Nelson, Randy / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

Woman

Thank you so much for meeting me, Randy.

0:04

If you could say your name.

0:07

Randy

Randy Nelson.

0:08

-

And are you lay or clergy?

0:10

-

I am clergy.

I am an ordained member of the

0:13

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

0:15

Woman

Thank you very much.

0:17

When and where were you born, Randy?

0:19

Randy

I was born in South Dakota,

0:22

a small community, Watertown, South Dakota,

0:24

in October of 1941.

0:27

Woman

Okay, great. Where did you go to school?

0:31

Graduate, Divinity school?

0:33

Randy

Went to grade school, high school in

0:36

my small community of Strandburg, South Dakota.

0:38

Went to college in Gustavus Adolphus in St Peter, Minnesota.

0:41

Went to seminary first in Rock Island, Illinois,

0:46

and then graduated from the

0:49

Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago.

0:51

I had moved there,

0:53

and then did a master's and a doctorate

0:55

at the University of Chicago Divinity School.

0:58

Woman

Okay.

1:00

Randy

Did some graduate work,

1:02

or some sabbatical work

1:03

in Cambridge, England, at Cambridge University,

1:05

and

1:09

that's the academic part.

1:12

Woman

Yes. That sounds wonderful, actually.

1:14

What work or ministry were you

1:18

doing at the time of Re-imagining?

1:20

Randy

I was on the faculty at Luther seminary

1:23

in Saint Paul, Minnesota.

1:27

I was the director of contextual education,

1:29

which was the seminary's program for

1:33

placing students who are preparing for ministry

1:37

in congregations all around the country

1:40

and in some overseas sites,

1:42

so, I supervised their placements.

1:44

It was a one year...

1:47

They were in a, basically, in apprenticeship

1:49

I don't know, for a year, and I and my colleagues,

1:53

at one point there were three of us,

1:56

at another point there were four of us,

1:58

another point there were two of us.

2:00

We ended up supervising them

2:01

in that year of internship.

2:04

Woman

Yeah, and how long did you do that, Randy?

2:07

-

Thirty-two years.

2:09

-

Wow.

Randy

And for most of those 32 years,

2:13

I would say for, maybe,

2:16

28 or 29, it was our practice to visit our interns

2:20

in their places, each year.

2:24

And so I would make,

2:28

one year I made 60 site visits throughout the country

2:30

and then other years, it was mostly between 30 and 40.

2:33

Woman

Wow, that's a lot.

2:36

Randy

I was, basically, every other week

2:39

I would be gone from end of November through

2:42

end of March.

2:47

Woman

And this was all over the country?

2:48

Randy

Yes, and then about, all over the country

2:50

and in about seven or eight foreign countries

2:53

over the time, as well.

2:55

-

Really? So you visited there, too,

2:58

the foreign countries, wow.

3:00

Randy

We did, up until the last two or three years,

3:01

when we did not do visits anymore.

3:03

Woman

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3:05

And you're retired?

3:07

Randy

I am retired.

3:09

I retired in

3:10

June of

3:12

of 2007.

3:14

Woman

Yes.

3:17

Randy

My wife, who was a school social worker,

3:18

retired the same year.

3:20

So, we've been in retirement now for,

3:21

this is our ninth year.

3:25

Woman

Wonderful, great.

3:26

How and when did you first become aware

3:29

of feminist theology?

3:31

Randy

Well, I suspect,

3:34

well, yeah, when I was at the University of Chicago,

3:37

at the divinity school, for a couple of years,

3:43

I also served part-time on the faculty

3:46

of the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago,

3:50

and a couple of those years, I was in internship,

3:53

a couple years I was teaching in church and society,

3:57

and a couple years I was active dean of students.

4:01

Woman

Oh, wow.

4:04

Randy

And so, in those years, we had

4:04

not very many, but we did have some women students

4:08

that were coming.

4:11

So that was one of the impetus for my interest.

4:13

Another was a colleague of mine

4:17

at the University of Chicago.

4:18

Her name was Mary Pellauer.

4:21

She was a part of the feminist movement,

4:23

and so she and I were

4:28

classmates, although class is a little different

4:33

when you talk about graduate school.

4:36

So, that would've been the early,

4:39

the early interests, and then basically coming here

4:42

and being at Luther Seminary.

4:46

I ended up having a strong interest in

4:50

feminist theology, and

4:54

I seem to be able to relate,

4:58

to women students fairly well.

5:01

This is not quite what you asked, but it's related,

5:07

I also became very interested, at that point,

5:09

in LGBT community.

5:12

Woman

Yes.

5:15

Randy

Especially some of the women students

5:16

who were lesbian, but could not be out.

5:19

Woman

Right.

5:23

Randy

Would come and, we'd talk about,

5:24

well, what are your options and that kind of thing.

5:26

Woman

Wow, no, that's definitely related, yeah.

5:29

So it's interesting, so it was largely your,

5:31

the women and students who were,

5:33

that's what sparked your interest?

5:36

-

Right.

5:37

-

Yeah.

Being supportive of them.

5:39

Randy

Yes, yes, and then I would start to read

5:41

some of the feminist theology.

5:45

So, it was primarily, though, experiential,

5:48

is what triggered it.

5:51

And, I mean, that's not surprising since my whole ministry

5:53

was basically working with experiential learning.

5:56

Woman

Right.

6:00

The doctorate was pretty much academic theology,

6:02

but most of my ministry was more, okay,

6:05

how do you put this into practice?

6:09

-

Makes sense.

6:12

-

Yeah.

-

Absolutely.

6:13

-

It does, for me, at least.

Woman

If we could talk about the Re-Imagining Community.

6:17

Could you talk about your relationship that you're in,

6:20

in Re-imagining community, what kind of role you play?

6:22

Randy

Sure, sure.

6:24

My first involvement was

6:28

with the Decade for Women.

6:31

It started in, what,

6:34

'88, '88.

6:38

Woman

Yeah.

6:39

Randy

And I was asked by

6:40

a senate staff person if I would, in some sense,

6:45

represent the Lutheran church as a part of that

6:49

planning committee, or

6:54

I'm not sure what we called it at that point.

6:58

But anyway, Sally Hill was the one who kind of,

7:00

both invited me to be on this,

7:04

and also, then, encouraged me, so.

7:06

From '88 I was a part of that planning committee,

7:09

and it wasn't a planning committee yet.

7:13

By about '95, it became clear that not much was happening

7:15

in terms of what's going on here in the cities,

7:20

or really anyplace, and so that group said,

7:23

we need to put on a conference.

7:25

Woman

Okay. Can I interrupt for one minute?

7:27

Is this,

7:29

the church councils, the Minneapolis?

7:32

Randy

Yeah.

7:34

Woman

Yeah, yeah, okay, sorry to interrupt.

7:35

Okay, go ahead.

7:36

Randy

Yeah, and I don't know exactly

7:37

who started the thing because Sally was with

7:39

the Council of Churches.

7:42

So I became a part of that,

7:45

planning for the first major conference.

7:47

And we played a kind of minor role in that, but

7:51

was involved from the beginning with that.

7:58

So, participated in that conference,

8:02

and then, when that one was over,

8:05

we basically thought we're done.

8:07

This is it, we're done.

8:09

Well, the response was

8:11

so major and so much of it was negative,

8:17

that it became clear that we couldn't just fade away

8:20

because there were some people that needed

8:24

that help, support, and we thought we could offer that.

8:25

And so, instead of a one and done,

8:30

we continued to work, and then

8:34

we decided, well, we needed to do some more of these.

8:38

And I'm not exactly sure why

8:43

I was invited, but Pam Jorn and Jerry Smith and I

8:46

were asked if we would be chairs for the '98 conference.

8:51

I think all three of us said, well, we won't do it alone.

8:58

So if we can't do it together, we won't do it.

9:03

So we agreed to do it.

9:05

And so we did it in '98, and

9:07

then, when that one was over,

9:10

we said that they were still not done.

9:13

So the three of us became tri chairs again

9:17

for the 2000 conference.

9:19

And, I think after that,

9:22

the three of us said, okay,

9:26

if there's gonna be more of these, that's great,

9:28

but we're not gonna be the instigators or

9:31

organizers, or whatever it was called.

9:34

And so, we did those two conf--

9:38

chaired those two conferences,

9:43

and then stayed somewhat involved.

9:45

It became, really, a bonding conference for Jerry

9:52

and Pam and I, as we had continued to meet regularly,

9:55

almost on a once-a-month basis, since then,

10:00

so I suppose you could say, we started in '98,

10:03

then we were meeting more than once a month, of course,

10:06

for the planning.

10:08

So it's been almost, it's been close to 20 years

10:10

in which we've met regularly,

10:13

over breakfast, once a month.

10:16

That's been a,

10:20

that's been just a great, fun experience.

10:23

Woman

I love that.

10:27

Randy

One other thing just went through my mind

10:32

and I've now lost it.

10:34

Oh, my other involvement with the Re-Imagining Community

10:37

was we put out a newsletter, or a monthly.

10:40

And Nancy Burnekin was the one who was the first editor.

10:45

No--

10:50

-

Pam Jorn was.

10:51

-

Pam Jorn.

Woman

Yes, and then Nancy, you got it.

10:52

Randy

And then Nancy Burnekin,

10:53

and I served on the editorial council for both of these.

10:55

And I would occasionally write an article, or whatever.

11:00

But, again, that group would meet pretty much

11:05

on a monthly basis.

11:07

We did editorial work for them.

11:10

So, my main involvement was with the two conferences,

11:12

but then also the ongoing work with the

11:15

Re-Imagining newsletter, or the,

11:19

it was more than a newsletter, it was a magazine,

11:22

20 to 30 pages long.

11:24

That was fun.

11:28

In a former life, or in a different life,

11:30

I would've been an editor.

11:33

Woman

Really?

11:34

Randy

If I can't proof something and find a mistake,

11:36

then there's something wrong with me.

11:40

(laughing)

11:42

It was all in good fun, and it was great to work

11:45

with both Pam and Nancy in that context, also.

11:47

Woman

Oh, yes.

11:52

Randy, I want to hear more details,

11:53

'cause you were involved in so many important ways.

11:54

This is great.

11:58

First of all, when you think back to the planning,

11:59

when you were on the Ecumenical Decade,

12:01

the church council, all of that, could you tell me

12:03

a little bit more about how this all evolved

12:06

into the conference that it became?

12:08

Do you remember that?

12:11

Randy

Well,

12:12

my main memory is that we,

12:13

it was an Ecumenical Decade, but we had gone

12:17

three or four years,

12:19

and nothing much seemed to be happening.

12:20

Woman

Across the country?

12:24

Randy

Across the country.

12:25

And Sally, I think, said, something's gotta happen

12:27

or we're gonna have 10 years and, what?

12:30

And so, it was Sally that really was the prime mover

12:34

of this, but I think it was good,

12:38

good participation and awareness.

12:42

Again, we needed to do something,

12:44

because nobody else seemed to be doing anything.

12:46

So, we decided, well, let's do this conference.

12:49

And I'm not sure

12:54

how we settled on the notion of re-imagining God,

12:58

all the theology, quote, topics.

13:03

But it became clear early on that what we wanted to do

13:07

was a conference, and basically, the staff

13:10

staffed by female theologians.

13:16

And, again, it was Sally with her kind of content,

13:20

who said, well we don't need to just stay local.

13:23

We can go national, in fact we can go international.

13:26

And so, we had presenters at that conference

13:29

from all over the world,

13:35

Africa, Asia, Europe, and the United States.

13:38

I think we were all surprised at the response.

13:44

I'm not sure how many we thought we were gonna have,

13:48

but when we ended up with 2,200, that was kinda like

13:52

oh, there is something on here

13:56

that needs to be tapped.

13:59

And it turned out to be, I don't have the exact figures,

14:01

but about 2,100 women and about 100 men attended that.

14:04

And then, it had its own momentum.

14:10

And, of course,

14:13

by describing it as re-imagining,

14:16

and some of the presenters were really quite bold

14:19

in re-imagining very traditional and

14:24

in some sense,

14:29

untouchable topics that they dared to touch.

14:31

And then, of course, that

14:36

because there was some ecumenical money involved

14:38

from the various denominations, some of those denominations,

14:41

or parts of those denominations, became very critical, and

14:45

they said they took off some of the presenters

14:51

and some of the organizers.

14:54

One of the unfortunate things is that several persons

14:59

lost jobs,

15:01

were emotionally abused, not physically,

15:06

as far as I know, but emotionally and psychologically

15:09

targeted for heresy,

15:13

I mean, there was no

15:16

it wasn't quite that formal, but that was the implication.

15:19

That these feminist theologians were

15:22

out of bounds

15:27

and were

15:29

targeting the faith, destroying the faith for the churches

15:32

and that kind of thing.

15:35

And the leverage they had was that there was

15:37

some ecumenical money involved.

15:39

So, it was kinda like, well how come our money is being sent

15:42

being spent for such and such a thing?

15:45

So, then, as I say,

15:49

then it kind of had its own momentum after that.

15:51

And it was kinda like, well, we got a tiger going here.

15:55

We can't just drop it.

15:57

We could've, I think, if the response had been

16:00

either neutral or maybe more positive.

16:02

Then I think we could've said, well, we did our thing.

16:07

Woman

Right.

16:09

Randy

But it was clear, if we didn't continue,

16:11

some people were really gonna be hurt,

16:13

and they were anyway, but at least we could provide

16:16

a support for them, which I think we did pretty well.

16:18

Woman

Yeah, yeah.

16:24

Randy

I, at least, from my perspective,

16:27

went into this fairly innocently, so I mean,

16:32

I don't recall all the ins and outs of this

16:34

until after the fact, and then, oh,

16:38

were we aware of that?

16:41

Should we have been aware of that?

16:42

Should we have expected this?

16:43

Well no, I don't think any of us did.

16:45

Woman

And why didn't you expect it?

16:48

Randy

'Cause I think most of us thought,

16:50

this is what theology's about.

16:52

It's about group creativity and it's about

16:54

thinking outside the box, and that's not

16:57

that's not something that ought to be

17:02

stifled, I guess.

17:07

Now, obviously, when you think about it,

17:10

most of us were like-minded.

17:12

There was no what I would call

17:16

conservative fundamentalists in that group.

17:20

So there was nobody there who was saying,

17:23

well, you can't do that because the bible says this.

17:26

No, so I think we were,

17:29

we were naive, I would say we were naive in that sense.

17:31

That we thought the whole theological arena

17:36

was more open than it turned out to be.

17:39

And, I think we were not aware of how

17:43

okay, academic theory is one thing, but then you have

17:47

the whole lay community of the churches,

17:50

and they were less interested,

17:52

I shouldn't say less interested.

17:55

They were more afraid of what this meant

17:57

because, okay, if you can challenge that part of my faith,

18:00

then I'm not sure what I've got left, kinda thing.

18:06

We were, I think, both like-minded in what

18:13

we were hoping for, but also then, naive

18:16

in the dimensions of the church community, especially,

18:19

that were not prepared for that kind of

18:23

outside of the norm kind of thinking.

18:26

Woman

Yeah, and you mentioned earlier about

18:29

untouchable topics, or topics,

18:32

what would you say were the issues that really--

18:34

Randy

Well, one of them was atonement,

18:38

and there was a thought about, well, maybe Jesus,

18:41

that the normal understanding of Jesus

18:45

as dying for one's sins,

18:47

maybe we need to rethink what that means.

18:49

Another was the

18:52

image of

18:54

of milk and honey, which was seen by some to be

18:56

a reflection on

19:00

critiquing the eucharist, or

19:04

somehow that,

19:07

that was not a good thing to be doing.

19:09

Another was the Adam and Eve, the apples

19:11

with the Korean woman who kind of--

19:15

Woman

Chung Hyun Kyung?

19:19

Randy

Yeah, instead of saying

19:20

biting of the apple is a problem,

19:23

she said, well, we're gonna bite the apple,

19:26

(laughing)

19:28

and, of course, without any explanation of that.

19:29

That seemed to be saying,

19:33

(mumbles) at least, or

19:35

how sin comes about, so atonement was one.

19:38

The creation story was another.

19:46

I would say, the whole notion of sin, worship,

19:50

music, ritual, all of that was, at least on the edge.

19:54

Woman

Yes, yeah.

20:00

Randy

And while it was

20:01

we thought it was the thing to be doing,

20:04

was to kind of open this up.

20:06

Woman

Right.

20:08

Randy

Many people in the church,

20:09

at least the vocal ones in the church said,

20:11

you can't do that.

20:13

Woman

Right, right, yeah.

20:14

What was your experience like at the '93 conference?

20:17

Do you remember?

20:21

Randy

Yeah, it was,

20:22

well, I was doing a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff,

20:25

so I didn't get to hear everything.

20:30

And, that's okay.

20:32

My most vivid memory of that

20:34

was the closing conference

20:37

when, at that event,

20:40

we started singing We're Marching in the Light of God,

20:44

and the whole auditorium

20:48

was, basically, marching.

20:50

I was partly awestruck by the fact

20:56

that I had been invited to participate in the event

20:59

which was clearly feminist, and I'm not a woman.

21:03

So, there was a part of me that was saying,

21:06

I can't believe that I have been invited to be part of this.

21:08

And then to be able to do that kind of celebrative dance

21:13

at the end, was just great.

21:18

I was also aware of, during the conference,

21:21

the sense in which LGBTQ,

21:24

it wasn't Q then, I guess it was just LGBT

21:28

persons became very visible and were basically saying,

21:33

we're not gonna apologize for who we are anymore.

21:38

I guess three things, one being the closing celebration,

21:45

the kind of coming out of the LGBT candidates,

21:49

and the behind-the-scenes work of, okay,

21:52

which speaker has to be where at what time,

21:57

and that kind of thing.

21:59

And I did some transporting of people,

22:00

which I ended up doing all three of them

22:05

and then I did find out

22:08

(machine whirring over speech)

22:11

I would make a note in my journal of,

22:25

this time I brought Rebecca Walker to the airport

22:26

or something like that.

22:31

Another time, I think (mumbles).

22:32

So I was one of those who had a vehicle

22:35

and I had time and I could do that.

22:40

And I thought it was more important for me

22:43

to do something about organizing

22:45

than to be making sure I heard everything

22:47

and preventing some other one from hearing

22:50

when I could be doing behind-the-scenes stuff.

22:55

As I say, that I did with all three of the major ones.

22:59

There were several of the minor ones, in between,

23:04

that I did not have much involvement with.

23:07

-

Did you attend those?

23:10

-

Yes, yeah.

And that was fine, too.

23:14

I'm in a different role.

23:16

Woman

Yes.

23:17

You mentioned being,

23:18

I think the phrase that was often used was,

23:20

one of the few good men

23:21

that were involved.

23:23

I'm just curious, how would you describe

23:24

what it was like being a man and involved

23:26

in this organization that was primarily women?

23:28

Randy

Yeah, it was.

23:30

Well, I think having been a part of the Ecumenical Decade

23:32

committee, from the beginning.

23:36

It wasn't like I have to find my place.

23:38

And there was such a great group of women.

23:44

They welcomed me.

23:50

As I said, I did feel like, kinda

23:52

when I would stand up and think,

23:54

how did I get into this position?

23:56

And not in a sense of,

24:00

as a bad place to be, but how did I,

24:02

how did I get to be in this situation?

24:06

And it was because

24:09

so many of the planning women

24:12

simply welcomed me in.

24:16

And it wasn't a question, well you gotta,

24:18

you gotta prove to us why you belong here.

24:21

Not that at all.

24:22

It was, welcome, let's do the work.

24:24

But, I mean, there are still parts of me that think,

24:28

and still times when I wonder,

24:32

how was I both able to do this and why was I so lucky

24:34

that I was able to be a part of this?

24:39

Because I really do find it, I think of it

24:41

as one of the major, major events in my life,

24:44

in terms of

24:49

welcoming and being just accepted and

24:51

having a place and a spot in which to give

24:55

to bring my gifts.

25:00

-

Wow.

25:02

-

Yeah.

I should say a little bit about my background,

25:09

because I grew up in rural South Dakota,

25:11

very traditional, normal kind of place.

25:13

You know, rural values, I would say.

25:18

My family, my parents were

25:21

normal kind of Republican persons.

25:25

And so, there was a part of me that thinks,

25:30

how did a little country boy from South Dakota

25:32

get into this kind of a international

25:36

milieu?

25:41

I still think about that on occasion.

25:43

I don't know how it happened. I'm sure that it did.

25:47

But I don't know how, because nothing, in some sense,

25:49

prepared me for that.

25:52

Well, I shouldn't say that.

25:54

After college,

25:55

it's one of those things where

25:57

I had not planned out what I wanted to do.

26:00

It just kinda comes.

26:03

So, when I was a senior in college,

26:06

my philosophy prof said,

26:09

well, you're applying, aren't you,

26:15

for a Fulbright scholarship?

26:18

And I said, no.

26:19

Well, yeah you are.

26:21

So he, basically, had given encouragement.

26:23

I applied for a Fulbright scholarship.

26:25

Well, I think, okay I'll apply.

26:27

Surprisingly, I received a full (mumbles).

26:31

Woman

Wow.

26:34

State government fellowship, so I spent,

26:34

between college and seminary, a year in Germany

26:37

studying at University of (mumbles).

26:40

Well, that was

26:44

another pivotal point in my life,

26:47

because it started to break me out of a rural,

26:49

midwestern mindset, and say hey,

26:51

there's another world out there.

26:53

Woman

Yes, what were you studying there, Randy?

26:54

Randy

Well, it was social ethics.

26:56

I couldn't tell you why my interest in social ethics started

27:01

but I carried that forward, then, into seminary,

27:06

but especially into graduate school.

27:09

Woman

Yes.

27:11

I'm just curious, this is fascinating.

27:13

What led you to divinity school, to becoming a pastor?

27:14

Randy

Well, I was one of the, we had

27:20

our small church in South Dakota basically had

27:23

pastors who were nearing the end of their retirement,

27:27

or, I'm sorry, nearing the end of their ministry

27:30

and heading for retirement.

27:33

Woman

Yes.

27:34

Randy

When I was in high school,

27:34

we had a seminary graduate, right out of the seminary.

27:36

And his goal was to have a youth group here.

27:39

Well, there were enough of us kids around, so he did that.

27:42

And at that point, I became

27:45

one of the leaders in that, and I ended up

27:50

doing some supply preaching

27:52

as a junior in high school

27:56

in rural churches in South Dakota.

27:59

Woman

Wow.

28:01

Randy

And, it was the kind of thing where,

28:02

okay you showed some aptitude for it,

28:05

the ministry's a great profession, sure.

28:07

You ought to do it.

28:09

(laughing)

28:10

Then, as I say, I mean okay, I can do that.

28:12

So I did.

28:15

So, it wasn't a

28:16

it was not a conversion experience or anything,

28:19

I mean, it was not a blinding light.

28:22

You've got the gifts, so that's what I did.

28:25

Woman

Wonderful.

28:28

That's great, I love it.

28:29

This is great, we've talked about,

28:34

did the backlash affect you at all directly?

28:36

You were talking some about that.

28:39

Randy

Well,

28:42

I was identified in several conservative Lutheran papers

28:46

as one who had been a part of that.

28:53

The bishop that at that time was Herb Jolstrom,

28:57

and so, some of the inquiries came to him.

29:01

And he said, well, why don't you be in touch

29:04

with Randy Nelson, he's a part of it.

29:07

And I remember one of them,

29:10

it was in a paper called the Lutheran Commentator

29:11

and the editor said, well,

29:15

getting in touch with Nelson is like

29:18

getting in touch with the fox

29:22

after the chickens have been eaten.

29:23

It was the image, it wasn't the right language.

29:27

So there was that, but it was just very minor,

29:30

two or three instances like that where

29:33

I was referred to as

29:36

one of those that was a part of it, and

29:39

but there was no repercussions at the seminary.

29:43

There were some people at the seminary who

29:47

clearly didn't think I should've been doing that,

29:49

but they were not,

29:52

they were not mean or, they didn't come after me.

29:54

And I could weather that fairly easily

29:59

because by then I had been with the seminary

30:03

for almost, well, I started in seminary in '75,

30:05

so I was one of the main persons there.

30:08

And there was nothing really in the church, itself,

30:13

and Lutherans were not picked out

30:17

because we had not,

30:21

maybe a little bit of sabbatical money but there was

30:22

no major money source that could be said, well,

30:26

why are you spending Lutheran money?

30:30

Woman

Right, right.

30:32

Randy

So, it was,

30:33

it was minor.

30:36

Woman

Yes, yeah, that's good, good.

30:37

Talking about Re-Imagining, the community itself,

30:41

how would you define Re-Imagining?

30:44

Randy

Well, it was a community that gathered around

30:50

first, supporting a feminist theology,

30:53

and then it became a community that

30:56

continued, in order to support those who had been

31:00

a part of that effort and were now being challenged.

31:03

It became, basically, a support community,

31:08

and the support was very strong locally.

31:12

It continued, then, to be what I think of primarily

31:20

as a support community.

31:23

It was in a position to provide some educational

31:25

experiences and support for persons not from around here.

31:28

I can remember one Lutheran woman who was a pastor

31:33

in North Dakota, and for her,

31:36

the conferences were kind of life-saving

31:39

because in her community, she had really no support

31:43

(mumbles) to be a feminist.

31:47

She would use these events as kind of

31:54

restocking or rebuilding her resources

32:00

kind of thing.

32:04

Woman

Were there other ways that the community

32:06

provided support, other than the gatherings?

32:07

Randy

Well, we tried to help groups in other places

32:10

develop into small groups so they didn't have to rely

32:15

only on Minneapolis, St. Paul,

32:19

but they could gather their own.

32:22

And then, I would say the newsletter did that also,

32:25

because it became a really valuable resource

32:28

for, I think, people, who,

32:31

and especially for those who couldn't attend the conference.

32:35

They could still get a sense of what was going on,

32:38

and have a sense of participating in it.

32:41

Now, I'm sure, those,

32:46

I mean, there are ways that others in the community

32:48

probably provide additional kinds of support,

32:54

but that's what I'm aware of.

32:57

Woman

Do you have any idea how successful

33:00

the small groups were?

33:02

How many were formed, or any of that?

33:03

Randy

I don't think there were a lot of them,

33:06

and I don't know how long they continued.

33:10

So no, I really don't know how on that.

33:15

Woman

I wanted to ask a little bit more about

33:19

the quarterly publication that you were involved in.

33:21

I've been looking through them, and it is amazing

33:23

how much is in them, and how integrated it is

33:25

with art and poetry.

33:27

Could you just say a little bit more about

33:29

what you recall of what you were trying to achieve there,

33:32

what it was like being involved in that?

33:34

Randy

Well, one of the things we tried to do

33:37

is to keep the theological conversation going

33:39

by having, usually there was a lead in which

33:42

there was a conversation first with Pam

33:46

and then with Nancy, with two or three persons

33:49

around a common, around a theme.

33:52

So that was a priority way of saying,

33:55

let's keep the conversation going theologically.

33:57

It was also intended to give an outlet for some people

34:01

who wanted to express themselves

34:04

and were able to do that.

34:06

(machine whirring)

34:08

Woman

Go ahead.

34:18

Randy

And, it was also intended to be

34:21

an outlet for providing information about

34:25

what's going on in various parts of the movement.

34:29

So, if a group was meeting out, say, in California,

34:33

they could announce that in there.

34:36

And it was a chance to express true art,

34:41

so many mentions of this whole movement, as well.

34:45

Basically, I think it was intended to be a way of

34:50

keeping people in touch with each other

34:53

in between gatherings and it did that.

34:55

I don't have any idea how many actual subscriptions

34:59

or how many actual copies were made, so I,

35:02

but, it did,

35:09

I think it did what it was intended to do,

35:12

which was to kind of serve as a glue or a thread

35:15

for the whole community.

35:18

Woman

Yes.

35:19

Exactly, yeah.

35:21

How would you say feminist theology affected

35:23

the structure and functioning of the community?

35:25

Randy

Well, one of the ways it affected it

35:31

was in terms of language.

35:33

There was no hesitancy about talking about

35:36

God the mother, and so

35:40

feminist imaging was there for

35:43

the theological themes.

35:48

I think feminist theology was also

35:54

prominent in a kind of egalitarian or equality

35:59

kind of notion.

36:02

It says it's not hierarchical.

36:05

It's what the gifts you have that you can bring.

36:08

And I think that was modeled pretty well.

36:11

So many of the leaders were lay leaders,

36:14

I mean, they were not ordained.

36:18

There were several, I mean like Sally, ordained,

36:19

there were several.

36:21

But many of them were lay leaders.

36:22

And as far as I can tell,

36:26

they did not feel

36:29

they felt welcome for the gifts they had.

36:33

They weren't intimidated by not being clergy.

36:37

So,

36:44

this maybe is redundant, but

36:53

there's a sense in which the theology, itself,

36:56

that's very clearly feminist

36:59

that was not

37:02

it did not worry about well, does the tradition say this?

37:04

I mean, it wasn't disrespectful of the tradition,

37:08

but it didn't feel that it needed to be simply

37:12

(mumbles)

37:15

The tradition could be respected,

37:18

but we're in a different era.

37:20

There's new learning going on in biblical theological area.

37:24

We need to deal with that, incorporate that if we can.

37:28

So,

37:31

it was partly a sense of, let's be creative and that's,

37:33

if it develops into something good, that's fine.

37:38

If it doesn't, that's okay.

37:41

We can, okay that was a good attempt, but it didn't work.

37:43

So, we can go back and, if not start over,

37:47

but at least take a different tack.

37:51

It was also, I think

37:55

one of the other things it did was,

37:58

it was very committed to diversity.

37:59

And that was diversity in terms of the

38:03

nationalities,

38:07

races,

38:10

and it was not

38:12

individuals may have had all kinds of trouble

38:16

with maleness.

38:18

But as a community, it was not

38:21

disrespectful of males, either.

38:23

In other words, the egalitarianess also extended to,

38:25

well, if you want to be a part of this,

38:30

you can be a part of it, even if you're not a woman.

38:32

And that's partly why I think I continued to be a part of it

38:37

was because I didn't have a sense that

38:41

I didn't belong.

38:43

So I'm not,

38:47

there's probably some other ways also, but I think--

38:50

Woman

Those are very helpful.

38:52

Randy

I think that's what I,

38:54

you need immediately.

38:57

Woman

Yeah, those are very important.

39:00

When you think about the kind of challenges,

39:02

you know, during its 10 years of existence,

39:04

what challenges did the community face?

39:06

And how did they address them?

39:08

Randy

Well, I suppose,

39:13

the most vocal challenges

39:15

(machine whirs)

39:17

the most vocal challenges came from

39:27

concerned lay people in various denominations.

39:30

And, the way we dealt with it was, partly

39:35

to support those who were being attacked,

39:39

but it was also not to back off from, okay,

39:42

we understand you don't like this,

39:47

but we think this is something we need to be thinking about.

39:48

So that was one of the challenges.

39:52

There were some,

39:54

I would say the pushback or the challenge from

39:57

professional theologians was more muted

40:03

and probably more subtle.

40:07

I mean, there wasn't direct out and out,

40:09

although there would be comments about,

40:12

that doesn't seem to be what we ought to be doing

40:18

as theologians, and that kind of stuff.

40:20

But I would say the biggest challenge was,

40:24

was from the church and its denominational manifestations.

40:27

Woman

When you talk about the professional theologians,

40:34

was this in print or was this more comments?

40:36

Randy

I think it was more comments.

40:38

I mean, there were,

40:40

every now and then you'd see a comment in print

40:42

from a theologian who was questioning what was going on,

40:45

but that was, I'd say, much more muted.

40:48

And I'm not sure, I think

40:53

I think part of that was because

40:56

they said, this isn't a serious movement.

40:59

Woman

Oh, yeah.

41:01

Randy

I mean, they didn't think it was,

41:03

and I think

41:05

they thought, you know, we don't need to address this.

41:08

Well, they probably didn't.

41:14

But when the lay people got upset,

41:16

then in some sense, it became a serious movement.

41:19

Woman

Yes, yeah.

41:22

I wanted to go back to that issue of diversity because

41:23

I would say that the community did very well

41:29

at getting racially and ethnically diverse speakers.

41:32

Randy

Right.

41:35

Woman

The general population of the community

41:36

tended to be very white and middle class.

41:38

Randy

Right.

41:40

Woman

Would you agree with that?

41:42

Randy

Absolutely.

41:42

Woman

So do you have any thoughts on that?

41:43

Why that was?

41:44

Were there attempts to address that?

41:46

Just any reflections on that?

41:48

Randy

Well, one of the attempts to address it

41:50

was by the diversity of the speakers.

41:52

And we did,

41:56

we did try to incorporate into the kind of planning groups

41:57

women of color, especially African-American.

42:01

I think it's,

42:05

because it started out pretty much as a middle-class group,

42:08

I think it had some of the same problems

42:12

that every middle-class church group has,

42:14

and that's, how do you accommodate persons who don't have

42:16

for one thing, don't have time,

42:23

and they cannot give that kind of volunteer time

42:25

that most of us could.

42:27

Woman

Yes.

42:28

Randy

Because we were secure in our positions.

42:29

And I think

42:35

in some sense, the worship and the ritual

42:37

was going to the other direction.

42:40

In other words, it was not going towards

42:42

the spiritual African-American style.

42:45

It was heading the other way, in terms of much more,

42:48

much more adventuresome stuff.

42:51

And I think,

42:54

I think especially people of color,

42:56

their tradition of that kind of

43:00

of worship is so strong.

43:04

Woman

Yeah.

43:06

Randy

But they're not gonna really be attracted

43:09

to something that seems to be,

43:12

well, not only are we not moving our way,

43:14

you're moving another way.

43:18

Now, I mean,

43:19

I'm not sure that makes sense,

43:21

because I'm just kind of thinking it through

43:22

at this time.

43:24

Woman

Could you say a little bit more, yeah,

43:26

what details would make it move the other direction?

43:27

You said adventuresome.

43:29

Randy

Well, milk and honey, for some.

43:31

I mean, I don't think most African-American communities

43:33

would say, that doesn't fit with our tradition at all.

43:36

And, it didn't fit with mainline, either, but

43:41

the mainline was more, because middle class, okay,

43:44

we can try this.

43:47

So, I haven't thought this through much.

43:50

Woman

Sure.

43:54

Randy

That seems to be,

43:56

but as I say, I think the main issue is

43:58

what every church-based, traditional organization

44:00

the problem it has in trying to bridge

44:06

both ethnic differences and in some sense, class differences

44:10

and we were clearly middle class.

44:13

And that's who, basically, attended.

44:17

What we found, though, was that the middle class,

44:20

white,

44:24

spiritual people,

44:29

they had no outlet for their stuff, either.

44:31

And they had no way to find support,

44:33

especially if they were serving congregations

44:36

in smaller communities.

44:39

So for them, it became a lifeline.

44:42

And once that kinda got developed, it seems to me,

44:45

that's the direction it continued to go.

44:48

So, I mean, Church Women United was a part of that,

44:53

the impetus for this,

44:58

and that's primarily a white group, a middle-class group.

44:59

So, that's the way it stayed.

45:04

Woman

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, yeah.

45:06

You may have already answered this question.

45:09

I'll give you a minute to have your drink there.

45:11

But, what aspects of Re-Imagining

45:15

were most significant to you, and why?

45:17

Randy

Well, I, the theology, itself, was.

45:23

Much of my academic work,

45:27

and that experiential work was in liberation theology.

45:31

I would take students to Mexico.

45:35

I did that about 16 times.

45:37

Woman

Wow.

45:39

Randy

And part of that was,

45:40

they'd get a sense of what's going on

45:42

in the liberation community, particularly,

45:44

I mean not only Roman Catholic, but,

45:48

so I read a lot of liberation theology, so

45:50

Re-Imagining seemed to be a liberation movement.

45:56

And so, that resonated with what I was doing

46:00

in my own academic work.

46:06

So, for example, my sabbatical,

46:13

I had a sabbatical in Cuernavaca, Mexico in

46:14

what year was that?

46:20

'89, '90.

46:23

-

Huh.

46:24

-

Yeah.

And, what I did there was write a manual

46:26

on liberation theology.

46:27

You know, so it fit very much into that.

46:29

Woman

Yes, yes.

46:31

Randy

So that was one of the things

46:34

that very clearly resonated with me.

46:35

I think the sense of

46:40

creativity was important for me.

46:42

But the main attraction was the theology, itself,

46:49

which seemed to be another version

46:54

of what I was very interested in.

46:57

Woman

Yeah.

47:00

Very good.

47:02

How, or did your involvement in Re-Imagining change

47:04

your perspective on feminist theology and/or the church?

47:07

Randy

I don't know that I would say it changed

47:18

my perspective on theology.

47:20

It probably deepened it.

47:21

I have not, for example, done much with womenist theology,

47:24

which, as I think about it, that would be

47:28

kind of a further elaboration of this,

47:31

and I just haven't done much of that.

47:34

It kind of reinforced, confirmed, kind of,

47:38

my own sense of things.

47:42

But the truth, itself, I think it was both

47:46

I wouldn't say disappointed, but I was

47:53

I would have preferred that the church

47:58

not be quite so

48:00

quick to say no, no, no, we can't do this.

48:03

But much more willing to explore.

48:07

But that's why all of us were naive.

48:09

I mean we thought, okay, we're offering here a gift,

48:13

and why don't you take it?

48:16

Well, it's too threatening.

48:18

Woman

Why is it threatening?

48:21

Randy

Well, because I think it does say

48:23

you can look at the bible in different ways.

48:25

There's not just one way to talk about

48:28

major theological issues.

48:32

There's an openness here and that would suggest

48:35

there's maybe not one right answer, either.

48:39

And if you need to have something solid and secure,

48:42

we're not it, 'cause all we want to do is open things up.

48:46

We don't want to close things down.

48:50

So, I mean, I think that was, and that's, I think

48:52

what really threatened lay people was this sense of,

48:54

you mean, all I believed all these years,

48:57

maybe isn't quite what I believe?

49:00

Well, what does that mean?

49:02

And how do I deal with that?

49:03

And I think there's still some issues

49:06

with the liturgies of the church

49:10

because they claim to be still very traditional.

49:12

Even some of these nominations are very active

49:16

in social justice and ethics and

49:21

that kind of thing.

49:24

The liturgies, no, (mumbles)

49:26

God the father and Lord have mercy.

49:29

I mean, I understand why that is,

49:36

because when you've got a congregation

49:37

you've got the whole gamut and you cannot be

49:39

so far ahead that those who are more traditional

49:41

in their faith can't find a place.

49:45

But,

49:49

I think,

49:53

that's why in some sense, it was a

49:54

re-imagining movement.

49:58

We'll offer this.

50:03

If you can work with it, do it.

50:04

If not,

50:06

we're gonna still do it.

50:09

Woman

Yeah, yeah.

50:11

Did you think that, why don't you take a sip.

50:13

Did you think that the churches

50:16

would be further along in inclusive language in 2016?

50:18

Or, are you not surprised?

50:23

-

You mean today?

50:24

-

Today, yeah.

Randy

Well, I think we're there,

50:27

when you talk about academic stuff.

50:30

We're not there when you talk about

50:32

liturgical stuff.

50:35

Some are.

50:38

But it's more individual congregations.

50:40

It's not whole denominations.

50:43

And in some sense, some of the liturgy

50:47

has gone out of that.

50:49

It's kind of like, oh that's,

50:51

we've got other things to deal with, rather than that.

50:54

Which, in some sense, that's true.

50:57

I mean, you've got

51:03

lot of the justice issues now.

51:06

I'm not gonna fight over God the mother or daughter

51:09

or father.

51:11

It seems, okay, yeah, that's okay,

51:12

but that's not really what the issues are.

51:15

But, on the other hand, you could make a case

51:17

that if we could get that straight

51:19

the rest of it might actually get easier.

51:21

But, it's hard to make that case.

51:23

Woman

I want to pick up on one other word.

51:28

You said Re-Imagining movement,

51:29

you emphasized movement.

51:31

Why movement? What do you see?

51:34

Randy

Well, because I think

51:37

this was not just individuals.

51:38

I mean, there are individual theologians

51:40

but together they represented and still represent

51:43

a kind of larger reality.

51:48

I mean, that's what it became for at least 10 years

51:55

and then

51:59

as with other movements,

52:02

when it has done its work, then it needs to quit.

52:04

And I think we have done our work.

52:09

It would have been,

52:13

we could have continued, but I think that

52:15

some of the energy had gone out of it.

52:18

And, we were not saying, okay,

52:22

if we quit, we failed.

52:24

It's time to quit.

52:28

Woman

Yeah, yeah.

52:29

Randy

So, for me the movement, then, simply,

52:31

it's more than just one or two theologians.

52:33

There is a sense of, this is something that's happening

52:38

in the church.

52:41

But actually it's happening outside the church

52:43

as much.

52:46

(machine whirring)

52:47

So, in some ways, it was a way

53:01

of bridging the church and world.

53:03

Which, as I said, when my background is ethics

53:08

and society, and so for me it was

53:12

a way to confirm

53:16

professionally what I

53:19

actually studied and trained to do.

53:21

Woman

Could you say just a,

53:25

give an example of how you saw it

53:26

or examples of how you saw it bridging the church

53:27

and the world?

53:29

How is it doing that?

53:30

Randy

Well, I think some of those who attended,

53:31

for example, the conferences

53:33

had pretty much given up on the church.

53:34

And yet, here's something that is at least

53:37

under some auspices of the church,

53:40

and they're willing to do this and so maybe

53:43

we don't have to quite quit yet.

53:45

So, I don't know how many that was the case,

53:48

but I know there were some for whom, okay,

53:52

we'll give it a try again.

53:54

And whether they've stayed with it,

53:58

I don't know what's happened since.

54:00

But I do think that was one of the goals,

54:03

well, I don't know if it was one of the goals.

54:06

It became one of the results

54:08

was that the appeal was not just to tried and true

54:11

church members, it was to those who wanted

54:15

(mumbles) the church.

54:17

We gave them a place to say,

54:19

well maybe there is something down there.

54:20

So, that's basically what I mean is that

54:23

sense of trying to help those who

54:27

were having trouble with the church.

54:31

Say, well it's not a lost cause totally.

54:34

Woman

Right, yeah, yeah.

54:37

In the time we have left, and I so appreciate this,

54:39

we want to look a little bit toward the future.

54:43

And so, what do you think is the greatest legacy

54:45

of the Re-Imagining Community?

54:48

Randy

Well, I suspect the legacy is in

54:55

those individuals who participated in it,

54:58

and whether there's much for them

55:02

either in their faith life or their ministry life.

55:03

There are a couple of written documents,

55:11

so there is some of that.

55:15

But I think probably they focus more in terms of

55:21

what needs to happen in the lives of individuals

55:23

and then, to some extent,

55:27

what happened to parts of the church.

55:28

Woman

What do you think happened to parts of the church?

55:32

Randy

Well, some, I think, were

55:36

some did become more open.

55:44

Some allowed

55:48

it did give greater space to some,

55:58

especially women, who I think

56:02

might not have continued in the church

56:05

if they had not had a sense of, okay,

56:08

now I can try some stuff and still be accepted,

56:11

or, I can be true to my own sense of who I am

56:16

and still be in the church.

56:20

I suppose,

56:24

and I don't know the extent to which this is the case,

56:25

but part of the legacy is a sense of what

56:28

what can happen when committed people

56:33

decide it's time to do something.

56:37

It doesn't mean it's gonna change the world.

56:42

It doesn't mean it's gonna go on forever.

56:44

But it's like kind of a, okay,

56:46

grassroots movements still have their place

56:48

and can still

56:52

can still create a bit of excitement

56:56

and if individuals can connect to that, great.

56:59

But, we didn't go into it saying,

57:05

we want this to be our legacy.

57:06

We went into it saying, this is what we need to do

57:08

and then, let it happen.

57:11

Woman

Yeah, yeah.

57:14

Couple more quick questions.

57:17

What does re-imagining mean today?

57:19

Randy

Well, for me it means,

57:23

every now and then I see someone say,

57:28

well we need to re-imagine this, and they don't have a clue

57:29

that they're picking up on that movement

57:33

because as far as they (mumbles)

57:36

But I see it as a way of saying, yeah,

57:38

there is always a need for a re-imagining

57:41

what we're about, what we believe, what we think,

57:45

and how do we do that?

57:48

It has that kind of personal sense.

57:53

And I do think that,

57:58

for those who are able and willing to kinda take a look

58:00

it does refer to this really quite extraordinary event

58:05

in which, primarily, women got together and said,

58:12

we're not comfortable with how the tradition

58:16

has always described things, and we think we can,

58:19

there can be other ways of doing it.

58:23

So, in some sense what you're doing, probably,

58:27

(mumbles)

58:30

there's something here, let's take a look at it.

58:32

And it may not,

58:34

I mean, it's not current right now,

58:35

but you can look at it and say, okay, what did they do

58:37

that was able to get some stuff moving?

58:41

But for me, the re-imagining will always trigger,

58:49

whenever that word is used, whether it's in relation

58:53

to theology or anything else, it'll always trigger,

58:56

ah-ha, there was a movement once

58:59

that was really quite exciting and did some good stuff.

59:03

Woman

Yeah, yeah.

59:06

And my last question, which is very specific.

59:08

The community is creating a Re-Imagining website,

59:11

and I wonder if you had any thoughts about

59:16

what would be helpful to include in it,

59:19

who would benefit from it,

59:22

how we could get the word out, any of those issues,

59:24

any ideas on it?

59:26

Randy

Well, to be very honest, I have been

59:30

skeptical about trying to resurrect that.

59:34

Woman

Mm-hmm, say some more about that, yes.

59:38

Randy

Well, my own sense is that we did our thing,

59:41

we did what we wanted to do,

59:46

that particular dimension is done, let's let it rest.

59:50

Woman

Yeah.

59:54

Randy

I don't have a good sense of

59:57

what could be done because I,

59:59

especially if it's, those who are part of the original

1:00:02

Re-Imagining movement, most of them aren't gonna be

1:00:06

around much longer.

1:00:08

And so, unless the attempt is to appeal

1:00:10

to the younger generation,

1:00:15

I don't have a sense of what,

1:00:19

why that would be a good thing to do.

1:00:22

Woman

Yeah, fair enough.

1:00:24

Randy

But that's a personal opinion.

1:00:26

Woman

No, well that's good, and it's good to hear that.

1:00:26

I think that's very good.

1:00:28

We need to hear all those voices, that's good.

1:00:29

Last thing is, is there anything that we haven't

1:00:32

talked about that you would want to say?

1:00:35

Something we've left out of the conversation?

1:00:37

Randy

I think, not really.

1:00:47

I suppose, personally, for me,

1:00:49

what was a benefit was the fact that

1:00:52

I was out of a Lutheran context,

1:00:56

meaning the ecumenical context.

1:00:59

So, for example, Sally Martin who,

1:01:01

a musician I would never have come in contact with her

1:01:05

except through this,

1:01:08

and some of the other women

1:01:11

who represented other denominations

1:01:12

and I think that was one of the geniuses of it

1:01:16

was that it could span denominational lines,

1:01:18

not just Protestant, but especially Roman Catholic,

1:01:20

Protestant lines.

1:01:24

So, I mean, that was a diversity also

1:01:29

that was a positive diversity, especially for me.

1:01:32

But it did bring together

1:01:37

the Catholic nuns, sisters, Protestant theologians,

1:01:39

Protestant pastors, lay people from all over, so,

1:01:44

that ability to appeal

1:01:50

was a good thing.

1:01:54

But no, I mean,

1:01:57

when Jerry and Pam and I get together,

1:02:03

we don't talk about Re-Imagining so much anymore

1:02:05

because now we all go, what's going on in your life?

1:02:08

Woman

I love it.

1:02:11

Randy

I went to Joe Engenberg's funeral,

1:02:16

so when those things come along,

1:02:20

there is still a tie that says, okay,

1:02:22

let's get back into that and,

1:02:25

or not get back into it, but let's remember that,

1:02:27

affirm what happened.

1:02:31

Woman

Yes.

1:02:33

Yeah.

1:02:34

Thank you very much, Randy. I really appreciate it.

1:02:36

Nelson, Randy

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