| - |
And actually, it didn't have a name |
0:00
|
|
but my mother was really key in my understanding |
0:04
|
|
of women and equality, because she was, |
0:09
|
|
she was a soldier, let me tell you. |
0:12
|
| - |
Was she? |
0:15
|
| - |
Oh, yeah. |
|
| - |
Tell me in what way? |
0:16
|
|
What was she like? |
0:17
|
| - |
In every way. |
0:18
|
|
I'm telling you, she ... |
0:18
|
|
I was gonna turn this off here so we don't hear that. |
0:20
|
|
Mom came from a generation of women who were alive |
0:26
|
|
and cognizant. |
0:31
|
|
She was born in 1913. |
0:32
|
| - |
Wow. |
|
| - |
She died at 103. |
0:35
|
| - |
Oh, wow. |
0:36
|
| - |
And she was sharp up until almost the very end. |
0:38
|
| - |
That's wonderful. |
0:41
|
| - |
So anyway, the long and short of that is she |
0:43
|
|
and Dad were missionaries. |
0:49
|
|
And they were in, they were teaching, preaching, |
0:51
|
|
and she was also, she was a teacher-nurse. |
0:55
|
|
So she had come up. |
0:58
|
|
Her family had money, |
1:02
|
|
and they sent her to a private high school and college, |
1:06
|
|
and so they were, |
1:10
|
|
how to put this? |
1:16
|
|
She would have been just a kid during the, |
1:20
|
|
a little, small kid really, during the feminist era, |
1:25
|
|
but in the rural boondocks, |
1:28
|
|
I mean, everybody had to work like nobody's business. |
1:33
|
|
Nobody got cut any slack, |
1:37
|
|
and she said she still remembered children dragging bags |
1:39
|
|
of cotton behind them. |
1:42
|
| - |
Wow, is this in Alabama? |
1:44
|
| - |
Alabama. |
1:45
|
| - |
Yeah, wow. |
|
| - |
And she was from South Carolina. |
1:46
|
| - |
Okay. |
1:48
|
| - |
And so my dad's people are from Alabama so ... |
1:49
|
|
But anyway so, long and short, |
1:54
|
|
they were just out in the boonies with each other |
1:57
|
|
and so there really wasn't any ... |
1:59
|
|
I mean, her ideas were shaped by what she could do |
2:03
|
|
and she could do a lot of things. |
2:06
|
|
And she also had been a kid who they, |
2:09
|
|
she was raised by older sisters, |
2:16
|
|
who didn't have kids. |
2:18
|
|
I mean, she was raised in New York City |
2:21
|
|
so she was used to speaking out. |
2:25
|
|
Of course, Harlem at that time was going |
2:28
|
|
through the renaissance, |
2:30
|
| - |
Oh, yes. |
|
| - |
So that was a place where she flowered really. |
2:32
|
| - |
Wow, how wonderful! |
2:38
|
| - |
And so then when she met my dad, |
2:40
|
|
and they decided to go back as missionaries, |
2:43
|
|
you know, that time, that era, for black women |
2:47
|
|
was really interesting because they were being educated too, |
2:53
|
|
you see, along with black men and so forth. |
2:57
|
|
So anyway, she also was a runner, |
3:01
|
|
and she made the Olympics tryouts. |
3:05
|
| - |
Wow! |
3:10
|
| - |
Apparently her mother wouldn't let her go, |
3:11
|
|
because Hitler. |
3:12
|
| - |
Oh, yes! |
|
|
Wow! |
3:15
|
|
Oh Vivian, that is amazing! |
3:17
|
|
Were your parents missionaries, you mentioned Guinea, |
3:20
|
|
is that where it was? |
3:22
|
| - |
No, no, actually the New Guinea connection is |
3:23
|
|
that when I was considering the deaconate. |
3:25
|
| - |
Okay. |
3:29
|
| - |
Our sisterhood. |
3:30
|
|
I decided not to go but to help them, |
3:31
|
|
and they needed a handbook that would translate |
3:34
|
|
from English to Pidgin, |
3:40
|
|
and would be pictures of things that they could, |
3:44
|
|
that they worked with, that they needed. |
3:47
|
|
I can remember clear as anything, |
3:50
|
|
drawing a picture of a kidney-shaped bowl, |
3:51
|
|
and that kind of stuff. |
3:54
|
| - |
Oh, wow. |
3:56
|
| - |
Yeah, and forceps and things like that they needed |
3:57
|
|
to explain. |
3:59
|
|
But anyway, so that was my (laughing) |
4:01
|
|
that was my pre-Peace Corps. |
4:05
|
|
And then we had something called |
4:08
|
|
the Prince of Peace Corps, |
4:10
|
|
and it was, of course, spun of off the real one, |
4:13
|
|
the Peace Corps, but I applied for the Peace Corps |
4:17
|
|
and I was accepted to Afghanistan. |
4:20
|
| - |
Really? |
4:22
|
| - |
Mm-hmm. |
|
|
In those days the Secret Service cleared you, |
4:27
|
|
and it was an all-day test at the post office. |
4:30
|
|
And so anyway, Eugene Burdick who wrote The Ugly American |
4:34
|
|
had come to our campus, |
4:37
|
|
and just practically the whole campus was like ... |
4:39
|
|
We had more Peace Corps volunteers from that little college |
4:42
|
|
than any other school in Nebraska. |
4:45
|
| - |
Seriously. |
4:47
|
| - |
And so I was on my way to Afghanistan, |
4:49
|
|
and one of my dearest friends was in Turkey, |
4:52
|
|
and he came back and said, "Oh no, no. |
4:54
|
|
"You can't do that." |
4:56
|
|
(laughing) |
4:57
|
|
"And as outspoken as you are, no." |
4:59
|
|
(laughing) |
5:00
|
|
But, as it turned out I didn't have to make the decision |
5:01
|
|
because the Afghan government said they didn't want us. |
5:04
|
| - |
Is that right? |
5:07
|
| - |
Yeah, they shut that down. |
5:08
|
| - |
Wow, Vivian that's fascinating. |
5:11
|
|
Do you know, where you left off was you were talking |
5:12
|
|
about studying with one of your favorite theologians. |
5:14
|
|
Who was that? |
5:18
|
| - |
One of my favorites was, |
5:19
|
|
her name was Mrs. Hauge, H-A-U-G-E. |
5:21
|
|
Her husband was dead by the time I knew her, |
5:26
|
|
but the Hauge Honors were a section of the Danish church. |
5:30
|
| - |
Oh! |
5:34
|
| - |
Yeah, and so our thing is that she wanted to be a pastor |
5:35
|
|
in the church and the last I heard, |
5:41
|
|
she had gone back to Denmark. |
5:43
|
|
She wasn't ever, I don't know what her family history was. |
5:45
|
|
I know she was Danish but she went back to Denmark |
5:48
|
|
and married a Danish dairy farmer, |
5:52
|
|
and was ordained in the Danish church. |
5:58
|
| - |
Oh, wonderful! |
6:03
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
| - |
That's great! |
6:05
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
| - |
So, pass over the water here. |
6:08
|
|
We're getting some water here. |
6:10
|
| - |
Yeah, don't wanna pour this over your machinery. |
6:12
|
| - |
Yeah, good point. |
6:14
|
| - |
Okay, I'll let you get it. |
6:15
|
| - |
Good. |
|
|
How did you get initially involved in Re-imagining? |
6:17
|
|
You mentioned, well what was the connection? |
6:20
|
|
The Ecumenical Deaconate? |
6:22
|
| - |
Yeah, the connection was that I had been at that desk |
6:23
|
|
and we were located here in town. |
6:26
|
|
The Lutheran National, the Lutheran Church. |
6:29
|
| - |
Oh, okay. |
6:31
|
| - |
And we did a lot of conferencing and so forth and so on, |
6:32
|
|
plus I'd gone to the Decade, |
6:34
|
|
two of the three Decade meetings, |
6:37
|
|
the beginning and the middle. |
6:40
|
|
And I wasn't able to get to the one in Africa, |
6:42
|
|
my brother died the week before I was supposed to go. |
6:46
|
|
So I couldn't go, but anyway. |
6:50
|
|
So basically, and also in that interim, |
6:53
|
|
I became ... |
7:00
|
|
What can I say? |
7:06
|
|
I became chair of the Women's Equity Action League, |
7:10
|
|
which Arvonne Fraser was the national president, |
7:17
|
|
and had been state chair and that was the women's |
7:20
|
|
legal side of the movement. |
7:26
|
| - |
Really? |
7:28
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
And so that's when I got to know people like Jenny, |
7:29
|
|
who was head of NOW and so forth. |
7:32
|
|
And those were the two big feminist organizations, |
7:34
|
|
so I tried, and did bring in more black women |
7:40
|
|
to the movement because, at that point, |
7:45
|
|
we had really been told in no uncertain terms |
7:47
|
|
that the feminist movement was a white women's movement |
7:55
|
|
and it was anti-black male and yadda, yadda, yah. |
7:58
|
| - |
So who was telling you that? |
8:01
|
| - |
Oh well, let me see here. |
8:03
|
|
Just about every black male. |
8:06
|
|
(laughing) |
8:07
|
|
So and, I tell you, |
8:08
|
|
it was like I was being pilloried in the black newspaper |
8:13
|
|
because I was destroying the black family |
8:20
|
|
because I stood on the steps of Morrill Hall |
8:22
|
|
with Jack Baker and Dr., |
8:25
|
|
oh gosh, what is his name? |
8:31
|
|
He's long dead now, but ... |
8:33
|
|
Oh, gosh if I could say the name now you would know it, |
8:39
|
|
but anyway, he was a very, very well-known professor |
8:41
|
|
of sociology at the U. |
8:47
|
|
But anyway, long and short, the headline indicated |
8:51
|
|
that I was destroying the black family. |
8:56
|
|
(laughing) |
8:59
|
|
I'm standing with a gay male. |
9:00
|
| - |
Really? |
|
| - |
Oh yeah. |
9:03
|
| - |
Wow. |
|
| - |
So yeah. |
9:04
|
| - |
How were the white feminists? |
9:05
|
|
Were they, what was their attitude? |
9:07
|
| - |
Well their attitude was they were pretty much happy |
9:10
|
|
as long as I didn't talk about race. |
9:13
|
| - |
Oh, mm-hmm. |
9:15
|
| - |
But that wasn't gonna happen so. |
9:17
|
|
(laughing) |
9:18
|
| - |
Good! |
9:19
|
| - |
So, people who I knew then, |
9:21
|
|
who got it, like Jenny, we're still friends |
9:27
|
|
after all these years. |
9:31
|
| - |
Jenny, who was head of NOW? |
9:32
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
| - |
Yeah, yes. |
9:34
|
| - |
And we were actually, we were meeting with Walter Mondale |
9:36
|
|
to talk about ... |
9:39
|
|
One of them I convinced to come into our meetings |
9:41
|
|
so she could see that we were |
9:45
|
|
really bringing class-action suits. |
9:48
|
|
That's how we were really doing our work. |
9:52
|
|
That also covered other protected classes. |
9:53
|
|
So, for example, one of the cases |
10:02
|
|
that we brought very successfully about was, |
10:05
|
|
at least in the metro area, was public schools. |
10:07
|
|
A certain amount of money that was being spent |
10:12
|
|
on girls' sports as opposed to boys' sports. |
10:15
|
| - |
Oh, yes, yes! |
10:19
|
| - |
And also another one we brought was about, |
10:21
|
|
which covered all girls. |
10:27
|
| - |
Mmm, yes. |
10:29
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
And so, then we brought another one |
10:31
|
|
that really affected black males as well, |
10:34
|
|
and we were intentional about that, |
10:39
|
|
was about the number of people who were coaches |
10:40
|
|
and who were assistant principals, |
10:47
|
|
because mostly that track into coaching came |
10:50
|
|
through the assistant principal. |
10:53
|
| - |
Is that right? |
10:55
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
So, learning to do analysis was, and working from that side, |
10:56
|
|
made me more interested, of course, in public policy |
11:02
|
|
because we were doing things like |
11:05
|
|
going through every statute in Minnesota, |
11:08
|
|
to look at one of them. |
11:11
|
|
Every one of them to see how they were disproportionately |
11:13
|
|
either loaded against women or holding, et cetera. |
11:20
|
|
I mean, we did things like ... |
11:25
|
|
We did a study with a bunch of college students |
11:28
|
|
for WCCO-TV's, their licensure. |
11:33
|
| - |
Mmm! |
11:39
|
| - |
So we looked at every program, we looked at every ad, |
11:40
|
|
oh, it was just amazing. |
11:43
|
| - |
Wow, that's massive, wow. |
11:45
|
| - |
So research is kinda my middle name here and I love it. |
11:46
|
|
It tells the story of a lot of policy work. |
11:51
|
|
A lot of it isn't based on any research, |
12:01
|
|
or bad science, or a combination of all of the above. |
12:04
|
| - |
Right. |
12:08
|
| - |
But so, that was very satisfying. |
12:09
|
| - |
Important work. |
12:12
|
|
So were you involved in the actual planning |
12:14
|
|
of the '93 conference? |
12:16
|
| - |
No, no, I was a participant |
12:19
|
|
and had a bunch of people there. |
12:21
|
| - |
Mmm, I would love to hear what you remember |
12:24
|
|
about the '93 conference. |
12:28
|
|
I know it's been a while but what was your impression? |
12:29
|
| - |
Well, my impression was that I had read the work |
12:32
|
|
of almost all the speakers. |
12:34
|
| - |
Yes! |
12:36
|
|
(laughing) |
12:37
|
| - |
So, it was just grand to hear them, see them, |
12:38
|
|
you know, talk to them. |
12:43
|
|
I mean, it was just, |
12:47
|
|
it was like all my feminist bucket list stuff. |
12:49
|
|
(laughing) |
12:54
|
|
Had come true, you know. |
12:55
|
| - |
Right, yes! |
12:57
|
| - |
And to actually respond to one of the speakers, |
12:58
|
|
and I'm trying to think of what her name was. |
13:02
|
|
I'm so bad on names today. |
13:03
|
|
But anyway, and ... |
13:06
|
|
And my student who, Rene Whiterabbit, |
13:10
|
| - |
Yes! |
13:15
|
| - |
Was also on that panel. |
13:16
|
| - |
Right, yes! |
|
| - |
And it was the speaker, her and me. |
13:19
|
| - |
Oh, oh. |
13:21
|
| - |
Yeah, so we were looking at color |
13:23
|
|
and what people call intersections now. |
13:24
|
| - |
Right! |
13:28
|
| - |
And really trying to see how we could |
13:31
|
|
work inside of |
13:37
|
|
ethnic groups that |
13:41
|
|
really felt quite threatened by the movement and so forth. |
13:45
|
|
And then now they had to meet at a church. |
13:48
|
|
(laughing) |
13:51
|
| - |
Wait, what do you mean they had to meet at a church? |
13:52
|
| - |
You know, it was one thing to be out in the streets |
13:53
|
|
and about, and at your work. |
13:55
|
|
The law has changed around women and what you can do |
13:58
|
|
and so forth. |
14:01
|
| - |
Right. |
14:02
|
| - |
But it's quite another thing to meet it at church. |
14:03
|
|
Church is the most segregated power. |
14:05
|
| - |
Exactly. |
14:07
|
| - |
And it's not just for race either. |
14:08
|
|
I mean, I'm in 150-year-old congregation |
14:11
|
|
and I remember clearly, |
14:14
|
|
clearly when the first woman clergy came |
14:17
|
|
to that congregation. |
14:20
|
| - |
Is that right? |
14:22
|
| - |
She's a dear friend. |
14:24
|
|
I was just seeing her yesterday. |
14:25
|
|
She was in rehab from a fall, but anyway, yeah, oh yeah. |
14:26
|
|
And all of the angst |
14:31
|
|
and preaching and da-de-da-de-da, |
14:35
|
|
and all that and people dropping off |
14:38
|
|
and the things they said to her were just outrageous. |
14:39
|
| - |
Oh, oh. |
14:44
|
| - |
Yeah, so, but she was a, as I said, |
14:45
|
|
she was a good soldier, |
14:48
|
|
(laughing) |
14:49
|
| - |
Yes! |
|
| - |
She pushed all the way through it and the fact |
14:51
|
|
that the church says that you have to do something |
14:55
|
|
doesn't mean congregations are going to do it. |
14:57
|
| - |
Exactly. |
15:00
|
| - |
So you know, being on that end of it, |
15:01
|
|
it was interesting too. |
15:05
|
|
I had forgotten this but my friend Una from Denmark was here |
15:07
|
|
and she was saying, "You preached a very good sermon |
15:11
|
|
"when you came to Denmark." |
15:15
|
|
And I had forgotten all about it. |
15:17
|
|
She had invited me, |
15:19
|
|
you know when you're on these U.N. conferences, |
15:21
|
|
they're a month long. |
15:23
|
| - |
Really? |
15:25
|
| - |
Mm-hmm. |
|
|
And so you have to have either, |
15:26
|
|
you have to have your own resources |
15:28
|
|
or you have to be sent by somebody, |
15:31
|
|
because who ... |
15:36
|
|
You know what I'm saying. |
15:37
|
|
You go and spend a month. |
15:39
|
| - |
That's incredible. |
15:40
|
| - |
And so anyway, as it turned out, |
15:41
|
|
she said, "Do you remember about what I told you |
15:45
|
|
"about the prayers?" |
15:49
|
|
I said, yeah that part I remember. |
15:50
|
|
Denmark has a minimum, at that time, |
15:53
|
|
they had 14 different political parties. |
15:56
|
|
And they all got equal time. |
15:59
|
| - |
Wow. |
16:01
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
And there was one, I think there may have been two, |
16:02
|
|
one or two debates on TV, that was it. |
16:06
|
|
That was it. |
16:10
|
|
I mean, people weren't taking signs. |
16:11
|
|
You didn't see all this stuff on the ... |
16:13
|
|
There were no ads and things like that. |
16:16
|
|
It was just, that was it. |
16:19
|
|
If you couldn't tell your story then, the end. |
16:21
|
|
You were done for. |
16:23
|
|
So anyway, this one pastor who was, |
16:25
|
|
she was a Communist and one Sunday she, |
16:30
|
|
in a country where pastors are civil servants, |
16:36
|
|
just like the postmen, and organists too, as well. |
16:42
|
|
And all their major universities have theological stuff |
16:48
|
|
in them and so forth. |
16:52
|
|
And so for someone to say that they were not gonna follow |
16:56
|
|
the order of service, |
17:02
|
|
becomes a matter of law here. |
17:04
|
| - |
Oh! |
17:06
|
| - |
Okay, so there is no separation of church |
17:07
|
|
and state in all. |
17:10
|
| - |
Right. |
17:12
|
| - |
So I was like really? |
17:13
|
|
And this Communist pastor had decided she wasn't going |
17:14
|
|
to pray for the Queen and her ladies-in-waiting |
17:17
|
|
and the knights. |
17:20
|
|
(laughing) |
17:22
|
|
And they were threatening to put her in jail! |
17:24
|
|
(laughing) |
17:26
|
| - |
Wow! |
17:27
|
| - |
And so, well that whole memory of all of that |
17:30
|
|
and she said, I remember she said, |
17:34
|
|
"I told you." |
17:35
|
|
She said, "Please, please, please you have to pray |
17:37
|
|
"for the Queen." |
17:38
|
|
(laughing) |
17:40
|
|
I don't have any problem praying for your Queen. |
17:42
|
|
(laughing) |
17:44
|
| - |
Oh, that's wild, it is. |
17:46
|
| - |
But yeah, so by that point, |
17:48
|
|
I was very active in the Women's Equity Action League, |
17:54
|
|
and active with higher ed folks, |
17:58
|
|
and you know, |
18:03
|
|
earlier the three of us had, |
18:08
|
|
we were at Augsberg and I was just a young pup |
18:13
|
|
starting my, |
18:16
|
|
(chuckling) |
18:17
|
|
Starting my teaching career |
18:18
|
|
and three of us ended up being discriminated against |
18:23
|
|
and we were in different departments, |
18:26
|
|
and so we didn't know |
18:28
|
|
that we were being discriminated against |
18:30
|
|
until one of my students, who was a young black man, |
18:32
|
|
did a cover story with our three pictures, saying, |
18:36
|
|
and the headline said something like |
18:40
|
|
lions three, Christians nothing. |
18:45
|
| - |
Oh really? |
18:48
|
|
(laughing) |
18:49
|
|
So how were you being discriminated against? |
18:51
|
|
What was revealed? |
18:52
|
| - |
Oh what was revealed in my case, let's see, |
18:53
|
|
what was revealed was that they were giving, quote, men, |
18:56
|
|
who were quote, heads of households, more money than women. |
19:01
|
| - |
Oh! |
19:05
|
| - |
And so my colleague, who he and I started the same day, |
19:06
|
|
same department, neither of us had kids, |
19:09
|
|
we were both married, |
19:13
|
|
and I was working much harder than him. |
19:16
|
|
He was not teaching and I was teaching |
19:19
|
|
and working as a staff member and head of a program. |
19:22
|
| - |
Wow. |
19:26
|
| - |
And he was just doing his counseling work |
19:27
|
|
and going to have coffee. |
19:30
|
|
And so one day, |
19:33
|
|
I answered the phone and someone said |
19:37
|
|
on the other end, they were doing a credit check for, |
19:39
|
|
I knew he was buying a car, for I'll say Tom, whatever. |
19:43
|
|
That is not his name but anyway, |
19:49
|
|
and could I verify that he was making X amount of dollars. |
19:52
|
|
Well it was $5,000 more than I was making. |
19:55
|
| - |
Wow! |
19:58
|
| - |
And my husband was going to graduate school, |
19:59
|
|
and like, I said, I said to the person, |
20:03
|
|
I hope to God not and hung up the phone. |
20:06
|
|
(laughing) |
20:08
|
|
I was kind of a hothead. |
20:13
|
| - |
Yes! |
20:14
|
|
(laughing) |
20:15
|
|
Well, that's terrible. |
20:16
|
| - |
Mm-hmm, yeah. |
|
|
So then when I brought that to my director of our department |
20:22
|
|
he said, "Oh well, he's a head of a household." |
20:27
|
|
I said so am I. |
20:29
|
|
What are you talking about? |
20:31
|
|
Oh no, that was head of household. |
20:32
|
|
And then I discovered that, at the time, |
20:34
|
|
that teachers who marry each other? |
20:36
|
| - |
Mm-hmm. |
20:41
|
| - |
Her, in Minneapolis, her salary dropped. |
20:42
|
| - |
Oh my goodness! |
20:46
|
| - |
Okay. |
20:48
|
|
I was like no, huh-uh, this can't happen. |
20:49
|
|
I ended up testifying up at the legislature about it. |
20:51
|
|
I just couldn't let ... |
20:54
|
|
I'm kinda like a dog with a bone. |
20:55
|
|
(laughing) |
20:56
|
| - |
Oh good for you! |
21:01
|
| - |
They did change that. |
21:03
|
| - |
They did change, yeah, yeah. |
21:04
|
| - |
But you know, one of the things, |
21:06
|
|
one of the lessons I learned early in seeing my parents, |
21:07
|
|
my mother particularly, |
21:12
|
|
is that you have to show up. |
21:14
|
| - |
Mm-hmm, yes. |
21:17
|
| - |
You have to show up |
21:18
|
|
and if they're gonna do something tricky, |
21:19
|
|
they were always doing tricky stuff in the south, |
21:21
|
|
trying to keep people out of stuff. |
21:24
|
| - |
Right. |
21:25
|
| - |
So if they said the committee meeting was going |
21:26
|
|
to be at 11:30 at night, you show up at 11:30 at night. |
21:29
|
|
And things did happen that way. |
21:32
|
| - |
Yes. |
21:34
|
| - |
I went to a meeting at midnight, |
21:34
|
|
and so we'd have to have relays like somebody would be |
21:37
|
|
up there and say, "Okay now, there it's coming up |
21:39
|
|
"in about two hours." |
21:43
|
|
And you'd get out of your jammies and get in the car and go. |
21:45
|
| - |
Wow! |
21:48
|
| - |
So we were on the front lines of all that stuff |
21:49
|
|
and so if anything, I have to say that the whole ... |
21:52
|
|
Well there was this tension between feminism and womanism. |
22:00
|
| - |
Right. |
22:04
|
| - |
At the time of the conference. |
22:04
|
| - |
Yes, say something about that, yes. |
22:06
|
| - |
Okay, so black feminists were pushed, |
22:08
|
|
or black women who had any sensibilities around this issue |
22:12
|
|
were pushed very hard into a different place |
22:15
|
|
so that they were not ... |
22:18
|
|
You know, your blackness was at stake |
22:20
|
|
if you were with the white women's movement. |
22:22
|
|
Anyway, so the womanist movement gave black theologians, |
22:28
|
|
female theologians, a place to stand, place to be. |
22:34
|
| - |
Right, right. |
22:37
|
| - |
And so people were very, very, |
22:39
|
|
what's the word? |
22:45
|
|
The word feminist was like a bad word. |
22:47
|
|
And in a funny way, it still is with young women, today. |
22:51
|
| - |
Yes. |
22:54
|
| - |
And I wanna say, and they think they just fell |
22:55
|
|
into this stuff, but it's like no, huh-uh. |
22:57
|
|
And one of the things that ... |
23:01
|
|
You know, it was a hard left, if you will, |
23:07
|
|
and that's both theological and political. |
23:12
|
|
It was a hard left to accept that God, |
23:17
|
|
and the Godhead, for those of us who are Trinitarians, |
23:20
|
|
that one piece of God could be like half the creation. |
23:25
|
| - |
Mm-hmm, right, right. |
23:31
|
| - |
In spite of the fact that the proverbs |
23:33
|
|
and the wisdom literature had always been translated |
23:37
|
|
and heard and seen with effeminate ... |
23:40
|
|
With a whole, if you didn't clear it out, |
23:48
|
|
which some German theologians were very good at doing. |
23:52
|
|
Which is why the King James is used so ... |
23:57
|
|
I mean, you know, if you didn't translate it out, |
24:01
|
|
it's there. |
24:05
|
| - |
Yeah, yeah, yeah. |
24:06
|
| - |
I mean, the Godhead has she in it. |
24:07
|
| - |
Right. |
24:09
|
|
So Vivian, how did you negotiate that, |
24:11
|
|
the feminist/womanist? |
24:14
|
|
You're kinda in the middle there, what did you do? |
24:16
|
|
How'd you handle it? |
24:17
|
| - |
Well you know, basically I didn't see any |
24:18
|
|
real difference between the two. |
24:23
|
|
To me, it was just a matter of semantics. |
24:27
|
|
And the womanist tradition, I think, |
24:31
|
|
like I said, it gave people a place to stand. |
24:37
|
|
I didn't need a place to stand. |
24:39
|
|
I was already standing there, |
24:40
|
|
with my denomination and so forth, you see. |
24:43
|
| - |
Right. |
24:45
|
| - |
So by the time that conference had happened, |
24:48
|
|
we had had women in clergy for 20 years. |
24:50
|
| - |
Yes, yes, you've been involved in supporting that. |
24:53
|
|
So at the conference, you talked about the speakers |
24:56
|
|
and responding. |
24:59
|
|
Are there any other particular moments from that conference? |
25:01
|
| - |
I do remember just looking out |
25:04
|
|
and it was a pretty vast crowd. |
25:10
|
|
And just looking out and thinking |
25:13
|
|
oh my God there are all these people, |
25:15
|
|
who think the same way. |
25:18
|
|
I mean, because you know, |
25:19
|
|
so much of what my experience had been was |
25:23
|
|
creating it myself, |
25:26
|
|
or helping other people, helping other people to do work. |
25:30
|
|
And it was an uphill battle, |
25:35
|
|
because we were in the most conservative part of the church. |
25:37
|
| - |
Mm-hmm. |
25:44
|
| - |
And so when we would go to national meetings and stuff, |
25:46
|
|
which I continued to do after I left and went back to the U, |
25:51
|
|
was really, was really tough. |
25:57
|
|
I mean, it's taken a tone now for people to say |
26:01
|
|
oh let's call that woman, oh and by the way, |
26:07
|
|
we have to find a job for her husband. |
26:09
|
|
(laughing) |
26:11
|
|
Yeah, and so here we are. |
26:14
|
|
And I looked out on that crowd |
26:18
|
|
and I was like oh my God, this is amazing. |
26:19
|
| - |
Yes. |
26:24
|
| - |
You know, and it was such a vindication, really, |
26:25
|
|
and that there were people of color in this thing. |
26:28
|
|
And I remember meeting some Asian women, |
26:31
|
|
and I was like oh my dear, how lovely is that? |
26:35
|
| - |
Yes! |
26:38
|
| - |
And so Native women and kids have been, |
26:40
|
|
let's see Marlene Helgemo was my go-to parent, |
26:47
|
|
to go with me, to have meetings with the kids |
26:55
|
|
and so forth and so on. |
26:59
|
|
So, she was my right hand and then when she decided |
27:01
|
|
to go into ministry I was just thrilled. |
27:06
|
| - |
Oh! |
27:09
|
| - |
Just thrilled. |
|
| - |
Wonderful. |
27:11
|
| - |
And then she's still working now with that same group |
27:12
|
|
of kids that I started all these eons ago. |
27:15
|
| - |
I love it! |
27:19
|
|
That is wonderful. |
27:20
|
|
So did you get involved in the Cordaid Council |
27:21
|
|
shortly after the '93 conference? |
27:24
|
| - |
I think that was it. |
27:26
|
|
I think that was it. |
27:27
|
| - |
Yeah. |
27:28
|
| - |
You know, that part of the memory is so ... |
27:29
|
|
And I remember Manly. |
27:32
|
| - |
Yes! |
27:34
|
| - |
Who forgets Manly? |
27:35
|
| - |
I know, wonderful guy. |
27:36
|
| - |
Who was our chair? |
27:38
|
| - |
For the '93, it was Mary Kay Sauter |
27:41
|
|
and Kathi Austin Mahle. |
27:44
|
| - |
Yes, yes. |
|
|
(talking over each other) |
27:46
|
| - |
So do you recall the backlash? |
27:49
|
|
Did it affect you at all? |
27:51
|
| - |
Oh yeah, I remember the backlash. |
27:52
|
| - |
Yeah, yeah. |
27:53
|
| - |
But you know, it was like at that point, |
27:54
|
|
like I say, our denomination was grounded |
27:58
|
|
and so, you know all this goddess talk and all that crap. |
28:02
|
|
It was just ... |
28:07
|
|
You know, I'd been up against some of the best |
28:10
|
|
of them really. |
28:11
|
|
(laughing) |
28:12
|
|
Things like meeting in the same hotel in St. Cloud, |
28:16
|
|
as we were getting ready to go down, |
28:21
|
|
that was one of the, um, in 1976, |
28:23
|
|
when we had the women's conference in Houston. |
28:28
|
| - |
Mmm. |
28:30
|
| - |
And that was, that ... |
28:32
|
|
Oh, man, Phyllis Schlafly brought her conference |
28:34
|
|
to the same hotel. |
28:38
|
| - |
Really? |
28:40
|
| - |
Yes, really. |
28:41
|
|
Her strongest group was farm women in Stearns county. |
28:42
|
| - |
Oh, wow! |
28:46
|
| - |
Oh, yeah. |
28:47
|
|
And her Eagle Forum? |
28:48
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
| - |
Oh man! |
28:50
|
|
And she had, |
28:51
|
|
there was a book out that an anti-feminist, |
28:54
|
|
a woman, had put out and it was ... |
29:00
|
|
Oh, it was awful but it was a best-seller |
29:05
|
|
and I remember that Phyllis had her women |
29:07
|
|
saving their egg money to fight this battle against us, |
29:12
|
|
and oh, man. |
29:17
|
|
And then once we got to Houston-- |
29:19
|
| - |
Just to clarify, us would be the Lutheran Church |
29:23
|
|
and ordained-- |
29:25
|
| - |
No, actually us would be the Women's Equity Action League. |
29:25
|
| - |
Oh, okay, okay, got it, got it. |
29:31
|
| - |
The Action League, NOW, you know all of the feminists, |
29:33
|
|
we were getting our delegates down that we'd chosen. |
29:36
|
| - |
Yes. |
29:40
|
| - |
And by the time we got down there, two things happened, |
29:41
|
|
and galvanized me, I guess, |
29:45
|
|
to do my work in a different way. |
29:48
|
|
And that was that I had come out of the south |
29:51
|
|
where mentoring kids and so forth and so on |
29:55
|
|
was just a part of our nature. |
30:00
|
|
I mean, you didn't even talk about it. |
30:01
|
|
You had a youth for a ... |
30:05
|
|
You know, kids knew that they had to keep secrets, |
30:06
|
|
I mean, you know it was all part of the fabric of our lives |
30:09
|
|
but when I got here, kids were so segregated from adults, |
30:12
|
|
and the ministries. |
30:17
|
|
Never shall the twain never meet. |
30:19
|
|
Or rarely, but so when I went down to Houston |
30:22
|
|
and we had to walk the gamut |
30:27
|
|
of all these horrible, white males calling us faggots |
30:29
|
|
and this, lesbos, and yadda yadda yah, |
30:34
|
|
and spitting at you and so forth. |
30:38
|
|
That took me back to my civil rights roots. |
30:41
|
| - |
Yes! |
30:45
|
| - |
Okay, so I'd done this walk before. |
30:47
|
| - |
Yes. |
30:48
|
| - |
Okay, for many other people it was terrifying. |
30:49
|
| - |
Right! |
30:52
|
| - |
And which is one reason why having black women |
30:53
|
|
particularly in the movement was so helpful, |
30:57
|
|
because we'd been there. |
31:01
|
| - |
Yes, yes. |
31:03
|
| - |
And so-- |
|
| - |
And this was Houston, the Lutheran Church-- |
31:06
|
| - |
No, this was the national conference |
31:08
|
|
to send women to our national conference |
31:14
|
|
of women's groups and everything, |
31:19
|
|
which then chose delegates to go |
31:21
|
|
to the first women's conference of the Decade. |
31:24
|
| - |
Oh, okay. |
31:30
|
| - |
Of the U.N. Decade. |
31:31
|
| - |
U.N. Decade, ok. |
31:31
|
| - |
And of course, Arvonne had been very, very instrumental |
31:32
|
|
in getting that Decade. |
31:38
|
| - |
Who had, I'm sorry? |
31:41
|
| - |
Arvonne Fraser. |
31:42
|
| - |
Arvonne Fraser, okay, got it. |
31:43
|
| - |
Yeah, so anyway, that was the step thing |
31:44
|
|
so all the states were choosing their people to go |
31:47
|
|
on to this. |
31:51
|
| - |
Yeah. |
31:52
|
| - |
So that was before we had a conference, okay? |
31:53
|
|
The religious conference, |
31:59
|
|
so unlike the civil rights movement |
32:01
|
|
where the church people were leading. |
32:03
|
| - |
Yes. |
32:05
|
| - |
In this case, the church people were following. |
32:08
|
| - |
Right. |
32:10
|
| - |
And really dragging their heels I might say. |
32:11
|
|
So anyway, I just wanted to quickly say that. |
32:15
|
|
So fast forward to the conference, |
32:18
|
|
there were people that I had known |
32:21
|
|
in this other place you see? |
32:25
|
| - |
Yes! |
32:28
|
| - |
Who were now in this religious space with me. |
32:29
|
| - |
Yes. |
32:32
|
| - |
And really there were a lot of women who were very, |
32:33
|
|
who had been very beat up by the church |
32:39
|
|
and the patriarchal nature of the churches. |
32:41
|
|
And so many of them had dropped off. |
32:45
|
|
I mean, they were no longer in churches. |
32:47
|
|
So this wasn't a place that you went to. |
32:51
|
| - |
Yes! |
32:55
|
| - |
In terms of the women's movement. |
32:56
|
|
This was a place that was pretty fraught with, |
32:58
|
|
with peril. |
33:03
|
| - |
Yes. |
|
| - |
So the women's movement got kind of a bad rap |
33:05
|
|
about being a, |
33:10
|
|
what am I trying to say? |
33:13
|
|
About being anti-church or so forth and so on. |
33:15
|
| - |
Which must have made Re-imagining very striking. |
33:20
|
| - |
Oh man, very striking. |
33:23
|
|
And that group of people were still fighting, |
33:27
|
|
you know, they hadn't gone any place. |
33:29
|
| - |
Yes, yes, yeah. |
33:32
|
| - |
They were still fighting. |
33:33
|
| - |
So, given your background, |
33:34
|
|
were you surprised at the reaction to Re-imagining? |
33:37
|
|
To the 1993 conference? |
33:40
|
| - |
I was, in a sense, because I thought we'd passed all that. |
33:42
|
| - |
Yeah. |
33:46
|
| - |
And I was surprised by that. |
33:49
|
| - |
Mm-hmm. |
|
|
And how do you account for it, |
33:55
|
|
as you think about it now, Vivian? |
33:56
|
| - |
Oh, that's an interesting question. |
33:58
|
|
I'm gonna give you a Bob Turre, Robert Turre answer. |
34:05
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| - |
Okay. |
34:08
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(laughing) |
34:09
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| - |
Which is that, as long as groups that are dispossessed |
34:10
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or oppressed don't coalesce, |
34:15
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in any way that the other, the majority sees as threatening |
34:19
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okay, they'll make deals with you. |
34:25
|
| - |
Right, yes. |
34:26
|
| - |
They'll do transactions. |
34:28
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But the minute you start to coalesce in numbers |
34:29
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that are uncomfortable? |
34:32
|
| - |
Yes! |
34:34
|
| - |
Then you threaten their |
34:35
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(chuckling) |
34:40
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How did he say that? |
34:44
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Well, let me just skip up. |
34:46
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We would say you threaten their privilege? |
34:48
|
| - |
Yeah. |
34:49
|
| - |
Okay, and this is a power move, |
34:50
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|
so whether or not you can deliver on it is irrelevant. |
34:53
|
| - |
Yeah. |
34:57
|
| - |
But it's just seen as a threat |
34:57
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|
and then people start organizing, |
34:59
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people start really trying to take it apart and so forth. |
35:01
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And you know, this was the point at which |
35:07
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just about, and I hate to say it, |
35:13
|
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just about every major movement |
35:15
|
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of our time has been attacked. |
35:19
|
| - |
Mm-hmm. |
|
| - |
You know, I read this morning this news about CIA |
35:24
|
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turning Nelson Mandela in. |
35:31
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I was so, |
35:34
|
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I thought I had seen and heard it all. |
35:36
|
| - |
Right, yes. |
35:39
|
| - |
With all that's been through the movement with Dr. King |
35:40
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and Hoover doing all his mad shenanigans. |
35:42
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But I was just, I have to say I was floored this morning. |
35:47
|
| - |
Yes! |
35:49
|
| - |
So that kind of, whenever you are threatening, |
35:51
|
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as Turre would say, or you're perceived |
35:56
|
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to be threatening institutions that the majority holds dear, |
36:00
|
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or needs, then you're expendable. |
36:05
|
| - |
Yeah, yeah. |
36:07
|
| - |
And you have to be stopped. |
36:08
|
| - |
Right. |
36:10
|
|
And from what you said earlier, |
36:10
|
|
it sounded like that the backlash wasn't as powerful |
36:11
|
|
in the Lutheran Church. |
36:15
|
| - |
It may have been but I, at that point, was not working |
36:16
|
|
in the Lutheran Church, I was back at the U. |
36:21
|
| - |
Sure. |
36:23
|
| - |
So, but as far as you know, the mentoring stuff, nah. |
36:24
|
| - |
Yes, yeah, yeah. |
36:28
|
|
So do you remember anything |
36:31
|
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about forming the Re-imagining community? |
36:33
|
|
Were you involved in that? |
36:35
|
| - |
Well, yes, I think that, as I recall, |
36:36
|
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people really began to see that this was, |
36:42
|
|
in and of itself, a movement. |
36:49
|
| - |
Yes! |
36:51
|
| - |
That it wasn't just kind of okay, |
36:53
|
|
let's have all the religious come together |
36:55
|
|
and see where we are, |
36:58
|
|
and I can tell that we're further ahead than you. |
36:59
|
|
(laughing) |
37:03
|
|
But it really, I think, was |
37:07
|
|
for most people, the first time |
37:13
|
|
that they really saw that working, |
37:16
|
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in this issue. |
37:22
|
| - |
This issue being women's? |
37:26
|
| - |
Women and their roles in the Church. |
37:27
|
| - |
Yes. |
37:33
|
| - |
And so I think for, |
37:35
|
|
that as we began to see that people needed to be supported. |
37:39
|
| - |
Yes! |
37:42
|
| - |
People were losing jobs! |
37:43
|
|
I was like what? |
37:44
|
| - |
Yeah. |
37:45
|
| - |
Really? |
37:46
|
| - |
I know. |
|
| - |
Yeah, and the three of us at our college, back in '70, |
37:48
|
|
where was that? |
37:53
|
|
It was in the late '70s. |
37:55
|
|
We had won our case. |
37:57
|
| - |
The Augsberg case. |
37:58
|
| - |
The Augsberg case. |
37:59
|
| - |
Did you? |
38:00
|
|
Wow, that's great. |
38:01
|
| - |
We were on our way to winning it, |
38:02
|
|
and then the (laughing) civil rights department guy |
38:03
|
|
flew in here from Chicago and spent a week here on campus. |
38:08
|
|
And they thought that they were free |
38:14
|
|
from any kind of restraint |
38:17
|
|
because we were a religious institution. |
38:18
|
|
Well when he pointed, as he looked at all contracts |
38:21
|
|
and this and that and all the things, we had no idea. |
38:23
|
|
Then he pointed out to us, says if you had taken one dime |
38:26
|
|
from the federal government you were covered. |
38:29
|
| - |
Oh really? |
38:32
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
And we had just built a second dorm using federal money |
38:34
|
|
and not to mention all this other stuff, |
38:37
|
|
so we were covered. |
38:40
|
|
And as it turned out, |
38:42
|
|
they started a committee on Sibley, |
38:47
|
|
Dr. Sibley was who I was trying to remember. |
38:53
|
| - |
Oh, okay. |
38:55
|
| - |
Mulford Q. Sibley who was, |
38:56
|
|
Mulford Sibley was probably |
39:00
|
|
one of the most famous professors at the U. |
39:03
|
|
He did research work, |
39:06
|
|
God in the '40s, on race. |
39:10
|
|
What was the famous race study? |
39:14
|
|
I can't remember it. |
39:17
|
|
Gosh, one of the former presidents of Harvard had been |
39:21
|
|
part of that, and one of my professors had too. |
39:24
|
|
Golly, I can't think of the study, but it's very famous. |
39:31
|
|
Anyway, so Mulford was really somebody |
39:36
|
|
and I feel like, even yet, |
39:41
|
|
privileged that I got to know him, |
39:47
|
|
and that we were together standing on the steps together |
39:50
|
| - |
That is wonderful. |
39:55
|
| - |
For gay rights. |
|
| - |
Yes, yes! |
39:56
|
| - |
Oh, you know and this was the thing. |
39:57
|
|
So I would volunteer for things nobody else wanted to do. |
39:59
|
|
So the first state study on discrimination |
40:04
|
|
against gay people had come |
40:09
|
|
to the Department of Human Rights. |
40:11
|
|
The then Commissioner really didn't want anything |
40:14
|
|
to do with it, so he passed it over |
40:18
|
|
to the women's advisory. |
40:21
|
| - |
Oh, really? |
40:24
|
| - |
Really. |
|
|
And so the question was thrown out to us, |
40:26
|
|
well, I'm sure nobody in here wants to do that, |
40:30
|
|
but anybody interested? |
40:32
|
|
And of course, |
40:34
|
|
(talking and laughing drowns out speech) |
40:35
|
|
So we hired a wonderful researcher |
40:38
|
|
who also was gay and did a wonderful report. |
40:42
|
| - |
That is great. |
40:47
|
|
Oh, that is great. |
40:49
|
| - |
Now, as it turns out, it was all about men. |
40:50
|
| - |
Oh. |
40:54
|
| - |
Okay? |
|
| - |
Mm-hmm. |
40:55
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
|
It was like really? |
40:57
|
|
Are you going to go to barber shops? |
41:00
|
|
Well there wasn't any place for gay women. |
41:02
|
|
There were no clubs, there were no anything like that |
41:04
|
|
at that point. |
41:06
|
|
So that movement came along |
41:08
|
|
behind this movement but anyway. |
41:12
|
| - |
Boy, you were involved in so many important movements. |
41:16
|
|
And talk about intersectionality. |
41:19
|
|
You really lived it. |
41:20
|
| - |
I lived it, so back to this thing though. |
41:22
|
|
Knowing that people needed support |
41:25
|
|
and that the larger religious faith community, |
41:29
|
|
the national faith community had to see |
41:34
|
|
that this wasn't a what? |
41:36
|
|
A shot in the, what do they call it? |
41:40
|
| - |
A flash in the pan. |
41:42
|
| - |
Flash in the pan. |
41:43
|
| - |
Yes! |
41:44
|
| - |
Yes, and that, I learned long ago, |
41:45
|
|
has nothing to do with skillets. |
41:47
|
| - |
Oh! |
41:49
|
| - |
Flash in the pan, you know a putter pan? |
41:50
|
| - |
Oh is that it? |
41:53
|
|
Oh, that's great, that is great. |
41:54
|
|
How did feminist theology affect the structure |
41:57
|
|
and functioning of the Re-imagining community, |
41:59
|
|
would you say? |
42:01
|
| - |
I'd say that it was the lifeblood of it truly. |
42:03
|
| - |
And how'd it manifest itself? |
42:07
|
| - |
Well in that I think people were stronger, |
42:09
|
|
I think people had a place where they could speak |
42:14
|
|
without fear and really help one another. |
42:18
|
|
I really think it created that space |
42:26
|
|
for us to be able to move up. |
42:29
|
| - |
And what kind of challenges would you say |
42:32
|
|
the community faced during its 10 years? |
42:33
|
| - |
Oh, there were many. |
42:36
|
| - |
Yeah. |
|
| - |
There were many. |
42:38
|
|
One was losing your job, obviously. |
42:39
|
| - |
Great, yes. |
42:43
|
| - |
And another was not being taken seriously |
42:45
|
|
or how to say it? |
42:50
|
|
Being sidelined as one of those bra-burning feminists. |
42:55
|
|
And so people either expected you to burn your bra, |
43:01
|
|
(laughing) |
43:06
|
|
Or they, |
43:10
|
|
it was almost like, |
43:14
|
|
what was it almost like it was? |
43:18
|
|
People who were being, |
43:22
|
|
I called it tortured, on their jobs and such. |
43:26
|
|
They didn't have any support. |
43:30
|
|
They didn't have any place to go with it. |
43:31
|
| - |
Right. |
43:33
|
| - |
And especially religious folks. |
43:34
|
| - |
Yeah, yeah. |
43:36
|
|
So, the churches weren't taking them seriously? |
43:38
|
|
Is that who you mean? |
43:41
|
| - |
Some weren't. |
43:42
|
| - |
Yeah, yeah. |
43:42
|
| - |
Some were just kinda like let's just pretend |
43:43
|
|
they are not here. |
43:48
|
|
If we just ignore them long enough, they will go away. |
43:51
|
|
(laughing) |
43:53
|
|
Can I get some more water from you? |
43:56
|
| - |
Oh, okay, sure, sure. |
43:57
|
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