Tape 7, 2000 April / Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee 40th anniversary conference videocassette tapes, 2000 / Duke Digital Repository

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She took us to the store,

0:00

she brought us a shirt, slacks, a jacket, and a tie.

0:02

When everybody came, she dressed us up,

0:05

and she says,

0:07

"Now you look like lobbyists."

0:08

(laughing)

0:10

And then she said,

0:11

"I expect you to act like lobbyists."

0:12

(laughing)

0:14

So within that framework, I want to introduce to you again,

0:17

a wonderful human being, one of the people

0:21

who guided us along these treacherous paths, Anne Braden.

0:25

Thank you.

0:29

(applauding)

0:30

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Thanks, Ivanhoe.

0:48

Am I talking into this mic?

0:51

Can you all hear me?

0:52

Crowd

Yeah.

0:54

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I have trouble with mics.

I'm not really a speaker.

0:55

I think I'm a writer, but I'm not really a speaker.

0:56

Have trouble with mics, and people say I get soft as I talk.

0:59

So, for some reason, I don't know why,

1:02

wave your hand if you can't hear me.

1:05

By the way, I know I'd forgotten

1:09

that first time you came to Louisville.

1:11

I wish you'd come back.

1:13

(laughing)

1:15

I had to get over here, leaving a whole bunch

1:17

of crisis in Louisville right now, so, you know.

1:20

So things go on, and on, and on.

1:23

And Chuck, I was not at the first SNCC conference.

1:25

And it was the only one I ever missed,

1:31

'cause I had just had a baby.

1:33

And you know, it's true that, I mean, some of us,

1:36

we try to do all these things and have babies too.

1:40

(laughing)

1:43

And, it created some problems, but it happened.

1:45

But I missed that, but I was very much watching it

1:48

because I remember those weeks, well, what was it?

1:52

It was just from about February second to April, right?

1:57

Chuck

Right.

1:59

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After the sit-in started in Greensboro,

2:00

and being on the phone with Ella Baker,

2:02

and she was telling me about how

2:06

she was trying to pull together this thing.

2:08

It's time for the students to come together

2:10

and said she was depending a lot

2:13

on Jim Lawson

2:15

because Nashville was, you know

2:17

all these things were happening in Nashville.

2:21

And, I think that, you see

2:23

for people like me

2:24

and, by the way, I wasn't that much older than y'all

2:26

(laughing)

2:29

but it seemed like I was one of the old folks, you know?

2:30

And that was touchy, all through those years

2:31

'cause us old folks had to make sure

2:34

nobody thought we were trying to take over,

2:36

control things, right?

2:38

I was with SCEF, right, Southern Conference Educational Fund

2:40

and we really bent over backwards, sort of

2:42

and sometimes we probably should have said something

2:44

I can think of some things I should've said,

2:47

(laughing)

2:48

but we didn't want any of these young people

2:50

thinking we were trying to tell them what to do, right?

2:52

Because there are too many adults, really, were doing that,

2:54

or wanted to use them and stuff like that.

2:56

I think I was 36.

3:01

No, no, I was 35.

3:04

I think so.

3:06

Anyway, somewhere in there,

3:08

which I consider kind of a half a generation.

3:10

I said, I was a half a generation older than those kids.

3:12

But for those of us who had been around a little while

3:16

in this, we were so excited about what was happening

3:18

in the sit-in movement and the young people

3:21

and we forget, and God, I can remember

3:24

being at a workshop in Hollander,

3:26

at Hollander in '59.

3:28

I forget what it was, there were all kinds of workshops.

3:31

And I can't remember what it was on,

3:33

but I remember so vividly people sitting around

3:36

bemoaning the fact, where is the younger generation?

3:38

I mean, really, that's what they were saying.

3:43

And I'm strutting around, Carol and I both were, then,

3:45

we would go to various campuses

3:48

because, all the things going on,

3:51

what were happening, we were trying to get support

3:52

and, a lot of campuses, you'd find a little,

3:55

tight group of folks that were activists, and all that

3:58

but they were very small,

4:02

and not many people were listening to them.

4:04

And, it was, it's known as the "Silent '50s",

4:06

you've heard of that.

4:10

My theory about the '50s is,

4:12

they never were as silent

4:13

as a lot of people have written it up in books,

4:15

because it was always, that was the repression, in the '50s,

4:19

that was when I came into things,

4:21

was at the hight of the Cold War,

4:23

in the late '40s, early '50s,

4:25

when all this repression, and the Cold War,

4:27

at home and abroad, was descending

4:29

and me, and the struggles

4:30

what I call the resistance movement of the 1950s existed

4:33

and because of circumstances in my life,

4:36

I had to get around and travel, all over the country

4:38

in the early '50s, to try to stay out of jail in Kentucky,

4:42

so it was a very privileged thing, looking back on it

4:46

because I met the people all over the country

4:48

who were resisting, who were never silent.

4:50

So the '50s were never silent.

4:52

And Jim was around then, right?

4:54

You were doing things in the '50s.

4:56

There was a resistance movement

4:58

the people who never quit fighting racism,

4:59

who stood up against segregation,

5:01

then people who fought against the Korean war,

5:03

all these things that were going on,

5:07

so that movement was there

5:10

and I have a real emotional attachment to that movement.

5:12

You know, I think

5:15

the first thing you ever do in the movement

5:16

is the most important thing in your life,

5:18

I mean, to you all who went to Mississippi

5:20

in the early '60s, there'll never be anything

5:22

like Mississippi.

5:24

Well, to me, there'll never quite be anything

5:25

like that esprit de corps

5:26

that those of us fighting back in the '50s had.

5:28

You know, we really felt it was us against the world

5:30

but we were together, and, you know

5:32

sort of like, but not as on as big a scale as the '60s,

5:34

and you talk about family,

5:38

I call it, "the scattered brotherhood and sisterhood"

5:40

and you knew, when you met somebody,

5:43

that they were a part of it, and so forth, and so on.

5:45

So, there were things going on.

5:47

But the younger generation, where was it?

5:48

A lot of them were silent,

5:50

and, of course, it had started to break.

5:52

I always say, the beginning of the end of the 1950s

5:56

was December 1st, 1955,

5:59

when Rosa Parks sat down on that cart.

6:00

You know, that was the beginning.

6:03

That was the beginning, and after that,

6:05

it was a while before people caught on, but

6:07

after that, and of course, all what happened

6:09

with Montgomery, and other places around the South,

6:11

there were all the bus boycotts, you remember that, Jim

6:13

and all these things happening,

6:15

still the students weren't there,

6:17

in any great numbers,

6:19

but there were things happening,

6:21

but that's what, and I've had a lot of trouble

6:22

all these years, trying to,

6:24

and most people, I guess I haven't convinced,

6:27

that weren't a part of that,

6:30

who think that history,

6:33

that that's what broke the poll of the '50s,

6:34

and changed the direction of the country

6:38

and, eventually, when the young people came into it

6:41

in the '60s, in the early '60s,

6:44

shook the very foundations of this country

6:46

and produced all these other,

6:50

suddenly, everything was opened up to questions

6:52

and it produced all these other movements,

6:54

anti-war movement, the women's movement

6:56

every movement that's come since,

6:58

that's where it came from

6:59

and, I'm getting off of the subject,

7:02

but anyway, where was the younger generation?

7:06

And I think about that stand,

7:08

then all of a sudden here was Greensboro,

7:09

it was all like wildfire, all over the South

7:11

Nashville, all these places

7:12

and we were very excited

7:14

and I think about that sometimes today

7:16

because I hear people saying, today

7:18

that are trying to deal with

7:21

these massive problems Jim talked about today

7:23

"Where are the young people, where are the young people?"

7:25

and I think we're beginning to hear from young people today

7:28

you know, they'll be there

7:31

and so, we were very excited about it

7:34

and that's what Ella says,

7:38

she says it's time to bring them together

7:39

and so, I knew about it, I just wasn't here

7:41

I missed that much

7:43

the only SNCC conference I ever missed.

7:44

After that I came.

7:47

But, let me just say,

7:48

and I don't want to talk to long,

7:52

I did too much preliminaries, there

7:53

I tried to think about what to say this morning

7:55

and they told me, originally

7:57

when Martha Norman called me, I guess

7:59

that the topic of this panel

8:01

was Ella Baker in the radical tradition.

8:03

That's what they told me, okay?

8:06

They changed the name of it.

8:07

(audience laughing)

8:08

So that got me to thinking, see?

8:11

And as I say, there have been so many crisis in my life

8:13

and in where I live, and lately,

8:15

that I didn't have time to sit down

8:17

and really think about it

8:18

because I'd ride around going here or there

8:20

I thought, I gotta think about that.

8:22

What can I say about Ella Baker in the radical tradition?

8:23

And it's very interesting

8:26

because it made me think about,

8:31

what does the word radical mean?

8:32

You know, we use it a lot, right?

8:35

But what does it mean?

8:36

So I got to thinking about that,

8:38

and for one thing, I've been fighting a losing battle

8:39

for years, to get people to quit saying

8:44

"the radical right"

8:45

because that's just contradiction,

8:48

you can't have a radical right.

8:49

What they mean is the "extreme right,"

8:52

but they say "radical right."

8:55

But I've lost that battle,

8:57

they still say "radical right."

8:58

So I thought, you know, it's not that.

9:01

But then, I always thought of radical

9:02

as, you know, you can get the definition of it

9:04

you go to the root of what's wrong, right?

9:06

You try to change the whole thing

9:08

you don't pick around the edges

9:09

you get to the root of it

9:10

and change, for me, the society

9:12

change the world, make a new world.

9:14

And I think that, sort of, gets at it

9:17

but I think about

9:20

a lot of times, when we think of radical

9:24

if we're away from that "radical right" craziness

9:26

we think of very theoretical,

9:30

theories of social change.

9:33

Marx, and all the other various things that came,

9:37

different branches of that, and so forth

9:40

and people figuring out these things from books

9:44

and often doing very, very good things

9:46

after they've done that.

9:48

But I couldn't fit Ella into that.

9:50

Because, and I don't know

9:53

and maybe somebody here has, and I want to hear it

9:55

I don't think I ever heard Ella,

9:58

and I was with her a lot,

9:59

ever talk about her theory

10:01

of what this new society was gonna be,

10:05

exactly what it was gonna be,

10:08

an analysis of the one we had, you know

10:10

the things we think of when we think about radical theory

10:12

I never heard her talk about that

10:15

and you know, I thought, I really, to this day

10:17

and I've skimmed through, where's Joanne Brand, she here?

10:20

Her book again, recently said, well

10:22

"Did she say that?"

10:24

and then I thought about it too

10:26

that I don't even know what

10:27

Ella's religious beliefs were, specifically!

10:29

Now, maybe some of you all know,

10:32

Jim

I don't know.

10:33

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You do?

Jim

No I don't remember.

10:35

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You don't?

Jim doesn't either, he doesn't remember.

10:36

Well, I never heard her talk about it.

10:38

I'm sure she had faith,

10:41

but I didn't hear her talk about that

10:43

but then I thought, well maybe somebody did,

10:46

maybe there'll be somebody at that conference

10:48

who heard Ella spell all this out,

10:49

because I didn't, but every time I talked to Ella

10:50

through many years, and we stayed in real close touch,

10:52

and I won't go into that matter,

10:55

but you know, we got into real close touch.

10:57

It was always in the midst of some crisis,

10:59

and we were talking about some situation

11:02

that she was trying to deal with

11:04

and help deal with, and help people deal with

11:05

or some individual who was in a crisis,

11:07

who was, you know, part of our movement

11:09

and things like that, it was always those

11:11

immediate things that we talked about.

11:13

So, I don't know.

11:15

So, I thought, well, I'm gonna have to look at,

11:16

put Ella in the radical tradition,

11:19

because she really was, if you want to talk about

11:21

the roots of the society, she really was.

11:23

So, I got to thinking about

11:26

what was it that Ella was really doing?

11:27

What was she trying to do?

11:32

And I came up with two or three things,

11:34

I just want to mention them, like Jim I'll mention things

11:35

I won't take time to explain it,

11:38

it seemed to me

11:41

that she had, one of her abiding faiths,

11:46

and she said, some things you can put into words, about this

11:50

is that, people, just plain people

11:54

should run the society they live in.

11:58

That's what jibbed her, we don't do that,

12:03

we didn't, we weren't doing it in 1960,

12:05

we're sure not doing it now.

12:07

But she had a belief that should happen

12:09

and that it could happen,

12:13

you know, it became a slogan in the '60s,

12:14

what was the slogan?

12:16

We want some control,

12:17

over the decisions that affect our lives,

12:19

and you know, slogans get kind of hacked

12:20

and you don't think about them any more

12:23

but I think that she had that deep commitment

12:24

that people should run their own world.

12:27

And I think that, one of the things she did

12:30

was that she facilitated, is the word that comes to my mind

12:33

people coming together, wherever they were,

12:38

to begin to do that.

12:42

She wasn't gonna do it for them,

12:44

but she believed they could do it,

12:47

she had absolute faith that they could

12:49

and if you think back, maybe to situations you knew Ella in

12:52

that that's kind of what she was doing,

12:55

she was facilitating people coming together,

12:59

and knowing that they could run their society,

13:02

if it was just a podunk, or a little town,

13:05

or the state, or eventually the country, right?

13:07

But you've gotta do it, first, where you are

13:12

and I think she knew that

13:14

and so, she did that

13:17

and the other thing that I thought that she did

13:18

well let me just say, when you think about radical

13:24

the idea of plain people running the society they live in

13:27

is pretty damn radical

13:32

and really, it's what we haven't solved yet

13:34

I mean, I'm sure you know

13:37

right today, as we try to organize different things

13:39

one of the worst problems we run into

13:42

is people being hopeless,

13:44

what can you do?

13:45

You know?

13:46

Black, white, green, people of all ethnicities,

13:47

what can you do?

13:52

And in a way, it seems to people anyway

13:53

it's harder to grab hold of now, Jim, than it was then

13:56

because you had lunch counters, right?

13:59

You know, now it's the global economy

14:01

and of course, that's what makes, to me

14:03

Seattle so exciting

14:05

because people were getting a handle on,

14:07

how can we speak to this faceless monster

14:09

the global economy?

14:12

How are we gonna control this?

14:14

Well, you've gotta start by,

14:15

you gotta learn how to do that

14:16

and whatever little town you're in, you know

14:17

you're not taking on the whole South immediately,

14:20

you know, it prevented that

14:23

but I think she knew, you start where you are.

14:25

But I think that, in a way, that is the big question

14:27

that we always face, the human race, really

14:29

politically, economically, socially, I mean

14:32

there are other questions, but

14:33

how in the world do people

14:35

really control the world they live in?

14:36

And create a good life, how do you do it?

14:39

Hasn't been answered all through history.

14:41

We've stabbed at it, you find the answers for a while,

14:43

some people find them,

14:46

and then things happen, and it goes away temporarily

14:47

but that's still a big question

14:50

and that's what she was about, and I think also

14:51

that she had this tremendous faith

14:53

in every human being whose life she touched

14:57

and I expect that's what a lot of you

15:01

remember about her, that knew her,

15:03

she believed you could do anything that needed to be done

15:04

she really believed that, so she made you believe it.

15:08

You know, she gave people faith in themselves,

15:11

not by preaching, just by believing in you,

15:14

of being there when you needed her,

15:17

when you wanted to call, you had a problem

15:19

I know I heard Ella say,

15:20

"I've tried to make myself available."

15:21

you know, "When people need me I've tried to be available."

15:24

Well, what's more than just being there,

15:26

just the voice from the other end of the phone

15:27

is that she really believed that in every one of us

15:30

there was something creative, tremendous,

15:33

beautiful, and that could make a difference

15:38

and because she believed in us,

15:41

we could believe in ourselves

15:43

and she had that ability, and that's quite radical

15:44

because you can't build these movements without those people

15:47

individuals who believe in themselves.

15:50

But finally, she didn't think that

15:51

one person could do it by themselves,

15:54

and one person, sometimes, people say Rosa Parks did

15:55

well, I don't know, I mean, that was the spark

15:59

but people have been working in Montgomery a long time

16:03

including Rosa, you know,

16:05

people went, "Rosa, she came out of the blue!"

16:06

she'd been beating sidewalks trying to get people to join

16:07

the MAAPC for years before she sat out on that bus,

16:09

or refused to move on the bus.

16:12

So, one person standing up can make a difference,

16:14

can raise a banner, but I think Ella was convinced

16:18

that to get things done, you've got to have organization

16:21

you've got to be organized.

16:24

And I think that that's what,

16:26

she realized when the sit-ins were sweeping the South,

16:28

and was obvious that change was coming

16:32

and I think it was Roy Wilkins,

16:38

and I don't usually choose him to quote,

16:41

but I remember he said,

16:42

he put his finger on something when he said,

16:43

"When a whole generation decides something wrong is wrong,

16:46

it's dead."

16:48

You know?

16:49

And that was happening, it was happening before Raleigh

16:51

the Raleigh conference, you know?

16:54

I think he said that it was obvious that this was gonna go

16:55

that this form of segregation was gonna go,

16:59

because the young people have decided it was gonna go

17:01

but I think Ella sensed that that's not gonna be enough

17:03

that people have to come together and organize,

17:06

if we're gonna go on from there

17:10

because, I'm sure everybody knew

17:12

that lunch counters weren't the real issue

17:15

I mean, who's gonna risk their lives for a hamburger

17:16

and every body knew that,

17:22

that sat on those lunch counter stools,

17:23

I don't think anybody thought they were really there

17:25

for the hamburger, did they?

17:27

(laughing)

I don't think so, I mean, they had a vision of a new world

17:27

they really did, but she knew you needed organization

17:31

and that's why she said, and I think, so far as I know,

17:35

this was her idea, the conference,

17:39

because I remember her saying,

17:41

"It's time we've gotta try to bring these students together"

17:42

and that's what she was doing,

17:45

from the base of SCLC, where she worked

17:48

and, with Jim's help, and the help of other people

17:50

she got y'all on the phone,

17:52

but she knew that power of organization

17:54

she knew it in Mississippi,

17:55

with the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party,

17:57

and all of them down, that she never forgot that

17:58

and I think that the other thing, finally

18:01

and I don't know where this comes from,

18:04

some people have it, she had a sixth sense

18:06

of sensing when a society is at a point that it can move

18:09

and this was one of those moments,

18:15

of seizing those moments, and she knew that

18:17

and, you know, she had been supporting our,

18:20

when Montgomery happened, she was in New York

18:22

she set up this thing, I think,

18:26

called In Friendship, in New York

18:27

she'd gone back there, she was living there

18:30

to support Montgomery

18:31

she knew that, there, again

18:32

that organization had to continue, not just one act

18:34

she knew that, but she also had that sixth sense

18:36

of knowing when this, something, can happen.

18:39

Things perk along a long time,

18:44

I say, you know, I tell people

18:46

that, trying to come into things now, you know

18:48

they demonstrated, they said, they went and demonstrated

18:50

and they got people out, and had these demonstrations

18:52

and we've still got the problem!

18:55

And I said, what do you expect?

18:56

We're fighting 400 years of history

18:57

when we're talking about ending, dealing with racism

18:59

and that kind of thing.

19:01

But, a lot, and I tell people, you know

19:02

you look at the mass movements,

19:06

people see eyes-on-the-prize.

19:08

They see movements, back there

19:09

they see thousands of people marching in the streets

19:11

so they think they can go right out there,

19:13

and then you march in the streets.

19:14

Every mass movement we've ever had came after

19:16

a lot of mundane, hard work,

19:18

like Rosa Parks did in Montgomery,

19:20

beat the sidewalks, knocking on people's doors

19:22

who don't wanna talk to you,

19:24

trying to get, calling 20 people for a meeting

19:26

and getting five, and then you try again, next week

19:28

you know, that's what happens and then it explodes,

19:30

but she knew, this was the moment.

19:33

And I think, that I just want to finish,

19:35

because, it was a very moving comment you made, Chuck

19:43

earlier, about this band of people, as a family

19:47

we loved each other and all that,

19:52

you did a lot more than that.

19:53

I mean, sure, there was this love and comradeship

19:55

like I said some of us felt in the '50s,

19:58

where you're fighting a common battle,

20:01

that's what builds the ties in your life

20:02

you know, I've said, people you're the closest to

20:04

are the ones you went to jail with,

20:06

and, you know, that kind of stuff

20:07

but it wasn't just that, I don't think

20:08

I think that, one reason I think you had

20:13

that sense of community and family,

20:16

was because, even if it wasn't always articulated

20:21

you knew you were part of something

20:25

that was gonna change this country.

20:28

You really believed in a new society

20:30

and I tell people today, I said,

20:32

people say SNCC didn't have any philosophy,

20:35

didn't have and politics, I said,

20:37

"Oh, yes they did!"

20:38

They had a vision.

20:40

They talked about "the beloved community"

20:41

and I said, you know, that sounds kinda gooey today

20:44

so, what are those people talking about, I said,

20:44

it didn't then, because people were willing to die for it

20:47

and, as I say, you don't go out and die for something

20:50

except a big vision.

20:52

You don't die for a hamburger,

20:54

I'm not even sure you die for the right to vote.

20:55

You die if you are willing to die,

20:57

if you have a vision of a new society,

20:59

and that's what people had, I think,

21:01

and people, as far as I know, really didn't define

21:04

what this beloved community,

21:06

(audience applauding)

I never heard anybody, maybe they did,

21:13

define exactly what this "beloved community" was gonna

21:15

look like, or be like,

21:17

but there was the definite knowledge

21:18

that it wasn't gonna just be a society

21:21

where people loved each other,

21:24

although that was gonna be part of it,

21:25

but it was, I think, if you could generalize it any way

21:27

it was gonna be a just society,

21:29

where every human being was respected,

21:31

and had an opportunity to live a creative, full life

21:33

I think that's what it was about,

21:36

I think that's still a good vision today

21:37

or, you could refine it,

21:39

you could have your own theories about it,

21:41

of how you're gonna get there,

21:42

but you don't, we don't have a movement

21:44

that can really change things,

21:48

unless people have that vision of creating a new world

21:49

I said, you've gotta know what stone,

21:52

what cathedral you're building when you put your stone in,

21:54

because these stones are getting kind of heavy

21:56

and, I think that what you, of that generation did, is

21:59

I don't think the story has been told enough, yet, you know?

22:04

A lot of history books don't seem to understand it.

22:10

The people who met here, in Raleigh, at that weekend

22:13

changed this country.

22:17

Now, they didn't change it enough, Lord knows, right?

22:19

Or we wouldn't be running ragged now, some of us, you know?

22:22

And there's a whole thing, what happened,

22:24

and that's another story, I've got my theory

22:27

about what happened, and why the movement

22:29

didn't go on when it should have,

22:30

I know a lot of people disagree with me,

22:30

I'm not gonna argue about it right now,

22:32

maybe this weekend we will,

22:33

because I think I know what happened.

22:34

(laughing)

22:37

But, for that shining decade,

22:38

you set the agenda of the country.

22:40

Never got political power, then

22:42

but you set the agenda of the country.

22:43

And it was a humane agenda, that was for everybody,

22:45

moving things, broadening democracy, if that's our theme,

22:47

for everybody, which makes me so wild when I hear it,

22:51

you know, the reverse discrimination thing,

22:54

and how when blacks came, they

22:56

took something away from whites,

22:57

everything the movement gained,

22:59

broadened rights for everybody in very practical ways

23:00

I go to these colleges, these white kids

23:02

how many of you here on Pell Grants?

23:04

Practically all of em', if you're not at Harvard.

23:06

There was nothing like that,

23:08

until blacks demanded equal education,

23:09

and whites got it too,

23:11

and a lot of working class whites went to college,

23:12

you know, that's one small example, but

23:14

for that decade, you shook the country,

23:16

you raised up this vision,

23:20

and when I talk to young people today,

23:22

I said, you know, the people who changed things in the '60s,

23:26

they were no older than you.

23:29

They were high school students sometimes,

23:31

they were 17 and 18 years old,

23:33

in Mississippi, Hollice Parkins is here somewhere,

23:35

and other people, from the bowels of Mississippi,

23:37

who were 17, 18 years old!

23:40

Man

Brenda was 14!

-

14?

23:43

(audience yelling in disagreement)

23:44

16, okay!

23:46

And I said,

23:47

(audience chattering)

that's why it upsets me, when I run into young people,

23:51

I was roped into teaching a class on civil rights

23:53

here at Northern Kentucky University, a couple years ago

23:55

and I couldn't believe it,

23:59

I had these young people, I'd come to realize,

24:00

that they didn't have any notion of change in the world

24:03

I said, that's what being young is all about,

24:04

where are you all?

24:06

But, that's what you did.

24:07

I think you've got to realize that,

24:10

and realizing it, as Jim says,

24:13

if we know that that could happen, what happened

24:16

in terms of really changing the country, but not enough

24:18

and I really want to talk, at some point, what happened

24:24

that if we did it once, and you did it once,

24:26

it can be done again, and it's more needed now, than ever

24:29

Man

Ever before, yeah.

24:33

-

And I think, and people say to me sometimes,

24:35

you're living in the '60s.

24:37

I don't romanticize the '60s, I was here,

24:38

and I know a lot of the problems that happened, right?

24:40

People don't understand the importance of that decade

24:43

it was the most important decade

24:45

in the history of this country,

24:47

except the 1860s, for the same reason

24:48

because it took on the illegitimate regime.

24:50

(audience applauding)

24:54

When people tell me I'm living in the '60s,

24:57

what they really mean is,

25:01

you still want to talk about racism

25:02

(laughing)

25:04

that's what they mean,

and we're beyond that, there are other issues

25:06

I said oh no you're not, no you're not.

25:08

You're not gonna deal with any of the rest of them,

25:09

and God knows there are other issues,

25:11

and there's all these things that people,

25:12

no medical care, no decent housing, you know

25:15

we know all the problems.

25:17

You're not gonna deal with any of them,

25:18

until we deal with racism,

25:20

because as long as people of color

25:21

can be written off as expendable,

25:23

which is what they are, in this country today,

25:25

and in the world,

25:27

then you're not gonna solve any of the problems

25:28

because they're acceptable victims of these problems, right?

25:30

So, you have to, and how you do it today

25:33

is de-segregation, integration

25:36

that word, integration, I'll just say

25:39

that, you know, that's become a bad word

25:40

and the reason is, a lot of us white folks

25:41

had a very different idea, I think, from African-Americans

25:44

I think, about what the struggle was all about

25:48

and it comes out very clearly today,

25:51

because I think, to African-Americans, and, you know

25:54

I'm learning, the world is not all black and white,

25:59

and all of the other struggles of people of color

26:01

that came to center stage, really, because of this struggle

26:03

in that decade, it meant freedom, and liberation

26:05

whereas, to a lot of white people, unfortunately

26:10

and they still haven't seen it yet,

26:12

that the whole movement for de-segregation and integration

26:14

meant we'll bring blacks into our world,

26:16

which we will still control.

26:19

(Audience jeering in agreement)

26:21

I'm afraid that lesson hadn't been well enough learned yet.

26:23

But, anyways, if we did it once, or if you did it one

26:25

it can be done again.

26:29

(audience cheering and applauding)

26:31

-

Anne Braden, she's a wonderful person

26:53

and it's such a pleasure to hear,

26:57

and participate, and listen to her, you know

27:01

there was a time when she was considered

27:03

one of the most dangerous people in America.

27:05

I mean, can you believe that?

27:08

We're just a weird society.

27:10

(laughing)

27:12

Yeah, without question.

27:14

Vincent isn't here, I thought that we would,

27:17

we have about 15 minutes to ask a few questions

27:21

to the panelists, for people who would like to make

27:24

kind of, personal statements,

27:27

as relates to Ella Baker in particular, or SNCC in general

27:30

I know that Larry Guillot came into the room

27:34

and he and Ms. Baker shared the struggles

27:37

in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party

27:40

terms of leadership, and Mike Sellwell,

27:42

Connie Currie is here,

27:44

and during those early birthdays of SNCC,

27:46

was a major force in helping us move together,

27:49

we all tried to talk Jane Stenbridge into coming here

27:53

some of you don't know her, but she was the first,

27:58

sort of, volunteer, I guess you could say SNCC ever had

28:00

working with Ms. Baker,

28:03

as Sherrod mentioned last night,

28:05

I guess if there was an official first staffer

28:07

it would have been Charles Sharrod,

28:09

so, I think it would be kind of nice for people

28:12

to make personal comments, and so forth and so on

28:15

so, we'll get started giving time,

28:18

Brother Macklemore?

28:21

-

[Brother Macklemore] I think the pressing matter

28:23

for this city, is the taxing

28:25

and, I worked with Ms. Baker too, in Washington

28:28

where I worked with Josh Rogg, Frank Smith

28:34

and worked with them,

28:37

when we did the Atlantic City Challenge

28:39

in fact, I was the only Mississippi person on the staff

28:43

this conference, I just want to make a couple of statements

28:49

this conference reminds me of the old SNCC meetings

28:52

the structure is the same, and I think it's important

28:56

that we have the structure, because

29:01

Macklemore was a chairman, and we called him chairman

29:03

and we should.

29:07

And you look at the program,

29:09

all you young people here,

29:12

from different colleges and universities

29:14

you look at the program, and the program reflects

29:16

the old SNCC structure.

29:18

There are people on the program

29:21

that are on the program multiple times,

29:23

as if there were not other people in SNCC doing things

29:25

number of old people, as I'm looking around this room

29:29

worked in Mississippi, Alabama, in Georgia

29:33

who made contributions, and I want to say

29:36

to the planning of the program,

29:39

they did a tremendous job, a wonderful job

29:40

I'm glad we're here, I'm excited about being here

29:44

I wish I had brought my 15 year old son with me.

29:46

So, this is great, but I just think

29:50

that as we discuss this weekend, and the next several days

29:52

it's important that we also remember,

29:57

that a lot of us have a life beyond SNCC,

30:00

that a lot of us are doing things in our communities

30:04

that are very important.

30:07

I've been working in Jackson, Mississippi

30:08

since 1971, been involved in a variety

30:10

of community activities, and I still am.

30:13

I'm mentoring five young persons in my community

30:15

I'm presidents of the local chapel of 100 black men

30:19

I'm a mentor for life, I've been involved

30:22

with all of the recent struggles in Mississippi,

30:24

I'm one of the City Council in Jackson,

30:28

and I'm doing a lot of things, and so I just think

30:30

it does not reflect reality, although this is a SNCC reunion

30:33

we're talking about Ms. Baker, you know,

30:37

we all have our Ella Baker stories, who were in SNCC,

30:39

and, but I think it's important that we expand our horizon

30:42

and I say to young people,

30:46

that as we talk about the old days,

30:48

that they are very important, but also

30:50

we need to talk about the future,

30:53

we need to talk about what we're doing now,

30:55

because there are some people at SNCC who went on

30:57

to do great things, but there are some people in SNCC

30:59

that's really not doing a lot of things now,

31:02

but they did things then,

31:05

and I think it's important, we can live off their glory

31:06

for a few days, but I think it's important,

31:08

for all of us in SNCC to be engaged in our community

31:12

and then I just want to say, that it is important

31:15

from my perspective, for us, really, to talk about

31:19

where we are now, what we're going to do

31:23

to attack this system of racism, now

31:26

the conversations we should have

31:28

in our communities about race, and about what we can do

31:31

to solve problems, I think it's important

31:35

that we talk about that now, because we have

31:37

40 years perspective, and then let me just say,

31:40

in conclusion, I would hope,

31:42

that I think, after 40 years,

31:44

after a 40 year reunion,

31:47

that we should have had a program, at least,

31:49

that was a keepsake program.

31:52

This program is a great program, but

31:54

the appearance of the program should have even been better.

31:57

Woman

Where'd you get that?

32:00

(audience laughing and cheering)

32:01

-

I got it last time, we got a re-issue

32:04

and they're hard to come by, you know?

32:07

But it is very clear to me, that we

32:09

don't do these kinds of things in our daily lives

32:12

because we moved all the other venues,

32:15

thank you very much, Ella Baker, years, a great lady,

32:18

SNCC, years, a great organization, thank you!

32:21

(audience applauding)

32:24

-

Let me just make one little thing clear,

32:28

so that we maintain a historical perspective,

32:31

there are a lot of writers here in the room,

32:34

for some of us, this is a reunion.

32:38

But this conference is not a SNCC reunion.

32:41

This conference is a conference about SNCC,

32:43

and about Ella Baker, being sponsored by

32:47

Shaw University and NC State,

32:50

and the convenience of this conference,

32:54

that Dr. Charles Payne and Dr. Moses,

32:55

given within that frame of reference,

33:02

comments and considerations and concerns

33:04

will be respected and understood

33:07

but, in some ways, as I try to make earlier in my remarks

33:10

we sort of, intruded into a celebration

33:13

that someone else was convening here.

33:18

So, I think we should understand that.

33:20

Man

Have Dr. Payne stand,

33:23

-

Oh, Dr. Payne?

33:24

I think I saw, where is Dr. Payne?

33:25

Dr. Moses?

33:28

Dr. Moses, she's here, and the planners of the conference,

33:31

are the planners of the conference here,

33:35

could they stand, please?

33:36

Dr. Moses

They're all happy to do the work.

33:38

(laughing)

33:40

-

We can bring more of them up here.

33:41

Chuck

Oh, there's Dr. Charles Payne, he's back there.

33:43

Dr. Moses

Dr. Payne is back there,

33:45

Dr. Morgan is back there,

33:46

Dr. Balti Jackson is back there some place.

33:48

(laughing)

33:51

Chuck

Well I think one of the things we need to do,

33:52

is, let's give a round of hands

33:56

for these people who've done this.

33:58

(applauding)

34:01

-

Where's Martha?

34:22

-

Martha Norman, where are you?

34:24

Martha, this is your moment to shine,

34:28

and you're not here!

34:30

(laughing)

34:31

-

Still working.

34:33

-

Still working!

(chuckling)

34:34

Okay, we wanted to say thank you

34:38

for this wonderful conference they have convened for us

34:40

we hope that a lot of stuff will come out of it,

34:44

and come forward, and, you know

34:46

when you see these people here

34:48

you know, ask them questions, discuss with them,

34:50

they are building a new intellectual platform,

34:53

or, expanding an intellectual platform on our behalf

34:56

Dr. Payne?

34:59

Dr. Payne

I would just like to express,

35:00

The only way we had a community

35:02

with so many people, with so little budget,

35:04

was the wonderful dedication, and a lot of time (mumbles).

35:06

(applauding)

35:09

-

Thank you.

As we wrap the session, is there any other comments

35:18

that people would like to say about Ms. Baker?

35:21

Mr. Guillot?

35:23

Martha is here!

35:26

Get your applause, Martha!

35:28

Martha was also one of those young 17 year olds

35:40

up at the time, I think she was at

35:42

the University of Michigan,

35:44

I was gonna give Mr. Guillot first,

35:46

and then give Mr. Sellwell

35:48

Go ahead, brother Mike, go ahead.

35:54

-

I just wanted to move the thought to thanks,

36:00

to brother Macklemore,

36:03

because I have to admit, that I'm guilty as charged.

36:06

I came back here, in the presence of my old SNCC comrades,

36:10

and I gave way to sentimentality and nostalgia.

36:15

(laughing)

36:18

It was only when Macklemore got up,

36:20

with his contentious Mississippi self,

36:22

(laughing)

36:25

that I stopped romanticizing he '60s.

36:26

I remember what stick beatings was like,

36:28

and I thank you my brother.

36:30

(laughing and applauding)

36:31

Chuck

You have to speak loud.

36:36

-

I humbly wish to dissent from both of my brothers,

36:38

I am proud to be in a chapel, on campus

36:44

that provides an academic arena,

36:48

to one of the greatest Americans to have ever lived,

36:51

Ella Baker took on Martin Luther King,

36:55

in every minister in SCLC.

36:57

Ella Baker was an advisor to Eleanor Roosevelt.

37:01

How do I know that?

37:05

She told me that.

37:07

Ella Baker gave the founding speech

37:09

at the the Freedom Democratic Party.

37:11

When Victoria Gray, Annie Divine, and Fannie Duhema

37:14

were on the floor of the house, Adam played Powell

37:19

and Congress insisted

37:27

that they not go on the floor of the house,

37:29

and the three of them asked Ella Baker,

37:32

what should we do?

37:34

Should we go on the floor

37:36

whilst the vote is being taken, or not?

37:38

And Ella Baker looked at them in the face and said,

37:40

"Y'all are pretty good at making decisions,

37:42

you don't need my help there."

37:45

I think that, if we are privileged

37:48

to be able to come to a University,

37:51

remember, there are only three corporations in the South

37:55

that are promoting dissent, only three.

37:57

Miles College in Alabama,

38:01

that great institution in Mississippi called Tougaloo,

38:03

and this one.

38:05

Man

And Rush College!

38:06

-

And this one!

38:07

I'm talking about the administration

38:09

supporting demonstration!

38:11

Let us not fall into the trap of using this thing,

38:13

this great celebration of one of the greatest Americans

38:19

to have ever lived, to enter into our personal schisms.

38:22

We got a responsibility to the students who are here,

38:26

and while I'm speaking, I want the students

38:29

who came to James Forman's memorial,

38:32

who came from North Carolina to Washington, D.C.

38:37

And they were playing a football game that evening,

38:41

are any of them here?

38:43

Man

They haven't arrived yet.

38:45

-

They haven't arrived yet!

38:46

I want us all to meet them, let's make this

38:48

an opportunity to share experiences,

38:50

let's do to the students who are here,

38:52

what Ella Baker did to all of us.

38:54

(applauding)

38:56

-

Well, I know there are a lot of passions in the room

39:02

and that's as it should be!

39:04

We do have to wrap, however, as there are other sessions,

39:07

Martha Prescott, our Martha, would like to deal with

39:09

some housekeeping matters, and I want to, once again

39:12

give a wonderful hand to our panelists,

39:14

Anne Braden and Reverend Lawson.

39:16

(applauding)

39:19

-

I just want to make sure that everybody who's on a panel

39:25

knows that your meals will be provided

39:29

at the student center cafeteria, here

39:31

just identify yourself as a panelist,

39:35

it's also my understanding, from the hotel,

39:37

that everyone who's booked in the hotel,

39:41

for this conference, panelists,

39:44

and people who are coming under their own auspices,

39:46

is entitled to a free breakfast,

39:51

Saturday and Sunday morning at the hotel,

39:55

and you go to the desk to get a ticket,

39:59

you have to show your room key at the desk,

40:02

and they'll give you a thing, for,

40:05

it's a little more than a continental breakfast,

40:08

yogurt and fruit, and so forth, okay?

40:10

Oh, The Sheridan.

40:18

At The Sheridan

40:19

Those who are staying at The Sheridan, okay?

40:20

We'll take a five minute break,

40:29

and then we'll assemble for the plenary

40:32

on the birth of SNCC.

40:34

Tape 7, 2000 April

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