman she took,

15:40

(indistinct) my mouth.

15:44

She was asking me, "Where are your from?"

15:48

Older woman.

15:52

I said, (mumbles)

15:55

She said nice country.

15:59

Talk me like that with power, soldiers.

16:08

They put me inside the tent,

16:12

and then they said,

16:15

"You are in Cuba you will never go away."

16:16

So write a letter.

16:21

And then, I write a letter anyway.

16:37

And then they did other things, stupid things, intimidating.

16:43

And then they put cloths on.

16:50

They put me on my knees, they put clothes.

16:53

And then they say, "Close your eyes, don't look."

16:56

And they took me X-ray camp.

17:01

To,

17:08

Alpha block.

17:10

No not to Alpha.

17:13

(indistinct)

17:27

(indistinct) block.

17:30

And then they said, "Don't talk.

17:47

You can't talk.

17:49

You can't touch the fence.

17:50

This is your clothes."

17:51

I would say, "This is your mattress."

17:54

Something you saw these things anyway.

17:57

And then we went like in some,

18:03

cell, how you call it anyway.

18:12

Some... You put birds in you know.

18:15

Or, I think it was for dogs.

18:17

Things were for ...

18:21

You know (indistinct)

18:23

Interviewer

Yeah (indistinct).

18:26

-

Something like that,

18:29

so we have something for water.

18:31

Something for

18:34

to put water in it.

18:37

Interviewer

Did they tell you how long

18:46

you might be there?

18:48

-

No.

18:50

Interviewer

Could you then talk to other detainees?

18:55

-

In the beginning you couldn't talk with anyone,

19:00

then they give you permission

19:03

to talk to someone next to you.

19:05

And when you sleep they (sighs)

19:10

you have to show your hands, or in your legs,

19:14

because they think we will fly, or something.

19:18

We're birds or something, I don't know.

19:22

Interviewer

Did you get taken to the interrogators?

19:33

-

Same day.

19:38

Interviewer

Same day?

19:39

-

Yes.

19:40

Interviewer

And what kind of questions did they ask you?

19:41

-

Questions?

19:48

Where were you (indistinct).

19:49

There was one...

19:57

One of them called himself Gabriel.

19:58

(indistinct)

20:01

One girl, I don't remember her name.

20:03

She was asking... She is like talking Arabic.

20:07

So, she couldn't talk very good anyway.

20:12

They didn't understand what she was.

20:15

Sometimes she tries.

20:17

And the other one was, he said on the... All the time,

20:20

"Got you, we've got him, we got you, we got him."

20:23

Like this.

20:26

That's all the questions.

20:28

She was asking something and he was...

20:30

Interviewer

Did you know English

20:40

when you got to Guantanamo?

20:41

-

In reality, I learned English there more than,

20:44

I know a little bit.

20:48

Interviewer

How did you learn it there?

20:49

-

Within the interrogations, and some books.

20:54

One time when it was before in the beginning,

20:56

when they give us books,

20:59

not in the beginning the next six months.

21:01

When we were in Camp Delta, they give every book.

21:04

After that they give stupid books.

21:07

So, I took English, is better to,

21:08

at least they have something useful to do, to learn English.

21:12

Interviewer

Did the Belgium consulate come to visit you

21:17

while you were there?

21:21

-

Yes.

21:22

Interviewer

And what did they ask you?

21:23

-

They interrogated me also.

21:26

Like,

21:27

they made use of it.

21:28

They made use of it,

21:32

and pledge to come to help.

21:34

The first shock I got was from one of them.

21:37

He said, when they were taking my finger taps,

21:40

fingerprints,

21:46

he said,

21:48

because it didn't work, you know.

21:49

Because he was not used some new technology.

21:51

I think of something.

21:53

So, he didn't know that he has to open it first.

21:55

So, he said, "Terrorist."

21:58

So, he gave me the name.

22:02

Without a shot or anything.

22:08

He gave me this word terrorist.

22:09

Interviewer

What did you say?

22:17

-

I didn't say nothing, but is still here.

22:19

Still grieved.

22:24

He said "Terrorists we don't charge nothing."

22:27

I was thinking, now I'm in America,

22:30

but now did Belgium.

22:33

(indistinct)

22:35

Belgium was here now.

22:35

They said we can do nothing.

22:37

But the problem was he said terrorist.

22:39

First he said, we can do nothing, we are in American,

22:42

okay, that's right.

22:45

"This is America," he said.

22:47

We have nothing, we can do nothing.

22:49

Only what we can do, is,

22:50

if they have something against you,

22:55

we will try to take you to Belgium.

22:57

Strange.

23:01

They can help people who has something, who has some crime,

23:03

but they can't help innocent people who has nothing.

23:07

But he could easily say terrorist.

23:12

I don't understand still, who was terrorizing other one.

23:15

He was interrogating me,

23:21

for something and accuse me for something I don't know.

23:23

Or...

23:28

Or me who was chuckled on the ground,

23:34

with the metal, on the ground and everything.

23:37

And I have no right to talk or to move.

23:41

Interviewer

How did you feel about

23:48

that conversation after it was over, what did you think?

23:49

-

I thought that there will be no help.

23:55

If the Belgian

23:59

Authority.

24:03

Authority?

24:04

Interviewer

Mm-hmm.

24:05

-

Say like this.

24:08

It's finished.

24:11

I came before the Moroccans,

24:14

but the Moroccans came and now starting.

24:15

They will say we will help the set,

24:20

they said, and they lied.

24:21

They said, we will help you,

24:24

we take you before, the summer out.

24:25

They said this.

24:28

Anyway,

24:30

but I know they're liars, very good.

24:32

We know this very good.

24:34

Its nothing to...

24:35

They can... If they take you,

24:39

they will take you to the (indistinct).

24:41

So what Americans said to them, they will do.

24:46

But if a Belgian said this,

24:49

finished.

24:54

They said like Belgium is with America, then what is this?

24:59

Is she scared for America or something?

25:02

At least,

25:05

what can I say?

25:07

I don't know.

25:08

But there are seen now, even now I came to Belgium.

25:10

I see they follow the politics of America and everything.

25:14

Like I can say, I could say,

25:18

they adore America or something.

25:26

They pray to America.

25:27

This is their god I think.

25:29

How do you say it?

25:36

Facilitator

Worship.

25:38

-

They worship America I think.

25:39

Even if she's good, or wrong,

25:43

I thought before, when I was in Belgium,

25:45

before when I was at school.

25:47

They give me some things about the Indians,

25:50

and they say America did this and that.

25:52

I says, "Yeah, this is very bad."

25:54

But now I see they come

25:56

and they see you in chuckles,

25:59

and you have no rights.

26:01

You have no rights to talk to your family.

26:03

You have no rights to talk, even with your neighbor.

26:06

You don't...

26:09

The food that they give you is, I don't know what it is.

26:11

And they come and then they say,

26:15

"Yes,

26:18

terrorist."

26:19

And they say, America is, we can do nothing,

26:21

is America.

26:24

But the talk before I was in Belgium,

26:25

I saw this everything's changed, I think after 2001,

26:29

I don't know,

26:36

is it changed or not.

26:38

I asked this...

26:39

These two.

26:42

Interviewer

Are you saying you felt more hopeless

26:45

after the Belgian

26:47

visitors came?

26:51

That you felt worse?

26:52

-

Yes.

26:54

Interviewer

How did you endure?

26:58

How did you manage to endure and survive

26:59

in that... In a way you were feeling?

27:03

What kept you going?

27:05

-

I was living the day.

27:08

I don't think about the next day, I was living the day.

27:13

Interviewer

And that would keep you going?

27:19

-

It was my religion, I was reading the Quran.

27:21

I was trying to make at the time, the best of it.

27:26

What do you have.

27:31

And we trust on God.

27:34

Interviewer

Hmm.

27:37

-

And he helped us.

27:38

Interviewer

Did you think you'd ever get out?

27:42

(chuckles) I never thought.

27:45

Interviewer

You never thought?

27:46

-

No, never.

27:47

They said that it follows the day.

27:49

They say you are here, and you will never come out,

27:50

that's what they said.

27:53

But there's one thing is good in our religion.

27:56

We trust in God, and he knows the future.

27:58

Not them, they're human like us.

28:02

We don't worry, we don't worry about it.

28:06

Interviewer

Hmm.

28:09

Did you ever see doctors when you were in Guantanamo?

28:14

-

I think so.

28:18

Interviewer

Do you know why, do you remember why?

28:21

-

I saw doctors, I think they were more,

28:23

people who were trying like experiments.

28:26

(indistinct) doctors, I don't know.

28:29

Interviewer

What happened with the doctors?

28:33

-

Because I'm confused, if you talk about Guantanamo, yes?

28:36

Interviewer

Yes.

28:38

-

The first time they took me to one.

28:42

The first day to take me to doctors

28:49

they give me some, they take some blood,

28:52

and they taking my clothes down,

28:55

some woman, anyway to show something.

28:58

I don't know what they want.

29:02

And,

29:05

they ask me, "What do you have?

29:07

Do you have trouble?"

29:08

They give me some medicine some thick medicine, some three.

29:10

One of them was for malaria, I think.

29:15

But the others, I don't know,

29:17

because after that day for months,

29:19

I hear songs, all the time I hear songs.

29:21

I don't know what it was,

29:25

but for three months I think, or four,

29:27

I was all the time hearing songs.

29:28

It don't know what it was,

29:31

because I was long time dizzy, a little bit.

29:32

I felt between normal and dizzy all the time.

29:37

I don't know what, when I ask the doctors.

29:40

They say to me, drink water, it was a good one.

29:42

Interviewer

Did other detainees tell you

29:52

they had the same experience?

29:53

-

Yes.

29:56

All of them got something that these or more.

29:58

Interviewer

Did you go to a dentist?

30:06

-

Yes.

30:08

Interviewer

Why?

30:09

-

After...

30:10

The third delegation,

30:12

or the four delegation a dozen came.

30:14

That time,

30:18

they said to me,

30:22

"You have a problem?"

30:24

I said, "Yes, I have this tooth."

30:25

They said, "We will talk with them,"

30:32

The third time, or the next time, I don't remember.

30:34

But after that they didn't,

30:38

but it still maybe after three months, or something,

30:43

before I think four months before I was released.

30:45

That time they put something in my...

30:50

So they take me to the dentist,

30:53

after three hours and something.

30:57

Interviewer

Why did the Belgian come,

31:02

again and again, why did they keep coming to visit you?

31:05

-

I think they came to interrogate me.

31:09

They wanted to please those who they worship, you know.

31:14

So they come to Belgium, the say something.

31:21

And they want to put me in that case, I think.

31:24

So, the Americans are pleased.

31:27

So this man, we give him to Belgium.

31:29

He will be in jail, something like that I think.

31:32

Now after I was in, I came fully.

31:36

I found out it is like that.

31:39

It was like this.

31:41

They wanted a reality.

31:43

They were, they were with,

31:44

they were with the Americans in this case

31:46

Interviewer

Were Americans in the room,

31:52

when the Belgians were in the room?

31:54

-

Yes.

31:56

The first time they were the next time

31:59

some soldiers, they stay outside with the camera.

32:01

And the next time also

32:05

with the camera, they stay inside, but there are glass

32:07

from the left and the side and the right side.

32:10

So they can see what they do.

32:14

Interviewer

Did you ever visit with the red cross?

32:18

-

Yes.

32:20

Interviewer

Were they helpful?

32:21

-

They do what they could, I think

32:25

Interviewer

What did they do?

32:28

-

They write or names.

32:30

They give us some paper to set

32:33

or they say, we have your name now.

32:36

They did something.

32:39

They give the example, my letters to my family

32:40

Even the Americans don't give it directly,

32:46

stood for eight months or something

32:48

On that sometimes a letter comes to me from my family.

32:51

It takes eight months to come or more.

32:53

Or sometimes this is

32:58

with lines on it so we can't what they right there.

33:00

Interviewer

Do you know what was blacked out?

33:05

When words they blacked out?

33:07

-

I don't know

33:09

-

What words were left.

33:10

-

You know what they do?

33:11

They black it out

33:13

and then they copy it.

33:16

Then they give you the copy.

33:18

Didn't give you the original.

33:19

So you can't read anything.

33:23

Interviewer

So would the names

33:28

of the people who wrote to you, would that still be there?

33:30

That's what else would be there

33:33

besides what else would be in the letter

33:34

that you remember?

33:37

-

Maybe some news.

33:38

I don't know.

33:39

Maybe they have, maybe I have some lawyer or something.

33:40

I don't know.

33:43

Interviewer

Were you ever in isolation?

33:48

-

Yes.

33:50

Interviewer

Why?

33:51

-

I stood in Camp Echo

33:54

for two weeks

33:58

and this camp is only

34:01

like this room, like this bigger than this one.

34:02

You have a cell in it.

34:05

So that you are alone.

34:08

Understand.

34:10

I saw 40.

34:12

You know, you don't have anyone.

34:13

You don't see anyone.

34:15

Nothing.

34:17

Only the soldiers when they came to give food

34:18

or the interventions, that's all.

34:21

Nobody.

34:25

You should try it.

34:30

Interviewer

How did you survive that?

34:35

-

Like I told you

34:39

sometimes how you say it

34:45

you have something.

34:48

Maybe they don't understand.

34:50

You are with your God.

34:52

I was alone with my God.

34:55

So I have time to be with my God.

34:57

My creator.

35:02

I think about Him.

35:04

And in His word.

35:05

Interviewer

Do you know why they put you in isolation?

35:11

-

After that they take me free.

35:15

Is two weeks they want to make pressure to take anything.

35:19

Any lie for these will be there.

35:24

Then one day they say they take me to the airplane.

35:29

They do some plastic on my hand.

35:34

The same day.

35:38

They take me to the airplane.

35:40

I see the Soviet delegations

35:41

whatever, whether from the Belgium, Belgium delegation.

35:43

And they take me in the airplane

35:48

so

35:53

Interviewer

Did you believe you were going home?

35:54

-

Not yet.

35:57

Like some (indistinct)every night when

35:59

I'm inside my house and I closed the door.

36:02

If I don't close the door

36:05

I don't believe I'm free.

36:06

But I still feel not free.

36:10

Interviewer

Why?

36:14

-

I still feel

36:17

because Guantanamo is still there.

36:19

Still people out there.

36:22

everywhere I go they interrogate me.

36:24

Any country they stopped me

36:28

They ask me questions.

36:28

Like the interrogation is still gone.

36:34

Like yesterday I came from England, some of this

36:37

and my Fife was talking with me, asking me questions.

36:41

So I'm not free to do what I want.

36:48

How I wish, wherever I go,

36:51

They wanted to have to talk to me.

36:54

To harass me.

36:56

They can't live without that, I think.

36:58

Interviewer

What kind of questions they ask you today?

37:02

Today?

37:07

This was yesterday.

37:08

Interviewer

Yesterday?

37:09

-

Yes.

37:10

Interviewer

What kind of questions do they ask?

37:12

-

They even asked me, you know, very bad

37:15

about some detainees.

37:19

There were some extra attorneys in Guantanamo.

37:20

They were released in their country and everything.

37:24

And they ask about them.

37:26

Can you believe it?

37:27

"What was your purpose here in England?"

37:29

What were you doing here?

37:31

What do you want?

37:34

Something like this.

37:36

And then he wants some advices,

37:37

like advices.

37:40

From some exited any,

37:41

I don't know what advice does he want?

37:42

Like this interrogation in reality.

37:46

And even when I came in Belgium, the same thing in the

37:55

in the border, they took my ID then they put there.

37:59

Then they say something like, what, what shall I do

38:03

with this?

38:08

What I need to do then the other one that says

38:09

"I must write this and this."

38:11

I think in some, I don't remember some number nine.

38:12

He said something I don't remember.

38:15

And then I asked him, "Is there something?"

38:17

They say, "No, no, no. Is there a sign about the sign me?

38:20

I was in the being consent.

38:24

Facilitator

And I wanted (indistinct)

38:26

-

Something like that.

38:31

So I'm I want (indistinct)

38:33

They say no.

38:35

This only, well, what were you doing in England?

38:37

In London?

38:42

Yes, I was in London.

38:43

What you were doing there?

38:45

Yes, I was in cage prisoner, yes.

38:46

We, before some cases, you know, for X detainees,

38:49

from Guantanamo, when they have for the harassment

38:52

when they go somewhere, they are arrest something

38:56

like that.

38:58

So they don't stop.

39:03

One time I go to Germany, this taught me three times.

39:06

Every hour.

39:10

One hour after one hour, three times.

39:12

Interviewer

On the street or where?

39:15

-

On the way.

39:17

Interviewer

On the way to the airport or where?

39:19

-

No, no.

39:21

I was only traveling in it.

39:22

And three times they stopped me.

39:24

Every one hour they stopped me.

39:28

Interviewer

On the road or-

39:32

-

On the road yes on the road.

39:33

Interviewer

And they asked you the same questions

39:35

or what questions did they ask?

39:37

-

They look... they say, they show me all day.

39:38

We are the worshipers of America.

39:42

So don't worry everywhere America has worshipers.

39:46

And they will do what she says.

39:49

And we will harass you everywhere,

39:54

because I would go this America.

39:56

Interviewer

And how did they know that you're

40:01

were in Guantanamo?

40:03

-

What?

40:07

Interviewer

How do they know

40:08

that you were in Guantanamo.

40:09

-

I don't think that everyone knows, but they stopped me.

40:10

So they got something.

40:14

Someone told them to stop.

40:16

They're worshipers, the worshipers.

40:18

I think so, I don't know, but that is the reality.

40:21

Like I told you, I America don't want to change.

40:26

They killed the Indians,

40:29

they take the lands and then they have sort of

40:30

about after a hundred or 200 years.

40:33

Understand.

40:37

They are still in reservates.

40:38

There I don't know.

40:40

But after that they searched for other victims

40:41

because America's finished now.

40:44

They have no resources there.

40:45

So they need to get something else somewhere else.

40:47

And so they have now Muslims,

40:51

they are now busy with Muslims.

40:53

They take them to Guantanamo

40:56

and then they would sorrow about after that they would cry

40:59

but there will be other victims.

41:01

I show sorry.

41:03

And they were trials about them after 100 years.

41:05

But the same politic is God and America.

41:07

And that is what I think they never changed.

41:11

It's still the same.

41:16

Interviewer

When Obama was elected

41:18

did you think that would be a change?

41:20

-

No, I didn't.

41:21

I was sure he will never do.

41:23

He will never change.

41:25

I was sure nothing will happen.

41:27

Interviewer

Why? Didn't people believe Obama?

41:29

Why didn't you?

41:32

-

Because they know.

41:33

Better by what I saw in the mirror,

41:34

In Guantanamo.

41:36

When I taught this country was the human rights was talking

41:38

about justice on the wall for the world

41:43

and everything that peace for the world.

41:44

And this is the one who abandoned all this human rights.

41:46

All everything.

41:51

So they didn't care Obama or not.

41:52

There's only faces they change

41:54

but the reality Guantanamo is still there.

41:56

And now it's still

41:59

The scientists people not, not only that is the

42:02

problem is these people we know there are people

42:05

in Guantanamo, but people are, there are people in Baqarah.

42:10

There are people in Morocco and in the secrets secret

42:14

there are secret 'Guantanamos' we don't know anywhere.

42:18

Some are in Europe, Eastern Europe,

42:22

somewhere in the middle east,

42:24

some in North Africa, some in the far East even.

42:27

But this is not the,

42:30

that is the thing.

42:34

You heard my son, but those we don't

42:36

we never know what happened to them.

42:39

Maybe they died there

42:40

but we never, we only know when, when someone

42:41

of them with some miracle, he come out and he tell about it.

42:45

But the reality is this.

42:51

America she thinks she has the right to do what she wants.

42:53

But I tell her, I tell to this.

42:57

How you call them?

43:03

The Congress.

43:06

I tell them I've got do what he wants

43:08

and he will only lose.

43:11

Have you still, if you don't go back and don't stay

43:13

you stay in your own just

43:16

you will only lose and lose and lose and lose.

43:18

Interviewer

When Obama said he would close Guantanamo

43:25

did you believe that?

43:27

-

I told you I don't.

43:30

I didn't believe that.

43:30

I, the first thing that came

43:32

to my head is he used only to get some votes.

43:33

Interviewer

He used what?

43:37

-

They can...He only use it to get some votes

43:37

for some (mumbles) votes.

43:40

Some votes

43:45

to maybe cool down some Arabic countries,

43:47

or some, the Amir of the third world, I think.

43:52

But reality, he didn't, he didn't.

43:55

He was not, he was never thought about to change it.

43:59

Even I will say to him,

44:04

think about your grandfathers.

44:05

What happened to them?

44:08

It's the same?

44:10

What the people in Guantanamo got in this modern world.

44:11

Facilitator

Sometimes I ask people the question

44:18

that you might find surprising,

44:21

was there anything positive about being in Guantanamo.

44:24

-

Yes.

44:28

Facilitator

Anything positive about being in Guantanamo?

44:29

Is that?

44:34

-

Yeah, I understand.

44:35

Interviewer

You understand?

44:36

-

There is.

44:38

Interviewer

There is?

44:40

-

Like

44:42

We know that the lies, the lies of America

44:44

That is what we get when you go into... the other thing is

44:50

that that you go, you come to the conclusion

44:56

they don't care about art are outside of USA.

44:58

The world for them in the human rights for the USA

45:02

and outside is not nothing.

45:04

The only outside of is only benefits.

45:07

They don't care.

45:12

If they have benefits with people, they are their allies.

45:14

They are no benefits than the enemy.

45:18

Like Bush said, "We are with us or against us."

45:20

That's how I tell him we are with God

45:25

and He's with us.

45:27

and He's against unjust.

45:30

And all those were made on those two people

45:32

they will get there.

45:34

Even at life.

45:36

Believe me, they will get it even in their life.

45:38

I don't know what happened

45:41

to him, but I am sure he's getting his punishment.

45:42

Interviewer

So your opinion

45:49

of America has changed a lot since Guantanamo?

45:50

-

To the world,

45:56

yes.

45:58

Interviewer

Your opinion.

45:59

-

Yes.

46:00

Because it's still, if people, you know

46:01

like you said before we talk, if you say

46:02

that people don't care, what happens in Guantanamo

46:05

this is very bad,

46:08

very sad.

46:11

And yeah, I told many people here.

46:12

I'm very sad

46:14

that bills don't that the bills and people don't...

46:15

I mean the bills and government, not the people,

46:18

they don't care about what happened in Guantanamo and now

46:22

and they follow the politics of America.

46:26

I'm very sad about that.

46:29

I'm not angry.

46:30

Very sad because they thought these people were the...

46:32

Are for human rights.

46:35

And they said that.

46:36

But the reality, they don't care even.

46:37

When they are same, they don't care even when you are,

46:40

you are Muslim or something, they don't care about you.

46:43

They even make rules against you.

46:45

-

To put you in crime,

46:55

they've even changed a law to make you criminal.

46:57

Even in the Lord is no, you are not a criminal.

47:01

They want to change the law to make you a criminal even.

47:03

It's very bad because this laws will be

47:07

in the future will be against them also.

47:09

They are only their freedom.

47:11

They're making the freedom smaller and smaller and smaller.

47:13

And then they will be stuck.

47:17

Understand.

47:20

Because when you change something only

47:21

because someone has other ideology or something

47:23

then you have no, that means you don't believe

47:27

in what in your system.

47:30

It means you don't believe in your system

47:34

and you have doubts about it.

47:35

And that is you...

47:39

And all this stuff...

47:40

When you do this, you only will take the freedom

47:41

of your people first and it will be a cancer in the future.

47:46

And then we go back to the dark ages.

47:52

I don't know what must happened after that evolution.

47:55

Interviewer

What about the Muslims in America?

48:00

You think America cares about them?

48:02

-

Like I told you

48:07

-

America, she,

48:08

America only cares about the USA and themselves.

48:09

So you have free.

48:12

They say, I don't know.

48:13

They have freedom

48:14

of speech that, that you can say what you want.

48:15

I don't know.

48:17

But I don't believe it.

48:18

No, I don't think because I didn't go.

48:19

I'm, maybe I'm even forbidden to go to America.

48:20

I don't know how the Muslims are treated there.

48:24

I don't know.

48:26

After 12, 11, I don't know what.

48:27

After Guantanamo 11, September 11.

48:30

I don't know what happened.

48:32

What they do to the Muslims.

48:35

I don't know.

48:36

I heard many Muslims are there in jail,

48:37

still in the United States.

48:40

They are still in jail for no reason.

48:44

Only because they are Muslim.

48:45

And they no any

48:47

evidence against them.

48:52

Even the sister,(indistinct) is still there for no reason.

48:54

And she they put her, I would say they put her in.

49:00

They give her I don't know how many years

49:06

for something she never did.

49:08

And for no,

49:11

for no,

49:12

for wrong,

49:13

how you say it?

49:15

I don't know English.

49:16

They have her in

49:20

(speaks in foreign language)

49:23

Facilitator

She was jailed without proof,

49:33

without reason.

49:36

And the woman--

49:37

-

For fake reasons that she

49:40

they accused her about things she never did.

49:42

Only because she's Muslim in some country.

49:45

Interviewer

Would you like to visit the United States?

49:52

If they let you visit?

49:54

-

Yes.

49:57

Interviewer

You weren't worried.

49:57

-

I would like to see the people.

49:59

To know how they think are the different government

50:01

or is there some difference or not?

50:05

Interviewer

You think people are different

50:10

in each country?

50:12

Yes.

50:13

Many.

50:14

The most, the most countries

50:15

they see that the governments, they mislead them.

50:16

They use them for the benefits.

50:20

They don't care what they think.

50:23

They vote for them.

50:24

But after that, they don't, they only have their plans.

50:25

They don't care about their people in reality.

50:28

Interviewer

I just want to ask you a few more questions

50:32

about Guantanamo.

50:34

Did you ever see anybody try to commit suicide?

50:36

-

I said I saw someone who tried to commit suicide.

50:40

Yes.

50:43

I think he's here in Belgium.

50:44

Interviewer

And did the authorities tried to stop it?

50:47

Yes.

50:52

-

They try us.

50:56

They come and open the door and they take him,

50:57

they cut this.

51:00

-

How did he try to...

51:01

How did he try to kill himself?

51:02

-

This one, he beginning he takes his head

51:04

and he begins to...

51:07

On the metal.

51:10

Till blood comes out from his head.

51:11

Interviewer

And you saw that?

51:17

Yes.

51:18

Interviewer

And was there anything you could do?

51:19

-

I can't do nothing in the cell?

51:22

What can I do?

51:24

You can say don't do it.

51:28

Is that it?

51:32

Interviewer

Did you see other people get hurt

51:35

while you were in Guantanamo?

51:38

-

Yes.

51:39

Beaten I mean.

51:40

Yes many.

51:42

many, many in Kandahar,

51:44

so many (indistinct)

51:47

In Guantanamo itself.

51:50

Or else someone brought it, they take him

51:51

they would be bringing him

51:55

from back from the, from interrogation.

51:57

And after that, they beat him

52:00

because he has some, how you say this sleeper,

52:01

sheep sheep.

52:05

I don't know how you call them.

52:05

Facilitator

The slippers.

52:08

-

Slippers, yes slippers

52:09

The slippers, they walk, he walked

52:11

with them and something struck him and he fell down.

52:13

And they were catching.

52:17

You know, this is metal so that he began to fall down

52:18

and they're scared.

52:23

And they're beaten senseless,

52:24

but his face

52:27

they break even someplace in his,

52:28

I would call this

52:31

Facilitator

Jaw,

52:32

-

Jaw,

52:33

Facilitator

Jaw, Jaw.

52:34

-

Jaw.

52:35

Interviewer

And you saw that?

52:37

-

Yes.

52:39

Interviewer

Could you say anything there?

52:40

-

Brothers were crying on it

52:43

wherever we make him take a deal.

52:45

Some people not on the metal.

52:48

I would say drawing on the metal

52:52

like this boxing on the metal on this.

52:54

But other scribe.

52:56

There's some brothers make Congress flag like this.

52:58

I think you can do nothing.

53:04

If they come, they come, they beat you.

53:05

And then they are one's looking.

53:08

That's all.

53:10

Interviewer

Did you see people going on hunger strike?

53:13

-

Yes

53:15

Interviewer

Did you go on hunger strike?

53:16

-

Yes.

53:18

Interviewer

Did you get forced fed?

53:19

-

No, I'm not... Yes, but it's after that.

53:22

It's only one at a time when I was there.

53:26

The next.

53:30

The next year over, was when brother for the first time.

53:31

And he did almost like four months.

53:37

And they put... They forced him.

53:40

He is the first one he did, maybe so.

53:42

And after that, eight months after that, I saw him again.

53:44

And he was still hunger strike.

53:48

I don't know if he stopped or not, but I came out.

53:51

I came free after two years and a half.

53:54

And they were still, I don't know what happened

53:57

to him, but he was the first one who began this.

53:59

Interviewer

Do you know what nationality he was?

54:03

-

Palestine, Palestine.

54:05

-

And did he tell you how it was Pakistan?

54:08

Did he tell you how it was... Palestinian?

54:12

-

Palestinian?

54:15

-

And did he tell you how it was,

54:18

how he suffered as a hunger strike?

54:21

Did he tell you anything?

54:23

-

They put it in his nose, in his stomach.

54:25

Then one day finish every,

54:29

Maybe every three days they put

54:32

in him like this, then they take with force.

54:34

So they want to show him they're angry

54:37

because he don't want to eat.

54:39

But they didn't want some people to talk to him.

54:41

Maybe he has some sickness

54:45

psychologic sickness or something, but it was not.

54:46

I talk with them.

54:49

I talk with them.

54:51

I tried to understand why you do this and that.

54:52

I try to tell them, even stop everything.

54:55

I told them one time he want to come next to me.

54:58

And then the change him,

55:02

and I never saw him, but he never stopped.

55:03

Interviewer

And do you know why he was so angry?

55:07

-

Because the treatment.

55:11

Can you understand someone when they beat you

55:15

with your head on the wall?

55:18

Can you understand this?

55:20

Or someone takes this

55:21

share you close up and they put on your head

55:22

or some of someone who did put you in, they beat you

55:27

with this on your, on your, on your neck, or they stand

55:31

on your knees when you're on underground.

55:35

Or they put you in the metal

55:40

and they leave you there for hours and they close.

55:42

And then they put it there, the air go higher

55:45

and louder and like this.

55:49

And you have no right.

55:53

You are only number.

55:55

and you have no right to met.

55:56

You have no loyalty.

56:00

You have no right to call your family.

56:01

You have no right to anything outside.

56:03

You have no right to borrow newspapers nothing.

56:05

What do you think?

56:09

Interviewer

Is this something you could say

56:13

would be the worst?

56:14

Is it

56:15

is it possible to identify the worst experience you had

56:16

while you were there?

56:20

-

What I (indistinct) yes.

56:22

They had children there.

56:24

That was the worst thing.

56:27

Next to me was three times.

56:30

One for I think from Africa was, he was two, six, nine.

56:32

I think it was something 14 years or 16.

56:37

I don't remember.

56:42

And one

56:43

from Afghani, he was also from Paktika and he was 14.

56:45

And one also, also from Paktika he was 15.

56:50

That's the worst.

56:55

Even in their law

56:58

you can't put these people in jail and they did.

56:59

And they beat them the same understand.

57:06

And it was something worse.

57:09

Also people over the age of the eighties,

57:10

one man was the last one.

57:14

They say he was 95.

57:16

I think he was some people didn't say he was hundred

57:18

and five.

57:21

Some say, you know, he's all about 115,

57:22

but I say

57:24

I say the last is 95.

57:25

He even, maybe sometimes he drink from water.

57:28

And sometimes he drink

57:31

from the other side, number one.

57:32

And number two, if it's sometimes when we don't remember.

57:35

And they also put them in the pit.

57:39

and the same, like the strong people.

57:40

Interviewer

You saw that?

57:44

-

Yes.

57:46

And that is not normal.

57:47

I think that is the worst.

57:52

And after that, you heard about they ask you.

57:55

In the interrogation, they asked her about a woman.

57:57

I was thinking at that time, you are not sorry.

58:02

You don't...

58:05

I was thinking you have not enough

58:10

what you did with us that you ask about women and children

58:12

and this what he wants still.

58:15

Understand.

58:21

Interviewer

Where were they asking about a woman.

58:22

-

They say are they terrorist?

58:27

(indistinct) terrorist or something?

58:30

And for proof about us, if you have something

58:34

Interviewer

And they show they were treated the same way

58:42

as the adults?

58:46

-

Yes, they would treat the the same and maybe worse.

58:47

One of them was, was four months in isolation.

58:50

Interviewer

How do you know?

58:56

-

Yes, I know, because I heard about him.

58:58

And when we ask about him from block to block, he was

58:59

in isolation or he came next to me.

59:02

He said, I'm maybe for two months.

59:04

I was two months in exhalation like this, you know.

59:07

What you can do.

59:11

And someone comes next to you.

59:12

He said

59:14

he tell you some, sometimes a story, what happened to him.

59:15

Interviewer

Did they go home?

59:30

Those children?

59:30

-

One of them at when I was there, I heard he was free.

59:34

but maybe then he was maybe 16 or something.

59:38

And the other one he did

59:42

he was not, at least after he was released after he was mad.

59:44

Even after eight years or something.

59:49

Interviewer

He went mad?

59:51

He was, he was child.

59:53

When he come out,

59:54

he was mad.

59:56

-

And even sick in his stomach.

59:59

Interviewer

Johnny, do you have a question

1:00:09

before I go on?

1:00:10

Johnny

No, I don't have one right now.

1:00:19

Interviewer

When you got on the plane to go home,

1:00:24

did you then believe you were going home?

1:00:28

-

No.

1:00:31

Interviewer

Why not?

1:00:32

-

They talk to me in the airplane.

1:00:34

And when I was in the airplane they even

1:00:37

they said you can sit on the window, sit in the middle.

1:00:40

I thought this is only something changed

1:00:44

from place to place.

1:00:46

Even they are Belgian, you understand?

1:00:48

They put you in the middle.

1:00:51

There's a big airplane.

1:00:54

You know, you have two, three, two window

1:00:55

a big one, I think is some Sabine at something.

1:00:59

And there was one other brother that was,

1:01:03

he from Belgium from Brussels.

1:01:07

They put him before me.

1:01:09

They said, "You can't talk with each other."

1:01:11

(indistinct) of where you can talk sometimes

1:01:14

you say "Hello Salaam Aleikum"

1:01:16

or something, but you can't sit next to each other.

1:01:17

And next to me seats somewhat some of this.

1:01:22

from this country.

1:01:25

I don't know what you call them.

1:01:26

Federals.

1:01:31

Facilitator

Federal Police.

1:01:33

-

Yes

1:01:34

Facilitator

The federal Police of Belgium.

1:01:35

-

Federal Police of Belgium.

1:01:37

So they sit somewhere there and there.

1:01:38

One seat looks to me.

1:01:40

And someone like this.

1:01:43

So we couldn't look

1:01:45

even though we knew, we couldn't see where we were.

1:01:47

This Island too was our prison.

1:01:50

You couldn't see what it was.

1:01:52

Interviewer

So what'd you think was happening?

1:01:55

-

I didn't know.

1:01:58

When they came to Belgium, they take me two to one apart

1:01:58

to one office, big office, apartment, and one apartment.

1:02:03

And I think is their office, federal office.

1:02:09

And they interrogated me for, for all the night.

1:02:13

So I was thinking I was still in America as I was answering.

1:02:17

I was answering them like America.

1:02:21

I didn't know what I have right to start to, to not talk.

1:02:24

I have the right of solicitor.

1:02:29

(indistinct)

1:02:32

Okay.

1:02:34

I have rights for the solicitor.

1:02:35

I have right to not talk with them.

1:02:36

And this, I didn't know.

1:02:37

So they use it.

1:02:39

They use like this didn't even tell me my rights.

1:02:42

When you normally, when you take a Belgium or I think also

1:02:46

in your country, you say you tell someone

1:02:49

when you have detain

1:02:50

and you tell them, his rights first

1:02:53

but they didn't tell me.

1:02:54

When we came here in Belgium,

1:03:00

how I know in Belgium,

1:03:03

because they come out from the airplane,

1:03:04

I see the flag of Belgium there.

1:03:07

So no airport something,

1:03:11

But I see many people that are sent

1:03:12

But even that they did give us break,

1:03:14

to prayers.

1:03:20

We didn't even pray for three minutes.

1:03:21

They didn't give us.

1:03:24

Interviewer

Was there a lawyer? Your lawyer around?

1:03:26

-

No, my lawyer, he didn't, I didn't see him all day...

1:03:28

When next day.

1:03:32

And two days after when they take me free, they let me go

1:03:34

to what I was go to the...

1:03:37

I had to sign something.

1:03:38

I don't know why.

1:03:42

They have conditions for my freedom.

1:03:42

Interviewer

What were they?

1:03:46

-

Because I was in Guantanamo I got conditions for freedom.

1:03:48

Even I have no...

1:03:52

(speaks in foreign language)

1:03:54

blood

1:03:55

Facilitator

(indistinct) record prior...

1:03:57

Interviewer

Criminal record?

1:04:01

Facilitator

Yeah.

1:04:02

-

That I have conditions I did have in Belgium conditions

1:04:03

because I have white paper, you know?

1:04:08

So I have this

1:04:13

they got conditions

1:04:16

for my freedom.

1:04:18

I couldn't go out from if I have to every week to go

1:04:20

to sign.

1:04:24

And this has to follow for me like this for one year.

1:04:25

I didn't get my passport only after four years when

1:04:30

Bush was gone.

1:04:33

And before that, I could only travel on tour

1:04:35

in Europe.

1:04:38

And that was always harassed.

1:04:41

Every month come, someone have this

1:04:44

how you call it.

1:04:46

States security

1:04:49

comes to me to meet me

1:04:50

and ask when, when one of the Americans came here

1:04:52

I think countries are less or something.

1:04:56

He came to my home

1:04:58

because they have conditions you must...

1:05:00

This one was in Guantanamo.

1:05:02

You must no worries because the Americans are coming

1:05:04

to Belgium like this.

1:05:07

Interviewer

Really?

1:05:11

-

Yes.

1:05:12

They have conditions.

1:05:13

I don't know.

1:05:14

I heard from some city centers, they said,

1:05:15

"Everyone was freed from, Guantanamo

1:05:18

or re-preated."

1:05:22

I was re-preated, I was not freed.

1:05:23

Okay, so to tell me

1:05:26

I'm free after that.

1:05:29

So that was re-preated to Belgium.

1:05:31

They say everyone who was freed or released

1:05:34

from Guantanamo, you must give us everything

1:05:36

about him and his family and his everyone.

1:05:42

He meets.

1:05:47

He must give him information about them.

1:05:47

And they think nobody will ask

1:05:49

about you, information about you.

1:05:51

Maybe because you meet me now.

1:05:54

Interviewer

You think?

1:05:57

-

Yes, very bad.

1:05:58

I think they would.

1:06:02

I don't know.

1:06:04

Maybe they will ask about you.

1:06:05

Then they have to know your relations also.

1:06:05

And this and your neighbor also

1:06:09

he's from Belgium of course,

1:06:15

you will be a little bit better.

1:06:19

(speaks in foreign language)

1:06:21

Interviewer

Do they still follow you around?

1:06:25

Do they still... Why'd you decide every week.

1:06:27

Do they still come check on you?

1:06:31

-

I told you this, this condition was for one year.

1:06:33

Interviewer

So

1:06:39

were you glad to be home?

1:06:41

-

Glad to be home.

1:06:49

Interviewer

Were you happy?

1:06:49

You were home.

1:06:50

Were you happy?

1:06:52

You came back to Belgium.

1:06:52

-

I can say I can be happy

1:06:55

but I still, if this is Guantanamo's not closed,

1:06:59

I can't be happy.

1:07:02

I can say I'm happy that saw my family.

1:07:04

They're okay.

1:07:06

And everything

1:07:06

but I'm not happy because those didn't see their family

1:07:08

and they are forbidden from their rights.

1:07:11

So I can't.

1:07:15

Interviewer

Do you think they'll ever close Guantanamo?

1:07:16

-

I'm very sure he will be closed.

1:07:20

But,

1:07:23

the future is concerned.

1:07:26

But I don't think they have, I don't think

1:07:28

about these government if she wants to close it.

1:07:30

I don't think she wants to close it.

1:07:33

She had no intention to closed, but I am very sure

1:07:35

it will close and they will also get her this.

1:07:39

Oh, we did sorrow to these people.

1:07:42

They will get that justice one day.

1:07:44

Every one of them, I began from Bush

1:07:48

to Thomasville

1:07:53

to Colin Powell, and now to Obama who is

1:07:55

killing everywhere

1:08:01

people

1:08:02

Interviewer

They've been expressing more (indistinct)

1:08:07

-

I don't think so.

1:08:10

Interviewer

What can you say to America

1:08:17

that would make us...

1:08:20

That would make you feel better about America?

1:08:22

What would you wanna say to America?

1:08:25

-

I would say to her,

1:08:35

think about your people

1:08:36

and see for them well

1:08:39

for their conditions in your country

1:08:42

what happened to them

1:08:44

because every day

1:08:46

I think every 10 minutes does someone with crime is more

1:08:48

than they would die, the soldiers dying outside the country.

1:08:51

So try to fix the problems

1:08:55

in your countries first and leave the others.

1:08:57

Anyway, every time you wear many crimes

1:09:02

every three minutes.

1:09:06

Normally every 10 minutes someone is killed.

1:09:07

So I don't know.

1:09:11

I'm talking about one.

1:09:13

I don't know how many, maybe you have no better statistics.

1:09:15

So thinking about the troubles you have in your country

1:09:19

and leave the others, they will fix their problem.

1:09:22

Interviewer

Is there something I didn't ask you that

1:09:31

that maybe you would like to share with us

1:09:34

for the future, for Americans, for the future, for anything?

1:09:37

Is this something I didn't ask you maybe?

1:09:41

-

Can you repeat the question?

1:09:47

Interviewer

Is this something I didn't ask you

1:09:50

but maybe there's something you wanna tell us.

1:09:53

There's something you wanna say.

1:09:56

Besides what I did ask you about your life,

1:09:57

or about America

1:10:01

or about the world that history might wanna hear.

1:10:02

Interviewer

I would say to them don't...

1:10:06

Read about Islam and don't listen

1:10:10

to your government because your government is against you,

1:10:13

Read about Islam and don't believe anything they say,

1:10:17

because Islam is very,

1:10:21

very far

1:10:25

from what they say, it's much different in they say.

1:10:26

It's something else they don't know.

1:10:31

So they should read

1:10:34

and find out in place to listen

1:10:36

to this governments.

1:10:39

Because in reality, their war is

1:10:40

only for their benefits they don't care.

1:10:44

And Muslims,

1:10:51

we are the new victims.

1:10:55

Because we are trees for them.

1:10:57

Because they don't like unjust.

1:10:58

They're against unjust, their religion is against unjust.

1:11:01

They want to live free.

1:11:06

All under God.

1:11:08

You understand everyone is the same.

1:11:11

The ruler and the citizen is the same.

1:11:14

Only the ruler has more responsibility.

1:11:17

The rulers are more responsibility

1:11:21

but the people in Islam, they must control the ruler.

1:11:23

And that is what happened.

1:11:26

And because that they are in Germany,

1:11:28

in our countries and need the support

1:11:29

of America.

1:11:32

Or the people who are not countries

1:11:34

in jail is because they are

1:11:35

against the ruler because they told them to correct them

1:11:38

because this, he must correct the ruler.

1:11:41

I say, you are wrong, but what he do, he put them in jail.

1:11:45

You understand?

1:11:49

And with the support of America

1:11:51

America is pleased, even George Bush, he said he was pleased

1:11:52

about the King of Morocco, because he's

1:11:55

like he said this, he helped them on the war on terror.

1:11:59

I don't know what terror they have in Morocco.

1:12:02

Interviewer

Have you been back to Morocco

1:12:07

since you were released?

1:12:08

-

I don't think I go to Morocco.

1:12:10

Interviewer

Why not?

1:12:13

-

Because my brother,

1:12:14

is there in jail because I was in Guantanamo.

1:12:15

The son of my sister is there in jail for 10 years now,

1:12:20

now it's eight years.

1:12:23

In Morocco

1:12:25

and they are tortures worse than what happened to me.

1:12:27

Interviewer

And they're there because

1:12:33

you were in Guantanamo?

1:12:34

-

Yes,

1:12:35

because I was in Guantanamo yes.

1:12:37

They have nothing.

1:12:40

Have you read the file

1:12:42

You will find out this

1:12:44

Hollywood story could be better.

1:12:48

Interviewer

Can you write to your brother in Guantanamo?

1:12:52

In Morocco?

1:12:55

-

Yes, I can.

1:12:56

That is a little bit different between

1:12:58

Morocco and Guantanamo.

1:13:00

They have this.

1:13:04

You can talk with him.

1:13:05

He can see his family.

1:13:07

You can see someone since in Guantanamo you don't have that.

1:13:09

You are no rights people without rights.

1:13:13

I don't know.

1:13:16

Was it not a missed international is not in America?

1:13:19

Facilitator

We have an office in America yes.

1:13:23

-

In origin and in America, no?

1:13:25

Facilitator

No it's English

1:13:27

-

It's English,

1:13:30

and this bond, they made some Laws

1:13:34

or how you say they made some

1:13:38

covenants huh?

1:13:42

They made some covenants together.

1:13:43

Interviewer

Who?

1:13:44

The world made some covenants together

1:13:45

against human rights and distincts.

1:13:48

Facilitator

Yes we have treaties-

1:13:51

-

Treaties

1:13:52

So America was also one of them who agreed

1:13:54

with this conditions.

1:13:56

Yes, but she is a place with no rights.

1:13:58

Facilitator

Yeah.

1:14:01

-

That's a strange thing.

1:14:03

Interviewer

There's nothing where you wanna say

1:14:08

Johnny is there anything further for the...

1:14:10

Johnny

Only the simple question I had is

1:14:14

is roughly how long do you believe you were in Guantanamo?

1:14:16

How many months and years?

1:14:22

-

Three years and five months.

1:14:24

Or six months.

1:14:30

Interviewer

Do you have a question?

1:14:32

Facilitator

I just want to confirm again

1:14:35

that you understood.

1:14:37

You know, you agreed

1:14:39

to this interview just so that we can show it

1:14:40

to people and we can let people see it.

1:14:45

You'll face won't be seen

1:14:48

but we can let people watch your video.

1:14:49

That's acceptable to you

1:14:51

right?

1:14:52

-

Yes.

1:14:53

Facilitator

Okay, and we might put some clips

1:14:54

of you on video, on our website as well

1:14:55

just so people can hear some of the things you've told us.

1:14:59

-

Yes

1:15:00

Facilitator

That's okay.

1:15:02

-

Yes.

1:15:04

Facilitator

Okay.

1:15:05

-

Also after I see it, of course.

1:15:05

Have you sent to me.

1:15:11

Interviewer

Yeah, you'd like me to send them

1:15:12

to you first?

1:15:13

-

Yes.

1:15:14

Interviewer

I would be glad to do that.

1:15:15

Of course.

1:15:16

Okay.

1:15:17

-

No problem.

1:15:18

Maybe in the future to show my face.

1:15:20

Interviewer

Oh, okay.

1:15:23

-

Maybe, I don't know.

1:15:24

I must trust you first.

1:15:26

Interviewer

Well, right now your face is in shadow.

1:15:28

-

I think you gave me a good,

1:15:30

how you say it.

1:15:34

Tooth about you.

1:15:40

In what you are doing?

1:15:42

I hope that there's some people there like this.

1:15:45

I did not do this.

1:15:49

I didn't think that is how much

1:15:50

I was hoping some people are there

1:15:55

while guess Guantanamo think America.

1:15:57

Now I heard from you the first I hope.

1:16:00

Interviewer

Thank you.

1:16:07

I appreciate that.

1:16:08

Thank you.

1:16:09

Johnny needs 20 seconds

1:16:13

of room tone where we just sit quietly

1:16:15

before we end the interview.

1:16:18

So do you want, maybe for 20 seconds,

1:16:19

we just sit quietly

1:16:24

and before we can turn off the interview

1:16:25

we just have to sit quietly for 20 seconds.

1:16:28

Do you want to explain that?

1:16:32

-

Yes I understand

1:16:32

Interviewer

You understand that.

1:16:33

Okay.

1:16:35

Johnny

Okay, we can (indistinct)

1:16:36

(indistinct)

1:16:50

Zemmouri, Mosa - Interview master file

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