Kiser, Rebecca / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Becky, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed.

0:01

I wanna get some background.

0:04

Could you give me your full name please?

0:05

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Rebecca Lynn Kiser.

0:07

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Great, and how is Kiser spelled?

0:09

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K-I-S-E-R.

0:10

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Thank you so much.

0:12

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Simple five letters.

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It is, it's an easy one, and are you lay or clergy?

0:14

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I'm clergy, Presbyterian church U.S.A.

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Thank you very much, and when and where were you born?

0:20

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I was actually born at D.C. General Hospital

0:25

so I am a Washington D.C. native.

0:27

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(laughs) Are you really?

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Yeah.

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There aren't that many of you are there?

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No, no, not from back then.

0:33

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And when was that?

0:35

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1954.

0:36

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1954, okay, and where did you go

0:37

to graduate divinity school?

0:40

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I went to Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary,

0:42

Louisville, Kentucky, and then I did a D.Min. degree

0:45

with Matthew Fox's University of Creation Spirituality.

0:49

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Wonderful, thank you.

0:53

And what work or ministry were you doing

0:56

at the time of Re-Imagining, that would've been 1993?

0:58

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I was actually mostly home with children at that point.

1:04

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Yes.

1:11

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My youngest son was born in 1990,

1:12

so a few times in there I had part-time jobs

1:16

and so I don't know which part-time job

1:20

I would've been in in '93,

1:22

but basically I was home with kids.

1:24

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Sure.

1:26

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I had three of 'em, yeah.

1:27

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Yes, absolutely, keeping busy I'm sure.

1:28

What work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?

1:32

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Well, being trained as a clergy

1:35

I had been five years as a co-pastor before Re-Imagining

1:37

and then that time when I was more home

1:42

I did some part-time churches

1:46

and, you know, supply preaching

1:48

and moderating sessions that needed a moderator

1:50

and various things like that,

1:55

and then at some point I went back

1:57

to having two part-time jobs

1:59

and then finally got a full-time job with benefits

2:02

and that's what I've continued doing

2:04

up 'til a couple years ago.

2:06

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Wonderful, yes.

2:08

You did intentional interim ministry

2:10

is that right?

2:12

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Yes, uh huh, yeah.

Both before they had requirements

2:14

and after they had requirements.

2:16

(both laugh)

2:17

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Well Becky, I would love to know when and how

2:20

you first learned about feminist theology?

2:22

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I learned about feminist theology

2:27

when I went to seminary.

2:29

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Is that right? Wow.

2:30

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I was raised fundamentalist Baptist,

2:32

independent Baptist.

2:35

We couldn't even go camping or go swimming with people

2:38

that, you know, weren't pre-mil, pre-trib like we were,

2:41

if you know what that means.

2:45

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Pre-millennial, pre--

2:46

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It's when you think Jesus is coming back, yeah.

2:47

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Wow.

2:52

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So after my father's death when I was at college, I,

2:52

a lot of the content of my faith shifted and reformed.

2:57

In fact, I didn't quite have any content for a while,

3:01

except that I knew I still believed in God. (laughs)

3:04

So, but there'd been a lot of cracks,

3:07

and you know things led up to that,

3:08

and then I went home after college

3:09

and worked for a year and a half

3:14

in an American Baptist church with a,

3:16

the senior pastor kinda became like a father-figure for me,

3:19

and he said, "Well you know those Presbyterians

3:24

"are ordaining women, and there's women at seminary."

3:26

So it's like, wow! (laughs)

3:29

That would be kinda fun, I hope they're not too weird.

3:31

I'll just go for a year and see. (both laugh)

3:34

So it's kinda like an experiment.

3:37

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Were you already thinking about ministry at this point?

3:40

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Well, I was a musician, I had years and years of piano,

3:42

and so I figured my way into the church was church music,

3:46

but I intended to be in the church, hopefully paid,

3:50

and I even, I thought a lot about,

3:54

you know, being a missionary.

3:57

But when I discovered that I could go to seminary

3:59

I thought to myself, well, even if I don't

4:02

believe in women in ministry, at least

4:04

I can have some fun Bible studying and trying

4:06

to put things back together for myself.

4:08

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So at that point you didn't necessarily

4:10

believe that women should be in ministry.

4:12

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Well, like everything else at that point in my life

4:15

a lot of questions and opening up was going on.

4:17

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Sure.

4:20

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So I was really questioning what I'd been taught,

4:21

but I, yes, the way I was taught

4:24

was, you know, that only men were deacons

4:26

and only men were pastors,

4:29

but women could be missionaries

4:31

and out there they could preach.

4:32

(both laugh) Really!

4:34

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So how weird were the Presbyterians?

4:36

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I felt totally at home the moment I got there,

4:40

you know, even from the orientation weekend.

4:43

And it was so delightful to be studying the scriptures

4:46

the way I wanted to study them.

4:52

And, I have to say, I guess I'm considered second wave,

4:55

I don't understand all the waves too much,

4:59

but a lot of the hard work had been done

5:02

by the women at seminary before me,

5:04

the ones who walked out of class

5:06

when the professors wouldn't use

5:08

inclusive language about people and, you know,

5:10

the ones who demonstrated and did more things like that.

5:12

And by the time I was getting there

5:16

more of the women were kinda like me,

5:18

like, oh we can be ministers, what? (laughs)

5:19

So yes, I was exposed, I went to a conference

5:24

in Louisville that had something to do with feminism,

5:27

and that's where I started looking at everybody's boards

5:30

and illustrations and tables and picking up information,

5:34

and then of course some of the professors

5:38

were very much feminist, almost militant feminists.

5:40

And some of the male professors were very anti-feminist,

5:45

so it was still an interesting time to be at seminary.

5:48

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And what was your reaction to this,

5:52

to learning about feminist theology?

5:53

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It was like, oh wow, yeah, that's a duh.

5:55

Yeah of course, yeah, of course people

5:58

are all created in God's image.

6:00

It was like, wonder why I hadn't ever heard that?

6:02

I just have to go out and tell

6:05

the good news to the church!

6:06

Nope. (laughs)

6:08

I mean, it just seemed like such an obvious thing to me

6:10

that I was totally shocked

6:13

with the church at large's reaction.

6:14

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Yes.

6:18

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It was like, why wouldn't you believe it?

6:19

Look, this is all so freeing.

6:21

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Yes.

6:23

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You know?

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And was it, you say it was 1989

6:24

that you graduated from seminary?

6:27

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No, '83 was when I graduated.

6:29

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'83 is when you graduated, okay, okay, good.

6:32

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And then I was at my first church,

6:35

my first, as co-pastor, I was there 'til '89.

6:37

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Okay, okay, yes.

6:40

Wow, that's great.

6:43

Well, so you'd been introduced to feminist theology.

6:44

I would love to know, you went to the '93,

6:47

that first Re-Imagining conference.

6:48

What was your reaction, what do you remember about it?

6:51

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That '93 conference is still

6:56

one of the high points of my spiritual life, and

6:58

even before, I mean, even before there was the backlash

7:04

and I got in a more, you know,

7:07

realizing what a big thing it was, still, I remember,

7:10

well, it was the first time I'd done something

7:16

by myself since I'd gotten married,

7:19

so it was a little scary to catch a taxi (laughs).

7:21

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Yeah, yeah.

7:24

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You know.

And to do that, kinda remember how capable I was,

7:25

'cause I'd been immersed in the world

7:29

of diapers and snot and poop and (laughs)

7:31

that's a very different world.

7:36

I saw people I knew, and I guess,

7:42

my pleasure with it started when I saw the first brochures,

7:45

and the thing I remember the most

7:50

is seeing that they didn't say a schedule,

7:52

they called it time flow,

7:54

and just even the wording on the brochure was like,

7:56

you could already tell they were embracing feminist ideas.

8:00

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Mhmm.

8:04

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And, like--

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What about that phrase appealed to you, time flow?

8:05

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It didn't sound so structured and hierarchical,

8:11

and I loved it.

8:17

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Yeah.

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And then I saw that there were some pre-conference events

8:19

which I went early so I could go to,

8:21

and one of the pre-conference events

8:24

was a tour of, I guess something,

8:28

Minneapolis-Saint Paul area had some artist studios

8:31

that they bought an old building and there was artists,

8:34

but women artists in there,

8:37

and one of the women had done paintings

8:39

of women in classic poses, you know,

8:45

like looking over their shoulder and stuff like this

8:47

and they had all had some form of mastectomy.

8:50

And it was like, they were still showing their bodies,

8:54

and I just remember being so moved by those paintings

8:57

that it was incredible.

9:01

And another, I think was an extra conference event I went to

9:03

was some of the Native American tribes

9:07

had a, like a dinner and a big dancing night

9:13

and drumming night, and I went to that,

9:17

and that was fascinating, and then one of their people

9:20

was doing a workshop that I went to, so this,

9:23

it was just, the exploring of different spiritualties

9:29

and indigenous people, and like, like you had said before,

9:32

intentionally bringing in theologians

9:35

who were raised in a different,

9:39

I mean, they weren't white Americans,

9:41

and like one of 'em came from a, I guess a Buddhist culture

9:44

or a largely non-Christian culture,

9:47

and other ones from African cultures,

9:50

and it was like wow, it really does affect

9:53

how they look at the scriptures.

9:57

So it was a, really, awakening for me.

10:00

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Yeah.

10:02

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And I loved sitting around in the round tables

10:03

with the crayons, because I'm a inveterate doodler anyway,

10:06

(laughs) so it was like, oh,

10:10

they gave us things to play with.

10:12

I did not put together in my mind

10:13

that, you know, the art, I was getting something

10:16

from my unconscious doing that.

10:20

So I remember that, and I remember

10:23

some of the people from my table

10:26

and we were all encouraged to bring a gift

10:28

to exchange with the folks at the table

10:32

and I remember that I brought

10:34

a little hand puppet of a turtle. (laughs)

10:36

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Aw! (laughs)

10:38

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And the person who chose it at my table

10:40

was just delighted with it.

10:42

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Aw, how wonderful.

10:44

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You know?

So it's, a lot of the things they did,

10:46

and then of course you know they moved the tables,

10:50

you remember how you might set up in the back one time

10:52

and then your table rotates to the front

10:55

and then the speakers turned everything around,

10:56

and so it was just so inclusive.

10:59

I mean, some people, you know, you weren't stuck

11:02

in having a side view all the time, or a back view,

11:05

and you weren't stuck in being

11:08

back in a corner all the time,

11:10

so it was just so thoughtful.

11:11

And of course, being a musician,

11:14

I absolutely loved the music.

11:15

And new composed things, or older things,

11:19

and words that you didn't have to change under your breath.

11:23

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(both laugh) Yes.

11:28

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So it was like I could just sing with abandon

11:30

which was wonderful.

11:33

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Yeah.

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And I was a little weirded out by calling God "she."

11:36

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Yeah.

11:39

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But, you know, even those three or four days

11:41

it had such an impact on years and years,

11:45

years, years of thinking of God as male,

11:50

and even though I was trying to change

11:53

my thinking about God as male,

11:54

I realized how deeply entrenched that was in me

11:57

because I had a reaction to using she,

11:59

and in my mind I knew I shouldn't have that reaction,

12:02

and so since I was having it I'm thinking,

12:05

"Oh, you've been more into this than you knew, Becky."

12:07

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Mhmm.

12:10

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And so it was very challenging,

12:11

but it was also really cool,

12:13

'cause I could not go back and do that in my church

12:16

and I'd never been anywhere else where I'd heard that

12:18

and it was just, the whole thing was just incredible.

12:21

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Yes.

12:25

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And I went home thinking, oh God,

12:26

what a wonderful experience, oh!

12:28

And then all the rest happened. (laughs)

12:31

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Yes.

12:33

Let's move to that, the backlash.

12:35

And we'll get back to here, and I wanna hear other things,

12:37

but I know you're aware of the backlash

12:38

and there's a couple chapters

12:41

in Jann Aldredge-Clanton's books about it

12:43

but tell me how it affected you directly.

12:44

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Okay, I...

12:51

When I was writing my answers to the questions

12:54

I was remembering the little guys

12:56

sitting hunched over tape recorders,

12:58

you know, from, I guess it was the Presbyterian laymen,

13:01

and I chalk a lot of the backlash up to them.

13:03

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Yeah, mhm?

13:06

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With their red arrows pointing

13:07

at weird words and stuff like that.

13:10

So I was aware that there was people there doin' that

13:13

but I didn't realize quite the anger underneath all of it.

13:15

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Yeah.

13:20

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Personally I just, it was like

13:22

you took a holy experience to me

13:26

and you were just tearing it apart,

13:28

so it was a lot of personal hurt.

13:30

Like, you know, this was life-changing

13:33

and life-forming for me, and so affirming

13:35

of my creation as a woman and my place

13:40

in the church and in the world,

13:43

and it was just attacked really meanly,

13:48

and so I think one of the things

13:52

I've said about my adult life in other places

13:55

has been, you know, there's just this,

13:58

my life has been a constant series of disillusionments

14:01

(interviewer laughs)

14:04

where, you know, one illusion after another blows up,

14:05

but they're supposed to,

14:07

because that's why they're illusions.

14:08

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Yes. (both laugh)

14:10

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You know, you're supposed to be disillusioned,

14:12

but that hurts, and this was a huge disillusionment.

14:13

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What was the illusion that was destroyed?

14:17

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You know, that this kind of exploration

14:22

into faith and into a bigger faith

14:24

and into a larger understanding,

14:27

that should, to me that should've been

14:30

something that was celebrated,

14:33

and anybody who heard it and understood it,

14:35

or I guess that's the key.

14:39

Anybody that would...

14:40

I thought people would all welcome

14:42

this kind of exploration,

14:44

because I did it so naturally. (laughs)

14:45

It just didn't seem to be...

14:48

I mean, and I was raised a fundamentalist,

14:51

so you know, if anybody shoulda reacted

14:53

it would've been me.

14:55

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Yeah, good point.

14:57

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So there was...

14:58

You know, I already I guess in my first years of ministry

15:02

I was a little careful in how I said things

15:06

and where I said things, you know,

15:09

'cause when you're at seminary

15:11

it's kind of an ivory tower

15:12

and they say all kinds of outrageous things

15:14

and you just, and I guess that's why I didn't react

15:15

to some of the kind of outrageous things

15:18

that people said at Re-Imagining

15:19

because that's just what academic people do,

15:21

you know, they push you.

15:23

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Yes, exactly.

15:24

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And then you go oh, I might not go that way

15:25

but I could go this way, you know,

15:27

and so then you have fun with it.

15:29

But it sounds like a lot of people didn't have fun with it.

15:31

They did not see it the same way.

15:35

So there was a big personal hurt.

15:37

As things grew, some churches in my presbytery

15:42

began to write letters to the presbytery office

15:49

saying things and investigating,

15:52

and I was in Eastern Virginia,

15:55

Presbytery of Eastern Virginia,

15:56

and I didn't have a full-time church,

15:58

in fact sometimes I wasn't even workin' in a church.

16:00

I was the only one who went, you know,

16:05

because, you know, who...

16:07

Eastern Virginia has gotten more cosmopolitan since then,

16:10

(laughs) but at that point it was kind of like

16:12

we're all from Union Seminary in Richmond

16:15

and why would we go to anything in Minneapolis-Saint Paul,

16:17

you know, so my husband at the time and I

16:20

were the only two people in the presbytery

16:22

from Louisville Seminary.

16:25

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Really?

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All the rest were Union,

16:27

and we'd had a hard time gettin' in.

16:29

We were each grilled quite deeply

16:32

before they let us in.

16:35

So that had been a kind of negative experience.

16:40

But our first church, our first churches together

16:43

had been up in Wisconsin,

16:46

and so I was thinkin' oh boy,

16:49

I'm gonna go back up to that area, you know,

16:51

and maybe I'll drop in and see so-and-so.

16:53

I had a real attachment to the area

16:56

so going back to Minneapolis was kinda fun.

16:58

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Yes.

17:00

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Yeah, so that was one of the draws,

17:01

I could go back to Minneapolis,

17:03

I could maybe see some snow, and (laughs)

17:05

and then go to this cool conference, too.

17:09

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Now did people in the presbytery know

17:13

that you had gone to Re-Imagining?

17:15

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I think the word got out. (laughs)

17:17

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Uh huh, yes?

17:18

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And I think we also had,

17:20

and I forgot to look his name up in the paperwork.

17:23

There was a man, an African American man in our presbytery

17:26

who I think had been on GA Counsel.

17:29

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Mhm.

17:31

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So he and I, and maybe somebody else,

17:32

I can't remember who they were,

17:36

were asked to be on a,

17:38

what they called a town meeting panel,

17:40

and so we each made a little presentation

17:43

and then people could talk to us about it,

17:45

and supposedly this was to like clear the air

17:48

and get all kinds of things out, and...

17:51

There were people sitting on the front row

17:55

with their tape recorders.

17:57

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Really?

17:59

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Yeah.

And I asked, since I was the only one

18:00

I knew there was a woman in North Carolina

18:02

that had been there, so I asked her

18:04

if she would come up and be my moral support

18:05

or if she would be willing to sit up on the panel with me

18:07

and she agreed at first, and then backed out,

18:11

'cause she was already feeling repercussions

18:13

in her North Carolina Presbytery.

18:15

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And this was like a presbytery sponsored town meeting?

18:19

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Yes, yeah.

18:22

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Okay, mhm.

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And after we gave our presentations

18:25

and it was open for questions

18:27

it was a harass the heck out of you type thing,

18:29

it was very, very negative.

18:33

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What kinds of things were they asking or saying to you?

18:36

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Well, you know, they had listened to the laymen

18:43

and it was like, how could you call God a child abuser?

18:48

You know, that Dolores Williams thing

18:53

that pushed the envelope, you know.

18:56

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Yes, yes.

18:57

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But, you know, thinking all of us did that.

18:58

How could you, you worshiped a goddess,

19:01

that's not even Christian, you know.

19:04

So they had taken things every way.

19:06

They had taken 'em way to the outsides,

19:11

you know, passed legitimate,

19:14

and why aren't you, doesn't Paul say

19:18

that women should keep silent, you know,

19:21

all this, they brought out everything,

19:23

people who were still unhappy with women clergy.

19:25

But their churches had not left the denomination

19:27

at that point, like a lot of 'em did,

19:31

but you know they still had angers over a lot of things,

19:34

anything that was changing.

19:37

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And how were you reacting to all this, Becky?

19:40

It's a tough place to be.

19:43

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I did a lot of praying beforehand

19:48

and I did some centering.

19:50

If they'd known that they probably

19:52

would've got me for that centering stuff

19:53

(interviewer laughs)

19:54

before the service, and I just thought

19:56

it was my opportunity to tell people

20:02

how important this was to me.

20:04

I think I stayed in my center pretty well.

20:10

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Did you?

20:13

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I think so.

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Yes.

20:15

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And on the way out, one of the pastors of the presbytery

20:16

who was also in counseling came up to me,

20:20

and he just whispered, "We're not gonna let you

20:22

"get so far out on a limb

20:25

"and we're not gonna let 'em saw the limb off on ya."

20:27

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Really? I wondered.

20:30

You did get some support?

20:31

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One person. (laughs)

20:34

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One person.

20:35

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Verbally said that, and then there's a lot of people

20:37

who were legitimately more interested.

20:39

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Yeah.

20:41

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Couple women came up to me in the ladies room

20:42

(both laugh) and said "Becky, that's really interesting,

20:45

"how did you," you know? (laughs)

20:47

"What do you think about," or "maybe we could talk about"

20:50

you know, and so some people who were,

20:52

they'd never heard this stuff before

20:55

but it intrigued them

20:56

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Yes.

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So I got some of that kind of response as well.

20:59

I kept getting preaching,

21:07

and being asked to supply preach,

21:09

because my style was never really militant

21:13

or never really, I didn't really embrace

21:16

the prophetic (laughs) thing.

21:20

What my own private beliefs and thoughts were

21:25

I think undergirded the sermons that I gave

21:28

but I didn't, you know, denounce

21:31

or anything like that.

21:34

So it's like, "Well she might've been there

21:38

"but she's okay, you know, we can still ask her."

21:40

Like my very first church that I got called to was like,

21:42

very small church, said,

21:46

"Well, you know we weren't allowed

21:48

"to ask what race you were

21:50

"but your voice wasn't shrill anyway."

21:51

-

Oh my goodness. (both laugh)

21:54

-

That was the weirdest remark I got.

21:58

So it's like, well we know Becky, you know, she'll be okay.

22:02

we can still ask her to preach once in a while.

22:04

And I preached quite a while for a church

22:08

right down the street from me,

22:10

and when they were ready to call somebody

22:13

I interviewed for that church,

22:16

and was pretty sure I'd get it

22:20

because I'd been preaching there for eight or nine months,

22:23

you know, a couple times a month

22:26

and I'd been moderating their session

22:27

and they liked me and everything.

22:29

And the chair of the committee

22:31

was still angry over Re-Imagining.

22:33

-

Wow.

22:35

-

And he sat in the interview

22:36

with almost his back turned to me,

22:38

lookin' out the window for my entire interview.

22:40

And after the interview was over

22:43

he caught me in the hall and he said

22:45

"You only got this interview because everybody loves you."

22:48

-

Really?

22:52

-

But you will have this church over my dead body.

22:53

And it was all from the Re-Imagining brouhaha.

22:57

-

Wow.

23:01

-

And another--

-

And they didn't call you?

23:02

-

No, they did not call me.

23:04

So that was a shock.

23:09

-

Yeah.

-

And later they called me again

23:11

to preach and fill in for a weekend

23:14

and I thought about it, and I thought about it,

23:17

and I thought about it.

23:21

I said, he was right,

23:22

the rest of them love me and I love them,

23:24

and so I went back and preached for 'em.

23:28

And my son said, "I don't know mom,

23:31

"I don't know about this, mom, they were mean to you."

23:34

I said, the one man was mean to me.

23:37

And at that point his wife was sick

23:40

and I asked about her, and he actually came up

23:43

and talked with me about how his wife was doing.

23:47

So it's like, I guess he'd got his licks in

23:51

and now (laughs) or somethin', I don't know.

23:53

But I tried not to hold it against him too much,

23:56

but you can tell I've never forgotten it. (laughs)

24:00

-

Yes. (laughs)

24:02

-

The other thing that happened

24:05

was I did get a little bit braver as I went on

24:06

and I developed a sermon about names for God,

24:09

and in it, as an aside, and I was talking about wisdom,

24:13

the figure of wisdom in Proverbs,

24:17

might've been the sermon that Jan references.

24:21

-

Yes, yes, yes?

24:24

-

No this was different.

24:26

-

It was different?

Okay, yeah.

24:27

-

This was a different one.

24:28

And as an aside I just sorta said,

24:31

you know that's where the name Sophia comes from,

24:33

because it's the Greek translation of wisdom,

24:35

that's the Greek word for wisdom

24:40

from the Jewish word hokhmah

24:41

and the Greek translation came out Sophia,

24:42

so that's where that name came from.

24:44

It was just an aside, and a guy got so angry

24:46

he wrote letters, he asked to have me investigated.

24:50

-

Who did he write letters to?

24:55

-

The presbytery exec, and the Committee on Ministry

24:56

who called me in and loved my sermon. (laughs)

24:59

-

Oh, good!

25:03

-

That church actually, the pastor there

25:07

invited me back after a few weeks

25:09

because their session got to talking

25:11

about theological issues,

25:12

and session members were saying to me, "Wow!"

25:14

You know, the session is our local governing body,

25:18

and said "Wow, we actually went to a session meeting

25:21

"and talked theology and not business." (laughs)

25:24

-

That's wonderful.

25:27

-

So they invited me back to talk.

25:28

-

Yeah.

25:30

-

And we had a nice discussion.

25:31

-

Was it about images and names for God, or--

25:33

-

Yes, yes, and about Sophia.

25:35

And so we had a nice talk,

25:38

although I was very scared, but we had a nice talk.

25:41

And then about a year later

25:45

with some turnover in that church

25:46

the new chair of the Worship Committee

25:50

invited me back to preach again (laughs)

25:52

and I just said, you know, I love you all

25:55

and I'd love to come back and preach for you,

25:57

and for your own safety would you ask around

25:59

a little bit before you confirm this invitation?

26:02

(both laugh)

26:05

Just to be sure we're all in the clear

26:07

and you don't get in trouble.

26:08

And so she called me back and she said,

26:10

"Oh Becky, I have to dis-invite you."

26:13

-

Seriously? Really?

26:16

-

Seriously, yeah.

-

Wow, really?

26:18

-

Yeah.

-

Even after that positive?

26:20

-

Yeah.

26:21

-

Wow.

-

Yeah, 'cause there was still

26:23

enough weirdness floatin' around,

26:24

I guess, with some people, and...

26:26

I'd stirred 'em up, and I guess

26:30

they were afraid I'd do it again or somethin'.

26:31

But those were really the only two.

26:34

I mean, I don't know if there was other places

26:36

I didn't get invited or whatever, I don't know.

26:40

Couple of the churches in there

26:45

that wrote letters about Re-Imagining

26:46

I actually preached at several times.

26:48

-

Did you?

26:50

-

You know, over the years.

26:51

-

Just to clarify, before or after the letters?

26:54

-

After.

26:57

-

After the letters?

-

Well after the letters.

26:58

-

Yes, okay.

-

'Cause we were there until...

27:00

So we were there from '89

27:06

and then I got divorced in '99

27:09

and just moved over to Norfolk,

27:13

which was still in the same presbytery,

27:14

and I was there until 2009,

27:17

so I was in the presbytery for a long time.

27:24

-

You were.

27:27

-

And I held several different positions

27:27

on presbytery staff as they were needed.

27:29

So I preached a long time

27:34

and it kinda went under the rug or somethin'

27:37

or back into the back of people's minds eventually.

27:39

-

So Becky, as you look at this,

27:43

how do you account for this backlash?

27:45

What caused it?

27:47

-

Well like I said, I credit the laymen

27:53

and their red letters and big arrows

27:55

and just really huge hatred campaign

27:58

for stirring things up a whole lot.

28:02

But there were things there to get stirred up.

28:05

-

What things were there to get stirred up?

28:11

-

I think many people have a very male image of God,

28:12

or did, and probably still do.

28:17

I had one man tell me, "If God wasn't male

28:22

"how did he make Mary pregnant?"

28:25

-

Oh, goodness.

28:28

-

I mean, he said that out loud.

28:29

It's like, holy moly, (interviewer laugh)

28:30

how can you even ask us things like that?

28:32

Really, it's very anthropomorphic, you know.

28:34

So there's people out there that think like that,

28:40

and bringing in the feminine was just way threatening.

28:43

And of course they weren't introduced

28:50

to the thoughts in a sympathetic way,

28:51

it was like thrust at them

28:54

with underlinings and all this kind of stuff, too,

28:56

so it was kind of an in-your-face campaign

28:58

against the Re-Imagining.

29:02

I thought it was just gonna disappear

29:05

like other good conferences, you know.

29:07

It just sorta goes into your own personal history

29:09

and that's it (laughs).

29:11

-

Yes.

-

And of course people who are angry can,

29:13

the anger kinda grew on itself,

29:18

and then Mary Ann Lundy, you know,

29:19

'cause we gave money to the, we gave money to this,

29:21

oh she was the reason we gave money to this,

29:24

oh, get her out.

29:26

So it just sorta grew,

29:27

but the God as male thing I think was really hard.

29:31

And I guess the conference

29:37

at the very end at our last worship meeting

29:44

a lot of the lesbian women who were there came up

29:48

and I can't remember whether they made a declaration,

29:52

or they just said "We're here" or something like this.

29:56

So as far as I know that was just

29:59

a spontaneous thing that they did.

30:01

But that was probably the first time

30:04

some of the LGBT issues got put up

30:06

in front of the church as well.

30:09

There was no background of that that I knew of,

30:11

so I think there was a lot of things

30:19

in the conference that scared people

30:21

and the people with the tape recorders.

30:23

So that's my thoughts.

30:27

-

Yeah, oh that's very good.

30:28

How would you define re-imagining?

30:31

-

Just the word as the word, right?

30:34

-

Yeah, yeah.

30:36

-

I love the word imagination

30:41

and I think that's the way theology grows

30:43

and that's the way theology moves,

30:47

things that don't fit together well,

30:50

and you imagine.

30:52

So re-imagine was, you know, let's think some more.

30:53

Let's push the envelope a little bit.

30:57

Well if it's not this way, maybe it's this way.

30:59

You know, so it's kinda realizing

31:01

that things aren't set in stone,

31:04

which might've been another reason people reacted,

31:06

because they liked things set in stone,

31:08

and I was realizing by that time in my life

31:11

that things are more in flux than I ever thought,

31:13

including faith and theology.

31:17

So yeah, it was a very intriguing word to me.

31:20

I had people argue with me

31:25

that the real word was re-imaging.

31:26

-

Is that right?

31:28

-

Yes, and they got mad and pounded the table

31:29

that the real word was re-imaging,

31:32

and I was like, no it wasn't.

31:34

-

People who weren't at the conference.

31:35

-

People who weren't at the conference

31:37

(interviewer laughs) trying to tell me

31:38

what the name of it was. (laughs)

31:39

-

Now I don't know if you've ever heard the story,

31:41

the word was supposed to be re-imaging

31:42

-

Oh was it?

31:44

-

And someone wrote it

on the board wrong.

31:45

-

Oh, I've never heard that story.

31:46

-

Yes, and then everybody said we like that better.

31:48

-

Yeah.

31:51

-

Yes.

-

Well, re-imaging's a good word too.

31:52

-

It is, it is a good word yes.

31:53

-

And I, when I was writing my answers down

31:55

it was like, a few years later

31:57

it became real cool to slip the word re-imagining

32:02

into the title of your article. (both laugh)

32:05

Or to slip it into a speech.

32:08

-

Yes.

32:10

-

You know, people kind of started revealing

32:11

their sympathies by sneaking that word into things,

32:13

and I began to notice that

32:17

and it just made me snicker.

32:18

-

Yes, yes.

32:20

Oh, and I was gonna ask you,

32:22

you actually wrote for the Re-Imagining Quarterly?

32:23

-

Yes I did.

32:26

-

Tell me a little bit about that.

32:26

-

Right before my last son

32:36

I had a child who was born in a hopeless condition,

32:39

and we had her at home with us

32:43

for the six weeks while she died,

32:45

and it sent me into like an ongoing depression,

32:52

and it also opened up all kinds of issues

32:56

of family and everything.

32:59

I mean, it was like my imagery of that was,

33:01

see, I like imagery stuff anyway.

33:04

-

Yes, you do.

33:06

-

Well it's like, okay, there was a crack in the crust

33:08

and now all the volcano comes out.

33:11

You know, so it wasn't just,

33:13

it started off with my grief, but it became the crack

33:15

where a lot of stuff came out.

33:20

And I started journaling and I started writing poetry

33:21

just as a way to try to express myself.

33:27

-

Had you written poetry before?

33:29

-

No, uh uh.

33:31

-

Wow.

-

And I haven't written a lot since,

33:32

I have to be in a really emotional place to write poetry,

33:35

and then it's really great to do.

33:39

So I sent in, you know, they would announce

33:42

in the magazine what the upcoming themes were,

33:46

and so I said I could probably fit in some of those themes,

33:50

and we'll see what happens, I'll just send 'em in.

33:53

So that was really neat.

33:57

-

Yes.

33:59

-

And one of the poems was about the birth of my daughter,

34:00

and how I felt about that.

34:05

I had not had a good relationship with my mom,

34:09

and, you know, there's still all those lingering things

34:13

about oh, you're just a girl.

34:15

No matter what you've changed in your thinking

34:17

the other things come out,

34:20

and I'd been afraid to have a daughter.

34:21

I was glad I had a son, you know,

34:25

'cause he was a lot easier to deal with emotionally

34:27

and I said, I don't want

34:32

the relationship with her

34:34

that I had with my mom, what am I gonna do?

34:36

So I kinda worried about that,

34:43

and when she was being born

34:47

she was as broad-shouldered as I am and she got stuck,

34:50

and they had to work on her to get her out.

34:54

(laughs)

34:56

-

Oh goodness.

-

And so the doctor is saying,

34:58

well the nurses had guessed it was a girl,

34:59

and he said, "If this isn't a girl

35:01

"it's gonna be a football player." (both laugh)

35:02

And, but then when they got her out

35:06

and I saw her, I just ripped off the front of my gown

35:10

and put her right on my naked chest

35:14

and I loved her so fiercely.

35:17

I mean, it was like a redemption of a sort,

35:19

and I said yep, she's got the shoulders

35:24

and she's got the hips, so she's gonna have

35:27

some body image trouble. (laughs)

35:29

But, you know, she was my daughter,

35:31

so I wrote the poem about that.

35:35

-

And what was her name?

35:37

-

Cacey.

35:39

-

Casey, Casey.

Wanna remember Casey, I love it.

35:41

-

She's my living daughter.

35:44

-

Oh she is, okay.

35:45

-

Yes, she's now married and has a grandbaby.

35:46

-

Awww.

35:48

-

And she's a wonderful girl

35:49

and we have a great relationship.

35:50

-

Aw, Becky, how wonderful.

35:52

-

It healed a lot of things.

35:55

-

It really did, yeah, yeah.

35:56

-

So that's what I wrote about that,

35:58

'cause it's, you know, the female image

36:00

and what the images we have of ourself,

36:02

and a lot of people said oh I just want a girl,

36:04

I just want a girl so we can do all those things together

36:07

and I'm going, I don't know if I want a girl.

36:09

-

Yeah.

36:12

-

You know, so...

-

You know, you talked about loving images

36:15

and I know you've written about this

36:17

or it's been written about, but I wonder

36:19

if you could talk about Jesus and the casserole?

36:20

I love that.

36:23

-

(laughs) Well that probably came about

36:24

because of the Re-Imagining,

36:29

and freeing my imagination to think of God

36:30

and expand my vocabulary and my understanding of God.

36:34

This was, again, after my daughter Emma had died,

36:39

and part of working through my own anger,

36:43

which I didn't think I had,

36:49

because, of course, theoretically and mentally

36:51

I understood that things happen to all people

36:54

and that, you know, ministers aren't spared,

36:57

good Christians aren't spared.

37:00

In fact, sometimes they have worse things happen to 'em

37:01

and God doesn't rescue us, and you know,

37:04

there was all those things I knew in my mind.

37:07

But there was also a big deep part of me

37:10

that was very angry that, you know,

37:12

God didn't seem to do any more for me

37:15

than the people in church did

37:17

when they brought over casseroles.

37:19

Which doesn't really help your grief,

37:22

but it, you know, you're fed for the night. (laughs)

37:23

And my spiritual director that I was talkin' with

37:27

at that point kept trying to say that

37:30

"God is with you, God is suffering with you,

37:33

"God feels your pain," and "Jesus is present with you"

37:35

and these kinda nice things,

37:38

and I'm saying, well, you know,

37:40

what good is it if he just brings me another casserole?

37:41

(interviewer laughs)

37:44

So, I think, and when I was writin' about it,

37:46

it's like, some of those old pictures

37:50

from your old Sunday school quarterlies, you know,

37:52

where Jesus is knocking at the heart's door,

37:54

and I pictured Jesus coming with a casserole,

37:57

that was where my imagery went.

38:00

Knock knock knock, chicken. (both laugh)

38:02

And I actually sculpted it in some clay stuff

38:05

and it came out a feminine figure,

38:11

it came out havin' breasts.

38:14

It was like, most of the people

38:17

who brought me casseroles were women.

38:18

-

Of course.

38:20

-

Or paper plates or all the other desserts

38:22

and whatever they brought.

38:23

So I sat with that figure for a long time

38:27

until the clay kinda started breaking down,

38:34

but it was an important figure

38:37

and it became important in my work with God.

38:39

Not only the feminine aspect,

38:42

but I'd looked at her and I couldn't tell whether,

38:44

she didn't look like she was sad for me,

38:50

she didn't look like she was crying.

38:54

She didn't look like she was mad at me.

38:56

She just looked like she was,

38:57

you know, just there, and accepting

39:01

and I could rage at her

39:04

but she didn't go away and her face didn't change

39:09

and I think I finally started to find

39:13

some of the things my spiritual director had been saying,

39:17

which, you know, she's present,

39:21

and yes, that's what she does.

39:22

She doesn't fix it, but that's...

39:25

That eventually started to become closer to enough.

39:30

Not totally enough, but closer.

39:34

So it was a real important image

39:37

in my own grieving and my own dealing with,

39:40

you know, those feelings that are still in there,

39:44

the anger and loss.

39:47

-

Of course, yeah.

What an image, thank you for telling,

39:51

talking about that.

39:53

You know, you mentioned earlier,

39:54

I wanted to talk about the significance

39:55

of Re-Imagining for you.

39:57

You said earlier it was one of the most transformative

39:58

spiritual experiences of your life?

40:01

-

Yes, it was just a high point, it was like ecstasy.

40:03

-

Wow, and what about it,

40:05

what was most significant to you and why?

40:08

-

Some of the times of just being in there

40:12

and it was a huge, you remember,

40:15

it was a huge building, a huge auditorium,

40:16

and people were saying things that were what I'd thought,

40:21

or maybe a little further than what I'd thought,

40:26

and stretching me, so it was a mental experience.

40:28

And then I was surrounded by people,

40:33

other women who had come to hear that

40:36

because they were thinking like me

40:39

so it was a communal-type experience

40:40

and then I think it was the singing,

40:43

that I could sing without having to change the words

40:47

and I could just sing out, and with all these other people

40:49

that were singing out, and do the grape vine step

40:53

or whatever, you know?

40:55

So it was embodied, and I think all of those,

40:57

they just rolled up into being a high point,

41:01

just a real high point.

41:03

-

Yeah, yeah.

41:05

And...

41:07

Sorry, one minute here.

41:12

Did your experience at Re-Imagining change your perspective

41:15

on feminist theology or the church?

41:17

-

Hmmm.

41:25

I guess, another one of my images, okay?

41:29

-

Yes?

41:32

-

I had already started to picture, you know,

41:34

growing up as a fundamentalist in a real narrow thing,

41:36

and I was reminded of, you know, kitchen funnels.

41:40

They got, and then they make a turn,

41:47

and then they're not too totally wide all at once,

41:48

but they keep going out like that.

41:51

-

Yes.

41:53

-

And to me that was a picture of my life.

41:54

Raised in this part, and then at some point

41:57

I made that turn, which was probably around

41:59

the time of my father's death,

42:02

which was another place where things fell apart.

42:03

And it just kept getting broader,

42:07

so I guess I was ready for the Re-Imagining Conference.

42:08

It didn't have a big, besides being

42:11

a very important spiritual experience,

42:14

it just continued in the broadening of my thinking,

42:18

and yeah, so that--

42:22

-

You're great at images,

42:23

I love the kitchen funnel image. (both laugh)

42:24

-

My brain works that way

42:29

-

I love it.

They're great images.

42:30

In the end, what do you think

42:33

is the greatest legacy of Re-Imagining?

42:34

-

Hmm, well I think that all the backlash

42:38

just served to get all those issues out there

42:42

in a bigger consciousness.

42:45

And books came out, people started talking

42:48

about theories of atonement,

42:51

and I think things made it into the church awareness,

42:54

a more larger church awareness,

42:58

and the first reaction was big,

43:01

and yet the articles and the books

43:04

and the stuff that started coming out

43:06

and people were listening.

43:09

I think it was like, it was the kick-off,

43:13

you know, I think it was the big,

43:18

the big bang (both laugh)

43:23

of getting a lot of those issues out there.

43:26

So I, that's a wonderful legacy,

43:30

the legacy of those of us that were there

43:33

and felt that it was such a huge and wonderful

43:36

experience, too, in our personal lives,

43:38

and of course one of the big responses was,

43:41

I guess the women who in Minneapolis-Saint Paul

43:45

who had done so much of the wonderful planning

43:48

and put the conference together,

43:51

I don't know whether they had planned to become a group

43:54

or whether it was just, we need to hang together

43:57

because of what's happening.

43:59

-

So let's become a group.

44:00

-

It's the latter.

-

And that's kind of I figured.

44:02

-

Community came out of the backlash, yes.

44:03

-

Yeah, and so then that was formed,

44:05

and that's a huge legacy as well to carry on.

44:08

-

Well Becky, let me get your impression of this.

44:12

Re-Imagining wanted to bring inclusive language to churches

44:14

and feminist theology to churches.

44:18

What's your perspective on where we are

44:21

in that in our churches today?

44:24

-

Quite a few of our Presbyterian pastors

44:28

are very aware about language about people,

44:30

maybe less so language about God,

44:33

however, I'm attending right now,

44:37

worshiping a church in Myrtle Beach

44:40

and our pastor, who's a 50-something male,

44:43

is very much a feminist, a feminist sympathizer,

44:50

a feminist whatever, anyway.

44:53

His language about people is totally clean

44:55

and his language about God is mostly clean.

44:57

(both laugh)

45:00

He still wrestles to do with

45:02

when the scripture says he all the time,

45:04

he still wrestles with that.

45:06

And me, I just decided a long time ago

45:08

to just go ahead and change it.

45:09

-

And what would you change it to?

45:11

-

Even when I'm reading it.

45:13

I just say God over and over again, or Godself.

45:16

-

Yes, yes.

45:20

-

When I'm at an EEWC conference I can say she.

45:25

(laughs)

45:28

-

Yes.

-

And practice going back and forth or something like that,

45:30

but generally in worship I just stick with the name God

45:32

and sometimes I'm picturing it spelled with D-D-E

45:37

(coughs) in my mind, but it's still pronounced God.

45:41

(laughs)

45:46

-

Yeah.

-

I think that, you know, Brian Wren wrote

45:52

a beautiful hymn about, Bring Many Names.

45:54

-

Yes, I love that hymn.

45:57

-

I've used that in worship services

45:59

and people think it's really cool.

46:00

-

Yes.

46:02

-

It's now, I think it's in our new Presbyterian hymnal.

46:05

For a while I had to write and get permission to photocopy.

46:07

Jane Parker Huber also, I went to something

46:15

where she was a presenter and she said,

46:17

"I'm just gonna go ahead

46:19

"and give you all blanket permission

46:19

"to photocopy where you need to."

46:20

(laughs)

46:22

-

Oh, nice!

-

So I felt really free to use her hymns.

46:24

You know, the little insert in the bulletin

46:27

that people drop on the floor, but they like the songs,

46:28

they do like the songs.

46:32

Most of the people coming out of seminary,

46:38

like when they come to your presbytery to be presented,

46:40

and then they're gonna be examined and everything,

46:42

'cause that's our procedure.

46:45

If they have not used good language

46:48

about people in their writing,

46:51

usually the Committee on Ministry

46:53

challenges them to change it,

46:55

so there's that kind of awareness.

46:58

-

Would they do it for language for God?

47:00

-

No.

47:02

-

Mhm, mhm.

-

And the presbytery has outlines

47:05

when you're leading worship or participating

47:09

in worship for the presbytery,

47:11

like at our presbytery meetings or presbytery events,

47:13

language about people is to be inclusive.

47:17

A lot of, there are people who will

47:22

play with images of God from the scripture,

47:24

kinda like I do.

47:30

-

Yes, yeah.

-

So I'm not the only one doing that.

47:32

There's some people who still use

47:34

exclusively he and him talking about God.

47:35

So, you know, it's more out there

47:38

into people's awareness.

47:41

Especially language about people,

47:45

that one's a little easier to grasp I think.

47:46

-

I have one last question for you.

47:52

-

Okay.

47:53

Re-Imagining is developing a website

47:54

and part of it will be history, will be digitizing

47:57

the conference presentations, for example,

47:59

and giving some of the background.

48:02

But we also wanna include resources,

48:04

so I wonder if you have any ideas

48:06

about what would be good to include in the website,

48:08

who would benefit from it,

48:12

any thoughts you might have.

48:13

-

Well I think people would wanna go

48:16

click on it and see what's there

48:18

and see what, I think,

48:20

put the right tags in it or whatever you do

48:25

to make it accessible for search engines.

48:27

I was sitting at lunch with a woman

48:32

who said she found EEWC just by sitting down

48:34

in front of Google and writing "feminist christian".

48:37

(laughs)

48:40

-

Really?

-

Putting those two words in, so you know?

48:41

-

We're having a professional web designer

48:44

'cause I have no idea how to do that, Becky,

48:46

but we are gonna try to do that. (laughs)

48:48

-

I know that it is possible to do it.

48:49

(both laugh)

48:51

-

Right, exactly.

-

Well, Jann Aldredge-Clanton's songs.

48:56

Her new composed songs are wonderful.

49:00

-

Great idea.

49:03

-

Brian Wren's songs are wonderful.

49:05

The person that, one of our little speakers

49:14

just mentioned, She Who Is.

49:18

-

Yeah, Elizabeth Johnson?

49:21

-

Elizabeth Johnson.

49:22

-

Yes.

-

I think her books are wonderful treasures

49:23

and almost mystical, I mean, when you read them

49:25

you kinda go off in the mist, mystical realm.

49:28

How beautifully she describes the divine.

49:32

Those are just a couple thoughts.

49:37

-

Those are great suggestions.

49:38

-

Okay.

49:40

-

Now, is there anything we haven't discussed

49:41

that you would like to add, Becky?

49:43

-

Let me look at the paper again real quick.

49:46

-

Of course.

49:48

-

See if anything else comes back to my...

49:49

Yeah, I was not involved in the making of the community

49:55

except for reading the magazine,

49:58

so I couldn't add anything about the making

49:59

of this structure and function of the community.

50:01

-

I loved your story about the poems, though.

50:06

-

Yeah, okay, thank you.

50:08

Okay, I think I covered everything.

50:16

-

I think you did a great job,

50:18

thank you so much. (Becky laughs)

50:19

I'm just gonna turn these off.

50:21

Kiser, Rebecca

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture