Atkins, Gail and Demeter, Gwen - interviewed by Rose Norman / Southern Lesbian-Feminist Activist Herstory Project / Duke Digital Repository

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Tape and say this is Rose Norman,

0:00

and I'm here with B. Leaf Cronwright,

0:03

and we are interviewing Gwen Demider and Gail Atkins

0:09

at Women Rights in New Jackson, Georgia

0:13

on Saturday, October 12, 2013.

0:17

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One second, I think I need (mumbles).

0:23

I have it here.

0:28

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I have a lot of notes, but...

0:29

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We could make a quick outline afterwards.

0:33

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Oh, yeah.

0:37

Or, let me do review.

0:41

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Okay.

0:43

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Oh goodness.

0:48

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(laughs)

0:49

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The key dates are 1970, you divorced.

0:50

1975 you to me.

0:53

1980 it all blows up with--

0:57

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We get together in 80.

It all blows up with whatever--

1:05

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Lundstrom.

1:06

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And you get together with Gail,

1:09

and you have the three different places you live.

1:17

First, with Jack, friend

1:19

and neighbor of Deborah and Jeffrey,

1:22

and then the house on Young Street,

1:23

and that's where you start looking for the land.

1:25

People who were in the house on Young Street,

1:28

Ronda, Melissa, and Sheree.

1:32

Now, Sherri did not get in on the land.

1:35

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Melissa and Sheree broke up at some point

1:37

while we were living together.

1:39

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Okay.

1:41

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And she got with Robin.

1:41

Robin was the new girlfriend.

1:44

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Okay.

1:46

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Who had... Robin had also been attendant

1:49

to a neighbor down the street (laughs).

1:51

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(laughs) Oh, Lord.

1:53

So she really is at both.

1:56

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Right. Now, and Wolfspider again, too.

1:59

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Okay.

2:05

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Okay, so we have this big ritual,

2:09

and Gail says she's not looking

2:12

that I call her, and I do.

2:14

We got that,

2:16

and we go out and look at it,

2:17

and Gail feels like this is it.

2:18

My feelings were not that strong,

2:21

because I was thinking about it

2:23

being so much like the land in Arkansas.

2:24

Plus, I never know, you know.

2:26

Are you sure, you know?

2:29

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I was sure.

2:31

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So we bought it the next week,

2:33

and Pat's business fronted some of the money.

2:34

I think I had 5,000.

2:41

Alicia had 5,000, and we paid 15,000.

2:42

I think Pat done burned...

2:48

There was something else in there.

2:50

We had to pay Pat back some.

2:51

I don't remember how that went,

2:52

but something like that.

2:54

We paid cash.

2:55

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So just three of you ladies, then?

2:57

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Shocked the people that we were buying from.

2:59

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Other people wanna be--

3:02

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They showed up.

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No, because George didn't put any money in,

3:05

and Robin didn't.

3:07

I don't think you had any at that point,

3:10

except...

3:12

We had... I guess our money was combined.

3:15

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Yeah, I did that.

3:17

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Sorta.

3:18

Anyway, we put five.

3:19

Something like that.

3:21

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Where did the 10 come from, then?

3:22

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Five, five, and five from somewhere.

3:24

I don't know.

3:26

I can't.

3:27

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Dunbar?

3:28

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Dunbar was five.

3:29

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She got an interest free loan

3:30

from her business for part of it.

3:33

Seemed like we paid her back for some of that.

3:36

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Where's the other five coming from?

3:40

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Alicia put some in.

3:43

I put some in.

3:44

I just can't remember the details.

3:46

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I mean I have the book.

3:47

I'll look it up when I get home.

3:48

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Okay.

3:49

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I might have it in--

3:50

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So 15,000 for how much land?

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40 acres.

3:53

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Shit (laughs).

3:54

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Nothing on it, pine trees.

3:57

Nothing on it.

4:00

But it did have trees.

4:02

It had hills.

4:04

It had cactus, sand, dry creek, wet creek

4:06

part of the year.

4:12

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And it was beautiful.

4:15

It is beautiful.

4:16

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(laughs)

4:17

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Yes, beautiful.

4:19

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I brought my time book,

4:21

so I could have it for some of this.

4:22

I'd have to get it out.

4:24

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So no water, electricity, or anything?

4:26

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No, we--

4:28

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Electricity was running

through it, but--

4:31

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We hauled water for washing.

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From where?

4:35

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Our professor from Memphis State

4:37

owned land right up the hill from us.

4:39

They had a well.

4:41

We could get water there,

4:43

but at first we got it from a store

4:44

that was three miles away.

4:46

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How did we meet him?

4:50

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Probably making phone calls.

4:52

Nobody had phones back then.

4:53

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Right.

4:55

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So we'd go to the--

4:56

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So you'd haul it from the store,

4:57

like you had to--

4:59

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Milk--

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The faucet--

4:59

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Milk jugs.

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Milk jugs and a faucet that you'd just use.

5:02

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We'd go up to Keil, the country store.

5:03

We got to know the Keils,

5:06

and Pat later hired old Mr. Keil

5:08

to work on her cabin.

5:12

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So he could--

5:15

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Actually, she--

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He had enough to draw social security.

5:17

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Actually, she hired him to work

5:20

at her sheet metal shop in Memphis,

5:21

but that was a 60 mile drive,

5:24

and he needed a few more hours to get his social security,

5:27

and his eyes weren't that good.

5:31

So she said, "How would you think

5:33

"About working three miles from home?" (laughs).

5:35

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And that's what he did.

5:38

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He did some finishing work.

5:40

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He was a carpenter.

5:42

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Yeah, he was a country guy.

5:43

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Just a lot of skills.

5:45

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Yeah.

5:47

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I think he had been a sheet metal worker

5:49

at one point, a farmer.

5:51

So he did some finishing work

5:53

on our bathhouse, on the inside, and on her yard.

5:54

And she paid him.

6:00

I don't know what.

6:01

But that kind of got us some points with the neighbors.

6:04

(laughs).

6:07

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Yeah, it did.

6:09

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Did you do that the first year?

6:11

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I don't remember any structures out there the first year.

6:11

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I'm trying to think what started first.

6:17

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The dome kitchen.

6:21

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Yeah, we did that before we did the bathhouse, didn't we?

6:24

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Yeah.

6:27

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We started first.

6:27

Okay, Pat Dunbar with the sheet metal company,

6:29

she didn't really know what our skills were.

6:31

She didn't really trust that we could build anything.

6:34

Well, I'm just saying that,

6:38

but she was also into new and innovative things,

6:41

and she read about these dome structures,

6:44

which I had read about too.

6:47

So she had all this wood cut and sent down to us

6:49

to build a dome kitchen.

6:52

Unfortunately, she didn't leave any overhang,

6:55

which was a fatal mistake,

6:58

but anyway...

7:00

So first, we built this dome kitchen.

7:01

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Which still stands there.

7:03

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Alice Reed redone the outside of the room.

7:06

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So who all built it?

7:10

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Me and you and Georgeann.

7:13

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Was it overhand or (mumbles)?

7:16

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You know, the walls slant in and out,

7:19

so all the water comes off some of them

7:22

and hits the walls if you don't have a big enough overhang,

7:24

or if you don't put gutters out.

7:26

So we went to gutters later,

7:29

but anyway...

7:30

Bluejay was there during this.

7:31

Bluejay was lovers with Georgeann Wolfspider.

7:35

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What? (laughs)

7:38

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We go way back (laughs).

7:40

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Way back.

7:43

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The clock ticks.

7:44

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The Bluejay?

7:46

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Yeah.

7:47

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John McQueen.

7:50

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You don't have to write this down,

7:52

but after we had signed all the paperwork and everything,

7:54

Bluejay said she'd been over at Dianna's land.

7:56

She said, "You shouldn't put it in any people's names.

8:00

That's a mistake. You oughta do a land trust,"

8:03

after we signed everything.

8:05

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This is Dianna's land at Sassafras or at Olla?

8:08

Probably Olla.

8:11

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I don't know, maybe Sassafras.

8:13

I'm not sure.

8:15

I'm not... well, no I guess it's...

8:17

Because we went over there and visited.

8:21

We stayed in Cedar's Cabin.

8:23

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I can... I can answer Bluejay.

8:24

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Yeah, we went over there during that time period.

8:28

I remember, we went to a ritual over there at Olla.

8:30

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Okay, Bluejay's view from that point

8:35

was don't put it in anybody's name.

8:38

Put it in a trust.

8:39

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Right, but we didn't do it.

8:40

It was in seven women's names.

8:43

Without right of survivorship, Sole Femme, they call it.

8:47

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Why did you do that?

8:52

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So none of our relatives could...

8:53

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But if you have right of survivorship,

8:57

then your relatives can't do that.

8:59

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Sole Femme means that none of your relatives

9:01

can inherit your land.

9:04

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But right of survivorship means that you die.

9:08

It goes to anybody that didn't die.

9:11

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So it doesn't matter if it's Sole Femme or not,

9:13

because it's going to the ones who... right?

9:16

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Well, if it... I don't know.

9:20

Some people have told me they don't know

9:21

what Sole Femme is in Mississippi.

9:23

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Is that over there?

9:25

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Yeah, that's not yours, I suppose?

9:27

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Whoever's that is...

9:28

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Anyway.

9:30

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Okay, so yours has...

9:31

It has seven women's names.

9:33

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Right.

9:35

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And Sole Femme without right of survivorship,

9:41

or with right of survivorship?

9:45

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Oh, just leave that off.

9:48

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Our land has right of survivorship,

9:50

and basically the last one standing owns everything,

9:52

and nobody has any claim of any of it.

9:55

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Yeah, that's the same.

9:58

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Other than us.

10:00

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Yeah, that's similar.

10:01

Might have just used the wrong words.

10:03

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Okay.

10:06

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But right now--

10:09

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We don't live there now, do we?

10:11

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(laughs)

10:13

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We live there now?

10:15

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Yeah.

10:16

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Well, I'll be damned.

10:17

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Where did you think you lived?

10:18

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I don't know where I live.

10:19

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You live there.

10:20

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She was there about a month ago (laughs).

10:23

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I can verify that.

10:26

I sent you a picture even.

10:27

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Okay.

10:29

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We've got them.

10:30

So that's some land.

10:31

You've got seven names on it,

10:35

and those seven people want to live there?

10:37

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Pat and Annabelle did not plan to live there.

10:41

It was kind of like Pat's survivor place

10:44

when things went to shit in Memphis.

10:49

There was an earthquake, or whatever.

10:50

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Right.

10:53

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But they built a mighty fab yert.

10:54

After we went through our walls going in and out

11:01

on the dome kitchen, she saw mother earth.

11:03

Knew you could build one with straight walls,

11:05

and put a cable around the outside

11:10

to hold the roof up, so you didn't

11:14

have to have a post in the middle.

11:16

So that's what she built.

11:18

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And it's gorgeous.

11:19

You pull that cable and it lifts.

11:20

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It is sturdy.

11:22

It's probably the sturdiest on its own.

11:24

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It's up there.

11:25

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She screwed the sucker together every which way.

11:29

A lot of women have lived in it.

11:34

Sharon and Glenda lived in it,

11:37

and Lee Curry and Mitru and Ayla.

11:40

Yep.

11:45

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We had all kinds of women.

11:47

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Lot of women on the weekend--

11:48

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If you hadn't said that, then yeah,

11:49

because I'm the one who put down who all lived

11:53

in the yert, and I didn't get there yet,

11:55

but a lot of people lived in it.

11:56

Okay, Ayla.

11:57

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Ayla, B.

11:58

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Oh, B that lives on Olla now?

12:00

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No.

12:02

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Another B.

12:03

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Let's say Belinda.

12:04

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Belinda, yeah.

12:05

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Belinda, Mitru, Lee Curry, Natalie's in Portland.

12:06

I see--

12:16

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Oregon?

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Huh?

12:18

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Oregon?

12:19

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Hm?

12:20

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Somebody just came back from...

12:21

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Hm, let's see.

12:22

Olla, Jeanie and Paula.

12:23

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Yeah, but they're a while.

12:27

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Remember Jeanie and Paula that live in Arkansas?

12:28

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Winter, all winter?

12:33

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That's them.

12:36

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Paula what? Winter?

12:37

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They worked with Spinster Sink.

12:38

Jeanie, she was an...

12:40

Paula... what was her...

12:43

Paula Marie Child, or Marie Daughter, or something.

12:45

Paula Maria Daughter.

12:48

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I can look it up.

12:49

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She was a stewardess at one point.

12:50

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Then she ended up in Ozarks.

12:54

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We have carry on.

12:55

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They bought land in Arkansas.

12:56

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Yeah.

12:58

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They lived with us for a year.

12:59

I forgot about there.

13:04

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So these are all people that lived

13:06

at the yert for some length of time?

13:07

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Yeah, yeah.

13:09

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So, say how long people lived where?

13:10

Alya has lived there off and on over the years?

13:12

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And Belinda, how is she?

13:23

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Oh, Lord. I don't know.

13:26

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Don't worry about that.

13:27

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Belinda was there a couple years, maybe.

13:29

I don't know.

13:32

I'd have to look that up.

13:34

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It doesn't matter.

13:36

I'm just trying to get a sense of...

13:37

And did they live alone, or did they

13:39

live with people, or both, or?

13:40

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They had a threesome going, I think, for a while.

13:43

I don't know. I don't know the details.

13:45

We also had... Early on when we got there

13:47

we had a little apprentice come

13:52

from San Francisco named Athena.

13:55

I don't know if you oughta put her last name, either.

13:58

She's gone back to San Francisco,

14:01

but Athena was an apprentice.

14:03

We had several apprentices of and on.

14:05

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How did they hear about you?

14:08

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To help us build.

14:09

We were probably either in Maize or LC.

14:11

Josephine came back to visit when she got cancer.

14:22

Let's see.

14:26

Ayla left in 94.

14:36

I don't know.

14:39

Let's see when she come...

14:40

Trish and Ayla helped us build.

14:41

For a long time, Ayla would come for the winter,

14:44

and then for the summer she would go back up

14:47

to Wisconsin to farm with Trish.

14:51

Oh, me. What is this visitors?

15:10

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Now, where were y'all living

15:13

when you first bought the land and moved out there?

15:15

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Okay, okay. When we first bought the land,

15:18

we moved into a tent with our queen sized bed,

15:23

but it was like the rainiest year in years,

15:29

so on one of our trips to Memphis,

15:35

Gail had a Ford truck, we bought an old wooden camper

15:38

to put on the back of it for about a hundred dollars, maybe,

15:46

and we moved the bed into the back of the truck

15:50

with the type writer and my coffeepot

15:53

and the two cats, and we had one dog.

15:56

We put her in the cab at night.

16:00

We put poo up in the cab.

16:03

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Okay, a queen size mattress...

16:08

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A typewriter and a coffeepot and radio.

16:10

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Manual typewriter?

16:14

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Uh-huh, manual.

16:16

Old manual typewriter.

16:17

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So was the coffeepot like the earlier kind?

16:19

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No.

16:23

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So drip coffee.

16:23

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Yeah, yeah.

16:25

We had one shelf up behind the cab.

16:26

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Okay.

16:28

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With a typewriter and a coffeepot.

16:29

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I don't know how she could type up there.

16:31

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And on the side we had a radio.

16:34

I remember we had a radio.

16:35

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Like a transistor?

16:37

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No, we had electricity by then.

16:39

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Oh, okay. So you dropped a line in there.

16:41

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Yeah, electricity went right through the land,

16:43

so we could get electricity right away for power tools.

16:46

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That's good.

16:53

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So first thing we did was that dome kitchen,

16:55

because we had a very...

16:57

At first we had... I think Georgeann built

16:59

a very small...

17:03

Eight by two feet shed for tools, maybe.

17:09

Actually, our kitchen at first was a clothesline

17:12

with plastic over it, tent wise.

17:15

That didn't last long.

17:20

We decided we needed to build a kitchen.

17:21

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This is a very organic group.

17:24

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(laughs) hadn't thought anything out much.

17:26

In fact--

17:32

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So nobody was living

out there initially but y'all?

17:34

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Georgeann, she had a tent.

17:37

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She had a tent.

17:40

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We were all living in a tent.

17:41

Maybe we were living in the back of the truck.

17:44

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Both, I just told her all of that.

17:46

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I remember the truck.

17:47

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So you and Gail had moved into a tent,

17:49

as did Georgeann.

17:50

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Yes.

17:51

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Another tent.

17:52

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Yes, and Robin and Alicia brought a tent out,

17:53

and we told them, "Listen to the weather before you come."

18:02

I can't remember why they were staying in town.

18:05

Maybe Robin had a job.

18:07

I don't know.

18:09

She didn't have it long if she had it.

18:11

Anyway, she taught sign language,

18:14

so she could've been doing that.

18:15

It was Alicia's birthday, and they wanted

18:18

to celebrate on the land.

18:21

This must've been in February or March.

18:23

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Of the next year.

18:26

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No, the same year.

18:27

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We bought it in February, so this was like a month later.

18:28

We said, "Listen to the weather!"

18:32

We listened to the weather.

18:34

We still had a house in town.

18:35

We decided to go in town, because a storm was coming.

18:37

Maybe an ice storm.

18:40

They came out.

18:42

They stayed in their tent.

18:44

They took on an hour to crack the ice

18:47

the next day to get out of the tent.

18:49

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(laughs) wise women. Oh, lordy.

18:51

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Alicia was used to three showers a day.

18:59

I said that I shouldn't put that in print,

19:01

but she liked baths,

19:03

and we had not much bathing facilities.

19:06

We had water we poured out of...

19:10

Water we had hauled,

19:14

so they took off for California rather quickly (laughs).

19:16

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The accommodations were not suitable,

19:23

but their name was on the land,

19:27

but they hadn't considered how they would live there.

19:29

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Yeah, I don't know what their plan was.

19:33

Of course, I'll have to tell you,

19:36

and you can write this down.

19:39

When we moved out there,

19:41

we were getting into all kinds of spirituality,

19:42

and somehow I had gotten in my idea

19:45

that we would probably be able

19:49

to raise our walls with humming,

19:51

or something like the pyramids,

19:53

however they do all these odd things.

19:55

I thought maybe we could levitate the walls into place.

19:58

(laughs) and the roofs.

20:01

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That didn't happen.

20:05

We raised them, but it took more than...

20:08

The old fashioned way.

20:12

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So we had plans for a communal house,

20:15

but that never really happened.

20:19

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What really made it possible for us to stay out there

20:21

was have a camper on the back of my truck,

20:24

and that's what we lived in while we built

20:27

that dome kitchen.

20:29

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What kind of truck was it?

20:31

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I think a Ford.

20:33

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Ford.

20:34

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Red Ford truck.

20:35

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Like a Ranger or something like that?

20:36

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Yeah, just--

20:38

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Something else.

F something.

20:39

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F-150.

20:41

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Yeah.

20:42

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Okay, okay.

20:43

So you build a kitchen.

20:46

First you build a tool shed.

20:48

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Yeah.

20:51

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Then you build a kitchen.

20:52

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Yeah, we had problems with the water moccasins.

20:55

Georgeann was standing up on a table

20:58

shooting her gun at the water moccasin to kill it.

21:00

It was in our tent kitchen.

21:03

So then Pat sent the stuff down to build a dome,

21:06

so then we worked on that, while Bluejay was there.

21:11

Bluejay and Wolfspider and us.

21:14

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And it went up pretty fast.

21:18

That dome went up pretty fast.

21:19

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Yeah, we had a nice wood floor.

21:20

Sue was another person, the pharmacist.

21:21

She donated some wood floor from her farm.

21:24

They were tearing down a building or something,

21:29

so we got some nice hardwood floor for it.

21:31

-

Who was Sue?

21:33

-

Sue Watson.

21:34

-

Sue?

21:35

-

Do you know her?

21:36

-

Yeah, I know Sue Watson.

21:36

She still lives around there, doesn't she?

21:38

-

Yeah.

21:40

-

She moved a camper trailer on our land sometime later,

21:41

but now she has her own place.

21:43

-

And what was Bluejay staying in?

21:46

-

In the tent with Georgeann, I think.

21:50

Unless she had her own tent.

21:53

But she may have...

21:54

Oh, no. I think she may have had a van.

21:56

She may have had a van,

21:59

because they were big on having

22:00

your own place.

22:01

-

Your own space.

22:03

-

Bluejay was constantly...

22:04

I don't know if she was after me or what,

22:06

but she was trying to get Gail and I

22:07

to have separate bedrooms.

22:10

-

Which Gail was not interested in (laughs).

22:12

I'm real hard to get to do something

22:19

if I don't want to do it.

22:21

-

(laughs)

22:22

-

Nearly impossible.

22:23

-

So you're building the dome, got a lot of things donated

22:26

for that dome kitchen.

22:29

-

And Pat Dunbar was very generous.

22:30

She bought us boots.

22:35

She bought us down jackets.

22:37

She bought supplies.

22:41

-

A down comforter.

22:45

-

She sent food.

22:46

Things we never thought we needed (laughs).

22:53

-

Right.

22:56

-

Came in handy.

22:58

-

And were you still working on your degrees?

23:01

Was that why you needed the typewriter?

23:03

-

You had an old manual typewriter

23:06

in the back of that truck, didn't you?

23:08

Up on a shelf?

23:11

-

Yeah.

23:12

-

I don't know if you worked on it up there or not.

23:13

-

I don't know.

23:13

-

Once we had the dome kitchen, she could put it in there.

23:15

But yeah, it was during that time

23:18

that they wanted her to redo her whole dissertation thing.

23:20

She thought, well I could...

23:26

I don't know if it's worth it.

23:29

I said, "Why don't you not think about it for a while?"

23:32

I think that was after Christmas.

23:35

We got water at Thanksgiving,

23:38

so we didn't haul water that long.

23:41

-

Oh, that's pretty... from February to Thanksgiving?

23:43

-

No, let's see.

23:45

February to Thanksgiving is a long time.

23:46

-

It's a long time to haul water.

23:48

-

Yeah, yeah.

23:50

That's right.

23:51

I guess we hauled it through that summer.

23:52

-

Damn.

23:55

-

You were young.

23:56

-

Uh-huh.

23:58

-

I tell you, you know, I realize now

23:59

that not having a memory is a blessing (laughs).

24:01

-

We did not haul that water in the car

24:05

from up at the Goman's up our hill.

24:07

Pat Dunbar had made an aluminum cart

24:10

that we pulled up that hill.

24:15

Luckily, when it was full we were coming downhill.

24:17

-

It was at least the size of this desk.

24:20

-

Yeah, about from here over.

24:23

-

It was big.

24:24

-

Aluminum, we still have it.

24:25

-

Big wheels.

24:26

-

Never rusts.

24:27

-

But it worked, because it was made out of aluminum.

24:28

It was light.

24:30

And it had sides where you could just...

24:33

-

Actually, was it that fall?

24:36

We had been there through the summer?

24:42

Was it that first fall we got water?

24:45

Because that was when you decided

24:47

you needed to go to work,

24:49

so we could have money to buy a well.

24:51

So I guess that was the first fall we were there.

24:53

I was thinking you were--

24:56

-

I remember Holly Springs to see about a teaching job,

24:57

but I mean...

25:00

-

They'd start you up.

25:03

-

I took my resume.

25:05

-

Okay, it's still 1980, and you need--

25:10

-

We got a well at Thanksgiving.

25:17

Thanksgiving we went to Merrill's.

25:19

We had blocked everything off so nobody...

25:22

We thought we had blocked things off,

25:24

so nobody could come in and steal stuff,

25:28

because we had some things stolen

25:30

when we had our tools in a tent.

25:32

The well man came in and put the well down,

25:35

and came around everything we parked there.

25:37

He came in and did it while we were gone.

25:39

We thought he was going to wait until after we got back.

25:41

-

Wow.

25:43

-

So we weren't sure how deep it was,

25:44

but I think it's 250 feet.

25:45

-

Yeah.

25:47

-

And that was at--

25:48

-

Still working.

-

And you bought the land in 82, right?

25:51

-

Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.

25:52

Yeah, we bought in 82, not...

25:54

-

So all this is in 82.

25:55

-

Let's see.

25:57

We got together in 80.

25:58

Yeah, we were messing around at the farm,

25:59

and that was for two years.

26:01

-

Living in those different places,

26:03

and then in 82--

26:04

-

82--

-

That was 82, okay.

26:06

-

You get the land, and then Thanksgiving--

26:08

That weekend in 82.

26:09

-

Yeah, and then we got the well over Thanksgiving.

26:10

-

Oh, that was wonderful.

26:13

-

When did you start building your house?

26:15

Or what was the next structure out there?

26:18

-

The next structure was the geodesic dome kitchen.

26:21

-

No, we already did that.

26:24

-

Oh, we did that?

26:25

-

Well, we did... Okay, we did a tool shed.

26:27

-

Yeah.

26:29

-

And the dome.

26:30

-

And the dome, and the kitchen.

26:31

-

And the yert.

26:32

-

Geodesic dome, is that what it is?

26:33

A geodesic dome?

26:35

-

Yeah.

26:36

-

Well, I don't...

26:37

-

It's not real big.

26:37

It's a small--

26:39

-

I didn't think

those had overhangs?

26:40

-

No, this isn't a round kind of dome.

26:41

-

It's kind of triangular.

26:44

-

It doesn't have overhand.

26:46

-

I know, but you said--

26:49

-

I don't know if I got pictures.

26:50

What?

26:52

-

I thought you said it needed an overhang.

26:53

-

It did, because when the roof...

26:54

The roof starts before the side still goes on out.

26:56

Some of them go in, and some of them go out,

27:00

and the water hits the side.

27:03

Rocks the plywood.

27:05

So we tried gutters.

27:09

Now, Ayla has covered most of those with metal.

27:13

So that may last longer.

27:18

-

What was the next structure then?

27:20

-

We worked on our cabin.

27:22

-

You started working on your cabin.

27:24

Like that year?

27:26

-

Yeah, we must have.

27:28

Let me see if I've got it in here.

27:31

-

When did the yert go up?

27:33

-

That was in 82, we were working on that.

27:34

-

So a lot of structures the first year.

27:40

-

Yes (laughs).

27:42

-

So it's tent, dome, yert?

27:44

Or... yeah.

27:47

-

Tent, dome, yert.

27:49

-

Yeah, we had our topper on the back of the truck.

27:52

That's what we did.

27:55

-

The kitchen is a dome,

27:57

and Pat's structure is a yert, one of the cabins.

27:58

Was somebody knocking?

28:04

-

No.

28:05

-

Let's just check.

28:06

-

82.

28:08

-

Okay, so--

28:09

-

Let me see what I've got.

Okay, here's 82.

28:11

A spring and summer built dome kitchen and gardened.

28:12

Okay, we first saw the land Friday the 13th,

28:20

and the 14th we brought everybody out on Valentine's Day.

28:25

Alicia, Robin, Pat, Sue... Sue Watson came out.

28:28

She lived in Oxford,

28:32

and she had a lover in Memphis, Deborah... Deb.

28:34

And Georgeann.

28:39

Why have I got three years?

28:43

Oh, I've got Georgeann was there three years,

28:44

and Alicia and Robin were there one month.

28:46

Group

(laughs)

28:49

-

Say that again.

28:53

Lisa and Robin lasted a month.

28:55

-

Yeah.

28:58

-

That weekend with the ice storm, right?

28:59

-

Yep, and then they went to California,

29:01

and they lived on... I think Sally Gearhart's land,

29:02

or something--

29:06

-

Wow, Wunderground.

-

I think they went out there and met her.

29:09

Georgeann was there three years, Wolfspider,

29:13

and I've got 22nd was when the Lone Star Farm closed.

29:18

Same month.

29:24

-

Me too.

29:25

-

Wow.

29:26

-

Robin and Alicia one month.

29:30

-

I've got Sue and Deb built the foundation for the dome.

29:34

-

Sue and Deb did? Hm.

29:39

_ I don't know what that means,

29:41

but Sue almost... Oh, no.

29:44

This was... That may be on Sue's land,

29:46

because Sue almost lost her thumb.

29:49

We went down there to help Sue build a greenhouse,

29:51

and several of us saw something dangerous going on

29:55

with feeding the wood into the saw,

29:58

and we didn't say anything,

30:01

and Sue almost cut her thumb off.

30:02

So after that one thing around the farm

30:05

was if you see something dangerous, say it.

30:07

Don't wait, because she had to go to the hospital.

30:10

Luckily she got it sewed back on.

30:13

-

And that's women's land, just the two of them,

30:19

just up the road from you by the house, or whatever.

30:22

-

It was Sue's house, really.

30:25

-

So that never was really Women's Land?

30:28

-

No, and I don't think really Deb lived there.

30:31

She lived in Memphis, I think.

30:34

-

For a long time.

30:35

-

She just lived there with her son,

30:37

until she moved out with us.

30:39

Her son must have moved in with her husband,

30:42

and she moved out to our land in a trailer.

30:45

Okay, September we started Cedar Place and Dogwood.

30:48

Okay, that's September of 82.

30:53

-

Cedar Place and Dogwood is what?

30:55

-

Okay, Cedar Place is our place.

30:57

We started ours, and Georgeann and Bluejay started--

30:59

-

Georgeann's?

31:04

-

Georgeann's Dogwood house.

31:05

That's the one that Ayla lives in now.

31:07

-

That's both of them started in September?

31:11

-

Yeah.

31:15

I left out, in February and March it was so cold

31:16

and rainy, Wolfspider and Gail and I took a trip

31:21

to the Gulf Coast (laughs) for resting.

31:26

-

It was wonderful, too.

31:32

-

We took off in the red truck, animals in...

31:33

I don't know if we took our animals.

31:37

I know she took her blue mud.

31:39

We must've taken Poo.

31:42

I don't know if we took our cats or not.

31:43

We may have left them in the house in town.

31:45

-

Yeah, I think they were still in town.

31:47

I don't think...

31:50

-

In November, we had two new members.

31:51

-

Who were they?

31:56

-

Cher Stewart moved in, my ex lover.

31:57

She used to live at the farm.

32:00

She moved a bus in.

32:02

-

Oh, did she?

32:05

-

So not Sheree?

32:07

-

Right.

32:08

-

Okay.

32:09

-

Cher Stewart, New Orleans artist, Memphis artist.

32:10

She had bought a bus up in New England somewhere

32:16

and drove it through Knoxville during the Olympics

32:19

with mud thrown on the plate so she wouldn't

32:24

have to get a license (laughs).

32:25

-

Is this like a bus-bus or like a school bus?

32:30

-

Yes, like a school bus.

32:32

-

A big bus,

32:33

and she lived in it for a while,

32:35

and Sue moved a trailer in, so that was that November.

32:38

Frannie bought land somewhere else up in Tennessee.

32:44

Probably that November.

32:47

-

Two new members in November.

32:52

Cher Stewart and a Sue...

32:54

-

Sue Watson.

32:57

-

Sue Watson.

32:58

-

What year are we up to?

32:59

-

Still on 82.

33:00

-

We're just 82, the first year we moved in.

33:01

-

Oh, my.

33:03

-

And who is Sue Watson?

33:04

-

She was the pharmacist that brought

33:05

the rabbit shit (laughs).

33:06

-

She taught at Ole Miss.

33:10

-

She was in pharmacy at Ole Miss,

33:11

had a lover in Memphis.

33:15

She had been at our ritual.

33:19

She was the one that said, "We're gonna have to really

33:20

"Look for land this week."

33:23

-

Oh, Sue Watson was at that ritual?

33:24

-

Yeah, she was at that ritual with Deb.

33:26

-

Oh, I'll have to add that too.

33:27

-

So Deb was at that ritual.

33:28

-

Deb was at that ritual?

33:30

That's two new women, Sue Watson and Deb Conlin.

33:31

-

I don't remember who all was at that ritual.

33:34

-

That was a big one, yeah.

33:36

-

That was a big ritual.

33:37

-

But Sue already lived out there?

33:38

-

Sue lived in Oxford.

33:41

-

Oh, okay, so she didn't have that land

33:42

that her and Deb--

33:45

-

No, she got that later.

-

Okay.

33:48

-

Yeah, after she lived with us she found that land.

33:49

I guess she and Deb found that land.

33:52

-

Yeah, because Deb still owns that land.

33:54

-

Okay, I'm lost.

33:57

-

Yeah, you don't have to know all that.

33:58

-

Later on, they bought some land is what you're telling me.

33:59

-

Yeah.

34:01

-

Yeah, Sue and Deb.

34:02

-

Yeah, like within 10 miles of us.

34:03

-

It never was a communal type of place

34:05

where Sue and Deb lived.

34:07

-

But they did have a festival over there.

34:08

They had festivals over there.

34:10

-

They had Well Springs Women's Festivals.

34:12

-

Yeah, for two or three years.

34:13

-

For two or three years, which was interesting.

34:14

-

Big thing.

34:16

-

Which we could put in the cultural part.

34:17

It was a big festival.

34:19

I went to it all of the times that it happened.

34:21

It was... I mean...

34:23

Few hundred people, well organized.

34:26

(mumbles) I met her out there.

34:28

-

Oh, yeah.

34:31

-

At that very first Well Springs.

34:32

It was cold, and we camped out on Sue and Deb's land.

34:33

It was significant that they're part of this

34:38

initial to write about, that's cool.

34:40

-

Yeah, they were.

34:43

And they got turned on to women's land

34:44

going to the southern festival.

34:46

They went to the Hensen's festival before we went.

34:48

-

And that's what inspired Deb

34:52

to do this Well Springs Festival a number of years ago,

34:54

but I can figure out the years of those later.

34:57

Back to your thing.

35:00

-

It was mainly just Gail and I working.

35:02

Sometimes we'd get...

35:05

When we got to the roof part,

35:06

we had to get Georgeann to climb up there

35:08

and nail the aluminum on the roof,

35:09

but we were working the spring of 83.

35:13

I think Georgeann returned from North Woods,

35:17

so she must've gone away for the winter.

35:21

-

She did.

35:24

-

To the north for the winter?

35:26

-

Uh-huh.

35:27

-

We moved into Cedar Place as soon as we could,

35:29

and we just had plastic on some of the walls.

35:31

We had a roof and plastic and a north wall.

35:34

We moved in (laughs).

35:38

-

It sounds like that was spring of 83.

35:40

-

It faced south, so we got the solar.

35:43

-

So a year from when you bought it,

35:45

you moved in, essentially. Pretty close.

35:49

-

Yeah, we must've worked on it that winter.

35:52

-

We did.

35:55

-

March, oh. That March we had a vacation.

35:57

We were about ready to kill each other by March.

36:00

-

Is it in 83?

36:02

-

March of 83 we were just exhausted.

36:04

Pat Dunbar offered us a vacation

36:08

to Denver and Yellowstone to drive her father's car out,

36:12

because he wanted his car out

36:17

when he went gambling in Las Vegas (laughs).

36:19

-

When we did it was wonderful.

36:24

-

And going through Yellowstone.

36:26

-

When we drove into Yellowstone there was snow, icy frost,

36:28

and you can't drive in that.

36:32

-

And I was having terrible stomach trouble.

36:34

I was... I didn't know what I was having.

36:37

I don't know if it was gallbladder or...

36:39

I don't know what I was having,

36:42

but I was having stomach pain.

36:44

We'd been trying to do all kinds of healing.

36:45

The first night out on the road, we drove

36:48

with Pat and Annabelle toward Denver,

36:50

and the first morning I got up,

36:53

Gail did all kinds of healing on me.

36:54

That first morning, I got up in the motel room

36:57

and it was gone, and it didn't come back.

37:00

-

Stress.

37:03

-

Yeah, we'd be working on opposite ends of the land.

37:04

We'd cross each other, and we'd have a little argument.

37:07

Group

(laughs)

37:10

-

You have so much negative energy.

37:14

-

I don't know what we were doing

37:17

on opposite ends of the land,

37:18

but getting away from each other I guess.

37:20

Anyway, Georgeann and Sue were not getting along.

37:22

Sue buys her place, so she bought her place

37:25

in spring of 83.

37:28

Sells Pat her pole.

37:33

-

Okay, let me get this straight.

37:36

-

Sue moved out off the spring of 83.

37:39

She and Georgeann did not get along

37:42

while we were gone to Denver.

37:44

-

Okay, and she left her trailer on your land?

37:46

-

No, she took it with her.

37:49

-

Took it.

37:50

-

She had a small trailer, a travel trailer.

37:51

-

Listen to this woman, she needs to get some information.

37:54

-

What did you want to know?

37:58

-

I'm just trying to get it straight.

37:59

In spring Georgeann moves off the land.

38:01

-

No, no. Sue moved off.

38:02

-

Sue moves off the land.

38:05

-

Yeah.

38:06

-

She was not getting along with Georgeann.

38:07

-

Well, they had trouble.

38:09

Their buildings were too close together,

38:12

and Sue had night fears, and she left her light on,

38:14

and Georgeann did not like that she left her light on,

38:18

so she build a private hedge between their houses,

38:22

which were probably a hundred feet apart or more,

38:26

which we're still trying to get rid of.

38:30

-

So Sue moves off the land, taking her trailer.

38:34

-

Yeah, and she bought her own place about 10 miles away.

38:36

-

Still lives there.

38:40

-

Yeah.

38:41

-

Okay, so you start with seven and then there's nine,

38:48

and then there's these two who go.

38:51

-

Now, yeah, so there's still...

38:53

See, not everybody was living there.

38:55

Pat and Annabelle were not living there.

38:57

Alicia and Robin left, so that left Georgeann and us.

38:58

Then the other two came.

39:03

-

Who?

39:05

-

So that was Sue and...

39:06

-

Bluejay?

39:12

-

No, Bluejay's left.

39:14

-

It's in 83...

39:15

-

It's just Sue and Georgeann while we were gone to Denver.

39:18

-

You had two new members, though.

39:24

Cher?

39:26

-

Yes, Cher is still there in her bus drinking (laughs).

39:28

You don't have to put that in.

39:31

But I was going to ask Cher to leave.

39:33

Cher has always had an alcohol problem.

39:34

I was going to ask her to leave.

39:36

She moved her bus to Sue's land.

39:37

Group

(laughs)

39:40

-

Oh, me.

39:43

Down the road and around the corner.

39:45

Okay, let me get this straight.

39:48

Okay, we have--

39:52

-

You can't diagram it

on your computer (laughs)?

39:55

-

Annabelle and Pat--

39:57

-

They never lived there.

-

Never?

39:59

-

They spent one night in a travel trailer

40:00

while they were working on their cabin,

40:03

and Annabelle had never held a hammer.

40:05

It was very frustrating to Pat.

40:07

They almost broke up that weekend.

40:09

Well, I shouldn't say... You wouldn't write that down,

40:11

but they did not have a good time.

40:13

-

Okay, and then Alicia--

40:15

-

And Robin went to California.

40:17

-

They spent that bad weekend in the land.

40:20

-

They were there a month.

40:22

-

They weren't real happy with it either.

40:23

-

California...

40:26

And then Georgeann is not with anybody, right?

40:28

At first?

40:32

-

She was with Bluejay.

40:33

-

Bluejay.

40:36

-

Bluejay was there at the beginning.

40:36

-

Bluejay is not on there.

40:38

-

Bluejay might have been at that ritual.

40:39

I'm not sure.

40:40

I'm not sure when she came in.

40:42

I'll have to ask.

40:43

-

(mumbles)

40:45

-

So we've got Georgeann, Bluejay, Gail, and Gwen.

40:48

-

And Sue moved in.

40:52

-

And then Sue in 83.

40:54

-

Sue and Cher.

40:57

-

Sue and Cher.

40:58

-

Separately, in separate vehicles.

41:00

-

Okay.

41:02

-

Cher had a bus, and Sue had a travel trailer.

41:03

-

Bus, travel trailer, and Cher has an alcohol problem.

41:06

-

And Sue probably did too, but she ended up going to AA.

41:13

-

Sue moves and buys her own land.

41:17

-

She bought her own land.

41:20

She and Deb bought their own land.

41:21

Over at Water Valley.

41:25

-

This is the spring of 83?

41:26

-

Mm-hm.

41:29

I was going to ask Cher to move in the fall of 83,

41:34

but I think she did it without me asking her.

41:37

She would get drunk and get--

41:40

-

Mean.

-

Give me hell.

41:45

-

She was real mean at first.

41:46

-

And then the next day she didn't understand

41:48

why Gail can get drunk and I wouldn't get mad at Gail,

41:49

but I got mad at Cher.

41:52

-

I was happy drunk.

41:53

Happy, happy, happy drunk.

41:54

-

Cher would get drunk and be no fun,

41:56

and then the next day say, "what's wrong with you?"

41:57

(laughs)

41:59

Okay, so Cher left in the fall of 83.

42:03

-

And when did Bluejay leave?

42:08

-

She had... I don't remember.

42:09

-

She wasn't there too long.

42:11

-

No, she wasn't.

42:13

-

So she didn't go with...

42:14

-

I think she was living over in Arkansas maybe.

42:15

She was there for the beginnings.

42:19

-

There for the beginning.

42:21

-

A month or two, I just can't remember.

42:21

-

And then she moved out?

42:24

-

Mm-hm.

42:25

-

And Georgeann was left.

42:26

So that leaves you and Gail and Georgeann.

42:27

Group

Yeah.

42:31

-

So those are the three...

42:33

-

And when did Ayla show up?

42:35

-

First visited us in the winter in November.

42:37

-

Winter of 83?

42:40

-

83.

42:42

-

Okay.

42:43

-

On her way from North Woods.

42:44

She stayed in Cher's bus.

42:46

I wonder where Cher was (laughs).

42:48

-

She hadn't moved it yet, I bet.

42:51

-

Well, Cher did artwork somewhere.

42:52

-

She may have gone to New Orleans, I don't know.

42:55

-

She did artwork in New Orleans.

42:57

-

Let's go ahead and get all of this down

43:00

while you're--

43:02

-

You don't want to know

all of these visitors, do you?

43:03

-

Well, if they stayed for any length of time, I do.

43:05

-

If it's what?

43:06

-

If they stayed for any length of time.

43:07

-

Oh, well.

43:09

Okay, now here... Jude and Mara visited.

43:10

I believe, so that means we were building the bathhouse.

43:14

So spring of 84 we started the bathhouse.

43:18

Merrill and Mary were there,

43:21

and Jude and Mara.

43:25

And I've got Earth down here on her way back to North Woods.

43:29

-

Mara and who?

43:35

-

Mara and Jude.

43:40

I think goes by... I think she's in Maize now.

43:43

Seems like she goes by another name.

43:46

She messed up something in the bathhouse.

43:49

Anyway, let's see.

43:51

Gail set Gwen's knees out, scares Georgeann.

43:55

Lake trip to Jen and Pam's land summer.

43:59

Merrill came for solstice.

44:05

So we're working on our house all that spring and summer.

44:09

I guess, although, our house must've been

44:14

pretty livable then, because I think Merrill and Mary

44:17

stayed with us in the house when they came.

44:21

-

Well we got the roof on.

44:30

-

Now, we're still working on the porch,

44:31

but that was later.

44:33

We had the porch after we had the cabin.

44:34

That freezer from (mumbles).

44:37

-

That's a good thing about porches,

44:39

means you get the roof on.

44:41

And then you just wrap it up in whatever.

44:43

-

Okay, so Athena arrived that fall.

44:47

Our little girl that wanted to come to women's land.

44:50

That was fall of 84.

44:56

-

That's your--

44:58

-

Apprentice.

-

Apprentice.

45:00

-

And the Leak happened.

45:02

-

Who?

45:04

-

Yes, the first Leak.

45:05

-

October, we went to Leak.

45:06

-

On women's land.

45:11

-

And I think we took somebody with us,

45:13

maybe Athena, but there was another woman

45:16

I think that went with us.

45:19

But I don't have her name down.

45:22

Naj, that's who I was thinking of.

45:24

Naj visited sometime.

45:25

-

Oh, Naj.

45:28

-

How do you spell that?

45:29

-

N-A-J.

45:30

-

How long did they apprentice stay?

45:31

-

She's in Maize now.

45:32

I can't remember where she is.

45:33

-

I think she was at that (mumbles).

45:34

That name is familiar, but I don't know...

45:35

-

It's Jan, she reversed the Jan.

45:38

-

Oh, of course.

45:40

Jan spelled backwards.

45:41

-

I don't know how long she actually stayed.

45:41

-

You have the apprentice.

45:43

-

She left in the spring of 85.

45:45

She fell in love with Sue.

45:47

Sue decided Athena was going to be her

45:50

little Jewish girlfriend.

45:52

-

And what does Naj look like?

45:58

-

Dark, kind of Mediterranean looking dark.

46:01

-

Who?

46:05

-

Naj.

46:07

-

Sturdy, built.

46:07

-

Later I want to show you my way back pictures.

46:09

Maybe you can identify some of the people.

46:10

They aren't going to look the same anymore, but...

46:12

-

Maybe.

46:14

We had some visiting women come the spring of 85.

46:15

Janet Gold-something. She was writing a book.

46:20

I think we're in it, and she and her girlfriend...

46:23

They were in a carpenter collective,

46:28

and they put up a little shed for us.

46:31

We had all the stuff, and they said "Well, this'll be fun."

46:33

(laughs)

46:36

We had all the pieces, and they put up our shed

46:37

out by our house.

46:40

-

Which was wonderful when we had a place

46:42

to store our tools

46:44

-

Because the other tool place didn't hold up.

46:45

-

It was way down at the other end of the land.

46:49

-

Oh, location.

46:51

-

Ah-ha! Gwen's first Women Rights, maybe 85.

46:53

I don't know. Some of this is iffy.

46:59

I've got Merrill and Mary 84.

47:02

Mara and Naj, I think...

47:08

I've got Jude. I don't know if that's the same person.

47:11

Started the bathhouse 84.

47:14

Let's see, Pat and Annabelle building the cabin.

47:18

That wasn't until 85, they started.

47:20

August 85 they started the yert.

47:24

-

That was an interesting experience,

47:27

building the yert.

47:30

-

Building the yert?

47:32

-

Them trying to build together.

47:33

-

Oh, yeah.

47:34

I'm thinking that Pat may have had some guys from her work

47:36

come down and do the foundation.

47:40

-

She did.

47:42

-

Because it's the only building on our land

47:43

that has foundations into the ground, concrete.

47:44

Just pilings into the ground.

47:48

And we were having a garden back then.

48:03

We were trying to grow asparagus and snow peas,

48:05

and everything else.

48:09

-

(laughs)

48:11

-

We also tried to have a garden up in the back field,

48:13

which is where there was more sun, and that was a fiasco.

48:16

No water up there.

48:20

-

Oh, yeah.

48:22

-

Walking up this hill through the pinewoods.

48:24

-

Do y'all know Arden Kate?

48:32

You know Arden, don't you?

48:33

-

Arden Eversmire?

48:35

-

What?

48:36

-

I know Arden Eversmire.

48:37

-

This one lives over in Fayetteville now.

48:38

-

They were here?

48:40

-

That's who it is.

48:42

-

Evers-what?

48:43

-

Eversmire.

48:44

She's doing the whole lesbian nursery project.

48:44

She's had two volumes of memoirs.

48:50

-

I don't know if our Arden would be organized

48:53

enough to do that.

48:54

She's going by some other name.

48:56

I think she's going by her mother's name,

48:59

her grandmother's name, Arden.

49:02

-

Well, anyway.

49:05

-

She had her 45th birthday in 85,

49:07

and 46th, so that'd be...

49:11

-

Who are we talking about now?

49:16

-

Arden Kate. Arden Kate!

49:18

That's what she went by.

49:19

-

Kate, Arden Kate.

49:21

-

K-A-T-E.

49:22

She lived down in Little Rock at the time.

49:25

And Ruth Ready was a Mississippi girl, I think,

49:28

who went with us to that, and found the love

49:31

of her life over there and moved to Arkansas (laughs).

49:33

-

Went to Arkansas?

49:38

-

Arden Kate's birthday.

49:41

-

Over in Little Rock.

49:43

-

In Little Rock.

49:44

-

That's right, those two just...

49:47

-

Hit it off.

49:48

-

I mean, they--

49:49

-

They moved

to Conway, Arkansas.

49:51

I think they're still there, last I heard.

49:52

-

Lord.

49:54

-

And then that fall...

49:56

Interesting, okay.

50:02

There were two women that came to apprentice with us

50:04

in the fall of 85.

50:06

-

What?

50:08

-

Katie and Morocco, and I don't have last names right now.

50:09

-

Katie, K-A-T-I-E?

50:13

-

Mm-hm.

50:15

Morocco.

50:16

I've got pictures somewhere,

50:18

and also Kathy and Marianne came.

50:20

They came here.

50:24

-

Marianne.

50:26

-

Kathy Steed and Marianne Bilyles.

50:27

They saw us in Maize or LC and they wanted to come visit.

50:30

So that's how we met them.

50:35

-

(mumbles)

50:39

-

Do they what?

50:40

-

Do they live on women's land?

50:41

-

Well, sort of.

50:42

They like to grow things,

50:43

and they usually live in the country,

50:44

and well yeah, I think Kathy's got

50:46

a big ol' green house now.

50:49

-

Does she have any other women out there?

50:52

-

They're taking care of Marianne's father.

50:54

It may be on his land.

50:58

-

I think he's passed on.

51:00

-

Has he? Hm.

51:02

Spring of 86, Katie and Morocco are still there.

51:07

They must've stayed a while.

51:12

Pat and Annabelle move from Memphis to Tuscaloosa.

51:16

This to Pat and Annabelle on what are Women Rights.

51:24

Let's see, we visited Marianne and Kathy.

51:28

Who in the hell is this?

51:34

Pauline Gold and Karen Osborn from Florida?

51:35

-

I don't know.

51:38

-

Ever heard of them?

51:39

-

Never heard of them.

51:41

-

Jo and Janice Midwest Festival.

51:43

-

Let's see, Natalie Lanning, Sasha, Hertha.

51:45

-

Hertha?

51:50

-

Hertha.

51:51

-

Hertha. Remember Hertha?

51:52

-

She lived in Kansas City after a while.

51:53

-

Really?

51:55

-

Big woman.

51:57

-

Yes, she did. She and Gail shared a vision of our old age.

51:58

She did readings for both of us,

52:04

and they were both crying when she was doing my reading.

52:07

I didn't know what was going on.

52:09

She said, "Oh, it's just a beautiful old age!"

52:12

They were over there crying,

52:14

floating out in the aethers together.

52:16

-

I never had...

52:18

I had had visions by myself,

52:19

but I had never shared a vision with another person.

52:22

It was like I just knew she was right here,

52:25

and we were looking at the same picture show.

52:28

-

Wow.

52:30

-

It was a trip.

52:32

-

And it was three women.

52:33

I don't know if it was Ayla or not,

52:35

but wasn't it three women,

52:37

and they had black hoods on or something?

52:38

Black clothes.

52:40

I don't know what all that meant.

52:41

It's witchy stuff, maybe.

52:42

Kate Ellison, I think we met in August.

52:44

-

That's our Kate here, isn't it? Ellison?

52:49

-

Ellison, yeah.

52:52

-

And Beth visited.

52:53

Oh, Beth.

52:55

Red, red bird at yert.

53:01

Who is Beth? Castlebury and Dupree in Little Rock.

53:05

Wolfspider picked up her stuff.

53:12

Okay, Wolfspider left fall of 86.

53:14

October...

53:19

-

Where did she go to?

53:24

-

She went...

53:26

Didn't she move back out west?

53:33

-

I think so. I don't...

53:35

It doesn't matter.

53:37

-

Back to San Francisco.

53:38

And we went to the Fort Smith retreat

53:40

and met Kathy Buckaloo.

53:42

She came back with us, I think.

53:46

In the winter, Gail put her PhD on hold

53:48

and stopped the winter of 86.

53:51

-

Put up what?

53:53

-

Your PhD on hold.

53:54

-

Oh.

53:57

-

Ah, first bath in bathhouse, December 23rd, 86.

54:00

Group

(laughs)

54:08

-

It meant we had a well, we had finished the bathhouse

54:13

early enough (mumbles).

54:17

-

And we had a ritual before... somewhere in there

54:18

we had a ritual where our Moon Lodge people

54:21

came out and we slept in a circle.

54:23

I think with all our heads together, our feet together,

54:26

or something--

54:28

-

Heads.

-

Yeah, there it is.

54:33

January 1st, head to head sleeping in bathhouse ritual.

54:34

-

In the bathhouse or next to it?

54:39

-

In it.

54:41

I think before we had...

54:42

No, we already had the bathtub.

54:43

-

And this is one one 87?

54:47

-

87.

54:49

Emily was there, Francy, Denise--

54:51

-

Well the bathhouse is 16 foot square, so...

54:53

-

This is our own Moon Lodge,

54:55

even with a couple of straight women.

54:58

It looks like, maybe Jackie wasn't even there.

55:02

I've got Jackie, Denise, Emily, G and G, so five people.

55:05

Maybe it's just the five of us.

55:09

-

No Emily? Emily?

55:11

-

She's a straight woman we know.

55:14

-

But was she there? I'm just trying to get that together.

55:17

-

Yeah.

55:20

-

Emily--

55:21

-

Those three women

are straight women, Emily, Francy, and Denise.

55:23

-

And Jackie is...

55:25

-

No, Jackie wasn't there.

55:26

-

Okay.

55:28

-

Jackie's straight.

55:29

She's now on the other side recently.

55:30

So I don't know why we didn't have any lesbians there.

55:34

Maybe we did.

55:37

Maybe I just didn't write them down.

55:38

Okay, the spring of 87 Mara Posa came to visit

55:43

and live in a tent.

55:49

In the summer Jeanie and Paula Marie.

55:51

Let's see... Paula Marie Daughter and Jeanie Neath.

55:54

Jeanie Neath. I think her name was Neath.

55:59

N-E-A-T-H.

56:01

They lived there for the summer.

56:03

Not for the whole summer.

56:05

They went to St. Paul, Arkansas in July.

56:09

-

That's a good time to leave Mississippi.

56:14

Group

(laughs)

56:16

-

I don't have much written down for 87,

56:24

except Mara Posa, and I can't tell you

56:25

much about her.

56:28

-

She was on land.

56:31

-

She was from Arkansas, I think.

56:32

-

This sounds so much like the Women Land to me.

56:33

-

Really?

56:36

-

The people coming and going.

56:36

The vagueness about who's really part of it

56:39

and who's not really part of it.

56:46

-

Yeah, because I remember Mara Posa was there

56:49

when Jeanie and Paula was there, and Georgeann wasn't.

56:51

-

But they're just staying there,

56:54

they're not really--

56:56

-

not permanent.

-

Well, you kind of hope they will.

56:58

-

You never know.

56:59

-

You hope they will.

57:00

-

Well, I knew Jeanie and Paula were planning on...

57:01

We were pretty sure they were planning on moving on.

57:03

They were trying to save money

57:06

to buy their own land in Arkansas.

57:08

I don't know what Mara Posa was doing.

57:11

-

I don't think she knew either.

57:15

-

She was living in a tent,

57:16

and Jeanie and Paula were living in the yert,

57:18

but then at one point when Georgeann left,

57:21

Jeanie moved into Dogwood.

57:24

So they had separate spaces for a while.

57:27

It seems like Mara Posa...

57:31

I don't know if Mara Posa ever lived

57:33

in one of the buildings.

57:35

We met Ayla the summer of 88.

57:42

She had written us, and she was going to be coming

57:46

around the time of Mary's party.

57:50

So we said, "Let's meet you in Tennessee."

57:55

Either at Merrill's or Mary's.

57:59

I've got Mary's, summer of 88.

58:01

So we met her there, and I think she came

58:06

on down home with us.

58:10

-

Who is this now?

58:14

-

Ayla.

58:15

-

Oh, yeah.

58:16

-

So that was 88.

58:17

We're getting names and everything.

58:21

I guess that's okay.

58:23

-

I think we need to stop for a while.

58:25

-

Yeah.

58:26

-

We're going to have to (mumbles),

58:27

because we've already talked for an hour.

58:30

-

Well, and I don't...

58:32

We haven't really talked much about feelings,

58:33

but I don't know if you want to.

58:34

-

(laughs)

58:36

-

Yeah, if you want to.

58:37

I really do want to.

58:38

It's good to get the framework down of the times,

58:39

and so, you know, distracted by that.

58:43

But I think feelings is an interesting part,

58:46

and the dreams and the visions.

58:48

-

What people really contributed,

58:51

or stuff they were going to do,

58:53

or how long they planned to stay.

58:55

-

If I could borrow that book, maybe I could go ahead

58:57

and make a little timeline, and we can use that

58:59

to kind of touch base, while you talk.

59:01

-

This is real sketchy.

59:05

We're up to 88.

59:06

-

Yeah.

59:08

-

And some of this--

59:09

-

Well, if you let her borrow it then she can see,

59:11

she might see--

59:13

-

Some of this stuff in here

is not important to you, I don't think.

59:15

But you can borrow it if you're up to it.

59:16

-

Well, I'll just do it while I'm here.

59:20

I won't ... Unless I fall asleep.

59:21

-

I've got people's names in here,

59:24

but some of them were just visitors, you know?

59:26

-

It's okay.

59:29

I think that would be useful to have.

59:30

-

Because it's how people cross paths

59:33

and connect with each other.

59:35

-

And this might just be like an appendix to the interview.

59:39

The, sort of, timeline that you kept up with.

59:42

Is this like your guest book,

59:47

or more of your journal?

59:48

-

No, this is my time book (laughs).

59:49

-

Your what?

59:53

-

Keeping a page for every year.

59:54

-

Okay.

59:57

-

Just so you can look over what happened that year?

1:00:00

-

Yeah, when did things happen.

1:00:02

-

Quick way.

1:00:04

-

Well, that's helpful.

1:00:05

-

That's very helpful.

1:00:06

-

Some years I haven't put anything.

1:00:08

-

So much better than like reading somebody's journal.

1:00:10

You'd have 15 long journals and 5,000 pages

1:00:11

of emotions all mixed in to get fact out of it.

1:00:15

This is very more efficient.

1:00:19

Because you remember the emotions attached.

1:00:23

-

Well, you have to kind of get into it to recall them,

1:00:26

but maybe you can be thinking.

1:00:29

Put the time table off, and figure that's going

1:00:32

to be provided for you easily,

1:00:35

and think about some of the topics you'd like to remember

1:00:38

and talk about that would make good stories,

1:00:42

and it would be interesting just to think about.

1:00:45

-

Mau and Sasha was the people I was trying to think of

1:00:50

that lived in--

1:00:52

-

Who?

-

Mau and Sasha, you ever heard of them?

1:00:54

-

Yeah.

1:00:57

-

They lived in Arkansas.

1:00:58

They were midwives.

1:00:59

They were midwives in Arkansas,

1:01:00

and they weren't far from that land

1:01:01

that Malcolm bought up in Arkansas.

1:01:03

-

What land did he buy?

1:01:06

Did he really put it in some women's names?

1:01:08

-

Yeah, I'm trying to think of

1:01:11

whose name it finally went in.

1:01:12

-

Like are women living on it today?

1:01:15

-

It wasn't Debbie Coke.

1:01:16

Who was it? Whose name...

1:01:18

I didn't find out till later whose name he finally put in.

1:01:20

I think she sold it.

1:01:24

-

So was it up there near Dianne Rivers and those folks?

1:01:27

-

It was more in the middle of the state.

1:01:30

-

Oh, really?

1:01:32

-

Up high.

1:01:33

-

Like mountain home and somewhere there.

1:01:35

-

Yeah, let's see if it says where Mau and Sasha live.

1:01:36

They used to be in Maize.

1:01:41

-

And how do you spell them and where is--

1:01:44

-

M-A-U S-H-A, Sasha.

1:01:44

-

They weren't... those people weren't...

1:01:50

-

Maybe, I'm not...

1:01:55

Where did I see their names?

1:01:58

-

They're all women of color, right?

1:02:00

-

Mm-hm.

1:02:02

-

Oh, no, these are white women.

1:02:03

-

Oh, okay.

1:02:04

-

What were the dates?

1:02:06

Oh, it's in there.

1:02:08

Or are you trying to think of it?

1:02:10

-

I've gone too far.

1:02:12

Where did I see them?

1:02:13

I've got animal deaths in here too.

1:02:16

-

What time is it?

1:02:20

-

It's three o'clock.

1:02:21

-

Check the readings.

1:02:22

-

Oh, yeah. Time to go.

1:02:24

Sandy, Ayla... Sandy. Marsha.

1:02:28

Sandy and Marsha came.

1:02:33

-

Did they?

1:02:35

-

Oh, no, no, no. That's Witsin.

1:02:36

But they did come through there once.

1:02:37

I've got Witsin July 4th trip to North Carolina

1:02:39

with Gail's sister and nephew and niece,

1:02:42

because Gail's sister had a wreck,

1:02:47

so that's in here when she came to live with us

1:02:49

and the kids came later.

1:02:51

Let's see, nobody else was living with us then.

1:02:55

I don't think...

1:02:58

It was just us.

1:02:59

-

Okay, well let me work on this (laughs).

1:03:09

-

Bless you, girl.

1:03:14

-

And I'm still... Mao and Sasha, we're thinking...

1:03:16

Where did they fit?

1:03:18

Are you remembering them?

1:03:20

-

What now?

1:03:21

-

Where did Mao and Sasha fit?

1:03:23

Those are the ones you were trying to remember for...

1:03:24

-

They didn't... we visited them when we went

1:03:27

to look at the land in Arkansas, I think.

1:03:31

-

Oh, early on?

1:03:34

-

Yeah, I don't think they ever came to our place.

1:03:35

We just knew about them. We visited.

1:03:38

-

I got it, okay.

1:03:41

-

We may have talked to them on the phone.

1:03:42

(gurgling drowns out speaker)

1:03:46

-

No, there's not.

1:03:50

What do we have to eat?

1:03:52

-

You have kinda of lunch... a lot of stuff for breakfast.

1:03:53

Breakfast was at 12 or so.

1:03:58

You might be ready to eat again.

1:04:02

I have a little bit of cereal.

1:04:04

Oh, Lordy.

1:04:08

-

I'm sitting here eating too much candy, myself.

1:04:09

-

Is there a garbage around here somewhere?

1:04:13

-

It is so hard to find a garbage can.

1:04:15

There's one by the registration desk,

1:04:17

and the rest of them seem to be over by the kitchen.

1:04:19

-

I guess this is your cup, Gail.

1:04:29

-

I suspect it is.

1:04:32

I was wondering why this cardboard was here

1:04:37

and then I realized--

1:04:40

-

Oh, yes.

Atkins, Gail and Demeter, Gwen - interviewed by Rose Norman

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture

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