Kuhns, Mary / Re-Imagining Collection / Duke Digital Repository

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Okay, Mary.

0:01

Nice to talk to you.

0:02

Do you wanna give me some background?

0:04

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Sure. So, I am clergy.

0:06

Mary Kuhns is the name.

0:10

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Yes.

0:12

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Presbyterian Church, USA.

0:13

I was born in Pontiac, Michigan,

0:15

in 1945.

0:19

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Okay.

0:22

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I went to Muskingum College,

0:24

which is now Muskingum University, in Southeastern Ohio,

0:27

and then to Louisville Presbyterian Seminary.

0:32

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Okay.

0:35

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And then got a Doctor of Ministry

0:36

from Columbia Seminary in Atlanta.

0:40

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Wonderful.

0:44

Great.

0:45

And what work or ministry were you doing

0:47

at the time of Re-Imagining, Mary?

0:49

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I was associate for Justice for Women,

0:52

in the women's unit.

0:56

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Could you tell me a little bit more about

0:57

what that involved?

0:59

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Well, if you think of any issue regarding women,

1:02

that's pretty much what it involved.

1:05

I think our main emphasis--

1:08

It was a national committee.

1:10

We had about 30 on it, I believe.

1:12

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Oh.

1:15

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And we dealt with

1:16

economic justice, language,

1:20

theology,

1:24

reproductive rights.

1:26

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Wow.

1:28

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Boy, you name it, we dealt with it.

1:29

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Yeah.

1:31

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We had

1:32

justice for women groups

1:35

in probably two-thirds of our presbyteries,

1:37

of which we had maybe 180, more or less.

1:41

And, so, we had those committees around the country.

1:47

The folks on Justice for Women, on the national committee,

1:52

represented the synods,

1:56

as well as some different organizations.

2:00

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Mhmm.

2:02

And just so you could clarify me,

2:04

what was your relationship in terms of job

2:06

to Mary Ann Lundy?

2:08

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She was my boss.

2:10

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Okay.

2:11

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There was a women's unit committee,

2:13

but underneath the women's unit there were four--

2:15

Four, as soon as I say that,

2:20

I won't be able to think of them.

2:21

There were four sub--

2:23

Not really sub-committees,

2:25

but there were four national committees.

2:27

There was Justice for Women,

2:29

Women Employed by the Church, Third World Women,

2:31

and I can't remember the fourth.

2:36

Which may have been the Women's Unit Committee itself.

2:39

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Yes.

2:42

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And we all were national committees and

2:43

each had a staff person.

2:48

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And Mary Ann Lundy sort of oversaw all of that.

2:50

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She oversaw all of it, exactly.

2:52

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Good, good.

2:54

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Yeah.

2:55

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And Mary, what work or ministry

2:56

did you do after Re-Imagining?

2:57

Which was from 1993 to 2003.

2:59

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Yeah, well, let's see.

3:04

I left the Presbyterian center,

3:05

which is where I was working, at the end of '93,

3:09

and went in to private practice in

3:14

Marriage and Family Therapy

3:17

and Pastoral Counseling.

3:19

Also, supervising students at Louisville Seminary,

3:22

and teaching adjunct faculty there,

3:26

and eventually did stated supply work in a local church and

3:32

stuff like that.

3:36

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Wow, varied.

3:37

Very interesting.

3:39

So, do you recall how or when you first

3:41

knew about Feminist Theology?

3:44

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Well, I'm going to guess, I don't--

3:48

There wasn't a time, as in "When was I saved?"

3:50

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Right.

3:53

(laughter)

3:54

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Yeah, but I went on the council on Women in the Church,

3:57

which was a national committee, like Justice for Women,

4:01

back in the '70's.

4:06

I was asked to go on that committee

4:09

representing the synod of the South,

4:12

where I lived in Atlanta doing ministry at that time,

4:14

and that was really my first experience with any kind of

4:18

women's advocacy group at all,

4:23

and so that's when I learned about Feminist Theology

4:26

and inclusive language and reproductive rights

4:29

and all of that.

4:32

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Do you recall how you--

4:34

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Before that, I really didn't--

4:35

Well, I learned a little bit about it at the synod level.

4:37

I was on the city--

4:40

I was on the synod,

4:41

oh, good question, I'm not sure what it was called,

4:45

but I was on a synod committee that nominated me

4:47

to the Council on Women in the Church,

4:50

and there may have been some of this

4:54

discussion on that committee.

4:55

So, it was like 1975 or six.

4:57

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Do you recall what your initial reaction

5:02

to all of this was?

5:04

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Yes, I loved it.

5:08

I was expecting, when I went on this national committee,

5:09

I was expecting way far-out,

5:14

radical women,

5:18

and I was expecting to not fit in,

5:20

and I absolutely loved it,

5:23

and all of the women and the men

5:24

that were on the committee.

5:26

I just loved it, so.

5:27

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That's great.

5:29

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And I was conned into becoming

5:30

the chair of that committee.

5:32

(laughter)

5:33

That's how much I loved it.

5:35

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That's great.

5:37

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Yeah.

5:38

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I wonder if we could move to the Re-Imagining community,

5:41

and if you could talk some about your relationship

5:44

to the Re-Imagining community.

5:46

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Well, you say the community.

5:49

My relationship really is to the Re-Imagining conference.

5:50

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Okay.

5:55

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Not to the community that continued after.

5:56

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Sure.

5:59

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And that was by virtue of job, as much as anything,

6:00

and it was being more supportive of Mary Ann,

6:04

'cause we didn't--

6:07

I don't remember Justice for Women having specific

6:08

responsibilities for it, except to attend,

6:14

and to help Mary Ann as she needed help.

6:17

'Cause there was a committee that was doing it.

6:20

Kind of a local committee, and so we knew about it,

6:22

I was in on the initial,

6:26

when it was going to be--

6:29

When the project was being written up to be funded,

6:33

I was in on that conversation

6:36

and what Mary Ann envisioned it would be and all of that,

6:38

and so I remembered just kind of being in on that,

6:41

as part of helping to write it up

6:44

and get it into where there was going to be funds proposed.

6:47

But then, it was basically, like I say, attending,

6:52

and being supportive.

6:56

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Mhmm.

6:58

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There wasn't much organizing that I did or

6:59

anything else in that regard.

7:02

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Mhmm.

7:05

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Encouraged, of course,

7:06

as many of our committee members to go as could.

7:07

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Mhmm.

7:12

Do you remember, and I know it's been a long time,

7:13

but do you remember what, kind of, the initial vision was?

7:15

As, that you were helping Mary Ann to apply, or to--

7:18

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Well, what, yeah, what I remember was,

7:21

it was going to be an international conference

7:24

of Feminists and Womanists and Mujeristas,

7:27

primarily a theological conference.

7:30

And it wasn't going to be, as I recall,

7:34

it was not going to be as large as it ended up being.

7:36

But it was more that kind of Ecumenical,

7:41

let's get folks together and talk about this

7:44

in a way that had not been talked about before.

7:47

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Mhmm.

7:50

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So, that's sort of what I remember.

7:51

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Yeah, that's good.

7:52

So you were at the '93 conference.

7:54

Was that the only conference that you ever attended?

7:56

For Re-Imagining?

7:59

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Yeah, as far as,

8:00

I don't think I went to the follow-ups,

8:01

so yes, that's the only conference.

8:03

I'll tell you about more follow-up after that--

8:05

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Good.

8:08

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That's sort of a, I don't know what I would call it,

8:09

a sub-conference of Re-Imagining, perhaps.

8:11

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Oh, I wanna hear about this,

8:14

but first I wanna hear about,

8:16

what do you remember about your experience

8:17

at the '93 conference, what was that like?

8:19

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Well, it was wonderful for me,

8:23

it really was.

8:25

It was--

8:25

Some of the worship, even for me,

8:27

was a little far-out.

8:29

I'm not into a lot of drum and dancing.

8:31

I wasn't, at the time, as being part of worship,

8:34

so some of that I had to, just kind of,

8:37

say "This is okay, I can deal with this,"

8:40

and let myself enjoy.

8:44

But, it was stretching.

8:46

I liked most, I don't remember being at odds with

8:51

anything that was said or done, really.

8:55

I thought it was really, very creative,

8:57

and really wonderful, and the music was great,

8:59

and enjoyed all of it, plus,

9:04

you may not have heard of David Lahm,

9:07

who is a Jazz pianist,

9:10

whom, I have a lot of his CD's.

9:14

He was staying in the same hotel I was staying at.

9:16

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Oh really!?

9:19

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During the conference.

9:20

And, so I got to see him live and in person.

9:21

(laughter)

9:24

So, that's another thing I remember from Re-Imagining is

9:25

David Lahm stayed at my hotel.

9:28

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That would be pretty spectacular,

9:30

that's great.

9:32

(laughter)

9:33

Are there kind of--

9:35

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But the conference itself was really wonderful.

9:36

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Are there any moments, and once again,

9:37

I know it's been a long time,

9:39

but are there any moments in particular

9:40

that stand out for you?

9:42

Any aspects that were particularly great?

9:45

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Well, the--

9:48

What I remember is the worship around round tables,

9:49

which was very different for me,

9:53

and then how the speakers rotated.

9:55

You know, 45 degrees, every so often,

10:01

so that they were speaking to each segment

10:05

of the audience at some point.

10:08

And then the--

10:11

I, of course, remember the blessing.

10:12

The sung blessing that we did.

10:15

So, those things stand out to me.

10:17

Some of the workshops, not so much.

10:21

I was in Dolores Williams' workshop,

10:24

and I do remember just thoroughly enjoying her talk,

10:28

very much, the one that got her in trouble.

10:32

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Right.

10:34

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I don't really remember many of the others,

10:37

but I just remember,

10:39

what I remember is that they were dynamic.

10:41

They were all dynamic.

10:42

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Yes.

10:44

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I couldn't tell you much what any of them said,

10:45

but I just know it was inspiring,

10:47

it was dynamic, it was kind of,

10:49

"Come on, women, get it together and get going,"

10:52

and that inclusive language was wonderful.

10:55

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Yes.

10:58

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'Cause that was not being experienced by any of us,

10:59

I don't think, universally.

11:01

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Mhmm.

11:03

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So that was pretty wonderful.

11:04

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Exactly.

11:05

Well, I know you know about the backlash.

11:07

First, did any of it affect you directly?

11:09

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Not really.

11:15

I mean, it affected me directly

11:18

because it affected Mary Ann.

11:20

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Yes.

11:23

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And she and I are still best friends,

11:24

so we were best friends there,

11:25

so it affected me in that way.

11:27

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Yeah.

11:30

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My presbytery, I belonged to Louisville Presbytery,

11:33

and they were pretty liberal,

11:38

so I don't remember any problems with my presbytery at all,

11:40

and they already knew I was--

11:45

Anyway,

11:47

so this was no surprise for them.

11:48

So, no, it really didn't affect me, uh-uh.

11:52

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Yeah.

11:54

Well, what do you recall about how it affected other people?

11:55

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Well, it's primarily as it affected

12:01

Mary Ann that I remember,

12:03

because I was so intimately involved with that and

12:05

was with her right after she got fired and

12:10

kind of blew up at Jim Brown, who fired her.

12:14

So, that's really what I remember.

12:20

I don't remember other people getting in trouble.

12:23

I remember hearing from people who were kinda

12:26

having some fallout from it but

12:29

I guess I probably didn't pay

12:33

a whole lot of attention to that,

12:34

since it was happening right in my backyard.

12:36

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Yeah.

12:39

You mentioned that you left there in '93,

12:39

did your leaving have anything to do with this?

12:42

Or it was unrelated?

12:44

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No, no, they gave--

12:46

They were downsizing, they did a major downsizing

12:48

and offered a nice umbrella, and I was--

12:51

I was worn out by then.

12:55

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Mhmm.

12:57

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I'm a high introvert,

13:00

so traveling around the country

13:01

and making speeches constantly just wore me out,

13:03

so I was ready to be gone.

13:06

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Yeah, yeah. Sure.

13:09

Looking back on it, how do you account for the backlash?

13:12

What do you think caused that?

13:15

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Well, a lot of it, I think was

13:19

our own press not being there to cover it.

13:23

So there was a void in our own press coverage,

13:26

so the only press coverage it got was from the Layman.

13:31

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Mhmm.

13:34

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And, even though most people

13:34

didn't take the Layman seriously,

13:37

since nothing else was being said,

13:39

and since the backlash was so great

13:43

from what the Layman said,

13:46

that it caused all this effect,

13:49

which, I just think it was gross overreaction

13:52

on the part of 100 Witherspoon Street, really.

13:58

That folks didn't know what to do with

14:03

all the stuff they were getting from the Layman.

14:06

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Mhmm.

14:08

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And since they didn't know any other,

14:09

and since we were all women,

14:11

and since we were all in advocacy,

14:12

you know, it must be true.

14:15

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Mhmm.

14:17

Yeah.

14:18

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And, of course, what they said,

14:19

in a sense was true.

14:20

We did have milk and honey.

14:21

I wouldn't call it communion, but, of course,

14:23

even if it was, who cares?

14:25

But, you know, it was all so misinterpreted, so--

14:28

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Yeah.

14:33

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Yeah.

14:35

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I'm curious, were you at general assembly,

14:35

that kind of dealt with the Re-Imagining issue?

14:38

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Yeah, I'm sure I was.

14:42

I don't remember a whole lot about it, actually.

14:45

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Sure.

14:48

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I tend to repress all that stuff

14:49

and not remember it well.

14:51

I'm sure I was there, I was there for--

14:53

Well, you know, I say that, was I still--

14:57

I think I was, yeah, I think, I'm pretty sure I was,

15:02

but obviously I don't remember well.

15:05

(laughter)

15:06

I think I was there and hanging out

15:08

with Mary Ann a good chunk of the time.

15:09

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Yeah.

15:12

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When was that general assembly?

15:13

Do you know, do you?

15:15

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It was in '94.

15:17

I'm trying to remember, I don't remember the exact month,

15:19

though.

15:22

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I would not have been on staff,

15:23

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Okay.

15:25

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So the only way I would have been there

15:26

is if I were a resource person on reproductive rights,

15:27

which I was for years--

15:32

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Mhmm.

15:34

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After I went off staff,

15:35

and I don't remember whether I was or not, so.

15:37

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Yeah.

15:40

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I guess I don't remember if I was there or not.

15:41

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Yeah. Yeah, well that's fine,

15:43

it's been a while.

15:45

I wanna hear what you were saying about the other group,

15:46

the Re-Imagining group, that--

15:49

What were you talking about?

15:51

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Yeah, so.

15:52

A friend and I, and probably a couple others,

15:56

had been talking for years,

15:59

ever since we were on council,

16:01

on Women in the Church together,

16:03

about starting an organization

16:05

that would be really really far-out,

16:06

so that we would get the heat,

16:09

and organizations within the structure would look good.

16:11

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Oh.

16:14

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And we sort of joked about it and talked about it,

16:16

and every now and then we'd say, "Is it time yet?

16:18

"Is it time to start that group yet?"

16:21

And so after all the flak from Re-Imagining,

16:23

we decided it was time.

16:26

And so, in '90--

16:29

I guess it was in '94,

16:31

I believe it was in fall of '94.

16:34

Pretty sure.

16:38

We started Voices of Sophia.

16:39

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Mhmm.

16:42

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And that was kind of a--

16:44

It was a national organization.

16:47

My friend and I envisioned it being

16:50

more ecumenical than it was.

16:52

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Mhmm.

16:54

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But we started Voices of Sophia

16:56

and it went pretty strong for about 10 years,

16:58

and we had annual conferences

17:02

around the country.

17:06

We had about five to 600 members at its height.

17:08

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Wow.

17:11

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And we called it Voices of Sophia.

17:15

There was a lot of discussion about the name.

17:18

Folks not wanting to be too out there,

17:22

and we kept saying,

17:26

"No, that's part of why we're starting this organization,

17:26

"is to be out there."

17:29

We followed in the tradition of Re-Imagining, by,

17:33

that the themes of our annual meetings would be theology,

17:36

We would have one or two special speakers come

17:40

to work with us.

17:44

We'd have workshops, do creative worship,

17:45

that kind of thing.

17:48

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Mhmm.

17:49

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We met outside of Washington, we met in Louisville.

17:50

We met in, at Ghost--

17:55

Yeah, Ghost Ranch, I think, once.

17:58

We met in Tucson once.

18:01

We met in St. Louis, outside of St. Louis.

18:03

So we met in different places along the way,

18:07

over those 10 years.

18:10

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Mhmm.

18:11

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So that's what I got personally involved with,

18:12

and not the Re-Imagining community.

18:14

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Yes.

18:16

But the name Sophia was chosen because of Re-Imagining?

18:17

Is that right?

18:21

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No.

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No?

18:22

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That's just what we decided, Sophia, we would--

18:23

Well, you know, yes, probably, at least partially.

18:26

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Yes.

18:28

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Because of Re-Imagining.

18:29

Yes.

18:30

Just saying, it's a good name, we're gonna claim it.

18:31

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Yeah.

18:33

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My name for it was Feminists United for Church Upheaval.

18:36

Otherwise known as FUCU.

18:41

I think the group decided that was little too far out there.

18:44

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Mary, I'm starting to lose you a little bit.

18:48

You're breaking up.

18:50

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Uh oh.

18:51

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Let's see if we can get'cha back here.

18:53

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Okay.

18:56

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Let's see.

18:57

Your picture's still a little funny.

18:58

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Okay, I'm not having any trouble with you, so--

19:01

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Okay, you're starting to come back into picture.

19:05

Can we pick up where you talked about your name, was it?

19:07

For Feminists for Church Upheaval, or something?

19:09

And then what'd you say after that?

19:12

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Yeah, that was my name for it,

19:13

Feminists for Church Upheaval,

19:15

with the acronym of F-U-C-U.

19:17

(laughter)

19:21

Yeah.

19:23

But folks decided that was a little too far out there.

19:24

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Really!?

19:27

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So we stuck with Voices of Sophia.

19:29

(laughter)

19:30

Yeah, uh-huh.

19:33

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I just interviewed Sylvia Thorson-Smith.

19:35

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Oh, yeah.

19:38

Well Sylvia and I were the two

19:38

that started Voices of Sophia, yeah.

19:40

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Okay, yes, yes.

19:42

I love it.

19:44

Yeah, yeah.

19:45

And it sounds like an amazing organization,

19:47

and I'm just learning about it.

19:50

Do you have particular memories from that organization

19:51

that are really powerful?

19:54

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Well, all I remember is it was so great

19:57

to get together once a year

19:59

with people we didn't have to worry about what we said.

20:01

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And who all used inclusive language,

20:04

'cause even to this day, it is not universal, so,

20:06

I mean, in my local church, it is not,

20:12

what I would like it to be, with a female pastor, so.

20:15

It's just kind of the way it is,

20:21

so that was a good chunk of it.

20:22

And the group, the group itself was just phenomenal.

20:25

We would have

20:28

anywhere from, I would say,

20:30

40 to 70, 80 people attend one of our annual conferences,

20:32

and it was just wonderful.

20:38

The difficulty was, since I was on the planning committee,

20:40

for a good chunk of the time,

20:44

I was always so busy with the details,

20:45

that I didn't get to enjoy it as I might have wanted to.

20:49

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Yes.

20:52

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But it was very special.

20:54

It was good to be a part of that group.

20:56

You know, I'm sure Sylvia told you,

20:58

it has folded into another group now,

21:00

so it still exists, to some degree.

21:04

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Yes.

21:06

I'm curious, did your group experience backlash, as well?

21:08

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No, not really, no.

21:13

Because these, you know, the folks who attended this

21:15

were already out there so much that no one was surprised

21:17

at any of this, from us.

21:21

(laughter)

21:23

No, we were as we were.

21:26

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Yes.

21:28

And it was pretty much all Presbyterian women and men?

21:29

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Yeah, it was.

21:33

It started out, we had--

21:34

When we started out we had a Baptist and a Methodist,

21:35

and, I'm not even remembering,

21:40

we had five or six ecumenical participants

21:42

at our first big conference,

21:46

but five or six isn't gonna continue, so--

21:48

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Yeah.

21:52

-

It ended up being primarily Presbyterian.

21:53

-

And I think, it's from looking at her archives,

21:56

was Jeanne Audrey Powers the Methodist woman

21:58

who was involved?

22:01

-

Yes.

-

Yeah, okay.

22:01

-

Yeah, she was.

22:02

-

'Cause she, yeah.

22:03

-

She came a year or two, she did not come all the time,

22:05

but she did come a year or two.

22:09

-

Yeah, yeah.

22:10

-

Yeah.

22:11

-

Good.

22:12

So, Mary, how would you define Re-Imagining?

22:13

-

Well, I would, again,

22:20

define it as a conference that

22:22

made Feminist theology the highlight and

22:28

Feminist language,

22:35

Feminist theology and

22:36

inclusive language the highlight,

22:39

and really demonstrated how

22:41

the church could be about doing that quite legitimately.

22:44

And well.

22:50

-

Yes.

22:51

-

That's what I would say.

22:52

Nothing very spectacular about it, to my way of thinking,

22:55

you know, very simply done,

22:59

and very legitimately done.

23:02

-

Yeah, yeah.

23:06

-

Yeah.

23:07

-

So, what aspects of Re-Imagining

23:08

were most significant to you, would you say?

23:10

-

I think the worship parts were most significant to me.

23:14

-

Yeah.

23:17

-

Because I was,

23:18

at the time that,

23:21

let me see, that was in Louisville.

23:23

At the time that was happening,

23:26

I was in a pretty good church, actually.

23:28

Well, I should say that I was in a decent church.

23:30

And it was a pretty safe Presbyterian denominational church,

23:34

and so the worship was exciting--

23:38

-

Okay, good.

23:42

-

And, like I say, and creative,

23:43

in ways that I have never experienced.

23:44

So that was the most remarkable part to me.

23:47

-

Good.

23:50

You're breaking up just a little bit again, I'm sorry!

23:50

(laughter)

23:52

-

Okay.

23:54

-

You were saying it was creative and,

23:55

there, you're back again, okay, good.

23:57

-

Okay, good.

23:59

-

Could you just repeat, maybe the last sentence,

24:00

to make sure, the last part--

24:01

-

Well, yeah, it was creative and exciting,

24:03

and that was what was the most memorable for me.

24:06

-

Yes, yeah, exactly.

24:11

Did your involvement in Re-Imagining

24:14

change your perspective on Feminist theology or the church?

24:16

And if so--

24:19

-

No, no.

24:20

-

Yes.

24:22

-

No, not really, at all.

24:22

I just felt,

24:24

there was no excuse for us not all to be doing this.

24:24

-

Yes.

24:27

-

That was where I got more entrenched, probably,

24:29

in my advocacy, was,

24:34

"There's no reason we can't be doing this,

24:36

"and why the heck do men feel so threatened?"

24:38

-

Yeah, so were you surprised by the backlash,

24:40

and the reaction to it?

24:43

-

Oh yes. Yeah.

24:45

I think we all were.

24:47

It was like, "What is the big deal here?"

24:48

There was nothing heretical about it,

24:50

and it was, to me,

24:52

so meaningful and worshipful that

24:55

what are they reacting to?

25:01

-

Yes.

25:02

-

We were becoming more faithful than less faithful,

25:04

so, I mean, the whole thing just made no sense to me.

25:10

-

Yeah.

25:13

Do you have any idea, what were they reacting to,

25:14

Do you think?

25:16

-

Well, again, as in present-day politics,

25:18

they were reacting to the innuendo, I think,

25:23

that was put out there, primarily by the Layman.

25:28

-

Mhmm.

25:31

-

And the outright lies that this was not Christian,

25:32

you know, that we were worshiping a Goddess.

25:37

Sophia language certainly was not universal in the church,

25:40

so, unless you were somewhat of a biblical scholar,

25:43

you didn't know much about Sophia,

25:46

and no one really wanted to know about Sophia.

25:50

I think--

25:56

Feminism was, in the church, was still new enough,

25:59

even in the early 90's,

26:02

that folks were really threatened by thinking,

26:05

you know, we were still hearing, at that point,

26:08

that the more women who become pastors,

26:10

it will become a female church.

26:12

You know, men won't stay around,

26:14

so to talk about Feminist theology and Feminist worship

26:17

felt like we were gonna just,

26:21

you know, we didn't want men.

26:22

It was anti-men.

26:24

Just as reproductive rights is, you know, anti-life.

26:28

So that kind of innuendo and casting aspersion

26:33

catches on if you're fearful.

26:38

-

Mhmm.

26:40

Now, almost 25 years later,

26:43

how would you assess where we are now,

26:46

in terms of Feminist theology, inclusive language,

26:48

justice for women?

26:51

-

Well, needless to say, we still have a long way to go.

26:56

I think we got comfortable,

27:00

as I think most movements do.

27:02

We became comfortable.

27:06

We've made a lot of progress,

27:08

but we still have so much further to go.

27:10

Including--

27:13

Are you still there?

27:25

-

Yes, it went call on hold for a minute.

27:26

There you are!

27:28

I don't know what happened!

27:29

-

Yes.

-

Oh, good, I'm glad you're back.

27:30

-

Well, I was getting a call!

27:31

-

Oh, is that what it was?

27:33

Okay.

27:34

-

Yeah.

27:35

-

Okay.

27:36

Oh, now I just see your picture,

27:37

there you are.

27:39

-

There you are, okay.

27:39

(laughter)

27:40

-

Good.

27:41

-

I only have a still shot of you, but--

27:42

-

Oh, really?

27:44

-

Yeah.

27:45

That's really weird, that's all I'm getting of you.

27:47

-

Oh, my goodness.

27:49

-

Anyway.

27:51

I forget where we were.

27:54

-

You were talking about how far--

27:56

We still have a ways to go.

27:59

That we got complacent.

28:01

-

Oh, yeah, yeah.

28:02

Yeah, and I think inclusive language, we came so far,

28:04

and then folks said, "Okay," you know, "This is enough."

28:08

I think there's been somewhat of a slide back.

28:11

And that may be backlash from the whole

28:14

Feminist movement in the church,

28:17

but I do think there's been a slide backwards.

28:19

-

Yeah.

28:21

-

And, I don't--

28:25

-

Oh, Mary?

28:27

-

Yeah, that's me.

28:29

-

Okay.

28:30

-

It's hard to know,

28:31

from my perspective, how much of this is--

28:34

Do you know, the Presbyterian church has now what's called--

28:39

-

The what is it called?

28:45

-

NEXT, N-E-X-T?

28:47

The NEXT Movement,

28:51

which are younger pastors coming along,

28:53

wanting to be about

28:56

the church and theology and all of that

29:01

without a lot of controversy.

29:03

-

Oh.

29:05

-

So, I'm wondering if that's not part of it, too.

29:07

My pastor is part of that movement and

29:09

it's not that she is scared away from

29:14

preaching about tough issues but

29:17

taking any of them to the extreme,

29:20

I think she's not gonna do, so.

29:23

I think she would probably say

29:26

she's doing well with inclusive language.

29:27

Other people, for whom inclusive language really matters,

29:29

think it's awful,

29:33

and I've already told her what I think,

29:36

so I'm not gonna beat the drum.

29:38

I'm retired.

29:41

And I don't, if I'm the only one beating the drum,

29:43

then there's no point.

29:46

Because I'm employed by that church for now,

29:49

and when I'm no longer employed by that church,

29:52

then it may be time to find one

29:55

that fits my language better.

29:58

-

Yes.

30:01

I'm curious, can you see me at all, Mary?

30:03

Did I come back at all?

30:06

-

No, I have a still picture of you in the middle.

30:07

-

I'm sorry.

30:09

I'll just click on this again, it says Turn Off Video,

30:11

I don't wanna do that.

30:14

Well, I'm not sure how to fix it, I'm sorry.

30:16

-

Okay, that's fine.

30:19

-

Could you say a little bit more, if you don't mind,

30:20

about the NEXT movement?

30:22

I guess I don't know about this.

30:23

-

I don't know much about it.

30:25

It's--

30:26

Let me see what I could even

30:28

compare it to.

30:31

I'm not even sure what to compare it to.

30:34

It's like a...

30:36

It's kind of taken hold and,

30:39

since I'm not a part of it,

30:42

I haven't made getting to know it a priority.

30:43

-

Sure.

30:47

-

But I know younger,

30:48

younger, which means just about everybody,

30:50

(laughter)

30:52

younger folks who are in their 40's and 50's,

30:54

and maybe 30's--

30:59

-

Yeah?

31:00

-

Are going to annual meetings of NEXT,

31:01

and it's kind of about the next church

31:07

and what will it, what will the next

31:09

iteration of the Presbyterian church look like?

31:12

-

Mmm.

31:14

-

And, I'm not even sure.

31:16

I think ours is only Presbyterian,

31:18

but I think other denominations also have

31:20

what they call the NEXT church.

31:23

-

Is it anything like the emerging?

31:27

Does emerging sound right?

31:28

Emerging church?

31:30

-

No, emerging is, I think, different--

31:30

-

Different from this, okay.

31:32

Alright, well I'll have to look into it, then,

31:34

'cause I hadn't heard about this.

31:36

That's helpful.

31:38

-

I just know my pastor and the associate,

31:39

both of them were on the board--

31:42

-

Oh.

31:44

Okay.

31:44

-

Of NEXT.

And were kind of planning the meetings.

31:45

I know they get press coverage,

31:49

our own denominational press coverage when they meet,

31:50

and I pay attention to it,

31:55

but nothing startling has happened, so,

31:56

I can't even tell you what comes out of their meetings,

31:59

'cause--

32:01

-

Yes.

32:02

-

Like I say, none of it's all that startling.

32:03

-

Mhm.

32:05

-

So, I guess, I think, where we are,

32:08

is that we've improved a great deal since Re-Imagining.

32:11

Re-Imagining certainly,

32:14

I think, made a lasting effect, in that it's kept--

32:17

We are still talking about it.

32:20

But I think we still have a long way to go,

32:25

before, at least, inclusive language,

32:28

Feminist theology being equal to male theology.

32:32

Mujerista theology is kind of,

32:41

still fighting to get in amongst all of this.

32:43

-

Right, yeah.

32:47

Yeah.

32:48

Well, it sounds like that's what you're saying,

32:49

in terms of what needs to be re-imagined today.

32:51

Would you say that's what needs to be re-imagined?

32:54

-

Yes.

32:57

You bet. You bet.

32:58

-

Yes.

-

Yeah, I think we still are,

33:01

well, I think we also need to re-imagine the whole church,

33:04

the whole denomination,

33:06

and most mainline denominations.

33:08

We all need to re-imagine those.

33:10

We're still operating out of, to a great deal,

33:12

I think, a '50's church culture, still.

33:16

And, you know, we haven't been very creative, I don't think.

33:23

I think that's what NEXT is trying to be,

33:27

is be more creative, and maybe they'll succeed,

33:29

but I think we have not been very creative in,

33:31

what does the church need to look like,

33:36

into the future, to attract anybody,

33:39

to what's going on?

33:43

-

That's interesting, Mary.

33:46

I think I might know what you mean, but just to be sure,

33:47

what do you mean by a '50's church model?

33:49

-

Well, you know, the, sanctuary filled on Sundays,

33:52

Sunday school followed by worship.

33:57

Youth groups.

34:00

The same ol' same ol'.

34:02

Rather than doing more with technology,

34:05

both with kids and with adults.

34:11

Figuring out how the church needs to change.

34:15

Certainly part of it is music.

34:18

I am the least--

34:21

I am not one to talk about how much I love praise music,

34:25

I absolutely do not.

34:27

But there's a whole lot of music.

34:29

For instance, I'm involved with

34:31

our young adult volunteers each year.

34:33

-

Yeah.

34:35

-

And the music that they get going with is wonderful!

34:36

It's good theology, wonderful songs.

34:40

I hear very few of those songs sung in our churches.

34:43

-

Mmm.

34:46

-

They're not in our hymn books.

34:47

So, different music, different instruments.

34:50

Yes, we have guitars on occasion,

34:53

but the organ is still the centerpiece.

34:56

I love the organ,

34:59

but how many 20-year-olds care about

35:00

hearing the organ every Sunday?

35:02

-

Mhmm.

35:04

-

How much we're really

35:06

moving along

35:09

and evolving, I'm not so sure.

35:11

-

Yeah, yeah.

35:14

-

And I'm gonna go kicking and screaming,

35:15

like everybody else.

35:17

(laughter)

35:18

I just know that something has to happen.

35:20

You know, I want my church to stay just as the way it was,

35:24

but that's not gonna work, I know that.

35:27

-

Do you think there's anything from Re-Imagining that

35:30

could go into the future?

35:33

Or do you think it just needs to be re-defined?

35:35

-

Sure!

35:36

-

What kind of things do you think Re-Imagining

35:37

could contribute?

35:38

-

Well, even the way we worshiped,

35:39

again, creative worship.

35:41

Do we have to sit in pews every Sunday morning,

35:43

straight across pews?

35:46

-

Mhmm?

35:48

-

Now, I know other churches are experimenting with that,

35:49

but, primarily, we're all sittin' in pews.

35:52

-

Yes.

35:54

-

You know, different ways to worship,

35:56

and loosen us up, and share a little together.

35:58

I know there are a lot more small-group stuff going on, but,

36:01

more house church stuff.

36:05

-

Yeah.

36:08

-

Really confronting us with different theologies

36:10

and getting us to respond,

36:14

you know, that's, again, primarily done in Sunday school.

36:16

What would happen if some of that stuff was done

36:20

in worship itself, by way of dialogue sermons,

36:22

or moving us into groups in the middle of worship,

36:26

Heaven forbid!

36:28

That kinda stuff.

36:30

-

Mhmm.

Right!

36:31

-

We just don't do that because we're scared.

36:33

I understand that.

36:36

-

Yeah.

What do we think we're scared of?

36:38

-

Change!

36:40

Of course.

36:41

(laughter)

36:42

We're always scared of change.

36:43

-

Yes.

36:45

-

Yes, so.

36:46

I mean, that really is primarily it, I think, is change.

36:48

-

Yes.

36:51

-

We all want things to be familiar.

36:52

-

Right.

36:54

Yep, yep.

36:55

I have one final, specific question for you.

36:57

We're working on a Re-Imagining website,

37:01

and I wondered if you had any thoughts about

37:04

what would be good to include in it,

37:06

how people would find out about it or benefit from it.

37:09

Any thoughts?

37:12

-

Well, worship resources, I think,

37:13

continues to be really needed.

37:15

All kinds of worship resources.

37:18

-

Yes.

37:20

-

I think that's the primary stuff.

37:21

If I wanna read theology,

37:23

I'll grab a book or do something like that.

37:24

-

Right.

37:26

-

But I think good worship resources are harder to come by.

37:27

-

Yes.

37:32

-

And I guess to use networks that we know about

37:35

to get the word out about it, like our--

37:39

I should be able to tell you, Voices of Sophia,

37:43

Prophetic?

37:46

Prophetic Voices?

37:48

No.

37:49

Prophetic, whatever we're called now!

37:50

(laughter)

37:52

Voices of Sophia and the Witherspoon Society is now

37:54

Voices for Justice, or something like that.

37:59

Presbyterian Voices for Justice.

38:02

PV4J, that's it.

38:05

Presbyterian Voices for Justice.

38:06

They use our own networks to get the word out

38:09

about the website as best we can.

38:12

-

Yes.

38:16

Are you okay with me e-mailing you

38:17

when we get it up and running, and--

38:18

So you'll know it's--

38:20

-

Absolutely.

Yep.

38:22

-

It's out there?

Great.

38:22

Good.

38:23

Mary, is there anything that we haven't discussed,

38:25

that you would like to talk about,

38:28

or think needs to be added?

38:29

-

I don't think so, I'm looking at the questions, now.

38:31

-

Mhmm.

38:34

-

Yeah, I don't think so.

38:45

I guess I would just say the fact that

38:50

we're still talking about it.

38:52

That women who went to the conference still talk about it.

38:54

-

Yes.

38:58

-

I live in a retirement community in California.

38:59

A very ecumenical retirement community,

39:03

of which a lot of women went,

39:05

of different denominations went,

39:08

and we're still talking about it.

39:10

-

Oh!

39:11

-

I have kept my worship book.

39:14

I lived in an RV and had to get rid of

39:17

as many things as I could,

39:19

but one thing I hung on to was my

39:22

Re-Imagining worship book.

39:24

-

Wow.

39:26

-

And song book.

39:27

So, I think the fact that we're all very conscious of what,

39:28

the effect it had on us, 'cause it felt so good.

39:33

It was like we were finally included

39:36

in ways we had not been included anywhere else.

39:38

-

Mhmm.

39:41

-

So, it was profoundly meaningful, I,

39:42

I would bet if there were 1300 people there,

39:46

there might have been 10 for whom it wasn't meaningful.

39:49

-

Yes. Yes!

39:51

-

So.

39:55

-

Mhmm.

39:55

-

Yeah.

39:57

-

Well, Mary, I really appreciate it.

39:58

I'm sorry, with the SNAFU with the computer,

40:00

but I think we got through it okay.

40:02

-

I'm sorry I can't see you anymore!

40:03

-

I know! I'm sorry about that!

40:05

It was delightful,

40:07

I'm so glad that Mary Ann Lundy recommended I call you.

40:08

This was just delightful.

40:11

-

Good.

40:12

Thank you, thank you.

40:13

-

I so appreciate it.

-

Good to meet you via Skype!

40:15

-

Yes, you too.

40:16

And I'm just gonna turn things off.

40:18

Kuhns, Mary

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