Smith, Pam - interviewed by Barbara Esrig / Southern Lesbian-Feminist Activist Herstory Project / Duke Digital Repository

Interviewer

Today is December 14th, 2012.

0:02

And I'm interviewing Pam Smith in Gainesville, Florida.

0:07

Hi Pam.

0:11

Pam

Hi.

0:12

Interviewer

So I've known you for a long time.

0:14

Pam

Years.

0:16

Many years, probably 30.

0:18

Interviewer

30 years.

0:19

And I know that you've been an activist,

0:21

a lesbian feminist activist for a long time.

0:23

And I was hoping that you would tell

0:27

how you came to the lesbian Southern,

0:31

each part has its own little story, activism.

0:39

Pam

Well, I moved to Gainesville

0:47

from southern California when I was in my early 20s.

0:49

I was married, and I came with my husband

0:52

for him to go to graduate school in psychology

0:55

at the University of Florida in 1968.

0:59

And we had been mostly hippies in California,

1:04

but he came to Florida because of the,

1:12

it had the only humanist psychology program

1:17

in the country in '68.

1:20

And so, people came from all over the country

1:21

to go to that program.

1:24

And we had already been kind of

1:27

borderline activists in California,

1:32

things like going to be-ins and putting flowers in the guns

1:34

of the cops that were around.

1:41

And the Watts riot had happened.

1:43

So we were involved in just being,

1:49

our consciousness was already being raised by those events,

1:55

by the racism involved with the Watts riots

1:59

and the antiwar movement.

2:03

So when we got to Gainesville,

2:06

I felt like I was going from the center of the universe,

2:08

i.e. California, to way on the periphery.

2:12

This seemed like Podunk.

2:17

I had a major culture shock in '68 coming to the South.

2:19

So the first year I was here, 1968,

2:29

well, we came in August of '68,

2:31

it took me a while to really bond with this place.

2:39

Interviewer

Tell me what Gainesville was like in 1968.

2:44

Pam

It was fairly small.

2:47

I think there were 50,000 people in the city,

2:48

including the university.

2:52

But of that, there was a huge population

2:56

of alternative people.

3:00

Tom Petty was here doing music.

3:05

It was very music-oriented,

3:07

very just alternative.

3:11

I went to an antiwar march in Washington DC

3:12

some time in '69, one of the big marches,

3:21

and there were a whole lot of people

3:24

from Gainesville that went.

3:25

It was beautiful, that was one of the things.

3:29

But it took me a while to care about its beauty, frankly.

3:31

I was more in culture shock with people.

3:38

I didn't immediately, well, I was 22 for one thing,

3:44

maybe I was 23 by then.

3:49

I was 23.

3:51

I was in a world where

3:54

I was peripheral to the graduate students

3:56

because I was a wife, that's pretty peripheral.

3:59

I was only 23, I had two little kids.

4:05

It took me a while to make my own world.

4:08

And so, I was living in student housing.

4:12

So I only had other student wives as cohorts.

4:17

I couldn't go to school myself

4:23

because you had to live in Florida a year

4:25

to be able to go to school,

4:28

to get in-state tuition,

4:32

so the first year, I really fumbled around.

4:34

So that was '68.

4:44

By somewhere in '69, I was able to go to a free university.

4:45

It was called The Free University,

4:51

and it was set up by all the alternative people.

4:53

And the people could give classes.

4:57

And I took a bunch of classes,

5:00

but I took one in civil rights.

5:03

I also took one in Black literature.

5:09

I remember that.

5:13

But in the civil rights class, one day,

5:16

the professor told us the next week,

5:20

there were women coming from Women's Liberation,

5:25

the Women's Liberation Movement,

5:27

and they wanted to meet with only the women

5:30

and there would be another class for the men

5:32

but this group wanted to meet with the women.

5:35

So this was 1969.

5:41

Interviewer

Where was this university?

5:43

Pam

I believe we met either at the,

5:47

wow, I can picture the room but I can't picture.

5:51

I think we met at the Reitz Union,

5:54

which was part of the University of Florida.

5:55

I think they gave The Free University space.

5:57

There were like 50 classes for the university,

6:02

there were lots.

6:06

And it was literally free and anybody could go,

6:07

and it was really as serious as a regular class.

6:11

We definitely were expected to keep up with our homework.

6:15

I don't think, it wasn't as serious as having

6:18

papers and tests,

6:21

but we definitely had to keep up with stuff.

6:23

So I went to this meeting, this class

6:26

that I was already going to, civil liberties or rights,

6:29

I don't remember exactly what they called it,

6:34

and Judith Brown and Carol Giardino

6:36

and I think one other person who I can picture

6:41

and I don't remember her name came

6:43

and there were probably 10 or 12 of the women from the class

6:47

meeting with them.

6:53

And they did a consciousness raising group,

6:55

and I'd never heard of that before.

6:58

And they described what they were gonna do,

7:00

which was speak only from your own experience.

7:02

That was really the ground rule.

7:12

And be as honest as you can be

7:14

with yourself and with others.

7:16

And their first topic was, they did two topics that night,

7:19

and they said we're gonna go around

7:23

and you're each gonna speak

7:24

only your personal experience with this topic.

7:26

Don't say anything about what you've read.

7:30

Don't say anything about what so and so experienced.

7:32

Just speak about your own.

7:36

And the first topic was,

7:38

have you wanted your male partner to be smarter than you.

7:43

And we all went around.

7:50

And I felt a major aha about having always been attracted

7:52

to men that were very smart and very, yeah.

7:58

So we went around and did that,

8:06

and I definitely got an aha.

8:08

The next topic was, do you want,

8:10

in your household, if you're with men in your household,

8:14

do you do more of the housework than they do.

8:18

And I had done 100% of the housework.

8:23

And so, as we went around and I heard

8:26

other people's personal experiences

8:30

and talking only from that,

8:33

I was kinda blown away.

8:36

They left us with literature to read about those two topics,

8:39

and for all I know, in general,

8:43

but I remember reading literature about those two topics.

8:45

By literature, I mean things that they had written

8:48

and other women that were starting to think like this.

8:51

And they gave us contacts for if we wanted to join a group.

8:55

I went home and shared this with my husband,

8:59

who was his own radical self,

9:04

but this was all brand new to all of us,

9:08

this Women's Liberation.

9:12

And it was pretty threatening to him.

9:14

Interviewer

What part?

9:20

Pam

Well, I don't think the smartness was threatening.

9:22

I don't think he understood it at all,

9:26

but I don't think it was threatening.

9:28

But the fact that these women were talking about

9:29

everybody doing equal work at the house.

9:33

There were so many parts to this.

9:35

I realized I was doing everything.

9:40

I was making all the food, I was doing everything.

9:42

And he didn't work, he was a student,

9:47

but I was also being a student.

9:49

Interviewer

And a mom.

9:57

Pam

And I was a mom.

9:58

So that started kind of a rift between us

10:00

because I started kind of demanding

10:05

that he do some of the work.

10:10

So that was my first opening.

10:18

So then I joined a women's consciousness group,

10:20

and that was just incredible.

10:23

The women were extremely serious about

10:26

trying to find all sorts of topics,

10:29

and this whole thing about

10:31

speak only from your own experience was gigantic.

10:33

They felt like we had to really,

10:35

the only way to find out the truth

10:43

was to go to our own experience and not

10:45

to go to anything that was written

10:48

because we really couldn't trust things that were written.

10:49

And this fit perfect with my hippie point of view too,

10:55

which was don't trust the,

10:59

to really change all the structure of the society in general

11:02

so it fit, it dovetailed perfect.

11:05

Meanwhile, there's a whole other life going on

11:09

of being extremely expansive relationship wise,

11:12

which is part of the hippie thing really,

11:17

was to be experimenting with love in general.

11:19

Interviewer

Open relationships?

11:26

Pam

Open relationships.

11:27

It was just all part of trying to change the way we were,

11:29

change our consciousness from how we were raised.

11:34

Interviewer

Was this group still at the university

11:37

or has it relocated?

11:40

-

By this time, it went into,

the Women's Liberation thing was really

11:42

never university-based.

11:45

They just had come to the civil rights group

11:46

to spread their word.

11:50

But when I joined a consciousness raising group,

11:52

we met in homes.

11:54

And it wasn't university-based at all.

11:55

If anything, these women were pretty distrustful of

11:57

anything that had to do with the old structure,

12:05

whereas The Free University had been kind of half-half,

12:08

these women were way over to the edge.

12:12

There were lesbians in this group,

12:16

and they were starting to

12:19

question the women who were with men.

12:22

They were starting to,

12:24

the whole thing about sleeping with the enemy.

12:27

So by now, we're in '69, '70, starting into '70.

12:31

I don't remember.

12:35

And that was

12:38

conflictual, I think, for me.

12:43

I was married.

12:45

I was pretty hetero, I was very heterosexual.

12:47

But intellectually, I completely got

12:54

this sleeping with the enemy thing.

12:57

And men weren't changing very rapidly.

13:00

The cool ones were trying to change.

13:03

All the women that I knew

13:06

who were with men were with cool men.

13:09

But the men, it was just that they were losing a lot.

13:14

We were gaining a lot.

13:18

So it was hard in those days with that.

13:20

And I think it stayed hard for a decade or two.

13:24

For all I know, it's still hard, I don't know.

13:27

But that was pretty hard.

13:32

I moved, well, so in the first activist thing I did,

13:34

if you call activist being

13:38

to spread the word beyond your own little self,

13:40

they asked me from my Women's Liberation group

13:45

if I would give a speech on the Plaza of the Americas

13:48

at the university against a man

13:52

who was running for the Supreme Court

13:56

and he was a racist, misogynist.

13:59

And I don't even remember his name.

14:05

I'm pretty sure it started with a T.

14:06

And he did not get into the Supreme Court.

14:07

But there was a big movement against him

14:10

being in the Supreme Court.

14:12

So that was my first speech I ever gave, was against him.

14:14

And that was pretty scary.

14:17

Interviewer

And who was there?

14:20

Who was in the audience?

14:22

Pam

I think it was a pretty big audience.

14:23

Probably mostly University of Florida students.

14:26

Interviewer

So they called for a demonstration?

14:28

Pam

Yes, yes.

14:32

At that time, there were lots of these kinds of things

14:33

on the Plaza of the Americas.

14:36

Abbie Hoffman had come that year with Burn This Book.

14:39

-

Steal.

14:45

-

There was just a.

Steal This Book, right.

14:46

Steal This Book, right.

14:48

There was just a whole lot of that.

14:50

And we were, the Women's Liberation people, women

14:52

were just part of this program.

14:57

This wasn't a Women's Liberation program.

15:00

We were just asked to also present why he was bad for women.

15:03

So I had that role.

15:09

Meanwhile, I kept up all my antiwar activities,

15:14

but I was now more conscious of how women in that movement

15:17

were doing the secretarial work.

15:21

It was always men who were the spokespeople.

15:23

And I was just becoming more and more conscious.

15:27

My husband and I split up during that time,

15:31

but I think that did not have to do with this.

15:33

I think it was, I know it didn't have to do with this,

15:37

because actually we split up

15:41

because I went with another man.

15:42

And so, that was part, more of the whole, whatever,

15:44

the free love thing, and I fell in love with another guy

15:49

and left my marriage and eventually married that second guy

15:53

and moved to Colorado

15:57

for him to do an internship in psychology.

16:01

Out there, I was with, I immediately looked for the women

16:05

who were in consciousness raising groups,

16:09

and there, the women I met up with were more middle class

16:13

and I didn't think that the consciousness raising

16:19

was nearly as deep

16:21

and I felt pretty lonely out there

16:22

for the depth that I'd gotten in Gainesville.

16:25

I did make some friends,

16:31

but I never did any actions out there

16:34

for Women's Liberation.

16:37

They were just more, they didn't talk nearly as deeply

16:38

as the women in Gainesville had talked.

16:44

They weren't adamant about really changing everything.

16:46

They were a little more like, I don't know,

16:51

it was very half-assed.

16:54

When that man and I split up two years later,

16:57

I moved back to Gainesville.

17:01

And that was in '73.

17:05

I did my last year of college and finished that.

17:10

And then, I graduated in '74,

17:14

I was walking on Southeast Fourth Avenue

17:17

within a month of graduating,

17:20

and I saw a sign that said that there was a feminist,

17:22

I don't know if it said feminist

17:27

because feminism, that word didn't come into very much use

17:28

until at least mid-70s, I didn't like that word at first.

17:32

It seemed to take away from women's liberation actually.

17:36

It seemed more like those middle class women

17:40

I'd known in Colorado.

17:43

But anyway, there was a sign about a women's health,

17:45

a Gainesville women's health center that was opening,

17:50

and I knocked on that door and somebody came to the door

17:54

and I said, "I want to work here."

17:58

And they said, "Oh, I'm sorry, there's no jobs here."

18:00

And I said, "That's okay, I'm going to work here,

18:02

"I'll do anything, you don't have to pay me."

18:05

And so, they said okay

18:08

and they invited me to come to a,

18:12

a night of looking at your cervixes.

18:16

And so, that's the first thing I did there.

18:19

Interviewer

So how long had it been open?

18:21

Pam

It hadn't been open.

18:22

It wasn't open yet.

18:23

So I went to the night of looking at your cervixes,

18:25

which I'd never done anything even close like that,

18:29

but these women were back to like I wanted.

18:32

They were serious about consciousness raising.

18:36

Interviewer

And who were those women?

18:42

Pam

Those women were Joan Edelson, Betsy David,

18:42

Candice Harrington, Byllye Avery, and Judy Levy.

18:48

Margaret was very peripheral, she never was.

18:56

Interviewer

Margaret Parrish.

19:01

Pam

Margaret Parrish.

19:02

I think she did social stuff with them,

19:03

but she was never a hands-on person.

19:05

Within a month, they hired me to work in the front office,

19:11

which was mainly answering the phones and stuff.

19:13

Within another month, I was a counselor for women

19:16

that were going to have abortions.

19:19

From the very beginning, they wanted to have

19:22

a very homey atmosphere, very not like a doctor's office,

19:27

but very beautiful, they were into beauty.

19:34

They wanted it to look beautiful.

19:38

They wanted it to be homey.

19:39

And they had first trimester abortion services

19:41

and well-woman care.

19:47

Some of them had gone out to somewhere, I think California,

19:50

and met with the people, I think it was women in Los Angeles

19:55

who first were doing women's abortions themselves.

19:58

They had been doing abortions themselves actually,

20:04

but now when abortion became legal,

20:08

they had doctors doing it.

20:12

So we were part of that.

20:14

I think we were, within the first year,

20:16

I think Gainesville had women-run abortion clinics

20:19

after it became legal in maybe '73 it became legal.

20:24

So this was '74 and we were doing our own, running it.

20:29

And we were in charge.

20:35

The doctors were hired and came in to do the abortions,

20:36

but they had absolutely, they had to do it

20:40

exactly like we told them to do it.

20:43

That was a huge part of it.

20:47

We ran our own health center.

20:50

Interviewer

So in '74, which doctors were coming?

20:52

Pam

They were coming from Jacksonville.

20:56

Joan or Betsy had connected with.

20:59

Interviewer

Was Joan McTigue part of the group?

21:07

Pam

No, not yet.

21:08

This was Joan Edelson.

21:09

She was really the mover and shaker at this point.

21:12

She's a little extreme, a little kinda crazy,

21:15

extremely bright.

21:22

And Judy Levy and Byllye knew, were best friends

21:25

at the university.

21:28

And Betsy is someone they met,

21:33

she was a nursing student,

21:36

and Candice was also a nursing student.

21:38

And so, they, somehow they went to the nursing school

21:40

to find women who could help run this new school,

21:43

and Betsy and Candice jumped onboard.

21:46

I think Betsy did first and then she got Candice.

21:49

And they had been meeting, probably for at least six months

21:53

before I came because they'd gotten a building,

21:57

they'd connected with the doctors

21:59

who were gonna come in and do the abortions.

22:01

In the beginning, the doctors were,

22:07

I guess they were residents in the school.

22:10

I can't remember if the first doctors were residents

22:13

or if they were already out, they were gynecologists.

22:16

But they were men.

22:22

I don't even remember in the beginning

22:24

having a woman doctor.

22:25

We were able to get women doctors from the university here

22:28

to come to the well-woman care,

22:31

which we did three nights a week.

22:32

And we did abortions on Saturdays.

22:34

Friday night, the women would come in for counseling,

22:37

and Saturday, they would have their abortion.

22:39

And they met, an individual counselor was with them.

22:42

First, they went through a class,

22:46

in which they had to learn breast exam.

22:48

We had little kinda like consciousness raising classes

22:51

for the women.

22:57

And they met with their counselor individually

22:59

who made sure that this was their personal decision.

23:01

If anybody said that their boyfriend or their father

23:04

wanted them to have an abortion,

23:08

we were always, whoops let's stop right here.

23:10

You may do this because you may want to,

23:13

because you want to please your father, that's fine.

23:16

That, I have no trouble with.

23:19

But you've got to own this as you're doing this

23:22

because you want to,

23:24

even if it's to satisfy somebody else's needs,

23:26

but you cannot be doing this

23:30

because somebody else told you to.

23:32

There's many other options,

23:34

and we'll help you figure that out.

23:36

But you have to feel like,

23:38

well, even though this isn't everything I want,

23:40

I do want this.

23:45

And then we were with them during the abortion.

23:48

And we were major into education and empowering

23:50

and having women feel like

23:54

this was a positive experience for them

23:56

even if it had an enormous amount of sadness,

23:59

which it didn't for everybody.

24:02

Plenty of women did not have any sadness with it.

24:05

It was inexpensive.

24:10

We kept it as cheap as possible.

24:11

Interviewer

Do you remember how much it was back then?

24:13

Pam

I think $150.

24:15

And Medicaid paid for any woman who was poor.

24:20

So the running of the center was all done by consensus.

24:25

We did have a board of directors.

24:30

Because Judy and Byllye and Joan

24:33

and I guess Margaret was on the board,

24:37

but they didn't work at the health center.

24:38

So there was always a bit of a separation

24:43

between the board and the women who ran it.

24:45

All of these women were still straight.

24:50

I don't think, I mean, we had lesbians working there,

24:54

but we were all straight.

24:57

Everybody I said there was straight.

24:58

Interviewer

And were there nurses and counselors?

25:00

Pam

Candice was a nurse.

25:02

And yes, there were nurses and there were counselors.

25:04

We tried to, we had meetings constantly

25:08

trying to make our decisions about how to run things,

25:10

although the board had separate meetings

25:13

doing a bigger overview of things.

25:17

I don't remember what the big issue was the first.

25:22

Can I remember?

25:27

Oh god, yes.

25:28

We had a woman who hired on

25:29

either in the front office or as a counselor or both,

25:33

Deborah David, I believe her name was,

25:37

who was a radical black women's empowerment person.

25:40

And she was a power, she herself was extremely powerful.

25:49

And she wanted the health center to go

25:54

much more in the direction of helping black women.

25:57

And she wasn't really a women's liberationist.

26:03

She didn't think white women needed that.

26:07

She was very strong in that.

26:12

Well, the board, Deborah started having quite a lot of power

26:16

at the health center.

26:20

And the board really felt threatened by this,

26:24

and they laid down the law basically.

26:27

They had all the real power.

26:34

And was I on the board at this point?

26:37

I don't think I was on the board at this point.

26:42

But I have to say I was on their side in this.

26:45

So they shut down the health center for a day,

26:51

called each person in individually,

26:53

and went over the mission.

26:56

And either you agreed with the mission,

26:59

which was a women's liberation mission,

27:01

really nothing to do with black liberation,

27:04

and you either agreed with that or you left.

27:10

And I believe they fired Deborah when she didn't agree

27:15

to agree to that.

27:20

Interviewer

And what was it that she wanted them to do?

27:21

Pam

You know, I can't remember exactly.

27:24

She was, oh boy.

27:30

In those days, we had just long meetings over everything,

27:32

and Deborah was always kinda

27:35

undermining the women's liberation point of view.

27:37

And it really was more subtle than specific.

27:43

I don't remember if she wanted to have

27:49

a men's clinic, for instance.

27:51

I don't remember what her specific demands were

27:53

or even if there were demands.

27:56

It had to do with a subtle thing about power,

27:59

and her way was definitely different

28:03

than a specific women's liberation way.

28:07

And she was undermining that.

28:12

Interviewer

And that was like the beginning of

28:14

sort of a split between the African-American women

28:15

and then white women.

28:19

The women wanted, they wanted their men to,

28:20

they didn't want to be the sole working person.

28:29

They wanted their men to be more involved in the family,

28:36

and white women wanted them to be less involved.

28:40

Pam

Yeah, we were coming from different.

28:44

And we couldn't yet talk very well.

28:46

And I have to say in this case, we're at 19 probably 75

28:50

or maybe 76, I doubt it was '76 yet though.

28:56

We really didn't have a way to communicate well,

29:03

and I think it was because we had real different goals.

29:07

So there was a lockout.

29:11

Those women were locked out,

29:14

and then the center was only locked for a couple of days

29:19

but then the board had control again

29:23

and we went forward with this.

29:27

And then I got on the board of directors

29:33

somewhere along in there because

29:35

they decided to have more workers on the board.

29:36

Then we did a big, big conference.

29:40

Interviewer

Was there any repercussion from it?

29:44

Pam

No, well.

29:45

I only know the side that stayed with the health center,

29:49

and in that, there was no repercussion.

29:52

There was more peace, actually.

29:54

I think a couple of other women left,

29:58

but not very many women left and went with Deborah.

30:01

And I don't know what she ended up doing.

30:04

I think she went to law school actually.

30:06

Then we had a big national, we hosted a big national

30:10

women's health conference, and this is significant

30:15

because of the lesbian component.

30:18

So to plan that, there was a planning committee of which

30:20

the health center was kind of the center

30:25

but there were other women from other parts.

30:29

Gerry Greene, Rosalie Miller were both strong lesbians,

30:31

and they were in a lesbian women's

30:37

consciousness raising group.

30:39

Meanwhile, all the straight women at the,

30:45

by this point and this is '76,

30:48

in April of '76, we had the conference,

30:52

so we were probably planning it by summer of '75.

30:55

And all the straight women that were planning it

31:00

with the lesbians who were planning it,

31:04

all were getting more and more drawn to lesbians.

31:06

We were listening to Lavender Jane by Alix Dobkin.

31:10

We were all just opening to this possibility.

31:15

And now, sexuality seemed a little more fluid to us.

31:20

We were like, oh, maybe we aren't just straight.

31:23

Maybe we could be, we would never have said homosexual,

31:29

but maybe we could be lesbians.

31:35

It just was starting to dawn on us

31:39

that this was a possibility.

31:41

And we were all then planning this huge health conference

31:44

where thousands of women were going to come

31:48

from all over the country.

31:50

And I personally was in charge of the speakers.

31:53

And we got Rita Mae Brown, we got Phyllis Chesler

31:56

who was Women and Madness, we got Pauline,

32:01

what was Pauline's last name, it started with a K.

32:05

Can't remember.

32:08

We got Barbara Ehrenreich.

32:09

And I got to be the one communicating with all those women

32:12

and getting them to be our big speakers.

32:18

Meanwhile, we were also planning

32:22

workshops for all through the conference.

32:26

We got workshops on lesbians

32:30

and straight women working together.

32:34

We had one of those done every single session.

32:36

We got somebody who was an activist

32:39

for prostitutes in San Francisco to come

32:42

and talk about feminists and Women's Liberation, women

32:44

who were involved in that.

32:48

-

It was COYOTE, wasn't it?

-

I think, I don't know.

32:51

It was the beginning.

32:53

I'm not even sure that had formed yet at that point,

32:55

but maybe it had.

32:58

So we were gonna go to the edge with women's issues.

32:59

So all through this process, we were working with,

33:07

we meaning the women I was with,

33:10

with the women's health center,

33:12

were working with the lesbians on this

33:13

and that radicalized us in that direction.

33:17

-

How are you advertising?

33:20

-

Every one of us

became a lesbian.

33:21

Every one of us, I think.

33:23

Well, Judy Levy didn't become a lesbian.

33:25

But I don't think she was ever with a man again.

33:29

Byllye Avery became a lesbian.

33:33

Betsy David became a lesbian.

33:34

I became a lesbian.

33:37

Candice became a lesbian.

33:38

I can't even, I can't think of any of us

33:42

who didn't become lesbians.

33:44

Vicky, I think she was, I don't remember if she,

33:46

I think she was straight, she was the photographer

33:51

and she got with Betsy, what was her name, another Betsy.

33:54

Anyway, we just all crossed over at that point in '76.

34:01

Interviewer

It was sort of an aha kind of thing.

34:07

Is that what happened or?

34:09

Pam

Yeah, I would say that.

34:10

I think most of us were really tired of the men in our lives

34:11

who were not really being able to raise their consciousness

34:17

as far as we were.

34:21

We were loving being with women.

34:22

Our whole lives were starting to circle around women.

34:25

And the lesbians were the, they were pretty attractive,

34:29

and their lifestyle was pretty attractive.

34:32

Interviewer

What was that?

34:36

Pam

God, they were much freer.

34:37

They seemed to have a lot more fun.

34:46

And they also seemed like they had higher consciousness.

34:48

And all that was our thing, was

34:52

still transforming consciousness as far as we could.

34:56

Now, for me personally,

35:01

I was pretty strongly heterosexual.

35:04

Another factor at this women's health conference

35:10

was that this was the first time that a group,

35:13

I think this was the first time, I'm sure it is actually,

35:16

the first time in the United States

35:19

where a group of women got together and talked about incest

35:21

and their childhood sexual experiences.

35:26

This was the first time ever.

35:31

And Gerry Greene and I led that workshop.

35:32

We were both child sexual abuse

35:35

victims, survivors, whatever.

35:39

So for me personally, and there's such a range

35:42

of what pulled people to lesbianism, who were straight.

35:46

You got this whole continuum of women who were lesbians,

35:51

knew it forever, women who were lesbians, didn't know it,

35:54

but recognized it as soon as there was a possibility

35:59

and support to recognize it.

36:03

But there is also a whole lot of women

36:05

who were truly straight who chose to be lesbians

36:08

because for whatever reason.

36:14

Some, it was for social and cultural reasons

36:18

and just had enough bisexuality in them

36:23

that they could make that switch.

36:26

For me personally, it was because I couldn't get completely,

36:30

because of my childhood sexual abuse, I couldn't get,

36:39

I never could be completely comfortable with men sexually

36:47

even though I was hot.

36:51

It's kind of a whatever, catch-22 there.

36:53

I was highly drawn, I was heterosexual,

36:55

I was very drawn to men

36:59

and was perfectly happy for whatever six months,

37:01

but I could never be completely intimate.

37:05

Once it got beyond the pheromones and got to true intimacy,

37:09

I couldn't be honest about myself really.

37:14

I was always ashamed, and I just couldn't do it.

37:18

And I couldn't be, this is another huge thing,

37:22

I couldn't be, my particular sexual abuse

37:25

was being forced from the age seven

37:30

to masturbate my stepfather.

37:33

So I couldn't be very giving sexually.

37:36

I could receive okay, but I couldn't be giving.

37:40

That was a pretty major obstacle.

37:48

So that was really my motivation to become a lesbian.

37:51

Then I thought that, well, maybe I'd be okay with women.

37:57

And then during that planning of the conference,

38:06

I fell in love with a woman.

38:09

I fell in love with Rosalie from a distance.

38:11

I mean, fall in love is probably too big of a word for it

38:13

because it wasn't reciprocated.

38:16

But I, man, I really really really fell for her

38:19

and wrote her a letter stating that,

38:23

and she very kindly wrote me a letter back

38:29

saying how sweet that was but I wasn't her type

38:33

and asked me if, was this how I was with men,

38:41

did I write letters to describe.

38:44

And then she had a talk with me during the conference

38:49

about that kind of thing.

38:53

And so, the next time which was just a few months later,

38:54

I became sort of attracted by a woman,

38:58

I took Rosalie's advice and just walked up and said,

39:02

or acted whatever, I don't remember,

39:07

but I did some kind of come on to that woman,

39:09

and sure enough, that worked.

39:12

So then I had my first sexual experience

39:14

with a woman.

39:17

-

And who was that with?

Pam

Mary, oh god, Mary Boynton, Mary Boynton,

39:18

who's pretty much sort of a jock and not very

39:23

conscious actually as it turned out.

39:26

But I was with her for a year.

39:29

And we lived in a big communal setting with men and women.

39:32

I was still raising my kids and all.

39:36

But then I realized that my problem,

39:39

my sexual stuff really went beyond men,

39:42

and so then I decided to try to be with men again

39:47

because really I was heterosexual.

39:50

And so then I went back to being with men.

39:54

But meanwhile, I was still working at the health center.

39:56

Interviewer

Can you say again about the conference?

40:00

Because I'm interested in the conference.

40:03

How you got people came.

40:05

-

It was fabulous.

Interviewer

Where you met, how you advertised.

40:08

Pam

We advertised all over the country,

40:13

and people came from all over the country.

40:16

Interviewer

How?

40:17

Because they didn't have computers.

40:18

Pam

No, we had no computers.

40:20

Oh, I didn't even think of that.

40:21

We sent out brochures.

40:23

We got money from somebody.

40:26

I'm trying to think, how did we have money for all of this.

40:29

Because we must have had to put out a fair amount of.

40:32

I think we must have gotten grants to do this conference,

40:35

but I can't picture where.

40:41

I wasn't in that end of it, the fundraising end of it.

40:43

But we must have had money

40:46

because we rented the Reitz Union,

40:47

we had the ballroom, we had.

40:51

Interviewer

It was at the university.

40:54

Pam

It was at the university.

40:55

And we had 20 conference rooms.

40:56

It was big, and we paid all these national speakers

41:01

to come and speak and we put them up,

41:06

well, we did put them up in our houses actually.

41:08

But we paid them.

41:11

These were very well-known speakers.

41:12

They were huge.

41:18

And Rita Mae opened it on Friday night

41:23

or whatever night, Thursday night, with her,

41:25

and she is hysterically funny

41:28

and she is such an out lesbian.

41:31

And that really set this tone.

41:34

And she was kinda radical at the time.

41:36

So she set the tone.

41:39

Interviewer

And hadn't she been kicked out of

41:40

the University of Florida?

41:41

-

And she had gone to

the University of Florida, yeah,

41:43

and yeah, she'd been kicked out.

41:46

And Rubyfruit Jungle was becoming one of the books.

41:49

I don't know how we got the word out.

41:51

We must have done it through the mail.

41:54

Interviewer

Was Lesbian Connection around yet?

41:58

Pam

Probably?

42:01

I would think, oh by '76, I'm sure it was.

42:04

That, but there were also feminist,

42:07

now they were called feminist women's health centers

42:10

all over the country.

42:13

The Boston Women's Collective was going.

42:15

We'd gone up, oh, that's how we got the idea

42:18

to do the women's health conference.

42:20

Betsy and Candice and I and Byllye,

42:22

the four of us went up to Boston

42:25

because the Boston Women's Collective

42:28

had had a weekend something,

42:30

a conference about women's health, radical women's health,

42:34

and we had gone to that.

42:39

The women who, oh gosh, Chisholm.

42:43

Interviewer

Shirley?

42:47

Pam

Shirley Chisholm was at that.

42:48

So we had gotten, we got the idea while we were in Boston.

42:50

Let's do a southern women's health conference.

42:54

But we had women from all over the country come to that,

42:57

thousands of women came to this.

43:01

Interviewer

And what was it called?

43:04

Pam

What was it called?

43:07

You'd have to ask Randi.

43:11

What was it called?

43:12

This is when Randi came into the picture, during this time.

43:16

She wasn't one of the planners,

43:19

but she came to this.

43:21

Lots of my, people who became my,

43:23

Randi Camion, lots of the women I became

43:26

very close friends with over the long run,

43:28

Marilyn Mesh, Lynda Lou Simmons,

43:32

they all came to this conference and got radicalized.

43:34

We just sent out written things all over the country,

43:43

talking about.

43:48

Southeastern Women's Health Conference,

43:49

I think is what it was called.

43:52

The Southeastern Women's Health Conference.

43:54

And it was three or four days long.

43:58

It had hundreds of workshops.

44:01

We had tracks you could follow.

44:03

We had seven or eight tracks

44:04

like the lesbians and straight women working together track

44:07

and we did bunches of different workshops on that.

44:11

We had a track on prostitution.

44:14

We had a track, I can't remember all our tracks,

44:18

but I got all that literature.

44:21

I think a bunch of us have saved it.

44:23

I hope so.

44:26

That was a very important conference actually.

44:28

And gosh, we just kept on going.

44:37

There was another lockout at the health center when,

44:42

the second thing, and this time I was on the opposite side

44:45

from the board of directors.

44:49

By maybe it was '79, Judy and Byllye and Randi

44:52

decided that to be fully encompassing of women's health,

45:02

we had to start a birth center.

45:07

And so, they were the movers and shakers behind that

45:09

and that's when Joan McTigue came into the picture.

45:13

They hired her as their midwife,

45:17

and she moved up here from Port St. Lucie I think

45:19

or Sebastian, one of those mid-eastern coast towns.

45:22

But Randi and Barbara, what was Barbara's last name.

45:34

I can picture her totally.

45:38

They had been in the women's underground midwife network.

45:42

Interviewer

Lay midwifery.

45:48

Pam

Lay midwifery, so they were very involved in this.

45:49

This was really, they considered this their baby.

45:53

Byllye and Judy considered it their baby.

45:57

And a rift started between those two people,

46:00

between those two sides.

46:06

And I'm not sure exactly why the board

46:10

didn't want Randi and Barbara

46:14

to be, whatever, in charge but they didn't.

46:18

They wanted Byllye to be in charge.

46:23

Interviewer

Byllye wasn't a midwife?

46:28

Pam

Byllye wasn't a midwife.

46:30

Although she was a very radical woman.

46:33

But anyway, the midwives wanted it to be midwifery run

46:37

and the board didn't.

46:42

Well, that time, they closed down the health center,

46:43

the board did, and locked out

46:50

Randi, Barbara, and any of the women who went

46:53

in that direction and almost all of us supported.

46:57

Interviewer

And Joan?

47:02

Pam

And Joan was on the midwife side.

47:03

Almost all of us supported the midwives.

47:06

And we like had a sit-in kind of thing in the health center.

47:16

We wouldn't allow ourselves to be locked out,

47:19

and we just started running it.

47:23

And the board, we had many, many meetings to

47:26

try to sort this through.

47:31

And the upshot of it was the solution

47:35

was for Judy and Byllye and Joan,

47:39

not Joan, she was, well maybe Joan, but Margaret,

47:43

that they would get the birth center

47:48

and we would get the health center.

47:50

And Randi and Barbara and Joan

47:53

were pretty brokenhearted about that,

47:57

that we gave up the birth center.

47:59

Interviewer

So there was gonna be a birth center

48:04

in the same place

48:07

as the abortion center?

48:08

-

Not the same.

No, we always had two buildings.

48:09

We always were gonna have,

48:11

the birth center was gonna be on,

48:13

it was on Northeast First Street

48:14

in the Duckpond neighborhood

48:17

and the health center was on Southeast Fourth Avenue

48:18

across from Alachua General.

48:24

Though there were always going to be two separate buildings,

48:28

because the birth center needed a lot of space

48:30

and our health center was not that big,

48:34

we couldn't have accommodated that.

48:37

(phone rings)

48:40

Do you want to stop this so I can turn that down

48:42

or will that bother us?

48:44

Interviewer

That's okay.

48:46

Pam

So I said I was on the side of the midwives

48:51

during that time, which is totally true,

48:56

but I also understood Judy and Byllye's point of view.

48:58

They really had put the money and the effort,

49:03

they were powerhouses and they were,

49:07

I trusted their women's liberation kind of point of view

49:13

more than I trusted the midwives' point of view.

49:17

So even though,

49:22

I just didn't think it was fair

49:25

to take the birth center from them.

49:26

I thought they should be able to work together

49:29

with the midwives, but I just could not see

49:32

taking the birth center from Judy and Byllye.

49:36

It just didn't seem right to me.

49:38

So I supported the split and that they got the birth center.

49:41

I also wasn't, I also hadn't,

49:48

I was running the abortion clinic at that point,

49:51

so it wasn't a personal loss for me.

49:55

Whereas with Randi, Joan, and Barbara,

49:58

it was a personal loss.

50:02

It was huge for them.

50:04

And I'm not sure that

50:06

Barbara ever got over it.

50:08

And Randi, who had been very close with Byllye,

50:11

that friendship never recovered.

50:18

And Randi wouldn't go, when Judy Levy was dying,

50:20

she died of liver cancer,

50:24

but she's the first person I ever knew who did this,

50:27

she had a big gathering of people to say goodbye,

50:31

to tell her what she had meant to them

50:37

and that kind of thing.

50:41

-

What year was that?

50:43

-

And Randi wouldn't go it.

Probably that was in the early 80s.

50:45

Interviewer

So it was still pretty raw.

50:48

Pam

Yeah, I mean it was four, five, six years later,

50:50

but Randi had not spoken to Judy since.

50:54

She'd made up with Byllye by then,

50:57

but she could never forgive Judy for what she did to them.

50:59

And I never, I don't think I ever spoke in depth

51:07

with Judy or Byllye after that,

51:11

and consequently I don't fully know their

51:14

side of the story.

51:19

And as I say all of these things,

51:21

it's probably, when you do a history,

51:24

you know you're only getting one person's point of view

51:27

because there are a lot of points of view

51:30

in all of these stories.

51:32

If you talk to Deborah David,

51:34

you'd get a whole different story

51:35

about what happened at the health center.

51:37

Interviewer

This is your story.

51:40

Pam

But this is my story.

51:41

I stayed conflictual about the lesbian part of myself.

51:44

I just stayed conflicted.

51:52

I fell in love with a woman, Kate Gallagher, a crazy woman,

51:57

but very charismatic and very sexual in I think 1980.

52:02

And from then on, I have only been a lesbian.

52:10

But it's not without its problems.

52:16

I really actually still consider myself,

52:20

this is more internal, this isn't

52:24

something I go out and advertise,

52:27

but I still consider myself more heterosexual somewhat.

52:30

But I've been married to a woman for 20 years.

52:36

I'm completely ensconced in that life,

52:42

and I will be 'til I die.

52:48

I love her, and I love the life actually.

52:52

I can't quite see living a heterosexual life

53:01

even though I am personally more heterosexual.

53:05

I don't like the life of it.

53:11

I just can't quite visualize it anymore.

53:17

So it's been 30 years, the '80s, the '90s

53:19

that I've lived fully in a lesbian world.

53:22

But I've always been a lesbian who,

53:28

if anybody asks me, I'd say that I was bisexual

53:36

or I might even say I was heterosexual

53:39

but choosing to live a lesbian life.

53:42

Interviewer

What does that mean,

53:47

to be heterosexual but living?

53:48

Pam

With attraction, I would say that I'm just more

53:50

sexually attracted to men,

53:54

but I'm not attracted to them in most any other way.

53:57

So I'm not gonna let that rule my life.

54:00

And by now, I'm 68, I'm almost 69, I'll be 69 in two weeks.

54:04

Or no, I'll be 68 in two weeks.

54:16

Yeah, I'll be 68.

54:20

I'm just not that sexual in general.

54:24

I don't think I would be in any circumstance.

54:28

So that's not my consideration,

54:31

and I can fully embrace the lesbian lifestyle.

54:34

I don't think it has that much to do

54:39

at the core of it with sexuality actually.

54:44

I just don't quite see that as the core.

54:51

I know lots and lots of lesbians who are single

54:55

and lots of lesbians who are in long-term relationships

54:59

that aren't sexual, I mean women who would identify fully

55:03

as a lesbian but by either this age

55:06

or this point in their relationship

55:09

or just in their own, probably this has to do with age,

55:13

in their own selves hormonally maybe,

55:18

it just isn't a core part of our lives anymore.

55:21

So it doesn't separate me from the lesbian world.

55:25

And I feel like I can be myself.

55:32

I don't feel like, this, me saying this view,

55:34

I think I can say it anywhere and people would nod.

55:37

It just would be a non-issue now.

55:40

That wasn't quite as true in the '70s.

55:42

And by the '80s,

55:47

I wasn't any longer as involved

55:53

with the women's health center

55:55

and then my next stage of radical women's work

55:58

was with the anti-nuclear movement

56:05

and we formed a, I think, what did we call ourselves.

56:09

I don't know.

56:16

I don't remember what we called ourselves.

56:18

We had a name.

56:20

And we then became major activists

56:23

in the anti-nuclear power movement and organized

56:27

marches to Washington.

56:32

-

With lesbian feminists.

Pam

With lesbian feminists.

56:34

Woody Blue came down to meet with us.

56:35

That's how she came to Gainesville,

56:38

she was passing through and we had a big meeting

56:40

of whatever we were called.

56:42

We were making banners then to take to an anti-nuclear

56:45

march against Savannah River

56:50

where the streams were literally boiling

56:53

with the heat that the nuclear plant discharged.

56:57

And at that thing, we did civil disobedience

57:04

and got arrested and spent.

57:08

Well, there were some straight women in that group,

57:12

but it was led by lesbians.

57:17

Interviewer

And who was in that group?

57:20

Pam

Oh gosh, that's Corky Culver, Lynda Lou Simmons, me.

57:23

There were 12 of us that got arrested together.

57:31

Kate Gallagher, Weed, Jane, what's Jane,

57:35

she was Jane, became Weed in jail,

57:41

Jane, what was Jane's last name,

57:46

I know it as good as I know anything.

57:50

Interviewer

It'll come.

57:54

Pam

Yeah, it'll come.

57:55

Jean, what was Jean's last name?

57:56

She and Kate became lovers in jail.

57:59

Judy Keathley.

58:06

And that's where we met, in jail,

58:11

we met the women from Sugarloaf down in the Keys.

58:13

We all went to jail.

58:19

-

Was Barbara Deming there?

Pam

Barbara Deming wasn't

58:21

because she was not healthy enough to be there

58:22

but she sent Blue and.

58:25

What was her, oh my god, now I don't know if

58:31

I should say this on the things, oh man.

58:33

This is a story, oh god.

58:39

So they were radical lesbians for sure,

58:43

and they were majorly into the peace movement

58:46

and anti-nuclear power movement

58:48

which we thought just, nuclear power

58:51

just seemed like a huge extension of patriarchy

58:54

and the worst use of energy and the worst

58:56

disrespect for the Earth,

59:00

which we considered woman-like, the Earth.

59:02

This other woman whose, oh wow, her name is escaping me,

59:08

but she lived in, we met her in jail.

59:11

I have to tell you how our jail was

59:15

because this was highly significant.

59:19

We were arrested for blocking a road,

59:21

and we admit to be arrested

59:25

and that was because our whole purpose was to get

59:27

national attention.

59:32

-

And where was this?

Pam

This is in Savannah River, South Carolina

59:33

at the nuclear power plant, when we blocked

59:37

trucks from coming in or out.

59:40

And a whole bunch of people got arrested, maybe 100 people.

59:44

And somehow they let the 12 of us stay together,

59:50

and we were sent to a jail in Aiken.

59:54

We got arrested near Barnwell, that's where the plant is,

59:58

the Savannah River plant,

1:00:03

and we were sent to Aiken, South Carolina

1:00:05

because there were too many of us for one jail.

1:00:08

The 12 of us, only the 12 of us were sent to this little

1:00:10

country jail in Aiken, South Carolina.

1:00:14

And that jail, they had two floors to their jail.

1:00:19

They turned to the top floor into our jail,

1:00:26

and they let the men be on the bottom.

1:00:31

And they just gave us the top floor,

1:00:33

which was designed in a way that you walked up the stairs

1:00:36

and then it had a three-sided walkway,

1:00:39

more than a walkway, it was probably 12 feet wide.

1:00:45

And then jail cells on the interior of that walkway

1:00:49

in a U shape, so you got a U-shaped hall

1:00:53

and then a bunch of, I don't know how many jail cells,

1:00:57

maybe eight jail cells, four on one side of that U

1:01:00

and four on the other side backing up to each other.

1:01:06

So on the bottom of the U, there weren't any openings.

1:01:08

They locked us into our little cells the first night,

1:01:13

and they put us in jail because we wouldn't give our names.

1:01:17

We were known as the Jane Doe's

1:01:21

because we refused to give our names

1:01:23

because we knew that was a tactic

1:01:25

that we'd get more attention.

1:01:28

It would bring the media to us

1:01:30

so we could get our message out.

1:01:33

So we stayed the Jane Doe's.

1:01:34

Well, the jail people liked us

1:01:36

and recognized right away we weren't criminals.

1:01:40

They opened, they never locked us,

1:01:44

past that first night, they didn't lock any of the cells.

1:01:47

So we were given the run of the upstairs alone,

1:01:51

no jail people, no nothing, just us 12

1:01:57

got to be, have the upstairs of the jail,

1:02:01

which was not much of a jail anymore.

1:02:05

So we had a giant CR group and we'd dec,

1:02:09

people brought us yarn, we put webs all over the place.

1:02:11

NPR came and interviewed us.

1:02:19

All the local newspapers came and interviewed us.

1:02:24

The Gainesville Sun got people to come and interview us.

1:02:27

We majorly got our word out.

1:02:31

Meanwhile, we had consciousness raising groups

1:02:36

three times a day.

1:02:39

And in that context, back to the women from Sugarloaf,

1:02:41

Blue was so radical, she was fabulous to us.

1:02:47

And this other woman was too.

1:02:50

I wish I could, Quin, Quin was her first name.

1:02:52

I hate to even tell you this story,

1:02:57

but it does seem like a part of everything.

1:03:00

Quin, oh I can't, I'm not going to.

1:03:04

I actually can't, I've decided.

1:03:09

It's not ethical to say what I.

1:03:11

I would love to, and this story should go somewhere,

1:03:13

but who do you think will hear this or see?

1:03:19

Interviewer

It's gonna be in the archives.

1:03:21

Pam

And it probably wouldn't be looked at for years?

1:03:24

If Quin is dead, it would be okay to say this story,

1:03:26

and I don't know if she is.

1:03:30

I just beg people not to go after her if she is still alive.

1:03:32

She grew up a.

1:03:39

Interviewer

Should I turn it off?

1:03:41

Pam

Let me tell it to you first and you decide.

1:03:42

I'm not going to tell that story

1:03:45

partly because it's not really my story

1:03:47

but the part that is my story about it was that it was,

1:03:49

what we were told was, to me it went along a violent line

1:03:53

and it kinda cemented for us,

1:03:59

for the us meaning my friends and I,

1:04:04

that no we were gonna be steadfastly nonviolent,

1:04:08

that we believed that that was the true path,

1:04:11

that that was what feminism, which we now call the feminism,

1:04:15

what that was leading to

1:04:20

and that was an essential core for us.

1:04:22

I think it was in those consciousness raising groups

1:04:26

that we first started talking about our dreams,

1:04:29

sharing our dreams, literally night dreams.

1:04:31

We would have a dream group every morning

1:04:34

to share what was going on in our unconscious.

1:04:36

And out of that group,

1:04:40

we decided to do a women's peace march

1:04:42

and we started planning it while we were in jail.

1:04:45

We stayed in jail for two weeks

1:04:49

and then in order to start

1:04:51

really doing the women's peace march work,

1:04:54

we gave our names and got out.

1:04:58

We'd figured we'd done our,

1:04:59

we'd gotten the attention we were gonna get.

1:05:01

Interviewer

Was there anything to do about sobriety?

1:05:03

Pam

Oh my god, there was,

1:05:06

well, not all of us.

1:05:07

I smoked a joint while I was in jail.

1:05:09

But there were two alcoholics among us

1:05:12

who were trying to cope with that

1:05:17

and they became sober in jail.

1:05:20

You do become sober in jail.

1:05:22

Although I did have that joint passed to me in a book

1:05:24

and I did smoke a couple of toasts

1:05:27

and everybody else freaked out about that.

1:05:30

But at any rate, sobriety did become,

1:05:33

for some people, it became

1:05:40

wonderful, really wonderful.

1:05:44

I think Corky'd feel free for me to say

1:05:47

that was the beginning of her long-term sobriety.

1:05:49

And Blue also, Blue I think was,

1:05:54

Blue was part of leading her to sobriety

1:05:56

because Blue had been sober for many years by then.

1:05:59

Blue was probably 10 years older than us

1:06:02

and had come out of a radical lesbian, the 50s thing.

1:06:07

She was somebody born a lesbian, true to her lesbianism

1:06:12

from a young age.

1:06:17

And she told us stories about that.

1:06:19

That was incredible in jail,

1:06:22

to hear stories from different women

1:06:23

about what their lives had brought them to

1:06:28

or what their lives had been like.

1:06:32

So then we did the Women's Peace March in December of '83.

1:06:35

Interviewer

When did you get out of jail?

1:06:44

Pam

In the fall.

1:06:48

We went to jail and we were there for two weeks,

1:06:50

that October.

1:06:52

We had Halloween in jail, so I know it was October.

1:06:53

So we went to jail somewhere in the 20s of October

1:06:56

and got out somewhere the first of November

1:07:01

and by December we were starting the peace walk.

1:07:03

And we went from Gainesville to Key West

1:07:05

and we walked the whole way.

1:07:08

And that started out with its purpose to be

1:07:11

to spread the word outward

1:07:15

to communities that we walked through

1:07:17

against the nuclear power industry.

1:07:20

But as we went along, that slowly changed

1:07:24

and became more and more about

1:07:30

women's inner development.

1:07:34

And I would say by halfway through Florida,

1:07:37

nobody was reaching out anymore except to

1:07:39

women's groups.

1:07:45

At first, we were all about the whole world

1:07:47

and getting the message and having press conferences

1:07:50

and da-da-da.

1:07:53

By halfway, we were now much, much more into radical,

1:07:54

internal feminism.

1:08:04

And it was at that time

1:08:08

that I personally had a split with some of my best friends

1:08:11

because they became lesbian separatists on that walk.

1:08:16

In fact, I would say the majority of women that walked,

1:08:22

that did that walk, who stuck with it, became separatists.

1:08:26

And I had a boy child and I never could embrace separatism

1:08:32

for a variety of reasons, mostly

1:08:43

I think I had a core spiritual belief

1:08:46

that even though I wanted to be,

1:08:49

live my life mostly separate from men,

1:08:55

I didn't think that was my long-term goal,

1:08:59

to have my whole life be separate from men.

1:09:03

I can have my private life, but I didn't,

1:09:06

and I saw a purpose in doing that for women

1:09:09

but I didn't see it as a goal.

1:09:12

And all of my best friends, well not all,

1:09:15

but some of my most significant best friends

1:09:20

followed the separatist path and then lived it for the next

1:09:23

10 years, and so I lost two at least,

1:09:30

two of my very best friends I lost during that time

1:09:39

and didn't get back with them until the early '90s.

1:09:44

Our lives just went in really different directions.

1:09:52

Randi and I stayed with our whatever, our not separatist

1:09:55

but still radical women perspective,

1:10:01

and Judy and Lynda Lou went into a very separatist stage.

1:10:08

Interviewer

And Becki was on that?

1:10:16

Pam

We met Becki on the peace walk.

1:10:17

We stayed at her house.

1:10:20

She offered, she heard about the peace walk,

1:10:21

and she and her girlfriend at the time

1:10:24

offered us their house to stay in outside Orlando.

1:10:26

And so, that's where we stayed,

1:10:30

and Becki came to our circle because we always had circles

1:10:32

and she came to our circle that night in her living room,

1:10:36

I think it was on her porch,

1:10:40

and that's how she.

1:10:43

-

And she just found out

about it.

1:10:45

-

And she just said,

I'm going with these women, and she left her life.

1:10:46

And that happened to a lot of women on that walk.

1:10:50

They came to that walk and they left what they were doing

1:10:53

and joined up.

1:10:59

It took us months to get to Key West.

1:11:01

It was a long way to walk.

1:11:04

Interviewer

Tell me how you worked that.

1:11:06

I think Sandra Lambert was in that group?

1:11:11

Pam

Sandra Lambert heard about it.

1:11:13

Sandra Lambert, she didn't go to jail,

1:11:17

but I think she was at Savannah River.

1:11:20

A bunch of the women, she was from Atlanta,

1:11:26

and a bunch of the women from Atlanta came to Savannah River

1:11:29

for the protest and they were also arrested.

1:11:33

But I don't think Sandra was arrested because she was,

1:11:36

it would have been a dangerous situation for her.

1:11:39

She was on crutches at the time.

1:11:41

-

And she was running Charis.

1:11:43

-

And she walked on the walk,

she went on crutches on the walk.

1:11:47

She wasn't in a wheelchair.

1:11:49

Interviewer

Wasn't she running Charis then?

1:11:51

Pam

She was running Charis.

1:11:52

She was one of the two or three owners.

1:11:53

She and Sherry and one other, maybe just she and Sherry

1:11:57

owned it.

1:12:01

She came to the walk and that moved her to Gainesville.

1:12:05

We were, are, whatever, a really dynamic group of women

1:12:10

who were fun-loving.

1:12:18

That's something about the South.

1:12:21

When you ask about how's the South different,

1:12:22

we are fun-loving.

1:12:25

Corky and that whole group of women, oh my god,

1:12:28

they were even separatists before there was such a word

1:12:32

as separatists, but they, they just had fun.

1:12:36

They did not think consciousness

1:12:40

excluded being wild and fun.

1:12:43

And that was always something

1:12:49

that was extremely attractive about us, I think.

1:12:51

And we were emotional and deep.

1:12:56

I would say those were core values of the southern women,

1:13:00

to take our feelings into account, to trust them,

1:13:10

and to be deep,

1:13:18

to not be superficial

1:13:21

and then to have a heck of a lot of fun.

1:13:23

We always believed that.

1:13:26

Music was always a big part of us.

1:13:28

Now that kinda leads you to fun.

1:13:30

We were always playing music together,

1:13:33

and we were always listening to music.

1:13:35

Interviewer

There was a whole women's music

1:13:45

movement.

1:13:47

-

Huge women's music.

Interviewer

Holly Near, Cris Williamson, Meg Christian.

1:13:48

Pam

How did I get, how did this happen?

1:13:57

What were we writing?

1:14:02

I met Corky, when I came back from Colorado,

1:14:04

this was '73 so it was before the women's health center.

1:14:11

I was a waitress at a Pizza Hut,

1:14:13

and Corky came in

1:14:18

with somebody else, I don't know who it was,

1:14:23

and sat in a booth and ordered coffee or something or Cokes.

1:14:25

And they just sat there and they were writing.

1:14:29

And I kept overhearing.

1:14:31

And I walked up to them and I said,

1:14:32

"Are you women's liberationists?"

1:14:35

They looked at me and said, well yeah.

1:14:38

I said, "What are you planning?"

1:14:41

And they were planning

1:14:43

an art and health

1:14:49

festival at the Thomas Center.

1:14:54

And it was a precursor to the spring arts festival.

1:14:58

And they were planning it.

1:15:03

And I said, well I want to help.

1:15:04

And so they, she was just like, a waitress.

1:15:05

So that's how I met Corky.

1:15:10

Interviewer

What year was that?

1:15:12

Pam

That was before the women's health,

1:15:13

that must have been '73.

1:15:14

So that's how I met that group.

1:15:16

That was very fun, that was a fantastic,

1:15:25

that was all fun.

1:15:28

That was puppets and art and probably Lorelai was involved.

1:15:29

I really don't know exactly who all was involved.

1:15:33

Interviewer

Had they bought the North 40 yet?

1:15:39

Pam

No, oh maybe, maybe they had,

1:15:40

but not very many of them.

1:15:43

Yeah, probably right around that time, they had.

1:15:44

They lived in the red house though.

1:15:47

And Pat was the only one who lived at the North 40

1:15:52

at that point.

1:15:57

She lived in a little teeny teeny travel trailer.

1:15:59

But other women had built structures there.

1:16:02

At that time, to build structures,

1:16:08

they insisted on using only hand tools

1:16:11

because power tools were considered too male

1:16:14

and too much a part of the patriarchy

1:16:18

so we only would use hand tools to build things.

1:16:21

So you can imagine how long it took to build a house.

1:16:24

So yeah, there's a whole group of those women

1:16:32

that I was just pretty peripheral to,

1:16:33

although they were the partiers and so we started partying.

1:16:36

So that was a huge thing in Gainesville,

1:16:43

was having music concerts and having parties,

1:16:44

probably a fair amount of drinking

1:16:49

but nobody seemed like they were getting drunk.

1:16:51

Everybody smoked marijuana at the time,

1:16:55

so that was kind of a non-issue.

1:16:57

I wouldn't have trusted anybody who didn't smoke marijuana.

1:16:59

I wouldn't have given them two cents

1:17:02

because I felt like, well it was a cultural thing.

1:17:05

That was what helped raise your consciousness,

1:17:08

and if anybody was against that,

1:17:10

well you just wouldn't have had anything to do with them.

1:17:14

They didn't seem worth the time of day.

1:17:18

Now, if somebody didn't smoke because they,

1:17:21

I'm not sure I even knew anybody back then

1:17:26

that was like this,

1:17:28

but if they had some kind of.

1:17:29

Interviewer

Respiratory thing.

1:17:33

Pam

Yeah, then it would seem okay,

1:17:34

but if it made them weird, well then you're like,

1:17:35

oh okay, that tells you something.

1:17:38

I don't want to be around anybody

1:17:41

that that makes them weird.

1:17:42

But anyway, that's just the vibe of,

1:17:46

that group is just, they are partiers,

1:17:50

and they're having fun

1:17:54

and everybody is trying to work out

1:17:58

their personal relationships.

1:18:00

That was a giant basis of the women's movement, here anyway.

1:18:03

Who's the poet?

1:18:11

Oh wow, who wrote the book on honesty.

1:18:14

Interviewer

Adrienne Rich?

1:18:20

Pam

Adrienne Rich, okay, that was like our Bible.

1:18:21

She had some statement about

1:18:26

you aren't telling me something or other

1:18:29

because you're not doing it.

1:18:31

You say you're doing it to protect me,

1:18:33

but in fact, you're doing it to protect yourself

1:18:36

to not have to deal with me.

1:18:39

So we were really into poets that were writing about honesty

1:18:42

and about core experiences and yeah.

1:18:49

It was a whole cultural movement.

1:18:54

And for me and my people, fun was a part of it.

1:18:59

He has notes, yes, yes.

1:19:04

It's a little teeny, it's a Bible, it's a Bible.

1:19:07

-

A manifesto.

1:19:12

-

It is, it's our manifesto.

Interviewer

About being honest.

1:19:15

Pam

About honesty, about radical honesty.

1:19:16

We believed in that.

1:19:19

It got us into some trouble in ourselves some of the time

1:19:21

because.

1:19:27

Interviewer

Notes on Lying.

1:19:29

Pam

Notes on Lying, that was the name of it, yeah.

1:19:30

During some of this time,

1:19:40

I was with Lynda Lou and Marilyn Mesh.

1:19:41

Marilyn Mesh and Lynda Lou Simmons had invited me

1:19:46

to join with the men they were involved with at the time

1:19:49

to do an organic farm,

1:19:55

so that was in 1979.

1:19:57

I was still at the health center,

1:20:02

and I did both for a long time.

1:20:03

And we did sweat lodges and it was with them

1:20:07

that I was doing a lot of the anti-nuclear work.

1:20:13

And we were pretty spread into lots of parts

1:20:17

of the cultural stuff that was happening then.

1:20:21

Organic food was all part of it.

1:20:26

We also believed that the world might end anytime soon.

1:20:29

So we were, for a little tiny period,

1:20:33

we were the types that wanted to always have

1:20:35

a knife with us

1:20:38

and some water and wool blanket because

1:20:43

what if the world has a big explosion.

1:20:49

Interviewer

What were you gonna do with the knife?

1:20:54

Pam

Oh, we'd have to cut a lot of things.

1:20:56

If you're on your own and the world is mostly blown up

1:20:58

and you're the last people left,

1:21:01

you're gonna have to survive.

1:21:03

So you need a knife to survive,

1:21:05

you need a good wool blanket, you need water.

1:21:07

You might have to make a bow and arrow.

1:21:10

I don't know what we thought we were gonna do really,

1:21:15

but that seemed essential to us.

1:21:17

It's huge.

1:21:26

We never fit in one little story,

1:21:27

all of what we were touching into.

1:21:29

It still informs me to this day.

1:21:33

I don't think I've changed my conscious.

1:21:35

Well, maybe I've changed my consciousness,

1:21:39

but the basic parts that grew during that time

1:21:41

are there right now.

1:21:46

Interviewer

So after the peace walk,

1:21:48

I remember I was part of that at the end,

1:21:53

but that whole experience was very, what?

1:21:55

It's a lot of processing.

1:22:07

-

It was complex.

It was a lot of processing.

1:22:10

That was the circles.

1:22:11

That's how it became more inner than outer,

1:22:12

is the circles became more and more personal.

1:22:15

They were huge circles.

1:22:18

We're talking plenty of times 60, 70 women.

1:22:19

I don't know exactly what came of that

1:22:30

because it was all so personal.

1:22:32

For me, it was losing my best friends,

1:22:33

that I could not go along the path

1:22:38

they were gonna go along, that they did go along.

1:22:40

They didn't exclude me.

1:22:44

It's just that I, we each had to follow our core belief

1:22:45

and theirs was becoming different than mine.

1:22:51

They went on to plan LEAP out of that, out of the peace walk

1:22:57

which was, what did that stand for.

1:23:02

Lesbians for Empowerment

1:23:04

and Process, I'm sure that wasn't it.

1:23:08

What was it?

1:23:12

I don't know what it stands for.

1:23:17

I don't know, but LEAP was its name.

1:23:20

And that was at the North 40.

1:23:22

And they're the ones that planned that.

1:23:24

I went to it, but I wasn't part of the planning

1:23:26

because by then it was lesbian separatists

1:23:29

who were planning that.

1:23:32

-

Were you still working

at the Gainesville women's health center?

1:23:33

Pam

No, by then I was just, let's see.

1:23:34

No, I wasn't.

1:23:36

I was still farming.

1:23:38

And I was, I quit my.

1:23:43

My kids grew up at that point, well not fully grew up,

1:23:44

but my daughter, in '83, she was 19,

1:23:49

so she was pretty much, she was born in '64.

1:23:52

And Ian was born in '67 and he was by that time

1:23:56

living at his father's.

1:24:00

So I was free.

1:24:02

So what did I do?

1:24:04

I just started to, I'd been working so hard.

1:24:05

I started taking part-time jobs

1:24:08

and just mostly doing my activist work.

1:24:13

Interviewer

When did people sort of,

1:24:16

did a lot of people leave the Gainesville

1:24:18

women's health center at that point?

1:24:19

Pam

Yes.

1:24:21

Candice, I don't remember, she left before I did.

1:24:23

Betsy went to graduate school.

1:24:26

It was really a natural, there wasn't a big leaving.

1:24:29

We'd all been there long enough.

1:24:32

It was sort of stagnating.

1:24:37

And each of us was doing more our own thing.

1:24:41

I was now farming

1:24:44

and I was majorly on a spiritual path by then.

1:24:46

I'd been going to Eloise Page Natural Law classes

1:24:49

for probably four years by then,

1:24:54

so my path had turned a little more spiritual.

1:24:59

Betsy had gone to graduate school, she was getting her PhD.

1:25:03

Candice went off on her own spiritual thing.

1:25:07

Judy was dying.

1:25:14

Judy Levy.

1:25:18

Byllye moved up to DC or to somewhere like that.

1:25:23

Interviewer

To start the black women's.

1:25:27

Pam

She started the black women's health,

1:25:29

and she became just huge.

1:25:31

She got a MacArthur's genius grant.

1:25:34

Interviewer

She moved up to Atlanta first.

1:25:40

Pam

Maybe Atlanta, yeah.

1:25:41

But she left Gainesville and became very involved

1:25:43

in the thing she created.

1:25:48

Betsy created the rural women's health initiative

1:25:50

which to this day is going on

1:25:55

and she went on to, after her PhD,

1:25:57

she teaches at Chapel Hill,

1:26:00

the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

1:26:04

She's a major mover and shaker.

1:26:07

At the women's health center,

1:26:13

we started teaching the doctors

1:26:14

how to examine women by us being the models,

1:26:16

where they put their hands inside us

1:26:21

and we told them don't do it this way, do it this way.

1:26:24

And Betsy is still teaching that model to doctors

1:26:28

up in North Carolina.

1:26:33

Randi went to PA school and started working at the children.

1:26:36

It was just a very individual thing.

1:26:42

She went on to work with children

1:26:44

who were victims of abuse.

1:26:47

And I think each of us just went on and did our own thing.

1:26:50

I went on and worked at the birth center actually.

1:26:56

But by then, Judy and Byllye were no longer involved.

1:27:00

It got bought out by midwives.

1:27:03

And I went and worked for those midwives

1:27:05

and became their kind of manager.

1:27:07

And yeah, we all.

1:27:11

Lately, what activist things?

1:27:17

Really activist, I'm not sure

1:27:21

that I did much activism beyond the '80s.

1:27:27

So I was in my 40s.

1:27:30

Interviewer

But you did go to,

1:27:32

you went to acupuncturist school.

1:27:33

Pam

I went to acupuncture school,

1:27:34

and then I became, it's a different kind of activism,

1:27:36

I became an alternative medical person

1:27:40

and started affecting people's lives on an individual basis.

1:27:46

Interviewer

So you always believed

1:27:51

in alternative medicine.

1:27:52

Pam

Totally, totally.

1:27:53

Everything feels like it all fits together.

1:27:54

I went on and from the '70s on,

1:27:57

I was interested in dream work

1:28:01

and just in the last few years, about three years ago,

1:28:02

went and got professional, I went to a two-year program

1:28:08

in dream work, in Jungian dream work.

1:28:12

And I've been doing that ever since.

1:28:16

I lead a dream group now.

1:28:18

I don't think consciousness, once you get consciousness,

1:28:23

I think you keep consciousness.

1:28:27

And so, hopefully you keep on changing with the times

1:28:29

and do what's necessary to help consciousness

1:28:33

in the time that we're in now.

1:28:37

For instance, we're in 2012

1:28:41

and there's this whole thing about the Earth might end

1:28:44

on December 21st, I don't believe that at all.

1:28:46

I do think we're in a changed time

1:28:50

and that maybe that the Mayans could foresee

1:28:54

that we are in a changed time

1:28:58

and that seems pretty obvious to me.

1:29:00

I'm still totally interested in the environment.

1:29:03

We are right now having water issues with our aquifer,

1:29:06

and I'm in a group that is fighting the people

1:29:11

that are trying to put in cow farms

1:29:16

that will pull up major amount of water from our aquifer,

1:29:19

plus put a bunch of shit into the ground

1:29:23

and affect our aquifer.

1:29:26

So the environment has stayed critical to me

1:29:28

and I'm still doing activism work with that.

1:29:32

Relationships between men and women

1:29:38

are still critical to me.

1:29:40

I have many men friends now.

1:29:43

I'm much more relaxed about it.

1:29:45

I think their consciousness has finally changed some,

1:29:47

but that's always still work.

1:29:51

-

And has your daughter

become an activist?

1:29:53

Pam

My daughter and son, both are major activists

1:29:54

with the Occupy movement.

1:29:57

My daughter started a group in San Diego called

1:30:01

Middle-Aged Ladies in Support of Occupy.

1:30:04

And that's become just a huge thing there,

1:30:11

and in fact, it's gone national.

1:30:15

And she's still real involved with that,

1:30:17

of women who aren't spending the nights

1:30:19

but they're down there helping the Occupiers.

1:30:22

And my son was one of the founders of Occupy

1:30:26

here in Gainesville, and he's very involved in that

1:30:30

and went down to the Republican National Convention in Tampa

1:30:33

and fed people, he went to Food Not Bombs, those people,

1:30:39

and helped feed the other people

1:30:44

who are more on the frontlines.

1:30:46

Because they're now in their late 40s, my kids.

1:30:48

Yeah, both of them are involved in that.

1:30:52

My son works with children with autism in his work life,

1:30:55

and my daughter works with elders in San Diego.

1:31:01

She's in charge of, for the county of San Diego,

1:31:07

she does all their, I don't know what it's called,

1:31:12

healthy living, something like that.

1:31:15

So she does health stuff.

1:31:18

But she doesn't like hands-on.

1:31:19

Well, that's not true, totally.

1:31:21

She does laughter yoga too.

1:31:23

She runs a whole laughter yoga program for the elders,

1:31:25

and that's the one hands-on thing she likes.

1:31:30

She more likes planning things on that level.

1:31:33

She likes planning, organizing whole big things.

1:31:37

Interviewer

Didn't she get a degree in anthropology?

1:31:40

Pam

Yeah, she got a degree in anthropology,

1:31:44

and she went to North Carolina

1:31:46

and got a degree in public health,

1:31:48

a master's of public health.

1:31:50

Ian, my son, has a learning disability.

1:31:51

This is like one of the tragedies of my life,

1:31:54

is that I didn't know anything about that

1:31:59

when he was growing up in the '70s.

1:32:02

I'd never heard of attention deficit disorder,

1:32:04

and I'm sure that that's what he has.

1:32:09

I just did not parent him very well

1:32:14

or at least half-assed.

1:32:22

I did some things good.

1:32:24

I loved him good.

1:32:26

I put him in an alternative school.

1:32:28

I think that was good for his spirit.

1:32:31

I think he would have been crushed in public school.

1:32:33

But I did not pay enough attention to learning.

1:32:35

And he never graduated from high school, he got a GED.

1:32:41

He got into major substance abuse,

1:32:47

and he just was pretty unhappy most of his adulthood

1:32:51

until he got sober maybe five years ago,

1:32:56

four years ago, five I think.

1:32:59

And that's changed his life.

1:33:01

And he was a carpenter all those bad years,

1:33:03

which didn't fit him at all.

1:33:06

I had a patient actually

1:33:12

who was a caregiver for autistic people.

1:33:13

And they needed somebody and I went and said to Ian,

1:33:17

you know, I think you oughta consider applying

1:33:20

for this and I know it's not much money

1:33:22

but I think it'd be steady money,

1:33:24

which in my book steady money is better than.

1:33:27

People get real sidetracked by making $20 an hour,

1:33:31

but then if they really can only work 10 hours a week,

1:33:37

what does it matter, $20 an hour?

1:33:40

Anyway, he turned out to love autistic people

1:33:44

and love being their careperson.

1:33:49

So now, he's running their daycare, day center.

1:33:53

And he loves it.

1:34:00

He feels like he shouldn't even be being paid

1:34:02

because it's so much easier than being a carpenter

1:34:05

which he wasn't at all suited to.

1:34:08

So now he just gets to be with people

1:34:11

and just be kind to them.

1:34:13

And that fits ADD people.

1:34:15

So he's finally okay,

1:34:19

but I still worry about him

1:34:22

and it's still a pretty big tragedy in my life

1:34:25

about myself basically, what I wasn't able to.

1:34:28

Of course, I had these kids when I was 19 and 22,

1:34:33

so I had a hell of a lot of growing up to do

1:34:37

as they were growing up.

1:34:40

Interviewer

Well, it's all a process, right?

1:34:42

That's something I think about with feminism and about

1:34:45

the zeitgeist of our generation is that

1:34:53

it was more the journey to getting where we're going.

1:34:59

Pam

The journey itself counts.

1:35:05

Interviewer

Which was a lot.

1:35:08

Your life as a southern lesbian feminist activist

1:35:12

permeates in so many different directions

1:35:22

and you've gone in so many different ways.

1:35:24

In hindsight, we can be seeing some ways

1:35:29

that we would have done that differently but we did it

1:35:34

the best way that we knew how to do it.

1:35:37

Pam

With my son, during that time,

1:35:41

he was a teenager in '83, he was born in '67,

1:35:45

so whatever he was, he was 16.

1:35:50

And Judy, one of my best friends

1:35:52

who went the separatist route,

1:35:55

had almost helped raise Ian.

1:35:58

She was very significant in his life.

1:36:01

And one day in the kitchen, at my house, Ian was there.

1:36:03

He was living with his father,

1:36:08

but he was over at our house.

1:36:09

And Judy was there and he went up

1:36:11

and put his arm around her.

1:36:13

But now he's a big 16-year-old punk actually,

1:36:14

he was into punk rock.

1:36:19

And Judy recoiled and said something like, don't touch me.

1:36:20

And it was heartbreaking to him

1:36:26

and that became like a heartbreaking experience for me.

1:36:31

If there was a choice, it's my kids,

1:36:36

or I say that they're gonna take precedence,

1:36:39

I didn't always act like that as I was raising them for sure

1:36:41

but in a core level, when I saw my son hurt emotionally,

1:36:45

it just crushed me, just totally crushed me.

1:36:53

And that was one of the big divisions then

1:36:56

for my friendship with somebody who had been

1:36:59

a very close friend for a decade.

1:37:02

So it's been intense.

1:37:06

Those people are now back to being my best friends.

1:37:10

I suppose we just moved in.

1:37:14

I think Judy, I don't know if she.

1:37:16

I know one of her best friends now

1:37:17

is a young man that she works with at Lightning Salvage,

1:37:19

a young gay guy is now, I would say John's her,

1:37:24

maybe not her best friend but right up there.

1:37:28

And Lynda Lou mostly has a world with women for sure.

1:37:33

But I don't think she'd call herself a separatist anymore.

1:37:38

I think we all mellowed.

1:37:45

We all mellowed.

1:37:46

And I was in a bad car accident

1:37:49

that they, in '93, '94, the beginning of '94,

1:37:52

and that brought us all back together actually,

1:37:57

when I was almost dying, then it was like,

1:38:00

they just came, they just came to the hospital.

1:38:02

It didn't matter, nothing mattered anymore.

1:38:06

And they were there.

1:38:09

And then as I recuperated, they were there.

1:38:11

And then we've been together ever since.

1:38:15

It took that, it took almost dying

1:38:18

to bring us back together, but it did.

1:38:21

Interviewer

Well, I want to thank you so much.

1:38:26

This has just been a wonderful, wonderful,

1:38:28

all has been a life and a testimony to

1:38:31

what a Gainesville woman is about

1:38:34

and your part in that, so thanks.

1:38:38

Pam

Thank you.

1:38:42

Smith, Pam - interviewed by Barbara Esrig

Transcript

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