Tollefson, Rebecca

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-	Rebecca, thank you so much	0:01
	for your willingness to be interviewed.	0:03
	And if you could please tell me your full name.	0:06
-	Reverend Rebecca Tollefson.	0:10
-	And could you spell Tollefson?	0:14
-	It's T, as in tomato	0:17
	O-L-L-E-F, like in farm	0:19
	and then son, S-O-N.	0:24
-	Great, I like that t as in tomato. That's great.	0:27
	Um you are clergy.	0:30
	(laughing)
	You are clergy.	0:33
-	Yes.	0:34
-	In the Presbyterian Church USA, correct?	0:35
-	Correct.	0:39
-	And when and where were you born, Rebecca?	0:39
-	I was born in Princeton, New Jersey.	0:43
-	Hmm.	0:45
-	On March 25, 1952.	0:46
-	Okay. Thank you.	0:51
	And where did you go to school?	0:53
-	Are you referring to seminary?	0:57
-	Yes.	1:01
-	Okay, Louisville Presbyterian.	1:03
-	Okay.	1:05
-	Seminary. Louisville, Kentucky.	1:06
-	Thank you.	1:08
	And what work or ministry were you doing	1:10
	at the time of Re-Imagining?	1:12
-	I was the associate for women employed	1:15
	by the church in the women's ministry unit for the PCUSA.	1:17
-	Great and could you say a little bit	1:22
	about what that involved.	1:24
	What that work involved.	1:26
-	I had a wonderful committee across the United States.	1:31
	I think there were maybe, gosh, I wanna say 15 of us.	1:35
-	Wow.	1:40
-	We worked on issues concerning	1:42
	women's church administrators,	1:44
	church educators, clergy women.	1:48
	We looked at pay equity.	1:50
	We looked at	1:55
	the lack of women	1:57
	as head of staff for churches.	1:58
	I'm just trying to think.	2:10
	We really worked more on	2:11
	collaborating with other pieces	2:15
	of the women's ministry unit.	2:18
	When I first came, Maryann Harvey assigned me	2:31
	to the general assembly writing team	2:34
	on the sexual misconduct policy for the denomination.	2:37
-	Oh.	2:40
-	And so I explained to her ever since	2:41
	that I'm still the key point person here	2:45
	in the Presbyterian.	2:47
	(laughing)	2:49
-	For that issue?	2:52
-	Well, yeah. And now instead it's called sexual misconduct.	2:55
	Well there's that policy but it's called	2:59
	selfie boundaries now and I appreciate that,	3:03
	more positive aspect of	3:06
	how do we better care for ourselves	3:10
	and our congregations.	3:13
-	Yes. Yes.	3:14
	And what work or ministry did you do	3:16
	after Re-Imagining, Rebecca?	3:18
-	After that, then with downsizing on national depth,	3:22
	I was able to get a position with Call Referral Services	3:28
	in Louisville, still on national stats.	3:33
	And in that, I worked with all	3:36
	the personal information forms	3:37
	that contain true the denomination line	3:39
	people seeking other positions.	3:45
-	Okay.	3:49
	And your current position is...	3:50
-	I'm the executive director	3:54
	of the Ohio Counsel of Churches.	3:56
-	Great. Thank you so much.	3:58
	Rebecca, how and when did you	4:01
	first become aware of feminist theology?	4:03
-	You know I was looking at that question	4:06
	and I'm trying to remember.	4:08
	I'm thinking maybe in the mid '70's	4:10
	with the	4:14
	International Women's Year.	4:18
-	Okay.	4:19
-	In 1975.
	And both my mom and I became part of	4:22
	consciousness awaring groups.	4:27
	So I'm thinking there was some of that.	4:32
	I don't think there was much in seminary.	4:35
	I don't remember that.	4:42
	Seminary was 35 years ago	4:43
	so I remember 75 but not 35 years ago.	4:45
	(laughing)	4:47
-	Well obviously that was really important.	4:50
	I'm curious, what do you remember about that?	4:52
	About that international year	4:54
	and the consciousness raising groups.	4:56
	Any memories stand out?	4:58
-	Oh yeah. I think it was pivotal for my own self-awareness	5:00
	and development	5:04
	as becoming independent	5:07
	and seeking to do the ways	5:09
	that I as a female wanted.	5:12
	Became aware of my rights.	5:15
	And I think that was the real grounding	5:18
	for where I am today in terms of my own personhood.	5:22
	And how I've been able to maneuver,	5:28
	how I've been able to develop relationships	5:32
	and be in different positions.	5:35
-	That's fascinating.	5:39
	Could you just say a little bit more	5:40
	about how that happened?	5:42
	How the group or the international year	5:43
	developed that in you?	5:45
-	Well,	5:48
	I remember I graduated from college in '74	5:51
	and	5:55
	I then spent time in Grand Teton National Park.	5:57
	And then came back to my parental home	6:03
	and was just kinda sittin' around	6:06
	and my dad said "you need to leave".	6:08
	(laughing)	6:11
	Seriously.	6:14
	So I moved to Des Moines from Charlotte, Iowa.	6:15
	So it was not far.	6:18
-	Yeah.	6:20
-	But being on my own,	6:21
	my mom was a strong individual.	6:29
-	Yeah.	6:32
-	Again, very much a mentor I would say and an example.	6:33
-	Yeah.	6:37
-	And when she started in one of these circles	6:38
	in our hometown, I was still there	6:44
	and I joined her with that.	6:47
	And all I remember is that sense that women have rights too.	6:51
	And, yeah.	6:59
	And there was,	7:01
	well I won't say	7:09
	because that would not be confidential then.	7:10
-	Yeah. Good.	7:12
-	There were certain people at that time	7:14
	could care less about women's issues.	7:22
-	Yes.	7:24
-	And so this was just a real growing time.	7:25
	And when I went to seminary in '78,	7:29
	I got known as this uppity woman.	7:35
-	Oh.	7:38
-	Well, it was okay.	7:41
-	Yeah.	7:42
-	I was sticking up and at that time,	7:43
	the Presbyterian church had come out with a new hymnal.	7:47
	No, we didn't have a hymnal	7:51
	but we instituted inclusive language.	7:53
	And I was the one who you know,	7:57
	you've got to use inclusive language	7:59
	you know when it wasn't used.	8:03
	I remember my second year, somebody said,	8:08
	who came to seminary, I was told to be aware of you.	8:12
	And I said "really?"	8:17
	(gasps)
	(laughing)	8:18
-	Wow.	8:18
-	Yeah, watch out for her. Yeah, I didn't put up with crap.	8:20
-	Yeah.	8:26
-	So I think that International Women's Year	8:30
	just kinda set me on a path where I continued to learn.	8:33
	Where I was given opportunities	8:38
	to learn outside the box, if you will.	8:42
	I look back and I think	8:52
	that was really the pivotal time for me.	8:53
-	Uh-hmmmm. And I love it that it was you and your mother.	8:56
	And your mother was kind of the mentor for this.	9:00
-	Well, she went to the Re-Imagining conference in '93.	9:03
-	Oh she did?	9:07
-	She did and she also had her best friend	9:09
	from high school meet her there.	9:12
	So that was really neat.	9:16
-	Yes. You know I notice there's a beeping sound	9:19
	on the phone.	9:22
	Do you know what that's from, Rebecca?	9:22
-	Let me go back to speaking like this.	9:28
	It could be incoming calls.	9:30
-	Oh okay. Sure. Okay.	9:32
-	Let me try this.	9:35
-	Okay.	9:36
	(laughing)	9:36
	Good.	9:37
	Thank you.	9:38
-	Yes.	9:39
-	Good.	9:40
	So we're moving to Re-Imagining now.	9:41
	Could you tell me about what led	9:44
	to your initial involvement in Re-Imagining?	9:46
	Rebecca?	9:51
	Rebecca?	9:54
	Rebecca?	10:00
	Have I lost you?	10:01
	Hello?	10:08

-	And, Rebecca Tollefson, Reverend Rebecca Tollefson,	0:02
	we're back again.	0:05
	We were talking about your initial involvement	0:06
	in Re-imagining.	0:08
-	Well initially I was on the staff with the	0:10
	Minnesota staff of Churches with Family Hill.	0:13
	And, until there was the initial conversations	0:15
	around the table, that I was part of with Sally	0:21
	and Mary Jane Souter,	0:25
	and a few others there	0:31
	in terms of how might we, what might we do with the decades	0:34
	for solidarity with women from the world council	0:40
	of Churches.	0:46
	So in that process then I, got the position to	0:48
	move to (mumbles).	0:53
	So for me, most of our women's ministry staff,	0:54
	if not all, went to the Re-imagining conference.	1:00
	I think there were about 20 of us on national staff	1:06
	that went.	1:09
	So it wasn't a sense of do you want to go,	1:10
	I'm saying this for Marian Lumby, it was a sense that we	1:15
	are participating.	1:20
	We have given a significant amount of money	1:22
	from the Presbyterian Church to this event,	1:26
	and for me it was like coming round circles, you know.	1:29
	It was great to go back.	1:33
-	Rebecca, I would love to hear about what it was like	1:37
	serving on the Minnesota Council of Churches,	1:40
	as when this was being planned.	1:42
	What do you recall about how that evolved.	1:44
	What that process was like and how it evolved?	1:45
-	Well I was part time the director of the Commission	1:48
	on faith and order and I was serving part time	1:51
	at the Presbyterian Church in Stillwater.	1:54
	And so, I was working with Margaret J Thomas,	1:58
	as well, and I just remember,	2:03
	Sally and I shared a cubicle wall.	2:09
	(laughs)	2:12
	And they weren't all the way up to the ceiling,	2:15
	so you could hear what was going on,	2:17
	on the other side of the wall.	2:19
	And I think it was (coughs) excuse me,	2:23
	just the sense of a part of my responsibility	2:27
	to go, as faith and order, to go to these	2:32
	conversations and participate, and see what	2:36
	would be happening, and contribute and that type of thing.	2:41
	So that's what I remember.	2:46
-	Do you have any specific memories of your what you thought	2:48
	as this was developing the plan for the larger conference?	2:53
-	Oh I was excited and believed in it.	2:59
	I'm very ecumenical.	3:02
	So when we talked about the world community in a sense,	3:05
	that was very exciting to me.	3:09
	And some of the names like (speaks foreign language)	3:13
	and others, I had no clue as to who they were.	3:16
	So I was excited to learn, you know, and to be exposed	3:20
	if you will, to new thoughts and beliefs.	3:28
-	Yes.	3:33
	One other question before we move on.	3:34
	Unfortunately as you know Sally Hill has passed away.	3:35
	She was instrumental in this.	3:39
	Do you have any memories of her?	3:41
	She was so important to this story.	3:43
-	Oh yes.	3:45
	A bold, courageous woman.	3:48
	I would say.	3:52
	And very much,	3:55
	wanting to work outside the box, you know.	3:59
	At that time also, clergywomen, we were kind of,	4:03
	pigeon-holed if you will.	4:10
	And I remember a time in that Presbytery where woman	4:11
	up for Ordination, was just, what's the word I want,	4:16
	treated very shabbily on the floor,	4:25
	in terms of questions being asked of her.	4:29
	And it was just like excruciating.	4:32
	And we said never again will we let this	4:34
	happen to another woman.	4:36
	So I think there were those dynamics,	4:38
	as well as like, and sally, you know,	4:41
	was older and wiser than me, and I think she had	4:45
	opportunities because of her, well,	4:51
	just she had opportunities	4:56
	that helped her expand her own viewpoint.	5:01
	And so it was the sense of listening to her,	5:06
	and thinking and being challenged I would say.	5:12
	You know and Liz Heller, do you know Liz?	5:20
-	I don't, no.	5:22
-	Liz Heller was, we called her the	5:24
	the mother of the Clergywomen in the Presbyterian	5:27
	and I think she's still living.	5:32
	She was at Westminster Presbyterian Church there.	5:34
	And there's I think called Heller Commons,	5:37
	which is an art gallery or something.	5:40
	She was a collector of art, incredible art.	5:44
	But she was another person that,	5:48
	well, why not type of thing.	5:50
	(laughs)	5:53
	And I think Sally,	5:55
	Sally and Liz, I don't know if they were similar age	5:56
	or not, but Sally was just full of just	6:02
	"well, if we don't try, why not."	6:07
	What's going to happen?	6:09
	That's the thing.	6:11
	We were all excited I think.	6:12
	Just the sense of a women's conference,	6:15
	and on this deal.	6:21
-	This is great.	6:26
	I did want to go back to hear a little bit more,	6:27
	because I think it helps to set the context.	6:28
	Could you say a little bit more about what you meant	6:31
	when you said women were pigeonholed and treated shabbily?	6:32
	What would happen?	6:36
-	Well there were more questions asked	6:38
	of women candidates if we're approved	6:42
	on the floor Presbytery	6:47
	then we're cleared for ordination,	6:48
	in the Presbyterian Church, and so it was,	6:53
	I would say some disrespect.	6:56
	Questions asked of women that wouldn't	7:00
	have been asked of men.	7:02
	So that type of thing, and it's just like what?!	7:06
-	Like what kind of questions were you,	7:09
	would be asked?	7:10
-	Oh gosh, I don't remember.	7:13
-	That's fine.	7:16
	It's been a long time.	7:16
	(laughs)	7:18
-	It's been a long time, is right.	7:19
-	Yes, but that's an important, for the context.	7:20
	So you went to the '93 conference, and your mom did,	7:23
	and I'd just love to hear about	7:27
	your memories of that conference.	7:29
-	Oh, incredibly positive, uplifting,	7:32
	energizing.	7:37
	One woman who was at my round table, and we are	7:40
	still in contact with each other.	7:44
-	Really, and you met there?	7:46
-	Yep.	7:48
	I know it was an incredibly positive experience	7:54
	for my mom as well.	7:59
	Yeah.	8:02
	But I just remember, listening to these	8:04
	women from different points of view and different cultures	8:08
	and thinking oh my goodness this is incredible.	8:12
	And it was, you know the,	8:16
	the milk and honey,	8:26
	I loved it.	8:27
	It was you know women were doing theology instead	8:29
	of doing what men usually have done through the centuries,	8:32
	and to me it was like this is just empowering.	8:37
	It's helping my own self-esteem,	8:42
	how wonderful to be given this opportunity	8:47
	to hear from this breadth of theologians	8:50
	and then common people, sitting around the table	8:54
	like me, and forming friendships,	8:58
	and engaging in the exercises, and having	9:02
	conversations.	9:06
	It was powerful.	9:09
	Incredibly powerful.	9:11
	And to this day I say well, I'm an original	9:14
	re-imaginer.	9:18
	(laughs)	9:19
	I don't care what other people think.	9:20
	It was the best that's ever happened.	9:22
-	Are there any, you mentioned the milk and honey ritual,	9:25
	are there any other specific things that you recall	9:31
	that were powerful for you?	9:34
-	No, you know, I was going to pull out	9:37
	my re-imaging stuff for you,	9:41
	and I just didn't do it.	9:42
-	That's fine.	9:44
-	No, I just, yeah.	9:46
-	Obviously, the impact of it was huge.	9:49
-	Exactly.	9:53
	And positively, not negative.	9:55
-	Right.	9:57
	Well I think that probably brings us to the backlash,	9:58
	which I know you were aware of.	10:01
	First of all, did it affect you directly?	10:02
-	Yes.	10:05
-	In what way?	10:06
-	I was, I got hate mail.	10:07
	And all of us, national staff, got hate mail.	10:10
	And we started coming together once a week,	10:15
	to support each other.	10:18
	And I remember one time I came in and I was just,	10:20
	furious.	10:24
	And Eunice Posic, who'd also gone,	10:25
	I told her of my experience and she said,	10:32
	so what'd you do with the letter?	10:34
	And I said I tore it up into little shreds.	10:35
	And Eunice is older than me, and she said	10:38
	"Rebecca let me suggest something."	10:42
	Okay.	10:45
	"I've begun writing back to these people,	10:47
	finding something to affirm in what they're writing."	10:50
-	Wow.	10:55
-	So I did that.	10:57
	And it was helpful.	10:58
	Instead of just being torn apart.	10:59
	I mean the hate mail was hate.	11:02
	And we even got it from inside the building.	11:04
	From co-workers.	11:08
-	Really?	11:09
-	So, it was just very painful.	11:10
	It was ostracizing and there's still	11:12
	some people that I do not think of highly.	11:17
	Because of their narrow,	11:22
	I would say, narrow understanding,	11:24
	of what happened, and their fear of women doing their	11:27
	own theology.	11:31
	And I just don't have time for it.	11:34
	It was painful.	11:42
	It was very painful.	11:43
	And one of my dear, dear friends	11:44
	left the Presbyterian church because she was in	11:46
	the section of Washington State,	11:49
	and her other clergy were just	11:54
	incredibly nasty and vicious to her,	11:59
	and so she left the Church.	12:01
	And there were others who really suffered from it.	12:05
	I know one woman on my, women who	12:07
	played by the church committee,	12:10
	said she would never participate	12:13
	in anything on the national level	12:14
	with the Presbyterian Church again.	12:17
	Backlash was damaging in many, many people's lives.	12:20
-	You said it was hate mail.	12:31
	And some of it you may not want to repeat,	12:33
	and you may not remember the details,	12:35
	but what kind of charges or were in those letters.	12:37
	What were people saying?	12:42
-	Oh I think you know, generally it was the sense	12:44
	that you went to this conference and you should have,	12:47
	once there was something happening, or somebody	12:52
	speaking at xy and z, you should have gotten	12:56
	up and left the table.	12:58
	And you have no, you need to leave the national staff.	13:01
	You are a person that should not be serving in such a way.	13:08
	Things like that.	13:14
	Is what I remember.	13:15
-	And I am interested that you wrote back to people.	13:19
	What kind of things could you affirm in their letters?	13:21
	Do you recall what you would write back?	13:23
-	You know, maybe just off the top of my head,	13:25
	I would say I sought to affirm that it was	13:29
	a very important conference.	13:32
	(laughs)	13:34
	I mean I tried to use their words,	13:36
	and just say you know, it was a life-changing	13:41
	opportunity, and it did expand my own awareness.	13:46
	And I appreciate your concern for the Church	13:52
	and you know I didn't preach to them.	14:01
	It was a sense of trying to find something	14:02
	that was positive to say I appreciate	14:07
	your concern in writing, thank you.	14:10
-	Did you ever hear back again	14:13
	from any of the people you wrote to?	14:16
-	I don't think so.	14:19
-	As you well know, Maryann Lundy was forced to resign	14:24
	do you have any memories about that, or your reaction?	14:29
-	Oh yeah,	14:33
	and she and I are still very close.	14:34
	That was just,	14:37
	I think that was done out of fear.	14:43
	I think it was done out of embarrassment.	14:47
	I mean she did not undermine anybody.	14:57
	She is one of the most creative and committed people	15:02
	I know.	15:05
	And this was an incredible opportunity.	15:08
	I know for her (mumbles) it was joy-filled	15:10
	as well.	15:12
	And that was like, I'm trying to remember.	15:14
	I think many of us gathered around her	15:21
	at her home after that.	15:23
	'Cause we were just shocked.	15:27
	And we were really pissed off.	15:28
	I mean, what?!	15:33
	I don't know, it was just,	15:37
	it was damaging for her, incredibly.	15:44
	Her soul suffered, and still is suffering	15:47
	in many, many ways.	15:51
	And she may have said that to you.	15:52
-	It sounds as if, and you can tell me if this is correct,	15:57
	it sounds as if you and the women's division	16:00
	really supported each other.	16:02
-	Yes.	16:05
	Yes.	16:06
	But it was also others in other departments that had gone.	16:06
	And you know, as I said, there were 20 of us.	16:12
	We supported each other.	16:15
	And that's what it's all about.	16:20
	I don't think men understand that.	16:27
	I know women we operate differently.	16:29
	And so this was just so threatening	16:33
	to the national staff, and to others I the Church	16:36
	that it seemed like the only way then to handle it,	16:44
	was to get rid of one of the pivotal persons.	16:47
	Which was Maryanne.	16:50
-	You know you've used the terms threatening	16:54
	and fear and embarrassment, could you,	16:56
	how do you account for this?	16:58
	What was the fear and the threat all about?	17:00
-	Women doing their own theology.	17:03
	We weren't doing western Patriarchal theology.	17:07
	We were doing something totally new and creative.	17:11
	We were outside the box.	17:16
-	Yeah.	17:20
	One other question that occurred to me,	17:21
	were you at the '94 General Assembly at all,	17:23
	or do you remember anything about it,	17:27
	the report, the votes, anything about that	17:29
	related to Re-imagining.	17:31
-	Yeah I'm trying to think that was in Wichita.	17:32
	And one of my college friends was a pastor,	17:39
	is a pastor and he was on, he was a delegate.	17:45
	And he and I talked a little bit,	17:53
	but he was totally against Re-imagining.	17:55
	So at that point I didn't have the skills	17:59
	to figure out you can have figure out how do I talk	18:01
	to you, even though you're crazy or stupid, you know.	18:04
	So it was, I think many of us were sitting there	18:08
	and listening and just going really?	18:12
	I mean it was hurtful again.	18:16
	The language.	18:18
	How people were talking.	18:21
	Their conclusions were totally off the wall.	18:24
	At that time we had the Presbyterian laymen.	18:28
	I don't know if that's been mentioned to you.	18:31
	It was the more conservative journals from the	18:33
	Presbyterian Church, and if any of us were interviewed	18:40
	it was, and we were put in, comments were put	18:45
	into this Presbyterian magazine, it was	18:49
	not recorded correctly.	18:53
	Even, I mean, it was like,	18:57
	I didn't say that.	18:58
	Why did they change my words?	19:00
	And the right, in the church, was very, very strong	19:08
	at that time and so it was to me appalling.	19:15
	It was sad, it was discouraging,	19:21
	and it's like gee, what do we do now type of thing.	19:27
	I mean it was like pointing the finger and saying	19:31
	you did that.	19:34
	You should never have done that.	19:37
	Don't do it again.	19:40
-	Now Rebecca, you stayed in the Church,	19:45
	even at the national level,	19:47
	how were you able to do that?	19:49
-	Well, I struggled.	19:52
	I really struggled.	19:56
	I think I'm so deeply ingrained.	19:59
	My father's a Presbyterian minister,	20:00
	my mother was a ruling elder in the Presbyterian church.	20:03
	Very strong and committed to the Presbyterian church.	20:05
	It was my DNA, my identity.	20:10
	And I think there were many of us,	20:16
	in talking to each other we tried to figure out,	20:18
	so do we stay in the church,	20:24
	do we leave?	20:25
	What do we do?	20:27
	And I think there was support.	20:31
	My mom, of course was supportive,	20:32
	my dad was supportive,	20:34
	I didn't have a mom and dad	20:38
	that differed on things like this.	20:41
	My dad's living has been always	20:44
	incredibly open, and my mom as well.	20:46
	So, they know I struggled, and I knew	20:52
	that my mom struggled too.	20:56
	We were all disgusted with the Church.	20:58
	So I think it was a sense,	21:02
	why I stayed was I had support.	21:03
	And I was able to work through things,	21:07
	where my friend in Washington State did not have	21:09
	the support around her, at all.	21:12
-	Wow, that's powerful.	21:17
	Rebecca how would you define Re-imagining?	21:20
-	Thinking outside the box.	21:25
	Not being held into something,	21:27
	but being allowed to fly free.	21:33
	To explore.	21:39
	You know, it wasn't, and you know this,	21:43
	it wasn't a sense of,	21:47
	Proselytizing you know that type of thing.	21:54
	It wasn't that at all.	21:57
	It was the sense of openness, of welcome,	21:58
	of extension, of building new.	22:03
	And I can't, Jerri Rowville out in California	22:10
	that I referred you to, I had to have my dose	22:13
	of meeting with strong women and I went up to	22:16
	Claremont and had some time with	22:19
	Mary Jeans and Andi Wilking,	22:21
	and Susan Craig and Vera Ryde,	22:24
	and others.	22:25
	And Jerri, and Jerri's really wanting,	22:30
	I send a lot of my Re-imagining stuff to her,	22:35
	'cause she is wanting to reignite it as well.	22:38
	Yeah, on the west coast.	22:43
	And Anne Jayman, who is Presbyterian out there	22:47
	as well, I think Anne, I don't know if Anne's	22:50
	in the LA area, or San Francisco area.	22:53
	But I think there's willingness and interest	22:57
	to get something going.	23:01
	I think Mary Humes is probably,	23:03
	I don't know I think she's pulling out too	23:08
	because she's tired of all the crap.	23:10
	I mean you reach that point it's like okay, I'm done.	23:14
	So yeah.	23:19
-	Now did you reach that point.	23:21
-	Well my point was, I really don't care	23:25
	what you think anymore.	23:27
	(laughs)	23:29
	And it's then become, I've begun my 19th year here,	23:30
	with the Ohio Council of Churches.	23:36
	And I'm 64 years old, so I really don't care,	23:39
	you know, what others think about this.	23:45
	This is pivotal to me.	23:48
	If there's another Re-imagining conference,	23:49
	I'm going.	23:51
	I'm going to let all my friends know.	23:53
	There have been many people who didn't know	23:55
	it was happening who said if I had known,	23:58
	I would have been there.	24:00
	So there's a thirst, I think, for this kind of event,	24:03
	and for this kind of community to have again.	24:09
-	That's great.	24:14
	Well, so what aspects of Re-imagining	24:15
	were most significant and why?	24:19
-	The roundtable.	24:22
	My recollection it was the same group that we sat with	24:28
	throughout.	24:31
-	It was, yes.	24:32
-	And so we could form relationships,	24:33
	and we could come back from workshops and say	24:36
	okay this is what I heard, or you should have	24:39
	experienced this, you know we shared.	24:41
	We formed community around that table.	24:46
	And it was with people I had never met.	24:50
	And that was significant.	24:53
	I mean it reinforced, I would say,	24:58
	my commitment to getting people to have conversations	25:02
	where we're different and we don't know each other.	25:10
	And unless that's really set up it's very hard to do,	25:15
	I think.	25:19
-	Sounds like that would be important, oh, go ahead.	25:20
-	Yeah it would save space.	25:22
	I know it would save space.	25:24
	How do you establish that for conversation	25:27
	to take place.	25:31
-	Yes.	25:32
	Well it sounds like in your current work,	25:34
	in ecumenical affairs that that would be something	25:35
	important to what you're doing.	25:37
-	Exactly, exactly.	25:40
-	Did Re-imagining sort of help in some ways	25:44
	with that do you think?	25:46
-	Oh I'm sure it's undergirded a lot of my	25:49
	understanding of humanism in the Church today	25:51
	and I just believe that different Christian religions	25:55
	particularly, denominations, need to come together.	26:04
	I believe the ecumenical world,	26:08
	which I define as Christian,	26:11
	is crucial.	26:13
	We need to be intent on learning and being with each other.	26:14
	Other world religions are important as well,	26:19
	but we as Christians need to get our act together	26:23
	and it may not come until Jesus Christ comes again,	26:28
	you know type of thing.	26:30
	But in the meantime we chip away at that,	26:32
	and that's what I love doing,	26:36
	and the Aligned Council of Churches	26:39
	has stretched in width of denominations	26:43
	from African American traditions, to Greek Orthodox,	26:46
	to peace churches, to Roman Catholics, to mainline	26:49
	denominations.	26:53
	So it's just this incredibly rich, 18 denominations	26:54
	spread, and they don't know about each other.	27:01
	Anyway, and that's another whole story.	27:05
	But yeah, I think Re-imagining has just been a part of	27:09
	undergirding if you will,	27:15
	giving a foundation.	27:18
	I'm not really thinking Re-imagining,	27:20
	oh I learned this and I'm just trying to do that,	27:22
	it's there.	27:25
	It was one of the best things that ever happened,	27:27
	I think, in my life.	27:33
-	Wow.	27:35
	Wow.	27:36
	That's pretty powerful.	27:38
-	Well, I don't apologize for it.	27:42
	I just say, well, you know what,	27:45
	you missed out.	27:48
	And you know when somebody, I haven't had anybody	27:49
	you know for a long time say you were at that,	27:54
	but I'll say, and a lot of people don't even	28:01
	know about it, even now.	28:05
-	I think you're already kind of talking about this,	28:12
	but how did your involvement in Re-imagining	28:14
	change your perspective on feminist theology,	28:16
	and or the church?	28:20
-	Well, I think really for me,	28:22
	feminist theology was just kind of a	28:25
	piece of the whole puzzle,	28:29
	because there was (mumbles).	28:31
	I really learned more about those aspects	28:35
	and I didn't really have much to go on,	28:42
	with those before.	28:46
	And so I think it really changed my perspective	28:47
	that feminist theology is only one piece	28:52
	of women doing theology.	28:57
	There's other cultural aspects.	29:01
	So, you know a changed realizing yes,	29:07
	I'm feminist, I'm not a womanist if I'm not	29:10
	African American, and I'm not (mumbles)	29:13
	because I'm not Hispanic.	29:16
	So I have better and deeper appreciation of those aspects	29:17
	and realizing I'm just one small piece.	29:22
-	That's great.	29:27
	So looking back on it what specific contributions	29:28
	do you think Re-imagining made to Christian theology	29:31
	and liturgy?	29:34
-	I think huge.	29:37
	I think Re-imagining challenged traditional	29:38
	Christian theology that we've lived with in	29:44
	the Western World.	29:46
	I think it also challenged,	29:49
	maybe for those from international observance,	29:51
	it challenged their understandings	29:56
	of Western theology too.	30:00
	And our theology is so predominant,	30:04
	we say it's predominant,	30:06
	we say it's the only way that patriarchal,	30:08
	you know I'm just, I'm so, what's the word.	30:11
	I wish we weren't still living in a patriarchal society.	30:19
	You know for women not to have the same pay,	30:23
	for us to be suspect in our,	30:27
	Hillary Clinton, you know, well you know	30:31
	her period or something like this.	30:33
	It's like oh my gosh,	30:35
	please give me a break.	30:37
	(laughs)	30:39
	Yeah it's like men have no clue.	30:40
	I'm going off on that, but I think the theology	30:43
	I think Re-imagining pushed Christian theology	30:52
	to the edge where people had to deal with it,	30:56
	whether positive or negative,	31:03
	and I know when I'm trying to remember.	31:08
	I think, just trying to think.	31:12
	I think it was after that that another clergywoman	31:16
	and I started in Woolville.	31:19
	what did we call it, Women Weaving or something.	31:23
	But worship services, once a month,	31:28
	and we did it for maybe three years.	31:34
	But we used some different resources,	31:37
	working some blessings by Rosemary Mitchell	31:44
	and Gail Rashudie.	31:47
	And so it was just, it was empowering us	31:51
	to offer to others what we had experienced.	31:55
-	So this grew out of Re-imagining?	32:00
-	Yeah, yeah.	32:02
-	Did you use any of the Re-imagining materials	32:05
	do you recall?	32:07
-	I'm sure we did.	32:08
	You know I don't remember what, so, but I did know	32:12
	it was innovative, it was creative,	32:17
	it was soothing.	32:20
	It was what we needed.	32:32
-	Yeah.	32:34
	You know Rebecca, you'd be the person to ask this	32:35
	because you know how huge the backlash was,	32:37
	we've talked about it.	32:40
	Do you think that Re-imagining in the end	32:42
	had a positive effect on the Presbyterian church,	32:44
	or what would your evaluation be of that?	32:46
-	That's a really good question.	32:51
	I don't know.	32:54
	Probably not on the institution,	32:58
	because the institution couldn't deal with it.	33:01
	I think it was positive for many women and men,	33:07
	in ways that we didn't even think about.	33:17
	Because when we got that backlash, it was a sense	33:22
	of reinforcing who we are as women,	33:26
	and holding fast to that.	33:33
	But, I guess, that's a really hard questions.	33:37
	The institution wanted to just deal with it	33:46
	and then put it to bed, and never think about it again.	33:49
	And for many of us it just revved us up,	33:51
	here we come again.	33:57
	(laughs)	33:59
	Watch out.	34:00
	And if you don't join us, you'll be sorry.	34:04
	(laughs)	34:07
-	So in the end what do you think is the greatest legacy	34:11
	of the Re-imagining community?	34:14
-	Nurturing women to	34:24
	engage their creative powers in how we think about	34:32
	God and our relationship as the body of Christ,	34:40
	that are refreshing, and energizing,	34:48
	and affirming.	34:54
-	That is great.	34:58
	Finally, well two last questions,	35:00
	one is what do you think Re-imagining means today	35:02
	and by that I don't just mean the Re-imagining community,	35:05
	but what needs to be reimagined in Church today,	35:07
	in churches today?	35:11
-	Well I have to tell you an aside because the	35:12
	young editor of Presbyterians Today published an article	35:17
	last fall and was using the word Re-imagining.	35:21
	And having younger people reimagine something,	35:25
	and I wrote to him and I said, you need to know	35:29
	the legacy of this word.	35:33
	So I told him, and he had also gotten feedback	35:37
	from people inside 100 Witherspoon in Woolville	35:42
	National Headquarters about the word too,	35:45
	and I spoke with him in person in February	35:50
	I think it was, and he was so grateful,	35:54
	because I don't want anybody else to use it.	35:56
	I mean, it's like this was Re-imagining	36:01
	the Church and God.	36:08
	So Re-imagining, I mean today it still points me back	36:12
	to that conference and what's then to be done today.	36:17
	And I think we need to reimagine again.	36:23
	We're still in the same place we were in 1993.	36:28
-	Say some more about that.	36:32
	In what ways?	36:33
-	I just think the institutional church is still there,	36:35
	and because women aren't getting the same pay as men,	36:39
	even in Clergy, and there are a few more, women	36:43
	who are heads of staff.	36:49
	However, my observance is they are acting just like men.	36:51
	And that they come together and then don't afford	36:57
	themselves together with other clergywomen,	37:02
	who are in smaller churches or are associates	37:06
	or whatever.	37:10
	It's just a phenomenon I'm observing.	37:12
	And I can't think oh my god.	37:16
-	And I think I know your answer to this,	37:20
	but I'm going to ask it.	37:22
	What is your perception on the use of inclusive language	37:23
	and feminist theology in the institutional churches today?	37:28
-	Yes.	37:34
	(laughs)	37:35
	It has to be.	37:39
-	Do you think it is there?	37:40
	In churches today?	37:43
-	No, we've been going backwards.	37:44
	We've been going backwards in the church for	37:46
	over a decade.	37:49
	I see it in seminaries,	37:51
	and in Church.	37:55
	I think it's there in many ways (mumbles)	37:57
	languages, but God is still Father,	38:06
	and that's a huge, you know don't mess with	38:08
	my Father, you know.	38:11
	And I would never, never, where was I just,	38:15
	I have to look at my calendar to think of where I was	38:19
	the other day and I can't think of where it was.	38:21
	Maybe it was, no I don't know.	38:28
	Anyway, I don't pray to Father.	38:30
	I use other language.	38:34
	And I'm right now, the moderator of our	38:40
	Presbytery's Presbyterian women	38:44
	and we have a meeting, spring gathering,	38:47
	a week from Saturday, a week from tomorrow.	38:49
	And I have reprinted the national brochure	38:51
	from women's ministries on inclusive language.	38:55
	I think many people, it's just not in their repertoire	38:58
	anymore.	39:04
	So inclusive language is there.	39:09
	I've got my little Advocacy committee for women's	39:11
	concerns magnet on one of my cabinets here	39:14
	in my office, which is inclusive language.	39:17
	You know you take them apart and put them together	39:20
	type of thing.	39:22
	You know, it's just there.	39:24
	It's prominent, it's needed,	39:25
	and I don't apologize for it at all.	39:27
-	That's great.	39:34
	One last specific question,	39:35
	you probably know we're working on a Re-imagining website,	39:38
	and we're asking for ideas from people about what to	39:42
	include, who would benefit from it.	39:45
	How would they find out about it,	39:47
	just any suggestions you have about that website.	39:49
-	Well I think a little bit of the history	39:52
	would need to be there.	39:56
	And what's happening today?	39:59
	Where are things happening that are outside the box,	40:01
	following the Re-imagining guidelines, if you will.	40:06
	Liturgies,	40:12
	exploration groups.	40:16
	Bible study groups or study groups, you know.	40:19
	Book groups, that type of thing.	40:23
	What are books, you know,	40:24
	that type of thing.	40:26
	I know that, I'm trying to think,	40:28
	I think there was a recent piece that came out	40:30
	and I thought oh this would be good	40:39
	for the Re-imagining community.	40:43
	Of course I can't remember it,	40:45
	so I can't contribute it.	40:46
	(laughs)	40:48
	But I think there are things, lectures.	40:52
	You know, where are lectures happening,	40:56
	you know, across the United States.	40:58
	Because I think I know there are people	41:01
	who would plug in and say okay on the west coast	41:03
	in LA in November on 2016, this is happening.	41:06
	That type of thing.	41:10
	So it's a networking.	41:15
	I see it as a lot of networking and resourcing	41:16
	and providing, noting education events,	41:19
	you know that type of thing.	41:27
	And do you have a support.	41:28
	We started a support group here in Columbus too.	41:30
	When I moved here in '97,	41:33
	was there a conference in '98.	41:36
-	There was.	41:38
-	Okay, well one young clergywoman,	41:40
	we met there, and came back here, and then started	41:45
	a small group, but it didn't continue.	41:48
	It just kind of, it just didn't have the oomph	41:51
	to it.	41:55
-	I'm actually still in a Re-imagining small group.	41:59
	There's only a few that have survived,	42:01
	and I'm in one of them.	42:02
	It's lasted over 20 years,	42:03
	which is great.	42:05
-	I love it.	42:06
	I love it.	42:07
-	It's wonderful.	42:08
	Now this has been absolutely wonderful.	42:11
	Is there anything that we haven't discussed,	42:13
	that you would like to add Rebecca?	42:16
-	Well, I don't think so I mean you've heard	42:19
	loud and clear where I was and how I believed	42:26
	in this, and let's do it again.	42:31
-	Yes, yes.	42:36
	Wonderful.	42:38
-	I don't have strong feminist friends here in Columbus,	42:40
	at least I feel like I don't.	42:46
	So, where are the strong women today?	42:50
	Where are these women who are bold, who are courageous,	42:52
	who are putting things out there.	42:58
	And one thing I was just thinking of,	43:06
	I think in Re-imagining damaged the institution,	43:06
	because I think people have, women particularly,	43:11
	have fallen back	43:14
	and like now let's tread kind of lightly now,	43:16
	instead of just going for it.	43:20
	And I think in Presbyterian women,	43:24
	that organization.	43:26
	You know, people think oh Presbyterian women	43:29
	and (mumbles) so great now because I'm the moderator,	43:32
	it's like please.	43:35
	Well yeah, it's because I speak my mind.	43:37
	I think a little bit if not a lot out of the box.	43:41
	So I used a quote from Lamont Lobby	43:49
	who was a Nobel peace prize winner from (mumbles)	43:53
	I think, about when I was installed a year ago this month,	43:58
	about treading, something about treading.	44:04
	Don't just tiptoe, but make an imprint.	44:11
	I'm doing a devotion for our gathering next weekend	44:19
	and I want to bring that back,	44:22
	and say what is it that we've done in the last year,	44:25
	where we've made an imprint instead of	44:30
	just tiptoeing?	44:32
-	Wow, that's a great question.	44:34
-	It's just, I love that quote.	44:36
	It's really helped me.	44:41
-	I do want to follow up on one thing you just said	44:44
	because it's been a question I'm trying to figure out,	44:47
	and that is, do you think in the end,	44:50
	the backlash against Re-imagining actually set	44:52
	feminist theology and inclusive language	44:55
	back in the church, in the institutional church?	44:57
-	It may be.	45:02
	I don't know why there was that sliders bin,	45:03
	you know going back to people not.	45:08
	You know, that's a good question.	45:15
	Let me say, that I think the '70s and the '80s	45:17
	were strong decades for strong women,	45:20
	because when In went to seminary some women	45:24
	a year ahead of me and even two years ahead of me,	45:30
	I just felt in admiration of, and still admire them.	45:32
	They're women who are strong, who are pivotal	45:38
	in their leadership.	45:42
	I don't think we've developed those kinds of women since.	45:45
	Maybe that's why the inclusive language	45:49
	is not as, has not happened or continued	45:52
	in the strong vein as it used to.	45:57
	Because I'm seeing, I don't know	46:02
	where my feminist theologian friends here	46:04
	are in Columbus.	46:07
	I have to go to California to find them.	46:08
	Or, you know Peg Chamberlain.	46:16
-	Yes.	46:18
-	Okay, well Peg and I have known each other since I served	46:20
	on Minnesota Council of Churches in '87.	46:24
	And so when she and I are together	46:31
	at a State Ecumenical Execs retreat,	46:33
	she and I can sit and talk feminist theology.	46:36
	But I think there just aren't the leaders,	46:43
	like there were.	46:47
	And maybe some of that is because we got burned out,	46:49
	and we got hurt, and we said,	46:53
	you know I'm done with this.	46:55
	I don't need to be involved in this any more.	46:57
	I've done what I can.	47:02
	So I think, I think that's maybe,	47:05
	there's some credence to that.	47:08
-	Well thank you so much.	47:13
	I'm going to turn the recording off now,	47:15
	if that's okay?	47:17
-	Okay.	47:18
-	Good, I'm just turning the recording off.	47:19

Item Info

Title:

Tollefson, Rebecca

Date:

April 15, 2016

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Jordon, Sherry E. (Sherry Elaine)

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Tollefson, Rebecca

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