Corsetti, Damien, interview 2 - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

I'd like to thank you for returning

0:06

and I guess I'll ask you to tell us your name again, Damien.

0:08

And I wanted to also say that any time you'd like

0:11

to take a break, you're working to take a break,

0:14

just let me know.

0:17

And if there's anything else you'd like to do

0:18

just let me know.

0:19

And what we're doing is just continuing the interview

0:20

from a couple of weeks ago with you.

0:23

So maybe you could just remind us what your name is.

0:25

-

My name's Damien Corsetti.

0:29

Interviewer

And it was anything from the last interview

0:31

that after you left, you were thinking,

0:33

"Damn I wish I could have talked about it."

0:35

-

There wasn't I just completely had a mind blank

0:38

but while we're talking I'm sure

0:41

it will come back to mind.

0:42

Interviewer

Well, do you mind if we just talk

0:44

a little bit about

0:45

you don't have to talk about any specific family members

0:47

but just about your upbringing,

0:49

just how you ended up

0:51

before you went to the military,

0:54

what your life was like?

0:55

-

Typical middle-class family, a brother

0:58

and mother, father, loving family

1:02

and lots of opportunity, wonderful school system.

1:06

And I just, I kind of chose just a different, different way.

1:12

I always wanted to do my own thing

1:15

and I was always very bored with society's norms

1:17

and always just was always looking

1:21

for another route, I guess.

1:22

And sometimes it led to trouble

1:24

and sometimes it led to enlisting in the military and,

1:27

you know, I just...

1:32

I really feel I pissed away my youth

1:35

and didn't take it.

1:39

I wish I'd taken advantage of the a lot of the opportunities

1:40

that I did have.

1:42

But it's all right, I guess I'm happy with where I'm at

1:44

ultimately, but I definitely could probably chosen

1:48

an easier path to get here.

1:52

Interviewer

But do you know why he chose military?

1:54

-

I grew up outside of DC and

1:58

I tried going to school

2:02

for a little bit and it just, it really wasn't my thing.

2:03

I didn't have the discipline at the time

2:07

I would rather have smoked pot and played Nintendo

2:09

than going to class.

2:12

And so I was really lacking a lot of discipline.

2:14

Anyway, I wanted to move back to DC

2:17

I was living in North Carolina at the time.

2:19

I wanted to get back to DC and without college, you really

2:21

you're not gonna live in DC,

2:24

it's just not possible.

2:26

You know, the Everett much like San Francisco

2:29

is extremely high.

2:31

So you need a great job.

2:33

And if you're not gonna go to

2:34

if you don't have a graduate degree

2:35

your other choice is to have a security clearance

2:36

and either work for a defense contractor,

2:39

some government agency, but have a security clearance.

2:41

So I was like, "Well, I can do that."

2:44

I can go join the military that's

2:46

(scoffs)

2:48

you know, I can do anything

I can do anything for six years.

2:49

(laughs)

2:51

And so I guess the best answer is

2:54

that it seemed like a good idea at the time.

2:56

(chuckles)

2:59

Interviewer

Did you have friends?

3:00

Did you know people?

3:01

What made you think of security clearance

3:02

how do you know about that?

3:04

-

My family, everybody worked for the government.

3:06

And so that, you know, I kind of knew how

3:09

the opportunities that just having

3:12

a top secret security clearance would open up for me.

3:14

Interviewer

And what branch did you choose and why?

3:18

-

I chose the army because I could pick my job,

3:21

pinpoint my job.

3:24

And it was very important to me to have a top secret

3:26

and not just a secret for job opportunities after I got out.

3:29

And with the army, I was able to specifically pick

3:33

counterintelligence as my job field.

3:36

Interviewer

Why was it important for you

3:39

to have a top security clearance?

3:40

-

It makes you more marketable.

3:43

Interviewer

So you had sights on a future at the time

3:46

that was--

3:49

-

I was certainly and it didn't include the military.

3:50

I really don't think there was ever a time

3:53

when I was in the military where I thought

3:56

that this is the life for me.

3:57

You know, I wanted to be James Bond

3:59

I didn't wanna be Sergeant slaughter

4:04

that wasn't my idea of like,

4:07

like since I was pretty you know,

4:09

I wasn't really exposed

4:12

to a great deal of life when I was younger.

4:13

So I was really, I really was pretty passive guy

4:15

and as hard as that sounds to believe

4:18

that I was passive, I really was.

4:23

It just, you know it seemed like an adventure

4:28

and I was like, oh, counterintelligence, it's not like

4:30

it's not like I'm gonna be on the battlefield doing this.

4:33

(laughs)

4:37

You know, I was

and I just, you know,

4:40

maybe I should have looked into it a little better

4:43

than I did, it was pretty, you know

4:45

it was pretty spur of the moment

4:46

let me go do this kind of thing.

4:49

Interviewer

And how did you qualify

4:51

for top secret clearance?

4:53

How does that work?

4:54

-

You basically have to just be honest on the reports.

4:57

Like, there's people out there who are told,

5:02

oh, lie on your security forms.

5:06

Like if you've done X, Y, or Z,

5:08

and they encourage people to lie.

5:12

But really what the only reason they're asking you

5:14

those questions is to see if there's anything anybody

5:17

can blackmail you with.

5:19

And if you're just honest with them, they don't care.

5:21

You can tell them anything.

5:24

I had a buddy that had a conviction for kidnapping

5:25

and a Class 3 federal weapons violation.

5:27

Had a secret clearance just 'cause he was honest.

5:30

They just wanna make sure you're not

5:33

gonna be able to be blackmailed.

5:34

Interviewer

And what did you foresee your six years

5:37

in the military were gonna be like?

5:39

(laughs)

5:43

You know at 20 years old when I enlisted

5:44

I pictured myself talking on a shoe phone

5:46

and parachuting in a tuxedo driving Porsches around Monaco.

5:50

(laughs)

5:54

You know that was really the idea that I had

5:59

in my head at the time is, you know,

6:03

it was really stupid and I was a kid, you know,

6:04

it was just stupid,

6:06

hey, I've got to do this.

6:08

Interviewer

Did you think you're gonna travel?

6:10

-

Oh yeah and I was really looking forward to that

6:12

getting to see the world and going

6:14

and you know that's one thing about the military

6:18

I did love 'cause I got to not only see the world

6:20

but I got to see places

6:22

that people aren't gonna go travel

6:23

you can't go see, you know,

6:25

in these really ancient cultures

6:28

and civilizations and the artifacts that are there.

6:29

And it was really cool to be able to see that

6:32

and take part in such like seeing that,

6:37

even though these people like the Afghans are so different

6:40

than us in the way that they live their lives

6:43

and their culture and their society.

6:45

When you talk to them on a one-on-one basis

6:47

it really always amazed me how much more we have

6:50

in common than how much we're different

6:52

with people from around the world.

6:54

And that was probably one of the bigger benefits

6:56

I got out of being in the military.

6:59

Interviewer

What about your colleagues

7:02

when you joined up

7:04

how do you feel about them?

7:05

-

I mean, as you can imagine

7:10

a lot of the people that like,

7:11

I don't know I guess most people that lived the life

7:15

that I did didn't figure that,

7:17

hey, I'm even gonna try to get a top secret clearance

7:19

but a lot of the people that get them

7:21

are not really the kind of people

7:23

I would choose to hang out with on a social level,

7:24

you know, they were really into

7:26

internet gaming and stuff like that.

7:30

And I mean, you know, I'm not gonna knock it

7:33

it's just not for me, that's not the life I wanna live.

7:34

And instead they were really kind of antisocial.

7:37

Some of them were super, super smart

7:42

and would spend their time watching

7:45

basically, there was one time

7:48

I remember these two guys sat there

7:49

on a basketball court with a construction cone in a broom

7:52

and they were placing bets on where the shadow would be.

7:56

Yeah, I mean, just, you know,

8:01

taking it to a whole another level

8:03

it's like military

8:04

everybody likes to gamble and wager

8:06

but they took even their gambling to like this nerdy level.

8:07

It was like, you know, and then there were people

8:11

that really shouldn't have been there

8:13

that like,

8:16

they got a waiver on their smart test.

8:18

(laughs)

8:21

And they really had no business being there.

8:23

I think the work and I mean, you know,

8:28

I'm not a dumb guy, but I mean,

8:31

even some of the things I was doing

8:32

I'm just thinking of maturity level.

8:34

At that age, you can't really wrap your mind

8:36

around world issues when you still think the world's

8:38

about you, you know?

8:41

Interviewer

Well, did they give you any training

8:43

that there is a bigger world out there?

8:45

-

Not really, it's you know, I mean the military is very

8:48

they say they like

8:51

that they like human intelligence operatives

8:53

to be free-thinkers

8:55

but I really don't think that's true.

8:56

There's still a lot of the blood

8:57

and guts make the grass grow,

8:59

kill, kill kill

9:00

mentality America.

9:03

(groans)

9:04

And you know it's like,

9:05

there's really there's

9:08

they preach the company line.

9:11

(laughs)

9:13

You know?

Interviewer

So before 9/11,

9:15

what kind of work did you actually do?

9:16

-

Just service industry.

9:20

And I sold cars for a little bit and

9:22

stuff like that.

9:27

Interviewer

No, I was saying in the military.

9:28

-

Oh, oh before I'm sorry about that.

9:29

Before 9/11?

9:32

Interviewer

Yeah when you were...

9:33

When did you join the military?

9:34

-

I joined the military and I actually went in

9:36

and put a uniform on in September of 2000.

9:39

I was, I had just finished my intelligence training

9:44

at Huachuca and was in my third week

9:48

of Airborne School at Fort Benning, Georgia.

9:52

And

9:57

I remember sitting in our,

10:00

we were jumping,

10:02

that was jump week

10:04

and we were doing our second jump, I think yeah.

10:05

So it was Tuesday,

10:08

where Tuesday morning we're doing our first jump

10:09

of the second day

10:13

and we had to plan that day and you know,

10:13

there was like 300 parachuters in their shed,

10:16

all shooted up and we were sitting

10:20

in the parachute shed for

10:22

maybe three or four hours.

10:25

Planes were right outside engines were running,

10:28

we were all kind of like, okay

10:30

why aren't we getting on these planes?

10:31

And we saw the instructors, they call them black hats.

10:33

We're running around talking

10:37

you could tell something was going on.

10:38

And down there pretty much everybody that was there

10:41

was you know,

10:45

there was a lot of special operations soldiers

10:47

that were there and think that everybody's

10:49

got to go to that one school.

10:51

That's the only one in all of the armed service

10:53

in the US armed services

10:55

is that one school.

10:56

And so they finally told us what had happened.

10:58

They said two planes have hit the world trade center.

11:02

One's headed towards DC

11:06

and we can't take even the military aircraft.

11:08

They were like, we can't get these planes

11:11

up in the air where there's nobody flying right now.

11:12

And we had to stay in our parachutes

11:16

though everybody's like,

11:17

oh, what the hell you know

11:18

and you know my whole family worked in DC

11:21

and I was like freaking the fuck out.

11:22

Like, oh man, you know, I got to stay cool.

11:25

But I can't sit there and be all worried

11:27

in front of my fellow soldiers

11:29

these tough guys.

11:31

And so, you know, I'm trying to make my calm

11:32

and like inside, I'm just like freaking out.

11:35

And, you know, I didn't wanna go jump out of that plane

11:38

even if I let us own it

11:40

I was on

11:41

(murmurs)

(laughs)

11:42

way too much stuff on my head right now.

11:43

And I didn't, we didn't get, I didn't get to see the footage

11:46

until maybe 9 or 10 o'clock that night.

11:49

They kept us away from it.

11:53

And then I finally saw the footage and I came here

11:56

to this place and drank

12:01

(laughs)

12:03

a lot for the next week.

12:04

And then I went back to DC

12:07

and my parents were driving me back

12:10

from Fort Lee, Virginia.

12:13

And I told them, I was like, before we get by the house

12:16

I really would like to see Pentagon

12:18

and I remember driving by it.

12:19

And I was still all illuminated with all the flood lights

12:22

at the time and they had cleared up a lot of the debris

12:24

but you could still smell the jet fuel.

12:28

It was present and...

12:31

Yeah, I was super angry, super angry.

12:34

And then as soon as I, you know

12:36

I knew I was like, I'm going to Fort Bragg.

12:38

Chances are, I'm going to take care

12:41

of whatever happened here.

12:44

And, you know, I knew from the time I got to my unit,

12:46

it was like, okay, you keep your bags packed

12:50

we're going at a moment's notice.

12:53

You know, we trained every day,

12:58

all the time we're training we are in the field

13:00

and not really training

13:02

on intelligence for too much

13:04

more training in combat close quarters battle

13:05

and things like that.

13:09

Getting the training that we were that...

13:10

Because then you know, yeah, you're over there to do a job

13:12

but you need to stay alive to do your job.

13:15

So, you know, a lot of our training

13:17

was emphasized on combat training

13:19

and medical training and things like that.

13:21

Interviewer

You knew you were going

13:26

to Afghanistan that early?

13:27

-

Oh, no doubt.

13:28

I knew before I even...

13:29

When I was, that was one of the many things that was going

13:32

through my head I said, "Shit I'm gonna go."

13:34

Like, because pretty much everybody that was there

13:36

on active assignment already from Fort Bragg

13:39

that wasn't coming from training.

13:42

A lot of them got recalled

13:43

and weren't able to finish up the school.

13:45

They were like, no, go now.

13:46

(laughs)

13:48

You jumped once is enough, come on.

13:49

(laughs)

13:51

Interviewer

And why were you so angry?

13:54

-

You know, I guess, I guess it's, you know,

13:57

when I was watching the news the other day with the Boston

13:59

with the Boston bombings, I had that

14:03

and I was a little worried about this interview

14:06

because I know I still have a lot of anger over that.

14:07

You know I was...

14:10

I wish I wasn't so angry

14:12

I wish I didn't,

14:13

I wish that that wasn't the emotion

14:14

that immediately came to my mind

14:16

when bad things happen.

14:20

But, you know, I guess it's

14:22

it's a loss of control that makes you angry.

14:25

It's the things are just out

14:28

of your control and that's why you get angry

14:29

and they're not going the way you want them to.

14:31

And I guess that's just on a very tragic level

14:33

and I know it's wrong

14:36

for me to feel that way, but I still do.

14:37

I still have a lot of anger over that

14:38

animosity towards whoever did it at this moment.

14:40

I wish instantly I could have compassion for my enemy, but

14:44

right now not so much, you know

14:49

and I guess that was the same feeling that I had then

14:50

it was just on a much grander scale.

14:54

Interviewer

Do you think that's why you drank

15:00

for six or seven days?

15:02

(sighs)

15:05

-

Yeah, I mean, but I wasn't the only one ever, you know

15:07

it was pretty much everybody I knew

15:10

was just getting destroyed at that time.

15:12

And you know, I mean, at Fort Benning, Georgia there is a

15:16

as the headquarters, you guys want to be rangers

15:21

and you know there's a lot

15:22

of special operations there and you know,

15:25

those are all guys that it's like,

15:27

okay, we're getting ready to go be sucking for three months.

15:29

Let's go, let's go drinking in horror now while we can

15:32

that's the mentality of it is,

15:36

hey, I'm getting ready to go.

15:38

It's pretty much the same mentality I had

15:39

when facing my court martial

15:41

of just, oh, hey, I'm getting ready to go

15:42

to prison for 20 years, I'm gonna go drink and hoe it up.

15:44

I mean, that's the life that like, I was like, you know

15:48

I'm not gonna be able to do this in there.

15:51

Let's get it out of me and.

15:52

Interviewer

What happened when you came back

16:02

and did you go on a plane to Afghanistan soon after?

16:04

-

No, I didn't end up leaving until July

16:08

the next year, 2002.

16:13

I arrived there July 29th of 2002

16:17

I arrived in Afghanistan.

16:20

Interviewer

And were you still as angry

16:22

during all that time or?

16:24

-

I was scared.

16:25

I was terrified.

16:27

You know that was...

16:31

I don't know it's a frightening

16:37

it's a frightening experience.

16:38

It's one of those things that you're like,

16:39

okay, I know I'm in the military

16:41

and it's a possibility I'm going to war.

16:42

And this, you know, coming from me

16:44

I was pre 9/11 enlistee, Clinton was president.

16:45

I was like, "Hey, after Somali

16:49

he's not sending us anywhere."

16:51

(laughs)

16:53

He didn't want another one of those and

16:55

man, yeah you know it's...

16:58

'Cause you know why you're there,

17:04

you're there because like you know,

17:05

what I knew of war at the time was like,

17:07

Scorsese and

17:12

I didn't know what it was gonna be like

17:17

and it wasn't anything like,

17:18

it wasn't anything like the movie

17:19

'cause you bored to death when you're

17:21

that's what most of war is just boring, you know?

17:23

But yeah.

17:28

I mean, it was just, it was more or less the anticipation

17:29

I psyched myself out

17:32

so I was like, fuck.

17:33

And you know, they get it in your head

17:35

"There is gonna be mothherfucker shooting

17:36

"at you around every corner

17:38

"and you can't step off

17:39

"of the hard ball because there's landmines everywhere."

17:40

And I was like, "Fuck man, you know what

17:43

"there no hardball, it's all dirt."

17:45

(laughs)

17:47

So yeah, but I mean that subsided after being there

17:50

for a week, it was very casual,

17:53

in the prison it was a very casual environment

17:55

for the workers there.

17:57

Interviewer

You were, I mean, I just wanted to clarify

18:00

you were scared of dying,

18:02

is that what you were scared of?

18:04

-

No, I was just scared of the whole

18:05

the whole horror of war, you know?

18:07

I mean, it's like, I don't know,

18:09

I don't know anyone who really has like an idea of like,

18:12

oh, I'm gonna go to war and like,

18:14

or I'mma go to Afghanistan

18:15

and I'm gonna get to see beautiful poppies

18:17

and the lovely Hindu Kush mountains

18:19

and they are beautiful

18:21

but that's not what goes through your mind.

18:22

You're like, I'm gonna go over there

18:23

and I'm gonna have to go kill some poor motherfucker

18:25

and he's gonna be trying to kill me in, you know

18:27

what good can come of this?

18:31

That's really, what's going through my mind

18:33

I was like, "Fuck, man I'm really getting ready

18:34

"I have to to some really fucked up shit here."

18:36

And I'm sorry about my language, calm it down

18:37

but it was like, you know

18:40

I'm getting ready to do some really horrendous things.

18:41

And I'm really not looking forward to this

18:45

not looking forward to people doing this to me.

18:47

I'm not wanting to do it to anybody

18:49

I just, you know kind of wanna hang out here and like,

18:50

like hopefully nothing

18:53

hopefully I have an uneventful two years.

18:54

(laughs)

18:57

Interviewer

And do you think your colleagues

18:58

were saying the same thing

18:59

or thinking the thing?

19:00

-

I mean the people

19:03

that I chose to hang out with,

19:04

we all pretty much felt the same way I mean,

19:07

and it wasn't out of any political ideology.

19:10

It was just, you know

19:14

'cause there was a good mix of us and I really believed

19:16

in what we were doing there at the time.

19:19

But you know, we didn't necessarily agree

19:22

with how we were doing things.

19:24

You know,

19:27

we did realize that the treatment

19:29

of the prisoners then

19:30

would create the terrorist of tomorrow,

19:31

we knew that when we were doing .

19:33

Interviewer

How do you know that, that early and?

19:36

-

I mean, its, I mean you know,

19:38

you figure it out very early on that,

19:40

hey, there's innocent people here.

19:43

We treat them all the same.

19:45

Some of them are gonna let loose.

19:47

We took their father, their husband, their brother.

19:50

We've taken this person for years

19:55

treated them like an animal,

19:57

I treat my dog better than we treat the prisoners and

19:59

all that's gonna do is grow animosity in the future.

20:05

Interviewer

Well, if you figured that out?

20:09

Do you think your supervisors knew that too?

20:10

-

I'm sure.

20:14

I'm sure they knew that.

20:15

I mean, they were smart people.

20:16

They weren't stupid.

20:20

I know a lot of us were painted as these brutes over there

20:21

but that's not really a factful account

20:25

of what was going on there.

20:29

You're just really,

20:34

it goes along with them, as they say

20:35

encouraged to be free-thinkers

20:37

but you're really discouraged from making waves

20:38

and questioning anything

20:41

that's told down to you

20:44

you can question it,

20:45

but in a job field where there's only 400 of you

20:47

somebody who doesn't play well with the company rules

20:52

the word gets out and you know, you ended up in Alaska, so.

20:54

(laughs)

20:59

Interviewer

So if you were running the...

21:03

Did you guys talk like if you were running the show

21:07

it'd be different even back then?

21:09

-

Well, no, I mean like on a local level

21:11

like Carolyn Wood's gotten a lot of flack

21:15

for Carolyn Wood, she was our commander at the time

21:18

in the prison and she's gotten a lot of flack.

21:22

But the bottom line is,

21:26

is that I know that she helped facilitate

21:27

our worries with JAG officers.

21:30

It was her that got JAG officers in there

21:32

and was like, "Look, guys, this is what they're saying

21:34

"like, I can't, this isn't just me saying this,

21:37

"this is the best legal authority we have

21:41

"on hand saying, yes,

21:44

"this is a legal order."

21:46

And, you know, 'cause we brought our concerns to her

21:49

and she did facilitate our concerns definitely and

21:52

it didn't necessarily go the way we thought it should.

21:58

I mean, by every definition of levy on this

22:00

the Afghan people qualified under that

22:05

by every definition of it.

22:07

But they were not afforded it

22:10

no matter how many times we said

22:11

but they should be covered under this.

22:13

And it was just the Afghans.

22:15

We were being very specific like,

22:16

hey, the Arabs, okay

22:18

we understand legally how you wanna say this,

22:19

but the Afghan should be covered under levy on mass.

22:23

And we couldn't,

22:28

I don't know if they still have afforded that too

22:29

I think actually the Afghans have the Afghans now

22:31

but you know, I don't know if we ever afforded

22:33

that right to them.

22:36

And it is a right, it's international law

22:37

that we were supposed to afford that to them.

22:39

Interviewer

Did you ever think

22:43

of becoming a lawyer after

22:44

since you were obviously interested in?

22:45

-

I have, I've actually put a lot of thought into

22:49

going to law school,

22:52

but I mean, finishing school

22:53

and then go to law school.

22:54

But after my legal experience I had

22:56

it really agitates my,

23:00

I have pretty severe case PTSD

23:02

really agitates that to be in a courtroom.

23:04

That's definitely a trigger

23:08

for me is being in a courtroom, so

23:09

if the few, you know

23:13

the areas of law you could practice

23:14

without being in a courtroom, really,

23:16

I'm more interested in

23:19

helping the falsely accused and things like that.

23:21

And, you know, unfortunately that requires

23:25

making in front of a judge

23:27

and I really just can't subject myself to that anymore.

23:29

Interviewer

Well, since you mentioned it twice

23:33

can you tell us a little bit

23:34

about your courtroom experience and how that happened?

23:36

-

I got back from, well, first of all, I did

23:43

eight months in Afghanistan

23:49

and then I had a...

23:52

I'm sorry I did seven months in Afghanistan.

23:53

I had a five week break and early March of

23:55

2004,

24:02

2003, 2003.

24:03

And then by the end of March

24:07

I was in Kuwait for the invasion of Iraq.

24:10

Meanwhile, they had already conducted two investigations

24:16

and told us that it was closed out over

24:20

and done with all this stuff from Afghanistan.

24:22

Interviewer

What does that mean

24:25

to investigations so far?

24:26

-

There had been a

24:27

15-6,

24:30

no, not a 15-6.

24:32

There had been a,

24:34

I think it is called a 15-6

24:36

which is like where a general officer

24:38

looks into an investigation,

24:39

kind of like general

24:41

the fake report and stuff like that.

24:42

And they go in and they're do an investigation

24:44

and have findings and they have a team

24:47

of investigators that work with them

24:49

and they can draw up conclusion here's what's happened.

24:50

And both of the first two reports that they had done said

24:53

that it was not an issue of soldiers

24:58

it was a policy issue.

25:00

Interviewer

What issue are you talking about?

25:02

-

About the deaths

25:04

of Dilawar and Habibullah.

25:05

Interviewer

How did you know how they died?

25:08

-

From blunt force trauma

25:10

to the legs causing blood clots

25:12

one I think had a coronary aneurysm

25:14

and the other one had a brain aneurism.

25:17

I believe I'm not too sure.

25:20

And basically they had told us this stuff

25:27

was over with, you know, go interrogate again.

25:29

And luckily when I was in Iraq

25:32

I did a lot of counterintelligence work there.

25:34

So I actually enjoyed my work.

25:37

I was not, you know,

25:39

you can't be mean and recruit intelligence assets.

25:41

You have to be nice to people.

25:44

You have to see them on a social level.

25:45

And it was a lot more enjoyable.

25:47

And I did interrogations during the beginning of the war

25:49

in Iraq, in Karbala, I did some interrogations there.

25:51

And, but then I went back doing counterintelligence work

25:56

and I got to tour all of Iraq.

25:59

And, you know, I lapped out, got stationed in Kirkuk

26:00

which was a very peaceful city at the time.

26:04

At the time we knew it was a powder keg, but

26:07

at the time they hadn't really started

26:12

even killing each other.

26:14

So, and then they pulled me from there to go to Abu Ghraib

26:18

and I really did not wanna go.

26:24

I was like, you know, at this point always

26:26

I'd been doing my job that I was trained to do

26:27

that I wanted to continue to do for our government,

26:30

just not with the military.

26:33

And I said, you know, this is shit,

26:35

I don't wanna leave here,

26:37

I've got a great place.

26:38

It's peaceful up here is no IEDs,

26:39

you wanna send me in between Baghdad and

26:42

Oh man, Fallujah.

26:48

That's where Abu Ghraib is

26:50

halfway between Baghdad and Fallujah,

26:51

not a nice area to be in at that time

26:53

it was the worst area to be in.

26:56

I was like, man, I'm not gonna do this.

26:59

Hey, you got to do that

27:01

if you get told to do something

27:02

in the military, what you think really doesn't matter

27:03

you know, pack your shit let's go.

27:05

And so I went down and I got to Abu Ghraib

27:07

and I was in the first eight interrogators that got there.

27:10

And this was when there was, they hadn't even

27:14

you could smell,

27:17

the smell of Abu Ghraib like it's

27:21

the smell of body rot was what...

27:25

And you could smell it before you got there pulling up

27:28

because apparently there was mass graves

27:31

that they hadn't found

27:33

from political executions that he did before.

27:34

He took his guards out of the jails to be soldiers

27:37

and they couldn't hang them fast enough.

27:39

And the bodies were stacked up.

27:42

There was a double set of gallows

27:44

their body stacked up as high as the gallow floor.

27:45

But apparently they just started lining them up

27:50

against walls and in front of churches

27:52

and just burying them like that.

27:54

And I mean, just the smell of body rot there was so

27:56

it was very strong

27:59

it was present and it's

28:00

your clothes smelled like it

28:01

and it was horrible

28:03

it was absolutely a horrible place.

28:04

Plus it already had a notorious reputation

28:05

that's why they picked it.

28:07

They picked Abu Ghraib because it had a reputation of being

28:09

you know, just a terrifying place.

28:14

That's where Saddam would do a lot of his atrocities

28:16

took place in that prison.

28:18

And the people knew this and that's why they chose it.

28:19

They said, "We're gonna use this notorious prison"

28:22

For you know, I think the closest thing to that,

28:26

that America has ever

28:30

that the US has ever seen would be like Andersonville.

28:31

Like back in the civil war.

28:34

Like there's nothing current that can ever relate

28:35

to what went on at that place that the people knew went on

28:38

at that place.

28:41

And, you know, and it was creepy.

28:43

It was really creepy.

28:46

There was, you know, as parts of it were

28:47

had been set on fire by the prisoners.

28:49

And you know, it was...

28:51

The death house was really the creepiest place.

28:56

'Cause you could see like fingernail marks

28:57

on walls and stuff like that.

28:59

And I mean, it was really,

29:01

I'm not a person who believes in ghosts and evil spirits

29:04

and things like that

29:07

but there was definitely a presence in that place that was

29:08

the longer you were there

29:13

the more, it really just took you over and made you just

29:15

it was just an evil, like an evil there

29:20

and that's the only way to describe that place.

29:23

Interviewer

So you did go there and then what happened?

29:27

-

Originally the purpose of Abu Ghraib is they got

29:32

they captured some documents and what was called

29:36

in military terms an alpha roster

29:40

and what an alpha roster is,

29:42

is name, address, family members,

29:44

contact information, rank, you know,

29:47

what they did of fiending Saddam

29:50

division brigade something like that.

29:55

And they launched this operation that was going around

29:58

everybody up on this list.

30:01

That's a good story of how US intelligence works.

30:04

And they go and round all these people up.

30:08

But at the time we had a policy of 16 to 60,

30:11

which meant that everybody in that area, 16 to 60 male

30:17

was hemmed up and arrested, everyone.

30:24

And so they brought out of a list of maybe 5,000

30:28

we initially got probably 10,000 people in.

30:33

And it became apparent to us within the first day.

30:38

And I don't wanna back up a little bit.

30:43

They kept telling us, do this and you can go home

30:44

do this mission and you can go home.

30:47

We know you guys have been

30:49

in combat for a long time, do this one mission.

30:50

One more mission for us come on.

30:53

Uncle Sam loves you.

30:56

And so Abu Ghraib was the one

30:57

where even our battalion commander,

31:00

hey guys, really, they're promising

31:01

this is gonna be it.

31:04

And so it became apparent to us within a day

31:07

that this alpha roster that they call it

31:09

was like 10 years old and have no use anymore.

31:11

And you would think they would have

31:17

maybe done a little bit of research

31:19

shortly we had knowledge of who the commanding general

31:21

of this brigade was

31:24

and they could be like, "Oh, he was the commanding general

31:26

"of this brigade 10 years ago."

31:28

This is useless.

31:30

No, I guess it didn't cross their headlines.

31:32

And since they launched this huge operation

31:35

and capture all these people.

31:37

And, but we still had to question them.

31:39

And even after they knew

31:42

that, hey, this is new

31:44

you still got a question 'em.

31:45

So, I mean, they did know stuff, but like one of the...

31:46

I can't really say exactly what it was

31:51

'cause I don't know if it's been declassified,

31:54

but part of what your job is

31:56

as a human intelligence collector is to answer

31:57

what are called PIRs, priority intelligence requirements.

32:00

These are sent down from different levels,

32:03

secretary of defense, theater, brigade and region level,

32:06

you know and they're sent down

32:11

from everybody all the way to the company Commander

32:12

writes up 10 questions that they wanna know the answers to.

32:14

And so one of the questions on

32:18

the secretary of defense level,

32:21

not meaning that Donald Rumsfeld did it

32:23

but one of his geniuses came up with this question of,

32:25

I can't say the exact question

32:30

but basically what was the different type

32:32

of uniform worn by this group?

32:34

What determined, you know

32:38

what uniform they were wearing?

32:41

So we did have the general from 10 years

32:43

and I was like, "Let me talk to him

32:45

"I can answer this

32:48

"I can write a report and get some credit on this one."

32:49

So I brought him in and I was like,

32:53

"Hey, by the way what's the difference in these two

32:54

"these two color uniforms?"

32:59

And he was like, Oh, I forgot

33:01

you know and now many years later,

33:03

I forget if Uday or Qusay was who he called about it.

33:04

And he was like,

33:06

"Call him up

33:07

"and see what color of uniform

33:08

"he wanted us in for the parade."

33:10

(laughs)

33:13

I was like, "Are you serious,

33:14

"that's it, that's it?

33:16

"There's no training,

33:17

"that means no mission."

33:18

No, parade uniforms.

33:19

And I was like, okay.

33:21

So I go back in and I'm telling the officer on duty

33:24

I'm like, "Hey, this is the answer to this question,

33:28

"is he bullshiting you?"

33:30

No, no, he's not lying.

33:32

Like he laughed at me when I asked him this,

33:33

He thought it was just as ridiculous as we do now.

33:36

I was like, well, you got to write it up.

33:39

(whispers)

33:43

So I spent four hours writing that into a report.

33:44

And that was the best use of 1 of 400

33:48

intelligence collectors that they had in theater at the time

33:51

was to write a report that

33:55

'cause they wanted them to wear this color today.

33:56

And so that's how US intelligence works.

34:00

(chuckles)

34:03

Interviewer

And going forward then to

34:06

when did you leave Iraq

34:09

and when did that hearing begin?

34:10

-

Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.

34:12

So I left Iraq.

34:14

It was super bowl Sunday of 2005.

34:16

I'm not quite sure of what the day was,

34:18

but I know that the super bowl was on and I missed it

34:20

flying and I didn't care 'cause I was flying home.

34:24

And I got home and within 24 hours

34:28

of being in the United States

34:31

I had handcuffs on me.

34:32

It's like, we're done using you

34:34

now you can go be our sacrificial lamb for this stuff.

34:37

And I was like, "Shit man."

34:42

Interviewer

Did you have any idea that was coming?

34:43

-

Yes, yes I did.

34:45

I had gotten word

34:47

that some people had been arrested that came back before us.

34:48

And so it was one of those things that we didn't know

34:52

who they were gonna arrest.

34:54

I really didn't think that I was in any jeopardy

34:56

because I think I spoke to Habibullah two weeks

34:58

before he died for 15 minutes on his end processing.

35:02

And I slept through it

35:05

because he came in at like 3:00 in the morning.

35:07

And I remember it well

35:09

because my fellow interrogators

35:11

thought it would be funny to leave me sleeping

35:13

in the interrogation booth and just leave.

35:15

And so I remembered being there

35:17

with all the commotion that's going on

35:19

of the prisoner in processing.

35:22

And then I remember waking up

35:24

freaking out in this interrogation room by myself.

35:25

How'd I get here, oh, my God, what the fuck?

35:27

You know, it was a very creepy place, Bagram prison.

35:29

But, so surely I didn't think

35:34

I had any charges coming to me.

35:35

I knew I had pissed them off by not talking to them.

35:37

Interviewer

To who?

35:41

-

The investigators.

35:42

I knew that I had angered them by not talking to them

35:43

but surely I was like,

35:45

surely they're gonna just look at the intelligence record

35:47

and see that, hey, he talked to this guy

35:49

for 15 minutes, two weeks before he died

35:53

he didn't have anything to do with,

35:55

oh, and by the way there was a CID agent in the room

35:56

with him when he was doing it.

35:58

They knew I didn't do it.

36:00

And so I was like, I wasn't worried.

36:01

My buddy I was with was the last one

36:05

to talk to Dilawar alive

36:07

before they found him dead.

36:10

And so he was really worried.

36:12

And I do wanna clarify

36:15

like the deaths of Dilawar and Habibullah

36:17

when they talk about blunt force trauma

36:20

that did not come from any

36:22

military intelligence personnel that I know.

36:23

The MPs were...

36:26

And I'm not trying

36:28

this isn't trying to pass the buck

36:29

this is just a, you know, this is a stipulation of fact

36:31

the MPs used these perennial strikes to the legs.

36:33

Is ways to get the prisoners to be submissive.

36:37

And that's not something

36:40

that I personally,

36:44

I never saw an interrogator use a perennial strike.

36:45

And that is what killed Dilawar and Habibullah.

36:48

So a lot of us had this attitude of,

36:50

well, they fucking, they are the ones

36:51

that beat him to death.

36:53

You know, it's tragedy

36:54

these guys got beat to death, but hey man,

36:55

it's obviously them.

36:58

So the third report comes out and it goes from nobody,

37:02

nobody to 36 people charged

37:06

in the deaths of these two people.

37:09

And again, they kept titling me and they brought me in

37:12

for questioning

37:16

maybe six more times

37:19

about these events.

37:22

Interviewer

While you were still in military?

37:23

-

While I was still in the military.

37:24

And every time, you know

37:25

I lawyered up and set up, you know,

37:27

no man, they knew that that was gonna be the case

37:29

they already had the boxes checked for me

37:32

when I walked in there towards the end.

37:35

Interviewer

Well, are you saying that

37:37

you just told them, you knew nothing

37:38

or you had nothing to offer?

37:40

-

I said I will not talk to you without a lawyer present.

37:41

And they never assigned me an attorney, so.

37:44

And they would ask me,

37:49

"Have gone and gotten an attorney?"

37:50

No, you get me an attorney.

37:51

I'm not looking for them

37:53

I've got a job to do.

37:54

I got to go mop this floor for eight hours, thank you.

37:56

The treatment that I got in the military

38:03

for the three years that I was pending court-martial was

38:06

that was pretty intense.

38:14

And it really upset me because I felt really used.

38:15

I felt like you know, you bastards made me go do things

38:21

that completely violated my conscious

38:28

and changed forever who I am as a human being.

38:30

But I went along with it.

38:36

And now that I'm back, you're gonna charge me

38:39

for the very same things you gave me awards for.

38:45

The very same things they gave me awards for

38:50

they charged me with.

38:53

And

38:56

when you see people of the United States versus

39:02

in my eyes as idealistic as it was

39:07

I was over there for the American people.

39:09

And when I come back and I see the people of United States

39:12

versus Damien Corsetti on paper and see

39:14

and you know, I'm an odds guy

39:17

and I'm thinking 300 million to 1.

39:19

Those are my odds

39:22

and you know that's not good.

39:24

And then I got a lot of animosity

39:27

towards the American people.

39:29

Like, you sons of bitches, like really?

39:30

And now you're gonna call for my head

39:34

you're gonna call me a monster.

39:35

And like, I really

39:37

I felt like a

39:38

I felt like Tony Montana in "Scarface"

39:40

when he's giving his bad guy speech.

39:42

And that's exactly how I felt

39:44

like you need a bad guy

39:45

I'mma be your bad guy, oh, fuck it

39:46

I'm gonna be your bad guy.

39:48

And I really embodied that for that time period

39:49

and even past my trial.

39:53

I got into this truly self-centered lifestyle

39:55

where I really didn't care about anybody else

40:00

and I was really,

40:02

I became this person

40:03

I became this just animal.

40:05

And it was how I dealt with it.

40:08

And I can say again,

40:11

I can say it's wrong for me to have dealt with it

40:13

with drugs and alcohol and wild behavior.

40:16

But, you know, I can say that I lived through it,

40:18

unless somebody has seen the people

40:22

in the United States versus, and walked away, you know

40:23

and being completely innocent

40:26

of everything they're accusing you of

40:28

on a legal basis.

40:32

I do wanna clarify that I'm not innocent of everything

40:33

they accused me of, on a illegal basis

40:35

I was innocent of everything they accused me of.

40:37

And to see that it really,

40:40

I still feel like a stranger here.

40:46

I was just talking to my family about how

40:49

I just don't feel like I belong in the United States.

40:53

I don't know if I will ever feel accepted here again.

40:56

I really felt pushed away by the people

41:01

of this country.

41:02

I was really, it really hurt, it really

41:03

Interviewer

You feel, who betrayed you?

41:07

-

I mean, I betrayed myself

41:10

but you know, definitely, definitely

41:12

I think the military kind of just stepped

41:15

to the side and they preach

41:16

about brotherhood and comradery

41:18

and a spree decor they don't

41:20

when shit goes down, they're nowhere to be seen

41:25

with their comradery and hey, fellow soldier

41:29

thank you for doing a great job,

41:32

no, its, hey, you know the same thing

41:34

we're patting you on the back for

41:35

and I'm gonna kick you in the nuts

41:37

as hard as I can for the same thing.

41:38

And you know, I was like at this point,

41:41

at this point I was 24 years old

41:44

and I was having to do pushups,

41:47

a hundred pushups a day at least

41:49

on a daily basis as a 24 year old man.

41:52

And it's like, I'm a man

41:55

I'm a man and this is how you're dealing with me

41:57

is making me mop a floor and do pushups all day.

41:59

Interviewer

At what point,

42:03

why were they making you do, is that--

42:03

-

'Cause I was a skid mark

42:05

on the unit at that point.

42:07

It was, oh, you brought great shame on our unit.

42:09

No, I didn't my unit brought shame upon itself.

42:14

Interviewer

So when...

42:18

Chronology wise I mean,

42:20

when you left and went home

42:22

did you know something might unfold like that when you--

42:25

-

I never, I never thought

42:28

that they would ever charge me

42:31

ever officially charge me.

42:33

They just kept titling me and titling me and titling me

42:34

with all these different offenses.

42:37

Which, you know I would hate to see what a cop gets

42:40

when he pulls me over for speeding.

42:42

I'm sure it's like,

42:43

you know, scroll down, scroll down.

42:45

(laughs)

42:46

But yeah, they titled me with like

42:49

at least 20 different titles over six times.

42:50

Interviewer

And when you say titling

42:55

you mean when they tried to interview you

42:56

and you wouldn't--

43:00

-

When they try to interview you basically,

43:01

it's a way of smearing you without charging you.

43:04

It goes and it shows up that,

43:08

hey this person is basically being accused

43:09

of all this stuff and--

43:12

Interviewer

Like what?

43:15

When they say title.

43:16

-

Well, I mean, there was lots of assault charges

43:17

and most of it was assault charges at that time.

43:19

That's what a lot of it was.

43:22

They really didn't get into

43:23

in any drug use or alcohol or anything like that.

43:25

And I mean, finally, when they charged me

43:28

they charged me with cussing.

43:30

They charged an interrogator with cussing during his

43:32

in the line of his official duties

43:35

using inappropriate language.

43:37

An interrogator, an interrogator.

43:39

All right, like really?

43:44

Like that's just ridiculous.

43:46

You're gonna charge an interrogator with cussing

43:48

while he interrogates.

43:51

Well, at that point, when I saw that

43:54

that was the one that really infuriated me

43:58

I was like, you know,

44:01

I even had some fun with them

44:03

I was like, wrongful use of hashish.

44:05

No, I used it the right way.

44:07

You know I laughed about a lot of it.

44:09

It's like, this is ridiculous.

44:12

And, but that one really pissed me off

44:14

I was like, you charged me with cussing you bastards.

44:16

So I get that,

44:18

you know what I mean?

44:19

You understand from a legal perspective

44:20

the prosecution is gonna just throw as much as they can

44:21

and just hope something.

44:24

If they convict you on smoking hash

44:26

it's a win and they're calm, you know?

44:28

And it was really an overzealous prosecution

44:32

and they were offering deals to my friends

44:35

only if they testified against me.

44:37

And it was like, they got this idea

44:40

they painted this picture in their head

44:43

of here's this guy

44:45

because I've got monster tattooed on my stomach

44:48

which has nothing to do with the military.

44:50

Nothing at all.

44:53

It's a joke.

44:54

It's a joke from when I was a kid.

44:55

And (sighs).

44:57

I guess they just painted this picture in their head of,

45:01

Oh, here's, we're gonna paint this story.

45:04

And then the American media

45:06

the US media, it's like really?

45:09

You wanna sit there and do all these investigative reports

45:13

about how shady our government is.

45:15

But when it comes to them saying,

45:17

"Hey here's what happened with this guy

45:19

"you just buy it, all of it."

45:21

You believe all of it.

45:22

It's like really, our government doesn't put out

45:24

less propaganda than North Korea you're full of shit.

45:27

Like, we feed to the media

45:29

what we want the media to believe.

45:32

It amazes me what people choose to question.

45:35

Interviewer

So were the...

45:41

Your colleagues also charged with assault?

45:42

I mean--

45:45

-

Most of them were, yeah.

My charges were more severe than all of my colleagues.

45:47

I don't know about the MPs

45:52

I didn't really

45:53

familiarize myself with too many of their case.

45:55

As far as I was concerned

45:57

like my only interaction

45:58

with the MPS was, bring me this prisoner.

46:00

That was it,

46:04

now, you know

46:05

(laughs)

Interviewer

And why were your charges more severe?

46:10

-

I really think it was a malicious prosecution.

46:14

You know, that's a very, we didn't go with that defense

46:18

'cause it's a very hard defense to prove defense to prove.

46:21

But that, in my personal opinion

46:26

it was malicious prosecution.

46:28

Interviewer

And it was not connected

46:32

to the two men who died.

46:33

It was, was it connected to them?

46:35

-

Initially it was, they were charging me with the death

46:37

they charged me with assaulting

46:40

or titled me, I'm sorry

46:41

they titled me with assaulting Dilawar.

46:43

I never spoke to him.

46:45

Not once.

46:47

Couldn't tell you outside of the pictures that I've seen

46:47

of him, what the guy looked like.

46:51

Habibullah, I don't remember him either.

46:53

You know?

46:56

And as hard as that seems to people to be like,

46:59

what do you mean you don't remember?

47:02

There was only a hundred prisoners.

47:03

It's like, I had to devote so much

47:05

of my energy and attention to, you know

47:08

I had a caseload of maybe 12 prisoners.

47:09

And I had to devote 100% of my attention

47:12

to those 12 prisoners to effectively do my job.

47:15

I really couldn't focus on what was

47:19

who was talking to this guy on this day

47:21

and what did his physical, I don't know.

47:24

Like, it sounds like it'd pretty cool stuff

47:27

and it would stick out in your head

47:30

but not really when that's all you're doing.

47:31

Interviewer

So they removed those charges

47:34

on the two men?

47:36

-

Yeah, yeah.

47:37

And like now when they did officially charge me that

47:38

like, it was very sloppy

47:42

it was very sloppy charge shit.

47:44

They charged me with assaulting a prisoner

47:45

on the words of an interpreter

47:49

and they still had the prisoner in Guantanamo

47:53

and they never bothered to ask him

47:55

did this guy assault you?

47:58

And like maybe three weeks before my trial,

48:00

this made it through my article 32 hearing,

48:03

which is like a grand jury

48:06

but only with a judge versus a grand jury.

48:07

This charge made it through that.

48:11

They never asked the prisoner I hit him

48:14

when they finally asked him, he was like,

48:16

"No, this guy used to give me kebabs and cigarettes,

48:18

"I liked him."

48:21

You know, it was very sloppy.

48:24

It was very sloppy.

48:26

So they dropped that charge

48:28

like three weeks before my trial.

48:29

Interviewer

Well, I'll go back there.

48:32

I'm just curious, so when you got

48:34

so a day after you arrived home

48:36

they came and said, put you in handcuffs.

48:38

-

It was the day I got back, I believe.

48:40

I believe it was the day I got back.

48:42

I was put in handcuffs with two of my friends

48:44

and they didn't, again, military didn't bring enough

48:46

they knew they were gonna arrest three people

48:49

and only brought two sets of handcuffs.

48:51

So they had to daisy chain us.

48:52

And it's the only time where as an adult completely sober

48:55

I've ever like debated urinating myself in the back

48:57

of someone's car just to make them clean it up.

49:00

Like I was so furious, so furious.

49:02

It's like I haven't been home 24 hours,

49:05

you're putting handcuffs on me.

49:08

You know, it's like,

49:11

fuck the band, you know?

49:14

And yeah, I'm happy,

49:16

I'm happy that unlike the '60s and '70s

49:17

I didn't have people spitting on me.

49:20

Fucking the handcuffs, man

49:23

that still leaves a very sour taste in my mouth

49:26

that whole series of events.

49:29

Interviewer

And so, so going back then,

49:33

during that time until the flew you

49:36

for your trial

49:39

you had all these charges, then that charge was dropped

49:40

were the lots of other charges dropped or what ultimately?

49:42

-

Ultimately they,

49:46

and I'll see if I can actually

49:49

find my charge sheet in my email somewhere

49:50

and I'll see if I can send a copy of it to you.

49:52

But ultimately I was charged with,

49:54

I wanna say eight charges

49:58

with multiple counts on each charge up to

50:01

I think I was facing a total of 23 counts

50:05

on my final charge sheet.

50:10

Interviewer

Well, who else was caught a witness

50:12

besides that one interpreter?

50:14

-

Well, what they had the witnesses against me

50:15

and this is where it's like,

50:18

and I've met again,

50:19

I used to have a lot of animosity towards like Tim Golden.

50:21

And he's the New York times reporter who actually

50:25

got handed the leaked information,

50:27

classified material that our government

50:30

never chose to investigate how classified material

50:32

got leaked out.

50:34

That's another fucking story.

50:35

And anyway, I've met him and it's like

50:37

I really didn't like him because of what he had done.

50:40

But ultimately he did his job and he did it very well.

50:43

And, but he never questioned,

50:46

okay, who is this saying this is about him?

50:49

So I had an interpreter that I'd gotten fired

50:50

from his $200,000 a year job.

50:53

Interviewer

Why?

50:56

-

Because he wasn't a good interpreter.

50:57

He wouldn't interpret stuff, you know

50:59

after you're there for awhile,

51:00

I might not have spoken Tajik or Pashtun,

51:02

but I could understand enough

51:06

when you ask the same questions, you know

51:07

what they're supposed to sound like.

51:09

And so I ended up having another interpreter

51:11

listen through the door of what this guy was saying.

51:15

And he was kind of reassuring the prisoners

51:17

and I was like, "Oh, no, dude, you're going

51:18

"you're going

51:22

"I understand these are your people

51:22

"you have a kindred spirit with them,

51:23

"but this isn't the time or place for that."

51:25

So I got him fired.

51:28

Then you had a female interpreter or interrogator

51:30

that completely beat

51:36

a potential eight year prison sentence

51:39

to testify against me.

51:42

And then Ahmed al-Darbi who will probably spend the rest

51:44

of his life in custody, unless the Supreme court steps in

51:50

and is like, I noticed, you know,

51:53

his constitutional rights

51:56

now apply and he has been violated,

51:57

but I don't think that'll ever happen.

51:59

He will stay in prison for the rest of his life

52:01

because of information that he gave

52:02

because of the shitty treatment I gave him.

52:05

So--

52:08

Interviewer

I don't get it.

52:09

Why will he spend time in prison?

52:10

-

Oh, he's the...

52:12

The people that really are gonna

52:14

that really get slammed

52:17

as far as I'm seeing through these tribunals

52:18

are the people that had any kind of foreknowledge

52:21

of anything, no matter what they were actually guilty of.

52:24

That's what they're punishing these people for.

52:29

The ones that had any kind of foreknowledge

52:32

and he definitely did.

52:34

He definitely did.

52:36

Interviewer

Who was he?

52:37

-

He was a brother-in-law of

52:37

one of the guys

52:41

that caught the flight out of Dallas.

52:42

And he also was involved in some bombing plots with shipping

52:45

and things like that.

52:53

Interviewer

And where is he being held now?

52:54

-

He's in Guantanamo now.

52:56

Interviewer

And he testified against you?

52:59

-

He said it was formed deposition against me

53:02

and again, in the government report

53:04

it looks very damning.

53:06

He was able to describe Corsetti's tattoos in detail.

53:07

I got a lot of tattoos

53:11

and most of them are covered up by my clothing

53:13

at the time this was the only one that showed.

53:16

And he was able to describe this one tattoo

53:19

of the Virgin Mary, because I remember he actually

53:25

I remember him saying to me, how can you do this to me

53:28

when you got the Virgin Mary on your arm?

53:32

And it actually made me stop and think,

53:34

you know?

53:38

It was very, it was...

53:39

There's not many moments

53:41

of interrogation that stick out in my head

53:42

but that is one.

53:44

But it's like they just took for gospel,

53:48

everything this guy said.

53:51

And he started making very outrageous accusations

53:54

which I was like, they're not, there's no way in hell

53:59

they're gonna, but sure enough,

54:01

they were like, "Oh yeah, believe this guy

54:03

"believe him now."

54:05

(laughs)

54:07

I don't know.

54:08

You know and he all of a sudden became a good guy

54:09

and that's really how I found our government works

54:12

when you see their purposes,

54:13

hey, you're their best friend.

54:15

And, you know, they believe everything you say

54:17

and then the second you

54:20

the second they no longer feel that way about you

54:21

everything you say is a lie.

54:24

Interviewer

Did you think you were gonna go to prison?

54:29

Before--

54:31

-

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

I was convinced I was gonna go to prison.

54:35

I was so convinced that when they brought me in

54:40

to read my verdict,

54:42

my knees buckled and I just completely

54:45

collapsed and started crying

54:47

and I was, it was,

54:49

it wasn't that it was over and it wasn't that I got away.

54:51

I was crying because I had lost all faith

54:54

in my fellow soldier, all faith in them.

54:57

And when they came back and said not guilty on all counts

55:01

and again, there was things like smoking hash

55:04

and drinking and cussing

55:09

(laughs)

55:11

that I did.

55:12

And then there was some jury nullification involved

55:13

which didn't sit well with a lot of people

55:16

in the international community that,

55:18

oh, they're just

55:19

they obviously did,

55:20

even the stuff they admitted to.

55:21

But I mean, really, it was just formally

55:23

yeah, morally, I did some horrible things,

55:26

legally, not really.

55:28

Legally on a, you know, on paper I didn't.

55:31

but on a moral level, ethical level, I definitely did.

55:35

You know?

55:40

Interviewer

What moral ethical things?

55:41

-

I just did not...

55:43

There's things that damn humanity.

55:46

And I think that it's our job

55:51

to make the world a better place.

55:53

Again as idealistic as that sounds,

55:55

it really is our job

55:58

and if we do our things on our own level,

55:59

I can't control the bombing in Boston

56:02

but what I can control is still smiling

56:04

even though I do have, even though you know

56:08

I do have animosity towards I'm sorry,

56:11

towards Arab people.

56:14

And I don't like that I'm like that,

56:16

but it's an emotion that I have

56:18

but the way that I can end

56:19

and I'm not saying that this bombing was not, you know

56:21

it was probably something here.

56:23

But what I can do on my level is still smile

56:25

when I say the store clerk,

56:29

or when I'm sitting at a bar with an Arab guy

56:31

not getting up and moving

56:34

and putting myself outside

56:36

of my comfort zone because it's really

56:37

for the betterment of humanity that, that happens

56:39

and just treating people as human beings

56:41

no matter who you are, Afghan, you know, whatever,

56:43

they're still human beings, still a human being.

56:50

And I lost sight of that.

56:52

And I started not looking at these people as human

56:55

and looking at them as numbers

56:59

and looking at them as evil.

57:01

But there's not,

57:03

there's people

57:05

even the terrorists are not evil.

57:06

They're good and evil.

57:08

They have good and bad in them as all of us do

57:09

we all have our demons and, you know,

57:11

hey, they chose a different way, but you can't really say

57:13

that you wouldn't have turned out like that

57:17

if you were raised and sent to a madrassa

57:20

and raised in the environment that they were raised in

57:23

you can't say that you would be any different, you know?

57:25

Interviewer

You didn't think that

57:31

when you started, you think that more now.

57:32

-

More now.

57:34

Yeah.

57:35

This isn't even

57:36

the one benefit to me of my trial

57:37

you know, I try to look at how things did benefit me.

57:39

And even my trial benefited me

57:42

in a way that it caused me to reflect and say,

57:44

you know, did I do anything wrong?

57:47

That was the first time I ever really questioned,

57:49

did I do anything wrong was while my trial was going on.

57:51

And I really struggled with that for a long time.

57:54

And I didn't until after my trial

57:57

come to the conclusion of yes, I did.

57:59

And I think it was just a defense mechanism

58:01

within myself of, I couldn't

58:04

while my trial was going on, look at myself as guilty.

58:06

I couldn't, I don't think my body

58:09

was allowing me to do that.

58:11

And then afterwards through talking about it

58:15

and, you know, because that was the other thing

58:18

about the trial is that I couldn't.

58:20

Being in the military,

58:22

I could not talk to a therapist in the military

58:23

because my company commander

58:27

could subpoena my medical records.

58:31

It's not like the civilian world.

58:32

They can pry into your medical history.

58:34

And so I couldn't talk about this stuff with anybody.

58:37

My lawyer was four and a half hours away in Georgia.

58:40

And this isn't the kind that

58:44

you don't talk to your mom about how you treat prisoners.

58:46

That's not a conversation

58:51

just war in general is not something you would talk

58:52

to your family about it's ugly stuff.

58:54

And so I had to suppress all this stuff for years and years.

58:57

And then when I was finally able to

59:02

start dealing with it and talking about it

59:05

I started feeling a lot better,

59:08

which came with my sobriety, you know,

59:10

getting off hard drugs.

59:15

That was, it was definitely just this flood of,

59:19

how I've got to deal with all this.

59:21

And like when my trial was going on

59:23

you know, I tried not in a gesturing attempt

59:26

I made a very serious attempt on my life

59:30

and, you know, thank God I didn't

59:32

I received medical attention quick enough, but I was

59:35

I've never been at a lower point

59:40

I didn't know who I was anymore.

59:42

I was just completely lost

59:45

in this world at that time in my life.

59:47

And it makes it, it still makes me very sad

59:48

to think about that because I really was just lost.

59:50

Interviewer

And you had no one to talk to?

59:54

-

I couldn't, I couldn't

59:56

my friends were testifying against me.

59:58

I didn't trust anyone.

1:00:01

I still don't trust people really

1:00:06

that never really went away.

1:00:08

But, you know, I did, after my trial was over

1:00:10

I did a freedom of information on myself.

1:00:13

(laughs)

1:00:16

The stuff I got back, they were sending people

1:00:17

out in the strip clubs with me to gather information on me.

1:00:19

And it was like, I had everybody that was close

1:00:23

to me at this time in my life was all feeding information

1:00:25

to criminal investigations.

1:00:28

I don't know, I felt betrayed.

1:00:33

I still feel very betrayed

1:00:37

by that.

1:00:40

I don't, it's one of those things that like,

1:00:44

I can look at a lot of stuff and say,

1:00:46

okay, eventually with time this is gonna go away.

1:00:48

But that's one of those things that

1:00:50

I think I'm always gonna have a lot of animosity about that

1:00:52

whole experience.

1:00:55

And that the people that were charging me

1:00:59

they knew what happened.

1:01:01

They were just playing the company line of,

1:01:03

okay, somebody's got to pay

1:01:05

that's all they know, these sons of bitches.

1:01:07

That's the part they don't tell you

1:01:15

about the military, you know,

1:01:16

is that, hey, by the way

1:01:18

they're gonna try to pin it

1:01:20

on the lowest ranking people possible.

1:01:21

I mean, even going up, you know, they made the

1:01:23

a lot of people have made comments

1:01:26

about there was no officers charged in,

1:01:27

that's beside the point

1:01:30

because the officers that they would have charged would

1:01:31

they weren't making decisions.

1:01:35

They were doing the same thing we were,

1:01:37

they were just, they were doing what they were told

1:01:39

and under the best legal guidance that they had at the time

1:01:41

they couldn't refuse the order.

1:01:44

So,

1:01:47

yeah, back to the question, I just, I didn't

1:01:50

I didn't treat human beings like human beings.

1:01:54

You know, that's probably, I did not

1:02:01

I worsened humanity during a time of my life.

1:02:04

That's what I guess I'm trying to say is those times

1:02:08

in my life I didn't,

1:02:11

I not only did not make the world a better place

1:02:12

I wasn't just passive

1:02:14

and watching things go by

1:02:15

I actually had an opposite effect

1:02:17

and worsened humanity,

1:02:19

I feel for what I did.

1:02:21

Interviewer

But is that why they selected you?

1:02:24

They picked on you as opposed

1:02:27

to some of the other interrogators?

1:02:29

-

I think it was, you know

1:02:31

I really wish I had taken the severity

1:02:33

of what was going on at the time,

1:02:36

a lot better, but I didn't really have a grasp

1:02:39

on the severity of the situation.

1:02:41

And so I joked around with the investigators

1:02:43

and had fun with them at their expense

1:02:46

and I really pissed them off.

1:02:48

I know I pissed the investigators off

1:02:51

and that probably wasn't the brightest thing to do.

1:02:54

You know, I was kind of putting my bright

1:02:57

armed shirt on saying, look at me.

1:02:59

I should probably just kept my mouth shut.

1:03:03

Yes, sir no, sir.

1:03:06

I'd like a lawyer, sir

1:03:07

and that should have been the end of it,

1:03:08

but I chose to

1:03:09

to sit there and pick on them

1:03:11

and that wasn't very good to me, I guess.

1:03:14

Well, it wasn't the smartest decision I ever made.

1:03:17

Interviewer

So why did you think,

1:03:20

you thought you were gonna be found guilty of something?

1:03:22

-

Of something yeah.

1:03:26

Interviewer

Because you felt somewhat

1:03:28

because you had done some things that you knew that--

1:03:30

-

No, it was that I'd seen every

1:03:34

I was the very last person to go to trial

1:03:36

on all this stuff.

1:03:38

And I'd seen everybody else, you know, plead

1:03:40

most of them have pled and you know

1:03:43

the ones I really didn't know anybody that had fought it

1:03:47

and had a good outcome from it.

1:03:50

And that's,

1:03:52

I had a really good lawyer

1:03:54

at least I think he was.

1:03:57

(laughs)

1:03:58

Interviewer

A military lawyer?

1:03:58

-

No, no.

1:03:59

Well, I did have a good military lawyer,

1:04:00

Major Ryan Dowdy.

1:04:03

He was an excellent JAG attorney.

1:04:04

But no, I ended up firing

1:04:08

one of my military counsels

1:04:09

and hiring a civilian counsel here,

1:04:12

he lives in Augusta, named William Cassara.

1:04:14

And he was a great lawyer,

1:04:17

he was a great litigator.

1:04:20

You know, he could sit there and he could read

1:04:24

I always like a man who's like a ballet

1:04:26

a BS with that guy in the courtroom

1:04:27

he really, he really could talk.

1:04:29

(laughs)

1:04:31

Interviewer

How did you know where to find him?

1:04:33

-

After my article 32 hearing, which is the grand jury.

1:04:35

They came back with all the charges went through

1:04:43

not a single one of them got dropped

1:04:46

and I called my family

1:04:49

and I said, "If you don't get me a lawyer

1:04:51

"I'm getting ready to go to prison for a very long time."

1:04:54

And, you know, thank God my family could, you know,

1:04:57

take out another mortgage on their house and got me

1:05:01

hired me a civilian counsel.

1:05:03

And I think had I not done that

1:05:06

I would have probably ended up pleading to

1:05:08

'cause my initial counsel was trying

1:05:10

to get me to plead to like all this crazy stuff

1:05:12

and I was like, "But didn't do that."

1:05:15

I was like, "This is what I did."

1:05:17

And they would, if the prosecution

1:05:20

and here's what

1:05:22

the overzealousness of the prosecutor is that

1:05:24

if they had just let me plead guilty to what I actually did

1:05:27

they could have had their convictions.

1:05:30

I was willing to plead guilty to everything I actually did.

1:05:32

Interviewer

Which is like what?

1:05:36

-

The cussing, the smoking pot, the drinking

1:05:38

and one of the assault charges.

1:05:42

Because, you know, I did tell you,

1:05:44

anytime you put your hands

1:05:47

on somebody unwanted is an assault.

1:05:49

(laughs)

1:05:51

Ans so I was like,

1:05:52

you know, I did this,

1:05:53

I can't say that I didn't move this guy's head by his beard

1:05:55

I did that.

1:05:58

Okay.

1:06:01

And, but they wanted more, they wanted more

1:06:02

and that was the only...

1:06:05

'Cause I mean, up until my trial was delayed

1:06:06

by like an hour and a half

1:06:08

'cause we were negotiating

1:06:09

trying to negotiate a plea you know.

1:06:10

And they just, they would not, they wanted more and more

1:06:14

and they wouldn't actually accept me

1:06:16

pleading what I actually did.

1:06:18

And so I wasn't gonna

1:06:19

I wasn't gonna plead guilty to something I didn't do.

1:06:21

So I mean, it might seem like a good idea at the time,

1:06:24

"Hey, weren't you gonna get less than three years

1:06:29

"if you just plead to this stuff, if you go to trial

1:06:31

"you're looking at potentially the rest of your life."

1:06:34

And so you know, a three-year sentence it really,

1:06:38

and people are like, well, how can you

1:06:41

if I wasn't guilty, you know, don't say that

1:06:43

unless you're in that situation like,

1:06:45

when you're facing a lot of time and somebody comes

1:06:47

to you with three years, you're like three years

1:06:49

sounds great.

1:06:51

(laughs)

1:06:52

Like I'll get to do three years

1:06:54

I'll get my degree or something.

1:06:55

(laughs)

1:06:57

But yeah.

1:07:01

And they wouldn't,

1:07:02

they kept wanting more and more and more

1:07:03

and I wouldn't do it.

1:07:05

Interviewer

So during the trial you're expected

1:07:07

to be frank I think,

1:07:10

why do you think you weren't?

1:07:11

-

Because the panelpy...

1:07:14

I think had I gone with just the judge

1:07:16

I would have been, I would have been,

1:07:19

he would have found me guilty.

1:07:21

He was not defense friendly at all.

1:07:23

And I chose a panel, which in a

1:07:26

court's marshal environment,

1:07:30

choosing a jury is not the wise choice.

1:07:32

Normally that's very stupid because you're,

1:07:36

yeah, you're getting your peers,

1:07:39

but your peers are colonels and sergeants major.

1:07:41

You know, they're not, it's not private

1:07:44

Snuffy's sitting there going,

1:07:46

"Well, gee, I've done the same thing

1:07:48

"gosh, golly."

1:07:49

No, no it's these old crusty men that

1:07:51

like they're battle-hardened

1:07:54

and they have a very low tolerance for any insubordination

1:07:56

anything outside of good order and discipline

1:07:59

in the military and they're there to punish you.

1:08:02

And I guess I just lucked out with those guys

1:08:04

and what I noticed with my panel is that there was a lot

1:08:07

of panel members that were special operations soldiers

1:08:10

and I think that had a lot to do with it

1:08:14

and that they were fresh out of the battlefield too

1:08:15

even though being a Sergeant major, Colonel

1:08:18

they were fresh from the battlefield

1:08:21

and they were like,

1:08:22

"Oh no, I know this goes on

1:08:24

"I get briefed on this going on, actually."

1:08:26

So I think that was it.

1:08:29

Interviewer

And when it was over,

1:08:32

what happened then?

1:08:36

-

Oh man, that was probably the,

1:08:39

I was in the military for three more months

1:08:41

after my trial was over.

1:08:43

And that was probably the worst three months

1:08:45

I was in the military.

1:08:48

'Cause I mean, if my boots weren't shined

1:08:49

if my uniform wasn't perfectly pressed,

1:08:51

they were writing me up

1:08:53

trying to get me on a bad conduct discharge

1:08:55

as bad as possible.

1:08:57

When I showed back up at my unit,

1:08:58

they were super pissed that I was there.

1:09:00

'Cause they knew that that meant

1:09:04

that I was right the whole time that, eh, and so

1:09:05

I don't know, I don't know,

1:09:11

that three months sucked that three months was horrible

1:09:14

and unbearable and they tried everything under the sun

1:09:17

to get me on a bad conduct discharge.

1:09:20

And I really just had to stay quiet

1:09:22

and do what I was told to do.

1:09:25

Interviewer

Well, were you feeling better

1:09:30

or were you?

1:09:31

-

No, I thought I would.

1:09:32

I thought that, okay

1:09:34

and I thought that, you know

1:09:36

everybody kept telling me,

1:09:37

oh, you just under a lot of stress

1:09:38

'cause of your trial

1:09:39

once trial is over you'll be back to yourself

1:09:40

and it never came.

1:09:41

And maybe at that point I was so far into drugs.

1:09:42

I don't know that if it was just the drugs

1:09:47

though at that point

1:09:49

like I was in such a deep depression

1:09:50

that I just

1:09:53

I never really snapped out of that

1:09:53

for a few years

1:09:55

after my trial was over.

1:09:56

I mean, it was,

1:09:58

I mean, it still sits with me today.

1:10:00

There's parts of it that affect me.

1:10:02

But I mean, it was the depression of that happening

1:10:04

never, It was probably two years after it was over

1:10:07

before I started to feel any better.

1:10:10

Interviewer

Did you testify at your trial?

1:10:13

-

No, I didn't take the stand.

1:10:15

Interviewer

And are you saying you took drugs

1:10:17

during your trial?

1:10:19

-

Oh, yeah.

1:10:20

Oh, yeah I was in the...

1:10:21

And you know, I can speak for myself

1:10:24

and what I witnessed in the military

1:10:26

is that cocaine use is rampant in the military

1:10:28

because it's out of your system in three days

1:10:31

and you can't smoke pot

1:10:34

and people wanna get fucked up

1:10:36

because they got to deal

1:10:38

with the horrible shit that they just did overseas.

1:10:39

And so

1:10:42

I was probably going through like

1:10:46

eight ball, a day of cocaine.

1:10:48

I was using a lot of cocaine.

1:10:49

Saluting the flag with my hand,

1:10:53

shaking hadn't slept in six seven days sometimes

1:10:55

and drinking, drinking

1:10:58

before I went to work during lunch

1:11:03

I mean, it was,

1:11:04

I was really just a mess during that time period and

1:11:06

you know, I mean, I'm not proud

1:11:13

and I don't wanna make it sound like I'm glorifying

1:11:15

that at all, I'm not,

1:11:17

like it's, I'm really ashamed

1:11:18

of that part of my life, but I did that.

1:11:19

I lived it and I made those decisions to live it that way.

1:11:21

And I was definitely worse off

1:11:25

for having made those decisions.

1:11:28

Interviewer

And your lawyer didn't try to

1:11:30

get you off something?

1:11:32

-

I don't know that he really knew

1:11:35

I did kind of clean up whenever I'd go see him.

1:11:37

(laughs)

1:11:40

No, it was--

1:11:42

Interviewer

And was it out of fear that you took it?

1:11:44

-

I don't know what it was

1:11:49

that I started using cocaine it was

1:11:50

desperation I don't know.

1:11:55

I was looking for an out somehow, you know

1:11:57

maybe it was passively suicidal.

1:12:00

I mean, I was doing very large amounts and

1:12:02

of an extremely, I knew like Fayetteville,

1:12:07

North Carolina they'd get really great cocaine in there

1:12:09

because the counter narcotics special forces units

1:12:11

that do all the counter narco bring back great cocaine

1:12:14

with them when they come back, they don't burn it all.

1:12:17

And so I think that it was,

1:12:20

I was doing drugs

1:12:24

there were times where I would do things

1:12:25

not caring if I was gonna die.

1:12:27

Like I don't, not gonna say that was my intention

1:12:28

in doing it but well,

1:12:31

I was just like fuck it

1:12:32

this would be a nice way to go.

1:12:33

Yeah, just poor decisions.

1:12:39

Just that's all it was, it was poor decisions.

1:12:41

Interviewer

And you said you started reflecting

1:12:43

during the trial about your life

1:12:45

and then during those few months after

1:12:46

were you still reflecting

1:12:49

or were you just still coming out of the--

1:12:50

-

I was really just in such a haze at that point in my life.

1:12:53

I really don't remember much of it

1:12:58

other than I was miserable when I went to work, you know,

1:13:00

I mean, I literally would mop the same floor

1:13:03

that's roughly, you know, maybe a 40 by 30 concrete floor

1:13:05

I would mop it for eight hours a day

1:13:09

and that was my job.

1:13:12

Interviewer

But that's mind listening

1:13:15

it might be a good thing.

1:13:16

-

Yeah, I mean, I actually got to the point

1:13:17

where I started having fun with it and, you know

1:13:20

folding tips on the toilet paper in the bathroom

1:13:22

for the female or at the female officer bathroom,

1:13:26

I'd put little tips on the toilet paper and stuff for them.

1:13:28

I tried to have fun with it and it did help me focus.

1:13:32

There was, I had

1:13:36

I definitely had some Zen moments mopping that floor.

1:13:37

I really did.

1:13:41

Interviewer

And did you have any people

1:13:43

you could talk to then once it was over?

1:13:44

-

No, I mean, I really was a pariah at my unit

1:13:47

like it was just

1:13:52

just stay away from that guy.

1:13:54

Interviewer

No one cared to reach out to you?

1:13:57

-

No, well, I'm not gonna say nobody

1:14:00

there were a few people that were left

1:14:05

'cause a lot of people that go into that job field

1:14:07

they go into the same intentions I do,

1:14:10

I'm gonna go do this

1:14:12

and then I'm gonna get out

1:14:13

and go make six figures a year.

1:14:14

And so a lot of them had gotten out

1:14:16

there were a few that had stayed in

1:14:18

but they had been transferred so far away from me

1:14:19

that they really had no direct involvement in

1:14:22

my day-to-day life, but they would still

1:14:25

they were still very compassionate to me

1:14:27

and treated me like a human being

1:14:29

and that's when I really understood

1:14:31

how much it means to just be treated like a human being.

1:14:33

Interviewer

And then when you were released

1:14:40

three months later, what happened then?

1:14:43

-

I kind of bounced around between.

1:14:48

I bounced in strip clubs and biker bars

1:14:51

and I lived a very rough life for the next

1:14:54

three years,

1:14:59

a very rough life.

1:15:02

And dove further and deeper started using heroin.

1:15:05

You know, I know it's very trendy to eat pills now

1:15:10

but I just skipped those and went right for the dope.

1:15:13

And I just wanted to, like, I was like

1:15:17

I couldn't separate myself enough from reality.

1:15:18

I couldn't get high enough to get away

1:15:22

from everything and I just didn't wanna deal

1:15:24

I was so used to not dealing with the events

1:15:27

of the whole, all the events, the trial.

1:15:30

I can't really separate the trial from the war

1:15:32

from the training, from the treatment

1:15:35

because it really is all one event to me.

1:15:37

And I never dealt with it until maybe two, three years

1:15:40

after my trial

1:15:45

'cause I just, I really just tried to run

1:15:47

from all of it as much as I could.

1:15:49

I never saw an infamy who does

1:15:52

who wants to be an infamous character in history?

1:15:56

Like that's not good.

1:15:58

So, you know

1:16:03

but maybe I needed to suppress it and you know,

1:16:05

like I didn't talk about it

1:16:07

until I was ready to talk about it.

1:16:08

And until, and you know, I guess the sad thing is

1:16:10

is that I can't really my accounts

1:16:13

of what happened then are very blurred.

1:16:17

And I can't say that everything,

1:16:19

hey, this is exactly how it happened.

1:16:20

So I don't really, I can't really say that

1:16:23

I have a hard time, you know,

1:16:25

I do have some mental conditions and I do

1:16:27

I told my psychologist all the time

1:16:30

I sometimes have a hard time separating

1:16:31

did this really even happen?

1:16:33

I really do it.

1:16:36

And so I wish that I had maybe started talking

1:16:38

about it earlier so that I had a more accurate account

1:16:40

for myself of what actually went on.

1:16:43

But you know, when you wait six years suppressing things

1:16:46

for six years and then trying to deal with them all at once.

1:16:49

And sometimes I'll still remember things

1:16:52

like with us talking

1:16:54

I'll remember stuff like I just remembered

1:16:59

what I wanted to tell you.

1:17:00

Would you like me to go--

1:17:01

Interviewer

Yes, please.

-

Into that real quick, okay.

1:17:02

When Obama got inaugurated, I was actually

1:17:05

in Guantanamo for the Omar Khadr.

1:17:08

Then, so that's how much hope I had in the guy.

1:17:12

He called off the trials that day.

1:17:16

And I was like, all right, times they are changing.

1:17:18

Then, so I wanted to really emphasize just

1:17:22

how much hope I had in him at that time.

1:17:25

That's it.

1:17:30

Interviewer

So, hat pulled you out of your

1:17:31

deep depression and drug use after two or three years?

1:17:34

-

Well, my wife left me with my child and

1:17:38

I don't blame her I was an animal

1:17:49

I used to beat the shit out of her.

1:17:51

So you know, I don't, I totally understand

1:17:54

I'm glad she left me

1:17:57

I would never have

1:17:58

I would never have started my progression in life

1:17:59

had she not left me.

1:18:01

But that caused me to go to rehab

1:18:05

and I got off of hard drugs

1:18:08

and I started going to, I met a therapist

1:18:10

no, he wasn't even therapist

1:18:15

he was social worker at the VA that I had met.

1:18:16

And he was a Vietnam vet

1:18:19

and he and I,

1:18:20

after just talking to each other casually

1:18:22

the VA wasn't willing to give me a therapist.

1:18:24

So I was like, well, can I just come in and talk to you?

1:18:27

And that really started me talking

1:18:29

which was nice because I really,

1:18:34

I had tried to talk about

1:18:36

these events before that, before my trial.

1:18:38

And it was almost as if I had a physical reaction

1:18:40

of my throat would close up

1:18:42

and my eyes would well up with tears

1:18:44

and I couldn't get any words out.

1:18:45

I would just sit there and cry and I wanted to talk.

1:18:47

I wanted to tell people something other than, you know

1:18:51

what I've done.

1:18:54

I wanted to actually tell people what I had done.

1:18:55

And, you know, that's really what interrogation is

1:18:59

that's why it's easy to tell

1:19:02

when people are lying

1:19:03

is 'cause you have a physical response to lying.

1:19:04

You don't want to lie.

1:19:06

You wanna tell the truth, everybody does.

1:19:07

Just some, you know,

1:19:09

your shame prevents you from doing it in most cases.

1:19:10

And I would say I merry

1:19:14

so happy the first time I was offered

1:19:16

to start giving specifics

1:19:18

of accounts that had taken place

1:19:19

and things like that.

1:19:23

It was a real milestone for me

1:19:26

that I was able to even talk about it

1:19:31

I would get a word and be like,

1:19:33

"Hey, here's what I did, this is what I did."

1:19:34

And it did me some good to say that

1:19:38

to take accountability

1:19:41

because I'd always get that point past the book.

1:19:42

I was the government, the government,

1:19:44

the government, government,

1:19:45

government, damn Bush, damn Rumsfeld and Cheney.

1:19:47

And I never, ever, ever really sat back

1:19:49

until that point and said, well, what did I do?

1:19:52

What could I have changed?

1:19:54

And,

1:19:56

it was then that I realized, well, I did make choices.

1:19:58

They might not have

1:20:01

maybe they wouldn't have had the outcome

1:20:03

I would have hope

1:20:04

but I don't know that 'cause I didn't do it.

1:20:05

So I was able to start

1:20:08

and rehab helped me do that too.

1:20:09

I'm not being on the whole higher power

1:20:12

and all that, but the step of taking accountability

1:20:14

of your life definitely was life-changing for me.

1:20:17

And it made me realize that I wasn't really happy

1:20:20

with the person that I was and who I'd become.

1:20:22

And, you know, that's what made me say, okay, you know

1:20:25

so people can change now,

1:20:28

yeah, people can change

1:20:29

they just have to want to

1:20:30

and it's gonna be on their time

1:20:31

it's not gonna be,

1:20:32

oh, you should be a better person

1:20:33

they have to wanna do it.

1:20:34

And I guess that's when I wanted to do it.

1:20:36

I sat there and I did my moral inventory

1:20:37

and I was like, man, I'm not a nice person.

1:20:39

Like, I wouldn't wanna be around me.

1:20:42

So, you know, I had to start making life changes.

1:20:44

And

1:20:46

that's it.

1:20:49

Interviewer

And that was a...

1:20:51

Once you kind of came to that realization

1:20:54

was it kind of easy in a way?

1:20:56

-

No, it was very difficult.

1:20:58

It was very,

1:20:59

it was extremely difficult to start dealing with that stuff

1:21:02

and it's still trying on me.

1:21:05

I don't really care to talk

1:21:11

about this stuff that much anymore.

1:21:12

I've talked about it and I've

1:21:15

me and my therapist are even at the point where

1:21:17

she doesn't think it does mean a good

1:21:19

to talk about it.

1:21:21

At the same time

1:21:25

you know, there's things like this

1:21:26

like this is an important project and serves a good purpose.

1:21:27

This isn't for your fame and glory

1:21:31

this is for the people.

1:21:32

And so, you know,

1:21:34

as much as I don't like to talk about it

1:21:37

there's still things that come up like this

1:21:37

where it's like, okay, you know,

1:21:40

maybe my input would be helpful maybe.

1:21:41

And I guess my hope is that people don't, you know,

1:21:44

I really I've gotten past what people think of me.

1:21:48

So, you know, people gonna think what they think of me but

1:21:51

I guess I'd really wanna emphasize

1:21:55

to people that, hey, this could be you.

1:21:58

If you were taken

1:22:01

from your situation and put into this,

1:22:03

don't think that your decisions

1:22:06

would be greatly different than my own.

1:22:07

I'm not, I wasn't this person

1:22:09

when I went there, I became this person

1:22:11

and it was through the environment I was in

1:22:14

that that happened.

1:22:17

And for people just to realize we all, you know,

1:22:22

we all got little evil in us.

1:22:24

We all do.

1:22:26

And you know

1:22:27

it's our job to find that balance to say,

1:22:28

okay, well, this isn't the right way to live

1:22:31

but we all fall short of that.

1:22:33

You know, I used to really beat myself up all the time.

1:22:35

How could I do this?

1:22:36

How could I do this?

1:22:37

And then I came to the conclusion that I'm an ass hole

1:22:38

and so is everybody else on this earth.

1:22:40

We all make poor choices at times.

1:22:42

And some of us are 22 and handling national security

1:22:44

when we make those bad choices.

1:22:48

And that just so happened to be my set of circumstances.

1:22:52

Interviewer

And so you had said that you had PTSD.

1:22:57

Do you see yourself moving forward away from that over time?

1:23:03

-

No.

1:23:08

No.

1:23:09

I'm more in touch with it now

1:23:13

and I'm more in tune to know that

1:23:15

I'm at a point where I can be amongst society.

1:23:18

I still don't feel that I can integrate into society

1:23:23

and be a part of it

1:23:26

and I don't know that I ever feel

1:23:27

I'll be a functioning member of society and beneficial

1:23:29

and, you know, in a productive sense.

1:23:34

I just know now when I wake up,

1:23:39

well, maybe I shouldn't go outside today

1:23:41

maybe I should hunker down

1:23:43

and not be amongst the masses.

1:23:46

You know, 'cause I mean, there's some days

1:23:54

where I walk around and that's really

1:23:55

a lot of people have a misconception of PTSD

1:23:58

they think that, you know,

1:24:00

they're picturing people jumping

1:24:01

behind the bushes saying Charlie's in the wire

1:24:03

and it's not like that

1:24:05

it's a social impairment that I have.

1:24:08

It's a need to exact vengeance when I feel wronged.

1:24:11

It's a rage that takes over me at times

1:24:18

and I just need directing.

1:24:21

You know, it took me recognizing

1:24:22

okay, I'm very susceptible

1:24:24

to being in a rage state today.

1:24:25

I just need to not be out

1:24:27

or there's a good chance I could get incarcerated.

1:24:29

So that's really what it is.

1:24:31

And then you get sad because for days on end

1:24:33

sometimes weeks on end where I'm just in my house

1:24:37

and had I not somebody living with me

1:24:39

who could go get me the necessities of life

1:24:41

I would just sit there and wilt away

1:24:43

and probably get further and further into my own depression.

1:24:46

(exhales)

1:24:51

But, you know, I mean, I deal with it

1:24:53

and I deal with it without the use of pharmaceuticals

1:24:54

and I'm very happy about that.

1:24:57

And that's just it

1:25:00

it's just that I'm dealing.

1:25:01

And that's what PTSD is also

1:25:02

is an inability to deal with stress.

1:25:03

And even though I don't think my ability to deal

1:25:06

with stress is any better,

1:25:09

I do think that the length

1:25:11

of my reaction to it is gotten shorter.

1:25:12

I'm not gonna say less frequent

1:25:17

but it's definitely gotten shorter.

1:25:18

I used to get sick for months

1:25:20

and now I get sick for weeks and days.

1:25:21

Interviewer

Well then, I mean,

1:25:25

you used the hope with Obama, but I mean,

1:25:27

could be hope here too, right?

1:25:29

-

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong

1:25:31

I mean, I've progressed leaps and bounds

1:25:33

beyond where I was five years ago.

1:25:35

But it's still pretty bad.

1:25:38

It's like

1:25:40

you know it's...

1:25:44

Can I smoke?

1:25:45

Can I smoke?

1:25:46

-

Just take time out.

1:25:47

-

Yeah, of course--

-

Yeah, let me go smoke a cigarette real quick.

1:25:49

-

Sure.

1:25:50

-

Sorry, sorry.

-

Take your time.

1:25:51

Interviewer

Like you mean, (indistinct).

1:25:52

-

Okay, we're rolling.

1:25:55

-

Yeah I mean, I think that people today just have

1:25:57

either a lack of empathy or choose to ignore it,

1:26:00

ignore what they feel

1:26:04

and whether it's to make themselves feel better,

1:26:07

I don't try to, you know

1:26:09

figure out what everybody on this earth is thinking

1:26:10

that's not gonna help,

1:26:12

that's gonna frustrate the hell out of you.

1:26:13

But at the same time

1:26:15

I don't understand how you can see what goes on,

1:26:18

you don't, it's the information age

1:26:22

it's not hidden the atrocities that go on around our world

1:26:26

and not just around our world

1:26:30

and our neighboring country and our own country.

1:26:31

And they will just choose to ignore it.

1:26:35

People choose to ignore their fellow humans that are not

1:26:37

not just living to their level

1:26:42

that are truly in need that are in need of humanity.

1:26:45

That, you know, they're sitting there

1:26:50

sucking on a daily basis

1:26:52

and people just wanna turn a blind eye to it

1:26:54

and act like it doesn't exist

1:26:56

or maybe these people put themselves in that situation.

1:26:57

Or I don't, you know,

1:27:00

when I went through rehab at the VA

1:27:03

I was the only person that was not homeless

1:27:06

in the VA rehab's thing there.

1:27:09

I was the only one that had a roof

1:27:11

and a home to get mail to and things like that.

1:27:13

And one thing that I realized is that

1:27:16

even our own homeless population

1:27:18

people do not look at them as human beings.

1:27:19

People they'll talk to them

1:27:22

and they won't even acknowledge them

1:27:23

won't even say, no, I don't have a dollar for you.

1:27:24

They just don't talk to us like you know.

1:27:26

And that really, you know

1:27:30

being there made me grateful for a lot of things,

1:27:32

but it also made me see how these, again,

1:27:38

US citizens, veterans, homeless

1:27:41

that were treated just like by their fellow Americans.

1:27:45

Yeah, not everybody that has a piece

1:27:50

of cardboard is really a vet, but a lot of them are.

1:27:53

And even if they're not

1:27:56

it's still a human being, still a human being.

1:27:57

And

1:28:01

you know and I guess that kind of

1:28:03

is what infuriates me even more

1:28:05

is like these same people that treat people

1:28:06

like this on a daily basis

1:28:09

dare question what I did.

1:28:10

Dare question how I treated these people this way

1:28:12

and chances are you know,

1:28:16

they stepped over a sleeping homeless person

1:28:18

on their way to their office.

1:28:20

You know, these same people wanna point their fingers.

1:28:23

Interviewer

So this might be an odd question,

1:28:28

but looking back,

1:28:32

are you sorry you went into the military?

1:28:33

-

No, I mean, it definitely, it made me accountable

1:28:38

made me to the point where I was willing to

1:28:41

be accountable for myself

1:28:43

'cause you're forced to be

1:28:45

accountable for your actions.

1:28:46

And I needed that and I needed the direction

1:28:49

I needed the discipline at the time.

1:28:51

And you know, I really didn't have any of that.

1:28:54

I was not, I was by no means at 20 years old,

1:28:56

I was not a man.

1:28:59

I was still very much a child at 20

1:29:00

with a child's mind and wanting to do childish things.

1:29:02

And

1:29:06

so I guess some,

1:29:10

like I looked back, I looked back at my life

1:29:12

and I'm very pleased, I'm very pleased

1:29:13

with who I am today.

1:29:16

I'm pleased with how I treat people

1:29:17

I'm pleased at the father that I am to my children.

1:29:18

I'm pleased with the son that I am to my parents.

1:29:22

And I'm very happy with that.

1:29:25

And I wouldn't be this person who I am had I not gone

1:29:26

through all of this just horrible experience.

1:29:29

And at the same time,

1:29:33

as mad as I am that I had to go through it

1:29:34

I'm very grateful because it ultimately led me

1:29:36

to a point where I am okay with myself.

1:29:39

And I really don't think most people can say that.

1:29:42

I really don't think most people are happy with themselves.

1:29:44

And like, that's the best feeling

1:29:47

I've ever had is just being okay with myself,

1:29:50

not looking at myself and thinking,

1:29:53

oh, I'm a horrible person.

1:29:55

I would have never gotten here

1:29:56

had I not gone through that.

1:29:58

It forced me into the mindset that I'm in now.

1:30:01

Interviewer

And how old are you?

1:30:04

-

33.

1:30:05

Interviewer

And do you have any sense

1:30:08

of what you might like to do in your future?

1:30:13

As you say, you're getting better in that PTSD.

1:30:17

-

I mean, you know,

1:30:19

I try to think of limitations wise,

1:30:23

what I'm capable of doing now.

1:30:25

And, you know, ideally I would love to be a lawyer.

1:30:27

I would love to go to go be a public defender

1:30:30

and help people who could not afford

1:30:33

American justice is there

1:30:36

you just better be able to afford it.

1:30:37

That's something that's very important

1:30:40

for people to know is that

1:30:42

if you can afford justice, it's there for you

1:30:43

if you can't, you're getting ready to get screwed

1:30:46

because the guy that could afford justice

1:30:49

just bought a Morton steak for the...

1:30:51

His lawyer just bought the prosecutor a Morton steak

1:30:53

and he's gonna walk, you know.

1:30:55

But, you know hopefully I can get to that point in my life.

1:31:04

Interviewer

Wait, can we stop one second, I'm sorry.

1:31:06

-

No problem.

1:31:08

(murmurs)

1:31:09

All right, where were we?

1:31:10

Interviewer

About buying a Morton steak

1:31:11

for the justice.

1:31:13

-

Yeah, I mean, so ideally I would love to be able to step

1:31:14

into a courtroom again one day

1:31:17

and help people in that way.

1:31:21

I know that I wanna help people

1:31:22

I know they I wanna make the world a better place.

1:31:22

I just am trying to find a way

1:31:25

within my social limitations that I can do that.

1:31:26

You know, I'd love to do forestry

1:31:30

but am I really helping humanity

1:31:33

by standing at the top of a tower

1:31:36

looking through binoculars all day?

1:31:38

Sounds great for me, but is it benefiting humanity?

1:31:40

But I guess the point I'm at now

1:31:44

is just there's a lot of things I would love to do,

1:31:46

but I just, I can't, I can't

1:31:48

I've tried to volunteer since I've been

1:31:50

in my current situation

1:31:53

and a lot of volunteer places won't take me because

1:31:55

not because of any kind of past that I have

1:31:59

but just that I can't make a commitment that

1:32:02

yes, I'm gonna be here every Tuesday from this time

1:32:04

to this time, because there's some days where

1:32:06

yeah I can come, but you probably

1:32:09

really don't want me there, you know,

1:32:11

'cause I'm not, you know,

1:32:13

I'm fine now I'm fine today,

1:32:14

but when I'm not having a good day

1:32:16

I'm not a pleasant person to be around.

1:32:17

And I make everybody's life around me miserable.

1:32:19

It's the best just, best just to isolate myself.

1:32:23

And you know, my doctors say that, okay

1:32:25

isolating yourself very bad.

1:32:27

And it might be for me, but it's better for everybody else

1:32:29

if I just don't come into contact with them

1:32:32

when I'm like that.

1:32:34

So if I ever do progress past that point

1:32:36

where I can at least have five good days a week

1:32:41

and be functioning five days a week, then you know

1:32:44

I would love to attempt school again.

1:32:46

And I definitely think I've been disciplined

1:32:49

for it now, but

1:32:50

yeah.

1:32:55

And then of course there's a lot of anxiety

1:32:56

I haven't been in school since 1998.

1:32:57

So there's a lot of anxiety about stuff like that.

1:32:59

I try to do nice things like,

1:33:07

after going through the VA,

1:33:10

I mean, I absolutely do attempt every day

1:33:11

to go out of my way

1:33:14

there's a lot of homeless here

1:33:15

and I definitely attempt to go out of my way

1:33:16

to help them along

1:33:18

and at least say hi to them,

1:33:19

how are you doing

1:33:21

and little things like that,

1:33:22

little things like acknowledging,

1:33:25

hello, fellow human being I see you

1:33:26

and I hope you have a good day.

1:33:30

And I guess that's what I'm capable of now.

1:33:32

And hopefully it can progress as my life goes on.

1:33:35

You know, I can get a little better and better and better.

1:33:39

Like I said, it has over time.

1:33:42

I've leaps and bounds.

1:33:43

When I look over long periods of time,

1:33:45

when I look over a five-year stretch at leaps and bounds

1:33:47

if I think about it month to month, not so much.

1:33:49

Interviewer

And Damien, couldn't it be possible

1:33:55

for you to volunteer at a place

1:33:56

and then if you don't show up one day

1:33:57

they can live with it?

1:33:59

-

Yeah, a lot them.

1:34:00

I really want to find this place.

1:34:03

I really do.

1:34:04

I've checked missions and their

1:34:05

food kitchens, things like that.

1:34:07

And then the other thing I found

1:34:10

is a lot of the faith-based

1:34:12

homeless organizations don't want you to participate

1:34:14

unless you are--

1:34:17

Interviewer

Of that group.

1:34:19

-

Of that group.

1:34:20

(laughs)

1:34:22

And it's like,

1:34:23

look let's just go help these people, you know?

1:34:24

Why would you not want somebody to help?

1:34:26

Oh, well.

1:34:31

Interviewer

And you still get government benefits--

1:34:33

-

Yes, I certainly do.

1:34:37

-

So you're--

1:34:39

-

Financially, financially

I mean, you know, I'm not living high on the horse

1:34:41

but I certainly don't have any worries.

1:34:43

My bills get paid and, you know

1:34:45

I have a good home and a good area.

1:34:47

So, you know, I mean, I'm very

1:34:52

and I'm very fortunate for that

1:34:52

I've got lots of people I knew that are

1:34:54

in three-year backlogs with the VA trying to get benefits.

1:34:56

And you know, it took me three years

1:35:00

but that was a long time ago that I did that but

1:35:02

it's definitely an uphill battle with them

1:35:08

of just trying to get the help you're

1:35:11

that it's like the way I look at the VA

1:35:14

I have a, definitely a love-hate relationship with them

1:35:17

of, you know I lived up to my end of the bargain

1:35:20

now it's your turn

1:35:22

it's your turn to do what you said you were gonna do

1:35:24

and they don't like to.

1:35:27

(laughs)

1:35:29

Interviewer

Had you been found guilty

1:35:31

you would have lost those benefits right?

1:35:33

-

Yes, yes.

1:35:34

I have a co-defendant very good friend of mine

1:35:35

who lives in South Texas who

1:35:39

definitely lost all his benefits

1:35:44

and should have had them on.

1:35:47

And that's actually a huge issue

1:35:48

with the military system,

1:35:52

is that a huge part of having PTSD

1:35:53

is what's a dual diagnosis

1:35:55

and that you have some kind of chemical dependency

1:35:57

whether it be alcohol or drugs.

1:35:59

PTSD and substance abuse go hand in hand

1:36:02

and unfortunately in the military

1:36:05

if you have a substance abuse problem, you are discharged

1:36:07

on a bad conduct discharge, and you lose all your benefits.

1:36:10

And it's like, but they're doing this because

1:36:13

and so there's, I mean, there's thousands,

1:36:16

thousands of soldiers who are not getting benefits

1:36:19

because, you know, it was either I get high

1:36:23

or I kill myself tonight

1:36:26

I'm gonna get high.

1:36:28

And then they got pissed the next day and

1:36:29

you know, bad conduct discharge people with bronze stars

1:36:33

with valor devices, getting dishonorable discharges.

1:36:36

And I think that that is a real

1:36:40

that is definitely

1:36:43

needs to be stopped.

1:36:45

Like they used to, when I first went in the military

1:36:47

they had treatment programs and you could

1:36:49

you could piss hot and they would

1:36:51

you could go through treatment.

1:36:53

Now if you piss hot, you're out.

1:36:55

You're out and that's it.

1:36:58

There's no questions about it.

1:37:00

Unless you were special operations

1:37:04

and they can't sweep it under the rug

1:37:06

if you're important enough.

1:37:07

Interviewer

Well, I might,

1:37:12

I wanna go back to that just near the end

1:37:13

and I don't wanna take much more time, Damien

1:37:15

but just a couple of things you said last time

1:37:17

about the DOD

1:37:21

when you said they called

1:37:24

did they call with specific instructions?

1:37:25

-

I never...

1:37:28

It was the only time that they would call

1:37:29

it would always be transferred.

1:37:32

The call was always taken by one of the officers that was

1:37:34

in the office.

1:37:37

There were some DOD civilians that worked in our office

1:37:40

and that's normally who the calls were for.

1:37:46

Sometimes they would wanna talk to the officer in charge

1:37:49

on the military side and it would just be, you know

1:37:52

it was a big green field telephone

1:37:55

and so it would ring.

1:37:59

(rumbles)

1:38:00

Pick it up.

1:38:02

Office, secretary of defense.

1:38:04

I don't know, please put officer in charge on the line.

1:38:05

Yes, Ma'am hold on.

1:38:09

But now I wasn't privy to any of the details

1:38:12

of those talks.

1:38:14

Interviewer

But they would instruct

1:38:15

on what particular kinds of--

1:38:17

-

They would ask questions on specific prisoners

1:38:20

I do know that.

1:38:23

Interviewer

On--

1:38:24

-

On which ones I don't know

and what they wanted to know

1:38:25

I don't really know, but

1:38:27

they would call down and ask about specific prisoners.

1:38:29

Interviewer

And then you would get a question saying,

1:38:32

ask this question.

1:38:34

-

Yes.

1:38:35

-

For a prisoner.

But they wouldn't say use dogs on this prisoner.

1:38:37

-

No, the dogs were always used

1:38:40

I mean, from the time we arrived there

1:38:43

the dogs were used and I really--

1:38:45

Interviewer

Were they really were they--

1:38:48

-

The nudity was used the force you know,

1:38:49

everything was explained to us

1:38:53

that everything is a privilege to these people

1:38:54

and you need to make them understand that everything

1:38:56

including their clothing is a privilege.

1:38:58

Interviewer

Wait, so that didn't come daily

1:39:01

from the DOD,

1:39:02

that was pretty much in place.

1:39:03

-

That was already,

1:39:04

yeah, that was already in place

1:39:05

when we got there.

1:39:06

That was nothing that we started.

1:39:07

Interviewer

One of the people we interviewed

1:39:12

who was hung by his wrist in Bagram

1:39:14

said that before he was hung by his wrist

1:39:17

I told you last time it was five days.

1:39:20

he said he had electric shocks put to him.

1:39:21

Did you ever see that?

1:39:25

-

No, I don't know that I necessarily believe that.

1:39:26

It's possible,

1:39:32

I will say that it is possible

1:39:34

that they made him think that this was happening.

1:39:36

But if he says he was actually shocked

1:39:38

if he was a military prisoner and not a civilian prisoner

1:39:44

I do not see that as being feasible at all,

1:39:47

that that actually happened.

1:39:50

Interviewer

You think they could have faked it?

1:39:52

You mean like it---

1:39:53

-

Yeah, I think if anything

1:39:55

it could have been something like that.

1:39:57

Or I would even question as to if it actually happened.

1:40:00

'Cause I mean, there was things that I, you know

1:40:04

I've read statements from Omar Khadr and Moazzam Begg

1:40:06

and I guess it gets, I'm sorry, I keep touching my face.

1:40:10

I know it actually gets into,

1:40:13

your personal life experience through the situation.

1:40:18

But there was things that they said

1:40:21

in their statements that I just did not think were

1:40:22

I thought that they were just clearly false and fabricated.

1:40:25

And you know, as an example, Omar Khadr

1:40:29

in his deposition said that they forced him

1:40:32

to move heavy water boxes around.

1:40:36

And I specifically remember seeing him or helping

1:40:39

with the water and what it was is they would get prisoners

1:40:42

the english speaking ones

1:40:45

out of the pins to help them break down the hall,

1:40:47

the kosher meals that we were giving them.

1:40:51

And they would take the raisins out

1:40:53

so that the prisoners that couldn't move

1:40:56

didn't make wine

1:40:58

the Islamofascism prisoners weren't making wine.

1:40:59

They couldn't give them raisins

1:41:03

'cause they had to strip all the raisins out

1:41:05

and like break down the bottles from the boxes

1:41:07

and make little meal packs.

1:41:10

And it was something that the prisoners

1:41:11

would volunteer to do

1:41:13

because they got to eat more food

1:41:15

they got to drink extra water and they got to talk.

1:41:17

That was just huge.

1:41:20

Just being able to talk and joke

1:41:21

and they could talk and joke to each other.

1:41:23

So I remember that being a privilege

1:41:28

and it was something that both

1:41:30

of them actually said was just horrendous.

1:41:31

And in my mind like

1:41:34

I understand that there's a difference

1:41:36

in life experience

1:41:38

and perspective through this situation, but no,

1:41:39

they were shucking and jiving while they were doing it.

1:41:42

They weren't sitting there in misery and agony, they were,

1:41:46

if I was them I'd have been happy as shit

1:41:49

to get out of that pen.

1:41:51

And well, yeah,

1:41:52

let me go fucking pull raisins out of meals

1:41:54

that sounds great, let me do something.

1:41:56

(laughs)

1:41:59

'Cause they ain't gonna do it they was sitting down

1:41:59

for 23 hours a day, not moving, not talking.

1:42:01

And you would do anything to get out of that monotony.

1:42:05

Interviewer

And did you get,

1:42:10

did you hear of or get to see a training?

1:42:12

You know--

1:42:16

-

No, no.

Some of the warrant officers in my unit, as a matter of fact

1:42:18

a lot of the warrant officers in my unit

1:42:21

were former instructors at the Sierra school,

1:42:22

which is there at Fort Bragg,

1:42:26

can't recall in that area.

1:42:29

But the unit I was with was heavily intertwined

1:42:31

with the US army special operations.

1:42:35

So we did

1:42:39

see QB training

1:42:43

but we didn't go to a mount site and do it.

1:42:44

We went to the Rockefeller's old vacation houses out there

1:42:47

and did them in their houses.

1:42:50

And, you know, there was...

1:42:52

Because we had all these

1:42:54

all these special operations warrant officers

1:42:57

they gave us the training.

1:43:01

They were like, okay,

1:43:02

here's what we're gonna do today.

1:43:04

We're gonna go out to the Rockefeller's resort

1:43:06

and kick their doors in and clear their rooms.

1:43:09

And that's what we would do for three days

1:43:12

just drive out there and go play soldier.

1:43:14

But as far as Sierra training, I mean,

1:43:18

I received instruction from Sierra instructors

1:43:21

without going through Sierra school.

1:43:24

How's that?

1:43:25

(laughs)

1:43:26

Interviewer

Did you ever hear a frequent flyer

1:43:27

when you were there

1:43:29

that program,

1:43:30

something called frequent flyer?

1:43:32

-

No.

1:43:34

No.

1:43:35

Interviewer

I can explain to you.

1:43:37

-

Please, please do.

1:43:38

Interviewer

It's where they move detainees

1:43:39

every two to three hours from cell to cell,

1:43:42

just to keep them sleep deprived.

1:43:44

-

It sounds very believable.

1:43:47

That makes sense

1:43:50

sounds like something that would happen.

1:43:51

Interviewer

But you never saw that.

1:43:53

-

I'm sure I probably did witness it

1:43:55

and just didn't realize what I was looking at.

1:43:56

But I mean, that sounds, that sounds

1:43:59

like a pretty good way to keep a prisoner awake

1:44:01

move them or make them move.

1:44:03

Interviewer

Right.

1:44:05

And you know of a detainee who was about,

1:44:07

who was in a crucifixion?

1:44:08

-

Yes.

1:44:11

Interviewer

From what had happened to him?

1:44:12

Every five to six months

1:44:14

you said he was held in there.

1:44:15

-

I don't.

1:44:16

I really don't know that I can talk about that.

1:44:21

Interviewer

Okay.

1:44:23

-

How, I mean, I don't know

1:44:24

are you familiar with who Omar al-Faruq is?

1:44:27

They used him in a prisoner exchange

1:44:31

to get back an American PAW that they didn't have.

1:44:34

(laughs)

1:44:38

And they exchanged him

1:44:39

and then he popped up

1:44:41

in Basra, Iraq and British forces

1:44:43

ended up killing him there

1:44:45

but that's who it was.

1:44:47

But yeah, he was given a, they gave him the number

1:44:49

of a prisoner who had died

1:44:53

so that if the red cross ever came in

1:44:55

and happened to see his number on the board,

1:44:57

they'd be like, oh, that's just the dead prisoner,

1:44:59

they haven't erased that yet.

1:45:01

But yeah.

1:45:04

And I'm sorry, what was your question about?

1:45:06

Interviewer

Well, what happened to him?

1:45:09

-

The British killed him in Basra, Iraq I think in 2005.

1:45:11

'Cause I was really worried

1:45:15

I was like, oh man, this guy doesn't like me at all

1:45:17

and we knew he was in Iraq

1:45:20

and I was like,

1:45:21

"Holy shit, I really better hope I never get captured."

1:45:22

(laughs)

1:45:26

He does not have pleasant memories of my face.

1:45:28

(laughs)

1:45:31

Interviewer

And

1:45:33

did you ever practice interrogation

1:45:38

before you went to Afghanistan?

1:45:42

Just for two weeks I think

1:45:43

'cause like I said I just want to clarify.

1:45:44

-

Yeah we went to...

1:45:46

Oh, men.

1:45:48

Old England Air Force Base in Louisiana

1:45:49

it's the old air national guard station.

1:45:53

That's where they deployed

1:45:57

most US troops out of

1:45:58

was this old shut down guard air station in Louisiana.

1:46:00

Who's gonna look for troop movements

1:46:04

in the swamps of Louisiana.

1:46:07

And that I mean, it was a pretty good idea

1:46:09

and we went down there

1:46:10

we stayed there for like two weeks doing it.

1:46:11

And then, you know, being at my unit

1:46:12

before I got assigned to being an interrogator.

1:46:15

I don't talk about my warrant officers a lot,

1:46:19

but in the intelligence community

1:46:21

in military intelligence warrant officers

1:46:23

are the big shots because the officers

1:46:25

in the army don't do their jobs.

1:46:28

The officers are in charge

1:46:31

of like pencils and humvees and buildings and rifles

1:46:31

and that's what the officer does is account for that stuff.

1:46:34

The warrant officers, the ones that actually do the job

1:46:38

the clandestine job.

1:46:40

And the ones that I had when I was there

1:46:42

are literally the ones that wrote

1:46:45

post-Soviet intelligence collection,

1:46:47

how to do it.

1:46:49

They're the ones that wrote the books on how to do it.

1:46:50

So I really learned from the best we had available

1:46:52

and they did go through some interrogation,

1:46:55

basically more approaches

1:46:57

it was not necessarily interrogation

1:46:59

but approach training,

1:47:01

like, hey, here's

1:47:03

here will be a good way to do this.

1:47:04

You're not necessarily gonna go in screaming and kick

1:47:05

and you wanna build it up to that

1:47:09

and you might wanna use a good cop, bad cop

1:47:10

because that would probably go over better

1:47:13

with this type of person.

1:47:14

And so, yeah, you know,

1:47:16

I got to learn from the Stephen Hawkings of interrogation,

1:47:19

how to do it

1:47:22

and so, you know, that was good.

1:47:24

Interviewer

So do you feel that

1:47:26

the interrogations you did in Afghanistan

1:47:28

somehow reflected to what training you got?

1:47:30

-

Not at all, not at all.

1:47:33

What we did in Afghanistan was nowhere near

1:47:36

what textbook interrogation

1:47:40

anything I had been trained was.

1:47:41

And it was apparent from the first day we were there

1:47:44

that this is not how you've been trained.

1:47:46

Interviewer

Why?

1:47:51

-

I think as hard as it may be to sound like that

1:47:54

I really don't think anybody just, nobody questioned it.

1:47:57

Like when we first got there, it was like,

1:48:00

okay this is how shit's done

1:48:01

and let's just do it.

1:48:03

I mean, you look at the prison experiments and I mean,

1:48:06

people just go along with shit.

1:48:09

They really do like, okay, I can do this.

1:48:10

Interviewer

So basically there was no quality control

1:48:14

you did whatever--

1:48:16

-

Whatever we saw the people doing

1:48:19

before us is exactly what we kept doing

1:48:20

and that's what we took to Iraq with us

1:48:22

and it's what we were picked in Iraq to use that stuff.

1:48:24

And again, back to the hypocrisy, you picked us

1:48:28

'cause you said, you're the best

1:48:31

we want you to go to do this

1:48:32

and use these tools that you use

1:48:34

and then we're gonna charge you for it.

1:48:37

(laughs)

1:48:39

And tell you, oh, they were operating outside of procedure.

1:48:40

You mean to tell me that

1:48:43

for two years I conducted interrogations

1:48:44

of high level detainees

1:48:47

and nobody knew I was doing what I was doing

1:48:48

and that's bullshit I wrote my own interrogator notes

1:48:50

I know what I signed up in those reports.

1:48:53

I told him that,

1:48:55

yeah, I kept him on his knees

1:48:56

for two hours and read a book and spit on him.

1:48:58

(chuckles)

1:49:00

You know?

1:49:01

I would write this in the report send it up

1:49:03

so they can't say they didn't know

1:49:04

that this was going on

1:49:05

and we were there from very early stages.

1:49:06

And I did that because I wanted there to be a record

1:49:08

no you knew, you knew

1:49:10

all that disappeared when my trial happened,

1:49:12

the whole hard drive went missing,

1:49:14

classified hard drive goes missing.

1:49:16

Pops back up after my trial.

1:49:19

Oh, here it is.

1:49:21

(laughs)

1:49:22

Interviewer

I was gonna ask you that

1:49:23

you mean what you just told me,

1:49:24

they had, they didn't--

1:49:26

-

They had records of.

1:49:27

Interviewer

But they didn't introduce as them

1:49:28

as evidence?

1:49:29

-

They couldn't it was missing.

1:49:30

The whole hard drive was missing.

1:49:31

Interviewer

Why?

1:49:33

-

Just like all of my hard copies of my awards were missing

1:49:34

and they all showed back up after my trial.

1:49:37

Oh, here's this stuff.

1:49:39

Interviewer

Why would they want to "miss"

1:49:42

that report from you?

1:49:45

Wouldn't that be something they could use against you?

1:49:46

-

No, because it ends there plausible deniability.

1:49:50

You can't be a scapegoat that has

1:49:53

hard evidence that says,

1:49:55

hey, no, you knew about this.

1:49:57

You knew this was going on from day one.

1:49:58

You know,

1:50:01

the commanding general of CID

1:50:03

came from Fort Belvoir, Virginia

1:50:05

and flew out to Afghanistan, handed out coins

1:50:07

like you guys are doing a great job out here

1:50:09

and he saw everything,

1:50:11

everything I was charged with, he saw it that day.

1:50:12

Like you guys do a great job.

1:50:16

General Miller comes over

1:50:17

to Abu Ghraib from Iraq

1:50:18

from Guantanamo.

1:50:20

"You guys aren't being hard enough on these prisoners."

1:50:21

That was really what he said.

1:50:24

And its, oh, fuck

1:50:26

okay way up it up general all right,

1:50:28

you know, you got the stars

1:50:30

I don't make decisions like that.

1:50:30

And then, hey, when it comes time

1:50:33

when it comes time, I got court-martialed

1:50:35

he got promoted.

1:50:37

So you tell me, like, what did what happened?

1:50:38

I mean, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it

1:50:41

just look at the facts of what happened

1:50:44

and it should just be natural to say

1:50:46

this is the shit that went down.

1:50:49

Interviewer

And they all knew.

1:50:52

-

They all knew.

1:50:53

They all knew everybody

1:50:54

Dan McNeil knew, general Miller knew

1:50:56

the commanding general of CID knew,

1:50:59

Donald Rumsfeld knew.

1:51:01

George Bush says I never made a decision

1:51:03

governing detainee treatment.

1:51:06

Yes you did.

1:51:07

When you said that they were detainees

1:51:08

and they weren't...

1:51:11

That we should call them persons under control

1:51:12

and that they were not called

1:51:15

they were not protected under Geneva

1:51:16

because what's in a name is what you categorize a man in

1:51:18

under Geneva and there is no detainee

1:51:21

there is no person under custody,

1:51:24

it doesn't exist.

1:51:27

Does not exist.

1:51:29

You're either a protected person or you're not.

1:51:29

And these guys were in limbo and they were

1:51:31

in limbo because you chose to call them a name in limbo

1:51:33

Interviewer

Just for the record for people watching,

1:51:38

what is the CID?

1:51:40

-

So the army breaks,

1:51:42

I'm gonna say this for your viewers

1:51:45

the army breaks up

1:51:46

what is in CIS into two groups.

1:51:49

Interviewer

What's CIS?

1:51:51

-

In CIS, the Naval criminal investigation service

1:51:52

what they have is one job,

1:51:57

the army has, is two.

1:51:58

They have the intelligence collection

1:52:00

that's handled by people that was handled by people like me.

1:52:02

And then you have the criminal investigation

1:52:05

division is what CID stands for.

1:52:07

And they're army criminal investigators.

1:52:09

They're detectives that were cooks

1:52:11

before they were detectives with absolute

1:52:14

they've got about three months

1:52:16

of training and now they're simple wits.

1:52:17

Interviewer

And they would come in and

1:52:21

at what point would they come in?

1:52:24

-

They actually, you know

1:52:27

here's the thing about CID guys.

1:52:28

We again, had CID working in the prison with us.

1:52:29

They were there during the in processing and as a screener

1:52:33

I worked side by side with them.

1:52:36

And do you know, these bastards actually showed me.

1:52:37

They're like, yeah, when you take their fingerprints

1:52:41

you can do it like this

1:52:43

and it really hurts the out of them.

1:52:44

And you know, right in front of JAG officers

1:52:45

right in front of doctors.

1:52:49

Hey, it's okay.

1:52:52

It was okay.

1:52:53

And then they will say it wasn't okay.

1:52:56

Interviewer

Did you realize at that point

1:52:59

that the training you've got in Louisiana

1:53:01

was 180 degrees different

1:53:03

from what behavior you was doing

1:53:05

seeing in Afghanistan, Bagram?

1:53:08

-

Yeah, but it didn't dawn on me at the time

1:53:12

like it really,

1:53:14

I know it sounds odd to say that, you know

1:53:15

this never struck me,

1:53:18

but when I was there it was really just,

1:53:19

I really just went with the flow.

1:53:21

I wish I could say that I was a stronger mind

1:53:23

and was like,

1:53:25

oh no, this isn't right.

1:53:26

But I didn't, I just went along with it.

1:53:27

And Why

1:53:30

and I ask myself that all

1:53:31

I don't really know why.

1:53:32

I've tried to figure out, well, why did I do this?

1:53:33

Well, that's my PTSD is why did I do this?

1:53:36

And I mean, hell I don't know,

1:53:39

I don't know

1:53:41

and I beat myself up over it and you know

1:53:42

maybe one day I'll figure it out.

1:53:44

But I guess it comes down to we're all just sheep.

1:53:47

You know, we really are.

1:53:50

I thought you know,

1:53:51

I used to think I was pretty strong guy

1:53:52

but now if I can sheep,

1:53:53

just like everybody else

1:53:55

you just get told to do something

1:53:55

and if enough of you are doing it, you'll be like,

1:53:57

okay, it must be the right thing to do.

1:53:59

You know?

1:54:02

Interviewer

Who's Dan McNeil?

1:54:05

-

He was the commanding general

1:54:10

of CJTF-180 when I was there.

1:54:11

Which is the whole Afghan theater of operations.

1:54:15

He was the head general and his office

1:54:18

was maybe a quarter mile from mine.

1:54:21

I sat in on what are called battle update briefings

1:54:25

where he was present and he heard what was going on there.

1:54:28

And then I've heard him with statements to Carlotta Gall

1:54:32

who was a New York times reporter.

1:54:35

I've heard audio of him denying any knowledge,

1:54:36

not like we have people trust up on cages.

1:54:39

Yes you did and you knew you did.

1:54:42

How dare you see, because even

1:54:44

when people wanna tell the truth

1:54:45

so even when they lie, they tell the parts of the truth

1:54:47

in their lie.

1:54:49

And so I guess that was it.

1:54:50

We had people trust up on cages.

1:54:52

(laughs)

1:54:54

Interviewer

And all that was missing in your trial?

1:54:57

-

Couldn't admit it.

1:54:59

We could not put into evidence that

1:55:00

because the reason I was court-martialed in Fort Bliss,

1:55:04

Texas was because Dan McNeil

1:55:07

after being the commander of CJTF-180

1:55:09

came back and was the commander of XVIII Airborne Corps

1:55:12

and subsequently Fort Bragg.

1:55:14

So he could not be my court-martial authority

1:55:17

'cause he had already found me innocent.

1:55:20

And no, I wasn't allowed to introduce that findings

1:55:23

I wasn't allowed to introduce that report.

1:55:26

We weren't allowed to introduce anything.

1:55:28

It was definitely

1:55:29

the judge was definitely not defense friendly.

1:55:31

And just about every motion we made got knocked down.

1:55:34

Interviewer

Well, do you think the jury

1:55:38

picked that up?

1:55:39

-

I definitely think they did.

1:55:40

I definitely think they did.

1:55:42

And again, I mean, that was the good thing

1:55:46

was that like, I regained my faith in my fellow soldier

1:55:48

when that happened.

1:55:51

It was like, okay, you guys

1:55:52

you guys do understand what was going on

1:55:54

you're not Mr. JAG Judge

1:55:58

who's never left Texas in 20 years.

1:55:59

You guys were just there.

1:56:02

I know, I see your patches.

1:56:03

I know you were there.

1:56:05

You see my patches

1:56:05

we were in the same places as well

1:56:07

hey, Viacom, what would you have done?

1:56:08

And I think that that's really

1:56:10

how they did look at it as well.

1:56:11

Yeah, this shit was going on

1:56:13

I know it was going on.

1:56:14

Interviewer

You think they were arbitrary,

1:56:16

arbitrarily selected?

1:56:17

Or do you think they were deliberately selected

1:56:18

because of who you were?

1:56:21

-

Oh, no they get,

1:56:22

well, Fort bliss is a really small post.

1:56:23

It's an air defense artillery school

1:56:27

and they must have some kind of special operations

1:56:30

post there, what it is, I don't know.

1:56:34

But there was a lot of what we call long tabs

1:56:36

which are special forces, army special forces soldiers.

1:56:38

There was I think three long tabs on my panel.

1:56:41

So for them to be there, there's definitely some kind

1:56:45

of special operations activity there.

1:56:47

But it's such a small post that they didn't have

1:56:51

a great number of Sergeant majors

1:56:54

and there was only so many colonels

1:56:56

and Sergeant majors that they had.

1:56:57

And so pretty much every brigade there was

1:56:59

without a commander for the three days my trial was going

1:57:01

on because they took everyone that they had.

1:57:04

Interviewer

When you were in Afghanistan

1:57:08

did they videotape any of the interrogations?

1:57:09

-

No, no, no, cameras were strictly forbidden

1:57:11

in the prison.

1:57:15

And I mean, well, I mean,

1:57:18

they were forbidden at Abu Ghraib too.

1:57:19

(laughs)

1:57:21

But yeah, no there was no videotaping, no photographs,

1:57:22

nothing like that no.

1:57:27

At Abu Ghraib eventually

1:57:29

they did start videotaping interrogations.

1:57:30

But that was many, many moons afterwards.

1:57:35

Interviewer

So there really wasn't,

1:57:38

there really wasn't a whole lot of court evidence.

1:57:39

-

No, and as a matter of fact, the last thing,

1:57:44

our last day in the prison we had an open

1:57:47

what was called a open classified storage area,

1:57:49

which meant there was just MRE boxes

1:57:51

with file folders that were full of classified information

1:57:54

just sitting around all over our office.

1:57:57

And it was really, you wanna talk, you know

1:58:00

you get into bending the rules.

1:58:02

Well, that was definitely out of the norm.

1:58:03

I mean, I could have grabbed a box of classified

1:58:05

and just walked out

1:58:07

and nobody would have known.

1:58:08

But the last thing we did was we all had notebooks

1:58:13

and things like that.

1:58:16

And they told us that, you know, you don't have to,

1:58:18

but if you wanna burn these, we got a fire going.

1:58:21

And unless you wanna

1:58:23

(bangs)

1:58:25

Yes, Mr. Senator,

1:58:26

unless you want that to be you in a few years

1:58:28

we suggest you burn these books.

1:58:30

Interviewer

Who were the people who suggested that?

1:58:32

-

I'd rather, no, no

1:58:33

I'd rather not say for their sake--

1:58:34

Interviewer

Did everyone burned them?

1:58:36

-

Everybody I know burnt them.

1:58:36

Yeah, that was, you know,

1:58:38

we used to joke around all the time,

1:58:41

yeah, we're gonna be in front of

1:58:42

the fucking Senate testifying about this shit and

1:58:43

like it's amazing.

1:58:48

It's amazing how much we saw

1:58:49

and then just charged it to do it anyway.

1:58:53

(murmurs)

1:58:55

Yeah, we know this is a policy

1:58:56

and even then I knew that these things were possibilities

1:58:57

I still did it.

1:58:59

Even though I didn't stop myself

1:59:01

I don't think getting back to why

1:59:03

I can't figure it out.

1:59:05

It's not that I was unaware

1:59:06

of our country's history and

1:59:09

it wasn't that I was unaware

1:59:12

of what I was doing,

1:59:14

I knew that I didn't feel okay about it.

1:59:15

I still did it

1:59:19

Interviewer

When you left did nother group

1:59:21

of interrogators replace you guys?

1:59:23

-

Yes.

1:59:25

the Bravo company,

1:59:27

I was with Alpha company 519th

1:59:28

and they were Bravo company 519th

1:59:30

came and replaced us.

1:59:32

Interviewer

Well, did you give them any training or?

1:59:33

-

Same stuff we were doing.

1:59:35

They sat down with us.

1:59:36

I was actually...

1:59:38

The approach that I used of that like

1:59:41

I was really good at was the,

1:59:44

this fear of ass rape in US jail, like, you know

1:59:47

and they actually had me train the new people

1:59:53

on how to really, I was like, yeah

1:59:56

stroke their heads like this

1:59:58

and you know, I was like,

2:00:00

and I like to put my crotch just right here

2:00:01

next to their face

2:00:03

and pet their heads when I'm telling them the story.

2:00:04

They had me teach all this

2:00:07

and then again,

2:00:08

they fucking charged me with it three years later.

2:00:09

And they had me teach it.

2:00:12

Interviewer

They had you teach it?

2:00:13

They had me teach that

2:00:14

because I did such a great job at it.

2:00:17

Like, you know.

2:00:19

Interviewer

And did you come up

2:00:21

with that idea or is it--

2:00:22

-

You know, I wish I could say I didn't, but I did.

2:00:24

I unfortunately did come up with that and

2:00:27

I used it a lot and, you know, I think about it

2:00:30

and I'm like, oh, fuck

2:00:33

I'd probably be like, blah, blah blah

2:00:34

get your dick out of my face.

2:00:37

(laughs)

2:00:38

Interviewer

Khadr claimed that

2:00:42

he was threatened with rape is that--

2:00:43

-

He probably was.

2:00:45

I actually,

2:00:47

I think even one of his interrogators admitted

2:00:48

that he threatened him with rape.

2:00:51

But I mean, it was perfectly okay.

2:00:52

We were told, no, this is a tool

2:00:54

go use it, you can do this.

2:00:56

So, you know,

2:01:02

I don't know.

2:01:04

That's a...

2:01:06

Yeah, I'm not proud of it, again, but I did it.

2:01:11

I did do it.

2:01:13

Interviewer

Did that one of the charges?

2:01:16

-

They kind of made it into a charge.

2:01:19

Like I think Ahmed al-Darbi said

2:01:21

that I pressed my penis against his face

2:01:22

but I don't know if it was either him exaggerating it

2:01:24

or a mix up in the interpretation that it came out

2:01:28

like I pressed my bare penis against his face.

2:01:31

And like I would wear, I bought

2:01:33

I had a pair of $300 hatch gloves, police hatch gloves

2:01:35

so that I wouldn't get their sweat on me

2:01:39

because I did manhandle the prisoners a lot.

2:01:41

You move them into position, pick them up off the floor

2:01:43

You son of a bitch (groans).

2:01:46

And I didn't even wanna get their sweat on me

2:01:48

because I mean, they only bathe once a week

2:01:51

and they did have an odor too

2:01:52

and you know, hey, anybody would,

2:01:55

if you were in that situation

2:01:56

not that they were stinky people,

2:01:58

they were stinking people

2:01:59

'cause we made them stinky people.

2:02:00

And so I didn't wanna...

2:02:02

And so then the thought of pressing my penis

2:02:04

against his face, I was like, that is just absurd.

2:02:06

And I don't know

2:02:10

because I know how working through an interpreter goes.

2:02:11

And so I don't know

2:02:14

if it was mixed up in the interpretation.

2:02:16

'Cause I wasn't nice to Ahmed al-Darbi

2:02:18

I used his shirt as an ashtray,

2:02:20

I plucked tears out of his chest, poked him in the chest

2:02:21

poured water all over him, you know, made him...

2:02:25

But what finally did him in

2:02:28

was that he was a Saudi and he didn't,

2:02:30

he never worked a day in his life

2:02:32

and I made him start picking up trash.

2:02:35

And then somebody spilled one

2:02:37

of their shit barrels downstairs.

2:02:39

And I could smell it in the interrogation room

2:02:41

like the place already smelled bad

2:02:44

but then it was just like diesel in prisoner poop

2:02:46

just all over the floor and the halogen lamps cooking it

2:02:49

and I was like,

2:02:53

oh, I mean, I had stopped my interrogation.

2:02:54

I came out and asked the guards,

2:02:56

"What the fuck is that smell?"

2:02:57

"Oh, I'm sorry, sir

2:02:59

"one of the prisoners spilled the shit bucket

2:03:01

"we got him clean it up."

2:03:02

I said, "No, tell him to stop

2:03:03

"I've got someone to come clean that for them."

2:03:05

And I sent him down there

2:03:08

and he had latex gloves and two pieces of cardboard

2:03:09

and he had to pick up all this and put it back.

2:03:12

And that's when he finally halfway through

2:03:14

he was like, "Enough I'm done, let's talk

2:03:15

"not to you, I'll talk to somebody else, but I'm done."

2:03:18

And that's what finally did him in, was making him work.

2:03:22

None of the poking them in the chest and screaming

2:03:24

at him and breaking that didn't work,

2:03:27

making him work.

2:03:29

You wanna break a Saudi, make them work.

2:03:32

(both laugh)

2:03:35

Interviewer

Who, you know,

2:03:38

you said this in the last interview

2:03:40

who called you the King of torture then?

2:03:41

-

You know that's Jen Higginbotham said that

2:03:44

and she's somebody that

2:03:48

and she testified against me.

2:03:51

Interviewer

Who is she?

2:03:54

-

Here's how objective I can be about that.

2:03:54

I find her integrity to be above reproach.

2:03:57

I think that that at the time Sergeant Higginbotham

2:04:01

if she's, even though I never remember Steve calling me

2:04:05

the King of torture, if she says she heard it,

2:04:08

I say take that as gospel.

2:04:11

He probably did say it because she's not,

2:04:13

she's a very honest person.

2:04:15

And even as somebody who gave testimony against me

2:04:18

I don't have any animosity towards her at all.

2:04:21

I think she's a very good person.

2:04:24

She was a good intelligence collector.

2:04:25

And if she says, he said it, then he said it.

2:04:27

Interviewer

Who is he?

2:04:29

-

It's Steve Loring, but I don't,

2:04:30

he was our non-commissioned officer in charge,

2:04:32

but I don't remember him ever referring to me like that.

2:04:36

He used to call me the monster a lot, but that was

2:04:40

that was really a joking thing.

2:04:43

It wasn't serious

2:04:46

and so I never,

2:04:47

I really regret getting that title.

2:04:50

Interviewer

And so when you heard her say it

2:04:51

that was the first time you kind of heard it?

2:04:52

-

I read it.

2:04:54

Interviewer

Oh, you read it?

2:04:54

-

Yeah, I read it in the New York times

2:04:55

and I was like, huh?

2:04:58

And then I heard her say it at my trial.

2:05:00

And you know, even then,

2:05:04

even though I didn't remember it,

2:05:07

it was one of those things

2:05:09

I really find her integrity to be above her approach.

2:05:10

So I really, I believe that she

2:05:12

either thought that he called me that

2:05:15

or that more likely than not, he really did call me that.

2:05:17

Interviewer

And he never, just to confirm.

2:05:19

-

No, he never testified

2:05:22

he never had charges

2:05:23

brought against him.

2:05:25

They tried, they tried to go after him.

2:05:27

The department of justice called a man before a grand jury.

2:05:32

(sighs)

2:05:36

Probably in 2008

2:05:37

I went and testified before a federal grand jury

2:05:40

and they were going after Steve Loring and Carolyn Wood.

2:05:42

They named, they had him as unnamed in the indictment

2:05:46

but that's, it became very clear once the questioning began

2:05:49

that that's who they were going after.

2:05:51

And they never, I don't think they ever,

2:05:54

I don't think the grand jury

2:05:57

wanted to charge him

2:06:00

so I guess this is a good thing.

2:06:01

But if, again,

2:06:03

if he did say it's not something that he would have said

2:06:05

to me on a regular basis

2:06:07

it would have been something that he may have said once

2:06:08

and it stuck out in her head

2:06:10

but then he called me the monster or Damien.

2:06:12

I mean, we're really on a

2:06:14

even though it was a military we're you know,

2:06:16

I was wearing t-shirt jeans a pakol on my head

2:06:19

and I had a beard and you know,

2:06:23

I wasn't, we called each other by our first names

2:06:26

I called captain Wood, Carolyn,

2:06:29

I called you know, and that's just how it was

2:06:31

'cause you don't...

2:06:32

The enemy doesn't need to understand our rank structure.

2:06:34

That's okay.

2:06:37

That's knowledge that they don't need to have.

2:06:38

So we use first names.

2:06:40

Interviewer

Who is Jen Higginbotham?

2:06:43

-

She was one of my fellow soldiers and

2:06:47

she was also a counterintelligence agent

2:06:50

who was working as an interrogator ever there.

2:06:53

And they always used her for like the

2:06:56

whenever they needed a woman to go

2:06:59

out into the field and do field interrogation,

2:07:01

she was always the one to go.

2:07:03

Really good soldier,

2:07:06

really good intelligence collector.

2:07:06

Interviewer

And they never went after her?

2:07:09

-

No, no, that, I mean,

2:07:10

I really, again,

2:07:13

this is somebody who testified against me.

2:07:15

I don't have a bad thing to say about her.

2:07:17

Like she's

2:07:19

she was very professional.

2:07:21

She was an excellent intelligence collector

2:07:22

just took her job very seriously.

2:07:24

And she didn't play around.

2:07:27

No, she was really, really a good soldier.

2:07:29

Interviewer

Did you do interrogations with her

2:07:32

that she even observed you?

2:07:34

-

Yes, yes we did.

2:07:35

And apparently there was one where she said I was sitting

2:07:36

on a guy's chest and I was like, yes

2:07:39

so you know,

2:07:41

sounds like something I do

2:07:42

not, you know, I don't remember doing it,

2:07:44

but it's believable that I would do that, you know,

2:07:46

and like when,

2:07:49

like with Ahmed al-Darbi when he said that I grabbed

2:07:52

my genitals and said, "This is your God."

2:07:56

I was like, you know, maybe it's getting mixed up

2:07:58

in interpretation, but I can see myself going

2:08:02

I got your God right here or something like that

2:08:04

when he would cry out far out loud.

2:08:06

I probably you know,

2:08:08

that sounds like something I would do.

2:08:09

But yeah, I mean, so everything that she said

2:08:14

although I don't recall it in my account of history

2:08:16

is a little different than hers.

2:08:19

I, by no means, think she lied.

2:08:20

I think that she told the truth that she saw the truth.

2:08:22

Interviewer

When people were hung by the wrist

2:08:26

were they shackled on their feet too,

2:08:28

at the same time, or?

2:08:31

-

I don't recall,

2:08:33

but they normally did have two sets

2:08:36

they would put short cuffs, the wrist cuffs,

2:08:38

and then they would also put leg irons

2:08:42

on the short cuffs

2:08:44

and then leg irons are normally what they were suspended

2:08:45

by not the short cuffs.

2:08:48

And it was so that their hands would not just

2:08:49

be suspended, but be suspended and together.

2:08:52

Interviewer

They're hanging by their wrists.

2:08:59

-

Yeah, yeah.

2:09:00

They have two sets of handcuffs you have

2:09:01

a short set, which allows your wrist

2:09:03

makes your wrist about this close.

2:09:05

Interviewer

Okay.

2:09:08

-

Okay?

And then they had a long set of ankle shackles.

2:09:09

So that chain would droop in between

2:09:13

and that chain is what they would use to suspend them

2:09:15

through the chicken wire.

2:09:18

They would put the leg shackle chain

2:09:20

but they still had shortcuts on.

2:09:23

So it's not like they could be like this.

2:09:24

They were like this, except for the one prisoner

2:09:27

in isolation, had a leg iron on each wrist

2:09:29

and just like that all day.

2:09:33

Interviewer

And their feet were off the ground

2:09:35

then not.

2:09:37

-

No, no.

2:09:38

Their feet were on the ground.

2:09:39

Interviewer

What did you get to testify

2:09:45

on the Khadr trial?

2:09:47

-

His lawyers

2:09:50

had heard that I was somebody that might be sympathetic

2:09:53

towards Omar Khadr

2:09:56

which I guess him in particular, I am like, you know, hey

2:09:58

just because he was a child that's it.

2:10:04

The fact that he spoke english really had nothing to do

2:10:06

with it because I came across a lot of children

2:10:08

when I was there

2:10:11

he wasn't the only child we had in that prison.

2:10:11

And I really, I couldn't be mean to the kids,

2:10:14

I couldn't do it

2:10:17

So, I mean, yeah, I had a soft spot for him

2:10:21

but when his lawyers came and asked me you know,

2:10:23

and I kept wondering, I was like

2:10:25

they're not gonna even the judge isn't gonna allow me

2:10:27

to say this their shit

2:10:29

'cause I had no personal experience of how he was treated

2:10:30

in his interrogations.

2:10:36

I never sat in on one of his interrogations

2:10:37

and wasn't one of my prisoners.

2:10:39

I was a close personal friend

2:10:41

with his primary interrogator.

2:10:44

And you know, he's somebody

2:10:46

that I call a close personal friend

2:10:48

and that's not many people.

2:10:49

I can't say if he was abused

2:10:53

I know he says he was,

2:10:55

I know that he was not treated well,

2:10:57

I know that he was not treated with human dignity

2:11:00

and not that's just knowledge that I have

2:11:02

from the general treatment

2:11:04

of the prisoners, not him in particular

2:11:06

they were not treated with human dignity.

2:11:08

And so they came and spoke with me

2:11:11

and they asked me if I'd be willing to testify.

2:11:14

And at the time seemed like a good idea

2:11:18

and then I went down to Guantanamo

2:11:21

and although I was elated

2:11:23

with the ceasing of the trials and the inauguration

2:11:25

everything that would also went on while I was down there

2:11:28

it really mentally screwed me up

2:11:30

to be back in that military environment,

2:11:32

that was the first time I'd ever been back

2:11:33

in that environment since I had gotten out.

2:11:35

And Guantanamo is a horrible place to go test it out

2:11:37

'cause you can't leave.

2:11:40

It's not like I go to Fort Bragg's commissary

2:11:42

and be like, "Okay, I'm having a bit of a freakout moment

2:11:45

"let me go."

2:11:47

No, no, but luckily Guantanamo

2:11:49

it was pretty desolate as I'm sure you noticed

2:11:51

and so there was plenty of beaches to slip away too

2:11:53

but yeah, it really messed me up.

2:11:57

So then when his second,

2:11:59

when it came time for them to retry him,

2:12:00

I told him I couldn't handle going

2:12:03

down to Guantanamo anymore.

2:12:05

I didn't wanna regress a moment in my development.

2:12:06

So I testified, polycommed

2:12:11

from some General's office in Arlington

2:12:14

and did a polycommed testify for that.

2:12:19

And they did that

2:12:23

the judge and the prosecutor did a very good job

2:12:24

of blocking most of what I had to say.

2:12:27

Interviewer

What does that mean?

2:12:31

-

And there was no,

2:12:33

did this ever happen to him

2:12:35

can you say for sure this happened to him?

2:12:36

Well, no, I can't.

2:12:38

You know,

2:12:40

and the best answer I could have given him was,

2:12:41

well, if he was my prisoner, I would have done it to him.

2:12:44

That was the best I could give.

2:12:48

And he still and I was pissed

2:12:50

'cause, you know, understand

2:12:53

taking the plea deal as we talked earlier

2:12:55

but I was pissed when he plead

2:12:57

I was like, "You little bastard."

2:13:00

I was like, "I've been fighting for you

2:13:01

"you got so many people fighting for you

2:13:03

"and you could have gotten off this."

2:13:04

'Cause I mean, you know, I haven't really even looked

2:13:07

into it if he actually did it or not.

2:13:09

But to me, that's beside the point.

2:13:10

The point is that he was 15 when he allegedly did it.

2:13:13

And no, no.

2:13:16

You know we got,

2:13:18

here in South Georgia

2:13:20

there's two kids just shot their baby

2:13:21

in the face last month.

2:13:22

They're not trying the 14 year old's an adult

2:13:24

He was 14 years old.

2:13:26

He's not responsible for his actions at that age,

2:13:28

especially, oh yeah, by the way, you were raised by

2:13:31

a fucking a close personal friend of Osama bin Laden

2:13:34

growing up and just like,

2:13:37

I can't even imagine the environment

2:13:38

he was growing up in.

2:13:40

Oh, he's lucky that he only ended up that fucked up.

2:13:42

I'm like, you know that he's not,

2:13:45

well, you know, he could be like Saeed bin Laden.

2:13:47

and be like Scotty evil you know?

2:13:49

Like he actually was pretty well adjusted

2:13:53

all things considered.

2:13:56

Interviewer

And the interrogator

2:13:59

who did interrogate him didn't wanna testify?

2:14:01

-

He did testify.

2:14:03

I don't think he went there

2:14:05

I think he also polycommed.

2:14:06

And we talked after the trial

2:14:08

'cause we didn't talk while the trial was going on

2:14:09

because that would have just been, you know,

2:14:12

he was a prosecution witness

2:14:15

I was defense witness

2:14:16

we really had conflicting testimony with each other.

2:14:17

So we chose not to communicate while the trial was going on.

2:14:20

You know, just for impropriety

2:14:26

we didn't, we figured,

2:14:27

I'm sure the government already looks at my email

2:14:29

I don't want him doing it anymore.

2:14:31

They already did it.

2:14:33

So, you know, for impropriety

2:14:34

we stay low and they were, you know,

2:14:36

we talked to you and after and he was like,

2:14:38

"I'm not mad at you, man

2:14:40

"like, I understand I wasn't trying

2:14:41

"to fuck you either, dude."

2:14:42

I was like, "Yeah, man, I know."

2:14:43

Interviewer

Are you friendly with him

2:14:46

or with any of the people you work with?

2:14:46

-

I stay in contact with three of my former interrogators

2:14:48

counterintelligence agent/interrogators

2:14:55

Interviewer

Were they there for you

2:14:58

during your trial too?

2:14:59

-

Yes, I had an amazing showing of support

2:15:00

from fellow soldiers and former soldiers that flew in

2:15:06

from all over the US to come testify on my behalf.

2:15:11

Interviewer

Really?

2:15:14

-

Yeah.

And I really consider myself very fortunate

2:15:15

to have people like that that were willing to do that.

2:15:19

Interviewer

And to what did they testify?

2:15:22

-

Basically, just that everything that we did was acceptable

2:15:25

that this is not the work

2:15:29

of this loose cannon road wolf,

2:15:32

Corsetti that no, this was institutionalized

2:15:36

and this is how shit went down,

2:15:39

this was policy, this was not his doing,

2:15:41

this was not a decision he made and

2:15:43

which, you know, it was decisions I made,

2:15:47

but they were definitely facilitated

2:15:49

through a system.

2:15:52

I mean, it really was systematic torture

2:15:53

it was not Lynndie England

2:15:57

doing weird shit with a goat's head and prisoners it was...

2:16:02

Did you ever see all those pictures?

2:16:06

Interviewer

Yeah.

2:16:07

-

Yeah.

It was, hey, this is how the system goes

2:16:11

and you know, does anybody show up

2:16:13

at the Ford plant and say, I think we should

2:16:16

put the fenders on before we paint it.

2:16:18

No, you just fucking do it the way

2:16:21

the assembly line's doing it

2:16:22

and you go along with it

2:16:24

and you stamp your fucking sheet metal and go home.

2:16:25

Well, my assembly line job was in a prison with, you know,

2:16:27

high-level prisoners and that was it.

2:16:32

Interviewer

Tony do you any question

2:16:36

that I haven't asked?

2:16:38

Tony

Yeah, I do have a couple of questions.

2:16:39

One is you mentioned your tattoos

2:16:41

and I was wondering if there were any tattoos

2:16:46

that you chose to get

2:16:49

that had to do with your experience in the military?

2:16:50

-

Yeah, I got,

2:16:54

I mean, I got the day after,

2:16:56

and you know, I wanna to say this before we get into this.

2:17:01

I think George Bush made a bunch of jerk assy decisions.

2:17:06

I used to think he was a very evil man.

2:17:09

And again, getting into the whole life perspective thing,

2:17:12

I don't know what the hell I would have done

2:17:16

if I was in his position

2:17:18

I don't know that I would have done any better.

2:17:20

You know, I can sit here and,

2:17:22

Monday morning quarterback him all day long,

2:17:23

but anyway, it was more or less the mentality

2:17:26

of the American people

2:17:29

and not so much George Bush who

2:17:30

I was more at the American people for reelecting him

2:17:32

like, "Okay, you sons of bitches have had four years

2:17:35

"you know what he's doing

2:17:37

"you know what he's doing."

2:17:38

And I voted for him

2:17:39

I voted for the guy the first time

2:17:40

I was like, yeah, I'm in the military, raise my pay.

2:17:41

Republican all the way.

2:17:44

And you know, I was like, okay,

2:17:46

out of the four years

2:17:49

you people know what he does,

2:17:50

you know what his policies are about

2:17:51

and you know the cause of his policies,

2:17:53

you can see that his foreign relations suck.

2:17:55

America has no standing in the world anymore

2:17:59

because he decided to fucking urinate on everybody.

2:18:01

And so I got a tattoo the day after he got reelected

2:18:05

to the statue of Liberty, shooting yourself in the head

2:18:09

kind of like, you know, death to liberty,

2:18:11

look what you fuckers have done.

2:18:15

And that's what that was and

2:18:17

now, I mean, I have a few other military tattoos

2:18:23

but they're not, they're more just typical

2:18:25

classic military--

2:18:28

Interviewer

Were you out

of the military you got...

2:18:29

Were you still in the military then?

2:18:30

(laughs)

2:18:31

-

Yeah, yeah I was it didn't go over too well.

2:18:33

(laughs)

2:18:35

Did not go over well at all.

2:18:37

But you know, it was again,

2:18:39

it was shit like that

2:18:42

that I probably shouldn't have done

2:18:43

that put a big target on me,

2:18:44

like, hey fuck with this guy.

2:18:46

And you know, maybe if I hadn't been so angry

2:18:47

and doing stuff like that, I might

2:18:50

maybe I wouldn't have gotten charged,

2:18:52

I don't, you know, there's no telling

2:18:53

but I think,

2:18:55

and now I look at it and I'm like, man

2:18:58

like I felt really bad

2:19:00

once president Obama got put in the office

2:19:01

I was sitting there looking at it and I was like,

2:19:03

people will take this in an entirely different way now.

2:19:04

I guess it depends on who's in office

2:19:08

as to how people look at this.

2:19:09

(laughs)

2:19:11

But once you know, and a lot of people do take offense

2:19:12

to it living in the South.

2:19:15

There's a lot of people that take offense to it

2:19:19

and I did get questioned about it.

2:19:20

And it's one of those things that once I sit down

2:19:22

and explain to people, hey, here's who I am

2:19:24

this is what happened to me

2:19:26

and this is when I got this in my life,

2:19:28

most people understand

2:19:29

they're like, okay.

2:19:30

Yeah, probably.

2:19:32

Interviewer

You tell them all that when they ask you?

2:19:32

-

Yeah.

2:19:34

Interviewer

When did you leave the military

2:19:36

what year was that?

2:19:37

-

I got out of the military, October 1st, 2007.

2:19:39

That was the happiest day of my life.

2:19:43

(laughs)

2:19:45

Interviewer

So, I mean, listen to your story

2:19:48

I'm really struck by the fact that like,

2:19:50

there's these two major impacts that the military

2:19:51

the government, but really the military

2:19:55

is gonna have on you.

2:19:57

One is, you know, taking me overseas

2:19:58

and you're doing this interrogation

2:19:59

and then second is the trial

2:20:02

and the treatment that you got when you returned.

2:20:05

And you said that it's all kind of mixed up in a way,

2:20:07

but I'm wondering as you think back on that

2:20:11

which of those was more traumatic?

2:20:13

-

The trial.

2:20:15

The process, those three years

2:20:18

from when I got back to when I was acquitted.

2:20:20

Those three years were definitely the most traumatic.

2:20:23

Like the stuff that I did in combat and I've been in combat

2:20:27

I wasn't just some MI punk

2:20:32

who stayed on base the whole time.

2:20:35

No, I went out, I got into lots of firefights

2:20:36

and did all that stuff

2:20:39

that stuff that mentally you've prepared yourself for.

2:20:39

I'm going to war,

2:20:42

I may have to do this.

2:20:43

And you always do get to justify it to yourself.

2:20:45

Well, fuck, they're shooting at me too.

2:20:48

Like, you know, you always have that

2:20:50

in your head as a defense

2:20:52

and I think that's something

2:20:53

that you do prepare yourself for

2:20:54

and everybody deals with it differently.

2:20:55

You know, when you practice on a,

2:20:57

when you practice on a target in the military,

2:20:59

they have faces but they're all painted green

2:21:01

and it's a 3D target that pops up.

2:21:03

But it's all that all of green.

2:21:05

So you can't make out the facial features.

2:21:08

No, when you get in a firefight or you see people

2:21:10

you look in their eyes, you see them

2:21:12

and you know,

2:21:14

in that stuff there's times that where

2:21:16

yeah, I don't do well with fireworks

2:21:18

and things like that.

2:21:22

And when the air base here starts doing low flying maneuvers

2:21:23

it definitely gets a reaction

2:21:27

from me and heightens my senses.

2:21:29

But there is a lot more triggers that I've experienced from

2:21:32

that are trial related and pretrial related.

2:21:36

I definitely, I deal with the war stuff a lot easier

2:21:41

and I do the trial stuff

2:21:46

the trial is more, more betrayal.

2:21:47

I mean who, I think it's about anybody will tell you

2:21:49

with being betrayed by people close to you is probably

2:21:52

one of the worst feelings you can have of saying

2:21:56

these people that I loved and cared for.

2:21:58

And when you feel betrayed by them

2:22:02

whether you're being betrayed or not

2:22:03

it's not a great feeling.

2:22:05

Interviewer

That's it John?

2:22:09

-

Yeah.

2:22:10

Interviewer

I think I'm fine with closing

2:22:13

I did wanna just ask you

2:22:16

did you ever volunteer with veterans organizations?

2:22:18

Wouldn't they want to--

2:22:22

-

I'm a member of

2:22:23

and I believe they've changed

2:22:24

it's been a long time since I was an active member

2:22:26

but I am a member of Iraq veterans against the war

2:22:28

and Iraq and Afghan veterans of America

2:22:32

there's veterans of foreign wars

2:22:35

I'm member of all those organizations.

2:22:36

But as far as participating,

2:22:39

no, because it's very hard to find people

2:22:42

with my mindset and outlook.

2:22:47

We all wanna surround ourselves by like-minded people.

2:22:50

And I find a lot of the guys that hang out

2:22:52

with those organizations

2:22:54

except for our veterans against the wars

2:22:56

completely opposite,

2:22:58

but maybe they're a little too far out there for me even.

2:22:58

(coughs)

2:23:04

But like with the VFW and the stuff that

2:23:04

these are guys that all had a,

2:23:08

that man the military is the best thing

2:23:10

that ever happened to them

2:23:11

and they love, they love the military,

2:23:12

they love it.

2:23:16

Love it, love it, love it.

2:23:17

They just wanna drink beer, scratch themselves

2:23:19

and fucking sing their national Anthem all day who knew.

2:23:21

And like I love this country too

2:23:24

but I love it in a different way.

2:23:26

And I find that even though I can accept that,

2:23:28

okay, this is how you love our country

2:23:32

they're not necessarily too welcoming

2:23:34

to how I love our country.

2:23:36

(laughs)

2:23:38

So I really I'm kind of off put by a lot of veterans groups.

2:23:39

Interviewer

So Damien, is there something else

2:23:48

now that I didn't ask you that

2:23:49

maybe you want to just shut me,

2:23:52

I think you shared a lot, but you know.

2:23:54

-

Yeah, I can't,

2:23:57

I don't know--

2:23:59

Interviewer

About you know,

2:24:00

I think you've said even about going forward

2:24:01

and I think you've said a lot.

2:24:03

-

Yeah, I mean, yeah,

2:24:08

I don't really know anything else that I can think of.

2:24:09

Interviewer

Johnny is there anything else?

2:24:13

Well then I think we'll take 20 seconds more again

2:24:15

of a room tone that a guy needs to do

2:24:18

before we can shut it down.

2:24:20

-

Okay.

-

Begin room tone.

2:24:22

End room tone.

2:24:41

Corsetti, Damien, interview 2 - Interview master file

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