Chung, Hyun Kyung
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- | And we are now recording. | 0:01 |
- | All right, good. | 0:04 |
- | Yes, we did it. | |
So if you could just say your name. | 0:06 | |
- | Yes. | 0:08 |
My name is Chung Hyun Kyung. | 0:09 | |
- | Thank you. | 0:12 |
And are you lay or clergy? | 0:13 | |
- | I'm a layperson, yes. | 0:15 |
- | Yeah. | |
And what is your denominational affiliation, if any? | 0:17 | |
- | Presbyterian Church of Korea. | 0:22 |
Yes. | 0:25 | |
- | Okay, thank you. | |
When and where were you born? | 0:27 | |
- | 1956, May 15th. | 0:30 |
- | Okay. | 0:33 |
- | So next year, I will be 60! | 0:34 |
- | Oh my goodness (laughs)! | 0:36 |
- | I don't believe it. | |
I feel like 33, literally. | 0:38 | |
- | I think you might look like | 0:40 |
33, too. | 0:42 | |
- | Oh, thank you! | |
You're so kind. | 0:44 | |
- | Seriously, it's true! | |
It's true (laughs). | 0:45 | |
- | But I said, | |
"This is not true," but it is happening. | 0:48 | |
- | Oh (laughs)! | 0:49 |
Oh, and where you born? | 0:53 | |
- | I was born in Seoul, Korea. | 0:55 |
- | Oh, okay. | 0:57 |
- | Actually, Gwangju, Korea, | |
which is revolutionary city of Korea, | 0:59 | |
but my parents just want to put Seoul, | 1:03 | |
kept the city. | 1:06 | |
Say my record is South Korea. | 1:07 | |
- | Is that right? | 1:09 |
- | But actual birthplace | |
is Gwangju. | 1:13 | |
- | And did they want to put Seoul | 1:14 |
because it was a revolutionary city? | 1:15 | |
- | Maybe! | 1:17 |
Because they passed away, I never have a chance | 1:19 | |
to ask. | 1:22 | |
- | Sure. | |
- | But you know, when I look back, | 1:24 |
I'm very proud to be born | 1:26 | |
in the revolutionary city. | 1:28 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Yes. | 1:31 |
- | Oh yes. | |
(Chung laughs) | 1:32 | |
When and how did you first become aware | 1:34 | |
of feminist theology? | 1:36 | |
- | Feminist theology, | 1:38 |
when I first came to USA to study | 1:42 | |
1981, I was in Claremont at the time. | 1:47 | |
My fundamentalist husband, | 1:53 | |
he was educational minister in the church | 1:57 | |
and I was always educational minister | 2:01 | |
in another church, but they insisted | 2:04 | |
that I have to be with my husband. | 2:07 | |
That the only condition he can get a job. | 2:10 | |
- | Really? | 2:13 |
- | And once I can get | |
to his church, I don't have job anymore. | 2:15 | |
I have to volunteer my work. | 2:18 | |
- | Really? | 2:21 |
- | Yeah. | |
Assistant to | 2:23 | |
educational minister's wife | 2:25 | |
is like you buy one, you get one free. | 2:27 | |
- | That was the church's requirement? | 2:30 |
- | Yeah! | 2:32 |
And you know, | 2:33 | |
and I grew up | 2:37 | |
in a very liberal ecumenical church in Korea, | 2:38 | |
so that was my first experience, | 2:42 | |
daily experience of fundamentalist church | 2:45 | |
and the sermon, | 2:51 | |
invisibility of women, | 2:52 | |
everything made me so miserable. | 2:55 | |
Women cannot preach in the church. | 2:59 | |
- | I'm sorry, which church is this? | 3:02 |
- | It's Presbyterian Church. | 3:04 |
Korean Presbyterian Church is conservative church. | 3:07 | |
Is immigrant church in Los Angeles area | 3:11 | |
and (laughs) once, | 3:14 | |
only once a year woman can preach, | 3:17 | |
which is mother's day. | 3:20 | |
It's not in the main worship service, | 3:22 | |
but afternoon gathering. | 3:25 | |
She can give a talk, but not in the pulpit. | 3:27 | |
She will have to come down in the audience place | 3:31 | |
and she just read the microphone. | 3:34 | |
She can have witness for her face. | 3:36 | |
But at the time, | 3:40 | |
this very intellectual women, | 3:42 | |
she is a pharmacist, graduated from my same university, | 3:45 | |
like EWHA Women's University, | 3:49 | |
which is like Harvard Radcliffe in Korea. | 3:51 | |
So this smart woman | 3:54 | |
have this (laughs) once in a year | 3:58 | |
opportunity of women speaking. | 4:01 | |
She said when she first married, | 4:04 | |
she fought with her husband all the time | 4:09 | |
because he is a marcher, he just ordering her around, | 4:12 | |
so they put every day. | 4:16 | |
Then one day in their fighting, | 4:19 | |
her husband threw the knife at her, | 4:21 | |
kitchen knife at her | 4:24 | |
and it barely missed her and it stuck on the kitchen wall. | 4:26 | |
She said at that very moment | 4:32 | |
it was a revelation moment. | 4:35 | |
She finally understand the will of God | 4:38 | |
because in the Bible, there is many verses, | 4:42 | |
like when Israel was arrogant, | 4:46 | |
God used Babylons in other country to make her humble. | 4:48 | |
She thought her husband | 4:53 | |
is an instrument of God because she is so arrogant, | 4:56 | |
God used her husband | 5:00 | |
to make her humble. | 5:03 | |
And from that moment, she really believed that why | 5:06 | |
she has to believe no wife speak. | 5:09 | |
Obedient to husband. | 5:12 | |
Women be quiet in the church. | 5:14 | |
Everything Bible was true, | 5:16 | |
but she questioned about it, | 5:19 | |
so she was not a really humble one. | 5:21 | |
That's why her husband used her. | 5:24 | |
It's like total of oppression. | 5:27 | |
- | Yes! | 5:30 |
- | And though, | |
the amazing thing was, | 5:31 | |
it was a big church, about 1,000 people | 5:34 | |
and 90% of them are women. | 5:37 | |
- | Really? | 5:41 |
- | They so loud and clear | |
are men when she said this, | 5:43 | |
and the only one totally shocked. | 5:46 | |
I couldn't stay there in this madness. | 5:48 | |
This is attempted murder on women. | 5:53 | |
- | Yeah! | 5:56 |
- | And even at the time, | |
I just said clearly in the name of God, | 5:58 | |
in the name of Jesus, in the name of Bible, | 6:01 | |
they really justify violence against women. | 6:06 | |
She could have been killed right there. | 6:09 | |
- | Yeah. | 6:12 |
- | And everybody | |
is praising her, accepting her destiny, | 6:13 | |
her face being humble | 6:16 | |
and all this 900 women said loud yes. | 6:17 | |
It's actually, I went bathroom | 6:21 | |
and started bawling. | 6:22 | |
That was the beginning of my feminist | 6:24 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 6:25 | |
theology. | ||
I said, | 6:27 | |
- | Ah! | |
- | And I was so shocked, I couldn't go to worship service. | 6:28 |
- | Yes. | 6:31 |
- | And we drove home | |
and my husband say, "Why you | 6:34 | |
"went out? | 6:35 | |
"Why this great worship service?" | 6:37 | |
I say, "This is attempted murder | 6:39 | |
"and I could not say their hallelujah and amen!" | 6:42 | |
- | Yeah. | 6:45 |
- | And I think | |
this church is mad. | 6:46 | |
This women are crazy! | 6:47 | |
And you know, he looked at me with utter seriousness | 6:49 | |
and said, "You know, | 6:53 | |
"all these women are women of faith. | 6:55 | |
"Because you don't have a faith, | 6:57 | |
"that's why you feel that way. | 7:00 | |
"Everybody think you are crazy." | 7:02 | |
That's it, that is the end. | 7:05 | |
I got so depressed from that day. | 7:07 | |
I couldn't get out of my bed. | 7:10 | |
I don't want to go to that church, | 7:12 | |
so I become so sick, you know? | 7:14 | |
- | Wow. | |
- | And that time, | 7:17 |
Letty Russell came to Claremont | 7:18 | |
to give a lecture on feminist theology, | 7:22 | |
partnership in God | 7:27 | |
and I didn't know what is feminist theology. | 7:31 | |
So I was just all depressed. | 7:35 | |
I just went to listen to lecture. | 7:38 | |
Everything she said was so right. | 7:40 | |
- | Yeah. | 7:43 |
- | So right. | |
So it's almost like, | 7:46 | |
did you see this movie, When Harry Met Sally? | 7:47 | |
- | Yes (laughs). | 7:51 |
- | She is having | |
this orgasm and all this. | 7:52 | |
All the grandmother said, "What 'til it's coming." | 7:56 | |
Say, "What do you want?" | 8:00 | |
"I want it exactly like that." | 8:01 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 8:02 | |
I say it's like | ||
Harry and Sally, that orgasm moment for me! | 8:05 | |
So right after the lecture, I went to Letty Russell | 8:08 | |
and I said, "I don't know how you do what you do, | 8:12 | |
"but I want to do exactly what you, so tell me, | 8:17 | |
"teach me what to do," | 8:21 | |
and Letty said, she has this very interesting smile | 8:23 | |
on her face and she said, "If you want to do | 8:27 | |
"theology like me, | 8:31 | |
"there is the first experiment | 8:33 | |
"feminist school is forming in Boston. | 8:36 | |
"The name is Woman's Theological Center. | 8:40 | |
"All faculty are feminist theologians. | 8:44 | |
"It's women-only school and you can come too. | 8:46 | |
"Ah, that's good if you want to do theology like me." | 8:51 | |
So that evening, I went home and I said, | 8:54 | |
"If you come with me or not, I'm going to Boston." | 8:58 | |
- | Wow! | 9:03 |
- | "I'm quitting this school and I'm going to go to Boston." | 9:05 |
- | Ah! | 9:08 |
- | "You know, | |
"if you want to divorce me, fine, | 9:11 | |
"but if I stay in your church and if I | 9:14 | |
"just studied these dead white men," | 9:17 | |
and it was very interesting. | 9:21 | |
When I first went to Claremont, | 9:23 | |
every time I went to class, | 9:26 | |
I have just excruciating stomachache. | 9:29 | |
And as soon as I got out of the class, | 9:35 | |
I'm fine (laughs). | 9:38 | |
- | Really? | |
- | Yeah, every time. | 9:40 |
Every day | 9:42 | |
- | Oh no! | |
- | I have a stomachache, | 9:43 |
so I said maybe I'm not cut to be a scholar. | 9:44 | |
How come when I go in a classroom, | 9:47 | |
I'm always sick? | 9:50 | |
When I look back, I think I was sick, | 9:52 | |
but understudy | 9:55 | |
none of the writings are about my reality. | 9:57 | |
- | Yeah. | 10:02 |
- | It's all about | |
how to get European men's reality, | 10:04 | |
nothing to do with my reality. | 10:06 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | And so, you know, I wanted to be so successful, | 10:09 |
I wanted to be a good student, | 10:13 | |
but my body revolted it. | 10:15 | |
Then I went to Women's, | 10:17 | |
so I told that and I just moved to Boston. | 10:20 | |
- | I assume that he did not support this decision. | 10:25 |
- | Well, you know, actually, | 10:28 |
he did | 10:30 | |
- | He did? | |
- | Because I was very sick. | 10:32 |
I couldn't get out | 10:33 | |
- | Oh. | |
- | Of my bed, so he knew. | 10:35 |
He knew this emergency if he did not support me, | 10:37 | |
I might commit suicide | 10:39 | |
or I might go to mental hospital, | 10:42 | |
I become manic depressive, something is going to happen. | 10:45 | |
- | Yeah. | 10:49 |
- | My body, | |
I couldn't get out of bed. | 10:51 | |
- | Oh. | |
- | So I went to, after that shocking experience | 10:54 |
in the church, | 10:57 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | And I went to Boston and I was in Woman's still. | 10:59 |
I was the first to graduate. | 11:03 | |
- | Really? | |
- | Of Woman's, first year | 11:05 |
and first graduated. | 11:07 | |
Really founding student. | 11:10 | |
- | Then. | 11:12 |
- | I'm sorry, | |
what year was this? | 11:15 | |
- | It was '83. | 11:16 |
- | Okay. | |
- | And '83, '84. | 11:19 |
Everything they say is like honey and milk. | 11:23 | |
- | Oh! | 11:27 |
- | At the time, | 11:28 |
in that area, Rosemary Ruth was teaching. | 11:31 | |
Mary Daily was teaching, | 11:36 | |
Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza teaching. | 11:38 | |
I took everyone's class and also, | 11:40 | |
Letty Rosemary is coming all the time to teach | 11:43 | |
and I was totally | 11:47 | |
everyday, I become healthier and healthier. | 11:50 | |
And even I look at the mirror, I say, | 11:54 | |
"Oh, I have become so beautiful!" | 11:56 | |
I couldn't believe how beautiful I have become. | 11:59 | |
It was that before I was so tired | 12:02 | |
and I was so depressed, I looked like old woman. | 12:05 | |
But in my 20s, when I went to | 12:10 | |
Women's Theological Center, | 12:13 | |
everyday I feel like my brain is downloading | 12:16 | |
this gigabyte knowledge from. | 12:22 | |
(interviewer laughs) | ||
It's like everyday is enlightenment | 12:25 | |
or like Mary Daily's class, | 12:28 | |
Rosemary Ruth's class, | 12:30 | |
Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza's class | 12:31 | |
and Letty Russell's class. | 12:33 | |
It's like, I am a mega downloading every day. | 12:36 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 12:40 | |
Not only downloading, | ||
I become so | 12:42 | |
intelligent, I just feel I am so intelligent. | 12:45 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 12:48 | |
Everything they teach | ||
make so much sense! | 12:50 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Everything speak to my heart, body, | 12:52 |
my whole sickness is gone, | 12:56 | |
my stomachache is gone, my depression is gone. | 12:58 | |
I become so healthy, I'm full of energy, | 13:02 | |
my face become so beautiful suddenly. | 13:05 | |
My friends came for a visit | 13:08 | |
and they said, "What happened to you? | 13:10 | |
- | Oh. | 13:13 |
- | "You look like | |
"a completely different person," you know? | 13:14 | |
- | Wow! | 13:16 |
- | And, "I don't know what it is, | 13:18 |
"but something is going on with you. | 13:20 | |
"You are like," | 13:22 | |
"What do I look?" | 13:24 | |
And they actually used that, | 13:25 | |
"You look like a goddess!" | 13:27 | |
- | Really, oh. | 13:29 |
- | Yeah, my friend. | |
"You're radiating, you're so confident! | 13:31 | |
"You so spacious and generous, | 13:34 | |
"I don't know what it is, | 13:38 | |
"but something is going on with you." | 13:39 | |
Yeah, something. | 13:41 | |
It completely change my life. | 13:43 | |
For the first time in my life, | 13:46 | |
I have a clear mission why I am here, | 13:48 | |
how I want my life, | 13:52 | |
how I want to live my life, | 13:54 | |
how I want to contribute to the humanity, | 13:57 | |
and how well I could do it. | 14:01 | |
Just everyday, I am full of vision, and dream, | 14:05 | |
and happiness, and, you know, it's amazing. | 14:09 | |
That one year completely changed my life | 14:13 | |
because you know, | 14:16 | |
even now, my union is pretty progressive, | 14:19 | |
but comparing to what I did in Woman's Theological Center | 14:25 | |
is such a combination of education. | 14:28 | |
- | Really? | 14:30 |
- | Because basically, | |
first months, we sit down | 14:33 | |
with the faculty members | 14:36 | |
and we just talk about what we want to learn, | 14:38 | |
what we want to know about. | 14:44 | |
The second months, we make a curriculum together, | 14:47 | |
we change curriculum 10 times. | 14:50 | |
- | Really? | 14:52 |
- | On the way, | |
you re-change things. | 14:54 | |
Then all of us, | 14:55 | |
we have to work in real place, | 14:58 | |
women's place of reality, 15 hours of fieldwork. | 15:01 | |
15 hours a week, so I worked refuge woman, | 15:06 | |
and some women work with homeless woman. | 15:09 | |
Some women work the violence against women, | 15:13 | |
like shelters. | 15:16 | |
So all of us are working in a real women's issue place. | 15:17 | |
Then we bring that experience to our classroom | 15:22 | |
in relation to our own experience. | 15:25 | |
You know, I am, in a way, a refuge too. | 15:28 | |
I was in radical student movement. | 15:31 | |
I was (mutters) at torture, | 15:34 | |
then in prison, the student movement. | 15:37 | |
- | Oh! | 15:39 |
- | Then, | |
you know, I had to leave my country to start | 15:41 | |
the liberation theology. | 15:44 | |
If we read good theories, we went to jail at that time, | 15:46 | |
so I identify myself with refuge woman so much. | 15:51 | |
So it's like a liberation, | 15:56 | |
feminist liberation theology mastered. | 15:58 | |
We start with a proxy, real. | 16:01 | |
Then we have a sociologist come, | 16:04 | |
professor of social analysis. | 16:07 | |
So we did a deep feminist analysis | 16:10 | |
on feminist theory analysis. | 16:12 | |
Then we do feminist theological reflection. | 16:15 | |
Real liberation method. | 16:20 | |
Then later, | 16:22 | |
we complete everything with a feminist ritual. | 16:25 | |
That is really formative, theological formation for me. | 16:29 | |
I feel so lucky. | 16:34 | |
- | Oh! | 16:36 |
- | This is the way | |
every theological student should study, | 16:37 | |
but I think American seminaries are part of it all, | 16:41 | |
this academic excellence and some kind of captivity | 16:46 | |
of still very European university model. | 16:50 | |
Hey, this is 21st century. | 16:56 | |
We get to have a real radical pedagogy. | 16:58 | |
We are based on this power of prayers, | 17:01 | |
Brazilian revolutionary educator, | 17:05 | |
pedologically oppressed | 17:09 | |
and cultural action for freedom. | 17:10 | |
We study all this education as the revolutionary act. | 17:14 | |
- | Yeah. | 17:19 |
- | That was my beginning | |
of feminist theology, | 17:21 | |
so literally, | 17:23 | |
feminist theology saved me. | 17:25 | |
If I did not meet feminist theology, | 17:27 | |
I may end up as a replacement or hospital (laughs). | 17:30 | |
I was so angry, I maybe kill somebody. | 17:35 | |
You know, prison. | 17:38 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Or I have some cancer | 17:40 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Or something. | 17:43 |
Coming to suicide in the tomb. | 17:45 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | But this replace. | 17:47 |
I could end, especially women who are wildly creative | 17:49 | |
and authentic. | 17:53 | |
You just, you know, | 17:55 | |
I didn't know I was that kind of person, | 17:57 | |
but my body told me | 18:00 | |
this is not true. | 18:03 | |
This is not talking about yourself. | 18:05 | |
Why you spend all this money and time in your youth | 18:08 | |
studying about all dead white men | 18:12 | |
who are your oppressor? | 18:14 | |
And all, they made all this division | 18:18 | |
of your country, all this war and colonialism | 18:23 | |
and you sit down and you're spending all your youth, | 18:27 | |
and time, and money to study about them? | 18:29 | |
And nothing about your reality is in that classroom. | 18:33 | |
- | Right. | 18:38 |
- | But at that time, I didn't have this kind | 18:40 |
of consciousness fully | 18:42 | |
because, you know, I am a foreign student | 18:44 | |
who couldn't speak English | 18:47 | |
and you know, I have to just catch up | 18:49 | |
every class to get a scholarship because I cannot | 18:52 | |
have a loan as a foreigner, | 18:56 | |
so if I don't get a good grade, | 18:58 | |
I couldn't get a scholarship and I had to be pushed away, | 19:01 | |
so I study, study, study (mutters) and Tillig | 19:05 | |
and you know, all these people. | 19:09 | |
Process theology. | 19:11 | |
Process theology is a little bit better, | 19:12 | |
but still very white Hadian | 19:14 | |
and so I just got so sick. | 19:17 | |
- | Yes. | 19:21 |
- | So feminist theology really, literally saved me | 19:23 |
and still, not all | 19:28 | |
this post-modern feminist stories, | 19:31 | |
I am very much fundamental feminist liberation theologian | 19:37 | |
from today because that message | 19:42 | |
is still working better for 2/3rd of women, | 19:46 | |
Asia, Africa, Latin America. | 19:49 | |
Down to earth, get to the point. | 19:52 | |
- | Yes. | 19:55 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Yeah. | 19:57 |
- | So still I am, | |
after all this post-modern, | 19:58 | |
post-theorist, I am still fundamentally | 20:00 | |
feminist liberation theologian, yeah. | 20:04 | |
- | That was really powerful. | 20:08 |
Thank you. | 20:10 | |
(Chung and interviewer laugh) | ||
If we could switch to Reimagining. | 20:13 | |
And what was your relationship to the Reimagining community? | 20:16 | |
- | Oh, you know, | 20:20 |
I was invited because of my speech at Canberra, | 20:23 | |
just the report that I gave a keynote speech | 20:27 | |
at Seventh Assembly of World Conservative Church | 20:31 | |
is 1991, Canberra, Australia. | 20:35 | |
They ask me to give | 20:39 | |
Asian third world | 20:43 | |
feminist liberation (mutters) | 20:46 | |
perspective on holy spirit, | 20:50 | |
so I did it | 20:53 | |
and it become so controversial. | 20:55 | |
You know, there is a story of ecumenical theology book | 20:59 | |
and I just laugh out loud | 21:03 | |
because they said my Canberra speech | 21:06 | |
is the most controversial speech | 21:09 | |
in Christian history, as they said (laughs). | 21:13 | |
- | Oh (laughs)! | 21:17 |
- | So I said, "Wow!" | 21:19 |
I love it. | 21:20 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | That (mutters). | 21:21 |
- | Ah. | 21:25 |
- | Publication. | |
I said, "Oh, my God! | 21:27 | |
"This is the most controversial speech | 21:28 | |
"in Christian history?" | 21:31 | |
And I heard later, after my speech | 21:34 | |
because they ask me to do it, | 21:37 | |
I bring all aboriginal dancers, | 21:39 | |
all this naked body | 21:44 | |
with red rain clothing and body painting, | 21:46 | |
didgeridoo and dance naked and dance. | 21:49 | |
And this Korean immigrant doing shamanistic ritual with me | 21:53 | |
and the drums, and dance, and sing, | 21:56 | |
and naked body! | 21:59 | |
What else do you ask for feminist theologeon | 22:01 | |
for feminist theology bring | 22:05 | |
our sensuality, sexuality, emotion, | 22:07 | |
body, back to theologist spirituality. | 22:10 | |
So you know, they asked for it and I did it. | 22:14 | |
Church is completely divided. | 22:18 | |
They called me. | 22:21 | |
I am a heretic, witches, and I come into the sin | 22:23 | |
of apostacy. | 22:26 | |
So next day, I was | 22:28 | |
Times, New York Times, Le Monde, | 22:30 | |
(mutters), Guardian, everywhere. | 22:33 | |
One night, overnight, famous (laughs). | 22:36 | |
- | How did you feel or react to that? | 22:42 |
- | I didn't know. | 22:45 |
They ask me to do it, | 22:46 | |
so I just do. | 22:47 | |
You know, because I was very innocent at the time. | 22:49 | |
I just got out of the Union, | 22:52 | |
I went back to Korea, become a very | 22:54 | |
baby assistant professor | 22:57 | |
since I am not in ordination tract. | 23:01 | |
Actually, I was ordination tract, | 23:04 | |
but I finished all my ordination process. | 23:06 | |
And last question is whether you believe Jesus | 23:10 | |
is your own savior, only savior. | 23:13 | |
I never thought Jesus was the only savior, | 23:16 | |
so I said no. | 23:19 | |
And if I had to say yes, I don't want that kinds | 23:22 | |
of ordination, so there goes the end of my ordination. | 23:27 | |
- | Really? | 23:31 |
- | I was very glad | |
I didn't go into | 23:33 | |
this ordained ministry at this moment | 23:36 | |
because as a layperson, I could have | 23:40 | |
a more prophetic voice. | 23:43 | |
- | Right. | 23:45 |
- | So you know, they asked, so I did. | 23:46 |
But they couldn't take it. | 23:48 | |
And when I came back to Korea, | 23:50 | |
even fundamentalist, they send me death threat. | 23:53 | |
- | Oh, my goodness. | 23:59 |
- | Yeah, and my husband took side with them, | 24:00 |
the fundamentalist people. | 24:03 | |
And they say, "You don't know what holy spirit is, | 24:07 | |
"so you have to repent, and you have to receive Holy Spirit, | 24:09 | |
"and you have to speak in tongues," and all this things. | 24:13 | |
"And you have to come back to me | 24:16 | |
"and become obedient wife," | 24:19 | |
so no way I could do it. | 24:21 | |
- | Right? | 24:24 |
- | So Canberra made me | |
divorce, actually. | 24:25 | |
Then I was so | 24:29 | |
depressed again because now I have a quiet life. | 24:32 | |
Suddenly, I am on the world spotlight. | 24:38 | |
At that time, literally, I got 10 invitation a day | 24:41 | |
from 10 different countries. | 24:45 | |
- | Really? | 24:47 |
- | Every day. | |
Yeah. | 24:49 | |
- | Oh. | |
- | It was like that next three years | 24:50 |
and next 10 years, you know. | 24:53 | |
But what Canberra did is, it opened the door to me. | 24:55 | |
- | Yes. | 24:59 |
- | I traveled | |
to almost 80 countries in the world. | 25:01 | |
- | Really? | 25:03 |
- | I meet | |
human community | 25:04 | |
because I was so weird Christian, | 25:07 | |
I got invitation from Buddhist, | 25:10 | |
Islam, Hindu, and Marxist, psychiatrist, | 25:13 | |
mythologist, and feminist group, | 25:17 | |
radical feminist group, post-fem. | 25:21 | |
It's just indigenous group around the world | 25:24 | |
because they think I am a kind of theologeon | 25:28 | |
they can really dialogue, they can trust. | 25:32 | |
- | Yes. | 25:34 |
- | So it break my personal life | 25:36 |
and I had to divorce, but it also opened me | 25:39 | |
to entire life, entire world, | 25:43 | |
not just Christian community, | 25:46 | |
entire community of humanity. | 25:48 | |
- | Yes. | 25:52 |
- | So, | |
it was amazing experience | 25:55 | |
and Reimagining, | 25:57 | |
the reason they invited me as such a young scholar | 26:00 | |
because of what I did in Canberra | 26:03 | |
- | Yes. | 26:05 |
- | And they want to hear | |
what is happening after Canberra | 26:08 | |
because at the time still, so many international magazines, | 26:09 | |
theological magazines, they have a debate | 26:15 | |
on my theology in the name of gospel | 26:19 | |
and culture. | 26:23 | |
The only question is, I use | 26:24 | |
a Buddhist shamanistic symbol | 26:26 | |
to do presentation of Asian feminist Holy Spirit | 26:30 | |
and they actually, I heard one conservative church | 26:36 | |
send my speech to some religious scholar in France | 26:39 | |
whether this is a Christian speech. | 26:44 | |
And he said, "This is thoroughly, thoroughly | 26:47 | |
"Christian speech." | 26:50 | |
- | Really? | |
- | Yeah. | 26:52 |
- | Oh! | |
- | And they called me syncretist. | 26:54 |
Well you know, I feel so wrongly accused | 26:56 | |
because Christmas, Jesus was not born Christmas. | 27:00 | |
- | Yes. | 27:05 |
- | And Easter, | |
Jesus was not resurrected. | 27:07 | |
All, this is all pagan holidays! | 27:09 | |
- | Right. | 27:12 |
- | And they used Plato, Aristotle, | 27:13 |
all the philosophical system worldview, | 27:16 | |
create holiest dualistic hierarchical Christianity | 27:20 | |
and no place in the Bible | 27:24 | |
when Jesus was resurrected there, | 27:27 | |
so rabbit and eggs all around, | 27:29 | |
colored eggs. | 27:32 | |
And when Jesus was born, there is Rudolph Red Nose Reindeer | 27:33 | |
and Christmas tree | 27:38 | |
(interviewer laughs) | ||
with the light! | 27:40 | |
And this is all pagan thing! | 27:41 | |
But the interesting thing is, | 27:43 | |
when I tried to symbolize Christianity | 27:45 | |
from my own cultural symbols | 27:48 | |
and cosmology like Buddhist, shamanistic cosmology, | 27:52 | |
they think this is heretics and syncretism? | 27:57 | |
When they do it, they think it's also though. | 28:00 | |
So I said, | 28:03 | |
"You called me." | 28:04 | |
I made this, you know, | 28:06 | |
world (mutters) because they attacked me so much. | 28:08 | |
"You are right, I am a syncretist, | 28:12 | |
"but you are a synchrotist too. | 28:17 | |
"Only difference is, I know I am a synchrotist. | 28:20 | |
"You don't know you are a synchrotist | 28:23 | |
"because you are in the center of power. | 28:25 | |
- | Yeah. | 28:29 |
"Because you normalize | ||
"your culture, your cosmology | 28:31 | |
"as given." | 28:33 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | It's never given to me! | 28:35 |
And we are in a post-colonial generation | 28:37 | |
and what Jesus said, | 28:41 | |
"Don't try to put new wine | 28:43 | |
"in the old wineskin. | 28:46 | |
"That's exactly what you tried to do. | 28:48 | |
"Me, you tried to put me | 28:51 | |
"in all the wineskin of your paradigms and categories. | 28:52 | |
"I am a new wine." | 28:57 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | "And don't make your pouch | 28:59 |
"just the skin burst out." | 29:02 | |
And exactly holy spirit is wild. | 29:04 | |
You don't know where she comes from | 29:07 | |
and where she is blowing. | 29:09 | |
It's exactly | 29:11 | |
the direction of a Holy Spirit. | 29:13 | |
So I was very, very controversial. | 29:15 | |
I was still reimagining. | 29:18 | |
I was in all kinds | 29:21 | |
of theological journals. | 29:25 | |
And even with constant maturity, | 29:29 | |
it becomes so controversial they made five year | 29:31 | |
serious study all around the world | 29:35 | |
project to call the gospel and culture. | 29:39 | |
- | Really? | 29:43 |
- | Yeah, | |
because of my contribution. | 29:44 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Because Asia, Africa, Latin-American churches, | 29:48 |
they so resonate with what I did, | 29:52 | |
but the European church has become so angry about it | 29:54 | |
and at the time, they all accuse me as a syncretist. | 29:59 | |
You know, five year study made it every clear, | 30:04 | |
every Christianity is a syncretic Christianity | 30:08 | |
and that's the only way it is relevant, | 30:12 | |
but interesting thing is, | 30:15 | |
I started the whole thing, | 30:18 | |
what is five year study in all around the world, | 30:19 | |
they never invite me once. | 30:23 | |
- | Really? | 30:25 |
- | Because so many awful theologians said | 30:26 |
if they invite me, they would not come. | 30:29 | |
I think because I was really center | 30:34 | |
of controversy reimagine. | 30:38 | |
- | Yes. | 30:40 |
- | It is totally reimagine | 30:42 |
Christian theology from feminist Asian | 30:44 | |
third-world perspective, | 30:48 | |
so they want me to come and to talk about my experience. | 30:50 | |
- | You know, I just have to ask. | 30:55 |
When did you start being able to do this? | 30:57 | |
Was it at Boston where you started | 31:00 | |
doing this kind of | 31:02 | |
- | Yeah! | |
- | Theology and integrating | 31:04 |
- | Yeah, yeah, yeah. | |
- | And doing this post-colonial. | 31:06 |
- | So Woman's Theological Center. | 31:08 |
- | Is that where | 31:09 |
it started to happen? | 31:10 | |
- | Really gave me | |
permission | 31:11 | |
- | Yes. | |
do whatever I want in my wildest imagination. | 31:12 | |
It started at Woman's Theological Center | 31:15 | |
and when I came to Union, | 31:18 | |
I have Beverly Harris and James Kahn, | 31:21 | |
and Phyllis Drivel, Tom Driver, | 31:24 | |
Dorothy Julie. | 31:26 | |
They are great, imaginative professors | 31:28 | |
and Union really gave me a lot of room to, | 31:32 | |
the Woman's Theological Center I land a tour. | 31:36 | |
- | Yes. | 31:40 |
- | Union pushed me | |
in relation against this traditional theology, | 31:42 | |
how far I can push. | 31:46 | |
So in world conservative church, | 31:48 | |
the whole question is in relation to gospel and culture. | 31:51 | |
Gospel is relation to culture. | 31:57 | |
How much you can incorporate, | 32:00 | |
how much is the culture, | 32:04 | |
how much is the gospel? | 32:05 | |
And so my whole thing is, | 32:07 | |
who has a final criteria? | 32:10 | |
How much is okay and how much is not okay? | 32:13 | |
It's not European theological tradition say it. | 32:18 | |
Every community have to make their own decision | 32:22 | |
how much they can incorporate | 32:26 | |
their traditional religions, and spirituality, | 32:29 | |
and worldview and categories, and cosmology | 32:33 | |
into their theology. | 32:36 | |
It's community decide, not you! | 32:39 | |
You know? | 32:42 | |
So it's a whole (mutters) Christian. | 32:43 | |
Who defines what is truth | 32:45 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | And who defines who transmit this history. | 32:47 |
What is transmittable history | 32:51 | |
and what is discarded exactly. | 32:55 | |
So I raised the question to them | 32:57 | |
and Canberra really made me more radical | 33:04 | |
because you are so marked as a witch, | 33:08 | |
heretic, and sinner of apostasy. | 33:12 | |
I said, "Oh, what the hell?" | 33:15 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 33:17 | |
Now I thought | ||
it was like a big scarlet letter A, | 33:19 | |
Adulteress. | 33:22 | |
- | Yeah (laughs). | |
- | Apostasy, A. | 33:24 |
Apostasy speak A. | 33:25 | |
I said, "Okay, I have a big A in my chest." | 33:27 | |
- | So you're free. | 33:32 |
- | I'm free! | |
- | Yeah. | 33:34 |
- | I will do whatever I want | |
in the wildest way, yeah? | 33:36 | |
And it is still continuing | 33:39 | |
now I become a Buddhist dharma teacher, | 33:42 | |
so I become officially (mutters), | 33:45 | |
and also I did this very deep work, | 33:49 | |
holotropic breath work, so I am. | 33:53 | |
- | I'm sorry, what is that? | 33:57 |
- | Holotropic breath work. | 33:58 |
Transpersonal psychology. | 34:00 | |
- | Okay. | |
- | So I become a certified therapist | 34:02 |
and spiritual director. | 34:07 | |
And it's really based on subconsciousness | 34:10 | |
and I want to stay a divine feminine, | 34:14 | |
very feminine quality | 34:18 | |
of unconsciousness, | 34:20 | |
so you know, I'm really, really | 34:23 | |
able of being different way | 34:28 | |
and actually, Canberra did it. | 34:31 | |
If you push the person to the corner | 34:34 | |
or to the degree they have no option but attack | 34:38 | |
(Chung and interviewer laugh) | 34:41 | |
or no option but just to be who they are, | 34:43 | |
- | Yes. | 34:47 |
- | So it is | |
a disguised blessing. | 34:50 | |
It was like a curse. | 34:52 | |
I was in therapy, | 34:54 | |
I had to do this intense meditation because suffering | 34:56 | |
was so great, | 35:00 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | But it opened so many doors. | 35:02 |
I never expected me | 35:05 | |
in my lifetime, I would become a Buddhist dharma teacher, | 35:08 | |
but Canberra actually did it. | 35:13 | |
I was so attacked by Christian fundamentalists, | 35:15 | |
I need escape and that escape | 35:20 | |
was zen meditation, total silence, | 35:23 | |
sitting and crying. | 35:26 | |
And I did it just to save me from suffering, | 35:29 | |
but it take me more than saving me from my suffering. | 35:35 | |
It totally opened a whole (mutters) of emptiness | 35:42 | |
and mysticism | 35:47 | |
which I never knew that deeply, | 35:49 | |
so now I'm teaching mysticism | 35:52 | |
and revolutionary change. | 35:54 | |
Now I really get to my (mutters) | 35:56 | |
and medieval theologian. | 36:00 | |
God is pure emptiness. | 36:03 | |
I didn't have a clue what they are talking about. | 36:06 | |
God is pure emptiness? | 36:09 | |
What does it mean? | 36:11 | |
But zen really taught me | 36:13 | |
what is pure emptiness, you know? | 36:16 | |
So poor person | 36:23 | |
of faith, everything happening to you | 36:25 | |
is a good thing in the end (laughs). | 36:29 | |
- | Well you know, it was the backlash | 36:32 |
against Reimagining that lead to the formation | 36:34 | |
of the community. | 36:36 | |
- | Wow! | |
- | So there's a little bit of a parallel there. | 36:38 |
- | Yeah. | 36:40 |
- | And did you participate or attend | 36:42 |
other conferences? | 36:44 | |
It was just the 1993? | 36:46 | |
- | Yes. | |
I only went to this | 36:47 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Big Reimagining place | 36:50 |
- | Yes. | |
- | Because the reason I didn't participate | 36:52 |
was what we did in Reimagining was so real. | 36:56 | |
That is a reality, all these people | 37:00 | |
who persecute them, they live in delusion. | 37:03 | |
- | Yeah. | 37:06 |
- | They don't know where women | |
are now. | 37:08 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | So I said, | 37:09 |
"What he said was truth | 37:11 | |
"and I don't want to be redundant." | 37:15 | |
It is truth, so I don't have to go there | 37:18 | |
- | Yes. | 37:21 |
- | And prove it is true | |
again, again, | 37:24 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Again (laughs). | 37:25 |
- | Yes. | |
- | I just send all good energy | 37:27 |
- | Yes! | |
- | Toward those who need it. | 37:29 |
But you know, I just knew | 37:30 | |
that is a reality and that is also future. | 37:33 | |
- | Yeah. | 37:37 |
- | So I said, | |
personally, I don't need to go there | 37:40 | |
but I send the energy | 37:43 | |
and most of the work, it was like a peace movement. | 37:46 | |
I was in International Interface Peace Conference | 37:51 | |
for 20 years, | 37:55 | |
Dali Lama, Bishop Tutu, | 37:57 | |
Joan Chichester, and Mary Maguire. | 37:59 | |
- | Oh! | 38:02 |
- | These people would travel | |
all around the world (mutters), | 38:04 | |
become a peaceful presence and negotiator. | 38:08 | |
So you know they took me Chiapas, | 38:12 | |
Israel, Palestine, | 38:15 | |
North Korea, and Northern Ireland, | 38:17 | |
and Cambodia, and we have so many abbey | 38:21 | |
because we need to really keep | 38:24 | |
our peace in spite of all this tumult. | 38:28 | |
So, | 38:33 | |
I was always, always interested | 38:38 | |
in real thing. | 38:41 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | So I always went where real thing is happening. | 38:42 |
Yeah? | 38:47 | |
- | Yes, yes. | |
So how do you account for the backlash? | 38:49 | |
I mean, you got that huge backlash. | 38:51 | |
- | Yeah! | 38:53 |
- | And then Reimagining got it. | |
Do you have any ideas | 38:54 | |
on how you would account for it? | 38:56 | |
- | Yeah, I got so depressed. | 38:57 |
I hate a great therapist. | 39:00 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | I know I have this, | 39:04 |
I remember this therapy session, | 39:06 | |
I was crying and crying, | 39:08 | |
and I feel so lonely, and abandoned, | 39:10 | |
and attacked unjustly. | 39:13 | |
I have two years of intense therapy | 39:16 | |
and one day, my therapist start to cry. | 39:20 | |
- | Really? | 39:24 |
- | In therapy session. | |
She said, "Let's stop the therapy," | 39:25 | |
and she gave the most informative words | 39:29 | |
as a therapist. | 39:34 | |
You know, Hyun Kyung, the way you suffer so much | 39:36 | |
is because you are so real. | 39:39 | |
I have to have a study on you. | 39:41 | |
- | Really (laughs)? | 39:43 |
- | Yeah, | |
because you live this Asian, Confucian, | 39:45 | |
patriarchal society, and how could you | 39:49 | |
keep your realist so much? | 39:51 | |
- | Yeah. | 39:53 |
- | And T.S. Eliot said people | |
are really afraid of the real, | 39:56 | |
so it's not you who are sick, | 39:59 | |
entire system is sick, so you just accept that. | 40:02 | |
You will be all less lonely, | 40:07 | |
you will be all less controversial, | 40:09 | |
but you have to find the community of people | 40:11 | |
who can support you, | 40:13 | |
and always remember it's not you | 40:15 | |
who is sick, system is sick. | 40:19 | |
So with all your power, try to change the system | 40:21 | |
rather than try to change yourself | 40:25 | |
and adjust in this sick system. | 40:28 | |
And she started to cry, cry, cry. | 40:30 | |
- | Wow! | 40:32 |
- | That was end | |
of my term. | 40:33 | |
(interviewer and Chung laugh) | 40:35 | |
Yeah, so the personally, I have a very intense therapy | 40:37 | |
and this intense, intense mediation zen. | 40:41 | |
So you know, meditation | 40:44 | |
really calmed me down | 40:47 | |
and give me tremendous healing | 40:50 | |
and silence. | 40:55 | |
Also, all kind of progressive | 40:57 | |
communities around the world, they invited me | 41:01 | |
as one of them, indigenous people. | 41:04 | |
And also very progressive people in other religions | 41:09 | |
and peace movement, peace activist, | 41:14 | |
ecological activist. | 41:17 | |
So you know, learning from them, | 41:18 | |
working with them. | 41:21 | |
It's a real life-giving work around the world. | 41:23 | |
That's the way I overcome my backlash. | 41:27 | |
I really didn't respond to any backlash. | 41:31 | |
I didn't write the article defending myself. | 41:34 | |
I didn't do anything because for me, | 41:38 | |
this already happened and it is already done. | 41:41 | |
I didn't want to defend myself, | 41:44 | |
wasting all my time to defend. | 41:47 | |
What is so real, true to me | 41:49 | |
is let them discuss among themselves. | 41:51 | |
I have to move on, | 41:54 | |
so my moving on is peace movement, | 41:56 | |
ecological movement. | 42:00 | |
What is really happening in this world. | 42:01 | |
How to really change the world. | 42:03 | |
I want to spend my energy in that way, | 42:06 | |
so that was the way | 42:10 | |
I overcome | 42:14 | |
my backlashes. | 42:16 | |
Even once I respond to that | 42:17 | |
because this is a very Asian way, | 42:21 | |
is like Western academic way. | 42:25 | |
So somebody attack you. | 42:28 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | You said no, it's not true, it's wrong. | 42:30 |
My intention is this. | 42:32 | |
In Asia, if they say it's a futile. | 42:34 | |
The more you do, | 42:37 | |
- | Oh! | |
- | The more you elevate. | 42:38 |
- | Yeah, yeah. | |
- | Escalate that energy | 42:40 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Of backlash. | 42:42 |
- | Yes. | |
- | The best way to backlash is you don't pay any attention | 42:43 |
to this. | 42:48 | |
They call (mutters) way, you don't go directly, | 42:49 | |
you just go like waterway | 42:53 | |
and there is a real obstacle in front of you | 42:55 | |
rather than fighting. | 42:59 | |
You just flow around. | 43:00 | |
- | Great. | 43:04 |
- | So that was the way I chose. | |
- | Yeah. | 43:06 |
- | And also, | |
I didn't want to spend my precious life energy | 43:08 | |
responding to people who do not understand me | 43:12 | |
or has no intention to understand me. | 43:15 | |
- | Yes, yeah. | 43:18 |
- | So I moved on with very life-giving, | 43:20 |
world-changing movement and project. | 43:24 | |
- | Oh, this is wonderful. | 43:30 |
Do you have any thoughts about, | 43:35 | |
I know it's been a long time, | 43:37 | |
but any contributions that Reimagining made | 43:39 | |
or a legacy that it left? | 43:43 | |
- | Yes, I think women already knew | 43:46 |
what is happening | 43:48 | |
in their spiritual world, | 43:51 | |
and they can do anything they want in the church | 43:55 | |
on the surface, but inside, | 43:59 | |
they believe, and they act, | 44:02 | |
and they practice differently. | 44:04 | |
But Reimagining conference, for me, | 44:06 | |
is collectively, we affirm what we are already doing. | 44:10 | |
- | Could you say more about that? | 44:15 |
- | Yeah! | 44:17 |
- | Yeah. | |
- | Because when I went to Reimagining, | 44:19 |
nothing is new for me | 44:20 | |
because I came from Women's Theological Center | 44:22 | |
and I see, I observed what is happening | 44:25 | |
and I went through fire through Canberra, | 44:28 | |
so I know this patriarchal church, | 44:32 | |
but I also know all around the world, | 44:35 | |
people are looking for real spirituality, | 44:38 | |
real theology. | 44:42 | |
Women especially, which give life to them, | 44:43 | |
not give death to them. | 44:46 | |
Make them like a little worm, lecherous worm, a sinner, | 44:49 | |
and like half of a man | 44:54 | |
and somebody keep their silence, obedient. | 44:57 | |
They say, "Oh, what bullshit." | 45:01 | |
Even they didn't trust that, | 45:04 | |
but they prepare to trust that. | 45:06 | |
But many women doing actually | 45:09 | |
what they believe privately, | 45:16 | |
or a woman's scholars teach in their classroom. | 45:19 | |
We didn't make it very public at the time, | 45:22 | |
but Reimagining is like a public | 45:26 | |
affirmation of what we are doing quietly | 45:31 | |
in our corners. | 45:36 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | But you know, we discovered our corner | 45:40 |
basically cover all around the world! | 45:43 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 45:46 | |
We are every corner, we have everywhere! | 45:48 | |
- | Yeah! | 45:51 |
- | That is our corner, | |
everywhere, you know? | 45:53 | |
- | Mm-hmm. | 45:55 |
- | So that is the big aha! | |
You are doing that, too? | 45:59 | |
Oh, you are doing that too? | 46:01 | |
Oh, I'm not the only one. | 46:02 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | So collectively, | 46:04 |
we trust it, | 46:07 | |
what we do, and we just took up affirmation. | 46:09 | |
Yeah, this is it. | 46:13 | |
This is reality. | 46:15 | |
Yeah, we will never go back. | 46:17 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Too late! | 46:20 |
- | Yes, yes. | |
- | We already knew what is true, what is real to us. | 46:22 |
- | So where do you think Reimagining should or could go | 46:26 |
from here? | 46:31 | |
What does Reimagining look like now? | 46:32 | |
- | I think Reimagining at the time | 46:35 |
is basically really attacking, | 46:39 | |
criticizing Reimagining out of patriarchic, | 46:44 | |
like a poster patriarchy. | 46:48 | |
- | Yes, yes. | |
- | Theology. | 46:51 |
If we really reimagine, I think we have a post-empire | 46:53 | |
theology, post is anthropocentric theology. | 46:57 | |
Why we think | 47:03 | |
we are the whole earth exist for us? | 47:05 | |
What arrogance. | 47:09 | |
We see every plant and animal for our food. | 47:10 | |
Isn't that so arrogant (laughs)? | 47:15 | |
They come to be used by us, | 47:17 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | So we have to move this human centeredness, | 47:20 |
anthropocentric reality | 47:24 | |
and also, we have to imagine | 47:29 | |
wildly this, | 47:32 | |
just this very racist white supremacy | 47:34 | |
and homophobic | 47:39 | |
and all the immigrant-phoby, | 47:42 | |
and this phobia of others. | 47:46 | |
Islamic phobia, we have to go beyond all this, | 47:49 | |
so we have to go to someplace where everybody is respected, | 47:53 | |
not just human beings. | 47:58 | |
Human diversity in all forms need to be respected, | 48:00 | |
but biodiversity (laughs) | 48:04 | |
need to be respected. | 48:07 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | And we have to have this scale. | 48:10 |
You know, my friend, she is so wise | 48:14 | |
and she is like, dean of some school. | 48:18 | |
When I went to her office, | 48:21 | |
she has this picture of the universe, | 48:23 | |
and earth is not even showing. | 48:27 | |
This little dot, and she has a big arrow. | 48:29 | |
"You are here." | 48:33 | |
(interviewer and Chung laugh) | 48:35 | |
So she said, "Whatever big, | 48:36 | |
"big thing happen." | 48:40 | |
She always have a perspective. | 48:43 | |
We are here, you are here. | 48:46 | |
(interviewer laughs) | 48:48 | |
Entire earth you cannot even see, you are here. | 48:50 | |
So I see that and I feel, yeah, you are here | 48:54 | |
and that give me | 49:00 | |
tremendous freedom, | 49:04 | |
so we need to go to the end. | 49:06 | |
This is not just gender and just women's issue. | 49:09 | |
Patriarchy, like what Elizabeth Chuse Peron, | 49:13 | |
just said (mutters). | 49:17 | |
- | Right. | |
- | We really have to reimagine | 49:23 |
this post-neo-liberal, capitalist theology, | 49:27 | |
post-militaristic | 49:32 | |
major industry. | 49:36 | |
The complex post-world theology | 49:37 | |
and what post this corporate media | 49:41 | |
and all this academic industry are complex. | 49:45 | |
How much of our academic knowledge | 49:50 | |
are really critical thinking | 49:54 | |
and changing the world? | 49:56 | |
We do status reproduction, | 49:58 | |
put our young people acting normally, | 50:01 | |
so called, | 50:05 | |
and become a little bulletin | 50:07 | |
of this big rotten system. | 50:14 | |
So we really need wilder imagination | 50:18 | |
and frankly, for me, I just cannot think about | 50:24 | |
Christian theology only. | 50:28 | |
The mold and interface into religious theology, | 50:31 | |
I think we have to imagine inter-spiritual practices, | 50:34 | |
inter-spiritual imagination. | 50:41 | |
- | Could you say more about that? | 50:44 |
What that looks like? | 50:46 | |
- | Yeah, | |
because I won the Parliament award of religion. | 50:47 | |
I was so shocked. | 50:48 | |
There are more than 330 religions | 50:50 | |
represented there, | 50:53 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | And there are so many indigenous people came | 50:55 |
to talk about indigenous religions, | 51:00 | |
and I was shocked. | 51:03 | |
There were many workshops every day. | 51:06 | |
From 7 o'clock they have workshop, | 51:11 | |
so no, 7 o'clock, I roam around | 51:14 | |
to what kinds of workshops are there, | 51:17 | |
and every workshop, there were hundreds of people. | 51:19 | |
Room is whole filled. | 51:23 | |
They're all pagan workshop. | 51:26 | |
I think this is sign mother earth is cry out | 51:28 | |
this all climate change. | 51:33 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Intuitively, people are going back, | 51:36 |
earth-bound to spirituality. | 51:40 | |
That is paganism. | 51:43 | |
- | Yeah, yeah. | |
- | Mother Earth, Gaia. | 51:45 |
What Gaia is saying. | 51:47 | |
- | Right. | |
- | So I am really interested in | 51:49 |
inter-spiritual engagement, | 51:53 | |
inter-spiritual transformation of the self, | 51:57 | |
world, and earth. | 52:01 | |
That's why I'm teaching this mysticism | 52:04 | |
and revolutionary change this semester, | 52:08 | |
but I'm not just teaching | 52:11 | |
this, you know, | 52:16 | |
Christian (mutters), or Thomas Morton. | 52:19 | |
I also teach Rumi, Gandhi, | 52:24 | |
or Alice Walker, | 52:29 | |
and many. | 52:34 | |
Tina Hahn. | 52:36 | |
How their deep connection | 52:37 | |
with the real made them revolutionary fighters | 52:40 | |
like Dorothy Julie. | 52:44 | |
So my class become totally | 52:48 | |
interfaith and inter-spiritual, | 52:52 | |
and I treat them like radical woman, | 52:56 | |
peace activist, like code pink. | 52:59 | |
And I want my student account the entire world | 53:03 | |
in my class, not just Christian tradition. | 53:09 | |
Yeah, it cannot be possible | 53:12 | |
- | Yeah. | |
- | In this ascent as globalized world. | 53:14 |
You just cannot have theology | 53:18 | |
for your own community | 53:21 | |
because especially Christian community still | 53:24 | |
are hegemonic community. | 53:28 | |
Many places in the world and world culture, | 53:32 | |
they define what is truth. | 53:36 | |
- | Right. | |
- | What is right lifestyle | 53:40 |
and they put so much standard now, | 53:42 | |
but you cannot do that kinds of Christianity anymore. | 53:45 | |
You have to teach Christianity | 53:50 | |
in such a way | 53:52 | |
that your student can be a good neighbor | 53:54 | |
to your Muslim, Hindu, atheist | 53:58 | |
classmate or neighbors in your workplace, | 54:02 | |
in your intermarriage. | 54:08 | |
That is reality of the world, | 54:11 | |
is refuge soldiers | 54:14 | |
are plodding everywhere. | 54:16 | |
How could you life without knowing them? | 54:19 | |
How could you make a theology and not think about them? | 54:23 | |
And if you have this very insular anchor | 54:27 | |
of kind of exclusive community, | 54:31 | |
you are no use, | 54:38 | |
of no use. | 54:39 | |
You want to be of no use theologeon (laughs)? | 54:41 | |
- | You're right. | 54:44 |
So if I could ask, | 54:45 | |
what would you say is at the heart of, | 54:47 | |
what does it mean to be Christian? | 54:49 | |
- | For me? | 54:51 |
- | What is it, | |
yes, yeah. | 54:53 | |
- | I think to be Christian, | |
for me, | 54:55 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | Is belief in the vision of Jesus Christ, | 54:57 |
which is feast of equals, | 55:01 | |
the vision of a kingdom of God | 55:04 | |
is really feast of radical feast | 55:07 | |
of radical equal equals. | 55:11 | |
Table, kitchen table community. | 55:15 | |
We share food totally equally. | 55:20 | |
Doesn't matter you are gay, you are trans, | 55:24 | |
you are handicap. | 55:27 | |
In that feast, you are equal in God's eye, | 55:28 | |
in the sacredness, you have a feast. | 55:31 | |
It's not torture chamber. | 55:34 | |
It's not asceticism. | 55:37 | |
It's the feast, feast! | 55:38 | |
First miracle | 55:41 | |
(interviewer laughs) | ||
of Jesus is making water into wine! | 55:43 | |
Jesus came to this world give life | 55:48 | |
in His fullness. | 55:50 | |
- | Yes. | |
- | I'm total believe full of life in His fullness. | 55:52 |
To do that, | 55:57 | |
first requirement is how you become a good neighbor, | 55:59 | |
a golden rule. | 56:04 | |
If every religion just keep golden rule, | 56:08 | |
do others as you want to be treated by others, | 56:13 | |
to not harm if you don't want to be harmed. | 56:17 | |
Just golden rule. | 56:21 | |
It's just, get to the basic! | 56:23 | |
Yeah, I think a vision of Jesus was that, | 56:27 | |
- | Yeah. | 56:30 |
- | Very radical vision. | |
And also, because I was a teacher world religion courses, | 56:31 | |
what I think Jesus uniqueness | 56:37 | |
is not Jesus's only son of God. | 56:40 | |
We are all sons of God, | 56:43 | |
but we are Muslim and Hindu, | 56:45 | |
but uniqueness of Jesus for me, | 56:48 | |
after studying so many world religion, | 56:51 | |
is still preferential for the poor and oppressed. | 56:54 | |
He always give a focus on them first. | 57:00 | |
Other religions teach very universal love, | 57:04 | |
but Jesus was very peculiar in that sense. | 57:09 | |
I think that is uniqueness of Jesus, preferential | 57:13 | |
for the poor, crushed, oppressed. | 57:17 | |
So I never give up my Christianity | 57:21 | |
because I'm a big believer of liberation of oppressed, | 57:27 | |
and marginalized, and crushed in this world, | 57:31 | |
crucified ones. | 57:36 | |
That's why I can never leave Christianity | 57:38 | |
even I am a Buddhist Dharma teacher because Buddhism | 57:40 | |
do not talk that explicitly about crucified ones. | 57:44 | |
Yeah. | 57:49 | |
- | Yes. | |
Is there anything that we haven't discussed | 57:52 | |
that you would like to add? | 57:54 | |
- | No! | 57:56 |
If you want to ask some more questions, | 57:57 | |
I'm willing to answer, | 57:59 | |
but the Reimagining was a good moment of women | 58:03 | |
fighting against patriarchy | 58:09 | |
and wildly reimagining. | 58:13 | |
Not just reacting against patriarchy theology, | 58:16 | |
but real constructive moment of reimagining what is possible | 58:21 | |
for woman, what is theology which is relevant | 58:26 | |
to woman, so it is a real good beginning. | 58:29 | |
Now we have to go forward. | 58:31 | |
- | Yes. | 58:34 |
- | Wider, deeper, | |
that our inclusivity become radical inclusivity | 58:36 | |
of intersectionality of everything. | 58:41 | |
- | Yes. | 58:43 |
- | And also, | |
we have to pay attention to the cries of mother earth, yeah. | 58:46 | |
That is my imagination, this reimagining, | 58:54 | |
so I do reimagining every moment | 58:56 | |
everywhere where I go, | 58:59 | |
where I am. | 59:04 | |
- | Thank you. | 59:06 |
This has been such a gift. | 59:07 | |
Thank. | 59:08 |
Item Info
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