Nelsen, Vivian

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-	Well, Vivian, thank you very much	0:01
	for your willingness to be interviewed,	0:02
	and if I could just get some background information.	0:04
	If you could say your full name.	0:07
-	Okay, Vivian Jenkins Nelsen,	0:08
	and Nelsen is spelled N-E-L-S-E-N.	0:10
-	Oh, thank you. That's very helpful. (laughs)	0:13
	And are you lay or clergy?	0:16
-	I'm lay. In the Lutheran Church, I'm a lay preacher.	0:18
-	Oh, okay. Great!	0:25
	And so, that's your denominational affiliation, then.	0:28
-	That was, when I was part of the community	0:30
	up until recently, actually,	0:33
	and I'm now Presbyterian.	0:35
-	Good, thank you so much.	0:37
	And Vivian, when and where were you born?	0:39
	I was born in Selma, Alabama in 1945.	0:43
-	Mmm.	0:47
-	Yeah.
-	Very interesting. And where did you go	0:49
	to grad school or divinity school?	0:51
-	I went to graduate school, and I took course work at	0:53
	Luther and also in my college,	0:59
	which was a Lutheran college.	1:03
-	Which college did you go to?	1:05
-	Dana. D-A-N-A.	1:06
-	Oh, where's...
-	And that's Latin for Denmark.	1:08
	And that was in Blair, Nebraska.	1:10
-	Okay.	1:13
-	And, so anyway, I built a religion minor.	1:14
	I was thinking of the time of	1:18
	first going into our diaconate,	1:21
	which my dad was very interested in as a pastor.	1:23
	And instead, I did medical drawings and such	1:27
	for their New Guinea work.	1:31
-	Interesting!	1:34
	So what did you do your graduate work in?	1:36
-	I did my graduate work in Educational Psychology at The U,	1:38
	and also at Harvard University.	1:43
-	Wow, interesting!	1:47
	So, what kind of work or ministry where you doing	1:49
	at the time of Re-Imagining?	1:51
-	At the time of Re-Imagining in 1993,	1:52
	I had left work as	1:58
	an executive for the American Lutheran Church,	2:03
	and I was back at The U.	2:08
-	Mmm. And what were you doing at The U?	2:11
-	At The U, I headed up the human relations department	2:12
	for undergrads,	2:16
	and then I went Hamline, and then I went back to U.	2:17
-	Okay.	2:23
-	Doing the same thing.
-	Doing the same thing, yeah.	2:25
	And what kind of work or ministry did you do	2:26
	after Re-Imagining?	2:28
-	Well, after Re-Imagining,	2:30
	I got more interested in public policy,	2:31
	and that was really the gift of the civil rights movement	2:36
	that my dad was involved in.	2:40
	So, and that's the tedious grinding work	2:42
	that has to be done.	2:47
	And so, my doctor was initially on ethics	2:49
	and moral development, using the Kohlberg scale	2:56
	of race and gender issues in the Church.	3:01
	And so, as it turned out,	3:08
	I got ill during graduate school.	3:12
	I had to have major surgery, so I never did finish it,	3:15
	but it was a very...	3:17
	It was a very interesting living,	3:22
	an interesting direction, which is	3:24
	studying how people learn moral and ethical behavior.	3:28
	How they unlearn it and how they relearn it.	3:35
-	Wow.	3:38
-	So, everything that I was dealing with the	3:39
	whole palette of diversity issues	3:43
	on the desk that I had been on,	3:47
	and then that went on into my graduate work	3:50
	and then, that went on into my work work.	3:52
	So, being at the Humphrey was challenging	3:55
	because that shut down the whole fate side of the work.	4:03
-	You were at the Humphrey Institute.	4:08
-	Yeah.	4:09
-	Yeah, yeah.
	Very fascinating, wow!	4:11
	So, how and when did you first become aware	4:13
	of feminist theology?	4:17
-	Oh gosh, that was	4:19
	I would say early, no,	4:23
	it had to be mid-70s.	4:27
	And that movement was bubbling up nationally	4:30
	and also inside of our denomination.	4:34
-	Yes, yeah.	4:36
	So, do you remember how you got exposed to it in particular?	4:37
-	In particular, yes.	4:40
	In a nutshell, there was a woman writer,	4:41
	and I'm blanking out her name now,	4:48
	who wrote a seminal book, who's Lutheran,	4:50
	who wrote a seminal book on theology,	4:52
	and I was on the desk that	4:56
	dealt with women's role in the Church.	5:02
	And so, the first woman was ordained	5:07
	shortly before I got to that desk.	5:12
-	Wow.	5:14
-	Yeah.
	And, so then, there was all of the work to do	5:15
	with helping churches now make this change	5:21
	and so forth and so on.	5:25
	And, actually, there's a book about it,	5:26
	which is called In Our Mother's Arms.	5:29
-	Oh!	5:31
-	A wonderful steal from that great old hymn.	5:33
-	Yes, yes!	5:38
	So that this point, it was before the ELCA.	5:39
	So which branch was this you were working for.	5:43
-	This was ALC.	5:44
-	ALC, okay.	5:45
-	American Lutheran Church.	5:46
-	Right, right.	5:47
-	And this was basically a Nordic branch, Norwegians,	5:48
	and the Germans were in Iowa.	5:52
	And their seminary was there.	5:55
	And Luther was really the seminary	5:57
	where everybody went if they could	6:01
	because it was the biggest.	6:05
-	Right, right, yeah.	6:07
	I know we need to move to Re-Imagining,	6:08
	but I just wanted to hear a little bit more	6:10
	about your work with the women's division of the ALC.	6:11
	Tell me what that was like because that's important.	6:15
-	Yeah, it was very challenging.	6:17
	That seems to be my work for today,	6:19
	but the Women's Auxiliary is something different.	6:21
	So, the Women's Auxiliary, which was	6:28
	the, in other...	6:37
	We would call it in the Missouri Synod the Ladies' Aid.	6:41
-	Okay, I got it, yup.	6:45
-	And so, they were not particularly interested	6:46
	or connected with this part of the work,	6:51
	although there was a really good person	6:54
	who was in charge.	6:57
	So, my role was really more, you know,	6:59
	meeting with bishops, holding conferences,	7:05
	that sort of thing, bringing in speakers, you know,	7:08
	doing workshops, etc.	7:12
	Trying to get people more accepting of this	7:13
	role for woman.	7:17
	And, of course, the Lutheran women in Europe,	7:19
	particularly in Denmark, I knew most about,	7:23
	and eventually were ahead of us.	7:26
-	Mmm, Mm-hmm. Yeah, interesting.	7:28
	That's facsinating.	7:32
	Well, talk about the Re-Imagining community.	7:33
	So, could you talk about your relationship	7:35
	to the Re-Imagining community?	7:38
-	You know, it was good.	7:40
	I had been through kind of the turmoil	7:43
	that this work experienced earlier,	7:49
	so it wasn't new to me.	7:56
	And the fact that I worked within	7:59
	the church hierarchy gave me a certain amount of cover	8:07
	that other people didn't enjoy.	8:12
	And so, I was in a recognized power position,	8:15
	so, I was sent to	8:22
	the United Nations Decade for Women meetings	8:30
	and wrote essays on such for those conferences I was in.	8:35
	When it was in Copenhagen,	8:42
	the bishop gave me the keys to the newest church	8:45
	so we could have meetings there.	8:48
-	Wow, how cool!	8:49
-	So, it was really great, and a great experience.	8:51
	And one of the women I met there,	8:55
	she and I are still dear friends.	8:58
	In fact, she spent two weeks with me recently.	9:00
-	How nice.	9:03
-	And she's a Lutheran pastor,	9:04
	and also an attorney, interestingly.	9:06
-	Wow!	9:10
-	Both her sisters are attorneys.	9:11
	But the long and short of that is that	9:13
	the Church gave me access	9:16
	to other women in other countries,	9:19
	so I was able to have a vision that was	9:21
	in fact real in other places.	9:25
	It wasn't just, well, this is what we think it could be.	9:27
-	Right!	9:30
-	It already was.	9:31
-	Yes!
-	And one of my favorite theologians that I had	9:33
	great good luck to study with...	9:37
	(ringtone)	9:42
	Oh, excuse me, I need to take this. Hello!	9:43

-	And actually, it didn't have a name	0:00
	but my mother was really key in my understanding	0:04
	of women and equality, because she was,	0:09
	she was a soldier, let me tell you.	0:12
-	Was she?	0:15
-	Oh, yeah.
-	Tell me in what way?	0:16
	What was she like?	0:17
-	In every way.	0:18
	I'm telling you, she ...	0:18
	I was gonna turn this off here so we don't hear that.	0:20
	Mom came from a generation of women who were alive	0:26
	and cognizant.	0:31
	She was born in 1913.	0:32
-	Wow.
-	She died at 103.	0:35
-	Oh, wow.	0:36
-	And she was sharp up until almost the very end.	0:38
-	That's wonderful.	0:41
-	So anyway, the long and short of that is she	0:43
	and Dad were missionaries.	0:49
	And they were in, they were teaching, preaching,	0:51
	and she was also, she was a teacher-nurse.	0:55
	So she had come up.	0:58
	Her family had money,	1:02
	and they sent her to a private high school and college,	1:06
	and so they were,	1:10
	how to put this?	1:16
	She would have been just a kid during the,	1:20
	a little, small kid really, during the feminist era,	1:25
	but in the rural boondocks,	1:28
	I mean, everybody had to work like nobody's business.	1:33
	Nobody got cut any slack,	1:37
	and she said she still remembered children dragging bags	1:39
	of cotton behind them.	1:42
-	Wow, is this in Alabama?	1:44
-	Alabama.	1:45
-	Yeah, wow.
-	And she was from South Carolina.	1:46
-	Okay.	1:48
-	And so my dad's people are from Alabama so ...	1:49
	But anyway so, long and short,	1:54
	they were just out in the boonies with each other	1:57
	and so there really wasn't any ...	1:59
	I mean, her ideas were shaped by what she could do	2:03
	and she could do a lot of things.	2:06
	And she also had been a kid who they,	2:09
	she was raised by older sisters,	2:16
	who didn't have kids.	2:18
	I mean, she was raised in New York City	2:21
	so she was used to speaking out.	2:25
	Of course, Harlem at that time was going	2:28
	through the renaissance,	2:30
-	Oh, yes.
-	So that was a place where she flowered really.	2:32
-	Wow, how wonderful!	2:38
-	And so then when she met my dad,	2:40
	and they decided to go back as missionaries,	2:43
	you know, that time, that era, for black women	2:47
	was really interesting because they were being educated too,	2:53
	you see, along with black men and so forth.	2:57
	So anyway, she also was a runner,	3:01
	and she made the Olympics tryouts.	3:05
-	Wow!	3:10
-	Apparently her mother wouldn't let her go,	3:11
	because Hitler.	3:12
-	Oh, yes!
	Wow!	3:15
	Oh Vivian, that is amazing!	3:17
	Were your parents missionaries, you mentioned Guinea,	3:20
	is that where it was?	3:22
-	No, no, actually the New Guinea connection is	3:23
	that when I was considering the deaconate.	3:25
-	Okay.	3:29
-	Our sisterhood.	3:30
	I decided not to go but to help them,	3:31
	and they needed a handbook that would translate	3:34
	from English to Pidgin,	3:40
	and would be pictures of things that they could,	3:44
	that they worked with, that they needed.	3:47
	I can remember clear as anything,	3:50
	drawing a picture of a kidney-shaped bowl,	3:51
	and that kind of stuff.	3:54
-	Oh, wow.	3:56
-	Yeah, and forceps and things like that they needed	3:57
	to explain.	3:59
	But anyway, so that was my (laughing)	4:01
	that was my pre-Peace Corps.	4:05
	And then we had something called	4:08
	the Prince of Peace Corps,	4:10
	and it was, of course, spun of off the real one,	4:13
	the Peace Corps, but I applied for the Peace Corps	4:17
	and I was accepted to Afghanistan.	4:20
-	Really?	4:22
-	Mm-hmm.
	In those days the Secret Service cleared you,	4:27
	and it was an all-day test at the post office.	4:30
	And so anyway, Eugene Burdick who wrote The Ugly American	4:34
	had come to our campus,	4:37
	and just practically the whole campus was like ...	4:39
	We had more Peace Corps volunteers from that little college	4:42
	than any other school in Nebraska.	4:45
-	Seriously.	4:47
-	And so I was on my way to Afghanistan,	4:49
	and one of my dearest friends was in Turkey,	4:52
	and he came back and said, "Oh no, no.	4:54
	"You can't do that."	4:56
	(laughing)	4:57
	"And as outspoken as you are, no."	4:59
	(laughing)	5:00
	But, as it turned out I didn't have to make the decision	5:01
	because the Afghan government said they didn't want us.	5:04
-	Is that right?	5:07
-	Yeah, they shut that down.	5:08
-	Wow, Vivian that's fascinating.	5:11
	Do you know, where you left off was you were talking	5:12
	about studying with one of your favorite theologians.	5:14
	Who was that?	5:18
-	One of my favorites was,	5:19
	her name was Mrs. Hauge, H-A-U-G-E.	5:21
	Her husband was dead by the time I knew her,	5:26
	but the Hauge Honors were a section of the Danish church.	5:30
-	Oh!	5:34
-	Yeah, and so our thing is that she wanted to be a pastor	5:35
	in the church and the last I heard,	5:41
	she had gone back to Denmark.	5:43
	She wasn't ever, I don't know what her family history was.	5:45
	I know she was Danish but she went back to Denmark	5:48
	and married a Danish dairy farmer,	5:52
	and was ordained in the Danish church.	5:58
-	Oh, wonderful!	6:03
-	Yeah.
-	That's great!	6:05
-	Yeah.
-	So, pass over the water here.	6:08
	We're getting some water here.	6:10
-	Yeah, don't wanna pour this over your machinery.	6:12
-	Yeah, good point.	6:14
-	Okay, I'll let you get it.	6:15
-	Good.
	How did you get initially involved in Re-imagining?	6:17
	You mentioned, well what was the connection?	6:20
	The Ecumenical Deaconate?	6:22
-	Yeah, the connection was that I had been at that desk	6:23
	and we were located here in town.	6:26
	The Lutheran National, the Lutheran Church.	6:29
-	Oh, okay.	6:31
-	And we did a lot of conferencing and so forth and so on,	6:32
	plus I'd gone to the Decade,	6:34
	two of the three Decade meetings,	6:37
	the beginning and the middle.	6:40
	And I wasn't able to get to the one in Africa,	6:42
	my brother died the week before I was supposed to go.	6:46
	So I couldn't go, but anyway.	6:50
	So basically, and also in that interim,	6:53
	I became ...	7:00
	What can I say?	7:06
	I became chair of the Women's Equity Action League,	7:10
	which Arvonne Fraser was the national president,	7:17
	and had been state chair and that was the women's	7:20
	legal side of the movement.	7:26
-	Really?	7:28
-	Yeah.
	And so that's when I got to know people like Jenny,	7:29
	who was head of NOW and so forth.	7:32
	And those were the two big feminist organizations,	7:34
	so I tried, and did bring in more black women	7:40
	to the movement because, at that point,	7:45
	we had really been told in no uncertain terms	7:47
	that the feminist movement was a white women's movement	7:55
	and it was anti-black male and yadda, yadda, yah.	7:58
-	So who was telling you that?	8:01
-	Oh well, let me see here.	8:03
	Just about every black male.	8:06
	(laughing)	8:07
	So and, I tell you,	8:08
	it was like I was being pilloried in the black newspaper	8:13
	because I was destroying the black family	8:20
	because I stood on the steps of Morrill Hall	8:22
	with Jack Baker and Dr.,	8:25
	oh gosh, what is his name?	8:31
	He's long dead now, but ...	8:33
	Oh, gosh if I could say the name now you would know it,	8:39
	but anyway, he was a very, very well-known professor	8:41
	of sociology at the U.	8:47
	But anyway, long and short, the headline indicated	8:51
	that I was destroying the black family.	8:56
	(laughing)	8:59
	I'm standing with a gay male.	9:00
-	Really?
-	Oh yeah.	9:03
-	Wow.
-	So yeah.	9:04
-	How were the white feminists?	9:05
	Were they, what was their attitude?	9:07
-	Well their attitude was they were pretty much happy	9:10
	as long as I didn't talk about race.	9:13
-	Oh, mm-hmm.	9:15
-	But that wasn't gonna happen so.	9:17
	(laughing)	9:18
-	Good!	9:19
-	So, people who I knew then,	9:21
	who got it, like Jenny, we're still friends	9:27
	after all these years.	9:31
-	Jenny, who was head of NOW?	9:32
-	Yeah.
-	Yeah, yes.	9:34
-	And we were actually, we were meeting with Walter Mondale	9:36
	to talk about ...	9:39
	One of them I convinced to come into our meetings	9:41
	so she could see that we were	9:45
	really bringing class-action suits.	9:48
	That's how we were really doing our work.	9:52
	That also covered other protected classes.	9:53
	So, for example, one of the cases	10:02
	that we brought very successfully about was,	10:05
	at least in the metro area, was public schools.	10:07
	A certain amount of money that was being spent	10:12
	on girls' sports as opposed to boys' sports.	10:15
-	Oh, yes, yes!	10:19
-	And also another one we brought was about,	10:21
	which covered all girls.	10:27
-	Mmm, yes.	10:29
-	Yeah.
	And so, then we brought another one	10:31
	that really affected black males as well,	10:34
	and we were intentional about that,	10:39
	was about the number of people who were coaches	10:40
	and who were assistant principals,	10:47
	because mostly that track into coaching came	10:50
	through the assistant principal.	10:53
-	Is that right?	10:55
-	Yeah.
	So, learning to do analysis was, and working from that side,	10:56
	made me more interested, of course, in public policy	11:02
	because we were doing things like	11:05
	going through every statute in Minnesota,	11:08
	to look at one of them.	11:11
	Every one of them to see how they were disproportionately	11:13
	either loaded against women or holding, et cetera.	11:20
	I mean, we did things like ...	11:25
	We did a study with a bunch of college students	11:28
	for WCCO-TV's, their licensure.	11:33
-	Mmm!	11:39
-	So we looked at every program, we looked at every ad,	11:40
	oh, it was just amazing.	11:43
-	Wow, that's massive, wow.	11:45
-	So research is kinda my middle name here and I love it.	11:46
	It tells the story of a lot of policy work.	11:51
	A lot of it isn't based on any research,	12:01
	or bad science, or a combination of all of the above.	12:04
-	Right.	12:08
-	But so, that was very satisfying.	12:09
-	Important work.	12:12
	So were you involved in the actual planning	12:14
	of the '93 conference?	12:16
-	No, no, I was a participant	12:19
	and had a bunch of people there.	12:21
-	Mmm, I would love to hear what you remember	12:24
	about the '93 conference.	12:28
	I know it's been a while but what was your impression?	12:29
-	Well, my impression was that I had read the work	12:32
	of almost all the speakers.	12:34
-	Yes!	12:36
	(laughing)	12:37
-	So, it was just grand to hear them, see them,	12:38
	you know, talk to them.	12:43
	I mean, it was just,	12:47
	it was like all my feminist bucket list stuff.	12:49
	(laughing)	12:54
	Had come true, you know.	12:55
-	Right, yes!	12:57
-	And to actually respond to one of the speakers,	12:58
	and I'm trying to think of what her name was.	13:02
	I'm so bad on names today.	13:03
	But anyway, and ...	13:06
	And my student who, Rene Whiterabbit,	13:10
-	Yes!	13:15
-	Was also on that panel.	13:16
-	Right, yes!
-	And it was the speaker, her and me.	13:19
-	Oh, oh.	13:21
-	Yeah, so we were looking at color	13:23
	and what people call intersections now.	13:24
-	Right!	13:28
-	And really trying to see how we could	13:31
	work inside of	13:37
	ethnic groups that	13:41
	really felt quite threatened by the movement and so forth.	13:45
	And then now they had to meet at a church.	13:48
	(laughing)	13:51
-	Wait, what do you mean they had to meet at a church?	13:52
-	You know, it was one thing to be out in the streets	13:53
	and about, and at your work.	13:55
	The law has changed around women and what you can do	13:58
	and so forth.	14:01
-	Right.	14:02
-	But it's quite another thing to meet it at church.	14:03
	Church is the most segregated power.	14:05
-	Exactly.	14:07
-	And it's not just for race either.	14:08
	I mean, I'm in 150-year-old congregation	14:11
	and I remember clearly,	14:14
	clearly when the first woman clergy came	14:17
	to that congregation.	14:20
-	Is that right?	14:22
-	She's a dear friend.	14:24
	I was just seeing her yesterday.	14:25
	She was in rehab from a fall, but anyway, yeah, oh yeah.	14:26
	And all of the angst	14:31
	and preaching and da-de-da-de-da,	14:35
	and all that and people dropping off	14:38
	and the things they said to her were just outrageous.	14:39
-	Oh, oh.	14:44
-	Yeah, so, but she was a, as I said,	14:45
	she was a good soldier,	14:48
	(laughing)	14:49
-	Yes!
-	She pushed all the way through it and the fact	14:51
	that the church says that you have to do something	14:55
	doesn't mean congregations are going to do it.	14:57
-	Exactly.	15:00
-	So you know, being on that end of it,	15:01
	it was interesting too.	15:05
	I had forgotten this but my friend Una from Denmark was here	15:07
	and she was saying, "You preached a very good sermon	15:11
	"when you came to Denmark."	15:15
	And I had forgotten all about it.	15:17
	She had invited me,	15:19
	you know when you're on these U.N. conferences,	15:21
	they're a month long.	15:23
-	Really?	15:25
-	Mm-hmm.
	And so you have to have either,	15:26
	you have to have your own resources	15:28
	or you have to be sent by somebody,	15:31
	because who ...	15:36
	You know what I'm saying.	15:37
	You go and spend a month.	15:39
-	That's incredible.	15:40
-	And so anyway, as it turned out,	15:41
	she said, "Do you remember about what I told you	15:45
	"about the prayers?"	15:49
	I said, yeah that part I remember.	15:50
	Denmark has a minimum, at that time,	15:53
	they had 14 different political parties.	15:56
	And they all got equal time.	15:59
-	Wow.	16:01
-	Yeah.
	And there was one, I think there may have been two,	16:02
	one or two debates on TV, that was it.	16:06
	That was it.	16:10
	I mean, people weren't taking signs.	16:11
	You didn't see all this stuff on the ...	16:13
	There were no ads and things like that.	16:16
	It was just, that was it.	16:19
	If you couldn't tell your story then, the end.	16:21
	You were done for.	16:23
	So anyway, this one pastor who was,	16:25
	she was a Communist and one Sunday she,	16:30
	in a country where pastors are civil servants,	16:36
	just like the postmen, and organists too, as well.	16:42
	And all their major universities have theological stuff	16:48
	in them and so forth.	16:52
	And so for someone to say that they were not gonna follow	16:56
	the order of service,	17:02
	becomes a matter of law here.	17:04
-	Oh!	17:06
-	Okay, so there is no separation of church	17:07
	and state in all.	17:10
-	Right.	17:12
-	So I was like really?	17:13
	And this Communist pastor had decided she wasn't going	17:14
	to pray for the Queen and her ladies-in-waiting	17:17
	and the knights.	17:20
	(laughing)	17:22
	And they were threatening to put her in jail!	17:24
	(laughing)	17:26
-	Wow!	17:27
-	And so, well that whole memory of all of that	17:30
	and she said, I remember she said,	17:34
	"I told you."	17:35
	She said, "Please, please, please you have to pray	17:37
	"for the Queen."	17:38
	(laughing)	17:40
	I don't have any problem praying for your Queen.	17:42
	(laughing)	17:44
-	Oh, that's wild, it is.	17:46
-	But yeah, so by that point,	17:48
	I was very active in the Women's Equity Action League,	17:54
	and active with higher ed folks,	17:58
	and you know,	18:03
	earlier the three of us had,	18:08
	we were at Augsberg and I was just a young pup	18:13
	starting my,	18:16
	(chuckling)	18:17
	Starting my teaching career	18:18
	and three of us ended up being discriminated against	18:23
	and we were in different departments,	18:26
	and so we didn't know	18:28
	that we were being discriminated against	18:30
	until one of my students, who was a young black man,	18:32
	did a cover story with our three pictures, saying,	18:36
	and the headline said something like	18:40
	lions three, Christians nothing.	18:45
-	Oh really?	18:48
	(laughing)	18:49
	So how were you being discriminated against?	18:51
	What was revealed?	18:52
-	Oh what was revealed in my case, let's see,	18:53
	what was revealed was that they were giving, quote, men,	18:56
	who were quote, heads of households, more money than women.	19:01
-	Oh!	19:05
-	And so my colleague, who he and I started the same day,	19:06
	same department, neither of us had kids,	19:09
	we were both married,	19:13
	and I was working much harder than him.	19:16
	He was not teaching and I was teaching	19:19
	and working as a staff member and head of a program.	19:22
-	Wow.	19:26
-	And he was just doing his counseling work	19:27
	and going to have coffee.	19:30
	And so one day,	19:33
	I answered the phone and someone said	19:37
	on the other end, they were doing a credit check for,	19:39
	I knew he was buying a car, for I'll say Tom, whatever.	19:43
	That is not his name but anyway,	19:49
	and could I verify that he was making X amount of dollars.	19:52
	Well it was $5,000 more than I was making.	19:55
-	Wow!	19:58
-	And my husband was going to graduate school,	19:59
	and like, I said, I said to the person,	20:03
	I hope to God not and hung up the phone.	20:06
	(laughing)	20:08
	I was kind of a hothead.	20:13
-	Yes!	20:14
	(laughing)	20:15
	Well, that's terrible.	20:16
-	Mm-hmm, yeah.
	So then when I brought that to my director of our department	20:22
	he said, "Oh well, he's a head of a household."	20:27
	I said so am I.	20:29
	What are you talking about?	20:31
	Oh no, that was head of household.	20:32
	And then I discovered that, at the time,	20:34
	that teachers who marry each other?	20:36
-	Mm-hmm.	20:41
-	Her, in Minneapolis, her salary dropped.	20:42
-	Oh my goodness!	20:46
-	Okay.	20:48
	I was like no, huh-uh, this can't happen.	20:49
	I ended up testifying up at the legislature about it.	20:51
	I just couldn't let ...	20:54
	I'm kinda like a dog with a bone.	20:55
	(laughing)	20:56
-	Oh good for you!	21:01
-	They did change that.	21:03
-	They did change, yeah, yeah.	21:04
-	But you know, one of the things,	21:06
	one of the lessons I learned early in seeing my parents,	21:07
	my mother particularly,	21:12
	is that you have to show up.	21:14
-	Mm-hmm, yes.	21:17
-	You have to show up	21:18
	and if they're gonna do something tricky,	21:19
	they were always doing tricky stuff in the south,	21:21
	trying to keep people out of stuff.	21:24
-	Right.	21:25
-	So if they said the committee meeting was going	21:26
	to be at 11:30 at night, you show up at 11:30 at night.	21:29
	And things did happen that way.	21:32
-	Yes.	21:34
-	I went to a meeting at midnight,	21:34
	and so we'd have to have relays like somebody would be	21:37
	up there and say, "Okay now, there it's coming up	21:39
	"in about two hours."	21:43
	And you'd get out of your jammies and get in the car and go.	21:45
-	Wow!	21:48
-	So we were on the front lines of all that stuff	21:49
	and so if anything, I have to say that the whole ...	21:52
	Well there was this tension between feminism and womanism.	22:00
-	Right.	22:04
-	At the time of the conference.	22:04
-	Yes, say something about that, yes.	22:06
-	Okay, so black feminists were pushed,	22:08
	or black women who had any sensibilities around this issue	22:12
	were pushed very hard into a different place	22:15
	so that they were not ...	22:18
	You know, your blackness was at stake	22:20
	if you were with the white women's movement.	22:22
	Anyway, so the womanist movement gave black theologians,	22:28
	female theologians, a place to stand, place to be.	22:34
-	Right, right.	22:37
-	And so people were very, very,	22:39
	what's the word?	22:45
	The word feminist was like a bad word.	22:47
	And in a funny way, it still is with young women, today.	22:51
-	Yes.	22:54
-	And I wanna say, and they think they just fell	22:55
	into this stuff, but it's like no, huh-uh.	22:57
	And one of the things that ...	23:01
	You know, it was a hard left, if you will,	23:07
	and that's both theological and political.	23:12
	It was a hard left to accept that God,	23:17
	and the Godhead, for those of us who are Trinitarians,	23:20
	that one piece of God could be like half the creation.	23:25
-	Mm-hmm, right, right.	23:31
-	In spite of the fact that the proverbs	23:33
	and the wisdom literature had always been translated	23:37
	and heard and seen with effeminate ...	23:40
	With a whole, if you didn't clear it out,	23:48
	which some German theologians were very good at doing.	23:52
	Which is why the King James is used so ...	23:57
	I mean, you know, if you didn't translate it out,	24:01
	it's there.	24:05
-	Yeah, yeah, yeah.	24:06
-	I mean, the Godhead has she in it.	24:07
-	Right.	24:09
	So Vivian, how did you negotiate that,	24:11
	the feminist/womanist?	24:14
	You're kinda in the middle there, what did you do?	24:16
	How'd you handle it?	24:17
-	Well you know, basically I didn't see any	24:18
	real difference between the two.	24:23
	To me, it was just a matter of semantics.	24:27
	And the womanist tradition, I think,	24:31
	like I said, it gave people a place to stand.	24:37
	I didn't need a place to stand.	24:39
	I was already standing there,	24:40
	with my denomination and so forth, you see.	24:43
-	Right.	24:45
-	So by the time that conference had happened,	24:48
	we had had women in clergy for 20 years.	24:50
-	Yes, yes, you've been involved in supporting that.	24:53
	So at the conference, you talked about the speakers	24:56
	and responding.	24:59
	Are there any other particular moments from that conference?	25:01
-	I do remember just looking out	25:04
	and it was a pretty vast crowd.	25:10
	And just looking out and thinking	25:13
	oh my God there are all these people,	25:15
	who think the same way.	25:18
	I mean, because you know,	25:19
	so much of what my experience had been was	25:23
	creating it myself,	25:26
	or helping other people, helping other people to do work.	25:30
	And it was an uphill battle,	25:35
	because we were in the most conservative part of the church.	25:37
-	Mm-hmm.	25:44
-	And so when we would go to national meetings and stuff,	25:46
	which I continued to do after I left and went back to the U,	25:51
	was really, was really tough.	25:57
	I mean, it's taken a tone now for people to say	26:01
	oh let's call that woman, oh and by the way,	26:07
	we have to find a job for her husband.	26:09
	(laughing)	26:11
	Yeah, and so here we are.	26:14
	And I looked out on that crowd	26:18
	and I was like oh my God, this is amazing.	26:19
-	Yes.	26:24
-	You know, and it was such a vindication, really,	26:25
	and that there were people of color in this thing.	26:28
	And I remember meeting some Asian women,	26:31
	and I was like oh my dear, how lovely is that?	26:35
-	Yes!	26:38
-	And so Native women and kids have been,	26:40
	let's see Marlene Helgemo was my go-to parent,	26:47
	to go with me, to have meetings with the kids	26:55
	and so forth and so on.	26:59
	So, she was my right hand and then when she decided	27:01
	to go into ministry I was just thrilled.	27:06
-	Oh!	27:09
-	Just thrilled.
-	Wonderful.	27:11
-	And then she's still working now with that same group	27:12
	of kids that I started all these eons ago.	27:15
-	I love it!	27:19
	That is wonderful.	27:20
	So did you get involved in the Cordaid Council	27:21
	shortly after the '93 conference?	27:24
-	I think that was it.	27:26
	I think that was it.	27:27
-	Yeah.	27:28
-	You know, that part of the memory is so ...	27:29
	And I remember Manly.	27:32
-	Yes!	27:34
-	Who forgets Manly?	27:35
-	I know, wonderful guy.	27:36
-	Who was our chair?	27:38
-	For the '93, it was Mary Kay Sauter	27:41
	and Kathi Austin Mahle.	27:44
-	Yes, yes.
	(talking over each other)	27:46
-	So do you recall the backlash?	27:49
	Did it affect you at all?	27:51
-	Oh yeah, I remember the backlash.	27:52
-	Yeah, yeah.	27:53
-	But you know, it was like at that point,	27:54
	like I say, our denomination was grounded	27:58
	and so, you know all this goddess talk and all that crap.	28:02
	It was just ...	28:07
	You know, I'd been up against some of the best	28:10
	of them really.	28:11
	(laughing)	28:12
	Things like meeting in the same hotel in St. Cloud,	28:16
	as we were getting ready to go down,	28:21
	that was one of the, um, in 1976,	28:23
	when we had the women's conference in Houston.	28:28
-	Mmm.	28:30
-	And that was, that ...	28:32
	Oh, man, Phyllis Schlafly brought her conference	28:34
	to the same hotel.	28:38
-	Really?	28:40
-	Yes, really.	28:41
	Her strongest group was farm women in Stearns county.	28:42
-	Oh, wow!	28:46
-	Oh, yeah.	28:47
	And her Eagle Forum?	28:48
-	Yes.
-	Oh man!	28:50
	And she had,	28:51
	there was a book out that an anti-feminist,	28:54
	a woman, had put out and it was ...	29:00
	Oh, it was awful but it was a best-seller	29:05
	and I remember that Phyllis had her women	29:07
	saving their egg money to fight this battle against us,	29:12
	and oh, man.	29:17
	And then once we got to Houston--	29:19
-	Just to clarify, us would be the Lutheran Church	29:23
	and ordained--	29:25
-	No, actually us would be the Women's Equity Action League.	29:25
-	Oh, okay, okay, got it, got it.	29:31
-	The Action League, NOW, you know all of the feminists,	29:33
	we were getting our delegates down that we'd chosen.	29:36
-	Yes.	29:40
-	And by the time we got down there, two things happened,	29:41
	and galvanized me, I guess,	29:45
	to do my work in a different way.	29:48
	And that was that I had come out of the south	29:51
	where mentoring kids and so forth and so on	29:55
	was just a part of our nature.	30:00
	I mean, you didn't even talk about it.	30:01
	You had a youth for a ...	30:05
	You know, kids knew that they had to keep secrets,	30:06
	I mean, you know it was all part of the fabric of our lives	30:09
	but when I got here, kids were so segregated from adults,	30:12
	and the ministries.	30:17
	Never shall the twain never meet.	30:19
	Or rarely, but so when I went down to Houston	30:22
	and we had to walk the gamut	30:27
	of all these horrible, white males calling us faggots	30:29
	and this, lesbos, and yadda yadda yah,	30:34
	and spitting at you and so forth.	30:38
	That took me back to my civil rights roots.	30:41
-	Yes!	30:45
-	Okay, so I'd done this walk before.	30:47
-	Yes.	30:48
-	Okay, for many other people it was terrifying.	30:49
-	Right!	30:52
-	And which is one reason why having black women	30:53
	particularly in the movement was so helpful,	30:57
	because we'd been there.	31:01
-	Yes, yes.	31:03
-	And so--
-	And this was Houston, the Lutheran Church--	31:06
-	No, this was the national conference	31:08
	to send women to our national conference	31:14
	of women's groups and everything,	31:19
	which then chose delegates to go	31:21
	to the first women's conference of the Decade.	31:24
-	Oh, okay.	31:30
-	Of the U.N. Decade.	31:31
-	U.N. Decade, ok.	31:31
-	And of course, Arvonne had been very, very instrumental	31:32
	in getting that Decade.	31:38
-	Who had, I'm sorry?	31:41
-	Arvonne Fraser.	31:42
-	Arvonne Fraser, okay, got it.	31:43
-	Yeah, so anyway, that was the step thing	31:44
	so all the states were choosing their people to go	31:47
	on to this.	31:51
-	Yeah.	31:52
-	So that was before we had a conference, okay?	31:53
	The religious conference,	31:59
	so unlike the civil rights movement	32:01
	where the church people were leading.	32:03
-	Yes.	32:05
-	In this case, the church people were following.	32:08
-	Right.	32:10
-	And really dragging their heels I might say.	32:11
	So anyway, I just wanted to quickly say that.	32:15
	So fast forward to the conference,	32:18
	there were people that I had known	32:21
	in this other place you see?	32:25
-	Yes!	32:28
-	Who were now in this religious space with me.	32:29
-	Yes.	32:32
-	And really there were a lot of women who were very,	32:33
	who had been very beat up by the church	32:39
	and the patriarchal nature of the churches.	32:41
	And so many of them had dropped off.	32:45
	I mean, they were no longer in churches.	32:47
	So this wasn't a place that you went to.	32:51
-	Yes!	32:55
-	In terms of the women's movement.	32:56
	This was a place that was pretty fraught with,	32:58
	with peril.	33:03
-	Yes.
-	So the women's movement got kind of a bad rap	33:05
	about being a,	33:10
	what am I trying to say?	33:13
	About being anti-church or so forth and so on.	33:15
-	Which must have made Re-imagining very striking.	33:20
-	Oh man, very striking.	33:23
	And that group of people were still fighting,	33:27
	you know, they hadn't gone any place.	33:29
-	Yes, yes, yeah.	33:32
-	They were still fighting.	33:33
-	So, given your background,	33:34
	were you surprised at the reaction to Re-imagining?	33:37
	To the 1993 conference?	33:40
-	I was, in a sense, because I thought we'd passed all that.	33:42
-	Yeah.	33:46
-	And I was surprised by that.	33:49
-	Mm-hmm.
	And how do you account for it,	33:55
	as you think about it now, Vivian?	33:56
-	Oh, that's an interesting question.	33:58
	I'm gonna give you a Bob Turre, Robert Turre answer.	34:05
-	Okay.	34:08
	(laughing)	34:09
-	Which is that, as long as groups that are dispossessed	34:10
	or oppressed don't coalesce,	34:15
	in any way that the other, the majority sees as threatening	34:19
	okay, they'll make deals with you.	34:25
-	Right, yes.	34:26
-	They'll do transactions.	34:28
	But the minute you start to coalesce in numbers	34:29
	that are uncomfortable?	34:32
-	Yes!	34:34
-	Then you threaten their	34:35
	(chuckling)	34:40
	How did he say that?	34:44
	Well, let me just skip up.	34:46
	We would say you threaten their privilege?	34:48
-	Yeah.	34:49
-	Okay, and this is a power move,	34:50
	so whether or not you can deliver on it is irrelevant.	34:53
-	Yeah.	34:57
-	But it's just seen as a threat	34:57
	and then people start organizing,	34:59
	people start really trying to take it apart and so forth.	35:01
	And you know, this was the point at which	35:07
	just about, and I hate to say it,	35:13
	just about every major movement	35:15
	of our time has been attacked.	35:19
-	Mm-hmm.
-	You know, I read this morning this news about CIA	35:24
	turning Nelson Mandela in.	35:31
	I was so,	35:34
	I thought I had seen and heard it all.	35:36
-	Right, yes.	35:39
-	With all that's been through the movement with Dr. King	35:40
	and Hoover doing all his mad shenanigans.	35:42
	But I was just, I have to say I was floored this morning.	35:47
-	Yes!	35:49
-	So that kind of, whenever you are threatening,	35:51
	as Turre would say, or you're perceived	35:56
	to be threatening institutions that the majority holds dear,	36:00
	or needs, then you're expendable.	36:05
-	Yeah, yeah.	36:07
-	And you have to be stopped.	36:08
-	Right.	36:10
	And from what you said earlier,	36:10
	it sounded like that the backlash wasn't as powerful	36:11
	in the Lutheran Church.	36:15
-	It may have been but I, at that point, was not working	36:16
	in the Lutheran Church, I was back at the U.	36:21
-	Sure.	36:23
-	So, but as far as you know, the mentoring stuff, nah.	36:24
-	Yes, yeah, yeah.	36:28
	So do you remember anything	36:31
	about forming the Re-imagining community?	36:33
	Were you involved in that?	36:35
-	Well, yes, I think that, as I recall,	36:36
	people really began to see that this was,	36:42
	in and of itself, a movement.	36:49
-	Yes!	36:51
-	That it wasn't just kind of okay,	36:53
	let's have all the religious come together	36:55
	and see where we are,	36:58
	and I can tell that we're further ahead than you.	36:59
	(laughing)	37:03
	But it really, I think, was	37:07
	for most people, the first time	37:13
	that they really saw that working,	37:16
	in this issue.	37:22
-	This issue being women's?	37:26
-	Women and their roles in the Church.	37:27
-	Yes.	37:33
-	And so I think for,	37:35
	that as we began to see that people needed to be supported.	37:39
-	Yes!	37:42
-	People were losing jobs!	37:43
	I was like what?	37:44
-	Yeah.	37:45
-	Really?	37:46
-	I know.
-	Yeah, and the three of us at our college, back in '70,	37:48
	where was that?	37:53
	It was in the late '70s.	37:55
	We had won our case.	37:57
-	The Augsberg case.	37:58
-	The Augsberg case.	37:59
-	Did you?	38:00
	Wow, that's great.	38:01
-	We were on our way to winning it,	38:02
	and then the (laughing) civil rights department guy	38:03
	flew in here from Chicago and spent a week here on campus.	38:08
	And they thought that they were free	38:14
	from any kind of restraint	38:17
	because we were a religious institution.	38:18
	Well when he pointed, as he looked at all contracts	38:21
	and this and that and all the things, we had no idea.	38:23
	Then he pointed out to us, says if you had taken one dime	38:26
	from the federal government you were covered.	38:29
-	Oh really?	38:32
-	Yeah.
	And we had just built a second dorm using federal money	38:34
	and not to mention all this other stuff,	38:37
	so we were covered.	38:40
	And as it turned out,	38:42
	they started a committee on Sibley,	38:47
	Dr. Sibley was who I was trying to remember.	38:53
-	Oh, okay.	38:55
-	Mulford Q. Sibley who was,	38:56
	Mulford Sibley was probably	39:00
	one of the most famous professors at the U.	39:03
	He did research work,	39:06
	God in the '40s, on race.	39:10
	What was the famous race study?	39:14
	I can't remember it.	39:17
	Gosh, one of the former presidents of Harvard had been	39:21
	part of that, and one of my professors had too.	39:24
	Golly, I can't think of the study, but it's very famous.	39:31
	Anyway, so Mulford was really somebody	39:36
	and I feel like, even yet,	39:41
	privileged that I got to know him,	39:47
	and that we were together standing on the steps together	39:50
-	That is wonderful.	39:55
-	For gay rights.
-	Yes, yes!	39:56
-	Oh, you know and this was the thing.	39:57
	So I would volunteer for things nobody else wanted to do.	39:59
	So the first state study on discrimination	40:04
	against gay people had come	40:09
	to the Department of Human Rights.	40:11
	The then Commissioner really didn't want anything	40:14
	to do with it, so he passed it over	40:18
	to the women's advisory.	40:21
-	Oh, really?	40:24
-	Really.
	And so the question was thrown out to us,	40:26
	well, I'm sure nobody in here wants to do that,	40:30
	but anybody interested?	40:32
	And of course,	40:34
	(talking and laughing drowns out speech)	40:35
	So we hired a wonderful researcher	40:38
	who also was gay and did a wonderful report.	40:42
-	That is great.	40:47
	Oh, that is great.	40:49
-	Now, as it turns out, it was all about men.	40:50
-	Oh.	40:54
-	Okay?
-	Mm-hmm.	40:55
-	Yeah.
	It was like really?	40:57
	Are you going to go to barber shops?	41:00
	Well there wasn't any place for gay women.	41:02
	There were no clubs, there were no anything like that	41:04
	at that point.	41:06
	So that movement came along	41:08
	behind this movement but anyway.	41:12
-	Boy, you were involved in so many important movements.	41:16
	And talk about intersectionality.	41:19
	You really lived it.	41:20
-	I lived it, so back to this thing though.	41:22
	Knowing that people needed support	41:25
	and that the larger religious faith community,	41:29
	the national faith community had to see	41:34
	that this wasn't a what?	41:36
	A shot in the, what do they call it?	41:40
-	A flash in the pan.	41:42
-	Flash in the pan.	41:43
-	Yes!	41:44
-	Yes, and that, I learned long ago,	41:45
	has nothing to do with skillets.	41:47
-	Oh!	41:49
-	Flash in the pan, you know a putter pan?	41:50
-	Oh is that it?	41:53
	Oh, that's great, that is great.	41:54
	How did feminist theology affect the structure	41:57
	and functioning of the Re-imagining community,	41:59
	would you say?	42:01
-	I'd say that it was the lifeblood of it truly.	42:03
-	And how'd it manifest itself?	42:07
-	Well in that I think people were stronger,	42:09
	I think people had a place where they could speak	42:14
	without fear and really help one another.	42:18
	I really think it created that space	42:26
	for us to be able to move up.	42:29
-	And what kind of challenges would you say	42:32
	the community faced during its 10 years?	42:33
-	Oh, there were many.	42:36
-	Yeah.
-	There were many.	42:38
	One was losing your job, obviously.	42:39
-	Great, yes.	42:43
-	And another was not being taken seriously	42:45
	or how to say it?	42:50
	Being sidelined as one of those bra-burning feminists.	42:55
	And so people either expected you to burn your bra,	43:01
	(laughing)	43:06
	Or they,	43:10
	it was almost like,	43:14
	what was it almost like it was?	43:18
	People who were being,	43:22
	I called it tortured, on their jobs and such.	43:26
	They didn't have any support.	43:30
	They didn't have any place to go with it.	43:31
-	Right.	43:33
-	And especially religious folks.	43:34
-	Yeah, yeah.	43:36
	So, the churches weren't taking them seriously?	43:38
	Is that who you mean?	43:41
-	Some weren't.	43:42
-	Yeah, yeah.	43:42
-	Some were just kinda like let's just pretend	43:43
	they are not here.	43:48
	If we just ignore them long enough, they will go away.	43:51
	(laughing)	43:53
	Can I get some more water from you?	43:56
-	Oh, okay, sure, sure.	43:57

	(laughter)	0:00
-	So, Vivian what aspects of Re-imagining	0:03
	were most significant to you and why?	0:05
-	Well, um, I think the support,	0:08
	the ability to work on things together.	0:16
	That was, to me, see, I'm not long on	0:21
	a lot of yick yack for talk.	0:26
	(Laughter)	0:28
-	I want to get things done, so.	0:29
-	Right.	0:30
-	I'm a pragmatist, so if the talk leads to something,	0:31
	I'm okay with it.	0:33
-	Right.	0:34
-	But, you know, it was like, for a lot of people,	0:35
	they just weren't ready for people	0:42
	to be as cruel to them as they were.	0:44
-	Yes.	0:46
-	You know?	0:47
-	Yeah.	0:48
-	And in our case at the college,	0:49
	people stopped talking to us.	0:51
-	Ohh.	0:52
-	And I was in a department where that did not happen,	0:53
	but, one of the other women was in a department	0:56
	where she was chairing the department,	1:00
-	Oh my goodness.	1:02
-	And everyone stopped talking to her.	1:03
-	Oh, that would be awful.	1:04
-	Yeah, so she had to step down and you know,	1:05
	give the chair over to somebody else.	1:08
-	Ugh, awful.	1:10
	Did your involvement in Re-imagining	1:13
	change your perspective at all on feminist theology,	1:15
	and/ or on the church?	1:17
-	Oh yeah, absolutely.	1:19
	Because at this point, certain things had settled in	1:21
	into my bones at that point.	1:27
	If you will.	1:29
	And my mother had started calling herself a feminist.	1:31
-	Had she? Aw I love it. That is great. Aw.	1:35
-	Yeah, and so she was involved in some church work.	1:40
	But, you know, in the Black Lutheran church,	1:46
	women ran the church.	1:48
-	Is that right?	1:50
-	Yeah. That's who was in the pew.	1:51
	Just like it is with the white women	1:53
	but pastor didn't do anything	1:56
	without coming past the ladies	1:59
	(laughter)	2:01
	in the church.	2:02
	I mean, because they raised the money for this,	2:03
	they raised the money for that.	2:04
	You know, blah blah blah,	2:06
	they taught, they did all the work.	2:07
-	Yes.	2:09
-	And, not all the work, of course men were	2:10
	were part of this, but,	2:14
	the majority of the people were women.	2:15
	And so the black church, women speak out.	2:16
-	Uh-huh	2:22
-	So, there was no such thing as somebody saying,	2:23
	"Sister, whatever, you can't talk here."	2:29
	and you know when white people would come	2:34
	from other churches	2:37
	and we'd have a congregational meeting afterwards,	2:38
	and I guess my Dad was ahead of his time too, in this regard	2:41
	but, you know, women taught, women voted.	2:46
	I was like, really?	2:51
-	Yes.	2:52
-	I didn't know anything else.	2:53
-	Right?	2:54
-	So yeah, so actually,	2:55
	seeing that people had to make choices about things,	2:58
	that helped me understand more about why	3:02
	white women weren't more forthcoming.	3:05
-	Say some more about that.	3:10
-	Well, in other words,	3:11
	when I saw how white women could be punished.	3:13
-	Ah.	3:16
-	By white people, other white women and white men,	3:17
-	Yes.	3:20
-	Because it wasn't part of the culture.	3:21
-	Right.	3:23
-	Then I began to understand that, why, they	3:24
	weren't always front and center,	3:31
-	Got it.	3:35
-	You know, supporting you, or me, or whatever,	3:35
	because they couldn't support themselves.	3:38
-	Ha, wow, that's	3:40
-	So, you know, a part of me really I think	3:43
	became much more forgiving, if you will,	3:49
	as a result of that experience.	3:55
	Because, once you got to know someone	3:57
	a person with a name and a face, you know,	4:02
	not just Reverend Molly's picture here and there or whatever	4:05
	it made a difference.	4:10
-	Yes.	4:11
-	It made a difference.	4:12
	So that whole business of showing up?	4:13
	This was all a part of, for me, showing up.	4:16
-	Absolutely.	4:20
	Oh, glad you did.	4:22
	So, you know, getting at the end here,	4:24
	In the end, what do you think is the greatest legacy	4:27
	of the Re-imagining community?	4:28
-	I think the greatest legacy of this, and I teach now,	4:32
	I've been teaching for a number of years now,	4:37
	at Luther Seminary,	4:39
-	Yes.	4:40
-	And the greatest legacy of this, for me,	4:42
	is young, white males who come into class already feminized.	4:46
-	Umm	4:50
-	I mean really,	4:51
	and who take on other males who aren't there,	4:52
	and you don't have to do that work.	4:55
-	Yeah.	4:57
-	Okay.	4:58
-	Right.	4:59
-	That's the greatest legacy to me.	4:59
-	Yes.	5:00
-	Is that the other side of the equation, for the most part,	5:01
	Get it, understand it, and are partnering with,	5:09
	are partnering, and now we have more women than men.	5:14
-	Uh-huh	5:20
-	Right, and now we have more clergy couples	5:20
	than the church ever had.	5:25
	And women are willing to serve	5:27
	these little 5-point parishes and 3-point parishes	5:29
	that we couldn't bring enough men in to do.	5:36
-	Right.	5:39
-	Also one of the things that Re-imagining has done,	5:41
	is it has given us more seasoned clergy	5:44
	who are choosing this as a second or third career.	5:50
-	Uh-huh	5:57
-	And that is a blessing.	5:58
-	Uh-huh	5:59
-	That is a real blessing.	6:00
-	You know, some of the goals of Re-imagining	6:01
	were to bring inclusive or expansive language	6:03
	into the church, and feminist theology,	6:05
	What is your perception of how that is today?	6:08
-	Oh I think we're getting there.	6:10
-	Do you? Yes.	6:12
-	I really do.	6:13
	The reason I say this is because, if you can believe it,	6:14
	in the first instance, you know coming up Lutheran,	6:17
	we didn't even cross synodical lines.	6:21
-	Right.	6:25
-	We did not cross synodical lines.	6:25
	And it was said and said many times,	6:29
	Oh, they are too liberal, they are going to hell.	6:31
-	Right.	6:33
-	They're going to burn in hellfire. Okay?	6:34
-	Uh-huh	6:35
-	Turn and burn, honey. So.	6:37
	(laughter)	6:38
-	And so, if we thought that way about other Lutherans,	6:42
	I mean, how far out were the Jews and Muslims,	6:46
	and this and that.	6:51
	Okay, In the civil rights movement, which I contend,	6:52
	was the most ecumenical movement in this country's history.	6:55
-	Yes.	7:01
-	My Dad had to be alongside other people.	7:02
	You know, we were taught not to talk to Catholic kids	7:06
	before all of that happened.	7:11
-	Right.	7:12
-	Okay, so here he is marching	7:13
	with the Catholics, and the this and the that,	7:15
	he's driving the church people crazy.	7:17
	I mean, because of the religious nature of the movement.	7:19
-	Right.	7:25
-	That is was opening doors to other people.	7:26
	Your gonna, well next thing you know	7:30
	you're gonna be preaching Judaism.	7:31
	Guess what, we already do.	7:33
	(laughter)	7:34
	You know, and Dad always had such a great sense of humor,	7:38
	the point that I'm making here is that	7:43
	this opened the doors for us as women	7:47
	to be way more ecumenical than our churches were.	7:52
-	Mmm	7:55
-	Because this battle was being fought all around the world,	7:57
	everywhere you went, and of course, the interesting part	8:02
	about the Mexico meeting	8:06
	was we didn't have a tract that was for religious,	8:11
	we just had the NGO's.	8:17
-	Ah	8:18
-	So the religious had to get themselves together	8:19
	on their own.	8:22
-	Ah	8:23
-	And I had enough money from my denomination,	8:24
	to actually bring somebody with me to the conference,	8:28
	you know, and stuff like that.	8:30
	So when we went to Denmark, the church was,	8:34
	the Danish church allowed me to open the Danish church	8:38
	to have a meeting place.	8:44
-	Hmmm	8:46
-	The NGO's didn't have a meeting place.	8:47
	We were always scrambling for a meeting place.	8:48
-	Oh wow.	8:50
-	So we learned interesting things, like,	8:51
	People had come without knowing how expensive	8:56
	it was going to be, and of course, you know, I have to say,	8:58
	there were all kinds of classes	9:02
	who were there at these meetings and so, by the time	9:04
	we got to the second meeting, which was five years in,	9:08
	we'd had meetings at The White House, we'd had all	9:11
	kinds of meetings,	9:14
-	Wow.	9:16
-	Yeah, so we were much better prepared at that point.	9:17
	And so, we brought back, and so my Lutheran sisters,	9:20
	everybody but the Missouri synod,	9:27
	they were all at the Danish convention,	9:29
	and so you know, coming back, and the Methodists,	9:33
	you know, everybody was there.	9:37
-	Yeah	9:38
-	And the Baptists, and this and that.	9:39
	So, we got to see worldwide, and experience worldwide,	9:41
	the struggles of the women in Asia,	9:47
	the struggles of the women here,	9:48
-	Ah	9:50
-	And everyday after our meetings, then you know,	9:51
	we could come to the church,	9:55
	you know we could have meals together,	9:57
-	Ohh	9:58
-	You know, all sorts of really wonderful things.	9:59
	So, we were able to process this as world women,	10:00
	if you will , world religious women.	10:07
	And know that it was better in some places	10:09
	worse in others, so, being hosted by the Danish church	10:12
	made quite a	10:17
-	That's amazing.	10:18
-	Quite a, yeah, anyway, long and short,	10:19
	so for me, this was really kinda my rootedness, if you will,	10:24
	going out to the larger world and back again.	10:33
	And each time you make one of those journeys,	10:38
	your faith is challenged and supported	10:43
	in ways that you never thought it would be.	10:45
	Okay, so I used to say, when I was a church executive,	10:48
	that God was black woman with a big purse,	10:53
	and she did not like ugly.	10:55
	(laughter)	10:56
	She'd smack you with that purse.	10:58
-	I love it.	11:00
-	It was really funny, somebody sent me a cartoon.	11:04
	And it was this pastor, he just "women this and that"	11:09
	and there was this purse coming out of a cloud,	11:14
	(laughter)	11:16
	coming down,	11:17
	(laughter)	11:18
	I kept it,	11:19
-	Perfect.	11:20
-	Yeah, I kept it forever.	11:20
-	I love that image.	11:22
-	I knew that we were someplace different,	11:23
	when our seminary, the whole seminary read The Shack.	11:26
-	Ohh	11:33
-	And had two of us talking about it,	11:34
	and one being non-Lutheran and me.	11:36
	I mean that is, that covers so many bases	11:39
	that I have to unpack it a little bit.	11:44
	One is, nobody ever thought of a woman, you know,	11:46
	until we started all this woman, woman talk , if you will.	11:50
	And thinking about God, the God-head as not being male,	11:55
	except in the person of Jesus.	12:00
	And those are hard hard images to get out of peoples' minds.	12:03
	And then finally, we were reading a piece of literature,	12:08
	which was a bestseller, but I thought it was badly written,	12:13
	but that's neither here nor there,	12:15
	but where God is a black woman.	12:18
-	Um-hm	12:19
-	Okay?	12:20
	So that opened windows and doors	12:21
	that we couldn't get through, with even me as a student,	12:26
	an art student, painting Jesus as a Jewish man	12:30
	with black hair and olive complexion, and modern dress,	12:33
	and a jean jacket to be exact.	12:39
	(laughter)	12:41
	But, this opened up the ability to think about God	12:42
	in a different way, where these two things intersect.	12:49
-	Exactly.	12:54
-	Yeah, so for that, I thought that we made great strides.	12:54
	And I teach with a woman who is head of a department,	13:02
	I repeat, head of a department, at Luther Seminary,	13:08
	and she, she, is a Roman Catholic Theologian.	13:13
-	Ohh	13:16
	Oh yes.	13:18
-	Yes.	13:19
-	Right.	13:21
-	For our institutions to open themselves wide enough,	13:22
	or be forced to open themselves wide enough to accept	13:26
	a woman Theologian, who is Catholic?	13:29
-	Um-hm	13:31
-	Oh yeah, we've come a long way baby.	13:32
-	Oh yes.	13:36
	Vivian, this has been great.	13:37
	Is there anything that you want to add	13:39
	that we haven't talked about?	13:40
-	Oh well, I'll think about it later.	13:41
	(laughter)	13:42
	No, this has been great fun.	13:44
	You know, I'm so in the present and future,	13:46
	that my husband was the rememberer.	13:53
	(laughter)	13:55
-	Oh yeah?	13:56
	Well you remembered a lot, I think.	13:57
-	You know, we all have our stories,	14:00
	and that's all we have, really.	14:03
-	Yes.	14:05
-	And you know, and the story,	14:05
	in which we all become part of the narrative,	14:09
	is really our faith story.	14:13
-	Uh-huh	14:15
	And you have a rich story, you really do.	14:17
-	I do.	14:20
	You know, I can't imagine me being born to,	14:23
	other than the people I was born to.	14:26
-	Yes.	14:28
-	Because they were so, they allowed us think	14:29
	whatever we wanted to, you know, and, so	14:33
	I had a brother who was a, younger brother,	14:37
	who was a Black Panther.	14:39
-	Really? Wow.	14:42
-	At the same time, Dad was doing his civil rights stuff.	14:43
-	Ahh	14:46
-	And in fact, my Dad became quite enamored	14:46
	of the Black Panthers' breakfast program.	14:51
	And so the two of them	14:55
	would go around together and make talks.	14:55
-	Oh, well I can why you are the way you are, Vivian.	14:58
	(laugher)	15:03
	You have great roots.	15:04
-	Yeah, this apple didn't fall from the tree.	15:07
-	No it did not.	15:08
-	As my Mother says, you're much nicer than I am.	15:10
	(laughter)	15:13
-	Well, thank you, that's great.	15:17

Item Info

Title:

Nelsen, Vivian

Date:

May 16, 2016

Creator:

Jordon, Sherry E. (Sherry Elaine)

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Re-Imagining Collection

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Re-Imagining Collection, 1991-2025

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reimagining
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ark:/87924/r4t14ws1x
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Nelsen, Vivian

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