Sims, Mary Lee - interviewed by Barbara Ester / Southern Lesbian-Feminist Activist Herstory Project / Duke Digital Repository

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Okay, were gonna record now, and I think,

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I'm recording now.

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I enter, am I recording now?

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I believe I am.

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What I'm gonna do now is get the telephone set up

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and we're gonna talk to Mary Simms.

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Today is April 8th, 2013.

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Track two will begin in a moment.

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As soon as I set the phone up.

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Pushing the button.

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Okay, I'm on the other phone now

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so I'll go in the other room where I can

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relax and I have to look at a couple of the notes.

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You didn't find your paperwork anywhere

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about that purpose, huh?

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No, you know what it is, I think I have to go up

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in the attic--

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For heaven sakes.

Yeah, well that's travel too, just get up in the attic.

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You're like me.

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And I don't know which box,

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because I got some (mumbles) here too.

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Oh, you're collecting, well, you know what,

0:59

we'll just do the best we can.

1:02

We know there was a purpose of some kind

1:04

and you know why I can bring up the recollection

1:06

of meeting y'all there, and it was the planning time

1:10

for the the Dyke Pride week, but you were telling me

1:13

about how even the task force even began,

1:17

and how you were involved,

1:21

and if you were involved in NOW for a while.

1:23

Your involvement...

1:26

Where would you start in your story

1:29

as far as, let's see...

1:31

You came out. I know that I had that written down.

1:33

Yeah, you came to Miami 1962.

1:41

I was looking at some of my notes

1:43

from when we talked about that,

1:45

and grew up in Pennsylvania.

1:46

So you came to Miami to live.

1:48

Then how do you find lesbian communities there?

1:52

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Well, I...

1:56

Actually, I found a gay community first.

2:01

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Okay.

2:06

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And it was through work I found this.

2:09

I worked at a beauty shop on the beach years ago,

2:12

and I had made friends with a gay boy.

2:16

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What did you do at a beauty shop?

2:20

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I was a maid and shampoo girl.

2:23

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Oh, really?

2:27

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Oh, yeah, yeah.

2:28

I've done many observations, but I met this woman,

2:31

and she introduced me to Helen Delabuh.

2:37

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Helen was the first lesbian you met there, then?

2:41

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Actually, I met her lover who was a white woman.

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She came to the beauty shop.

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Her name was Judy Gray.

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Huh. Yeah.

2:53

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This was while I was still with my husband.

2:56

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You were still married then, right?

3:02

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Yeah, yeah.

3:03

And so when I met Helen, I only got one child,

3:06

which was Anthony.

3:10

He was two years old.

3:12

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Oh.

3:14

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Yeah, (mumbles).

3:15

And then for years I hung out with...

3:18

And Helen introduced me to the woman who was...

3:23

Well, I was having feelings for her lover,

3:26

but then I found out she was involved with Helen,

3:33

so I didn't (laughs), you know?

3:36

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Oh, yeah.

3:39

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And I was still with my husband,

3:40

so I had been making sure to that.

3:42

Then Helen introduced me to a woman named Betty Harris.

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She was a singer.

3:50

All the singers I started hanging out, you know,

3:50

going to clubs with.

3:52

This is...

3:54

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What year was this, Mary?

3:56

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This was back in 60?

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Just roughly.

4:03

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I had Anthony in about 66.

4:07

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Wow, yeah.

4:09

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And it wasn't until 69 that I...

4:12

Had an affair with this woman.

4:16

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So you came out the same year,

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did you know that?

4:21

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No, I didn't know that.

4:23

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Yeah, I was in Chicago met my first

4:24

lesbian there in 69, too.

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My first lover was in entertainment.

4:33

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So she was an entertainer.

4:35

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Yeah, her name was Betty Harris.

4:37

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Wow. So how do you get to be this political,

4:40

radical lesbian, and connect with the NOW

4:45

and the lesbian task force and all that?

4:50

How did that happen for you?

4:52

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Well, me and Betty were very temporary.

4:55

I moved in with her,

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and then Helen introduced me

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to this woman named Jacquelin Tooks,

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and she was who introduced me to Louise and Marianne.

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I met Louise and Marianne when they came from Texas

5:15

back in the 19... 69 or 70,

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and I lived with Jackie,

5:27

who I didn't think (mumbles) till 74

5:29

when me and Jackie broke up and I started

5:32

hanging out with Louise.

5:37

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So was there influence in that area?

5:41

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Yeah, politics, yeah.

5:44

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Yeah, feminist politics, or?

5:46

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Yes, because Louise and Marianne were non-religious.

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They were working at FIU,

5:54

or they were social workers or something,

5:57

and they were teaching at FIU,

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and they were members of NOW,

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and they were living in 74, I think it was 74,

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with nine women, and they were talking

6:15

about they were members in Now,

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and they wanted to start a task force

6:19

called Lesbian Task Force,

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and that's how I went to doing it then.

6:28

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So had you had any comment of connecting

6:34

with any kind of other... or lesbians?

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And then how about any feminist stuff?

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Did anything like that come through for you

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through any means whatsoever,

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or was it all through Louise and Marianne?

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It was all through Louise and Marianne,

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because I... yeah.

6:52

You know, they opened up a whole lot of evidence for me,

6:56

because--

7:03

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So what clicks works for you

and the lesbian, feminist politics?

7:07

What clicked most for you?

7:10

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For me it was the excitement about the music,

7:14

the books, you know?

7:17

I had never...

7:19

You know, it just opened up

7:20

that lesbian culture for me.

7:22

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So how would you define the lesbian culture?

7:26

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Well, women-only music, women-only...

7:30

Sort of like we started learning about Olivia

7:36

and women's music--

7:42

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How'd you start learning

about that?

7:48

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I'm not really sure, because it came

7:53

as Lesbian Task Force information.

7:56

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Through the Task Force, yeah.

7:59

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Yeah, yeah.

8:02

We had different things going.

8:03

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Huh.

8:10

So what would you say was your most prominent,

8:13

or most important action in terms

8:20

of being a political activist, so to speak?

8:22

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I think (mumbles) all of that to the Lesbian Task Force,

8:29

because they sort of pushed everyone

8:34

into their best potential.

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They were coach-ier than any...

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They give women opportunities to lead any organization,

8:47

and yeah--

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What kind of leading

position did you take on?

8:54

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I became the (mumbles) chair person

8:57

for the Lesbian Task Force in Louisiana.

9:02

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Oh, wow. Chair person, so what does that mean you did now?

9:05

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Facilitated meetings.

9:09

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Facilitated meetings, so you had never done

9:11

anything like that before?

9:14

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No.

9:15

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Oh.

9:16

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Not really.

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And we had a lot of projects.

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If a woman thought of a project, she was put in charge of it

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and there were a lot of women who became politically active

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with the Lesbian Task Force.

9:37

It was amazing.

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Yeah, it was amazing.

9:40

It was amazing when I got there,

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and you were already doing any work...

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Well, how much before that time period

9:46

where the Dyke Pride week came in

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had you done anything of that nature before?

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That major Dyke Pride week?

9:57

You remember what I'm talking about,

9:58

the Dyke Pride week, right?

10:00

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Oh, yeah. We did dances.

10:01

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So you had done dances already?

10:03

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Yeah, we had done dances for fundraisers,

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and one of the things that the Task Force voted on

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was that the chapter would get 10% of anything

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that we made a profit on,

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and I guess that was some of our downfall,

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because we were giving the chapter a lot of money.

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Because we'd give one dance, and made 700 dollars on it.

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Oh, and what was...

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So the purpose, if you were to even reflect on any sense

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of what the purpose of the task force was

10:49

and then do it--

10:52

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It was feel...

And I'm, you know, I'm not stating the...

10:59

I remember part of it, but I'm not stating.

11:04

It was to promote positive lesbian...

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It was about culture and teaching and all that.

11:15

That was our purpose,

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but it was short and it was simple.

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But that's it.

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And we were very proud of it,

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because we started every meeting with stating our purpose.

11:27

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Wow, yeah.

11:30

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Yeah, and it was only a couple sentences long.

11:32

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So tell me about the Dyke Pride week,

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because that seemed to be a pretty prominent thing.

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Or was there some other prominent thing,

11:43

because of the dances?

11:44

It was a social group.

11:47

You created social...

11:48

Did you do political actions, or were you

11:50

more of a social networking?

11:51

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We did workshops on positive lesbian...

11:54

I remember doing a workshop in Jensen Beach.

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Organizations would call us and we would do a workshop

12:06

trying to promote a positive image of lesbian women.

12:13

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Okay, wow. Yeah.

12:19

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I think we did a couple workshops at university.

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You know, just on lesbianism.

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One of the workshops that really sticks out for me

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was we did a workshop on what is a lesbian,

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and we did a whole number on different stages of lesbianism,

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but at the end the whole theory was a lesbian

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was any woman who said she was.

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You know, it had nothing to do with your sexuality,

12:58

it's just if a woman identifies as a lesbian.

13:03

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Yeah, yeah. Wow.

13:06

Let's see, you had that workshop.

13:12

This was all in the early... well, mid-70s, you said, right?

13:15

Because 74 or so?

13:20

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74, 75.

13:23

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So you--

13:24

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I don't remember

what year you came.

13:27

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Well, we came somewhere in 76, I believe it was.

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Okay.

13:32

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And that's what I remember coming,

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and first it was Martha and Lucy that kind of

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introduced Joan and I to the idea of we could

13:39

go to the YWCA and there'd be a whole

13:40

group of lesbians there, and... I mean,

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I remember you offering to help Joan with her van,

13:45

because there was a mechanical problem with the brakes

13:48

that we had--

13:52

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We did the teaching.

We had women with different skills

13:55

that would teach us how to do things.

13:57

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Oh, yes, yes.

14:00

Was that all along as you were a Task Force?

14:02

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Yes, and you realize that the Task Force

14:07

started in Marianne and Louise's house on 43rd?

14:11

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No, I didn't realize that.

14:16

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It got so big that we had to move it to the YMCA,

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because there were so many women there.

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We had almost 200 women in the Task Force at one point.

14:28

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Wow, wow.

14:32

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Yeah, we had to move it.

14:33

I mean, it got so big that we couldn't meet at the house.

14:35

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I recall you going to Sebastian's,

14:39

and you actually would go in the bar,

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and I think you weren't the only one,

14:44

but I recall you, specifically, that you'd

14:46

kind of go up to the women and start talking

14:49

and telling them about the Task Force.

14:51

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Yeah, we had a newspaper that we'd spread it into bars.

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Make women aware of the political side of the...

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We even talked the bar into putting up a billboard.

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It was in the women's rooms so that we could put

15:08

announcements on it for our dances and any meetings

15:10

that we were having,

15:15

and the rumor about...

15:16

They said I must be liaison to the bar.

15:18

There was so--

15:22

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Ah, that's what I remember.

Yeah.

15:24

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There were several women who were liaison to the bar.

15:26

(mumbles) to either recruit women.

15:29

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What was the political motivation in that?

15:34

What was the reason for doing that?

15:38

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It was to make women aware of the lesbian culture

15:40

outside the bars, because it wasn't a safe meeting place

15:44

outside the bars.

15:50

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Oh, yeah.

15:51

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It was what the lesbians had.

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We had picnics, we had ballgames, we had...

15:56

We were promoting a sociable agenda outside the bars

15:59

with the Lesbian Task Force.

16:04

We had women who were dealing with the legislative.

16:07

Several of us went to the members on the board of NOW.

16:18

There was five lesbians on the board of NOW,

16:24

and there were five.

16:27

Several of us went to the national convention.

16:33

So we were very... trying to be a part of the NOW structure

16:37

at the time, and when we went to Philadelphia

16:43

it was (mumbles) that was the year

16:46

of the lesbian in Philadelphia.

16:49

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Wow.

16:51

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Yeah, if we had ran alone with that...

16:52

You know, what was really wonderful was

16:58

that we got to learn about the culture that was

17:03

happening all over the country, because, you know,

17:07

I had never learned.

17:10

I had learned about (mumbles) and rich,

17:12

and all the women who were writing--

17:16

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Poets and so on.

17:18

Writers?

17:19

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Poetry and the political side of the lesbian culture

17:20

that we have in the 70s.

17:26

It was awesome.

17:29

It was just a growing time for women.

17:31

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Yeah, and that's real similar for what Mindy said

17:33

about the cultural time, yeah.

17:35

In her story, where...

17:38

And she even thinks that what she brought

17:41

was some of the music too,

17:44

because I know that she was saying...

17:46

But you knew about Olivia records

17:49

and some of the other records

17:51

that might have been out there.

17:53

Linda Tillery, Sweet Honey were out there already.

17:55

Let's see, I'm trying to think of who else was out there,

18:01

but you knew of some of the music, you were saying, right?

18:05

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Yeah, and the Moon Circle with Tay Garner.

18:07

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Oh, Moon Circles and Tay Garner, too, wow.

18:11

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Yeah, that was like our...

18:13

I had a (mumbles) at the time,

18:16

and I think when I closed my door and left the house

18:22

and heard those words...

18:25

When I came back form Circle in the spring

18:27

it was like... it's fitted every mood.

18:29

So you know, we learned about the women's culture

18:35

that was happening, and there was a lot of it,

18:39

because people were exploring

18:41

and just finding their woman-ness, yeah.

18:44

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And so what about Miami's lesbian culture, then,

18:51

in terms of were there writers or musicians

18:54

that you could say that were from Miami that...

18:58

Were participating and being part of this culture?

19:02

Or did you feel that you were as a lesbian there,

19:05

and that the Task Force?

19:09

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Yeah, at the Task Force, I mean, yeah.

19:10

Women were doing their...

19:13

We had poetry night, and we had art night.

19:15

Women would get together and share their skills.

19:20

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Oh, really? Wow.

19:24

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Yeah.

19:25

And then we had Dyke Night, do you remember?

19:27

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Yes, I remember the Dyke Night.

19:29

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Yeah, and it was a lot of stuff.

19:31

We had the women who were coming,

19:35

so like we had... Ann Reed was down here,

19:40

and she was a mechanic.

19:43

(laughs)

19:46

We had, you know, tons of women

19:49

that gave of themselves,

19:54

because one of the philosophies for the Lesbian Task Force

20:00

was women's energy was more powerful than money,

20:03

so a lot of times women, we didn't press so much

20:06

about the money, but women gave of their time,

20:13

their energy, and their money.

20:16

So it became a really positive thing.

20:19

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Of sharing, oh.

20:23

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Of sharing.

20:25

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Wow, yes.

20:26

So do you remember the Dyke Pride week?

20:27

So were there Gay Pride marches,

20:32

or anything like that in Miami that you're aware of?

20:37

Or was it the Dyke Pride week?

20:40

And how did that come about?

20:43

Well, because, you know, there was Gay Pride,

20:46

but it was mostly men, and they did their thing,

20:51

and there was nothing geared towards women,

21:01

and that's what we wanted to do was our energy was women.

21:03

You know, you could say gay, and you didn't know

21:08

if that was a man or women, but if you said lesbian pride

21:11

you knew it was all about women.

21:15

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Yeah, wow, yeah.

21:17

And so Dyke Pride Week, do you remember organizing that?

21:19

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Yes, I do.

21:23

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Yeah, what was your part of it?

21:24

Do you remember?

21:26

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Well, actually, yeah.

21:28

I went to the City Hall, and there was...

21:31

I went down to City Hall to get the River Walk

21:35

downtown to do a bazaar,

21:42

and they had... It was like a weekend bazaar.

21:46

We had food, we had poetry readings, we had a dance.

21:52

It was a big... it was a whole week.

21:58

We made a challenge of events that women could go to.

22:03

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And so did you figure that was a very successful...

22:10

Was it very successful?

22:12

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I thought it was a success.

22:14

We get to have the Dyke on the River.

22:16

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Oh, wow.

22:18

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The city permitted us to have a bazaar on the river.

22:19

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I got it. That's awesome, yeah.

22:22

I didn't realize that.

22:24

I remember the way artwork got.

22:26

Were you doing any artwork of your own at the time

22:28

that you displayed out there?

22:30

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No.

22:33

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No, but you were an artist already?

22:34

Or did that come later, or what?

22:37

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I was an artist in high school,

22:40

because I won partial scholarships

22:43

in New York and Pittsburgh,

22:47

but I never pursued it.

22:50

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Because you were talking about that big mural

22:51

that you had created for one of the dances.

22:55

Remember, Gemini dance or something?

22:58

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Oh, yes, yes.

23:00

We did that.

23:02

Well, with the dances we always had a theme,

23:03

and we tried to decorate and create art for that,

23:06

because we'd have three or four hundred women

23:12

at our dances,

23:15

because we would hit the bar scene,

23:16

and the NOW members,

23:21

and you know it wasn't just here in Florida,

23:26

because we would travel over every two months

23:28

as a part of the NOW attends...

23:33

It's a state organization.

23:39

We were a part of the state organization,

23:40

so we attend other things,

23:43

to those meetings every two months.

23:47

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And you were part of doing that?

23:49

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Yeah, and Mandy and quite a few women.

23:50

English, Hunter, you know, women wanted to do it.

23:54

We would go out of town,

23:59

and we would connect with other lesbians all over the state.

24:01

Basically, if we went out of town,

24:07

we would hook up with a woman like in (mumbles)

24:09

or somewhere, and they were there for the weekend.

24:14

Or there was a vibe (mumbles) as we traveled.

24:17

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Yeah, nice. Yeah.

24:22

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And there's a lot of women who were down there

24:25

and feminist, I guess, in dealing

24:30

with the lesbian agenda very positive,

24:34

a lot of women started coming out.

24:37

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Yeah, I remember that too.

24:40

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Yeah, it was awesome.

24:42

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So feminist theory, did you come across reading

24:47

any books or any material on that?

24:51

Or was it all through your experience with other lesbians?

24:53

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Oh, no. We bought all the books in.

24:58

We had Miss Magazine, you know, it was very popular?

25:03

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Yeah.

25:07

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And we had people with...

25:08

We started subscribing to other periodicals

25:10

all over the country,

25:14

and we started our own newsletter.

25:17

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Own newsletter, that's right.

25:20

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Lesbianna Speaks, and we would send those

25:22

to different chapters, because as we started...

25:25

It was the lesbians that started a Lesbian Task Force

25:30

in Ohio (mumbles) coordinate all this mail that came in.

25:32

We got tons of mail all over the country,

25:47

and actually because we're in south Florida,

25:51

we get a lot of the trends of people moving in

25:55

out in different countries,

25:59

so we would have correspondence.

26:02

We would open that mail and read it in our meetings

26:04

from all over the world.

26:07

I think Louise and everything for contacting women

26:09

from England and different countries.

26:14

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Wow.

26:18

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It was awesome.

26:19

It was just a connection,

26:23

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Which was again promoting that idea

26:29

of a more positive image of what a lesbian was.

26:31

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Right, right.

26:34

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In terms of the culture and the general culture.

26:36

Were you a part of that experience with the phone...

26:40

Oh, what was it called?

26:45

When Anita Ryan came out and did all her stuff,

26:47

and was trying to change something in the law,

26:51

were you involved in all that phone calling of Democrats?

26:55

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Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

27:00

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What were you calling that? A phone, what?

27:01

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A Phone Bank.

27:04

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Bank, yeah, yeah.

27:06

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The Phone Bank, our straight and gay...

27:07

You know, Anita Ryan was a (mumbles)

27:13

just organized as you already missed her.

27:19

The founding members were straight and gay started working

27:23

to fight against Anita Ryan.

27:28

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Yeah, but what she was proposing passed at the time.

27:33

What was your feeling about all that?

27:40

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Well, you know, I felt like it disrupted

27:43

the gay and lesbian community together.

27:47

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Okay.

27:50

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You know (mumbles).

27:53

It united us behind a cause.

27:57

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Sure.

28:00

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Everybody needs a cause, and this was ours.

28:02

-

Well, Mindy said she used to receive awesome...

28:04

I mean, awful, awful bumper stickers

28:07

that save the children, or something like that.

28:11

-

Yeah, that's what it was all about.

28:14

You know, the scare tactic was that, you know,

28:17

we were corrupting our children

28:21

with the gay and lesbian information down there.

28:24

-

Yeah.

28:27

-

But, you know, she lost her job,

28:28

because we were fighting in the worst (laughs).

28:31

We found it... Our money had a positive statement.

28:37

We could boycott.

28:45

Our money was strong.

28:47

Our money was green.

28:48

Our money was political.

28:50

-

I like that.

28:53

-

Yeah, and we had a lot of stamps,

28:54

and we started stamping all our money,

29:00

because we said it was a political statement.

29:03

-

What do you mean you're stamping all your money?

29:05

-

Everybody was bringing money in,

29:07

and we would stamp it lesbian money.

29:09

-

You would (laughs)?

29:11

-

Yeah, well (mumbles)

29:13

-

Oh, wow.

29:14

-

So it became a political statement that we spent money,

29:17

and it was amazing, because we would hand this money

29:21

to people, and some of them would notice,

29:28

and some of them didn't,

29:30

but it was a statement.

29:32

They didn't realize how much money lesbians spent,

29:34

we'd spend because grocery stores.

29:40

We spend money,

29:43

because some of us have children.

29:44

We do the same things as normal people.

29:46

We spend a lot of money.

29:51

-

Yeah, yeah really.

29:52

So do you remember this experience where...

29:54

Who went to jail?

29:57

You or Judy?

30:00

Remember, you got arrested or something,

30:01

because you were with a white woman,

30:03

or did Judy get arrested?

30:04

-

I was with Nancy.

30:07

She was down here for the little...

30:10

She was a white woman, and I was dating.

30:14

She was here for the missile classes.

30:18

She was in the army.

30:21

-

Well, were some harassment above that?

30:23

Because it was around the same time

30:25

Joan and I got arrested and Louise got arrested.

30:27

-

Yeah, well they were doing...

30:30

It wasn't so much a lesbian thing.

30:33

It was a black and white thing.

30:35

-

For you?

30:37

-

Yeah.

30:38

-

What exactly happened, Mary?

30:40

-

The cop came up behind me on 69th street,

30:44

and said I went too slow through a green light,

30:48

and I was eating chicken.

30:50

I said I don't eat chicken.

30:52

I'm a vegetarian.

30:53

-

All right, then what happened?

30:56

-

Well, I had a bench warrant for a ticket or something,

30:58

so he took me down to jail,

31:04

but that was the excuse that I went

31:07

through that light too slow or something.

31:11

Something ridiculous.

31:16

-

Something ridiculous, yeah.

31:18

Just like Louise was... she was carrying

31:19

a pocket knife or something, wasn't she?

31:22

-

Yeah, yeah.

31:24

Well they were...

31:25

I don't know if they were arresting gays,

31:28

or who looked like gays,

31:32

or if they were harassing the black and white thing.

31:33

-

Yeah, well did you find a lot of that

31:40

within lesbian culture?

31:43

This, any kind of racism stuff?

31:45

Or wasn't there something that happened

31:47

up at Lou's with Louise at one time?

31:49

Do you remember anything about that?

31:52

And then a lot of us stopped going to Lou's,

31:54

that bar up north?

31:56

-

Lou was... yeah, she had, I think

31:58

kissed a black woman.

32:03

-

She did.

32:04

I mean, from your perspective, how do you know that?

32:05

What was it?

32:08

Did she say something?

32:09

Did she do something?

32:10

What (mumbles) there?

32:11

-

I think she refused to give up.

32:13

You know, she refused to serve somebody.

32:15

-

No way. Really?

32:18

-

Yeah.

32:19

-

That late?

32:20

-

Yeah, it was late.

32:21

-

Geez. Huh.

32:23

-

It was late.

32:27

-

I remember something about that,

32:29

but I just remember Joan and I were up there

32:31

a couple of times, and then we heard about something

32:34

happening with Louise, and we said,

32:36

"Well, we're never going there again."

32:38

-

Yeah, so I mean the culture...

32:40

You know, the lesbian culture was just (mumbles)

32:47

as the southern culture down here.

32:51

I mean, there was prejudice against color.

32:52

You know, we had enough on that as women.

32:57

-

Yeah, yeah.

33:01

-

It's like... our biggest scheme

33:03

was meat, men, and money... divide us.

33:06

-

Yeah.

33:09

-

Because we were... a lot of women were becoming

33:13

vegetarians and becoming very political

33:16

about the environment, so a lot of us

33:24

were changing our eating habits.

33:28

-

Did you do that then,

33:32

or did you become a vegetarian in another way?

33:33

-

Oh, I became a vegetarian

33:36

through the Lesbian Task Force.

33:39

I met this woman named Susan who was from England,

33:41

because I was a heavy meat-eater.

33:45

She said, "You know, Mary. I'm not trying to change you,

33:49

but think about it. It takes 24 hours for that meat

33:57

to digest in your system, and your body could

34:00

be doing everything by killing you."

34:04

-

Really? That's how she mentioned it?

34:07

So it was through the woman, Susan, huh?

34:10

-

Yeah, she was from England.

34:13

-

And you felt it was a political thing, too?

34:16

-

Yeah, it was a political statement,

34:20

but it didn't come easy.

34:22

It was hard giving up meat.

34:28

-

Oh, yeah. Me too.

34:30

I eat fish again now, myself.

34:32

I have gone back to eating fish.

34:34

-

Yeah, I mean...

34:37

It's, yeah.

34:39

One minute you like to say that we go around in circles,

34:41

we go up higher.

34:45

(Laughs)

34:47

We come back where we started.

34:48

I do eat the fish, and I do chicken and fish.

34:51

I just can't listen to red meat.

34:57

-

Yeah, me too.

35:00

-

But the biggest shock was seeing Marianne do fish.

35:01

-

That was a big shocker.

35:07

But when I met them they had a big freezer full of meat too

35:08

when I met them.

35:12

When they live on 43rd street?

35:14

-

Yes.

35:16

-

They had a big great dane dog, if I remember correctly.

35:17

-

Yes.

35:19

-

And then they had also a freezer full of meat.

35:21

Now that's a kind of strange thing that I remember,

35:22

but I remember that.

35:25

But a house full of lesbians making music.

35:26

-

Yes.

35:30

Yeah, we had Dyke night.

35:31

We had music night.

35:33

We had art night.

35:34

We had, I think that we even had

35:36

how to repair your car.

35:41

-

Bicycle too, wasn't it?

35:43

-

Yeah, everybody was sharing their skills,

35:45

which was empowering.

35:49

We empowered women.

35:51

That's what the Task Force...

35:53

It empowered you to be the best you could.

35:56

It took you from...

36:00

You know, because I was as shy...

36:01

I remember being in the meeting when the Task Force started

36:04

and not saying much.

36:12

Just being pulled out by the Task Force

36:15

and by their leadership to become a leader and involved.

36:18

I mean, every women was involved.

36:24

-

That's a key word, yeah.

36:26

-

Yeah, that's what we tried to do.

36:28

We would make every woman feel important

36:30

and be involved,

36:32

because we all had talents,

36:36

and we were all leaders.

36:39

That's what was special about the Task Force.

36:41

One of the things that we kept saying and repeating

36:44

was that every woman was capable of being a leader.

36:48

We really didn't have a leader, you know.

36:54

If you chose you want to lead the Task Force,

36:56

and that's what the beauty of it was.

37:01

We had two chair people, a chair and a co-chair,

37:04

but we had 50 leaders, you know what I mean?

37:10

-

Yeah, wow, yeah.

37:14

What an awesome feeling to know that there

37:16

was not just that hierarchy in the same way, huh.

37:23

-

Right.

37:28

-

Now, there was a split in the task force,

37:29

you recall that, right?

37:32

-

Yeah, it was over men.

37:34

-

Really, yeah? How so?

37:36

What was that about?

37:37

-

It was a separatist... It was part...

37:39

You know, meat, men, and money.

37:46

It was partly men and it was partly money,

37:47

The Task Force now decided that every woman

37:53

in the Task Force should be a member of NOW,

37:58

and so all the money that we were handing over

38:02

at the general meeting, you know,

38:05

we handled a couple hundred dollars from our fundraisers.

38:07

At one point we had more members in the Task Force

38:13

than we had on the (mumbles).

38:17

We had more money in our trainers than the Task Force had.

38:20

It got really sticky about the money,

38:25

and they said, "Well, we want every woman

38:28

"that belongs to the Task Force to be a member of NOW."

38:31

And we said, "No, we've got five of us on the board."

38:35

There was five lesbians on the board,

38:41

and any woman who wants to become a member of NOW,

38:44

we encourage them to do that,

38:47

but we don't make it an option,

38:49

because we're dealing with lesbian issues,

38:52

but we are giving back to the chapter.

38:55

They got greedy and started (mumbles).

38:59

And we said, "Well, no. We're not going for it.

39:04

"We'll break up."

39:06

And it was that and it was the separatist movement,

39:08

because the separatist movement got really big here.

39:10

A couple women came here from California

39:15

and different places, and started...

39:17

Because we had (mumbles) the groups,

39:20

and we started talking about the separatist movement.

39:24

A lot of women...

39:29

You know, I don't want to shut out men for my life,

39:30

and that's your...

39:35

So there was a big party on the beach,

39:38

and ran into some men,

39:42

and we had a big blow up,

39:44

because we were on the beach with no tops on,

39:45

and the men had to wrap up.

39:50

The women just came together (mumbles).

39:55

When I got back to the Task Force at the meeting,

40:01

you know, we put it on everything.

40:03

Some of the women decided they decided they didn't

40:09

want to be friends with us.

40:13

So it was that and the money that broke us, yes.

40:17

-

So it had a little bit to do with those two, huh?

40:20

I guess they consider concepts or something,

40:27

because they would... I mean, men are one thing,

40:28

and the Lesbian Task Force... did they ever do anything

40:32

other than the Anita Ryan time period,

40:36

was there any other connection with gay guys?

40:40

Or was there any...

40:44

-

We did workshops that was open to the public

40:46

on lesbianism, so we had to deal with men.

40:49

-

Huh.

40:53

-

Asking stupid questions,

40:54

but we kept it very positive,

40:55

and when they ask if we hate men, we said no.

40:59

We'd just rather put our energy toward...

41:03

You know, we try to keep everything on a positive note.

41:07

We'd just rather be with women.

41:09

You know, some of us had children.

41:12

There was a point in time where...

41:16

I was a mother of two boys.

41:18

I really couldn't be a separatist,

41:21

but I could respect the state and not bring

41:24

my sons to anything that was women only.

41:28

-

Well, also, Mary, didn't you realize that there

41:31

were times when there was that need to be

41:32

with only lesbians or with women,

41:35

and then there was set time when you

41:38

didn't have that need.

41:40

Wasn't there some understanding,

41:41

or a political reason,

41:43

or a social reason for--

41:46

-

Yeah, sure.

-

You to make that decision, and sometimes

41:50

that might have been very hard.

41:52

-

Yeah, and you know, it wasn't that...

41:54

I wasn't a separatist.

41:57

It was the Lesbian Task Force that wanted

41:59

to be open to a women's space.

42:02

When I traveled with NOW, I took my boys to the NOW meetings

42:04

because I thought feminism needed to be instilled

42:11

in every man.

42:15

It's just that there was a time and a place.

42:17

-

A time and a...

42:21

Yeah, so that did make since.

42:21

And was it hard for you at different times

42:23

to make that decision?

42:25

-

No, no,

42:27

because if I was doing lesbian things,

42:28

the boys went with their father.

42:31

And I was more lesbian things,

42:34

but I also knew that they could be accepted at NOW meetings.

42:37

I remember being the only male and us going to Georgia

42:43

for the national conference at NOW

42:49

to do the part where we vote Patricia Island into...

42:55

She was running for president of national.

43:02

-

So you have Anthony, and what's your other son's name?

43:06

-

Patrick.

43:09

-

Patrick, and how many years difference were they?

43:10

-

About two years.

43:13

-

So what do you think...

43:15

Do you think they got something out of being around all that

43:19

during their growing up time?

43:21

-

Well, you know, my son was maybe 12 or 13,

43:23

and you can hear him.

43:28

(mumbles) daughter went on the bus

43:30

to Georgia to this conference.

43:32

He was the only male on there,

43:36

and some women came up to me who were in the Task Force,

43:38

and they said, "Was that your son on the bus,

43:40

"who he was able to talk about Wicca and"--

43:43

-

Oh, really?

43:46

-

And the women's movement...I said yeah.

43:47

(laughs)

43:50

-

He's grown up and, you know, him now...

43:52

And also when we were in the planetary sessions

43:55

he would sit in there and take notes,

43:59

and he'd come out and tell us how to vote.

44:01

We were talking with the women, you know.

44:04

So it was a good time...

44:09

NOW was a good time for my boys,

44:12

but they weren't involved with the Lesbian Task Force.

44:16

-

Interesting.

44:20

Now that they're grown, do you find that some

44:22

of what they learned, they passed down to their

44:25

next generation, their children?

44:28

-

I think they are very tolerant of women.

44:30

-

Okay, I mean, different kind of thing would happen

44:34

I imagine, for them.

44:36

-

Yes, they're very respectful of women.

44:38

And, you know, I guess they have a different than most.

44:42

Because they were raised by a crazy lesbian (laughs).

44:50

-

Yeah, but you had that thought.

44:54

I mean, I knew open lesbians who had children,

44:55

and they had the boy children,

44:57

and they had to make decisions different times.

44:59

Well, where they could be,

45:01

where they could not be,

45:02

and then they had feelings like maybe they should be there.

45:04

But they also had respect for that women-only space, time.

45:06

But they also thought that they could raise their sons

45:11

to be a lot more cautious and more loving of women,

45:14

because in this misogynist society it's a rough thing

45:17

for guys to do that.

45:22

-

Right.

45:24

They also, you know, I think they needed time

45:24

with their male counterparts,

45:27

because they do have a different outlook.

45:29

I think the best rule that, you know,

45:34

men should take care of their boys,

45:37

and boys should take care of their girls.

45:40

You also need to teach them how to interact with other women

45:43

and men, you know.

45:49

You need to teach them there is some respect.

45:51

You know, I remember my daughter.

45:54

We were working around the yard, and she had a wheelbarrow.

46:00

Her brother went to grab it.

46:02

She said, "I don't need your help. I'm a woman."

46:04

and she was like eight or nine.

46:07

(laughs)

46:09

It also teaches our women to be independent.

46:11

-

Yeah.

46:15

-

You know, don't wait around to...

46:16

It was.. having two sons and a daughter was an experience.

46:23

-

Yeah, what the age difference there?

46:28

Because you had Anthony first, right?

46:31

-

Yeah, and then two years later Pat.

46:34

-

Pat.

46:36

-

A year later, Ronda.

46:37

They're very close.

46:39

-

They're very close, like...

46:40

For my family it would've been the three of us

46:41

real close too, that same kind of reason.

46:43

Categorizing of two years, one year different. Yeah.

46:46

-

Yeah, and the same way my mother had me.

46:49

I'm the oldest, and then two years later you get my brother,

46:52

and then nine months later she had my sister.

46:55

-

Okay, all right. Yeah.

46:58

-

They were born in the same month, I mean, a year apart.

47:00

-

Isn't that something.

47:06

-

Yeah, my brother's the early part of February,

47:08

and my sister was born February 22nd the next year.

47:11

-

And see my brother was born December 10th

47:14

the year after I was born on December 30th.

47:17

-

Yeah, it's the same kind of thing.

47:21

Yeah, nine months.

47:23

-

Yeah, yeah well how they did the month, I don't know.

47:24

But yeah, yeah.

47:28

Well, now is there any other story that you would say

47:31

that would involve a certain sense of the topic

47:36

that, you know, they're dealing with on this project

47:42

is... I should actually read it to you.

47:45

I think I got it handy here in this folder.

47:48

Yep, I do.

47:51

Is to...

47:53

And what they've done, you know, they've done

47:55

some round of interviews up in the north Florida area

47:57

and Gainesville, because there was stuff

48:00

that was going on there.

48:03

I've tried to just collect a few of our stories.

48:04

I'll talk to Marianne, and I'll talk to Barbara,

48:07

and maybe I've got a little story of hers.

48:10

Let me see.

48:14

Here it is.

48:17

This is what it says: "A Her-story of Lesbians: Feminist

48:18

" Activism in the South, Particularly the Years 65 to 85.

48:22

"The role of southern, lesbian feminists in the women's

48:27

"movement needs to be documented before it's forgotten,

48:31

"and while these activists are still around, of course.

48:34

"The idea for the project began at Women Rights,"

48:37

and then that's basically all it said,

48:41

and it was Merrill Mushroom, who used to live in Miami

48:44

years ago, and her grandmother still lives on Miami Beach.

48:48

So she comes down.

48:51

It was her idea to do this, and I followed up by saying,

48:52

you know, I came to this wonderful community in Miami,

48:56

and I think it's an important thing to be documented too

49:00

as far as all that was happening there.

49:05

I think you hit on a few really important points

49:09

on how I felt and learned to feel about myself

49:12

(chatters over one another)

49:17

-

We also contacted Olivia Records,

49:20

and were showing their albums

49:25

out at the Lesbian Task Force.

49:27

-

Oh.

49:29

-

We also were selling the (mumbles),

49:30

and Mindy brought the jackets down,

49:32

and we were selling those.

49:35

-

Yeah.

49:37

-

We were living up to our purpose,

49:40

which was to educate women on our culture

49:45

and teaching, and the whole thing.

49:51

I'm going to have to look up and get our philosophy,

49:55

because it was simple, but we tried to build the culture.

49:58

I think that Louise and Marianne,

50:08

even after the Task Force ended,

50:12

kept that culture going with something special.

50:14

-

Yeah, yeah.

50:18

That came up how much after the Task Force dissolved

50:19

did that happen, do you know?

50:25

-

Maybe a year or two after.

50:29

They moved from 43rd, and they started cooking

50:31

vegetarian food, and you know it went on for 25 years.

50:35

-

Yeah, something like that.

50:42

I've got a little bit more detail on that.

50:43

And I'll probably talk to Marianne

50:46

and see if she wants to add a few more things,

50:48

because I know Something Special has been documented

50:49

pretty well out there, you know,

50:51

but I don't know if she'd like to do

50:54

sort of like what you're doing and what Mindy did.

50:55

So I don't know if there's some other specific thing

51:00

that comes in mind, a personal story or something

51:03

that just made you feel--

51:07

-

Well, you know, the Lesbian Task Force made me a leader.

51:13

They pulled out that leadership ability in me.

51:20

You know, I'm a shy person, really,

51:26

and so they brought out the person that was, you know,

51:30

they pulled it out,

51:35

and even though I remember sitting in the meeting

51:38

and Louise... if you said anything,

51:42

we'd fight about it,

51:47

because Louise would ring you up on it.

51:49

(laughs)

51:52

It was like they were...

51:54

Marianne and Louise created the Task Force

51:56

as a test on group dynamics.

52:00

-

Oh, interesting to look at it that way, yeah.

52:04

-

So that's what they did.

52:06

They started a group dynamic,

52:09

and I thought it was an experiment

52:11

for them being social workers

52:13

on how to relate to group dynamics,

52:16

because that's what they were teaching us.

52:19

They were teaching us positive group dynamics,

52:22

and they really, between the two of them,

52:26

they always kept out the negative forces

52:30

that would break a group up.

52:34

-

Really?

52:36

-

For the first two years I felt that.

52:37

I felt that it was women who could have came in

52:39

and tried to disrupt the Task Force,

52:43

but because of the positive group dynamics

52:48

that's why it lasted so long.

52:53

The Lesbian Task Force was the longest organization

52:55

I've been in, because I've been

52:59

in quite a few women's organizations

53:03

after the Task Force, and none of them had

53:06

that group dynamic that the Lesbian Task Force had.

53:10

-

So what would be an example of keeping out a negative

53:14

force out of the task force?

53:16

How does that come up?

53:17

-

Well, you know, if you came up and said,

53:18

"I don't like this," then Louise would say,

53:22

"Well, what would you like," and that's it.

53:24

You got it, you know?

53:28

It was like if you came up with a negative

53:30

you have to come up with a positive,

53:32

and then you have to take it on.

53:34

She would say, "Yeah, you could handle that. Go ahead."

53:37

(laughs)

53:42

And if a woman came in and said, "Why don't we

53:44

"do a dance?" She said, "Great, you got it."

53:46

You know, and find the women who want to help you do this.

53:50

And so it was like...

53:55

If you came up with an idea,

53:58

if there was women who were willing

54:02

to help you with that idea,

54:06

but they put you in charge of that idea.

54:07

-

Yeah, that's pretty awesome

54:12

to look at it from that perspective of group dynamics.

54:16

-

Group dynamics, and it really pushes you to grow

54:20

and expand your world and expand your experience,

54:26

the Lesbian Task Force did.

54:32

-

Yeah, you've got some awesome things

54:34

to take note of about your experience there,

54:36

and you know just know how you blossomed yourself

54:40

is probably the most extraordinary thing

54:44

inside of ourselves to know that we grew and we blossomed

54:48

through the experience.

54:51

-

I think that the Lesbian Task Force

54:53

gave us confidence to speak.

54:55

It gave us confidence to even say the word lesbian, okay?

54:57

-

Yeah, yeah.

55:00

-

Because one of the things that we talk about in group

55:02

is, you know, words are our power,

55:07

and if you make that word positive,

55:13

no one can use it against you.

55:15

If you walk down the street and somebody calls you a dyke,

55:18

you turn around and say, "No, I'm a super dyke."

55:21

(laughs)

55:26

-

Yeah, I hear you.

55:29

-

You would just use the negative to make it positive.

55:32

It was an awesome feeling to do that.

55:38

It was powerful.

55:40

The Task Force gave you the power

55:43

to be whoever you wanted to be,

55:45

and the energy to do it.

55:49

I still see that meeting with all those white men

55:53

at the City Hall looking at us and saying,

55:58

"Well, I just want to talk to your leaders,"

56:01

and 15 women stand up and said, "we are."

56:04

The frustration on this man's face...

56:09

They had (mumbles).

56:14

They said, "well, we didn't know there was that many.

56:22

"the evidence in..." you know?

56:24

We took up half the hall is actually what we did.

56:26

-

Really? Oh.

56:28

-

Yeah, and there was women on every (mumbles) bench.

56:30

-

Yeah, so the group was very diverse

56:36

as far as I saw.

56:38

I was coming from San Diego,

56:39

it seemed like that Miami's culture

56:43

was the most diverse culture I had ever seen.

56:47

-

We have black women, we have Spanish, we had Jamaican,

56:51

we had a couple black, we had white, we had, you know.

56:53

-

A few rednecks in there?

56:58

-

Yeah, we had a few rednecks in there,

56:59

but you know what?

57:03

Even at that we were very...

57:04

The Task Force was still very diverse and very loving.

57:06

-

Yeah, yes.

57:11

-

It was more like a family,

57:13

and that was because we gave everybody the freedom

57:16

to be whoever they wanted to be.

57:18

-

And so what about class differences?

57:22

Did class differences show their face at all

57:24

as far as you're concerned?

57:27

-

Of course, of course.

57:29

There was women,

57:30

but even the ones with money,

57:32

they didn't flaunt it in the task force.

57:34

Sometimes some woman's energy was better than your money.

57:41

-

Oh, yeah.

57:46

-

Because they could get it done.

57:50

We had women who would donate paper.

57:55

I mean, we printed a news...

57:58

We printed our paper, and it didn't cost us a penny.

58:00

I mean we printed 500 copies of Lesbianna Speak every month.

58:09

-

Wow, every month?

58:14

-

I don't... It might've been every two months.

58:18

-

Okay, but, you know, regularly too.

58:21

-

And we mailed it out.

58:24

Women would give us money for stamps.

58:28

We had money in our treasury.

58:30

-

Yeah, wow.

58:33

-

And it didn't cost...

58:35

We had events and we didn't have money.

58:37

We had a sliding scale.

58:42

-

Another important piece of the politics, huh.

58:45

-

Yeah, so you included the poor women

58:48

and the women who had money,

58:51

and if you didn't have money, maybe you could (mumble).

58:54

You had access to tables, or you could

59:00

get something from your job, you know?

59:04

It was that kind of give and take.

59:07

-

Pretty powerful.

59:12

-

Yeah, it was. It was very powerful.

59:14

-

So what came after that for you in terms of...?

59:16

-

(mumbles)

59:20

-

What?

59:22

-

(mumbles)

59:23

(laughs)

59:25

Actually, I was part of Sisters Supporting Sisters.

59:26

-

Oh, yes.

59:32

I almost forgot about that one, huh.

59:33

-

Yeah, I was part of a women of color, rainbow women,

59:36

but nothing as powerful as the Lesbian Task Force.

59:45

-

What was the Sisters Supporting Sisters?

59:49

Was that the one that Charlotte?

59:51

No, she didn't do that one.

59:53

-

No, it was... Hattie...

59:56

It was a woman who was...

1:00:01

-

It rings a big bell for me, and I can't remember.

1:00:06

-

Yeah, the woman who moved up to Gainesville

1:00:09

and did the artwork for the book, the publishing company.

1:00:11

What was it?

1:00:20

-

Yes, I remember vaguely.

1:00:21

-

Kat.

1:00:23

-

Kat?

1:00:24

-

Yes, Kat Wong and--

1:00:25

-

Wow.

-

...her lover.

1:00:28

-

That's that piece that happened

1:00:30

at the time with Joan and the money, right?

1:00:32

Wasn't there a weird thing with Joan and the money

1:00:35

at the time with that one?

1:00:36

Was it the Sisters Supporting Sisters thing?

1:00:39

There was a weird thing that I remember,

1:00:42

when I already started being with Barbara,

1:00:44

and there was something weird with Joan

1:00:46

taking that money and using it or something.

1:00:48

I forget. Was that through Sisters Supporting Sisters?

1:00:50

-

No, that was part of the Task Force.

1:00:53

-

Oh, really.

1:00:56

I don't know if that ever got resolved.

1:00:58

I just thought it felt real crummy.

1:01:00

-

Some of that money went to, you know,

1:01:04

because I think we had close to 1,000 dollars,

1:01:08

and some of that money was borrowed money

1:01:10

to help with--

1:01:15

-

When she opened Our Place?

-

Our Place, yes.

1:01:19

-

Oh, really?

1:01:21

-

Yeah, but she gave that back.

1:01:22

That was part of the initial startup money for that.

1:01:24

-

Yeah, so a lot of things came out of that,

1:01:30

because the other thing that Charlotte did

1:01:32

was a women's preservation society or something.

1:01:35

-

Yeah, and it had something (mumbles),

1:01:38

but you know...

1:01:46

I guess the Task Force was a umbrella

1:01:50

for a lot of organizations.

1:01:53

-

Excellent, uh-huh.

1:01:54

-

Yeah, it was an umbrella of women

1:01:56

who went off and did a lot of other things.

1:02:01

-

Yeah, that's a part of that leadership thing,

1:02:03

I bet you, too, from the sense that there's

1:02:05

so many different... I remember Louise always saying, too,

1:02:08

that something would change...

1:02:11

Knew something would shift and something new would come up,

1:02:12

and something else would drift.

1:02:15

-

Yeah, whatever we needed would happen.

1:02:17

Yes, and it would put...

1:02:21

We would get together with other organizations

1:02:24

that were going on, women's organizations,

1:02:28

because, you know, the Lesbian Task Force

1:02:31

wasn't for everybody, but you could always branch off

1:02:34

and do other things.

1:02:40

-

Like everyone is their own leaf.

1:02:45

Well, is there anything else that you might want to add

1:02:47

to any of these thoughts about your feminist politics

1:02:50

or your activism in Miami?

1:02:54

Because you're still a part of it,

1:02:57

being in trading and being part of the Lesbian Task Force.

1:03:00

It's pretty big in my mind.

1:03:04

-

A big part of my coming out was the Lesbian Task Force,

1:03:07

because I guess I was involved with a women of color,

1:03:15

and they seemed to hide in the closet, you know,

1:03:26

one of my lovers at the time,

1:03:29

so it was a freeing thing for me to get out

1:03:32

and say, "Hey, I'm a lesbian."

1:03:36

At the time, with the civil rights movement,

1:03:40

and my mother was very involved

1:03:44

with the civil rights movement, and I could just, you know.

1:03:47

She can be involved in that, and that's good,

1:03:51

but I want to be involved with the women's movement,

1:03:53

because that's part of me too.

1:03:56

-

Okay, wow.

1:03:59

Your mom was real involved in that, huh?

1:04:00

-

Yeah, she was...

1:04:02

My mother went up to DC for tent city.

1:04:03

-

She was? Wow.

1:04:08

-

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:04:10

And she was very active in Miami,

1:04:12

and she was part of model cities and liberty cities.

1:04:14

There was a rebellion going on all around me

1:04:19

at that point, and I guess I chose the gay issue,

1:04:23

and my mother did the black issue.

1:04:29

-

How was your mom with that for you?

1:04:34

-

Well, you know, when my mother found out she told me

1:04:36

the same thing she told me about my husband.

1:04:42

Baby, just don't let anybody abuse you.

1:04:46

-

That's a wonderful one, yeah, wow.

1:04:49

-

And I said that the world can kiss my ass,

1:04:52

because my mother loves me and she can accept me

1:04:55

for who I am.

1:04:58

So that was one of my--

1:05:00

-

Do you still

have your mom?

1:05:02

-

No, my mother passed away in 74.

1:05:04

-

In 74, wow.

1:05:08

That's around the same time my dad passed away.

1:05:10

-

Yeah, Good Friday.

1:05:13

-

Oh, really, wow.

1:05:15

Wow, just recently then,

1:05:17

and it's almost that many years.

1:05:19

-

Yeah, yeah.

1:05:21

Easter has never looked the same.

1:05:25

-

Interesting, isn't that?

1:05:29

That those holidays, those pieces of time

1:05:31

always have that remembrance of something

1:05:35

that's so prominence of a mother's life and dying times,

1:05:37

and how amazing that you can...

1:05:46

Yeah, you must've had an amazing mother

1:05:49

to be so involved in the civil rights movement

1:05:51

in that time period,

1:05:53

because it was such a...

1:05:54

It was so much a part of our whole cultural growing

1:05:57

and being here to be a part of that.

1:06:02

-

Yeah, and I think she had something to do

1:06:05

with a supermarket on 62nd and, I think 22nd.

1:06:07

They used to charge so much to cash checks for black people.

1:06:14

My mother and them protested, and that market

1:06:20

went up in flames,

1:06:22

but she was at the (mumbles)

1:06:24

-

Wow, wow.

1:06:28

Did you go when you were a kid?

1:06:30

-

No, but she did take my sister,

1:06:33

and that's why we went to Obama's inauguration,

1:06:35

his first inauguration,

1:06:41

because my sister was there when Martin

1:06:44

did his speech in DC.

1:06:49

-

Really, your sister was there? Wow.

1:06:51

-

Yeah, and so we just...

1:06:53

All of my four sisters...

1:06:55

Me and my four sisters went to DC for the...

1:07:00

And just in memory of my mother

1:07:02

and the struggle that she went through

1:07:05

during the civil rights.

1:07:07

It was very important for us.

1:07:09

-

That must have been awesome, Mary. Wow. Wow.

1:07:12

-

Yeah, me and my sisters all...

1:07:17

We drove up,

1:07:19

and we got to DC in a hotel.

1:07:22

We were there for the inauguration.

1:07:25

Yeah, amazing.

1:07:29

-

Oh, I get shivers.

1:07:33

That's just so...

1:07:34

Again, another way of being empowered in your life.

1:07:36

And your life in a different way than even mine,

1:07:40

even though the whole experience of Obama

1:07:43

becoming a president has affected so many of us

1:07:47

in a way that, you know,

1:07:51

like I was having this bet with this guy Billy

1:07:53

who worked at my job,

1:07:56

and when Hillary and Obama were running,

1:07:58

I was going okay, who's going to win here?

1:08:02

Clinton or Obama?

1:08:05

And I had to get him a little boy doll

1:08:08

that was a brown skill like Billy,

1:08:13

brown skin, right?

1:08:17

I don't know. I kind of go by the fact

1:08:19

that, you know, he could maybe consider himself black,

1:08:22

but he was really, you know, brown, I think.

1:08:25

You know what I mean?

1:08:28

-

Right, right.

1:08:29

-

So Billy and I had this thing,

1:08:31

since we were the same age, right?

1:08:33

So we know that the 60s, the civil rights movement.

1:08:35

We knew some of the women's movement stuff.

1:08:40

He would tease me and call me an old hag or something,

1:08:42

but when President Obama got to be president,

1:08:44

I had to give him the award,

1:08:48

because Hillary Clinton didn't win.

1:08:50

(laughs)

1:08:52

He just retired this last year,

1:08:54

but he kept that sitting on his desk the whole time.

1:08:56

-

You know what?

1:09:00

It was disappointing, and yet it was gratifying.

1:09:01

-

You're right, yeah.

1:09:07

-

Because for me, Hillary was mine,

1:09:09

because that's who I was voting for.

1:09:13

Then I couldn't be disappointed,

1:09:16

because it was a black man of my race

1:09:19

who was going to be president.

1:09:22

-

Yeah, yeah.

1:09:24

-

So, you know, it was...

1:09:26

-

Well, you know, I've never been so touched

1:09:30

by seeing an inauguration on television,

1:09:33

and you were there?

1:09:36

-

Yes.

1:09:37

-

Wow. Wow, because Beth and I sat here and watched it,

1:09:39

and we were going oh my gosh.

1:09:42

This is amazing.

1:09:43

Because--

1:09:45

-

And you know what was even

more amazing is that you know how when Bush came out

1:09:48

of that tunnel?

1:09:50

(laughs)

1:09:52

And I don't think they heard it on the TV,

1:09:53

but the whole crowd booed.

1:09:56

-

Really? No, I don't recall.

1:09:59

-

It was a big, huge, boo.

1:10:01

It was... it just made your skin prickle.

1:10:04

-

I said, "Where's all the republicans?"

1:10:09

and there was a fleet of people.

1:10:13

I had never seen so many people.

1:10:16

-

I know, right?

1:10:20

-

And in one voice, they all booed this man.

1:10:22

(laughs)

1:10:26

I'm sure that didn't come on TV.

1:10:27

-

I'm sure it didn't.

1:10:32

I don't think it did. I don't remember that.

1:10:33

-

That was a high point for me.

1:10:38

-

I'm trying to think of this fella's name.

1:10:40

He was one of the younger fella's,

1:10:42

but he was more our age, I'd say,

1:10:45

but he was always a follower of Martin Luther King,

1:10:49

and I was trying to think of his name,

1:10:53

and I cannot think of this name for the life of me.

1:10:55

You probably know who I'm talking about,

1:10:58

because he was going to run for president at one--

1:11:00

-

Jesse Jackson.

1:11:02

-

Huh?

1:11:03

-

Jesse Jackson?

1:11:04

-

Yeah, Jesse.

1:11:05

Well, I wanted to tell you a quick story real quick.

1:11:07

You know how you said you made a choice

1:11:10

somewhere along the line where this is, you know,

1:11:11

you're going to be for civil rights, or women's movement,

1:11:13

or lesbians, right?

1:11:16

Well, I had to make a choice too.

1:11:17

At one time, because I don't tell this story very much,

1:11:20

but I was singing in a rock and roll group, a theater group

1:11:25

in Chicago, and I'll have to send you this little article.

1:11:30

We did a performance where Jesse was supposed to speak

1:11:35

before the performance, and the show was called

1:11:39

The Civil War and it was about the civil rights movement

1:11:43

and about the war in Vietnam, and against the war

1:11:46

and all that, and Jesse decided he couldn't speak

1:11:49

after he heard the show,

1:11:52

and I was the lead singer in that show.

1:11:53

It was rock and roll music

1:11:56

with all kinds of slides and light shows,

1:11:57

and so in that theater group, I was real involved

1:12:01

in that anti-war movement and the civil rights movement,

1:12:04

until I met the feminist movement and being a lesbian,

1:12:08

and that was like in the same year that you did the...

1:12:12

In 69, and I just felt that was my path, so to speak.

1:12:15

That now I had to shift my focus,

1:12:20

and I was going to be more of an out, proud lesbian,

1:12:23

because all the other movements seemed to fit okay too

1:12:28

in that, I mean, they just seemed to be there too.

1:12:31

He was really a pretty awesome guy.

1:12:38

I remember meeting him that time,

1:12:39

and we were all young then.

1:12:41

Hey, we were young. That was probably in 1960-something.

1:12:43

60... must've been 67, 68? Must've been right around

1:12:49

before I came out in that time.

1:12:54

-

Okay, that's when I came out,

1:12:57

because Ronda was born in 68.

1:13:00

-

She was born in 68? Wow.

1:13:02

-

Yeah, my last kiddie was born in 68.

1:13:03

-

Yeah, wow.

1:13:07

-

(mumbles) and left my husband.

1:13:08

-

Are you still connected with your ex-husband too?

1:13:12

-

Yeah, he's around the corner.

1:13:15

-

That's great. That's good.

1:13:17

-

He's 86 or 87.

1:13:19

-

Oh, he was a little bit older, okay. Yeah, not much.

1:13:21

-

And I tell him every day. I said, "Vic, I gave you

1:13:24

two caretakers."

1:13:27

(laughs)

1:13:29

The boys take care of him.

1:13:31

-

Do they?

1:13:33

That's great, Mary. Wow.

1:13:34

-

When he went to the nursing home,

1:13:36

those people were bad to my husband.

1:13:37

The boys would go there at two o'clock in the morning,

1:13:42

three o'clock in the morning to make sure they changed him.

1:13:44

-

Oh, really? Oh, wow.

1:13:47

-

Now my one son keeps him,

1:13:49

and the other one goes around and makes sure that,

1:13:53

you know, gives him a hand.

1:13:56

-

Yeah.

1:13:58

It sounds like you've got really loving children.

1:13:59

That you have been blessed big time

1:14:01

with such loving children.

1:14:04

Sims, Mary Lee - interviewed by Barbara Ester

Transcript

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