Preus, Mary / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Mary, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed,

0:02

if you could just say and spell your full name?

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Mary Preus, M-A-R-Y P-R-E-U-S.

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Thank you so much, and are you lay or clergy?

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I'm lay.

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And what is your denominational affiliation?

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Well formally, I am a member

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of the Ecumenical Community of St. Martin,

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that's where my church membership lies.

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And I was born and raised a Lutheran and have worked

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in a Lutheran church for over 20 years.

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Wonderful, okay, that's great.

0:31

So that is an interesting background.

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Right.

0:36

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Um, great.

Could you say a little bit more about

0:37

the Ecumenical Community of St. Martin's people?

0:39

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That is the group that began St. Martin's Table,

0:42

so the Community of St. Martin is the membership group

0:45

that meets as a worshiping community every Sunday evening.

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And we've been meeting over here in the Seward neighborhood

0:52

or over where St. Martin's Table was,

0:55

on Riverside Avenue for 30 years.

0:58

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Wow.

1:02

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So that's a group of people

who take as their main focus

1:04

the non-violent peace making of Jesus,

1:08

and follow that as a mission.

1:11

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Thank you, that's great.

1:15

So, where did you go to school?

1:17

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College, I'm assuming you're wondering?

1:20

(Mary laughs)

1:21

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Yes, that would be great.

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I went to college in several different places.

1:23

I was a slow learner and not a good academic person

1:25

as a young person, as an adult I got very interested in it,

1:28

so I've been to several different colleges

1:32

as a matter of fact, and ended up graduating

1:34

from Metropolitan State University in St. Paul,

1:36

as a thirty-something year old.

1:39

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Well, good for you.

1:41

(they both laugh)

1:43

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And what work or ministry were you doing at the time

1:45

of Re-Imagining, that was several years

1:47

actually you were involved, so in that time?

1:49

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Right, right.

1:51

I have always been

1:52

in a musical group of some sort.

1:56

So when the first Re-Imagining community got going,

1:59

I had been directing Calliope Women's Chorus

2:03

in the Twin Cities, and was just getting

2:05

an invitation from Our Savior's Lutheran Church

2:08

to be their music director.

2:11

I was a member of Spirit of the Lakes, UCC Church,

2:13

and part of, you know, a worship team there.

2:16

I had also been part of a little house group of women

2:21

that met to sort of do, what I think probably was happening,

2:25

although I haven't done research on this,

2:29

so this would be interesting, you know, kind of starting

2:30

out little cells of worshiping groups as women.

2:33

And looking at women's history in Christian worship

2:38

as well as in other, you know,

2:41

kinds of worship around the world.

2:44

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Oh, you know, that's fascinating.

2:46

Tell me a little bit more about that, what your group did.

2:47

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Well, so I left the church for a long time,

2:49

like I think a lot of women did, for the very reason

2:51

that I found it to be completely patriarchal and sexist.

2:54

And once I grew up a little bit, and realized

2:57

that I had been steeped in a religious, worshiping life,

2:59

my father was a Lutheran pastor, and that it was a part

3:03

of my life that I needed and wanted,

3:06

I latched on to Spirit of the Lakes

3:11

and got to that UCC Church.

3:13

Within that church body, there were some women

3:17

who were exploring what women might have been doing

3:19

in world religions throughout history.

3:23

We gathered then in homes, it was only about,

3:26

sometimes maybe, six to 10 of us,

3:30

and someone would fashion something

3:33

that involved some prayer and some singing,

3:36

maybe some reading or poetry, some silence,

3:38

some reflection, and that sparked me again

3:41

and made me realize what I'd been missing.

3:45

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So, just to understand, so this was interfaith then?

3:48

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Right, Christian.

3:50

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Christian.

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Actually it was Christian, but we were looking

3:52

at it from an interfaith perspective.

3:54

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Okay, I see.

3:56

Fascinating, what was the name of the group,

3:57

do they have a name?

3:58

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That name didn't have a group, I don't think,

3:59

I can't quite remember.

4:01

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Sure.

4:02

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We might have called ourselves something.

4:03

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That is really interesting.

4:04

So, what work or ministry did you do after Re-Imagining?

4:05

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Well that was when I was called, so to speak,

4:10

literally practically dragged, back

4:14

into the Lutheran Church body

4:17

(they both laugh)

4:18

by a very persuasive pastor at Our Savior's Lutheran Church,

4:19

who said to me, "I think you belong here."

4:22

And I said "no", several times, it was a little bit

4:25

like quitting smoking, you have to do it

4:28

several times before it finally takes.

4:30

Luckily, the co-pastor at Our Savior's was at that time,

4:33

Janet Tiedemann, and she was a strong feminist,

4:37

and a pastor from a kind of a cosmological perspective,

4:40

which I found to be fascinating,

4:44

and it was her call as well, then that said to me,

4:46

"I think you can thrive here."

4:49

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Wonderful.

4:51

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So that's where I've been.

And I've been there for more than 20 years,

4:53

and I have been thriving.

4:55

Now in the meantime, I also was just becoming a member

4:57

of the Community of St. Martin, so this ecumenical community

4:59

called to me more from the mission part and ministry.

5:03

That is how I understand Jesus' call to us,

5:07

is to follow his path of peace and so that spoke

5:10

to me directly and made me want to become a member of that.

5:12

Now someone else was leading worship there at the time,

5:16

so I was part of a music kind of, part of the music group,

5:18

but I did not, now I am also the worship coordinator

5:21

for that community.

5:24

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Oh really?

5:25

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So what Re-Imagining did

for me was to really help launch me into worship leadership,

5:27

from a lay perspective.

5:31

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Yes.

5:33

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As musician

and prayer leader and Bible study leader.

5:33

I've been leading Bible studies at Our Savior's now

5:36

for more than 12 years, I guess.

5:38

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Before we go on, I want to hear a little bit more.

5:42

How did Re-Imagining help you do that,

5:44

what role did it play in that?

5:46

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Well, you know, now that you have

5:47

started asking me this,

5:51

and I've been thinking about it

5:52

before we got here for this interview.

5:53

It had a very big role, but it was hard to describe,

5:56

I was trying to think about how I would describe it.

6:00

It was very emotional for me, to be part of all

6:03

of the conferences I was part of.

6:06

I think seeing women in full leadership and power

6:10

around spiritual theological issues,

6:15

around worship leadership and music leadership and prayer.

6:18

It was just absolutely stunning to me,

6:22

and since I was sort of fairly young, you know,

6:24

in my thirties when it got going,

6:27

I just found it to be amazing and really

6:31

strengthening, informing, empowering, absolutely for me.

6:36

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Yes, yeah.

6:41

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Luckily I was part of, now I know you

6:42

might get into this later, but--

6:44

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Go ahead, go for it.

6:45

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Part of some, these communities as you can tell,

6:46

Spirit of the Lakes, UCC, kind of even on the edge

6:49

of the UCC Church, the Ecumenical Community of St. Martin

6:51

is a bunch of peace-niks, you know, so always

6:55

as part of their mission statement, open to LGBTQ people,

6:58

and women in leadership, absolutely.

7:02

And then Our Savior's, which had a more standard,

7:05

kind of Lutheran presence, but the people there at the time,

7:07

were very, had just sort of broken

7:10

that church body open too.

7:12

So I did not, I felt the support from all around me.

7:13

I was really lucky in that way.

7:18

I did not have to struggle, although I think

7:19

that's probably been strengthening for some women too,

7:22

the struggle, but I didn't have to struggle

7:24

from my perspective and my job--

7:26

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Yes.

7:29

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My job was not threatened.

My job, if anything, was enhanced.

7:31

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That's great.

7:34

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Yeah, it really is.

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So, Mary, when and how did you first

7:36

become interested in feminist theology?

7:38

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I bet I was interested in it when I was a child.

7:41

(they both laugh)

7:44

And actually, I also have to give some credit to my mother.

7:46

My mother went back and finished her college degree

7:49

when she was in her fifties, and then in her sixties,

7:52

she went to Luther Seminary, as a Lutheran pastor's wife,

7:55

and God, she did not feel comfortable to go for ordination,

7:58

or you know, I don't know what quite

8:03

all the thinking was behind that.

8:05

But she got her MA from Luther, and part

8:07

of her particular studies was women's studies in the church.

8:09

So she, all of a sudden, had a library full

8:13

of feminist theologians, and there it was for me to say,

8:16

"oh, wow, this is an actual school of thought.

8:21

This isn't just me saying why is

8:24

the church so patriarchal and sexist?"

8:26

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Wow, good for your mom.

8:29

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I know, really awesome in that period

8:30

and at that age for her.

8:33

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Yeah, when would this have been, roughly,

8:34

what decade would she have gone?

8:36

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That would probably have been in the '80s,

8:38

early '80s or late '70s.

8:40

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Good for her, that's great.

8:42

So let's move to Re-Imagining, and you were already involved

8:44

at the first conference in '93.

8:47

First of all, how did you ever get involved in Re-Imagining?

8:49

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Well, actually it was that connection

8:52

between the Community of St. Martin.

8:54

So within our worshiping group there we had some Catholic,

8:56

people from a Catholic background, and they knew

9:00

Madeline Sue Martin, who was the music coordinator

9:03

and worship coordinator for that first conference.

9:06

I then, so before the first conference, we asked her

9:10

to do a little training for the worship and music leaders

9:13

at the Community of St. Martin, which we did in her home.

9:15

It's one of the most beautiful, blessed memories

9:18

I remember from worship leadership.

9:20

Because from her Catholic perspective,

9:23

her feminist perspective, her rich training,

9:25

and experience and gifts that she had, she would bring us

9:29

around her table, and she would have colors and candles

9:33

and symbols and rocks and shells.

9:38

And she would have us together as a small group,

9:40

just discover what the symbolism of worship

9:43

that was really going to be meaningful to us

9:47

and to really explore kind of both the tradition and then,

9:49

what she was the best at was cracking

9:53

that open in a creative way.

9:55

So she would say, "okay, this is

9:57

what you might do traditionally.

9:58

Now what might you do today?

10:00

Or with these colors around you,

10:02

or this theme that you have?"

10:05

So she really guided us and then when we learned that,

10:08

well when, I guess, I got the call from her.

10:12

So she knew that I was a singing song leader,

10:14

a choir director and when she got this position

10:17

doing worship for the first conference,

10:21

she asked me to be part of that group.

10:23

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So, it sounds like Madeline Sue was always building

10:26

on tradition, she knew the tradition

10:29

and then was moving beyond.

10:31

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Well she was a worship professor at Notre Dame,

10:33

so yeah, she knew the tradition well.

10:35

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Yeah. So what was that process like,

10:38

what do you remember of it, Mary?

10:40

Working on getting a ritual ready?

10:41

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For first one?

10:43

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Yeah, the first one.

10:44

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Yeah, the first one was very interesting,

10:45

and I must say, you know obviously, the first of anything

10:46

is amazing, because you take so much time and effort.

10:52

And I think one of the best things about

10:56

that first conference was the breadth and depth

10:58

of both the participants and the outcome.

11:01

There was a broad ecumenical investment,

11:04

there was also a strong feeling

11:09

of not having it be white dominated,

11:13

although a lot of the steering committee was white,

11:15

and being here in Minnesota, I think that was part

11:17

of the reason for that, but there was a strong,

11:19

strong effort to have all women's voices be heard,

11:22

and that was challenging, it's really hard to do that.

11:25

And so you run up against a lot of roadblocks,

11:28

which we did, but we worked through those in ways

11:31

that were so enriching for so many of us.

11:34

So we used a lot of music that was different

11:37

and interesting, newly composed,

11:40

a lot of creative, creative work.

11:42

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Yes, yeah.

11:44

Are there specific moments that you remember

11:45

from that '93 conference?

11:48

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Yes, I have to spur myself on with some pictures,

11:53

because of course for me, in a lot of the conferences

11:57

it was some of these amazing speakers, when I heard them,

12:00

that just made my jaw drop.

12:04

I mean, I have since learned to know some of them more,

12:06

and now that I'm looking at this first one,

12:10

I'm just thinking, first of all, they look so young!

12:12

(they both laugh)

12:14

Because I know some of them now.

12:16

Yeah, it was, I mean, just looking over these pictures,

12:20

is very moving, because of course, some of these women

12:24

are no longer with us, and that's touching.

12:28

And then some of them have made such an incredible name

12:32

for themselves in the communities that I'm part of,

12:34

Rita Nakashima Brock, and Barbara Lundblad,

12:37

I probably know the best, personally.

12:40

There's women from all over the world,

12:44

and when I heard Jose Hobday and Delores Williams,

12:46

you know, when I think of the other,

12:50

Re-Imagining conferences, you know Mary Daly was,

12:54

and Alice Walker's daughter Rebecca Walker,

12:57

as giving her amazing testimony as a bisexual

13:01

African American woman was just stunning to me, so...

13:05

Yeah, those things, now as a musician, I remember like,

13:09

from that first conference, working with Madeline Sue,

13:12

who was at that point called Sue Side Martin,

13:14

she gathered a choir that was very diverse

13:18

and eclectic and interesting, and I remember

13:22

that being a little complicated, you know,

13:24

trying to figure out who was leading

13:26

and what the style was going to be, and,

13:28

but complicated in a good way.

13:31

We had a really good time, and got

13:32

to know really diverse, interesting women.

13:34

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Amazing, now you were also involved in the 1998

13:37

and the 2000, and you became more and more involved

13:40

in things, so are there memories you have of that?

13:43

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Well, yeah, as you take on more responsibility,

13:46

of course then it gets to be a little bit more of a job.

13:49

So, then I feel I can, you know just thinking about it,

13:52

feel more the weight of responsibility.

13:55

I think that the Re-Imagining community was drawn

13:57

to the group I was part of, Bread for the Journey,

14:00

because we had made it a focus of ours

14:03

to do music from around the world,

14:06

and we'd done a lot of investigating

14:08

of global Christian music in particular.

14:09

And because, as I said, from the very beginning,

14:12

that was always a theme for Re-Imagining,

14:14

was this world-wide interest in women's theology

14:16

and what feminists were doing all around the world.

14:22

That music really fit well, so it was fun to work

14:25

with the members of the steering committee

14:29

for those conferences, and like I said, it did feel

14:31

like more responsibility, but the conferences themselves,

14:34

of course never have the same impact as that first one did.

14:37

But they were each rich and amazing in their own way.

14:41

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Yeah, I'd like to hear a little bit more

14:45

about Bread for the Journey, because they were so important.

14:47

How did that group get started?

14:48

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Well, I think that grew out of the ELCA,

14:50

the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's

14:56

global mission events and the invitation of the director

14:58

of that, a woman named Bonnie Jensen,

15:02

who was an amazing woman also in putting together worship

15:04

and understanding what richness the world church brought

15:08

to worship here in North America.

15:13

So, how for so many of us, we almost need to hear

15:15

the gospel message from people who are on fire

15:18

with the gospel, those of us who've just grown complacent

15:21

and have had it in our background for centuries

15:24

and don't even think about it anymore.

15:27

And she encouraged us to really do some investigating

15:29

into the music of Christians around the world.

15:33

And so to bring that to the Re-Imagining community really

15:38

made a lot of sense and we had a good connection there.

15:40

Bread for the Journey was started really by Tom Witt,

15:42

and because I was his partner at that point,

15:47

he asked me to be part of it and he's a keyboard player

15:49

primarily, and then we called upon other colleagues

15:53

we know who play a variety of instruments,

15:57

and love to sing, so that we could do harmonies

15:59

and put together a little band.

16:02

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Don't even know, you're a singer,

16:03

are you also an instrumentalist?

16:05

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My voice is my primary instrument,

16:06

and then I also play the guitar and the flute.

16:08

And then as a group, when Bread for the Journey got started,

16:10

and I believe it was in the Re-Imagining community

16:13

that we, or during that time, that we took some

16:15

little drumming lessons from another amazing woman

16:18

in the Twin Cities, Colleen Haas,

16:21

who had her own drumming studio.

16:22

And she helped us to learn some of the rhythms

16:25

from around the world, so that we could do some

16:28

of that music with more authenticity, or at least, a flavor.

16:30

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How neat.

16:34

Now you mentioned the backlash did not affect you,

16:35

in fact if anything, it was,

16:38

the conference was positive for you,

16:41

which I'm glad to hear.

16:43

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Strangely.

I mean, you know, other than interesting.

16:44

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In what way was it positive for you?

16:45

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Well, I think for me, both the global mission events

16:48

at the ELCA and these Re-Imagining events, you know,

16:53

to have, it's like traveling the world.

16:56

To have that kind of openness and challenge and breadth

16:58

of experience and just knowledge and wisdom,

17:02

be poured into your life, at a point

17:06

where you're really excited and open, welcoming to it,

17:08

was not only educational for me.

17:12

I mean, as I said to you when you were talking to me before,

17:14

I'm not a great academic student in a school setting.

17:16

But when I'm in a setting like that where I'm listening

17:20

to people talk and hearing their wisdom

17:23

and their life experience, I just sucked it up.

17:25

So it also then helped to establish, for my life,

17:30

as a worship music person here in the Twin Cities,

17:34

that I had this kind of global breadth and understanding

17:37

that I could bring then, to these local communities here,

17:41

which is such a gift, it's just an honor,

17:44

it's a real honor and a gift for me.

17:47

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Wonderful, Mary.

17:49

Now I'm sure you were aware of the backlash,

17:50

how did you react to it?

17:52

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I have little patience for the church institution

17:56

that struggles with change in such a deep way.

18:01

And I feel a little confessional about that,

18:05

because of course, my family has a long history

18:09

in the Lutheran church and has been a big part

18:11

of helping to actually form that body and shape it

18:15

here in the United States and especially in the Midwest.

18:18

So I have to always watch my impatience, you know,

18:20

especially talking to people from my family,

18:24

but just in my own self and remember that institutions

18:26

always move more slowly than people, individuals of course,

18:29

but even groups of people can move much more quickly.

18:33

Which is what I think the Re-Imagining community

18:36

was able to do, was to step out of some

18:38

of those institutions and then just fly.

18:40

Not that it didn't encounter stumbling blocks itself,

18:42

and not that there isn't dissension amongst women

18:45

who are feminist theologians.

18:48

But to be able to just take that trajectory and say,

18:50

"where could we go, if the institution

18:53

was not holding us back?", was really what happened there.

18:55

I felt so deeply saddened by hearing of women

19:00

who lost their positions and lost their tenure

19:03

or their job, you know important, well-paid jobs,

19:06

and had to kind of start over themselves.

19:10

That was to me, just tragic.

19:13

So I think those church bodies made a mistake,

19:15

I mean, I think they lost some valuable, valuable gifts.

19:18

So that saddens me.

19:22

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Yeah, and I think you're already answering the question,

19:23

but I wonder if you want to say anything more.

19:25

How would you account for the backlash,

19:27

I mean institutional's resistance to change,

19:29

is there anything else that you think was going on?

19:31

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Well, the male fear of women's power,

19:33

so all the weird interpretations of what we were doing

19:35

with milk and honey and breasts and you know, images of God.

19:39

And you know, that is all so bizarre to me,

19:42

because of course, much of that imagery is ancient

19:45

which of course, a lot of Christian imagery is as well,

19:48

and has borrowed from, so it wasn't so strange,

19:51

but it was that we focused on that

19:54

and then that became, that was lifted up.

19:57

And I think that was just really threatening,

20:00

not only to men, but to some women as well,

20:01

who were steeped in traditional Christian images and values.

20:03

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Yeah.

20:08

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Yeah.

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Yeah, good, good.

20:09

Mary, how would you define Re-Imagining?

20:11

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Yeah, you know, makes me want to,

20:14

I was looking at these files earlier,

20:16

when I thought we were meeting, and I saw a really good

20:18

(they both laugh)

20:20

definition in one of the newsletters,

20:21

and now I can't quite remember it.

20:22

I think that the word itself, of course,

20:24

says what it's doing, so it's imagining

20:27

God and the body of Christ

20:34

and it's re-imagining it, because we are,

20:39

like I said before, we're not discarding the tradition,

20:41

but we're taking the tradition

20:45

and really digging into it to find the richness

20:47

of its feminine imagery, of its strong,

20:52

feminist values for love and peace-making and compassion,

20:57

for world peace, you know, for just all kinds,

21:01

I mean, that's one of the things from Re-Imagining

21:06

that I remember feeling to be so stunning,

21:08

and of course, really inline with my,

21:11

with my theological interests, and that is

21:13

how much it was about world peace

21:15

from a women's, mother's, sister point of view.

21:17

You know, just a lot more than I thought

21:24

it would be in that regard.

21:26

So Re-Imagining, Re-Imagining, kind of, I would say

21:27

the whole body, the worshiping, studying, theological,

21:32

living, breathing, body, of Christ in the world.

21:37

-

Beautiful, I'm glad you didn't

21:42

find the written one, that was great!

21:44

(they both laugh)

21:45

As you look back on it, how would you say,

21:48

'cause you were involved in planning and participating,

21:49

how did feminist theology affect the process

21:52

of the community, the way it functioned?

21:56

-

As I recall, I believe there was

22:00

a strong emphasis on consensus.

22:02

As complicated as that is, because I've done that

22:09

in a couple other working groups that I've been in

22:13

in my life, that weren't related to Re-Imagining.

22:16

I know just what a long draw-out complicated process

22:18

that can be, really listening for every voice,

22:22

and not making a decision until

22:26

every voice has really been considered.

22:28

It's arduous.

22:31

So I think we did that more and less

22:34

at some different points in time and depending on what,

22:37

you know, working group you were part of.

22:40

But it was always emphasized through every conference

22:42

that I was part of, and the steering committee I thought,

22:45

(coughs)

22:49

excuse me, had a real emphasis

22:51

on not operating in a hierarchical way.

22:53

-

Mm hmm.

22:57

-

So that was beautiful to be part of.

22:58

-

Yeah.

23:00

You mentioned, you used the word complicated here,

23:02

what challenges would you say were faced by the community

23:04

during its 10 years of existence,

23:08

and how were they addressed?

23:10

-

Obviously the challenges of people's personal struggle

23:13

within their own, other jobs and church bodies

23:17

and authorities that they had to with, so there was that.

23:21

Within the Re-Imagining community, I think there was

23:25

some of the typical challenges that small groups encounter:

23:28

burnout, aging out of some of the people involved,

23:31

people who felt a strong commitment to Re-Imagining,

23:39

but didn't necessarily want to take on any leadership role,

23:43

maybe some dissension, although I don't really

23:48

remember a lot of that, actually.

23:50

Women kind of disagree with what they,

23:52

I think the mission went amazingly

23:54

and kind of ministry of Re-Imagining remained

23:56

quite clear throughout those 10 years.

23:59

Which is great.

24:02

-

It is, that is wonderful.

24:03

You've kind of addressed this, but I'm going to ask it

24:06

and see if other ideas come to your mind.

24:08

What aspects of Re-Imagining were

24:10

most significant to you and why?

24:12

-

Yeah, as I said, lifting up the power of women.

24:18

The knowledge and wisdom and power

24:22

of women within the church.

24:23

-

Mm hmm.

24:26

-

I've just been doing some reading lately,

24:27

about the ancient church in Ireland coming up

24:29

against the Roman empire when they were making

24:33

those interesting church decisions in the eighth century,

24:35

and it's just stunning, to see, you know,

24:40

what happened with kind of male dominance

24:43

within the Catholic Church at that point.

24:45

So anyway, not to get too far back in history,

24:49

so reclaiming and re-imagining women's strength, wisdom

24:53

and knowledge in the church, which is so ironic, isn't it,

24:57

when you think of it now, because now we talk about,

25:00

"oh, it's just all women in the church."

25:03

Or I'll have men say to me, "women have

25:05

a more natural affiliation to the church."

25:07

Well why in the world shouldn't they be running it then?

25:09

Or directing it, or you know, helping to lead it?

25:12

If women have throughout the ages, had this kind of wisdom

25:14

and knowledge of what it means

25:18

to have a spiritual life for the family.

25:19

Yeah, so it only made sense to me.

25:22

There was some, for me the whole Re-Imagining thing

25:23

was like a "ah-ha!" moments the entire time,

25:26

like yes, yes, yes!

25:29

I could just say, you know.

25:31

(they both laugh)

25:32

And then of course, yeah,

25:35

so the challenges of women thinkers,

25:38

who would come up with, not only just kind of brilliance

25:41

in their words, but then, the emphasis

25:47

that the Re-Imagining community had

25:49

on this international community, so you got

25:51

these influences from cultures that were really different

25:54

from American or European culture,

25:57

and those were stunning.

26:00

You know, I wish I could think of something in particular

26:02

that jumped out to me right now, because I've had

26:04

so many global Christian experiences in my life,

26:07

they get a little bit mixed up together.

26:09

But, yeah, the images of God as mother

26:13

and God as birthing, creative,

26:16

cosmology in the world of the word and wisdom,

26:23

you know, being one, all of that just changed for me,

26:28

the way I look at the Bible, the way I lead worship,

26:32

they way I look at music, it's really fundamental.

26:34

-

Yeah, well that brings me to my next question.

26:37

Which is, how did you involvement in Re-Imagining

26:39

change your perspective on feminist theology

26:41

and or the church?

26:44

-

Mm hmm, yeah.

26:45

Well, and I would have to say that this is kind of the same

26:46

as feminism in general in our culture right now.

26:50

You know, the question about what happened to it,

26:53

like, people will say, "what happened to feminism?"

26:55

Well, so for me, in the communities that I move in,

26:57

which I recognize are really off

27:00

on the left progressive end,

27:02

and I am sometimes a little chagrined about that,

27:05

because I don't know that it's healthy for me to stay

27:07

in that little safety zone.

27:09

The rest of the world, obviously from our elections

27:13

that are going on, are operating

27:15

in a much different way than I do in my circles.

27:17

So, for me, it was like, "oh, feminism just moved

27:21

into the world and became widely accepted

27:25

and part of who we are."

27:29

Well, that was my little world, and of course,

27:31

I don't think that's true.

27:34

So I think it was a backlash, so it's that whole thing

27:35

about one step forward and two steps back.

27:38

So there was a backlash within the church.

27:40

However, I would have to say that the GLBTQ movement

27:43

has helped to move also a lot of the feminist agenda forward

27:46

as well as the anti-racist agenda.

27:50

So, praise the Lord, praise the goddess,

27:54

we are all, you know, working together to make for a world

27:59

that is valuing the wisdom, knowledge, gifts and leadership

28:03

of all people, regardless of any of those things

28:09

that I don't even look at anymore, so it's hard for me

28:12

when I get, even into a conversation with people about,

28:15

"oh, well she was a woman who the head

28:18

of a church all by herself," that I think, "yeah, I mean..."

28:19

Or you know, "can a transgender person be a pastor?"

28:23

And I'm just like, "well, why couldn't they?"

28:26

I mean, it's just, for me, like I said,

28:28

I get kind of impatient about that.

28:30

-

Do you think any of this is the legacy of Re-Imagining

28:33

or do you think mostly the backlash was effective in...

28:36

What do you think?

28:41

-

Hmm, in moving the feminism into the church, or?

28:42

-

Yeah, was it, did Re-Imagining succeed in doing that?

28:44

What is the legacy of it in the end, would you say?

28:47

-

Oh absolutely, I think they succeeded.

28:49

I think the movement succeeded, you know,

28:51

to some of us it might be to a smaller degree

28:55

than we had hoped, but it's just

28:57

that incremental and it's in there now.

28:59

I mean, if you look at, well 'cause of my perspective

29:02

with music, you know, hymnity of the church now,

29:05

the, a lot of churches are still really resistant

29:08

to it, so you can't discount the fact

29:12

that there are small rural churches for example,

29:14

all around the world that are still using old resources

29:17

and still want to do the same thing

29:20

that they did a hundred years ago.

29:22

But, for the church moving forward,

29:23

change of language in hymns, definitely.

29:27

Change of language in worship, I mean, I'd have to say

29:30

that in the Christian context, the UCC Church,

29:33

has obviously been in the forefront of that,

29:36

because they started doing it before anybody else did.

29:38

But in almost every denomination now, that has,

29:40

it's just mysterious to me though,

29:45

that it's still only 30, in the 30 years,

29:46

somewhere for most of the main Protestant denominations

29:50

that women have been ordained.

29:52

It just, I mean, if you look at that, that's not very long--

29:55

-

Right.

29:58

-

In church history, so...

29:58

-

That's true.

29:59

-

So to have the Re-Imagining movement in the midst

30:00

of those 30 years, makes such a strong impact,

30:02

has been such an incredible blessing and legacy,

30:06

gift of that community.

30:09

-

Great, oh that's wonderful.

30:11

Couple, two final questions.

30:15

What do you think Re-Imagining means today

30:17

and I don't just mean the Re-Imagining community,

30:18

but I mean, what needs to be re-imagined still

30:21

in church and society?

30:24

-

That's the big question!

30:26

That's the one we're asking ourselves all of us

30:28

who are leadership in churches that are caring

30:30

about that and thinking about it.

30:32

-

Exactly.

30:34

-

What does it mean to re-imagine church today?

30:35

As in the body of Christ as what I would say.

30:38

Because what I see are a lot of different expressions

30:41

out there now, it's not as homogeneous as it once was.

30:45

And so, then I think what it means is what unites us

30:49

and what allows us to be different and diverse

30:54

and interesting and still fit into the body.

30:58

So that's what I'd have to say.

31:04

Like, we're back to sort of house churches

31:05

and giant mega-churches and still some kind of

31:07

little brick on the corner churches

31:10

and you know, within that, what I would hope,

31:13

and this is where, you know, like I said,

31:17

one step forward two steps back.

31:21

You know some of those communities are actually going

31:23

backwards in the conservative way that I would say,

31:26

they're still very male, very hierarchical,

31:29

very patriarchal, God is a king, we're going to heaven,

31:31

and that's sort of the end of the story.

31:34

So that's troubling to me, but I think that the groups

31:37

that feel they're moving into the new millennium

31:41

and the new world, are all asking themselves,

31:44

"what does this look like now,

31:49

how can we be welcoming and open?"

31:51

It's not as easy as that, though.

31:57

That just sounds like some of that kind of cliched language

31:58

that we've been using, so I'm struggling with that question.

32:00

I'll tell you right now, my answer to that is,

32:03

we're struggling with that question,

32:05

and I think it's gonna be a really good struggle.

32:07

But I don't know that I really see very clearly,

32:09

what that's going to look like.

32:14

-

So what is it that keeps you tied

32:16

to the Christian tradition?

32:18

-

Mm hmm, yeah.

32:20

Well I think that struggle is pretty fascinating actually

32:21

right now, because of so many interesting things happening.

32:22

And because I see brothers and sisters

32:28

in the faith struggling together to...

32:31

Well what keeps me in the faith is,

32:37

what keeps me in the Christian faith,

32:41

is Jesus, I would have to say.

32:42

So as a feminist, that's interesting.

32:44

-

What is it about Jesus?

32:47

-

Well, Jesus was a feminist.

32:49

(she laughs)

32:51

So there you go.

32:52

(they both laugh)

32:53

-

In what way, was He a feminist?

32:55

-

Well, Jesus was inclusive.

32:57

And not only a feminist in that regard,

32:59

but I think more challenging, almost than feminism now,

33:02

as I'm talking about the future of the church,

33:04

is Jesus hung out with the wrong people.

33:06

And we don't and haven't done that

33:10

in the Christian faith very much.

33:12

Isn't that interesting, that we stabilized ourselves

33:15

in places that were just like us,

33:17

and made kind of comfortable homes for ourselves.

33:20

So that's what I think the struggle coming up is all about,

33:23

is what does it mean to follow, really follow,

33:26

like Gandhi said, "if Christians really followed Jesus,

33:29

the world would be a much different place."

33:32

And much more peaceful for one thing.

33:34

So if we follow the way of peace and the way of hanging out

33:36

with the wrong people, I think we could really move

33:40

into an interesting future, that's why I hang with Jesus.

33:45

-

Yeah, I love it.

33:48

One last question, the Re-Imagining community is developing

33:49

a website and part of it's going to be historical,

33:52

we are digitizing all of the conferences, they're going

33:56

to be available online, a bunch of different resources.

33:58

So I'm wondering if you have thoughts about

34:02

what would be helpful to include in that website.

34:04

-

I would just love to have some

34:08

of what we've been talking about, like the history,

34:09

a timeline would be really fun to see.

34:12

-

Okay, great.

34:14

-

Even just a little timeline of events and maybe

34:16

kind of main names that were associated with them,

34:18

or ways you could link into who were the presenters--

34:20

-

Great idea.

34:23

-

And where and when did that happen.

34:24

-

Yeah.

34:25

-

And then, a continuing, almost blog-like conversation

34:26

about what we've just been talking about,

34:31

what did Re-Imagining mean then, what was accomplished,

34:33

or what happened during all those years,

34:36

and then what's happening as a kind of a outgrowth

34:38

of all of that amazing energy, would be really fascinating.

34:42

-

That is great, wonderful ideas!

34:46

Is there anything we haven't discussed

34:49

that you would like to add?

34:51

-

Well, I do just want to reiterate as we did

34:53

before we started taping, the legacy of Madeline Sue Martin

34:55

and just what an influence she was on men and women alike

34:59

and the people she worked with, so it's tearing me up

35:04

because she was amazing

35:07

and she was so ahead of her time.

35:10

So to have her be leading us into that future

35:14

was just an amazing, beautiful thing.

35:19

-

Thank you so much.

35:21

-

Well, thank you.

35:22

-

Thank you.

Preus, Mary

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