Moschella, Mary
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- | And, we are now recording Alison, thank you. | 0:03 |
Ah, I'm sorry, we were just talking about Alison (laughs). | 0:06 | |
Mary, thank you so much for agreeing to be a part of this. | 0:09 | |
If you could just say your full name. | 0:13 | |
- | Mary Clark Moschella. | 0:15 |
- | Thank you, and are you lay or clergy? | 0:18 |
- | I am clergy, ordained in the United Church of Christ. | 0:21 |
- | Great, thank you, and when and where were you born? | 0:25 |
- | I was born in Orange, New Jersey in 1955. | 0:29 |
- | Oh, okay, I'm a New Jersey person, too. | 0:35 |
Where did you go to school, | 0:38 | |
- | Uh huh. | |
- | graduate or Divinity school? | 0:39 |
- | Well, I went to Southern Connecticut State College, | 0:43 |
not far from here | 0:49 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | and then I went to Harvard Divinity School | 0:51 |
and then I went | 0:56 | |
to Claremont University School of Theology for my PhD. | 0:57 | |
- | Oh, okay, thank you very much. | 1:03 |
We were just talking about this a minute ago, | 1:06 | |
but what work or ministry were you doing | 1:08 | |
at the time of Re-Imagining? | 1:09 | |
- | I was the Pastor of the First Congregational Church | 1:13 |
of Lee in the Berkshires in Lee, Massachusetts. | 1:16 | |
- | Okay, and what did you do after Re-Imagining? | 1:22 |
- | Well, I continued to stay | 1:27 |
in the pastorate there until 1996 | 1:30 | |
when we moved across the country to Southern California | 1:34 | |
and I started school at Claremont. | 1:38 | |
- | Okay, great. | 1:41 |
Now, Mary, how and when did you first become | 1:45 | |
aware of Feminist Theology? | 1:48 | |
- | I think when I was at Harvard Divinity School | 1:52 |
in the early '80s, from '80 to '83, | 1:56 | |
that's when I got the words, | 2:01 | |
(both laughing) | 2:03 | |
the words for it, you know? | 2:04 | |
There was some kind of inkling going on, | 2:06 | |
in me, and I think that it was a, | 2:11 | |
a fertile time for Feminist Theology when I was there | 2:18 | |
and I had some great teachers | 2:22 | |
and Margaret Miles was the first woman to get tenure at HDS | 2:27 | |
and she was a mentor and still is a friend of mine, now, | 2:32 | |
and so, that's where. | 2:37 | |
- | That is wonderful. | 2:41 |
You said you kind of had an inkling, | 2:43 | |
so, I'm just curious, do you remember when you first heard, | 2:44 | |
hearing it, you immediately responded to it, | 2:46 | |
that, you know, this resonated with you? | 2:49 | |
- | Yes, yes, I had been interested in the ministry | 2:52 |
and before I went to divinity school, | 2:57 | |
I did a two-year program | 3:00 | |
in Northern Kentucky with, called US-2, | 3:02 | |
which was actually sponsored by the Baptist Church | 3:06 | |
and I had a lot of experiences as, you know, | 3:11 | |
kind of getting my feet wet in the ministry. | 3:17 | |
I was working with three small churches | 3:19 | |
and I went to a, there was a clergy gathering or something | 3:22 | |
that I attended and I was asked, "Whose wife are you?" | 3:26 | |
and "Whose secretary are you?" | 3:31 | |
- | Oh, my goodness. | 3:34 |
- | So, I had a lot of experiences that, you know, | 3:35 |
I felt like the Church was pretty sexist and, you know, | 3:38 | |
I knew there was something wrong with that picture, so... | 3:44 | |
- | Yes, so you really resonated? | 3:47 |
If we could move to Re-Imagining, thank you, Mary, | 3:51 | |
what was your relationship to the Re-Imagining community? | 3:54 | |
You attended the '93 conference, is that right? | 3:57 | |
- | Yeah, I was an attendee. | 3:59 |
I think I got a flyer in the mail | 4:01 | |
and, you know, I had a small continuing education budget | 4:03 | |
and I decided to go. | 4:07 | |
(both laughing) | 4:09 | |
- | Do you remember what led to you, why you decided | 4:11 |
to spend that small budget on that conference? | 4:13 | |
- | Well, it was something about the flyer | 4:17 |
that was just very appealing | 4:20 | |
and I knew that there were gonna be | 4:23 | |
a lot of international folks there | 4:25 | |
and, you know, I think I recognized | 4:27 | |
some of the names of scholars | 4:30 | |
and it just, you know, it seemed like | 4:33 | |
just a very exciting opportunity, so. | 4:37 | |
- | Yeah, well, after you got to the conference, | 4:40 |
what do you remember about it? | 4:43 | |
What was your experience at that conference like, Mary? | 4:44 | |
- | I had a great time. | 4:49 |
I thought it was a tremendous conference. | 4:50 | |
- | Yes. | 4:54 |
- | I remember the round table discussions | 4:55 |
that we had throughout and I really liked the format | 4:58 | |
that when the big speakers were up front, | 5:03 | |
there were, they would speak for a while, | 5:07 | |
but then there would be a pause | 5:09 | |
and there would be discussion at every table | 5:10 | |
and I felt like it was very participatory | 5:14 | |
and that everyone was valued, people of different ages. | 5:19 | |
I liked that it was colorful. | 5:25 | |
Like, there was, I have this image | 5:29 | |
of a lot of flowing fabric everywhere | 5:31 | |
and there was an artist painting during the entire time. | 5:34 | |
- | Yes. | 5:39 |
- | So, there were many things about it that I liked. | 5:41 |
It was very interesting intellectually | 5:44 | |
and there were numerous workshops | 5:48 | |
that were appealing to me, | 5:53 | |
so it was a very, what shall I say, | 5:57 | |
powerful experience. | 6:04 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | |
Now, you mentioned you were a Pastor in the Berkshires | 6:07 | |
at that time. | 6:09 | |
- | Uh huh. | |
- | What, when you came back from Re-Imagining | 6:11 |
to your congregation, did anything happen from there? | 6:13 | |
(Mary laughing) | 6:17 | |
- | Well, did anything happen? | 6:20 |
I mean, nothing sudden, but (laughs) I think I was, | 6:23 | |
I think I was empowered in some way. | 6:28 | |
I felt like energized | 6:30 | |
and maybe more willing to talk about feminist issues, | 6:33 | |
to deal with inclusive language, you know, | 6:40 | |
in a more forthright way. | 6:43 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | So, it wasn't like one thing, | 6:47 |
but it was definitely, | 6:48 | |
it made me think | 6:52 | |
and I think it made me more intentional about my work. | 6:53 | |
- | And, how did people in the congregation respond? | 6:58 |
Did they, was there any particular response? | 7:02 | |
- | No, I don't think there was any, like, pushback | 7:06 |
the way that I heard there had been in other denominations. | 7:12 | |
(dog barking) | 7:16 | |
I don't think they were necessarily that aware | 7:17 | |
of the whole thing. | 7:22 | |
I mean, I did, like I wrote a report | 7:23 | |
and I did share my experiences | 7:25 | |
and I think that Alison and I might have done a couple | 7:27 | |
of local programs together, | 7:31 | |
- | Oh. | |
- | kind of talking about it, but-- | 7:35 |
- | Do you mean, like, to churches or other groups? | 7:38 |
- | Yeah, maybe like Association-wide. | 7:40 |
You know, we have these, | 7:43 | |
the regular meetings of the, in the UCC Association, | 7:45 | |
it's like the wider group of local churches, | 7:49 | |
- | Yeah. | 7:53 |
- | so there was some, | |
maybe some area-wide conferences | 7:54 | |
where we did a few presentations. | 7:56 | |
I'm pretty sure we did that, | 7:59 | |
but Alison also, I think, was leading a group of, | 8:01 | |
she was holding a group of presentations herself, | 8:07 | |
so it might have been that, | 8:10 | |
I participated in one of those, | 8:11 | |
led one of those for her, | 8:13 | |
- | Okay. | |
- | so we were kind of spreading the word, you know? | 8:15 |
- | Yeah, and what was that like, spreading the word? | 8:18 |
- | It was great, I mean, (laughs) I, | 8:25 |
I felt really energized and like this was, you know, | 8:28 | |
something interesting and wonderful | 8:33 | |
and when I think, you know, | 8:35 | |
I started to hear about the backlash, | 8:38 | |
- | Yeah. | 8:40 |
- | I think that's when I wrote | |
that paper, Eating the Apple, you know, | 8:42 | |
(laughs) kind of responding to it | 8:44 | |
because I felt as if whoever was doing this criticism | 8:48 | |
obviously wasn't at the conference and, | 8:53 | |
you know, was criticizing something they didn't understand. | 9:00 | |
- | So, what was your response? | 9:04 |
What did you say? | 9:06 | |
I've seen one quote from it, | 9:07 | |
but I haven't seen the paper, so... | 9:09 | |
- | Well, I, oh, let's see, I said that, | 9:12 |
well, that eating the apple might suggest disobedience, | 9:17 | |
- | Yes. | 9:20 |
- | but (laughs), | |
the conference was disobedient, | 9:23 | |
but not toward God, you know, | 9:25 | |
and (clucking tongue) | 9:28 | |
I think, I talked about some of the things | 9:31 | |
that we learned at the conference, like, including, | 9:35 | |
we learned about Asian women and girls | 9:40 | |
captured in a sexual slave trade. | 9:44 | |
We learned about domestic violence. | 9:49 | |
There was an exhibit where women's clothing was hung | 9:51 | |
on the walls in the lecture rooms, | 9:56 | |
the clothing of women who had been abused | 9:58 | |
and their names and their stories were pinned | 10:02 | |
to each article. | 10:04 | |
So, I said that the conference, | 10:06 | |
I'm looking at the paper now, | 10:09 | |
the conference was defiant, but not towards the holy, | 10:10 | |
but towards those who would separate theological reflection | 10:16 | |
from the ongoing work | 10:20 | |
of discerning and dismantling injustice in our time. | 10:21 | |
- | Sounds great, Mary (laughing). | 10:26 |
(both laughing) | 10:28 | |
- | It's funny to read my old self. | 10:30 |
(both laughing) | 10:32 | |
- | I like that. | 10:35 |
It has been a few years, hasn't it? | 10:36 | |
- | Definitely, I wouldn't, but I might not (laughs) | 10:39 |
use alliteration quite the same way that I did. | 10:43 | |
(both laughing) | 10:45 | |
- | Oh, so how, when you look back on it, | 10:48 |
how do you account or the backlash? | 10:51 | |
What do you think caused that? | 10:53 | |
- | Well, I think it had to do with | 10:57 |
women running the conference, | 11:02 | |
and men were allowed to attend, | 11:05 | |
but it was really designed by women, | 11:06 | |
all of the speakers were women | 11:10 | |
and the activities, | 11:13 | |
the practices were very, kind of, | 11:17 | |
I think, oh, body-affirming | 11:23 | |
and that, somehow, | 11:27 | |
that, you know, theology hadn't made it | 11:28 | |
into the mainline churches, yet. | 11:32 | |
So, you know, I think it might just have to do | 11:37 | |
with the fear of women's agency, you know, | 11:40 | |
the same fear that makes people, you know, outlaw, | 11:43 | |
want to outlaw contraception and abortion, even today. | 11:48 | |
- | Do you feel like that theology has made it | 11:54 |
into the mainline churches more, now? | 11:56 | |
Because you said, "It hadn't yet made it." | 11:58 | |
- | Well, I think it's a little better understood, | 12:01 |
like, certainly in the UCC. | 12:05 | |
There, I think, it's a more of, | 12:08 | |
of a sort of body-affirming denomination | 12:12 | |
and (clucking tongue) | 12:16 | |
women are pastors much more frequently, now, | 12:20 | |
and we have open and affirming churches | 12:24 | |
towards LGBTQ persons, | 12:29 | |
but all of those things were a little less known | 12:31 | |
at the time. | 12:36 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Yeah, so, I mean, it was still, | 12:39 |
like, I was the first female pastor in my church | 12:41 | |
and all the women in the support group | 12:44 | |
that I was in with Alison were kind of | 12:46 | |
the first, of them, | 12:49 | |
- | Wow. | |
- | so, yeah, things were just different then. | 12:51 |
It's hard to describe. | 12:53 | |
- | Yes. | |
Well, that's striking. | 12:56 | |
I mean, on the one hand, it's 20 years; | 12:57 | |
in the other hand, it seems amazing to think | 12:58 | |
that it wasn't, in a sense, that long ago | 13:00 | |
you were all the first | 13:02 | |
in your churches. | 13:05 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | |
- | Yeah, so how would you define Re-Imagining? | 13:07 |
- | How would I define? | 13:12 |
(paper rustling) | 13:13 | |
Well, let's just think for a minute. | 13:19 | |
I just would think of it as, kind of, | 13:29 | |
the freedom to think about one's faith, | 13:37 | |
for one's self | 13:46 | |
and a kind of openness | 13:48 | |
to new ideas | 13:52 | |
and to many different ideas and interpretations | 13:55 | |
of doctrine, Scripture and, you know, religious practice. | 14:00 | |
- | Great, yes, sounds good. | 14:08 |
(dog barking) | ||
So, what aspects of Re-Imagining were most significant | 14:11 | |
to you and why? | 14:14 | |
And, by the way, it sounds like you have a dog there. | 14:15 | |
- | Yeah, someone's walking outside | 14:19 |
and she's barking her head off, | 14:20 | |
but I think it's probably nothing. | 14:22 | |
Maybe she has (drowned out) | 14:25 | |
- | Oh, good (laughs). | |
- | Then, she will stop. | 14:27 |
- | Good. | |
Well, I just wanted to acknowledge it. | 14:29 | |
I can still hear you fine, but-- | 14:31 | |
- | Yeah, I see someone walking down the street, | 14:33 |
which is, for her, it's great cause for alarm. | 14:35 | |
(both laughing) | 14:38 | |
- | Very protective. | 14:40 |
- | Yeah, no, she's okay. | |
- | So, what aspects of Re-Imagining | 14:44 |
were most significant to you and why, Mary? | 14:46 | |
- | Let me think for a minute. | 14:50 |
I, you know, I wrote, I looked in the paper that I wrote, | 14:53 | |
the report, and one of the things I mentioned was, | 14:55 | |
well, I think, most significant? | 15:01 | |
For sure, I went to an anti-racism workshop, | 15:04 | |
the first one I'd ever been to | 15:10 | |
and it really had a profound effect on me. | 15:13 | |
And, one of the things that I was told at the workshop, | 15:19 | |
I was like, "I don't know what to do, | 15:24 | |
"I don't know how to understand this," | 15:26 | |
and the people who were leading the workshop said, | 15:30 | |
"You have to deal with your own ethnicity. | 15:33 | |
"You have to come to understand yourself better." | 15:38 | |
So, I did that. | 15:42 | |
I really took that very seriously | 15:44 | |
and it ended up that, you know, | 15:46 | |
when I went back to graduate school, | 15:48 | |
my dissertation was an ethnographic study | 15:53 | |
of an Italian-American immigrant community | 15:57 | |
in San Pedro, California and I had, you know, | 16:03 | |
I am the second-generation Italian-American, | 16:07 | |
but my family's from the East Coast, | 16:11 | |
so there are a lot of differences, | 16:15 | |
but I did honestly feel like | 16:16 | |
I had to, like, get this ethnicity thing | 16:18 | |
and, as part of that, really got | 16:22 | |
a greater understanding of what race is | 16:25 | |
and, you know, I would say that's been | 16:27 | |
a really significant thread for me. | 16:29 | |
- | Wow, that's-- | 16:36 |
- | That was huge, that, | |
- | Yeah. | 16:38 |
- | and, see, that was why | |
I felt like people were saying, | 16:40 | |
"Oh, this was such a terrible conference," | 16:41 | |
and I remember there was, you know, | 16:44 | |
there was this painting that was going on | 16:45 | |
and I think there was like in one little, | 16:47 | |
(clears throat) excuse me, | 16:49 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | wait a second, | 16:52 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | (coughing) in one little corner of the painting, | 16:53 |
there might have been like a picture of a breast | 16:57 | |
and then in some Presbyterian publication | 17:00 | |
there was a blow up of this corner of the painting to show | 17:03 | |
that we were doing something terrible there, (laughs) right? | 17:06 | |
- | It's, yes. | 17:09 |
- | And, I thought, all this preoccupation with, you know, | 17:10 |
anxiety about women being seen by themselves | 17:13 | |
and what trouble they're gonna get into | 17:15 | |
with milk and honey, right? | 17:18 | |
(both laughing) | 17:20 | |
You know, the reality was, it was a serious conference. | 17:21 | |
It had intellectual depth. | 17:25 | |
There were speakers from all over the world | 17:26 | |
and, you know, we were really learning. | 17:29 | |
I felt I was really learning a great deal | 17:32 | |
about race and numerous other topics, as well, | 17:35 | |
- | but-- | 17:40 |
- | But, oh, go ahead. | |
- | Another thing that was, I had sort of forgotten about | 17:43 |
but there was a liturgical dance group there | 17:46 | |
and I was into liturgical dance at the time, | 17:51 | |
so I really loved, you know, going to the classes | 17:54 | |
and I don't know if we had a performance or not, | 17:57 | |
but it was still, it was a practice that I enjoyed | 17:59 | |
and there was a lot of beauty | 18:04 | |
and, you know, colorful, | 18:09 | |
there were colorful symbols everywhere; | 18:12 | |
there was a lot of artistic expression. | 18:14 | |
And then, of course, there was the concert | 18:17 | |
given by Sweet Honey in the Rock. | 18:22 | |
- | Yes. | 18:25 |
- | That was all a part of it, | |
but to me, it was just, you know, | 18:28 | |
it was just so eye-opening in so many ways. | 18:30 | |
- | Oh, Mary, that is wonderful, powerful, wow. | 18:36 |
So, how did your involvement | 18:41 | |
and did your involvement in Re-Imagine, | 18:44 | |
well, you've talked a little bit, | 18:45 | |
but did it specifically change your perspective | 18:46 | |
on Feminist Theology or the Church? | 18:48 | |
- | I think it just, | 18:53 |
it reaffirmed my commitment to Feminist Theology. | 18:56 | |
You know, I teach a course | 19:01 | |
in Feminist and Womanist Theology, now. | 19:03 | |
- | Do you really? | 19:05 |
- | Yes. | |
- | That's wonderful. | 19:06 |
- | Oh, yeah, yeah. | |
I mean, I've maintained an interest | 19:08 | |
and I won't say it was all | 19:10 | |
because of Re-Imagining, | 19:12 | |
- | Sure. | |
- | it was earlier than that, | 19:14 |
but I think it helped fortify that interest for me. | 19:15 | |
- | Wow, that's great. | 19:21 |
I'm glad to hear you're teaching that course, too. | 19:23 | |
- | Oh, yeah. | 19:26 |
- | Do you think that Re-Imagining made any, | 19:27 |
can you point to any specific contributions it made | 19:29 | |
to Christian theology or liturgy? | 19:32 | |
- | Well, I don't, I mean, I think the emphasis | 19:39 |
on Sophia | 19:41 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | which, I guess, was controversial, | 19:43 |
but I thought that was very strong and important, | 19:45 | |
I don't know whether it, you know, | 19:51 | |
actually changed the theological landscape, you know? | 19:55 | |
- | Yeah. | 20:00 |
- | But, well, Kwok Pui Lan, | |
her post-colonial writing may have developed since then. | 20:04 | |
I don't know exactly when she really took it | 20:09 | |
in such a strong direction, | 20:12 | |
but a lot of the figures who spoke, | 20:13 | |
the people who spoke, I think, have made an impact | 20:17 | |
on the theological world. | 20:20 | |
- | Absolutely, I wonder if you could just say | 20:22 |
a little bit more about Sophia and your reaction to that | 20:24 | |
or why it meant something to you. | 20:28 | |
- | Well, because to me it was acknowledging a feminine aspect | 20:32 |
of the Divine, | 20:36 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | which I think is long overdue | 20:39 |
and I actually had grown up Catholic | 20:41 | |
and then become a Protestant, | 20:45 | |
in my genes, a story which I'll spare you, | 20:48 | |
but (laughs), | 20:52 | |
(interviewer laughing) | ||
but I think that, you know, | 20:55 | |
at least in the Catholic Church, with Mary, | 20:58 | |
there was a sense of the feminine face of the Divine | 21:01 | |
- | Yeah. | 21:04 |
- | and that that was something | |
notably lacking in most Protestant churches. | 21:08 | |
And so, it helped | 21:12 | |
to kind of lift that up | 21:14 | |
and, you know, | 21:19 | |
I'd go back to what Mary Daly said, if | 21:22 | |
you know, if, what did she say? | 21:24 | |
"If God is male," yeah, | 21:26 | |
- | "God is male," mm-hmm, | |
"then male is God?" yep. | 21:32 | |
- | "then male is God," thank you. | 21:33 |
- | Yeah. | 21:35 |
- | And so, you know, | 21:37 |
it seemed very important to | 21:40 | |
get that sense of equality. | 21:44 | |
- | Yes, thank you. | 21:49 |
So, what do think is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining? | 21:51 | |
- | Oh... | 21:58 |
Well, I, I don't know. | 22:02 | |
I mean, its overall impact? | 22:05 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | I don't know, I mean, I didn't go | 22:11 |
to all the follow-up conferences, | 22:13 | |
but I did get the quarterly bulletin for a while. | 22:16 | |
I don't know, I think it was kind of like a, | 22:22 | |
a moment of taking a stand, you know, | 22:26 | |
- | Yes. | 22:30 |
- | that women were saying, | |
"We can do this. | 22:32 | |
"We are the Church. | 22:33 | |
"We don't need anyone else's permission," | 22:34 | |
and it ruffled some feathers | 22:38 | |
and I know that some women suffered because of that, | 22:41 | |
losing their jobs, | 22:44 | |
but I think it really was an important moment. | 22:48 | |
I can't think if any other | 22:52 | |
kind of historic moment | 22:56 | |
when women gathered like that, | 22:59 | |
you know, in such numbers | 23:04 | |
and representing people from around the world | 23:06 | |
and I'm sure there have been gatherings, | 23:10 | |
but I personally am, I guess, not aware | 23:12 | |
and to have participated in it was really important for me. | 23:15 | |
I don't know, I don't know, really, | 23:23 | |
what its overall impact has been on the Church. | 23:29 | |
I can't say for sure. | 23:34 | |
I don't think I have a kind of big picture | 23:35 | |
understanding of that. | 23:39 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Hopefully, you're going to tell us, right? | 23:44 |
- | Yeah, I hope, yes. | 23:46 |
I don't have it yet, Mary. | 23:47 | |
I'm hoping I will. | 23:49 | |
- | Okay. | |
- | I'm gaining all this wisdom from people. | 23:50 |
I hope I come up with something (laughs). | 23:52 | |
One, a couple other quick questions, | 23:56 | |
kind of a big one, which is, | 23:58 | |
what do you think Re-Imagining means today? | 24:01 | |
And, by that, I don't mean just the Re-Imagining community, | 24:03 | |
but what needs to be reimagined today, | 24:07 | |
in church, in religion, in spirituality? | 24:10 | |
- | Well, I think, really, some of the themes | 24:18 |
that were brought up then need, you know, | 24:21 | |
the connection between faith and justice | 24:26 | |
needs to be reimagined and lifted up again. | 24:33 | |
You know, Nancy Ammerman has recently just written a book | 24:39 | |
where she surveyed everyday religion, and, | 24:44 | |
this was not a common idea | 24:52 | |
among everyday non-professional people, | 24:54 | |
that faith and social justice ought to be connected, | 24:57 | |
how we're really naturally led to each other, | 25:02 | |
so I would think strengthening that idea | 25:06 | |
is one thing that needs attention. | 25:11 | |
- | Absolutely, yes, thank you. | 25:15 |
I have one last question that's really specific. | 25:19 | |
We are working on a Re-Imagining website | 25:22 | |
and we're just kind of looking | 25:25 | |
- | Okay. | |
- | for ideas about what could be included in it | 25:26 |
or who would benefit from it, any ideas you have | 25:29 | |
about what could be in it would be really helpful. | 25:32 | |
- | Okay. | 25:38 |
(interviewer laughing) | ||
Well, you know, one thing | 25:40 | |
that Re-Imagining focused quite a lot on: | 25:42 | |
inclusive language, which was the big issue of the time, | 25:45 | |
one of the big issues, large. | 25:48 | |
- | Yes. | |
That needs attention, now, | 25:53 | |
and, you know, | 25:55 | |
new attention, I think. | 25:57 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | You know, (sighing) | 26:03 |
so that's one thing, | 26:05 | |
- | Sure, | |
so just to clarify that, | 26:07 | |
- | religious language. | |
- | that, I agree with you, | 26:08 |
and I think, do you think, | 26:09 | |
like, having examples of how to use it | 26:10 | |
or, I mean, rituals, liturgy, that kind of thing | 26:13 | |
or what would be helpful? | 26:16 | |
- | Yeah. | |
I think that would be helpful | 26:18 | |
and, also, to learn to speak in ways that, | 26:20 | |
like I'm having to learn to respect people's pronouns. | 26:23 | |
So, learning to speak in ways | 26:31 | |
that include more and more people | 26:33 | |
and, you know, exclude fewer and to bring that into, | 26:37 | |
into the liturgy and music of the Church, | 26:43 | |
I think would be very important. | 26:46 | |
- | Yeah, that's really helpful, thank you. | 26:48 |
Is there anything that we haven't talked about | 26:54 | |
that you would like to add, Mary? | 26:56 | |
(static hissing) | 26:58 | |
- | Um, finishes with that. | |
- | I'm sorry, I missed that (laughs). | 27:04 |
- | No, I was just gonna look back | 27:06 |
a little bit. | 27:08 | |
- | Oh sure, please do. | |
- | No, I think, | 27:19 |
I think I gave you the highlights. | 27:20 | |
- | Good, well, thank you so much. | 27:23 |
This was really helpful | 27:25 | |
and I'm gonna turn off the recording, now. | 27:26 | |
- | Okay. | 27:29 |
- | Give me just one second. |
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