Medinger, Mary Kaye / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Mary Kaye, thank you so much for agreeing

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to be interviewed, if you could just say

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and perhaps spell your full name?

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My real full name?

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Sure, go for it.

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The whole Litany of the Saint?

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(laughter)

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This sounds intriguing, you'll have to tell me.

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My full name is Mary Catherine Therese Medinger.

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Wow.

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I go by Mary Kaye Medinger.

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Mary, M-A-R-Y, Kaye, K-A-Y-E,

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Medinger, M-E-D-I-N-G-E-R.

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You did get several saints in there didn't you?

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I love it!

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Oh that's wonderful.

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Are you lay or clergy?

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Lay and Catholic.

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Yes, exactly.

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When and where were you born, Mary Kaye?

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St. Paul, Minnesota, 1946.

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Okay, great.

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You're local, that's great.

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Where did you go to school, graduate

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school, divinity school, college?

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School or college, I went to the College of

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St. Catherine, I graduated in 1968 with a

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double major in History and Elementary Education.

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I did my graduate work, which at the time was

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called a Master's in Catechetics and Liturgy,

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at the University of St. Thomas because

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St. Catherine's at that time didn't have a

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graduate program yet, and I graduated in '81.

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Yes.

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And then I did a lot of post graduate

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study, primarily in the areas of

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spirituality and feminist theology.

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Wonderful!

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That's great.

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I have a certificate in Holistic Health Studies

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from St. Catherine's, a certificate in Spiritual

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Direction from the Center for Spiritual Guidance,

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and a certificate in The Sacred Art of Living and Dying.

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Wow.

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That is really wonderful.

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Very whole and expansive, I love it!

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What kind of work or ministry were

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you doing at the time of Reimagining?

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That was in 1993, and at that time I was

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employed by the arch diocese of St. Paul,

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Minneapolis as the coordinator of formation

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for the permanent deacons of the arch diocese.

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Very interesting, you said that you did

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that for 11 years, is that right?

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Yes.

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And what work or ministry did you do after Reimagining?

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I have a feeling this may be a long list.

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(laughter)

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No, actually, after Reimagining, in 1994,

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the end of 1994, I was hired as the founding

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director of Wisdom Ways Center for Spirituality.

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Which at the time was a collaboration

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of the Sisters of St. Joseph

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and the College of St. Catherine.

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In 2004 it became solely a ministry of the sisters.

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Okay.

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And I was at Wisdom Ways for 13 years.

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That position actually started in March of '95

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and I was there until the spring of 2008

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when I shifted to the membership office

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of the Sisters of St. Joseph, and in

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the community, well we have several ways

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of affiliation, but Devout Sisters clearly,

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and then a form called Consociates or Associates,

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so since 2008 I've been a co-director of

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Consociate Services in the membership office here.

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Wonderful.

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That's great, thank you.

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Mary Kaye, how and when did you first

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become aware of feminist theology?

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Obviously you've pursued it,

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so I'm curious how this started.

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Well I've just been sorting out books lately,

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I'm starting The Great Sword which is very painful.

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(laughs) Oh I bet.

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And just coming upon these books that

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were so significant, I was just talking

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with a friend this weekend of when did

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it shift, when did the first light dawn?

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I think the very first little seed,

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when my children were small I had

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the privilege of making the choice

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to stay home for several years and

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I was very actively involved as

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a volunteer in our parish, I'd been

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an elementary school teacher and I

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became a catechist, and I was real

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involved in (mumbles) and all that stuff.

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I remember in some Lenten program,

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one of the sisters in parish was leading it.

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She was talking about "God", quote unquote,

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and she used the language ground of our being.

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It was the first time I'd ever heard

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a different word for God, and it wasn't

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specifically feminist, but it was

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like what is she saying, what does that mean?

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You mean there's some other way to think about that?

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That was, coming up through the 70s,

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so when the feminist movement was just

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starting and it was all new, and another

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interesting influence was I was married

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at the time and my spouse was teaching

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in a school where there was a woman

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who was a really strong feminist and

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he would come home with all these

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great ideas that she had said that

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day and I was like oh really?

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(laughter)

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When those started to take flesh on

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the home front, then it wasn't so.

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I mean the challenges started to become

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apparent, but I think it was a process

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of what was going on in the society

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and the culture, just with the

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whole feminist movement to start with

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and then feminist theology 'cause my own

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draw was always to theology and spirituality.

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And I started graduate school in '79.

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It was right in the middle of all of this, you know?

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Yes.

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And I look back and I think I likely

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would've been a theology major at St. Catherine's

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except in the 1960s there was no theology major offered.

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Wow.

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I almost had enough credits for a

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theology major, but that wasn't an option.

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I just look at those little shifts.

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Yes.

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We were right in the middle of it,

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just right in the middle of it.

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I was influenced a lot by books I read and people

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just, the light started to dawn, you know?

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Yes.

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I've said if I never read another book,

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and I don't mean this in a pejorative way,

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if I never read another book by a

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male theologian, I still would never

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be able to catch up with how one-sided it

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all was until the feminist movement broke through.

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In terms of authors, Elizabeth Johnson

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has had a tremendous influence on me.

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It's not a small point for me that

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she happens to be a Sister of St. Joseph,

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so I feel this spiritual connection with her.

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Of course.

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But them my work at Wisdom Ways was

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just pure grace because we had the

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privilege of bringing in so many

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fine feminist theologians and doing

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courses using feminist theology books.

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We had a project called the hedge role initiative

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which are semester long courses in feminist,

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mainly ecotheology, feminist ecotheology.

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Anyway, it's just gotten deeper and deeper

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and deeper, so being part of this community

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of the Sisters of St. Joseph also had

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a huge influence on me with the conversion

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to feminist theology, feminist ritual,

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feminist ways of thinking and being.

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So something going on in the church,

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in the world, in my own life, at home,

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at work, it was all just kinda...

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It all cohered.

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Right, right.

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Oh that's great, Mary Kaye.

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Well let's talk about the Reimagining community.

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I know you had several different roles.

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Actually, can we start with what

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led to your initial involvement?

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Well Madeline Sue Martin, Sue Seid-Martin,

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was a colleague at the St. Paul

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Seminary School of Divinity where I

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worked for 11 years, and I belonged to

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the corral that she directed, I had

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taken some courses with her, I was

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very smitten with her as a person and

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as a teacher, as a musician, as a leader.

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It was probably in about 1990 she said

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to me Mary Kaye, put these dates in your calendar.

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I said what dates and she said...

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Hold on, let me get this straight,

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November 4th to 7th, 1993.

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I said that's three years from now.

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She said you don't wanna miss this.

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It's called Reimagining, I said reimagining what?

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(laughter)

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She said wait and see.

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So I got it in my calendar three years

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ahead, had a little poster on the

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back of my drawer at the seminary,

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a little kind of radical, under the radar.

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I love it.

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That was where it first came onboard

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and then along the way she asked me to

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serve on the overall ritual planning group

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because she knew I loved ritual and I think

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she particularly was looking for some

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Catholic women to serve on the ritual

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planning group because that's in our DNA.

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Yes.

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That certainly was her strong suit,

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so that was part of it, and then I had

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done some liturgical movement,

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liturgical dance along the way,

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and she put out that word that they

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were gonna need 50 liturgical dancers

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and I thought well that'll be fun,

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so I signed up for that.

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It was a long time ago, Sherri.

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(laughter)

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Is it really 25 years?

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I know, can you believe it, it's just about.

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It was a long time ago.

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Yeah.

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Then they had a call for proposals and

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at the time, because I was working there,

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I could take one course free every semester,

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so I just kept picking up courses, graduate theology

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courses, and this was when Pastor Griefen lost.

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There was a Lutheran woman in the class,

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the teacher was Lutheran actually which was unusual,

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he was a chaplain down at Children's Hospital.

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Yes.

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And so much of my formation and education

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was very much shaped in the Catholic tradition.

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So I thought this would be interesting to

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have a slightly different perspective,

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and the woman's name was Sandy Garig.

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She was a lovely person and we would

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have after class conversations about

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different things and discovered we

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both had a great interest in Mary.

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Oh!

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So we had this little conversation

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and submitted a proposal that we

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would offer a workshop session at

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the Reimagining conference, Mary from

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Catholic and Lutheran feminist perspectives.

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That was very fun to prepare and to give.

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Those are the ways I was directly involved.

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Then besides being on the ritual planning group

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I think I was specifically involved

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in planning some of the rituals.

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I wanna hear about this, Mary Kaye,

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those are all important roles and the ritual was

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so crucial to Reimagining, it was so powerful.

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I would love to hear your memories about what it

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was like to be on that ritual planning committee.

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Well I remember just the enthusiasm of people.

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And the enormity of this task that

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we were undertaking, this whole conference.

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As I recall it now, I may have these numbers

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wrong, but this is how I often told the story.

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Yes.

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It was a global theological conference by women

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for women and men with 2,000 women and 87 men

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from I think every state in the union

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and 27 other countries or something

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like that, those numbers are all pretty close.

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They are, they are, every state except Nevada.

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Okay, every state except one.

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Yes.

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Just the thought of it was like is this

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possible, what is this gonna be, and it

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was so huge, and Sally and Sue

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were just, there was no stopping them.

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Yes.

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I knew them better than some of the

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other people in the planning process.

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Sally was always so funny.

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Was she?

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I loved Sally, yes.

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I wanna hear your memories about,

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those two women were absolutely crucial

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to this, so what were they like?

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Tell me about your memories of them.

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My memory of Sally was she was

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just so solid and so not in a...

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Self aggrandizing way at all.

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She was just sure of herself,

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she knew what was real for her.

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Yes.

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And she knew what was absolutely foolish.

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Yes.

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And I'd gotten to know her a little bit, I think

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she worked with the Council of Churches early on.

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When I was in parish work I think.

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Anyway, somewhere along the way we

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had some connections and I just liked her.

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Yes.

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And then through this Reimagining experience.

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She just, I loved how she looked,

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I loved how she sounded, we ran a program

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here for 15 years through St. Catherine's

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and then Wisdom Ways called Theological Insights.

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It was four Friday mornings in the fall and

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four in the spring, women doing theology,

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and whatever the topic was for that

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series or that day, the first woman

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would speak to it out of her own life experience,

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and then a second speaker that morning

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would be from a more theological

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or broader, scholarly perspective.

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I just remember that Sally was one

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of those hundreds of women over the

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years that for 15 years, eight sessions,

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16 speakers every year, it was a huge deal.

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I remember this funny story she told about the cracked pot.

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Oh tell me, tell me.

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(laughs) Well I don't remember all the details,

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but she was using it to make a point of

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some sort and this person was carrying

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a board across their shoulders and there

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was a pot hanging from each end of it,

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the person was going to get water every day.

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And noticed somewhere along the way,

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on the way back the flowers

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on one side were really growing.

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The flowers alongside the path,

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and the other side they weren't.

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She thought well what's happening here,

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well the one pot was cracked, it had

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a crack in it, so the water was dripping out,

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I'm watering the flowers and she said

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so there is a place in the world for crackpots.

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(laughter)

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Oh that's cute, that is great.

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It's just a little tiny story, but she was dear.

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And her funeral, like Suze, was such a...

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Experience of her life.

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It was so sad, but those women were just, they were giants.

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They were absolute giants.

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Yes, yes.

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So Sally was just, and when all this stuff

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blew up afterwards, it was like what, what, what?

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Yes.

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(laughs) How can this be?

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We're not stopping you know, we're going forward.

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What if such and such, or what

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if such and such, we're going forward.

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Okay, Sally.

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Sally was the one who was saying

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we're going forward, I love it.

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Sue Seid-Martin, or Madeline Sue, what was she like?

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I just love the expression on your face

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by the way, you're just grinning from ear to ear.

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(laughs) Sorry it's not a video at this point.

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I know, I feel that way too.

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What was she like, she was very creative.

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She was very deep, but not put-offish at all,

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like some people are really smart

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and you pull back, she wasn't like that

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at all, she was so gifted in the arts

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and music and corral music in particular.

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She created these reader's theater

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experiences at the St. Paul seminary

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working very closely with Carol Castigar

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who was the person at the seminary

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that taught the seminarians how to preside

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in terms of movement and gesture.

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Carol's background was in theater,

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and Madeline Sue in ritual and music.

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They loved those students, they loved the seminarians.

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It was a different time in the life of the church

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I have to say, also, than more recent years.

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But she was a very gifted musician and composer,

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she was very fun to sing with, she directed

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the corral or the (mumbles) for all those years.

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I loved singing for her and with her.

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She was an accompanist as well.

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Just her creativity.

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Then as a teacher, I took this really fun course

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one summer called music and movement as prayer.

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She created this little village called Mekea.

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So we entered, we left our shoes

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outside the door each day as we

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came to class and came in and sat on the

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floor and made a circle in the village of Mekea.

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She created this little song, it's M-E-K-E-A.

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She was so rooted in the liturgical year,

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those initials stood for M was for Maranatha,

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for Advent, Emmanuel for the Christmas season,

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K-E, Kyrie Eleison for the Lenten season,

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and then the final A for allelujah.

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Wow!

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It was a little acronym, so we

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became the villagers of Mekea,

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and she used that framework of

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the liturgical year for the course.

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Then different people would make

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whatever the topic was for each lesson,

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we would each bring an offering.

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It wasn't an assignment she would give us,

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it was an invitation to bring an offering.

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Whether it was a poem or a prayer or

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embodied prayer or whatever it was,

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so each student would come to

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the village every day with their

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offering to nurture the rest of us.

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She also was a great cook and she

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suffered from a chronic debilitating

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progressive illness that in the end did her in.

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Yes.

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So somewhere along the way she lost her own sense

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of taste, but she was an incredibly wonderful cook

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and so she would host little gatherings at her home,

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and it was all about the sacramentality of life,

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it was about the food and the bread

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and the wine and the oil and the touch.

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She just lived that.

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She lived it and she loved it and she taught it.

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It was beautiful.

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She also would go every year to this theological

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conference, Liturgical conference in Hawaii

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and bring back new ideas from that every year.

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When she died she was cremated and the priest,

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Father George, she had made arrangements

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with him long before he would preside

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at her funeral, but he was in Hawaii

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and so it took a while for him to come.

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I realize I'm skipping around a bit but--

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Not this is fine, yes, please.

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And so he was the prescider and he was barefoot.

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It was at St. William's Church in Fridley,

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he was barefoot and he had a crown

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of some kind of leaves on his head

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along with his proper Liturgical vestments.

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At the time of the gospel he danced the

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gospel book (mumbles) this was the prescider.

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Wow!

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Oh my goodness!

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She and he had worked very closely together.

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You said she had planned her funeral.

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Yes.

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And you said something about this was her final lesson.

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Well I said that of her and also of another

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colleague of mine, Sister Judith Stoneton who

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had been a Professor of Art History at St. Catherine's

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and she had asked me to be her liturgist

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for her funeral, she had cancer for a long time.

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With both of those women they were master teachers,

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and it was like this was their final offering.

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Yes.

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Their funeral, this was their

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final gift to their beloveds.

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I use that language because they were

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teachers, it was their final lesson.

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Some schools have professors give

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what they called a last lecture.

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Yes.

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If this was the last time you were ever

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gonna have a talk to tell everything

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that was important to you, what would you tell?

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Well for these women who lived, embodied prayer

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and ritual, this was their final lecture,

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this was their final lesson plan, this was

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their final class, the detail with which

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they planned those rituals and those liturgies.

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So it was so right that Madeline Sue did that.

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Another thing that was very dear was

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she was brilliant and she had a large library,

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but toward the end she moved in with her daughter,

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she had to sort out a lot of things,

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a lot of things, a lot of things,

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but there was a certain set of books

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that were her most precious ones

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that she kept until the very end.

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She directed her daughter that,

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at her death, that last collection

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of books should go to Wisdom Ways

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with the Sisters of St. Joseph.

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So that, for these years now, has been

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in the Wisdom Ways library under the

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Madeline Sue Henderson Seid-Martin...

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(laughter)

20:48

Ritual and Liturgy Collection.

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A lot of books are about women's ritual, feminist ritual.

20:52

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Yes.

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Because it was all new.

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Yes, yes.

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But so you learn the principles of it

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and then her thing was you don't go to

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a book and find a ritual for what

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you need, you create it then, but you

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have this background of what all that involves,

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and so just the way, again, I wanna say

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that example of her having the students

21:12

bring an offering, that was so her.

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She was happy, she made it fun.

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It wasn't heavy and hard.

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Yeah.

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It was beautiful.

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It is beautiful and inspiring, what an aspiring woman.

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Right.

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What was it like to be planning those

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rituals, creating those rituals for Reimagining?

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Well I just have to say creating, it was creative.

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It was so creative.

21:41

For those of us who are Catholic, I'll just

21:44

say again, it's kinda in our bones and

21:46

that'll come across when you interview Susan.

21:49

-

Yes.

21:51

-

Later in the week 'cause it's really in her

21:52

bones, it's in every cell of that woman's being.

21:53

But it's just how we think, it's how we pray.

21:58

-

What was the process like?

22:01

Were you just throwing out ideas?

22:03

-

We had different, we were divided

22:06

up into different groups to do

22:09

the different rituals, (mumbles) here.

22:10

Okay, ritual environment, there was the

22:19

Ritual Vision Keeping Committee, Sue chaired that.

22:22

Several people on that list, again, were Catholic.

22:29

-

It's called Ritual Vision Keeping?

22:34

-

Ritual Vision Keeping Committee.

22:36

-

So what did that mean?

22:38

-

It was keeping the overall vision of

22:40

where this ritual component was going to take us,

22:42

where it was gonna start, what was the arch of it.

22:45

-

Yes.

22:47

-

What were gonna be the pieces of it, and I

22:48

keep saying that part about the Catholics

22:50

were involved there because in some other

22:52

really important significant aspects

22:54

there's no Catholic presence at all.

22:56

-

Yes.

22:58

-

Whatever that was about, I don't know.

22:59

-

Right.

23:00

-

But ritual, I suppose because Sue was

23:01

part of the overall planning group, and that

23:04

was her strong suit, so the vision keeping.

23:06

As the different suggestions would come up

23:10

or the plans for particular rituals,

23:12

does it fit within the whole, where in the arc

23:15

does it belong, so that kind of thing like that.

23:17

Then there was a whole group on ritual environment,

23:20

making the space beautiful and appropriate.

23:23

-

Wow.

23:27

-

Rituals for Friday and Saturday,

23:28

that's the particular one that I served on.

23:30

Ritual music was a whole huge one.

23:33

Again, many Catholics I found were

23:36

designing that music, and ritual

23:38

movement to the liturgical dance piece.

23:41

Ritual texts, so people who were

23:45

working in these little subgroups.

23:49

-

And the vision keeping kept it all as

23:53

one piece, so it didn't become fragmented.

23:56

-

Right, and there were 50, I'd say 55 dancers,

23:58

I must've counted these to meet with you the other day.

24:02

(laughter)

24:04

55 dancers and 55 singers.

24:05

-

That's amazing, that is.

24:07

You were on that, planning the

24:10

ritual for Friday and Saturday.

24:11

-

Yes.

24:13

-

Yes, and what was that?

24:14

-

Well let me see.

24:16

(laughter)

24:17

It was a long time ago.

24:18

-

It sure was, absolutely, absolutely.

24:20

-

Ritual every Sunday.

24:26

You know, just at the beginning here.

24:43

(mumbles) ritual of the spirit of Reimagining.

24:46

This is at the beginning of the

24:51

book with all the rituals in it.

24:52

Gathering people is an ancient act.

24:54

Tad Guzie was a theologian, a liturgical

24:59

theologian that did a lot of writing

25:01

about this kind of stuff, and he,

25:03

I remember him saying it's really very

25:04

simple, there's just three things, gather the

25:06

folks, tell the stories, share the bread and wine.

25:08

Gather the folks, tell the story, share the food.

25:13

That's the heart of what ritual is,

25:16

so written here, gathering people is an ancient act.

25:18

The care and mindfulness with which we

25:22

gather this evening is in itself a reimagining

25:24

of community and an encountering of the divine.

25:27

We linger here as gathering moments

25:31

invite us to become a people together.

25:34

So it started on a Thursday evening.

25:39

As I look at the plan for that night,

25:44

started with an opening celebration,

25:47

a gathering ritual, a Minnesota

25:49

harvest feast, appropriate food of course.

25:51

-

Of course.

25:54

-

Talking circle, and then the

25:55

wonderful presentations and religious

25:56

imagination with Mary Bednarowski

25:59

and (mumbles) and Bernice Johnson-Regan.

26:01

Whoa, that was just the start!

26:04

-

(laughs) I know.

26:06

-

Then we had a chance to talk about

26:07

that again and then there was what

26:08

was called a holy play ritual.

26:09

That was the Thursday night.

26:12

It's just fun to look back over these again.

26:18

-

Isn't it though?

26:20

Yes.

26:21

And it's fun to listen to it again

26:23

now that we're getting it digitized.

26:24

-

Yes, I'm sure.

26:26

Okay, Friday morning.

26:35

Reimagining God.

26:39

Saturday was Reimagining Community.

26:42

So Friday Reimagining God, morning ritual,

26:45

let me just see what these were.

26:49

Oh, then that night was that play Simple Gifts.

26:55

-

Yes.

26:58

-

And the Sweet Honey in the Rock.

26:58

-

Yes.

27:00

-

Concert.

27:01

So because I was working on Friday and

27:02

Saturday, just let me see what we did here.

27:04

(laughter)

27:05

Friday morning ritual, Reimagining God.

27:07

An opening chant.

27:10

♪ Gathered here in the mystery of this hour ♪

27:13

♪ Gathered here, in one strong body ♪

27:17

♪ Da da da ♪

27:21

-

Gathered here in the struggle

27:23

and the power of spirit draw near.

27:24

Then there was an anointing with a red dot

27:26

and that beautiful song Breaths by Bernice Reagon.

27:29

Where God is everywhere and everything.

27:33

And then people, very feminist principles,

27:40

start with our own experience, so the question,

27:42

if we're gonna reimagine God, who is your God?

27:44

What does your God taste like, look like, sound like?

27:47

Name God, tell each other at the table.

27:50

Come people of the, Ruth (mumbles) her work,

28:00

she was an early feminist text writer for a lot

28:03

of these songs, her name kept showing up a lot.

28:05

-

Yeah.

28:08

-

But again, it's starting in people's own experience.

28:09

That same song was used the next morning

28:13

for Saturday morning gathered here in

28:15

the mystery of this hour, it's around.

28:16

Do you know this song?

28:19

-

I do, I remember it, it's beautiful.

28:20

-

Gathered here in one strong body,

28:22

gathered here in the struggle

28:24

and the power, our spirit draw near.

28:25

So it was creating things that set the stage, that got

28:38

us out of our left brain and into our right brain.

28:42

Kinda like a sponge.

28:48

Getting it damp so it can soak up the rest

28:52

of the water, that was the reason for it.

28:55

-

You know, two of the things that

28:59

attracted a lot of attention, mostly negative

29:01

unfortunately, was the language of Sophia and

29:03

also the milk and honey ritual, and I don't know

29:07

if you have any memories of either one of those.

29:09

-

Oh my, yes.

29:11

(laughter)

29:12

-

What do you recall about that?

29:14

-

That we find milk and honey.

29:16

-

Yes.

29:18

-

I presume you can delete these long...

29:21

-

Yeah, that won't be a problem, no problem.

29:23

This is good.

29:26

Unfortunately I don't remember which day it was.

29:29

-

I think it was an evening.

29:35

Sunday.

29:41

-

Okay, okay, so you weren't directly

29:42

involved in planning that one then.

29:44

-

No, just in the dancing.

29:46

-

Yes.

29:47

-

We had to have a sense, the dancers

29:49

had to have a sense of the entire

29:51

ritual component because we were

29:52

involved in several different things

29:54

and there was that opening where

29:56

we brought in those big trays of

29:57

breads from all different cultures

29:59

and different parts of the world.

30:01

That was beautiful, in fact just

30:03

a few weeks ago somebody said do you have

30:05

that ritual about the different kinds of breads?

30:06

She volunteers at Peace House which

30:09

is a hospitality drop-in place in Minneapolis

30:12

and it was for Holy Thursday, she was

30:15

creating a little ritual for the evening dinner.

30:17

-

So she had been to Reimagining and remembered it?

30:19

-

Right, right.

30:21

-

Wow.

-

I said yes, I have the book.

30:22

-

How wonderful.

30:24

It's nice to know it lives on.

30:27

-

Yes.

30:29

I'm sorry, what were the two things--

30:32

-

Oh, Sophia.

30:34

-

Sophia.

30:35

-

Sophia language and then the milk and honey.

30:36

-

It was such a shock when the backlash

30:43

blew up around Sophia because for so many

30:46

of us that was so life-giving, so powerful,

30:49

so creative, so imaginative, so holy.

30:55

-

Yes.

31:00

-

And then to have that be grabbed.

31:02

I still think a lot of the blowup

31:06

around that backlash thing was

31:10

related to that newspaper article

31:11

in the Star Tribune that came out a

31:14

day or two before the conference started.

31:16

Madeline Sue had been interviewed.

31:20

Because she was such a trusting person,

31:26

shared with the interviewer some of

31:28

the text from the ritual with the

31:32

understanding that they absolutely

31:34

would not be printed, but she was

31:35

trying to give her the context,

31:37

some of the background for it.

31:39

The woman did not understand what she was

31:42

trying to do, and the problem was more

31:44

with the title of the article as I recall.

31:46

-

Yes.

31:48

-

And with some of the content.

31:48

-

It called it Goddess Worship, that was the headline right?

31:50

-

Yup, that was enough to send

31:52

smoke out of some people's ears.

31:55

-

Yes.

31:57

-

It was a cruel thing to do when

31:59

she promised not to do it, and Madeline Sue

32:02

was just devastated because this

32:04

holy creation that so many people

32:08

had worked so long to bring into being,

32:11

which hadn't even happened yet, was blasphemed

32:14

and disrespected, and she was just crushed.

32:18

She was absolutely crushed.

32:24

The other thing that was very hard for her,

32:26

I think it was the opening night, it was

32:29

a very long, involved ritual component

32:30

that wove in and out the whole evening.

32:33

It simply was more than could possibly

32:36

fit in the time that was allotted.

32:38

Some of the parts went longer, some of

32:40

the speakers went a little bit longer,

32:41

the breaks took a little bit longer,

32:43

people were so excited they wanted to

32:45

keep talking, so some of it had to be cut.

32:47

She was just in tears because she worked,

32:51

I mean so many people had worked so hard,

32:54

no we can't cut that part, people are leaving.

32:56

It's 10 o'clock, we have to stop, you know?

33:00

-

Right, yes, yes.

33:02

-

So that was hard, but except for those two things

33:04

which were major, especially the backlash.

33:07

-

Before we go to the backlash I did

33:13

wanna ask, you were a dancer, you led

33:15

a workshop, what do you remember about those

33:17

experiences, what was it like to be at that

33:20

conference after you'd worked on it all those years?

33:23

-

It was, well it became real, you know?

33:26

It was a concept that then took on

33:30

flesh and blood and became real and

33:32

the excitement, the enthusiasm of

33:34

all the 2,000 people, these speakers

33:36

from all around the world, ecumenical,

33:39

it just blew open so many things,

33:41

it was so exciting, it was so positive.

33:43

-

What was it like being a dancer?

33:48

-

Well I used to love to do that.

33:50

It was just a joy, really, to embody,

33:58

I used to do that a fair amount

34:04

here in the Sisters of St. Joseph

34:06

community as well at different rituals.

34:08

Oftentimes it was leading movement,

34:12

not just a person dancing, it's a prayer,

34:14

it's a form of present body prayer and the

34:17

point is to lead people, or someone said

34:19

it's the motion of the dancer evokes

34:23

the emotion of the assembly and in

34:28

the coming together the prayer happens.

34:32

-

Oh yes.

34:34

-

So...

34:36

It was a lot of time, it was a lot

34:40

of work, a lot of rehearsals, there were

34:42

three people that coordinated that

34:43

liturgical dance piece, and they,

34:45

one in particular you didn't wanna

34:47

mess up, (mumbles) wanna do it right.

34:49

(laughter)

34:52

So we rehearsed over and over and over again.

34:53

-

Wow.

34:55

-

Some people had a fair amount of

34:56

experience with liturgical dance.

34:57

Some people, to be perfectly honest,

35:00

hadn't signed up early enough for

35:01

the conference and they had to

35:03

close it at 2,000 'cause there

35:04

was no more space, but if you

35:05

were a dancer you could get into

35:07

the parts when the dancers were gonna be there,

35:09

so some people signed up to be dancers

35:12

because that was their way in.

35:14

-

Yes.

35:16

Must've made it challenging.

35:18

-

It was a lot of fun.

35:20

-

Good, good.

35:21

-

And I remember the part, the evening...

35:23

I think it was the milk and honey ritual, I think

35:27

it was after that, I can't remember exactly.

35:29

I was on the far end of the room

35:32

and Madeline Sue was over on the

35:33

other far end, and after that ritual

35:35

was over, I was just ecstatic and

35:37

I went leaping across the room.

35:42

Not walking, not running, not skipping,

35:45

leaping to Madeline Sue and just gave

35:48

her a big hug and said we've been

35:51

waiting for this for thousands of years.

35:54

That's how it felt, just this bursting

35:59

open of what had been crushed in and

36:01

held tight and not allowed expression.

36:04

For thousands of years.

36:08

-

Yes.

36:10

-

And along the way, Sherri, I, and I

36:12

don't remember when this all started,

36:14

but I've done a fair amount of reading

36:16

and a lot of thinking about the whole

36:18

witch burning phenomenon and the

36:20

women who were blamed for the plague

36:25

and whatever was going wrong.

36:28

I've read some very inflated figures, I've read

36:34

a really fine book by Anne Llewellyn Barstow.

36:37

-

I like that book too.

36:40

-

I like it very much.

36:41

Her best guess, and she's done

36:43

the homework, there's documented

36:45

evidence, now never mind, there probably

36:48

were million, there probably were,

36:50

but there's documented evidence for 100,000

36:52

cases of whom at least 85% were women.

36:55

We're talking 85,000.

36:59

Think of one woman, think of 10.

37:03

Think of 100 women lined up.

37:06

Think of 1,000 women.

37:10

My brain can't even go there.

37:12

Sometimes I think of the O'Shaughnessy Auditorium

37:14

and think how many people does that seat.

37:16

Okay, that's that many.

37:18

Think of 85,000 women.

37:20

It just, it happened in the part of

37:25

Germany, where my own ancestors come from,

37:27

was an area that was very very...

37:29

There were a lot of witch burnings

37:35

in that area and I just think it's

37:37

something that's in the communal memory.

37:40

The subconscious memory of women

37:46

of northern European descent.

37:48

It's a very big thing, it's a very big thing.

37:52

Anyway, it's just this subtext that

37:55

flows under there, so to think of

37:57

all the things that women were punished for.

37:59

-

So how would you relate that to Reimagining?

38:04

-

That was the breaking out of the, I think

38:06

we internalized all that fear and kept still.

38:10

Our women who have the gift of being seers,

38:15

S-E-E-R, who don't talk about it because it's

38:17

not, even still people look at you really

38:21

weird or they go hmmm, (mumbles) or worse.

38:24

And acknowledgment of the grace of all of that

38:32

and coming to meet the fear and all

38:35

the negativity and terror that was

38:40

involved with that, this was a breaking open,

38:44

no this is real, this is good, this is holy.

38:47

-

Yes.

38:51

-

And the milk and honey, those words were so strong.

38:53

We are holy, yes we too are holy, our bodies are holy.

38:58

And in my own tradition where okay,

39:04

women aren't allowed near the altar,

39:06

especially if they're menstruating,

39:07

or women especially aren't allowed,

39:09

I mean in terms of organization, officially,

39:11

we're not going there, or I remember when

39:14

in our own parish the first time

39:17

we had girl altar servers, I cried

39:19

because it touched something at some

39:23

really deep level way deeper than

39:25

my intellect and I'd helped prepare

39:27

those girls to do that, it was Advent,

39:29

they weren't altar servers at Eucharist,

39:31

it was for Advent vespers, and these two,

39:33

they were probably 5th grade girls

39:36

and they were really practiced well

39:37

and they were gonna do it right and

39:39

they were standing over there ready

39:41

to come in the entryway, it was a

39:43

beautiful church, it was at St. Luke's

39:45

here in St. Paul, and they were

39:47

each carrying a candle and I saw

39:49

that candlelight glinting off that

39:52

one girl's long hair, and those girls

39:54

were wearing albs and I'd never

39:57

seen a female person with an alb.

39:59

-

Yes.

40:01

I had never seen candlelight glinting off long hair.

40:02

I just cried.

40:06

-

Yes.

40:07

-

So Reimagining was a reclaiming and

40:09

an honoring of all of that, of women's

40:11

experience of the holy, and if we

40:15

call her Sophia or we call her

40:17

whatever we call her, if that's what's

40:19

real for us, then that's what's real for us.

40:21

The milk and honey, I have a lovely picture

40:26

someone took of me (chuckles) holding up

40:28

the little pitcher of honey and the

40:31

pitcher of milk and my face is like...

40:33

(laughter)

40:37

-

Just radiant I bet.

40:40

-

Radiant, absolutely radiant.

40:41

-

That's how it looks now, by the way.

40:43

(laughs) As you're recapturing that moment.

40:45

-

Okay, well it was all such a conversion

40:47

experience, the whole feminist movement,

40:49

the whole feminist theology, the whole

40:51

feminist spirituality, it was all

40:53

a really huge conversion, so now my

40:55

bookshelf hardly has any classic male

40:58

theologian resources, I mean they did,

41:01

they were who they were and they wrote

41:05

out of their own context and their

41:07

own life experience, but so did all these

41:08

people, these human beings, these women.

41:11

-

Yes.

41:13

-

So big chunks of stuff on Hildegard

41:14

and women of the Middle Ages, (mumbles),

41:16

and the history of women in Christianity,

41:20

and Mariology, from a feminist perspective, is my thing.

41:22

That is my thing.

41:25

-

How was that workshop you did at Reimagining?

41:27

-

Well that was fun.

41:30

Those were only an hour long, so you

41:32

take a big pot of stuff and distill

41:34

it down into a half pint, but the

41:36

description was Mary and Appreciative Inquiry.

41:38

This workshop will offer participants an

41:43

opportunity to reflect on their own

41:45

experience of Mary, 'cause that's always

41:46

where we start is with our own experience,

41:48

and explore the implications for women and the world.

41:50

With special focus on Eastern Europe and Latin America.

41:54

-

Oh interesting.

41:59

-

I had had the privilege of an ecumenical, actually it

42:01

was an interfaith pilgrimage to Eastern Europe.

42:08

Jewish, Protestant, and Catholic

42:11

women, a few years before this.

42:13

It was profound and it focused on

42:17

the Holocaust and on the role of

42:19

women in the churches of Eastern Europe

42:22

before and after the fall of Communism.

42:24

-

Wow.

42:26

-

And then I'd had also earlier than

42:27

that the opportunity to go to Central America

42:29

with Oxford Center for Global Education.

42:31

-

Yes.

42:34

-

It was about 22 people, we were all in church

42:35

ministry of some sort, I think it was ecumenical.

42:37

We went to El Salvador and Nicaragua

42:42

and that was just a profound experience.

42:45

-

Yes.

42:49

-

Anyway, so we were drawing on some of that

42:50

and Sandy had done some traveling too.

42:52

It just said that I was Catholic with

42:54

at that time 13 years of professional ministry

42:56

experience at Parish and arch diesis levels.

42:58

Special interests of women, spirituality,

43:01

and the integration of spirituality and sexuality.

43:03

Sandy Garig, Lutheran, public elementary

43:06

school teacher, is enrolled in the same

43:08

post -eminary school divinity master's

43:10

program in pastoral studies, and we had

43:12

just met in this class and started

43:15

talking about Mary and said we could

43:17

lead a conversation about Mary.

43:19

(chuckles)

43:21

-

I love it.

43:23

-

So that was fun.

43:24

I've done a lot of work over the years, since about

43:25

1981 or '82, research and presenting and teaching.

43:29

The reactions have been funny because it's

43:39

Mary from a feminist perspective,

43:41

so people are either, I was either

43:43

accused of being, by the more radical

43:45

feminists I was accused of being

43:50

a far right-wing conservative whatever

43:52

that I had any interest in Mary at all.

43:56

Then by the other side, being a

43:59

far left-wing radical feminist

44:01

(laughter)

weirdo because I was trying to

44:05

look at Mary from a feminist perspective.

44:07

Really it's been a labor of love and

44:10

lots and lots and lots of work and

44:15

pilgrimages and research and reading.

44:18

I had this idea of with a big

44:21

bouya pot and I would take it

44:22

around to these different clubs

44:24

and everybody would draw something from it

44:26

buteverybody would add in their

44:27

own ingredients and their own

44:29

questions and their own insight, so it just

44:30

kept getting more and more delicious as I...

44:31

-

What a great image.

44:34

-

Made it around, it was wonderful.

44:35

Then Elizabeth Johnson's wonderful book

44:37

Truly Our Sister came out, so now I end

44:39

most of those kinds of presentations

44:44

by holding up her book and saying save

44:46

yourself 25 years of work, go buy this book.

44:48

(laughter)

44:50

-

That's a great endorsement.

44:53

(laughter)

44:55

You were talking earlier about you were

44:58

surprised, it sounded like, at the backlash.

45:00

-

Yeah, well yes and no.

45:03

-

Say some more about that.

45:05

-

Well the fact that I used a pseudonym

45:13

when Mary Bednarowski interviewed me

45:16

for her book The Religious Imagination of

45:18

American Women, is because I was afraid of losing my job.

45:20

-

Yes.

45:24

-

If my name was attached to what I was saying.

45:25

-

Right, right.

45:27

-

And what I was reflecting on in

45:29

that particular passage was just simply

45:31

my own experience which is true.

45:33

-

Right.

45:35

-

But I worked for the church long enough to not be stupid.

45:37

And while it was a time in the church when

45:45

the Spirit of Vatican II was alive and well

45:48

and people were encouraged to use their

45:51

brains and not leave them outside the door.

45:53

That kind of thing, it was still,

45:56

I was in an institutional role.

45:58

And I was preparing people for ordained ministry.

46:02

-

Yes.

46:05

-

So I felt like I had certain

46:06

parameters beyond which I would

46:08

not be wise to venture publicly.

46:10

-

Right, exactly, yes, yeah.

46:14

You had said that Sophia, that it

46:17

was hard to have that be criticized

46:20

because she was so life-giving, did you

46:23

anticipate that that was gonna happen?

46:25

-

No.

46:27

-

Yeah.

46:28

-

Not to the degree that it happened.

46:30

-

Yeah, yeah.

46:32

-

In that people lost their jobs, wow.

46:33

-

Yeah.

46:35

-

And that seemingly, in some of

46:36

those cases, there was no interest

46:38

in having a conversation, or what's

46:41

meant by that, or what are different

46:44

ways of understanding that, or when

46:46

you decided to use that term were you

46:47

aware that it could've been misinterpreted?

46:49

Those kinds of possibly constructive critique.

46:51

There was none of that, there was just

46:56

this slam bang, come down, wow, wow.

46:57

So anti-feminist methodology.

47:02

-

Right, and charges of heresy and

47:04

goddess worship and all of that, yeah.

47:06

-

So then it stirred up all those ancient fears.

47:09

Like go back in your cave, you know.

47:12

That's when the Reimagining community

47:15

said no, we're not going back in the cave.

47:17

It was so, 'cause the saying was it

47:20

was the conference that became a community.

47:22

-

Yes.

47:24

-

Because we wouldn't go back in the cave,

47:25

we were out of the cave, we didn't wanna go back.

47:26

-

So were you involved in those conversations?

47:29

-

In which conversations?

47:32

-

Oh I'm sorry, the ones about forming the community.

47:33

-

Not really, I was very, I was going

47:34

through a job transition around this time,

47:37

in '94 is when I came to Wisdom Ways.

47:40

I was so free to do, to dream, and the

47:44

program planning groups that we had,

47:49

we could just, and so I appreciated

47:52

what Reimagining community was doing.

47:56

The first conference was very

47:59

significant for me personally,

48:01

very transformational, celebratory.

48:03

But I didn't, I wasn't particularly

48:09

involved in the later developments

48:10

'cause I was very involved in helping

48:12

create another, not antithetical

48:14

in any way, but it was just a different setting

48:17

and a different, I had a different role, I was

48:19

in a different position where there was

48:22

lots of room to explore these questions.

48:25

Wisdom Ways, always from the beginning was

48:29

for all spiritual seekers, women and men.

48:31

It wasn't ever intended to be...

48:34

Confined to Catholic or women only

48:39

or something, that was never its intent,

48:41

so it too was a way to celebrate a lot

48:43

of what Reimagining community was

48:46

also celebrating at the same time.

48:48

-

Absolutely.

48:50

You said it was significant to you, obviously it

48:52

was, what would you say in the end

48:53

was most significant to you and why?

48:55

-

From the whole...

48:57

-

From Reimagining, all of it.

48:58

-

I think in awareness that the global

49:05

nature of, in this case feminist Christian,

49:07

spirituality and theology was not going to die.

49:13

It's here to stay, the cat is out

49:18

of the bag, it's not going anywhere.

49:21

-

Yeah.

49:24

-

The brilliance of those women, at the same time

49:26

this incredible sadness that it took this long.

49:29

Like in my own tradition, it wasn't until,

49:35

I think it was the 1940s that, the 1940s,

49:37

when I was born, that women were allowed

49:41

to do graduate, it makes me cry

49:44

still, graduate theological study,

49:46

think of all that was lost to us.

49:49

I mean there are these brilliant women,

49:52

these few that we have their works,

49:54

but think of what we would've had.

49:57

-

Exactly.

50:00

-

It's impossible.

-

Just a few weeks ago Margaret Brennan died,

50:02

she was an IHM sister, she'd been a

50:04

former president of the leadership

50:06

conference of Women Religious, she was

50:09

one of the very first women to go

50:14

through the program at St. Mary's Notre Dame

50:15

that Sister Madeline Wolf started to

50:18

enable women to do graduate theological

50:21

study, Margaret was one of the very first.

50:23

When she came into leadership in her

50:25

own community, she determined that a

50:26

certain percent of their sisters

50:28

would go on for graduate theological

50:30

degrees because it was so important.

50:32

She was here, at St. Catherine's,

50:36

about 10 years ago to do a sabbatical semester.

50:38

I think she actually had retired from

50:45

that time from her university in Toronto,

50:46

but getting to know her was pure grace.

50:49

I mean I knew a little bit about

50:53

her reputation, but now that she's dead

50:55

and I've been reading all these articles

50:57

it's like, and we actually formed

50:59

a lovely friendship, but there was

51:01

so much about her that I didn't know

51:03

and because she was so self-effacing,

51:05

you never would know, so she played

51:07

a huge huge role for women, not just in

51:09

the United States, around a lot of those issues.

51:12

So it was Margaret, and people like her,

51:15

that started breaking down doors,

51:17

and that would've been the 1940s, 50s,

51:20

and you just think what all has

51:24

happened in the church and so forth,

51:25

but Reimagining then brought together

51:27

in an ecumenical setting, so some

51:29

of this work was going on in the

51:31

United Methodist Church or among the

51:33

Lutherans or among whatever they all were.

51:35

One of the blessings for me of working

51:39

with Wisdom Ways for those years was

51:41

the ecumenical nature of the work,

51:43

and some interfaith work as well.

51:44

But the partnering we did, ecumenically,

51:46

for different programs and conferences

51:49

and things, and Reimagining was like

51:51

wow, top notch, global, bring it all together.

51:55

I thought about that because Elizabeth Johnson's

52:00

new book is coming out in June and it's

52:02

Jesus Christ in the Global Voices of Women.

52:05

So it's ecumenical, feminist, global.

52:08

So women from all different...

52:11

Christian traditions.

52:17

I guess that was one of the key things too

52:18

was that it wasn't necessary to abandon,

52:20

well some feminists have found it

52:25

necessary to leave the tradition,

52:27

but Elizabeth Johnson and many others

52:29

in Reimagining were so strong,

52:31

we stood our ground as Christian feminists.

52:33

-

Yes.

52:38

-

Or what Joan Chittister used to call gospel feminism.

52:39

She says the reason I'm able to be a

52:42

feminist is because I'm Catholic.

52:44

Broadly understood, and Reimagining

52:47

brought together all these women

52:50

from these different Christian denominations.

52:53

We found we were sisters across denominational

52:56

lines, we were sisters in our feminism.

52:59

-

Yes.

53:01

-

We still could hold our denominational identity

53:02

and honor that, and the richness of all that.

53:04

All those women, those speakers, and not

53:09

just to read their words or see a video

53:12

of them or something, to experience them in

53:17

the flesh, in their strength and their beauty,

53:19

and to have the conversations that happened,

53:22

and the table talk, and then the whole thing

53:24

was so holistic that Nancy Chin's art, and we

53:26

were drawing on the tablecloths and dancing

53:28

and sharing meals together, and then they

53:32

had us at the same small group for

53:34

the entire conference, so I got

53:36

to know those people, at our table

53:38

was a woman from The Netherlands, and someone

53:40

else who was at Union at the time.

53:43

And just people that I would've

53:47

never had an opportunity to know.

53:48

-

Yes.

53:50

-

Yes, I think the ecumenical nature of it,

53:54

the global nature of it, that we didn't have to

53:56

abandon our Christian tradition to be feminist.

53:58

(clears throat)

54:02

-

Yes, yes.

54:03

And since you were involved in the liturgy,

54:05

how would you say the feminist theology

54:07

influenced the development of the liturgy,

54:09

the whole Reimagining experience?

54:12

-

Well one of those principles about,

54:21

we start with our own experience, and a

54:24

very specific particular impact I think

54:27

was the fact that the night Mary Bednarowski

54:33

did the opening keynote and invited us to take

54:36

the vow of persistence, which I'll never forget.

54:39

Mary is a small woman physically, and she's

54:43

standing in the center of this extremely

54:45

large room with 2,000 people, I mean just the

54:47

logistics of it Sherri, I can't believe it.

54:50

It was enormous.

54:54

Mentally, theologically, physically, it was 2,000

54:57

people, that's big and then you're trying to

55:00

create this intimate experience of community.

55:02

-

Yes, that's right.

55:04

-

With Mary standing in the middle of those

55:06

2,000 people all at tables of course.

55:07

That was the other thing, everybody was at round tables.

55:10

We could fit more people if we sat in

55:13

straight rows, no we're not sitting in

55:14

straight rows, we're gonna sit at round tables.

55:16

(clears throat)

55:18

But she had that plexiglass...

55:21

-

Podium?

55:23

-

Podium that she moved every so often.

55:24

I don't know if she had a beeper on her watch or what.

55:27

(laughter)

55:29

Every so often she would pick it up and turn

55:30

to face another, because there was no front or back.

55:32

Nobody was at the front or the back.

55:36

Everybody was in the circle.

55:38

(clears throat) So just in the way that the

55:40

space was aligned was very feminist, so that's

55:42

part of the embodiment again, where were our

55:45

bodies sitting in relationship to each other and

55:47

how she kept lifting that thing up and turning it.

55:51

Then the musicians were surrounding also on the

55:56

four sides, so whoever was, was it Donna Casper?

56:00

Who was in charge of the...

56:04

Music, let me just check this 'cause

56:08

that was a significant thing.

56:10

-

It was.

56:13

-

It was powerful.

56:15

Okay, I knew it, Donna Casper.

56:18

-

Oh good job, yes.

56:20

-

Shared the ritual music piece.

56:21

-

Wow.

56:24

-

Okay, and then the conductors.

56:26

Okay, this is interesting.

56:28

For the singers there were one, two,

56:30

three, four, five conductors and four keyboards.

56:32

In my memory they were on all four sides,

56:38

there wasn't like the choir is up there.

56:40

The choir was on four sides and

56:43

the keyboards were on four sides.

56:45

Now whoever kept it all going, I don't know.

56:47

-

I know.

56:50

-

It was a miracle that it worked (laughs).

56:51

-

It is!

56:53

-

So it was this awe, it was the awe.

56:55

That's the feminist modality is everyone's

56:59

perspective is valid, everyone's perspective

57:05

is worthwhile, needs to be honored.

57:08

And then the insights that come, that people

57:15

chew on them back and forth and don't

57:17

always agree, that's okay, it's not about that.

57:19

Just making space for newness,

57:23

new ways of thinking and being.

57:25

And the happiness of it all and

57:29

the whole mystic nature of it all.

57:31

The food was good and...

57:34

Then the play, The Simple Gifts, the beautiful play,

57:38

or the Sweet Honey in the Rock concert.

57:41

That was one of Madeline Sue's things

57:47

when she first told me about it.

57:48

It's happening three years from now in 1993

57:50

and Sweet Honey in the Rock is gonna be there.

57:52

(laughter)

57:54

-

You don't need anymore incentive than that, do you?

57:57

-

No.

57:59

-

Wow!

57:59

-

She said you better plan ahead.

58:00

-

Yes, well jumping ahead 'till now, and you're

58:01

looking back, like you said it's been

58:05

almost 25 years, what do you think is

58:06

the legacy of the Reimagining community?

58:09

Reimagining experience?

58:14

-

I think both the experience itself

58:30

and then the reaction to the backlash.

58:32

-

Say some more about that, that's interesting.

58:38

-

Okay, so when you asked the question

58:40

what is the legacy of the Reimagining experience,

58:42

I think not only about the conference itself,

58:46

because I would answer that one way was

58:49

the legacy of the conference, but there was

58:52

also a legacy related to the backlash,

58:54

and I alluded to this a little bit earlier.

58:58

-

Yes.

59:00

-

I think we found each other somehow in this experience

59:01

as sisters, across denominational lines.

59:05

A community was created, yes an actual

59:11

Reimagining community emerged, it was

59:14

the conference that became the community.

59:16

The beautiful songbook that was produced and the

59:18

different materials that came later as resources.

59:21

I suspect that for some women who were there

59:26

it was all new to them maybe or relatively new.

59:28

For me, I was pretty far along the

59:33

feminist path before the conference happened,

59:35

but it was this celebration of sisterhood,

59:38

again I wanna say that across denominational

59:41

Christian minds, that created connections

59:44

that I think are still, people are

59:47

still being nurtured by that.

59:50

So a legacy, well then they talk

59:56

the different waves of feminism, and younger

59:59

women who have no clue what this was like.

1:00:01

At St. Thomas they still host I think

1:00:08

every year the Luann Dummer Women's

1:00:10

Center hosts a lecture?

1:00:12

-

Yes they do.

Yes they do, yes.

1:00:13

-

Some years ago now, it was the woman,

1:00:15

she was a mystery writer, and she had a pseudonym.

1:00:17

-

Yes, and I can't think of her name.

1:00:22

-

Can't think of either name now unfortunately.

1:00:24

Carolyn.

1:00:27

-

Halpern, was that the one?

1:00:28

-

Yes, Carolyn Halpern.

1:00:30

-

Yes.

1:00:31

-

Okay, so some friends and I went to hear her.

1:00:31

My two friends that I was with are

1:00:34

great readers of mysteries, so they

1:00:36

wanted to go hear here because she

1:00:37

was a mystery writer, and I wanted

1:00:39

to go here 'cause I knew she had some

1:00:40

interesting history with the feminist movement.

1:00:42

So we're there, so she comes out

1:00:45

and I have to confess I was not

1:00:48

particularly stimulated by her appearance,

1:00:51

she looked kinda doubty, she had her,

1:00:56

sorry, now I have gray hair, so I

1:00:59

have to be careful how I say this.

1:01:01

(laughter)

1:01:03

She had gray hair tied up in a bun.

1:01:06

-

Yes.

1:01:08

-

And she had old lady shoes.

1:01:09

-

Yes.

1:01:13

-

And a black dress, it was like

1:01:14

okay, what's this gonna be like.

1:01:16

Excuse me, Sherri.

1:01:20

-

Sure.

1:01:21

(Mary blows her nose)

1:01:24

-

So I didn't know her work as a mystery writer.

1:01:30

So anyway, she launched into her presentation.

1:01:33

I can't believe how judgmental

1:01:37

I just sounded when I said that,

1:01:38

but that's what was going through

1:01:40

my mind, it's like she's the speaker?

1:01:41

(laughter)

1:01:43

Now this was a long time ago, I didn't

1:01:45

have any gray hair then, so I was being

1:01:47

totally judgmental of gray hair.

1:01:49

Then she launched into this, about what

1:01:53

it was like, the feminist movement,

1:01:55

and what significant difference that it made,

1:01:57

how she was growing up, and never went to

1:02:00

a female doctor or dentist, there was

1:02:02

no such thing as a female lawyer.

1:02:05

Just example after example after example.

1:02:09

There was this row of young women

1:02:11

right in front of us, and they just

1:02:13

kept looking at each other like

1:02:15

what is she talking about, and then

1:02:16

someone said that's not true.

1:02:19

Then someone said she's making that up.

1:02:20

-

Really?

1:02:22

-

I leaned forward, I said she's

1:02:23

not making it up, it's all true.

1:02:25

-

Yeah.

1:02:27

-

And they (mumbles).

1:02:28

(laughter)

1:02:29

-

Wow!

1:02:32

-

So in a generation, all that changed.

1:02:34

When I was in school it was

1:02:37

teacher or nurse, what do you choose?

1:02:38

-

Yes.

1:02:40

-

When I was in high school you were

1:02:43

either on the college prep track or

1:02:45

the business track or the general track.

1:02:48

There was no transitioning, so I, because I

1:02:52

was in the college prep track,

1:02:55

I couldn't take typing because

1:02:57

that was in the business track.

1:02:59

(laughs) So we're talking a generation

1:03:01

or two, how all this has shifted.

1:03:03

So I think of Carolyn Halpern and that night often.

1:03:06

She was very articulate, she was brilliant.

1:03:10

-

Yes.

1:03:13

-

And she talked about how women

1:03:14

in their fifties are invisible.

1:03:16

She said fifties, maybe sixties now.

1:03:20

She said and that's a good thing, she said,

1:03:22

because for example, she says if you go

1:03:24

to a party and there's a murder committed

1:03:27

and the police are called, now she's

1:03:30

getting into her mystery writer.

1:03:32

(laughter)

1:03:33

The police are called and they come

1:03:34

and they're trying to figure out

1:03:36

who the main suspect is, and so

1:03:37

all the people say well there's a

1:03:38

middle-aged woman with short gray hair.

1:03:40

Then she said just look around.

1:03:42

We're pretty well disguised aren't we?

1:03:44

(laughter)

1:03:46

There's a lot of us out there, no one will ever find you.

1:03:48

-

She sounds very funny too.

1:03:50

Oh I love it.

1:03:52

-

She was funny, but it was like...

1:03:53

Yeah, the disguise, that was really funny.

1:03:57

-

Which kinda leads, oh go ahead.

1:04:02

-

No, go ahead.

1:04:03

-

I was gonna say which kinda leads to, as we

1:04:04

look back, what does Reimagining mean today?

1:04:06

And I don't just mean the community

1:04:08

or that conference, I mean what

1:04:10

needs (mumbles) is being reimagined today?

1:04:12

-

Today, hmmm, good question.

1:04:15

Well one of the things that leads me

1:04:30

to think about is, and I can't make

1:04:32

the exact link here where this is

1:04:34

coming in, but the current political situation.

1:04:36

The current level of lack of civil discourse.

1:04:41

Reimagining, in its essence, is about

1:04:48

feminist ways of thinking and being and doing.

1:04:51

Which is about mutual respect and

1:04:54

everybody has a place at the table.

1:04:57

And every insight, if it's someone's

1:05:00

true insight, is worthy of listening to.

1:05:02

Then you hold that up against what's

1:05:06

happening in our culture right now.

1:05:08

There's great need for recovering

1:05:12

some of those values I think,

1:05:14

I don't know where it's all gonna go.

1:05:16

-

Yes.

1:05:18

-

It's really scary.

1:05:19

I think one of the gifts that Reimagining could

1:05:21

be, and let's keep it to theological discourse.

1:05:23

-

Yes.

1:05:28

-

With the way that Islam is being portrayed

1:05:31

in the public press for example.

1:05:36

-

Yes.

1:05:39

-

My daughter is Muslim, so I myself

1:05:41

have gone through a conversion

1:05:43

experience, so to speak, of knowing

1:05:45

nothing about Islam basically to

1:05:47

having learned not a lot still,

1:05:50

but way more than I ever knew

1:05:52

because it's in my own family.

1:05:54

-

Right.

1:05:57

-

This need for interfaith understanding

1:05:57

and respect and dialogue and openness

1:05:59

to different ways of being in the world.

1:06:03

I think there's an openness to that.

1:06:10

I also think just another personal story

1:06:12

is in my entire extended family,

1:06:14

there's not a single person that

1:06:19

has a connection, any connection

1:06:20

whatsoever, to any Christian denomination.

1:06:22

-

Really?

1:06:26

-

Including my own denomination, right.

1:06:27

In my entire extended family there's not

1:06:29

a single person who has any connection

1:06:31

to any Christian denomination.

1:06:34

They're all unchurched, they're among the nones, N-O-N-E-S.

1:06:37

-

Yes, wow!

1:06:41

-

Interestingly, my daughter became Muslim

1:06:43

and it took me aback a bit, and I

1:06:47

didn't respond right away, and she

1:06:52

said well aren't you gonna say something?

1:06:54

I said well I don't know what

1:06:57

to say, I have to think about this.

1:06:58

She said well I thought you'd be happy.

1:07:01

I have to say, the response I wanted

1:07:06

to give went what, I should be happy that

1:07:08

you've abandoned the religion of your ancestors?

1:07:11

(laughter)

1:07:13

That's what was really going

1:07:16

through my mind, I couldn't say that.

1:07:17

-

Yes.

1:07:19

-

She said I wasn't anything, and now I'm something.

1:07:22

Now they were raised in my case Catholic,

1:07:27

the children were raised Catholic.

1:07:29

I just think the way the whole world is shifting

1:07:33

and the growth of the nones, N-O-N-E-S, is huge.

1:07:38

So does Christian feminism still have

1:07:43

something to contribute to the

1:07:46

broader dialogue in our culture?

1:07:48

In the religious milieu, broadly understood

1:07:52

in this time of incredible civil discord,

1:07:54

instead of discourse, particularly with this

1:07:59

upcoming election, it's scary stuff going on.

1:08:02

I think one of the things that Reimagining

1:08:05

can still give is the memory of a time

1:08:07

when people came across theological differences

1:08:11

and celebrated and listened to each

1:08:14

other's stories and had fun.

1:08:16

Then there was action for justice at

1:08:22

that conference as well, so you can't separate

1:08:23

the theology out from the justice aspect.

1:08:26

-

Yes.

1:08:28

-

I think that just keeps moving forward,

1:08:29

but it's not helpful for people on

1:08:31

any side to just automatically dismiss

1:08:34

another side because we don't understand it

1:08:37

or it's outside of our experience, or well that's

1:08:39

not what I think, or that's okay, it doesn't

1:08:43

have to be what you think, but it's what I think.

1:08:46

-

Yes.

1:08:48

-

I think that's part of what is still to be unfolded.

1:08:49

I don't know what this, if something

1:08:53

comes to mark the 25th anniversary

1:08:55

or whatever, whatever that will be,

1:08:56

so it's not just about remembering

1:08:58

the past, it's about what is the

1:09:00

cause to commit to now going forward,

1:09:02

and it's, literally a different

1:09:05

generation has been born since

1:09:07

that conference even happened.

1:09:09

-

Yes.

1:09:11

-

I started to say something earlier

1:09:11

about the different waves of feminism

1:09:13

and some of the younger people who,

1:09:16

simply because of where they were

1:09:19

born in history and time and didn't

1:09:20

experience this incredible shift

1:09:22

that happened, they can't, and then

1:09:26

they conceptually can't grasp it, so second

1:09:28

or third wave or whatever those all are,

1:09:31

they've been the beneficiaries of much of it.

1:09:34

-

Yes.

1:09:37

-

But they don't, they don't know the story somehow.

1:09:39

-

Yes.

1:09:43

-

My niece was a very gifted basketball

1:09:44

player in college, she was a college athlete.

1:09:46

I never was athletic anyway, so it

1:09:50

wouldn't have made a lot of difference,

1:09:52

but was it Title Nine, was that that thing?

1:09:53

-

It was.

1:09:55

-

Was that in the 1970s or something?

1:09:56

-

I think that's right, yes.

1:09:58

-

That was a decade after I was finished

1:09:59

with college, so it certainly didn't

1:10:02

impact me in college or high school.

1:10:03

Again, young women athletes have no

1:10:06

conception of what it was like when

1:10:09

there was no, it's like I couldn't

1:10:11

get a degree in theology because

1:10:13

it wasn't offered, they wouldn't

1:10:15

have been able to play college level

1:10:16

basketball because it wasn't offered,

1:10:18

it's like they can't believe it.

1:10:21

-

Yes.

1:10:23

-

You know?

1:10:25

-

Yes.

1:10:25

-

So there has been progress.

1:10:26

-

There has been progress, yeah, yeah.

1:10:28

So what does the next generation

1:10:30

need then to be Reimagine, do they

1:10:32

need to know the past, is that part of it?

1:10:35

-

Well my background is in history, so of

1:10:38

course I say they have to know the past.

1:10:39

-

Of course, yes, well I (mumbles) theologians,

1:10:41

so I'm biased too, but go ahead, yes.

1:10:43

(laughter)

1:10:44

-

So name the question once more.

1:10:46

-

Oh sure, so given that they haven't

1:10:48

experienced that, what does Reimagining

1:10:52

mean for this generation going forward?

1:10:55

-

Right.

1:10:59

(clears throat)

1:11:00

-

What can Reimagining give them?

1:11:03

What does Reimagining mean for them?

1:11:08

I keep changing the question, I'm thinking out loud here.

1:11:09

-

Right, that's okay, so when you

1:11:11

say Reimagining I'm thinking of...

1:11:12

Is the question what now needs to be

1:11:16

reimagined, or is the question

1:11:18

what can Reimagining, what, this,

1:11:21

the conference, the community that

1:11:25

evolved, what can that give the next generation?

1:11:28

-

I started with the first question

1:11:32

and then I morphed into the second,

1:11:33

so there's a reason you're seeing both.

1:11:35

-

Right, okay.

1:11:37

-

So answer one or both of those.

1:11:38

-

Well I think that history is important,

1:11:39

I just really believe that, I live

1:11:41

my life rooted in that belief.

1:11:43

(clears throat) Context is all.

1:11:46

Context is all.

1:11:48

To really understand where this,

1:11:50

even if they, young women who have

1:11:52

interest in this, and there is

1:11:54

a whole 'nother wave of young women,

1:11:55

brilliant writers, and people coming into it.

1:11:57

Way beyond the experience of, for example, this conference.

1:12:01

-

Yes.

1:12:04

-

But still to know our history.

1:12:06

That's why I'm staying with that

1:12:07

first question for just a minute.

1:12:09

-

Sure.

1:12:10

-

That's why I love Mary Malone's

1:12:11

series on women and Christianity.

1:12:12

I thought I knew a fair amount about

1:12:14

the history of women in Christianity.

1:12:17

There are so many women in there,

1:12:20

I never even heard their names,

1:12:22

must less know their stories.

1:12:24

Really significant stories,

1:12:26

really significant accomplishments.

1:12:28

I had, many times as I was reading

1:12:31

those that series, we used it for

1:12:33

a (mumbles) class, I had the same reaction

1:12:34

that I had when I first encountered Hildegard.

1:12:37

Why didn't anybody ever tell us this?

1:12:41

-

Yes.

1:12:43

-

Somebody's been holding back.

1:12:44

-

Yes.

1:12:45

-

Why didn't someone tell us this?

1:12:46

-

Yes.

1:12:47

-

I had that reaction when I first

1:12:49

encountered the work of (mumbles) when

1:12:50

I was 19 years old at St. Catherine's.

1:12:52

My eyes just kept getting bigger

1:12:54

and bigger and bigger because everything

1:12:56

was making so much sense, it was like

1:12:58

why didn't anyone ever tell us this?

1:13:00

Well he'd only been dead 10 years

1:13:03

and it was forbidden to be published.

1:13:04

Now people are telling us we have

1:13:10

access to more than we've ever

1:13:12

had access to before in terms of women

1:13:14

and theology and religion and feminism

1:13:16

and so forth, okay, so that's the past.

1:13:19

So we need to honor the historians and the

1:13:21

people who did all that work, sometimes at

1:13:28

great cost and ridicule and who knows what.

1:13:30

So in terms of what needs to be reimagined now,

1:13:36

it makes me think about the whole

1:13:41

reality of religion, especially

1:13:43

mainline denominations and where they're

1:13:46

headed which is not into a period of great growth.

1:13:49

-

Yes.

1:13:53

-

So why is that?

1:13:54

Well because people aren't finding it nourishing

1:13:56

or fruitful or necessary or whatever.

1:13:59

So if the old is being swept aside 'cause

1:14:03

it's dusty, there's a little tiny

1:14:08

Presbyterian church next to my house,

1:14:10

and they used to have every Sunday morning

1:14:12

a really full parking lot, and I just

1:14:13

watched it over the 25 years I've lived there.

1:14:17

Now on a Sunday morning there's never

1:14:20

more than 10 cars in the parking lot.

1:14:22

-

Oh goodness, yes.

1:14:24

-

So it's just one tiny snapshot of

1:14:25

a bigger picture, but that's what's

1:14:27

happening with the mainline denominations.

1:14:29

The nones are increasing.

1:14:31

Then people say I'm spiritual, I'm not religious.

1:14:33

-

Right.

1:14:35

-

Yes, okay, and is there any gifts that

1:14:37

religion can still give to our spirituality?

1:14:44

Some of us have had to cast off the

1:14:48

religious coverings and draperies

1:14:51

'cause they were suffocating, but then

1:14:54

what's at the heart of that, so then

1:14:56

we finally find the access to our

1:14:59

spirituality, but then how do we

1:15:00

live that, how do we embody that?

1:15:03

Well is there anything that the

1:15:05

traditions have to inform that

1:15:07

that would not be suffocating?

1:15:11

That that would be enhancing, so it's

1:15:13

maybe a different starting point.

1:15:15

-

Yes.

1:15:17

-

So with the next generation, I just

1:15:18

think of my own nieces and nephews

1:15:19

and they're totally unchurched,

1:15:22

they don't have a framework, but they

1:15:23

have some deeply spiritual questions,

1:15:26

but not a context to know where to

1:15:28

even begin to go to sort that out.

1:15:30

-

Yes.

1:15:34

-

I find myself speaking several different

1:15:35

languages, even with my brother metaphorically.

1:15:37

-

Yes.

1:15:40

-

But I don't use certain words or certain

1:15:41

language because they will immediately

1:15:45

put me in the box of...

1:15:46

Where I don't live anymore, where I

1:15:51

haven't lived for decades.

1:15:53

It doesn't even make sense to me,

1:15:55

but that's where they put me if I use

1:15:57

certain language that they perceive as religious.

1:15:58

-

Yes.

1:16:03

-

I might not even intend it as that.

1:16:04

But I personally still think there's

1:16:07

some value that can be redeemed,

1:16:10

you know the whole thing about feminists,

1:16:14

what are those words about...

1:16:15

Rosemary Ruether writes about that.

1:16:18

Whether tradition is reformable or can be redeemed or not.

1:16:20

I've cast my lot in with the ones who,

1:16:27

some say yes, it can be redeemed.

1:16:29

-

So I just have to ask, so what is,

1:16:31

what do you hold onto, what can be

1:16:35

brought forward, what is of value?

1:16:37

-

Okay, speaking as a...

1:16:39

(laughs) As a...

1:16:43

Oh, (mumbles).

1:16:47

One little strand leads to another.

1:16:49

-

Yes.

1:16:51

-

I'm speaking, what's, I'm sorry, how did you ask that?

1:16:52

-

Oh sure, what other tradition is valuable?

1:16:56

Can be used today?

1:16:59

-

Okay, so I speak as a Christian woman

1:17:01

rooted in the Catholic tradition,

1:17:08

I prefer to say Celtic Christian

1:17:10

rather than Roman Christian, Roman Catholic,

1:17:12

but nevertheless I was shaped and

1:17:14

formed in the Roman rite of the

1:17:16

Catholic tradition of Christianity.

1:17:20

-

Yes.

1:17:23

-

The Jesus story, I'm not ready to give up on Jesus.

1:17:24

I can chuck a lot of the church stuff.

1:17:28

-

Yes.

1:17:30

-

But I'm not ready to toss out the Jesus story.

1:17:31

I had the privilege for 15 years of teaching

1:17:34

Christology in the deacon formation program.

1:17:36

The richest teaching experience I ever had

1:17:42

was the year that in the class was one man

1:17:45

from St. Agnes' parish, probably the

1:17:48

most conservative parish in the diocese,

1:17:51

and one man from St. Joan of Arc parish,

1:17:53

one of the most liberal parishes.

1:17:56

-

Wow.

1:17:58

-

When the course started, they each

1:17:59

thought the other, they didn't use this word,

1:18:01

but they, from things they said clearly,

1:18:03

each thought the other one was a heretic.

1:18:05

As we worked our way through the chorus

1:18:10

it was like trying to examine the

1:18:12

difference between theology and faith.

1:18:13

We can have theological discussions, but we can't,

1:18:17

we're not to question one another's faith.

1:18:19

I mean we have to honor one another's faith

1:18:22

even when we could have deep deep

1:18:25

theological differences, and we used

1:18:27

offers like Albert Nolan, Jesus Before Christianity

1:18:30

he wrote out of the South African context.

1:18:34

-

Yes.

1:18:36

-

Elizabeth Johnson's Consider Jesus which

1:18:37

grew out of a series of lectures

1:18:39

that she also actually gave in South Africa.

1:18:41

C.H. Dodd, an old book, The Founder of Christianity.

1:18:49

Just trying to separate out who Jesus was,

1:18:52

the Jesus story, from what was done to Jesus,

1:18:57

what happened in the development of Christianity

1:19:02

after Constantine and that whole story.

1:19:05

For me it's been peeling away all

1:19:09

these layers to try to get back

1:19:11

to the heart of the Jesus story,

1:19:12

and in my own denomination Pope Francis

1:19:15

is going a long way towards leading

1:19:17

us back to the heart after some decades.

1:19:20

-

And what do you see as the heart?

1:19:24

What is the heart of the Jesus story?

1:19:26

-

Well in the CSJ community, which I

1:19:30

also belong to, I'm a consociate

1:19:32

of the Sisters of Saint Joseph,

1:19:34

the language that we use is love of God

1:19:36

and of the dear neighbor without distinction.

1:19:38

It's a little phrase that we (mumbles)

1:19:42

we're moving always toward love of God

1:19:44

and of the dear neighbor without distinction.

1:19:45

So if I had to give what is the

1:19:48

heart of Jesus story in one sentence,

1:19:49

that's how I would name it.

1:19:51

-

Well boy, that (mumbles) of the gospel.

1:19:55

That's what Jesus said!

1:19:57

(laughter)

1:19:58

-

Yes exactly, right.

-

Yes.

1:20:00

-

So then all these rules that grew up

1:20:01

and punishments, it doesn't fit.

1:20:03

-

Yes.

1:20:06

-

I think there's a way to redeem all of that.

1:20:08

-

Well that's beautiful and powerful.

1:20:12

I have one last question for you

1:20:15

and it's a very specific one.

1:20:16

-

Okay.

1:20:18

-

That is we're working on a Reimagining website,

1:20:19

and I'm wondering if you have ideas,

1:20:21

we're gathering suggestions about,

1:20:24

well first of all what would be helpful

1:20:27

to be included on the website, what would

1:20:29

people look for, and also ideas about

1:20:31

who would benefit from it, who would,

1:20:33

so any thoughts about either one of those.

1:20:35

-

What to include and who would benefit.

1:20:39

Well let me go into the second one first.

1:20:42

-

Please, yes.

1:20:44

-

Who would benefit, people who experience

1:20:45

the first conference I would think would

1:20:48

benefit just for celebratory reasons.

1:20:49

-

Yes.

1:20:53

-

People who are interested historically

1:20:54

in the experience, and sometimes young

1:20:56

women especially are interested in that all.

1:20:59

If it's not only about the history, but about resources.

1:21:05

-

It will be both.

1:21:08

-

To now and future oriented, that would

1:21:09

draw in a whole other group of people who--

1:21:13

-

Other resources you can think of?

1:21:15

You can think about it later too,

1:21:16

but anything that comes to mind now?

1:21:18

-

Well I'm thinking of these four main

1:21:23

categories that this conference was about.

1:21:25

Reimagining God, Reimagining Community.

1:21:31

We only had four?

1:21:38

-

There were actually more than that,

1:21:39

Creation, The Church, there were

1:21:41

quite a few different categories--

1:21:45

-

Oh Jesus, sorry, Jesus, Creation, Church,

1:21:46

Sexuality and Family, Language, Women Arts

1:21:51

and Church, Ethics, the justice piece,

1:21:56

Work and Ministry, and Church as Worshiping Community.

1:21:58

So if those were categories for example,

1:22:03

I'm just playing with this.

1:22:06

-

Yes, yes.

1:22:07

-

If those were categories on the website.

1:22:08

-

Nice.

1:22:10

-

Who are some current theologians

1:22:10

or resource people that are doing work?

1:22:14

-

That's a great idea.

1:22:16

-

On these.

1:22:17

Now for example, Elizabeth Johnson's

1:22:19

new book on Jesus and (mumbles) perspective.

1:22:20

There's Creation, so much wonderful

1:22:27

work being done on ecology and theology.

1:22:29

-

Oh yes.

1:22:32

-

She wouldn't probably describe herself

1:22:33

as a feminist theologian, but the

1:22:35

work that Mary Ellen Tucker and John Grim

1:22:36

are doing at Yale on the forum for religion

1:22:39

and ecology, do you know of that work at all?

1:22:42

-

Not very much, no.

1:22:45

-

Just amazing, amazing work they're doing.

1:22:46

-

Yes.

1:22:48

So having links to that, that's a great idea.

1:22:49

-

In each of these, church as spiritual institution.

1:22:52

-

Yes, that's a great idea.

1:22:54

-

So that would be one way to go

1:22:57

at it, so they're contemporary.

1:22:58

-

Yes.

1:23:00

-

And then maybe names of places that are doing

1:23:07

some really creative work around all these topics?

1:23:09

-

Yes.

1:23:13

-

I don't know what those would be exactly.

1:23:14

-

Wisdom Ways for sure.

1:23:16

-

You think Wisdom Ways?

1:23:17

-

Absolutely.

1:23:18

-

There was another, do you know Anne Patrick by any chance?

1:23:21

-

I do, yes.

1:23:27

-

Well Anne put me on some years ago

1:23:28

to a place called, I think it was called

1:23:30

Mount Saint Agnes or something, centered out

1:23:32

east that did some work similar to Wisdom Ways.

1:23:34

-

Ah.

1:23:36

-

She was, when she taught at Carlton

1:23:37

she always would bring carloads of

1:23:38

students up for different Wisdom Ways

1:23:39

conferences and things, and when it

1:23:42

was time for questions and answers,

1:23:44

after the speaker finished, invariably the

1:23:45

first hand that shot up into the air

1:23:48

was one of the Carlton students.

1:23:49

(laughter)

1:23:51

She had them so well prepared,

1:23:52

they'd done (mumbles) readings

1:23:53

-

That's wonderful.

-

Before they came and she's been

1:23:55

just a great, I love her, I really love her.

1:23:57

-

Yes.

1:24:00

-

And her own work in Justice and Moral Christian Feminism,

1:24:02

that great title for her book Liberating Conscience.

1:24:08

I love the play on words.

1:24:11

Of course her background was in language

1:24:12

and literature as well as theology.

1:24:14

-

Yes.

1:24:18

-

So anyway, there'd be all kinds of

1:24:20

different directions you could go

1:24:21

I think, just using these main categories.

1:24:22

That's one way to go with the website.

1:24:25

And it's okay, Reimagining God, Jesus, Creation, Church.

1:24:28

-

That's a great idea.

1:24:32

-

Then you don't have to start with a blank page.

1:24:34

-

Exactly, exactly.

1:24:35

-

Necessarily.

-

And it's still pointing to our history and

1:24:38

tradition by bringing it up to the present day.

1:24:39

-

Exactly.

1:24:41

-

Yes, yeah.

1:24:42

-

So I think of that.

1:24:44

-

Mary Kaye, this has been delightful.

1:24:46

Is there anything we haven't

1:24:48

discussed that you would like to add?

1:24:49

-

That's always a great last question isn't it?

1:24:52

(laughter)

1:24:54

I wanna thank you personally for taking this on,

1:24:57

especially because I love history so much.

1:25:00

-

Me too.

1:25:03

-

Because this was so significant

1:25:04

for so many many people, and then

1:25:06

it ends up on a bookshelf.

1:25:08

I'm pleased that I still have the book,

1:25:12

that I still have all my notes.

1:25:14

I have the little notes from the

1:25:16

people that were at my circle, at my table.

1:25:17

-

Wonderful.

1:25:21

-

Occasionally I still draw from

1:25:23

this for a ritual or a text or something,

1:25:25

and the song book was so great, but you're

1:25:27

bringing it not only into the present,

1:25:30

but into the future, and that is very

1:25:32

very exciting, so I wanna thank you

1:25:35

personally for taking this on because

1:25:37

I think it's very significant.

1:25:40

-

Thank you, and it's a joy to do.

1:25:43

-

I can tell that, you were so

1:25:45

enthusiastic about it, it's wonderful.

1:25:46

-

Yes, yes, well I get to meet

1:25:48

great people like you and other people.

1:25:49

I'm gonna turn it off now.

1:25:52

Medinger, Mary Kaye

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