larau001018001.wav / Affidavits from women of Barry Farms Public Housing, Washington, DC re: cohabitation with men, WY... / Duke Digital Repository

Larry Rubin: Mrs. Lulu Raff of 203 N. Street SW, Apt. 318.

0:00

Lulu Raff: well, you see, he hasn’t worked, and when he doesn’t work, I don’t get any money, and I’m not able to work. And, now last month I received $40. He’s under court order to pay these payments, but like the court said, if the man hasn’t got work there isn’t anything they can do. Now I was told by the courts to go to the welfare apartment, but they do not help able-bodied men to work—that can work. They do not help you. Now, the point is, what is the woman supposed to do when she’s got her responsibilities in the home, her rent, a child to feed, a child to keep in school, she has no one to turn to for help. The salvation army is at the point, now, that they do not help the people. When they got an able-bodied man—they are not an operation like the welfare department. They think you should go to work. And then, a child has to be said, has got to be clothed. Where is the woman to get this?

Larry Rubin: Excuse me.

Lulu Raff: What’s going to happen to her?

Larry Rubin: well, what, what did the welfare department tell you down there?

Lulu Raff: well, when you get to the welfare department, if the man is able to work, the man, they tell you, just have to go to work and get a job. But, sometimes people just can’t get these jobs they tell you to go and get, and then that means that, when you don’t have no food for a child, you’ve got to get the food somewhere. And it just makes a lot of people go out and do things they don’t want to do in life. I mean, people want to live a clean life. They don’t want to do anything wrong, but, that, you still know that a child has to be fed; you’ve got to get the food from somewhere.

Larry Rubin: where, where is your husband now?

Lulu Raff: I have to live in Maryland. He lives with his mother. He and his mother has an apartment together. And he has to help to support his mother, but her family helps too.

Larry Rubin: was he helping to support you?

Lulu Raff: yes, he’s supp—he’s under court order to give me $25 a week, which the welfare department says should be adequate funds for me to live on.

Larry Rubin: $25 a week?

Lulu Raff: and I have to pay my rent out of it. I have to buy food. I have to buy clothes. I have to pay the insurance. And I had to buy things for my home. I have to pay for my son’s haircut out of it every time he needs a haircut. And there are times when a child does one piece of candy, once in a while. And I have to try to make it on that. Now, I had tried for six months to get help from the welfare department at one time, and it took six months for them to come to my aid.

Larry Rubin: I see.

Lulu Raff: and by the time they came to my aid, why, I was in such a mental condition that I was placed under psychiatry.

Larry Rubin: Well how much—you, you say that your husband is under…

2:45

Lulu Raff: A court order.

Larry Rubin: yes.

Lulu Ruff: To pay me $25 a week. Just like the man said, the man hasn’t got a job. There’s nothing the courts can do about this matter. They tell me to go back to the welfare department, but the welfare department will not help an able-bodied man when you go there. You cannot get your help.

Larry Rubin: and how much do you pay for rent?

Lulu Raff: I’m paying 33 a month at National Capital Housing. Now…

Larry Rubin: how much would you say your food budget is?

Lulu Raff: well, I have to live on less—sometimes around 7 to 8 dollars a week in order to try to budget for clothes and other things that we are in need of. Now, the best part of my food, when I have to eat, is the[unsure: (0:03:34).

Larry Rubin: Do, do, do you live with your…

3:34

Lulu Raff: I just live with my boy and myself at Capital Housing. We have been there since 1959, and the place in my name, not Mr. [Raff?]. We are not—we were legally separated when I got the place, and the place is in my name.

Larry Rubin: I see. And, well what other, what other expenses do you have?

Lulu Raff: well, I have insurance, which I have to pay of $3.16 a month. And I have to buy clothes, and I have to keep my boy in clothes, and I have to pay for his haircuts, and other things that I need at home like electric bolds, you have to have a broom once in a while to sweep. There are things that you are in need of bodily that a woman should have that you can’t get sometimes, because you haven’t got the money, there are things you just can’t get. And if I was—I had been to rehabilitation to try to get help, and I can’t even get a job through them. Each place I go, they refer me back to DC General for further medical care.

Larry Rubin: tell me, how do you get along on $25 a week? (0:04:38)

Lulu Raff: I have to get along the best way I can. There is some times we do with [unsure (0:04:40)]. There sometimes [unsure: (0:04:43)] times to the next check. We just have some beans in the house. We cooked beans. I make biscuits and that is it. We just do with that. We don’t—sometimes that—my boy, they’re giving him now a free lunch at school, but as far as I’m concerned, I have corned beef for breakfast, and if he leaves anything on the plate that’s what I get left.

4:38

Larry Rubin: how, how old is your boy?

Lulu Raff: my boy is eight.

Larry Rubin: I see.

Lulu Raff: I am a [unsure: unsure: (0:05:07)] I’m supposed to have certain foods, but I cannot get them because, if I do not have the money to buy these foods, and I have to eat several of the starchy foods we have, which is mostly all starch: beans, cheese, which I do appreciate, but which is not good for the body, as I know a young girl who’s five months pregnant, and who has lost her baby because she could not get the proper foods that she was in need of when she seeking out through the welfare office.

Larry Rubin: And…

Lulu Raff: this record is a DC General hospitalist for a young girl today, she lost her five months pregnant…baby.

Larry Rubin: Well do you, do your neighbors help you?

Lulu Raff: yes, my neighbors have had to come to my aid several times. Elaine—Mrs. Branch and Mrs. Woods have brought us food, and the social worker, the South West Community House, there’s times when they have come to my aid. They have given the help. If it wasn’t for Christmas in between these times during the winter months people giving, I guess we just wouldn’t have any food, no clothes. There has been times, at the end of the year in’63 I had to take my boy out of school because I couldn’t get the help that I was in need of. We had take, take my school.

Larry Rubin: I see. And, when was the last time you got a check from your husband.

Lulu Raff: last time I got a check, let’s see, it was last week I think it was. A week, a week or so ago it was. I forget the date. It was $15. And I received $40 for the whole month of last month. This month, so far, I’ve received no help whatsoever. I have now got, I think, $.42 to my name.

Larry Rubin: have you appeal to your husband, have you talked to your husband?

Lulu Raff: I have talked with him but that does no good. Mr. Blandford, his probation officer, has talked with him, it has done everything he can. But, just like Mr. Blandford said, the man’s unemployed. The man is trying to get work because he has to make reports to the court. The court knows he’s trying to get work. But if the man hasn’t gotten work, he can’t get it.

Larry Rubin: I see. Did you talk to the welfare department about this.

Lulu Raff: well, there is no need to go to the welfare department about this and waste your time with the welfare department in cases like this when they won’t help you. There is no use you spending your carfare running down sit there all day, when they won’t help a case like this.

Larry Rubin: how much do you think do you think you could live on in a week and be comfortable?

Lulu Raff: $35 with what low rent I’ve got.

Larry Rubin: you would say $35 a week?

Lulu Raff: I can make it beautifully. Yes, with me and my boy, because I do not care about high costs clothing.

Larry Rubin: I see.

Lulu Raff: A clean dress, hat and a dress for $2.98 would do be well as anybody with $15 dress.

Larry Rubin: I see. Thank you very much.

[tape changes]

Larry Rubin: Mrs. Dennis.

7:47

Mrs. Dennis: I’m trying to get help thro—on the welfare before, and main thing that they said, that as long as my husband is with me I cannot get any help from the welfare because he is able to work. And one time when he was sick with pneumonia as when I tried to get help and they told me I couldn’t get the help at the time because I was out there seeking emergency help.

Larry Rubin: now, Mrs. Dennis, you—you said that you did apply for welfare?

Mrs. Dennis: yes, I applied when my twins weren’t nothing but babies, and the welfare told me then—my husband is sick at the time—and they told me, well how long will he be sick? I said, well my husband supposed to down with pneumonia. I said, Dr. sent him home to me. I said, I’m supposed to be taking care of him and my babies right now. I said, I can’t do it all and go to work too. They told me that they would check through it. They said, well how long is he supposed to be help…[baby wines] shhh..supposed to be in help only—they said it, it would be about three weeks for me to keep them in bed. [to child] I don’t have any candy now will you hush. They told me that I would have to, you know that they would send 70 out to the house. I said, what about emergency help. I said, I would have to have emergency help right now. I said, because I didn’t even have milk, milk in the house for the babies. They told me, well they’ll send somebody out, that they don’t give emergency help. They are at the welfare. So, I left. I said, well that’s my main concern. I said, is to try to get some help right now until I could see what I can do. And they told me to go back to the Salvation Army. Well I went down to the Salvation Army, and they said, well, that they had helped me before. They said, that I had married out of my race and it was my concern to do what I could. They said if I hadn’t done—if I hadn’t married out of my race, they said, that I would’ve been in better shape and wouldn’t be going through and going through now.

Larry Rubin: tell me, have you ever, have you ever considered separating from your husband?

10:14

Mrs. Dennis: yes, I have.

Larry Rubin: could you repeat, ‘that I have considered sep…

Mrs. Dennis: yes, I have considered separating from my husband two times. One back here last year. My husband wasn’t working at all, and I had to go out and work 12 hours straight through at night doing waitress work, and I come home and have to be at home all through the day trying to help out with the babies. Sometimes I would get the one or two hours of sleep with my husband without trying to find work and couldn’t find work because it was so cold. My husband does construction work and the just as in any work to do in the wintertime. Sometimes my husband works on-- I’d count the days up, sometimes my husband wouldn’t work one full month out of four months.

Larry Rubin: and what was the other time he considered?

Mrs. Dennis: well, that was another winter when I me—when I first gave birth to the babies. I said, well, I said, I ought to take and put the babies out in foster homes, I saying, and just go on on my own. I said, because the way it look like, I can’t—we were just not to be able to make it together, and, my husband said that he was trying to do what he could, trying to do what he could. We were living in one room with the two babies, and that wasn’t, that wasn’t good for the health. The babies was sick all the time. I had to keep running back and forth to the doctor. I had to go to the doctor myself. I was supposed to have an operation on my leg. I wouldn’t take it. Now the doctor say I’m having trouble with my kidneys. They don’t want me to work. And yet, the way I’ve been working every winter until this winter trying to support bills. My husband went down to sign up for unemployment Social Security, and they told him he was only going to draw $16 a week. In last year all he drew is $12 a week. And they tell me I can’t put him in for babysitter because he has to be free for a job if a job comes through.

Larry Rubin: and when did you—why did you did you think of separating from him?

Mrs. Dennis: I thought maybe if I left my husband and put my babies in a home and went to work, that maybe I could get some help.

Larry Rubin: Did you ever consider separating to get on welfare?

Mrs. Dennis: at one time I did, but they would—I figured it out that it wouldn’t really pay because my babies needed their own mother and their own mother love.

Larry Rubin: and that site is separate?

Mrs. Dennis: that’s why we didn’t separate. We try to make it the best way we could living in one room. Now we have an apartment running $90 a month. And I said, how in the world—if my husband went on trying to get a check—how in the world can we make it off of $90 a month, which would run $45 every two weeks, off of $16 check? And I’m not supposed to work.

12:46

Larry Rubin: you say you pay $90 a month?

Mrs. Dennis: $90 a month rent is what we pay.

Larry Rubin: and how much…

Mrs. Dennis: and it takes us at least $15 a week in food sometimes more.

Larry Rubin: I see, and how about four clothes?

Mrs. Dennis: except for when we go and eat beans. I have twin babies, so you can imagine what clothes runs for twins.

Larry Rubin: I see. How much would that be?

Mrs. Dennis: well, every time I buy shoes it runs me 6-to-$10 because their shoes runs from $4 to $5 a pair, to get a pair shoes that is decent on their foot. And, even then, a decent shoe you cannot get it for a child right around 4 or $5 a pair.

Larry Rubin: And how much wo…

Mrs. Dennis: and every time I buy a dress, I have to buy two dresses. Panties, I got a buy two sets. Pajamas, I got a buy two sets. Anything I buy, I got a buy two of because I have identical twins and I’m not to see them dress different.

Larry Rubin: and how much does your husband make, in the past several months?

Mrs. Dennis: Well, my husband brought home—last week he worked one day, which he brought in $17. This week he worked two days. He brought in 20-sum dollars for the two days altogether after everything was taken out. They took out six dollars: US employment tax. Every time—all his tax was taken out—he had $10 taken out of a $44 check.

Larry Rubin: And has he tried to find work?

Mrs. Dennis: Yes, my husband has been going to the—down to the local 74. Every morning he goes down there around 6 o’clock in the morning plus he has been to the US employment office for work. And we go through this every winter. And even in the summer sometimes there’s times when they say they don’t have work for them to do in the summertime.

Larry Rubin: Have you tried other places?

Mrs. Dennis: Yes, he has.

15:08

Larry Rubin: what other the places?

Mrs. Dennis: my husband has done work for trash companies and everything. He is even in private trash work before he got into the union, and he has tried for dishwashing jobs, Porter jobs that he’s been in the union in the wintertime, trying to find work. But, as last year, there wasn’t any work at all to be found. This year, he’s just trying to push and pull the best way we know how. Were behind in our rent now. We owe over $180 rent right now.

Larry Rubin: I see, and…

Mrs. Dennis: Every winter I have to drop insurance. I don’t have insurance on my babies right now.

Larry Rubin: I see. How much—so you owe—well, what happens…

Mrs. Dennis: the way it look, if my husband isn’t able to have any good jobs within the next two weeks—if he can work straight through for the next two or three weeks, we will have part of the rent. But if my husband don’t work, then it looks like will be put out by next month.

Larry Rubin: I see. Well, thank you very much.

[tape change]

16:20

Larry Rubin: Mrs. Rachel Lawrence of 1220 Stevens Road, SE. Okay, just a question—yeah, I know, well, when we [unsure: (0:16:40)] Okay. How long have you been on welfare?

Rachel Lawrence: May the 10th, 1963. And I was cut off August, the last of August until the first of—now, I got a check on the, I don’t know, some time in October. [inaudible: (0:17:17)] investigators?

Larry Rubin: Just say anything you want.

Rachel Lawrence: the investigators, they come into your house at all hours of the morning. They came into my house at 2 o’clock in the morning, then they also came in at 5:30 on Sunday morning: two at the back, two at the front. They go all through your drawers, closets, and the bathroom. They look everyplace, and plus, when you got teenage daughters in the house, the investigators have no business coming into your house early in the morning like that.

17:23

Larry Rubin: why do these investigators come?

Rachel Lawrence: when they come, they come two at a time. They had never showed me no credential until they last time they came in. They came to my house on a Thursday night. It was one white guy in a colored guy. The colored guy should be his identification. The white guy, he did not show no identification.

Larry Rubin: we’ll suppose you try to keep them out, what happens?

Rachel Lawrence: well, if you try to keep them out, the cut you off public assistance.

Larry Rubin: well, what are they looking for? Why are they there?

Rachel Lawrence: I don’t know. Once when they came to my house on August 4 at 5:30 in the morning they ran upstairs and when they got through looking around they had asked me where was the man. So, I told them there’s five men upstairs. So, this old guy, he laughed, said ‘haha 5 men, you are talking about your sons.’ I said, well that’s who you are looking for.

Larry Rubin: They are looking for men?

Rachel Lawrence: that’s a they said they’re looking for, man, ‘Where’s the man?’ I told them I had five men living in the house.

Larry Rubin: Well, what are they looking for the men for? Why are they looking for men?

Rachel Lawrence: I know, they didn’t give no reason. All they said, they—when, when he came back down stairs, he said ‘where is the man.’ I said there’s five up there. And, so, he smiled and he said, ‘those your sons.’ I said, well that’s who you’re looking for.

Larry Rubin: why would they go to anybody’s house look for men?

Rachel Lawrence: I don’t know. I really don’t know the reason. They had got me so nervous I called the head, up to the office to talk to someone over them, and they told me to just open the door whenever they come in and let them go on through, said eventually they’ll get tired. Now, in different one’s houses they’ve been in, they’ve gone through people’s trash cans, and one lady was in the bathroom when they went there. They waited until she was out of the bathroom.

19:16

Larry Rubin: what ha—what happens if you try to keep them out. Have you ever tried to keep them out?

Rachel Lawrence: no I have never try to keep them out. They came to my house on Wednesday night, right after I came home from the hospital from an operation. My daughter told them I wasn’t at home. Said, alright, they asked where was she gone? They told him to the—I’d gone to the hospital, alright? Seem like we are on public assistance, if you leave home and the investigators come you’ve got to leave where you’re going and so they can go and check on you. I mean, they’ll go to different neighbors’ houses. If you’re at a neighbor’s house, they go to a neighbor house. One—on a Thursday night, they came to my house. Then they went to my daughter’s children’s fathers house and told—asked the mother a whole bunch of lies, questioning her about me. But, see the investigators, they have no business going from [Barry’s Farms?], [Stanton?] Church asking about anything because those people at [Stanton] church don’t know me.

Larry Rubin: Well let me ask you again, now, why—what if they find a man, what happens?

Rachel Lawrence: Well, just like, for instance, if Larry is in my house, yes to show identification, who he is, his address. If you don’t show it, you’re automatically off. I’ve had a girlfriend in my house, they came into my home, asked my girlfriend ‘where do you work, where do you live, who’s your boss.’ What you have is no privacy whatsoever.

Larry Rubin: you said this does interfere with your private life.

21:24

Rachel Lawrence: they do. You, you have no private life on public assistance.

Larry Rubin: Are women afraid to have friends come in the house?

Rachel Lawrence: Well, in my home, I don’t allow anyone in there now because the simple reason, when they came in there, what the two guys in my house, one of the guys gave them their address, the other one was a next-door neighbor. And that’s when they cut me off. You’re not—they way it seems now, you ain’t a person.

Larry Rubin: so, you say that this—people are afraid to have just neighbors.

Rachel Lawrence: Yeah, they are. They are. A lot of—pra—all of my neighbors, we haven’t had no company. Not even down at the women’s [unsure: (0:22:09)].

Larry Rubin: Why is that?

Rachel Lawrence: Well, they’s afraid. For instance, maybe, Mr. Fricke drop by the house, alright? If he’s there when the investigators come, he’s got to give them a reason why he’s there. And that’s embarrassing, when you have company in your house and they drop in asking questions.

Larry Rubin: I see. Do many people from Barry’s farms visit each other’s houses?

Rachel Lawrence: Well. Well, no. Not too many. I don’t do too much visiting.

Larry Rubin: How about your case worker?

[telephone rings]

Rachel Lawrence: I have no trouble with Ms. Little. But this new one, oh they say she’s pretty hard, but I know nothing about her.

Larry Rubin: I see. Well thank you.

Rachel Lawrence: Your welcome. Your Welcome.

[tape changes]

Larry Rubin: …see.

23:00

Rachel Lawrence: They even look into your medicine kit.

Larry Rubin: What are they looking for?

Rachel Lawrence: I don’t know. Evidently, I guess, they are looking for razor blade, a razor, or something. But I figure it like this, when you got teenage boys in the house, they can use razors also like a man. And they also read your mail.

[tape change]

Larry Rubin: Mrs. Halley Patterson. If you could—you, you want to tell that story about your little girl? What, could you hold it there…you don’t, you don’t have to hold it there like that. And what, what is that...

Halley Patterson: well, I has a little girl that I have had since she was a month old, and now she’s five, and I have never got anything from the public assistance for her. I have to just, you know, I have three children in school. And I have to just use some of what I get for the little girl I have because they have never said why or when there can ever give me anything for her.

Larry Rubin: I see. How much do you get for public assistance?

Halley Patterson: $162.

Larry Rubin: A Month?

Halley Patterson: That’s right.

Larry Rubin: Does that cover living expenses?

Halley Patterson: no. I pay $65 rent and then I have to go back and forth to the doctor myself because I have a nerve condition and also high blood pressure. Then I have to take these kids to the clinic.

Larry Rubin: do they pay for the doctor’s visits?

Halley Patterson: a doctor’s visit? I guess if I had a doctor. They always tell me to go to the clinic. I go to a doctor, if I call a doctor, most the time they tell me go to the clinic or to a doctor somewhere, the hospital.

Larry Rubin: you say you get how much a month again?

Halley Patterson: 162.

25:14

Larry Rubin: and, and how much to spend for food?

Halley Patterson: oh, for food, it cost me around 45, $50 a month.

Larry Rubin: per month?

Halley Patterson: Yeah. I mean that’s what, that I can’t live off, but I spend out of my check I get. But still it don’t last me a whole month. Cause, see, I have two girls in high school—one in senior high and one in junior high. Then my little boy, you know, he goes to school and he come home for lunch and everything, so I just can’t make it with that.

Larry Rubin: What, what do you do?

Halley Patterson: I just, if I don’t get nothing from nobody, I just do without. I have to do without until the next time my check come in. And its like, last month, December I didn’t pay any rent cause I didn’t get no slip from the welfare to go down there to the Salvation Army, I didn’t get no basket or nothing. Well I had to go get some food, and get some things for the children for Christmas, and I had to pay too much rent which run me into—the cold cost was $103. That’s what I’d had to pay. So, well then, I—most of the time I didn’t have food for the children, I just had to do without. I mean, I go to my neighbors and som—get something. You know like, sometime Ms. McDaniel may have a little something. Some time she hadn’t, well, I’d do without. Lots of times they put my kids to bed without [unsure: (0:26:48)]. This organization that, you know, Southeast House, this organization, Southeast House, they [unsure: (0:27:01)] too.

Larry Rubin: Well, do your—how about your clothes. Does it cover your clothes?

Halley Patterson: My clothes?

27:09

Larry Rubin: Clothing expenses.

Halley Patterson: Well that’s what I have. I just do with that because I didn’t have any other income.

Larry Rubin: I see. Well, thank you.

Halley Patterson: Okay.

Larry Rubin: How about your husband.

Halley Patterson: well my husband now, we’ve been separated for three years, three years. We’ve been separated…

Larry Rubin: does he give you support?

Halley Patterson: nothing at all. He was supposed to put money in [unsure: (0:27:39)] but he ended up carrying any down there, and they told me when they got in touch with him that they was going to call me in [Coats? (0:27:46). I mean, that was last year. I haven’t heard anything from him, yeah.

Larry Rubin: I see, thank you. How much do you think you would need to live off of, you know, that would be a sufficient income?

Halley Patterson: You mean for food, like food and…

Larry Rubin: Yeah, food and clothes.

Halley Patterson: Well, well food and clothes and everything, right together, at least. See. While I guess for food and clothes and everything, I can make it off about $90 a month. I mean its…

Larry Rubin: and how much do you get a month?

Halley Patterson: I don’t get but $162. See I have to pay rent out of that.

Larry Rubin: And for food and clothes you would need $90?

Halley Patterson: That’s right.

Larry Rubin: And how much do you pay for rent?

Halley Patterson: $65.

Larry Rubin: I see.

Halley Patterson: Cause I have me—I don’t have enough to do it. I think the doctors think that’s why I I’m upset, like my nerves—they trying to find out why I stay so upset all the time, and they want to try to find out do I get enough money for support. So, I told that I didn’t. I mean, I didn’t get enough.

Larry Rubin: I see. Well, thank you.

[tape change]

Larry Rubin: Mrs. Moore. So, whe—when did you first applied for welfare, Mrs. Moore?

29:10

Mrs. Moore: in August. Really, in July but then I went back in August. I was referred there by Social Security. I was accepted as being eligible as applicant, and I found that I waited from, say, the middle of August until the 18th of January.

Larry Rubin: that six—seven months almost.

Mrs. Moore: yeah. On 14th of January, roundabout, I called Mrs. Harvey. I had tried to contact Mr. [Bruer?], but was told by Mrs. Harvey that he was out of the office but that she was his assistant and wanted to know what she would aid me. I then related to her what I have just repeated about the waiting time. Mrs. Harvey assured me that she would look into it, asked me who my caseworker was, Mr. Perry. And, she called me back in about half an hour and assured me that I would get a check on the 18th. Well I did receive this check.

Larry Rubin: now what did you do between—how were you living between August and January?

Mrs. Moore: between August and January I was living off the Social Security of my stepfather and my granddaughter.

Larry Rubin: and how much was that?

Mrs. Moore: his gran—It’s $102. In my grandchild’s $46.50.

Larry Rubin: I see, and how many people are there in your household?

Mrs. Moore: well, there would be three of us that would use this check.

Larry Rubin: I see.

Mrs. Moore: in my rent at that time was—in August—was $54. I paid $54 in July, August, September, and October.

Larry Rubin: and how much did you spend on food?

Mrs. Moore: well, I would say approximately that we spend around, not less than $12 a week on food. That’s because I don’t have to put in staples. When we’ve got a put in staples, I spent about $15.

Larry Rubin: did you find it was easy to get along then?

Mrs. Moore: no, I didn’t because the insurances have to be paid.

Larry Rubin: how much was that?

Mrs. Moore: a four-week period run $17.05 in one insurance. And of course, my son pays that, so I, I won’t worry about that. But, I mean, it became necessary for him to pay it because I couldn’t do it.

Larry Rubin: I see.

Mrs. Moore: of course, I had my… [end tape]

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John Hope Franklin Research Center