Chung, Hyun Kyung / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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And we are now recording.

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All right, good.

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Yes, we did it.

So if you could just say your name.

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Yes.

0:08

My name is Chung Hyun Kyung.

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Thank you.

0:12

And are you lay or clergy?

0:13

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I'm a layperson, yes.

0:15

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Yeah.

And what is your denominational affiliation, if any?

0:17

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Presbyterian Church of Korea.

0:22

Yes.

0:25

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Okay, thank you.

When and where were you born?

0:27

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1956, May 15th.

0:30

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Okay.

0:33

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So next year, I will be 60!

0:34

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Oh my goodness (laughs)!

0:36

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I don't believe it.

I feel like 33, literally.

0:38

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I think you might look like

0:40

33, too.

0:42

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Oh, thank you!

You're so kind.

0:44

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Seriously, it's true!

It's true (laughs).

0:45

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But I said,

"This is not true," but it is happening.

0:48

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Oh (laughs)!

0:49

Oh, and where you born?

0:53

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I was born in Seoul, Korea.

0:55

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Oh, okay.

0:57

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Actually, Gwangju, Korea,

which is revolutionary city of Korea,

0:59

but my parents just want to put Seoul,

1:03

kept the city.

1:06

Say my record is South Korea.

1:07

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Is that right?

1:09

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But actual birthplace

is Gwangju.

1:13

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And did they want to put Seoul

1:14

because it was a revolutionary city?

1:15

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Maybe!

1:17

Because they passed away, I never have a chance

1:19

to ask.

1:22

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Sure.

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But you know, when I look back,

1:24

I'm very proud to be born

1:26

in the revolutionary city.

1:28

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Yes.

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Yes.

1:31

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Oh yes.

(Chung laughs)

1:32

When and how did you first become aware

1:34

of feminist theology?

1:36

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Feminist theology,

1:38

when I first came to USA to study

1:42

1981, I was in Claremont at the time.

1:47

My fundamentalist husband,

1:53

he was educational minister in the church

1:57

and I was always educational minister

2:01

in another church, but they insisted

2:04

that I have to be with my husband.

2:07

That the only condition he can get a job.

2:10

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Really?

2:13

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And once I can get

to his church, I don't have job anymore.

2:15

I have to volunteer my work.

2:18

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Really?

2:21

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Yeah.

Assistant to

2:23

educational minister's wife

2:25

is like you buy one, you get one free.

2:27

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That was the church's requirement?

2:30

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Yeah!

2:32

And you know,

2:33

and I grew up

2:37

in a very liberal ecumenical church in Korea,

2:38

so that was my first experience,

2:42

daily experience of fundamentalist church

2:45

and the sermon,

2:51

invisibility of women,

2:52

everything made me so miserable.

2:55

Women cannot preach in the church.

2:59

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I'm sorry, which church is this?

3:02

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It's Presbyterian Church.

3:04

Korean Presbyterian Church is conservative church.

3:07

Is immigrant church in Los Angeles area

3:11

and (laughs) once,

3:14

only once a year woman can preach,

3:17

which is mother's day.

3:20

It's not in the main worship service,

3:22

but afternoon gathering.

3:25

She can give a talk, but not in the pulpit.

3:27

She will have to come down in the audience place

3:31

and she just read the microphone.

3:34

She can have witness for her face.

3:36

But at the time,

3:40

this very intellectual women,

3:42

she is a pharmacist, graduated from my same university,

3:45

like EWHA Women's University,

3:49

which is like Harvard Radcliffe in Korea.

3:51

So this smart woman

3:54

have this (laughs) once in a year

3:58

opportunity of women speaking.

4:01

She said when she first married,

4:04

she fought with her husband all the time

4:09

because he is a marcher, he just ordering her around,

4:12

so they put every day.

4:16

Then one day in their fighting,

4:19

her husband threw the knife at her,

4:21

kitchen knife at her

4:24

and it barely missed her and it stuck on the kitchen wall.

4:26

She said at that very moment

4:32

it was a revelation moment.

4:35

She finally understand the will of God

4:38

because in the Bible, there is many verses,

4:42

like when Israel was arrogant,

4:46

God used Babylons in other country to make her humble.

4:48

She thought her husband

4:53

is an instrument of God because she is so arrogant,

4:56

God used her husband

5:00

to make her humble.

5:03

And from that moment, she really believed that why

5:06

she has to believe no wife speak.

5:09

Obedient to husband.

5:12

Women be quiet in the church.

5:14

Everything Bible was true,

5:16

but she questioned about it,

5:19

so she was not a really humble one.

5:21

That's why her husband used her.

5:24

It's like total of oppression.

5:27

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Yes!

5:30

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And though,

the amazing thing was,

5:31

it was a big church, about 1,000 people

5:34

and 90% of them are women.

5:37

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Really?

5:41

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They so loud and clear

are men when she said this,

5:43

and the only one totally shocked.

5:46

I couldn't stay there in this madness.

5:48

This is attempted murder on women.

5:53

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Yeah!

5:56

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And even at the time,

I just said clearly in the name of God,

5:58

in the name of Jesus, in the name of Bible,

6:01

they really justify violence against women.

6:06

She could have been killed right there.

6:09

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Yeah.

6:12

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And everybody

is praising her, accepting her destiny,

6:13

her face being humble

6:16

and all this 900 women said loud yes.

6:17

It's actually, I went bathroom

6:21

and started bawling.

6:22

That was the beginning of my feminist

6:24

(interviewer laughs)

6:25

theology.

I said,

6:27

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Ah!

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And I was so shocked, I couldn't go to worship service.

6:28

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Yes.

6:31

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And we drove home

and my husband say, "Why you

6:34

"went out?

6:35

"Why this great worship service?"

6:37

I say, "This is attempted murder

6:39

"and I could not say their hallelujah and amen!"

6:42

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Yeah.

6:45

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And I think

this church is mad.

6:46

This women are crazy!

6:47

And you know, he looked at me with utter seriousness

6:49

and said, "You know,

6:53

"all these women are women of faith.

6:55

"Because you don't have a faith,

6:57

"that's why you feel that way.

7:00

"Everybody think you are crazy."

7:02

That's it, that is the end.

7:05

I got so depressed from that day.

7:07

I couldn't get out of my bed.

7:10

I don't want to go to that church,

7:12

so I become so sick, you know?

7:14

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Wow.

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And that time,

7:17

Letty Russell came to Claremont

7:18

to give a lecture on feminist theology,

7:22

partnership in God

7:27

and I didn't know what is feminist theology.

7:31

So I was just all depressed.

7:35

I just went to listen to lecture.

7:38

Everything she said was so right.

7:40

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Yeah.

7:43

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So right.

So it's almost like,

7:46

did you see this movie, When Harry Met Sally?

7:47

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Yes (laughs).

7:51

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She is having

this orgasm and all this.

7:52

All the grandmother said, "What 'til it's coming."

7:56

Say, "What do you want?"

8:00

"I want it exactly like that."

8:01

(interviewer laughs)

8:02

I say it's like

Harry and Sally, that orgasm moment for me!

8:05

So right after the lecture, I went to Letty Russell

8:08

and I said, "I don't know how you do what you do,

8:12

"but I want to do exactly what you, so tell me,

8:17

"teach me what to do,"

8:21

and Letty said, she has this very interesting smile

8:23

on her face and she said, "If you want to do

8:27

"theology like me,

8:31

"there is the first experiment

8:33

"feminist school is forming in Boston.

8:36

"The name is Woman's Theological Center.

8:40

"All faculty are feminist theologians.

8:44

"It's women-only school and you can come too.

8:46

"Ah, that's good if you want to do theology like me."

8:51

So that evening, I went home and I said,

8:54

"If you come with me or not, I'm going to Boston."

8:58

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Wow!

9:03

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"I'm quitting this school and I'm going to go to Boston."

9:05

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Ah!

9:08

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"You know,

"if you want to divorce me, fine,

9:11

"but if I stay in your church and if I

9:14

"just studied these dead white men,"

9:17

and it was very interesting.

9:21

When I first went to Claremont,

9:23

every time I went to class,

9:26

I have just excruciating stomachache.

9:29

And as soon as I got out of the class,

9:35

I'm fine (laughs).

9:38

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Really?

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Yeah, every time.

9:40

Every day

9:42

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Oh no!

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I have a stomachache,

9:43

so I said maybe I'm not cut to be a scholar.

9:44

How come when I go in a classroom,

9:47

I'm always sick?

9:50

When I look back, I think I was sick,

9:52

but understudy

9:55

none of the writings are about my reality.

9:57

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Yeah.

10:02

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It's all about

how to get European men's reality,

10:04

nothing to do with my reality.

10:06

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Yes.

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And so, you know, I wanted to be so successful,

10:09

I wanted to be a good student,

10:13

but my body revolted it.

10:15

Then I went to Women's,

10:17

so I told that and I just moved to Boston.

10:20

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I assume that he did not support this decision.

10:25

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Well, you know, actually,

10:28

he did

10:30

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He did?

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Because I was very sick.

10:32

I couldn't get out

10:33

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Oh.

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Of my bed, so he knew.

10:35

He knew this emergency if he did not support me,

10:37

I might commit suicide

10:39

or I might go to mental hospital,

10:42

I become manic depressive, something is going to happen.

10:45

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Yeah.

10:49

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My body,

I couldn't get out of bed.

10:51

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Oh.

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So I went to, after that shocking experience

10:54

in the church,

10:57

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Yes.

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And I went to Boston and I was in Woman's still.

10:59

I was the first to graduate.

11:03

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Really?

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Of Woman's, first year

11:05

and first graduated.

11:07

Really founding student.

11:10

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Then.

11:12

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I'm sorry,

what year was this?

11:15

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It was '83.

11:16

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Okay.

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And '83, '84.

11:19

Everything they say is like honey and milk.

11:23

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Oh!

11:27

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At the time,

11:28

in that area, Rosemary Ruth was teaching.

11:31

Mary Daily was teaching,

11:36

Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza teaching.

11:38

I took everyone's class and also,

11:40

Letty Rosemary is coming all the time to teach

11:43

and I was totally

11:47

everyday, I become healthier and healthier.

11:50

And even I look at the mirror, I say,

11:54

"Oh, I have become so beautiful!"

11:56

I couldn't believe how beautiful I have become.

11:59

It was that before I was so tired

12:02

and I was so depressed, I looked like old woman.

12:05

But in my 20s, when I went to

12:10

Women's Theological Center,

12:13

everyday I feel like my brain is downloading

12:16

this gigabyte knowledge from.

12:22

(interviewer laughs)

It's like everyday is enlightenment

12:25

or like Mary Daily's class,

12:28

Rosemary Ruth's class,

12:30

Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza's class

12:31

and Letty Russell's class.

12:33

It's like, I am a mega downloading every day.

12:36

(interviewer laughs)

12:40

Not only downloading,

I become so

12:42

intelligent, I just feel I am so intelligent.

12:45

(interviewer laughs)

12:48

Everything they teach

make so much sense!

12:50

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Yeah.

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Everything speak to my heart, body,

12:52

my whole sickness is gone,

12:56

my stomachache is gone, my depression is gone.

12:58

I become so healthy, I'm full of energy,

13:02

my face become so beautiful suddenly.

13:05

My friends came for a visit

13:08

and they said, "What happened to you?

13:10

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Oh.

13:13

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"You look like

"a completely different person," you know?

13:14

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Wow!

13:16

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And, "I don't know what it is,

13:18

"but something is going on with you.

13:20

"You are like,"

13:22

"What do I look?"

13:24

And they actually used that,

13:25

"You look like a goddess!"

13:27

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Really, oh.

13:29

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Yeah, my friend.

"You're radiating, you're so confident!

13:31

"You so spacious and generous,

13:34

"I don't know what it is,

13:38

"but something is going on with you."

13:39

Yeah, something.

13:41

It completely change my life.

13:43

For the first time in my life,

13:46

I have a clear mission why I am here,

13:48

how I want my life,

13:52

how I want to live my life,

13:54

how I want to contribute to the humanity,

13:57

and how well I could do it.

14:01

Just everyday, I am full of vision, and dream,

14:05

and happiness, and, you know, it's amazing.

14:09

That one year completely changed my life

14:13

because you know,

14:16

even now, my union is pretty progressive,

14:19

but comparing to what I did in Woman's Theological Center

14:25

is such a combination of education.

14:28

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Really?

14:30

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Because basically,

first months, we sit down

14:33

with the faculty members

14:36

and we just talk about what we want to learn,

14:38

what we want to know about.

14:44

The second months, we make a curriculum together,

14:47

we change curriculum 10 times.

14:50

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Really?

14:52

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On the way,

you re-change things.

14:54

Then all of us,

14:55

we have to work in real place,

14:58

women's place of reality, 15 hours of fieldwork.

15:01

15 hours a week, so I worked refuge woman,

15:06

and some women work with homeless woman.

15:09

Some women work the violence against women,

15:13

like shelters.

15:16

So all of us are working in a real women's issue place.

15:17

Then we bring that experience to our classroom

15:22

in relation to our own experience.

15:25

You know, I am, in a way, a refuge too.

15:28

I was in radical student movement.

15:31

I was (mutters) at torture,

15:34

then in prison, the student movement.

15:37

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Oh!

15:39

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Then,

you know, I had to leave my country to start

15:41

the liberation theology.

15:44

If we read good theories, we went to jail at that time,

15:46

so I identify myself with refuge woman so much.

15:51

So it's like a liberation,

15:56

feminist liberation theology mastered.

15:58

We start with a proxy, real.

16:01

Then we have a sociologist come,

16:04

professor of social analysis.

16:07

So we did a deep feminist analysis

16:10

on feminist theory analysis.

16:12

Then we do feminist theological reflection.

16:15

Real liberation method.

16:20

Then later,

16:22

we complete everything with a feminist ritual.

16:25

That is really formative, theological formation for me.

16:29

I feel so lucky.

16:34

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Oh!

16:36

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This is the way

every theological student should study,

16:37

but I think American seminaries are part of it all,

16:41

this academic excellence and some kind of captivity

16:46

of still very European university model.

16:50

Hey, this is 21st century.

16:56

We get to have a real radical pedagogy.

16:58

We are based on this power of prayers,

17:01

Brazilian revolutionary educator,

17:05

pedologically oppressed

17:09

and cultural action for freedom.

17:10

We study all this education as the revolutionary act.

17:14

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Yeah.

17:19

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That was my beginning

of feminist theology,

17:21

so literally,

17:23

feminist theology saved me.

17:25

If I did not meet feminist theology,

17:27

I may end up as a replacement or hospital (laughs).

17:30

I was so angry, I maybe kill somebody.

17:35

You know, prison.

17:38

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Yes.

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Or I have some cancer

17:40

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Yeah.

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Or something.

17:43

Coming to suicide in the tomb.

17:45

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Yeah.

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But this replace.

17:47

I could end, especially women who are wildly creative

17:49

and authentic.

17:53

You just, you know,

17:55

I didn't know I was that kind of person,

17:57

but my body told me

18:00

this is not true.

18:03

This is not talking about yourself.

18:05

Why you spend all this money and time in your youth

18:08

studying about all dead white men

18:12

who are your oppressor?

18:14

And all, they made all this division

18:18

of your country, all this war and colonialism

18:23

and you sit down and you're spending all your youth,

18:27

and time, and money to study about them?

18:29

And nothing about your reality is in that classroom.

18:33

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Right.

18:38

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But at that time, I didn't have this kind

18:40

of consciousness fully

18:42

because, you know, I am a foreign student

18:44

who couldn't speak English

18:47

and you know, I have to just catch up

18:49

every class to get a scholarship because I cannot

18:52

have a loan as a foreigner,

18:56

so if I don't get a good grade,

18:58

I couldn't get a scholarship and I had to be pushed away,

19:01

so I study, study, study (mutters) and Tillig

19:05

and you know, all these people.

19:09

Process theology.

19:11

Process theology is a little bit better,

19:12

but still very white Hadian

19:14

and so I just got so sick.

19:17

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Yes.

19:21

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So feminist theology really, literally saved me

19:23

and still, not all

19:28

this post-modern feminist stories,

19:31

I am very much fundamental feminist liberation theologian

19:37

from today because that message

19:42

is still working better for 2/3rd of women,

19:46

Asia, Africa, Latin America.

19:49

Down to earth, get to the point.

19:52

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Yes.

19:55

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Yeah.

-

Yeah.

19:57

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So still I am,

after all this post-modern,

19:58

post-theorist, I am still fundamentally

20:00

feminist liberation theologian, yeah.

20:04

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That was really powerful.

20:08

Thank you.

20:10

(Chung and interviewer laugh)

If we could switch to Reimagining.

20:13

And what was your relationship to the Reimagining community?

20:16

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Oh, you know,

20:20

I was invited because of my speech at Canberra,

20:23

just the report that I gave a keynote speech

20:27

at Seventh Assembly of World Conservative Church

20:31

is 1991, Canberra, Australia.

20:35

They ask me to give

20:39

Asian third world

20:43

feminist liberation (mutters)

20:46

perspective on holy spirit,

20:50

so I did it

20:53

and it become so controversial.

20:55

You know, there is a story of ecumenical theology book

20:59

and I just laugh out loud

21:03

because they said my Canberra speech

21:06

is the most controversial speech

21:09

in Christian history, as they said (laughs).

21:13

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Oh (laughs)!

21:17

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So I said, "Wow!"

21:19

I love it.

21:20

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Yeah.

-

That (mutters).

21:21

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Ah.

21:25

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Publication.

I said, "Oh, my God!

21:27

"This is the most controversial speech

21:28

"in Christian history?"

21:31

And I heard later, after my speech

21:34

because they ask me to do it,

21:37

I bring all aboriginal dancers,

21:39

all this naked body

21:44

with red rain clothing and body painting,

21:46

didgeridoo and dance naked and dance.

21:49

And this Korean immigrant doing shamanistic ritual with me

21:53

and the drums, and dance, and sing,

21:56

and naked body!

21:59

What else do you ask for feminist theologeon

22:01

for feminist theology bring

22:05

our sensuality, sexuality, emotion,

22:07

body, back to theologist spirituality.

22:10

So you know, they asked for it and I did it.

22:14

Church is completely divided.

22:18

They called me.

22:21

I am a heretic, witches, and I come into the sin

22:23

of apostacy.

22:26

So next day, I was

22:28

Times, New York Times, Le Monde,

22:30

(mutters), Guardian, everywhere.

22:33

One night, overnight, famous (laughs).

22:36

-

How did you feel or react to that?

22:42

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I didn't know.

22:45

They ask me to do it,

22:46

so I just do.

22:47

You know, because I was very innocent at the time.

22:49

I just got out of the Union,

22:52

I went back to Korea, become a very

22:54

baby assistant professor

22:57

since I am not in ordination tract.

23:01

Actually, I was ordination tract,

23:04

but I finished all my ordination process.

23:06

And last question is whether you believe Jesus

23:10

is your own savior, only savior.

23:13

I never thought Jesus was the only savior,

23:16

so I said no.

23:19

And if I had to say yes, I don't want that kinds

23:22

of ordination, so there goes the end of my ordination.

23:27

-

Really?

23:31

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I was very glad

I didn't go into

23:33

this ordained ministry at this moment

23:36

because as a layperson, I could have

23:40

a more prophetic voice.

23:43

-

Right.

23:45

-

So you know, they asked, so I did.

23:46

But they couldn't take it.

23:48

And when I came back to Korea,

23:50

even fundamentalist, they send me death threat.

23:53

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Oh, my goodness.

23:59

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Yeah, and my husband took side with them,

24:00

the fundamentalist people.

24:03

And they say, "You don't know what holy spirit is,

24:07

"so you have to repent, and you have to receive Holy Spirit,

24:09

"and you have to speak in tongues," and all this things.

24:13

"And you have to come back to me

24:16

"and become obedient wife,"

24:19

so no way I could do it.

24:21

-

Right?

24:24

-

So Canberra made me

divorce, actually.

24:25

Then I was so

24:29

depressed again because now I have a quiet life.

24:32

Suddenly, I am on the world spotlight.

24:38

At that time, literally, I got 10 invitation a day

24:41

from 10 different countries.

24:45

-

Really?

24:47

-

Every day.

Yeah.

24:49

-

Oh.

-

It was like that next three years

24:50

and next 10 years, you know.

24:53

But what Canberra did is, it opened the door to me.

24:55

-

Yes.

24:59

-

I traveled

to almost 80 countries in the world.

25:01

-

Really?

25:03

-

I meet

human community

25:04

because I was so weird Christian,

25:07

I got invitation from Buddhist,

25:10

Islam, Hindu, and Marxist, psychiatrist,

25:13

mythologist, and feminist group,

25:17

radical feminist group, post-fem.

25:21

It's just indigenous group around the world

25:24

because they think I am a kind of theologeon

25:28

they can really dialogue, they can trust.

25:32

-

Yes.

25:34

-

So it break my personal life

25:36

and I had to divorce, but it also opened me

25:39

to entire life, entire world,

25:43

not just Christian community,

25:46

entire community of humanity.

25:48

-

Yes.

25:52

-

So,

it was amazing experience

25:55

and Reimagining,

25:57

the reason they invited me as such a young scholar

26:00

because of what I did in Canberra

26:03

-

Yes.

26:05

-

And they want to hear

what is happening after Canberra

26:08

because at the time still, so many international magazines,

26:09

theological magazines, they have a debate

26:15

on my theology in the name of gospel

26:19

and culture.

26:23

The only question is, I use

26:24

a Buddhist shamanistic symbol

26:26

to do presentation of Asian feminist Holy Spirit

26:30

and they actually, I heard one conservative church

26:36

send my speech to some religious scholar in France

26:39

whether this is a Christian speech.

26:44

And he said, "This is thoroughly, thoroughly

26:47

"Christian speech."

26:50

-

Really?

-

Yeah.

26:52

-

Oh!

-

And they called me syncretist.

26:54

Well you know, I feel so wrongly accused

26:56

because Christmas, Jesus was not born Christmas.

27:00

-

Yes.

27:05

-

And Easter,

Jesus was not resurrected.

27:07

All, this is all pagan holidays!

27:09

-

Right.

27:12

-

And they used Plato, Aristotle,

27:13

all the philosophical system worldview,

27:16

create holiest dualistic hierarchical Christianity

27:20

and no place in the Bible

27:24

when Jesus was resurrected there,

27:27

so rabbit and eggs all around,

27:29

colored eggs.

27:32

And when Jesus was born, there is Rudolph Red Nose Reindeer

27:33

and Christmas tree

27:38

(interviewer laughs)

with the light!

27:40

And this is all pagan thing!

27:41

But the interesting thing is,

27:43

when I tried to symbolize Christianity

27:45

from my own cultural symbols

27:48

and cosmology like Buddhist, shamanistic cosmology,

27:52

they think this is heretics and syncretism?

27:57

When they do it, they think it's also though.

28:00

So I said,

28:03

"You called me."

28:04

I made this, you know,

28:06

world (mutters) because they attacked me so much.

28:08

"You are right, I am a syncretist,

28:12

"but you are a synchrotist too.

28:17

"Only difference is, I know I am a synchrotist.

28:20

"You don't know you are a synchrotist

28:23

"because you are in the center of power.

28:25

-

Yeah.

28:29

"Because you normalize

"your culture, your cosmology

28:31

"as given."

28:33

-

Yeah.

-

It's never given to me!

28:35

And we are in a post-colonial generation

28:37

and what Jesus said,

28:41

"Don't try to put new wine

28:43

"in the old wineskin.

28:46

"That's exactly what you tried to do.

28:48

"Me, you tried to put me

28:51

"in all the wineskin of your paradigms and categories.

28:52

"I am a new wine."

28:57

-

Yes.

-

"And don't make your pouch

28:59

"just the skin burst out."

29:02

And exactly holy spirit is wild.

29:04

You don't know where she comes from

29:07

and where she is blowing.

29:09

It's exactly

29:11

the direction of a Holy Spirit.

29:13

So I was very, very controversial.

29:15

I was still reimagining.

29:18

I was in all kinds

29:21

of theological journals.

29:25

And even with constant maturity,

29:29

it becomes so controversial they made five year

29:31

serious study all around the world

29:35

project to call the gospel and culture.

29:39

-

Really?

29:43

-

Yeah,

because of my contribution.

29:44

-

Yes.

-

Because Asia, Africa, Latin-American churches,

29:48

they so resonate with what I did,

29:52

but the European church has become so angry about it

29:54

and at the time, they all accuse me as a syncretist.

29:59

You know, five year study made it every clear,

30:04

every Christianity is a syncretic Christianity

30:08

and that's the only way it is relevant,

30:12

but interesting thing is,

30:15

I started the whole thing,

30:18

what is five year study in all around the world,

30:19

they never invite me once.

30:23

-

Really?

30:25

-

Because so many awful theologians said

30:26

if they invite me, they would not come.

30:29

I think because I was really center

30:34

of controversy reimagine.

30:38

-

Yes.

30:40

-

It is totally reimagine

30:42

Christian theology from feminist Asian

30:44

third-world perspective,

30:48

so they want me to come and to talk about my experience.

30:50

-

You know, I just have to ask.

30:55

When did you start being able to do this?

30:57

Was it at Boston where you started

31:00

doing this kind of

31:02

-

Yeah!

-

Theology and integrating

31:04

-

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

-

And doing this post-colonial.

31:06

-

So Woman's Theological Center.

31:08

-

Is that where

31:09

it started to happen?

31:10

-

Really gave me

permission

31:11

-

Yes.

do whatever I want in my wildest imagination.

31:12

It started at Woman's Theological Center

31:15

and when I came to Union,

31:18

I have Beverly Harris and James Kahn,

31:21

and Phyllis Drivel, Tom Driver,

31:24

Dorothy Julie.

31:26

They are great, imaginative professors

31:28

and Union really gave me a lot of room to,

31:32

the Woman's Theological Center I land a tour.

31:36

-

Yes.

31:40

-

Union pushed me

in relation against this traditional theology,

31:42

how far I can push.

31:46

So in world conservative church,

31:48

the whole question is in relation to gospel and culture.

31:51

Gospel is relation to culture.

31:57

How much you can incorporate,

32:00

how much is the culture,

32:04

how much is the gospel?

32:05

And so my whole thing is,

32:07

who has a final criteria?

32:10

How much is okay and how much is not okay?

32:13

It's not European theological tradition say it.

32:18

Every community have to make their own decision

32:22

how much they can incorporate

32:26

their traditional religions, and spirituality,

32:29

and worldview and categories, and cosmology

32:33

into their theology.

32:36

It's community decide, not you!

32:39

You know?

32:42

So it's a whole (mutters) Christian.

32:43

Who defines what is truth

32:45

-

Yes.

-

And who defines who transmit this history.

32:47

What is transmittable history

32:51

and what is discarded exactly.

32:55

So I raised the question to them

32:57

and Canberra really made me more radical

33:04

because you are so marked as a witch,

33:08

heretic, and sinner of apostasy.

33:12

I said, "Oh, what the hell?"

33:15

(interviewer laughs)

33:17

Now I thought

it was like a big scarlet letter A,

33:19

Adulteress.

33:22

-

Yeah (laughs).

-

Apostasy, A.

33:24

Apostasy speak A.

33:25

I said, "Okay, I have a big A in my chest."

33:27

-

So you're free.

33:32

-

I'm free!

-

Yeah.

33:34

-

I will do whatever I want

in the wildest way, yeah?

33:36

And it is still continuing

33:39

now I become a Buddhist dharma teacher,

33:42

so I become officially (mutters),

33:45

and also I did this very deep work,

33:49

holotropic breath work, so I am.

33:53

-

I'm sorry, what is that?

33:57

-

Holotropic breath work.

33:58

Transpersonal psychology.

34:00

-

Okay.

-

So I become a certified therapist

34:02

and spiritual director.

34:07

And it's really based on subconsciousness

34:10

and I want to stay a divine feminine,

34:14

very feminine quality

34:18

of unconsciousness,

34:20

so you know, I'm really, really

34:23

able of being different way

34:28

and actually, Canberra did it.

34:31

If you push the person to the corner

34:34

or to the degree they have no option but attack

34:38

(Chung and interviewer laugh)

34:41

or no option but just to be who they are,

34:43

-

Yes.

34:47

-

So it is

a disguised blessing.

34:50

It was like a curse.

34:52

I was in therapy,

34:54

I had to do this intense meditation because suffering

34:56

was so great,

35:00

-

Yes.

-

But it opened so many doors.

35:02

I never expected me

35:05

in my lifetime, I would become a Buddhist dharma teacher,

35:08

but Canberra actually did it.

35:13

I was so attacked by Christian fundamentalists,

35:15

I need escape and that escape

35:20

was zen meditation, total silence,

35:23

sitting and crying.

35:26

And I did it just to save me from suffering,

35:29

but it take me more than saving me from my suffering.

35:35

It totally opened a whole (mutters) of emptiness

35:42

and mysticism

35:47

which I never knew that deeply,

35:49

so now I'm teaching mysticism

35:52

and revolutionary change.

35:54

Now I really get to my (mutters)

35:56

and medieval theologian.

36:00

God is pure emptiness.

36:03

I didn't have a clue what they are talking about.

36:06

God is pure emptiness?

36:09

What does it mean?

36:11

But zen really taught me

36:13

what is pure emptiness, you know?

36:16

So poor person

36:23

of faith, everything happening to you

36:25

is a good thing in the end (laughs).

36:29

-

Well you know, it was the backlash

36:32

against Reimagining that lead to the formation

36:34

of the community.

36:36

-

Wow!

-

So there's a little bit of a parallel there.

36:38

-

Yeah.

36:40

-

And did you participate or attend

36:42

other conferences?

36:44

It was just the 1993?

36:46

-

Yes.

I only went to this

36:47

-

Yes.

-

Big Reimagining place

36:50

-

Yes.

-

Because the reason I didn't participate

36:52

was what we did in Reimagining was so real.

36:56

That is a reality, all these people

37:00

who persecute them, they live in delusion.

37:03

-

Yeah.

37:06

-

They don't know where women

are now.

37:08

-

Yeah.

-

So I said,

37:09

"What he said was truth

37:11

"and I don't want to be redundant."

37:15

It is truth, so I don't have to go there

37:18

-

Yes.

37:21

-

And prove it is true

again, again,

37:24

-

Yes.

-

Again (laughs).

37:25

-

Yes.

-

I just send all good energy

37:27

-

Yes!

-

Toward those who need it.

37:29

But you know, I just knew

37:30

that is a reality and that is also future.

37:33

-

Yeah.

37:37

-

So I said,

personally, I don't need to go there

37:40

but I send the energy

37:43

and most of the work, it was like a peace movement.

37:46

I was in International Interface Peace Conference

37:51

for 20 years,

37:55

Dali Lama, Bishop Tutu,

37:57

Joan Chichester, and Mary Maguire.

37:59

-

Oh!

38:02

-

These people would travel

all around the world (mutters),

38:04

become a peaceful presence and negotiator.

38:08

So you know they took me Chiapas,

38:12

Israel, Palestine,

38:15

North Korea, and Northern Ireland,

38:17

and Cambodia, and we have so many abbey

38:21

because we need to really keep

38:24

our peace in spite of all this tumult.

38:28

So,

38:33

I was always, always interested

38:38

in real thing.

38:41

-

Yes.

-

So I always went where real thing is happening.

38:42

Yeah?

38:47

-

Yes, yes.

So how do you account for the backlash?

38:49

I mean, you got that huge backlash.

38:51

-

Yeah!

38:53

-

And then Reimagining got it.

Do you have any ideas

38:54

on how you would account for it?

38:56

-

Yeah, I got so depressed.

38:57

I hate a great therapist.

39:00

-

Yes.

-

I know I have this,

39:04

I remember this therapy session,

39:06

I was crying and crying,

39:08

and I feel so lonely, and abandoned,

39:10

and attacked unjustly.

39:13

I have two years of intense therapy

39:16

and one day, my therapist start to cry.

39:20

-

Really?

39:24

-

In therapy session.

She said, "Let's stop the therapy,"

39:25

and she gave the most informative words

39:29

as a therapist.

39:34

You know, Hyun Kyung, the way you suffer so much

39:36

is because you are so real.

39:39

I have to have a study on you.

39:41

-

Really (laughs)?

39:43

-

Yeah,

because you live this Asian, Confucian,

39:45

patriarchal society, and how could you

39:49

keep your realist so much?

39:51

-

Yeah.

39:53

-

And T.S. Eliot said people

are really afraid of the real,

39:56

so it's not you who are sick,

39:59

entire system is sick, so you just accept that.

40:02

You will be all less lonely,

40:07

you will be all less controversial,

40:09

but you have to find the community of people

40:11

who can support you,

40:13

and always remember it's not you

40:15

who is sick, system is sick.

40:19

So with all your power, try to change the system

40:21

rather than try to change yourself

40:25

and adjust in this sick system.

40:28

And she started to cry, cry, cry.

40:30

-

Wow!

40:32

-

That was end

of my term.

40:33

(interviewer and Chung laugh)

40:35

Yeah, so the personally, I have a very intense therapy

40:37

and this intense, intense mediation zen.

40:41

So you know, meditation

40:44

really calmed me down

40:47

and give me tremendous healing

40:50

and silence.

40:55

Also, all kind of progressive

40:57

communities around the world, they invited me

41:01

as one of them, indigenous people.

41:04

And also very progressive people in other religions

41:09

and peace movement, peace activist,

41:14

ecological activist.

41:17

So you know, learning from them,

41:18

working with them.

41:21

It's a real life-giving work around the world.

41:23

That's the way I overcome my backlash.

41:27

I really didn't respond to any backlash.

41:31

I didn't write the article defending myself.

41:34

I didn't do anything because for me,

41:38

this already happened and it is already done.

41:41

I didn't want to defend myself,

41:44

wasting all my time to defend.

41:47

What is so real, true to me

41:49

is let them discuss among themselves.

41:51

I have to move on,

41:54

so my moving on is peace movement,

41:56

ecological movement.

42:00

What is really happening in this world.

42:01

How to really change the world.

42:03

I want to spend my energy in that way,

42:06

so that was the way

42:10

I overcome

42:14

my backlashes.

42:16

Even once I respond to that

42:17

because this is a very Asian way,

42:21

is like Western academic way.

42:25

So somebody attack you.

42:28

-

Yeah.

-

You said no, it's not true, it's wrong.

42:30

My intention is this.

42:32

In Asia, if they say it's a futile.

42:34

The more you do,

42:37

-

Oh!

-

The more you elevate.

42:38

-

Yeah, yeah.

-

Escalate that energy

42:40

-

Yeah.

-

Of backlash.

42:42

-

Yes.

-

The best way to backlash is you don't pay any attention

42:43

to this.

42:48

They call (mutters) way, you don't go directly,

42:49

you just go like waterway

42:53

and there is a real obstacle in front of you

42:55

rather than fighting.

42:59

You just flow around.

43:00

-

Great.

43:04

-

So that was the way I chose.

-

Yeah.

43:06

-

And also,

I didn't want to spend my precious life energy

43:08

responding to people who do not understand me

43:12

or has no intention to understand me.

43:15

-

Yes, yeah.

43:18

-

So I moved on with very life-giving,

43:20

world-changing movement and project.

43:24

-

Oh, this is wonderful.

43:30

Do you have any thoughts about,

43:35

I know it's been a long time,

43:37

but any contributions that Reimagining made

43:39

or a legacy that it left?

43:43

-

Yes, I think women already knew

43:46

what is happening

43:48

in their spiritual world,

43:51

and they can do anything they want in the church

43:55

on the surface, but inside,

43:59

they believe, and they act,

44:02

and they practice differently.

44:04

But Reimagining conference, for me,

44:06

is collectively, we affirm what we are already doing.

44:10

-

Could you say more about that?

44:15

-

Yeah!

44:17

-

Yeah.

-

Because when I went to Reimagining,

44:19

nothing is new for me

44:20

because I came from Women's Theological Center

44:22

and I see, I observed what is happening

44:25

and I went through fire through Canberra,

44:28

so I know this patriarchal church,

44:32

but I also know all around the world,

44:35

people are looking for real spirituality,

44:38

real theology.

44:42

Women especially, which give life to them,

44:43

not give death to them.

44:46

Make them like a little worm, lecherous worm, a sinner,

44:49

and like half of a man

44:54

and somebody keep their silence, obedient.

44:57

They say, "Oh, what bullshit."

45:01

Even they didn't trust that,

45:04

but they prepare to trust that.

45:06

But many women doing actually

45:09

what they believe privately,

45:16

or a woman's scholars teach in their classroom.

45:19

We didn't make it very public at the time,

45:22

but Reimagining is like a public

45:26

affirmation of what we are doing quietly

45:31

in our corners.

45:36

-

Yes.

-

But you know, we discovered our corner

45:40

basically cover all around the world!

45:43

(interviewer laughs)

45:46

We are every corner, we have everywhere!

45:48

-

Yeah!

45:51

-

That is our corner,

everywhere, you know?

45:53

-

Mm-hmm.

45:55

-

So that is the big aha!

You are doing that, too?

45:59

Oh, you are doing that too?

46:01

Oh, I'm not the only one.

46:02

-

Yeah.

-

So collectively,

46:04

we trust it,

46:07

what we do, and we just took up affirmation.

46:09

Yeah, this is it.

46:13

This is reality.

46:15

Yeah, we will never go back.

46:17

-

Yes.

-

Too late!

46:20

-

Yes, yes.

-

We already knew what is true, what is real to us.

46:22

-

So where do you think Reimagining should or could go

46:26

from here?

46:31

What does Reimagining look like now?

46:32

-

I think Reimagining at the time

46:35

is basically really attacking,

46:39

criticizing Reimagining out of patriarchic,

46:44

like a poster patriarchy.

46:48

-

Yes, yes.

-

Theology.

46:51

If we really reimagine, I think we have a post-empire

46:53

theology, post is anthropocentric theology.

46:57

Why we think

47:03

we are the whole earth exist for us?

47:05

What arrogance.

47:09

We see every plant and animal for our food.

47:10

Isn't that so arrogant (laughs)?

47:15

They come to be used by us,

47:17

-

Yeah.

-

So we have to move this human centeredness,

47:20

anthropocentric reality

47:24

and also, we have to imagine

47:29

wildly this,

47:32

just this very racist white supremacy

47:34

and homophobic

47:39

and all the immigrant-phoby,

47:42

and this phobia of others.

47:46

Islamic phobia, we have to go beyond all this,

47:49

so we have to go to someplace where everybody is respected,

47:53

not just human beings.

47:58

Human diversity in all forms need to be respected,

48:00

but biodiversity (laughs)

48:04

need to be respected.

48:07

-

Yes.

-

And we have to have this scale.

48:10

You know, my friend, she is so wise

48:14

and she is like, dean of some school.

48:18

When I went to her office,

48:21

she has this picture of the universe,

48:23

and earth is not even showing.

48:27

This little dot, and she has a big arrow.

48:29

"You are here."

48:33

(interviewer and Chung laugh)

48:35

So she said, "Whatever big,

48:36

"big thing happen."

48:40

She always have a perspective.

48:43

We are here, you are here.

48:46

(interviewer laughs)

48:48

Entire earth you cannot even see, you are here.

48:50

So I see that and I feel, yeah, you are here

48:54

and that give me

49:00

tremendous freedom,

49:04

so we need to go to the end.

49:06

This is not just gender and just women's issue.

49:09

Patriarchy, like what Elizabeth Chuse Peron,

49:13

just said (mutters).

49:17

-

Right.

-

We really have to reimagine

49:23

this post-neo-liberal, capitalist theology,

49:27

post-militaristic

49:32

major industry.

49:36

The complex post-world theology

49:37

and what post this corporate media

49:41

and all this academic industry are complex.

49:45

How much of our academic knowledge

49:50

are really critical thinking

49:54

and changing the world?

49:56

We do status reproduction,

49:58

put our young people acting normally,

50:01

so called,

50:05

and become a little bulletin

50:07

of this big rotten system.

50:14

So we really need wilder imagination

50:18

and frankly, for me, I just cannot think about

50:24

Christian theology only.

50:28

The mold and interface into religious theology,

50:31

I think we have to imagine inter-spiritual practices,

50:34

inter-spiritual imagination.

50:41

-

Could you say more about that?

50:44

What that looks like?

50:46

-

Yeah,

because I won the Parliament award of religion.

50:47

I was so shocked.

50:48

There are more than 330 religions

50:50

represented there,

50:53

-

Yeah.

-

And there are so many indigenous people came

50:55

to talk about indigenous religions,

51:00

and I was shocked.

51:03

There were many workshops every day.

51:06

From 7 o'clock they have workshop,

51:11

so no, 7 o'clock, I roam around

51:14

to what kinds of workshops are there,

51:17

and every workshop, there were hundreds of people.

51:19

Room is whole filled.

51:23

They're all pagan workshop.

51:26

I think this is sign mother earth is cry out

51:28

this all climate change.

51:33

-

Yes.

-

Intuitively, people are going back,

51:36

earth-bound to spirituality.

51:40

That is paganism.

51:43

-

Yeah, yeah.

-

Mother Earth, Gaia.

51:45

What Gaia is saying.

51:47

-

Right.

-

So I am really interested in

51:49

inter-spiritual engagement,

51:53

inter-spiritual transformation of the self,

51:57

world, and earth.

52:01

That's why I'm teaching this mysticism

52:04

and revolutionary change this semester,

52:08

but I'm not just teaching

52:11

this, you know,

52:16

Christian (mutters), or Thomas Morton.

52:19

I also teach Rumi, Gandhi,

52:24

or Alice Walker,

52:29

and many.

52:34

Tina Hahn.

52:36

How their deep connection

52:37

with the real made them revolutionary fighters

52:40

like Dorothy Julie.

52:44

So my class become totally

52:48

interfaith and inter-spiritual,

52:52

and I treat them like radical woman,

52:56

peace activist, like code pink.

52:59

And I want my student account the entire world

53:03

in my class, not just Christian tradition.

53:09

Yeah, it cannot be possible

53:12

-

Yeah.

-

In this ascent as globalized world.

53:14

You just cannot have theology

53:18

for your own community

53:21

because especially Christian community still

53:24

are hegemonic community.

53:28

Many places in the world and world culture,

53:32

they define what is truth.

53:36

-

Right.

-

What is right lifestyle

53:40

and they put so much standard now,

53:42

but you cannot do that kinds of Christianity anymore.

53:45

You have to teach Christianity

53:50

in such a way

53:52

that your student can be a good neighbor

53:54

to your Muslim, Hindu, atheist

53:58

classmate or neighbors in your workplace,

54:02

in your intermarriage.

54:08

That is reality of the world,

54:11

is refuge soldiers

54:14

are plodding everywhere.

54:16

How could you life without knowing them?

54:19

How could you make a theology and not think about them?

54:23

And if you have this very insular anchor

54:27

of kind of exclusive community,

54:31

you are no use,

54:38

of no use.

54:39

You want to be of no use theologeon (laughs)?

54:41

-

You're right.

54:44

So if I could ask,

54:45

what would you say is at the heart of,

54:47

what does it mean to be Christian?

54:49

-

For me?

54:51

-

What is it,

yes, yeah.

54:53

-

I think to be Christian,

for me,

54:55

-

Yes.

-

Is belief in the vision of Jesus Christ,

54:57

which is feast of equals,

55:01

the vision of a kingdom of God

55:04

is really feast of radical feast

55:07

of radical equal equals.

55:11

Table, kitchen table community.

55:15

We share food totally equally.

55:20

Doesn't matter you are gay, you are trans,

55:24

you are handicap.

55:27

In that feast, you are equal in God's eye,

55:28

in the sacredness, you have a feast.

55:31

It's not torture chamber.

55:34

It's not asceticism.

55:37

It's the feast, feast!

55:38

First miracle

55:41

(interviewer laughs)

of Jesus is making water into wine!

55:43

Jesus came to this world give life

55:48

in His fullness.

55:50

-

Yes.

-

I'm total believe full of life in His fullness.

55:52

To do that,

55:57

first requirement is how you become a good neighbor,

55:59

a golden rule.

56:04

If every religion just keep golden rule,

56:08

do others as you want to be treated by others,

56:13

to not harm if you don't want to be harmed.

56:17

Just golden rule.

56:21

It's just, get to the basic!

56:23

Yeah, I think a vision of Jesus was that,

56:27

-

Yeah.

56:30

-

Very radical vision.

And also, because I was a teacher world religion courses,

56:31

what I think Jesus uniqueness

56:37

is not Jesus's only son of God.

56:40

We are all sons of God,

56:43

but we are Muslim and Hindu,

56:45

but uniqueness of Jesus for me,

56:48

after studying so many world religion,

56:51

is still preferential for the poor and oppressed.

56:54

He always give a focus on them first.

57:00

Other religions teach very universal love,

57:04

but Jesus was very peculiar in that sense.

57:09

I think that is uniqueness of Jesus, preferential

57:13

for the poor, crushed, oppressed.

57:17

So I never give up my Christianity

57:21

because I'm a big believer of liberation of oppressed,

57:27

and marginalized, and crushed in this world,

57:31

crucified ones.

57:36

That's why I can never leave Christianity

57:38

even I am a Buddhist Dharma teacher because Buddhism

57:40

do not talk that explicitly about crucified ones.

57:44

Yeah.

57:49

-

Yes.

Is there anything that we haven't discussed

57:52

that you would like to add?

57:54

-

No!

57:56

If you want to ask some more questions,

57:57

I'm willing to answer,

57:59

but the Reimagining was a good moment of women

58:03

fighting against patriarchy

58:09

and wildly reimagining.

58:13

Not just reacting against patriarchy theology,

58:16

but real constructive moment of reimagining what is possible

58:21

for woman, what is theology which is relevant

58:26

to woman, so it is a real good beginning.

58:29

Now we have to go forward.

58:31

-

Yes.

58:34

-

Wider, deeper,

that our inclusivity become radical inclusivity

58:36

of intersectionality of everything.

58:41

-

Yes.

58:43

-

And also,

we have to pay attention to the cries of mother earth, yeah.

58:46

That is my imagination, this reimagining,

58:54

so I do reimagining every moment

58:56

everywhere where I go,

58:59

where I am.

59:04

-

Thank you.

59:06

This has been such a gift.

59:07

Thank.

59:08

Chung, Hyun Kyung

Transcript

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Sallie Bingham Center for Women's History & Culture