Spitzer, Mindy - interviewed by Barbara Ester / Southern Lesbian-Feminist Activist Herstory Project / Duke Digital Repository

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Here we go.

0:00

So, (chuckles) this is fun.

0:04

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Yeah, and I'm gonna try to just relax about it,

0:07

because this is a lesbian herstory project,

0:10

and the reason it's come about

0:14

is because Merrell suggested that so little

0:15

of Southern lesbian herstory has been documented.

0:20

So as you're willing and I am willing

0:25

we'll share our story

0:27

of our Miami lesbian dyke experience.

0:29

You landed there in what year?

0:34

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October of 1975.

0:37

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October of '75.

0:41

And how, what drew you there in the first place,

0:45

besides work, finding lesbian community,

0:47

how did you even go about that?

0:50

First of all, you are a New York dyke,

0:52

so you are going to search for lesbians naturally.

0:55

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Absolutely because I cannot live

0:57

without lesbian family around me.

1:00

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We're you in a relationship at the time?

1:04

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No.

1:06

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And how involved were you in lesbian,

1:07

what they called lesbian feminist politics

1:09

at the time?

1:11

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Very involved I was leaving New York City

1:12

where I was still working on the lesbian switchboard,

1:15

and in the Women's Center and I was very involved

1:19

in the women's community in New York.

1:23

And when I got down here, within a week,

1:26

I needed to find some lesbians, somewhere.

1:29

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What was the first step you took then?

1:32

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I called the National Organization for Women,

1:34

I called NOW, and I asked them

1:36

if they had any lesbians

1:39

within their local organization,

1:43

and if they knew of any lesbians

1:45

or bars or bookstores or anywhere

1:47

where I might find a lesbian.

1:50

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Was NOW pretty forthcoming with all that?

1:53

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Oh, they were very good.

1:54

They told me right away about the Lesbian Task Force

1:56

and Maryanne and Louise.

1:59

And I asked them if they had their phone number.

2:00

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So they mentioned their names right away?

2:03

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Oh yes, definitely.

2:04

And they said that there are other lesbians,

2:07

a huge group of lesbians involved

2:08

with the Lesbian Task Force,

2:12

and to call Maryanne and Louise.

2:14

So I remember it was a Saturday night,

2:16

and it was probably around

2:20

four or five in the afternoon.

2:22

And I called up and Maryanne got on the phone

2:24

and I said hi I'm a New York dyke

2:29

and I just moved down here and I'm looking for lesbians.

2:32

I called NOW and they gave me your phone number.

2:36

Are you are you the dykes I'm looking for?

2:38

And she said we are.

2:41

And they invited me over that night,

2:43

and I drove over there and met them

2:47

and had a good time with them,

2:49

and they told me about other dykes

2:51

and invited me to a meeting,

2:55

of a gay Task Force

3:00

it was a mixed Task Force.

3:02

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Was it through NOW, too?

3:05

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No.

3:07

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Okay.

3:08

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And I went with them and I met, Holly Holcomb.

3:09

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So you didn't meet them through

3:15

the NOW lesbian chapter of NOW lesbians?

3:16

You met them through a gay Task Force?

3:19

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No, I met, I met Maryanne and Louise through the NOW.

3:21

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But when you went to this meeting,

3:26

now you're meeting other lesbians

3:27

but you're meeting them at a gay

3:29

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Yes

3:30

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Task force meeting.

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Yes.

3:31

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Where was that at?

3:32

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Some place downtown, it was near Holly's apartment,

3:34

which I think she lives somewhere around Temple Israel,

3:40

off of Biscayne or Northeast Second and 19th.

3:42

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What was their reason for existing?

3:46

what was their mo, did they have a political action

3:48

or anything that they were doing at the time?

3:50

What did you get out of going to the meeting?

3:52

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Well, I got out of the fact that I am not

3:56

used to being around gay men,

3:59

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Oh, you weren't?

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I don't and I still don't like it.

4:01

And that I could see that they wanted

4:04

to take over the conversation,

4:07

and that the dykes weren't letting them.

4:09

But I didn't really get much out of it.

4:12

I wasn't real interested in working with them.

4:15

But I did meet Holly.

4:20

And I met uh, it's hard to remember

4:23

who I met were, you know?

4:29

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Don't worry about that.

4:31

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But I met.

4:32

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Did you go back.

4:33

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Ingrid Hunter.

4:34

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Ingrid hunter, yeah, yeah.

4:37

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And I met

4:38

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Now didn't all these...

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Sybil Adams.

4:43

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All these, these lesbians you're talking about,

4:44

Do they have like, weren't they in positions of,

4:47

because the Task Force was a lesbian,

4:49

the Lesbian Task force of NOW

4:51

had like chairs or treasuries or secretaries

4:53

or whatever that those things are.

4:59

Wasn't Ingrid or Maryanne and Louise part of that?

5:01

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Well they claim that there was no leader,

5:04

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Okay.

5:07

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I remember specifically.

5:08

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Now specifically that's the Lesbian Task force of NOW/

5:10

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Yes.

5:11

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No leader?

5:13

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No leader, although Maryanne and Louise

5:14

really were the leaders,

5:16

but they didn't want to say they were the leaders.

5:19

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You felt they were the leaders?

5:22

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Oh, absolutely.

5:23

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Oh, well, so, how did you get from,

5:25

was that the only time you went to the gay...

5:27

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Yeah, that was the only gay meeting I went to.

5:29

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I wound up working with gay men again,

5:33

when Anita Bryant came in.

5:38

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Oh good question, that was later.

5:40

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A little bit later.

5:42

Note that though, because that was

5:43

kind of an amazing time.

5:46

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Yeah.

5:49

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What, so, from that meeting with Maryanne and Louise

5:50

and the social connection that you made with them.

5:52

what was the next step to you

5:55

for getting to the Lesbian Task Force and,

5:57

was that next and did you do other things in between?

5:59

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Well, they told me when the next meeting was

6:02

and it was shortly after I had met them

6:05

and I showed up there.

6:07

And it was meeting at the Y.

6:09

And I met most of my friends there.

6:12

And after the Y we would go out

6:20

and go have a couple of drinks and go dancing.

6:23

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Where'd you go, then?

6:27

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To the Nook, this little bar in Coral Gables.

6:30

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No kidding, wow, I've heard talk of it,

6:33

I've never been there.

6:35

I don't think we ever got there.

6:36

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We would go over to the Nook

6:37

and get a couple of pitchers of beer and dance.

6:39

And I got to know more people.

6:42

I got to know Morgana, who was still Morgan.

6:45

Jeez, it's so hard to remember who was around.

6:53

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But the characters

6:56

of our bar-going to Miami,

6:58

it seems to me that the highlights

7:02

that I come up with too,

7:04

when I think about going there now,

7:06

you were there quite a bit,

7:08

like probably the fall, before I was there in the spring.

7:10

But actually, when we got there,

7:13

and I'd ride with Joan, we were directed

7:15

to the Lesbian Task Force and Maryanne as well.

7:18

Through Martha and Lucy,

7:22

they'd give us Maryanne's phone number.

7:24

But you had already been part of the Task Force

7:26

and were they doing any kind of political action?

7:29

Or what was the formation

7:31

of the Task Force's purpose,

7:33

did you have, was there anything

7:36

that you recollect that you were all organizing

7:38

for other than just bring yourselves together?

7:41

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No, and NOW weren't really already

7:43

politically motivated to do anything

7:44

except to grow more lesbians

7:45

and be bigger and do more fun things together.

7:52

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So it was a...

7:57

Would you consider socializing as lesbians

7:58

coming together as lesbians in community,

8:02

a political action?

8:03

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Oh, absolutely anything that I do as a lesbian

8:06

is a political statement.

8:09

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But yeah, sure it was a political action

8:12

and just creating those spaces

8:15

is a political action.

8:17

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Excellent, yeah, so yeah I agree with you.

8:19

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And we did, we had art shows on the river walk.

8:21

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Now you talking about my time,

8:29

because when I came, after Joan and I arrived,

8:30

and we arrived into this huge, huge circle of lesbians

8:33

and, in, and it probably was

8:38

in the beginning of May of '76.

8:40

I'm sure you were there,

8:44

Maryanne and Louise were there.

8:45

I didn't sense that anyone was a leader either,

8:46

except that I sensed that they were organizing

8:48

for Dyke Pride Week.

8:50

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Yes.

8:54

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Can you say more about that?

8:56

So you were organizing for a special event,

8:57

and it wasn't gay pride.

8:59

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No, no, no, we didn't want to do gay pride,

9:01

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Say more about that.

9:04

How did they come to be?

9:05

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Well I had spoken to them

9:07

about Lesbian Pride Week in New York,

9:09

and that we had split off from the gay men completely,

9:11

and we demanded that we walk first

9:15

in the parade too, in the New York, lesbian.

9:19

We called it the Lesbian and Gay Pride Parade.

9:22

And the lesbians marched first,

9:26

because we were tired of being behind the men

9:29

and the men really didn't represent, who we were.

9:31

They would get all dressed up in their costumes

9:37

is what I call them.

9:42

Their drag queen costumes and carry on

9:44

on their roller skates with their feathers and boas,

9:48

and that was not us.

9:51

We were the dykes.

9:54

And so we did that.

9:55

We organized and decided

9:58

we were not going to march with them.

9:59

We were going to do our own march, and they followed.

10:02

And so, when it came to gay pride time down here,

10:05

it was the same thing, I mean Miami

10:09

really didn't have a Gay Pride parade.

10:12

Fort Lauderdale did, but there was really

10:17

not much Gay Pride going on in Miami.

10:20

And we decided that we were going to have

10:24

a Lesbian Pride Week of all different kinds of events.

10:26

And we had a dance, I remember we had a dance.

10:32

And we had the art show.

10:33

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And No Man's Band played.

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Um hm.

10:37

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It was an all women's band called No Man's Band.

10:38

I remember that dance,

10:41

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Is that your recollection as well?

10:42

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Yes, yes, and we just,

10:45

I remember I organized.

10:52

I wanted to just be around lesbians

10:56

all the time, I still do.

10:58

So I had heard that there was going to be

11:00

a bluegrass festival on the grounds off of Coral Way,

11:04

and about in the 70s, not the year 70s,

11:12

but the streets, at a fairground.

11:17

And so I called up all the dykes that I knew

11:21

and I said, let's have a picnic

11:23

at this music bluegrass festival.

11:26

It's free to get in and we'll just make our own.

11:29

And I made a big flag.

11:33

And I stuck it in the ground.

11:36

And all the dykes knew to come looking for the flag.

11:38

And they did and I got great pictures.

11:42

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What'd the flag say, or what was it, colored?

11:44

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It was lavender and purple

11:46

and it had women's, double women's symbols

11:48

all over it in the stars of the stripes.

11:50

And everyone knew to come there

11:54

and there must have been about 25-35 of us,

11:58

and we just sat and listened to their music

12:03

and everybody brought food and just had

12:06

our own little, little bluegrass festival there.

12:08

And soon our important political action

12:11

was creating our own space as lesbians.

12:13

And you were to continue some of this

12:16

and bring some of your knowledge

12:20

and wisdom from New York, and your spark.

12:21

Because during that week, I also remember

12:24

that there was one evening of, like arts, music,

12:26

presentations, and movement.

12:32

And I remember Morgana dancing or moving

12:35

and Suess who did some kind of, you know,

12:37

could have been Tai Chi or some kind of movement

12:40

that was very mellow music-wise

12:45

and mellow, slow movements and we all

12:48

were in an audience kind of sense of watching.

12:51

They were, maybe, those are only two names

12:55

I remember but there were probably

12:57

four or five different modalities of movement,

12:58

and then we were in another room.

13:03

I think this was all at the YWCA.

13:05

And we're another room

13:06

and Joan happened to bring her guitar.

13:09

Now I don't know why Joan brought her guitar.

13:11

I don't know she sang anything or planned on singing.

13:13

Do you remember her singing anything,

13:15

or playing her guitar?

13:17

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No, I remember I was playing it.

13:18

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You borrowed her guitar,

13:20

and you went on with song after song after song

13:22

and everybody was glued to the fact that

13:26

except for Joan who was going, wow, that woman's

13:28

just taking a long time with my guitar,

13:30

but she didn't take it away.

13:32

You just kept going, and you had song

13:35

after song and lesbian songs.

13:37

You had carried songs in your pocket from some of them,

13:39

did you remember, if you sang any of yours, at that time?

13:42

I know you were singing friends' and Alix's.

13:46

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Yes, I was.

13:48

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Do you remember what other music you were singing?

13:49

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I might have been singing a couple of mine.

13:51

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I don't remember any one else doing that that night,

13:54

other than you, there might have been.

13:58

But you were the person that I remember

14:00

being the star attraction, so to speak.

14:01

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Hm, I'm trying to recall

14:05

if I remember anyone else playing.

14:06

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I know there was an opportunity

14:11

because it wasn't like Mindy,

14:12

and how would you call,

14:13

did you use your last name

14:15

or were you already Mindy Dyke at the time?

14:17

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I was already Mindy Dyke.

14:20

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So, as far as you recall,

14:22

you were the only one and as far as I recall

14:26

you were the only one who did any music,

14:28

sharing at that gathering.

14:30

Did you know, if any others knew those songs

14:32

and sang along?

14:34

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No, nobody knew them, nobody knew them.

14:35

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So musically speaking, did you think Miami

14:39

had not gotten on the wagon

14:42

of women's or lesbian music at the time?

14:45

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Yeah, that's what I thought,

14:48

because I didn't, even in the conversations

14:50

amongst the lesbians I didn't really hear them

14:53

speaking about women's music.

14:58

I didn't hear like Maryanne and Louise,

15:01

talking about women's music.

15:03

No one had really brought it up until I did.

15:06

I don't, I mean they may have, but I don't remember that.

15:12

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But not to your awareness,

15:15

because when you sang some songs

15:16

and you knew about Olivia and everything.

15:18

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Oh, absolutely.

15:20

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And you know Joan was distributing Olivia Records

15:21

in Miami when she arrived?

15:24

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No, I didn't.

15:25

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Joan and I were, she was the distributor,

15:26

I was her helper so to speak.

15:28

In San Diego, she got involved with Olivia

15:30

so when she came to Miami,

15:32

she continued to do Olivia Records.

15:34

Now we had a few of them, we had Kay Gardener

15:38

and you knew of Kay Gardener from...

15:39

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(in unison) New York.

15:41

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And you know Alix from the same place,

15:42

and your knew Olivia.

15:45

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And I knew of...

15:46

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Lewis Williamson, Meg Christian at the time,

15:49

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And Lucy and Martha, because they were

15:52

on that same album from the New York women.

15:55

And I was there when they were recording that.

16:00

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So you were there when Martha and Lucy arrived

16:02

at the Miami Lesbian Task Force too.

16:04

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Yeah.

16:08

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Were you there then before they came back to Miami?

16:09

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I believe so.

16:12

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I'm thinking you were too.

16:13

I believe so, I remember running into them

16:15

and thinking wow, that's really far out.

16:18

You know, I didn't even know that they were down here.

16:20

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My story goes that I was living in San Diego

16:23

and Joan and I pulled up to Las Hermanas,

16:26

the woman's coffeehouse.

16:29

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I was there.

16:30

Not when we were there.

16:32

No, no but I have pictures of me there with Meg Christian.

16:33

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Really?

16:37

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At Las Hermanas.

16:38

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But that was much years and years later.

16:39

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Ah that was...

16:41

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The '80s then, somewhere in there.

16:42

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No, no, in the 70s.

16:43

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No kidding.

16:45

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I was absolutely there in the 70s,

16:47

it was the first year that I went to Michigan.

16:49

It must have been...

16:56

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'78 or '79, '77?

16:57

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Maybe '77.

17:02

Well 1975, in the fall,

17:03

there was a music festival in San Diego.

17:06

Hardly anybody knows about Holly nearly wrote about it.

17:08

But we also had a very close access to LA

17:11

and we went to meet Ginny Berson

17:16

and Joan decided to distribute Olivia Records.

17:19

And so we were doing it all over San Diego.

17:24

All of a sudden she came to Miami

17:26

and no one, I agree with you

17:27

that no one that we connected with in Miami

17:29

at the time at least knew of Olivia Records,

17:32

knew of Kay Gardener, we bought Alix Dobkin,

17:35

and we would play it loud,

17:39

Joan would play it loud at Joyce's house,

17:42

when we started living at Joyce's house

17:44

and she'd just blast, she'd just blast,

17:46

all over Alix Dobkin's records

17:48

and she had the one where she changed the cover.

17:50

So it was probably the first album or something

17:53

but it wasn't the one

17:54

that she had to change

17:55

the cover because-

17:56

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Yeah.

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Woodhul didn't like the dykes

17:57

on the cover or something?

17:58

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Yeah.

18:00

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Look, Living with Women.

18:00

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Living with Women, yeah.

18:01

Or is it Living with Lesbians?

18:03

Did she do Living with Women

18:05

or Living with Lesbians at the time?

18:07

I don't know, that's a good question.

18:10

I think was Living with Women.

18:12

Or Lavender Jane Loves Women.

18:13

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Lavender Jane Loves Women.

18:14

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That's it.

18:16

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We found it through Ms. magazine in San Diego,

18:17

San Diego when we're living there.

18:19

And we ordered it right away.

18:21

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Yeah, I knew, Alix before the album came out.

18:22

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Was she out already then too?

18:27

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Oh yeah.

18:29

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And how did you meet her?

18:29

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At the...

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Just to backtrack here.

18:32

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At the, there was a lesbian group

18:33

that was a spinoff of the Gay Activist Alliance.

18:37

And it was like the Lesbian Committee

18:42

of the Gay Activist Alliance.

18:44

And again, we were not satisfied with being,

18:47

you know, behind the boys.

18:50

So we split off from them, and we became LFL,

18:52

Lesbian Feminist Liberation.

18:57

And we met in the same place that the boys met,

19:01

which was at 99 Wooster St. in Soho in old,

19:04

it was called the firehouse because

19:08

it was an old firehouse and LFL met there.

19:11

And I met, Alix through that,

19:17

and then I started working on the lesbian switchboard.

19:21

And I would publicize all of her concerts.

19:24

Anytime anybody called, we had a huge calendar

19:27

on the wall and we would tell them

19:32

what was going on for lesbians in New York City.

19:34

And so I became good friends with her

19:39

because I was publicizing her concerts.

19:42

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And did you know Martha and Lucy back then,

19:46

or just because of the album?

19:47

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No, I knew them because

19:49

they used to be there all the time.

19:51

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So they were there all the time too?

19:52

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Yeah, and and all the women

19:54

who sang on that first album

19:56

of the lesbian collective, yes,

19:59

were they are all the time.

20:02

They sang all the time.

20:05

So when you went to Miami,

20:06

did you meet any of these lesbian performers

20:07

or did you, have that, or did you,

20:09

you were just inspired by them then

20:12

because you brought music to Miami?

20:13

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Right, but I knew them all.

20:15

I knew them all because we met every Sunday,

20:18

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So you were probably one of the largest influences

20:21

on I'm bringing live, lesbian music to Miami.

20:27

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Oh absolutely, or recorded.

20:31

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Because,

20:33

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Okay.

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They didn't know about the recordings either.

20:36

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So is that something that you got

20:38

an opportunity to share in holding gatherings?

20:40

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Absolutely.

20:42

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You brought records too, who did you bring?

20:43

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I brought whatever was out at the time.

20:45

I had the Chicago and New Haven

20:48

Women's Liberation Rock Band,

20:53

the album was already out.

20:55

Alix's album was already out.

20:57

The Changer and the Changed, Chris Williamson

20:59

was already out.

21:02

Meg Christian, I know You Know was already out,

21:04

and the New York group of women's collective--

21:07

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So you brought all this music to lesbians in Miami?

21:12

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Oh, yeah, and then, Fran's music and poetry.

21:15

I brought her books down.

21:18

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Yeah, I remember getting a book from you.

21:20

Yeah, You Know Me by My Teeth, I think it was called.

21:23

Is that what it was, her first book?

21:26

Her first book was worth Dyke Jacket.

21:28

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Dyke Jacket, yes.

21:29

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Yeah.

21:31

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Yeah, actually, that was her second book.

21:32

Her first book was--

21:34

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You Know Me by My Teeth?

21:35

Wasn't that one of them?

21:37

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No.

21:38

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Okay.

21:40

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What was it?

21:41

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I'm thinking of the gal in California.

21:43

-

Okay, Fran's, anyway so you brought some of this art.

21:45

Yes, the culture of lesbian culture.

21:50

And if anyone doesn't think

21:55

that that's political and radical.

21:56

I don't know what is.

21:58

Now I'm just going to do a pause to track two.

22:00

-

Aw right.

22:04

-

So when we're getting into the future thoughts here

22:07

did I say future?

22:11

-

Um hm.

22:15

-

Our future that began in Miami

22:16

of a different time of our lives.

22:19

How old were you when you went to Miami, anyway?

22:21

How old were you?

22:24

-

I had just turned. 22.

22:25

-

Okay, yeah September so you went there.

22:29

You got the job, did you apply

22:31

from New York, by the way?

22:34

-

No we just came down,

22:35

me and my two best friends from x-ray school.

22:37

We lived with my parents who were already here.

22:41

And we found jobs.

22:44

The problem was in New York, there were no jobs.

22:48

Too many x-ray tech schools let out at the same time

22:51

and the New York Times was on strike.

22:55

So between all of that, we had no jobs

22:58

and we had to move back to the dorm

23:02

that we were living in

23:03

because we were no longer students.

23:05

-

Had you been to Miami before?

23:08

-

To visit.

23:10

-

Your parents moved down there.

23:11

-

Right so we came down on on spring break, all of us.

23:13

-

Did you ever discover lesbian culture in that time?

23:18

-

No, not at all.

23:20

So now you know you're going to be

23:22

permanently down in Miami, or you didn't know that yet

23:24

until you've got a job.

23:25

Did you contact lesbians and NOW,

23:26

before you got your job?

23:30

-

No, oh, yeah.

23:31

-

In other words did you know

23:33

you're kind of settled there

23:34

before you started searching for community,

23:35

you know what I mean?

23:37

-

Oh no, as soon as I got here

23:38

I started searching for community

23:39

because I knew that there were jobs

23:41

because my father was also an x-ray tech

23:43

and he used to mail me the Sunday want ads

23:46

from the Miami Herald.

23:51

And there wasn't one job or two jobs,

23:52

there was three columns of jobs,

23:55

as opposed to no jobs in New York.

23:59

So when we came down here,

24:01

we went and applied at different places

24:03

and people, the hospitals were so interested in us

24:06

because we trained at a very well-known school.

24:11

We trained at Cornell University in New York.

24:14

So they knew we had a good education.

24:17

And so, we would apply one hospital

24:22

and then go to the next one

24:25

and tell them that we were offered a position

24:27

and how much they were paying.

24:30

And the next place would up up the price.

24:32

We'll pay you 20 cents more an hour

24:36

and we'll pay is 40 cents more an hour.

24:39

So we went from no jobs to hospitals fighting over us.

24:42

I mean it was wonderful.

24:47

So the three of us got jobs in different places.

24:49

And we did that so that we could meet more people.

24:51

Now my two roommates were straight.

24:57

They certainly knew about me

24:59

and accepted me and love me.

25:01

But they were straight at the time.

25:03

One of them is still straight

25:07

and the other one has been

25:08

in a lesbian relationship

25:10

with the same woman for the last 35 years.

25:11

-

She live in Miami?

25:12

-

She lives in my apartment building.

25:15

That's Connie, right?

25:17

-

Connie and Lynn.

25:18

Well Lynn is who I went to school with.

25:19

Connie I also went to school with

25:22

but that's the straight one

25:24

that's in New York with twins.

25:26

-

There's two Connies?

25:29

-

There's two Connies.

25:30

Connie, Lynn's lover of 35 years,

25:32

so it's also an x-ray tech,

25:35

and she was the one who was working

25:37

with Lynn and Patti Jo West.

25:40

The three of them worked in the same hospital,

25:43

and my other roommate Connie,

25:46

was working with that Connie's lover named Lele.

25:49

And that's when we had the big party.

25:52

And everybody showed up

25:54

and all the dyke's you know, got to meet each other

25:56

and that was another way of meeting lesbians.

26:01

A whole different group of lesbians.

26:06

There was a whole different group of lesbians

26:09

in the medical field,

26:11

who did not participate in lesbian culture.

26:13

-

So lesbian culture, then how are you,

26:18

what's that line that you would call

26:20

lesbian culture and not?

26:22

Well, define the way they are saying they were not.

26:25

-

Right.

26:28

-

What are they--

26:29

-

Connie and Lele, really didn't have

26:30

that many friends and most of them were straight.

26:33

And in the medical field.

26:39

And yet they were lesbians, they were a couple,

26:42

they moved here from, they moved to Miami

26:44

from Michigan together.

26:47

And they wound up breaking up,

26:49

and Connie and Lynn got together

26:51

and they've been together for 35 years.

26:53

-

So define that difference that you're saying,

26:55

so, did you feel that the Lesbian Task Force

26:58

and NOW, that group of lesbians were,

27:01

what, more political or?

27:03

-

Absolutely.

27:07

-

How would you define that, the difference.

27:08

Just by feeling comfortable around lesbians.

27:13

Being dykes, being strong Amazons,

27:17

having read or now heard women's music,

27:22

being introduced to lesbian literature,

27:32

Naiad press.

27:35

-

Were you involved with NOW

27:37

or was it the Task Force that drew you?

27:38

-

Oh, it was the Task Force.

27:40

I wasn't a nowee-wowee.

27:41

-

A nowee-wowee, why?

27:43

-

Why, because I didn't feel

27:45

I had that much in common

27:48

with straight women, even though

27:50

I was living with two of them.

27:53

But that's because we had a different thing,

27:54

in common, we had the x-ray thing in common.

27:56

We lived together for two years in New York

27:58

in the dorm and they loved me and accepted me.

28:01

So that was different.

28:05

-

So you figured there was, and you've met,

28:08

a whole group of lesbians,

28:11

that revolved in your field in your work.

28:12

-

Yeah!

28:14

-

And you figured this was a less,

28:15

what was that word, you used?

28:17

A less what crowd than the Lesbian Task Force crowd?

28:19

-

They certainly were less aware

28:22

of any lesbian movement.

28:25

-

Are you including feminism in this, somehow?

28:30

-

Yeah, they weren't really involved

28:34

in any kind of women's or gay or lesbian movement.

28:36

-

Oh, any of them, okay.

28:43

-

The medical crowd that were gay and lesbians

28:45

certainly knew of each other,

28:50

certainly acknowledged each other,

28:52

maybe went to the bars together once in awhile,

28:55

maybe partied with each other but certainly not

28:59

in any kind of lesbian-feminist thought awareness.

29:06

-

Okay.

29:15

-

It was much more of the x-ray connection.

29:16

-

But it's also, but you also created spaces

29:20

that you were all together.

29:22

So you were still making connections

29:24

and community in some ways too, right?

29:26

-

Right.

29:28

-

And is that not again,

29:29

not a political action of some sort?

29:30

Oh sure, but I tried to intermingle.

29:32

-

Oh, you did?

29:35

-

Oh I did, I, you know, having Patti Jo in both places.

29:37

You know, being on both sides,

29:42

being in the x-ray lesbian side

29:45

and being in the circle of dykes

29:49

that I was hanging out with.

29:53

That opened it up more.

29:54

My roommates were hanging out

29:57

with the lesbians,

30:00

because the lesbians

30:01

would come to the house and hang out.

30:03

And so, you know, they felt very comfortable with them

30:05

because they felt very comfortable with me

30:08

and they're very open-minded women.

30:11

-

So besides this week of Lesbian Pride, Dyke Pride

30:14

and what's called Dyke Pride Week

30:19

or Lesbian Pride whatever it was.

30:21

And after that, what I recall is that

30:23

there was a dance once a month.

30:26

-

Um hm.

30:28

-

And it was organized by the Task Force.

30:29

-

Um hm.

30:31

-

Now somewhere in these months,

30:31

you met certain ones.

30:34

You were talking to Sandra Redwood

30:35

in a story about Sandra Redwood.

30:37

Was that in the earlier months

30:39

or was that later, later too?

30:40

-

Probably later, I think Sandra Redwood

30:43

was part of that but it was--

30:46

-

She was a part of when I met the Task Force.

30:48

-

But I was specifically talking about

30:50

we had gone over, either to Maryanne and Louise's

30:52

or to Mary Sims house.

30:57

-

So Maryanne and Louise, and Mary Sims,

30:59

as far as I'm aware they both open their homes,

31:01

so that if I wanted to go to a music night,

31:04

I could walk into Maryanne and Louise's house,

31:07

and there was a whole slew of lesbians

31:09

sitting there playing anything from pots and pans

31:13

to guitars and flutes.

31:15

Is this true?

31:16

Do you have that, the memories?

31:18

-

Oh, absolutely.

31:19

-

And did they do that more than one time?

31:21

-

Oh, all the time, you never knew

31:22

who was going to be there.

31:24

-

But they always had their home open.

31:26

-

Yes, and Lynne Blustein too,

31:27

which was a whole other group of lesbians.

31:30

That was a little bit later.

31:34

Okay that was more like in the late, late '70s

31:35

or early 80s.

31:40

But that was, but I remember Maryanne and Louise

31:43

being there at Lynne Blustein's house

31:46

and Patti Jo for sure, being at Blustein's.

31:48

-

I think you took me there and it was before

31:53

I met Barbara, so it must have been

31:55

somewhere in '78.

31:56

-

Um hm.

31:57

-

So Morgana moved up to Pagoda,

31:59

somewhere in there too.

32:03

-

Right.

32:04

-

And then I remember you coming over to my apartment,

32:06

and we were singing and I had the apartment

32:08

because that was after I moved away from Joyce's.

32:10

-

Tenant?

32:12

-

In her yard, and there's a lot of other things

32:13

probably in here, and Sandra Redwood

32:16

was someone that I was hanging out with

32:19

a little bit with Joan.

32:22

She was showing Joan and I how to harvest coconuts

32:23

and Mary Sims was telling us

32:25

how to pick up cans in the park or bottles

32:27

to make a little extra money on the side

32:30

because we were not working at the time.

32:32

-

Right.

32:34

-

And so, they both were helping us survive

32:34

even down in Homesteads.

32:37

Helise lived there and there was

32:40

this beautiful coconut tree

32:40

out in front of Helise's house

32:42

and she said come on down,

32:43

help me move some books and records and stuff

32:44

and she had records.

32:46

And she had records, I don't know,

32:48

did you remember if she was aware

32:49

of some of the lesbian and women's music

32:50

that you were?

32:53

-

Oh, absolutely.

32:53

-

Really, and did you know her through the Task Force?

32:55

-

I believe that she and I met in New York,

32:58

in upstate New York.

33:01

-

Really?

33:03

-

Right around Woodstock, I think.

33:03

-

So did she come and migrate to Miami too or...

33:05

-

Yes.

33:09

-

Ooh.

33:10

-

And I just spent time with her,

33:11

right before we came here,

33:14

going through some of her records.

33:16

-

No way.

33:19

-

Yeah, so they were old ones too, like--

33:19

-

Yes.

33:20

Like you knew and so you had.

33:22

-

Yes.

-

Did you ever know that at the time

33:24

that you had this in common, when you met?

33:26

I think Helise was there the night

33:28

that we met you and Joan.

33:31

-

I think so too.

33:33

-

And I think Helise played some music on that guitar.

33:34

-

You may be correct, and she might've had her own.

33:37

-

Yes.

33:40

-

She had her own guitar

33:41

and she had had her own songs she wrote.

33:42

-

Yes.

33:43

-

Oh, you think she was there that, you know,

33:44

-

I do.

33:46

-

That's very strongly possible,

33:47

I'll check in with her about it too.

33:48

I will check in with her about it, wow.

33:49

-

I just spent time with her.

33:53

-

Getting rid of those records,

33:55

so she had some of the older records too.

33:57

-

Yeah.

33:59

-

Wow, wow, huh, your collections were similar.

34:00

-

Yeah.

34:04

-

She trying to go through stuff I know now isn't she?

34:05

-

Yeah.

34:08

-

Hard job, she has Susan's stuff,

34:09

and she's got Sherry Cooper's stuff

34:11

and she's got her own stuff.

34:16

And she's considering moving out West,

34:18

to Arizona, New Mexico.

34:20

-

Yeah, she's thinking about that.

34:23

-

She's trying to get rid of it,

34:25

because she's got stuff in different rental warehouses.

34:27

She's got like three different ones, yeah.

34:34

-

Alrighty, so we're at the Task Force,

34:39

and then there was some point in time

34:42

that this co-group that Joan and I met.

34:44

Morgan, Morgan, not Morgana.

34:47

Morgan, Una, Justine and they were all

34:50

staying in Joyce's house.

34:52

-

Right.

34:54

-

And they were all from up in the northeast,

34:54

but they, and through somehow,

34:57

and I think Louise Griffin was on one side of the road.

34:59

Louise Caseon was on another side of the road,

35:03

and being in the medical profession,

35:06

there were several in the medical profession,

35:08

Ingrid was another one.

35:10

And they all seem like very powerful lesbians

35:11

in the Task Force.

35:13

However, there was a split that happened.

35:15

Do you remember that?

35:18

Do you remember there was a split

35:19

in the lesbian Task Force?

35:21

-

No.

35:24

-

Yeah, one of the reasons was

35:25

that to be in the Task Force

35:28

you now had to become a member of NOW.

35:30

And some of the lesbians,

35:35

like the ones I just mentioned

35:36

were resisting being members of NOW,

35:38

and yet some of them already were members of NOW

35:41

and they were not resisting it at all.

35:43

They figured well, we're members of NOW

35:44

and we have a Lesbian Task Force.

35:46

But nothing like that came up to you?

35:48

-

I don't ever remember that.

35:51

-

Okay.

35:56

-

It might have happened.

35:57

-

It did happen, yeah.

35:58

-

I don't, I think I was probably a member of NOW.

35:59

-

Did you split from my Miami, at some point in time

36:04

and then come back?

36:08

-

I did.

36:09

-

Was that earlier on then?

36:11

??? Years perhaps or no, later?

36:11

-

I left for less than one year.

36:15

In at the end of 1978,

36:20

and in the winter of '78

36:27

I was in New York.

36:30

I moved back to New York

36:31

and I moved back to Miami in the fall.

36:34

-

Okay.

36:42

-

So before this time, when I had my apartment,

36:43

you came over one time and you asked me,

36:45

well, there were two things

36:47

that I remember, adventures with you.

36:49

Wanna go see Donna Summer?

36:50

Let's smoke a doobie

36:52

and go on up to see Donna Summer.

36:54

Which was Donna Summer,

36:56

and all that music was happening

36:57

in particularly at Sebastian's.

37:00

-

Right.

37:02

-

And many of us to go to Sebastian's

37:02

and dance to disco.

37:04

-

Yes.

37:06

-

And disco and Donna Summer we're synonymous, hot, hot.

37:07

-

Yes, then another time you came and said,

37:10

there's this place called Pagoda.

37:13

-

Um hm.

37:16

-

And how did you hear about Pagoda?

37:17

And what was that year.

37:20

Do you remember that year,

37:21

you were going to tell me to see,

37:21

we're going to go up to see

37:23

Berkeley Women's Music Collective.

37:24

We're going to see the opening of Pagoda,

37:25

I believe it was the first time

37:27

there was any performance.

37:28

We saw Morgana do belly dancing.

37:29

You wore balloons.

37:31

You wore balloons.

37:33

We saw Flash and Pandora.

37:36

We saw the Berkeley Women's Music Collective.

37:38

Those were the particular highlights that I remember.

37:40

-

I think Flash called me and told me about it.

37:42

-

Flash called you?

37:45

-

I was very, very good friends

37:46

with Flash and Pan, in New York

37:48

And I think Flash called me to tell about it.

37:52

-

So you stayed connected

37:55

as you both all moved to Flo--

37:56

-

Oh yeah, we're still all connected.

37:58

-

Yeah, I know that's right.

37:59

-

Oh, yeah, and especially now with Facebook.

38:01

I mean, we Facebook each other,

38:04

at least once a week.

38:06

But yeah, so Flash and I are connected

38:08

in really special ways..

38:12

-

So it wasn't through Morgana,

38:14

and that whole experience

38:16

that you knew that she had started

38:18

or was part of the founding of Pagoda.

38:19

It was Flash that got you up to Pagoda.

38:21

-

I don't think so.

38:23

-

And it would be you Deanna, Ramona and me,

38:25

the four of us and I think it was wasn't my car

38:28

I didn't have none.

38:31

-

No, it was my car.

38:32

-

Was it your car?

38:33

-

We all drove up, stayed at the motel and had

38:34

a marvelous experience at this place called Pagoda,

38:38

the theater, and there was all this music-making.

38:43

-

Yes.

38:46

-

Wonderful.

38:47

-

Yes, I still have pictures of that.

38:48

-

I have the couple pictures on the beach,

38:50

do you have others in that?

38:52

-

Yeah, I think i have pictures

38:53

of the Berkeley Women's Music Collective

38:54

-

Oh wow.

38:56

-

And I'd heard them in Michigan.

38:58

-

See, I heard them at that,

39:02

I was talking about the San Diego Music Festival,

39:04

years ago, in the fall of '75 that's, they were there.

39:06

They were there too, with many of the other performers

39:12

but that was amazing, and it was amazing to see

39:15

Flash and Pandora they were just amazing musicians

39:18

and powerful,

39:20

Flash was, powerful, powerful singer.

39:22

And it was just amazing.

39:25

You are just delighted to share this,

39:27

as well and, you know, hearing the music

39:29

and everything else and being at Pagoda.

39:31

And I think you and I went up several times

39:33

or at least one of them that I remember.

39:36

-

Oh, I remember going up with Nancy and Barb,

39:37

and you and me.

39:41

-

When we did our performances at Pagoda

39:42

and being upstairs in that loft

39:44

and having to climb down the ladder

39:47

to go to the bathroom and Barb said,

39:49

"Can't we just pee out the window."

39:51

(chuckles)

39:52

-

Yeah, but you took me there one other time to see

39:53

Linda Shear too, whom I'd known from Chicago.

39:57

And you knew Linda Shear from where?

39:59

-

Michigan.

40:02

-

From Michigan, too.

40:03

-

Her lover, Trina was a sign-language interpreter.

40:04

-

Ahhh, and the connection there too came.

40:10

-

Yeah.

40:12

-

For you.

40:13

-

Yeah.

40:13

So you kept connection with Pagoda, how?

40:14

Because I didn't have that connection

40:18

to know Linda Shear was going to be there.

40:20

How did you stay connected to Pagoda?

40:21

-

Probably Morgan.

40:23

-

Through Morgan, yeah, okay, yeah.

40:25

So, Michigan, you went up in '78,

40:29

I know that.

40:33

-

Yeah, I, my first one I'm pretty sure was

40:34

'70 either '76 or '77.

40:42

-

And were you were there for the first?

40:47

-

I think so that's why I think it was '76.

40:51

And I think it was the first,

40:55

it was on the old land for sure.

40:56

-

So it's was the '78 one, '78 was on the old land.

40:59

But yeah, you had been there before.

41:01

-

Yeah,

41:04

-

'78 because you tell a story--

41:05

-

I had been to the old land

41:07

for at least three festivals.

41:09

Because I remember three different things happening.

41:12

-

Well there's a story that you tell

41:16

about a woman that's passed away.

41:17

Did she pass away in Miami?

41:20

-

It was my friends, grandmother.

41:24

-

A grandmother, passed away in Miami?

41:27

-

No, in New Mexico.

41:29

My friend, who used to live in New York,

41:32

moved to New Mexico.

41:36

Her grandmother passed away.

41:38

And she wanted to bury her on women's space.

41:41

And so she put her in a blue wooden box

41:47

on top of her truck and drove her to Michigan.

41:54

And when I found my friends in Michigan,

41:59

at the festival, she told me that her grandmother

42:02

had passed and I remember her telling me stories

42:05

about her grandmother for years.

42:09

And she said were going have a little ceremony,

42:12

you know, to bury her.

42:15

And so I thought, you know she had the ashes or something.

42:19

And she said we're going to meet

42:24

at this particular spot at midnight.

42:26

And would you be part of the ceremony?

42:29

And I was honored, of course, sure.

42:31

Well, as I started getting closer and closer

42:34

something started smelling worse and worse.

42:38

And when I got there,

42:42

I said oh my god, what is that smell.

42:44

And she said oh that's Granny.

42:47

I said, What do you mean it's Granny?

42:49

I said, you didn't bring

42:52

your dead grandmother here, like in one piece

42:57

did you, she said, "Yeah, on top of the truck."

43:02

I said, oh Sue, Oh my goodness,

43:06

I mean you can smell it for miles.

43:10

And we did, we buried her grandmother.

43:13

-

It didn't bother you though, did it,

43:16

that that was the case?

43:18

-

Well, it didn't bother me that we were doing it.

43:19

But the smell bothered me.

43:23

But nothing else bothered me about it.

43:23

-

So, yeah, I mean you have some amazing stories

43:26

in your whole life and in Miami.

43:31

What, is there any highlights

43:34

in those days of '70s and '80s?

43:35

-

Oh absolutely, the day, that Sandy McFarlane ,

43:38

the night that Sandy McFarlane ,

43:41

had a flat tire on her Volkswagen

43:43

on 17th Avenue and 69th Street

43:47

in the heart of Liberty City.

43:50

And there were at least five cars

43:53

making a dyke caravan,

44:02

and none of us had a jack.

44:04

-

Five cars and no jack, wow.

44:06

-

Five cars, no jack, lots of dykes.

44:08

Lots of spare tires but no jack.

44:11

And so, we all pulled over,

44:15

got out of our cars and held up

44:18

the back end of the woman's Volkswagen in mid-air.

44:21

until she changed the tire.

44:26

Because she had a tire iron.

44:30

She just didn't have the jack

44:31

to pump it up with.

44:33

And we stood there in the middle of the street

44:36

and cops were going by, just like screeching

44:39

to look by didn't stop to help,

44:42

they just would stop and look and keep going.

44:44

But that had to be one of the funniest things

44:49

that and we decided we were really hot one Sunday.

44:52

And we wanted to go swimming.

45:00

So, Maryanne and Louise knew of this entrance

45:02

to Miller Lake, before Tropical Park was ever built.

45:07

Miller Lake, went from Miller Drive to Bird Rd.

45:12

And there was this man-made lake.

45:17

And so, we all drove over there,

45:22

parked our cars, took off our clothes,

45:26

and we're jumping into the lake.

45:29

And there must have been 15 naked dykes in the water

45:31

when the police showed up.

45:36

And they're like,

45:39

You ladies are going to have to

45:41

get out of that lake.

45:43

And we're like, we're not getting out

45:45

until you leave, we'll leave.

45:47

But we're not coming out of this water

45:49

until you go, oh god it was so funny.

45:51

We laughed, for hours and days

45:56

about when we got caught in Miller Lake.

45:59

And then another time.

46:02

I don't know what we were looking for

46:04

me and Maryanne and Louise were driving on Bird Rd.,

46:07

like in around Galloway and 87th Avenue

46:11

or something I don't remember

46:17

what we were out there looking for.

46:18

But we pulled into this strip mall.

46:20

And there was a Jamaican restaurant there,

46:23

that's not where we were going, though.

46:27

And in the window, there was a sign that said

46:29

We sell Jamaican Moon Pies.

46:33

And Louise said to me, "What's a Jamaican Moon Pie."

46:37

And I said, I don't know.

46:40

But it was broad daylight,

46:43

I pulled my pants down and I said,

46:45

but this is a Jewish moon pie.

46:47

And she laughed till the day she died.

46:49

Even when she was dying, literally I said.

46:53

-

You want to hear that story?

46:58

-

You wanna see a Jewish moon pie, Louise?

47:01

-

Oh, you showed her your Jewish moon pie.

47:03

-

I showed her your Jewish moon pie.

47:05

-

Aww, my god.

47:07

-

May she rest in peace,

47:08

she did get to see my Jewish moon pie.

47:09

And I must say that Louise's

47:12

passing was another event

47:15

that was so devastating.

47:18

But yet, so incredibly lesbian.

47:21

There were, sometimes in her room, 30 - 40 lesbians

47:26

in this hospice nursing center.

47:34

And she was never alone as she was transitioning

47:42

and she knew we were there.

47:49

And Maryanne felt like she could go home

47:52

and get some sleep because she knew

47:55

Louise wouldn't be alone.

47:56

Yeah, you know, we took turns in shifts,

47:58

Maryanne, on my end, myself

48:01

and another friend of ours, Amal.

48:03

We were just all there, all the time.

48:11

-

Do you recall when Maryanne and Louise

48:13

decided to open Something Special?

48:15

-

I do.

48:18

-

Yeah?

48:19

-

Yes, I do.

48:19

-

What was the circumstances around that?

48:20

-

It was just about the same time

48:21

that I was trying to open Bagelgrams.

48:24

-

Oh, really?

48:27

-

And Eli was opening up a new Zum Alten Fritz.

48:28

So all of us were involved in these new adventures

48:33

-

Was that before or after Charlotte being involved

48:38

in the Women's Preservation Society.

48:42

Do you remember that?

48:43

-

Yes.

48:44

-

So this was, Something Special

48:45

came after the Women's Preservation Society.

48:46

-

Yes, yes, and I went to them to ask them about

48:49

do I report this to the taxes

48:57

or you know how to how they do it, what should I do.

49:02

What about licenses.

49:07

-

This is for your business?

49:08

-

For my business because

49:09

they had just started Something Special.

49:11

And they were open for lunch.

49:15

I remember, on Wednesdays, and Thursdays or something.

49:16

And I was taking some classes

49:23

at Miami Dade North and I would leave there

49:25

and come over and have lunch with them.

49:29

They would fix me a big ole salad.

49:31

And they stopped doing that

49:35

but they would do, they were doing that

49:38

and take out orders, at that time.

49:40

So that had to be...

49:43

Ah, God I don't even remember.

49:49

I was working 11 to seven.

49:50

-

I think I have that written down somewhere

49:52

about when they started Something.

49:54

-

I was working, I know I was working

49:56

11 to seven, because I would get off work,

49:59

and drive up to Miami Dade

50:03

and take that class and then stop back there,

50:06

eat lunch and go home and go to sleep.

50:10

And I don't remember where I was working.

50:14

-

How about the Bizarres?

50:16

Oh yes, the Bizarres, they were fun.

50:18

We would just set up

50:22

in the backyard of Something Special.

50:25

Tables and racks and you could buy anything,

50:28

exchange anything from sheets to close to crafts.

50:32

I remember Lilly doing massages.

50:38

-

Oh yeah.

50:40

-

Lilly was doing the massages

50:42

-

And her massage chair.

50:43

oh they were fun, they were fun times.

50:48

-

Yeah, a sackful of those.

50:51

-

Yeah.

50:53

-

Yeah and then I had that moment I was thinking about

50:54

Charlotte doing this Women's Preservation Society

50:57

and I forget which, somewhere near Bird Rd.

50:58

-

Yes, it was off Bird Rd.

51:00

-

And Charlotte came into your life too early on.

51:02

I recall you being with Charlotte, somewhat.

51:06

I don't know how exactly, and how--

51:08

-

I met Charlotte.

51:12

-

She came to the Task Force too,

51:13

she was involved?

51:15

-

Yes, she came to the Task Force.

51:16

And we started talking.

51:19

And then we exchanged phone numbers,

51:23

and I remember our first sort of date.

51:27

We had gone bike riding or something.

51:40

And I hurt my ankle.

51:43

And she came over the next day to see

51:47

how I was doing, she came over to my apartment.

51:51

I was living with Connie and Lynne.

51:54

And she had biked over

51:56

and wound up making love that day,

51:59

and we were together for about three years.

52:05

-

Oh.

52:07

-

And that was interesting times, to say the least.

52:08

-

She had a whole other perspective

52:16

too when she named this group

52:18

Women's Preservation Society.

52:20

What I think, I remember about that,

52:23

is that what she wanted to do again

52:26

was create a community space.

52:28

-

Right.

52:30

-

For lesbians to have meetings,

52:31

and to do display their arts, their crafts

52:32

and have music-making and so on.

52:36

Do you remember anything else

52:39

about the Women's Preservation Society,

52:40

because it didn't last very long.

52:42

And that was always something

52:44

that Louise would say,

52:45

and I don't think,

52:47

I don't know if it came before or after

52:48

the Friday night, women's group.

52:49

I think it came after Friday night women's group,

52:53

but I'm not sure.

52:54

-

I think it came after Friday night women's group

52:56

-

But every time Louise would say something like,

52:57

something ended, something else began,

53:00

something ended and something else.

53:02

Because the Task Force itself,

53:03

I don't recall it lasting very long,

53:05

and when the split happened.

53:07

I remember Mary, we going over to Mary Sims

53:09

and doing, arts and crafts,

53:11

still continuing to do some music-making

53:13

at Louise and Maryanne's or somewhere else.

53:16

I think Sandra McFarlane house

53:21

was also a place of lesbian activity.

53:24

-

Yeah, she lived up the hill by the Orange Bowl,

53:26

-

Somewhere in there, yeah, yeah.

53:29

So I think some of the shifts

53:32

always took place and then it was

53:34

hard to know where to connect with lesbians again

53:36

but softball also was a place.

53:39

-

Yeah, down by Ruby Grove they called it, Grooby Grove.

53:41

And one of the lesbians I met at Women Writes,

53:45

Deb, Debbie, can't recall her last name at the moment,

53:47

but she ended up knowing, Patti Jo.

53:52

-

Debbie DeMars?

53:56

-

No it wasn't Debbie DeMar.

53:58

I'd have to look her name up

54:01

but she was a softball player.

54:03

Butch as can be, just a young,

54:05

young guy-looking softball player

54:06

and she thought softball was maybe not as political

54:09

and organizing is radical.

54:12

However, I tend to think that--

54:16

-

You're not thinking of Diane Shepherd?

54:17

-

No, I'm thinking of a Debbie, Debbie.

54:18

I'll get you a picture out later

54:21

to see you know who she was.

54:22

She couldn't remember you,

54:25

but she remembered Patty Jo very well

54:26

because Patty Joe organized a lot of the baseball.

54:29

-

Oh, her and Carol Cotton.

54:31

-

Yeah, and not only around the area of Coral Gables

54:34

but also up in, when she moved

54:38

up towards Fort Lauderdale way.

54:39

So I'm seeing about,

54:41

maybe I'll do it one more time.

54:45

So, it seems that Patti Jo was also a shaker and mover.

54:47

-

Oh yeah, but definitely around the softball courts.

54:52

-

And you remember Blackies.

54:59

-

Oh, absolutely.

55:01

-

But you remember Sebastian's, remember Tops.

55:03

-

Oh yeah.

55:05

-

The Nook, did that close after a while?

55:06

-

Yeah I recall, and was there anything,

55:08

what do you remember about Blackies specifically?

55:11

-

Well, 'cause you I were there,

55:13

we'd go to Blackies.

55:15

-

She had a couple of different places.

55:16

-

The first one, upstairs.

55:18

-

Right, on Coral Way.

55:18

-

Right, well she, she was

55:21

also involved in the Cherry Grove.

55:23

-

Ahhh!

55:27

-

She was a bartender there.

55:28

-

So downstairs, that was downstairs.

55:30

-

Yeah, on 17th, on 17th Avenue,

55:31

across from way you used to live.

55:37

-

I know about what you're talking about now, yeah.

55:39

-

And then she opened up the place with the upstairs.

55:41

And then when that closed, she moved it

55:44

to off of, it was on Southwest Eighth Street.

55:49

A little bit south of Lejeune.

55:54

-

Yeah, I went to a wedding there.

55:56

Now I remember that you performed at Blackies,

55:58

the little one upstairs.

56:02

And you sang, you brought your guitar.

56:03

And again, you were singing songs.

56:06

And I don't know if it was a special evening

56:09

I don't recall how that was put together.

56:11

But I remember that Blackies was first bar

56:14

I knew that that played women's lesbian music

56:16

on the jukebox.

56:20

-

Yeah because Tops wasn't doing it.

56:23

-

No, Josh wasn't doing it.

56:25

Tops was strictly for let's go dancing.

56:27

-

I remember that freaky looking clown like at Tops.

56:30

That's what I remember most about Tops,

56:34

was that they had this clown-like

56:36

that was just scary looking.

56:39

It was a lamp.

56:41

How about Lou's Back Door.

56:44

-

Oh my god, yes, Lou's Back Door,

56:46

-

And were you around for that time when Louise?

56:47

It was some incident that happened, based on

56:53

race and lesbian, Louise being a black woman,

56:55

lesbian being up there, and something about that.

57:00

I don't recall the details,

57:04

but I remember several of us saying

57:06

well we weren't going back to Lou's after that.

57:08

Remember anything about that?

57:11

That plot's starting to sound familiar

57:13

because I remember not going there anymore.

57:15

Yeah, we all some of us stopped going there, because--

57:18

-

And that would certainly not surprise me

57:21

because racism really wasn't tolerated by any of us.

57:24

Do you remember any other incidences

57:30

about that with lesbians specifically,

57:32

that occurred that you are aware of?

57:34

-

In Miami?

57:37

-

Um hum.

57:38

-

Around the lesbians that we knew?

57:42

I mean, you remember, Mary Sims getting arrested?

57:48

She was driving down the road with Judy.

57:52

-

No.

57:54

-

She had an arrest tacked onto her

57:56

and Louise got in jail for carrying a pocket knife.

57:57

-

Yeah, I remember Louise.

58:00

Yes, I remember that.

58:01

-

What do you remember about that?

58:06

-

Oh, gee.

58:07

-

But you remember it happening?

58:09

-

Yeah, I do.

58:10

-

But you don't remember the details,

58:11

the details are kind of--

58:13

-

But I don't remember

58:15

Mary Sims and Judy getting into something.

58:16

-

Yeah, I don't know if it was just Mary

58:19

or Judy went to jail too, I'm not sure.

58:20

-

Well I remember Judy going to jail but it wasn't for that.

58:21

-

Yeah, I heard about that later on (laughs).

58:24

Okay, so what else could come to your mind

58:29

and if you want to just let this rest.

58:32

There's a lot here and we can elaborate

58:34

and share as we go along.

58:36

As I kind of put this together

58:39

some other things might come up

58:40

and you say, hey add this, or whatever,

58:41

you know, or call me and say hey this is--

58:43

-

Yeah, I'm trying to think if there any--

58:46

-

Highlights that brought me into

58:48

a sense of politics and political connection

58:50

that you felt were building your self-esteem as a lesbian.

58:54

-

Well certainly, Anita Bryant.

58:58

-

Ah, say more about that.

59:01

cause I don't know anything about--

59:02

-

Anita Bryant cannot be left out.

59:04

-

Tell me, what time period was that?

59:05

Seven, eighties, wasn't it?

59:07

-

No, it was, it was in '78, I think.

59:09

-

Okay, that would make sense.

59:13

-

And that was when we were trying

59:15

to get the legislation passed in Dade County

59:18

to, what did we call it, it will come to me.

59:26

-

Yeah, but how did you get involved?

59:36

-

Charlotte and I were still together.

59:39

-

Okay.

59:42

-

And a lot of the lesbians

59:43

within the Task Force, Scabby.

59:45

-

Scabby! Oh, wow.

59:49

-

And Mary Beth.

59:50

-

Yeah.

59:51

-

Etta Cemino.

59:52

-

Etta. Oh wow.

59:54

-

Yeah.

59:56

-

Charlotte, myself, Marianne, Louise,

59:58

a bunch of us worked on the phone banks,

1:00:03

calling up registered Democrats.

1:00:06

And as has been, explaining--

1:00:08

-

But how did you get the ball rolling

1:00:11

these phone banks, how did that all get formed.

1:00:13

Do you have any thoughts, knowing about that.

1:00:16

You just heard about it and you went over?

1:00:18

-

Yeah, Jack Campbell, who was the owner

1:00:20

of the gay man's baths,

1:00:27

was also running for city council, okay.

1:00:30

And he organized a lot of it.

1:00:35

And he had a lot of the money.

1:00:39

-

Okay.

1:00:42

-

And paid for a lot of the phone banks

1:00:43

that were set up.

1:00:46

Mostly, there was a gay men's like hotel

1:00:48

on Biscayne Boulevard and in the 50s.

1:00:53

I think it was 5500 Biscayne or something like that.

1:00:59

And that's where one of the phone banks was.

1:01:03

And we would go out there at night

1:01:08

and called registered democrats

1:01:09

and explain the referendum to them.

1:01:11

Because if you voted no, you were voting yes

1:01:13

and if you were voting against the gays you voted no,

1:01:19

it was a horrible referendum.

1:01:24

But I remember Charlotte and I

1:01:27

following a car that was putting up posters,

1:01:31

against the gay people.

1:01:37

And we were like one block behind them

1:01:41

and as they would put it up, we would pull it down.

1:01:43

(laughing)

1:01:46

And every single one that they put up,

1:01:47

We pulled down until they figured it out.

1:01:49

And then they started chasing us.

1:01:52

Oh, we were really scared that night

1:01:55

that we were going to get killed.

1:01:58

-

Um, um, um.

1:01:59

-

Because they, it took them a long time

1:02:00

to figure it out and then when they did

1:02:05

they figured out that everything

1:02:07

that they had just done for the last three hours

1:02:09

was in the back of our car.

1:02:12

But you'd be sitting in a traffic jam,

1:02:16

like at five o'clock going home from work,

1:02:20

which was bumper to bumper and you could be

1:02:23

on A36 or an hour trying to get home from work.

1:02:25

And the person in front of you would be

1:02:31

the person who was in front of you for an hour

1:02:34

with a bumper sticker that would say,

1:02:36

kill a queer for Christ,

1:02:38

or the only good gay is a dead gay,

1:02:40

and you'd be sitting behind them

1:02:43

for a fuckin' hour?

1:02:45

It was insane.

1:02:47

And that was a very hot political time yeah.

1:02:51

It was when I was working at Jackson for sure,

1:02:56

positively, and remember, we were talking yesterday

1:03:01

I think about, oh no, this morning.

1:03:06

You were resting and Beth and Robin and I

1:03:09

were talking about having a little powwow

1:03:12

with people at work.

1:03:15

When you just needed that extra bit of support

1:03:17

from people who understood you.

1:03:20

Robin was saying that there was

1:03:25

a Jewish group of women that would powwow

1:03:26

with each other when they needed

1:03:30

that support from each other.

1:03:32

While I was working at Jackson

1:03:34

and all of the gay x-ray techs

1:03:37

would go into this little tiny bathroom.

1:03:40

And we would have like a gay hug.

1:03:43

And then we would come out

1:03:45

and go and do more work and then

1:03:47

somebody else would say,

1:03:48

Okay, time for the gays to hit the bathroom again.

1:03:50

We'd all go in and hug each other.

1:03:54

The faggots and the dykes, it didn't matter,

1:03:56

We just would go in

1:03:59

and and hug each other and come out.

1:04:00

-

Wow. And some needed.

1:04:02

Yeah. Because the political climate,

1:04:06

everywhere, it was everywhere.

1:04:10

The doctors were talking about it.

1:04:12

The patients were talking about it.

1:04:14

Everybody, it was all over the news.

1:04:17

It was really a very hot climate in New York.

1:04:19

-

In New York and Miami.

1:04:23

-

In Miami, about that.

1:04:26

And the night of the vote,

1:04:27

I was at the Fontainebleau Hotel,

1:04:30

waiting for the vote to come in.

1:04:33

And I was there by myself.

1:04:36

I was sitting at a table.

1:04:39

And on the table was a platter of olives

1:04:41

and pickles and, and those kinds of things.

1:04:47

And this reporter came up to me

1:04:52

and he stuck his microphone in my face.

1:04:55

And he said, "And what do you think about this,"

1:04:58

and I grabbed a pickle,

1:05:01

and I shoved it in his face and said,

1:05:02

and what do you think about this?

1:05:04

And the cameraman, got it.

1:05:07

And the next day I remember going to work,

1:05:09

and one of the radiologists,

1:05:12

one of the doctors came up to me.

1:05:14

She's still a friend of mine

1:05:17

and I just spent time with her

1:05:18

these holidays with her.

1:05:20

And she was married to a cardiologist,

1:05:23

who also worked at Jackson,

1:05:28

and she said Mindy, you know what happened last night?

1:05:30

I was sound asleep.

1:05:32

And my husband woke me up,

1:05:35

he said "Margie, Margie, look at the TV",

1:05:37

and I opened my eyes and there you were.

1:05:39

On television sticking a pickle in some man's face.

1:05:42

And my husband said "Isn't that Mindy?"

1:05:46

And there you were.

1:05:48

Why were you on TV sticking a pickle in some man's face?

1:05:50

And I said, Well Dr. Sanders,

1:05:54

if they fire me, you know why.

1:05:57

And I told her, you know,

1:06:00

I was there against Anita Bryant

1:06:02

and she said, Oh Mindy, they love you too much here.

1:06:03

They're not gonna fire you over anything.

1:06:07

And to this day, we are still friends,

1:06:09

I worked with her somewhere else.

1:06:14

After that, many years after that.

1:06:16

And we're still very, very dear friends.

1:06:19

-

So how did you feel then when that film came out?

1:06:22

-

Oh I was devastated.

1:06:24

-

Yeah.

1:06:26

-

I was just devastated, I felt like,

1:06:27

how can these people buy this crock of crap

1:06:28

from, you know, and who the fuck was Anita Bryant.

1:06:35

And we boycotted, woman-cotted Florida orange juice.

1:06:38

She lost her job.

1:06:45

-

Oh yeah.

1:06:47

-

She lost the endorsement.

1:06:48

-

Yes.

1:06:49

-

And you couldn't get orange juice

1:06:51

in a gay bar in Miami for years.

1:06:52

-

Yeah.

1:06:56

-

For years, forget about ordering a screwdriver

1:06:57

or any drink that contained orange juice

1:06:59

and there was signs everywhere in every gay bar.

1:07:03

Men's bars, women's bars, bike bars, dyke bars.

1:07:06

It didn't matter with orange, and the no sign,

1:07:12

the international no sign, no oranges.

1:07:17

And a lot of people did not know

1:07:22

that Florence Henderson

1:07:24

was almost as much involved with that

1:07:26

as Anita Bryant, but her name was not out there.

1:07:30

And she was in that television show,

1:07:34

The Brady Bunch, and her co-actor,

1:07:38

her husband in that show

1:07:42

was actually gay and wound up dying of AIDS.

1:07:46

And she basically had this change of heart

1:07:50

and started, you know trying to support

1:07:55

AIDS movements and stuff.

1:07:57

But that was way after she was right alongside

1:08:00

Anita Bryant, trying to kick us into the ground.

1:08:03

-

Um um um.

1:08:06

-

So I've never been Florence Henderson fan either.

1:08:07

-

I don't remember that because

1:08:10

Brady Bunch was a little after, wow.

1:08:12

-

Wow.

1:08:15

But yeah, you can't talk about Miami and any kind--

1:08:16

Spitzer, Mindy - interviewed by Barbara Ester

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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