Neely, Brandon - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Man

Rolling?

0:05

Interviewer

Okay, okay, good morning.

0:06

-

Morning.

0:08

Interviewer

We begin by just reading some introduction.

0:11

We are very grateful to you for participating

0:14

in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:18

We invite you to speak of your experiences and involvement

0:21

with detainees who were held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:24

We're hope to provide you with an opportunity

0:28

to tell your story in your own words.

0:30

We are creating an archive of stories

0:33

so that people in America and around the world

0:35

will have a better understanding of what you

0:37

and others have experienced and observed.

0:40

Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo,

0:45

and by telling your story you're contributing to history.

0:48

We appreciate your courage and your willingness

0:52

to speak with us.

0:54

If at any time during the interview

0:55

you'd like to take a break, just let us know.

0:57

And if there's anything that you say

0:59

that you want to retract, just let us know

1:02

and we can remove it as well.

1:04

And I'd like to begin with some general information

1:07

including your name

1:11

and your hometown,

1:14

your birth date,

1:17

your marital status and your education

1:20

and your current place of residence.

1:22

Could you just tell us that and then we can--

1:25

-

Oh yeah.

1:27

Interviewer

Your name and--

1:29

-

My name's Brandon Neely.

1:29

Interviewer

And your home town?

1:31

-

I live in Huntsville, Texas.

1:32

Interviewer

And your birth date?

1:34

-

June 2nd, 1980.

1:35

Interviewer

And that makes you?

1:37

-

30, I just turned 30.

1:39

Interviewer

And your marital status?

1:41

-

Married.

1:43

Interviewer

And your education?

1:44

-

High school, some college.

1:46

Interviewer

Okay, and you currently

1:48

live in Huntsville as well?

1:49

-

Yeah, live in Huntsville.

1:50

Interviewer

Well, I'd like to begin by describing

1:52

how you first joined the military and then

1:59

your training that you had before you went to Guantanamo.

2:01

Maybe you could just begin with a little background

2:06

before you went to Guantanamo.

2:08

What kind of training you had.

2:10

-

Training before I got to Guantanamo

2:13

was just pretty basic military police training.

2:14

Because at the time before 9/11,

2:17

was just military police training,

2:18

patrolling the streets, writing tickets just normal day

2:21

police officer stuff.

2:23

And we'd also go to the field, combat mission patrols,

2:24

just train on that.

2:27

Then when we went to Guantanamo,

2:29

I found out I was going to Guantanamo on a Saturday

2:30

and I left on the Sunday and there was no

2:33

special training to go.

2:35

Interviewer

Well, let me back up then.

2:38

When were you first, when did you first join the military?

2:39

-

I joined the military August of 2000.

2:42

Interviewer

And where were you trained

2:45

or where were you--

2:47

-

I went to basic training

2:48

and AIT, Advanced Individual Training

2:50

at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri for 17 weeks.

2:52

And then from there I was stationed at Fort Hood, Texas.

2:54

Interviewer

And then now we're in the fall of 2001.

2:57

When were you sent to Guantanamo?

3:02

When were you notified?

3:04

Can you give us those dates?

3:05

-

Well, Friday morning I had worked Thursday night

3:07

on the road patrolling at Fort hood.

3:09

Then Friday morning I was woken

3:11

in the barracks and I was asked

3:13

did I wanna volunteer for the couple of,

3:14

there was a couple of deployments

3:16

that were supposed to happen within the battalion,

3:17

and did I wanna volunteer?

3:19

So I volunteered to go.

3:20

So I went out that night and I was actually out at a,

3:21

at a club with some friends and my cell phone rang

3:23

and it was my platoon Sergeant told me get back

3:26

to the company.

3:27

So once I got back to the company,

3:28

I was told the next morning at seven o'clock

3:30

I was supposed to report to the other company next door.

3:32

Then once I got there Saturday morning

3:34

I was told Sunday morning, which was the very next day

3:36

that I'd be going to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

3:38

to run a detention facility.

3:41

And we'd find out more once we got there.

3:42

Interviewer

And do you know what date these were?

3:44

-

So the camp started on January 11th which was,

3:47

so I left on the eighth

3:51

and so we got in the country

3:54

on January 8th in the afternoon.

3:55

Interviewer

Did you know what Guantanamo

3:57

was at that point?

3:59

-

I had no clue.

4:00

I never heard of it, except for the movie with Tom Cruise.

4:01

And other than that, I didn't know what Guantanamo Bay was.

4:06

Interviewer

And did you know

4:08

that detainees were going to be brought there?

4:09

Had they told you that before you went to Guantanamo?

4:11

-

Yeah, we were just told there was gonna be detainees

4:14

coming that were found on the battlefield of Afghanistan

4:16

who were fighting the Americans.

4:19

From the perception I got from it was

4:21

all these guys were caught

4:23

with a rifle in their hand, fighting the Americans.

4:24

And we were told these are the guys that either

4:26

planned 9/11 or had something to do with 9/11

4:28

and would just kill us in a heartbeat.

4:30

Interviewer

Were you worried?

4:33

-

I was a little bit worried, but you know

4:35

being young and after 9/11, I was just pretty mad.

4:37

I was, I was kind of upset

4:40

that I was going to Guantanamo and not going

4:41

to Afghanistan to go to some war and do something.

4:42

'Cause you know, at that time I was really

4:46

in the mindset that something needed to happen.

4:47

There needs to be some kind of payback.

4:49

Interviewer

And what did you think you'd see

4:52

when you got to Guantanamo?

4:54

What kind of men did you think you'd see?

4:57

-

I had no clue.

5:00

I didn't know what a detainee or a terrorist looked like.

5:02

I didn't know if somebody show up looking like a monster

5:05

or looking like me, I had no clue.

5:08

It was just, just waiting for the unknown.

5:10

Interviewer

So could you describe what happened

5:13

when you arrived in Guantanamo on the eighth or--

5:15

-

Literally, we just got off the plane at Guantanamo

5:19

and we left Fort hood and it was cold.

5:22

We get to Guantanamo and it was like 85 degrees.

5:24

So we get out in all this winter gear,

5:26

sweating, we in process got on some buses.

5:27

It drove through downtown Guantanamo.

5:31

You know, you see the PX and the gyms and everything.

5:33

Then we were taken to the middle of nowhere.

5:36

And then the, in the background you'd see Camp X-Ray,

5:39

you could see the welders out there, welding.

5:41

Then we were just taken to this open area.

5:44

It was a landfill

5:46

they just dumped all the trash off to the side,

5:49

there was a bunch of tents.

5:50

We got off the buses, got an MRE and a cot

5:52

and went to sleep till next morning.

5:56

Then the next morning was when we were told

5:57

that detainees would be arriving in, in a couple of days.

6:01

They weren't sure.

6:04

And that's when we were told that, you know

6:05

these guys were fighting the Americans in Afghanistan

6:07

and this had never been done before.

6:10

We were making history.

6:11

There was no really standing operating procedure

6:13

was going on and then one of the first things

6:17

we were told at the time was, you know

6:19

Geneva Convention wouldn't be held in effect.

6:21

But you know, at that time I was like, "Okay."

6:23

I didn't really know what it was.

6:25

So I didn't care.

6:27

Interviewer

Were you trained in the Geneva Convention

6:28

during your basic training?

6:31

-

Yeah, they say they train you

6:33

but it's like a 20 minute class, just real quick, you know.

6:34

And they tell you you're never going to have to deal

6:37

with it because you were always trained that the military

6:39

and people in the military are never

6:41

gonna tell you to do nothing wrong anyways.

6:42

So why should a private really have to know the ins

6:43

and outs of the Geneva Convention?

6:45

Interviewer

Did you speak to your buddies

6:48

during those early days before the detainees came?

6:49

Were they, were they worried?

6:52

Were they concerned or were they ready to,

6:53

they wanted revenge also, you know,

6:56

what were they thinking?

6:58

-

I think everybody was pretty upset

7:00

because 9/11 had just happened,

7:01

but there really was no talk

7:03

among the guys of being scared of whatever,

7:04

you're just not gonna hear that.

7:06

Even if they are you're not going to hear it.

7:07

So then nobody ever said anything.

7:09

Interviewer

So then, and no one trained you

7:12

during the two days before they brought the first plane load

7:14

of men either, right?

7:18

-

The only thing we did was a walk through of Camp X-Ray

7:20

and just some handcuffing procedures, which we already knew.

7:23

And we did a couple hours of training

7:26

on the Internal Reaction Force team, the IRF team.

7:29

But other than that, that was pretty much it.

7:31

We just kinda hung out until they came.

7:33

Interviewer

Could you describe the training

7:36

you got on the IRF team?

7:37

-

Oh, the only thing we were told was the

7:38

Internal Reaction Force team,

7:40

there was Marines, Marine Correctional Officers

7:41

that were flown in to train us for a couple of days.

7:44

We were just told there's five men on the team.

7:49

The first guy carries the riot shield,

7:51

second guy gets left arm, third guy, right arm

7:53

fourth guy left leg, fifth guy, right arm.

7:56

And just pretty much run into the cell, take him down

7:58

and hog tie him.

8:01

That was pretty much the training.

8:02

That was it.

8:03

Then we just kind of hung out and waited

8:04

for the detainees to show up.

8:06

Interviewer

The guy with the shield,

8:07

did he have any responsibilities?

8:08

If he gone in with his shield,

8:11

did he have to do anything more than just

8:12

running with the shield?

8:13

-

They were just told to go in with the shield

8:15

and pin the detainee or hit the detainee

8:17

and take them down or pin them against the cage.

8:18

Interviewer

And did they say why

8:21

you might have to do that?

8:22

-

You know, just in case they had a weapon or to get control

8:24

of them was pretty much the point they gave.

8:27

Interviewer

And that did that change your attitude

8:30

as to worrying at all about what you might be seeing?

8:32

-

Not really, I really didn't care.

8:36

And that's--

8:37

Interviewer

So then could you describe what happened

8:39

when the first plane load of detainees arrived?

8:41

-

Oh, we were just kind of hanging out at the camp

8:44

'cause we knew January 11th that day

8:46

the detainees would be arriving.

8:49

We were just at the camp.

8:51

I happened to be the first group of people

8:52

working at Camp X-Ray.

8:54

I was doing escorting duties and they just came on

8:55

the radio was, "plane landing",

8:57

then they came on the radio, "five minutes out",

8:58

came back on the radio "30 seconds out".

9:00

Then you see the bus coming and there was a

9:02

Humvee in front of the bus with Marines and the

9:04

.50 cal mounted and a Humvee in the back

9:06

with the .50 cal mounted and the bus pulls

9:08

into Camp X-Ray and you can hear the Marines

9:11

just yelling and screaming at the detainees on the bus.

9:12

Then the door just opens and

9:16

they start just throwing detainees off.

9:18

And I happened to be the second guy

9:20

in line doing escort.

9:21

Like the first guy that came off the bus,

9:22

he came off and the escort team grabbed him

9:25

and they were just yelling at him

9:28

to get to the holding cage

9:29

and he was hopping and the Marines just through his,

9:30

his missing leg.

9:33

And the Marines threw his prosthetic leg out on the ground.

9:34

Interviewer

What were you thinking when you saw that?

9:37

-

Just really just kind of taking it all in.

9:40

I, I never seen nothing like that.

9:43

I was 21 years old, 20, 21 years old then.

9:44

Just kind of doing what I was told to do.

9:47

Then the second detainee came off and took control of them

9:49

then yelled and screamed at them,

9:53

put them down the holding area on their knees.

9:54

And you know, they're all blindfolded had the leg shackles

9:57

and the handcuffs on and the earmuffs on and just,

10:00

just did the whole process 'till they were off the bus.

10:03

Interviewer

And your job, could you,

10:06

exactly what was your job?

10:08

For the second detainee, what exactly was your job?

10:10

-

I was, I was assigned to escort duties that day.

10:12

So we were escorting them.

10:14

Also, as soon as the Marines threw them

10:15

off the bus we gained control of them,

10:17

one would be on the left side,

10:19

one would be on the right side holding their arm

10:20

and just holding them and just walk them to the

10:22

holding area, you know, just yelling and screaming at them

10:25

and just place them on their knees and tell them

10:27

to cross their legs and put their head down

10:29

and get back in line, waiting for the next detainee

10:30

to come off the bus until the bus was empty.

10:32

Interviewer

Did they, did the military tell you

10:35

that you should yell and scream at them?

10:38

Or that was just part of what was going on?

10:40

-

It was just part of what was going on.

10:42

And they said, keep the pressure up because like

10:43

they had the K-9 units there too, and they had

10:45

the dogs barking.

10:47

So it was just, it was loud, it was chaotic.

10:50

It was kinda, you know, before the bus ever pulled up

10:51

you know, everybody was quiet.

10:53

You could literally hear a pin drop in the whole camp.

10:55

Then when the bus pulled up, it was just, it was just loud.

10:56

It was all chaos

10:59

Interviewer

And so everybody was screaming

11:01

and yelling and the dogs were barking?

11:02

-

Oh yeah, it was quite loud.

11:04

Interviewer

And what were the detainees, the men doing?

11:05

Did they respond back or were they just

11:07

being totally passive?

11:11

Do you remember what you saw?

11:12

-

Most of them were just, just going with the flow.

11:13

I can remember one detainee,

11:16

just like sobbing, just crying.

11:18

And you know, they put him

11:20

in a holding cell and they'd be yelling

11:21

and screaming at him and tell him to shut up.

11:22

But most of them just, they're probably so tired

11:24

from the plane they were just going with the flow.

11:26

Interviewer

Did you know anything about

11:29

the plane ride itself?

11:30

Had you heard about how these men were treated on

11:31

the plane ride?

11:34

-

No, I had no clue.

11:35

I never did it and never knew what happened.

11:35

Interviewer

So what happened after the men

11:39

went into their cells?

11:40

Then you left them alone,

11:42

then you went, they were just left to be in their cells?

11:44

-

While they were in the holding cell

11:47

they were still handcuffed with the goggles on.

11:49

Once the bus was completely empty the escort teams,

11:51

one by one would take a detainee to the other side

11:54

of Camp X-Ray and we'd go through a little tent,

11:56

it was the in processing center.

11:58

They went in and they were fingerprinted and their pictures

12:01

were taken for their ID bands.

12:03

Then from there, we were told what block to take them to.

12:06

You know like, one detainee would go to Alpha block,

12:09

one would go to Bravo block.

12:10

And once we got there the block non-commissioned officer,

12:12

NCO would tell us what cell to put them in

12:15

or what cage to put them in.

12:17

And then we'd go in there,

12:18

put them on their knees, take their leg shackles

12:20

and handcuffs off and goggles off and back out

12:21

and lock the cage and go on and get the next one.

12:24

Interviewer

And that went through,

12:29

do you remember how many detainees came in the first?

12:30

-

I don't know.

12:32

I don't remember the exact number of the first group.

12:33

Interviewer

And then that evening you went back to your

12:35

tent and that was the end of the day?

12:39

-

That was the end of the day that night.

12:41

Interviewer

Did anybody talk about it that evening?

12:43

-

Nothing, nobody really said nothing, we just went to bed,

12:45

start all over in the next day.

12:47

Interviewer

No one, no one had a thought,

12:49

no one cared to talk about it?

12:51

-

It wasn't really talked about.

12:53

Once we kind of left the camp it was kinda like

12:54

nobody spoke about it.

12:56

Interviewer

And then the next day, what happened?

12:58

-

The next day, same thing, more detainees were coming.

13:01

And it was just, that was it.

13:04

That was just the norm, you know, when they would come

13:05

and they wouldn't come.

13:08

You would be assigned different duties,

13:09

whether it be escorting or working the blocks,

13:10

walking around, feeding the detainees,

13:12

putting water in their buckets.

13:14

And they had two buckets.

13:16

One of the buckets was used for them to go to the restroom.

13:18

So, at the end of each shift

13:20

we were supposed to empty the buckets.

13:21

So,

13:23

we all ended up refusing to do it,

13:24

couple weeks into it.

13:27

We just straight refused to do it.

13:28

We were just all the, all the lower enlisted got together

13:30

and was like, we're not doing it no more.

13:32

'Cause it was just no gloves, no nothing.

13:34

And so what they ended up doing was bribing

13:36

the detainees to do it.

13:40

Interviewer

How'd they bribe--

13:41

-

With food, like Skittles and stuff like that

13:42

before they got, because they didn't have porta-john's.

13:45

Later on they would get porta-johns

13:47

and we'd take them to the restroom.

13:48

But at the beginning there was

13:49

there was nothing but a bucket, two buckets

13:50

one for water and one for them to use the restroom.

13:52

Interviewer

So the detainee, they'd let the detainee

13:54

out of his cage?

13:57

-

Yeah.

They would handcuff him and put leg shackles on.

13:58

Then the escort team would take him to each,

14:00

each cage and open it and take

14:02

out the bucket and they would carry it to,

14:04

I think there was one porta-john at each block

14:07

at the beginning, but it was for the officers

14:09

and they would just dump it out

14:10

and they would do the whole block.

14:11

And at the end of it they would give them like Skittles

14:12

from a MRE, 'cause when we got the MREs

14:14

we had to strip 'em down, like no matches, no, no silverware

14:16

no kind of sweets, just a straight meal.

14:20

And they would give 'em Skittles or something.

14:23

Interviewer

And did the detainees volunteer?

14:25

Was it hard getting people to volunteer for this?

14:29

-

No, because at the time a lot

14:31

of them just wanted to get exercise

14:32

'cause there was no recreation.

14:33

At the beginning of Camp X-Ray,

14:34

detainees weren't allowed to, you know,

14:36

before the ICRC, the International Red Cross showed up

14:38

detainees couldn't move.

14:41

They couldn't walk, they couldn't talk,

14:42

they couldn't exercise.

14:44

They were just told to sit Indian style

14:45

the middle of a cell or in the middle of a cage

14:46

and just sit there.

14:48

Woman

Describe the cage?

14:50

Interviewer

Yeah, can you describe the cage?

14:51

-

It was just, it was like I've always said,

14:53

it's just real small.

14:55

It's not even as big

14:57

as like a dog runner, dog kennel or nothing.

14:58

I would say if you were six feet or over,

15:01

I wouldn't see how anybody laid down flat.

15:02

They just had a walk in the cage and they would have

15:05

what we considered a PT mat, that's what we called them

15:08

in the army, it was like a little green fold-out mat

15:10

that you could roll up.

15:12

There was one sheet, two buckets, one was for water,

15:13

one was for them to use the restroom.

15:17

And they had like a little toothbrush you could put

15:21

on your finger at the beginning.

15:22

Other than that, they didn't have nothing.

15:23

'Cause when Camp X-Ray first opened there was no Koran's,

15:25

there was nothing, that was it.

15:27

And they were just told to sit in the middle

15:29

of that cage until it was time to go to sleep for the first

15:31

I think a week or so till the ICRC showed up.

15:35

Interviewer

Could they sleep during the day?

15:37

Were they allowed to?

15:39

-

No, they weren't allowed to talk either.

15:39

Interviewer

And if they did talk What would you do?

15:42

-

The guards would just yell and scream at them

15:44

and tell them to stop, but they really didn't talk.

15:45

It was, I think a lot of them that they just

15:47

didn't know where they were at.

15:49

They didn't know what was gonna go on.

15:50

So you could, especially the first couple days of camp

15:51

you could just see like the stress and the fear of the guys.

15:53

'Cause a lot of them didn't know where they were at

15:55

and when they would ask the guards would just

15:56

we would just tell them, you know,

15:58

I remember telling guys, "Well you're in Russia.",

16:01

or, "You're here.", 'cause a lot of them thought they

16:02

were in America.

16:04

Well then they were like, "No, we're not here."

16:05

So they didn't know where they were at.

16:07

And there was some guys that told them,

16:09

when they would ask about their country in Afghanistan

16:10

where they're from, they were like no, you know

16:12

"Americans nuked it.", and you know, "It's over with."

16:14

So, you know, a lot of them thought their families were dead

16:18

or for a while.

16:20

Until the Red Cross showed up,

16:21

then once the Red Cross showed up,

16:22

I can remember coming back to the camp the next day

16:24

and the detainees were talking, exercising,

16:27

and then that's when we were told,

16:30

and that's when they found out where they were at.

16:31

And that's when we were told from there on

16:33

they were allowed to talk, get up

16:35

and walk around their cells and exercise and pray.

16:36

Interviewer

How much time had passed before the ICRC

16:41

first showed up?

16:44

-

A week or maybe two weeks.

16:46

I can't quite remember, but it was,

16:47

they came in and that's when it changed.

16:49

Interviewer

And were there any IRFing incidents

16:53

in those early days?

16:57

-

Yeah, there was some, like I've talked about one that was

16:59

on Charlotte block at the time the medics would give,

17:02

I guess the doctors would prescribe like,

17:07

Ensure for the malnutritioned detainees.

17:08

There was a detainee on Bravo block who just refused

17:11

to take his Ensure.

17:13

And I happened to be working,

17:14

it was a night, it was an afternoon and evening shift.

17:16

And we happened to be working evening shift too.

17:18

The guy, the detainee, refused to take it.

17:21

So the medic called the officer in charge.

17:23

They came out there, tried to talk to the detainee,

17:25

he just refused to take it.

17:27

So they called the Internal Reaction Force team in

17:29

and the they lined the team up and just opened the cage

17:32

and went in there and took the guy up on the cage.

17:36

And they kind of, how would you say?

17:38

Like chained him

17:40

to the cage, kind of like, like at a cross.

17:41

And the medic held his face

17:43

while he just shoved the Ensure down his throat.

17:44

And then none of it went in.

17:46

So, but at that time, if any detainee

17:48

refused to take any medication

17:49

they would send in the Internal Reaction Force team on them.

17:51

Interviewer

And why'd they wanna give them Ensure?

17:54

-

I guess the 'cause of the malnutrition at the time.

17:57

But a lot of those guys didn't speak English

18:00

and there were the translators really didn't help.

18:02

I come to find out later on, you would talk

18:04

to some detainees,

18:05

and lot of the reason they refuse it is because they

18:06

didn't know what they were taking, whether it was poison

18:08

or so a lot of it was just miscommunication.

18:11

But you know, at the beginning translators

18:14

weren't help a lot.

18:16

So.

18:17

Interviewer

Where these IRF team incidents filmed?

18:18

-

They were supposed to be filmed.

18:23

But a lot of times

18:25

either the camera would just wouldn't be turned on

18:26

or the camera be pointed at the ground

18:28

or the camera just wouldn't be out in general at all.

18:31

I mean, at the beginning of the camp

18:33

when I was there, there was no paperwork.

18:35

There was no, "Okay, we're gonna send the IRF team

18:37

in over here."

18:40

And afterwards it was just over,

18:41

there was no paperwork, no nothing.

18:42

Interviewer

So are you saying there was no

18:45

standard operating procedure for anything

18:47

that was going on during that time?

18:49

-

No, not at all.

18:51

And there was no SOP.

18:52

If it didn't work on a Monday, they changed it on Tuesday.

18:53

If that didn't work they'd change it on that Wednesday.

18:55

So every day it was something new.

18:57

Whether it was the way we would feed detainees,

18:58

the way they would go, how many times a week they would go

19:00

to shower or who would get the IRF team called on them.

19:02

It changed all the time.

19:06

So there was nothing on paper at all.

19:07

Interviewer

What do you think about that?

19:10

That surprise you

19:12

that there was no standard operating procedures?

19:13

-

A little bit, but like we were told at the very beginning

19:15

this, this had never been done before that the book

19:17

was being written as we went,

19:20

because we've never had detainees.

19:21

I mean, they're, they're, they're not POW's

19:24

as they were called back in the day because they didn't fall

19:26

underneath the Geneva Convention or no law

19:28

like we were told.

19:30

So just kind of went with the flow.

19:31

Interviewer

And that was, that was accepted

19:35

because that was pretty much what everybody accepted.

19:37

-

Yeah, and being in the army anyways

19:38

it's everything doesn't run smooth anyway.

19:41

So, even when there's a SOP it doesn't run right,

19:43

it's all chaos anyways.

19:45

So, it was just kinda the norm really just,

19:46

and everybody's going to do something different anyways.

19:49

I'm like you would get one Lieutenant

19:51

come in and tell you to do it this way.

19:53

Then 10 minutes later another Lieutenant be like,

19:55

no, do it this way.

19:56

So it was always changing.

19:57

Interviewer

Did any of your buddies complain

20:01

that the chaos made it hard for them to follow rules

20:03

or that that there were no rules to follow?

20:06

It didn't make sense to them.

20:09

Did people say things like that?

20:11

-

No, I mean, I had some friends that I,

20:11

we spoke to later on that would

20:13

like later on in the deployment where we talked

20:15

about what was going on and it was kind of like

20:17

and this is, this isn't really what's,

20:19

they're telling people because later on we'd be able to see

20:21

the news and stuff.

20:24

And I mean, we just left the camp

20:25

and that's not what happened.

20:27

And it was kind of like, well we talk amongst

20:29

the three or four of us.

20:31

And it was kind of like we got to the point where,

20:32

you know what?

20:34

Just do your job, put your head down, go with the flow

20:35

and just go home and just try to forget about this place.

20:36

Interviewer

Do you remember any of the inconsistency

20:40

between what you saw in the news

20:43

and what you actually saw in real life?

20:44

-

Just, you know, like some of the,

20:47

I think like the first hunger strike

20:49

they were talking about, I think the first one I saw,

20:50

well, they called it the first hunger strike,

20:54

I think late in '02, not late in '02,

20:57

but like April of '02, where there had been one before.

20:59

When one of guards was searching the cell

21:02

and kinda of tossed the Koran to the floor

21:04

and that never was on the news.

21:07

And you saw this other one on the news, but this is

21:08

the first major hunger strike.

21:10

And they weren't even on a hunger strike.

21:11

And we were kind of like, you know, what's going on?

21:13

So, I mean, that was one of the inconsistencies you saw.

21:17

And then they would just talk about, you know

21:19

all this rec they were getting and all this,

21:22

how they were living this great life and eating

21:24

all this great food and just little stuff like that.

21:26

But we're like, man, we just walked out

21:28

that camp 20 minutes ago, and that's, that's not

21:29

that's not what's going on.

21:31

Unless like when Donald Rumsfeld came, I mean, you know

21:32

everything changed and we had 10 times more people

21:35

on every block.

21:38

Everything, guys were getting rec, all that stuff.

21:39

Other than that time, no it was.

21:42

Interviewer

So you're saying the media

21:45

was portraying it the men were treated well or decently,

21:46

but that's not what you were seeing.

21:49

-

Yeah, they, I mean, they, they were making it seem

21:51

like it was a lot better off than what it really was

21:54

or unless when somebody with some kind of

21:56

should we say political power or some kind of higher up

21:58

would come around, they'd wanna, you know,

22:00

let's, let's do it this way and make it look

22:02

like we're really doing it.

22:04

Interviewer

Could you describe, were you there when

22:05

Donald Rumsfeld came?

22:07

-

Yeah.

22:08

Interviewer

Could you describe that?

22:09

-

He was a jerk.

22:12

That's all I'm going to say

22:13

because I've met him a couple of times but that, you know

22:14

we usually we'd have like three people on a block

22:18

and we had these guys, they call them sally port guards

22:21

who would have the keys to like the Gamma block.

22:22

And so we had twice as many people instead

22:25

of having three people per block

22:26

we had six, instead of not running rec we're

22:27

all of a sudden letting guys walk around, you know

22:30

we'd escort them around, walking around, you know

22:32

call for prayer.

22:35

But you know, the whole day was just on, it was just

22:36

it was just a dog and pony show.

22:39

It was just, you know

22:40

he'd walk around with his little entourage.

22:41

I don't know.

22:45

It was just, I don't know.

22:46

You could tell it was just a show.

22:47

You know, they wanted you to be all pretty pressed

22:48

and who you are in the middle, you know, you're walking

22:50

around the rocks, they want your boots to be shined.

22:52

And it's just, it's kind of funny when you just looking

22:55

at it because you know, you know

22:56

what's really going on and you see this guy walking around

22:58

and I don't know, it's just, I don't know.

23:02

It was just chaotic, but it was kind of funny.

23:02

'Cause soon as he left, you know, half the people went back

23:05

to the tents and went back to sleep.

23:07

Interviewer

Did, why did you get to meet him personally?

23:10

How did that happen?

23:12

-

I happened to, well, at Camp X-Ray,

23:13

I happened to be on a block he walked onto

23:15

and he just sat there, shook our hand

23:17

talked to us and gave us one of those little coins.

23:20

He had like a Secretary of Defense coin.

23:23

They would hand in the military, you know, it's kind of

23:26

like a prestigious thing to get coins or whatever.

23:27

And that was it, but he was real arrogant.

23:30

And I met him again in Iraq.

23:34

When I was in Iraq I did escort duty for him.

23:35

First time we went to Iraq, was it March

23:38

or early April of '03?

23:40

I was on his escort team and I was a lead vehicle, whatever.

23:42

And he was just real, same thing.

23:45

You know, it was just, I don't know, there's something

23:49

about the guy, just, he, he was so fake to me.

23:50

Like, it wasn't real, like he didn't care

23:53

about any of the soldiers or nothing,

23:55

he was just doing this for the press.

23:57

Because he acted one way with the camera there.

23:59

And he was totally different when the cameras weren't there.

24:00

Interviewer

How was he different when the

24:03

cameras weren't there?

24:04

-

Everybody was his best friend.

24:05

But as soon as the cameras turned around, there's no press

24:07

he was too good to talk to anybody.

24:09

So it's, you know, just, he was just fake.

24:11

Interviewer

Did, did your buddies think that too or--

24:16

-

Oh, yeah everybody did.

24:18

Everybody was like, you know, but you kind of expect it

24:19

from the higher ups, but you know, when you see it

24:22

because you were literally like, even at Camp X-Ray,

24:24

you would see the reporters go one way

24:26

and he would just quit talking to you.

24:28

You would see him quit talking to guys.

24:29

He didn't want to, you know, hand out coins or whatever.

24:31

It was just, you know, it's all publicity.

24:33

And that's kinda like when I figured right there

24:35

then politics is really a dirty business.

24:37

Interviewer

Was General Miller around when

24:41

you were there?

24:42

-

No, when I was there

24:43

the Marine General that was running Guantanamo

24:45

was General Lehnert and towards the end, I was there

24:46

I think it was Baccus the last month or two I was there.

24:49

But other than that, no.

24:51

Interviewer

Did those Generals come by

24:53

through the camp too?

24:54

-

The Marine General Lehnart did.

24:55

He was the one that kind of spoke to us when we first got

24:57

to Guantanamo and told us about the Geneva Convention

25:00

not being in effect and you know

25:03

pretty much where these guys were coming from.

25:06

Interviewer

And did you have a different impression

25:08

of him

25:10

than you did of some of the

25:12

civilian leaders like Rumsfeld?

25:13

-

He didn't come around very often

25:16

other than if something was going

25:18

on or unless the press was around.

25:19

But he was, I guess you would say he was more

25:22

down to earth, like, 'cause you know

25:24

he kinda came up through the ranks or whatever

25:25

but there was a time where, well, matter of fact

25:27

the first time that detainees went on hunger strike

25:29

they used to call him the Candy Man.

25:31

'Cause he used to walk around

25:32

and hand out candy to detainees.

25:33

But I guess each block you would kind of see

25:35

like Alpha, Bravo block,

25:37

they each had a, guess you would say

25:38

like a block leader that would kind of get stuff going.

25:40

And there was a day when they were on hunger strike.

25:42

He took all these guys, sat 'em

25:44

down in chairs right in the middle of, what was it?

25:47

Charlie block, gave them all candy

25:49

and try to get them to stop the hunger strike.

25:52

Interviewer

So when you say block leaders,

25:56

who were these block leaders?

25:58

-

I guess, you know, kind of like the guys

25:59

they listened to as far as you know,

26:01

when not to eat or when to eat.

26:03

But I didn't know who they were personally.

26:06

Interviewer

Do you remember how they were

26:08

selected by the detainees to be their leader?

26:09

-

I think they were just the loudest ones

26:11

on the block, really, 'cause it didn't seem like

26:12

there was no, so.

26:14

Interviewer

And were there, did you ever see Cheney

26:17

while you were down there?

26:21

-

No, I never saw him when I was there.

26:22

I didn't see him.

26:23

Interviewer

Were there any civilian leaders

26:25

who came down besides Rumsfeld that you saw?

26:27

-

Not that I remember.

26:30

He just had a bunch of people with him that day.

26:32

Other than that, I don't remember

26:35

that many people coming to the camp.

26:36

Interviewer

And could you describe just a day

26:38

of your life down there?

26:41

Just how your day would go?

26:43

-

Like at Camp X-Ray, I worked usually the morning shift.

26:46

We worked eight hour shifts.

26:48

So I'd work from, think it was from six to two.

26:50

And we'd just get up

26:53

in the mornings about 5:30, get dressed

26:54

go down to the camp and we'd stand in front of

26:56

Camp X-Ray, outside the gate and they would just kind of go

26:57

down the list, tell you where you're gonna work.

27:01

You know, this guy go to Alpha block.

27:02

Neely, you go to escort duties.

27:04

You know, every day they would tell you before you go

27:07

they would tell you what happened the night before

27:09

if anything happened.

27:10

Then they would tell you don't forget every day.

27:11

these guys are the guys that planned 9/11

27:13

they'll kill your families in a heartbeat.

27:16

So you heard that every day

27:17

then you go into camp and depending on what you're doing

27:18

if you're doing block duties

27:21

you'd get there in the mornings.

27:22

Make sure there was water

27:24

in all the buckets, feed 'em breakfast.

27:24

Take 'em to the restroom at the time he had to.

27:27

And if it was shower day, you would shower 'em, feed 'em.

27:28

It was pretty much boring.

27:32

If was nothing was going on it was boring.

27:33

And if you were escorting duties, you would,

27:35

they need to go to medical.

27:35

They'd call you on the radio and you'd take them to medical.

27:36

But,

27:39

other than that as long as there was

27:40

something was going on it was pretty boring.

27:41

It was just.

27:43

Interviewer

And what would something going on mean?

27:44

-

Like, you know, if they had to call the

27:47

Internal Reaction Force team to IRF somebody.

27:49

Other than that it was just really boring job, it was just,

27:52

you didn't do nothing but walk around and talk

27:56

to the guy you were on the block with

27:59

or talk to some of the detainees that did speak English.

28:00

But other than that, it was just a very boring job.

28:03

Interviewer

Was it always the same people

28:06

on the IRF team?

28:07

-

Yeah, when I was there pretty much, it was pretty much

28:09

like some of the, like the NCO's or whatever

28:12

the ones that didn't want to be out in the heat

28:16

and they wanted to sit back there in there little ACC hut.

28:18

I know someone that's low ranking just used

28:20

to call them the lazy people 'cause they would just,

28:22

say, you'd go days and not have them call.

28:25

And they would just sit back there

28:27

for eight hours and do nothing.

28:28

Interviewer

So the IRF team are men who or women

28:29

who volunteered to be on the IRF team?

28:32

-

Well, I had came from a different company.

28:34

So I really didn't know a lot of the guys at the beginning

28:36

but it was kind of like, should we say like their clique

28:38

of guys that hung out together, but it was usually NCO's.

28:40

It wasn't the lower enlisted guys was,

28:43

guess, the guys that had a little time in the military.

28:44

They didn't really want to get hot and sweaty.

28:48

They didn't really,

28:51

If they weren't called out they just sat back in the

28:52

C hut all day.

28:53

Interview

It was always the same guys?

28:55

-

Yep, pretty much every day.

28:56

Interviewer

And when your shift ended at two,

28:59

what would you do then?

29:01

-

Usually we would leave at the time or we might go to PT.

29:03

I know me and some other guys would always go to the gym,

29:07

workout and go get on the computer, watch movies.

29:09

I drank a lot in Cuba.

29:13

I mean, other than that, fish and go out in the water,

29:15

ski and stuff like that, but just try to stay away.

29:18

We just try to stay away from the camp as long as we could

29:21

we wouldn't come back till we had to, and if we were

29:23

off for a day or two, we wouldn't have to go back there.

29:25

So we would, you know

29:27

we had some little housing we could stay at

29:29

so we'd stay out there.

29:31

But other than that, wasn't a lot to do,

29:32

it was pretty boring.

29:35

Interviewer

And did your buddies open up more

29:37

as time went on as to what was going on is what

29:39

you were experiencing?

29:42

Did people ever stop talking?

29:43

-

There was a couple of guys I spoke

29:44

to and we were pretty tight, pretty close.

29:46

'Cause there's a bunch of us that came

29:49

from different companies.

29:50

So they kinda, 'cause the company we left with,

29:51

they didn't have a lot of people.

29:53

So they mixed volunteers from different companies,

29:54

mixed us all together.

29:56

So we became kind of close and there was one

29:57

guy kind of he's the one that kinda opened my eyes

29:59

to the whole Geneva Convention thing.

30:01

He was like, man, he he's like this isn't right.

30:03

He'd actually graduated high school, went to college for two

30:06

or three years and I don't know the whole deal

30:09

but ended up dropping out and joining the military.

30:11

And then I guess over his time

30:14

and I guess he was majoring in history.

30:15

He had learned, he was showing me some stuff

30:16

on the internet.

30:18

He was like, man, this stuff isn't right.

30:19

And that's kind of like when

30:20

when we started talking about it.

30:21

So me, him and a couple other guys

30:22

and that's the one we're kind of like, just do your job

30:24

put your head down and just get

30:27

out of here and just, just get away from it.

30:29

Interviewer

Would he ever tell a supervisor

30:31

that this isn't right?

30:33

Would he say that to others than just you or?

30:35

-

No, because at the time we were just low level privates.

30:38

Especially in a place like that,

30:42

you don't know what's gonna happen if you say anything,

30:43

you don't know.

30:45

'Cause there's always gonna be retribution.

30:46

Whether they tell you you can't go nowhere

30:47

they're gonna put you in the bad places to work

30:50

or they're just going to give you hell the rest

30:52

of the time you're there.

30:53

So there's always that retribution to come.

30:54

I don't care what people say, it's gonna happen.

30:56

Interviewer

So he kept his mouth shut too.

31:00

-

Yeah, we just kind of spoke within each other.

31:01

That was it.

31:04

Interviewer

And did a lot, did most of the people

31:05

like drink?

31:09

Was that pretty common?

31:10

Is that what people did to keep themselves--

31:10

-

It was pretty common and it was just in the evenings

31:13

you'd get so bored you'd go down to, they had a Tiki

31:15

bar out on the ocean.

31:18

Pick a little nightclub called the Windjammer.

31:20

We would just go.

31:23

And I think I drank, I drank many paychecks away

31:24

in Guantanamo.

31:26

Other than that I mean we'd ski and stuff,

31:27

but that was all there was to do.

31:28

Interviewer

And could you email home or?

31:32

-

Yeah, we had that recreation center where they had a TV

31:35

and we'd go watch movies and get

31:39

on the computer and I'll spend a lot of time

31:40

on the computer talking and just trying to occupy time.

31:41

Interviewer

And so you said every day when you show up

31:47

someone would tell you, "Remember, these guys are the

31:49

worst of the worst.", and that, "They would kill

31:51

your families in a heartbeat."

31:54

That went on all the time you were there?

31:55

-

Oh yeah.

31:58

Every day before, we should say like a briefing.

31:59

They would tell you where to work,

32:01

what happened the night before.

32:03

And right before the end, they just be like, "Remember,

32:03

these are the worst of the worst,

32:05

these are the guys that would kill your family

32:07

in a heartbeat, have good day."

32:08

That was every day.

32:09

Interviewer

And when you started talking to detainees

32:11

what made you start talking to them?

32:14

How did that even happen?

32:15

-

Pretty much being bored.

32:17

And I know it was surprising to me

32:18

to hear some of the guys speak English, speak English

32:20

as good as I spoke.

32:22

And then you would start talking to some of them.

32:23

And you realize like, man, "This guy was doing

32:26

the same thing I was doing just two weeks ago."

32:28

I spoke to Rouhal and like we were talking

32:31

about girls, nightclubs, just, music.

32:33

And we had a lot of

32:36

and we had listened a lot of same music.

32:37

It was just, I mean, this is

32:39

would be a guy that I would probably hang

32:40

out with back in the States.

32:42

But here he is in Guantanamo.

32:43

But like at the time I thought everybody there was guilty.

32:46

So I was just like, "Okay, you gonna feed me a line of BS,

32:48

but he's had to do something to get here."

32:51

Interviewer

Rouhal Ahmed is that him?

32:54

-

Yeah, exactly.

32:55

Interviewer

Did your thinking start changing as you were

32:56

talking to him and realized he was just like you,

32:59

he was also, liked the same music and he

33:01

spoke the same language.

33:04

What were you thinking?

33:05

-

I just remember thinking, I didn't realize

33:06

I didn't understand why he was there because you know

33:08

he told me the whole story about the wedding, you know

33:10

all I can remember him telling me.

33:13

And at the time I don't think anybody remembered

33:15

thought Shafiq had spoke English.

33:17

He was like, "Yeah, my buddy's over there on Bravo block."

33:19

I remember going to Shafiq like, "Hey, you speak English?"

33:21

And he just kind of looked at me like, well, how

33:23

how do you know?

33:25

And 'cause he didn't want people to know.

33:26

Yeah, it was, it was different.

33:29

'Cause you know, he was doing the same thing.

33:30

I was doing two weeks ago at Killeen,

33:31

going out with my friends, hanging out

33:34

listening to music and here we were at Guantanamo

33:36

but on opposite sides of the cage.

33:39

Interviewer

So what were you thinking?

33:41

-

I just, I figured whatever he was telling me

33:43

about how he got caught and captured was just all a lie.

33:45

He must've done something.

33:48

And he would help us too because

33:51

a lot of guys we didn't understand.

33:53

So if he understood 'em,

33:55

he would tell us what they needed or what they wanted.

33:56

So, and really talked to him to pass time

33:58

if you worked that block.

34:01

Interviewer

Did you find other guys also starting

34:02

to talk to the detainees besides you?

34:04

-

Yeah, there was a lot of interaction

34:06

between the guards and detainees

34:08

and most of it was just because of boredom.

34:09

You didn't know what to, there's nothing else to do.

34:11

So you would just literally walk around all day

34:13

for eight hours and just, just walk around and talk to 'em.

34:15

Interviewer

And did your impressions,

34:19

I assume the other men also had impressions

34:22

that of women too.

34:24

Were there women guards there?

34:25

-

Yeah, there were female guards 'cause the MP's are mixed,

34:27

male and female.

34:28

Interviewer

Did everyone get the impression that you got

34:30

that maybe these people were not the worst

34:32

of the worst as they kept talking to them?

34:35

-

I don't think nobody really was saying thing.

34:37

I think everybody's kind of like under the perception of,

34:38

"Okay, this guy might be cool to talk to

34:41

but he must've done something to get here."

34:42

Interviewer

How'd you know their names?

34:46

Didn't they have to be called by numbers?

34:48

And did they know your name?

34:51

-

When I was there, we didn't cover our name tag.

34:54

So we just wore BDUs that would say

34:55

Neely and US Army on it.

34:57

So either they would be able to read our names

34:59

or they would hear people call us like the other guards.

35:02

Other MPS would call us by our names and you know, they

35:05

they had a little wristband.

35:07

So some of the guys that spoke English would just

35:08

tell you their names.

35:10

So you'd call them by first name.

35:11

But if you were told to escort a detainee, they'd call you

35:13

on the radio by the number, go to Bravo block

35:16

escort detainee 0047, whoever it was.

35:19

And you'd go there and tell them which detainee

35:20

you needed by the number.

35:23

They had like a roster and they'd tell you

35:24

what cage he was in.

35:26

Interviewer

Could you describe

35:28

why you would escort them?

35:30

Is it to showers or where else would you escort?

35:31

-

You would escort them to to like medical.

35:34

If they needed a shower you take them to the shower.

35:37

But when I was there at Camp X-Ray

35:40

we didn't escort them to interrogation.

35:41

They'd actually brought another military police company

35:44

from Fort Stuart there to do it.

35:46

So that was their main,

35:48

that was their whole job was they would come

35:49

to the blocks and be like, I need detainee so-and-so.

35:50

And that company would take them.

35:53

They would shackle them.

35:56

There'd be three of them shackled.

35:57

And they take them to some C huts, these little brown huts,

35:58

wood huts out in, you know,

36:00

about 150 yards on the other side

36:03

of Camp X-Ray and they would take them there

36:05

and they'd bring them back when they were done.

36:07

Interviewer

Did you ever hear anything

36:09

about those interrogations?

36:10

-

No, when I was there, not at all, we didn't know who

36:11

I mean, you know, there was rumors who was doing it,

36:14

the FBI CIA, Army interrogators.

36:16

We didn't know.

36:18

All we knew was all of a sudden

36:20

you would see around the base, these, these guys driving

36:21

these black blacked out civilian Humvee's.

36:23

But other than that we never heard nothing that

36:27

was going on.

36:28

We never, you know, the detainees didn't come back

36:28

and really say much about it.

36:30

Or you would see one guy leave

36:32

and you wouldn't see him by the time you left.

36:33

So you didn't, you didn't know what happened.

36:36

Then you heard rumors that they were going there

36:36

feeding them McDonald's and Pizza Hut.

36:40

So guys were getting mad over that

36:42

'cause here we are having to eat, you know, MREs every day.

36:43

But other than that, no, we didn't hear nothing.

36:46

Interviewer

And the detainees never told you

36:49

about the treatment they got

36:50

or the interrogations that they had?

36:51

-

No, I can remember, the only thing detainees would say to

36:54

me like, you know,

36:56

they were trying to say that I'm so-and-so

36:57

with whatever terrorist group, but, but I'm not

37:00

but they won't listen to me.

37:02

Other than that

37:03

they never told us really what happened at all.

37:04

Interviewer

And you never asked?

37:07

-

No, I just really don't want to know.

37:08

Interviewer

Could you describe taking them to a shower?

37:12

-

Well, before you would take them to the shower

37:14

they'd be in the cage.

37:16

You would just tell them to strip down to their boxers.

37:17

You'd handcuff him and put the, put the handcuffs on him.

37:19

Leg shackles, you would take him to the, there was a shower

37:22

there's a couple of showers on every block,

37:24

you'd take them to the shower, take their handcuffs off

37:26

and their leg irons off and turn the water from the outside

37:29

and they would just shower.

37:32

It was just kind of like a cage shower.

37:33

Like a regular shower with just chain link

37:36

fence around it and a padlock on it.

37:37

They would shower right there.

37:39

Interviewer

How long would they shower?

37:41

-

Couple minutes, you know, turn the water on

37:42

wait a couple minutes and turn it off.

37:44

Interviewer

I had heard that sometimes

37:46

the guards would turn off the water while the men

37:48

were lathered up in soap.

37:51

Did you ever see something like that?

37:53

-

Yeah, some of the guards would do that.

37:55

Just give them a quick shower to try to, I guess

37:56

either be funny or just hurry up.

37:59

'Cause you would have to shower the whole block.

38:00

And once you get done, you didn't have to do nothing.

38:02

So guys would just try to hurry

38:04

up and turn the water off, tell them they

38:05

were done, let's go.

38:07

Interviewer

Were the guards ever mean to the detainees

38:09

or doing it for purposes other than being funny?

38:12

-

I'm sure some of them did, you know.

38:16

Nobody ever straight told me they were doing it

38:17

just to be malicious none, but you know

38:20

guys would just turn the water

38:22

off on them and tell them, let's go.

38:23

Detainees would just put their shackles on

38:25

walk back to the cage and wash off.

38:27

Interviewer

What kind of food?

38:33

They always got the same MREs was there any other kind

38:34

of food that the detainees got?

38:36

-

For breakfast,

38:39

well, when Camp X-Ray first started

38:40

it was just three MREs a day for a couple of weeks.

38:41

Then there was a Navy chow hall

38:45

and they would bring 'em a hot breakfast

38:46

and they'd bring them a hot dinner and afternoons

38:47

but for lunch, they would get an MRE.

38:50

And that started once the Red Cross came.

38:53

But before that it was three MREs a day.

38:54

Interviewer

And do you remember what the hot breakfast

38:56

and hot dinner consisted of?

38:59

-

Not really.

39:01

I just remember like they would have tea and,

39:01

not really they would just have different stuff,

39:04

oatmeal for breakfast a lot.

39:06

And other than that, I don't really remember.

39:08

Interviewer

Did you see any men try to commit suicide

39:11

while you were there?

39:15

-

When I was there no, I didn't see it.

39:16

Interviewer

Had you heard of it?

39:18

-

When I was there, no.

39:19

Camp X-Ray, before we moved over to Camp Delta,

39:21

Camp X-Ray was so open you could literally see all

39:24

the way down to all the blocks.

39:27

So I don't know if it's

39:28

because there's eyes on them all the time or not.

39:29

But even when I first got to Camp Delta

39:31

at that time no body had tried.

39:33

Not that I knew of had tried to commit suicide.

39:34

Interviewer

Could you describe the movement

39:37

from Camp X-Ray to Camp Delta?

39:38

Where exactly was Camp Delta and what exactly happened

39:42

in moving the men there?

39:45

-

I think Camp Delta was about four

39:47

or five miles away from Camp X-Ray.

39:50

We just started on one block and we just shackled

39:52

and leg ironed the detainees, again put the goggles and the

39:56

and the ear muffs on 'em

39:59

and the gloves on 'em where they couldn't move.

40:01

They put 'em on the bus.

40:03

And I'm trying to remember who, I think Marines had them

40:04

on a bus and they chained 'em to the bottom of the bus.

40:07

They had like little eyes where they could chain

40:10

the leg irons on there.

40:12

Transferred 'em over to Camp Delta.

40:13

And once they got the Camp Delta we'd be on the other side

40:14

taking 'em off the buses.

40:16

And once again it was like the first day

40:18

all over again at Camp X-Ray.

40:19

We just were told to take 'em to whatever block was it was.

40:20

And we'd take them there and put them

40:24

in the cage and take their leg shackles

40:25

off till the whole Camp X-Ray was empty.

40:27

Interviewer

Could you describe Camp Delta

40:30

and how that compared to Camp X-Ray?

40:32

-

It was,

40:34

it was better.

40:36

I would say it was a little bit better when

40:37

I got there because,

40:38

the cages actually had like a real

40:41

I don't know if it was a bed, but,

40:43

like a metal steel thing on the side of the wall

40:46

where you could lay a mattress on.

40:49

They actually had a real toilet and a sink where

40:51

they could wash off.

40:55

It was still small

40:56

but I guess the best thing over there was that

40:57

solitary confinement was air conditioned.

41:00

So that was a job to always have.

41:02

But other than that, it was just, you know

41:04

it made it easier for us.

41:05

'Cause it was, it was a nicer facility.

41:07

But as far as the connex, they were,

41:08

I guess you would call them blocks.

41:11

They weren't open.

41:13

It was just like a long row.

41:14

And you would have doors on each side of the cages.

41:15

And it was just a long walkway.

41:17

Door in the front, door in the back

41:18

and they would keep them open.

41:20

So the wind and stuff could run through.

41:21

Other than that, that was it.

41:22

Interviewer

And when you said isolation,

41:25

was there a separate isolation block?

41:28

Or was it that each of these men was isolated?

41:31

-

Yeah, Camp Delta, there was a whole block.

41:34

It was just solitary, it was just like,

41:37

like we had like, like a door, a cage door you'd shut

41:40

and there was outside door that had like a little window.

41:44

Just keep it shut,

41:47

you couldn't see in or out of, unless you opened the window

41:48

and I never understood at the time

41:50

who they picked to go in there or not.

41:52

Interviewer

Where you ever a guard

41:54

in the isolation ward?

41:55

-

Yeah, I was there.

41:57

Interviewer

Could you describe, could you speak

41:58

to the men who were in the isolation ward?

42:01

-

Yeah, if you open up the window or open

42:03

up the door to like take them to the shower or something,

42:04

you could see who they were, talk to 'em

42:07

and you had to open up to feed 'em.

42:08

It was like a little slot to feed 'em.

42:10

You'd stick it in there

42:12

and they would bring it back out when they were done.

42:13

But most of the time, the door and the windows was shut

42:15

and we'd just sit in there with the AC and sleep really.

42:17

Interviewer

And the men inside the, each of them,

42:22

could they talk to others?

42:26

Were they able to talk

42:27

to other detainees who were in the isolation ward?

42:28

-

No, there was, you couldn't hear 'em

42:30

and if they would even start screaming or something

42:33

we were told to tell 'em to stop yelling

42:34

or screaming or whatever they're doing.

42:36

It was, it was quiet.

42:38

Interviewer

And how long were people left

42:40

in those isolation cells?

42:41

-

Well, I was there for about the first month of Camp Delta.

42:45

When I left there, it was still the same people there.

42:47

'Cause at Camp X-Ray we didn't have a solitary confinement

42:49

at Camp X-Ray but I was told because we used to

42:53

have to send MPs over to the Navy brig that they had a part

42:56

of the Navy brig that they'd use for, I guess, isolation.

43:00

That those detainees were taken to Camp Delta,

43:04

put in the solitary confinement there.

43:06

Like I know some of the guys that used to,

43:09

I never worked over that Navy brig, but I know some

43:10

of my friends would come back and be like,

43:13

"Dude, there are just some really young people

43:14

in that Navy brig."

43:15

I don't know if they were kids or not

43:17

but like we never were told

43:18

that there was minors or anything there at the time.

43:19

But when a lot of the guys I still talk to today

43:21

really think some of those guys were not 18

43:23

or were kind of young to be over there.

43:27

And that's why they were away.

43:28

But I know when I got to Camp Delta,

43:29

a lot of guys in solitary confinement

43:31

I had never seen before.

43:32

Interviewer

So you think the, the Navy brig,

43:34

which was not part of Camp X-Ray was somewhere else

43:36

and the men who were there or maybe they were kids who

43:40

were taken into the isolation ward at Delta?

43:43

-

Yeah, exactly.

43:45

Because after that, there was no longer,

43:46

we were never sending an MPs over to the Navy brig

43:48

anymore to stand watch.

43:50

Interviewer

And what makes you think

43:54

that they were under 18?

43:55

Who told you that?

43:57

-

Just friends of mine that had been assigned to go

43:59

over there for guard duty or whatever.

44:01

A lot of the guys we sent over there were, well, we

44:02

you know, guys in the military be on profile.

44:05

I can't walk or, you know what?

44:06

'Cause it was just

44:08

I guess you would call like light, chill duty.

44:09

You didn't have to do nothing.

44:11

You would just sit there

44:12

and guys would go over and watch TV all day.

44:13

'Cause they were locked up and they didn't have to take

44:15

'em for a shower or nothing.

44:16

I guess, I was told they have everything in there.

44:17

But I know some of my friends who were like,

44:19

"Man, some of those guys like really young to be in there."

44:21

They were like, I don't,

44:23

But we were never told at the time if there was anybody

44:25

young or not, if they were underage or not.

44:26

But I know a lot of people came back

44:29

and said there were some young looking people there.

44:30

Interviewer

And how about elderly?

44:32

Did you see any elderly people?

44:34

-

I would say there was some people that looked older

44:36

but I don't, I really couldn't tell you their age.

44:39

But I mean, there was a couple guys that looked a lot older

44:41

than the normal people.

44:43

Interviewer

How about disabilities?

44:46

Did you see people who had disabilities?

44:49

-

There was one detainee, that first one

44:51

off the bus that only had one leg, had a prostetic leg.

44:54

You know, a lot of guys came in, very malnutritioned.

44:57

Some of them were, I remember one guy had been shot with,

45:00

they say, had been grazed by a .50 cal.

45:03

Other than that, other than the injured

45:06

I didn't really see a whole lot of other stuff.

45:08

Interviewer

How about mental issues?

45:10

Did you see anybody with that?

45:12

-

Yeah, there was one detainee,

45:14

we used to call him number one.

45:17

He was just this,

45:18

I remember the first night he came in

45:19

it was in the evening too.

45:21

He was on Bravo block, I remember walking around.

45:22

He was drinking this, they had shampoo bottles

45:23

at Camp X-Ray,

45:26

he was drinking this shampoo bottle.

45:27

He was drinking his urine and we called the medics

45:28

and stuff out there and they would just

45:32

leave him by his self.

45:33

We used to have to put him away from the other detainees

45:34

'cause he would just stand up,

45:36

urinate on the guy next to him.

45:36

And he was just always screaming and yelling,

45:38

"number one!", he'd never sleep, never nothing.

45:40

And all other detainees to be like,

45:43

"Why is he even in here?"

45:44

You know?

45:46

And one of the detainees actually knew him.

45:47

He's like, "Man, this guy grew up with mental problems.",

45:48

like, "I know who he is.", you know.

45:49

But they would just put him off to his self.

45:51

Interviewer

Did anybody ever ask the medics

45:55

why he was in there?

45:57

-

Yeah, I mean, they just said there was nothing

45:58

wrong with him.

46:02

We were told, we were told that he was faking

46:03

and we were told that he was some kind of high,

46:05

some guy but he was putting on a show.

46:08

But you know, later as time has went on,

46:10

since when this happened

46:13

come to find out this guy, you know, he's been released

46:15

and he really did have these mental issues.

46:18

And I think it's funny because

46:21

from reading testimony and doing my own research,

46:23

and talking to some of the guys at UC Davis

46:25

and putting two and two together,

46:26

the government says they took this guy

46:28

and brought him to America, gave him psychiatric treatment.

46:30

But yet there's pictures of him

46:33

at home and his family talking at that time

46:34

he had already been sent home.

46:36

So they really didn't do for him

46:37

like they say they did.

46:39

I think they were just trying to cover up

46:40

because they had took this guy who was mentally ill

46:41

but I can remember him.

46:43

He used to just get butt naked and just do, I mean, he was,

46:44

you could tell the guy wasn't faking it, just the look

46:49

in his eyes.

46:51

But at the time we were told this guy was a high

46:52

ranking member of whatever, it was all a show.

46:54

But it was like, we moved to Camp Delta,

46:56

he wasn't there.

46:58

So when we made the move he was just gone.

46:59

Interviewer

You don't know what happened him?

47:01

-

No, that's when, now they're trying to say

47:02

that he was taken to America, given back.

47:04

But if you look at some of the interviews his family

47:07

has done or some of the pictures you could find

47:10

like he was, he was there at that time.

47:12

They had took him back.

47:14

But they said they captured him.

47:15

Now gave him all this treatment.

47:17

Interviewer

You know his name?

47:18

-

No, not right off hand, but I could, I could find it out.

47:20

It's on the UC Davis on my testimony at the bottom.

47:23

Interviewer

Did the other guards talk about him and say

47:26

they thought he was crazy?

47:30

-

Oh yeah.

47:33

Everybody thought he was crazy because he wasn't like bad.

47:34

He was, he was kind of funny.

47:36

I mean, it was just, you know, he had so much stress.

47:38

All of a sudden this guy would yell out at 2 o'clock

47:41

in the morning, "number one!"

47:43

And that's why everybody called him number one,

47:44

because for some reason he would always yell,

47:45

"number one, number one!"

47:46

But he wasn't, he wasn't mean or nothing

47:47

he was just, I guess, just really different, you know

47:50

it was just,

47:53

but you could tell the guy needed some kind of

47:54

help or something.

47:56

Interviewer

And who was the one who told you

47:57

that he was a high ranking official?

47:58

What kind of people told you that?

48:00

-

Just the ranking officers in the camp.

48:02

They were like, yeah, that's all just a ploy to try to get

48:05

out here and get back to the battlefield, he's supposed to

48:09

be some high ranking guy.

48:11

So I remember thinking, well, that's, that's a lot to go

48:13

out to do all that.

48:15

I don't think I'm drinking urine

48:16

to get out of a camp or nothing, but.

48:18

Interviewer

Could you describe some

48:21

of the incidents you saw with medics?

48:23

Did you ever see medics come into the cages

48:29

and what they did?

48:31

-

Well, like the incident on Bravo block

48:32

I was talking about where they forced the Ensure

48:34

down the detainees throat.

48:35

The medic grabbed the detainee by the face

48:37

and punched him twice.

48:40

And then got out of the cage

48:42

and there was a time where I escorted a detainee,

48:43

matter of fact, the guy had been shot by a .50 cal

48:45

and I guess his arm had been in a sling

48:47

and kinda grazed him on his arm, his arm had been in a sling

48:49

so his muscle, I guess, grew up to his forearm.

48:51

And they would go, I remember I took him a couple of times.

48:55

They would take him to rehab

48:58

like stretch a little bit every day.

48:59

When this one day they had this one, a male medic

49:00

he was a Navy medic.

49:02

And he, I remember him looking at me and the guy I was with

49:03

he was like, "Y'all wanna hear him scream?"

49:05

I remember saying, "What?",

49:07

and he just took his arm and stretched it all the way out.

49:09

And the guy just screamed

49:10

and hollered for, you know, 30, 45 seconds.

49:12

They let it go.

49:16

He was like, "All right, he's good to go."

49:17

But I hadn't, I had took him plenty of times before that

49:18

and after that and never was like that.

49:20

It was always just until he could tolerate it every day.

49:22

And it was just that one time.

49:25

Interviewer

Did you start changing your attitude

49:27

as you were watching these things?

49:31

I mean, when did you start wondering what's going on here?

49:32

-

Oh, I started wondering about halfway

49:37

through, like this just isn't right.

49:38

But it's like every morning you were told

49:40

don't forget this.

49:42

So you're kinda like snappy too, you know, like,

49:43

"Okay, maybe they're right.", you know.

49:45

But you know, then it was kind of

49:48

like me and my friends, the ones that did talk about it

49:49

it was just kinda like, dude, just, you know, one

49:51

nobody's going to listen to us.

49:53

You don't want that reputation of people doing that,

49:55

just put your head down and get back to the States

49:58

and just let it be and forget about this place.

50:00

Interviewer

You ever talk to the medics

50:03

outside of the incidents you've described where

50:04

like, separately you see them drinking at night

50:06

and you could kinda hang out

50:09

with them and they'd say stuff that they wouldn't say

50:11

when you were in the camp?

50:14

-

No, because most of the medics were Navy.

50:16

It was like the Navy guys hung out with the Navy guys,

50:18

Marines hung out with Marines,

50:19

and the Army stayed with the Army.

50:20

So it wasn't like this big mass thing.

50:22

It was just, everybody stayed with their own people.

50:24

Interviewer

Did you ever see psychologists in the camp?

50:26

-

Not that I remember.

50:30

I'm sure there were, but we didn't know you'd see guys with

50:31

civilian clothes all the time,

50:34

you didn't know if they were CIA, FBI or who they were, so.

50:35

Interviewer

And no one ever told you who they were?

50:38

-

No, not at all.

50:41

These guys just walked around in these nice cars

50:42

and all blacked out these big bookcases

50:43

or these big briefcases and with no badges.

50:46

And we were just told to let them in and the camp, so.

50:49

Interviewer

And again at night when you were out

50:53

drinking, you never spoke to any psychologists either,

50:55

or again, you know off the base where they

50:59

would just tell you about some of the stories

51:02

they've experienced?

51:04

-

No, you never see none of the

51:04

high-ranking people or

51:08

like any of those guys, driving those fancy cars

51:09

they would never just come out to the bar and drink.

51:12

They would always, I guess, be at the hotel

51:13

that was their, but we never mixed with them.

51:16

Interviewer]

Do you think the military treated you well

51:22

during those, were you there six months?

51:27

How long?

51:29

-

Six months from January till June.

51:30

Interviewer

How did you feel the military treated you?

51:32

Did you just, you were left alone?

51:34

You were treated fine?

51:36

-

Yeah, for the most part.

51:38

I didn't see, you know it was the Army know what I mean?.

51:39

I always thought they could do pretty much anything

51:43

to you, you know.

51:44

I didn't think I was treated that bad.

51:46

We all thought it was kinda messed up.

51:47

There we were driving by all this empty housing when

51:49

we first got there and we were sleeping on the landfill.

51:51

But which was, which was kind of funny, which was

51:54

we were told the Geneva Convention didn't fall into effect.

51:58

But yet we were told we only cou;d live one step

52:00

above the detainees, which would have to fall

52:03

in line with the Geneva Convention.

52:06

Because according to that you have to live only

52:07

one step above.

52:08

So that was one the first things that kind of made

52:09

everybody go like, "what?"

52:11

So that's pretty much why we were told

52:13

we had to live in a tent.

52:14

And then when we moved to Camp Delta and we lived in

52:16

C huts right next to the camp.

52:17

Interviewer

And did they ever show you any

52:21

PowerPoints about 9/11?

52:23

Did they, you know, in any

52:24

any of the sessions when you were down there?

52:26

-

No, we never saw any of that.

52:28

Interviewer

So, could you tell us about some

52:31

of the detainees you spoke to while you were there?

52:32

You mentioned Rouhal and Shafiq.

52:35

Were there any others that you spoke to?

52:37

-

I spoke to David Hicks a couple

52:39

of times or quite a bit, really, when I worked Bravo block.

52:40

'Cause at Camp X-Ray he was on Bravo block.

52:43

You know, he would just talk about, you know

52:45

he had like a, that he had a daughter, you know,

52:46

he would just talk

52:51

about like how he was captured by the Northern Alliance.

52:52

And he said, he told,

52:55

I remember him telling us that they treated him well.

52:56

And he goes, "The next thing I know I'm

52:58

in control of the Americans."

53:00

And he said to come to find out he had been sold

53:01

to the Americans for, I don't remember $1,500 or $2,500,

53:03

he told us.

53:06

And then he ended up there in Guantanamo.

53:07

You know, spoke to Rouhal, Shafiq just about

53:10

normal day stuff.

53:12

But other than that, those are the

53:14

probably the main ones I talked

53:15

to because they spoke the best English.

53:16

And I was always on those blocks.

53:18

Interviewer

What did you think of David Hicks?

53:20

-

I just remember thinking he was just a little guy

53:22

you know, he was five foot, four little sawed-off guy.

53:24

And I was like, man, this guy is,

53:27

but he was always real open.

53:28

Like he, you know, he, he said he had, you know

53:30

did whatever he had done in his past, but he

53:34

wasn't fighting the Americans and he was just trying to get

53:36

home to his daughter and, and stuff.

53:38

So, but he's just, he was just a funny guy

53:41

really, you know.

53:44

It was just kind of hard to

53:45

picture these guys out, you know, really shooting RPGs

53:46

at you or whatever

53:49

when you're sitting there having a conversation with 'em.

53:50

Interviewer

And did other guards have

53:53

the same impression?

53:55

Did they also talk to these men

53:56

and get the same impression you did

53:58

that these were just normal guys?

53:59

-

Yeah, there was, there was a lot of guys, you know

54:02

when guys are like, man, you know, they're not so bad.

54:04

'Cause they would talk to 'em.

54:06

I think David Hicks was the main one everybody

54:07

wanted to talk to

54:09

because you would see him always see him on the news.

54:09

We have this white Australian guy in Guantanamo

54:11

and you'd see him

54:13

on all Soldier of Fortune magazine all that stuff.

54:14

So everyone wanted to talk to him.

54:16

You know, a lot of guys would talk to him,

54:18

but at the end, a lot of them still thought,

54:20

you know, everybody there was guilty.

54:21

Interviewer

Did David Hicks ever talk about

54:24

John Walker Lindh?

54:26

-

No, he never said nothing.

54:27

At least not to me.

54:29

Interviewer

Did you, were you surprised

54:31

at anything that the detainees did tell you?

54:33

-

Just the fact that they had been bought

54:36

by Americans for X amount of dollars.

54:38

I was just kinda, you know, 'cause a lot

54:40

of them said they weren't even captured by the Americans

54:42

like we were told.

54:43

They were captured by the Northern Alliance

54:44

or different military organizations

54:45

and they were just given to the Americans.

54:48

And then later they found out that they were sold you know,

54:50

from whoever told them.

54:53

Northern Alliance told David Hicks like,

54:54

"Yeah, by the way, you've been sold to the Americans,

54:55

go ahead and go."

54:57

It was kind of surprising after you'd been told

54:58

like these guys were caught

54:59

red-handed fighting the Americans.

55:00

So we were told everybody there was fighting, you know

55:02

they were caught fighting Americans.

55:06

Interviewer

So what were you thinking then?

55:09

I mean, it was more of these inconsistencies

55:11

I guess as time went on.

55:13

-

Yeah.

55:14

Interviewer

Let's see.

55:19

Woman

Could you talk about interpreters

55:25

and how the non English speakers were able to communicate

55:26

with the guards and other personnel?

55:32

-

Well, the interpreters at Camp X-Ray,

55:34

there was like two of them to the whole camp.

55:37

So when they would be coming into

55:39

the facility off the bus, you know, they were trying to

55:41

repeat what we were saying.

55:45

But sometimes if you couldn't get

55:46

a hold an interpreter you'd have to try to

55:47

use one of the detainees on the block.

55:49

So there was a big language gap.

55:51

And some of the times you would,

55:52

I can remember like Rouhal on Alpha block,

55:55

we had an interpreter come over

55:56

and the guy wanted something.

55:57

He goes, "That's not what he even asked for,

55:59

this is what he wanted, he didn't even say this."

56:02

So there was just a lot of inconsistency.

56:04

It was hard to get an interpreter too at the time

56:05

because one was always off.

56:07

The one was over here in medical, one was interrogation.

56:08

So most of the time, nine times out of 10

56:11

you'd have to rely on another detainee to try to point you

56:13

in the right direction.

56:16

Woman

How did you even know what language they needed?

56:17

Man

Look at Peter when you answer.

56:20

-

I had no clue.

56:21

We would just go with whatever one of the other detainees

56:25

would tell you.

56:28

Woman

Do you feel that a lot of those detainees who

56:33

did not speak English were treated worse

56:36

because they were not able to express themselves

56:40

and were misunderstanding directions?

56:45

-

Yeah, they just couldn't,

56:49

yeah, they couldn't understand the directions.

56:50

And then if they needed anything

56:52

whether it was to go the bathroom or anything, they couldn't

56:53

it was hard for them to ask us.

56:56

So yeah, I would say a lot

56:58

of stuff that happened was because of miscommunication.

56:59

Interviewer

Were there any people,

57:06

supervisors who seemed to care more

57:07

about what was going on,

57:09

who were trying to make things right if there was no SOPs?

57:11

I mean was somebody trying to take charge

57:13

and make this work more

57:15

in a more organized fashion and maybe more humane?

57:18

-

Not really.

57:23

I think a lot of those higher ups looked at Guantanamo

57:23

as a career ladder step as a step for their career.

57:26

You know, that's a, that's a career maker, right there.

57:29

Say a career maker or a career ender

57:31

because you look at a lot of those guys now

57:33

of those guys now who were Colonels or Lieutenant Colonels

57:35

and they're all Generals now.

57:37

I mean, that's just, that's the career thing right

57:38

there to be the first one ever starting

57:40

a detention facility.

57:41

So it was all, no, they didn't, you know

57:42

if I've learned one thing, even from there and other places,

57:45

if you've got a Colonel

57:48

in charge and whoever's below him, if something happens,

57:49

that other guy's gonna take the fall.

57:51

So if anything, negative were ever to happen there

57:53

it was always the Lieutenant's fault

57:54

or it was the Captain's fault.

57:55

It was never the Colonel or the General's fault.

57:57

So there was no SOP

57:59

so they could blame whoever they wanted to.

58:01

And just there's incidents where they just got rid

58:03

of Internal Reaction Force tapes

58:07

just to cover their own self

58:09

Woman

Before you went to Guantanamo,

58:20

what did you know about Islam?

58:22

And were you told anything

58:25

about their religion and expectations

58:27

and

58:31

how was that whole religious interaction?

58:32

-

I didn't know nothing.

58:37

We weren't given no kind of sensitivity training

58:39

or special training on the religion at all.

58:41

Once we got there we were just told

58:44

they were supposed to pray.

58:45

After a while they were allowed to pray X amount

58:47

of times a day and they ended

58:48

up putting up signs telling them which direction to pray.

58:51

But other than that, we were given no special training.

58:53

I didn't know nothing about their religion at all.

58:55

Interviewer

Did you find them,

59:00

I've heard it from some people saying that they

59:02

thought they were surprised how the men seemed

59:04

to be at peace.

59:06

And when they spoke to 'em, they found

59:08

out that it was because they read the Koran

59:10

and they took that as their fate to be here.

59:13

And to just, as you said, go with the flow.

59:17

Did you tend to find these men reacting

59:21

and just accepting because of their religion?

59:24

-

I know a lot of them would just sit around

59:29

and read the Koran.

59:30

They would like, you know, came back to the cages

59:31

there'd be like four of 'em in a block or whatever.

59:34

And you know, they would all read together.

59:36

But I remember thinking like at call for prayer

59:39

it was kind of, 'cause you could sit at one corner

59:41

of Camp X-Ray and pretty much see all the blocks

59:42

and you would see them all in unison at the same time.

59:45

And it's like, I remember thinking,

59:47

"How they all do that at the same time

59:49

when they're not even looking at each other?"

59:50

And I just remember thinking,

59:52

"Well these guys gotta be dedicated to do this

59:53

X amount of times a day,

59:55

get up in the middle of night to do it."

59:57

And I just thought it was kind of surprising to

59:59

see someone that dedicates their religion like that.

1:00:02

But most of the time they'd just sit around

1:00:05

reading the Koran all together.

1:00:06

Interviewer

Did you ever ask them how they endured

1:00:08

what they were going through?

1:00:10

-

No, I never asked them.

1:00:12

Interviewer

Were they all were reading the Koran?

1:00:16

Were there any that didn't?

1:00:17

-

Not that I remember, I mean you would go by

1:00:19

and see them just casually reading the book

1:00:21

or talking to other people about it.

1:00:24

Interviewer

And was it because of the ICRC

1:00:26

that they got Koran's?

1:00:28

-

Yeah, pretty much after they left us.

1:00:30

When they brought Koran's and everything to 'em.

1:00:32

Interviewer

Did the ICRC ever talk to you?

1:00:35

-

No, I never spoke to 'em.

1:00:36

Interviewer

They never wanted to talk to you?

1:00:38

-

I never spoke to 'em personally, so.

1:00:40

Interviewer

When you left, what happened

1:00:48

when you left Guantanamo, where'd you go next?

1:00:51

-

I just left Guantanamo and then went back

1:00:56

to Fort Hood and back to the States.

1:00:58

Interviewer

And you didn't talk to people

1:01:02

even then about what you had experienced?

1:01:03

-

No, 'cause the day we left Guantanamo,

1:01:05

we were taken to this little area where some guy

1:01:09

we'd never seen before comes out

1:01:14

and has this sheet of paper in his hand.

1:01:15

He's all like this sheet of paper says

1:01:17

it's a confidentiality form or something,

1:01:20

you can't write a book, make a movie, talk to the press

1:01:22

or anything about what you've seen

1:01:26

or what you've heard or what you did here.

1:01:27

And if you don't sign it, you can't leave.

1:01:29

So everybody was like, "Okay, we'll sign it."

1:01:32

And so we all signed it.

1:01:33

Then the guy got back in his little Jeep and took off

1:01:35

and went back.

1:01:36

Interviewer

Do you know who the guy was?

1:01:37

-

No clue.

1:01:39

I never seen the guy before.

1:01:39

Interviewer

What uniform, what military?

1:01:41

-

He was an Army guy.

1:01:43

Woman

Were you given a copy?

1:01:45

-

No, we were given nothing.

1:01:46

Interviewer

Did anybody say, "Well, maybe we shouldn't

1:01:49

sign this?"

1:01:51

-

No, not at all.

1:01:52

'Cause in there we were told you're not going home.

1:01:53

We didn't care.

1:01:54

We just wanted to go home.

1:01:55

Woman

What was Camp No?

1:02:00

-

I don't know when I was there.

1:02:02

We didn't, I never heard of a Camp No or any other camp.

1:02:03

Interviewer

Were they building other camps?

1:02:07

Were they building five and six when you were there?

1:02:08

-

No, not when I was there.

1:02:10

It was just, Camp Delta when I left had only

1:02:11

been open a month.

1:02:14

So they were still working on parts of that.

1:02:15

Interviewer

And were men still arriving every day?

1:02:17

-

No, not every day.

1:02:19

At that time they would come maybe once a week

1:02:20

or every other week depending.

1:02:22

And sometimes they'd come in the middle of the night.

1:02:23

So you go back to the camp, not even know

1:02:25

if there's new detainees there or not.

1:02:26

Interviewer

Were you ever escorting men off the bus

1:02:28

after that first day?

1:02:30

-

I think I did it once or twice more.

1:02:33

But after that they would start coming in the middle

1:02:35

of the night and I usually was working day shift

1:02:37

so I didn't have to deal with it.

1:02:38

Interviewer

Do you think the procedure changed in terms

1:02:40

of how you treated, how people were treated when they came

1:02:42

off the bus as months went on?

1:02:45

-

No, 'cause you, you would know like

1:02:48

if sometimes you would know from depending

1:02:50

on where you're at at the time, if like say

1:02:52

if you're back at the camp at 10 o'clock and they came in

1:02:54

you would hear the dogs and stuff barking.

1:02:56

But if you weren't there, you wouldn't know they came in.

1:02:58

But I mean, it's still pretty much the same chaos

1:03:00

of taking them off the bus, screaming

1:03:03

and putting them in a holding cell

1:03:05

and then taking them through the in processing stations.

1:03:05

Interviewer

Can you describe the

1:03:09

in processing situation?

1:03:11

-

You know, at the beginning it was just

1:03:13

they take their photographs, fingerprint 'em.

1:03:15

Then later on a couple of bus loads into them,

1:03:19

they would start going to, they would go

1:03:22

to other tent where there's going to be a doctor at,

1:03:24

and they would do rectal exams in the, in the tent,

1:03:26

by a Navy physician.

1:03:29

Interviewer

How was that?

1:03:31

-

It was pretty, I don't know.

1:03:32

They said the reason they were doing it was to

1:03:35

look for weapons,

1:03:36

but most times

1:03:39

I mean only saw twice

1:03:40

which you would hear him get it when you walked by.

1:03:42

Because a lot of the guys would scream, but you know

1:03:44

I talked to guys that were in there witnessing or whatever.

1:03:46

It was like, a lot

1:03:49

of people felt like the doctors got a kick out of it.

1:03:50

They didn't put no lube on their finger or nothing.

1:03:52

They just kinda did it real maliciously.

1:03:55

Interviewer

What was your impression of the medics?

1:03:58

It sounds like the medics

1:03:59

seemed to to be somewhat brutal at times is that--

1:04:03

-

Well, I know a lot of us looked

1:04:07

at some of the medics, like couple of them in particular,

1:04:08

like they would come on the block, start trouble

1:04:09

and they would, they just leave, you know,

1:04:11

they're not the ones that had to stay on the block all day.

1:04:13

They come hand out medication, they can be jerks

1:04:15

and just leave and then make us have to deal

1:04:17

with whatever happened after that.

1:04:19

Interviewer

So you had, what was your impression

1:04:21

of the medics?

1:04:23

-

The most, only the ones that did their job, you know

1:04:25

they're doing the job, but the one

1:04:27

or two that were just jerks about it, you know

1:04:29

nobody really wanted to deal with them because

1:04:31

when they would come on your block and start trouble,

1:04:33

you know just be for like no reason,

1:04:35

like they got kicks out of it.

1:04:37

Then they just go back to the little ACC hut,

1:04:38

wherever they were staying at the hospital and that was it.

1:04:40

Woman

Are there some specific incidences

1:04:44

you could describe?

1:04:46

-

I mean, just, you know, like I said

1:04:47

when the guy forced the Ensure down.

1:04:48

You know, handing the guy the medicine then pulling

1:04:52

it back out of the cell, just being, you know

1:04:54

real rude to him.

1:04:56

With the whole therapy thing and just, you know

1:04:57

some guys were just, you know

1:05:00

some guys wouldn't even come by and give him the medicine

1:05:02

they would just bypass them some of the detainees,

1:05:03

not even give them their medication, just, you know

1:05:05

little stuff like that.

1:05:07

Interviewer

What kind of medication besides Ensure?

1:05:08

-

I mean, I'm not sure they would hand them pills,

1:05:10

I don't know if it was Tylenol or what.

1:05:13

But they'd just fold up like a little water cup

1:05:15

give it to them and make sure they took it and walked off.

1:05:17

Interviewer

You don't know what it was for?

1:05:20

-

I have no clue.

1:05:21

Woman

Could you describe other incidences of violence?

1:05:27

Did you see any other violence?

1:05:30

Were any detainees violent?

1:05:32

-

When I was there, I didn't,

1:05:35

we didn't have a problem with detainees.

1:05:37

We were never, we never had nothing thrown on us.

1:05:38

Never, I guess, assaulted by a detainee or nothing

1:05:42

the whole time I was there.

1:05:44

Like on Bravo block, Jooma,

1:05:47

he was on Bravo block and he had supposedly

1:05:49

called this female guard, they called her a name

1:05:51

and I happened to be on escort duty that day,

1:05:53

back to the Internal Reaction Force team

1:05:55

doing nothing, well they called 'em to Bravo block

1:05:57

so I just decided to go ahead along and watch.

1:05:59

I had nothing better to do.

1:06:02

Then they went to the cage

1:06:03

and they told Jooma to turn around, get on his knees,

1:06:05

and he kind of looked at 'em, when they

1:06:07

unlocked the padlock on the cages

1:06:09

they just unlocked and left it there.

1:06:11

He turned around and got on his hands and knees

1:06:12

put his hands on his head and they opened up the cage.

1:06:14

Instead of them just putting him down and hog tying him

1:06:17

the way they should have, the one man came

1:06:19

in and just threw the shield to the side

1:06:21

and kinda got like a little running start

1:06:24

and just jumped and came down on his knee

1:06:26

on the back of Jooma and the other four got

1:06:28

on top of him and two of 'em were punching and kicking him.

1:06:31

Then they hog tied him.

1:06:33

Then they called the female guard

1:06:34

told her to come in there.

1:06:35

And she went in there

1:06:36

and struck him a couple of times and they all stood up.

1:06:37

And there lay Jooma in a pool of blood.

1:06:40

And here come the medics to take him to the hospital.

1:06:42

Interviewer

Did you see him again?

1:06:45

-

Yeah, he came back a couple days later

1:06:46

he was all stitched up.

1:06:47

Interviewer

Did you talk to him?

1:06:50

-

I really didn't, he didn't really talk a whole lot

1:06:52

at the time.

1:06:54

He just kind of quiet, kept to himself.

1:06:55

Interviewer

So he never said what happened to him?

1:06:58

-

No, he never, he never said nothing to me.

1:07:01

Woman

Is hog tying a procedure that is standard

1:07:05

to the Army or was this a Guantanamo thing?

1:07:07

-

I had never seen it till Guantanamo.

1:07:11

That was the only time I'd ever seen it.

1:07:16

Woman

So you never experienced anything

1:07:19

like that in Iraq?

1:07:21

-

No.

1:07:22

Interviewer

You knew nothing about the interrogations

1:07:28

and you knew nothing about the airplane that took the men

1:07:30

to Guantanamo either.

1:07:33

I had heard that there was a second level

1:07:35

in the airplane where there were guards

1:07:38

with guns looking down on detainees while they were

1:07:39

in the plane.

1:07:43

Had you ever heard something like that?

1:07:44

Had someone ever described the plane to you?

1:07:46

-

No, I never was told anything

1:07:47

about what happened on the plane or anything.

1:07:49

Interviewer

And you don't know the planes,

1:07:52

I also heard the planes would stop

1:07:53

at some city on the way to Guantanamo.

1:07:55

You ever hear anything about that?

1:07:58

-

No, never did.

1:07:59

Woman

Had some of the detainees soiled themselves

1:08:00

when they got off the plane?

1:08:02

-

Not that I can recall.

1:08:04

Not that I can remember.

1:08:06

I never, of course I never really paid attention.

1:08:07

It was like so fast, it happened so fast.

1:08:09

So if they did we may not have even noticed.

1:08:10

Interviewer

Was there a library operating

1:08:15

when you were there?

1:08:16

-

No, there was nothing.

1:08:17

Interviewer

And were the Koran's in different languages

1:08:20

so that whoever--

1:08:23

-

Later on, yeah.

1:08:25

Towards the end of Camp X-Ray they started getting them

1:08:26

in different languages to hand to the detainees.

1:08:29

Because I guess the first batch that came,

1:08:30

a lot of them couldn't even read them because they're

1:08:32

in different dialect or whatever.

1:08:33

But later on, they were starting to get,

1:08:35

every time the Red Cross would come they

1:08:36

would get something else like that so.

1:08:38

Interviewer

When you left, did you get the sense

1:08:41

that there was going to be an SOP at some time

1:08:43

in the future?

1:08:46

Did it look like things were progressing

1:08:46

and the military was going to be more organized

1:08:48

in how they ran this camp?

1:08:51

-

I really didn't know because it was still

1:08:53

when I left there, it was still kind of running everything

1:08:55

by the seat of your pants.

1:08:57

It was just day by day.

1:08:59

Interviewer

Did you stay friendly with other guards

1:09:01

after you left?

1:09:03

-

Yeah, same guys I went to Guantanamo with I stayed

1:09:04

with for the next two or three years.

1:09:07

Interviewer

You went to Iraq with them?

1:09:09

-

Yes, I went to Iraq with them

1:09:10

and came back and was with them to pretty much till

1:09:11

I got out.

1:09:14

Interviewer

Did they ever talk to you later on about

1:09:15

what they saw or felt in Guantanamo once time had passed?

1:09:17

-

No, it was kinda weird because Guantanamo was one

1:09:21

of those things that never no one ever spoke about.

1:09:23

Even when we came back from Iraq guys would talk

1:09:25

about stuff that happened over there

1:09:27

but Guantanamo was not a subject anybody talked about.

1:09:28

Interviewer

Why do think?

1:09:31

-

It was just kind of like, I guess one of those,

1:09:32

I really don't know, I've thought about that.

1:09:35

I don't know if it was just one

1:09:37

of them subjects nobody wanted to talk about

1:09:38

or really want to think about what really might've happened

1:09:39

there or what, but it just, it was never talked about.

1:09:42

Interviewer

Did Guantanamo seem worse to you than Iraq?

1:09:45

Is that what you're saying?

1:09:48

-

No, I don't think I really started, I mean

1:09:50

I always thought about Guantanamo,

1:09:52

but when I came back to the States, you know, I came back

1:09:54

I got married and I just kinda like put it

1:09:56

to the side and I would see stuff on TV here and there

1:09:58

but I guess going to Iraq and that, and coming back

1:10:00

I really started thinking about, I guess

1:10:03

everything kind of put it all together.

1:10:05

I can remember watching the news,

1:10:07

and they were talking about, or I would see stories about

1:10:08

like this detainee got out, he was released.

1:10:10

Man, you know I remember talking to him

1:10:14

and that's the same story he told us, you know,

1:10:16

X amount of years ago, then, you know

1:10:17

especially during the elections, you know, of the primary,

1:10:20

you hear Guantanamo's this great place,

1:10:22

and I remember, I see, I saw Dick Cheney on TV

1:10:24

one time talking about, he said, February 2002,

1:10:27

I'll never forget that, this is what was going on.

1:10:30

I'm like, "That guy's lying, he's full of it."

1:10:32

I was already starting to really doubt

1:10:34

and I already had the doubt and it just really made me mad.

1:10:36

And that's when I was like, "You know what?

1:10:40

I'm fixing to tell somebody."

1:10:41

And that was when I really just got to that breaking point,

1:10:43

of just saying what I had to say.

1:10:47

Interviewer

What'd your friends say when they found

1:10:50

out you're ready to talk?

1:10:52

-

Nothing really.

1:10:55

I really didn't really tell nobody.

1:10:56

I kinda just did it on my own.

1:10:58

But I've always been like that.

1:10:58

Like guys I was in the military with that

1:10:59

I've talked to, that were there, even the ones that

1:11:00

you know, we're like, "Man, that's messed up."

1:11:03

They always knew

1:11:06

that I'm going to do what I want to do anyways.

1:11:07

I'm always, always at that guy with,

1:11:09

I wouldn't say did my own thing,

1:11:12

but you know, if the Army, if the guys in the platoon

1:11:14

the platoon Sergeant wanted to like, be like,

1:11:18

"We're going to do everything by policy today."

1:11:19

I was always the one that read up on the policy.

1:11:21

So I'd always know.

1:11:23

So if they didn't do it by letter.

1:11:24

I'd, "Hey, you're not doing it the right way."

1:11:25

And I was always that guy later on in the Army.

1:11:26

So,

1:11:29

they kind of knew, well Neely's gonna do his

1:11:29

own thing anyways.

1:11:30

Nobody I was in the Army with,

1:11:31

they might say, "Yeah, it's messed up.",

1:11:33

but they've never said nothing negative to me.

1:11:34

'Cause what can they say?

1:11:37

And they know I don't care anyway, so.

1:11:39

Interviewer

So after you finished Iraq

1:11:42

and you looked back at Guantanamo,

1:11:44

what really was wrong with Guantanamo?

1:11:45

-

You know, just, you know, they just were,

1:11:48

and I've always said there's guilty people there.

1:11:51

And even some of the former detainees will tell you

1:11:53

that there are guilty people there, but there's a right way

1:11:54

and a wrong way to deal with people.

1:11:56

And just to go lock up people 'cause they're brown

1:11:58

and Muslim and in the wrong area,

1:12:01

we're gonna buy 'em because we need to have numbers

1:12:03

and make it look like we're doing something in this world.

1:12:04

This war on terror is just wrong.

1:12:06

You gotta do it the right way.

1:12:08

You can't do it the wrong way.

1:12:09

I've always had that.

1:12:12

I tell my kids that, you have to do it the right way.

1:12:13

You can't do something wrong, there's no shortcuts.

1:12:16

You know, the country and people here in America

1:12:18

we get upset if something happens to one American

1:12:21

soldier anywhere else.

1:12:24

But if you're doing it to other people

1:12:25

what can you really say?

1:12:27

I've always been a firm believer.

1:12:28

Until the government stands up and is like,

1:12:29

"Yeah, we did this, we're sorry, let's just move on.",

1:12:31

people are never going to forgive it.

1:12:34

You have to apologize before people can start letting go.

1:12:35

And it's just a right way and a wrong way to deal with it.

1:12:39

Interviewer

Have you gotten any pushback

1:12:43

from people when you started talking?

1:12:44

-

You know, I kind of heard it

1:12:46

from every side of the right, left the middle,

1:12:48

why it took you so long?

1:12:49

But I've always been one to just to blow it off, you know.

1:12:51

I tell people all the time, "Until you've lived it

1:12:54

and walked the walk that many of us have,

1:12:55

you can't say nothing to me."

1:12:57

It's just the way I deal with it, is prove me wrong.

1:12:59

I've always told people that, prove me wrong.

1:13:02

Tell me I'm lying.

1:13:04

I've told people many times you think I'm lying

1:13:05

put me in front of Congress and I'll take the oath

1:13:08

and say the same thing I've always said,

1:13:10

I'm not worried about it.

1:13:11

So that's the one thing I know I have on my side

1:13:13

is the truth.

1:13:14

And there's people out there that backed

1:13:15

up my story and people out there

1:13:16

with like, "Yeah, Neely, you know, you're right you know,

1:13:18

this is messed up."

1:13:21

So, you know I'm not the only one there's been other guys

1:13:22

that speak out and there's more people out there too.

1:13:24

They're just kind of wary about doing it

1:13:27

'cause they're worried about the pushback.

1:13:29

But there's a lot more people out there

1:13:30

than people realize that don't agree with what's happened.

1:13:32

Interviewer

Has Congress ever come to you

1:13:35

to ask you to speak to them?

1:13:37

-

No, not at all.

1:13:38

Interviewer

Has--

1:13:40

Woman

Have you spoken to any politicians?

1:13:43

-

No, they won't talk to me.

1:13:45

Interviewer

What did you think when

1:13:49

when Obama said he was going to close Guantanamo?

1:13:51

-

I figured, you know, he, he might want to

1:13:55

but he wasn't gonna be able to.

1:13:58

Interviewer

You felt that?

1:13:59

-

Yeah, I really did, because it was just such

1:14:00

a big mess you know?

1:14:02

You could say one thing, 'cause that's one thing

1:14:04

from watching politics and reading the history of it.

1:14:06

Guys always run on one thing

1:14:08

but they'll do another once they get there.

1:14:09

'Cause it's all about winning the next term

1:14:10

once they win the first one.

1:14:12

He's going to do whatever it keeps the vote.

1:14:13

I mean, if you really want to solve the problem

1:14:17

come out and say, "Listen we're going to keep these guys

1:14:18

for this reason, but we messed up at the beginning

1:14:20

and this is how we messed up

1:14:22

and this is how we're going to fix it."

1:14:23

But he's never said that either.

1:14:24

I mean, apologize for what happened.

1:14:25

And when he's even admitted, it was wrong,

1:14:27

but he's never said, "Hey, we messed up,

1:14:29

this is how we're gonna fix it."

1:14:30

I mean, if he did that, I'm sure people would look

1:14:32

at it a lot different.

1:14:33

Because majority of the people,

1:14:34

even the former detainees agree with, the guilty people

1:14:36

there's something that needs to be done with them.

1:14:39

Real terrorists?

1:14:40

Yeah, but you have to do it the right way.

1:14:41

Not the wrong way.

1:14:43

Don't take shortcuts.

1:14:44

And that's the problem with what happened with Guantanamo.

1:14:45

The perception was supposed to be good, but you locked

1:14:47

up most of the wrong people and you did it the wrong way.

1:14:49

Woman

And what would the right way be?

1:14:52

Have you thought about that?

1:14:54

-

Just to do what the law really says.

1:14:56

The way the constitution says,

1:14:57

the way the Geneva Convention says,

1:14:59

the way that we want it to be done to us.

1:15:00

If you locked up a true terrorist

1:15:02

and you really knew what happened, go ahead and lock them up

1:15:03

and put them through the system, give them his punishment

1:15:05

and move on with it, instead of holding people

1:15:08

for six, seven, eight years in the same spot for no reason.

1:15:09

Even when you release them, they're going back to hell.

1:15:12

Most of them ain't going back to their countries.

1:15:15

Lot of these guys who are getting out lost family members,

1:15:17

kids,

1:15:19

jobs, you know, even when they get out,

1:15:21

they're still living it because a lot of them are going

1:15:24

back to other,

1:15:27

could go back to other countries and face punishment

1:15:28

for something they didn't even do.

1:15:29

And you never hear the stories

1:15:31

of the guys that get out and do positive things.

1:15:33

'Cause there's detainees like Jooma

1:15:36

for instance, he went back to Saudi Arabia.

1:15:37

He runs a computer firm.

1:15:39

He has a wife and kids.

1:15:41

You never see the positive, but you hear

1:15:43

about that one guy who got upset

1:15:44

and went out and blew something up in wherever.

1:15:46

But my question has always been

1:15:48

to how many people went there

1:15:50

non terrorist and left a terrorist?

1:15:52

Because it's proven even the president says Guantanamo

1:15:55

became a recruiting ground

1:15:57

for extreme Muslims around the world.

1:16:00

So how many terrorists was there really before

1:16:02

before Guantanamo to compare it to what it is now?

1:16:04

Guess that's something that we'll never know.

1:16:07

Interviewer

So why do you think these men

1:16:10

were grabbed and brought to Guantanamo at the beginning?

1:16:11

-

I think because they were Muslim,

1:16:14

they were brown and it was all a numbers game.

1:16:17

They wanted it to look like they were making

1:16:20

a difference in the world.

1:16:21

That was it.

1:16:23

They wanted to make it look like

1:16:24

this group of people who weren't even from wherever,

1:16:26

did this to us and we're gonna lock everybody up now.

1:16:30

I think it was all a perception, propaganda pretty much

1:16:33

that we're really going to fight back and do something.

1:16:35

That's pretty, I mean, how are you going to,

1:16:39

'cause now that I think about it,

1:16:41

how you gonna get so many people in a matter of days,

1:16:41

they were all guilty of the same thing when

1:16:44

you really haven't even invaded Afghanistan yet?

1:16:45

Because when they started bringing them to Guantanamo

1:16:47

there wasn't even a real war yet.

1:16:49

It was just the special ops guys.

1:16:50

I don't think they're gonna round up 400 people

1:16:52

overnight to bring them up.

1:16:54

So I think it was all propaganda just to get people to

1:16:55

really think we're making a difference on the war on terror.

1:16:58

Interviewer

Did Rumsfeld say things

1:17:01

to you guys as to like, these are the worst of he worst?

1:17:03

Did you hear that from Rumsfeld?

1:17:06

-

No, he really, I mean, other than, "Hey, how you doing,

1:17:07

you doing a good job.",

1:17:09

and just walked off with his little posse, that was it.

1:17:11

Woman

When you joined the Army

1:17:16

did you think it would be a career for you?

1:17:18

-

Yeah, when I joined, it was quiet.

1:17:22

There was nothing going on around the world.

1:17:24

I wasn't doing much, I was stocking groceries

1:17:26

40 hours a week and I knew I needed a change.

1:17:29

I wasn't ready to go to college.

1:17:32

I'd been out of school almost two years.

1:17:35

'Cause like, you know, I grew up in a military household

1:17:38

so, I figured I'd go get some training.

1:17:40

Something I wanted to do, get my education paid for.

1:17:43

And after five years I'd go with whichever which way it was.

1:17:46

But I've always said like I enjoyed the military.

1:17:49

Like the Army was a good place.

1:17:52

It's done a lot of positive things for me.

1:17:53

I just don't agree with the stuff that happened.

1:17:55

The policies that went on.

1:17:56

You know, I tell people all the time,

1:17:58

I'm not anti American, I'm not anti military,

1:17:59

It's just I don't agree with the policies of what's going.

1:18:02

And that's the main reason I got out.

1:18:06

That was the whole reason I got out,

1:18:08

was because of what was going on.

1:18:11

I just wasn't going to do it no more.

1:18:12

And there's a lot of guys that I knew was in there

1:18:14

15, 16 years, four or five years from retirement

1:18:17

they got out for the same reason like, "I'm not doing this."

1:18:19

Interviewer

Because of Guantanamo or because of Iraq?

1:18:22

-

Guantanamo, Iraq, just the policies in general

1:18:24

that were going on, they just didn't agree with.

1:18:26

So guys would just take the early 15 year buy out

1:18:28

and get out, where guys were getting out 11, 12 years.

1:18:30

I mean, they were just getting out for that.

1:18:33

I mean the rate of people getting out was it was just high.

1:18:34

People just didn't want to deal with the policies anymore.

1:18:39

Interviewer

And some of these people were also upset

1:18:43

with what happened in Guantanamo, it wasn't just Iraq?

1:18:45

-

Yeah. It was just, you know, some of the guys, you know

1:18:48

most of the guys I went

1:18:51

to Guantanamo with like the guys I spoke with, you know

1:18:52

they got out too, they're out, you know, most of the guys

1:18:54

I was at Gitmo with, they're out.

1:18:56

I guess, for different reasons.

1:18:58

But I know a couple of couple of guys

1:18:59

that were kind of like, we'll just do our time

1:19:00

and go, you know?

1:19:02

And they both got out of the military too.

1:19:03

Interviewer

Were they, anyone proud of you?

1:19:05

Anyone tell you they're proud of you for speaking out?

1:19:07

-

I mean, I've heard from people that were like,

1:19:10

"Yeah, I'm glad somebody finally said something."

1:19:12

And I've heard from people from everywhere, you know,

1:19:13

positive and negative.

1:19:16

I was like, yeah, you know, I just, I have this story

1:19:17

and it's not like, I don't think you grew up wanting to be

1:19:19

like, Hey let me go out and tell this, grow up and be this.

1:19:22

I was, I guess it,

1:19:25

I wish I didn't have something to say, but I do.

1:19:26

So, I mean, I always thought about it.

1:19:28

Do I want to wake up at 65 and be like,

1:19:30

"You know what?

1:19:32

I should have said something.

1:19:33

Maybe I could have made a difference."

1:19:34

My whole thing's always been

1:19:35

if I can make one person maybe think different

1:19:36

or maybe realize what really happened or maybe research it

1:19:38

what I've had to say mattered.

1:19:41

So, I mean, I never went out

1:19:42

and talked for any kind of financial gain or nothing.

1:19:45

You'll never see me to get a book deal,

1:19:47

I'll never take money,

1:19:49

never.

1:19:52

And I didn't do it, like I tell people too,

1:19:53

I've asked like I didn't do it for myself.

1:19:56

I've done it for other people.

1:19:58

People have the right to know where their tax dollars

1:20:00

or where their daughters and their sons are going.

1:20:01

And the detainees have the right for their story to be told.

1:20:05

And I don't know how many former detainees

1:20:07

or people in general have been told.

1:20:08

I've been told like, "Because some of you are speaking

1:20:10

out now it's actually helped us move on with our lives."

1:20:12

Or, "You know, my daughter looks at me different now.",

1:20:16

or "I can get a job now." or "People know, I'm not a liar."

1:20:18

So, you know, that's, that's what really matters, you know.

1:20:21

'Cause I'm going to be okay, it's the other

1:20:23

people that need to really know what happened.

1:20:25

Interviewer

Did you ever get death threats?

1:20:29

-

No, I never got death threats.

1:20:30

Interviewer

You mentioned,

1:20:35

you've told other friends that you've talked out

1:20:37

and they've heard, you've talked out

1:20:41

and some people have been proud of you for that.

1:20:42

You haven't lost any friends off of this have you?

1:20:45

-

I really didn't.

1:20:49

You know, the guys who found out, just found out

1:20:50

from either reading the news or seeing

1:20:51

it on TV or somewhere.

1:20:53

Not that I know of.

1:20:56

My whole thing is I've always been

1:20:56

like I've said before, I'm just who I am.

1:20:59

And if you don't like it you don't want to talk to me,

1:21:01

you know.

1:21:03

And I heard from guys in the military before

1:21:04

like, you know, just like that's messed up.

1:21:05

I'll tell them back like,

1:21:07

"You tell me right now, what we did there was right?"

1:21:08

And I'll never hear back from 'em.

1:21:10

So I really don't care.

1:21:12

But I always thought too, like my real friends,

1:21:13

they're going to be there no matter what, whether you agree

1:21:17

with me or not, and I'll do the same thing for you.

1:21:18

But now if you don't want to be my friend

1:21:20

because you don't agree with that, that's fine.

1:21:21

I'm gonna sleep at night anyway, so.

1:21:23

Interviewer

So how would you like it to change?

1:21:25

You said, if you could make one difference

1:21:27

what difference would you like?

1:21:30

-

I guess just

1:21:32

for people to maybe realize what really happened back then.

1:21:33

Because people are so I guess one track minded,

1:21:35

like they get on the well everybody's guilty train

1:21:38

so they don't care what happens.

1:21:41

And they don't realize the effects that it has just,

1:21:42

you know, on the country in general, over a hundred years

1:21:45

from now, people are still going to be talking

1:21:47

about Guantanamo and what happened there.

1:21:48

Because in a hundred years from now, they'll still say

1:21:49

nobody else still has said, "Hey, we messed up and

1:21:51

this is how we're going to fix it."

1:21:53

I just wish people would probably take the time to

1:21:54

realize what really happened or what really is going on.

1:21:56

And just try to see how they can fix it.

1:21:59

Because history has a way of repeating itself

1:22:01

unless you fix it.

1:22:03

And it's gonna end up happening again.

1:22:05

Interviewer

Did lawyers or prosecutors ever come

1:22:08

to you after you came out to see

1:22:10

if you could testify on their behalf at all?

1:22:12

-

No, I've never,

1:22:15

I've never heard from nobody.

1:22:18

The only lawyers I've ever talked to is like lawyers

1:22:19

of detainees or former detainees or former detainees

1:22:21

that wanted to like maybe send me a message or talk to me.

1:22:24

Other than that, I haven't heard from nobody

1:22:29

from the military or the government or nobody.

1:22:31

Interviewer

Are you in touch with other detainees today?

1:22:33

-

I talk to Rouhal, Shafiq through Facebook

1:22:37

and text message, you know, maybe a couple

1:22:40

of times a week, every other week.

1:22:42

And we exchange photos of the kids.

1:22:44

I mean just normal conversation.

1:22:46

I mean, since we're past the whole awkward stage, you know

1:22:48

we're just like, I mean, I would say that we're friends.

1:22:51

Interviewer

And how about David Hicks?

1:22:55

-

I've spoken to him a couple times on email

1:22:57

but other than that, he'd kind of, you know

1:23:00

real low key just wants to live a normal life.

1:23:02

And just go on with his life and you can't blame him.

1:23:04

You know, he's not out in the, in the press

1:23:06

telling them stories and stuff,

1:23:08

he's just living his life like any other normal person.

1:23:09

Interviewer

So how's your life changed from all this?

1:23:13

-

Not much, you know.

1:23:19

I still go to work, come home take care of the family.

1:23:20

I guess, for me it hasn't, you know.

1:23:22

I've always had the story just out there.

1:23:25

If you read it, you read it and if you don't agree,

1:23:28

you don't agree.

1:23:29

It really ain't changing me at all.

1:23:30

I'm still the same person, I've never got a big

1:23:31

head or nothing on me, just me.

1:23:33

Interviewer

And do you think it's surprising to you

1:23:36

that you're on Facebook with people who you used to lock up?

1:23:38

-

It was funny because I hadn't been on Facebook long.

1:23:42

I can't remember, it was about the time I was doing some

1:23:46

research on Guantanamo and saw the whole thing about

1:23:48

the Tipton Three.

1:23:50

I was like, "Yeah, I remember those guys."

1:23:51

And it was just for kicks.

1:23:53

I put in Shafiq's name and there it was,

1:23:54

it just popped up with his picture.

1:23:56

And I said, "Man, no way this guy's on Facebook."

1:23:58

So I sent him a message and we just started talking

1:24:00

through there and it was just weird.

1:24:02

You could find anybody on Facebook now.

1:24:04

Interviewer

He remembered you?

1:24:05

-

Yeah.

1:24:06

Interviewer

Would guards have been nice to some of those

1:24:07

detainees back then?

1:24:09

-

Yeah, guards would do stuff like

1:24:11

like tea.

1:24:14

They would get tea for every meal.

1:24:15

Like half the container would get thrown away.

1:24:17

Like someone else would give 'em extra tea

1:24:18

or maybe extra food, stuff like that.

1:24:20

It was like little stuff.

1:24:22

But it was funny that it was stuff that they remember.

1:24:23

Like Rouhal still remembers when I talked to him,

1:24:25

me giving him an extra bag of Skittles one time.

1:24:27

I mean, it's little stuff like that they remember

1:24:30

that they actually appreciated.

1:24:31

Interviewer

And probably you had an easier time

1:24:33

with the ones that spoke English?

1:24:35

So, those are the ones you became friendly with.

1:24:36

-

Yeah, because you could communicate with them

1:24:38

but there was other detainees that you really

1:24:40

couldn't communicate with, but you would kind of joke around

1:24:41

with, like, I remember there was a detainee one time took a

1:24:44

took a Skittles bag and somehow he tied a rope around it.

1:24:47

Had like a string from his mat

1:24:51

and he threw it on the ground.

1:24:53

And there was this, this one MP, he went to pick it up

1:24:55

like it was trash and he pulled it a little bit.

1:24:58

So, he had this guy going all the way down the block.

1:25:00

And I just, we all were just like the

1:25:03

whole block was laughing.

1:25:05

This guy was like, "Man, what's going on?"

1:25:06

He thought the wind was blowing it

1:25:07

but it was just, it was just funny

1:25:08

Woman

In terms of your own personal growth,

1:25:16

did you see any positive things

1:25:18

that came from you having been in Guantanamo?

1:25:21

Would you have called it a completely negative experience

1:25:26

or did you--

1:25:29

-

I would say not completely negative.

1:25:31

'Cause I'd say over time, it's probably,

1:25:32

because I used to be very closed minded.

1:25:34

Like,

1:25:36

you know, I've always said

1:25:37

if I could change anybody could change.

1:25:38

'Cause I don't, I guess stereotype people, like I used to.

1:25:40

I look at stuff different.

1:25:45

I'll try look at the whole picture instead of just

1:25:47

one side of it.

1:25:48

It wasn't all negative because of the positive

1:25:50

you know, I really realized like not everything

1:25:51

that the media says is what it is.

1:25:55

And I've kind of opened myself

1:25:58

up to, guess different ways of life.

1:25:59

'Cause everything was seen it the way they do it

1:26:01

in Texas or any other way.

1:26:03

I don't know nothing about this religion

1:26:05

or these kind of people, but now I'm just open to it all.

1:26:06

I guess I'm more open to

1:26:08

change and different cultures and different people.

1:26:11

So, in that part of it, it was positive.

1:26:13

Interviewer

You see the world differently now?

1:26:16

-

Big time, yeah.

1:26:18

And you realize how fast your life can be taken

1:26:20

from you or just could change or,

1:26:22

yeah, just looking at it all different.

1:26:25

Interviewer

You think Obama is going to make

1:26:29

a difference in the future?

1:26:30

-

I guess you could only hope for change.

1:26:32

I guess, you know, my whole thing with politics is

1:26:36

that guys will sell their soul just to get what

1:26:37

they need instead of running on their platform.

1:26:39

Like I guess like I read in a book JFK wrote one time

1:26:44

it was like, there's a difference between being

1:26:48

in politics as your career and being a politician.

1:26:49

I guess there is a big difference

1:26:53

because they all run in one campaign

1:26:54

and they ended up doing something different.

1:26:56

So, I guess you could only hope for somebody to stand up

1:26:58

and do the right thing, what they say they're going to do

1:26:59

but I can hope, but that's about it.

1:27:02

Interviewer

Well, you feel better about yourself

1:27:07

obviously and I think that's what you've said,

1:27:09

now that you've spoken out,

1:27:12

you feel like you've done the right thing in speaking out?

1:27:15

-

Yeah, I mean I have no regrets about doing it.

1:27:18

You know, it took a long time to do it.

1:27:21

I guess I wish I would have done it sooner

1:27:23

but guess it's you know, better late than never.

1:27:24

But,

1:27:28

personally I guess it's helped me a little bit

1:27:29

but like I said before, I just did it more

1:27:32

so people know what happened and maybe some

1:27:35

of the former detainees that were really innocent

1:27:37

and just trying to live their life,

1:27:40

could be like, "You know what, not all of them are bad."

1:27:41

I mean, not all of them thought that way.

1:27:43

You know, some of them did really think

1:27:45

it was kinda messed up.

1:27:48

Interviewer

And they probably appreciate you,

1:27:50

has anyone ever said to you, they appreciate you

1:27:52

for speaking out?

1:27:53

Some of the detainees ever say that to you?

1:27:54

-

Yeah, they've told me like, about me speaking out,

1:27:57

it's helped them get their story out

1:28:00

or for people to really you know, kinda back

1:28:01

up their story of stuff that happened there as well.

1:28:05

So,

1:28:07

it's made a difference.

1:28:09

Interviewer

Well I, do you have a question?.

1:28:13

I think is there anything else that you want to say, Brandon

1:28:18

that we haven't asked you really, about?

1:28:20

-

Nothing I can think of.

1:28:22

Interviewer

It's a really a moving story,

1:28:24

a really inspirational story, really proud of you,

1:28:26

and I really appreciate your taking the time

1:28:28

to meet with us.

1:28:31

-

No problem.

Interviewer

Do you want to do a sound check?

1:28:34

Man

So, what we're gonna do here is just sit here

1:28:37

quietly for about 20 seconds.

1:28:39

Room tone.

1:28:41

End room tone.

1:28:54

Neely, Brandon - Interview master file

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