Bradley, Yvonne - Interview master file / Witness to Guantanamo / Duke Digital Repository

Cameraman

Okay, we're rolling.

0:05

Interviewer

Okay, good afternoon.

0:06

-

Good afternoon.

0:08

Interviewer

We are very grateful to you

0:09

for participating in the Witness to Guantanamo Project.

0:10

We'd like you to speak of your experiences and involvement

0:14

with detainees who were held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

0:18

We're hoping to provide you with an opportunity

0:22

to tell your story in your own words.

0:24

We are creating an archive of stories

0:28

so that people in America and around the world

0:30

will have a better understanding

0:33

of what you and others have experienced and observed.

0:35

Future generations must know what happened at Guantanamo

0:40

and by telling your story, you're contributing to history.

0:44

We appreciate your courage and willingness to speak with us.

0:49

-

Thank you.

0:52

Interviewer

If any time during the interview

0:54

you'd like to take a break, please let us know.

0:56

-

Okay.

0:58

Interviewer

And if there's anything you say

1:00

that you'd rather retract, just let us know

1:01

and we can retract it.

1:03

-

That's fine.

1:04

Interviewer

And I would like to begin

1:05

with just some basic background information

1:06

on who you are.

1:08

-

Sure.

1:09

And before we even do that, I'd just like to let you know

1:10

that the opinions I will express are my opinions,

1:13

they do not represent the Department of Defense,

1:17

the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. Air Force Reserves

1:19

or any government agency.

1:22

Interviewer

Wonderful, good, thank you.

1:24

-

You're welcome.

1:25

Interviewer

And so, your name?

1:26

-

My name's Yvonne Bradley.

1:27

Interviewer

And your marital status?

1:30

-

I'm single.

1:35

Interviewer

And education?

1:36

-

Went to law school in Philadelphia, St. George University

1:38

in Philadelphia and went to law school

1:41

at Notre Dame Law School in South Bend, Indiana.

1:44

Interviewer

And your current place of residence?

1:49

-

I'm stationed, right now, at McGuire Air Force Base,

1:51

but I still live outside of Philadelphia.

1:55

-

Your current occupation then?

2:00

-

I'm an attorney.

2:02

Interviewer

And what exactly do you do in the military?

2:04

-

I'm what you call JAG officer, I'm a lawyer.

2:08

Just to answer, judge advocate general,

2:11

just a fancy word for the way the military titles attorneys.

2:13

Interviewer

Could you first describe

2:19

how you entered the military and then how that led

2:22

to you going to Guantanamo?

2:24

-

Well, I been in for nearly 20 years,

2:27

so, but 20 years ago after I got out of law school,

2:31

one of the things I wanted to do was to travel

2:34

and practice law, didn't think I could do that

2:36

with a regular law firm and knew that the military

2:39

would offer me that opportunity,

2:42

so I went into the military program,

2:44

the JAG program, was first stationed

2:46

at Travis Air Force Base in San Francisco

2:49

and then had the opportunity to do some defense work

2:51

when I was at Travis, I love doing defense work.

2:55

From there, I was stationed at Hickam Air Force Base

2:58

in Hawaii and after six years, I got out,

3:00

came back home to Philadelphia, a practice in Philadelphia,

3:03

worked for the Federal Defenders Office

3:07

in their Capital Habeas Unit,

3:09

representing individuals in Philadelphia

3:12

and throughout the state of Pennsylvania, actually,

3:15

who were on death row.

3:17

And then, did that for six years.

3:19

After six years of working with

3:22

the Capital Defense Habeas Unit,

3:23

I then went on my own, hung up my own shingles,

3:27

did criminal defense, family law,

3:30

a variety of different law cases

3:32

that would come into the office

3:35

and it was there, working on my own,

3:37

that a notice went out asking for attorneys

3:39

and even when I got out, back up a little,

3:43

even when I got out of the military after six years,

3:45

I did go into the reserves, I was what we call

3:47

a weekend warrior, still a JAG weekend warrior,

3:49

and there was a request for attorneys to volunteer,

3:53

do some volunteer work to represent individuals

3:58

at Guantanamo Bay.

4:01

Interviewer

What year was this?

4:02

-

This was about 2005.

4:03

I think the notice came in about spring 2005,

4:05

it was a email notice saying they were just looking for

4:07

attorneys or JAGS who may be interested

4:11

in doing work in Guantanamo Bay.

4:13

I knew about Guantanamo from the news,

4:16

from what I read about Guantanamo.

4:18

Interviewer

What did you know about Guantanamo?

4:20

-

Very little, as I've turned out to find out,

4:21

truly what was happening in Guantanamo, unfortunately.

4:25

Pretty much what I knew, I knew there was a prison there,

4:27

at the time, I was being told it was the worst of the worst,

4:30

individuals being held at Guantanamo Bay,

4:34

that individuals who were involved in 9/11

4:36

or killing Americans or wanting to do really bad things

4:39

to individuals were being held at Guantanamo

4:42

and that we were gonna hold them

4:46

and give them fair, full and fair trials

4:47

and I've heard about the situation with James Yee,

4:49

Captain Yee, at the time.

4:55

So, I had heard things through the media,

4:57

through newspapers, through those sources about Guantanamo.

4:59

End up happening once I got to Guantanamo-

5:03

Interviewer

Before you get there,

5:06

so you volunteered when this came out?

5:08

-

Yes.

5:10

Interviewer

And were you afraid at all

5:11

before you went there?

5:13

Were you in fear that, if you said these are

5:15

the worst of the worst, that you'd think

5:16

these are gonna be really awful people

5:18

that you were gonna be defending?

5:20

-

Well, I thought, my background of representing people

5:21

on death row, I was representing the worst of the worst,

5:27

people had already been convicted of killing people,

5:31

serial killers, I represented people who were, you know,

5:34

probably really the worst of the worst.

5:38

So in some sense, I did not fear in that way,

5:41

but that were terrorists, I realized, you know,

5:44

were terrorists, yes I did have some concern

5:47

for my safety when, and representing a terrorist,

5:49

what that would mean.

5:53

I thought more of representing someone who was a terrorist

5:55

that was subjecting myself and my family

5:58

to possible repercussions from a terrorist

6:01

more than anything else.

6:04

Interviewer

Why did you volunteer

6:05

if you were gonna represent people

6:06

who could be a danger to you and your family.

6:08

-

It was a, just the challenge

6:10

because I'm a defense attorney

6:12

and it was a challenge of knowing something historical

6:14

was happening at Guantanamo Bay,

6:17

understanding at the same time

6:19

that everyone needs full and proper representation,

6:21

so I think it was that defense attorney part of me

6:27

that wanted to step out and represent individuals

6:30

at Guantanamo Bay.

6:35

And I don't even think I thought about

6:37

the terrorist part of it so much

6:38

until the first time I had to go down

6:40

and meet my client, I don't think it really clicked

6:42

on that I was representing a terrorist,

6:45

I thought I was representing, doing my duty to my country,

6:47

helping my country, serving my country

6:51

and being, using my defense skills in a positive way

6:53

on the so-called war on terror.

6:56

Interviewer

Did you know who you'd be representing

6:58

before you flew down?

7:00

-

I did.

7:02

In the spring of 2005 when the notice went out,

7:03

I kind of, I did debate whether or not to volunteer

7:05

to get involved and decided that I would.

7:08

In November of 2005, I get a call from

7:11

the Chief Defense Counsel stating that I had been selected.

7:14

By that time, I had almost forgot I had even

7:18

threw my name in the hat.

7:20

This had been several months later

7:22

when I was finally informed that I had been selected.

7:23

And I remember the first conversation I had

7:27

with the Chief Defense Counsel

7:29

and he said, "I have the perfect case for you,"

7:31

he said, "I want you to represent a individual

7:33

by the name of Binyam Mohamed."

7:35

And one of the reasons why he thought Mr. Mohamed's case

7:37

would be a perfect case for me to have

7:40

was that Clive Stafford Smith, who was my co-counsel

7:43

on Mr. Mohamed's case, had also done capital cases

7:47

out of the South and probably other places in the U.S.

7:53

So, with me having a background in representing individuals

7:57

in death row and Clive having the same background,

8:02

he thought the two of us would make a good team

8:04

in representing Mr. Mohamed.

8:08

-

Was Mr. Mohamed a capital case

8:10

that they put both of you on?

8:11

-

At one point, I think they were looking at

8:13

some of those early individuals

8:16

that they were going to try as capital cases

8:18

and Mr. Mohamed's case was one of the first,

8:21

there was 10 people they were gonna try

8:24

as one of the first 10 cases and I think there was talk

8:25

about, perhaps, those individuals in those first 10 cases

8:30

of detainees they were gonna try, possibly,

8:33

in a capital case.

8:35

So I think that was played in the background

8:37

of why I was selected as counsel for Mr. Mohamed

8:39

and why the Chief Defense Counsel

8:44

thought Clive and I would make a pretty good team

8:46

in representing his best interest.

8:48

Interviewer

So then, what happened next

8:50

after they told you you were gonna be coming out

8:54

to Guantanamo?

8:56

-

Well, that was very interesting

8:57

because that was in November of 2005,

8:58

by December 2005, I found myself flying down to Guantanamo.

9:03

In fact, the day after Christmas.

9:06

Because once Clive realized that military CASA

9:09

had been appointed to the case,

9:12

he thought it was extremely important

9:14

that we go down and meet the client right away.

9:16

Now I'm thinking, "Right away, it's the holiday season,

9:18

we can wait until January," Clive was like,

9:21

"We need to go and see him as soon as possible."

9:23

So, the 26th of December, I'm flying down to Florida

9:26

to meet Clive for the first time.

9:30

I had heard of Clive, I had seen Clive at a conference,

9:32

but I had never met him one on one

9:35

and so, I remember, we met down in a hotel in Florida,

9:37

at a Ramada Inn, I think it was, I'm not quite sure,

9:43

and I remember meeting him and for the first time,

9:47

trying to discuss Binyam's case.

9:51

Even prior to that, he had sent me a list

9:56

of the other charges and the evidence that he had

9:58

because he had met Binyam in the spring, early on,

10:02

and so, he knew a lot more about the case

10:06

than I did at the time.

10:08

But I still recall when Clive had originally faxed me over

10:10

and/or emailed me over the charge sheet

10:15

and the evidence he had.

10:17

I remember reading through the charge sheet

10:19

and just laughing because I thought this was a joke.

10:21

I'm reading through these charges,

10:24

I am waiting for, you know, who did he murder?

10:26

What mass destruction did he cause?

10:29

I'm waiting for a war crime and all I see

10:32

is this one long conspiracy and everyone's name

10:36

that you could connect at that time

10:39

to allege Al-Qaeda organization was on the charge sheet,

10:41

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Bin Laden, Richard Reid,

10:48

I'm like, "This is like a fraternity,"

10:52

it just, it made no sense to me.

10:54

And I read, and then at the very end,

10:56

the thing that got me in reading the charge sheet,

10:57

at the very end it said, "And he was apprehended

11:00

at Karachi Airport going back to London."

11:03

And after reading this complex conspiracy

11:07

and not seeing a real crime and seeing that he was picked up

11:09

at the airport, I'm going...

11:11

I remember either emailing Clive or calling Clive

11:13

and saying, "Clive, I don't think you sent me everything

11:16

because this doesn't make sense."

11:18

"Where is the crime and what do you mean

11:20

he was at the airport going back to London?"

11:22

"Because right now, what you've given me

11:25

doesn't state a criminal activity that's a war crime."

11:27

And Clive's like, "That's it, that's the evidence

11:32

against the government."

11:36

And I was like, "Okay, this is gonna be

11:37

a very interesting case."

11:39

So, to go back to when I first met Clive in Florida

11:41

at the hotel, the first time that we met,

11:47

we talked a little bit about the case

11:50

and that whole approach of how

11:52

we're gonna go and see Mr. Mohamed.

11:54

And I guess it was really at that point

11:56

when I start thinking, "I'm gonna go really see

11:58

a real terrorist."

12:00

And, I mean, that's what I'm thinking

12:01

in the back of my mind, I'm thinking,

12:03

"Wow, you know, from what you read in the newspaper

12:05

how these people put planes into buildings,

12:08

how these people just want to kill Americans,

12:11

how they just, you know," you just get this vision

12:13

of vicious individuals.

12:18

And this is from someone who had represented people

12:20

who were really convicted of crimes.

12:24

And I remember the first time going to see Mr. Mohamed,

12:27

I, at that particular time, I'm kind of embarrassed

12:30

to say this now, I was really scared to go in to meet him.

12:34

And I had no reason to be scared and given my background,

12:40

given my criminal background, given that I've sat

12:43

face to face with people who were convicted of crimes,

12:46

but I remember walking in there and thinking,

12:50

"Wow, I'm scared to what you can even say

12:52

to this individual."

12:56

And I think it was at that point

12:57

when I start putting together, after meeting Mr. Mohamed

12:59

and seeing him, seeing his demeanor

13:04

and looking into his eyes and seeing his body language,

13:06

that he was probably more scared of me

13:09

than I was of him and-

13:11

Interviewer

What demeanor did you see?

13:13

-

I mean, you could look at him

13:15

and he was just looking at me as like,

13:17

"What is this all about?"

13:19

"Who are you?"

13:21

Because he had no idea who I was.

13:22

And I'm coming in telling him,

13:25

and he had no choice, I'm coming in telling him,

13:27

"I'm your attorney," and he's trying to figure out,

13:30

"Are you really my attorney?"

13:33

"Is this a," because one of the things I heard

13:35

that they were doing at Guantanamo

13:38

was after attorneys would meet with certain clients

13:40

or that individuals would go in,

13:43

I don't know who they were, saying they were attorneys,

13:46

trying to get detainees to confess or open up

13:48

or make admissions, so part of, I think,

13:52

probably that was going through his process is,

13:55

"What kind of trick is this?"

13:58

"Is this real?"

13:59

Because in Guantanamo, it's Alice in Wonderland,

14:01

you don't know what's real, you don't know what's,

14:03

it's absolutely madness.

14:08

But, I mean, I didn't understand that at the time,

14:10

so I could see in his eyes, just, like,

14:12

bewilderment of "Who are you?"

14:14

He knew who Clive was and I think

14:17

one of the things that happened in that meeting

14:19

with Clive introducing him to me,

14:21

in fact, before I even went in,

14:23

Clive went in before me because we were scared for me

14:25

to walk in there and him trying to figure out,

14:28

"Who is this individual?"

14:30

So, Clive did go in and meet with him in the afternoon,

14:31

in the morning and try to tell him,

14:35

"There's an attorney who's been appointed to your case,

14:37

I've talked with her," how it would help him

14:41

to try to put him at ease.

14:44

But even with Clive going in there,

14:45

and I came in there, I made sure I didn't dress

14:48

in my military uniform the first time

14:50

'cause I thought that that would be important

14:52

because all of the people who he stated abused him

14:53

was somehow a part of either wearing uniforms,

14:57

saying they're a part of the military of some nature,

15:01

on a daily basis, the way they were getting treated,

15:05

they were all a part of the military,

15:07

so I thought, psychologically,

15:08

I don't want to walk in there in a uniform.

15:10

So, when I walked in with, in my civilian clothes,

15:13

I could still see in Binyam that, really,

15:18

even though Clive had already explained to him,

15:21

"Is this a game?"

15:24

And one of the things that happened,

15:25

I think it started making distrust Clive

15:26

'cause now he has to think, "Is this part of

15:29

some kind of trick?"

15:31

"Is this part of some kind of deceit?"

15:33

So, I think instead of accepting me right away,

15:37

it started to make him start wondering,

15:39

"What is this all about?"

15:42

But his whole body language, and as I said,

15:43

given my experience, I have represented people before,

15:47

so you learn to read tone, body language, demeanor,

15:49

everything that Binyam was giving me

15:56

during that three or four hours I met with him

15:58

the first time, Clive was asking most of the questions,

16:00

I was just really looking and listening to Binyam,

16:03

watching him, everything struck me as, "This is nonsense."

16:06

So I walk into the cell thinking,

16:11

"Oh my God, this guy's a terrorist,

16:12

I'm not gonna give him any information,

16:15

he's probably gonna get something out

16:17

to do something against me or my family,"

16:19

I walk in there with that type of attitude,

16:21

I walked out saying, "This is total nonsense."

16:23

Almost angry because I realized for the first time

16:27

that whatever I knew about Guantanamo,

16:33

whatever I read about Guantanamo,

16:36

whatever information they had about Binyam

16:37

was likely not true.

16:40

And that was the first time when it just hit me,

16:42

like, wow, how fear and propaganda

16:44

can make such a difference on how people understand things.

16:48

And I was probably more mad coming out of that cell

16:52

with Binyam than I was scared when I first went in

16:54

to meet the client.

16:58

Interviewer

So, I'm hearing you, it sounds like

16:59

your instincts made the entire change in you,

17:01

you just, from just by meeting this man,

17:05

you decided everything is a fraud.

17:08

-

Yes and that was based just,

17:12

I mean, at that point, I had been practicing law

17:15

for at least 15-16 years, and I had been in many prison,

17:16

federal prisons and you learn to survive, I think,

17:21

to be a good defense attorney of representing people

17:25

on that level of reading people.

17:29

Because, and I'm not naive, I walked into many prisons

17:32

of people sitting on death row

17:36

and the first thing they tell you, "I didn't do it,"

17:39

and you've already read the case file,

17:40

you already seen the evidence,

17:41

you read through the transcript,

17:42

you're going, "Yes, I know, I know the story already,

17:43

you didn't do it," so I wasn't, I didn't go in there naive,

17:46

like, "I'm getting tricked by some so-called terrorist,"

17:49

I went in there as a person, very seasoned attorney

17:52

who has represented individuals from all,

17:55

from anywhere from marijuana possession to serial killers

17:59

and I was able to sit there right then going,

18:05

"This isn't, this is not clicking,

18:09

this goes through every experience I have,"

18:11

and even if he was, his, there wasn't even enough

18:15

on the charge sheet when I first read it

18:19

to make me think this is a war crime,

18:21

let alone after meeting the client

18:24

and listening to him and what was happened

18:27

to realize what we're being told wasn't the full truth,

18:30

it was what, I think, people wanted us to hear

18:36

to justify the current political situation.

18:39

Interviewer

So when you left there, what happened next?

18:44

-

When I left that day, when I left Binyam's cell,

18:48

I had to go do some soul searching myself.

18:54

I mean, to some extent, it rocked my faith in my government,

18:57

it rocked my faith in what I was sent down there to do.

19:00

But it also gave me the determination

19:05

that I was gonna represent this individual fully, zealously

19:07

because I thought what was about to take place

19:13

down in Guantanamo was a travesty of justice.

19:16

And I figured if this happened to my client,

19:20

those other 10 individuals were probably

19:22

pretty much in the same situation.

19:25

So, it was really part of my charge,

19:30

both as a defense attorney,

19:33

but on a personal level, as well,

19:35

of what I was gonna do representing my government,

19:38

I knew our government and the JAG Corps was more,

19:40

was above this, that we wouldn't stoop to this level.

19:44

So, I mean, it really rocked the foundation

19:47

of many things that I believed in

19:51

and thought that we represented

19:53

in that short period of a time.

19:57

But then there was also that confusion, too,

19:59

it's like, "Am I over-reading this?"

20:01

"Maybe he's that good and I'm just being fooled."

20:02

Really, you get torn back and forth

20:06

between "Do I believe what my, I'm believing deep inside

20:09

or am I just reading this wrong?"

20:14

Yeah, I had to do a lot of soul searching

20:16

'cause there was confusion with me

20:18

because you do go back and forth.

20:20

You go in fearful, you come out mad,

20:21

you come out thinking, "Am I the crazy one

20:24

where maybe I'm reading this wrong?"

20:27

It really does make you think about what this was all about.

20:29

Interviewer

Did you have anyone to talk to?

20:35

-

Clive was like, the thing is, Clive was the only one

20:37

I really could talk to 'cause now you have

20:40

attorney-client privileges that you have to protect.

20:42

I wasn't even telling my friends,

20:47

my friends thought I was being really mysterious

20:48

because I wasn't telling them I was involved in Guantanamo.

20:50

I feel like Guantanamo was almost the same, even worse

20:52

than when I was in capital cases.

20:56

When I used to do capital cases,

20:57

I didn't tell a lot of people what I would do

20:59

because death penalty and the death sentence capital cases,

21:00

people have very strong opinions

21:04

whether or not, you know, you should execute someone or not.

21:06

So I learned not to really tell people what to do

21:09

because I didn't want to get into this debate

21:11

about whether it was right for capital punishment,

21:12

I had better things to do with my life

21:15

than have these debates.

21:17

And Guantanamo became that ten times more

21:19

that I didn't tell anyone what I was doing,

21:22

just because I didn't want to get into that conflict,

21:24

particularly when I was having conflict in myself

21:27

about Guantanamo.

21:29

So, I really didn't have too many people to talk to,

21:32

so a lot of the conversation, you know,

21:36

Clive and I, from the legal scale,

21:38

but from talking to someone about my concerns about it,

21:40

it was a very limited circle, pretty much

21:46

in the defense community.

21:49

And that was even hard, too, because it was only

21:51

a small number of us and the charge sheet,

21:54

many of the first 10 individuals who were tried,

21:59

they were, been named in each others' charge sheets,

22:02

so now you have these co-conspirators and co-defendants,

22:04

so you really can't talk to other people's attorneys,

22:07

so you don violate any ethical violations

22:09

and that became another entire issue later on

22:13

at a hearing that I almost got locked up

22:18

when we had some ethical disputes about the organization,

22:21

how the Office of Military Commission Defense

22:26

was even set up, but that's a different story.

22:30

Interviewer

We'll get to that, yeah.

22:32

So, could you then take us to after you left that day

22:34

and did you go back the next day or?

22:37

-

I think we met with Binyam two or three times,

22:42

I don't remember.

22:47

That first meeting just stands out so much in my mind,

22:49

just because of the emotional back and forth

22:52

I went on the case.

22:54

I think we might've met with him

22:56

probably the next day or two

22:59

and I think Clive had other clients there

23:00

that he also met, but during that first time period

23:02

when I met Mr. Mohamed, I allowed Clive

23:06

to do most of the speaking and I just was pretty much

23:09

trying to take notes, also trying to put Binyam at ease.

23:13

I must've met with him the second day

23:19

because I think the next time I went back,

23:21

I had to be in uniform and this was the other,

23:24

Guantanamo was full with silly absolute rules that,

23:27

I couldn't even write the nonsense in there

23:32

on a bad, not that I do drugs at all,

23:35

but even if I did drugs and had a bad trip,

23:38

I couldn't write half the rules

23:40

that they came up with at Guantanamo.

23:42

And one of the rules was that as new defense counsel,

23:46

military defense counsel, you had,

23:48

you were allowed one time to go in to meet your client

23:50

without your uniform on to try to set up the rapport,

23:53

as if, you know, one time without your uniform

23:57

is gonna set up any rapport.

24:00

I saw Binyam's reaction the first time I went in there

24:01

without a uniform and just say, "I'm your defense counsel"

24:04

and, but the rule was you could go,

24:08

the military defense counsel can go in one meeting,

24:12

one time without uniform, after that,

24:15

you had to wear your uniform.

24:18

So, the next time, 'cause I would've liked to ease it in

24:20

because I think, psychologically, here again,

24:24

for the detainee, the people who are holding him,

24:26

the people who are either mistreating him

24:30

or treating him kindly, his whole situation

24:33

is with the military, people wearing uniform.

24:35

So I thought it was very important for counsel,

24:38

as long as counsel felt it was comfortable

24:41

to be in uniform, to try to make that separation

24:43

because you are representing these individuals,

24:45

not to be in uniform.

24:47

But, no, we don't make those type of rules,

24:49

you had to go with the uniform.

24:51

So, I think I even told Binyam after our first meeting,

24:53

"Next time you see me, I will be in uniform,"

24:56

just to help him to understand that.

24:59

So, I do believe now, looking back on it,

25:03

I must've met with him the next day

25:06

and I walked in there in the uniform,

25:09

which I'm quite sure he then is thinking,

25:12

"What nonsense are you guys playing with me now?"

25:15

"Are you really a attorney?"

25:18

"Is this part of some kind of, are you,

25:20

just want me, get me to make admissions?"

25:22

You could just read it on his body language,

25:25

he had no idea what was going on.

25:27

Interviewer

When you came to Guantanamo,

25:31

did you get a chance to observe the prison system at all

25:33

or anything beside just going to the unit

25:36

where you met Binyam?

25:39

-

Well, I remember the very first time,

25:41

and I had been to many prisons before

25:43

and I know how prisons work, I think one of the things

25:45

that struck me on the prison system

25:50

was just the way that counsel was treated.

25:52

No man used to, as an attorney,

25:56

would go into a prison, federal prison, state prison,

25:58

that attorneys are treated as attorneys.

26:02

There's a sense of trust that you will follow the rules

26:05

of the facility, your items aren't looking,

26:11

are not looked through,

26:14

-

Inspected.

-

inspected, as they were at Guantanamo

26:18

and I just felt, this was my personal opinion,

26:20

that we were treated as if we were part of the,

26:23

as if I was an enemy.

26:28

I had to say, at times, "I'm in uniform, I'm one of you,"

26:29

I just didn't like the tone and the feel,

26:34

you could feel the distrust and I wasn't used to,

26:37

when I went into a prison, having my papers

26:41

searched through, so the first time that happened,

26:43

I'm going, "You can't do that,"

26:45

I'm thinking that, I don't know if I said that out loud,

26:47

and I think Clive was really good

26:49

because he kind of prepared me for a couple of things,

26:50

which I'd have been shocked, both as an officer

26:53

in the military, to be treated as if

26:57

you have to go through my inspection,

26:59

as if I'm gonna sneak in a file to this individual,

27:02

I carry the same type of security clearance as you,

27:05

I had to go to top security clearance,

27:08

I've been in the military for a number of years,

27:10

I'm an officer, so I felt a level of betrayal, of distrust

27:12

that you would think I would do anything

27:17

that would jeopardize, even national security,

27:19

of representing my client.

27:22

So, the whole system down there,

27:23

I thought was askewed to establish distrust

27:25

in defense attorneys, establishing trust

27:29

between defense attorneys and detainees.

27:32

When your client ask you for certain things,

27:36

you could say, "Hey, I can't bring a,

27:39

we gotta wait for a spork to be brought in

27:41

because they think, if I bring you a stirrer

27:43

from McDonald's, you're gonna form some kind of weapon

27:47

and," I mean, it just became madness

27:49

when looking at the system.

27:54

Interviewer

Did you say the papers you brought in

27:57

had to be inspected before you could bring them

27:58

into your meeting?

28:01

Is that what you're saying?

28:03

-

Yes, they had to be inspected before,

28:05

they had to be inspected after.

28:06

And when I say inspected, normally,

28:09

I've been to prisons where you might have to go through

28:11

a metal detector or they might just

28:14

open up the case, courtesy type of thing,

28:14

but at Guantanamo, I mean, they would go page by page

28:17

and they would do this.

28:20

I'm saying, "You can't read my documents,"

28:21

"We're not reading, we're scanning them."

28:24

I'm like, and, but they would take pages out

28:26

and they would put it aside,

28:28

I'm like, "Why are you taking that page aside?"

28:29

"Uh, there's um," I don't, I can't remember what the word

28:31

that they would use, but it was something on there

28:34

that I couldn't bring in, I'm like,

28:37

"How do you know there's something on that paper

28:38

I can't bring in if you're not reading it?"

28:39

"Oh, we're not reading, we're just scanning it."

28:40

"But you're just, you're doing something

28:44

that you're identifying the paper."

28:45

And in the particular situation,

28:46

it had a I.D. number from another client on it

28:49

and I think it was even documents

28:54

that my client had written me about certain things.

28:55

I said, "You can't do that,

28:59

that's an attorney-client privilege,

29:00

they're privileged documents, you cannot sit this aside."

29:02

But they would do that, they would go through page by page,

29:05

going like this, reading through,

29:08

telling me, "We're not reading, we're just scanning it."

29:10

And, contraband, that was the word that they would use

29:15

that, you know, if you brought anything in,

29:16

they would call it contraband.

29:18

Interviewer

Who was they?

29:20

Who were these people?

29:22

-

The guards.

29:23

And I don't take it on the guards,

29:24

the guards were following the standard operation procedures

29:25

that they were given.

29:28

But anything that you brought in

29:30

was subject to full inspection,

29:32

even down to if you brought in a sandwich from McDonald's,

29:36

they would go through and they'd make a list,

29:40

one Big Mac, one soda, french fries,

29:42

I'm going, "Okay, guys."

29:46

And it became ridiculous at times.

29:50

Interviewer

Go on.

29:55

-

No, I was gonna recall another time of,

29:56

another example of contraband.

29:57

And this happened in 2006 right after the suicides

30:00

and it was coincidence.

30:04

The suicides happened on the weekend

30:07

in which I was, Binyam had two hearings in 206,

30:10

he had a hearing in April and then that April hearing

30:15

led to a hearing in June in 2006

30:18

and it was on a Monday, I don't remember

30:22

what particular day on Monday,

30:23

but that Saturday, it was a Friday or Saturday,

30:26

they had the suicides.

30:29

And when they had the suicides,

30:32

of course they canceled Binyam's meeting.

30:33

And I had my own theory of why they canceled the hearing,

30:35

his hearing, and I think part of what,

30:38

they didn't want the press and the media

30:39

down in Guantanamo after these suicides,

30:41

which they would've had with Binyam's hearing coming up.

30:45

In fact, they had some press who came in early

30:49

and they quickly isolated them

30:50

and got them off of Guantanamo.

30:52

When they canceled Binyam's hearing,

30:56

they never told Binyam what happened,

30:58

they just came in, they took boxes out of his cell.

31:00

In fact, during this time period,

31:02

we learned they took boxes from all the detainees,

31:04

they took all their materials.

31:07

So, one day when they come in

31:09

and they take Binyam's boxes,

31:11

he's think they're taking his items for a hearing,

31:12

but they don't tell him they're taking them,

31:16

they're seizing everything because of these suicides

31:17

'cause then they're out trying to figure out

31:19

who, why these suicides happened.

31:22

They don't tell Binyam his hearing is canceled,

31:25

so he sits there all day Monday

31:27

waiting for them to come for a hearing that,

31:29

so he's thinking now, we're holding these hearings

31:32

without him, I later figure out,

31:35

he thinks we're holding this hearing without him,

31:36

we betrayed him, this is another establishment of distrust

31:38

the system put in to these attorney-client relationships.

31:41

I can't get down there until about July,

31:45

so when I come down there in July,

31:48

I realize I've only met this individual a few times,

31:49

he still doesn't trust me, I need to explain to him

31:52

what happened.

31:55

So I go out to the BBC, which I figure

31:56

he's a UK resident, he's a, you know, British resident,

31:58

I go to a source that he knows, the BBC,

32:02

so he knows I'm not telling the truth,

32:05

to let him know why I couldn't come down there for a month,

32:06

about the suicides.

32:10

I don't think the BBC's giving out

32:14

national security information, so I try to bring in

32:15

the newspapers to show Binyam, "Hey, this is what happened,

32:19

this is why I wasn't here," because he's not gonna

32:22

take my word for it, I figured that if you see it

32:24

from a third source, the BBC, perhaps you'll understand

32:26

what happened, why I couldn't come down here

32:29

for a period of time.

32:31

I go in, they're inspecting my paper,

32:32

I'm not hiding anything, it's all in there in my paperwork,

32:35

and they come across the newspaper article,

32:38

you would think I was carrying in

32:42

weapons of mass destruction.

32:44

Next thing I know, "You have contraband,

32:47

we don't know what to do, you can't go in,"

32:50

they're calling the legal office,

32:52

there were guards coming, I'm going,

32:54

they're reading this paper, I'm like,

32:56

"It's from the British BBC, it's to explain to my client

32:57

why I wasn't here."

33:02

"Ma'am, do you know what you can cause by bringing this in?"

33:04

I'm like, "They don't know about the deaths here?"

33:09

"This has been a month."

33:11

"You can't bring this, they can't know

33:12

this type of information."

33:14

And I said, "Well, okay, I won't bring it in,

33:16

just hold it, hold onto it and I'll take the article with me

33:19

when I come out."

33:23

"We can't give this to you back, this is being seized,

33:24

this is contraband."

33:27

And I'm thinking, "What are you talking about?"

33:28

And it was examples of that nature.

33:33

So of course, when I go in and see Binyam,

33:36

I'm trying to explain to him that, you know,

33:39

I can't even say the word suicide,

33:43

I can't even say these deaths happened,

33:46

so I'm tippy toeing around, trying to explain to him

33:49

why I haven't seen him in awhile

33:52

without using the word there were suicides here.

33:55

So suddenly he said, "Well, what about

33:57

the three suicides that happened?"

33:58

I'm going, "You know about the suicides?"

34:00

"Well, yes, I know about the suicides."

34:03

So now it makes me look foolish

34:04

because he's thinking I'm not being honest with him,

34:06

but I'm being told I can't tell you about the suicides

34:09

because that might be a national security concern

34:12

if you know about the suicides,

34:14

and so, we had this whole conversation

34:18

about the suicides.

34:19

And he doesn't think they're suicides,

34:21

but I'm thinking, "How much of this

34:22

can I even engage in?"

34:25

I'm trying to establish a working relationship,

34:26

a trusting relationship and I can't even talk

34:29

about basic facts.

34:31

And I know he's testing me as much as I'm trying to

34:33

establish a relationship with him.

34:36

And that was the continued type of madness

34:39

when we talk about this so-called prison system

34:42

of Guantanamo and how it was so different

34:46

from the real world.

34:48

I mean, I couldn't even ever imagine,

34:50

talk to any of my clients that I ever represented,

34:52

to go in and say, "You can't talk about something

34:55

that's important to the client

34:58

or explain to him why you weren't here

35:01

or why his hearing was," I mean, how do you

35:04

explain to someone that the hearing was canceled

35:07

without telling them it's based on the suicides?

35:10

And I can't talk about the suicides.

35:13

It was that type of madness.

35:17

Interviewer

Do you think your discussions with him

35:19

were being heard by the military?

35:22

-

Oh, no doubt about it.

35:24

There's nothing about Guantanamo that I would trust.

35:26

I wouldn't, it would not surprise me

35:30

that if every single interview I did with Mr. Mohamed

35:34

was recorded and taped in some fashion.

35:37

I kind of joke with my family,

35:41

my sister, in particular, that if I ever ran

35:43

for political office, I'm quite sure

35:45

some tape somewhere from conversations I had

35:47

with Mr. Mohamed will somehow surface in some nature,

35:50

so I tell her I can never run for political office

35:54

'cause I'm quite sure the tapes are out there.

35:56

I mean, they would tell us they weren't,

35:58

that the camera was just running,

36:00

not the audio end, but just the video

36:03

for our own safety and security,

36:05

even though the client is bolted to the floor,

36:07

I don't know what he could possibly do to me

36:11

being bolted to the floor, but for my safety I guess,

36:14

you know, they had to be at least a audio view,

36:17

but they weren't supposed to be taped, but I don't,

36:22

I personally don't believe that there,

36:26

that was the only thing that was running,

36:29

I think that it was probably audio and video tapes.

36:31

Interviewer

Had you heard other stories like your own

36:36

from other lawyers, even if you couldn't talk about

36:39

particular factors of Mohamed,

36:42

had you heard from other attorneys

36:45

of similar situations where they were so frustrated

36:46

in their representations or in that they couldn't be

36:48

totally candid with their client

36:54

because they were under restrictions?

36:56

-

On the military side, yes.

36:57

I mean, I think probably on the civilian side, as well.

36:59

I mean, we were told we couldn't talk about current events,

37:03

we were told that we can't talk about sporting events,

37:05

you could only talk about your case.

37:08

I mean, and 90% of the time, the client already knew

37:10

about certain things and most of the times

37:15

they would ask you questions to test you

37:17

to see if you would tell them the truth.

37:19

So in the back of your head you're like,

37:21

"Okay, I need to talk about this

37:23

because all this stuff is important,"

37:25

but at the same time, I'm being told

37:28

you can't talk about certain things.

37:31

But as long as you can kind of crux it somehow

37:33

in your client's case, which then

37:35

everything became crux somehow, your client's case

37:37

because it became a game of cat and mouse

37:40

of I need to do ethically as an attorney

37:43

to represent my client, I don't represent the Air Force

37:46

at this time or the Department of Justice

37:49

as a defense attorney, I have ethical duty

37:51

to represent my client and do what I need to do

37:54

to do that the best that I can.

37:57

So, a lot of times I think a lot of attorneys

37:59

were being frustrated and I think it was designed

38:01

to frustrate the attorneys, designed to frustrate

38:05

the relationships between the detainee and client

38:09

in the way that the rules were set up.

38:14

And some of it, I don't know was just plain incompetence

38:16

or whether it was by design.

38:20

I know there was one attorney, military attorney,

38:23

he said, "You know, part of this

38:24

is probably more incompetent than by design,"

38:26

but at times, it was hard to tell

38:29

where that line was being drawn

38:31

because a lot of it really focused on just an insanity

38:34

of trying to represent an individual

38:39

with these rules and policies that were in place.

38:42

So I think it frustrated everyone.

38:45

And you would hear stories of,

38:48

I mean, after awhile, it just became,

38:49

we would just, you would just have to laugh at it

38:50

because it just became, you know,

38:52

what's the most craziest story?

38:55

And every time you thought you reached the bottom,

38:57

there was always a new bottom.

39:01

Interviewer

Did you say that you couldn't talk about

39:04

sports events?

39:06

-

You weren't supposed to talk about anything

39:07

that was a current event.

39:09

So, I remember the World Cup,

39:11

I guess this was the '06 World Cup,

39:13

and a lot of them were soccer fans

39:17

and here I am trying to still build rapport

39:19

and my client's asking me, so you know,

39:22

he knew about the World Cup,

39:25

how countries were doing and I'm thinking,

39:26

"Okay, how can I kind of, how does this fit into your case

39:28

if we talk about the World Cup?"

39:31

And but, back of my mind, it felt,

39:33

everything I did was within the realm of the case

39:35

of building rapport, that's part of representing a client.

39:41

So, if talking about the World Cup

39:44

is gonna help bring down those walls

39:46

so I can talk about other more crucial issues,

39:48

then I'm gonna talk about the World Cup

39:51

and if anyone asks me, "Why are you talking about

39:53

the World Cup?"

39:56

I'm gonna say because in order for me

39:57

to be able to represent my client,

39:59

bring down the walls, talk about more essential issues,

40:01

that rapport has to be there.

40:05

Yeah, you, and depending who you talked to that day,

40:08

you would get different responses.

40:13

I mean, there was one occasion where,

40:16

one of the requirements in the military for females

40:19

is that when you're in uniform,

40:21

your hair has to be above your collar line,

40:23

so that means you have to wear bobby pins in or hair bands.

40:26

And I had hair bands and now, I had been down

40:29

to Guantanamo a good dozen time with hair band in my hair,

40:32

I come to the gate and, you know,

40:37

you get wand and everything, and I wouldn't wear bobby pins,

40:39

I would normally just wear rubber hair bands

40:43

to hold up my hair.

40:45

And the guard was going through my bag

40:46

'cause he went through your bag,

40:49

they rubbed, put, opened up every single part of your bag,

40:50

put their hand in the bag, make sure you didn't,

40:53

weren't carrying files and, I guess to give to your client

40:55

to try and escape from Guantanamo,

40:57

and he comes across a little hair band,

40:59

a black hair band and he's looking at it like,

41:02

"Oh my God, another weapons of mass destruction"

41:04

and he looks to the other guard, the senior guard

41:08

and said, "What do I do with this?"

41:10

And I say to him, "It's a hair band."

41:12

He says, "You can't carry this in, it's contraband."

41:14

I'm going, and I made the mistake

41:16

'cause I wasn't thinking, I think I grabbed it from him

41:18

'cause I was just gonna put it in my hair,

41:21

like, if I can't carry it in in my bag,

41:22

I'll just put it in my hair,

41:24

he says, "You can't take that in."

41:25

So, I take it out of my hair and I give it back to him,

41:27

I said, "But I have others in my hair."

41:29

And now he's confused, he's like,

41:32

so, at that point, there was a JAG officer

41:34

from the legal office there, he's looking over at her

41:37

as if, "Okay, what do I do?"

41:39

And I said, "Okay, I can take the rest of them out

41:42

of my hair, but then I'll be out of regulation

41:45

'cause my hair's gonna fall down below my collar,

41:48

so either I can be out of uniform

41:50

or I can keep the bands in my hair."

41:52

The JAG officer says to him,

41:54

"Ask her how many she has in her hair

41:56

and make sure she brings the same number

41:59

of hair bands out."

42:00

So, I look at her, I look at him

42:02

and he asked, "How many do you have in your hair?"

42:04

I don't know how many I have in my hair,

42:07

I wasn't counting my hair band that morning,

42:09

so I said, "About two or three."

42:11

So, he said, "Okay," so he writes two or three down.

42:13

That evening when I go out, they ask me,

42:15

"How many hair bands do you still have in your hair?"

42:18

I said, "About two or three,"

42:20

as if I'm gonna take a hair band out

42:22

and leave it with my client.

42:24

I don't know what he would do with it,

42:26

he doesn't have any hair, maybe tie up

42:27

the front of his beard with it, I don't know.

42:30

It was that type of nonsense that you dealt with

42:34

all the time.

42:37

So we would come back with different stories all the time

42:39

of whose story could be the last story?

42:40

Interviewer

So, can you take this further

42:45

as to do you finally get to a trial with Mohamed

42:47

or do you, is there something between your first visit

42:50

and the trial that you want to share?

42:53

-

Yes, after I met Mr. Mohamed,

42:55

I probably met with him about one or two other times

42:58

in preparation for a hearing in April 2006.

43:02

And prior to this April hearing,

43:06

Clive had brought to my attention

43:09

that he thought there was some ethical problems with the,

43:12

in which the way the Office of Military Commissions

43:16

was established because we had,

43:19

all the attorneys pretty much worked

43:22

in the same small office in D.C.,

43:24

at least six of the 10, if I have the numbers correct,

43:28

of the first 10 detainees they were gonna try

43:31

were named in each others' charge sheet

43:33

and on the way that the office was set up,

43:36

the chief defense attorney had a privilege

43:39

with each of the other 10 attorneys,

43:41

so we were trying to point out to individuals,

43:43

this is gonna cause ethical problems,

43:47

particularly for anyone who wants to cut a deal

43:49

with the government and they have to now testify

43:51

against anyone else, for all the attorneys to represent,

43:55

to be in the small same office,

43:57

will probably be a ethical conflict.

44:00

And so, we knew we had to raise a ethical,

44:03

the ethical issue in the office.

44:08

And so we had a hearing in April of 2006

44:13

and we knew this hearing was coming up

44:16

and one of the issues we were gonna raise

44:19

was the ethical concerns we had

44:21

with the way the Office of Military Commissions

44:24

was set up, the fact that all these individuals

44:26

were co-conspirators, or co-conspirators

44:28

in this big conspiracy, 'cause everyone was charged

44:32

with this conspiracy of being part of Al-Qaeda,

44:33

of knowing Bin Laden, knowing Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,

44:36

all being in the same safe house,

44:38

it was absolutely madness.

44:40

And meanwhile, you have attorneys in the office

44:42

because we're all learning the ropes of this, of talking.

44:44

So, and I feel bad because I was in the office

44:48

because once we identified the ethical issue,

44:51

I had to show that this was an actual conflict

44:53

because attorneys in the office

44:56

were talking about their clients,

44:57

what you talk about your client,

44:58

if it's gonna help my client,

45:00

I have to go in and talk to my client about "I know this."

45:01

I mean, it was gonna be a absolute nightmare.

45:04

And some attorneys talked a little bit more freer

45:07

than others about their clients.

45:09

I had one attorney come in and said,

45:11

and said to me, "I know your client is a bad guy

45:14

'cause my client already told me

45:16

your client's a bad guy, my client, you know,

45:18

he's a innocent individual,"

45:21

and I'm going, "Why are you sitting here telling me this?"

45:22

"Your client is particularly named

45:26

in my client's charge sheet and I know my client

45:27

is named in your client's charge sheet,

45:29

us having this conversation, we're probably crossing

45:31

all these ethical lines."

45:34

So, I was keeping a notebook of all these conversations

45:35

that were happening in the office

45:39

to establish later on at the hearing

45:41

how this potential ethical violations,

45:43

how anything I could say to the Chief Defense Counsel,

45:47

you know, he's representing, has a privilege

45:50

to all 10 of the other attorneys in the office,

45:53

this is gonna be a ethical nightmare

45:55

of a conflict of interest.

45:58

So when we go into the April 2006 hearing,

46:01

I had met Mr. Mohamed two or three times,

46:04

we told him about the ethical issue

46:07

and so it was one of the first things

46:10

I knew we would have to raise at the April 2006 hearing.

46:11

Now, that hearing was designed

46:15

not to hear my ethical issue,

46:17

it was really designed to, just to get his guilty plea

46:20

on the book, it was more of a pretrial type of hearing.

46:23

However, what end up happening was

46:29

at that April 2006 hearing, when I tried to raise

46:32

the ethical issue, the, I think they were called

46:36

presiding judges at the time,

46:41

I'm not sure if they were just called judges at the time

46:43

or presiding officer, I think they were called

46:46

presiding officer, the PO, I think,

46:47

is what they were known as, pretty much the judge,

46:50

when I tried to raise the ethical issue

46:55

in front of the judge, he just didn't want to hear it.

46:58

He was like, you know, "Major Bradley,"

47:02

I was a major at the time, he said,

47:04

"Major Bradley, I know you believe

47:07

you have a ethical violation,

47:09

but I'm not gonna really hear this issue at the time,"

47:12

'cause he believed it was more in my head

47:17

that there was a ethical violation

47:20

when I'm trying to say, "No, this is, like,

47:22

a motion, I'm letting you know

47:24

there's a ethical violation, a ethical problem

47:26

with the office and until this ethical situation

47:29

gets resolved, I don't think I can represent Mr. Mohamed."

47:32

And he clearly did not want to hear this.

47:35

So, as I said, that April hearing

47:39

was just to be let's get through the script,

47:40

which Clive was really surprised about

47:43

'cause there's actually script of what you say

47:45

or what the defense counsel says,

47:48

what the prosecution says, what the judge says,

47:50

and so, you're supposed to go line by line down this script.

47:52

And this isn't on the script that you've raised these issues

47:57

about there's a ethical concern

48:01

in the structure of the office.

48:04

So I think the judge did not want to hear it at the time

48:05

because all he wants to do is get the guilty plea

48:09

on the record and now you have counsel saying,

48:12

military counsel, by rules, detainee has to be represented

48:15

by military defense counsel and now you have

48:19

a military defense counsel saying,

48:22

"Hey, I'm not sure if he has counsel

48:24

because I'm not sure ethically

48:25

if I can represent this individual

48:27

'til we have a ruling on what I believe

48:29

is a ethical violation."

48:32

And the judge's response to that,

48:34

instead of saying, "Well let's hear your argument on it,"

48:36

he tells, he says, "Major Bradley, I'm giving you an order

48:41

that you will represent Mr. Mohamed."

48:44

And I'm saying, "I don't think you ordering me

48:47

is gonna resolve what may be an ethical concern

48:50

that I'm trying to raise with the court."

48:53

And he made it very clear, you know,

48:56

emphasizing my title, "Major, you understand what a order is

48:58

and you know you violate a order at your own peril."

49:03

Soon as I heard those words, I knew,

49:07

wow, he's just gonna force me on,

49:10

not based on ruling or anything,

49:13

but based on a military order from the bench,

49:16

we are in a courtroom, so if we're gonna run this

49:18

in a judicial fashion, you could say,

49:21

"You could find me in contempt of court

49:24

if you think I'm pushing the court too far

49:26

or you can make a ruling and rule against me,"

49:28

but to say you're just ordering me,

49:31

and he said, "I'm a colonel, you're a major"

49:35

type of thing, "You know what a order is,"

49:36

that's when I realize I'm between a rock and a hard place.

49:39

And at that point, you know, Clive wisely took a recess

49:43

and told the judge we need to discuss

49:49

what we're gonna do next.

49:51

Interviewer

Had you ever heard of a situation

49:53

where a judge will order a JAG or anybody else

49:54

in the courtroom in a, similar to what you just described?

49:58

-

I had never been in that type of situation,

50:02

I've never known, normally what would happen,

50:04

I mean, and I've done plenty of court marshals,

50:08

I've been in plenty of courtrooms,

50:10

normally, a judge would make a ruling

50:12

and they'll make negative rulings

50:13

and make sure they put negative facts

50:15

all over the record to cover themselves,

50:16

and from a judicial point and from a litigation point,

50:19

to make sure that they make a ruling

50:24

and then once you have the ruling,

50:26

you know, you press on.

50:27

Now you have a issue for appeal

50:29

if you think the ruling is wrong.

50:32

But the fact was I was surprised

50:34

because he wasn't even making a ruling,

50:36

he pretty much said, "I know you think

50:38

you have a ethical issue, but we're pressing on

50:41

and we're pressing on by me ordering you to press on

50:44

versus making a ruling."

50:47

Now, I would've understood very well

50:49

if the judge had said to me,

50:51

"Okay, I read your motion, I'm denying your motion

50:53

and you will represent Mr. Mohamed

50:58

'cause I don't think there's a ethical issue here,"

51:00

that'd have been a different story,

51:03

but that's not what happened here.

51:04

What happened was he did not want to hear the ethical issue

51:07

and I had a 20 page opinion from the top ethics professor

51:11

in Pennsylvania.

51:17

My bar was beautiful, my bar,

51:18

when I went to my Bar Association about this issue,

51:21

they were the one who told me I needed

51:23

to get a expert on opinion, which I did,

51:25

I actually initially paid for the expert

51:31

out of my own pocket, but I thought that was important

51:32

for us to go in there at least prepared

51:36

with an opinion, with a 20 page opinion

51:39

stating all the problems in the structure

51:41

of the Office of Military Commissions defense

51:44

with these co-conspirators being represented

51:47

by these 10 attorneys all working,

51:49

most of them working in the same office,

51:52

all working for the same boss

51:54

who had privileges with each of these attorneys

51:56

and each, most of these individuals

51:57

being specifically named in each others' charge sheet.

52:00

So it was very clear, I think, there was a ethical issue,

52:05

I don't think they wanted to do with it

52:08

and the way for them to deal with it

52:09

was to ignore it and just, as attorneys,

52:11

think we're soldiers, yes, sir, salute

52:15

and march to whatever that you stated.

52:18

Interviewer

Is his order in the record?

52:21

Will that be recorded that he gives you an order?

52:23

-

Yes, it's all in the record.

52:26

I go back and I read that transcript now

52:28

and part of me wanted to laugh,

52:29

part of me wants to cry, it's almost comical

52:31

that the whole transcript of what happened

52:35

on that hearing on the sixth of April.

52:38

Interviewer

Can someone appeal an order like that?

52:40

-

It could possibly be a interlocutory appeal

52:45

and I don't think the system at Guantanamo

52:48

was set up to even, at the time when they had

52:50

the first hearings, they didn't even a appellate,

52:53

they had a appellate process sort of written in policy,

52:57

but there was no one sitting on any appellate board

53:01

at the time 'cause I don't think they had even bothered

53:04

to set up in the actual individuals who were appointed

53:07

in the appellate system, so it would've caused

53:13

all sorts of havoc if they allowed us

53:15

to take a interlocutory appeal on the issue.

53:18

Interviewer

Okay, well let's go then

53:23

forward when you took a break with Clive,

53:24

what happened there?

53:28

-

Well, once I realized that the judge was giving me

53:29

a order and the way that he stated that, you know,

53:31

I would violate the order at my own peril,

53:35

Clive, as I said, wisely realized what was going on,

53:38

that this was about to be a railroad,

53:41

that we needed to take a recess.

53:44

So he asked the court for a recess

53:47

and during that recess, I think that we asked for, like,

53:51

a 15 minute recess, and I didn't realize how quickly

53:55

15 minutes could go and it was pretty much madness

54:00

as to what was gonna happen next.

54:03

We pulled both the Pennsylvania rules of responsibility,

54:07

we pulled the Air Force rules

54:11

and we're looking at the rules

54:13

to be able to present to the judge

54:16

that this was a conflict, if you look at

54:18

the professional rules, both for the state

54:22

and the Air Force, there was a conflict here

54:24

and I had to follow the Pennsylvania rules

54:28

because I was a Pennsylvania attorney.

54:30

But that, as I said, that, those 15 minutes

54:32

went really quick and then, I think it was Clive

54:34

who suggested, "You might have to go in there

54:37

and raise your Fifth Amendment rights

54:39

if he's gonna force you on and you think

54:42

there's a ethical problem,"

54:44

because at this time you're in the heat of the battle,

54:46

this isn't going the way I thought it would go,

54:49

I thought the judge would at least take it

54:51

under advisement, give me a ruling,

54:53

I realized that's not the way it's going,

54:55

we have 15 minutes to try to resolve what's gonna happen,

54:57

and I think bottom line was if he pressed on

55:01

to say that I would have represent Mr. Mohamed,

55:06

I felt that it was truly a ethical concern,

55:08

that I was violating my state bar's ethical rules,

55:12

I would have to go in there and plead the Fifth Amendment.

55:16

We call them Article 31s in the military,

55:19

but I think I went in as just,

55:22

we would have to plead the Fifth Amendment

55:25

because I knew individual would understand

55:26

what the Fifth Amendment was,

55:29

people wouldn't understand what Article 31 rights are,

55:30

which are the same as the Fifth Amendment in the military.

55:34

So when we come back from the recess,

55:37

the judge comes back and he starts asking me questions

55:41

and I tell him, I state to him initially,

55:44

you know, I do not represent Mr. Mohamed,

55:47

the ethical rule and the ethical concern I raised

55:49

has not been ruled upon, so if the judge is gonna ask,

55:53

if this court's gonna ask me any other questions,

55:57

I'll have to raise my Fifth Amendment rights.

56:00

And I think you could hear, probably, in the audience

56:02

a gasp, like (gasp), counsel raised

56:06

her Fifth Amendment rights in a court.

56:09

And I think it through the judge off

56:11

because he looked at me and he said,

56:14

"Major Bradley, I think you're misunderstanding

56:16

the use of the Fifth Amendment"

56:18

and I'm like, "No, I understand the use very well

56:19

because I'm not gonna commit what I think

56:22

is ethical violation of representing my client

56:26

when you have not ruled," I didn't say this to him,

56:29

but that's what I'm thinking,

56:31

"When you have not ruled on my,

56:32

on the issue, on the motion."

56:35

So, he continues to proceed with the hearing.

56:38

And now he's proceeding with the hearing

56:41

with me raising my Fifth Amendment rights,

56:43

with Clive and Joe Margulies, who were co-counsel

56:47

on the case at the time, they weren't counsel

56:51

because they had been established earlier,

56:53

they were just representing him as legal advisors,

56:56

but they were not his attorneys,

56:58

nor did they have to be his attorneys,

57:01

he could have legal advisors without having attorneys

57:02

because the rules only require military defense counsels,

57:05

so the only defense counsel Binyam had

57:09

in the courtroom that day was myself.

57:11

So as soon as I raised my Fifth Amendment rights,

57:14

Binyam was without counsel, which I don't think

57:17

the judge realized when he continued on.

57:19

He continued on with the trial,

57:23

he continued on with this script,

57:24

so he and the prosecution are going back and forth

57:26

with their script, reading their script

57:29

and every time they would come

57:30

to where defense counsel, they had to ask

57:32

the defense counsel, I would remind the court,

57:33

I said, "I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights,

57:36

I'm not answering any questions,"

57:39

and he would just skip on with that part of the script

57:40

and he and the defense, the prosecutor would go back

57:43

and read their part of the script

57:45

and they would finally get to the part

57:47

where Binyam has to plea.

57:49

And I'm looking at him like,

57:51

"How are you gonna accept a plea

57:52

when the individual is without counsel?"

57:56

And Clive's trying to, you know,

57:59

be diplomatic and remind the court,

58:03

"Binyam's without counsel, you know,

58:06

there's no way you can really take his plea,

58:08

he's without counsel."

58:11

They ignored Clive's very diplomatic way of trying to,

58:13

you know, get the court to recognize

58:17

you are going down a slippery slope here

58:18

of forcing this individual to take a plea

58:21

when there's no counsel representing him in the room.

58:24

But, I mean, they pushed through with it.

58:27

I mean, Binyam's, poor Binyam's sitting there

58:30

thinking, "What is this nonsense?"

58:33

"I don't have an attorney?"

58:37

"This one's pleading the fifth,

58:39

these two, you know, are only legal advisors,

58:40

I don't even want them at the table,"

58:43

which the judge forced them at the table,

58:44

I'll have to tell you about that, as well.

58:47

But, they end up taking a not guilty plea

58:50

because no one, at this point,

58:56

no one's representing Binyam, Binyam's not talking,

58:58

I'm not talking, I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights

59:01

every time the judge asks me a question

59:05

and it was just absolute madness and.

59:08

Interviewer

What were you thinking?

59:11

-

I'm thinking, at this point, I'm thinking,

59:12

"How are you even proceeding with this

59:15

when he doesn't have counsel?"

59:19

I'm thinking, "Okay," and I could feel the judge

59:20

getting more upset as this was going on

59:24

because I'm not quite sure if he, again,

59:28

pressed upon me his order, but at some point

59:31

he must've said something again about

59:34

he was really ordering me to represent Mr. Mohamed

59:36

and the only thing I was pretty much saying at that point

59:40

was, "I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights,"

59:42

and I think there was, at one point,

59:45

where he said to me, he said,

59:47

"Well, you told me you were gonna represent Mr. Mohamed, "

59:48

and I said, "Your Honor, that's not what I said,"

59:51

I said, "But you can go back in the transcript,

59:54

I told you that I would speak on his behalf if necessary,

59:56

but that Mr. Mohamed wanted to do a lot of,

1:00:00

really wanted to represent himself,"

1:00:03

and we went through that whole issue

1:00:04

about him representing himself.

1:00:06

So I made it very clear, "I never told you

1:00:07

I was representing Mr. Mohamed

1:00:10

because we had this ethical issue."

1:00:11

"I said I would answer some questions on his behalf,

1:00:13

but I do not represent him."

1:00:15

And I think that was the only kind of dialogue we had

1:00:18

after the break, other than me saying,

1:00:22

"I'm raising my Fifth Amendment rights."

1:00:25

Interviewer

What happened then

1:00:29

at the end of the hearing?

1:00:30

-

Well, what happened at some point

1:00:30

is that I could tell the judge was getting upset

1:00:35

and, from what I can recall, and he needed to take a recess

1:00:40

and he said he was gonna take a 15 minute recess,

1:00:46

and I figured at that point, what was gonna happen

1:00:48

was that he was gonna go back and charge,

1:00:52

and write up charges against me, at least,

1:00:56

we have this mechanism in the military

1:00:57

we call Article 15, it's a non-traditional punishment

1:01:00

where you can have charges written up for you,

1:01:04

it's just short of a court marshal.

1:01:05

I'm thinking in my mind he's probably

1:01:07

gonna give me a Article 15, a non-traditional punishment

1:01:10

of some nature and draft up charges,

1:01:12

I'm thinking that's what he's gonna do

1:01:14

in those 15 minutes.

1:01:16

So, when he took this abrupt recess,

1:01:18

I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm gonna have charges up,

1:01:21

written up against me."

1:01:24

I'm not thinking court marshal,

1:01:25

I'm thinking he's gonna do something more quick

1:01:26

and, you know, Article 15 isn't as quick,

1:01:28

it's not as formal as a court marshal.

1:01:30

During that recess, I can hear members of the press

1:01:34

thinking, "Oh my God, this JAG's gonna get,"

1:01:38

they really thought I was gonna get locked up,

1:01:40

they thought that the NP's were gonna come,

1:01:43

lock me up, take me away 'cause I was violating

1:01:46

the judge order, I'm thinking,

1:01:48

"I'm not violating his order,

1:01:50

I'm just trying to represent my client,

1:01:51

I'm trying not to violate any ethical principles,

1:01:54

I'm trying to do what is right

1:01:57

and people believe that I'm gonna get locked up."

1:01:59

But I really thought, "Yes, they're probably gonna draft

1:02:04

some charges of some nature,"

1:02:08

and I knew for me, this wasn't the best thing for me

1:02:09

because I was gonna be meeting a promotion board

1:02:13

in the next month and the last thing I needed

1:02:17

in front of the promotion board,

1:02:18

the fact that I had charges, you know,

1:02:20

draft up against me or I had a Article 15 on the record

1:02:22

just before I was gonna get promoted,

1:02:25

which meant I wasn't gonna get promoted.

1:02:28

But I really thought charges of some nature

1:02:31

were gonna be drafted up against me.

1:02:34

And that 15 minutes ended up being two hours.

1:02:37

And I later found out afterwards, what happened

1:02:42

was that the Pentagon was listening in at some point

1:02:47

or I don't know if someone called back the Pentagon,

1:02:51

but I think part of the rumor was that

1:02:53

the Pentagon was listening in real time,

1:02:57

understood there was this conflict

1:03:00

and the last thing they wanted

1:03:03

was these hearings that they're trying to make legitimate

1:03:05

and seem like the real courts,

1:03:09

that their JAG was being either charged or locked up

1:03:11

or be thrown away in a brig for standing

1:03:16

on some ethical principles that she was asking the court

1:03:18

to try to resolve.

1:03:21

So, when the judge came in two hours later,

1:03:23

the first thing I thought he was gonna tell me,

1:03:26

"Major Bradley, stand up," I thought he was gonna

1:03:28

bring formal charges against me,

1:03:30

but he sits there, almost 180 degree change in demeanor,

1:03:32

saying, "Major Bradley, it seems to me

1:03:37

that you really believe there's,

1:03:39

you have a ethical violation and I'm gonna allow you time

1:03:40

to properly present this issue before the court."

1:03:43

And the first thing I'm thinking,

1:03:47

"Why couldn't we done this four hours ago

1:03:48

when I first brought the issue to you?"

1:03:51

"We have to go through this whole chaotic conflict

1:03:53

in open court of you pretty much ordering me

1:03:58

and trying to force me to committing

1:04:02

what I think is a ethical violation

1:04:04

where we could've said, 'Well, I need you

1:04:06

to raise it properly, I'll give you time

1:04:08

to bring in your witnesses to hear this issue,'"

1:04:09

but he sits there and says, "You know, we'll set the hearing

1:04:12

at some time in June of coming in,

1:04:15

providing me with evidence that you believe

1:04:18

that there's a ethical violation with the structure

1:04:21

of the Office of the Military Commissions."

1:04:24

And it was just, he was absolutely reasonable.

1:04:26

From before where he's ordering me and he's mad

1:04:29

and he's trying to force me to move on

1:04:33

without making a ruling, he now comes back

1:04:36

with calmness, with reasonableness,

1:04:40

with logic, you know, legal logic,

1:04:42

saying, "Hey, let's have this hearing."

1:04:46

I end up finding out that,

1:04:49

and I didn't see this at the time,

1:04:54

just before he took a recess that the bailiff came up to him

1:04:57

and handed him a note and allegedly on that note

1:05:01

was instructions telling him,

1:05:03

"Calm this down, take a recess

1:05:07

and let's kind of resolve this

1:05:10

before this gets any further out of hand."

1:05:14

And also, I didn't realize the extent of it

1:05:19

until I was talking to one of the PA people,

1:05:21

I think, for the Pentagon, who told me

1:05:25

that he had went out during the hearing

1:05:27

and called back the Pentagon and then said to the Pentagon

1:05:30

that one of your JAGS is about to get arrested here

1:05:33

in Guantanamo.

1:05:36

So everyone in the press court,

1:05:37

including the PA person for the Pentagon,

1:05:40

really thought that I was gonna get handcuffed out of there

1:05:43

and arrested because the hearing the entire day

1:05:46

with the judge was extremely, extremely tense.

1:05:50

We argued about everything.

1:05:54

We argued about Binyam's clothing

1:05:55

'cause Binyam came in in orange

1:06:00

because he wanted to come in in orange

1:06:02

because it represented how he had been held

1:06:05

for like five years at Guantanamo Bay.

1:06:08

Because they really expected him to come in

1:06:10

dressed in a suit and a tie

1:06:12

and play this whole theatrical game with them

1:06:14

and Binyam was like, "No, you've held me in chains in orange

1:06:17

for years, so when I first make my appearance

1:06:21

in the world, pretty much, I want to come in

1:06:24

dressed as they have kept me in five years."

1:06:27

Now, so when Binyam came in with orange,

1:06:31

Binyam also asked to come in shackled,

1:06:33

he said, "You have shackled me for the last four years,

1:06:35

so when I present myself to the world,

1:06:37

I don't want to play this theatrical game

1:06:39

of I'm coming in with a suit and tie,

1:06:41

I want to come in as I have been kept

1:06:43

for four or five years."

1:06:46

So, we had made the request for him to be shackled,

1:06:47

of course, that wasn't gonna happen.

1:06:50

They were appalled that I even asked the question.

1:06:52

But I put on the record, "My client wants to come in here

1:06:54

dressed in orange and shackled."

1:06:56

So, he had on a orange shirt and we were in court

1:06:59

for at least two hours before the judge

1:07:02

asked me if I have read the rules on the dress code

1:07:06

for the court and I was like, "Yes, I have,"

1:07:12

and he wanted to know why would I allow my client

1:07:17

to come in in orange.

1:07:19

I said, "Well, there's nothing in the rules

1:07:21

that say he can't wear orange."

1:07:23

He said, "Well, now, you realize what orange means,"

1:07:24

and I was like, "Okay, what color

1:07:27

do you want him to come in?"

1:07:29

I said, "Can he come in brown because,"

1:07:31

he said, "Well, orange is the color the detainees wear."

1:07:34

I said, "Well, they also wear brown,

1:07:37

they also wear white, so are you saying

1:07:39

that he can't come in brown, orange or white?"

1:07:40

"Because that's not in the rules."

1:07:43

And that's where I think at one point

1:07:45

Binyam spoke up and said, "Well, yeah,

1:07:46

that's not in the rules, I mean, so,

1:07:48

why can't I wear this?"

1:07:50

"Now, is that a new policy?"

1:07:51

POMs, they used to call them POMs,

1:07:53

Presiding Officers Memorandums,

1:07:55

so he said, "Is that a new POM that we're now creating

1:07:57

that detainees can't come into court in orange,

1:08:00

brown or white?"

1:08:04

I mean, we fought over everything.

1:08:06

There was one point where the judge said to me,

1:08:09

he goes, something to the effect,

1:08:11

"Is there something that's amusing you?"

1:08:15

And I didn't know he was talking to me.

1:08:17

He said, "Is there something amusing you?"

1:08:21

And I almost turned around and looked behind me

1:08:21

to see who he was talking to,

1:08:23

but he was directing the question at me,

1:08:25

and I was like, "No," and he said,

1:08:26

"Well, why do you have that smirk on your face?"

1:08:29

Now, I didn't realize I had a smirk on my face.

1:08:31

I guess a part of me, I was probably standing there

1:08:33

in bewilderment that this whole hearing was happening

1:08:36

the way it was occurring, it was just Alice in Wonderland.

1:08:39

Interviewer

So can you tell us then,

1:08:44

after the hearing ended and the judge, you know,

1:08:46

made 180 degree change, what happened after that?

1:08:50

-

Well, once he made that 180 degree change

1:08:53

and he came in and said that he was gonna have us,

1:08:56

allow the hearing, it was such a relief

1:09:02

off my shoulder because I realized,

1:09:06

"Okay, I'm not gonna get charges,

1:09:09

he's actually gonna let us to put on a hearing,"

1:09:11

it was almost anticlimactic because all day

1:09:13

it was just this level of elevated tension in the courtroom

1:09:17

and when he came in it was almost like

1:09:21

letting a vail out of-

1:09:23

Interviewer

Did you go to the hearing then?

1:09:26

-

Well, no, well, the hearing was set in June

1:09:28

and was set for a Monday in June.

1:09:32

Interviewer

That was because of the suicides,

1:09:34

it was postponed.

1:09:37

-

Correct, because of the suicides, it was postponed,

1:09:37

that weekend the suicides occurred

1:09:39

and the hearing was postponed.

1:09:43

Interviewer

And was it ever held?

1:09:47

-

It was never held because after that

1:09:48

was the Hamdan decision out of the Supreme Court

1:09:49

that had ruled the, unconstitutional,

1:09:53

the first set of commission hearings,

1:09:56

so they had to revamp after that.

1:09:58

Now, Mr. Mohamed was charged again

1:10:02

under the new set of military commission statute

1:10:04

that occurred in, I guess it was in October

1:10:08

or later that year in '06 after

1:10:12

the first set of commissions was ruled unconstitutional,

1:10:14

he got charged again, but that kind of reset

1:10:17

the calendar, so to speak, and we said

1:10:20

the whole proceedings, that anything that happened

1:10:24

prior to that was pretty much null and void

1:10:26

to a large extent.

1:10:29

Interviewer

And then you continued to represent him

1:10:31

until he was released?

1:10:32

-

I did and that was a decision that I had made

1:10:34

and I thought representing him

1:10:40

was in the best interest of Mr. Mohamed.

1:10:40

And I had several concerns because the other thing I saw

1:10:42

with the commissions, there were a lot of attorneys

1:10:46

jumping in and out.

1:10:48

Originally, the way the attorneys would come in,

1:10:49

they only had a one year commitment,

1:10:52

which I thought is totally insane

1:10:53

because it would take at least a year

1:10:56

to try to get involved in this case

1:10:58

to try to establish a rapport with the client.

1:11:01

And so, I thought it was important for Mr. Mohamed

1:11:04

that I try to be at least consistent,

1:11:08

he has consistent counsel throughout.

1:11:10

So, I made a obligation to myself,

1:11:12

even though it wasn't required by the military,

1:11:14

that I would try to represent him 'til the end

1:11:16

or until they told me that they were gonna put new counsel

1:11:19

on the case, so I continued to represent him.

1:11:22

And I also knew with Mr. Mohamed,

1:11:26

I felt that as difficult as it was

1:11:27

for me to establish any rapport with him,

1:11:30

and it took me months, if not years, to do so,

1:11:32

that if another attorney walked in there

1:11:35

and tried to establish the rapport,

1:11:38

it probably wouldn't have been there

1:11:40

or it would've taken a long time.

1:11:41

So, I just felt my own sense of obligation

1:11:43

in making sure that he tried to have one counsel throughout.

1:11:47

Interviewer

And so you stayed with him

1:11:53

until he was released at the end.

1:11:53

-

He was finally released in February 2009.

1:11:56

Interviewer

And do you feel you developed

1:12:00

a rapport with him by the time he left?

1:12:03

-

That's a really good question.

1:12:06

I would say yes because to a certain extent,

1:12:08

I think I was, I wouldn't say we were friends,

1:12:11

I think I was the only lifeline, consistent lifeline,

1:12:13

along with Clive, that he had,

1:12:17

but really, how do you establish a relationship

1:12:20

with someone who had been through

1:12:25

what Mr. Mohamed had been through?

1:12:27

I mean, psychologically, emotionally,

1:12:28

it's, I think I established as close of a relationship

1:12:31

as I could with him that I could allow

1:12:36

under such tremendous and chaotic situation.

1:12:39

And I don't really, in my opinion,

1:12:44

think it was really possible for anyone,

1:12:47

particularly in the military,

1:12:50

to establish an attorney-client relationship

1:12:51

with the individuals given the environment,

1:12:53

given the situation in which these individuals are held.

1:12:57

And I find, even in the best of times,

1:13:02

even in the real world, 'cause I believe,

1:13:07

I would call Guantanamo the Twilight Zone

1:13:10

because that's really what it operated in,

1:13:13

but even as a defense attorney,

1:13:15

at some point, you're able to establish a relationship,

1:13:17

sometimes you do, sometimes you don't,

1:13:20

but there's other mechanisms that help establish

1:13:22

that relationship with you and your client.

1:13:24

Such as, they can read about attorney

1:13:26

or read about who you are, either from families or friends

1:13:29

or from other attorneys or they have some kind of touch

1:13:31

with the media, some outside sources

1:13:34

to help them to kind of put things in perspective.

1:13:37

In Guantanamo, they didn't have that.

1:13:40

So, Binyam could never know about me.

1:13:42

For all he knew and many of these detainees knew,

1:13:45

every time we went down there,

1:13:49

this all could've been part of the same plot

1:13:50

of what got them arrested or picked up in the first place

1:13:52

and the game playing that always happened

1:13:56

and it was never any way to check

1:13:59

whether you were still in some kind of fantasy world,

1:14:01

the CIA or the FBI or the DOD,

1:14:04

or whether individuals were really representing

1:14:07

your best interest and it was never any other means

1:14:09

of trying to put that in perspective.

1:14:12

And that's what, the thing that always drove me crazy

1:14:15

with Guantanamo, among other things,

1:14:18

was there was never any true way

1:14:20

to establish an attorney-client relationship

1:14:22

because it was such a, I don't know how to describe

1:14:25

the environment, but it was such a toxic environment

1:14:28

that you had no other support.

1:14:32

You didn't have family support.

1:14:34

All those other things that I realized

1:14:35

'cause I had to reflect on this,

1:14:37

where my other clients who I represent

1:14:38

can have some kind of outlet of trying to check,

1:14:40

fact checked or get some kind of support

1:14:43

of, you know, do I trust this person or not,

1:14:45

is what this person's telling me true or not,

1:14:48

what is the law?

1:14:50

You had none of that.

1:14:51

Because there was no law in Guantanamo.

1:14:52

They were making up charges as they went,

1:14:54

they were making up policies as they went,

1:14:56

they were making up POMs as they went,

1:14:58

things were never the same.

1:15:00

And so when you have that constant chaotic environment,

1:15:02

how do you establish an attorney relation,

1:15:06

client relationship?

1:15:08

You don't.

1:15:09

And I think they use that to the,

1:15:10

I don't think it was necessarily by design,

1:15:12

but it got established and through that,

1:15:14

they expect us to really to try these individuals

1:15:18

and give them full and fair hearings?

1:15:21

I mean, it was, it was chaotic.

1:15:23

So no, I don't think, to a certain extent,

1:15:26

as much as I think I could establish

1:15:28

a relationship and a rapport with Mr. Mohamed,

1:15:32

I think we achieved it, but to do it

1:15:35

in a effective true way, I don't think

1:15:37

it could ever be done.

1:15:40

Interviewer

It couldn't be done by anyone?

1:15:41

-

I think it's difficult to have it really,

1:15:44

I think more and more it could probably be done

1:15:47

because I think the more they open up

1:15:51

and allow detainees to understand

1:15:52

really what's happening on the outside world

1:15:55

and have more family support and those type of things,

1:15:58

I think it will be easier to be done,

1:16:02

but I don't think it truly can be done,

1:16:04

given the environment because Guantanamo Bay

1:16:07

is still in its Twilight, Twilight Zone operations.

1:16:11

Interviewer

So, looking back, do you have some sense on

1:16:16

what happened the last nine years

1:16:21

about the rule of law in justice?

1:16:22

-

Well, I put it this way, I look at the rule of law

1:16:27

at Guantanamo and it has changed

1:16:32

and it allegedly changed for the better,

1:16:35

but I don't think the rule of law changed,

1:16:37

I think it's the package has changed

1:16:39

because I think when we went to the military commissions

1:16:41

the first time, there were no rule of law,

1:16:45

I mean, there was no sense of justice,

1:16:48

but they figure if they keep using the mantra,

1:16:51

full and fair justice, we're giving these guys courts,

1:16:54

that people will believe it.

1:16:57

And even in '06 when the new Military Commission Act

1:16:59

came in in '06, it was pretty much the same rules,

1:17:03

but it was just in a different package

1:17:07

and when you opened it up and you read it,

1:17:08

it's like, "I read this before, it's the same thing

1:17:10

we did before, but you just, I think you put a new package

1:17:13

and said it's the Military Commission Acts of '06

1:17:16

and tweaked it here, I'm just supposed to believe

1:17:18

that these things are really gonna be full and fair,

1:17:21

they're not, it's pretty much the same rules."

1:17:23

And I find that even today, it's new rules,

1:17:26

but the package has changed, you open it up

1:17:29

and it's the, you tweak it a little bit,

1:17:32

but it's the same nonsense and that's just my opinion.

1:17:34

I don't think, and it's, right now,

1:17:38

we're so far down the, this is so chaotic,

1:17:40

it's so messed up, even if you tried to start it

1:17:43

from the beginning, you can't.

1:17:45

And I think they used the same basic recipe

1:17:47

and either add something or subtract something,

1:17:51

but in the end, you get the same results,

1:17:54

it's the definition of insanity.

1:17:56

You know, you do the same thing over and over again

1:17:57

and expect different results,

1:17:59

you're not gonna get any different results in Guantanamo.

1:18:01

The rule of law has been so broken,

1:18:04

it was never really practiced down there

1:18:06

and I don't think it's been practiced,

1:18:08

I think, I probably shouldn't say this,

1:18:10

but I'm gonna say it, I think the Omar Carter case

1:18:13

was just travesty of justice.

1:18:15

I'm glad for Omar that he took what was the best deal,

1:18:17

but I think if you put that case in a real court

1:18:20

with real rules that you don't get the result

1:18:24

that you got.

1:18:29

And I think that's an example of how I think

1:18:31

this alleged rule of law in Guantanamo Bay is a farce.

1:18:33

Interviewer

So, as a lawyer for 20 years

1:18:38

before you went to Guantanamo, are you disappointed

1:18:39

in the legal system and do you think it's gonna get better?

1:18:43

-

I'm disappointed in Guantanamo, I'm not,

1:18:46

as far as the JAGs, I've been very proud

1:18:49

of my JAG brothers and sisters

1:18:52

because I see on both sides, both prosecutors and defense

1:18:54

have tried to stand by the rule of law.

1:18:59

And you have a situation where you've had prosecutors quit

1:19:02

their posts because they realize the injustice.

1:19:07

Now, you may have one prosecutor

1:19:11

and you might say, you can look at the individual

1:19:13

and say, well, maybe he had some personal issues,

1:19:16

but when you have the second one

1:19:18

and you have the third one, you have the fourth one,

1:19:19

you have the chief prosecutor,

1:19:23

you have another one who's one of the top prosecutors

1:19:25

who's handling five or six of your top cases,

1:19:28

when you have them all quit during different periods of time

1:19:31

and they all, once they quit the office or resign,

1:19:34

criticize the system, what more do you need?

1:19:39

And we're not talking about some crazy defense attorneys,

1:19:42

and even the defense attorneys,

1:19:46

you're talking about in the military,

1:19:48

you're talking about a relatively conservative number

1:19:49

of individuals who probably supported

1:19:52

the prior administration, the Bush Administration,

1:19:54

so you're not talking about

1:19:56

some left wing liberal radical from the '60 type of people,

1:19:57

which I think they thought some of the maybe

1:20:02

the civilian defense attorneys were,

1:20:03

you're talking about military defense attorneys

1:20:05

who are officers who have problems.

1:20:08

But when you're talking about the prosecutors

1:20:11

and you're talking about people that you trust

1:20:13

to represent these individuals,

1:20:16

and many of them came in there gung-ho thinking,

1:20:18

"Okay, we're gonna put some terrorists away,

1:20:19

we're gonna do it fairly, we're gonna get our fair trials,"

1:20:21

when you have those individuals quit one after another

1:20:24

over a period of years, the system is broken,

1:20:27

there is a problem and I don't think you can say it

1:20:31

any louder and any clearer when you have that,

1:20:33

when you have prosecutors, more than one,

1:20:36

a good half dozen, leaving.

1:20:40

And they are the ones who spoke up,

1:20:43

so you know if you have that many people speaking up,

1:20:45

you probably have many individuals

1:20:47

just going through and saying, "I can't wait

1:20:49

'til I get out of this office,

1:20:51

I just want to get this done with

1:20:53

so I can put this behind," so you probably have other people

1:20:55

behind the curtain, underneath the surface

1:20:57

who probably felt the same way, but just didn't speak up.

1:21:00

That should be a loud enough bell for America to wake up

1:21:03

and say, "Wow, what is happening at Guantanamo

1:21:08

that you would have prosecutors, you know, leave

1:21:11

in the numbers that they have left?"

1:21:14

Interviewer

Do you think Obama has noticed?

1:21:16

-

I don't think anyone has noticed.

1:21:18

I think everyone still wants to push through this

1:21:20

and I don't understand why.

1:21:25

I mean, and I think you had the JAG community, in general,

1:21:27

having real concerns with how these commissions were done.

1:21:30

I think a lot of this was probably done

1:21:34

without the consent of the JAGs

1:21:35

'cause we're horrified by it because we believe in

1:21:38

the rule of law, we abide by it.

1:21:42

And one of the things I missed

1:21:45

when I went and worked in the civilian world

1:21:46

was working in the JAG community

1:21:48

where I called gentlemen law,

1:21:50

where you got the evidence where,

1:21:51

you know, I had to worry about, you know,

1:21:54

what was being hidden and what was gonna come out in court.

1:21:56

Pretty much, you ran the courtroom

1:21:59

the way I think law should be run,

1:22:01

open, honest and fair.

1:22:03

I mean, it wasn't perfect, nothing's perfect

1:22:05

and when I got into the civilian world,

1:22:08

I was like, "What, you didn't turn over evidence?"

1:22:09

You know, "You got dirty cops?"

1:22:12

"What is this?"

1:22:13

You know, you're not used to that.

1:22:14

So I think we pride ourselves.

1:22:16

And then many people think, you know,

1:22:18

military law is kangaroo law

1:22:20

and it's the same thing as military intelligence,

1:22:23

you know, you hear the joke, but it's law,

1:22:25

I respect it, I was proud of, once I got out,

1:22:27

I went back in, I'm still proud of the JAG Corps,

1:22:30

I'm still proud, particularly,

1:22:34

there's prosecutors who stepped out

1:22:35

and did what they need to do

1:22:38

because I think they were probably the ones

1:22:39

who were probably hung out to dry

1:22:41

more than anyone else.

1:22:42

I had at least some cover because I was defense counsel,

1:22:44

so I could speak out about the injustices.

1:22:47

They, on the other hand, were supposed to support this,

1:22:50

but they realized that they had a higher ethical duty

1:22:52

to support the constitution, to support due process

1:22:55

and I'm very proud of them for standing out

1:22:58

because I know it's more difficult for them

1:23:01

to take that stand, particularly if you're career military

1:23:04

that you're putting your career on the line

1:23:08

to do what is right and that's not always

1:23:09

the easiest thing for individuals to do.

1:23:11

Interviewer

Thanks for the inspiring.

1:23:16

Is there something, Lou, do you have something?

1:23:17

Lou

Do you have any relationship

1:23:21

with Mr. Mohamed at this point?

1:23:22

-

No, I haven't seen Mr. Mohamed in some time.

1:23:25

And we were, after he got out, we kind of stayed in touch

1:23:30

and I think it's hard for him.

1:23:33

I mean, the thing that I just, really hurts me so much

1:23:34

is I don't think this man's life will ever be the same.

1:23:38

I mean, there's no way his life,

1:23:41

from what, the torture, the abuse that he went through.

1:23:42

And I know there was a settlement just recently

1:23:46

in Britain, in the UK, for the UK residents

1:23:48

and UK citizens, but there's not enough money in the world,

1:23:54

I mean, I don't know what the ultimate settlement amount is,

1:23:58

but there's not enough money in the world

1:24:00

that I think will ever make him whole

1:24:02

and I don't think it's even possible.

1:24:05

So, my heart goes out to him because I don't think his life

1:24:07

will ever be the same again, given what he has gone through.

1:24:14

But I'll tell you a touching story

1:24:20

that I really liked and it just tells you

1:24:21

the power of the human spirit

1:24:25

of how two people who are supposed to be enemies,

1:24:27

I'm the soldier, he's the alleged terrorist,

1:24:30

how, you know, the world could just

1:24:33

could take a 160 in the humanity of things.

1:24:34

There was one time I visited Mr. Mohamed

1:24:38

and he was on a hunger strike

1:24:40

and during this hunger strike,

1:24:42

I hate to see this, so I would always bring him food

1:24:45

or Clive would always bring him food

1:24:47

and try to persuade him to eat while we was there.

1:24:48

But he was on this hunger strike

1:24:52

and all he's talking about is food.

1:24:53

Now, I'm trying not to talk about food

1:24:55

just because I think that's cruel

1:24:57

to a person on a hunger strike, to talk about food,

1:24:59

but he's talking about food and he tells me

1:25:01

that the best dish that he makes

1:25:03

is a spaghetti and pasta dish

1:25:05

and he's telling me that, you know,

1:25:07

he cooks the best spaghetti and he's just going on,

1:25:09

I'm like, "Binyam, why are you talking about food?"

1:25:12

"You're on a hunger strike."

1:25:14

And he said, you know, he says,

1:25:16

"If I ever get out of here, I'll make you

1:25:17

a spaghetti dinner," and I don't know what this was,

1:25:18

this was way before he got out,

1:25:21

but I was like, "Okay," I said,

1:25:23

"Binyam we're gonna get you out of here one day,

1:25:25

but I'm gonna hold you to that."

1:25:26

I said, "You know what, you haven't paid me anything,

1:25:27

but your payment to me will be a spaghetti dinner

1:25:29

when you get out of Guantanamo."

1:25:31

He gets out of Guantanamo in February of 2009

1:25:34

and, I think it was in February, I think I was still there,

1:25:37

no, I think I went back in July,

1:25:42

so he gets out in February, I go back in July of 2009

1:25:45

and I run into Binyam, we're talking-

1:25:50

Interviewer

You went back to London?

1:25:53

-

I would go back to London.

1:25:54

So he gets out in February of 2009,

1:25:55

I go and visit him, I'd go back to London

1:25:57

in July of 2009 and that's because Clive

1:26:01

has his big birthday party every July,

1:26:04

so that's why I went back in July,

1:26:07

and I was there for about two weeks

1:26:09

and I run into Binyam and he says,

1:26:10

"Um, what are you doing, like, on a Wednesday night?"

1:26:13

I said, "Oh, I'm not doing anything."

1:26:15

He said, "Well, I want you to come over

1:26:16

'cause I want to have dinner with you."

1:26:18

So, he had this dinner and it was him,

1:26:21

another former detainee, Omar Deghayes,

1:26:24

and I think it might've been another individual

1:26:29

who was a former detainee, a couple people from Reprieve,

1:26:31

which is Clive's organization,

1:26:35

and Binyam has cooked me this spaghetti dinner.

1:26:36

And I almost cried because he remembered

1:26:39

a conversation we had like two or three years ago,

1:26:42

and I was just kind of joking with him

1:26:45

when I told him, "When I get you out,

1:26:47

you owe me a spaghetti dinner,"

1:26:48

but he remembered it, he remembered that he told me

1:26:49

about the spaghetti dinner, that he would fix me

1:26:52

a spaghetti dinner.

1:26:53

And throughout this dinner, he kept apologizing

1:26:54

'cause he didn't have, like, pasta noodles,

1:26:57

he had, like, little short noodles

1:26:59

and he was kind of upset that he didn't have, like, pasta

1:27:00

because that's what he had promised me.

1:27:03

I said, "Binyam," I said, "The fact that you made me

1:27:05

this dinner is all the, you know, all I need."

1:27:06

And it almost just, like, took my breath away.

1:27:10

And it was those type of moments of that nature

1:27:15

that makes you realize, you know, wow.

1:27:18

That and I remember one other situation one time

1:27:21

when I brought him, I would bring him,

1:27:24

whenever Clive would come over or I would go to London,

1:27:28

I would bring things back from London

1:27:32

to kind of give him that remembrance of, you know,

1:27:33

of being in the UK, and during one conversation,

1:27:36

I had talked to him about how I like the Cadbury bars,

1:27:39

but I only liked them from the UK

1:27:42

'cause I think chocolate tastes better over in the UK.

1:27:43

But when I went to the UK, I bought him

1:27:46

about four or five Cadbury bars

1:27:47

and I told him my favorite was the fruit and nuts,

1:27:49

and I had bought the fruit and nuts,

1:27:51

but I bought them for him.

1:27:52

And throughout this meeting, he was eating

1:27:54

the Cadbury bars, but he put this one fruit and nut aside

1:27:56

and I'm trying to figure out,

1:27:59

"Binyam, why aren't you eating the fruit and nut?"

1:28:00

And at the end, he said, "Oh, I'll eat it,"

1:28:02

and at the very end of the meeting,

1:28:05

'cause he couldn't keep anything with him,

1:28:05

he gave me the bar back, he says,

1:28:07

"Here, I want you to have this, this is for you."

1:28:08

I said, "Binyam, no, I bought that for you."

1:28:10

But he remembered from a conversation we had

1:28:12

that I told him that one of my favorite candy bars

1:28:14

were the Cadbury fruit and nuts

1:28:16

and he set that aside to give back to me,

1:28:18

so he could give it to me.

1:28:20

And it's moments like that when you realize,

1:28:20

wow, you know, that sense of humanity,

1:28:23

that sense of, you know, the rapport,

1:28:26

as I said, I don't think we fully connected,

1:28:28

in some ways he'd trust me,

1:28:30

but there's little things like that

1:28:31

that I will hold onto and treasure

1:28:32

of, you know, the good that came out of Guantanamo

1:28:35

and our relationship there.

1:28:38

Interviewer

So did you grow from that?

1:28:41

From your experience in Guantanamo?

1:28:43

-

Grow?

1:28:47

It changed me, it, in some senses,

1:28:48

rocks your foundation on what people,

1:28:50

well, that's a really good question,

1:28:55

I mean, I don't know, I think I learned

1:28:58

many lessons from it, I think the lessons

1:29:00

were all connected in some way once we allow

1:29:04

not fear and propaganda to rule our lives,

1:29:08

where we can sit down and listen to people

1:29:12

and that you gain a whole lot more through dialogue

1:29:14

and conversation than you do by, you know,

1:29:18

being at odds, at odds and ends with people.

1:29:22

But I also learned that you just can't take anything

1:29:26

at face value, I don't care whether it's your government

1:29:30

telling you, I don't care if your best friend

1:29:33

that tells you that certain things,

1:29:35

you just have to learn the facts on your own

1:29:36

because if you, sometimes you take things.

1:29:40

As I walked into Guantanamo Bay believing

1:29:42

these are the worst of the worst

1:29:44

and this guy was a terrorist and I allowed that fear

1:29:46

and that propaganda to color my perspective

1:29:48

on what other facts was telling me,

1:29:51

that I've learned that sometimes you have to

1:29:53

question the source, no matter what the source is,

1:29:56

and try to dig into what is the fact

1:29:59

and what the truth is.

1:30:01

Interviewer

You hear from many people

1:30:04

about the humanity of it all and it's promising.

1:30:05

-

Yeah, and it is, but you have to cut through the nonsense.

1:30:09

And the other thing that just amazed me of,

1:30:13

Binyam never, talk about a rapport in our relationship,

1:30:17

Binyam never told me anything that was,

1:30:21

he didn't believe was true, was,

1:30:24

he never lied to me, he never actively lied to me.

1:30:26

But I, unfortunately, I can't say that every time

1:30:29

I went to Guantanamo, I was lied to by some official,

1:30:31

by some guard, by someone in the system,

1:30:35

and it just haunted me.

1:30:39

That struck me hard one day

1:30:41

when I was just reflecting, like,

1:30:42

every time I come down to Guantanamo,

1:30:44

why can't anyone just be honest and,

1:30:45

I mean, people tell you outright lies,

1:30:47

you're like, "That's not true."

1:30:49

But the alleged terrorist is the only one

1:30:52

who's being honest with me.

1:30:55

I thought, "How ironic is that?"

1:30:56

The only person who's honest with me

1:30:59

when half the time I'm down in Guantanamo

1:31:00

is my client, everyone else, you know,

1:31:02

sometimes I had to treat with a grain of salt

1:31:06

of what I'm being told and I just thought,

1:31:08

"That's just not right," it just didn't make sense.

1:31:10

But it's the world of Guantanamo.

1:31:14

Interviewer

Well, Lou, anything else?

1:31:18

Lou

No, that's it.

1:31:21

Interviewer

Is there anything else that you want to?

1:31:22

-

No, I think I've rambled enough.

1:31:23

Lou

No, you weren't rambling at all.

1:31:26

Interviewer

It was very wonderful.

1:31:27

It was really a wonderful story.

1:31:28

We have to take 20 seconds of room tone.

1:31:30

-

All right.

1:31:34

Interviewer

So, Johnny will just do that

1:31:34

before we close.

1:31:35

Yvonne

Okay.

1:31:37

Johnny

Again, room tone.

1:31:38

End room tone.

1:31:54

Yvonne

Ooh, it's warm in here.

1:31:55

Interviewer

It was really expect...

1:31:56

Bradley, Yvonne - Interview master file

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